From nobody Mon Feb 1 03:44:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B7B3A1051 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 03:44:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yl3lzi4565pv for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 03:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay10.mail.gandi.net (relay10.mail.gandi.net [217.70.178.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B49B03A104F for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 03:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from maria (unknown [78.243.124.66]) (Authenticated sender: mailbox@rogerprice.org) by relay10.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39DE7240008 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 11:44:02 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 12:43:56 +0100 (CET) From: Roger Price X-X-Sender: rprice@maria.rogerprice.org To: xml2rfc Mailing List Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) X-Message-Flag: Supplemental report to reaper.nsa.gov. rc=0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc]
in loses data X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: <xml2rfc.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/xml2rfc/> List-Post: <mailto:xml2rfc@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 11:44:09 -0000 I coded <title abbrev="UPS management protocol">Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) Management Protocol <br>Commands and Responses but when I attempted to submit this using https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ I received: Meta-data from the submission ... Title Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) Management Protocol The text after the
has disappeared. Is this what should happen? Roger From nobody Mon Feb 1 04:40:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB803A10FE for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 04:40:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eb88YStCZZsV for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 04:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2C313A10FC for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 04:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:acf1:c447:f5f0:6aa9] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:acf1:c447:f5f0:6aa9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E5FB6600057; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 14:40:23 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1612183223; bh=xrYm/lVqbnVkfn/sVrwDL4QcOYCEdwT6e+L8ygwTtqA=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=kHbB4Zul5CT58HhvCBV8Sntov5mdXFmGCKOhmC90Xmar9CrQk4Thhj3fbRMcPj/Cd NQWBXKQkLrj5m74Anfw8yQtBVwrEk79P9OAePqQjueZfdnwA7VCP+VvKFFm2oXqi1D V9G3a5lWrjzqnVNX3aGR2+RLo50SKcZsQ8sioIbk= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <41D0C73A-9A16-4C2A-B535-AE0FFCD4A50B@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7363A225-C007-483E-A974-D16330BFB9EA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.40.0.2.32\)) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 14:40:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20210130191455.169316D02C27@ary.qy> Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org To: John Levine References: <20210130191455.169316D02C27@ary.qy> X-MailScanner-ID: E5FB6600057.A1E1A X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [xml2rfc-dev] Unicode box-drawing for a new --table-borders value? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 12:40:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7363A225-C007-483E-A974-D16330BFB9EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, On 2021-1-30, at 21:14, John Levine wrote: > The ones that occur to me beyond people's names are math symbols like = a=E2=89=A5b and > words that are sometimes written with accents like co=C3=B6rdinate. = For the math > symbols, I get the impression that people really want TeX style = equation typesetting > which while not impossible, would be a major extension. not only math symbols, but also greek other letters commonly used in = math. +1 for Latex math stuff. Not sure if you saw = https://ntap.github.io/rfc8312bis/draft-eggert-tcpm-rfc8312bis.html, it = uses latex-style math and renders it via tex2svg for HTML or (my fork = of) asciitex for text. > There's also typesetting stuff like =E2=80=9Cquotes=E2=80=9D which we = decided not to > do when this came up before but we might revisit. Yes, and various dashes/spaces would be useful. Lars --Apple-Mail=_7363A225-C007-483E-A974-D16330BFB9EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmAX9rcACgkQVLXDCb9w wVctLg//YmZHATBjoM6fjSYUQ+EKk03WSHL59qm7wyT0l08OHTi9W3rAEYa9Eul+ rxdgUXGdiIttkah7KPyRVV6cUHwJ88Vmh+Wgzt2LKdpOynkuGOmQEP6Lf7rs8qdQ asLbIgSB28+/I9rGIlaxZFZ2uKOMT7vV34EYk//FpCAtY+0dybs3Kncxq9a9HVJN uciIJwefNBR4gynRKDGIoBANuwtrhS2u+4uhcb+AASIMy6EWxzr18wcTZyPHwTE0 8BbeWuU6CJDf5tA/Th1no8p3YJmmWJO96EuskGIuirFdZmNEbWJpu/0MQEIqjqKc Ox5HX/2mn+iFgfkV78xEPctpDvAdPET+m+rmK1YOJSkJbnutHQy7KMTrarIwtl0F IjXFl7cbKSJ8v700x6Lg6FvfF+pFYk6YFpAP1ZFsSWD1BcGd1kj8K2SsotnsLJ2U tJdsIy8duCRhC0MIjrQy4YcT+Q/Gb9InS8cAG8JAe7gayIvRoes/KYs1m8+u/bhL GBpjgja6TcBDjoKTE/U89qHbafrp0HVOxQBTa4lRl/i/AKCdvhDdPC03oiRfGLRb Tmh57kDJRr+CeiEgUKRMBb1GUB5DdNyyIKqkVbNWikdv+dym6ELhwx8IP2SD+937 62QrzDFZCO47HMPc3eoZA3sH0etua54TiJtXIGkjhg2GQxq/TYs= =Wr3b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7363A225-C007-483E-A974-D16330BFB9EA-- From nobody Mon Feb 1 05:12:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0AF3A114B for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 05:12:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hB5TubZTjq2D for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 05:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F15E43A1149 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 05:12:55 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: 78.243.124.66 Received: from maria (unknown [78.243.124.66]) (Authenticated sender: mailbox@rogerprice.org) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6AF2B1C0015 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 13:12:53 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 14:12:52 +0100 (CET) From: Roger Price X-X-Sender: rprice@maria.rogerprice.org To: xml2rfc Mailing List Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) X-Message-Flag: Supplemental report to reaper.nsa.gov. rc=0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc]   unknown in IETF Secretariat ? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 13:12:58 -0000 My XML begins with the declaration Command: FSD <upsname>   ----------------------------------------------------^ Is this because the IETF Secretariat does not have a copy of file rfc2629-xhtml.ent, or is there something else that I have done wrong? Roger From nobody Mon Feb 1 06:03:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0EE3A118D for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:03:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HeSQLL09sAST for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F39F43A0D24 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:03:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1612188183; bh=KvkAahWXxRViVHh6VYp4LzUjZuO73d3CZ+sW0ILvCH4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=YT3F/lV67NmTvNnRojGrLP7bTSJANRRP4iMHB8ObrEGBfH62PalTTCW1UzJJmPxvb /pxx2jXB7rWbl7pyNwAVKYF0chF604bKxfYq3ZzOpUC8YMNLZwfiJIVeZBAkMb2W3/ Ymdi8jiJwvEMbPkhQMrKKO5eNmHv2kmtSP7DFQEM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAfYm-1lDCZj1x16-00B22J for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 15:03:03 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <59bc1222-f5fb-2a47-9afd-6c846dd366a2@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:03:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:9e3d8G+Y7YM4uxjXxwuMvqH2PahtUSwBSnrFhLuMp4TeZtjcZJM pMy3WXUzK3EY4Vs8Y/RzKaRllARqtONKWt9osVRHH6o14ygDBDuzstnUiU6ApZ5zq1Y2/Ax 0KtwxTOjzb1WYeL+IgOZByj9ua8vzRPy4WhtQ6qsRwxXgpl94yEi/YdSpPok4ksqwCccpxI /VRwon45nZPPuQsG7blgg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:pV3YsaHqlLg=:plXZZCPzgIaSW/X7RYKPWu Y7hFQDzfLq2iD9+INn+g5VixlzZEVn4qA4HwRnwLN4G6Ur/1+CCXgKB3kKzZQCMa7SNqQqegq er32UHJQsGhdfl3RHz0lZRSXtee2amuFX/2V8Usgrza+F9P2XFXv8oCEsWpn9+S0Avtkdh1O4 7a0cwGjnbItSTwlzxdKav556bCFBXOZByW6ZKi608TliuzJYcM26feTcxSq0HDpmX5QkyzR5H NwhdUZxWvda0O+By80hceaP6C1FWqS4jxTnp+SsLbt1e6CjTH4ANjuC5p5Koa4dDkMnvTP9WI TqWq7ojy11rGX0rpnFiFcg8f/RaMi76nNLhhS1JXuvfg2a14BNN3KhxL6mcZvyZj6OvPqxloz hee45aG8oGrhlzDG3bdWU6JK150p4Vs0578TgdpM5GFarSkuR9J/Nef/Y4XKQJNLOdPxTuLqI p7lAKk1j2cHO/EKXsOh+nxbdrjJaRmeq5Wcl7zOVWbszt+jk7BmPRi32TeKFCmQcToTVp3PDB trBtIRRRPDcPJjf3p8chItOZrXasxpi/Ma3Xv7f2XdZov0RA18F7DVshcynqDKeqeaQVwyyex ckkj/Qc4pDYTpbX8kGOsZxWflhW5YCePesCoILhbdjf6IPUKaD5CD13gS6mButj2dN9Xjz0rE sqJATrODuEkB9RPO9JHZ0Q5c7Mcay/M/3yMmvqrZEF7adyI8RrAJ8qjKrUHVSRq51slA6Eah+ NCBZwJR6suVv4xSY7kUdwCpUBPpJp3q+HETqpKY3NNyO3X21WyM7dyUoo1iyX64YaUF9FdIp2 uaisNuc59HPiamgzM5UhBhwK3B+s+zmMSRx7nN/zzjRrDSFhVye8pr9tQs8vQhyD2nRtx+qtq ipsObdRSiGPrMCGO2FwQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   unknown in IETF Secretariat ? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 14:03:08 -0000 Am 01.02.2021 um 14:12 schrieb Roger Price: > My XML begins with the declaration > > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > where rfc2629-xhtml.ent provides a definition for  .=C2=A0 These > declarations are present in the expanded XML I submitted.=C2=A0 After th= e > submission, I checked the XML file held by the IETF Secretariat, and > instead of seeing the XML file, I got the error message: > > =C2=A0XML Parsing Error: undefined entity > =C2=A0Location: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rprice-ups-management-protocol-00.= xml > =C2=A0Line Number 390, Column 53:=C2=A0=C2=A0 Command: FSD > <upsname>=C2=A0   > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ----------------------= ------------------------------^ > > Is this because the IETF Secretariat does not have a copy of file > rfc2629-xhtml.ent, or is there something else that I have done wrong? > > Roger Does "check" mean "open in web browser"? In that case it's likely because browsers, when reading XML, do not process external entities (for security reasons). 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Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9958F20478; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: Lars Eggert Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <342339E7-A47C-4C51-8852-7FFBB6A8C750@eggert.org> References: <8735yje4kt.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <342339E7-A47C-4C51-8852-7FFBB6A8C750@eggert.org> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEX+i03xYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdACA4xvL/xI5dHedcnkfViyq84doe8zFRid9jW7CC9XBiI0QQf FgoAgwWCX+i03wWJBZ+mAAMLCQcJEOCS6zpcoQ26RxQAAAAAAB4AIHNhbHRAbm90YXRpb25zLnNl cXVvaWEtcGdwLm9yZ/tr8E9NA10HvcAVlSxnox6z62KXCInWjZaiBIlgX6O5AxUKCAKbAQIeARYh BMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AADZHQD/Zx9nc3N2kj13AUsKMr/7zekBtgfSIGB3hRCU74Su G44A/34Yp6IAkndewLxb1WdRSokycnaCVyrk0nb4imeAYyoPtBc8ZGtnQGZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4u bmV0PojRBBMWCgCDBYJf6LTfBYkFn6YAAwsJBwkQ4JLrOlyhDbpHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3Rh dGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3JnL0Gwxvypz2tu1IPG+yu1zPjkiZwpscsitwrVvzN3bbADFQoI ApsBAh4BFiEEwp+KDAHzXjTYFqpc4JLrOlyhDboAAPkXAP0Z29z7jW+YzLzPTQML4EQLMbkHOfU4 +s+ki81Czt0WqgD/SJ8RyrqDCtEP8+E4ZSR01ysKqh+MUAsTaJlzZjehiQ24MwRf6LTfFgkrBgEE AdpHDwEBB0DkKHOW2kmqfAK461+acQ49gc2Z6VoXMChRqobGP0ubb4kBiAQYFgoBOgWCX+i03wWJ BZ+mAAkQ4JLrOlyhDbpHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3RhdGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3Jnfvo+ nHoxDwaLaJD8XZuXiaqBNZtIGXIypF1udBBRoc0CmwICHgG+oAQZFgoAbwWCX+i03wkQPp1xc3He VlxHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3RhdGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3JnaheiqE7Pfi3Atb3GGTw+ jFcBGOaobgzEJrhEuFpXREEWIQQttUkcnfDcj0MoY88+nXFzcd5WXAAAvrsBAIJ5sBg8Udocv25N stN/zWOiYpnjjvOjVMLH4fV3pWE1AP9T6hzHz7hRnAA8d01vqoxOlQ3O6cb/kFYAjqx3oMXSBhYh BMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AADX7gD/b83VObe14xrNP8xcltRrBZF5OE1rQSPkMNy+eWpk eCwA/1hxiS8ZxL5/elNjXiWuHXEvUGnRoVj745Vl48sZPVYMuDgEX+i03xIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEH QIGex1WZbH6xhUBve5mblScGYU+Y8QJOomXH+rr5tMsMAwEICYjJBBgWCgB7BYJf6LTfBYkFn6YA CRDgkus6XKENukcUAAAAAAAeACBzYWx0QG5vdGF0aW9ucy5zZXF1b2lhLXBncC5vcmcEAx9vTD3b J0SXkhvcRcCr6uIDJwic3KFKxkH1m4QW0QKbDAIeARYhBMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AAAX mwD8CWmukxwskU82RZLMk5fm1wCgMB5z8dA50KLw3rgsCykBAKg1w/Y7XpBS3SlXEegIg1K1e6dR fRxL7Z37WZXoH8AH Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:06:38 -0500 Message-ID: <87lfcacstt.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [xml2rfc-dev] Unicode box-drawing for a new --table-borders value? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 14:38:38 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain On Sat 2021-01-30 07:22:43 +0200, Lars Eggert wrote: > I think that would be excellent, but AFAIK Unicode can (still) only be > used in contact names (see the recent "Unicode in xml2rfc v3" thread > over on rfc-interest@). I really hope we can just get to an agreement > to allow Unicode anywhere in the document. whoops, i've been using unicode (in particular, the box-drawing characters and a few fancy arrows) to pretty good effect (imho) in several I-Ds already, for example: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-dkg-lamps-e2e-mail-guidance-00.html#name-multilayer-cryptographic-en That document would be much harder to read and understand (and probably much longer) without the compact representations of MIME message structure. Reading the thread you reference suggests that those characters are probably acceptable within an "artwork" or verbatim block, but maybe not in the regular text. That would mean unicode *can* show up in other places in the .txt versions of the RFC, which is the only context where --table-borders really matters, afaict. So it seems like the constraints on unicode in the normal text shouldn't be any formal problem with the .txt translation. Does that seem like a plausible analysis? Hopefully this change would just be a "simple matter of programming" in xml2rfc itself, and not some sort of policy quagmire. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQttUkcnfDcj0MoY88+nXFzcd5WXAUCYBWEEAAKCRA+nXFzcd5W XIe+AQC3ZrafiZimeZKtbBNelCZVCago7KL0MVYNt7+0TIjh1QD/aU3yyecDUuUv wmoGeQx7P7rLH9G2GluZwwxvXqMZyQw= =nTeO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 1 06:53:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBF23A11EE; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:53:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D4Lg-XD35rpU; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBA3A3A11ED; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:acf1:c447:f5f0:6aa9] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:acf1:c447:f5f0:6aa9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26F2F600057; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:53:34 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1612191214; bh=FEFoWdQZTedqCJULJ1Fa9sk8UH98YULZLT6C4MF3KzM=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=xqdWK1rG9gWO9ugIezOlMzTSnew+FWQ+gnioOL1YSEcLTjYO0agJPNlgOTBijV5/5 rciL4HHreEWkmis6PmlRD0NBcta4llm/qEYAvUCXfG0rTQ1SBJVPXlZw5/iIbWuiyV HzpD0rqkkb1RXHZ0zX4FhR/p3VJ6aK2GlEthWfPM= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <450E303F-B4E3-451E-B1BC-FA92DBC29063@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9EA3E781-9965-4768-B3E3-EDD94B82B541"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.40.0.2.32\)) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:53:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87lfcacstt.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor References: <8735yje4kt.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <342339E7-A47C-4C51-8852-7FFBB6A8C750@eggert.org> <87lfcacstt.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> X-MailScanner-ID: 26F2F600057.AF294 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [xml2rfc-dev] Unicode box-drawing for a new --table-borders value? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 14:53:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9EA3E781-9965-4768-B3E3-EDD94B82B541 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2021-1-30, at 18:06, Daniel Kahn Gillmor = wrote: > On Sat 2021-01-30 07:22:43 +0200, Lars Eggert wrote: >> I think that would be excellent, but AFAIK Unicode can (still) only = be >> used in contact names (see the recent "Unicode in xml2rfc v3" thread >> over on rfc-interest@). I really hope we can just get to an agreement >> to allow Unicode anywhere in the document. >=20 > whoops, i've been using unicode (in particular, the box-drawing > characters and a few fancy arrows) to pretty good effect (imho) in > several I-Ds already, for example: >=20 > = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-dkg-lamps-e2e-mail-guidance-00.html#= name-multilayer-cryptographic-en Ah! You're right, in artwork, there is no issue. I was trying to use Unicode in the text, which has the restriction I = mentioned. Lars --Apple-Mail=_9EA3E781-9965-4768-B3E3-EDD94B82B541 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmAYFe0ACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcvehAAt0a3dG9LDkQ8GMEN9PJaEN/p5bhQRLQCm/wzBfKgfvvKdPjh5b/SS6U6 dI2goNzX9Z+94FB5umWOUm/VbZkg01orodw+7faSh68EAgU9wfOmTh2B/xuLtn95 Eaqb+yOuIKW2Tk3qxWS0NE4lLjICCUjV0aaK4UNLgZkV+VK8EEJQKR1MsBgWUaUQ v2V7xD8lYm6Nw7CLg+nQsX4qK05wqA76HjNyyBZQeZ15Dm9YyFOa+A9PvxE2EDGr 2QESeJSfyLt+6f82NA/hcmbgZjMjH337Zt7X//sja1NRybbTcsGd+TWAUXKbOMAl 2ANXaP8LUG4d1AMV3lssNNZGtnAihtTWCvor0pI+SfUvvdAtDDrDDCINM6ucWHes 604kWm3HPhlC8lAzebYujD/XdNRm8P1YKF750+y5oM2IajdHeiJ935YYzMjiLkAS 6bPfdqsnM+sNrOTKHppazCzOVgOBFFADNwbWgjYYZbbOzFQqKfyOlJuNaRoops0b QmOtQYBaS20RA9jRsdvviZLqofb6hSdQPWOlw6PL0+8l/aHJbSMi+FXlawuKBXmS QVw62VzOR/IgnswQpzGXtRvj+x9vFTYijFnk6ZY7n5JfTbbu+OtPDqB0Pn10PI2K PgzYmP0WO0pbPGhcpV1KXYpSE27YRPpqb3R/dNcrHO1eesLJc1U= =mcfY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9EA3E781-9965-4768-B3E3-EDD94B82B541-- From nobody Mon Feb 1 07:01:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6544C3A11F4; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 07:01:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ef4r9vcZ3omA; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 07:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08DFC3A11F2; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 07:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DTrk46f2Rz10Bg; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:01:16 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <87lfcacstt.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:01:16 +0100 Cc: Lars Eggert , xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 633884476.273326-5ca77b8bed33e332fc3da64802d6fe2b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <8735yje4kt.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <342339E7-A47C-4C51-8852-7FFBB6A8C750@eggert.org> <87lfcacstt.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [xml2rfc-dev] Unicode box-drawing for a new --table-borders value? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 15:01:22 -0000 On 2021-01-30, at 17:06, Daniel Kahn Gillmor = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > On Sat 2021-01-30 07:22:43 +0200, Lars Eggert wrote: >> I think that would be excellent, but AFAIK Unicode can (still) only = be >> used in contact names (see the recent "Unicode in xml2rfc v3" thread >> over on rfc-interest@). I really hope we can just get to an agreement >> to allow Unicode anywhere in the document. >=20 > whoops, i've been using unicode (in particular, the box-drawing > characters and a few fancy arrows) to pretty good effect (imho) in > several I-Ds already, for example: >=20 > = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-dkg-lamps-e2e-mail-guidance-00.html#= name-multilayer-cryptographic-en >=20 > That document would be much harder to read and understand (and = probably > much longer) without the compact representations of MIME message > structure. >=20 > Reading the thread you reference suggests that those characters are > probably acceptable within an "artwork" or verbatim block, but maybe = not > in the regular text. That is how xml2rfc is currently programmed. This is fine for box-drawing, but not so great for =CE=B1 and =CE=B2, = which need to be referenceable in the text. (A quick fix to get a preview of what will be possible with an updated = policy is in http://www.tzi.de/~cabo/contact-hack.sh =E2=80=94 you can = simply reinstall xml2rfc if that screws up things for you. This fix is = necessary to build Lars=E2=80=99s 8132bis draft.) > That would mean unicode *can* show up in other places in the .txt > versions of the RFC, which is the only context where --table-borders > really matters, afaict. So it seems like the constraints on unicode = in > the normal text shouldn't be any formal problem with the .txt > translation. Does that seem like a plausible analysis? >=20 > Hopefully this change would just be a "simple matter of programming" = in > xml2rfc itself, and not some sort of policy quagmire. I don=E2=80=99t think there is a change needed to support the artwork in = the above-mentioned draft. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 1 08:28:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B76E3A10E9 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:28:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PP3ZLPeR9KrV for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11.mail.gandi.net (relay11.mail.gandi.net [217.70.178.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5AC83A1073 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from maria (unknown [78.243.124.66]) (Authenticated sender: mailbox@rogerprice.org) by relay11.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DE96100003 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:27:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:27:47 +0100 (CET) From: Roger Price X-X-Sender: rprice@maria.rogerprice.org To: xml2rfc Mailing List In-Reply-To: <59bc1222-f5fb-2a47-9afd-6c846dd366a2@gmx.de> Message-ID: References: <59bc1222-f5fb-2a47-9afd-6c846dd366a2@gmx.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) X-Message-Flag: Supplemental report to reaper.nsa.gov. rc=0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="-636875520-42488623-1612196870=:6375" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   unknown in IETF Secretariat ? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 16:28:04 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---636875520-42488623-1612196870=:6375 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 1 Feb 2021, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 01.02.2021 um 14:12 schrieb Roger Price: >> ..., I checked the XML file held by the IETF Secretariat, and >> instead of seeing the XML file, I got the error message: >> >>  XML Parsing Error: undefined entity >>  Location: >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rprice-ups-management-protocol-00.xml >>  Line Number 390, Column 53:   Command: FSD >> <upsname>    >>                      ----------------------------------------------------^ > > Does "check" mean "open in web browser"? Yes, I naïvely expected to see the source code I had submitted. I will not click on that button again. 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Mon, 1 Feb 2021 11:34:33 -0500 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210130190821.7504E6D02AD4@ary.qy> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <9739f26c-30d2-7b04-e866-b556c05ce07a@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 11:34:32 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: f55fe4dc-5498-4247-2683-08d8c6cf422c X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DM6PR12MB4827: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: RqF7X2Lu0JQj/lAifUKNqhw//P4UZlu0/NoqprarTChqMPa76ThVeW1kxVN+tcmpDcja/pP2ALX6OSW6F+o9obM2GZhvw54krebR31shPTnfoWYyTWmqGOWEiXYOYdCUNPsH2kI6YpKVzoENVUy1ibfD22QtFzjfSggmBIHZTPUgY0vhtJccemJhN8jd8/llawlpIbNtJ3Ov/2UGOMDI1898icwYf9OVnOrYPCqIiycR9texq5yuVakE7QAxB2Oi1I6WsIRaa07vAqh7FqL3ulcuVG/e6vW+VQRp44C8h/plVl+gUJTUOybDr2J/0V4SrN7YTIdXQ2iyC6V14pQsTAMwTeRLkShkb74XOEtQ2oC/smVovKpptHptbXd32OUK1KKXHwwsSszk+3Jn9vv5pBjPp0bsNXfDis23RTxpFD7vQZa0mtyztEEIGaxAxwGzHTCc2g8ieRFv7mBRDSRjl7Y7e/sGt7xwki2dBWdeVU9PiIARiTvOlYi3WHYIpL4L2yuFVIhj8KyVHIbpvna2OFsBqM9a/KorGVR3ftJIAgQYoDBES+6OBc/l7UtTxfDMsVoTPn1OdWKwVwFGYllx6xVPrEegPGA+Bj9GqDmNc9NVcI0A9TsT1VDHbfRquxvO X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(376002)(39860400002)(136003)(396003)(346002)(46966006)(316002)(53546011)(83380400001)(31696002)(2616005)(786003)(336012)(70586007)(956004)(6916009)(82310400003)(36906005)(70206006)(2906002)(186003)(7596003)(31686004)(478600001)(8936002)(47076005)(86362001)(82740400003)(356005)(5660300002)(75432002)(8676002)(26005)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2021 16:34:34.3065 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f55fe4dc-5498-4247-2683-08d8c6cf422c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL2NAM02FT006.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR12MB4827 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Insufficiency of txt format X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 16:34:39 -0000 On 1/31/21 9:35 PM, John Levine wrote: > In article , > Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> Of more concern, AFAIK the only reasonable diff tools work on the txt >> version. IIRC there was once talk of creating a diff tool that worked on >> the xml, but I haven't heard of any such thing materialized. > > Jim Schaad was working on it, but the stuff he wrote wasn't close to done. > >> I think >> that would present great challenges, especially if the xml is >> aesthetically revised while preserving the look. And I would still want >> to see the diff results in side-by-side form. Also that won't work when >> one of the versions being diffed predates v3 xml. > > I agree there's no plausible way to do XML diffs on documents using > different XML vocabularies, but eventually v2 will die out. Our > tooling is a problem and we underestimated what we'd need beyond > xml2rfc to create a productive v3 xml environment. I'll be dead before v2 xml is. I worked on rfc4566bis for a long time, and it was just published as rfc8866. Is is very informative to look at the diff between the two. And the txt diff will remain an important tool as long as there are pre-v3 documents that get bis versions. >> The only way I have seen to reasonably manage differences in documents >> with fancier formatting is with change history, such as provided by >> MSWord. We clearly don't have that with v3 xml. > > Well, we do if we store them in github but that's its own can of worms. That will only show the changes in the xml. That isn't generally what I want to see when reviewing a new revision of a document. The side-by-side txt diff usually gives me exactly what I want to see when commenting on a new version. It would be nice if I could get comparable functionality between html or pdf renderings of the document, but I can't imagine how that would work. (Hopefully this is just a statement about my lack of imagination.) Thanks, Paul From nobody Mon Feb 1 09:21:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3163A1326 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:21:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1EQoHj2J2GZm for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1C4E3A131C for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DTvqj5V0bzyVL; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 18:21:21 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <9739f26c-30d2-7b04-e866-b556c05ce07a@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 18:21:21 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 633892881.2364531-8a3bd9a6a9520d2018429d13157db0d9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <153F2EFE-0450-463C-B9D2-3601CD2F4E4E@tzi.org> References: <20210130190821.7504E6D02AD4@ary.qy> <9739f26c-30d2-7b04-e866-b556c05ce07a@alum.mit.edu> To: Paul Kyzivat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Insufficiency of txt format X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:21:26 -0000 On 2021-02-01, at 17:34, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >=20 > I'll be dead before v2 xml is. I hope not, but this is an indication of the timelines we have to think = in here. Also, our documents have drawn-out timelines, during which the = authoring-format-du-jour will change (as will even the =E2=80=9Ccanonical=E2= =80=9D format). So txt-level comparison needs to be part of any sustainable long-term = strategy. The interesting part here is normalization. Rfcdiff has been = normalizing the txt all along by removing footers and headers. It could = add normalization steps such as turning box-drawing characters into = legacy ASCII. If thinking about the comparison story is part of the = strategy, such a presentation change could become invisible to = long-timespan diffs. Doing XML-level comparison could be aided by converting to a format such = as Pyx (line-based ESIS representation) first. Again, further = normalization is crucial (as we have seen in the example of random = attribute order already). The most ugly part here is likely to be = white-space handling, which is a very sorry story for XML in general, = but could be handled in a schema-driven way for RFCXML. Also, = preptool-generated attributes could be removed in the normalization (but = they also can carry useful information). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 1 09:41:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF203A1343 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:41:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E9EOQCuS_Ld1 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AF093A1342 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DTwGR1V1SzyXl; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 18:41:03 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <153F2EFE-0450-463C-B9D2-3601CD2F4E4E@tzi.org> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 18:41:02 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 633894062.6728131-70244e25bbaea812cd3b7fe29bc12b6b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3CE5C20E-1542-472C-AF7F-7A68C06F2CBE@tzi.org> References: <20210130190821.7504E6D02AD4@ary.qy> <9739f26c-30d2-7b04-e866-b556c05ce07a@alum.mit.edu> <153F2EFE-0450-463C-B9D2-3601CD2F4E4E@tzi.org> To: xml2rfc Mailing List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc] xml:space in v3.rnc (Re: Insufficiency of txt format) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:41:08 -0000 On 2021-02-01, at 18:21, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > white-space handling And while we are talking about this: What the [insert Unicode characters here] is the story behind the two = occurrences of xml:space in v3.rnc. spanx =3D element spanx { [=E2=80=A6] [ a:defaultValue =3D "preserve" ] attribute xml:space { "default" | "preserve" }?, So, for a (legacy) specifically, xml:space defaults to = =E2=80=9Cpreserve=E2=80=9D. For artwork: artwork =3D element artwork { [=E2=80=A6] attribute xml:space { text }?, =E2=80=A6 it is allowed to set xml:space to any value (invalid in XML), = but there is no default. Also, xml:space is not allowed for = . Contrast this to v2.rnc: spanx =3D element spanx { [ a:defaultValue =3D "preserve" ] attribute xml:space { "default" | "preserve" }?, So this is unchanged in v3 from v2. artwork =3D element artwork { [ a:defaultValue =3D "preserve" ] attribute xml:space { "default" | "preserve" }?, =E2=80=A6 makes sense if you think that xml:space is going to be useful = at all. This was discussed in = , but apart from agreeing that xml:space is useless, not much light = has been generated. There are a few more mentions further in history that I can find, but = none of them really discussed how the situation of just and = using xml:space and the v3 weirdness around this occurred. RFC 7991 says: o Deprecate the "xml:space" attribute in because there was only one useful value. [=E2=80=A6] =E2=80=A6 and dutifully notes the above change in the RNC diff. =20 Er, since only one value is useful, we allow any value and then let the = default lapse to the non-useful one? Most likely, there is no reason (because nothing actually is using this = attribute), so this can be cleaned up, but I sure would like to know if = there is. Should an authoring tool generate any of these? (There is also the SVG issue, which I=E2=80=99ll pass now.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 1 10:25:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C23A3A13DA for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 10:25:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xKDV9o9_FCUG for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 10:25:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 226D93A13DF for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 10:25:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1612203902; bh=pJDiensliTRdKatZqXA15l2zdE5kxTmIlRj09s3S2wk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MqQregqJ61NHFcj9cfAPA53qcZi3eWt8TWDaqkG+ACux7ibkBPQ/dEEepf+AMaWJ9 +a/Pvn1Bzwq3wWAkamG+gGqKQxGdl/AlaHht8ArqWbR71SEVuZUGxxR+v7DeXMJm6h qd35b4uSJTvrqyPnTeKG2/v95DP1EtcJ99HXNCPo= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.151.220]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MSt8Q-1lWSS810xi-00UFhz for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 19:25:02 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210130190821.7504E6D02AD4@ary.qy> <9739f26c-30d2-7b04-e866-b556c05ce07a@alum.mit.edu> <153F2EFE-0450-463C-B9D2-3601CD2F4E4E@tzi.org> <3CE5C20E-1542-472C-AF7F-7A68C06F2CBE@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <6033bf9c-29de-0916-3790-1b3224d15c95@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 19:25:01 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3CE5C20E-1542-472C-AF7F-7A68C06F2CBE@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vtqfzQy7GSfBVaavDYoiR2tkkeDKo7MAsPQ6MV0s7K1XjuRdZ+2 r7f27ZNbZ5/R2qhEXMRTb07zM7aIuPz/gstpRhhPPaRlKPI+q/0sDyBawMxkgnEtSaLdMV2 U643cD3vh/NP4ugOKPY2lZ1aGcV5QmhxWHmtrCvOR1RuTuglSIcUUd5rEny/XM43BX/dnrl ugLSfqMnZW8OZP8FxTMqw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:oHDbvgPpUd8=:h8FiJrFrRqeuBzgYtkZtMZ 7wDsDd6rtN4yYmBwVC1634286DM7iygljk894vcDBRAX+5Uao4Br28ZdswpKcAkvq3wuX8BfA Ieg/sXkc2HG0xaMUWbTyrdjJoq4qcWWD7OwNkrrT7smPifEFTnSzdquGhizMCWsijV3WuYJiR yB4JmPanhSn/TTUwQ9o7Pd4rdFooAuER3xZbvFZYKfVMqRyiM0U46NxpBfuBno4TjWRSTkX1r P4U94imofGbj5tIbOV0ibrfv0fRAheE4cFY3qZLTr960zpJUTc1ebKbDGa7vMvxfQ1Xa+7HPX RD+jpT5xoMml8EjwJdwcUq9tiCZghCYXl4gJBJ2bJBPY5mAcHgbtTb6u77KfLvAFkA71UGA34 esmMUXoyYDH1qvVk3MRCmN0hoKTPO9tHAV9ciDB0w72bZEVrvUxyteagIhqu/DzzGPoVvMzQT m1iHS2pV+mgIkq1mtk5nFV/zzMA11Z1808k3JTKlmo7KZYuqFIc0xuqCP2AWZdm0nD85J3oOh GzO86+5sgWbT6oLdrjurW22kanbekPCbEM0THptX/6WUIpd1AJn3vPWKWvB3FSHLUw9dBZTvn YkMb+nZddtfKiddA/d0LKJmqlJbLJv1Vgc+xDBeDqXf7+uid5RvnvmnLOG9weit6XV2RMeQqX 9TQ26e3rNteoZEZyRkQ99RBKPIccrHaqeK916nO5Ensog1uDCQFUoMv2IIjEQFLCNiKzPaRY/ r4e9A/vQ3cpPyuFOjPYxhQp8T151xpI0bclWcudsJAgWf9/y93LRR1ulwcqbtNIlSeOiWgRa3 1GWHnAnJVlgnFUNv5cP+JJ24SSJJH1aKyFOtB5zauSqqUuK7dcEHbM476e9vAOZkzxLl7qIzv JzNuMDzpJI0wDvM8SsTw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] xml:space in v3.rnc (Re: Insufficiency of txt format) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 18:25:15 -0000 Am 01.02.2021 um 18:41 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > ... > =E2=80=A6 and dutifully notes the above change in the RNC diff. > Er, since only one value is useful, we allow any value and then let the = default lapse to the non-useful one? > ... Looks like a bug to me. 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Mon, 1 Feb 2021 14:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5BA51201FA; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 14:01:36 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: Anders Rundgren , John Levine , xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <542852db-f30a-01fe-3c16-93b6c8f27d34@gmail.com> References: <20210130190821.7504E6D02AD4@ary.qy> <87im7dd0tc.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <542852db-f30a-01fe-3c16-93b6c8f27d34@gmail.com> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEX+i03xYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdACA4xvL/xI5dHedcnkfViyq84doe8zFRid9jW7CC9XBiI0QQf FgoAgwWCX+i03wWJBZ+mAAMLCQcJEOCS6zpcoQ26RxQAAAAAAB4AIHNhbHRAbm90YXRpb25zLnNl cXVvaWEtcGdwLm9yZ/tr8E9NA10HvcAVlSxnox6z62KXCInWjZaiBIlgX6O5AxUKCAKbAQIeARYh BMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AADZHQD/Zx9nc3N2kj13AUsKMr/7zekBtgfSIGB3hRCU74Su G44A/34Yp6IAkndewLxb1WdRSokycnaCVyrk0nb4imeAYyoPtBc8ZGtnQGZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4u bmV0PojRBBMWCgCDBYJf6LTfBYkFn6YAAwsJBwkQ4JLrOlyhDbpHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3Rh dGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3JnL0Gwxvypz2tu1IPG+yu1zPjkiZwpscsitwrVvzN3bbADFQoI ApsBAh4BFiEEwp+KDAHzXjTYFqpc4JLrOlyhDboAAPkXAP0Z29z7jW+YzLzPTQML4EQLMbkHOfU4 +s+ki81Czt0WqgD/SJ8RyrqDCtEP8+E4ZSR01ysKqh+MUAsTaJlzZjehiQ24MwRf6LTfFgkrBgEE AdpHDwEBB0DkKHOW2kmqfAK461+acQ49gc2Z6VoXMChRqobGP0ubb4kBiAQYFgoBOgWCX+i03wWJ BZ+mAAkQ4JLrOlyhDbpHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3RhdGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3Jnfvo+ nHoxDwaLaJD8XZuXiaqBNZtIGXIypF1udBBRoc0CmwICHgG+oAQZFgoAbwWCX+i03wkQPp1xc3He VlxHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3RhdGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3JnaheiqE7Pfi3Atb3GGTw+ jFcBGOaobgzEJrhEuFpXREEWIQQttUkcnfDcj0MoY88+nXFzcd5WXAAAvrsBAIJ5sBg8Udocv25N stN/zWOiYpnjjvOjVMLH4fV3pWE1AP9T6hzHz7hRnAA8d01vqoxOlQ3O6cb/kFYAjqx3oMXSBhYh BMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AADX7gD/b83VObe14xrNP8xcltRrBZF5OE1rQSPkMNy+eWpk eCwA/1hxiS8ZxL5/elNjXiWuHXEvUGnRoVj745Vl48sZPVYMuDgEX+i03xIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEH QIGex1WZbH6xhUBve5mblScGYU+Y8QJOomXH+rr5tMsMAwEICYjJBBgWCgB7BYJf6LTfBYkFn6YA CRDgkus6XKENukcUAAAAAAAeACBzYWx0QG5vdGF0aW9ucy5zZXF1b2lhLXBncC5vcmcEAx9vTD3b J0SXkhvcRcCr6uIDJwic3KFKxkH1m4QW0QKbDAIeARYhBMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AAAX mwD8CWmukxwskU82RZLMk5fm1wCgMB5z8dA50KLw3rgsCykBAKg1w/Y7XpBS3SlXEegIg1K1e6dR fRxL7Z37WZXoH8AH Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 14:01:35 -0500 Message-ID: <877dnrd33k.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Unicode box-drawing for a new --table-borders value? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 19:01:44 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain On Sun 2021-01-31 16:22:41 +0100, Anders Rundgren wrote: > I actually did this by creating a table as ascii-art but unfortunately > the box-characters didn't always follow the monospace scheme so I had to > revert to the standard table. > > Here it is BTW: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rundgren-json-canonicalization-scheme-09#appendix-B > > It doesn't look OK on Android. I can confirm that both Chromium and Tor Browser appear to misrender the box drawing characters on an Android-derived (https://calyxos.org/) device I got a chance to look at. This is presumably a font rendering issue, probably something comparable to https://bugs.debian.org/981577, which i just reported on Debian. I've reported the issue to CalyxOS as well: https://gitlab.com/CalyxOS/calyxos/-/issues/334 If this is a problem for you on a platform that you care about, please report it to them. Feel free to use https://dkg.fifthhorseman.net/table.txt as a reference for any bug report -- i'll leave it up. In the meantime, though, we shouldn't avoid using standard, well-defined characters just because some font rendering paths screw them up. those are bugs that should be fixed in the appropriate places. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQttUkcnfDcj0MoY88+nXFzcd5WXAUCYBhQEAAKCRA+nXFzcd5W XJPDAP9hhl0zgP53XLLhE9miaei8+0F0707Py186oU+KcyXzMgD9Eh8TDiotQMQU E0nRrevqMG2tpGtJDnUpOGJmAuYotQ0= =3d8g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 1 15:35:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04443A1597 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:35:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(396003)(136003)(39860400002)(376002)(346002)(46966006)(36840700001)(2616005)(336012)(7596003)(70586007)(70206006)(82310400003)(82740400003)(186003)(31686004)(26005)(4744005)(8936002)(36906005)(75432002)(86362001)(6916009)(47076005)(3480700007)(956004)(966005)(83380400001)(2906002)(356005)(5660300002)(478600001)(8676002)(31696002)(786003)(36860700001)(316002)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2021 23:35:45.9939 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cb4f25eb-5eee-405e-28ee-08d8c70a1945 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL2NAM02FT029.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR12MB2752 Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc] HTMLized format has changed! X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 23:35:50 -0000 I notice today that HTMLized format has degraded from what it used to be. (I noticed this with https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8866.) I haven't extensively studied it, but what I notice is that the TOC is no longer hot linked to the corresponding sections of the text. Is this an accident? Can it please be fixed? Thanks, Paul From nobody Mon Feb 1 16:24:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0513A15DE for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:24:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PNrqWLsNYAFq for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EA213A15F2 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DV5Ct2kjTzyRB; Tue, 2 Feb 2021 01:24:26 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <14327135-76c7-98c4-023b-a47991d1cc2d@alum.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 01:24:27 +0100 Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 633918267.784568-b962aa29c7aac209004c5d516c683f40 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <900B2645-6BE6-482F-AF35-6B8DBA1D4D74@tzi.org> References: <14327135-76c7-98c4-023b-a47991d1cc2d@alum.mit.edu> To: Paul Kyzivat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] HTMLized format has changed! X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 00:24:35 -0000 On 2021-02-02, at 00:35, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >=20 > I notice today that HTMLized format has degraded from what it used to = be. (I noticed this with https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8866.) I haven't = extensively studied it, but what I notice is that the TOC is no longer = hot linked to the corresponding sections of the text. The TOC detector of the HTMLizer was killed by removing the page numbers = from V3 .TXT RFCs. So you will see this from RFC8650 onward. > Is this an accident? Can it please be fixed? It is a =E2=80=9Csmall matter of programming=E2=80=9D :-) But there is the cognitive dissonance of fixing an htmlizer when V3 has = such a wonderful .HTML output. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 1 17:36:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4606A3A1659 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:36:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qeZAI6L4SMFH for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04BD93A1654 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id e19so13250088pfh.6 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:36:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ncUhkRyLR7EDCOm48NdO0kuXq+OnN4n4S5PPYpEbWEE=; b=IjyBzioikWNcTVXr+l7XqMSBB1A4Zj+U3aQYT3C/7wx4WRssB9PupH3qwIKNyAYM0A uN1xb0XaxrCTb3A1Vg2k+xO+dmx4O+XGdZp1T67ooj96WGCPUV9fv3Ir7C3rpAAPr4hq Eo7sLtEnllIF8fYfiGEuoIng5n2fuEdrod3UwoHJjycyIS5Inkg69b/1JGt1xlLomcf+ mspzLjC3nG8o7IfNmkZNGUB7igZPDllYJGDbjSVBHuUBCkFMovL9akUYsEG6Hd1uey56 e503U+RsU5SotWFiA+yiKssoYBXobvZtumM1eRLcKPV6CTCVEASh+PPHjBT0APIMXkg+ vSog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ncUhkRyLR7EDCOm48NdO0kuXq+OnN4n4S5PPYpEbWEE=; b=icqUuOjzIdKclCuWRENrNRgnUK1Jx1v2pAHrY9umfO3kHOkV8Hqz4s26QHiXYXm1Bm tZ2LVo2/22Rh9iFLFNY8kJtdA6xgOoJah3sBj5yJoW0UnozuqpRrRRajMGjlmqJ7dXcV ii5M2NguwE+XKYpvsW5scwSk+q4xsICtRUq8vMEb88ObgXBkmIRSG5jr+iW7EcAhzY9W 7iKCqLd/7qIhhQ/q5jcP6tl+HUr7AJeN8j3n7QN1LczqAdOyLm4OcvpmIF1DE2B7AaB6 Nt0kK3fEpwZtBExPszJVwSSXMzIADElvGug96n/H1fNYupEos1d5GQOSaGacrgEpDnny rPag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532pnwA8+nlmkueTE/SeelvnXa1+ZVtvlcgyHKhn482T/pR0to0j ov5dlzqd/qWxBbgwXqionejEGmro382UBA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwtWcO6x0i+4tMt0P3H9hsMN6reA8RaUZsGk3YrahRRY/AMtw4+nGgBc+YwshY//eDuWTXZJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:705c:: with SMTP id a28mr20022985pgn.402.1612229797880; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:36:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k5sm18934624pfi.31.2021.02.01.17.36.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:36:37 -0800 (PST) To: Carsten Bormann , Paul Kyzivat Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group References: <14327135-76c7-98c4-023b-a47991d1cc2d@alum.mit.edu> <900B2645-6BE6-482F-AF35-6B8DBA1D4D74@tzi.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 14:36:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <900B2645-6BE6-482F-AF35-6B8DBA1D4D74@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] HTMLized format has changed! X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 01:36:40 -0000 On 02-Feb-21 13:24, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-02-02, at 00:35, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> >> I notice today that HTMLized format has degraded from what it used to = be. (I noticed this with https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8866.) I haven't = extensively studied it, but what I notice is that the TOC is no longer ho= t linked to the corresponding sections of the text. >=20 > The TOC detector of the HTMLizer was killed by removing the page number= s from V3 .TXT RFCs. So you will see this from RFC8650 onward. >=20 >> Is this an accident? Can it please be fixed? >=20 > It is a =E2=80=9Csmall matter of programming=E2=80=9D :-) > But there is the cognitive dissonance of fixing an htmlizer when V3 has= such a wonderful .HTML output. If I was in charge, I'd put priority on the new diff tool for V3. 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Tue, 2 Feb 2021 12:03:34 -0500 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group References: <14327135-76c7-98c4-023b-a47991d1cc2d@alum.mit.edu> <900B2645-6BE6-482F-AF35-6B8DBA1D4D74@tzi.org> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <52c3cb89-c6bd-2711-9bab-3935ab29b5d8@alum.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 12:03:34 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <900B2645-6BE6-482F-AF35-6B8DBA1D4D74@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 10916ffb-16e1-4924-5184-08d8c79c7b26 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: MWHPR12MB1453: X-LD-Processed: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f,ExtAddr,ExtFwd X-MS-Exchange-Transport-Forked: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2021 17:03:36.5838 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 10916ffb-16e1-4924-5184-08d8c79c7b26 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SN1NAM02FT023.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR12MB1453 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] HTMLized format has changed! X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 17:03:45 -0000 On 2/1/21 7:24 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-02-02, at 00:35, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> >> I notice today that HTMLized format has degraded from what it used to be. (I noticed this with https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8866.) I haven't extensively studied it, but what I notice is that the TOC is no longer hot linked to the corresponding sections of the text. > > The TOC detector of the HTMLizer was killed by removing the page numbers from V3 .TXT RFCs. So you will see this from RFC8650 onward. I can see how that could happen. But of course the TOC is still there, just without page numbers, and linkage to the sections is still useful. >> Is this an accident? Can it please be fixed? > > It is a “small matter of programming” :-) > But there is the cognitive dissonance of fixing an htmlizer when V3 has such a wonderful .HTML output. I do like the new html output, and I preferentially use it when just reading or consulting a document. But when I am reviewing document changes, using the rfcdiff tool that works on txt format, and I need to consult more of the document to understand one of the changes I want to look at a version that matches the txt format line-for-line. Of course I could just look at the txt version, but it is harder to navigate. Using an HTMLized version with TOC links is ideal for this. Also, I'll often start on a document from the HTMLized version because it has links at the top to all useful formats as well as the diffs. The new HTMLized version is also deficient in this regard because it doesn't have links to the diffs. (A one click reference to the diffs is very convenient in contrast to using the rfcdiff home page and filling in the names of the docs to be compared.) 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Tue, 2 Feb 2021 12:05:49 -0500 To: Brian E Carpenter , Carsten Bormann Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group References: <14327135-76c7-98c4-023b-a47991d1cc2d@alum.mit.edu> <900B2645-6BE6-482F-AF35-6B8DBA1D4D74@tzi.org> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 12:05:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 6d16d83a-6606-482b-f0b4-08d8c79ccaf7 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: BYAPR12MB2629: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 7rlUWVrPvDXGgz9bODS8R3ANNUVYAKnQ3hAIhKTr7ft84LV5/X6BMafXXDUfXJhuqzBp6y1VgyLI9lc7SYJbNE/30zrxypIPCS5h+eTWujm9QsVW25UM51Tpo2yMZXLNBgu+xSUrTpRWTAuFhYHIiQgyngaIIqnIjymbnfztCo1oan/w3JiS9nKirR4Pd7dPDsnxiNoDiRVdUSu06Z6ciDwiWvl8tAFumWXdJIj9v9KMsaCZofaK98k0gWzXtzVD+UuSXVOxiWAMFVAX6jY1+Tvt0MTcUb4NR8+yrWKUrrvP7s9VQMuHZkonkM/uOzxYmsMffVUiiX0wET81jbtqWe/8J2j5sq7UbCUPTiN+QW6CuIYGLZegErZtIsr3rm0sQE6d54MCjCshiAl5qJeeQHNtA+RkiaGkmz8G3MYHp5s0SV1mGYPXLAaoY1+6tgDoudYCJIWAywQd1WqWJ3TdP7X6b/wpbS7IkKSlk5W1LQdcTSRi00BgphArBCStMxP3FbRUCkWUGrzr9lRvfXTR3/WFxSXtvB9COJJW2r0kQBBIokadYsli8S2grL9eg/PvgQiQ7t1naLDgHVaxfZD1x0XAkqP/2ywwNVQiMIluX1p4POkj8kSNlsiJw36TzTlXIwCtsDpIq0y32Y4A8jN58/BtGZvaAkpxM4QLkt7+7EsEnn2oN0uQu+XSI6+Uq3D+OYTgMN8GIlluQa5SK+3bp8oIB8iKIgDnxj4+le205SEmTFe/Who6+KRH/tcSmpv5EOsJxu1cZMcGTxfmFUeKCg== X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(39860400002)(346002)(396003)(136003)(376002)(46966006)(36840700001)(2906002)(4744005)(5660300002)(7596003)(26005)(8936002)(31686004)(110136005)(786003)(356005)(336012)(966005)(956004)(82310400003)(70206006)(36906005)(31696002)(4326008)(316002)(186003)(8676002)(75432002)(478600001)(86362001)(83380400001)(2616005)(82740400003)(53546011)(47076005)(70586007)(36860700001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2021 17:05:50.5758 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6d16d83a-6606-482b-f0b4-08d8c79ccaf7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL2NAM02FT057.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR12MB2629 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] HTMLized format has changed! X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 17:05:55 -0000 On 2/1/21 8:36 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 02-Feb-21 13:24, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2021-02-02, at 00:35, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>> >>> I notice today that HTMLized format has degraded from what it used to be. (I noticed this with https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8866.) I haven't extensively studied it, but what I notice is that the TOC is no longer hot linked to the corresponding sections of the text. >> >> The TOC detector of the HTMLizer was killed by removing the page numbers from V3 .TXT RFCs. So you will see this from RFC8650 onward. >> >>> Is this an accident? Can it please be fixed? >> >> It is a “small matter of programming” :-) >> But there is the cognitive dissonance of fixing an htmlizer when V3 has such a wonderful .HTML output. > > If I was in charge, I'd put priority on the new diff tool for V3. I would like to have a clear understanding of the functionality and output format proposed for this tool before prioritizing it. Thanks, Paul From nobody Tue Feb 2 09:12:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492BF3A0C6F for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2021 09:12:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wmgAQxDbTffK for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2021 09:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CD803A0C6D for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2021 09:12:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1612285963; bh=2VcepV3dBScgdWoCs5+JAE0wYCvMr7/Lu6vfE06v0p0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=S1qOnx9p4VEQp8eDtjVqmqJixlWGiR8wgTXwFJbV6UqHEXZuBDUTmaWTWRxzDq7HZ Z6n1J2HvOe9iju2lXOT2tMbouDW2+VbCp89oxN9vuNgcZ3u5+HRfaSJ3PrsUcqy6EV /CeXHT/UcKzeA9rc9VzGr8w1zaXxfPdSSLnRUU90= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.152.237]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MuUj2-1lyGdd1IV0-00rUii for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2021 18:12:43 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <14327135-76c7-98c4-023b-a47991d1cc2d@alum.mit.edu> <900B2645-6BE6-482F-AF35-6B8DBA1D4D74@tzi.org> <52c3cb89-c6bd-2711-9bab-3935ab29b5d8@alum.mit.edu> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <2e2a361c-90d2-48ea-72ee-ca7efd7792a5@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 18:12:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <52c3cb89-c6bd-2711-9bab-3935ab29b5d8@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:soTFeL82/vcodICdI3qcna0uphz0QzVUAwalrodJrmP4FHAbPYh coOUNtceqdUH89hqNVlHGykZzbMmAZ5WPr8NraafFClOZWzanaMiwn7UFu4P9/+DPcgJNiC W1rTValw02+w7AmeVygq3+GR7L4N5MDlMUARl1NC6Py3HEbiN2VUWbgjLsMXUKNHz+nneSs N+c2bfJt0j4PLfWiw2X3Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DVB559pjKjA=:H09GtGErnfhf63H4QjXW02 P1oUa/DuaQ9la6kq5kaIjQKAQoklN1oj8YMLwEerxE0YolM2Jk6Er8clBoD8WyxqW23TuLaIP b7ACUUCOk5wW1z7UF8tGfvBdeWWy0PkEaByt+pzxlW3x7s/KCk6n8uuQD6MS34Frmze3Odbvx 8AqxFeuDljxT+jVwhzXK4rBN0iAMTuqL9cV5a0sJyRjMn3ZFwlG4MceALuaaPpzgs19DwiG2n nL7v1uVrzkzq9vd7f6gupG3rofwdTEJsMInMqXUSEdgD4BvpmNjaj7IqVr1a8KpG7JyyvPQu8 uAt+m7x8sPpEQcs0XcYAjtU12Jeu3kgLnHqh+u0bvJRz2JYJICJio+p9xTbGhPcmEfblWHYlq mceClV0OAoaUvkQtKhMn9yHwVQCdUsKYntzplQZ6yDuGJDLGDZKkTE+PIkj1J+zhnmvYrBfdE XtZY2R2fSePVcbDhfVGNA5lrKqcJdhHQ7RK0qH+8IttHvDiqvtwdUwtkDhAmmOjyWFm5ziDP3 k1wclKFMIpkUodyuOZ68MjA91YFsmgGt/8Q7luchB05/2RgckygZSB80SruH0DMpR96IVM8Ac 7C/U1Wa46IAe2AEqx6PvjS1m1+xXcL6ZaasnoZjdlaIcZ9QJBAz5smXULCJPp7kQeSfDBTuq4 aNM5zxEnZw2ErNQTOR035QwhX7z7T5m5wD7yBLsb9aT5uStn6zL2QjMoR0S/3uQ4PIMMY1DgO Cc3mmL2JaXaHT2PDfBBdXsc5jdHDv22gC0GFRiY/IPj+CcmotFludLxgoVFSw9R0cSQQHciXi cWzC/J4CfSgq4g6ska+LoyAOYAe3N7hLJW4YbGjErpi5JuQX/y5E/AGDpZ+6dceVUe10X06Kl /+eFEnNecIAbEfJJKzTg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] HTMLized format has changed! X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 17:12:48 -0000 Am 02.02.2021 um 18:03 schrieb Paul Kyzivat: > On 2/1/21 7:24 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2021-02-02, at 00:35, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>> >>> I notice today that HTMLized format has degraded from what it used to >>> be. (I noticed this with https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8866.) I >>> haven't extensively studied it, but what I notice is that the TOC is >>> no longer hot linked to the corresponding sections of the text. >> >> The TOC detector of the HTMLizer was killed by removing the page >> numbers from V3 .TXT RFCs.=C2=A0 So you will see this from RFC8650 onwa= rd. > > I can see how that could happen. But of course the TOC is still there, > just without page numbers, and linkage to the sections is still useful. > ... Source is over here: . I bet Henrik takes patches. Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Feb 12 10:43:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C205E3A0ACB for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.25, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hd5Ny5YZSSRj for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp14.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp14.apple.com [17.179.253.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1329A3A0AB4 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp14.rno.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp14.rno.apple.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 11CIgHcB019200 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:19 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=from : content-type : mime-version : subject : message-id : date : to; s=20180706; bh=9oqEHuPi7Ug+X4uAaIZkxptz6FgDOere87ei1DZdVao=; b=cEYkENa+T4rqb1FMbO9ufzn3H83anDQele1ZOAmJ3Q/anBSeIawXA2eg2FI21JWgTdkd vB+2xd/ovkf/E7R2ikrAmRY8mfJbxSrj2k/BkGOFyDgs4+fLkOCG1MQy9Qy+CuT4Ln7h ZG+0vR7AxePv/lnCZ4rNYyGXwfT6WwwcWDxACdkXDAfdkQcKEbAjGILZgjvsEZgJttbB vNYiS/NQqNRsYfPnLuNST5pDAhc7YHmt6jlapf8fc79jMJxekt49z3j3JFNZOnLzg6Y5 W0cSY77Ndwo6EKYAX5A3lfnLANYPrFjpm76X/Ad3smfVmm4fzH7/omIDKNZFLwPS4GvD Aw== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp14.rno.apple.com with ESMTP id 36jkuh8uxq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:19 -0800 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.17]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.7.20201203 64bit (built Dec 3 2020)) with ESMTPS id <0QOF00DW9IO7UX40@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com> for xml2rfc@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.7.20201203 64bit (built Dec 3 2020)) id <0QOF00B00INRRY00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com> for xml2rfc@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:19 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 827d2dc74289835954c562e64b1c0212 X-Va-E-CD: 66921a3abf0ba964d9de0114840b8df8 X-Va-R-CD: 17c826eac9ae6ef8c8a1be5a1f7dfad2 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 3b9f7d3b-55b3-48c0-b030-0f367dcdf721 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 827d2dc74289835954c562e64b1c0212 X-V-E-CD: 66921a3abf0ba964d9de0114840b8df8 X-V-R-CD: 17c826eac9ae6ef8c8a1be5a1f7dfad2 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 1323e1d2-84a5-4c5c-b321-9788fde8811e X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.737 definitions=2021-02-12_07:2021-02-12, 2021-02-12 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.11.155.25]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.7.20201203 64bit (built Dec 3 2020)) with ESMTPSA id <0QOF00VC9IO61H00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com> for xml2rfc@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:18 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5B3288E8-09D6-45A8-A2F7-A09D9C4A19E4" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.6\)) Message-id: <9CCDF695-EE8F-4C21-A65C-DE29CA02861A@apple.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:43:18 -0800 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.6) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.737 definitions=2021-02-12_07:2021-02-12, 2021-02-12 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc] Cron job for adding new RFC references? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:43:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5B3288E8-09D6-45A8-A2F7-A09D9C4A19E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello, I was trying to update some references in drafts to recently minted RFC = numbers, and I=E2=80=99m getting failures due to missing xml files. For = example: https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.8942.xml = This RFC came out on Monday, so around four days ago. What=E2=80=99s the = expected cadence of update here? Best, Tommy= --Apple-Mail=_5B3288E8-09D6-45A8-A2F7-A09D9C4A19E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hello,

I was trying to update some references in drafts to recently = minted RFC numbers, and I=E2=80=99m getting failures due to missing xml = files. For example:

https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.= 8942.xml

This RFC came out on Monday, so around four days ago. = What=E2=80=99s the expected cadence of update here?

Best,
Tommy
= --Apple-Mail=_5B3288E8-09D6-45A8-A2F7-A09D9C4A19E4-- From nobody Fri Feb 12 11:56:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE093A0D47; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:55:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2pResQXqsbdn; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B805F3A0D43; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dckkr6bpczyQt; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:55:48 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <9CCDF695-EE8F-4C21-A65C-DE29CA02861A@apple.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:55:48 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc Mailing List , tools-discuss Reply-To: tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9CCDF695-EE8F-4C21-A65C-DE29CA02861A@apple.com> To: Tommy Pauly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Cron job for adding new RFC references? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 19:55:55 -0000 Wrong list, this would be tools-discuss. Over there we are discussing various current glitches with the tools = servers. >=20 > = https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.8942.xml Unfortunately, the data tracker bibxml mechanism that gives us files = like... = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-wang-loops-srv6-binding/xml= =E2=80=A6does not seem to be available for RFCs yet. (Or is it?) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 12 12:00:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2693A0D45; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:59:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s_VlJrnNo0uA; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFD143A0D4B; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DckqW3NLDzyVy; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:59:51 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:59:51 +0100 Cc: Tommy Pauly , xml2rfc Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7706A881-FB1E-41B5-9B90-3A38FAE417D1@tzi.org> References: <9CCDF695-EE8F-4C21-A65C-DE29CA02861A@apple.com> To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [Tools-discuss] Cron job for adding new RFC references? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 19:59:56 -0000 Here we are: https://www.rfc-editor.org/refs/bibxml/reference.RFC.8942.xml Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 12. Feb 2021, at 20:55, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Wrong list, this would be tools-discuss. >=20 > Over there we are discussing various current glitches with the tools = servers. >=20 >>=20 >> = https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.8942.xml >=20 > Unfortunately, the data tracker bibxml mechanism that gives us files = like... >=20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-wang-loops-srv6-binding/xml= >=20 > =E2=80=A6does not seem to be available for RFCs yet. >=20 > (Or is it?) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Fri Feb 12 12:02:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984143A0D74; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:02:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QzFjAo3taRpO; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40B5D3A0E72; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB2F38AE98; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbYWe9PApY1H; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 2603-8000-9603-b513-0dd5-ea1a-27b3-df31.res6.spectrum.com (2603-8000-9603-b513-0dd5-ea1a-27b3-df31.res6.spectrum.com [IPv6:2603:8000:9603:b513:dd5:ea1a:27b3:df31]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 305F138AD75; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:01:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Sandy Ginoza In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:00:47 -0800 Cc: Tommy Pauly , xml2rfc Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <84FC1788-9EDB-42AE-8C99-09DF70E32FBA@amsl.com> References: <9CCDF695-EE8F-4C21-A65C-DE29CA02861A@apple.com> To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Cron job for adding new RFC references? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:02:33 -0000 Hi, For RFCs, you can use these URLs: https://www.rfc-editor.org/refs/bibxml/reference.RFC.8942.xml Thanks, Sandy=20 > On Feb 12, 2021, at 11:55 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Wrong list, this would be tools-discuss. >=20 > Over there we are discussing various current glitches with the tools = servers. >=20 >>=20 >> = https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.8942.xml >=20 > Unfortunately, the data tracker bibxml mechanism that gives us files = like... >=20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-wang-loops-srv6-binding/xml= >=20 > =E2=80=A6does not seem to be available for RFCs yet. >=20 > (Or is it?) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc From nobody Thu Feb 18 12:57:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282593A1864 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:57:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id obK3wuDGWNVt for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11.mail.gandi.net (relay11.mail.gandi.net [217.70.178.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 663253A1863 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from maria (unknown [78.243.124.66]) (Authenticated sender: mailbox@rogerprice.org) by relay11.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 991AF100003 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 20:57:28 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 21:57:27 +0100 (CET) From: Roger Price X-X-Sender: rprice@maria.rogerprice.org To: xml2rfc Mailing List Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) X-Message-Flag: Supplemental report to reaper.nsa.gov. rc=0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc] idnits 2.16.05 finds non-ascii character — X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 20:57:36 -0000 My XML markup includes an — in the . This looks fine in HTML, but idnits 2.16.05 finds non-ascii utf-8 e28084 in the txt file. I fixed the problem by adding the line text = text.replace(u'\u2014', u'-') # Replace — EM DASH with HYPHEN-MINUS to file $PYTHON/site-packages/xml2rfc/writers/text.py immediately before line text = text.replace(u'\u00A0', u' ') Could this be made a permanent change? Perhaps there are other character entities which could profit from such replacement. Roger From nobody Thu Feb 18 13:12:15 2021 Return-Path: <cabo@tzi.org> X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1883B3A1888 for <xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:12:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FCqK87SlPWKm for <xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B8B63A1889 for <xml2rfc@ietf.org>; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DhS882hXgzydN; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:12:08 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.2102182141230.6375@maria.rogerprice.org> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:12:07 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc Mailing List <xml2rfc@ietf.org> X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635375527.851127-ecb6d8bc91ab83b033a4605296719159 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <A233F65B-A17E-4ABF-9AC0-260AF29BC9D6@tzi.org> References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.2102182141230.6375@maria.rogerprice.org> To: Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xml2rfc/mTCly3J4qm7JUC1Y82ossSygtro> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] idnits 2.16.05 finds non-ascii character — X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: <xml2rfc.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/xml2rfc/> List-Post: <mailto:xml2rfc@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 21:12:13 -0000 > On 2021-02-18, at 21:57, Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> wrote: >=20 > My XML markup includes an — in the <title>. =20 Which is rather surprising to me, as it should not be possible according = to the currently prevailing restrictive interpretation of RFC 7997. > This looks fine in HTML, but idnits 2.16.05 finds non-ascii utf-8 = e28084 in the txt file. This is intentional as long as we stick to the above restrictive = interpretation. > I fixed the problem by adding the line >=20 > text =3D text.replace(u'\u2014', u'-') # Replace — EM DASH = with HYPHEN-MINUS >=20 > to file $PYTHON/site-packages/xml2rfc/writers/text.py immediately = before line >=20 > text =3D text.replace(u'\u00A0', u' ') >=20 > Could this be made a permanent change? I hope not. Em-dashes look OK in plaintext. They might be harder to = distinguish from en-dashes or neutral hyphen minus in monospaced fonts.=20= If we do decide we need a surrogate for em-dashes in monospaced = plaintext, that should be ---. (V2 used -- for its ASCIIification, IIRC.) > Perhaps there are other character entities which could profit from = such replacement. There are not too many characters that suffer much from a monospaced = font. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 19 14:14:13 2021 Return-Path: <randy@psg.com> X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65D23A0B62 for <xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:14:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aUKIBh3u7ZCn for <xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18F143A0B59 for <xml2rfc@ietf.org>; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <randy@psg.com>) id 1lDE21-00051Y-6t; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:13:49 +0000 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:13:48 -0800 Message-ID: <m2wnv3n1sz.wl-randy@psg.com> From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> To: XML2RFC Interest Group <xml2rfc@ietf.org>, RFC Interest Group <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xml2rfc/GjinTZykaWp8u2WWIE0AyL0pHQw> Subject: [xml2rfc] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: <xml2rfc.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/xml2rfc/> List-Post: <mailto:xml2rfc@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:14:12 -0000 now that henrik too has been driven off, are there folk still fixing issues, such as bibxml? or do we keep rolling our own? <reference anchor='I-D.spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-rsc'> <front> <title>RPKI Signed Checklists Fastly randy From nobody Fri Feb 19 14:29:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135673A0C03 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:29:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ma9-Wx9uDQki for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:29:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0D843A0BEF for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dj5pc056BzyWm; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:29:11 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:29:11 +0100 Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group , RFC Interest Group X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635466551.480871-7a64f6eef68a6f4b577a8abdd9a43b40 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:29:23 -0000 On 2021-02-19, at 23:13, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 > are there folk still fixing > issues, such as bibxml? or do we keep rolling our own? I don=E2=80=99t understand the current situation any more than you, but = Henrik did leave us this gem: $ curl = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-rsc/= xml RPKI Signed Checklists Fastly This document defines a Cryptographic Message Syntax = (CMS) profile for a general purpose listing of checksums (a 'checklist'), = for use with the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI). The objective is to allow an attestation, in the form of a listing of one or more checksums of arbitrary digital objects (files), to be signed = "with resources", and for validation to provide a means to confirm a specific Internet Resource Holder produced the signed checklist. The profile is intended to provide for the signing of a checksum listing with an arbitrary set of Internet Number Resources. (The value of /reference/format/@target in this is, er, suboptimal; = Martin Thomson has pointed out [1] that you can delete the whole thing and xml2rfc will insert something sensible = instead, which you can further control via xml2rfc options. = kramdown-rfc environment variable for that: KRAMDOWN_NO_TARGETS) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten [1]: = https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629/pulls?q=3Dis%3Apr+is%3Aclosed From nobody Fri Feb 19 14:32:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D463C3A0BFC for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URovyIKf0381 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1A013A0BF9 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.180.150.2] (helo=mail.rg.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1lDEJs-0006Sp-VN; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:32:17 +0000 Received: from 162-195-241-81.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net ([162.195.241.81] helo=[192.168.0.18]) by mail.rg.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDEJr-0002CW-QV; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:32:15 +0000 From: "Randy Bush" To: "Carsten Bormann" Cc: "XML2RFC Interest Group" , "RFC Interest Group" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:32:13 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: <3F9B1FDA-20C6-4112-83B2-44EB9C64DBFE@psg.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_86FA5CE6-BAC0-443B-9D69-986BE5FD8A74_=" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:32:19 -0000 --=_MailMate_86FA5CE6-BAC0-443B-9D69-986BE5FD8A74_= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi carsten, my rsync does not get it ryuu.rg.net:/Users/randy> ls refs/id/bibxml3/*spaghetti* refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.draft-spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-manifest-valid= ation-00.xml refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.draft-spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-manifest-valid= ation-01.xml refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.draft-spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-vrp-yang-00.xm= l refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-manifest-validation.= xml refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-vrp-yang.xml randy --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header mangling --=_MailMate_86FA5CE6-BAC0-443B-9D69-986BE5FD8A74_= Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

hi carsten,

my rsync does not get it

ryuu.rg.net:/Users/randy> ls refs/id/bibxml3/spagh= etti
refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.draft-spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-manifest-valid= ation-00.xml
refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.draft-spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-manifest-valid= ation-01.xml
refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.draft-spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-vrp-yang-00.xm= l
refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-manifest-validation.= xml
refs/id/bibxml3/reference.I-D.spaghetti-sidrops-rpki-vrp-yang.xml

randy

randy@psg.com
gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com
signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header mangling

--=_MailMate_86FA5CE6-BAC0-443B-9D69-986BE5FD8A74_=-- From nobody Fri Feb 19 14:36:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE953A0C28 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:36:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yUpK7V4fyciC for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEBFF3A0C1E for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dj5yd2MMbzyWt; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:36:09 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3F9B1FDA-20C6-4112-83B2-44EB9C64DBFE@psg.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:36:08 +0100 Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group , RFC Interest Group X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635466968.82022-fcbec5b28b586a84ffc9fdef12a0fa03 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3267FC6B-932B-4036-9EC4-DA14F0A04616@tzi.org> References: <3F9B1FDA-20C6-4112-83B2-44EB9C64DBFE@psg.com> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:36:14 -0000 On 2021-02-19, at 23:32, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 > hi carsten, >=20 > my rsync does not get it I don=E2=80=99t think we can rsync bibxml from the datatracker yet. Might be interesting to pull something together that does the equivalent = over HTTP so one can then rsync from that=E2=80=A6 But the datatracker = is not very fast, so this might overload it. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 19 14:39:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA08B3A0C4E for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:39:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T4Rd3vq1rFaE for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB5D33A0C3B for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.180.150.2] (helo=mail.rg.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1lDEQZ-0006en-Kx; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:39:11 +0000 Received: from 162-195-241-81.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net ([162.195.241.81] helo=[192.168.0.18]) by mail.rg.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDEQY-0002DV-99; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:39:10 +0000 From: "Randy Bush" To: "Carsten Bormann" Cc: "XML2RFC Interest Group" , "RFC Interest Group" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:39:08 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3267FC6B-932B-4036-9EC4-DA14F0A04616@tzi.org> References: <3F9B1FDA-20C6-4112-83B2-44EB9C64DBFE@psg.com> <3267FC6B-932B-4036-9EC4-DA14F0A04616@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_7E52A1F3-FCF1-4F37-B06E-6112946115A7_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:39:14 -0000 --=_MailMate_7E52A1F3-FCF1-4F37-B06E-6112946115A7_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> my rsync does not get it > > I don’t think we can rsync bibxml from the datatracker yet. > Might be interesting to pull something together that does the > equivalent over HTTP so one can then rsync from that… But the > datatracker is not very fast, so this might overload it. this is my nightly rsync ``` #!/bin/sh RSY="/usr/bin/rsync -vaHx --delete" $RSY rfc-editor.org::rfcs-text-only $HOME/rfcs $RSY ietf.org::internet-drafts $HOME/ids # old + new, though i really want only old $RSY rsync.tools.ietf.org::tools.id $HOME/ids.old # for xml2rfc $RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml $HOME/refs/rfc $RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml3 $HOME/refs/id ``` i am quite open to improving it randy --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back thanks to dmarc header mangling --=_MailMate_7E52A1F3-FCF1-4F37-B06E-6112946115A7_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

my rsync does not get it

I don=E2=80=99t think we can rsync bibxml from the datatr= acker yet.
Might be interesting to pull something together that does the equivalent = over HTTP so one can then rsync from that=E2=80=A6 But the datatracker i= s not very fast, so this might overload it.

this is my nightly rsync

#!/bin/sh
RSY=3D"/usr/bin/rsync -vaHx --delete"
$RSY rfc-editor.org::rfcs-text-only $HOME/rfcs
$RSY ietf.org::internet-drafts $HOME/ids
# old + new, though i really want only old
$RSY rsync.tools.ietf.org::tools.id $HOME/ids.old
# for xml2rfc
$RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml $HOME/refs/rfc
$RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml3 $HOME/refs/id

i am quite open to improving it

randy

randy@psg.com
gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com
signatures are back thanks to dmarc header mangling

--=_MailMate_7E52A1F3-FCF1-4F37-B06E-6112946115A7_=-- From nobody Fri Feb 19 15:18:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA9EA3A0CDF for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:18:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d46-ojol4iNy for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B6243A0CA2 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.1.92]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 11JNIrZ6050059 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:18:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1613776734; bh=awMtzmcI56qQofcoZ6kPUZ6/7GS7CI5ndSX+etaRH6U=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=oy4o0NhfbiOUZYzlF2GCl0XItko3twTSn+5Sl7pgWjTWC3/fAu0eCTQ8Cp+mR7sOz xy4VZ7rqxTiH+Fu0ki8dL09nZwEy7e9sRYuTqGvzwBSiFVGCR+xstNxK8XmkUP92Ml GzgL29u4w9mX5I5q8juQXmny1FPqS71ryTSZFCCc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.1.92] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <3F9B1FDA-20C6-4112-83B2-44EB9C64DBFE@psg.com> <3267FC6B-932B-4036-9EC4-DA14F0A04616@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <0da47490-44ae-7c86-711f-fd7e9eb21db7@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:18:48 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------02C6F314011384CACB915B00" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:18:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------02C6F314011384CACB915B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm in the process of putting together a statement of work to reimplement the generation of the various pools of bibxml. (Tony and Henrik are providing input). This isn't abandoned. Henrik and Tony are also still trying to straighten out the issues with the existing service. RjS On 2/19/21 4:39 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > > my rsync does not get it > > I don’t think we can rsync bibxml from the datatracker yet. > Might be interesting to pull something together that does the > equivalent over HTTP so one can then rsync from that… But the > datatracker is not very fast, so this might overload it. > > this is my nightly rsync > > |#!/bin/sh RSY="/usr/bin/rsync -vaHx --delete" $RSY > rfc-editor.org::rfcs-text-only $HOME/rfcs $RSY > ietf.org::internet-drafts $HOME/ids # old + new, though i really want > only old $RSY rsync.tools.ietf.org::tools.id $HOME/ids.old # for > xml2rfc $RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml > $HOME/refs/rfc $RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml3 > $HOME/refs/id | > > i am quite open to improving it > > randy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > randy@psg.com > |gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com| > signatures are back thanks to dmarc header mangling > > > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc --------------02C6F314011384CACB915B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I'm in the process of putting together a statement of work to reimplement the generation of the various pools of bibxml. (Tony and Henrik are providing input).

This isn't abandoned.

Henrik and Tony are also still trying to straighten out the issues with the existing service.

RjS

On 2/19/21 4:39 PM, Randy Bush wrote:

my rsync does not get it

I don’t think we can rsync bibxml from the datatracker yet.
Might be interesting to pull something together that does the equivalent over HTTP so one can then rsync from that… But the datatracker is not very fast, so this might overload it.

this is my nightly rsync

#!/bin/sh
RSY="/usr/bin/rsync -vaHx --delete"
$RSY rfc-editor.org::rfcs-text-only $HOME/rfcs
$RSY ietf.org::internet-drafts $HOME/ids
# old + new, though i really want only old
$RSY rsync.tools.ietf.org::tools.id $HOME/ids.old
# for xml2rfc
$RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml $HOME/refs/rfc
$RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml3 $HOME/refs/id

i am quite open to improving it

randy

randy@psg.com
gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com
signatures are back thanks to dmarc header mangling


_______________________________________________
xml2rfc mailing list
xml2rfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
--------------02C6F314011384CACB915B00-- From nobody Fri Feb 19 22:02:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7603A121B for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:02:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2YBpTooZreNe for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBB6B3A121E for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:01:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1613800916; bh=RXzePaojE1v3tmNXRCIbRy7fwjgkR1T74sNk9YuJV8c=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=b9n8RGP64R8rNt9KLC7a5nDT9rpQAYYbQM31kS3KF8s7uRc5Z25tuJQmVC0z3giJJ 5/HwV8oe2hKEFxEXZ910VZoTYzV11qspmWVahUB5MRMYUSkntSBx/K0iXR5NQ1YoT9 cm1YyaDZlY5N2VhueSITkv8u/rbxAOWuxlUcnjK4= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.52.60]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MkYXm-1lhQRJ3Wog-00m3VF for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 07:01:55 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 07:01:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NaViJeYHDQcLCHSDiS15QdtUEY51IdtPd7clhCTJIS9r2SoZizk 9FUaWdlIWTrRxoDlvfImLnIprQ070aC5K932EcE23gDAK4j730GGkUoDw2p22LkjpuVu0Hn MLILJXVjxhRF2Xoog+SI49yQ1CpmHA67tPv/Lv7ctWhgTJeW9xpd0+c10pQjLqEklxxsZPo M4t6Vt+VPtiKqYswUb8OQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:s6NEVhjLbYA=:OiDW/+ZEX07e7qqV34ZElx RNkSdo8GNvx41CmixLApYtQStiaVo5Qfptu1Y/l3U0gSewefWaWkKpSXM9672Ov0x7Ci9d6xO LxQIRCs1nt5HPqHIqF6gJTOePJMqeclsybjEx+wP7mi3y55RJF6YW3IqdqyGzj1COaIZ1gUkf 5D5Z+YybQfk7sTdAHyMGaWvgL+qDc4/cs0JS9nHNiFSauq1ChM0XlnWwPCXYkScttwZt2SwT5 Wt3Bn41qhdUwVt2wHFzzW2tc2vdzGKOPEnDtrykG8kaeJmQMnHKy3p2DgGgtwHbUOM3hC/SGR TcC/cvnr0KIwUFp6XAK7+HYInEjcyj24DhH85nZ4h8gvfRZhJSbbzsAixWcd8v+UqA4sLvd5S CXvdbS5RWKx7Uc+iEzCc76CdhhymcB6s/0YsEDv5ggLAz2OdS8PTvhJnfCRjdqfkwDCpn0H7h M4q6XTMIYq1dsPQYhsSo5hUDOwf/Mbw35IL+p5ymisS30/Tu/evOz+1mXXNtau45icIy+J+kk ghivFibGeljpdqaPxjNlE0r2Sb4Yr2qgkujAJ4mO1AfBFHcLNIx2llgV2nNAQjiCrOnybPf7H M9pZGUxZ1PB4d3k0B19z5BSBsC7LOOd40fX2FUkXEbgbTTz5IQKKDJtAv8ZXimaHgCXUKqvbg fGA3hlp9CaXEUHj65TkQJSuMdvOtE+F0sHNnBREQxKU28PS/f7MGlzj2JtyVh18gTPNOAxMc0 GJZBgPn+pr5abqP+h9e4p7GbPxwXjEeu+/HonwCFxFWY36w+1RNwua6wtgwmONH0daPQaDMOP dRFEmI2fVReBS0p8bj2wchlDykf87S9lBOIwJO/szEPYqo4gXl71FG/pLoEPLxR9ye01gxCRw jKgphbPty6/4+dE2Yvag== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 06:02:02 -0000 Am 19.02.2021 um 23:29 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > On 2021-02-19, at 23:13, Randy Bush wrote: >> >> are there folk still fixing >> issues, such as bibxml? or do we keep rolling our own? > > I don=E2=80=99t understand the current situation any more than you, but = Henrik did leave us this gem: > > $ curl https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-spaghetti-sidrops-= rpki-rsc/xml > > > > > RPKI Signed Checklists > > Fastly > > > > This document defines a Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) profi= le > for a general purpose listing of checksums (a 'checklist'), = for use > with the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI). The objective i= s > to allow an attestation, in the form of a listing of one or more > checksums of arbitrary digital objects (files), to be signed "w= ith > resources", and for validation to provide a means to confirm a > specific Internet Resource Holder produced the signed checklist. Th= e > profile is intended to provide for the signing of a checksum listing > with an arbitrary set of Internet Number Resources. > > > > > > > > > > (The value of /reference/format/@target in this is, er, suboptimal; Mart= in Thomson has pointed out [1] that you can delete the whole thing and xml2rfc will insert something sensible instead, w= hich you can further control via xml2rfc options. kramdown-rfc environmen= t variable for that: KRAMDOWN_NO_TARGETS) > ... Note that the element was deprecated in RFC 7991 for good reasons: it had no proper docs, and was inconsistently used. If there's a use case for it, it should be written down properly, and then the element could be resurrected. Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Feb 19 23:09:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3C93A1308 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krOQ7lqIjPIp for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FAE83A1307 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DjKLF722nzyXf; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 08:08:53 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 08:08:53 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <629EE7CF-70B0-453F-997C-EFF74F995A71@tzi.org> References: To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 07:09:00 -0000 On 20. Feb 2021, at 07:01, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > Note that the element was deprecated in RFC 7991 for good > reasons: it had no proper docs, and was inconsistently used. If = there's > a use case for it, it should be written down properly, and then the > element could be resurrected. Interesting. =20 I know of only one usage, and that is quite well established: Providing = multiple link targets that differ in their format. Well, it sometimes was used for single links with the intention to give = the format of the one target provided. I find a lot of examples of the single link use in the RFC repository, = the most recent one in RFC 8979 from this month. RFC 8795 has one with What was the usage inconsistent with that? (I would understand an argument that we don=E2=80=99t know how to render = it in general, or that it has an attribute named =E2=80=9Coctets=E2=80=9D = :eyeroll:, but not that it was inconsistently used. Obviously, RFC = 7749/7991 was the opportunity to write it down less poorly.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 19 23:25:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C770F3A08C5 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:25:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CwYvYrRxBHuR for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BD0E3A08BE for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:24:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1613805889; bh=GayjNDhRrRsb5Fia22x9xhw9goPvONm2fHlJDRSF7LU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=VPUJcSF1RrcsnlbRX52kbhODh15u4wt3XqSjCgSFtUe44e+WDU8tWtTmnFcGGToyT 0C/8mcIzjTSBsmIVhk+j3318GyZ/87G4/bXbM7fHJ7RQnxQtpWuinqplbIaBmKzLhT 5uSMnsUBMfKwZiQwm5dEjfyQ9DLUOJEGBxpXrBaI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.52.60]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MkYXm-1lhRGh3FR0-00m3U4; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 08:24:49 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <629EE7CF-70B0-453F-997C-EFF74F995A71@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <5522ffc8-2b20-86a7-0554-055263aab6a7@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 08:24:48 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <629EE7CF-70B0-453F-997C-EFF74F995A71@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:MAvZ/GlLRLKk7G+IyvRXyhs1bRQG2ZZrMUPT0UM40c8FuTz0US3 GZGfCZvWm0uYao0Rxm4sIr/T3Vv/APhX1ns3lBnWLKmxJMmseCVARwWtCk2e43NGMnaEIPi 0lUwvaLEPbyah3ETSV+DaONlwDjVOF0sEkcXMPbbr9WJGcJcvCXWzQ4ks7FzvpxZCzIindd 2xJjLC77VoMXB1NlRIoKQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:4kFeTImkGeo=:QuVDgsRu6UfPKT62ErfY3g RGrHtAilGLFGNBnecx4yH275yoKHRusr4H9vfzTO79tHxbjbk5uFM9I7zittt4Cw0RFthwz+L VsMn2adZ9mibOd9Ct9/VxKTKpiT8AvQn9GST/Hl9i5C4VCHynSk2d2junO5Uoj9cCRc1PSY6S 7u7taSZ5zp6RHGM7Xm72PF6wyfCBxrznbHnwiKAHLzDgkkjTFKf1v4M3y41dZW1mtbQKBryKH 3b7I3Pght39E3BNa7xwC5/BK4HjHX+STWGjbaBowlQ8xZPSgxu5FyQjDNpJWF0snX3ChtsyfX s1JTOp9tWhpQJ7N2K3Nz7t9EXtF3KCXleNlk1eCBxRxXWWeMXSZHlxl4p7X+km+Vsp/0BJwyX WXUI1QG4/2jYxQfp/DY32WORNtDzl/Vp3QMF8SptjEpp3Xxj/A40/DwCOB5DBjS1NGwhJe4FS F1jhBXp4L5zN48f2XpTdQMDWND6ubM/JHfxnR6E1k4v12ORl2rluRaoroEtholIE7QemHdHL8 P0pe8VmbRFsOj9GWPXZgYekuJS4OoHxKA000EKjLzRbeY4iiD6zXSlWc+spqk1JP3BT2d8KN+ hhtPToHfoXkf6zG05+TJsJdysIC9zd433SboknYfz7QSNr3QPritC3PnJMAjvETEdZxdsPvgQ OThFtHAJjrEKVIuuB60nISTlHjjMGBKULncPJCn7R0YhC4GmWnQ8RpqPQ/hQFjIq0oWwyJ9kq gAX7rTJ8Gyhw5OouxoEY8Pa8IbaX7mznIUmQw3OCq/rpWZz3Px2tJ8Ie8otN9jC6UnDwi+fst 0n2M4LRPsAk+fU8yQx38N2WyTH6kEC8YrOAWSBIWjghR82WR0C7AnxRWDAAjdcDyx+AtagVDP IDJE4qDpr6BGf65AaafA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 07:25:02 -0000 Am 20.02.2021 um 08:08 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > On 20. Feb 2021, at 07:01, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> Note that the element was deprecated in RFC 7991 for good >> reasons: it had no proper docs, and was inconsistently used. If there's >> a use case for it, it should be written down properly, and then the >> element could be resurrected. > > Interesting. > I know of only one usage, and that is quite well established: Providing= multiple link targets that differ in their format. > Well, it sometimes was used for single links with the intention to give = the format of the one target provided. > > I find a lot of examples of the single link use in the RFC repository, t= he most recent one in RFC 8979 from this month. > RFC 8795 has one with > > > > What was the usage inconsistent with that? > > (I would understand an argument that we don=E2=80=99t know how to render= it in general, or that it has an attribute named =E2=80=9Coctets=E2=80=9D= :eyeroll:, but not that it was inconsistently used. Obviously, RFC 7749/= 7991 was the opportunity to write it down less poorly.) 1) It's (AFAIR) not covered by the style guide. 2) RFC 7749 says in : > 2.18. > > Provides a link to an additional format variant for a reference. > > Note that these additional links are neither used in published RFCs nor = supported by all tools. If the goal is to provide a single URI for a refer= ence, the "target" attribute on can be used instead. > > This element appears as a child element of (Section 2.30). > > Content model: this element does not have any contents. I believe back then it was rendered in HTML but not in text, or the other way around. 3) If you look at the output formats for 8979 and 8795 you see that the links indeed are not rendered (I checked text and HTML). I'll also note that the Internet Draft references point to tools.ietf.org, which likely is in conflict with the RFC Style Guide. Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Feb 19 23:27:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF3E3A0922 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:27:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EcZkFumgoe4V for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A45F83A091F for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 23:27:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1613806016; bh=2YIb4gjyX1a2PCP1NZDH7pK4CAWDbYJu9W5DoWadS6g=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZA0HjsPb+x0+ToPGJ/UMWHHDs3XF6O+vmdjDmIXqQK3Sy8EnN/tgU2ERsq+9EFYU6 KmW5EiMkgu1qjWetDFgCna6J91xKvjyCuOxfNtXQaBRz0rpU+snGB0CD5y+VcMS4PS TiV38cWIV0T4c0t+yE1QTz3OAPaEZaEKnKBihRJc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.52.60]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MWAOQ-1lKWbK2vhy-00XZXm; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 08:26:56 +0100 From: Julian Reschke To: Carsten Bormann Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <629EE7CF-70B0-453F-997C-EFF74F995A71@tzi.org> <5522ffc8-2b20-86a7-0554-055263aab6a7@gmx.de> Message-ID: <198c6c3d-bbcc-08bb-0099-08d867c24bb1@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 08:26:55 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5522ffc8-2b20-86a7-0554-055263aab6a7@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+8L26xD63DreBhRa5CkHuw0EgWvREc/i6B7LjeixHmZsDswXFY+ IEuVT8wRJ9jNOq/a08Rb+SnxbXVQiizHeVeS4zUtCet9EcLog3Js7OnMVntvfViHwCFZc4M Xh9nmTQ3KYdPMPknOjVDAw2dYV3vlob75bbdzZ3qLyr2NjZ1WJIkJjeAegvz+h5BGjPMEGA vy0Yo0cayxPuUevdMghSQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:EIS7C8wYdqk=:tHgXhlqyRc7vk3E2fldUJO VhR+nYZSryrd4rMH3Ysmt1Ll0oQ7xafMFj9dc4XcpuoB/dpXpMyAH5HZqFlFKKCwEKKJwVgxp 1YGcjTmUtauUT5p7xIEsWGkQ8lnf6FfJZgM9LjwWMWdeOicm850MexgKwTCICurKhNGjTk7Pn df1PtQMR1XSdA3+hp2KFwgxZAA10dR0UezPuk3eehApeYwduSJGEIvetC4wr/hqaRKZRG5zLl Jb1OiicaldfJ0u9fjqvt8EYxCTcHweYxI99m4fLMXf1Jh0MhoYJJR+rCqzpXrmzYYLamHNe4l YQbANw4gMewRZTSQS8jcFof9dSNhwjbMeCeUYcGHMAYKy1kenvA4SvwdVyJv1pHAO7BhzCJqm IAXos6KYdaomMeanQlaVOSYTSevEPq2N2i/Y15K8TxU85umfG1i122nkYOu9xG7O/ab7ktJAV 4BR4M4obaschJBfiAviTY9jZs4Ux/DWdc7WsoRrpJTkrXdVaUUMkKfDQgPU+PamJgjfcfjORI Lb/MCdzITfUTgefjTcH6Y0oUfWuEQXsryZig/Jzhn7WE6840o7RxV+WNWtdr55ct3+6NwOVyn UFd/7smLO3D9kNpVQIojprGuvbz5vkj9slGBnXXy+d5rqNvhrSdQmuZY4ScqhERX97j40WGXp NWqCvpNily/H5hdvrmIbnngsW6bPV9gVJ1rIs8HnT7gEdwxv4ikE3VXEhuNes0sUB/iWEAq20 yQlbT6TWvbsEp9A9kgSdJdveWX4nBHEbigcala88Ngufd29bPr/EEmp5uDawg8+ZawH18KgvH 7o0PhFYDqPAFzc7W+HwcYqZ0xP0Oe74CVOFt6vkmo8NbbiNfJuaZWGJBpXE6CByfjY6u57Dqp dfWW2M2NozB+qFLEhbJQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 07:27:09 -0000 Am 20.02.2021 um 08:24 schrieb Julian Reschke: > ... > 1) It's (AFAIR) not covered by the style guide. > > 2) RFC 7749 says in > : > >> 2.18. >> >> Provides a link to an additional format variant for a reference. >> >> Note that these additional links are neither used in published RFCs >> nor supported by all tools. If the goal is to provide a single URI for >> a reference, the "target" attribute on can be used instead. >> >> This element appears as a child element of (Section 2.30). >> >> Content model: this element does not have any contents. > > I believe back then it was rendered in HTML but not in text, or the > other way around. > > 3) If you look at the output formats for 8979 and 8795 you see that the > links indeed are not rendered (I checked text and HTML). I'll also note > that the Internet Draft references point to tools.ietf.org, which likely > is in conflict with the RFC Style Guide. > ... 4) That the element appears in the canonical RFC appears to be in conflict with . Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Feb 20 10:41:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087BB3A163A for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 10:41:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fK-retnEDEKu for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 10:40:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A61B93A122C for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 10:40:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDXBY-0007Mj-JR; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 18:40:56 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 10:40:56 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Julian Reschke Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 18:41:00 -0000 > Note that the element was deprecated in RFC 7991 i nuked it yesterday under advice from, i think, carsten, tyvm but i am just a protocol wonk and would really like all this cruft hidden from me in a nice file in my rsunk dirs but it's broken and i have to deal with this cruft. i respect that this may be fun for you rfc production process wonks, but have mercy on us poor geeks just trying to get a draft out. :) [ btw, major thanks and props to you folk hanging in there despite the fools who think senior folk are fungible ] randy From nobody Sat Feb 20 12:43:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDEE3A0C7E for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 12:43:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yx_2B2dI9u1A for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 12:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F7DA3A0C7D for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 12:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049458.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. 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charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 20:54:05 -0000 > My privileges on the machine where bibxml is hosted were also cut off, > so I have not been able to debug or fix what is going on there. effing brilliant. as an old friend once told me When there is rot somewhere in the middle of the organization, that part can be sawed off and regrown. When it is at the top, it descends. A middle manager may be able to block it for a while; but eventually they break and the rot keeps descending. -- paraphrased from Tom DeMarco if senior software engineers of the quality of the tools crew are actually fungible, then why can $dayjob not fill two open reqs? randy --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header mangling From nobody Mon Feb 22 10:02:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2D13A1E98 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:02:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WPDFrAIB_m9y for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 426393A1E95 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id r23so60066456ljh.1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:02:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DR7T2gO1S4+G2gkra55QIVvQVN3k6JXfvxmTBrqeaHI=; b=mSlA9rH5twI3zN7S5jj/cSocIyV/XAD63unc9EBqIerORKXgeLldZkw0CxXNBjj/JK 5UFR/Yk0VJHMkvmSBXE2vhClZlffCAv8GO2nTeCwAZ+xsSZ/D9a8EQGHXt6YgbBR3Jjm PbW6msVyO3EjNKCfKta7Dv0wRp4JUoWyWpQZCJ015+HRAlokh/Xeq6Vf4rSkngZmrDz0 ZSP+f4SDmgN/XMumAUhRubHw8K2ny2cu4r96IKJyuVZyWFNbw2ECtZOvoFsL3B4suoq2 c1mj+wUw7POoN7fhUFGiTOuGNFwdUOgn3R9v7CPMjivtqtpR9FEjNejmoUg0d7j45+nQ alOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DR7T2gO1S4+G2gkra55QIVvQVN3k6JXfvxmTBrqeaHI=; b=oIjtlLfFNKq4iusBH729g+lgjoMpNvYFRb9nQG8dqebDiPx988uIU14UUbJXhblzif 8bslubtNp77wZOybmrWWduFcgGQH/9T+68WHWHyTzABIe9nFkB+lkFaLzSXbQBeDUqIk JNP6R/OaZs7nNcEGt3X3rrlOQO3gEQjzvkmtDJv2CTeISFWytuVyxrQP/6ehMGSRriEw ciFqDmY8KIMKOoY4Li+/HdLpamBzVHZlU/oATvxEEnMZCN5kKAx6wAJUFo7EwBSEMfHS OEbjkvjOr+3pFMat02zuSQ2NA+flvjGlJP6C5x/6TAuVUZIeRDhrfq/D5UlKdPmwDFsx BtKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532645atnb0asTsK61sbKT9VfSQNrcmOkHLlE3ECYHRh8lZJwFhx OmGlbKyPt0q03iFTJN2aONx9H4rMSsRf+OqoFIdUwpSWyBjORA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwH2yqiixQ17NQh+y1NqmijZOA7fIF/PQzuSw4Of0Cb0ZixQg3C7eT/BQaOCtxxO4/kwbv+NGbpIyKUMByljw8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:978c:: with SMTP id y12mr1602200lji.107.1614016964615; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:02:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:02:33 -0800 Message-ID: To: XML2RFC Interest Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d662ba05bbf09bb4" Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:02:49 -0000 --000000000000d662ba05bbf09bb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, not sure if I am asking this question on the proper list. Please advise. Here's my situation. xml2rfc allows me to list two or more email addresses in . IDnits does not flag that. But in the upload it fails with the following: Greg Mirsky - ZTE Corporation - *unknown country* Invalid email address. A valid email address is required. My question is, Is it possible to associate two email addresses with an author? If yes, then how? Regards, Greg --000000000000d662ba05bbf09bb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
not sure if I am asking this question on the prope= r list. Please advise.
Here's my situation. xml2rfc allows me= to list two or more email addresses in <email/>.
IDnits do= es not flag that. But in the upload it fails with the following:
= Greg Mirsky <= ;gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com; = gregimirsky@gmail.com> - ZT= E Corporation -=C2=A0unknown country

Invalid email address. A valid email address is required.

<= /div>
My question is, Is it possible to associate two email addresses w= ith an author? If yes, then how?

Regards,
Greg
--000000000000d662ba05bbf09bb4-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 10:30:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E353A1EBC for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:30:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9H9xsZ6YxA7P for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33D7C3A1EE1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id u8so14276360ior.13 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:29:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IuiUpVogD67hS9UTV2VxE5pe95YE3E1PUkvLKRlpcWI=; b=S2Gk7ZXZG4sfUobz8S43u7d/SLVGrdDSiczyDs4b8tgWVE9dVOkJ5UjPX8+rBeE1tO /geIq+MvUJYozLLrKn1BRxzI+QhkGs96tA4wRBUhlBaX0CvjATaAKYI4VtxT0xnQKSuS w1gH+IxoR0dYxmsIWmBSB+Y3mYoyZlAbH/gLY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IuiUpVogD67hS9UTV2VxE5pe95YE3E1PUkvLKRlpcWI=; b=qsHvW0S+4gjt49Ph5BLnuFXkWmkktk0mLvXbE68+fcYOlQvWveU+aGXoFpupPuLY6g AXZaXg7oJcaUHvyCBm0yHQO0F2ldx/ss0pTE6nSZBzVZXlUwjc27b0HMwJQZ3+1jo7TE aUxzPLbGpreOl0HnNvP0yMTjYxNl1QsyPAyfGbM29q9goe25IyX82xEhuOVU803CG858 M5JEcMv9p3mOB2TsUAWLmALYgadSToEK15/hchQUhkd2RdcaWemXH6xpdG5JqFPcPP73 gNZHjGrgKKFDT/gMROcigcCsDdpV854uaESkuTBzyhn0Jf91lRTfojMevYUCR4TdhBD/ KwKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5314ZyeWnDRiu+OpgUsEOxsXMvK67BCDhNBthMQr/HsCBp/BmxHW ugNfqtjQjdi4wO86+nA+1gKekOFSy9DYLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyLulWLYkGS0jkb3TaEYnVxaZJqVUB4AC2JloqARXhIvDwaI8eUS6KFV+pC9zlkXm03UJVv+Q== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6a1a:: with SMTP id x26mr16083652iog.207.1614018595389; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l7sm12204288ilq.26.2021.02.22.10.29.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:29:54 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Mirsky , XML2RFC Interest Group References: From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <64be9e93-e195-abb2-ddf2-2d6552c90e37@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:29:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:30:45 -0000 On 2/22/21 11:02 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi, > not sure if I am asking this question on the proper list. Please advise. > Here's my situation. xml2rfc allows me to list two or more email > addresses in . > IDnits does not flag that. But in the upload it fails with the following: > Greg Mirsky ; > gregimirsky@gmail.com > - ZTE Corporation > - /unknown country/ > > Invalid email address. A valid email address is required. > > My question is, Is it possible to associate two email addresses with an > author? If yes, then how? Hi Greg, My understanding is that you can include a comma-separated list. At some point (soonish?) we will allow multiple elements within
... https://github.com/rfc-format/draft-iab-xml2rfc-v3-bis/issues/4 HTH. Peter From nobody Mon Feb 22 10:33:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC263A1EC8 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:33:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cP-m0k-T5AMi for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B00A3A1EC5 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:33:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614018804; bh=+rRrA0btX1gzS+VjZMkpoeIkE6+CUpNvpiQhulY9EBc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=gYsY9InnSExJaQVg1kGVTmCeDMMRo3No8akb52C6CJuZSJNIK79d5HmMINTscP97c QF/UeDO1UB6tq66G5WmfGxuMZ+GkeHpS0IgFZS9fy+vXMLWFbLRrbfrwyyXFvUtH+Y GCrZK//D5US44An3KbrlALp6MHyY4mW6cmqeUSoM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.48.1]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MfpSb-1lkokX3F1t-00gKeK for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:33:24 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:33:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:h0KCJZE0bjqRbXossDtSEhiZHYrYHex/AsYJ/X6bvmZuVo83LvX aQ8SNIIe7D31MfnYpGzRqJP4e90ElwEAuo5azauNYvaABCkI5kBi2uaZtUFA1mcm8MvY6gf ACfMnOVF4LoBi9BJi1okKZXvgPU175iciVznEUy6EjWtrgPgsGpTvjJMgNEc4SdJf4Rq2GG +Xk53Etqu8CJ28LOFw04A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:srWh6NacEoI=:tlwfQXJmAN20f36Vn/CClx tOH0o2ebbZNlJBPAuZG/CbVZXn20Vce9WaaJER860eYnlIxmyGl8dTO5o+a1NsyUdEoIXgkFQ WXqho1gqaCnvMd6yUHjwyCmRY6yUQDuIUEAXUOh6g2SZLDut5w8OM3QXM599OprC0KaUNetG0 iwywkXqK+FyGnY6nDUXMZFbrJEZfoXBpkJLdRZxYs4xXTLJ0Vg97eWA3XPzyw5BpkYBeFN4nD +Mgu4q9SEbWea/4NC0/VEApW5OMR4pRSWZeuYCf684uX9ZzbR9CzEVfzbtCioS4vTKk5BNhPP fmQf4L1dQRQzev+fFoCKQs5JYQoQ88XMcXaHCL5iX6VzLaYR811eb0oWX6YhPzC2nR0ltqpXm lhl8znhw43Zb3GH+btO/S2K+2CNjAvmCUa3vEh9fcRrfa2aObb9vFpWNSbFocCgN7pL2tPXzS qiT6eXFovTF5ytAPtf1nL5LuC7m3YXpchfI5ajpsrH6Mjnc9TTrFwN/BABLUQeUH+vHG1T0X+ 7G4l5HYVZN5qwOcLhrw/8fn5Lhf0sEiY7weVHTfpxRyrTfvJx19tAJUyBjF0A6EwYr9BfCJqk 6kr0SvAzlL5SNHb22A8fx4pkYCvVkyFabulr/SZbTPKuyiRy2CxdMfgk4a9aWKhPLqXCZZkgm 50kkFBRIqZktgmF4Vl92VlbOeO2XnVcYdvyTxXNLx7Bi6n8PQKPr0KFvaVGxyDQrcPS4m/uzk HP+eAqARGi56eyLjyr6Ua2d0xyf5Ehg02aeVlaQ4RGHBbIL4Fy5/2Yie0I/R5F4V7wLFs5UPZ 6At2kEnlGDzY4iGj+Uh99HzXvXiTMTdHfn0n3AF6DtbhhqOriUwIfdh5ZBP7JnW6K0EWoyYwa ZkBR4gjZzW4bH7mc95og== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:33:29 -0000 Am 22.02.2021 um 19:02 schrieb Greg Mirsky: > Hi, > not sure if I am asking this question on the proper list. Please advise. > Here's my situation. xml2rfc allows me to list two or more email > addresses in . > IDnits does not flag that. But in the upload it fails with the following= : > Greg Mirsky ; > gregimirsky@gmail.com > - ZTE Corporation > - /unknown country/ > > Invalid email address. A valid email address is required. > > My question is, Is it possible to associate two email addresses with an > author? If yes, then how? > > Regards, > Greg What exactly did you try? Two elements, or multiple addresses in a single element? Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Feb 22 10:36:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17183A1ED5 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:36:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hvGxE5mtVK2M for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD33D3A1ECE for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:35:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614018955; bh=ZZZfqlJTLUjBTC7yiEBf9QC519w+ptdQJKE7dU5ZP2k=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=jUbMr37T7dz/Qml02LgNKqxzCX+yH+Tmm6SYvOEOdY4W0u+QEPuU0ouI2EA+vPgEY 1mbQjA2tbAtzJe35lc0KcXSXixY8XeDqiE7nRmNwpxTwuNHsudOZL7QmloO4wCm5oG 2kc+wDt+u/+Dt/KijKoFUOSw8PX9LG28LL4pwbO0= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.48.1]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MCsQ4-1l5QN840Tw-008sXY for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:35:55 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <64be9e93-e195-abb2-ddf2-2d6552c90e37@mozilla.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:35:54 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <64be9e93-e195-abb2-ddf2-2d6552c90e37@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Dr9x88Gmo7JkvvF1dSQNrxe/IsZmrE9WX41WPkaDR1fs/J5vEhM ymIn9XE5PytAzS8g1gkkKnudBOMEh5g0RbQfwykFedI1yNOPORvO3tFzpZXoVd2PD6XGRAp /hJmylZpeppuBb5Cs6/WKCrbcQnPraUnWR0wCZA8F15p8Q+hcC2GYGDeqrZbdTsrYAWLa9n k5auPqwOyRkOPl5g6N7PA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:H1lNP+RREH8=:TAfgJmmhFduzUMbXTTV8Gd 4JbtU1qwxKALocm4MBXcmzpRC1nX8y5nHcXX6/CRkn4qiZszjtyvm8+hmbd+oh5kUOi6XKhvx p5pJx0vsP3dbPj7WLFtFExeKuN7hKsANQ7vTExCoSkPaWc5/NYVpV+9ijJLEt4XBcqiHcRRCS 0HxbnjKdSW7SEf8CitmNgtppiEimSzRqFCTMeWm+Zb3y/jEYMljUAGxapGwIpU5bbnnwsc5ET IcLXzRmSMD8+9kNs/8/f0lZ9jVtF1Z7eGbbiuTJubEIfXVHS3hLh8VuqwPpmRRkMS8r25v3Rx knGPrP7b265g4cs9R+E5G+/O+tVTSyXdNgA3CnxxzohSTz7o5dfZV/H/KVt5CMJYzMntToVIt H+YdB1Q5AHnMyUI5V+KPQ5a5gHFhGAid5NeiiRL/CepVrGk97U5qIrLFjvadTfj37xn1dHXbg NNdy0ZZ1QXerz2yqrx+wv6soSiMO2WRDj9BT19yaWXSzJQZbZ2BdyLGVhsNPmTcT0YmsMn6lu oxTGNXicWTkz8FkGrYFIUiUB3YTFwQXEEy2UI3HCfHDyFZRubIJ4blKOSawdBM/T3b9EosEPl r7ivULmVctnZ+gxXy1JXCELVvTE2PLfX284CsQ6DLnkI4ZZKCDKC0SMlJv4DwucXhvtEv1V75 e46QzYMq6pAwuJFomzMkc/ksBh2GSZUaBPVhuLsodUqHu1EQXMFme7yr3Pa6tntxmelJqGGAB OMKEC+C24x7gNgejbIDVjEGd7hZCnPjKw/c+6yy1Nm4P3xoY8SBA6JuyP1ReQG9j76CXReRU0 +hIYei9Yz9ZXN0z9gjgp6wHO7RoSaa8OEh4ESZV9wnzcUUEDXsgSc5Zunmgbyzc4msLMa7PVT 2GdEt7a7rn7mbqQjRm3A== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:36:01 -0000 Am 22.02.2021 um 19:29 schrieb Peter Saint-Andre: > On 2/22/21 11:02 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: >> Hi, >> not sure if I am asking this question on the proper list. Please advise= . >> Here's my situation. xml2rfc allows me to list two or more email >> addresses in . >> IDnits does not flag that. But in the upload it fails with the followin= g: >> Greg Mirsky = ; >> gregimirsky@gmail.com > - ZTE Corporation >> -=C2=A0/unknown country/ >> >> Invalid email address. A valid email address is required. >> >> My question is, Is it possible to associate two email addresses with an >> author? If yes, then how? > > Hi Greg, > > My understanding is that you can include a comma-separated list. > > At some point (soonish?) we will allow multiple elements within >
... > > https://github.com/rfc-format/draft-iab-xml2rfc-v3-bis/issues/4 This is IMHO already implemented (since xml2rfc 2.46.0). Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Feb 22 10:55:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 689333A1F10 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:55:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A89ITX4oMCO1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C97A3A1F0F for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dkrw42ZcMzyNK; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:55:00 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:54:59 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635712899.832307-6557e3eb4c937f986c376710365d3b54 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <64be9e93-e195-abb2-ddf2-2d6552c90e37@mozilla.com> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:55:05 -0000 On 2021-02-22, at 19:35, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > This is IMHO already implemented (since xml2rfc 2.46.0). =46rom the horse=E2=80=99s mouth (or really, from its guts, = ~/lib/python3.9/site-packages/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc): address =3D element address { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, postal?, phone?, facsimile?, email*, uri? } Change the ? into a *. The rest of the rendering should already =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D = (tweaks are still possible, of course). Maybe I should put this into http://www.tzi.de/~cabo/contact-hack.sh so = people can play with it and we hit the road running once this is = adopted. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 22 11:00:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DE23A1F19 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:00:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h16rieUoiJzQ for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C87B83A100D for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id h26so7515291lfm.1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:00:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZMELQZg1+4bPoCTCwGI3ukbYNUK2Lxt6O+C64E74urw=; b=DfLfen6BCkRBO4KhWTbYqXRo7/VGIfrcUEd4KpN8usljgAeGKAeka3PuqRh+iYU+zG QSqbK8YHyC39HgLrI2di+RZX0y/0MlicofM9t0mkSr0CdW96gGQU53/2oEYR5AiiIQsc lY97cxb/dsH63np0KqGEDjiUIneQNKMKfx1OxFy4K/twuB7G5wzfaM3uP4vwyrniuXHn 2pA4c6XrFGD2yIF1/SKdZFj7D4KytdbGMyNStgmKq5KI/oMKPEWJqwnjz76/sjV2ypTy benq6oRXBoxvtO84OQ0zEy2UuZFD7v4IPRe7Op8w2npGpQydvuhxTuuOfU1d299Et20Y rjEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZMELQZg1+4bPoCTCwGI3ukbYNUK2Lxt6O+C64E74urw=; b=uMEilaRhoU/Nxe8E+WcGO/+egGm1tWmpygqG6wJca30HtMT6AstTHzbybqWP/WMk+U iI/TCneiXIlCAX5akWUXZdtpNhHYTVHhFhwBCe3OA/HzxU/VqWQAxyf5XiHrVjwXwR6q yuFL3UAPHgOzMCJ3DdPcf38bXNrD2mdt7cK4FweXqtROufHdzgkgaKvic/WmwftgjmUU ah/F9KxTUegajVIHcLtoZ5lxqRvHfWGFKpWqLC27CgxO4/ZyJxm7s3y5TET+X1aWbapt oD5+iIC4UeKNu4r091+yROcxQ9O4LSqV1tRegvNl7GPTkAh0llIuDsczi1txiMpkImBG 558w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533HKjgZUsio+wHOvAjQM86EJMEdJSmndeeF4F0J5ZGkqrZtdAIT BQP5yZ6ZCN2+LCBH56gZEABQ7zieyVPlUHOH5xgJEhCw X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxuDM64lje4gV8tE2TzTpdvDSU232Z195a+bOyRhok0EpDRDMttQQW8fsyNIi4qHeDCxlFCDE8NdaUMN4zwa58= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:22c8:: with SMTP id g8mr13981906lfu.388.1614020408937; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:00:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:05:04 -0800 Message-ID: To: Julian Reschke Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000022937c05bbf1696b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:00:12 -0000 --00000000000022937c05bbf1696b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Julian, I should have been clearer. I've listed two addresses separated by a semicolon in a single . I'll try it with a coma now. Regards, Greg On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 10:33 Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 22.02.2021 um 19:02 schrieb Greg Mirsky: > > Hi, > > not sure if I am asking this question on the proper list. Please advise. > > Here's my situation. xml2rfc allows me to list two or more email > > addresses in . > > IDnits does not flag that. But in the upload it fails with the following: > > Greg Mirsky ; > > gregimirsky@gmail.com > - ZTE Corporation > > - /unknown country/ > > > > Invalid email address. A valid email address is required. > > > > My question is, Is it possible to associate two email addresses with an > > author? If yes, then how? > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > What exactly did you try? Two elements, or multiple addresses in > a single element? > > Best regards, Julian > > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc > --00000000000022937c05bbf1696b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Julian,
I should have been clearer. I= 've listed two addresses separated by a semicolon in a single <email= />. I'll try it with a coma now.

Regards,=C2=A0
Greg=C2=A0

On Mo= n, Feb 22, 2021, 10:33 Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 22.02.2021 um 19:02 schrieb Greg Mirsky:
> Hi,
> not sure if I am asking this question on the proper list. Please advis= e.
> Here's my situation. xml2rfc allows me to list two or more email > addresses in <email/>.
> IDnits does not flag that. But in the upload it fails with the followi= ng:
> Greg Mirsky <gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com <mailto:g= regory.mirsky@ztetx.com>;
> gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com&g= t;> - ZTE Corporation
> - /unknown country/
>
> Invalid email address. A valid email address is required.
>
> My question is, Is it possible to associate two email addresses with a= n
> author? If yes, then how?
>
> Regards,
> Greg

What exactly did you try? Two <email> elements, or multiple addresses= in
a single element?

Best regards, Julian

_______________________________________________
xml2rfc mailing list
xm= l2rfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rf= c
--00000000000022937c05bbf1696b-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 11:03:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5019B3A1F25 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:03:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xn55V_EnsgWz for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EAD03A1F24 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:03:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614020624; bh=+OVIKrZYmUC8Vs/bPAS1qhe6D7rmZodw0kVhKOAlJkg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=YDLLvMazVQqhMKjKxWPoGxJTD7C/IvlPVz5UQlgnON5UW9Od+6LDLY+YFklVmyRxq M8QKot74TGTwbvrUxwgP9FdVDIdmgAqsS+hkwHdec9D1S/5l2db8J7CkovRRbicUmP FGaLO4QxoUuD2jIxT0RI+NlMMyerXPEfQXTHvl9c= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.48.1]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1ML9yc-1lWU8Q2z9m-00IGlV for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:03:44 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <48a9e368-6a0e-357a-75e5-9e1d3135a0b5@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:03:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:tUGYbLY9R4elPQQkbVsTGxG3XLurqYb6ReevXMQANgirzpv70iw /+AN/95YIPFciPaxNQx8WFqakeDH9T7mYjbg2SDHXxuYP5HRVwfBVRwHTFHeJXtuBpw6cQn pvNTufXuKlsZve1R7cdacPtA7rfaRN2N91flXoGxMQSlV06kUNCbhrYMEL92ZJvbtzSvIGD W5elytLQs1JO+tL0IRcbg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VYpstGQHrgM=:BfJaJyJCrMBuX8AthXV8/d SSPzjf1xeGEnMH+Gq8FQLugDIeiTSIJH5+3AZ40Ywj4fEvlAHuDt5EUeLgTDOmDO4rMQeH6/P znaD1Xe/Dgb5MgpuCR1lkZJreimAvXySZRtFmHa5p05DVqU9LHBspZo9KEFHsT/FSx+MK7uRL Ku1oNdObXnoigmQFNquhe983bM5vKNBFNGAaaY5/szIEaSSTsPOlZajV09jUdrJ6dfSu4/Yiv XfNNecsiugAvLMwc6RKZEsxcyADw17Q3u/QWXTj/B5nU5cQx9bwzaRskIUropVqycyeGvOT+e IhOTDNNeaBdEMLXIsvOWrCuuepzToOieT4ZeezHthX2LcIUpoULNkW/4dd8osXk/HrOQvKlwf 5NpYbFbWIureZ2TWrrocF/8WZAT4ImuExOxfGQKnBrHehccOmsRol9+UZhvkmxR0XySm9pnAX aD5Ry6DJJs5gkxayUS6LGHMV6uRsVijgPa/d3kgexDdTPI/rK6nLr4RG9yznwwwRYhNTQCCZQ W9LExnUAbmOAgLqS/5/t59YOHKxvtyURmUrn2J1Yykq+zZ2dkznoFvnn53m1Mysbj9Y9WUO1p vbjKt30pUAYZWtmBsdkoraVCb0uViYTihkQw9m+i8hTZ5nOXw9xkViglSN+5Mj8TSTzQAYOCY g/S+YACTa8eVOtGinQlhi9wSaCeI49Yls/XQybiiUAQEP+b0kvYlKu1IkWWy2IdCEpHlGdMbr GqtHHKCrt251ORsJvZ6hQ+V5/E+O9czrJ33+/Pf9WWwbeSEFkUZ0kS1JM7dGnAQgzefPZSL6n unyKHYnQYOoRi7CDZw3kqGXCDnxQKdoN9HzZs/t9nknRZTZyjuSwEorhAU7bZqu/Fs6oN1zCn YYIWRWYdGjfgIYFnnk4g== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:03:49 -0000 Am 22.02.2021 um 20:05 schrieb Greg Mirsky: > Hi Julian, > I should have been clearer. I've listed two addresses separated by a > semicolon in a single . I'll try it with a coma now. > > Regards, > Greg No, you really should use multiple elements! Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Feb 22 11:18:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2926C3A1F9B for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:18:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mvft4Z8repv8 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D8EB3A1FBA for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DksQz5KJPzyNK; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:18:19 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:18:19 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635714299.2748981-c277e0eb54c6efa1068b42496f6b2c92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <07D996C4-2E29-4293-A540-2E574ABE90A3@tzi.org> References: <64be9e93-e195-abb2-ddf2-2d6552c90e37@mozilla.com> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:18:43 -0000 On 2021-02-22, at 19:54, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Change the ? into a *. Mixing up threads again. The first part was about the email*, which is indeed in there today. > commit 83cd6f99bc21a4a69c644871282e9298bee12efc > Author: henrik@levkowetz.com = > Date: Tue Jun 23 17:06:26 2020 +0000 >=20 > Added support for multiple email addresses within an author's = address block. Fixes issue #522. The second part was about getting the same change for what is now uri?, = which should be a uri*. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 22 12:00:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4AAC3A2045 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:59:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWBSFxPvqvo4; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B47933A2080; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:59:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F31C0415-9715-414D-82C7-B3D42A8CE1D1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:59:30 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: "HANSEN, TONY L" , XML2RFC Interest Group , RFC Interest Group To: Randy Bush References: <0F1C9566-D393-49AE-83C0-8362D8C8763A@att.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:00:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F31C0415-9715-414D-82C7-B3D42A8CE1D1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 21/02/2021, at 9:54 AM, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 >> My privileges on the machine where bibxml is hosted were also cut = off, >> so I have not been able to debug or fix what is going on there. >=20 > effing brilliant. as an old friend once told me Just so that we are clear, the machine that Tony has lost privileges on = is under the sole control of Henrik and privileges were lost because it = died irreparably. The service has since been moved to another machine = controlled exclusively by Henrik and so all decisions regarding = privileges are made by him. Jay >=20 > When there is rot somewhere in the middle of the organization, that > part can be sawed off and regrown. When it is at the top, it > descends. A middle manager may be able to block it for a while; = but > eventually they break and the rot keeps descending. > -- paraphrased from Tom DeMarco >=20 > if senior software engineers of the quality of the tools crew are > actually fungible, then why can $dayjob not fill two open reqs? >=20 > randy >=20 > --- > randy@psg.com > `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` > signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header mangling > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_F31C0415-9715-414D-82C7-B3D42A8CE1D1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 21/02/2021, at 9:54 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> = wrote:

My privileges on the = machine where bibxml is hosted were also cut off,
so I = have not been able to debug or fix what is going on there.

effing brilliant.  as an old = friend once told me

Just so that we are clear, the machine that = Tony has lost privileges on is under the sole control of Henrik and = privileges were lost because it died irreparably.  The service has = since been moved to another machine controlled exclusively by Henrik and = so all decisions regarding privileges are made by him.

Jay



   When there = is rot somewhere in the middle of the organization, that
=    part can be sawed off and regrown.  When it is at = the top, it
   descends.  A middle = manager may be able to block it for a while; but
=    eventually they break and the rot keeps descending.
     -- paraphrased from Tom = DeMarco

if senior software engineers of the = quality of the tools crew are
actually fungible, then why = can $dayjob not fill two open reqs?

randy

---
randy@psg.com
`gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd = randy@psg.com`
signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header = mangling
_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_F31C0415-9715-414D-82C7-B3D42A8CE1D1-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 12:41:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B8D3A1FB5 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 12:41:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8T2ovS10BNuT for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 12:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B6753A1FAC for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 12:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id r19so6083051otk.2 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 12:41:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OKrncDHVsvFB7yo9UtnrlT/A5tpXxl9pN2xogIFyN8c=; b=N1OzyAwzLoppNf5OcyyXbGYs2Wl9q0DjOfZcJ4XnTDu5nX0vT0DrtsyLBzFNJP70lI XDL1MKBsm0VzBJqgrjZ4u/gorKEjUFV2/v2VWFNUohMx6IjlYthP5elcxNiXXPqg82I2 eSif00SxDFIipM1UxAFpzQy6wXfWn75i1SJJyoFd7qgG1TWhMIco/JRb0xsrqG2fmsn8 jixVSiaG7zBXCemfxJoTGQGIejdfpuCCN3NihpJIGxwQN78OVytZ+cyOgPk6qH+ei6RS A9XCDeHY3zskRhCD2RI7i6PSXUOpJr2GaPEzqYjWHh63f+iquMlwNY1iyn0Sbk3DjDhB V1EQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OKrncDHVsvFB7yo9UtnrlT/A5tpXxl9pN2xogIFyN8c=; b=eV1Mo8VCz+LPYRpSuB037O4P5r1i/GtsMxCWdl8L4rNJ3O6lVGNYQJeQb49AcX5xgj Zrt0p4GOgqK11rD6RAhsVo02Ls5PK3cqNXosaU01Gxn3gwzgH8NeCqILgqa87KbPJm3z QYaa0f+udWXWDM3TK3iNCR/2mOumNRC6kuRU8oBVc6JXbju0+/dGJ4eXLzw8jJHTC5Wc 62hgPQpqG7xgi+rQF4++RFfNMoNoRWOMy8A+NAFQtCaQXwWOke2cSk/Gcb5tvY3LadVh UBQOlrvNA4bDzBx2ZDsYEh6N9hSBH3RgBFoGW3i3k0eKAiR2bLMsPF/rlZMEXM5hbsjy n4lw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533zA4zmMvYhzflXRy6dOQseQzVe0ykyFE5UQOVtaa9D8F2h2XFF RdHomTu6PF3QPuXQ2pZiVV972b/EzPJeV0eK9IY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwRv5ubbBlhWY05EeT9fj7QdcZn1mQn08F0HYoe+bsldYj1e+q5VhTYQb0dIWBbQ7LM+fYOOL2mUX+iVSoDF8U= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:5d14:: with SMTP id b20mr17806447oti.218.1614026487611; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 12:41:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48a9e368-6a0e-357a-75e5-9e1d3135a0b5@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <48a9e368-6a0e-357a-75e5-9e1d3135a0b5@gmx.de> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 12:41:16 -0800 Message-ID: To: Julian Reschke Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000073c48205bbf2d314" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:41:30 -0000 --00000000000073c48205bbf2d314 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Julian, I gave it, two in a single
, a try but xml2rfc throws this error at me: INPUT: Line 24: Element address content does not follow the DTD, expecting (postal? , phone? , facsimile? , email? , uri?), got (postal email email ) And two email addresses in a single passes xml2rfc and IDnits but results in the same "Meta-Data error found!" banner as with the semicolon. Regards, Greg On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:04 AM Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 22.02.2021 um 20:05 schrieb Greg Mirsky: > > Hi Julian, > > I should have been clearer. I've listed two addresses separated by a > > semicolon in a single . I'll try it with a coma now. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > No, you really should use multiple elements! > > Best regards, Julian > > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc > --00000000000073c48205bbf2d314 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Julian,
I gave it, two <email/> in a single &= lt;address/>, a try but xml2rfc throws this error at me:
=C2= =A0INPUT: Line 24: Element address content does not follow the DTD, expecti= ng (postal? , phone? , facsimile? , email? , uri?), got (postal email email= )
And two email addresses in a single <email/> passes = xml2rfc and IDnits but results in the same "Meta-Data error found!&quo= t; banner as with the semicolon.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:04 AM Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 22.02.2021 um 20:05 s= chrieb Greg Mirsky:
> Hi Julian,
> I should have been clearer. I've listed two addresses separated by= a
> semicolon in a single <email/>. I'll try it with a coma now.=
>
> Regards,
> Greg

No, you really should use multiple <email> elements!

Best regards, Julian

_______________________________________________
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--00000000000073c48205bbf2d314-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 13:27:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8E53A2095; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 13:27:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jWxmxPMwrMKS; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 13:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3768B3A2083; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 13:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lEIjq-0005OP-4K; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:27:30 +0000 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 13:27:31 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jay Daley Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group , RFC Interest Group In-Reply-To: References: <0F1C9566-D393-49AE-83C0-8362D8C8763A@att.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] whose on first X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:27:42 -0000 > Just so that we are clear, the machine that Tony has lost privileges > on is under the sole control of Henrik and privileges were lost > because it died irreparably. The service has since been moved to > another machine controlled exclusively by Henrik and so all decisions > regarding privileges are made by him. i can unhappily report that i have become aware of this. and more of the sad chain of events leading us here than i might like to be. and yes, of course henrik had his role to play. and he comes from the passive aggressive swedish culture to which i am somewhat allergic. as the list of departing senior professionals continues to grow, all from similar causes, it just might not be entirely their fault. best wishes on the senior software engineers are fungible experiment. randy --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header mangling From nobody Mon Feb 22 14:11:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462503A20E7 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.84 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.84 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=o/a7pMZx; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=rOz4+J2I Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s8VfvttSV1A3 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8DC63A20E6 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9587 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2021 22:11:33 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=2571.60342c15.k2102; bh=K63vrBSe7UqyQi49X18ht8fU92OW0kuw3xMz0p3SgL0=; b=o/a7pMZxmHIS37Db4d5zuFODKIQOfnhIQUBVWN6eQzg0bV9z3s5muVwNPDEKx0bDLxKcD1+1H/qGzan+NLmzfkbW9IJNn9H+Ep3Aiibscy5p3SDEkqWKP/i2CZg2aQP3/SbVpsGkQYtgyo/CgJlc5dsvS7InzNghF0yN86t/Y/oClL07/R4vQdAF+FEayhzy2bW9vk9dYXfTFykvpOdzHaFYhzvrtet9AIuj9TWPIq9n/2+uLhs1xspHxq/BjsGhMvLHrsb4GUhwTfcZEs1Vmy2rV1/jRSrpCXOSO3mQy+a8Fqrb0VsO9WYgktC8a/M/NGbYxSWB9yFHpDQWmLKarQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=2571.60342c15.k2102; bh=K63vrBSe7UqyQi49X18ht8fU92OW0kuw3xMz0p3SgL0=; b=rOz4+J2I8j0cAkxoJqmuJSlQgfZng9oSL8aWNWVjY1TCefxIPHewDe9oa97RqIjNSTdunD+G0FDET1FgJetQfrM5c8M1J9WI8wb1rIlspq0ThATi7md0NvbnMgOnVFd5jocxzEcZlhPjI/IuMeVLJxMblQ6kJqf95bjr2SyoFgYFK9jXIg2/S+6ryi3LAUnZ0ks9IZTb7pvg2eDiV7IMIkVdfIYnZmZXYn7liRNeUx3cG55nOGLuvvT9NsGtk0305HAGfuZ15glu5PMr54Z/WV6+cvgUW6g/yLm4cAQzXDOPXxTbjl+7APmLdQVnyssr/LdmIj8SihTa3m4996I+6g== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 22 Feb 2021 22:11:33 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id C5F3F6E7D449; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:11:32 -0500 (EST) Date: 22 Feb 2021 17:11:32 -0500 Message-Id: <20210222221132.C5F3F6E7D449@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:11:38 -0000 In article you write: >-=-=-=-=-=- > >Hi Julian, >I gave it, two in a single
, a try but xml2rfc throws >this error at me: > INPUT: Line 24: Element address content does not follow the DTD, expecting >(postal? , phone? , facsimile? , email? , uri?), got (postal email email ) >And two email addresses in a single passes xml2rfc and IDnits but >results in the same "Meta-Data error found!" banner as with the semicolon. Can you check what version of xml2rfc you're using? R's, John From nobody Mon Feb 22 14:29:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B5F3A210F for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:29:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZnkAhP6gHCS8 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1999B3A210A for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:29:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id q14so60882193ljp.4 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:29:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vAcPBFm16zS6BMDW6ggSgRkyaYKSGUNO08l4F/L5RkA=; b=dk9QiO1y2+ne/2KjFeKkKHsr1i+KIs0V+wLqlCnEfffJZo+V6hrP61HFa/NX85f6Tg c8LAh7F/nU+pFULr4azyxW/m7xWvaJN4rJQ4YTvZVCARhPRewkxPuquL3qCaqQYxqeQR o9D1+fIrhsdM5vrh3PL0ISEWEoBL+XBaKtx/CyDJpMjuQl7FeAdrQmW1iSsl0W0KVpQF pySZnH1pPdgJSz9U1Z5z72zmai7xmvzGK6w9X1du3TMpnMint0+MyjyuyEXncujmlekS efpTkYJkV2sTXsjW4//KUnw3rKSQgzonurYkLheN8AwPWWVnkst9dlOZHtAsutUQMlLS o7RA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vAcPBFm16zS6BMDW6ggSgRkyaYKSGUNO08l4F/L5RkA=; b=m4eXLfL7NiUE6C/rvN7FIARfxG0XvGRfcN6rVdsAdOIjZe1dIqFXui+XqHAkNcJzAr XIgecC2eDNIx7hkBP+xXCfXGjpJpK8SRgFfR3HoCHbEPGd/TCvoGGX6xUFsU9RtsE6ez 1lpcQnEwsElC8093dCfT9vV4N7nCm/EuU8wYw1FIXFVBsyiF6qqW5YPxmpeEUUyinIA4 uz41rDQp3Jo5dBvcLQIZ2jEFOryuhtNl3wKjblwtUxlhosH07NK39zl/mx4pi+dX5Z9v fbqYn+2p1ngbe0IeNEkROylpeoLWLVVFPh6/UTEv94ce8z9BjMxFfnvQ3zrJ9InHcPqg mQtg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530UCGZjuy7kVs26AJWH88/dJr+gnmod1Me0yr66atZJH5R9OgdG yvTjEBdMqRvsNI6TUgPdIjNEGRVFYCot84XMmkgvbXrr2ZOsOw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzxOhdNmzNxOIzArVScFbHmCNrWl6l+aVxTzUWGq/Bpe7gNCATRNXjftm71cWZmVZnC6JhMcWy8pf5VuU4IZzY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:112b:: with SMTP id e11mr15047261ljo.431.1614032963027; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:29:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210222221132.C5F3F6E7D449@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20210222221132.C5F3F6E7D449@ary.qy> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:29:11 -0800 Message-ID: To: John Levine Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006ac55705bbf4552b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:29:27 -0000 --0000000000006ac55705bbf4552b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi John, it is reported as: Current xml2rfc version is xml2rfc 3.5.0 I'm using whatever is on the https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/ Regards, Greg On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 2:11 PM John Levine wrote: > In article < > CA+RyBmUrUJgwJ8JBTmhdomYA0aK02akvxsSH-s6KiQaRZsJ8kQ@mail.gmail.com> you > write: > >-=-=-=-=-=- > > > >Hi Julian, > >I gave it, two in a single
, a try but xml2rfc throws > >this error at me: > > INPUT: Line 24: Element address content does not follow the DTD, > expecting > >(postal? , phone? , facsimile? , email? , uri?), got (postal email email ) > >And two email addresses in a single passes xml2rfc and IDnits but > >results in the same "Meta-Data error found!" banner as with the semicolon. > > Can you check what version of xml2rfc you're using? > > R's, > John > --0000000000006ac55705bbf4552b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John,
it is reported as:=C2=A0Current xml2rfc versi= on is xml2rfc 3.5.0

I'm using whatever is on t= he https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.o= rg/

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Feb 2= 2, 2021 at 2:11 PM John Levine <johnl= @taugh.com> wrote:
In article <CA+RyBmUrUJgwJ8JBT= mhdomYA0aK02akvxsSH-s6KiQaRZsJ8kQ@mail.gmail.com> you write:
>-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
>
>Hi Julian,
>I gave it, two <email/> in a single <address/>, a try but x= ml2rfc throws
>this error at me:
> INPUT: Line 24: Element address content does not follow the DTD, expec= ting
>(postal? , phone? , facsimile? , email? , uri?), got (postal email emai= l )
>And two email addresses in a single <email/> passes xml2rfc and I= Dnits but
>results in the same "Meta-Data error found!" banner as with t= he semicolon.

Can you check what version of xml2rfc you're using?

R's,
John
--0000000000006ac55705bbf4552b-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 14:30:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E65E3A2111 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oHuTqxCerbTJ for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C7C23A210F for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dkxhv2J2vzyVc; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:30:39 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:30:38 +0100 Cc: Julian Reschke , XML2RFC Interest Group X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635725838.227165-0ca36c84c28689f5f33f2fe8ef250aee Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9FF645F2-7982-4B6A-935A-A96167BBF887@tzi.org> References: <48a9e368-6a0e-357a-75e5-9e1d3135a0b5@gmx.de> To: Greg Mirsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:30:43 -0000 On 2021-02-22, at 21:41, Greg Mirsky wrote: >=20 > And two email addresses in a single passes xml2rfc and IDnits = but results in the same "Meta-Data error found!" banner as with the = semicolon. I=E2=80=99m not following =E2=80=94 where do you get this? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 22 14:34:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6003A2105 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:34:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JCicKwYLHOfO for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E68873A21C0 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id r23so60952868ljh.1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Zg9lWiPAmsvtoYiTnZ7+6nOaN4ADSnR29+a1xrzg6i4=; b=EbbY5PdY9j6WVBYi2DYaZ/OICdYPRlw9h+YXx/mkGcahWePjgAGLNq8AsaPtLTQ2gF 62UjVYJncbhSuW9QqUkZ/xNV7EoE4YSubZlKiBoYjI+iOrvIbbNJiEPMFMuA1nhtVWKa POYcpT9y4GYJ7fTmwSBVB4SxwdTJg+7x/wsGnWPHt0CBDvJSonTO5IDNrLqHL3RAojsb MSqspnGxQSkntNd0P0ye5PL91i2YOvIffVMITklvunokrjIzBZgbtqat9NUyyZfDM4Rz nFISoWJi3WquOBKIte6C1bOIr1v7/Jow1Wro3aP4BjanJDq7bQ0Q4QCllHNFfzK1CF27 ruhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Zg9lWiPAmsvtoYiTnZ7+6nOaN4ADSnR29+a1xrzg6i4=; b=I1+DY7tO8+xJKF+kV/HcoQhd6NCyAV1XJHQ8RgFnk0vSCNDQz0euQ3H5KWImT/kfWV HLvzA7D+yCxgeMeQNuTSN8EJ4apfjeKi+tWIaaUv5nuLOGabi7oIOXt5NcCx/rqKUN6g mqt+LGsepRsOB+ayIAN/Fk0Zk2OoYSDCSOWZZZFMmr20W+jXGRqqt/8AmvPZq2EuRy4d S/Qf3THKWUYOahJDEtjFNOIRTgcJgVwull2ZiONQ50hkK3zlglNAZQ+HzPEjRimn5nRo QC0MdAXGjZJo/yPdaNb41jcQHXUe/N4gMxnDtYxX0yFesbDy/WoZto5dsNJHXOSorx0W 2CpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533rfS6ygX1vNCdD2M6dZ8/NqIpmvOXYEnUoE2TMUBjS+oGFUHNE RuqVwMLHrqWoTEju+F6QS7ZcHMpP4kOSG4/8Xl0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzLDH1HUVnsITN8v21YOP1jgEZx3+8r/BpEivyF57m9Hh0tMwIboT64GJtjB7Ezu3xF03v4z8+F8BhkIje4/Yc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:978c:: with SMTP id y12mr2105296lji.107.1614033251150; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:34:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48a9e368-6a0e-357a-75e5-9e1d3135a0b5@gmx.de> <9FF645F2-7982-4B6A-935A-A96167BBF887@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <9FF645F2-7982-4B6A-935A-A96167BBF887@tzi.org> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:34:00 -0800 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Julian Reschke , XML2RFC Interest Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000097307305bbf4667a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:34:28 -0000 --00000000000097307305bbf4667a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, after I try to use https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ Regards, Greg On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 2:30 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-02-22, at 21:41, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > > And two email addresses in a single passes xml2rfc and IDnits > but results in the same "Meta-Data error found!" banner as with the > semicolon. > > I=E2=80=99m not following =E2=80=94 where do you get this? > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > > > --00000000000097307305bbf4667a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Carsten,
after I try to use=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at = 2:30 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On = 2021-02-22, at 21:41, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And two email addresses in a single <email/> passes xml2rfc and = IDnits but results in the same "Meta-Data error found!" banner as= with the semicolon.

I=E2=80=99m not following =E2=80=94 where do you get this?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



--00000000000097307305bbf4667a-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 16:56:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C4C3A225A for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:56:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M7CChhMnBW8i for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6E993A2257 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dl0ws6Zp6zySM; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 01:56:13 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F55B3334-DF58-47AF-B26C-95F6F84E6111" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 01:56:13 +0100 Cc: Julian Reschke , XML2RFC Interest Group Message-Id: <50135A5A-1322-4653-B0B5-04356ECB405C@tzi.org> References: <48a9e368-6a0e-357a-75e5-9e1d3135a0b5@gmx.de> <9FF645F2-7982-4B6A-935A-A96167BBF887@tzi.org> To: Greg Mirsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:56:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F55B3334-DF58-47AF-B26C-95F6F84E6111 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 22. Feb 2021, at 23:34, Greg Mirsky wrote: >=20 > Hi Carsten, > after I try to use https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ = What do you submit? XML or TXT (or both)? Since you mentioned the word =E2=80=9Cmetadata=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99m = guessing that you were submitting TXT and the metadata extractor choked. Try submitting XML (only!). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten --Apple-Mail=_F55B3334-DF58-47AF-B26C-95F6F84E6111 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = 22. Feb 2021, at 23:34, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Carsten,
after I try to use https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/

What do you submit?  XML or TXT = (or both)?

Since you mentioned the = word =E2=80=9Cmetadata=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99m guessing that you were = submitting TXT and the metadata extractor choked.
Try = submitting XML (only!).

Gr=C3=BC=C3= =9Fe, Carsten

= --Apple-Mail=_F55B3334-DF58-47AF-B26C-95F6F84E6111-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 17:04:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905A23A22AD for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:04:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JmfrFjGRmB1l for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAF463A22AB for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id u4so61232400ljh.6 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:04:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EcSB7H+l9vwUqWQBnOape8pLUCOCr4h3btLb82QQp1k=; b=PxCJHr4DJe87MbryOHkWVQlqIytBCVrm0yOmtHFsRhWuODKM3bhxlRjMUp6b/GEt6r JV3lI9P82yVwgowmuXNx/UOKxHeeBrxjXuXqcuIIpKUG9ncxToueRSa4pZbb10E83zun 6TmfNDYZLNRMQmVzfV06NMjCcoLZryTjUlyvvu4p2rOxKd+fY77j12tvYNb48LFax1BY H3fY/oU32y2uTpRV1WksRREk3YF9MrrVNIJbyvpIym8hCRexW7mWtdwijhRvPj+wWl59 dyas/I0erY9xQ7AOJRhJaSifAnHO3+i93JYrMR35cgLwhBSAoMKZc1C06VrZK6DxeT4M nQiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EcSB7H+l9vwUqWQBnOape8pLUCOCr4h3btLb82QQp1k=; b=BeWs/WfrWcFEgvXFUxtM1NbbnEJL6KwJjjm+K2R82Nx+7FnwZvAUVZ4gafkqoNNTmD 07oSywiaqy+YC/5kJxXUgjFk+o0+9MPDBJ8suvnSq723vlphXC0+oW7FgiDWhxw7lrYB byQF2t9r4jBN7PgDCUIIY+lHChXJznH76beBTDRkn4jhvVgf3sahoXflqqzMl+Z4fXpW 205bJZ4aqX+gJHyOKJQI23lffniYEr509mHBES82jcsTK/ZvtqXAXMl4tYm3rcxPXejT kYsxC/PijHpmHv+cCE2omi6J2EPJWn6xMCtANJH3wDXJ0wFHdkwArcn7G3+JA+wSRG0T WMyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533+28C52jCpuuI/r4wU4c2fL2GC2yuE58l+Yrf3eXbHaKk7oml3 bk4fC3XOxBh9mBmhZanM5FacdF2aRhE5CcTJud8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxljE0A9Rm1kUhCiHx5LVW04xOKGClXT+An5JpiUS8Ra9jl66+N7uCcOzgLi1w0dHGLJDdDdp7e6VSV+acNGaE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:6c02:: with SMTP id h2mr16098821ljc.170.1614042286913; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:04:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48a9e368-6a0e-357a-75e5-9e1d3135a0b5@gmx.de> <9FF645F2-7982-4B6A-935A-A96167BBF887@tzi.org> <50135A5A-1322-4653-B0B5-04356ECB405C@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <50135A5A-1322-4653-B0B5-04356ECB405C@tzi.org> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:04:35 -0800 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Julian Reschke , XML2RFC Interest Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000029fd1805bbf68171" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Multiple email addresses in
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 01:04:51 -0000 --00000000000029fd1805bbf68171 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The gate got closed. Will wait to try it ;) Regards, Greg On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 4:56 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 22. Feb 2021, at 23:34, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > Hi Carsten, > after I try to use https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ > > > What do you submit? XML or TXT (or both)? > > Since you mentioned the word =E2=80=9Cmetadata=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99m gues= sing that you were > submitting TXT and the metadata extractor choked. > Try submitting XML (only!). > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --00000000000029fd1805bbf68171 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The gate got closed. Will wait to try it ;)

=
Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 4:56 PM Carsten B= ormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
<= /div>
On 22. Feb 2021, at 23:34, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

Hi C= arsten,
after I try to use=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/
<= /div>

What do you submit?=C2=A0 XML or TXT= (or both)?

Since you mentioned the word =E2=80=9C= metadata=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99m guessing that you were submitting TXT and th= e metadata extractor choked.
Try submitting XML (only!).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

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Fri, 26 Feb 2021 21:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 14791204C1; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 21:44:10 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: xml2rfc@ietf.org Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEX+i03xYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdACA4xvL/xI5dHedcnkfViyq84doe8zFRid9jW7CC9XBiI0QQf FgoAgwWCX+i03wWJBZ+mAAMLCQcJEOCS6zpcoQ26RxQAAAAAAB4AIHNhbHRAbm90YXRpb25zLnNl cXVvaWEtcGdwLm9yZ/tr8E9NA10HvcAVlSxnox6z62KXCInWjZaiBIlgX6O5AxUKCAKbAQIeARYh BMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AADZHQD/Zx9nc3N2kj13AUsKMr/7zekBtgfSIGB3hRCU74Su G44A/34Yp6IAkndewLxb1WdRSokycnaCVyrk0nb4imeAYyoPtBc8ZGtnQGZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4u bmV0PojRBBMWCgCDBYJf6LTfBYkFn6YAAwsJBwkQ4JLrOlyhDbpHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3Rh dGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3JnL0Gwxvypz2tu1IPG+yu1zPjkiZwpscsitwrVvzN3bbADFQoI ApsBAh4BFiEEwp+KDAHzXjTYFqpc4JLrOlyhDboAAPkXAP0Z29z7jW+YzLzPTQML4EQLMbkHOfU4 +s+ki81Czt0WqgD/SJ8RyrqDCtEP8+E4ZSR01ysKqh+MUAsTaJlzZjehiQ24MwRf6LTfFgkrBgEE AdpHDwEBB0DkKHOW2kmqfAK461+acQ49gc2Z6VoXMChRqobGP0ubb4kBiAQYFgoBOgWCX+i03wWJ BZ+mAAkQ4JLrOlyhDbpHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3RhdGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3Jnfvo+ nHoxDwaLaJD8XZuXiaqBNZtIGXIypF1udBBRoc0CmwICHgG+oAQZFgoAbwWCX+i03wkQPp1xc3He VlxHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3RhdGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3JnaheiqE7Pfi3Atb3GGTw+ jFcBGOaobgzEJrhEuFpXREEWIQQttUkcnfDcj0MoY88+nXFzcd5WXAAAvrsBAIJ5sBg8Udocv25N stN/zWOiYpnjjvOjVMLH4fV3pWE1AP9T6hzHz7hRnAA8d01vqoxOlQ3O6cb/kFYAjqx3oMXSBhYh BMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AADX7gD/b83VObe14xrNP8xcltRrBZF5OE1rQSPkMNy+eWpk eCwA/1hxiS8ZxL5/elNjXiWuHXEvUGnRoVj745Vl48sZPVYMuDgEX+i03xIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEH QIGex1WZbH6xhUBve5mblScGYU+Y8QJOomXH+rr5tMsMAwEICYjJBBgWCgB7BYJf6LTfBYkFn6YA CRDgkus6XKENukcUAAAAAAAeACBzYWx0QG5vdGF0aW9ucy5zZXF1b2lhLXBncC5vcmcEAx9vTD3b J0SXkhvcRcCr6uIDJwic3KFKxkH1m4QW0QKbDAIeARYhBMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AAAX mwD8CWmukxwskU82RZLMk5fm1wCgMB5z8dA50KLw3rgsCykBAKg1w/Y7XpBS3SlXEegIg1K1e6dR fRxL7Z37WZXoH8AH Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 21:44:09 -0500 Message-ID: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 02:44:18 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The toolchain to build draft-ietf-openpgp-crypto-refresh produces XML that contains: =E2=80=A6
  • PGP - Pretty Good Privacy. PGP is a family of software systems developed by Philip R. Zimmermann from = which OpenPGP is based.
    • =E2=80=A6 xml2rfc renders this to text as: =E2=80=A6 * PGP - Pretty Good Privacy. PGP is a family of software systems developed by Philip R. Zimmermann from which OpenPGP is based. =E2=80=A6 It looks like it is assuming that a period (.) ends a sentence, and that two spaces should follow each sentence. It is correct about the . after "Privacy", but it is wrong about the . after "R". :( This is kind of a dumb nit-pick, but it was noticed during a review on the mailing list. Is there a recommended way to fix this? What XML input would produce a .txt with only one space after the "R."? --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQttUkcnfDcj0MoY88+nXFzcd5WXAUCYDmx+QAKCRA+nXFzcd5W XFhmAQDcAVGK8luaJ2rceQjbvEVSvn1k7ZYpHtZ3G0nhmfAnaAD+NHMEpKq8Pc2p WGVWHCtYBg7/4Z9U/r1Q492kWQHnmgE= =Gpvm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Feb 26 18:54:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9924F3A07F7 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 18:54:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g5hbHBn0amUK for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 18:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34AA63A046B for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 18:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DnWM96SwBzyYs; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 03:54:13 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 03:54:13 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1B52AA0D-1FA1-41F2-8826-9C47C80D378A@tzi.org> References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 02:54:22 -0000 I=E2=80=99d replace the R. Z with R. Z. =20 OK, that may be hard to see (an nbsp, U+00A0). (Actually, it=E2=80=99s not there, as my mail reader swallows it. Wow.) Any software that consumes plaintext text should follow the age old = convention that a sentence is ended by a period followed by a newline, = or a period followed by two spaces. =20 Unfortunately, this simple rule has fallen out of fashion=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 27. Feb 2021, at 03:44, Daniel Kahn Gillmor = wrote: >=20 > The toolchain to build draft-ietf-openpgp-crypto-refresh produces XML > that contains: > =E2=80=A6 >
  • PGP - Pretty Good Privacy. > PGP is a family of software systems developed by Philip R. Zimmermann = from which OpenPGP is based.
    • > =E2=80=A6 >=20 > xml2rfc renders this to text as: >=20 > =E2=80=A6 > * PGP - Pretty Good Privacy. PGP is a family of software systems > developed by Philip R. Zimmermann from which OpenPGP is based. > =E2=80=A6 >=20 > It looks like it is assuming that a period (.) ends a sentence, and = that > two spaces should follow each sentence. It is correct about the . = after > "Privacy", but it is wrong about the . after "R". :( >=20 > This is kind of a dumb nit-pick, but it was noticed during a review on > the mailing list. >=20 > Is there a recommended way to fix this? What XML input would produce = a > .txt with only one space after the "R."? >=20 > --dkg > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc From nobody Fri Feb 26 21:23:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BDE3A0FDA for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 21:23:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TADAG0rqcoFB for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 21:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4274B3A0FD8 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 21:23:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614403414; bh=NzVOWzNt1oHHXJjfZj3EPQNKPGpKurmJIIjlbYQeo+E=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ONac5anAby3HT56KvhhabU28Ddlr9zKDt2qRwDzIOcxuxuEx3sjONn7VUACtrsDMV 6qAinKkqp0F2NjPLIeQdd26gjLj78R0AD3U0uulD7i8hPmo8gjuYn/oZhUP41bjsJ8 qAbw582vxnC9swYo/dJywFeHDIeoUkSvp/DZHipI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.136.5]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N8ofE-1luvJI1iYI-015onc for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:23:34 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <536e4424-3785-52f7-6702-df685220dec4@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:23:33 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:24An/GbjCz92/a35JzhgpSGnzyBvUDvA3Mi2D4wAHadjmO9q6dW xjzJlUQOqqY5UfIdbdA/z0B4SaipcBRy5Cmu+XRqe5LcWIKP3BbjpKqvFeT+WKeF7BfN0uh g6Qgc7OH4JYOVWZ/FubM1Izt97Tz5WZXLvWUDdPCrzev9HVj0pBGa+mJKtqQfBhIKiNyDeH X3aCrTiEb1l8jtze7KZdQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:SsTkYMauyzY=:3gKVXDusCBNGQuMjdw4tLs iHumjQ/R89H8fOQX7TuW8mHhj6F59EMMEnP0mAfkr7CU3+dI6YQ9zK8xU3JEFYU1tFUVXWIEh sk0ak0J7jB0XALRZVp+ruRDXaxKmlp6hFmG37i04Cb7qGhe/vn4KSQdzjSHijS9jBwDqz7idm uXyc2intjzlrbpOpV4tcee4XKuAaWj6wApYc9KTxY/5kOQPrQ6+wUa+gF1D9X+O3rr0Ho3PBI Y5JtWB4W36Iohu9n0E3raU2luzh3XMMCGfuPTkcXqdfNLO84qlvLwfr5vaTb6Gayn3bsWnT6s c/VhKBle23/fYRcBntysCOpb36Umm/DvQE7jpgpczzprnBQe1Czz1S8J0um733noFskI4Y7Lz cu6XzH8RfIaNv/dxs9It1kWVnQtXAjYUuo8R3lWYYXbSXX4xOVdWhfeCqFaGznnbMhEaBFuvO 6Hu6EKhy7ky2XY2qn8xx6Z+FuINBN67l2EPZfPFOlvlRbU14lrXD1mMd4GzTs+ocBtgODyiZu YWOq95/DXQTC8xRji7KJCcgxBJcdaZrNCSgDczlfVQVeAFzz8CWWr6rrcc1QoPCasajVu/uR1 heIWlkwB5PC+Wy7xtvs3dF6ygYyhlxc34IpdKYGOfTYukbA6X4kF1ZWupdDTJdzwC8quNWNdB Lae+GfmiSEeK2XZ3/qCSgtmkEB9GcnJWoNGOSYoaZ+Oz75/ueC1mbxdg9ahy/jn0HutfaBmhd 6e3OGNEuRw8eibjwR4aoBm6ZtguGuH1inKZ62e4iEpCzjgT9LKXrmge3vWDb+7ZmdRLluWJkd AODoOaH3w1iRn+4r8sYM+f0y4A1td5VzEWBFG97ZSD786d2Y0zxVpPTo0dDQ/2NLa2h7VjUSU J6/AAZiW6gqHNjlwHfpg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 05:23:40 -0000 Am 27.02.2021 um 03:44 schrieb Daniel Kahn Gillmor: > The toolchain to build draft-ietf-openpgp-crypto-refresh produces XML > that contains: > =E2=80=A6 >
  • PGP - Pretty Good Privacy. > PGP is a family of software systems developed by Philip R. Zimmermann fr= om which OpenPGP is based.
    • > =E2=80=A6 > > xml2rfc renders this to text as: > > =E2=80=A6 > * PGP - Pretty Good Privacy. PGP is a family of software systems > developed by Philip R. Zimmermann from which OpenPGP is based. > =E2=80=A6 > > It looks like it is assuming that a period (.) ends a sentence, and that > two spaces should follow each sentence. It is correct about the . after > "Privacy", but it is wrong about the . after "R". :( > > This is kind of a dumb nit-pick, but it was noticed during a review on > the mailing list. > > Is there a recommended way to fix this? What XML input would produce a > .txt with only one space after the "R."? > ... The simplest possible fix would be to remove the code in xml2rfc altogether. At some point, the former RSE announced that this would be the case for text output, but for some reason, this plan was never written down and executed. Changing the source to work around the issue in one specifc formatter is not cool in the first place. Adding a non-breaking space here will have the desired effect in plain text output, but will affect other output formats as well. What *might* be possible in this case is to put the author name into a element. (Haven't tried that though). Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Feb 27 08:09:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4753A0C7A for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:09:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ajyjb4yTZdl9 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from insect.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (insect.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20CA43A0ADD for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:09:33 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B975342A92; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 16:09:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-133-25.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.133.25]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C26783429AA; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 16:09:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.133.25 (trex/6.0.2); Sat, 27 Feb 2021 16:09:33 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Bitter-Spot: 68b939991148b335_1614442173028_2046141563 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1614442173028:2603131779 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1614442173028 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3C87E745; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:09:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=fCUbwaWUs8ScGq 2rtojtZJyUv5g=; b=bTUx8r7OoEZmoOVagK6VFudNMBsrooVj3ueEvSUk/kpx6B runeFg6YFV7JTjat4oOySgg4b0nFV1jEkdjGnG94sQAJoiUQDpoksiYCGw4Va++C YbF12aHt7byIiAd9L7OS6Jb21tikrbqJNA4Mi0ORgbLieaQ8ABuqaru3Ij6xM= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45E9B7E740; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:09:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:09:27 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a83 From: Nico Williams To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 16:09:36 -0000 On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 09:44:09PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > The toolchain to build draft-ietf-openpgp-crypto-refresh produces XML > that contains: There are only two possible correct answers, but historically it is impossible to get agreement on adopting either: - mark-up sentences, e.g., D. K. G. wrote a post. This follow-up might be controversial. - follow sentence-ending periods with two spaces (which does not mean the the rendered output must also do the same, as it could use a wide space instead), e.g., D. K. G. wrote a post. This follow-up might be controversial. i.e., `. ` as a sort of mark-up Instead many developers prefer to code up imperfect heuristics for sentence ending periods. If you search relevant archives (e.g., this list's) you'll find that this is a periodic discussion. I myself am quite used to always following every sentence period with two spaces. (In smart phone text input boxes that's a huge pain because, at least on mine they turn two spaces typed in quick succession into a period and space.) Don your asbestos suits now. Flame war incoming. Nico -- From nobody Sat Feb 27 08:35:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B453A0D25 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:35:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0XDwfZ2r5Zim for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12A8F3A0D20 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:35:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614443703; bh=23mgYHHNy1lYsPrHz9TkinozzWdmFpC6/6XPfzhbyy8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Ov8QGDFJ4BaRaeGqFp2zW7E4rSCbQ/jaEVrWsQB97me9JIN8y1bw6lX49xO6kVB8U j2ZE7j6lEa0+tioECydGSwSsB1YpxPDMzz8gHWbx6UxDTIzHE0m2z+IOJTTlg4Rdgw CJ4TdHxKltUxKz/V9E4FVkKW4ufFgeB0JIW5wEiE= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.136.5]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N33Il-1lxFfv3DO1-013JfE for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:35:02 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:35:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:WHSMrvLRUxJ0kQIdPSxZYO3K/5TSGSq52n887sq69g6rAs0x3un yNpG/wXoud+rnXw3hz8CDEbab0Ye/FVGbqG2dzWpznr9FgsAxYXvWQLVKV+6rIx3gYNVMuQ RqwNu7hWfpwbb0r9mSeAQ7yNWZA9IVMjtSQxnnwCaSOf9+iOQ0cfTgctTRtXG9LWLiDPngx spbZbUwjPLr7a1aFPb3+A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:NamSTeLApjI=:98l7LH8KyTZyhr6ARpXa1n jGnAY2jCWvfs/sAFq6FtQ2UdTFlBeGcWZIWr+Y/bAQnjBuqUm2tMqVFLShLBkhqV6cuDUIJ/m fnnLfOcUGl+ns2AEA5S0rYS4LITEdP2kmaHeBlSATjF0s4G1aNMUdhR88NVGjUDXv241UQUix EUzi+OVeADXc9QPGi4QJ3kUo+OtJb7hgXB5N/IaPRJTgQglCWv/dnvvt4KC2Hq0OL83VZLHGX 1B/pSx97nDbrYGWoB/D51LirStvadQiLIG7PyYBR+FrhSj+NatVAIoLOpEZd4k3SpUInAJzej 9owjjhYlToBASJKRs0vJFyAdrQQCJvYqt1K0AFPSf/3eYDcR6INnjypCN23VgL5RB5UN4na67 yOemJ3b3eYNb01w0zZZedsPo+PHMvkyLgjdT/HoTKEIqlwwaBIhmpp8RRQIDi9Wuf5Cnc3x3j +GGxyGzlCOeNA9Up76Hjx+HHCwdf499hk9GFZygQCdu2vur7WmedwUqu+M0JmFHEvP8gnAkc5 ZpzQe5I1wQLfgnyyhSTynSucOIsHpDlrbOxKHqgCg5ROVMqD5sxquFDkBSSMnBKwc+yiDrs5r LEVDbPdZR2qN79r5LTB/YDquJdQnW6ofYGE9BZzheN4n2/uSbMH5G+j70xqGBtFQjiR1j7o1V aS+6RYzXTXQFpCSQYbBQlkCKsvE/BYLqc1DqLYZADUdcjXFZeAfsGQRPOLFmRUpng1PqDUFbH YU2zeIKMkDZE5b3p/e4aMu+CGaJhh0fYMBfFHs/zqTkfaQOBNjsrRtOXpf1/1wcKsDmFr/8WV D4tvWFRHZDB7MiV56/Zon0VCl9RC+sYiyd4R/obcAa9cRQ6crsmRk6PoNmJzQTnDPdMLdD1Oc fKd/iMw/OG1N7tHOER1Q== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 16:35:08 -0000 Am 27.02.2021 um 17:09 schrieb Nico Williams: > On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 09:44:09PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: >> The toolchain to build draft-ietf-openpgp-crypto-refresh produces XML >> that contains: > > There are only two possible correct answers, but historically it is > impossible to get agreement on adopting either: At least three :-). > - mark-up sentences, e.g., > > D. K. G. wrote a post. > This follow-up might be controversial. I'd be surprised if people would be willing to do this. > - follow sentence-ending periods with two spaces (which does not mean > the the rendered output must also do the same, as it could use a wid= e > space instead), e.g., > > D. K. G. wrote a post. This follow-up might be controversial. > > i.e., `. ` as a sort of mark-up Tricky, because it would change the whitespace handling inside (where currently multiple white space characters are always equivalent to a single space). > Instead many developers prefer to code up imperfect heuristics for > sentence ending periods. If you search relevant archives (e.g., this > list's) you'll find that this is a periodic discussion. Yes. > I myself am quite used to always following every sentence period with > two spaces. (In smart phone text input boxes that's a huge pain > because, at least on mine they turn two spaces typed in quick succession > into a period and space.) > > Don your asbestos suits now. Flame war incoming. The third answer is: stop trying to. Optimizing the plain text output format really really is not important. Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Feb 27 09:30:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A960C3A0EF4 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9i_zsf4cUoVy for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hedgehog.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (hedgehog.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2369E3A0EF3 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:30:09 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E50A341ACB; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:30:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-10-164.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.10.164]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E2E6F341A57; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:30:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.10.164 (trex/6.0.2); Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:30:08 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Supply-Callous: 1b2fedb677f15820_1614447008160_880407726 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1614447008160:210219530 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1614447008159 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992B27EFD4; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:30:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=d6Vhs3/LgH/DKa LoV2RVfClk/rM=; b=GQyuzMtgQegCJQQJJ6gSAkNetW/ofuPW1GFVnr7LtQEOhk uh4j+lY1JvpfHXZ2VzbpOG4rB+fcIYIMnRMoDvXIRap9ncC2Us5iyYTXnxBlWKAo XxOGUqweFhDnp4p3UCSm2OamX4+fL5CANyU6ZIoVfiIEf2aeXZoX1b3lywEXg= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D6BCA7EFC7; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:30:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:30:04 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a59 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210227173003.GB30153@localhost> References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:30:12 -0000 On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 05:35:02PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 27.02.2021 um 17:09 schrieb Nico Williams: > > On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 09:44:09PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > > > The toolchain to build draft-ietf-openpgp-crypto-refresh produces XML > > > that contains: > > > > There are only two possible correct answers, but historically it is > > impossible to get agreement on adopting either: > > At least three :-). Your third solution is not a solution. It says stop trying to have rendered text distinguish between sentence-ending periods and not. That is just unacceptable. Ah, there is a third solution, duh: use a Unicode widespace space after sentence-ending periods ( ). It... might be just slightly less unpleasant than : Here's an example.  And here's the next sentence.  I had to follow &emsp; with a space because running on two sentences is annoying. > > - mark-up sentences, e.g., > > > > D. K. G. wrote a post. > > This follow-up might be controversial. > > I'd be surprised if people would be willing to do this. Right, no one would or should want that. > > - follow sentence-ending periods with two spaces (which does not mean > > the the rendered output must also do the same, as it could use a wide > > space instead), e.g., > > > > D. K. G. wrote a post. This follow-up might be controversial. > > > > i.e., `. ` as a sort of mark-up > > Tricky, because it would change the whitespace handling inside > (where currently multiple white space characters are always equivalent > to a single space). Is that XML or xml2rfc forcing that? > > Instead many developers prefer to code up imperfect heuristics for > > sentence ending periods. If you search relevant archives (e.g., this > > list's) you'll find that this is a periodic discussion. > > Yes. Yuck. > > Don your asbestos suits now. Flame war incoming. > > The third answer is: stop trying to. Optimizing the plain text output > format really really is not important. Not acceptable. Nico -- From nobody Sat Feb 27 09:41:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F323A0FFA for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:41:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uMJIvjHXaxRK for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A15073A0FDF for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:41:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614447655; bh=GQO59Zbcm7/nVOaPk41T9qv6XewSK/O4VW1bTT+uMow=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=TZhjaiYoT+Qlp6yXpLYNQ6sfOqShzsDwRr2JFaxzdp5BDsW8utr356o/iOhGgNKSh 9lFrXcGwpc0cLKRrRdUrpUP+j1ZUCqwn160Uem/7msGXi62gP9ntcaO8R9zKMckQcV LUUvAKpCrgBKk6qra8cOWvMItwy356libb4Gd3AE= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.136.5]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MbivM-1lnTSb0oiU-00dHU8; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:40:55 +0100 To: Nico Williams Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> <20210227173003.GB30153@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <11d84e59-6dd9-ade8-7b07-afb34fae27e5@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:40:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210227173003.GB30153@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:5L2mHfS5Xt9LqPePMGmmITlBVY6LxHAVwdcm2SFRL1KJWA9XTOu /7T2RVOZWMkS3lInZloiHei9DJMfy/8a2qemRVz6jTAZg9QnNYKCY5yqdYrnXkGMvU6sS54 NrXga2PKia51GYph6EFR3QLBhAcvD6LfkNsg0IbEPgImGlwYIjS2dKCTvA6M5qKBv19CvOx cZCB6xDFJi7r4oEow6++A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Wa2IFAB7Qg0=:abjB3In+R+xsjmZQh0tPHW UjB7w2jJ1s4OzKG8qfnSzIlcq0nn85n9tN71ewapI4CtXILB8Y1vfJ2+r7yxYgYSAHZbVoUvN A9LGqB1bacQDJ0obrBteZ5aiepPBJOFRB4kVmcOToJ3u71stC2NUyCYbYnFVcWAnTdnCJdQNC iQnNhsf54A53AqR6WLcBhH4GwPyQh7ndAVcQirGlXYHcH7MY5sCQH+eylXpQB1SYImuXA2wT6 7ft1IJukz0HNI8x4yRTgHWRQKNnzdQ5PBg/pu2dEsRKytXiqJKpuyLE8G0SmxI6aLwmLOSIgT miv7HB0TASihObn/ojM1HIN1+rhGT4YMbCDoo8NdC3b9dkM2vuOYoj/HYMQIstBHIgHYxpVyG GffM6HM/S040r9t+lFzDxPlw8yIbiiBXsk71nHhPccHkBzx/c2pU1dRquBgYiq4zP38keEsa7 NGUF1QTeAL99050Gxen+ogzVStKZl0jQs91YMwPLL3sfFm14tsRbFBuHjttkUzMyEm1pZqEwV c+9vzYb76Jc5L/gLHtMzmSkVRQEo4+z4FblAmKS9UIdEReNTmeofHyv5OI57s2pgk+QfRGiGj qajgF69JbLmasvh6QL4XfBtg9gwuBpSwk6JgR54VDHiBHpo+QezpNkUgOFHHOg8m6DD/Wu4oh jvxbl8HUOy6ALQD/edoBgZnuoWCkbnT4vzxoNSxVVok16opLJ/E8GusqnJmTlsRlxOKZOilw2 uIYn0i8XqUJPL7LVJ80FIWZmis7X+wV2oI98MIHmLXaeknoAD9AZsUNZ41vXK25K5EfH3uidJ SMJwGdIT4rlSbJuKBxDT3iJ4YpDHxkmXtxZSZTopVxCMKFlMpURtcEzoiszjFqScjPqomYD5T /Na+fhPGhLmTi2mDaF6Q== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:41:05 -0000 Am 27.02.2021 um 18:30 schrieb Nico Williams: > On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 05:35:02PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: >> Am 27.02.2021 um 17:09 schrieb Nico Williams: >>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 09:44:09PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: >>>> The toolchain to build draft-ietf-openpgp-crypto-refresh produces XML >>>> that contains: >>> >>> There are only two possible correct answers, but historically it is >>> impossible to get agreement on adopting either: >> >> At least three :-). > > Your third solution is not a solution. It says stop trying to have > rendered text distinguish between sentence-ending periods and not. That > is just unacceptable. > > Ah, there is a third solution, duh: use a Unicode widespace space after > sentence-ending periods ( ). It... might be just slightly less > unpleasant than : > > Here's an example.  And here's the next sentence.  I had to > follow &emsp; with a space because running on two sentences is > annoying. > >>> - mark-up sentences, e.g., >>> >>> D. K. G. wrote a post. >>> This follow-up might be controversial. >> >> I'd be surprised if people would be willing to do this. > > Right, no one would or should want that. > >>> - follow sentence-ending periods with two spaces (which does not me= an >>> the the rendered output must also do the same, as it could use a = wide >>> space instead), e.g., >>> >>> D. K. G. wrote a post. This follow-up might be controversial. >>> >>> i.e., `. ` as a sort of mark-up >> >> Tricky, because it would change the whitespace handling inside >> (where currently multiple white space characters are always equivalent >> to a single space). > > Is that XML or xml2rfc forcing that? People rely on whitespace being insignificant inside and similar elements. For instance, for indentation. So we would need an algorithm that can distinguish between what's itentional and what is not. >>> Instead many developers prefer to code up imperfect heuristics for >>> sentence ending periods. If you search relevant archives (e.g., this >>> list's) you'll find that this is a periodic discussion. >> >> Yes. > > Yuck. > >>> Don your asbestos suits now. Flame war incoming. >> >> The third answer is: stop trying to. Optimizing the plain text output >> format really really is not important. > > Not acceptable. I just opened a random ancient RFC I'm familiar with (2068), and it hasn't two spaces after a sentence ending. At least not consistently. So exactly when became this a "requirement"? And who determines what "acceptable" for plain text output? Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Feb 27 10:01:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347E43A113F for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:01:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xlr1Oggqhn46 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastern.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (eastern.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E931B3A114B for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:01:07 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351019221CF; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:01:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-18-39.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.18.39]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BE4F9921DCD; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:01:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.18.39 (trex/6.0.2); Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:01:07 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Bored-Harbor: 4b4b72442088534e_1614448867007_3932413419 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1614448867007:4224222699 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1614448867007 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DFC7EFC7; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:01:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=BRTF8H6hhqc7Jw RsjUH9fNZtUXU=; b=YAFWQZwFpToJq0/60bb3bd66SX+RWVedhwN4BcqFVErg4Z QZcaj/vJbQrj65CEsNn8lOK8F34oTuQz8c2JhURtMjE/PzjJxXFv4l6jkzgSL5cZ PhZs9yI7YPN8ObhccVKzAN3NNZdtYXS4akRjyCPNwiu1TbokBIIf1Vmbi2Of4= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01E8C7EFD5; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:01:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:01:02 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a59 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210227180101.GC30153@localhost> References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> <20210227173003.GB30153@localhost> <11d84e59-6dd9-ade8-7b07-afb34fae27e5@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <11d84e59-6dd9-ade8-7b07-afb34fae27e5@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:01:17 -0000 On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 06:40:53PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 27.02.2021 um 18:30 schrieb Nico Williams: > > Is that XML or xml2rfc forcing that? > > People rely on whitespace being insignificant inside and similar > elements. For instance, for indentation. But what makes whitespace in insignificant? If it's xml2rfc, then that can be changed. > > > The third answer is: stop trying to. Optimizing the plain text output > > > format really really is not important. > > > > Not acceptable. > > I just opened a random ancient RFC I'm familiar with (2068), and it > hasn't two spaces after a sentence ending. At least not consistently. So? > So exactly when became this a "requirement"? And who determines what > "acceptable" for plain text output? It's very much a thing in typography to follow sentence-ending periods with a wide space precisely to distinguish from non-sentence-ending periods. Nico -- From nobody Sat Feb 27 10:14:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DFD3A11CB for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:14:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n8VRASD850jK for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65C393A11CA for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:14:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614449644; bh=U7ofoDupUcv7DrOnBQpc0bjahme7N/GgrdenPlizqFc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Qtx+HzGMT8x6vy0I3rAGzVdVg5ktHKBiQ/AEXGCtY5W1FSgOqkXm39DlAFcqbf6Iy KX64T//bvFFONQFYltqrYAzHxOleHmQWRLLWwyVlkvzSABLqbm+XtxNvpm33xgJF4n T15KGu/+djC/UQ30VQiCNRaMq1iD8O3j4lahhVCs= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.136.5]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MdvqW-1lpg2H3wuc-00b4QM; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:14:04 +0100 To: Nico Williams Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> <20210227173003.GB30153@localhost> <11d84e59-6dd9-ade8-7b07-afb34fae27e5@gmx.de> <20210227180101.GC30153@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <89e13450-6baf-195b-9336-f14f140db7e5@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:14:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210227180101.GC30153@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:zBdGFroe8O+dJus/7TT2nqXv2YB85066EJF6pHypLqOGVNZm4pK VsfUr6J7q/jCAgOwzdF1r6O4L+WKnjywenXAOz5pHF9yNjhLZjfU6s7MQ7kQ/TBSZFu+qKM WV29kzndmXveM1C9z/+tg/mr5IMKvNR7lXUXAfVssqVPAG/BKCzCd2lwvroSHpMHOlxn7z0 XLW49ljnYR8LobHoYwepA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jxOQVNguR/g=:VTlbxTloScYjv4Q/3EJU7o qCW81vpCF2TNrBZOPrnnfaCGwR4bLgHcOHKAuniOell+Pqh9VKnn9vR37UyW2KpwtWdrD066n gHVc6aNcH9oV0h1XRR3ihFdXErwVhO9c5i3sy6i3GwjyPIKPSHWKdYH6oRGmWrs2yH/2YU5tB Z9j/79ARxudA92IIdSzmHni4dOSE2qM4M06mGTdRXlztiMj8jcciShw3FtWWMVPNroFx6Sjf/ hk7kdbi13mwD0EpVtg0FZGnsL2BBN+jdIu/Rd8l+Ia932u2gt3Sob811RQ9C63ippnue5h/Tu OAnIMCh/EAqs+pnJm5c6O79OXZ59XIdt7HCWRgo0YEGAZxJJPpivUsNdJENZWuoDeWKjgTcM2 JzIJTpCGsIX9Z4uqaHkZXNtOorRMRwGu7TZoYehJSZh/vJVNTUbDV7Flqb92xEXN5d+0/0JRl OpHOXwH8uYFacSH7SwwMC71svvWJey27/3YC47lcUVDK9oB6FDAB1Tz+hjSeVtYflNdNie7W7 DWPZK5ScTG2lOXTCFTgxT9qkWehtAjDf4TJfa7lzIRVlvnT3ero/V11Wwi5Yhjzl6AN2Innmo Frj1i0dxdzZa2ZDjvj17kE6PNMsBizQrIrAQ9HdGHYMdWjwMkTdj5U/t+YfQWK//GFmhFrEac kxclwpi+7gNfINeaB1g4zXA2fAk1kR5w2HZ/dPVvxiD6QmKjQ2vuYgfQ9/l6fgxXF5uu+37DN S1pHYlJXHSSHChksejPqMfe3X1HSeX4i3UppGnd8SXNaj2lYa9itpL0OjojQVb4LsaNvA06ks 996oPyhmGDNzwD1+GtyZk543swXE0EUrt7lfnnqVi2SIzFFbQ+1yRn/DjY4ulyPKEHIJ1cE2N GP+15QH7NOBsFgv5YMPg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:14:13 -0000 Am 27.02.2021 um 19:01 schrieb Nico Williams: > On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 06:40:53PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: >> Am 27.02.2021 um 18:30 schrieb Nico Williams: >>> Is that XML or xml2rfc forcing that? >> >> People rely on whitespace being insignificant inside and similar >> elements. For instance, for indentation. > > But what makes whitespace in insignificant? If it's xml2rfc, then > that can be changed. Whitespace is insignificant everywhere except in and = . People rely on this. Think indentation. >>>> The third answer is: stop trying to. Optimizing the plain text output >>>> format really really is not important. >>> >>> Not acceptable. >> >> I just opened a random ancient RFC I'm familiar with (2068), and it >> hasn't two spaces after a sentence ending. At least not consistently. > > So? So it apparently has been "acceptable" in the past. >> So exactly when became this a "requirement"? And who determines what >> "acceptable" for plain text output? > > It's very much a thing in typography to follow sentence-ending periods > with a wide space precisely to distinguish from non-sentence-ending > periods. If you search for this on the web, you'll find lots of discussions about this topic, and I don't thing there's universal agreement on that. Fpr instance, see . In any case: now that there are official HTML versions, the "readability" of the text variant IMHO is not a big concern anymore. If you want something that is easy to read, take the HTML or PDF versions. Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Feb 27 10:34:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D783A1219 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:34:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fgQI4C5RFtUP for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:34:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A7F03A1218 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:34:04 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33A7680E73; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:34:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-17-38.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.17.38]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 39600680E2C; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:34:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.17.38 (trex/6.0.2); Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:34:03 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Robust-Imminent: 54e9cf780c507593_1614450843468_3162119504 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1614450843468:217518791 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1614450843468 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A8B7EFD4; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:34:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=2MSPbfy8Q8Melp sS39/tBaRSY/Q=; b=aPKPsOJhpDyMTVSrh41gDcHEMkMwLo0OQzkE0AdC+Phd6u 9tKSE45A7BblJXNf8zAre9Fvs/twSmIMsAdCf8oH9UtPXsdcWF2rmEWrg3FuhbWT wqV6m4sjUtGFs7rK3lKHI8/k7anJDE7kbQm2MnRpA1RpqqH8j7gbnbmgwUZPs= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 275C37EFC7; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:34:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:33:59 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a59 From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210227183358.GD30153@localhost> References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> <20210227173003.GB30153@localhost> <11d84e59-6dd9-ade8-7b07-afb34fae27e5@gmx.de> <20210227180101.GC30153@localhost> <89e13450-6baf-195b-9336-f14f140db7e5@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <89e13450-6baf-195b-9336-f14f140db7e5@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:34:07 -0000 On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 07:14:02PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 27.02.2021 um 19:01 schrieb Nico Williams: > > On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 06:40:53PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > > > Am 27.02.2021 um 18:30 schrieb Nico Williams: > > > > Is that XML or xml2rfc forcing that? > > > > > > People rely on whitespace being insignificant inside and similar > > > elements. For instance, for indentation. > > > > But what makes whitespace in insignificant? If it's xml2rfc, then > > that can be changed. > > Whitespace is insignificant everywhere except in and . > > People rely on this. Think indentation. Ah yes. So  . From nobody Sat Feb 27 10:39:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89C63A122C for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:39:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gNTQSKuMvwNY for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCEE23A122B for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:39:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614451151; bh=Kmw4TWvVlLIxKx2LuP+C3y4IoXsMoAF0YgSiNB2AenM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=iwINsEV6FmLEZoT2B3ut+GWr3U69Fd07nLwb9LpG+51Vngw2rQkjPsU0jMpDe27TE oHVZgSsf0o79KjU3PB5kbIMhCsn6PYEmGGQWUI3bIfQ+h5j4e5qEzOoLYivVjLxsCw DDobg570Kcej2UpmLVNJF17jvwgoULoxM9/Ri8EY= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.136.5]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MVN6j-1lPnvE0Lnr-00SNGs; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:39:11 +0100 From: Julian Reschke To: Nico Williams Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <87wnuucjra.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <20210227160926.GA30153@localhost> <3494e8d8-e9bd-6c38-61f3-0c31d066a61f@gmx.de> <20210227173003.GB30153@localhost> <11d84e59-6dd9-ade8-7b07-afb34fae27e5@gmx.de> <20210227180101.GC30153@localhost> <89e13450-6baf-195b-9336-f14f140db7e5@gmx.de> Message-ID: <9366fbd9-f117-b120-04dc-91f8ed80b56c@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:39:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <89e13450-6baf-195b-9336-f14f140db7e5@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:78x2KAbC83XUhfO91Vt8UILH1Xb9GiukMNvfX6C0BJsKAiTAWFK 72LV0M6DEI4rV2TjF4BcWV9B3BWIW3ZKMnQv2cyShsjdl3VXUd5+NufPnWzAu7wNDjyayOp FzwecVywi3RzeQTtkQM2MHgXXv4XxpOPfhFGRr3F2Q0Duc0jPPaHHRcCuEUVXHfc/6PhVdx xFZIJReN3rEAWKgUMKt/Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:J8Oi+HXRogs=:cW/HMOlGFsG16q2y8gr5pB vlwGmHUdUKxgUP+lQXjwPXzERln9xSFtzt/W2Ftf8F4VicNOH3qUp3KC+orcOG0tNzhtWYJxW A+dW08f1KlSozvRmlB5mcn+9VazV1m/BYZc4vCjax/JUka6DCu5B7RIB067p3kxzSWPFKbrpN NHwWjj4YQtcvZek0eUX8Ysr9Ur+LhjNhSBvFCWm3H+LOzQ8+IsnVApnCIJAb3EesHu1wy5/IO LzzRUOqutFiKOrkmT2lWSqLz0Mw+7PIIeICrZ8iHwKCsdXMSSxOZivY7/UM9GmG+8JVOKJtKi 9eDEgZfjUITHf7iyXTfHU+aqkoxLsLBzbw3rSI/BGzcLQCDmaxW13jpbNNgnWjy6qRgdmr3zn uNNHeOQf5/DqWhU93qIZA9iNXUAuQfXkQ1kx+M1Q4EV5MFh2TOmg5s6TZAtYPYKc8r1ClkyRe elDhHDD2F1fNBsBcZcM5Htl/ZmEEcFRhyeQhmoDTyAQ9BpBKMIRTUT7YY0sMzyIoAmuDScj0c N7falFdaE+aUH7sowbzZJiZKMk39bAHzBSx3lyYX7TwGxIp9rXWWZFG6wuAg/msypgx1/mgfc KRr7T1jyGZ4kynqF3Wxp6UfG6mL7sPK+AUsr1z3bIId6FmW5TwBaI+uuQ5Wts+zIFd7RN4Wu0 qJyTePt90gFaevTTc50eEu7LzXq/WV1RkQFwL3Aw5YNZm53Zr4IcCMfQTI4m2v6unAAxba8Jp xHkiTK15zd36XikemaTkPUAQbwGL9riQ27WEbYDtp7CyN+rZosMrjyzaaPBvwXzwzLek7gKBr 9LaPMLbKTz7XASO3ldakFJCpNUjwzqtqw9KNut8a6Z4A0UTMEGXKGWT/ewtaF4IvVsIs+SBtX kUyWuWGJvdSa97IFns4w== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:39:19 -0000 Am 27.02.2021 um 19:14 schrieb Julian Reschke: > Am 27.02.2021 um 19:01 schrieb Nico Williams: >> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 06:40:53PM +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: >>> Am 27.02.2021 um 18:30 schrieb Nico Williams: >>>> Is that XML or xml2rfc forcing that? >>> >>> People rely on whitespace being insignificant inside and similar >>> elements. For instance, for indentation. >> >> But what makes whitespace in insignificant?=C2=A0 If it's xml2rfc, = then >> that can be changed. > > Whitespace is insignificant everywhere except in and . > > People rely on this. Think indentation. > >>>>> The third answer is: stop trying to. Optimizing the plain text outpu= t >>>>> format really really is not important. >>>> >>>> Not acceptable. >>> >>> I just opened a random ancient RFC I'm familiar with (2068), and it >>> hasn't two spaces after a sentence ending. At least not consistently. >> >> So? > > So it apparently has been "acceptable" in the past. > >>> So exactly when became this a "requirement"? And who determines what >>> "acceptable" for plain text output? >> >> It's very much a thing in typography to follow sentence-ending periods >> with a wide space precisely to distinguish from non-sentence-ending >> periods. > > If you search for this on the web, you'll find lots of discussions about > this topic, and I don't thing there's universal agreement on that. Fpr > instance, see . > > In any case: now that there are official HTML versions, the > "readability" of the text variant IMHO is not a big concern anymore. If > you want something that is easy to read, take the HTML or PDF versions. > > Best regards, Julian That said, RFC 7322 has: > * When a sentence ended by a period is immediately followed by > another sentence, there must be two blank spaces after the period. (). That text is gone in draft-flanagan-7322bis-00, dated March 2017. I'd love to hear the current TRSE's position on that -- is this change going to stay? Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Feb 27 11:15:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231E53A12C4 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:15:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=Kw8jmO+n; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=t6WESfsV Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ju2fdj7CfauB for ; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:15:50 -0000 On Sat 2021-02-27 10:09:27 -0600, Nico Williams wrote: > you'll find that this is a periodic discussion. har har =F0=9F=98=9B > Don your asbestos suits now. Flame war incoming. I'm really uninterested in starting (or participating in) a flame war about anything, much less about punctuation use. I'm just trying to get the draft i'm collaborating on to render properly and to not screw up how someone's actual name is written. I'll go ahead with Carsten's U+00A0 proposal as a workaround for now, i guess. --dkg From nobody Sat Feb 27 11:16:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091863A134A for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:16:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=tEADHioI; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=ubxJ5Lcc Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yq9hnGrSdnnk for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:16:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DA9F3A132E for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23318 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2021 19:16:44 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=5b13.603a9a9c.k2102; bh=fowGF8OFZoRFD+mh7KhtRMnuw1xLlOKiMoTTdCSxNa8=; b=tEADHioIOXzmq70GtbzYMlgEwxLsfr2OyY0SkxpGs1nOGavlgekEjceyyWEtySJ8f97BpZ2LMcn+uFZWemaHBQ0I+lRCXJ2J8URU7ERtxhl0/VvGXqzqroPdS0fq+LqcDmpTgZFEOWL93wNBQBe7AG2QZrpDFuqWOXzm//IafLAf3CEjIXZ4jf8uH3alMy08lpbVmFlTCysNUtLCtNCmxqB8L1hpMrjpKfzD+KfP80u/4UGhUq30K270V74Xd2FOpMAOd3yiQ00RJOOIN+s8UjSPTy2RIj/BI3ea0lKQE9GiYhHVbRPBu0dtZYi7UOvSS0G7rlJuL1jH0yaDFp/c1g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=5b13.603a9a9c.k2102; bh=fowGF8OFZoRFD+mh7KhtRMnuw1xLlOKiMoTTdCSxNa8=; b=ubxJ5LccILCp05WQ8swY8lEC3H8LtEJPOgcFmR5wlIImp04JqojAGHqhlnDkfksojbb+DNYk9J8v/Ynj3QpV3+EEhb1TKoFBwu8UIG4EWoe0EHLEIJMeS7N0N0HGuaH4MdUtvYU7WWP+8FtewNOZZrCdiGPcdfLARzMTnC1cJWND++kpFOtb+zzSzZNBFsGlJU1VUMlMkzGKstfUIWrYlOBQ/qGtLnwOD+VUFerh2qYOLW26zzdj4QsI1x95PBcleDji7RwX2liK15S5zdbMVUYXyE0YIwXchDO8SKXAx2SXVeVvXpOPoOpSwpKd/Ko6Ws6Hr+O6af94oL4a+SOGvg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 27 Feb 2021 19:16:44 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 165F76F105E2; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:16:43 -0500 (EST) Date: 27 Feb 2021 14:16:43 -0500 Message-Id: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: xml2rfc@ietf.org Cc: julian.reschke@gmx.de In-Reply-To: <9366fbd9-f117-b120-04dc-91f8ed80b56c@gmx.de> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:16:57 -0000 In article <9366fbd9-f117-b120-04dc-91f8ed80b56c@gmx.de> you write: >That said, RFC 7322 has: > >> * When a sentence ended by a period is immediately followed by >> another sentence, there must be two blank spaces after the period. > >(). > >That text is gone in draft-flanagan-7322bis-00, dated March 2017. I'd >love to hear the current TRSE's position on that -- is this change going >to stay? I don't know why it went into 7322 or who removed it in the draft or why. Personally, I'm with you. The extra space is an antique tradition from the days of manual typewriters and I don't see any reason to worry about it any more. If you care about legibility, read the HTML version with those nice proportional typefaces. R's, John From nobody Sat Feb 27 11:40:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E4B3A1306 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:40:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wzWkGnD639dd for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58CE93A1304 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id e9so5319632pjs.2 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:40:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sZIpmyEUySSgE4syN1uB2nEv/Lp5BAbxylv2tV05aLw=; b=WvvkVnp2xYNO3+H2RsP2JH9XfJpnYaZefw69eTvmVk/kmkA8prkfeq42fESw1Ry797 PNH/+E4TLJv5/hi6XybL710C7wnaOvH1MxreA8SjiQ8CVo9odH64uq3vr2OuQy+r6yny hvD3M/NglkdXw4N3cPnBuLQXpgdW6sueFLAahZKMQVwh8K06VcG2iqCzeUkbMTC//gTS Bp1uCRVjviccFKdQ0qBXh3BHFyfcg0qnYTZHPCtZA3i8GYraU9wM8zzw3H9wJDy505fj B0k5UsDcA5jeCdVw61Es6MODdFDEqIIJIFXdPCosQJaZiXRCONfBQkTrLRljTghubrMv toOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sZIpmyEUySSgE4syN1uB2nEv/Lp5BAbxylv2tV05aLw=; b=nqiRoqxgS0FzNYvyuH0ldI3Nv3X1QbBnI8E50AUQCD2kMzUV/XSHyK1sjM9MlfhPZ2 YGkpI7UxqMecOvJl8Pfm/jxmrWgGwiDNsjpTgsdeFhua9j4P9D10s9svP7cYm5+cHey3 1INEVQ0mdBQ8U1MZgBDZUTIld1Ah9cXNW7lrdNs8kDXaGNrIdNvSWQgq3R1bJklOl6k5 eZFSmAlow6FkBh8lhp+ySdVTGsqvd/owF9b3lJC8FOEX3T7KLUJfg3cUdJthSemNueQq zZzjNGvNgKC+E0un4ozi3EVv5b3E/fM2K+fzxodpUkV86xs16ncWBpLVQJzQ/IRUkUXT O9uQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cNddCGBBdMeLUxjkcZmpyWdQhloloBhOQZgBJBzSCqPedq7G5 914/pao7tdLuYM35gcgmJtQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyV1U9FaFwdzeoC+HMiBO1yIt/R8Zet6Lce//fom8H3IC3d+KJISOCJl3sjNuRxbmhmWqfp8w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9304:b029:e4:12f4:bdb0 with SMTP id bc4-20020a1709029304b02900e412f4bdb0mr8651501plb.55.1614454808666; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y63sm5806117pfy.68.2021.02.27.11.40.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:40:08 -0800 (PST) To: John Levine , xml2rfc@ietf.org Cc: julian.reschke@gmx.de References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <215e73aa-1602-3f43-af3a-bd26f4ecc778@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:40:04 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:40:11 -0000 On 28-Feb-21 08:16, John Levine wrote: > In article <9366fbd9-f117-b120-04dc-91f8ed80b56c@gmx.de> you write: >> That said, RFC 7322 has: >> >>> * When a sentence ended by a period is immediately followed by >>> another sentence, there must be two blank spaces after the period. >> >> (). >> >> That text is gone in draft-flanagan-7322bis-00, dated March 2017. I'd >> love to hear the current TRSE's position on that -- is this change going >> to stay? > > I don't know why it went into 7322 Inertia, I suspect. > or who removed it in the draft or why. Don't care who. Why? Because some previous round of this exact same discussion reached the conclusion that: > Personally, I'm with you. The extra space is an antique tradition from > the days of manual typewriters and I don't see any reason to worry about it > any more. If you care about legibility, read the HTML version with those > nice proportional typefaces. So unless inertia rules the day, why don't we advance 7322bis and finally remove this pointless rule? Brian From nobody Sat Feb 27 11:57:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E773A138C for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:57:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e8HE0xU8ZQCN for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:57:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15FF03A135B for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.123] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dny3j2kBVz105M; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:57:21 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:57:20 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, julian.reschke@gmx.de X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 636148640.859409-8e4aac68323a5677ea09c510be7ce79b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> To: "John R. Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:57:32 -0000 On 2021-02-27, at 20:16, John Levine wrote: >=20 > I don't know why it went into 7322 or who removed it in the draft or = why. >=20 > Personally, I'm with you. The extra space is an antique tradition = from > the days of manual typewriters and I don't see any reason to worry = about it > any more. =20 That statement is often repeated, but sentence spacing actually has = nothing to do with typewriters (except that there needed to be a way to = emulate it with typewriters, which is the reason that it is often = reduced to =E2=80=9Csingle space vs. double space=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 not = the choice we have today). This confusion may have influenced the = discussion, as the perception indeed is that sentence spacing is a = remnant from typewriter days, when it simply was good typography for = centuries (actually often applying a number of different spacing regimes = after semicolons, colons, and periods). I think we also have data that may warrant a discussion about the = implications of the direction fashion has taken here. Even Forbes [1] (whose take on science warrants, er, discussion) did not = manage to totally dismiss the results of a study that showed the = benefits for legibility of extended spaces after sentence ends. [1]: = https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2018/05/09/one-or-two-spaces-after= -a-period-that-new-study-cant-tell-you/ As I hinted, the fashion is moving away from this legibility aid [2]. Anecdotically I can say that my reading speed and comprehension benefits = mightily if document authors have taken the care to insert wider = sentence ends, so for me this is simply a loss of quality. [2]: = https://www.instructionalsolutions.com/blog/one-space-vs-two-after-period > If you care about legibility, read the HTML version with those > nice proportional typefaces. Somewhat ironically, =E2=80=9Cproportional=E2=80=9D (i.e., = non-monospaced) typefaces benefit way more from wide sentence end spaces = than monospaced ones. In the latter, the wide period is already adding = some visual spacing, which is lost with the thin periods in = non-monospaced type. =20 Typesetting systems have of course supported sentence spacing since the = 1970, and, e.g., troff hat different settings for spaces between words = and spaces placed at a sentence end (.ss setting, first and second = parameter; in serious typesetting it was customary to set the first to = 1/3 em and the second to 1/2 em, i.e. 1.5 times the inter-word spacing). = But DTP may have put an end to this great period. For mass-market tools like MS-Word, the legibility feature of sentence = spacing may simply take too much effort, and we may want to decide the = same for RFC production. But that doesn=E2=80=99t make it the right = decision. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Feb 27 15:51:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F633A163B for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:51:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=hA5cP0gE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=K+E8gcoM Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lIm3awFm8dx2 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A31DC3A163A for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 78556 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2021 23:51:31 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=132da.603adb03.k2102; bh=Grc8tWfBtzZIf78J8LkLFvzpqLo//7gzFfZO8151POk=; b=hA5cP0gEfC2y/X6Y45x1KJFSjltRvr9bLivisAiE+yc2eICkhcFphkweRXRZCDRuLtpfrPob4jJRYIC8Fb603UOuxsfpOnPbJpbEbB50qXX9VGspa32iIJE0Q/28d3haFa5OZneWKUdkz+c2kPa/0S9HhDJI0/CZg+Nrw0I/PHYwxha8kqzB9UBBruH4gNH+Yvj5LwDN4o4IcWIvY3wRLsrHxv2epznf1UdNU5lj7U6yGLM6IxO7EKDCSIjYHi+FX1Ftg3kkMa4p+50I/U+yR7tm6a5xlYOsff9X6P/bsrP38XF3Et5S7qjZIr6I8vFd+TPXbAGmU6p2GmCxdMndLQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=132da.603adb03.k2102; bh=Grc8tWfBtzZIf78J8LkLFvzpqLo//7gzFfZO8151POk=; b=K+E8gcoMw9PUGX5LtFiJvKfkc+g/wJ5vEnXTysa77DLzxWJaY/BQw24SzdzVxXP4zI/S+3s0cBZN78eMbX95I4Ayy4bdveJl8lt4xbjbuEaqL0UnxuTr0DSBkXbvAjWHZ0VUGDceKnsB7J33vAELJsSvCOc+btx5WdiY/Wy5/2gXUrTgTrW7qtDpm8y1EPICyB9twwUjJvrG18TeHx5RRI/9CYI4i+DHL6zKhPrVxgxgFCpYm/yX1rjPzc2sWvE4IP/GBjS2rXGx6n1ndtNxiwKBdlCt4nMagsx3xijq3Mq1mUj94Sz7+jxoLj2Bykq+M/eb+33IjBINhZL4h3vF5w== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 27 Feb 2021 23:51:30 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8414A6F14F9D; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497BD6F14F7F; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:51:30 -0500 (EST) Date: 27 Feb 2021 18:51:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Carsten Bormann" Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-789368613-1614469890=:90226" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 23:51:36 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-789368613-1614469890=:90226 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sat, 27 Feb 2021, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Personally, I'm with you. The extra space is an antique tradition from >> the days of manual typewriters and I don't see any reason to worry about it >> any more. > > That statement is often repeated, but sentence spacing actually has nothing to do with typewriters (except that there needed to be a way to emulate it with typewriters, which is the reason that it is often reduced to “single space vs. double space” — not the choice we have today). This confusion may have influenced the discussion, as the perception indeed is that sentence spacing is a remnant from typewriter days, when it simply was good typography for centuries (actually often applying a number of different spacing regimes after semicolons, colons, and periods). Well, yes, but most of us came to it via typewriters. That's the rule I learned at a summer typing class on manual typewriters with blank keytops in about 1969. Having been through the publishing process in a lot of books, I can report that no matter how good your tools are, the only way to typeset stuff of professional quality is to do hand tweaks where the tools don't get it quite right. For a bunch of reasons we have decided we're not doing that and I would prefer not to say oh, but THIS tweak is worth it. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly --0-789368613-1614469890=:90226-- From nobody Sat Feb 27 22:32:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA21A3A07EB for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:32:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qTJM6dkNvoIm for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B96C13A07E2 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DpD810MJrzyS1; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 07:32:01 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 07:32:00 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> To: John R Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 06:32:09 -0000 On 28. Feb 2021, at 00:51, John R Levine wrote: >=20 > Having been through the publishing process in a lot of books, I can = report that no matter how good your tools are, the only way to typeset = stuff of professional quality is to do hand tweaks where the tools don't = get it quite right. For a bunch of reasons we have decided we're not = doing that and I would prefer not to say oh, but THIS tweak is worth it. For properly doing sentence spacing, what is needed is a way to signal = sentence ends. For 50 years, the convention in keyboarding manuscripts has been that = dots at the end of the input line and dots followed by two spaces (here = we are actually using two spaces =E2=80=94 in the manuscript!) are = periods (i.e., sentence ends). That works exceedingly well. Authors that keyboard carelessly don=E2=80=99t get proper sentence = spacing, but no major disaster happens. No tweaks needed. The discussion came up because xml2rfc treated the dot in =E2=80=9CPhilip = R. Zimmermann=E2=80=9D as a sentence end. This is a mere bug, and bugs can be fixed. I=E2=80=99d send a pull request, but... Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Feb 28 00:40:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BB63A0D8B for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 00:40:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CAbE8DrNzOw0 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 00:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 201C03A0D87 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 00:40:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614501616; bh=hr0ywj2yTqqjbKRQ3Oq4yJCba2EzH8g1/LEz84s8ViY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=OzaNboQ/Ow9I84l320Mk6Kaerk/Krwqzwp/PvKgen9ZqHY9ufIK4WVLffPpIpIFs0 YcAgf8Q6adsnlpTjHbLPH1+EMhQCb+VFBx8+EvmuKD90a5JZdkdOT7nJXF/COAAux9 flbPTK9GKYEMLWu0mS0axTUl1/iOfj/wj9bgb0+s= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.129.137]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MK3Rs-1lWAJF3VOQ-00LUZN for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:40:15 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:40:13 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1nnwoJ62cKAWqLj+Azy0BFntj8W+Z7giJE3QlCNvDTGMTOhlcvf 6Z55cNnox4mdbHTyGxWWgRgc+QrqELAZjdjsq1mRKlcbXTHDO+tE65Je17gRm9F9L3bmI76 sQEgjbK6pd2HYHjMaqLEpBkCiZEvgmkZ97enC/8pIJP+lKiHmGqEef4wNPw2MKu/RAPgb/z gxG8+/WGgQtVe/a41XdUA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:UvRc0ZJyy7M=:ezKcGQmUQyLWrdRCtE1Qc9 dIXLc1w+emGYgzy43QskzKVnC6L712xiHLsXiaB8sL1fhaXXr5O0mxwcWJzsIO1+ExASvc4U9 OYDy6dK4dDapFA1tMT72sIwW75NZIKowVEtOAb0QwC8tk8Ld+yUgNP4abg9RAF2bKYKwPgMD0 yYE7CT9R6RWIrTGzUMBSq2hL2r36YsqyLxVX9nrJHcfKSE5GuxcQyNVB/qqCmUDkDTB5Gs3qd bAk2wHjoqLBsYwFNqq5FHut0sRUB7lzJvVWpUC65It5pEcZQGorKeUhvUsFKnnPRgEGb7fQnJ ot/FZozboWsmwj9DKcsVcCAAvQu2Xp8Nru+ly45fKm5NTrjXdvMX3hSkjqQIBjRPEa2k19aqC R/6U0sFVkaD/4a4pjoSF221VWTUrtlMp85tLj+NQ2zAsaOTk/ccx2NPKmMNWSgrhv2iUDOPWg b0APiHI2NUuhkp4tOng+PQ+TLJqlgT9lL+9abGqrx0npPn3pV0ERCdzhJlykKv3EXsuuO8F7I OwZ/WW9o06swklFNRKWuycS0uMGUbqt12jN9k+08roNs8qiiLj21UelA+troJIVcZbfNegvvA GV6p0vp/FX+bl9FgL+Vgo2LFZ9O3cjbqm7Tz/bHSErJ6YGG9/x/pHJDGg1zGtTR+/jGtpV4Xj CcuWbNgnqMxoQ9c8Gapns7KnydhjPOdxI9uJ+2HYqQ0h+8QPbGgwzpgWw2hAVNQcFCnDAVqOX ejez/1sde5xu6hUMtSSuyVcavK35q1Vs71HRAVZjCO+SA0lTDsMeeQMmRN8oQu4o9h5Yw5Qgg dz/k2Ph5QChGv0+4ehgVoQF/AqArH/SJX6rh2A/nJt8yuOko2QtzjeFZwkIbfaUlcKe3qbUfa ngLmfik8iboJIORfF7Fg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:40:22 -0000 Am 28.02.2021 um 07:32 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > On 28. Feb 2021, at 00:51, John R Levine wrote: >> >> Having been through the publishing process in a lot of books, I can rep= ort that no matter how good your tools are, the only way to typeset stuff = of professional quality is to do hand tweaks where the tools don't get it = quite right. For a bunch of reasons we have decided we're not doing that = and I would prefer not to say oh, but THIS tweak is worth it. > > For properly doing sentence spacing, what is needed is a way to signal s= entence ends. > For 50 years, the convention in keyboarding manuscripts has been that do= ts at the end of the input line and dots followed by two spaces (here we a= re actually using two spaces =E2=80=94 in the manuscript!) are periods (i.= e., sentence ends). > That works exceedingly well. > Authors that keyboard carelessly don=E2=80=99t get proper sentence spaci= ng, but no major disaster happens. > > No tweaks needed. > > The discussion came up because xml2rfc treated the dot in =E2=80=9CPhili= p R. Zimmermann=E2=80=9D as a sentence end. > This is a mere bug, and bugs can be fixed. > I=E2=80=99d send a pull request, but... I have opened wrt the discrepancy between what rfc7322bis does say (or actually does not say anymore), and what xml2rfc (in text mode) attempts to do. Furthermore, it really would be good if there was a plan how to progress RFC 7322bis (while making sure it is aligned with what the grammar can express). A place for issue tracking (maybe at ?) would be good as well. Best regards, Julian From nobody Sun Feb 28 04:52:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06AE93A1596 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 04:52:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jMoQU0ZjLSfm for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 04:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CAD73A1595 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 04:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.123] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DpNbL0xNxzyTn; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:52:46 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:52:45 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 636209565.5248441-fcef59aa787e68d4d5a3191e70f2e3c6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 12:52:51 -0000 >=20 > I have opened > wrt the > discrepancy between what rfc7322bis does say (or actually does not say > anymore), and what xml2rfc (in text mode) attempts to do. >=20 > Furthermore, it really would be good if there was a plan how to = progress > RFC 7322bis (while making sure it is aligned with what the grammar can > express). A place for issue tracking (maybe at > ?) would be good as well. If your intention is to amputate functionality, I think 2 needs to come = before 1. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Feb 28 09:14:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6583A196A for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:14:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=oTT+iFOy; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=IwYYsXjF Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LXPyFXR0HrCr for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BAA43A196C for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 78086 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2021 17:14:28 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=13104.603bcf74.k2102; bh=ttf7KgWhCWTYqRl2MkzvM58grKtelFDqNK1/ATC837Q=; b=oTT+iFOytgpTv8VMNDsrBS7w9OrZMxJVeQkdsVsUofo8k1NxQ35yHE+bQZOCAz+8SI6PIgiWCCRGD4XxlxAAo3PQ4WnpwRc9M7/hc7wnBy+/7DkQO8TYAUiEGTK9lnmBC0zreR/zXk9tldloNbBFvYwnr4TM9dhtTv/z6uWqLsHWv6FMybTBanDh7oz54/P0bjWe76PnXJCjggR/QQ3XRe8+D3M/UWsRnvtIfVj1WMuR0ujCILHi0Uw9KiffE3IvkaZYlAVTdWXz05/O/4JLQyRdbXyoKkTsimshq0Xmq5BjG/deaCuw2A43s5Q1d0GU1Yz3ISKz7iUCoPPIijRXgg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=13104.603bcf74.k2102; bh=ttf7KgWhCWTYqRl2MkzvM58grKtelFDqNK1/ATC837Q=; b=IwYYsXjFO8QIqe8GU61bc78OxCgvi4THQ8AIDsJWff+vSuQcJn4B3msY4C+cIb9WccDQaOWurfYp2wS852otwKztO2a33sBao3GbiQ2PbyxtpDdfMzlRe40rsdTqHg8DsnmecVM7tsN4SJt6+C4oS3WFuV/or5OFULFcB1rQy4+hGhhn1YVQf2mf5RGFvvO5qjTlVTKLNa6FniBZhDXvGQECI/aaH5F00Uj7iPn3Kjlm8v4ryPZCJKUNNBg9BS+7xUSLVrQK515YVpB2LgsUx7YU4B+NJ4Nq5Q5FZeXq73ghPCEBlVWVARBH5y6/aWkX/StzfV5aC8tnQiICXcyrFg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 28 Feb 2021 17:14:28 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1D7096F275AB; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 12:14:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBE76F2758D; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 12:14:27 -0500 (EST) Date: 28 Feb 2021 12:14:27 -0500 Message-ID: <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Carsten Bormann" Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1810996299-1614532467=:97350" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 17:14:34 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1810996299-1614532467=:97350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT >> Having been through the publishing process in a lot of books, I can report that no matter how good your tools are, the only way to typeset stuff of professional quality is to do hand tweaks where the tools don't get it quite right. For a bunch of reasons we have decided we're not doing that and I would prefer not to say oh, but THIS tweak is worth it. > > For properly doing sentence spacing, what is needed is a way to signal sentence ends. > For 50 years, the convention in keyboarding manuscripts has been that dots at the end of the input line and dots followed by two spaces (here we are actually using two spaces — in the manuscript!) are periods (i.e., sentence ends). > That works exceedingly well. I don't see how that would work in xml2rfc where elements don't preserve spacing. > The discussion came up because xml2rfc treated the dot in “Philip R. Zimmermann” as a sentence end. > This is a mere bug, and bugs can be fixed. It is a hard bug to fix. You can add a heuristic not to treat a single letter followed by a dot as a sentence end, but it's wrong sometimes since the single letter word "I" occasionally ends a sentence. As I said, you can make guesses but you can't fully automate it. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly --0-1810996299-1614532467=:97350-- From nobody Sun Feb 28 09:38:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194273A19C7 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:38:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BXidMNNF0y-C for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE9E23A19C6 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:38:32 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FE2680F4D; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 17:38:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-133-25.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.133.25]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E585A680F12; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 17:38:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.133.25 (trex/6.0.2); Sun, 28 Feb 2021 17:38:31 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Madly-Wide-Eyed: 640f5cc81550b18a_1614533911183_3076056641 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1614533911183:1791913227 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1614533911183 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DCE97E4B5; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:38:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=A0p/OQxLHU2j/SzjGRmvS2ZfOS8=; b=lnPxLrDZbuk /iFZmg6IYBVK/n5rhl3Vd6xoi8srJi6EZ6ZJCFSUsoHMi2+pjK35GG3DBy6obwjh qf7ewgKO1mOUwq0m1o23yMOCH8O3lGj8iCGyDuB7z78YUHOd5GeznJ3I1yw0FKc0 5Skk2B5t0B4HoQJlGzQw+BE5YkL+yj3A= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B1E3C7E4AF; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:38:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:38:26 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a68 From: Nico Williams To: John R Levine Cc: Carsten Bormann , xml2rfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 17:38:34 -0000 On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 12:14:27PM -0500, John R Levine wrote: > I don't see how that would work in xml2rfc where elements don't pre= serve > spacing. Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace characters, using   is an option. In a pinch we could have an element to mark the end of a sentence (). > > The discussion came up because xml2rfc treated the dot in =E2=80=9CPh= ilip R. Zimmermann=E2=80=9D as a sentence end. > > This is a mere bug, and bugs can be fixed. >=20 > It is a hard bug to fix. You can add a heuristic not to treat a single > letter followed by a dot as a sentence end, but it's wrong sometimes si= nce > the single letter word "I" occasionally ends a sentence. Indeed. "U.S." is a perfect example, because it can appear in the middle of a sentence or at the end of a sentence, and you can't even use the case of the first letter of the next word to distinguish because words naming principal U.S. insitutions are capitalized after "U.S." From nobody Sun Feb 28 09:54:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D833A19F8 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:54:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=As/uX06r; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=S2AIiJBM Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BUo4LLA9QI9y for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 803483A19F7 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 84421 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2021 17:54:46 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=149c3.603bd8e6.k2102; bh=qj/5IOiBL6QKZE6a3FsgGm5JzH4qLBNj61Iwhr/aChY=; b=As/uX06r3eQ/8ZKAiTTDRRRr1MBmUSehWkqar+aMYoR0gmJyi8lB+zr3QlhzBmjZlIz/0b6mP9SnZIIGZGMA4Q3g7aa3C8DoiP8EdblmBQTh91snkVsyr4fEajZ5qIFV+G2oC7sndu2SUZhoqEFXJdvD+1JjK/I9QtwxH8zp1lAXPG/f5bOPvkh014DlJai4qGVwyUbGe0puiYenT0i24W5Lpwa0gQvVxhtRJGLfMB8vk+B/BBq161iv8+cJ6En/G1yrI7fiD8cx5L4dSVTdn1E/KVfKzN0NIwc8waLqWCqVaPW31h6vLHLnwJgkdDC3rmumAWYLX+QXfT8i5lPP6w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=149c3.603bd8e6.k2102; bh=qj/5IOiBL6QKZE6a3FsgGm5JzH4qLBNj61Iwhr/aChY=; b=S2AIiJBMQd9Wv2detW9euSa3H9wLBFfow3TtwpDxEOFcZFmvj5LgR3h0wUQlcQkmS3tcB2DCp96A9cnxTUrpJI+UlXZ8ZPyOwDiOMiPDEcbCFP0pEIkzNn8vDTWr7gExtI+2eKSl2D8XTOQTM+UMIS67+SG6DrJgKL4a440Z8swx5CmiopD85qI3nRy5HoM+TaueLmwUFavEOw04uQQ9RMvYCcdEHPyN9OWz/fqdSbdtE0qLM4KMmDF6dsHeSKHGeIA676S2n5cFP1KgBdfiLj9403FtmE54Ft5+XGASliB60EG1oIZOPfdvFDTZJ64zCdsR02EYt0FV6xb5KaMkVw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 28 Feb 2021 17:54:46 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id CEBDA6F28332; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 12:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1D06F28314; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 12:54:45 -0500 (EST) Date: 28 Feb 2021 12:54:45 -0500 Message-ID: <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Nico Williams" Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 17:54:50 -0000 > Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace characters, > using   is an option. In a pinch we could have an element to mark > the end of a sentence (). At the end of every sentence? That's, uh, quite a stretch. Are we sure this problem is worth that much effort by every author? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Sun Feb 28 10:00:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719353A1A09 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:00:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x8cpUGyBPPMh for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastern.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (eastern.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D491A3A1A08 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:00:23 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86C1921500; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:00:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-17-38.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.17.38]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 34AF3921113; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:00:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.17.38 (trex/6.0.2); Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:00:21 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Belong-Vacuous: 67c07fb71740ef67_1614535208582_2392085483 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1614535208581:3702742047 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1614535208581 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996D77E4B2; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:00:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=LBm16lukkpk0qt DfaPlvbOX/dpg=; b=K+RHS2ff6x3QRo7GJCYmBbfjQZ/EBnIV14Hi3MHySoIYiA TIBkJk2KEKdrb+aqOpWAw3MpDLupmJIsMmBCyo6DJe9QEx3DNelYAgQHgUU/jqG/ n+Yunyr4zbY+1b1m1miz//9D8w9cb6fYqY/hi1OjqqeeUdAnwipYaoQGIDPjU= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a68.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 528B17E4AF; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:00:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:59:59 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a68 From: Nico Williams To: John R Levine Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210228175959.GF30153@localhost> References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:00:26 -0000 On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 12:54:45PM -0500, John R Levine wrote: > > Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace characters, > > using   is an option. In a pinch we could have an element to mark > > the end of a sentence (). > > At the end of every sentence? That's, uh, quite a stretch. Are we sure > this problem is worth that much effort by every author? If some such markup were only needed when the sentence-ending-period heuristic would fail, then its usage would be very rare. Maybe non-breaking spacing could be used for that? From nobody Sun Feb 28 10:50:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D056F3A1AA3 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:50:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opi30X_QLmNM for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C80633A1A9F for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:50:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614538199; bh=NLXLY7P8FIw2xuHMX7+5sKbp8H9jeLAOhkkXHKEzsTk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=UO4A5n+NT6DIAutumu2zUm+X/PmU7PV7TJ2fvYooDYP0yrYVsR1+V9gL4Nb/dQ9ts iWUPhNJQGalFuyV9eQgB+/JcZAmo6pwV264MHfAJ9zDLIYmgHEEOI0/VnoxKtvSEzf 27vb4FeEXdJkYBEPycPx0xfEeOd7Cwg7egNgW/m8= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.129.137]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MnJlW-1lhl5900yS-00jMGd for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 19:49:59 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> <20210228175959.GF30153@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <631d06e1-1f33-58d6-6661-4da0fc18a2ef@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 19:49:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210228175959.GF30153@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6KDIm0J8XINNeEhG5A1BnNitD//5BzCajENxn1283wFywsN9nXr ZTZ1IkRJyXlUGqMwdTrn9iD8BYkqsXlWVlQ22hWmvcfIZyVQwhPEHkdzMrH7fEsjbHVbIe2 NoN4k2hL20Z+vsjgfVEqo9Vd4EOksFZy0FSXVmkOcBcymWr/XjRTTDrTkcqUIXBSowrurPn YmsE7tHPJpDkiMinE2gAw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:hmaxg6fBFyg=:mcm3YGMhF+Nygks+pJYliR az87LqxvqFGAQfEJVtWuLxMR3sy/YeSkmvgE9XOFttg2rh2hCsSjoRwPLdXHaTcrpwo6dDMPj eBiZF1kUFw8XMU8d64xgG1qcOjnGenUpvelReY1eHk9PpIo4iIsgBSf2fDHiAgkDBf1f95vUw Ld0Vu9P9FFHkChtHKl/67CpJBQxI2R4fFp2/SQONeLPsv0BsVIA3i5idGwbYJMoO2kYSuBVhV XFR4Kz0Ghr0usXZt0puI84G3X/8t/YHGXD30aXmNNdtGDAjqSlVME0t6JBNDkKQU9EAdxprIw rjbBvNXVEOAuSBknI7yXofQexCjAnE/id0rHQLm0H4KNlgKoeTfRPJaqRUxsbvk2jPqgp4ZHn U/9oU4nrescGkiWkBfGutp2aIFFl/k+Hw5TB2o3XIzIfDt+Vr72c/Ugy6zzmkqEmUGFZTyNJp X/wzez0B6xdxBCLvXAgK26ZpaqDZ0USpjJVp9R6DmzkCX0RGoA3QegIrOIN2imAujYNpWek8t He0AzzyIxsOb4OVnAgJIELVGmGvvfCJEzz3oJ0y9kviWh+vGCUjpUwlZM+Q+smhJA7InhnyDc 8JXqs7BFPvcZAqBxdZKwMNkiLD2fIi9QUa4C69ouRvxCMRNGjJpP7kqaGkk1IOKdiFENiyrlD 1O93BfAJu/FcJm3tZlCCOSVj7Mu7jJ3ObhIlF1QeVG2Qb7boRieQEy/HYlJlDrLaI3HEXLbXq y5UPpv2T5E9h5SDEnFNTMNGuUKvPm8v1Jyo2P/CHhPhQDy4t8UlCkypfkJl/LYwUz/z2aSWvQ M0sEXpHL37nmqlno6yQuBnDkN9SSGu7zS9TkDAsDe3kO/OLckYdwNpfGvdSk3CNTh4n4jfZH/ nvh8i1UziqmRcE+q1DDg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:50:05 -0000 Am 28.02.2021 um 18:59 schrieb Nico Williams: > On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 12:54:45PM -0500, John R Levine wrote: >>> Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace character= s, >>> using   is an option. In a pinch we could have an element to mar= k >>> the end of a sentence (). >> >> At the end of every sentence? That's, uh, quite a stretch. Are we sur= e >> this problem is worth that much effort by every author? > > If some such markup were only needed when the sentence-ending-period > heuristic would fail, then its usage would be very rare. Maybe > non-breaking spacing could be used for that? Nope. Please let's not leak "optimizations" for text output into the canonical format. Assuming we continue with that 2SP practice (in contrast to what 7322bis says): there are other alternatives, such as a config file to be supplied to xml2rfc which continues known exception strings. Best regards, Julian From nobody Sun Feb 28 10:56:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5F13A1AAC for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:56:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tUyel4z6uMnx for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7998A3A1AAB for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 10:56:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614538598; bh=RZu1wxBk6TTv4mW2qEu8mZKZ2pq6ejfwzmU0ZLszkvg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ji5z8NTM8fbK/zt7iE2T7/u9kunX7Nnv5XkJVxZSqzPrE80PASHTILAWs0I1G4x8b yXH8tTYPnEFAzr1rjmVPTngm6ZcPwT5O/dGjqFdzc8C3xsDKxMwSeZy1jNRkLfTTPm 0lPtVjy/UG5hf1bvMtiipq2qqiBMjyFX+3AkjVoc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([217.251.129.137]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N2V0H-1lwGsr0Q2B-013urz for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 19:56:38 +0100 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> <20210228175959.GF30153@localhost> <631d06e1-1f33-58d6-6661-4da0fc18a2ef@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <1bba4da7-114d-ed7c-e1ce-39518704e777@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 19:56:36 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <631d06e1-1f33-58d6-6661-4da0fc18a2ef@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:pF/KrBlHNXU89d2aYlea9CgGslEAPF2XIq/nyeLGC5ytpnsYvqe bR4BX9bbE4BKMarWMZqw0uY/q8x2PsFfaFULh+8VRhuVueaYQzThW010hf19TlFISJjq6t7 RcJF0nXMvgeEJbkRlLNKCkbfyLiaBrFO/F3tv9/rnHT0oOfJftoPJ7QkZZbn6vyrLrqZWnl VxkSED/PnDGu9yD0MO5ew== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:hE+UdHMSTog=:pKjGhB+fFRZxrQxbB2+CVS U/e5F5kk30X4zLtQSOsjgdlibwWPeWQdR3fGbFQC4eFbfXzdf8J+r0p93JVMqFM4c+zIyM33j jwDbYy/DVVAIgRP23KG4tG/iAqwcEBZ5gHrwos+gqMxdsDPFkZKb61y6FtCq66qo8frFuL6XT ND8bB8PgrO89VCv92nIJfwAhufGHAdkfm5gNDYsETT8WrEzO6JuEYoNYqK+lDPOp/Zyx4ag6q siyKGiyvIBzEGwVIYTjKt3k3o/rad8s+XtUWwmKfRdduzw5Tf0tJpDgqJVuXNuXltQi7HIn+V +g7e373iHJ79DS2jiGuUSR1L7r5D1h9GDxGfMlktMgVGL7lJnBTdZk4onw15Zy6nncUAtQ5Tr XFo707pRAf8sxNeBPLHDLSDSIrtF7gx4ZVoyelxoW4C8sd47aczmOeEkxDK7sBAqZgS3JNRmY V/LkdGmY3d2X8K7EMuaiOiEEIb9Es8wLa30ZiK1xHqnoW3gg1IGsba08pIeCHwoysCjQomBD9 haieohmZ9H/BIIgxe80XzVYXbCLj3oPohlHJ/w2x/MdQVz5//sBqcBRedz/blJ4o4ihQ4HhAb BJiJQ/ZosOjZnebep9BCO6yDdMGbhn8Ph95Rfa4tNU6AiTZc9gTeaWqnP8iULSt+mcKcL/3D4 Jh1MclTbAnJZsfOujDoU/4mzziLvDwWduCMZTM+e67lFLEqmLJrImrtAk+0YB+LAZStJb6w1d KczAfjLcV/ggpwQAThF4OZ0+f2l/xXpeB1H1X/Oa4di/CSneJ35GkTRkfM9ck9rkUSIfNmN3o gK1nVlueYpXg6pc0rZOr9qAXLkyyhPIysKQYNCbSov4hbQVRfHa3v3urzd/4Uwq5hpIHx058Q flPRtqfTohsMxY4+G39Q== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:56:42 -0000 Am 28.02.2021 um 19:49 schrieb Julian Reschke: > Am 28.02.2021 um 18:59 schrieb Nico Williams: >> On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 12:54:45PM -0500, John R Levine wrote: >>>> Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace >>>> characters, >>>> using   is an option.=C2=A0 In a pinch we could have an element = to mark >>>> the end of a sentence (). >>> >>> At the end of every sentence?=C2=A0 That's, uh, quite a stretch.=C2=A0= Are we sure >>> this problem is worth that much effort by every author? >> >> If some such markup were only needed when the sentence-ending-period >> heuristic would fail, then its usage would be very rare.=C2=A0 Maybe >> non-breaking spacing could be used for that? > > Nope. > > Please let's not leak "optimizations" for text output into the canonical > format. > > Assuming we continue with that 2SP practice (in contrast to what 7322bis > says): there are other alternatives, such as a config file to be > supplied to xml2rfc which continues known exception strings. s/continues/contains/ BR, Julian From nobody Sun Feb 28 11:52:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823C53A1B86 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:52:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KLHS1z_rGl0r for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DED8C3A1B85 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id d11so8576269plo.8 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:52:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vv9oHiCN70mGJ+qGgUCSauaA/4OeEv9ZZQjQhKL66J0=; b=ACYRZLnzfVxCiia4wJaE1NbtZ8alqgBN+kAktf2hsC9sOJT89gh1xC5eKpiryl0VpU xdXrASF1A/vT/yRiKYxN1Nku6+ngKXpa6NdMuASrcfcKjnwmwmWTIBdRNKXtvC72aorn hz0Lvda9EBeFr5/RS3TSmRzEgfsuRrlqm+KIahGMKP8zITK0hY3GD4g0lU5EEa5CHrog WQhb9VQPdKbgCPXzzYNTeyK3Sd1bpZHDYyXjEUqi7fsYWvCSuDxYZR8x7bhZ5XqB9UI2 P7hHw+bTWFTTj5ObcJ0U9YamIdbKQszg1zoW8EtJRr1msrHGqmxOPZ0H2ScXjpZs6DnK zhxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vv9oHiCN70mGJ+qGgUCSauaA/4OeEv9ZZQjQhKL66J0=; b=fsGL0Z4XG7VzGWkWhSWpfELu9Foq0jVa+NJSL/SnNVD6eHHixH8luZNwkExSoQkCsu cH6E7Lae0Fp16e0UyEpRn0W/E0GlXn+A91uv7RwmVkA5NRUcHBjoYNan7eKy1zGnfP5q cPAmSQlkBWIsAowseh6gBRzZkT9meyF9ti8PR5bR5dbQ173lw6dc3VAD80BR57D8rcl/ Uji3VU3MiNbF2XVOOhJwywW6LB8aMdIiRdqOK8oa792u6+nLpLf7E4i2+QmFAIVwoSPp Q3ehgf1P2oWDW7abV8PlmFoPr2hXrytkSzHRkEW0L0+epL83omI+7AzJeYKsO5m6s+rm YI4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532f+WM7zx1/dt81YeCsCma6hheI8nuzbXw8quwiShuYsjrYxEaG wayKh3ANxsivWpTz4s/Fo5nlEd7+j3WESA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJD5Eq+0pjZPsxw+wZkoNUKqz7Q5c9T3dgm++i+kMLobFNn1Ttnk0Sv0ITXaqBmxjrjMp9Qg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4f85:: with SMTP id q5mr13238317pjh.42.1614541921023; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o127sm15202681pfg.202.2021.02.28.11.51.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:52:00 -0800 (PST) To: John R Levine , Nico Williams Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 08:51:56 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 19:52:06 -0000 On 01-Mar-21 06:54, John R Levine wrote: >> Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace characters, >> using   is an option. In a pinch we could have an element to mark >> the end of a sentence (). > > At the end of every sentence? That's, uh, quite a stretch. Are we sure > this problem is worth that much effort by every author? Since we're designing on the hoof here, I suggest you'd need a construct like . But much simpler to scrap the double space rule. Brian From nobody Sun Feb 28 12:55:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F113A1C49 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 12:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.103 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=alum.mit.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z5TrjgoXnBc5 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 12:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM04-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr690041.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.69.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BED483A1C48 for ; 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Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:55:51 -0500 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:55:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: b61dff03-18f7-47db-df6e-08d8dc2b3bdd X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: CY4PR1201MB0152: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(39860400002)(376002)(396003)(136003)(346002)(36840700001)(46966006)(47076005)(83380400001)(31686004)(786003)(70206006)(956004)(356005)(2616005)(336012)(478600001)(36906005)(7596003)(316002)(70586007)(82740400003)(53546011)(2906002)(186003)(8676002)(8936002)(86362001)(36860700001)(31696002)(82310400003)(26005)(5660300002)(6916009)(75432002)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2021 20:55:51.8172 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b61dff03-18f7-47db-df6e-08d8dc2b3bdd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL2NAM02FT027.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR1201MB0152 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 20:55:56 -0000 On 2/28/21 2:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 01-Mar-21 06:54, John R Levine wrote: >>> Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace characters, >>> using   is an option. In a pinch we could have an element to mark >>> the end of a sentence (). >> >> At the end of every sentence? That's, uh, quite a stretch. Are we sure >> this problem is worth that much effort by every author? > > Since we're designing on the hoof here, I suggest you'd need a construct like > . > > But much simpler to scrap the double space rule. Two things are being muddled here: 1) two spaces at end of sentences in .txt output; 2) how two distinguish sentence endings by xml2rfc in xml input. There has been *some* discussion of using two spaces in the input for (2), but it doesn't work that way now and there are many issues in changing it to work that way. It isn't evident to me that it is a serious proposal. *If* we had a reliable method for (2) then I doubt there would be much issue with (1). The problem is that the existing method for (2) isn't reliable. I haven't checked, but I presume the current problems (2) are also exhibited in html output. ISTM that the real question is whether authors will be willing to manually annotate the xml input to indicate sentence endings. I haven't seen any proposal mentioned that I would willingly use on a regular basis. I would rather suffer with the existing heuristic. Thanks, Paul From nobody Sun Feb 28 13:59:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D91E3A1D26 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:59:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0G7tyXjXW3rG for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0249D3A1D24 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id l2so10295948pgb.1 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:59:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ImU8QA5qhM5vPCz46lQO/BEHK1tRwBeb/g/tmi2w8m8=; b=mRTsd7S0DWKFxEDw9i96woHEXBZi5onb73KnishxnglsgEGbXPePPNUsjMQJ+oN3wE ukHnwk8QZBT4Xcr7gShzlvtz8WK3Mk38nSAMjJ1FbFFe+5pF3bAjwROX2IEdCCwhYbzA eT3MN1VV4BN4M8Bk3IjhUFciBq54rdYeWe1o0NIZ0xtacphP0p1NH53eA9XAUy/4DMIr xIKv5Zqv45q+AixH7MyCsTAJoQsqXgcDQnDvM5lH4lEopnnyyyhyVCdKWsM8OLWiih5Z OluJSYyJjqZzczUZ+PY9e8rNphtz7ZeEBG6Q9Nw+eCHl4T5wCjh/ygQewfHexj3N+OLT OIxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ImU8QA5qhM5vPCz46lQO/BEHK1tRwBeb/g/tmi2w8m8=; b=GgCgIgi5+sgokp4Hvj8A8/cAAoIoj8IIGgcC+fou+Bcs41f5IV5TxH90S1fbcJIROj XzkCJfoGQhQ5uJR9ipzbPyhqDn/QmPoQRfk/EaX7vQz4CG89iuMEWoEJtqDNeNTi3wip Gsy3A/lxmn7bW5+wzzJt+KX7hvV2qGGlg4QlDV2lAWI62GF6P2+KQFZF3+qLcox6s4no +O19hOnHtbhLjihnz7ILCAydwydctRw6gNN7b8oJOjEJzLtxTZNjB/RnaV4yGLPgaK1j KYFpgOwKAMWezrOIeqF8jKqGcEukhky9Y01cWB/AOCKWV8IdRxmUJ6EnrrT3tzuiKnIl GkbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532M2moy1eMQ4RsuLeFXgxjH5lT6tzK0xbKIIyAEkBDuOZzCZGyQ KlKx5qRR1kIpQ7f9kahAFwN6/DRmtyUykg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxWdXEP0wpCD9d+h5H0N6/Jqyu3/Mw+n5AwokL1cthPTBGEWApPjI/4BZBpJAcLymcwbSziEg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:ee09:0:b029:1c0:ba8c:fcea with SMTP id e9-20020a62ee090000b02901c0ba8cfceamr12069669pfi.7.1614549561161; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 190sm15404563pfv.155.2021.02.28.13.59.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:59:20 -0800 (PST) To: Paul Kyzivat , xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <3d0300d1-b9de-ffe6-7b87-6726ab6228cd@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 10:59:16 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:59:25 -0000 On 01-Mar-21 09:55, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 2/28/21 2:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 01-Mar-21 06:54, John R Levine wrote: >>>> Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace characters, >>>> using   is an option. In a pinch we could have an element to mark >>>> the end of a sentence (). >>> >>> At the end of every sentence? That's, uh, quite a stretch. Are we sure >>> this problem is worth that much effort by every author? >> >> Since we're designing on the hoof here, I suggest you'd need a construct like >> . >> >> But much simpler to scrap the double space rule. > > Two things are being muddled here: > > 1) two spaces at end of sentences in .txt output; > > 2) how two distinguish sentence endings by xml2rfc in xml input. > > There has been *some* discussion of using two spaces in the input for > (2), but it doesn't work that way now and there are many issues in > changing it to work that way. It isn't evident to me that it is a > serious proposal. > > *If* we had a reliable method for (2) then I doubt there would be much > issue with (1). The problem is that the existing method for (2) isn't > reliable. > > I haven't checked, but I presume the current problems (2) are also > exhibited in html output. Why would they be? The html format has single spaces. (Just checked in RFC8981, which was announced half an hour ago.) > ISTM that the real question is whether authors will be willing to > manually annotate the xml input to indicate sentence endings. I haven't > seen any proposal mentioned that I would willingly use on a regular > basis. I would rather suffer with the existing heuristic. But much simpler to scrap the double space rule. Brian From nobody Sun Feb 28 14:07:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29933A084A for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 14:07:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qZUMDTfXawkU for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 14:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 894673A083E for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 14:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.123] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DpcvW4TqqzyNK; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:07:35 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:07:35 +0100 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 636242854.09843-af36550eac83097514a5a31033eb5281 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <26DCBA0D-AA14-461F-9992-CC631774877E@tzi.org> References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> To: Paul Kyzivat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 22:07:42 -0000 >=20 > Two things are being muddled here: Indeed. > 1) two spaces at end of sentences in .txt output; And 1a) how to render sentence spacing in the HTML (which, AFAIK, is not = helping here). A sentence spacing of two character positions has been the traditional = rendering in plain text. =20 That is suboptimal, of course (as many things are in monospaced = environments). =20 > 2) how two distinguish sentence endings by xml2rfc in xml input. >=20 > There has been *some* discussion of using two spaces in the input for = (2), but it doesn't work that way now and there are many issues in = changing it to work that way. It isn't evident to me that it is a = serious proposal. So this is about sentence detection, not about sentence spacing. (Which in turn can make use of sentence spacing in the input, but that = is orthogonal.) I=E2=80=99m trying to understand why the traditional method doesn=E2=80=99= t work. There is never any ambiguity with traditional keyboarding (a new line = starts after a sentence); except that one has to be careful not to do an = input line-break after [.!?] that is within a sentence. The question is whether there is a need to accommodate multiple = sentences per input line for proper sentence detection. People differ in their style here. The newline after a sentence rule helps with version control as well, so = I have a strong preference for that style. But for people who like running on on the same input line, the two-space = convention has been working well. XML may not "preserve whitespace=E2=80=9D, but what that exactly means = here is not clear to me. =20 Double spaces in XML input are copied verbatim into the HTML (where they = then are swallowed by the HTML processor), so it is not like the = processor is not seeing them. An easy fallback position is to no longer recognize sentence ends within = an input line; that certainly solves the Philip R. Zimmermann issue = (which shouldn=E2=80=99t be there as we have a element for = natural names, but I digress). > *If* we had a reliable method for (2) then I doubt there would be much = issue with (1). The problem is that the existing method for (2) isn't = reliable. I=E2=80=99d say get rid of the heuristics. But then, the thinking in the python textwrap module that is being used = here to do the heavy lifting is extremely confused, so I don=E2=80=99t = know whether that can be parameterized to be sane. =20 Xml2rfc certainly tries... > I haven't checked, but I presume the current problems (2) are also = exhibited in html output. There is no attempt in xml2rfc that I can recognize to have sentence = spacing in HTML output. > ISTM that the real question is whether authors will be willing to = manually annotate the xml input to indicate sentence endings. The answer is: Absolutely not. > I haven't seen any proposal mentioned that I would willingly use on a = regular basis. I would rather suffer with the existing heuristic. A heuristic causes people to want to work around its limitations. =20 Adding a zero-width space after the end of a middle name is a simple = workaround for the current heuristic, but, ugh. =20 As long as the future of the element is unclear (and the = grammar bugs around it aren=E2=80=99t fixed), I=E2=80=99d also not want = to steer people towards that. 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Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:58:32 -0500 To: Brian E Carpenter , xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> <3d0300d1-b9de-ffe6-7b87-6726ab6228cd@gmail.com> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <05b3065e-737d-e282-15f8-8327617a001d@alum.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:58:31 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3d0300d1-b9de-ffe6-7b87-6726ab6228cd@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 4e430618-9f5f-4186-e60d-08d8dc6eaa86 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: BY5PR12MB3715: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2021 04:58:33.6216 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4e430618-9f5f-4186-e60d-08d8dc6eaa86 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CY1NAM02FT055.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR12MB3715 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 04:58:38 -0000 On 2/28/21 4:59 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 01-Mar-21 09:55, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> On 2/28/21 2:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 01-Mar-21 06:54, John R Levine wrote: >>>>> Provided it doesn't also lose alternative Unicode whitespace characters, >>>>> using   is an option. In a pinch we could have an element to mark >>>>> the end of a sentence (). >>>> >>>> At the end of every sentence? That's, uh, quite a stretch. Are we sure >>>> this problem is worth that much effort by every author? >>> >>> Since we're designing on the hoof here, I suggest you'd need a construct like >>> . >>> >>> But much simpler to scrap the double space rule. >> >> Two things are being muddled here: >> >> 1) two spaces at end of sentences in .txt output; >> >> 2) how two distinguish sentence endings by xml2rfc in xml input. >> >> There has been *some* discussion of using two spaces in the input for >> (2), but it doesn't work that way now and there are many issues in >> changing it to work that way. It isn't evident to me that it is a >> serious proposal. >> >> *If* we had a reliable method for (2) then I doubt there would be much >> issue with (1). The problem is that the existing method for (2) isn't >> reliable. >> >> I haven't checked, but I presume the current problems (2) are also >> exhibited in html output. > > Why would they be? The html format has single spaces. (Just checked in > RFC8981, which was announced half an hour ago.) I didn't check, but gathered from the discussion that html had big spaces of some sort between sentences. That would seem to be the analog to two spaces in txt. And if we don't expect that in html then there is even less justification for the two spaces in txt. >> ISTM that the real question is whether authors will be willing to >> manually annotate the xml input to indicate sentence endings. I haven't >> seen any proposal mentioned that I would willingly use on a regular >> basis. I would rather suffer with the existing heuristic. > > But much simpler to scrap the double space rule. yes. From nobody Sun Feb 28 21:23:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918773A156B for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:23:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9MF-0rT8CAva for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from earwig.ash.relay.mailchannels.net (earwig.ash.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.222.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00E443A1569 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:23:39 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EB34825C3; Mon, 1 Mar 2021 05:23:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-13-44.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.13.44]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1FC2B4827B5; Mon, 1 Mar 2021 05:23:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.13.44 (trex/6.0.2); Mon, 01 Mar 2021 05:23:35 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Madly-Hysterical: 08b3d6153ce7a8a5_1614576215366_952020112 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1614576215366:2585135095 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1614576215365 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24C37E3CB; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:23:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=dVdlNdZhyJObiM +F4LlO+zeySsM=; b=vbiy+47Q8FKBDzdNrwhlYWkF9KTRMQYWkpGyvJ/dfViFu1 xtA24kXpC/svsAYpA8uU2SmnxxGitU0icref4sd23CqsUigqCwYKeXwOWWIQYmWB YQEsKQMV2M+GhpW8DKG64ASoDC0Ahcq11uUqlODvGtETtTaFIvFAOYmcvK8Fw= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9F9A57F682; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:23:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:23:31 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a29 From: Nico Williams To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Paul Kyzivat , xml2rfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210301052330.GG30153@localhost> References: <20210227191644.165F76F105E2@ary.qy> <28B528D6-7CBA-4735-A5EE-C7061D1C1D0C@tzi.org> <3dc1abe5-24bf-3b12-7b58-d06c7cde428e@taugh.com> <6603926-561f-c9b8-2612-2afb9847b71@taugh.com> <20210228173825.GE30153@localhost> <14ad2b3e-852a-28b1-27ae-5e25ec7823bc@taugh.com> <3d0300d1-b9de-ffe6-7b87-6726ab6228cd@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3d0300d1-b9de-ffe6-7b87-6726ab6228cd@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] assuming that period (.) ends a sentence is sometimes wrong X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 05:23:44 -0000 On Mon, Mar 01, 2021 at 10:59:16AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 2/28/21 2:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> Since we're designing on the hoof here, I suggest you'd need a construct like > >> . Consider these examples: It's the biggest stimilus in the U.S. Congress budget history. Now, with the power of grammar we can parse that as one sentence. But now try this one: Some wonder what is the biggest problem facing the U.S. Congress. Hmmm. Well, yes, a stickler for grammar will tell you that parses as just one sentence. There is no heuristic you can implement for that case, and wider space after sentence-ending periods really does help readers parse sentences. One could say "don't write ambiguous sentences" / "rewrite to avoid ambiguity". Like: Some wonder what is the biggest problem facing the United States Congress. Well, OK, if there's no desire to do anything about this in xml2rfc, I guess that will be authors' only resort. Here's a possible scheme that doesn't count on XML preserving any space for xml2rfc: if (s[i] == '.' && s[i-1] == '.') || # E.g., ellipsis ('.' && s[i-2] != '.') # I.e., not a dotted acronym if s[i+1] ==   # sentence does not end else # sentence ends else if s[i] == '.' && s[i-2] == '.' # I.e., a dotted acronym if s[i+1] ==   # sentence ends else # sentence does not end Replace   and   with elements if need be. Nico --