From wlo@amsl.com Wed Sep 1 12:11:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2AB33A6A41; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:11:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7SckvqPqzyu; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [64.170.98.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F773A69D2; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6392E083B; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:11:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c1a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c1a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O8cFm4QOn9qs; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AMSD531C (unknown [64.170.98.171]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A125E06DD; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:11:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Wanda Lo" To: , Subject: Request For IETF 78 WG and BOF Sessions Agenda, Minutes, and Presentations Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:11:13 -0700 Message-ID: <6055958E4A1B454180544EBFB27DFD0A@AMSD531C> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0293_01CB49CE.C5A61E40" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: ActKCXHGmgj21mr1TEaXWmCH59Xw/w== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 Cc: irsg@isi.edu, irtf-chair@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:11:14 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0293_01CB49CE.C5A61E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear WG Chairs and BOF Chairs, We are in the process of compiling the Proceedings for IETF 78 and we are still missing meeting minutes from various sessions. The cutoff for submissions has past and correction submissions cutoff is September 15, 2010. Please upload meeting minutes, as well as any presentations from your sessions, at your earliest convenience using the Meeting Materials Manager found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi. Alternatively, you are welcome to send them to proceedings@ietf.org or wlo@amsl.com for manual posting. As of today, I'm still missing minutes from: Thursday's Plenary Application Area -APPAREA -EAI -SIEVE -YAM Internet Area -AUTOCONF -DHC -NETEXT -SOFTWIRE -TICTOC combined session with NTP - Karen's almost done with it ;-) Routing Area -L3VPN -MANET Transport Area -BEHAVE -FECFRAME IRTF Groups -DTNRG -HIPRG -VNRG Thanks, Wanda =========================== Wanda Lo Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) 48377 Fremont Blvd., Ste. 117 Fremont, California 94538 / USA +1-510-492-4082 +1-510-492-4001 (fax) www.ietf.org -- Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com ------=_NextPart_000_0293_01CB49CE.C5A61E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear WG Chairs and BOF = Chairs,

 

We are in the process of compiling the Proceedings = for IETF 78 and we are still missing meeting minutes from various sessions. The = cutoff for submissions has past and correction submissions cutoff is September 15, 2010.  Please = upload meeting minutes, as well as any presentations from your sessions, at = your earliest convenience using the Meeting Materials Manager found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi. = ; Alternatively, you are welcome to send them to proceedings@ietf.org or wlo@amsl.com for manual posting.

 

As of today, I’m still missing minutes = from:

 

Thursday’s Plenary

 

Application Area

-APPAREA

-EAI

-SIEVE

-YAM

 

Internet Area

-AUTOCONF

-DHC

-NETEXT

-SOFTWIRE

-TICTOC combined session with NTP – = Karen’s almost done with it ;-)

 

Routing Area

-L3VPN

-MANET

 

Transport Area

-BEHAVE

-FECFRAME

 

IRTF Groups

-DTNRG

-HIPRG

-VNRG

 

 

 

Thanks,

Wanda

 

 

 

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Wanda Lo

Internet Engineering Task Force = (IETF)

48377 = Fremont Blvd., Ste. 117
Fremont, California 94538 / USA 
+1-510-492-4082
+1-510-492-4001 (fax)
www.ietf.org

 

--

Managed by Association Management Solutions = (AMS)

Forum Management, Meeting and Event = Planning

www.amsl.com

 

------=_NextPart_000_0293_01CB49CE.C5A61E40-- From jari.arkko@piuha.net Wed Sep 1 12:51:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C96B33A69CD; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:51:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.753 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.753 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.373, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_24_48=1.219, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iy-ZlU-n9oG0; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7D03A685A; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440442CC49; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:51:33 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id is-QmxDrs+Dy; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:51:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A711F2CC47; Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:51:28 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4C7D57BB.9000004@piuha.net> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 07:27:55 +1200 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100411) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Internet Area , Working Group Chairs , IETF Discussion Subject: BOF proposals for the next IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:51:06 -0000 I know it seems early, but FYI: The important dates for IETF 79 are available here: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2010.html#IETF79 BOF proposals get added to this wiki page: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki All BOF proposal requests for IETF 79 must be submitted to ADs by 17:00 Pacific on Monday, 13 Sept. 2010. The Secretariat needs all of the information for the first draft of the agenda well before Wednesday, 6 Oct. 2010. From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Tue Sep 7 13:55:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id DB2973A6ACE; Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:55:54 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement list Subject: IETF 79 - Meeting Information Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100907205554.DB2973A6ACE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 20:55:55 -0000 79th IETF Meeting Beijing, China November 7-12, 2010 Host: Tsinghua University Register online at: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/79/ 1. Registration 2. Meeting and Training Schedule 3. Visas & Letters of Invitation 4. Accommodations, Breakfast and Cancellation Policy 1. Registration A. Early-Bird Registration - USD 635.00 Pay by Friday, 29 October 2010 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC) B. After Early-Bird cutoff - USD 785.00 C. Full-time Student Registrations - USD 150.00 (with proper ID) D. One Day Pass Registration - USD 350.00 E. Registration Cancellation Cut-off for registration cancellation is Monday, 1 November 2010 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). Cancellations are subject to a 10% (ten percent) cancellation fee if requested by that date and time. F. Online Registration ends Friday, 5 Nov 2010, 17:00 local time (02:00 PT, 09:00 UTC). G. On-site Registration starting Sunday, 7 November at 11:00 AM local Beijing time. 2. Meeting and Training Schedule: A. Meeting starts Monday morning and runs through Friday at 15:15 local time. B. Most training sessions will take place on Sunday afternoon 7 November 2010. The following tutorials are being offered: Newcomer's Training (English and Mandarin), Security Tutorial, Document Lifecycle Tutorial and Routing, Bridging and Switching Tutorial. You can read a description of each tutorial at: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/79/tutorials.html 3. Visas & Letters of Invitation: There are two types of visa you can use to enter China: Tourist (L) or Business (F). We recommend you allow at least one month to complete the visa application process. A. Tourist Visa (L) Does not require a letter of invitation from the Host or the IETF. According to the Host this is appropriate if you intend to do sightseeing in China before or after the meeting. B. Business Visa (F) An official letter of invitation from the meeting host, Tsinghua University, is required. You can request this letter after registering for IETF 79. For more detailed information see: http://www.ietf.org/meetin/79/visa.html 4. Accommodations, Breakfast and Cancellation Policy There are a block of guest room for the IETF at two hotels in Beijing, the main meeting venue - the Shangri-La Hotel Beijing, and the Hotel Nikko New Century Beijing. Additional hotel information and instructions on making your reservation and receiving the IETF group rate can be found at: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/79/hotel.html Room rates are inclusive of daily breakfast and in room high-speed Internet access. Reservations Cut off Date: October 22, 2010 Guaranteed Reservations to be Held: guaranteed reservations will be held until the night of the arrival date. All reservations must be accompanied by a valid credit card that shall be charged on the cut off date (October 22, 2010) for one night room and tax, which is refundable up to 72 hours prior to scheduled arrival date. Guest Cancellation: Individuals can cancel a reservation without penalty until 3 days prior to check-in/arrival. In case of cancellation less than 3 days to 1 day prior to expected arrival day, the Hotel will charge 2 nights of the room charges and a service charge. For non-arrival or no-show on expected arrival day, the Hotel holds the right to charge the individuals for 3 nights of the room charges and a service charge as cancellation fees. Check in time: 15:00; Check out time: 12:00 Early Departure Fee: An early departure fee of original duration at daily group rate and service charge will be applied to all rooms that do not notify the front desk within 24 hours of an early check out. Hotel will confirm with guest at the time of check in on the scheduled departure date. If guest gives the Hotel an advance notice of 24 hours, the Hotel will not charge any penalty. NOTE: The distance between the Hotel Nikko and the Shangri-La Hotel is approximately 2.2 kilometers (1.37 miles) 8-10 minutes by cab or bus (depending on traffic) and 20-30 minutes walking (though not recommended, it may be rather cold). A shuttle bus will be provided between the two venues running continually between the hotels for 1 hour prior and 1 hour after the event everyday from November 7-12, 2010. During the conference hours on November 8-12, 2010 the shuttle bus will be running between the two hotels every 1 hour. Cab prices between the Shangri-La and Nikko will cost approximately RMB 10-15. (approximately USD 2.20; EUR 1.75, JPY 186) Only 60 days until the Beijing IETF! From iab-chair@iab.org Fri Sep 10 08:25:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3F53A6835 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:25:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.453, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EyPqH5mg6Qal for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [64.170.98.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1903A6843 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22714E08A3 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c1a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c1a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WPsAHTyuy9uD for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aagje.fritz.box (a82-95-132-144.adsl.xs4all.nl [82.95.132.144]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A2F16E07DF for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: IAB Chair Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FYI: IAB technical plenary on Monday Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:26:09 +0200 Message-Id: To: Working Group Chairs Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:12:00 -0700 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:25:47 -0000 Colleagues, The IAB has, after some discussion with the IAOC and the IESG, decided = to move the IAB technical plenary to=20 the beginning of the week. The plenary, now on Monday instead of = Thursday, will have roughly the same start time and length as usual. We = hope this will stimulate discussion of any issues discussed during that = plenary. After IETF 79 the IAB will evaluate if this schedule will continue to be = used for future meetings. --Olaf Kolkman IAB Chair ----------------------------------- The Internet Architecture Board www.iab.org iab-chair@iab.org From jari.arkko@piuha.net Tue Sep 14 03:08:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332283A67EC; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 03:08:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.179, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 85zGfhuh8kha; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 03:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237343A68A5; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 03:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189DF2CC4B; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:09:08 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OOyFmpABAb01; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:09:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F252CC30; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:09:07 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4C8F49C2.6040405@piuha.net> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:09:06 +0300 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100411) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Working Group Chairs , IETF Discussion Subject: BOFs for IETF-79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:08:45 -0000 We have received ten proposals for BOFs in for the upcoming meeting (on cloud computing, distributed mobility management, ARP improvements, light-weight IP stack, name-based sockets, home networking, datatracker spec review, network stratum query, DNS-based cryptographic security, secure content automation). In about a week we will be making decisions about what to do about these things. If you are interested in participating the discussions or have opinions to share, I know the both the organizers of these efforts as well as the ADs would appreciate feedback and additional participation. More information about these efforts and their mailing lists are shown in http://tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart Jari From wlo@amsl.com Tue Sep 14 09:57:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8D93A6A07; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:57:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.334, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t6I9VRp8iS9u; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [64.170.98.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8047D3A6ABA; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C4DE0893; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:57:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c1a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c1a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RMlAg-vlttsx; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AMSD531C (unknown [64.170.98.171]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 801C8E0834; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:57:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Wanda Lo" To: , Subject: Request For IETF 78 WG and BOF Sessions Agenda, Minutes, and Presentations Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:57:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_020D_01CB53F3.3B57CFC0" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 thread-index: ActULeeCx//+CIs7R+K/zKyaUtxHVA== Importance: High Cc: irsg@isi.edu X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 16:57:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_020D_01CB53F3.3B57CFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear WG Chairs and BOF Chairs, We are in the process of compiling the Proceedings for IETF 78 and we are still missing meeting minutes from various sessions. The cutoff for submissions has past and correction submissions cutoff is tomorrow, September 15, 2010. Please upload meeting minutes, as well as any presentations from your sessions, at your earliest convenience using the Meeting Materials Manager found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi. Alternatively, you are welcome to send them to proceedings@ietf.org or wlo@amsl.com for manual posting. As of today, I'm still missing minutes from: Thursday's Plenary Application Area -APPAREA -SIEVE -YAM Internet Area -AUTOCONF -SOFTWIRE Operations and Management Area -MBONED -NETMOD -V6OPS Routing Area -L3VPN -MANET Transport Area -BEHAVE Thanks, Wanda =========================== Wanda Lo Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) 48377 Fremont Blvd., Ste. 117 Fremont, California 94538 / USA +1-510-492-4082 +1-510-492-4001 (fax) www.ietf.org -- Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com ------=_NextPart_000_020D_01CB53F3.3B57CFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear WG Chairs and BOF = Chairs,

 

We are in the process of compiling the Proceedings = for IETF 78 and we are still missing meeting minutes from various sessions. The = cutoff for submissions has past and correction submissions cutoff is tomorrow, = September 15, 2010.  Please = upload meeting minutes, as well as any presentations from your sessions, at = your earliest convenience using the Meeting Materials Manager found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi. = ; Alternatively, you are welcome to send them to proceedings@ietf.org or wlo@amsl.com for manual posting.

 

As of today, I’m still missing minutes = from:

 

Thursday’s Plenary

 

Application Area

-APPAREA

-SIEVE

-YAM

 

Internet Area

-AUTOCONF

-SOFTWIRE

 

Operations and Management = Area

-MBONED

-NETMOD

-V6OPS

 

Routing Area

-L3VPN

-MANET

 

Transport Area

-BEHAVE

 

 

Thanks,

Wanda

 

 

 

 

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Wanda Lo

Internet Engineering Task Force = (IETF)

48377 = Fremont Blvd., Ste. 117
Fremont, California 94538 / USA 
+1-510-492-4082
+1-510-492-4001 (fax)
www.ietf.org

 

--

Managed by Association Management Solutions = (AMS)

Forum Management, Meeting and Event = Planning

www.amsl.com

 

------=_NextPart_000_020D_01CB53F3.3B57CFC0-- From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Tue Sep 14 10:20:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 51FC83A6962; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:20:40 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Agenda To: Working Group Chairs Subject: 79th IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100914172040.51FC83A6962@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: irsg@isi.edu X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:20:40 -0000 79th IETF Beijing, China Meeting Dates: November 7-12, 2010 Host: Tsinghua University ----------------------------------------------------------------- IETF meetings start Monday morning and run through Friday mid-afternoon (15:15). We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups and BOFs. The milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related activities are as follows: NOTE: cutoff dates are subject to change. * 2010-09-27 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to schedule Working Group meetings at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). To request a Working Group session, use the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool. * 2010-09-27 (Monday): Cutoff date for Area Directors to approve BOFs at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). * 2010-10-06 (Wednesday): Preliminary agenda published for comment. * 2010-10-11 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to reschedule Working Group and BOF meetings 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). * 2010-10-11 (Monday): Working Group Chair approval for initial document (Version -00) submissions appreciated by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). * 2010-10-15 (Friday): Final agenda to be published. * 2010-10-27 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. * 2010-11-01 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. Submitting Requests for Working Group and BOF Sessions Please submit requests to schedule your Working Group sessions using the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting all of the information that the Secretariat requires to schedule your sessions. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi Instructions for using the tool are available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html Please send requests to schedule your BOF sessions to agenda@ietf.org. Please include the acronym of your BOF in the subject line of the message, and include all of the information specified in item (4) of "Requesting Meeting Sessions at IETF Meetings" in the body. (This document is included below.) Submitting Session Agendas For the convenience of meeting attendees, we ask that you submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions as early as possible. Draft Working Group agendas are due Wednesday, October 27 by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). Revised Working Group agendas are due no later than Monday, November 1 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). The proposed agenda for a BOF session should be submitted along with your request for a session. Please be sure to copy your Area Director on that message. Please submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions using the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool," a Web-based tool for making your meeting agenda, minutes, and presentation slides available to the community before, during, and after an IETF meeting. If you are a BOF chair, then you may use the tool to submit a revised agenda as well as other materials for your BOF once the BOF has been approved. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi Additional information about this tool is available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/meeting_materials_tool.html Agendas submitted via the tool will be available to the public on the "IETF Meeting Materials" Web page as soon as they are submitted. The URL for the "IETF 79 Meeting Materials" Web page is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=79 If you are a Working Group chair, then you already have accounts on the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool" and the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool." The same User ID and password will work for both tools. If you are a BOF chair who is not also a Working Group chair, then you will be given an account on the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool" when your BOF has been approved. If you require assistance in using either tool, or wish to report a bug, then please send a message to: ietf-action@ietf.org. =============================================================== For your convenience, comprehensive information on requesting meeting sessions at IETF 79 is presented below: 1. Requests to schedule Working Group sessions should be submitted using the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting all of the information required by the Secretariat to schedule your sessions. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi Instructions for using the tool are available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html If you require an account on this tool, or assistance in using it, then please send a message to ietf-action@ietf.org. If you are unable to use the tool, then you may send your request via e-mail to agenda@ietf.org, with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). Requests to schedule BOF sessions must be sent to agenda@ietf.org with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). When submitting a Working Group or BOF session request by e-mail, please include the Working Group or BOF acronym in the Subject line. 2. BOFs will NOT be scheduled unless the Area Director(s) approved request is accompanied by a BOF'S FULL NAME AND ACRONYM, AREA, CHAIR(S) NAME(S) (given together with e-mail address(es)), AN AGENDA AND FULL DESCRIPTION, and the information requested in (4) below. (Please read the BOF Procedure at: http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1bof-procedures.txt before requesting a session for a BOF.) 3. A Working Group may request either one or two sessions. If your Working Group requires more than two sessions, then your request must be approved by an Area Director. Additional sessions will be assigned, based on availability, after Friday, October 11, 2010 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), the cut-off date for requests to reschedule a session. 4. You MUST provide the following information before a Working Group or BOF session will be scheduled: a. Working Group or BOF full name with acronym in brackets: b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears: c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: d. Expected Attendance: e. Special requests: f. Number of sessions: g. Length of session: - 1 hour - 1 1/2 hours - 2 hours - 2 1/2 hours For more information on scheduling Working Group and BOF sessions, please refer to RFC 2418 (BCP 25), "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures" (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt). =============================================================== For your convenience please find here a list of the IETF Area Directors with their e-mail addresses: IETF Chair Russ Housley Applications Area (app) Alexey Melnikov Peter Saint-Andre Internet Area (int) Jari Arkko Ralph Droms Operations & Management Area (ops) Ronald Bonica Dan Romascanu Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Area (rai) Gonzalo Camarillo Robert Sparks Routing Area (rtg) Stewart Bryant Adrian Farrel Security Area (sec) Tim Polk Sean Turner Transport Area (tsv) Lars Eggert David Harrington =========================================================== 78th IETF Meeting Attendance Number Working Group 6lowpan - 106 6mam - 81 6man (second session) - 146 alto - 88 ancp - 16 apparea (AG) - 106 autoconf - 24 avt - 46 avt (2nd session) - 38 behave - 128 bfd - 57 bmwg - 20 ccamp - 75 ccamp (2nd session) - 68 codec - 68 conex WG - 85 core - 99 decade - 67 dhc - 44 dime - 22 dispatch - 71 dkim - 36 dnsext - 136 dnsext (second session) - 112 dnsop - 130 drinks - 34 dtnrg (RG) - 23 eai - 37 ecrit - 49 emu - 20 enum - 59 fecframe - 16 fedauth BoF - 101 forces - 10 ftpext2 BoF - 23 geopriv - 62 grow - 76 hasmat BoF - 72 hiprg (RG) - 48 hokey - 17 homegate BoF - 145 httpbis - 37 httpstate - 29 hybi - 43 iccrg (RG) - 61 idr - 69 intarea (AG) - 119 ipfix - 27 ippm - 28 ipsecme - 39 iri - NO SHEETS isis - 46 karp - 64 kitten - 27 l2vpn - 99 l3vpn - 47 ltans - 9 manet - 23 marf - 53 martini - 33 martini (2nd session) - 16 mboned - 17 mext - 42 mif - 73 mip4 - 23 mmusic - 38 mobopts (RG) - 24 morg - 13 mpls - 117 mpls (2nd session) - 93 mptcp - 82 mptcp (2nd session) - 79 msec - 19 multimob - 61 nea - 28 netconf - 33 netext - 42 netmod - 21 nfsv4 - 28 nmrg (RG) - 46 oauth - 52 opsarea (AG) - 59 opsawg - 79 opsec - 20 ospf - 58 p2psip - 57 pce - 28 pim - 19 pkix - 44 ppsp - 73 precis WG - 36 pwe3 - 125 radext - 26 rmt - 6 roll - 81 rtgarea (AG) - 114 rtgwg - 52 saag (AG) - 108 salud WG - 9 samrg (RG) - 29 savi - 24 sidr - 104 sieve - 13 sipclf - 23 sipcore - 63 siprec - 27 soc WG - 27 softwire - 68 tictoc - 57 tls - 38 trill - 87 tsvwg - 74 urnbis BoF - 32 v6ops - 136 v6ops (second session) - 87 vcarddav - 18 vnrg (RG) - 82 xmpp - 35 yam - 27 From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:32:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728503A6AC0 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:32:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.48 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.48 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.119, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IdgzYSpjnghS for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5C53A695A for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxl31 with SMTP id 31so793926yxl.31 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:33:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pp6B9KpXIfHV+GSlagy2O3io40fgmBl0tboJtfPvreU=; b=df+QeIDPJGJW85YLcio/ZChZF3gx19d9No0WgVULylIM01DTpFFC+LWBDGB5S93wai Vcjks+vYA44klh2whWCw4Xh9aJ9hBz2qegkb/03RV/vxjZBLXlQgE7L7vG4gWSJ4a2R4 EAbLclzLZwfCz8R2rfP9XL/beSDYMAB8C5kAo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=w2rujYSNQ4B5xauRfmT3hcvZoLML3+A0MEbMFLirSfBxKy/Rw0olOvcOCj3HgXuqzy 8Qw/VgX5TERc89GZCcw0olPBLcuP/MKyTvZ96kLAIePlgrw+C0Fjp9Uz7or3lVbddr83 WohyuzStSBJYkJZ4mlAMmABSYflJH81X/kQp8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.106.12 with SMTP id i12mr4347875ybm.106.1284679979682; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.108.172 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:32:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100916232602.BE4603A69FC@core3.amsl.com> References: <20100916232602.BE4603A69FC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:32:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: NomCom 2010-2011: Call for More Nominations From: Mary Barnes To: IETF WG Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:32:41 -0000 Hi folks, If you could please forward this email to your WG mailing list, it would be much appreciated. As Tom notes below, there have been very few nominations thus far and there are only 2 weeks left in the nominations period. Thanks, Mary Nomcom 2010-2011 Advisor ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: NomCom Chair Date: Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 6:26 PM Subject: NomCom 2010-2011: Call for More Nominations To: IETF Announcement list Hi Folks, Nominations have slowed down dramatically, so this update is to enlist the community in an effort to pick up the pace. We are very far behind in nominations for all the open positions but in particular we need nominations for the IESG and IAOC open positions. There have been no nominations received (other than for the incumbents) in INT, RAI, and RTG, and only 1 for OPS. =A0Likewise, in IAOC there have been no nominations submitted other than the incumbent. The acceptance rates of those nominated has also been very slow. In order to initiate the open list of willing nominees we are in need of a reasonable number of acceptances, and due to the low number of nominees and acceptances have delayed the start date for publishing the first open list to September 20. =A0So if you have been nominated and are willing to serve, but have not yet confirmed this by email back to the NomCom, please do so as soon as possible. We need Community input and participation! We cannot properly execute the task of selecting the best candidates for these positions with so few nominations and acceptances. So, please consider making nominations for the open positions, in particular those for which we have so few nominations =96 it takes just a few minutes of your time. Right now, we just need the names/email addresses. Why do we need more nominations? =A0Well, even if you think a willing incumbent is doing a very good job and should be returned, his or her ability to serve again might be impacted by unforeseen circumstances between now and March. NomCom needs to consider multiple nominees to be prepared in the event one or more candidates is unable to serve come next March and to ensure we have chosen the best candidate. There are several ways you can help the IETF Nominating Committee. - You may nominate yourself. - You can nominate someone you know whom you think would do a good job. Do not worry about whether they might already be nominated. We would much prefer to receive the same nomination several times rather than miss a good person we should consider. How to submit Nominations: -------------------------- The list of positions we need to fill, and the provided Job Descriptions, and forms for nominations, can be found in the call for nominations at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ann/nomcom/2468/ You may enter a nomination by going to the following URL https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/10/nominate You may also nominate someone by sending an email to nomcom10@ietf.org and giving us their name, email address and the open position you are nominating them for. We will take care of the rest. If you are asked for a user name and password, use an existing ietf login and password. If you need a login and password, request one from the tools page at the following URL http://trac.tools.ietf.org/newlogin Open List: ---------- As you already know, NomCom 2010-2011 will follow the policy for "Open Disclosure of Willing Nominees" described in RFC 5680. Feedback Collection: -------------------- Once the open list is available, the entire community will be invited to provide feedback. I will send a further announcement requesting feedback on the nominees, describing how to submit feedback, and how to view the open list of nominees. Thank you, Thomas Walsh Chair, NomCom 2010-2011 nomcom-chair@ietf.org twalsh@juniper.net _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Tue Sep 21 10:58:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 44E473A695B; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:58:51 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Administrative Director To: IETF Announcement list Subject: RFP: Requirements Development for Community Draft Tracking Tool Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100921175852.44E473A695B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:58:52 -0000 The IETF Administrative Oversight Committee (IAOC), on behalf of the IETF, announces this Request for Proposal to develop the requirements for a community draft tracking tool. The successful bidder will enter into a contract with the Internet Society. The primary goal of this project is to develop consensus on a set of requirements for extending the Data Tracker to give individual IETF community members, including IETF leadership, easy methods for tracking the progress of the Internet Drafts (I-Ds) of interest to them. The tools that will eventually be provided to individuals in the community include the ability to create one or more (possibly large) lists of I-Ds that they want to follow; the ability to get notifications when individual drafts from a list changes state; the ability to see all of the state changes that have occurred on all the drafts in a list over a specified range of dates; the ability to set the granularity of the changes (such as "every change", "just approvals and publication", and so on); the ability to organize their views of a list in many fashions that would be useful to different types of community members; and the ability to share and merge lists with other community members. Because there many different types of community members, there needs to be a significant amount of outreach when creating these requirements. This outreach includes a separate mailing list for discussion, a face-to-face BoF at IETF 79 in Beijing, virtual meetings after IETF 79, and directed communications with specific communities such as the I* groups, WG chairs, and SDOs with whom the IETF has liaison relationships. The expected outcome is requirements for multiple methods for an individual to interact with the system that will eventually be deployed. The RFP can be found at: http://iaoc.ietf.org/rfpsrfis.html. Proposals must be received via email at rpelletier@isoc.org no later than October 11, 2010, 5:00 P.M. EDT. All questions/inquiries must be submitted in writing and must be received no later than midnight, EDT, September 27, 2010. Responses to questions and inquiries shall be posted on the IAOC website, iaoc.ietf.org/rfpsrfis.html by midnight, EDT, October 4, 2010. The point of contact regarding this RFP is the IETF Administrative Director, Ray Pelletier. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com Tue Sep 21 12:09:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44A73A676A for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.707 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.707 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.597, BAYES_05=-1.11, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8-uQYcUfwZMs for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF323A63D3 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id o8LJ9ch2029120 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:09:38 -0500 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o8LJ9bBF010381 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:09:37 -0500 Received: from SMURPHY-LT.columbia.ads.sparta.com ([157.185.81.178]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:09:37 -0400 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:09:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: Sandra Murphy To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: internet access at NH in Maastricht Message-ID: X-X-Sender: sandy@mailbin.sparta.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Sep 2010 19:09:37.0453 (UTC) FILETIME=[88D64DD0:01CB59C0] X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:09:15 -0000 I paid for a week's internet access at the NH hotel. When the access turned out to be a problem and the IETF took over, I complained to the management. I was told that I would not be charged for the access. Access did not appear on my bill. But looking at my credit card statement, I find that I was charged for the internet access after all. In full. Has anyone else had a similar experience? --Sandy From jgs@bgp.nu Tue Sep 21 12:16:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E979228C11D for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:16:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_IS_SMALL6=0.556, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C0phDutMr+9r for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bgp.nu (bgp.nu [216.117.214.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4659828C0FB for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.13.204] (75-151-14-10-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [75.151.14.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bgp.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41991614868; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: internet access at NH in Maastricht Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "John G. Scudder" In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:16:22 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <92AFFAF4-E5D9-48AE-B605-D68C9FC7E07F@bgp.nu> References: To: Sandra Murphy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:16:01 -0000 I didn't complain to the management, I complained to Swisscom. After = they dropped the ball initially ("we will get back to you in a few days" = telescoped into weeks) I reminded them, and they credited my card the = full amount without any further fuss. =20 I don't think the NH is involved in Swisscom's billing at all, so I = wonder why they told you that you wouldn't be charged. --John On Sep 21, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Sandra Murphy wrote: > I paid for a week's internet access at the NH hotel. When the access = turned out to be a problem and the IETF took over, I complained to the = management. I was told that I would not be charged for the access. >=20 > Access did not appear on my bill. But looking at my credit card = statement, I find that I was charged for the internet access after all. = In full. >=20 > Has anyone else had a similar experience? >=20 > --Sandy From adam@nostrum.com Tue Sep 21 12:43:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728FA3A67F8 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:43:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.691 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.691 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oLBjq7WRVe2L for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4FB53A67D0 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dn3-110.estacado.net (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8LJiFaw044968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:44:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <4C990B0D.7020609@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:44:13 -0500 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100825 Thunderbird/3.1.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John G. Scudder" Subject: Re: internet access at NH in Maastricht References: <92AFFAF4-E5D9-48AE-B605-D68C9FC7E07F@bgp.nu> In-Reply-To: <92AFFAF4-E5D9-48AE-B605-D68C9FC7E07F@bgp.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Sandra Murphy X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:43:54 -0000 I couldn't find an email address for Swisscom customer support. How did you contact them? /a On 9/21/10 2:16 PM, John G. Scudder wrote: > I didn't complain to the management, I complained to Swisscom. After they dropped the ball initially ("we will get back to you in a few days" telescoped into weeks) I reminded them, and they credited my card the full amount without any further fuss. > > I don't think the NH is involved in Swisscom's billing at all, so I wonder why they told you that you wouldn't be charged. > > --John > > On Sep 21, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Sandra Murphy wrote: > >> I paid for a week's internet access at the NH hotel. When the access turned out to be a problem and the IETF took over, I complained to the management. I was told that I would not be charged for the access. >> >> Access did not appear on my bill. But looking at my credit card statement, I find that I was charged for the internet access after all. In full. >> >> Has anyone else had a similar experience? >> >> --Sandy From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Tue Sep 21 12:50:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D163A6AA9 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZpkOs9qgSvXo for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896C43A67D0 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323E439E80DC; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tgyXmGzVjqg4; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wkstn161-52.carbarn.georgetown.edu (wkstn161-52.carbarn.georgetown.edu [141.161.161.52]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A29AC39E80B1; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: internet access at NH in Maastricht Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Lixia Zhang In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:49:13 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Sandra Murphy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:50:34 -0000 On Sep 21, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Sandra Murphy wrote: > I paid for a week's internet access at the NH hotel. When the access = turned out to be a problem and the IETF took over, I complained to the = management. I was told that I would not be charged for the access. >=20 > Access did not appear on my bill. But looking at my credit card = statement, I find that I was charged for the internet access after all. = In full. >=20 > Has anyone else had a similar experience? >=20 > --Sandy I did. The front desk said that I would not be charged if I just talk = to the provider. I did, but no response from the provider and my credit = card was charged for a full week's connection fee. Lixia From jgs@bgp.nu Tue Sep 21 12:52:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA143A6840 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.930, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_IS_SMALL6=0.556, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qaYdmj99ryeJ for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bgp.nu (bgp.nu [216.117.214.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27BF53A67D0 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.13.204] (75-151-14-10-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [75.151.14.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bgp.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366C916147E9; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: internet access at NH in Maastricht Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "John G. Scudder" In-Reply-To: <4C990B0D.7020609@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:53:18 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <92AFFAF4-E5D9-48AE-B605-D68C9FC7E07F@bgp.nu> <4C990B0D.7020609@nostrum.com> To: Adam Roach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Sandra Murphy X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:52:59 -0000 I don't recall now but I bet it was through a web form. The reply-to in = their autoresponder reply was mobile.customercare@swisscom.com, that = worked for my follow-up. --John On Sep 21, 2010, at 3:44 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > I couldn't find an email address for Swisscom customer support. How = did you contact them? >=20 > /a >=20 > On 9/21/10 2:16 PM, John G. Scudder wrote: >> I didn't complain to the management, I complained to Swisscom. After = they dropped the ball initially ("we will get back to you in a few days" = telescoped into weeks) I reminded them, and they credited my card the = full amount without any further fuss. >>=20 >> I don't think the NH is involved in Swisscom's billing at all, so I = wonder why they told you that you wouldn't be charged. >>=20 >> --John >>=20 >> On Sep 21, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Sandra Murphy wrote: >>=20 >>> I paid for a week's internet access at the NH hotel. When the = access turned out to be a problem and the IETF took over, I complained = to the management. I was told that I would not be charged for the = access. >>>=20 >>> Access did not appear on my bill. But looking at my credit card = statement, I find that I was charged for the internet access after all. = In full. >>>=20 >>> Has anyone else had a similar experience? >>>=20 >>> --Sandy From bernie@ietf.hoeneisen.ch Tue Sep 21 13:01:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E747D3A67F8 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:01:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.892 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.892 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.293, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yGgvCZbx2OZw for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from softronics.hoeneisen.ch (softronics.hoeneisen.ch [62.2.86.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E213A6824 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by softronics.hoeneisen.ch with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oy91s-0005jW-TJ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:01:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:01:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Bernie Hoeneisen X-X-Sender: bhoeneis@softronics.hoeneisen.ch To: Adam Roach Subject: Re: internet access at NH in Maastricht In-Reply-To: <4C990B0D.7020609@nostrum.com> Message-ID: References: <92AFFAF4-E5D9-48AE-B605-D68C9FC7E07F@bgp.nu> <4C990B0D.7020609@nostrum.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (DEB 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bernie@ietf.hoeneisen.ch X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on softronics.hoeneisen.ch); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Sandra Murphy X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:01:18 -0000 Hi Adam et al. You can find their worldwide contact numbers here: http://www.swisscom.com/Hospitality/content/Serviceversprechen/Kundenbetreuung/ They even have a U.S. based phone number. If nothing helps, you can always approach your credit card issuer and dispute the transaction on basis of not having received the service as promissed. (I tried it once in a similar situation. I got the money credited back and never heard anything from the provider.) Good luck! cheers, Bernie -- http://ucom.ch/ Tech Consulting for Internet Standardization On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Adam Roach wrote: > I couldn't find an email address for Swisscom customer support. How did you > contact them? > > /a > > On 9/21/10 2:16 PM, John G. Scudder wrote: >> I didn't complain to the management, I complained to Swisscom. After they >> dropped the ball initially ("we will get back to you in a few days" >> telescoped into weeks) I reminded them, and they credited my card the full >> amount without any further fuss. >> >> I don't think the NH is involved in Swisscom's billing at all, so I wonder >> why they told you that you wouldn't be charged. >> >> --John >> >> On Sep 21, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Sandra Murphy wrote: >> >>> I paid for a week's internet access at the NH hotel. When the access >>> turned out to be a problem and the IETF took over, I complained to the >>> management. I was told that I would not be charged for the access. >>> >>> Access did not appear on my bill. But looking at my credit card >>> statement, I find that I was charged for the internet access after all. In >>> full. >>> >>> Has anyone else had a similar experience? >>> >>> --Sandy > > From amorris@amsl.com Tue Sep 21 13:23:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DB63A67FA for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:23:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6HHItjir2ubF for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [64.170.98.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1353A67F8 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443A6E08C3; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c1a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c1a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EAoIs3sSjzkr; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.2.69] (unknown [189.254.195.67]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE971E08A9; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <633C9E80-0896-45FF-BEE1-A8F0E8B3671B@amsl.com> From: Alexa Morris To: Sandra Murphy In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: internet access at NH in Maastricht Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:23:43 -0700 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: IETF Working Group Chairs , Nugent Laura X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:23:24 -0000 Everyone: We are going to see what we can do about the promised reimbursements and hope to have more information in a bit. Regards, Alexa On Sep 21, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Sandra Murphy wrote: > I paid for a week's internet access at the NH hotel. When the > access turned out to be a problem and the IETF took over, I > complained to the management. I was told that I would not be > charged for the access. > > Access did not appear on my bill. But looking at my credit card > statement, I find that I was charged for the internet access after > all. In full. > > Has anyone else had a similar experience? > > --Sandy > ----------- Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 Email: amorris@amsl.com Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com From behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 13:53:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD813A67F8 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.288, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MdX6J4266dEe for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web111403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (web111403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [67.195.15.144]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BC183A67B1 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 79006 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Sep 2010 20:53:30 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1285102410; bh=cu6hdtMA1Ltweb+EBg8gOeqb1XODghm902QguyJ7bhM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gBkFVjrjPtKQ1ra5prZdL3vBlmTRdhWHpoO1nz+Rfa0FuLnY4UonU4O20ZbBQCejJibb4UZfLuvXffZLDQgzQ6TwQXeKaWq5hZo2joca7om8Q/fqGUoWTe9YphgzSDGhW4cekGdlMlHF/nNphL0AnD1oYslei7/wghdXkOs4jDk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TZZ2CTSSQ+ZsRkiyp+Nvz/MpteHE5t+hYPLiQuGJsuo7HrPQ5yPrbbz/+Ij1+YG4avkYAj1Z+skXd1+aoSSrt27IndhY+uPqdD1sNid7GgQp8F1YgDtr3TpCGdhCqAONCML40ygLZfofBPb2g3XFmBMfuDWgyX5Whs3u9+vDMJE=; Message-ID: <237659.77582.qm@web111403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: zFn41EMVM1leWf5Eiv_dB.aDa7r2gKW0rPGGYsVidcxWAE5 GEkauVCwSbyQQOhjIhXJeZLyImAdW53OAsu3fLxEoIL8lzQvvsaF_dwzbKlW RDbt0j8V6UWyA3S34kpn0bVoy09Asbt64kK6rQq8spnG3fg4xYVw_C3t05yC gzkcgHFhWYxY0gPmlIdeU9MFTCMlvOaTGucrN7cDxgh4aX7JIcyBcgD1tykA gn8HPe2ZMVbtUVwoiybZWFGpIW18ZunNoDRKsFASlHo0hZUO_9EqiYwtgcA8 hTKddmFfPj.LIDNBklIIRjHkXw2z1V9gBvCIxOhpjASOio..8BI3MXuOhKlH EbnRNPA58B2wuBkIJ2f5437rg7w-- Received: from [206.16.17.212] by web111403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:53:29 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/497 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:53:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya Subject: Re: internet access at NH in Maastricht To: Sandra Murphy , wgchairs@ietf.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:53:09 -0000 I think this discussion belongs to 78 attendees list. --b ----- Original Message ---- > From: Sandra Murphy > To: wgchairs@ietf.org > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 2:09:36 PM > Subject: internet access at NH in Maastricht > > I paid for a week's internet access at the NH hotel. When the access turned >out to be a problem and the IETF took over, I complained to the management. I >was told that I would not be charged for the access. > > Access did not appear on my bill. But looking at my credit card statement, I >find that I was charged for the internet access after all. In full. > > Has anyone else had a similar experience? > > --Sandy > From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Wed Sep 22 09:29:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 1AA3F3A69CA; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:29:27 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement list Subject: IETF 79 - Meeting Information Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100922162927.1AA3F3A69CA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:29:27 -0000 79th IETF Meeting Beijing, China November 7-12, 2010 Host: Tsinghua University Register online at: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/79/ 1. Registration 2. Meeting and Training Schedule 3. Visas & Letters of Invitation 4. Accommodations - Limited Number of Rooms Available 5. Meeting Wiki 1. Registration A. Early-Bird Registration - USD 635.00 Pay by Friday, 29 October 2010 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC) B. After Early-Bird cutoff - USD 785.00 C. Full-time Student Registrations - USD 150.00 (with proper ID) D. One Day Pass Registration - USD 350.00 E. Registration Cancellation Cut-off for registration cancellation is Monday, 1 November 2010 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). Cancellations are subject to a 10% (ten percent) cancellation fee if requested by that date and time. F. Online Registration ends Friday, 5 Nov 2010, 17:00 local time (02:00 PT, 09:00 UTC). G. On-site Registration starting Sunday, 7 November at 11:00 AM local Beijing time. 2. Meeting and Training Schedule: A. Meeting starts Monday morning and runs through Friday at 15:15 local time. B. Most training sessions will take place on Sunday afternoon 7 November 2010. The following tutorials are being offered: Newcomer's Training (English and Mandarin), Security Tutorial, Document Lifecycle Tutorial and Routing, Bridging and Switching Tutorial. You can read a description of each tutorial at: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/79/tutorials.html 3. Visas & Letters of Invitation: There are two types of visa you can use to enter China: Tourist (L) or Business (F). We recommend you allow at least one month to complete the visa application process. A. Tourist Visa (L) Does not require a letter of invitation from the Host or the IETF. According to the Host this is appropriate if you intend to do sightseeing in China before or after the meeting. B. Business Visa (F) An official letter of invitation from the meeting host, Tsinghua University, is required. You can request this letter after registering for IETF 79. For more detailed information see: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/79/visa.html 4. Accommodations, Breakfast and Cancellation Policy There are a block of guest room for the IETF at two hotels in Beijing, the main meeting venue - the Shangri-La Hotel Beijing, and the Hotel Nikko New Century Beijing. Additional hotel information and instructions on making your reservation and receiving the IETF group rate can be found at: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/79/hotel.html Room rates are inclusive of daily breakfast and in room high-speed Internet access. Reservations Cut off Date: October 22, 2010 Guaranteed Reservations to be Held: guaranteed reservations will be held until the night of the arrival date. All reservations must be accompanied by a valid credit card that shall be charged on the cut off date (October 22, 2010) for one night room and tax, which is refundable up to 72 hours prior to scheduled arrival date. Guest Cancellation: Individuals can cancel a reservation without penalty until 3 days prior to check-in/arrival. In case of cancellation less than 3 days to 1 day prior to expected arrival day, the Hotel will charge 2 nights of the room charges and a service charge. For non-arrival or no-show on expected arrival day, the Hotel holds the right to charge the individuals for 3 nights of the room charges and a service charge as cancellation fees. Check in time: 15:00; Check out time: 12:00 Early Departure Fee: An early departure fee of original duration at daily group rate and service charge will be applied to all rooms that do not notify the front desk within 24 hours of an early check out. Hotel will confirm with guest at the time of check in on the scheduled departure date. If guest gives the Hotel an advance notice of 24 hours, the Hotel will not charge any penalty. NOTE: The distance between the Hotel Nikko and the Shangri-La Hotel is approximately 2.2 kilometers (1.37 miles) 8-10 minutes by cab or bus (depending on traffic) and 20-30 minutes walking (though not recommended, it may be rather cold). A shuttle bus will be provided between the two venues running continually between the hotels for 1 hour prior and 1 hour after the event everyday from November 7-12, 2010. During the conference hours on November 8-12, 2010 the shuttle bus will be running between the two hotels every 1 hour. Cab prices between the Shangri-La and Nikko will cost approximately RMB 10-15. (approximately USD 2.20; EUR 1.75, JPY 186) 5. Meeting Wiki A meetings wiki for the attendees of IETF meetings (Your Wiki) to exchange information about such matters as meeting venues, activities, specialty restaurants, transportation, currency, and local customs has been created. The wiki uses DokuWiki software and a users guide can be found here: http://www.dokuwiki.org/dokuwiki Your IETF 79 (Beijing) wiki can be found here: https://www.ietf.org/registration/MeetingWiki/wiki/ietf79 and is also accessible from the Beijing meeting page of the IETF website. Some headings have already created, but no real content exists yet. The two links to "soccer/football" and "bar BoFs" that exist under Events are there as examples of things you can create, but there is nothing there if you follow the links. The wiki can be viewed by anyone but can only be edited by registered meeting attendees. If you want to add information (a great restaurant, an informal event (soccer game), etc.) you will have to log into the wiki. If you have already registered for the meeting, you have an account waiting for you. Your login name is the email address that you used to register for the meeting; your password is your full 10 digit confirmation number. Note: this wiki is not intended to replace the host website, nor any other official meeting related site. Instead, the intent is that some of the information currently shared on the XXattendees mailing list be captured online in one location, where it will be easy for members of the community to locate and add to it. Our hope is that your wiki makes a contribution to your meeting experience. Only 45 days until the Beijing IETF! From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Wed Sep 22 11:58:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id CB1393A6A96; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:58:17 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Administrative Director To: IETF Announcement list Subject: RFP: Requirements Development for Working Group Charter Tools Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100922185817.CB1393A6A96@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:58:17 -0000 The IETF Administrative Oversight Committee (IAOC), on behalf of the IETF, announces this Request for Proposal to develop the requirements for Working Group Charter Tools. The successful bidder will enter into a contract with the Internet Society. The primary goal of this project is to develop consensus on a set of requirements for developing tools to serve the needs of the leadership, Secretariat, and community regarding working group charter creation, rechartering, and the closing of working groups. A key responsibility of the IESG is the creation, re-chartering, and closing of IETF working groups (WGs). Creation and Rechartering of WGs is a multi-step process. Currently, virtually all of the tasks are performed manually. The web-based tools will support three separate user groups and use cases: (a) for use by the ADs and other members of the IETF leadership, (b) for public use, where the community can view the status of working groups that are being created, being rechartered, and have been closed, and (c) for use by the Secretariat in performing the Secretariat's tasks related to these actions. The RFP can be found at: http://iaoc.ietf.org/rfpsrfis.html. Proposals must be received via email at rpelletier@isoc.org no later than October 11, 2010, 5:00 P.M. EDT. All questions/inquiries must be submitted in writing and must be received no later than midnight, EDT, September 27, 2010. Responses to questions and inquiries shall be posted on the IAOC website, iaoc.ietf.org/rfpsrfis.html by midnight, EDT, October 4, 2010. The point of contact regarding this RFP is the IETF Administrative Director, Ray Pelletier. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Wed Sep 22 13:58:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id A4A173A6A86; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Agenda To: Working Group Chairs Subject: 79th IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100922205846.A4A173A6A86@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Cc: irsg@isi.edu X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:58:46 -0000 79th IETF Beijing, China Meeting Dates: November 7-12, 2010 Host: Tsinghua University ----------------------------------------------------------------- IETF meetings start Monday morning and run through Friday mid-afternoon (15:15). We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups and BOFs. The milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related activities are as follows: NOTE: cutoff dates are subject to change. * 2010-09-27 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to schedule Working Group meetings at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). To request a Working Group session, use the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool. * 2010-09-27 (Monday): Cutoff date for Area Directors to approve BOFs at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). * 2010-10-06 (Wednesday): Preliminary agenda published for comment. * 2010-10-11 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to reschedule Working Group and BOF meetings 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). * 2010-10-11 (Monday): Working Group Chair approval for initial document (Version -00) submissions appreciated by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). * 2010-10-15 (Friday): Final agenda to be published. * 2010-10-27 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. * 2010-11-01 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. Submitting Requests for Working Group and BOF Sessions Please submit requests to schedule your Working Group sessions using the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting all of the information that the Secretariat requires to schedule your sessions. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi Instructions for using the tool are available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html Please send requests to schedule your BOF sessions to agenda@ietf.org. Please include the acronym of your BOF in the subject line of the message, and include all of the information specified in item (4) of "Requesting Meeting Sessions at IETF Meetings" in the body. (This document is included below.) Submitting Session Agendas For the convenience of meeting attendees, we ask that you submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions as early as possible. Draft Working Group agendas are due Wednesday, October 27 by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). Revised Working Group agendas are due no later than Monday, November 1 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). The proposed agenda for a BOF session should be submitted along with your request for a session. Please be sure to copy your Area Director on that message. Please submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions using the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool," a Web-based tool for making your meeting agenda, minutes, and presentation slides available to the community before, during, and after an IETF meeting. If you are a BOF chair, then you may use the tool to submit a revised agenda as well as other materials for your BOF once the BOF has been approved. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi Additional information about this tool is available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/meeting_materials_tool.html Agendas submitted via the tool will be available to the public on the "IETF Meeting Materials" Web page as soon as they are submitted. The URL for the "IETF 79 Meeting Materials" Web page is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=79 If you are a Working Group chair, then you already have accounts on the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool" and the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool." The same User ID and password will work for both tools. If you are a BOF chair who is not also a Working Group chair, then you will be given an account on the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool" when your BOF has been approved. If you require assistance in using either tool, or wish to report a bug, then please send a message to: ietf-action@ietf.org. =============================================================== For your convenience, comprehensive information on requesting meeting sessions at IETF 79 is presented below: 1. Requests to schedule Working Group sessions should be submitted using the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting all of the information required by the Secretariat to schedule your sessions. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi Instructions for using the tool are available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html If you require an account on this tool, or assistance in using it, then please send a message to ietf-action@ietf.org. If you are unable to use the tool, then you may send your request via e-mail to agenda@ietf.org, with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). Requests to schedule BOF sessions must be sent to agenda@ietf.org with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). When submitting a Working Group or BOF session request by e-mail, please include the Working Group or BOF acronym in the Subject line. 2. BOFs will NOT be scheduled unless the Area Director(s) approved request is accompanied by a BOF'S FULL NAME AND ACRONYM, AREA, CHAIR(S) NAME(S) (given together with e-mail address(es)), AN AGENDA AND FULL DESCRIPTION, and the information requested in (4) below. (Please read the BOF Procedure at: http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1bof-procedures.txt before requesting a session for a BOF.) 3. A Working Group may request either one or two sessions. If your Working Group requires more than two sessions, then your request must be approved by an Area Director. Additional sessions will be assigned, based on availability, after Friday, October 11, 2010 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), the cut-off date for requests to reschedule a session. 4. You MUST provide the following information before a Working Group or BOF session will be scheduled: a. Working Group or BOF full name with acronym in brackets: b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears: c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: d. Expected Attendance: e. Special requests: f. Number of sessions: g. Length of session: - 1 hour - 1 1/2 hours - 2 hours - 2 1/2 hours For more information on scheduling Working Group and BOF sessions, please refer to RFC 2418 (BCP 25), "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures" (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt). =============================================================== For your convenience please find here a list of the IETF Area Directors with their e-mail addresses: IETF Chair Russ Housley Applications Area (app) Alexey Melnikov Peter Saint-Andre Internet Area (int) Jari Arkko Ralph Droms Operations & Management Area (ops) Ronald Bonica Dan Romascanu Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Area (rai) Gonzalo Camarillo Robert Sparks Routing Area (rtg) Stewart Bryant Adrian Farrel Security Area (sec) Tim Polk Sean Turner Transport Area (tsv) Lars Eggert David Harrington =========================================================== 78th IETF Meeting Attendance Number Working Group 6lowpan - 106 6mam - 81 6man (second session) - 146 alto - 88 ancp - 16 apparea (AG) - 106 autoconf - 24 avt - 46 avt (2nd session) - 38 behave - 128 bfd - 57 bmwg - 20 ccamp - 75 ccamp (2nd session) - 68 codec - 68 conex WG - 85 core - 99 decade - 67 dhc - 44 dime - 22 dispatch - 71 dkim - 36 dnsext - 136 dnsext (second session) - 112 dnsop - 130 drinks - 34 dtnrg (RG) - 23 eai - 37 ecrit - 49 emu - 20 enum - 59 fecframe - 16 fedauth BoF - 101 forces - 10 ftpext2 BoF - 23 geopriv - 62 grow - 76 hasmat BoF - 72 hiprg (RG) - 48 hokey - 17 homegate BoF - 145 httpbis - 37 httpstate - 29 hybi - 43 iccrg (RG) - 61 idr - 69 intarea (AG) - 119 ipfix - 27 ippm - 28 ipsecme - 39 iri - NO SHEETS isis - 46 karp - 64 kitten - 27 l2vpn - 99 l3vpn - 47 ltans - 9 manet - 23 marf - 53 martini - 33 martini (2nd session) - 16 mboned - 17 mext - 42 mif - 73 mip4 - 23 mmusic - 38 mobopts (RG) - 24 morg - 13 mpls - 117 mpls (2nd session) - 93 mptcp - 82 mptcp (2nd session) - 79 msec - 19 multimob - 61 nea - 28 netconf - 33 netext - 42 netmod - 21 nfsv4 - 28 nmrg (RG) - 46 oauth - 52 opsarea (AG) - 59 opsawg - 79 opsec - 20 ospf - 58 p2psip - 57 pce - 28 pim - 19 pkix - 44 ppsp - 73 precis WG - 36 pwe3 - 125 radext - 26 rmt - 6 roll - 81 rtgarea (AG) - 114 rtgwg - 52 saag (AG) - 108 salud WG - 9 samrg (RG) - 29 savi - 24 sidr - 104 sieve - 13 sipclf - 23 sipcore - 63 siprec - 27 soc WG - 27 softwire - 68 tictoc - 57 tls - 38 trill - 87 tsvwg - 74 urnbis BoF - 32 v6ops - 136 v6ops (second session) - 87 vcarddav - 18 vnrg (RG) - 82 xmpp - 35 yam - 27 From ben@nostrum.com Sat Sep 25 09:05:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3143A6A94 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vOb3tq1lWVWB for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A353A69EF for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.6] (adsl-68-94-29-176.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net [68.94.29.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8PG5cxY029555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:05:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Message-Id: <565BDB8D-36FB-4EDA-A2AA-84BC036C0218@nostrum.com> From: Ben Campbell To: "wgchairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: iPad Mail (7B500) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 7B500) Subject: Bounces Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:05:34 -0500 Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 68.94.29.176 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 16:05:09 -0000 Is anyone else seeing an unusual number of bounce notices from work = group lists? I'm getting a sudden flurry of notices on SIMPLE about = subscriptions being removed due to bounces. From fred@cisco.com Sat Sep 25 13:47:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2D93A6A68 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:47:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OVBYp0H-YE8F for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E4D3A69EE for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEABv9nUyrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACiTHGoXJtpgnyCRwSEUIVq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,236,1283731200"; d="scan'208";a="260691360" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2010 20:48:10 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8PKmA2d007760; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:48:10 GMT Subject: Re: Bounces Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <565BDB8D-36FB-4EDA-A2AA-84BC036C0218@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:48:09 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <35BF54DE-5807-4BF6-959A-B3E883E74F0C@cisco.com> References: <565BDB8D-36FB-4EDA-A2AA-84BC036C0218@nostrum.com> To: Ben Campbell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:47:36 -0000 On Sep 25, 2010, at 9:05 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > Is anyone else seeing an unusual number of bounce notices from work = group lists? I'm getting a sudden flurry of notices on SIMPLE about = subscriptions being removed due to bounces. We moved v6ops from ops.ietf.org to ietf.org, which is more aggressive = about removing bouncing email addresses. Guess what; we got a flurry. I = also spoke with Glen Barney about some that we were getting "uncaught = bounces" on and were *not* getting removed; apparently mailman is pretty = arcane about its processing. At his suggestion, I gave him that list = (about 100 addresses), and he removed from from a variety of lists where = they were presumably bouncing at a rate just below the threshold. It may = be that you are seeing a side-effect of that, which ideally should be a = one-time event. Otherwise, no idea. Yeah, I see bounces too.= From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Sun Sep 26 14:38:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6BA3A6BCF for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 14:38:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.051 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.051 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.339, BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qx9ukgpbk4Uo for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 14:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail5.alcatel.fr (smail5.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8551C3A6BC3 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 14:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.61]) by smail5.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id o8QLcZH1015095 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:38:36 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.44]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.61]) with mapi; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:38:35 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Ben Campbell , "wgchairs@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:38:34 +0200 Subject: RE: Bounces Thread-Topic: Bounces Thread-Index: Actcy4Srqnx73hjTQfaBnxqsjmeIRQA93Xxg Message-ID: References: <565BDB8D-36FB-4EDA-A2AA-84BC036C0218@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <565BDB8D-36FB-4EDA-A2AA-84BC036C0218@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.13 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:38:25 -0000 Well until you sent some messages recently, the SIMPLE list had no traffic = for at least 2 weeks. That is sufficient time for a number of addresses to = become irrelevant. On the still extant SIP list we have a similar issue, wi= th bounces coming in once anyone sends an infrequent message.=20 Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org=20 > [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:06 PM > To: wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: Bounces >=20 > Is anyone else seeing an unusual number of bounce notices=20 > from work group lists? I'm getting a sudden flurry of notices=20 > on SIMPLE about subscriptions being removed due to bounces. > = From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Mon Sep 27 09:09:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB3A3A6D27 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:09:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.681 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.681 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.296, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CcArlZmUOKgY for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 415F43A6B65 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3so836181pwi.31 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=hQ7VGz6+icY65mpvggdfgY9UkK7qEW4cVuz2VDCH02g=; b=OJJUmML1dTCriiWHp2tcbNiNJ4S6vOC6B8CdJm8D7zfMH+Ur9Mb/dREleeWXE8mWJj 6usthy4OdrIcKd0byEGIqNFgU+Z2yiNT3dEk9VlN7g0xPLoEmORiAGrtAb7zmU3pr3kt klPm9Kmx1xRs3ow7M9OcNsFr7EILW1E85C2M4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=huZo/nujVVfoKVK9jFO1C3XOoMmkwHifzULDPSjVjR+zA+10ywK8gwfGTSQ5y3hh/9 XNs1+E+NjRnH/zXwnNQoGiwpub4gp5/BGtrE5hfL3A+wRFOjSDd1mzpXq7cMNi3JAwJT mKqqkD9fCr5pvalwJ0Szc0uK0AD4ep+Jk/7XY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.156.18 with SMTP id d18mr6168471wfe.81.1285603781113; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.42.3.75 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:09:41 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: LNgK4bi233Jxuf3xYDkPQN3bSXI Message-ID: Subject: Reply-To on IETF mailing lists From: Barry Leiba To: Working Group Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:09:03 -0000 I've recently found (I don't know whether it's a recent phenomenon) that the IETF mailing lists appear to be stripping Reply-To mail headers from messages, *even when the mailing list is not configured to do so*. Mailman has at least three settings that will affect the handling of existing Reply-To addresses: anonymous_list -- If this is "yes", Mailman will remove From, Sender and Reply-To, and set a new From to the list address. first_strip_reply_to -- If this is "yes", Mailman will remove Reply-To. reply_goes_to_list -- If this is "poster", Mailman will make no changes to Reply-To. This can also be set to "this list", or "explicit address", in which case Mailman will replace any existing Reply-To or insert a new one, with either the list address or an address specified in the "reply_to_address" item. Mailman has this to say in its help for these options: > There are many reasons not to introduce or override the Reply-To: header. > One is that some posters depend on their own Reply-To: settings to convey > their valid return address. ...and that's exactly the problem I've been having. But it is a religious thing, and I don't take issue if a mailing list owner futzes with these settings intentionally. The problem is that the lists I've checked that are hosted at ietf.org have not been futzed with: they all have anonymous_list and first_strip_reply_to set to "no", and reply_goes_to_list set to "poster", which are the defaults... and yet they are stripping Reply-To. The DKIM list, which uses Mailman but is not at ietf.org, does *not* do this. I think it's a bug in Mailman as installed at ietf.org. I've raised the issue with Glen, but he's understandably reluctant to change anything without some consensus. On the other hand, if it *is* a bug (or error in the way Mailman was installed/configured), I don't think consensus is needed to fix that. Has anyone intentionally played with these settings on your WG's mailing lists? Does anyone else have problems with this situation? Does anyone have an opinion about getting this fixed? Barry Leiba (chair: dkim, marf, morg, vwrap) From dwing@cisco.com Mon Sep 27 09:47:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C603A6D8A for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:47:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.394 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.394 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.205, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Da7kcdhltKjd for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA893A6D33 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAGNnoEyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACVN4xdcawLnD6FRASEUA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,243,1283731200"; d="scan'208";a="365698339" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Sep 2010 16:47:03 +0000 Received: from dwingWS ([10.32.240.196]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8RGl3rD020710; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:47:03 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Barry Leiba'" , "'Working Group Chairs'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: Reply-To on IETF mailing lists Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:47:03 -0700 Message-ID: <067b01cb5e63$9ce61a10$d6b24e30$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: ActeXmcbFwlbDiTnSPeM5ZjPm7qQCgAAqslw Content-Language: en-us X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:47:54 -0000 > Has anyone intentionally played with these settings on your WG's > mailing lists? Does anyone else have problems with this situation? > Does anyone have an opinion about getting this fixed? I agree Reply-To should be passed through. On some lists I know it works (BEHAVE, for example). It is useful to help re-direct followup discussions to a single list rather than spraying the followups across 3-4 lists. -d From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Mon Sep 27 10:32:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 0C85D3A6DB1; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 10:31:24 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Agenda To: Working Group Chairs Subject: 79th IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling - REMINDER - Closes Today at 5PM PT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100927173144.0C85D3A6DB1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 10:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: irsg@isi.edu X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:32:35 -0000 79th IETF Beijing, China Meeting Dates: November 7-12, 2010 Host: Tsinghua University ----------------------------------------------------------------- IETF meetings start Monday morning and run through Friday mid-afternoon (15:15). We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups. The milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related activities are as follows: NOTE: cutoff dates are subject to change. * 2010-09-27 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to schedule Working Group meetings at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). To request a Working Group session, use the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool. * 2010-10-07 (Thursday): Preliminary agenda published for comment. * 2010-10-11 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to reschedule Working Group and BOF meetings 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). * 2010-10-11 (Monday): Working Group Chair approval for initial document (Version -00) submissions appreciated by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). * 2010-10-15 (Friday): Final agenda to be published. * 2010-10-27 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. * 2010-11-01 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. Submitting Requests for Working Group and BOF Sessions Please submit requests to schedule your Working Group sessions using the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting all of the information that the Secretariat requires to schedule your sessions. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi Instructions for using the tool are available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html Please send requests to schedule your BOF sessions to agenda@ietf.org. Please include the acronym of your BOF in the subject line of the message, and include all of the information specified in item (4) of "Requesting Meeting Sessions at IETF Meetings" in the body. (This document is included below.) Submitting Session Agendas For the convenience of meeting attendees, we ask that you submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions as early as possible. Draft Working Group agendas are due Wednesday, October 27 by 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). Revised Working Group agendas are due no later than Monday, November 1 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). The proposed agenda for a BOF session should be submitted along with your request for a session. Please be sure to copy your Area Director on that message. Please submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions using the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool," a Web-based tool for making your meeting agenda, minutes, and presentation slides available to the community before, during, and after an IETF meeting. If you are a BOF chair, then you may use the tool to submit a revised agenda as well as other materials for your BOF once the BOF has been approved. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi Additional information about this tool is available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/meeting_materials_tool.html Agendas submitted via the tool will be available to the public on the "IETF Meeting Materials" Web page as soon as they are submitted. The URL for the "IETF 79 Meeting Materials" Web page is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=79 If you are a Working Group chair, then you already have accounts on the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool" and the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool." The same User ID and password will work for both tools. If you are a BOF chair who is not also a Working Group chair, then you will be given an account on the "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool" when your BOF has been approved. If you require assistance in using either tool, or wish to report a bug, then please send a message to: ietf-action@ietf.org. =============================================================== For your convenience, comprehensive information on requesting meeting sessions at IETF 79 is presented below: 1. Requests to schedule Working Group sessions should be submitted using the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting all of the information required by the Secretariat to schedule your sessions. The URL for the tool is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi Instructions for using the tool are available at: http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html If you require an account on this tool, or assistance in using it, then please send a message to ietf-action@ietf.org. If you are unable to use the tool, then you may send your request via e-mail to agenda@ietf.org, with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). Requests to schedule BOF sessions must be sent to agenda@ietf.org with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). When submitting a Working Group or BOF session request by e-mail, please include the Working Group or BOF acronym in the Subject line. 2. BOFs will NOT be scheduled unless the Area Director(s) approved request is accompanied by a BOF'S FULL NAME AND ACRONYM, AREA, CHAIR(S) NAME(S) (given together with e-mail address(es)), AN AGENDA AND FULL DESCRIPTION, and the information requested in (4) below. (Please read the BOF Procedure at: http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1bof-procedures.txt before requesting a session for a BOF.) 3. A Working Group may request either one or two sessions. If your Working Group requires more than two sessions, then your request must be approved by an Area Director. Additional sessions will be assigned, based on availability, after Friday, October 11, 2010 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC), the cut-off date for requests to reschedule a session. 4. You MUST provide the following information before a Working Group or BOF session will be scheduled: a. Working Group or BOF full name with acronym in brackets: b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears: c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: d. Expected Attendance: e. Special requests: f. Number of sessions: g. Length of session: - 1 hour - 1 1/2 hours - 2 hours - 2 1/2 hours For more information on scheduling Working Group and BOF sessions, please refer to RFC 2418 (BCP 25), "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures" (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt). =============================================================== For your convenience please find here a list of the IETF Area Directors with their e-mail addresses: IETF Chair Russ Housley Applications Area (app) Alexey Melnikov Peter Saint-Andre Internet Area (int) Jari Arkko Ralph Droms Operations & Management Area (ops) Ronald Bonica Dan Romascanu Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Area (rai) Gonzalo Camarillo Robert Sparks Routing Area (rtg) Stewart Bryant Adrian Farrel Security Area (sec) Tim Polk Sean Turner Transport Area (tsv) Lars Eggert David Harrington =========================================================== 78th IETF Meeting Attendance Number Working Group 6lowpan - 106 6mam - 81 6man (second session) - 146 alto - 88 ancp - 16 apparea (AG) - 106 autoconf - 24 avt - 46 avt (2nd session) - 38 behave - 128 bfd - 57 bmwg - 20 ccamp - 75 ccamp (2nd session) - 68 codec - 68 conex WG - 85 core - 99 decade - 67 dhc - 44 dime - 22 dispatch - 71 dkim - 36 dnsext - 136 dnsext (second session) - 112 dnsop - 130 drinks - 34 dtnrg (RG) - 23 eai - 37 ecrit - 49 emu - 20 enum - 59 fecframe - 16 fedauth BoF - 101 forces - 10 ftpext2 BoF - 23 geopriv - 62 grow - 76 hasmat BoF - 72 hiprg (RG) - 48 hokey - 17 homegate BoF - 145 httpbis - 37 httpstate - 29 hybi - 43 iccrg (RG) - 61 idr - 69 intarea (AG) - 119 ipfix - 27 ippm - 28 ipsecme - 39 iri - NO SHEETS isis - 46 karp - 64 kitten - 27 l2vpn - 99 l3vpn - 47 ltans - 9 manet - 23 marf - 53 martini - 33 martini (2nd session) - 16 mboned - 17 mext - 42 mif - 73 mip4 - 23 mmusic - 38 mobopts (RG) - 24 morg - 13 mpls - 117 mpls (2nd session) - 93 mptcp - 82 mptcp (2nd session) - 79 msec - 19 multimob - 61 nea - 28 netconf - 33 netext - 42 netmod - 21 nfsv4 - 28 nmrg (RG) - 46 oauth - 52 opsarea (AG) - 59 opsawg - 79 opsec - 20 ospf - 58 p2psip - 57 pce - 28 pim - 19 pkix - 44 ppsp - 73 precis WG - 36 pwe3 - 125 radext - 26 rmt - 6 roll - 81 rtgarea (AG) - 114 rtgwg - 52 saag (AG) - 108 salud WG - 9 samrg (RG) - 29 savi - 24 sidr - 104 sieve - 13 sipclf - 23 sipcore - 63 siprec - 27 soc WG - 27 softwire - 68 tictoc - 57 tls - 38 trill - 87 tsvwg - 74 urnbis BoF - 32 v6ops - 136 v6ops (second session) - 87 vcarddav - 18 vnrg (RG) - 82 xmpp - 35 yam - 27 From ben@nostrum.com Mon Sep 27 14:43:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB00E3A6BC5 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:43:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gtEgXpyFjsRT for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F973A6DB4 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dn3-174.estacado.net (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8RLiGfN086260 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:44:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: CC on mailing lists Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:44:16 -0500 Message-Id: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> To: WG Chairs Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: "Glen Barney \(AMS\)" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:43:53 -0000 I'm seeing something strange with CC headers on the SIMPLE list. = Messages I send with multiple CC header entries are getting some entries = stripped out. For example, here's the CC header on a message I sent. The = original message was sent by Mail.app Version 4.3 (1081) on OS X 10.6.4. > Cc: Hisham Khartabil , > "Richard L. Barnes" , > Alan Johnston And here's the CC header on the version forwarded out by the list = server: > Cc: Alan Johnston Here's another: > Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, > Hisham Khartabil ... was changed to: > Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org Any thoughts, other than maybe mailman is mad at Hisham :-) If there's a = syntax error there, my eyeballs are missing it. From dwing@cisco.com Mon Sep 27 15:16:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB89A3A6DDD for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:16:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OwCwm0VVHCd7 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0AD13A6BDE for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EALq0oEyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACVO4xcca04nHmFRASEUItL X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,244,1283731200"; d="scan'208";a="192660018" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Sep 2010 22:14:47 +0000 Received: from dwingWS ([10.32.240.196]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8RMEkP5010669; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:14:46 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Ben Campbell'" , "'WG Chairs'" References: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> Subject: RE: CC on mailing lists Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:14:47 -0700 Message-ID: <08bb01cb5e91$65781af0$306850d0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: ActejUwUqpeGQN69QHm13EG8PkIxDQAA4YKw Content-Language: en-us Cc: "'Glen Barney \(AMS\)'" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:16:48 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Ben Campbell > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:44 PM > To: WG Chairs > Cc: Glen Barney (AMS) > Subject: CC on mailing lists > > I'm seeing something strange with CC headers on the SIMPLE list. > Messages I send with multiple CC header entries are getting some > entries stripped out. For example, here's the CC header on a message I > sent. The original message was sent by Mail.app Version 4.3 (1081) on > OS X 10.6.4. > > > > Cc: Hisham Khartabil , > > "Richard L. Barnes" , > > Alan Johnston > > And here's the CC header on the version forwarded out by the list > server: > > > Cc: Alan Johnston > > > Here's another: > > > Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, > > Hisham Khartabil > > ... was changed to: > > > Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org > > Any thoughts, other than maybe mailman is mad at Hisham :-) If there's > a syntax error there, my eyeballs are missing it. Line continuations need to start with one (or more) spaces or tab characters. Thus, these two lines have a syntax error, the second line is interpreted as a mal-formed header field starting with "Hisham": 1.Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, 2.Hisham Khartabil to be interpreted as expected, the second line has to start with one (or more) spaces or tab characters, like so: 1.Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, 2. Hisham Khartabil ....^ ....^ note the " " -d From d3e3e3@gmail.com Mon Sep 27 15:24:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D233A6BD5 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.033 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.033 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JfeOS6D3kd1e for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2EAE3A6B48 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wyi11 with SMTP id 11so5841536wyi.31 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:25:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Btgcm/7imhqLQAPq0H5Ya5oN0w/RbtM9MftdSmJ1S98=; b=WdSjDozjsJsTKmZ7Dfqb63O1ChiOvRxqJXk2V+lZ8Fv9IdPKmqotoKg0d9FdZLUjsf Nw1dfeRhw2Z7MLTVVXyKZR6+aGJvN6U0haVWdDfAVXlWxjtPZbw39PE1xdMCKdR7Y8eB 4QwOEY3ge2y0F3e23qg7hfkX6thOdiWCh4fbM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=azUNmMfgVMJD09zByL104UXbFNYTW88TpvjG3SWMJBI8vZ0kB1VXg2kMNqi53ehAj5 lZ0RVO0liaidk5S3gFNphDwaAcrnJk5acncq7pQFv/uhcltUIc3La1mK8hp0PKp4asYF FiEudjf4qj0G26/lbtdpGvufJGeECMaPt4p4Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.152.131 with SMTP id g3mr6989971wbw.108.1285625983672; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.134 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:19:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> References: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 18:19:43 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CC on mailing lists From: Donald Eastlake To: Ben Campbell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: WG Chairs , "Glen Barney \(AMS\)" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:24:30 -0000 I have seen something similar. I think that when you send mail to a mailing list and cc individuals, those individuals who are subscribed to the mailing list may get stripped as cc's. Thanks, Donald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > I'm seeing something strange with CC headers on the SIMPLE list. Messages= I send with multiple CC header entries are getting some entries stripped o= ut. For example, here's the CC header on a message I sent. The original mes= sage was sent by Mail.app Version 4.3 (1081) on OS X 10.6.4. > > >> Cc: Hisham Khartabil , >> "Richard L. Barnes" , >> Alan Johnston > > And here's the CC header on the version forwarded out by the list server: > >> Cc: Alan Johnston > > > Here's another: > >> Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, >> Hisham Khartabil > > ... was changed to: > >> Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org > > Any thoughts, other than maybe mailman is mad at Hisham :-) If there's a = syntax error there, my eyeballs are missing it. > > > > From julienl@qualcomm.com Mon Sep 27 17:57:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A703A6B69 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:57:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.28 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.28 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.281, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e92+fMSbe1x5 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC2A3A6A80 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:57:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=julienl@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1285635518; x=1317171518; h=from:to:cc:date:subject:thread-topic:thread-index: message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language: content-language:x-ms-has-attach:x-ms-tnef-correlator: acceptlanguage:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; z=From:=20"Laganier,=20Julien"=20 |To:=20Ben=20Campbell=20,=20WG=20Chairs =20|CC:=20"Glen=20Barney=20(AMS)"=20|Date:=20Mon,=2027=20Sep=202010=2017:58:35 =20-0700|Subject:=20RE:=20CC=20on=20mailing=20lists |Thread-Topic:=20CC=20on=20mailing=20lists|Thread-Index: =20ActejVcDbOxRBHeXQveepD4btKi2KwAGo8uQ|Message-ID:=20|References:=20<50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB398 0CC2291@nostrum.com>|In-Reply-To:=20<50136FA5-D155-439B-B 269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com>|Accept-Language:=20en-US |Content-Language:=20en-US|X-MS-Has-Attach: |X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:|acceptlanguage:=20en-US |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii" |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted-printable |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=Ffmu8qCXY3c9zl54DGtTj8V6KnhTL5idM8uOZfBJK0c=; b=WNuD7UzkLj4G+ATQVpHEpbsXChKSQ4JDh6UuGBADuccWVzprPM15E8WV JrE25AwtHnu9sbtm5ute5EbinDmC1ZlwnK0B/xozHYoAfnXBsXAwvbkqq m7tKmfEBhkBOeRva2tDDVQMmxhBx7fINTqDg/W1N2xjRaJvpGhCd5CYjE w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6119"; a="55911918" Received: from ironmsg03-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.18]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 27 Sep 2010 17:58:38 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,243,1283756400"; d="scan'208";a="9888738" Received: from nasanexhub03.na.qualcomm.com ([10.46.93.98]) by Ironmsg03-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 27 Sep 2010 17:58:38 -0700 Received: from nalasexhub02.na.qualcomm.com (10.47.130.89) by nasanexhub03.na.qualcomm.com (10.46.93.98) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:58:37 -0700 Received: from NALASEXMB04.na.qualcomm.com ([10.47.7.114]) by nalasexhub02.na.qualcomm.com ([10.47.130.89]) with mapi; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:58:37 -0700 From: "Laganier, Julien" To: Ben Campbell , WG Chairs Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:58:35 -0700 Subject: RE: CC on mailing lists Thread-Topic: CC on mailing lists Thread-Index: ActejVcDbOxRBHeXQveepD4btKi2KwAGo8uQ Message-ID: References: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Glen Barney \(AMS\)" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 00:57:59 -0000 The person that are stripped from CC: have probably enabled the following M= ailman feature in their account settings: "Avoid duplicate copies of message? When you are listed explicitly in the T= o: or Cc: headers of a list message, you can opt to not receive another cop= y from the mailing list. Select Yes to avoid receiving copies from the mail= ing list; select No to receive copies. ( ) No. (X) Yes. [ ] Set Globally" HTH, --julien Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 > I'm seeing something strange with CC headers on the SIMPLE list. > Messages I send with multiple CC header entries are getting some > entries stripped out. For example, here's the CC header on a message I > sent. The original message was sent by Mail.app Version 4.3 (1081) on > OS X 10.6.4. >=20 >=20 > > Cc: Hisham Khartabil , > > "Richard L. Barnes" , > > Alan Johnston >=20 > And here's the CC header on the version forwarded out by the list > server: >=20 > > Cc: Alan Johnston >=20 >=20 > Here's another: >=20 > > Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, > > Hisham Khartabil >=20 > ... was changed to: >=20 > > Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org >=20 > Any thoughts, other than maybe mailman is mad at Hisham :-) If there's > a syntax error there, my eyeballs are missing it. >=20 >=20 From ben@nostrum.com Mon Sep 27 20:16:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 416A63A6C22 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:16:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.254, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nlvAQNexMG6S for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B5E3A6BD3 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.6] (adsl-68-94-29-176.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net [68.94.29.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8S3Ge55011834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:16:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) References: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> Message-Id: From: Ben Campbell To: "Laganier, Julien" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: iPad Mail (7B500) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 7B500) Subject: Re: CC on mailing lists Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:16:32 -0500 Cc: WG Chairs , "Glen Barney \(AMS\)" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 03:16:17 -0000 Yep, I bet that's it. You learn something new every day. Thanks! Ben. On Sep 27, 2010, at 7:58 PM, "Laganier, Julien" = wrote: > The person that are stripped from CC: have probably enabled the = following Mailman feature in their account settings: >=20 > "Avoid duplicate copies of message? When you are listed explicitly in = the To: or Cc: headers of a list message, you can opt to not receive = another copy from the mailing list. Select Yes to avoid receiving copies = from the mailing list; select No to receive copies. ( ) No. (X) Yes. [ ] = Set Globally" >=20 > HTH, >=20 > --julien >=20 >=20 > Ben Campbell wrote: >>=20 >> I'm seeing something strange with CC headers on the SIMPLE list. >> Messages I send with multiple CC header entries are getting some >> entries stripped out. For example, here's the CC header on a message = I >> sent. The original message was sent by Mail.app Version 4.3 (1081) on >> OS X 10.6.4. >>=20 >>=20 >>> Cc: Hisham Khartabil , >>> "Richard L. Barnes" , >>> Alan Johnston >>=20 >> And here's the CC header on the version forwarded out by the list >> server: >>=20 >>> Cc: Alan Johnston >>=20 >>=20 >> Here's another: >>=20 >>> Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, >>> Hisham Khartabil >>=20 >> ... was changed to: >>=20 >>> Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org >>=20 >> Any thoughts, other than maybe mailman is mad at Hisham :-) If = there's >> a syntax error there, my eyeballs are missing it. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From ben@nostrum.com Mon Sep 27 20:19:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676EF3A6C19 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:19:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.055, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t89GNAbS9XIt for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D83A3A6C24 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.6] (adsl-68-94-29-176.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net [68.94.29.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8S3KLh9012155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:20:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) References: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> <08bb01cb5e91$65781af0$306850d0$@com> Message-Id: From: Ben Campbell To: Dan Wing In-Reply-To: <08bb01cb5e91$65781af0$306850d0$@com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-246652674 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (7B500) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 7B500) Subject: Re: CC on mailing lists Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:20:13 -0500 Cc: WG Chairs , "Glen Barney \(AMS\)" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 03:20:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1-246652674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sep 27, 2010, at 5:14 PM, "Dan Wing" wrote: [...] >=20 > Line continuations need to start with one (or more) spaces or tab > characters. Thus, these two lines have a syntax error, the second = line is > interpreted as a mal-formed header field starting with "Hisham": >=20 > 1.Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, > 2.Hisham Khartabil >=20 > to be interpreted as expected, the second line has to start with one = (or > more)=20 > spaces or tab characters, like so: >=20 > 1.Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org, > 2. Hisham Khartabil > ....^ > ....^ > note the " " Actually, the space is there, it just got obscured by the cut and paste = rendering. Note that in the first example, the surviving entry was the = third one. >=20 --Apple-Mail-1-246652674 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sep 27, 2010, at 5:14 PM, "Dan = Wing" <dwing@cisco.com> = wrote:

[...]


Line continuations need to start with = one (or more) spaces or tab
characters.  Thus, = these two lines have a syntax error, the second line = is
interpreted as a mal-formed header field starting = with "Hisham":

 1.Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org,=
 2.Hisham Khartabil <hisham.khartabil@gmail.com&= gt;

to be interpreted as expected, the = second line has to start with one (or
more) =
spaces or tab characters, like = so:

 1.Cc: xcon-chairs@tools.ietf.org,=
 2. Hisham Khartabil <hisham.khartabil@gmail.com&= gt;
....^
....^
=   note the " = "

Actually, the space = is there, it just got obscured by the cut and paste rendering. Note that = in the first example, the surviving entry was the third = one.

= --Apple-Mail-1-246652674-- From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Tue Sep 28 08:19:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietf.org Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id D8BF93A6DE5; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:19:50 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Administrative Director To: IETF Announcement list Subject: RIM to Host IETF 81 in Quebec City Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100928151950.D8BF93A6DE5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 15:19:51 -0000 The IAOC and the Internet Society are very pleased to announce that Research In Motion (RIM) will be be the Host for IETF 81 in Quebec City. [http://www.rim.com/] RIM is the company behind the BlackBerry® brand, including the recently announced Blackberry Playbook tablet. Quebec City Canada is the site for IETF 81 from 24 - 29 July 2011. This will be the first time the IETF has met in Quebec City. The meeting will be held at the Quebec City Conference Centre, http://www.convention.qc.ca/tiki-index.php?page=HomePage . We want to thank our benefactors. The IETF cannot support its technical standards efforts, including the Secretariat and RFC Editor, without the generous support of its hosts and sponsors. We are less than 6 weeks away from IETF 79 in Beijing hosted by Tsinghua University. [http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/eng/index.jsp] Registrations are open and operators are standing by (so to speak). Visit https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf79/ietfreg.py and join the 400 who have already registered. Been thinking about hosting or sponsoring a future meeting? The meetings calendar through 2017 [www.ietf.org/meetings/0mtg-sites.txt] shows some of the possibilities. Just send Drew Dvorshak an email at dvorshak@isoc.org and he can walk you through the opportunity. Thanks again RIM! We couldn't do it without you. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Tue Sep 28 10:23:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7403A6C8F for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wnC8O+LubcCg for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com (mail-pv0-f172.google.com [74.125.83.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24CF63A6C0F for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pvg7 with SMTP id 7so2128453pvg.31 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:24:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=rPmxu2071FZwWPx6CDUD6QD7w0AlrEDyoqL7FXZARMg=; b=LcMBuZEZkr0/Y76EZ88BC/Tjr21p19OvCvQkYpIf+ujrbax90vzN9rAByMuihZ4ZTx 0ajm5qgJqFYLJYJ3lsnCNmoMix5108vaKXW8mXsBH9JKXA2ZczRWvIjpyeyhyO5RU/+7 U7QTyVqM5eIU5bYcwknSEERUkVk8seW6IbBUk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=A+Tck/ZPQgmMZ8/aJJit4+6GHIWmrogPB2f4JY4BNcOtmRWNwv/4EL85AE1XyCcKi1 hJ6QZe5Ehr1Za0MjMPcKEG4J0QK/9+tysXR1LqPHMAij59GrD59xiBpg2Q75vNrvVeOb 4loynD2Zl4d8HtJTSGIo7PasnEHLV4ldwtPB4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.164.18 with SMTP id m18mr226416wfe.219.1285694649441; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.42.3.75 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:24:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:24:08 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: k5I8B-tiTXUqMKGziYTzcwWTCdU Message-ID: Subject: Re: CC on mailing lists From: Barry Leiba To: "Laganier, Julien" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "Glen Barney \(AMS\)" , WG Chairs X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:23:31 -0000 On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Laganier, Julien wrote: > The person that are stripped from CC: have probably enabled the following > Mailman feature in their account settings: > > "Avoid duplicate copies of message? When you are listed explicitly in the > To: or Cc: headers of a list message, you can opt to not receive another > copy from the mailing list. Select Yes to avoid receiving copies from the > mailing list; select No to receive copies. ( ) No. (X) Yes. [ ] Set Globally" I don't think that's the answer. I *think* (though I'm not certain) that Mailman handles this not by stripping CCs (which wouldn't help, because you have already sent the CCs directly to those people), but by *not* sending the mailing-list entry to them, because it assumes that they've already gotten their copies through the CC entries. That seems to mean that Mailman is stripping these CCs incorrectly, which might be related to the Reply-To issue that I've raised. Barry From ben@nostrum.com Tue Sep 28 11:26:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E596B3A6D64 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JAqSGA0O9nQu for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD9F3A6CB9 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.12] (adsl-68-94-29-176.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net [68.94.29.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8SIQTIX094331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:26:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Subject: Re: CC on mailing lists Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:26:25 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <851EDAAC-C0AA-4A53-B367-C9BF91E851F0@nostrum.com> References: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: WG Chairs , "Laganier, Julien" , "Glen Barney \(AMS\)" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:26:08 -0000 On Sep 28, 2010, at 12:24 PM, Barry Leiba wrote: > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Laganier, Julien = wrote: >> The person that are stripped from CC: have probably enabled the = following >> Mailman feature in their account settings: >>=20 >> "Avoid duplicate copies of message? When you are listed explicitly in = the >> To: or Cc: headers of a list message, you can opt to not receive = another >> copy from the mailing list. Select Yes to avoid receiving copies from = the >> mailing list; select No to receive copies. ( ) No. (X) Yes. [ ] Set = Globally" >=20 > I don't think that's the answer. I *think* (though I'm not certain) > that Mailman handles this not by stripping CCs (which wouldn't help, > because you have already sent the CCs directly to those people), but > by *not* sending the mailing-list entry to them, because it assumes > that they've already gotten their copies through the CC entries. >=20 > That seems to mean that Mailman is stripping these CCs incorrectly, > which might be related to the Reply-To issue that I've raised. >=20 I was thinking that it might strip CCs so that replies are less likely = to have CC or To entries that duplicate list entries. I have no = knowledge as to whether it does that, it's just something I can imagine = someone coming up with. > Barry From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Tue Sep 28 22:26:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3726A3A6DE8 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:26:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.692 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.692 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.285, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6fjUiSaORsKe for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A4E3A6E6B for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn3 with SMTP id 3so681679iwn.31 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:27:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=nE8mp4P2/sUrTj9fPuxllEdEkiJe8eKZXXGUK9nBqFw=; b=aIt6W4HlEYAS4XrDW7Gauvc7eMJF49ZZfOga2wNq01NKxiNzgpltWqzJEQOFyMfIOD fA7mN/W1vaX0q2usR0fWeSfomGzhNMAATl0UNjNBT7R/wuSDnSNvuPqdnKw9qYAZJ46X 0Hmu08d6zg0lMq3hPGOmvV3zfSguhEy+JJR6o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=hnJP7QPKCKT5+d60ksRkD8J0Fqh1maZ8utDXWya02sAW61R5Nm94ovz4wVLaJIc0/5 1fntmKQ6ez5u/GFF4Kg50MpCak2KblWaKJ6fgJxc9WKD8tBWcb6neOXSDiisBSxoNmdh kli05AbKTe5YR+0bG3r9TqzEgW8CtZI731fQQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.4.206 with SMTP id 14mr1335150ict.29.1285738021608; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.42.3.75 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:27:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 01:27:01 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Cl-HMsm0Lc9CpGOTzqxnStQaRgE Message-ID: Subject: Re: Reply-To on IETF mailing lists From: Barry Leiba To: Working Group Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 05:26:21 -0000 > I've recently found (I don't know whether it's a recent phenomenon) > that the IETF mailing lists appear to be stripping Reply-To mail > headers from messages, *even when the mailing list is not configured > to do so*. Thanks, Dan Wing, for debugging this with me. I'm not certain yet, but I now *think* this is an intermittent problem on my end, wherein the Reply-To is sometimes not included. I'll work on figuring out what's what, but I no longer think this is a Mailman problem. (Thanks also to Glen for your earlier off-list responses.) Barry From john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com Tue Sep 28 23:43:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806D43A6C3D for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 23:43:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6zz6MDpgti5Q for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 23:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms01.m0019.fra.mmp.de.bt.com (m0019.fra.mmp.de.bt.com [62.180.227.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F843A6C22 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 23:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from senmx12-mx ([62.134.46.10] [62.134.46.10]) by ms01.m0020.fra.mmp.de.bt.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1667054; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:43:57 +0200 Received: from MCHP064A.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.37.63]) by senmx12-mx (Server) with ESMTP id E2BFF23F0278; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:43:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from MCHP058A.global-ad.net ([172.29.37.55]) by MCHP064A.global-ad.net ([172.29.37.63]) with mapi; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:43:58 +0200 From: "Elwell, John" To: 'IETF WG Chairs' Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:43:56 +0200 Subject: Tracker etiquette Thread-Topic: Tracker etiquette Thread-Index: ActfobAgP2GLqUeHR6GaV5TY7AAz0g== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Henrik Levkowetz X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 06:43:18 -0000 In the group I co-chair, SIPREC, we have been using the issue tracker. I am= aware of its use in several other RAI WGs (SIPCORE, GEOPRIV, MARTINI), and= doubtless a lot more groups use it. There has been a thread on SIPCORE rec= ently on tracker etiquette - the way it is used, particularly in conjunctio= n with the mailing lists. During a SIPREC interim yesterday, we received co= mplaints about practices, and clearly come guidelines are needed. Rather th= an each WG developing its own guidelines, it might make sense to have some = common guidelines (although each WG might want to tailor these to its own n= eeds). This WG chairs list seemed like a good place to kick off the discuss= ion. The sort of issues that are coming up are: - When to use the mailing list, versus when to add a comment to the tracker= . - Lack of information in the subject field of tracker-generated mailing lis= t messages to indicate the work item to which the issue relates. - Lack of the original issue text or previous comments in a tracker-generat= ed mailing list message. - Difficulty interleaving comment text within the original issue text or pr= evious comment text. Some of these are motivated by the need for somebody reading emails off-lin= e (e.g., on a plane) to know what an email is talking about. Another issue is long term archives - mailing lists are archived long-term,= but I am not sure we have quite the same guarantees with the tracker. Another issue I personally experience is slowness of response when using th= e tracker (I don't know to what extend this affects others), which makes it= inconvenient to use the tracker as a substitute for information that could= have been provided in the mailing list message and discourages me from usi= ng it for simply adding a comment, say. (This isn't the prime focus of this= thread, but for me, average response time for navigating from one issue to= the next, back to query, and so on, is about 12-13s, compared with about 2= -3s for datatracker queries.) It seems to me the tracker is good for recording an issue and its subsequen= t changes of state. It is not so good for discussing an issue. Even when an= issue is closed, say, there needs to be something on the mailing list that= says what the issue is that has been closed, not just its tracker number. So questions for the list: - Do people consider this to be a topic worth discussing? - What other issues do people have? - Are there any guidelines already in place? - How to proceed, e.g., do we need a draft, do we want an informal discussi= on at IETF#79 (e.g., during chairs' lunch)? I will stress that this is not intended as criticism of the tracker. The ai= m is just to develop guidelines on use of the tracker, although as a side-e= ffect we might come up with some ideas for future enhancement of the tracke= r. John= From bclaise@cisco.com Wed Sep 29 00:14:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA323A6B23 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 00:14:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3B5SwOM+Pcw4 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 00:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from av-tac-bru.cisco.com (weird-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D777B3A69F9 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 00:14:00 -0700 (PDT) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o8T6qmj4008990; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.55.43.51] (ams-bclaise-8712.cisco.com [10.55.43.51]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o8T6qmYC005555; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4CA2E23F.2040700@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:52:47 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100915 Thunderbird/3.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WG Chairs Subject: Latest "working group chair" tutorial Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , Bruce Nordman X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 07:14:02 -0000 Dear all, Could someone please point me to the latest WG chair tutorial. I went through the proceedings till IETF74, but could not find any. Unless all the information is here nowadays: http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/wgchairs/wiki/WikiStart http://www.ietf.org/wg/chair-info.html Regards, Benoit. From pk@ISOC.DE Wed Sep 29 03:34:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57E53A6C71 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 03:34:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.740, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0gBciW6qRzG1 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 03:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.denic.de (gw-office.denic.de [81.91.160.182]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6803A6C5E for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 03:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown.office.denic.de ([10.122.66.129]) by office.denic.de with esmtp id 1P0u0c-00035w-NS; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:35:34 +0200 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9A8E46CEB39; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:35:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:35:33 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF WG Chairs Subject: Re: CC on mailing lists Message-ID: <20100929103533.GB32040@unknown.office.denic.de> Mail-Followup-To: IETF WG Chairs References: <50136FA5-D155-439B-B269-AB3980CC2291@nostrum.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:34:53 -0000 On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 01:24:08PM -0400, Barry Leiba wrote: > > copy from the mailing list. Select Yes to avoid receiving copies from the > > mailing list; select No to receive copies. ( ) No. (X) Yes. [ ] Set Globally" > > I don't think that's the answer. I *think* (though I'm not certain) > that Mailman handles this not by stripping CCs (which wouldn't help, > because you have already sent the CCs directly to those people), but > by *not* sending the mailing-list entry to them, because it assumes > that they've already gotten their copies through the CC entries. You're right on the suppression part, but it does both IIRC to prevent future occurences of the same issue -- and growing CC lines. I'm not really happy that this feature is on by default on IETF lists (so, yes, I do switch it off "globally" every now and then). It is likely to cause/support mail loss and makes List-ID or envelope from based filtering harder. -Peter From ietfdbh@comcast.net Wed Sep 29 06:52:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D233A6BC0 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 06:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.297, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 64GNqbzXBcT6 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 06:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qmta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953203A6AEA for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 06:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omta18.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.90]) by qmta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id CbV31f0061wpRvQ5AdtJus; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:53:18 +0000 Received: from 23FX1C1 ([67.189.235.106]) by omta18.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id CdtH1f0072JQnJT3edtHnJ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:53:18 +0000 From: "David Harrington" To: "'Elwell, John'" , "'IETF WG Chairs'" References: Subject: RE: Tracker etiquette Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:52:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 Thread-index: ActfobAgP2GLqUeHR6GaV5TY7AAz0gAOon+Q In-Reply-To: Cc: 'Henrik Levkowetz' X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:52:35 -0000 Hi, I haven't used the issue tracker recently. I tried a few years ago, and found, as you did, "It seems to me the tracker is good for recording an issue and its subsequent changes of state. It is not so good for discussing an issue. Even when an issue is closed, say, there needs to be something on the mailing list that says what the issue is that has been closed, not just its tracker number." I find that using a web page or wiki is easier for tracking issues through the process. A web page can list the issues, and anybody can read the issues list to see what's happening. My favorite web page listed each issue with a graphic (stop light) that indicated open, closing, and closed. "closing means the chairs have started a consensus call" This was easy for everybody to understand quickly, especially which issues were no longer open to discussion. The issues list can provide a link to the message thread that identified the issue. (sometimes an issue splits or combines, and the chairs then need to create separate threads.) I found coordinating between the official mailing list discussions and any issues tracker discussions more work than it was worth. I did find that I could track chair issues fairly easily, but hopefully the new datatracker will make that way easier to handle in a consistent manner. David Harrington Director, IETF Transport Area ietfdbh@comcast.net (preferred for ietf) dbharrington@huaweisymantec.com +1 603 828 1401 (cell) > -----Original Message----- > From: iesg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:iesg-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Elwell, John > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:44 AM > To: 'IETF WG Chairs' > Cc: Henrik Levkowetz > Subject: Tracker etiquette > > In the group I co-chair, SIPREC, we have been using the issue > tracker. I am aware of its use in several other RAI WGs > (SIPCORE, GEOPRIV, MARTINI), and doubtless a lot more groups > use it. There has been a thread on SIPCORE recently on > tracker etiquette - the way it is used, particularly in > conjunction with the mailing lists. During a SIPREC interim > yesterday, we received complaints about practices, and > clearly come guidelines are needed. Rather than each WG > developing its own guidelines, it might make sense to have > some common guidelines (although each WG might want to tailor > these to its own needs). This WG chairs list seemed like a > good place to kick off the discussion. > > The sort of issues that are coming up are: > - When to use the mailing list, versus when to add a comment > to the tracker. > - Lack of information in the subject field of > tracker-generated mailing list messages to indicate the work > item to which the issue relates. > - Lack of the original issue text or previous comments in a > tracker-generated mailing list message. > - Difficulty interleaving comment text within the original > issue text or previous comment text. > > Some of these are motivated by the need for somebody reading > emails off-line (e.g., on a plane) to know what an email is > talking about. > > Another issue is long term archives - mailing lists are > archived long-term, but I am not sure we have quite the same > guarantees with the tracker. > > Another issue I personally experience is slowness of response > when using the tracker (I don't know to what extend this > affects others), which makes it inconvenient to use the > tracker as a substitute for information that could have been > provided in the mailing list message and discourages me from > using it for simply adding a comment, say. (This isn't the > prime focus of this thread, but for me, average response time > for navigating from one issue to the next, back to query, and > so on, is about 12-13s, compared with about 2-3s for > datatracker queries.) > > It seems to me the tracker is good for recording an issue and > its subsequent changes of state. It is not so good for > discussing an issue. Even when an issue is closed, say, there > needs to be something on the mailing list that says what the > issue is that has been closed, not just its tracker number. > > So questions for the list: > - Do people consider this to be a topic worth discussing? > - What other issues do people have? > - Are there any guidelines already in place? > - How to proceed, e.g., do we need a draft, do we want an > informal discussion at IETF#79 (e.g., during chairs' lunch)? > > I will stress that this is not intended as criticism of the > tracker. The aim is just to develop guidelines on use of the > tracker, although as a side-effect we might come up with some > ideas for future enhancement of the tracker. > > John= > From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Wed Sep 29 08:13:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72963A6B36 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:13:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.699, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H1O6ErjyR-Fb for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5F43A6CEB for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.163] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8TFDcZA059629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:13:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:13:37 -0700 To: "Elwell, John" , "'IETF WG Chairs'" From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Tracker etiquette Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: Henrik Levkowetz X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:13:10 -0000 At 8:43 AM +0200 9/29/10, Elwell, John wrote: >. . . >The sort of issues that are coming up are: >- When to use the mailing list, versus when to add a comment to the tracker. >- Lack of information in the subject field of tracker-generated mailing list messages to indicate the work item to which the issue relates. >- Lack of the original issue text or previous comments in a tracker-generated mailing list message. >- Difficulty interleaving comment text within the original issue text or previous comment text. > >. . . > >So questions for the list: >- Do people consider this to be a topic worth discussing? The first bullet is *definitely* worth discussing. The IETF today relies on WG issues being discussed on the mailing list, while other organizations rely on them being discussed in the tracker. This needs to be made clear for people who come from organizations that use the latter style. The second bullet is also useful and should be easy to fix once we agree on what it is we want. I'm not so concerned about the third and fourth bullets if we agree on the first. >- What other issues do people have? Trying to get WG members to look at the tracker items. IPsecME is tracker-based for our issues, and I don't think Yaron and I got the kind of review we were hoping for on our last few documents. I still think that using the tracker to name and segregate issues is a greater positive than the negative of a bit less interaction from the list, but I would like to hear ideas about how to get more of the "second tier" WG participants to respond to tracker issues. >- Are there any guidelines already in place? >- How to proceed, e.g., do we need a draft, do we want an informal discussion at IETF#79 (e.g., during chairs' lunch)? --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From touch@isi.edu Wed Sep 29 08:32:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40ADA3A6DD9 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:31:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.526 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.526 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.073, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kI17ypcf0zyM for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC5A3A6DCE for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [75.217.117.13] (13.sub-75-217-117.myvzw.com [75.217.117.13]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o8TFVjWX025041 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4CA35BE0.6010908@isi.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:31:44 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100915 Thunderbird/3.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Elwell, John" Subject: Re: Tracker etiquette References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner-ID: o8TFVjWX025041 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: 'IETF WG Chairs' , Henrik Levkowetz X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:32:11 -0000 Hi, John, On 9/28/2010 11:43 PM, Elwell, John wrote: > In the group I co-chair, SIPREC, we have been using the issue tracker. I am aware of its use in several other RAI WGs (SIPCORE, GEOPRIV, MARTINI), and doubtless a lot more groups use it. There has been a thread on SIPCORE recently on tracker etiquette - the way it is used, particularly in conjunction with the mailing lists. During a SIPREC interim yesterday, we received complaints about practices, and clearly come guidelines are needed. Rather than each WG developing its own guidelines, it might make sense to have some common guidelines (although each WG might want to tailor these to its own needs). This WG chairs list seemed like a good place to kick off the discussion. > > The sort of issues that are coming up are: > - When to use the mailing list, versus when to add a comment to the tracker. > - Lack of information in the subject field of tracker-generated mailing list messages to indicate the work item to which the issue relates. > - Lack of the original issue text or previous comments in a tracker-generated mailing list message. > - Difficulty interleaving comment text within the original issue text or previous comment text. For discussions, IMO the mailing list is the appropriate place. IMO, the tracker is a good place only if a draft has a large number of pending issues, and only to keep track of which ones are still open vs. have been addressed. For the mailing list, I've led discussions (on mine and other drafts) with multiple issues by NOT posting a list of the issues in a single mail. If you want per-topic threads, you need to start with the call for discussion posts, i.e., by posting a separate message on each issue to the list, i.e.: (docname) ISSUE #4: (topic) The tracker could be helpful in supporting this, e.g., if it: a) sent initial messages to the list with something like the above format whenever new messages b) was able to post followups in a way that looks like a reply thread The key problem, AFAICT, is that even if the tracker *outputs* messages like this, the info flow is unidirectional. The list sees what goes into the tracker. Looking at the tracker, however, won't give a full view of the exchanges on an issue unless there's a way to subscribe the tracker to the mailing list and have it scan for replies and enter them accordingly. I'm not sure whether that's worth the effort. AFAICT, the tracker may be a good place to check the status of changes, but I would trust the mailing list as the primary source for discussions about those changes. Joe From ietfdbh@comcast.net Wed Sep 29 09:53:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935F93A6D97 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:53:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.303 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.303 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.296, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id buycpAmwC9VU for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qmta09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.96]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7197A3A6B4C for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.44]) by qmta09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id CbaQ1f0050xGWP859gttbC; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:53:53 +0000 Received: from 23FX1C1 ([67.189.235.106]) by omta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Cgtr1f00J2JQnJT3YgtsoA; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:53:53 +0000 From: "David Harrington" To: "'Paul Hoffman'" , "'Elwell, John'" , "'IETF WG Chairs'" References: Subject: RE: Tracker etiquette Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:53:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 Thread-index: Actf6PbtmIPPCyZ2TcmWXqYxpH4uAgADa83w In-Reply-To: Cc: 'Henrik Levkowetz' X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:53:09 -0000 There was a discussio of issue tracking at an iesg lunch 2-3 meetings ago, IIRC. If you're lucky, some of that got captured in the proceedings. dbh > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:14 AM > To: Elwell, John; 'IETF WG Chairs' > Cc: Henrik Levkowetz > Subject: Re: Tracker etiquette > > At 8:43 AM +0200 9/29/10, Elwell, John wrote: > >. . . > >The sort of issues that are coming up are: > >- When to use the mailing list, versus when to add a comment > to the tracker. > >- Lack of information in the subject field of > tracker-generated mailing list messages to indicate the work > item to which the issue relates. > >- Lack of the original issue text or previous comments in a > tracker-generated mailing list message. > >- Difficulty interleaving comment text within the original > issue text or previous comment text. > > > >. . . > > > >So questions for the list: > >- Do people consider this to be a topic worth discussing? > > The first bullet is *definitely* worth discussing. The IETF > today relies on WG issues being discussed on the mailing > list, while other organizations rely on them being discussed > in the tracker. This needs to be made clear for people who > come from organizations that use the latter style. > > The second bullet is also useful and should be easy to fix > once we agree on what it is we want. I'm not so concerned > about the third and fourth bullets if we agree on the first. > > >- What other issues do people have? > > Trying to get WG members to look at the tracker items. > IPsecME is tracker-based for our issues, and I don't think > Yaron and I got the kind of review we were hoping for on our > last few documents. I still think that using the tracker to > name and segregate issues is a greater positive than the > negative of a bit less interaction from the list, but I would > like to hear ideas about how to get more of the "second tier" > WG participants to respond to tracker issues. > > >- Are there any guidelines already in place? > >- How to proceed, e.g., do we need a draft, do we want an > informal discussion at IETF#79 (e.g., during chairs' lunch)? > > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --VPN Consortium From wlo@amsl.com Thu Sep 30 07:33:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB95D3A6D77 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:33:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.050, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qdB3Ny9uUQ+2 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [64.170.98.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8733A6918 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7CCE08C9; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:34:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c1a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c1a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bO8hjoW2s4tX; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AMSD531C (unknown [64.170.98.171]) by c1a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1A1BE08AC; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:34:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Wanda Lo" To: "'Benoit Claise'" , "'WG Chairs'" References: <4CA2E23F.2040700@cisco.com> Subject: RE: Latest "working group chair" tutorial Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:34:05 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Actfpf9wcIiQwvkFSqKc5wzw1GY8XwBBly0Q In-Reply-To: <4CA2E23F.2040700@cisco.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 Cc: "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , 'Bruce Nordman' X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:33:30 -0000 Hi Benoit, You can find the WG chair's training from IETF 78 (Maastricht) here, http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/edu/attachment/wiki/IETF78/. If you have any questions, please let me know. Thanks, Wanda -----Original Message----- From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:53 PM To: WG Chairs Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Bruce Nordman Subject: Latest "working group chair" tutorial Dear all, Could someone please point me to the latest WG chair tutorial. I went through the proceedings till IETF74, but could not find any. Unless all the information is here nowadays: http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/wgchairs/wiki/WikiStart http://www.ietf.org/wg/chair-info.html Regards, Benoit. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3165 - Release Date: 09/28/10 10:41:00 From dworley@avaya.com Thu Sep 30 12:18:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AABE3A6E3B for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:18:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.471 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.471 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.128, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmCqU9f-gtAs for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com (de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.71.100]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054583A6E0A for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:18:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,261,1283745600"; d="scan'208";a="209954750" Received: from unknown (HELO co300216-co-erhwest.avaya.com) ([198.152.7.5]) by de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 30 Sep 2010 15:18:58 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,261,1283745600"; d="scan'208";a="521802339" Received: from dc-us1hcex1.us1.avaya.com (HELO DC-US1HCEX1.global.avaya.com) ([135.11.52.20]) by co300216-co-erhwest-out.avaya.com with ESMTP; 30 Sep 2010 15:18:57 -0400 Received: from DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com ([169.254.2.129]) by DC-US1HCEX1.global.avaya.com ([2002:870b:3414::870b:3414]) with mapi; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:18:57 -0400 From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" To: "Elwell, John" , 'IETF WG Chairs' Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:18:57 -0400 Subject: RE: Tracker etiquette Thread-Topic: Tracker etiquette Thread-Index: ActfobAgP2GLqUeHR6GaV5TY7AAz0gBMcno3 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Henrik Levkowetz X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:18:14 -0000 If the tracker is to be of any use at all, it must be archival -- the issue= s and comments need to be preserved *at least as well* as any associated ma= iling list's messages. I assume that the IETF is doing this *already*. If not, then they shouldn'= t be operating a tracker. The fundamental value of a tracker is maintaining a database of open issues= so that it is easy to ensure that all issues get taken care of. It is ver= y easy for a mailing list discussion to "fall off the radar". In regard to the messages from the tracker to a mailing list being insuffic= iently informative to be useful, it seems to me that this is a problem of t= he specific tracker, and not a problem with trackers per se. Dale From john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com Thu Sep 30 23:33:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C0583A6C21 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:33:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.63 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.63 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4ADsp8wG1W4 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms03.m0019.fra.mmp.de.bt.com (m0019.fra.mmp.de.bt.com [62.180.227.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B719B3A68A0 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from senmx11-mx ([62.134.46.9] [62.134.46.9]) by ms03.m0020.fra.mmp.de.bt.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1701371; Fri, 1 Oct 2010 08:33:28 +0200 Received: from MCHP064A.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.37.63]) by senmx11-mx (Server) with ESMTP id A6A071EB82AB; Fri, 1 Oct 2010 08:33:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from MCHP058A.global-ad.net ([172.29.37.55]) by MCHP064A.global-ad.net ([172.29.37.63]) with mapi; Fri, 1 Oct 2010 08:33:29 +0200 From: "Elwell, John" To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" , 'IETF WG Chairs' Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 08:33:27 +0200 Subject: RE: Tracker etiquette Thread-Topic: Tracker etiquette Thread-Index: ActfobAgP2GLqUeHR6GaV5TY7AAz0gBMcno3ABdWNBA= Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Henrik Levkowetz X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 06:33:14 -0000 Dale, Whether or not the tracker as such is archived (I assume is isn't), each tr= acker change (status change, comment) results in a message being sent to th= e WG mailing list, so I guess it is archived in that sense. The main diffic= ulty is correlating everything. For example, one benefit of the tracker is that it keeps record of issues r= aised perhaps several months ago that have remained dormant, so when such a= n issue is eventually addressed, a mail with #87 in its subject line will c= orrelate only with a mail from several months back that similarly has #87 i= n the subject line. Without the previous thread being embedded in the new m= ail, the reader is left to search back through the mailing list archives to= find the older mails (and most likely that requires the person to be on-li= ne, unless old mails have been cached locally). John > -----Original Message----- > From: Worley, Dale R (Dale) [mailto:dworley@avaya.com]=20 > Sent: 30 September 2010 20:19 > To: Elwell, John; 'IETF WG Chairs' > Cc: Henrik Levkowetz > Subject: RE: Tracker etiquette >=20 > If the tracker is to be of any use at all, it must be=20 > archival -- the issues and comments need to be preserved *at=20 > least as well* as any associated mailing list's messages. >=20 > I assume that the IETF is doing this *already*. If not, then=20 > they shouldn't be operating a tracker. >=20 > The fundamental value of a tracker is maintaining a database=20 > of open issues so that it is easy to ensure that all issues=20 > get taken care of. It is very easy for a mailing list=20 > discussion to "fall off the radar". >=20 > In regard to the messages from the tracker to a mailing list=20 > being insufficiently informative to be useful, it seems to me=20 > that this is a problem of the specific tracker, and not a=20 > problem with trackers per se. >=20 > Dale > =