Netnews Architecture and Protocols

corresponds to the > construct in [I-D.ietf-usefor-usefor], it's a "Message-ID" without > angle brackets. Characters not directly allowed in this part of an > [RFC3986] URI have to be percent-encoded, minimally anything that is > not , no ":" (colon), and doesn't belong to the > . That parapgraph is then no lnger needed, though you might want to say something like A is simply a without the angle brackets. It may contain a few characters that need to be percent-encoded, notably "[" and "]" if a is present. However, it is never necessary to percent-encode the "@" within a , since it constitutes a from the viewpoint of [RFC3986] and "@" is a permitted character within a . Actually, I believe "[" and "]" would also be safe unencoded, since they only have a special meaning within an , and any will already have been parsed by the time we get here. All other things that might need to be percent-encoded are in improbable contexts, such as s (if they survive) and in s of a form now deprecated by 2822bis. > Several details of a canonical are omitted here, e.g. > leading, adjacent, or trailing dots are not allowed in > . The syntax mainly shows which characters MUST be > percent-encoded in a (local part) or (domain > part). Obviously, that paragraph can be omitted if the detailed syntax is omitted. > Please note that "%20" (space) and "%3E" (">") are not allowed. A > "%5C" (backslash "\") can only occur in four combinations as shown > above. Examples: Again, that would be the three (not four) combinations allowed in . > > news://server.example/ab.cd@example.com > news:%22do..ts%22@example.com Why do the DQUOTEs need to be percent-encoded? Actually, 3986 seems to omit all mention of them. > news:ab.cd@%5B2001:DB8::CD30%5D And I am not convinced that the $5B and %5D are necessary there. > The form identifying corresponds to the [RFC3977] > , a newsgroup name with wildcards "*" and "?". Any > "?" has to be be percent-encoded as "%3F" in this part of an URI. > Examples, the first two are equivalent: I disagree entirely with your use of here, when would do perfectly well. These two URIs are both intended to interface with NNTP. Hitherto, there has been much variation in the wildcarding allowed by various implementations (only a single "*" was allowed by RFC1738, but most now allow more than that). However, now that we have an agreed standard for NNTP, we have to assume that, as implementations come to be upgraded, they will be ugraded to conform to that new standard. Therefore, the proper course is to allow exactly what the new standard allows (since all that implementations will need to do is to give whatever is provided in the URL to the NNTP LIST ACTIVE command, and process whatever comes back). The last thing we need is arbitrary restrictions for which there is no technical justification. > Without wildcards this form of the URL identifies a single group if > it's not empty, and user agents would typically try to present an > overview of the articles available in this group, probably somehow ^^^^^^^^ possibly > limiting this overview to the newest unread articles up to a > configured maximum. > With wildcards user agents could try to list matching group names on > the specified or default server. Some user agents support only a > specific without wildcards, or an optional single "*". Add "This situation nay be expected to improve as agents are upgraded to comply with RFC3977." > 5. Acknowledgments This section is more verbose than is customary. It should be pruned to, just a list of names. > 6. Internationalization Considerations > The URI schemes were updated to support percent-encoded UTF-8 > characters in NNTP newsgroup names as specified in [RFC3977] and > [RFC3987]. Not quite. RFC3977 provided this capability if and when Usefor chooses to implement it (which may well happen once EAI is done). So it would be useful to point this out, and also to mention that the use of IRIs rather than URIs would then become appropriate to save having to percent-encode such UTF-8. > The work on E-mail Address Internationalization (EAI) started in > [RFC4952] most likely won't change the syntax of a "Message-ID". The ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is not expected to > work on a successor of [RFC2822] might end up with a significantly > simplified syntax for at least the local part (right hand side) of a > "Message-ID". As mentioned before, it would be better not to offer this draft as a proposed standard until the matter of 2822bis is clarified, which should not be more than a few months. > 8. IANA Considerations > > The IANA registry of URI schemes could be updated to point to this ^^^^^ should > memo instead of [RFC1738] for the 'news' and 'nntp' URI schemes. > 8.1. 'snews' URIs > > This section contains the [RFC4395] template for the registration of > the historical 'snews' scheme specified in [I-D.gilman-news-url]. I think we need to decide whether to mention this one at all, even as "historical", since it never formally got beyond an I.D. Was it ever implemented, and are implementations still around? If not, then I suggest it is best forgotten. > 8.2. nntp.uri.arpa NAPTR > > This section contains the [RFC3405] template for the registration of > the 'nntp' URI scheme with the Dynamic Delegation Discovery System. > > Key: nntp > Authority: RFCXXXX > Record: > nntp IN NAPTR 0 0 "" "" "!^nntp://([^/?#]*@)?([^:/?#]*).*$!\\2!i" . This is toally obscure unless you provide some motivation for it and a reference to wherever these things are defined. And are they actually used anywhere in the Real World? If not, then it is arguable whether they should be mentioned. > 8.3. 'news-message-ID' access type > > The MIME 'news-message-ID' access type was erroneously listed as > subtype. IANA should remove 'news-message-ID' from the application > subtype registry, and add it to the access type registry defined in > [RFC4289]: . For sure this needs to be removed from the wrong registry, but we need some discussion as to whether it needs to be replaced, or whether it is another candidate for forgetting. Did anybody ever use it, based on son-of-1036. At the most, it should probably be "historical". -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From zugriff.planet@aosd.net Fri Nov 09 11:45:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqWyj-0005Id-JI for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:45:09 -0500 Received: from [77.241.42.5] (helo=psedlt) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqWyi-0001IY-Vc for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:45:09 -0500 Received: (qmail 15661 invoked from network); Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:45:38 +0300 Received: from unknown (HELO hqnv) (112.160.106.208) by psedlt with SMTP; Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:45:38 +0300 Message-ID: <000601c822ef$f5014b50$d06aa070@hqnv> From: To: Subject: Make him dance Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:45:38 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Come watch the little skeleton dance. http://79.172.73.163/ From fcmail@indiatimes.com Fri Nov 09 18:46:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqdYk-0004NG-Ju for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 18:46:46 -0500 Received: from [201.240.117.45] (helo=client-201.240.117.45.speedy.net.pe) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqdYj-0002Fd-N1 for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 18:46:46 -0500 Received: from zjgo ([103.172.150.59]) by client-201.240.117.45.speedy.net.pe (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id lA9Hu89A061174; Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:56:08 +0100 Message-ID: <002301c822f9$1c71a4b0$3b96ac67@zjgo> From: To: Subject: The most amazing dancing skeleton Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:51:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Oh man this thing is cool. Try it. http://82.156.185.106/ From rinku143uk@cooperconst.com Sat Nov 10 03:12:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqlS1-0003Mi-I2 for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 03:12:21 -0500 Received: from [203.129.207.50] (helo=iqbuuw) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqlS0-0007XJ-HW for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 03:12:21 -0500 Received: from [163.90.140.32] (helo=nef) by iqbuuw with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1J@c@-0006mA-RS; Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:45:35 -0800 Message-ID: <4734D401.4050106@cooperconst.com> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:41:21 -0800 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Happy Halloween Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 I know you hate junk mail, but this is just plane old fun. http://151.71.181.218/ From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 10 14:56:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqwR6-0007P5-C4 for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:56:08 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqwR2-0003VT-RG for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:56:08 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAAJmVPf030442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:48:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAAJmVo3030441; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:48:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.20.25]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAAJmUSg030435 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:48:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C8004CD8B for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3554CD5D for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3F35AE834E; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: rra@stanford.edu Subject: Commit in docs/usefor (usepro.xml) User-Agent: svnlog/1.14 Message-Id: <20071110194830.3F35AE834E@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Date: Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 11:48:28 Author: eagle Revision: 3224 Make usepro-09. Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml =================================================================== --- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2007-11-10 01:20:34 UTC (rev 3223) +++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2007-11-10 19:48:28 UTC (rev 3224) @@ -26,7 +26,7 @@ 'http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.4288.xml'> ]> - Netnews Architecture and Protocols @@ -62,7 +62,7 @@ - + Applications Usenet Format Working Group From reico@schrack.si Sat Nov 10 17:16:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqydE-0005YQ-7k for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:16:48 -0500 Received: from [60.213.211.166] (helo=slka) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iqyd8-0001Eo-Oe for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:16:43 -0500 Received: from [190.92.230.236] (helo=cwjy) by slka with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1J@zPk-0001gU-MT; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 06:20:26 +0800 Message-ID: <47362DB4.6060205@schrack.si> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 06:16:20 +0800 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: To much fun Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Just a little Halloween fun. http://79.125.175.55/ From rberlin@stud.fim.ntnu.no Sun Nov 11 04:08:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir8o8-0006wT-I1 for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 04:08:44 -0500 Received: from [210.56.119.244] (helo=hjhgua) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir8o7-0002ZN-IZ for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 04:08:44 -0500 Received: from kxzs ([236.40.31.201]) by hjhgua with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:36:57 +0530 Message-ID: <47367FE1.5010605@stud.fim.ntnu.no> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:36:57 +0530 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: To much fun Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Someone sent this to me, it is so hilarious. http://68.200.251.172/ From eampaul@usc.edu Sun Nov 11 11:06:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrFKr-00059m-Iy for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:06:57 -0500 Received: from [86.60.63.20] (helo=ooqwt) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrFKo-0007uc-Sg for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:06:57 -0500 Received: from hrep ([136.137.163.75]) by ooqwt (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id lABG78FM071633; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:07:08 +0300 Message-ID: <000f01c8247c$dc55e320$4ba38988@hrep> From: To: Subject: To much fun Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:06:47 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Oh man this thing is cool. Try it. http://24.119.136.30/ From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 13 10:20:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrxYl-0001ZA-9h for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:20:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrxYi-0006I7-IV for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:20:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lADFF69E016662 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:15:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lADFF621016661; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:15:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.neustar.com (ns4.neustar.com [156.154.24.139]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lADFF3t2016642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:15:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F732AC79; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IrxTi-000215-EL; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:15:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt Message-Id: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:15:02 -0500 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Usenet Article Standard Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Netnews Architecture and Protocols Author(s) : R. Allbery, C. Lindsey Filename : draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt Pages : 49 Date : 2007-11-13 This document defines the architecture of Netnews systems and specifies the correct manipulation and interpretation of Netnews articles by software which originates, distributes, stores, and displays them. It also specifies the requirements that must be met by any protocol used to transport and serve Netnews articles. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-13095815.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-13095815.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 13 12:16:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrzMr-0006w6-0J for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:16:05 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrzMh-0004cI-3p for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:16:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lADHCA53029251 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:12:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lADHCAZo029250; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:12:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lADHC9Ot029235 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:12:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3#clerew*man^ac#uk) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 4739dae6.eaad.2c0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:12:06 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lADHC0ds016311 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:12:00 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lADHC0R7016308 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:12:00 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24749 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: [#1416] Who adds Ijection-Date When? Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <20071110194830.3F35AE834E@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:38:21 GMT Lines: 174 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 In <20071110194830.3F35AE834E@windlord.stanford.edu> rra@stanford.edu writes: > Date: Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 11:48:28 > Author: eagle >Revision: 3224 >Make usepro-09. >Modified: > docs/usefor/usepro.xml >Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml >=================================================================== >--- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2007-11-10 01:20:34 UTC (rev 3223) >+++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2007-11-10 19:48:28 UTC (rev 3224) OK, nice to see some action. It's been a quiet summer (I have found lots off other things to do) but we really need to get back to this. Issue 1416 is the major outstanding item. I posted a sunnary of where we were at in http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg04240.html, and Russ agreed that it was a fair summary. I repeat that text here: The main outstanding matter is Issue #1416, which I shall now try to summarize as I see it. Essentially, we have to choose between two options, which we have in the past named "IR" and "IC". The current text reflects IR. The differences relate to when an Injection-Date header MUST/MUST NOT/Whatever be added by Posting and Injection agents. Option IR --------- Adding Injection-Date by Posting agent, according to headers present in proto-article and intention wrt multiple injection: MUST MUSTNOT SHOULD MAY Multiple injection (also requires Msgid & Date) YES "Reinjection" (aka "gatewaying after the fact") YES Message-ID and stale Date present YES Message-ID _and_ Date present YES Message-ID or Date or both absent ??? [Where I believe "???" should be "YES", but text doesn't actually say so] Adding Injection-Date by Injecting agent, according to headers present in incoming proto-article: MUST MUSTNOT SHOULD MAY Injection-Date already present YES Message-ID _and_ Date present YES Message-ID or Date or both absent YES Option IC --------- Adding Injection-Date by Posting agent, according to headers present in proto-article and intention wrt multiple injection: MUST MUSTNOT SHOULD MAY Multiple injection (also requires Msgid & Date) YES "Reinjection" (aka "gatewaying after the fact") YES Message-ID and stale Date present YES All other cases (Message-ID or Date or neither) YES Adding Injection-Date by Injecting agent, according to headers present in incoming proto-article: MUST MUSTNOT SHOULD MAY Injection-Date already present YES All other cases (Message-ID or Date or neither) YES Discussion of IR ---------------- The essential difference is the rule that Injecting agents MUST NOT add Injection-Date if _both_ Message-ID and Date are already present, and MUST add it otherwise. This rule is counter-intuitive and confusing. A consequence of the rule is that it will forever remain the case that some articles will never acquire an Injection-Date (those where the Posting agent provides both of Message-ID and Date). Russ counters this by claiming that, in time, Posting agents will learn to add the Injection-Date themselves, but this is only a "MAY" as specified, and I remain unconvinced that implementors will take the hint. So if we decide to remain with Option IR, I would want to see a much stronger wording in place of that "MAY" (not necessarily a "SHOULD", but some indication that it was intended to become standard practice). Moreover, there is a danger that Posting agent implementors will do it wrongly, adding the Injection-Date _before_ they are sure they have a working connection to an Injecting agent. Yes, multiple injectors have to get this right, but people doing multiple injection can be expected to have a higher level of "clue". Discussion of IC ---------------- We distinguish between "OLD" agents which are unaware of our new standard, and "NEW" agents which implement it as written. The following scenario, which I understand to be the case Russ is worried about, illustrates the problem with IC. If anyone knows of a different, or a simpler, scenario that exhibits the same problem, then please speak up. Day 0 OLD Posting agent P composes an article (with Date: Day0) and some Message-ID. P is in the habit of multi-injecting. Day 1 P injects the message to (OLD or NEW) Injecting agent A (the ACopy). Day 2 P injects the message to NEW Injecting agent B (the BCopy); B adds Injection-Date: Day2. meanwhile: Day 1 The ACopy propagates rapidly and arrives at NEW Serving agent C, which stores it and puts it in its history file (which it normally retains for 7 days). Day 2 The BCopy arrives at Relaying agent D, which promptly breaks and goes offline for 7 days (or otherwise causes that propagation delay). Day 8 C removes the ACopy from its history file. Day 9 D wakes up, embarks on a massive catchup, and releases the BCopy. Day 9 The BCopy arrives at C, which observes that it is (just) within 7 days of its Injection-Date, and so accepts and stores it again. Which is, of course, a Bad Thing. C's users will say "Didn't I already see that article last week?" But it is no worse than that; in particular, I cannot see any way that looping could arise. Observe that this Bad Thing would not have happened if: . B had been an OLD agent . C had been an OLD agent . P had been a NEW agent . The delay at D had been 1 day less . The delay at D had been 1 day more So yes, the Bad Thing would not have happened on the current network, and it will not happen when the whole network is NEW - so it is a transitional problem whilst OLD and NEW agents are still around. Moreover, you might think the whole scenario is somewhat artificial (hence the invitation to propose more realistic scenarios). So the choice you people have to make is between this possible, but rare, Bad Thing, and the counter-intuitive properties of option IR. We have discussed this extensively, and I don't think there is much more to be said. I therefore request our Chair to conduct a Head Count on IR versus IC. I think we can assume that Russ will vote for IR and I will vote for IC, so it is the rest of you that will effectively decide it. For details of bits of the draft that wouild be affected if we decide to go with IC, please refer to http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg04240.html. There are several other issues outstanding, of which #1415 is the most important (but nowhere as controversial as #1416). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From bildung.bremen.de504@zublerone.com Thu Nov 15 08:09:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IseT6-0002GC-Mp for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:09:16 -0500 Received: from [58.149.173.243] (helo=bgrvxzi) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IseT5-0002RE-Oj for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:09:16 -0500 Received: from gih ([128.95.149.218]) by bgrvxzi with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:09:13 +0900 Message-ID: <473C44F9.2040102@zublerone.com> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:09:13 +0900 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: get on this Thursday Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Gold Resource Newsletter UP 20% following More Gold Findings! 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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 22 12:15:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvFdv-00061t-IE for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:15:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvFdp-0007id-Gd for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:15:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAMHC9JY030602 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:12:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAMHC9eD030601; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:12:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAMHC3n2030574 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3$clerew*man&ac$uk) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 4745b862.47d7.386 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:12:02 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lAMHC1KN004954 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:12:01 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lAMHC010004949 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:12:00 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24754 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> <2243307C195EEA9E4605B168@[10.1.50.11]> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:35:11 GMT Lines: 28 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 In <2243307C195EEA9E4605B168@[10.1.50.11]> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >what's also interesting (and might perhaps be relevant to this WG) is that >the headers of the message, as delivered to this mailer, contained not a >single trace indicating that the message had also been sent to the NNTP >list - the "to:" field contained only the USEFOR list, and there was no >"newsgroups" or similar field in the message..... Well there used to be newsgroups headers in the messages I posted to this list, but someone (IIRC it was you) found them confusing and asked me to take them out :-( . Yes, if I have written my gatewaying facility in a more comprehensive manner, I could have arranged for suitable Cc headers to appear, but it was never intended to function for more than just a one-to-one newsgroup to mailing list setup. > Harald -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 23 07:16:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvXSM-00048c-JG for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:16:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvXSJ-0006Fe-14 for usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:16:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lANCC7OG010512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 23 Nov 2007 05:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lANCC7BY010511; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 05:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lANCC4tD010505 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 05:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3#clerew&man&ac$uk) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 4746c393.17e1c.ad for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:12:03 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lANCC2tN002756 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lANCC2ob002751 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24756 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> <2243307C195EEA9E4605B168@[10.1.50.11]> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:54:35 GMT Lines: 19 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 In "Frank Ellermann" writes: >IIRC we decided that we can't define a "newsgroups" header >field for mail. I think we decided to make no normative mention of it, but to say in USEAGE how it should be used sensibly to indicate that a message was both posted and mailed, and not for anything else. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From elena@elefant-vitkov.cz Mon Nov 26 12:22:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwhfY-0000oK-5q for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:22:52 -0500 Received: from [201.201.165.66] (helo=iigqfo) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwhfR-00050I-LX for usefor-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:22:52 -0500 Received: from [114.98.223.190] (helo=phr) by iigqfo with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1J/id-0003XV-KE; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:25 -0600 Message-ID: <474B00E0.4000203@elefant-vitkov.cz> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:22:40 -0600 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (Windows/20070809) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Ho Ho Ho Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 EnerBrite Reduces Energy Costs By 30% 5 Things you should know this weekend: 1. 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Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lANCC7OG010512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 23 Nov 2007 05:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lANCC7BY010511; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 05:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lANCC4tD010505 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 05:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3#clerew&man&ac$uk) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 4746c393.17e1c.ad for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:12:03 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lANCC2tN002756 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lANCC2ob002751 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24756 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> <2243307C195EEA9E4605B168@[10.1.50.11]> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:54:35 GMT Lines: 19 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In "Frank Ellermann" writes: >IIRC we decided that we can't define a "newsgroups" header >field for mail. I think we decided to make no normative mention of it, but to say in USEAGE how it should be used sensibly to indicate that a message was both posted and mailed, and not for anything else. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAMHC9JY030602 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:12:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAMHC9eD030601; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:12:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAMHC3n2030574 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3$clerew*man&ac$uk) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 4745b862.47d7.386 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:12:02 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lAMHC1KN004954 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:12:01 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lAMHC010004949 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:12:00 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24754 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> <2243307C195EEA9E4605B168@[10.1.50.11]> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:35:11 GMT Lines: 28 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <2243307C195EEA9E4605B168@[10.1.50.11]> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >what's also interesting (and might perhaps be relevant to this WG) is that >the headers of the message, as delivered to this mailer, contained not a >single trace indicating that the message had also been sent to the NNTP >list - the "to:" field contained only the USEFOR list, and there was no >"newsgroups" or similar field in the message..... Well there used to be newsgroups headers in the messages I posted to this list, but someone (IIRC it was you) found them confusing and asked me to take them out :-( . Yes, if I have written my gatewaying facility in a more comprehensive manner, I could have arranged for suitable Cc headers to appear, but it was never intended to function for more than just a one-to-one newsgroup to mailing list setup. > Harald -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAM7Pfg7088482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:25:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAM7PfvJ088481; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:25:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAM7PcJR088474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:25:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iv6RA-0005in-90 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:25:24 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:25:24 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:25:24 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Newsgroups (was: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:21:55 +0100 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> <2243307C195EEA9E4605B168@[10.1.50.11]> Reply-To: "Frank Ellermann" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > the "to:" field contained only the USEFOR list, and there > was no "newsgroups" or similar field in the message..... Apparently GMaNe set To: =3D 1st group, and Cc: =3D 2nd group in Of course GMaNe "knows" that it deals with mailing lists, and Charles' local server might be not in a postion to know this. IIRC we decided that we can't define a "newsgroups" header field for mail. =20 Frank Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAL83xtM077003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:03:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAL83w6w077001; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:03:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAL83tBi076995 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:03:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372722596F7; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:03:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23902-08; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:03:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.119] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7B52596EF; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:03:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:01:18 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Charles Lindsey , ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D Message-ID: <2243307C195EEA9E4605B168@[10.1.50.11]> In-Reply-To: References: <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.7 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --On 20. november 2007 14:02 +0000 Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> this is not the ietf-nntp list referred to above. > > My apologies for that. They indeed went to the ietf-nntp list (you can > find them there on http://lists.eyrie.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-nntp). But > they were inadvertently posted to this list also. I still regard the > ietf-nntp as the proper forum for this discussion. > > As some of you know, I read these various lists by gatewaying them into > local newsgroups. So my replies looked like followups, and hence were > gatewayed into both lists. But worse, following newsgroups practice, > having seen them in my local.nntp group they were not visible in my > local.usefor :-( . what's also interesting (and might perhaps be relevant to this WG) is that the headers of the message, as delivered to this mailer, contained not a single trace indicating that the message had also been sent to the NNTP list - the "to:" field contained only the USEFOR list, and there was no "newsgroups" or similar field in the message..... Harald Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAKHNgp3010902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:23:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAKHNgeh010901; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:23:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sh-spam-4.gradwell.net (sh-spam-4.gradwell.net [193.84.87.110]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAKHNewA010887 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:23:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3$clerew#man^ac*uk) by sh-spam-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 47431565.2983.e3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:12:05 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lAKHC247008093 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lAKHC2Dx008090 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24752 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:02:12 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> Harald Alvestrand writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> In "Charles Lindsey" writes: >> >> >>>> Russ agreed somewhile back that this document could be discussed on the >>>> nntp mailing list (ietf-nntp@lists.eyrie.org) which, now that RFC3977 is >>>> agreed, is still maintained to watch over future nntp developments such as >>>> this. This message is therefore copied to that list, and I shall comment on >>>> the draft there. >>>> >this is not the ietf-nntp list referred to above. My apologies for that. They indeed went to the ietf-nntp list (you can find them there on http://lists.eyrie.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-nntp). But they were inadvertently posted to this list also. I still regard the ietf-nntp as the proper forum for this discussion. As some of you know, I read these various lists by gatewaying them into local newsgroups. So my replies looked like followups, and hence were gatewayed into both lists. But worse, following newsgroups practice, having seen them in my local.nntp group they were not visible in my local.usefor :-( . OK, I shall take care it doesn't happen again. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAJ8SxTM050078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:28:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAJ8SxHY050077; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:28:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAJ8SwhJ050069 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:28:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF39259717; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:28:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03583-05; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:28:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126192596DA; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:28:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4741493E.6010705@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:28:46 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Charles Lindsey wrote: > In "Charles Lindsey" writes: > > >>> Russ agreed somewhile back that this document could be discussed on the >>> nntp mailing list (ietf-nntp@lists.eyrie.org) which, now that RFC3977 is >>> agreed, is still maintained to watch over future nntp developments such as >>> this. This message is therefore copied to that list, and I shall comment on >>> the draft there. >>> > > >> OK, so my comments follow. They are mostly wording niggles, but there are >> some serious issues also. >> > > >>> The 'news' and 'nntp' URI Schemes >>> draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-06 >>> > > Frank has now published draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-08 in response to my > comments (pity he did not come on here first to discuss them). Charles, this is not the ietf-nntp list referred to above. Harald Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAH5EikC057683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:14:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAH5EiWr057682; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:14:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAH5Egns057676 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:14:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3&clerew#man^ac$uk) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 473e78c1.1f84.65 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 05:14:41 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lAH5EfHZ011607 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 05:14:41 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lAH5EetU011604 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 05:14:40 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.nntp:5065 local.usefor:24750 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:59:48 GMT Lines: 134 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In "Charles Lindsey" writes: >>Russ agreed somewhile back that this document could be discussed on the >>nntp mailing list (ietf-nntp@lists.eyrie.org) which, now that RFC3977 is >>agreed, is still maintained to watch over future nntp developments such as >>this. This message is therefore copied to that list, and I shall comment on >>the draft there. >OK, so my comments follow. They are mostly wording niggles, but there are >some serious issues also. >> The 'news' and 'nntp' URI Schemes >> draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-06 Frank has now published draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-08 in response to my comments (pity he did not come on here first to discuss them). Largely, he has accepted all my cosmetic suggestions, but totally ignored my technical ones. Here follows his latest "Document History" section, and I shall comment on that. Appendix C. Document History Changes in version 08: o Many editorial and stylistic improvements proposed by Charles Lindsey adopted wholesale. Fine! o Adopted Charles' proposal to simplify the acknowledgements. It is possibly not generally interesting who helped to figure out , but suggestions to overrule STD 66 [RFC3986] in this memo are futile. One or two contributors are unfortunately buried in an mbox on a SCSI-2 disk I can't read at the moment. You know who you are, please send me a mail. Fine! o Added another URI security consideration. .. Fine! ...... Added another note why this memo does not try to cover more NNTP features. Refrained from adding expectations what future NNTP servers will do. The author hopes that Netnews will survive, and that this memo helps. Adding features known to not work everywhere would be counterproductive. But not that one. You have added: ... This memo intentionally limits its description of the 'news' URI scheme to essential features supposed to work with "any browser" and NTTP server. But that is blatantly untrue. What you propose will not work with "any browser" (specifically ones that conforms rigorously to RFC 1738, though most nowadays go beyond that), nor with an NNTP server that conforms rigorously to RFC 977. Indeed you contradict yourself later on where you admit: ... User agents and NNTP servers not yet compliant with [RFC3977] do not implement all parts of this new feature. The point at issue is the extent of wildcarding to be allowed. You propose to allow anything in a [RFC 3977]. I want to see the full . Present implementations of the news: URI support varying degrees of wildcarding, from the minimal single "*" of RFC 1738 through all sorts of ad hoc notations allowing "*" in more or less liberal contexts. I doubt if any of the support even fully (and for sure most of them don't). But surely implementations will steadily move towards full [RFC 3977] support (and if they don't, then the NNTP WG will have been wasting its time). So why not permit the full ? For surely all that future user agents need to do is to take the from the URI and offer it to the LIST ACTIVE command of the NNTP server; if it works, it works, but if not then you have a pre-3977 server, and that might not even understand all s. But in the long term it will all come right. I would like to see some proper discussion of this matter, and this list is the place to discuss it because this list is where the proper NNTP expertise is to be found. o Rejected a proposal to "undocument" 'snews'. In 2006 folks on the URI lists preferred "document and deprecate". At this time 'snews' was supported by at least two servers and two user agents. Point taken! o Created another IANA ticket #124141 and rejected a proposal to ignore BCP 65 [RFC3405]. Registering 'nntp' in the style of the existing 'ftp', 'http', and 'mailto' DDDS records is a mere clerical task. I never asked for BCP 65 [RFC3405] to be ignored. But RFC3405 is one of the more obscure RFCs (I doubt if it is widely inmplemented or used), and so I wanted to see some additional explanatory text at that point so that the casual reader of your document could tell what you were talking about and why that IANA registration was a sensible thing to do without having to make an unnecessary trip to 3405. o Rejected a proposal to derive from the syntax in the normative reference [I-D.ietf-usefor-usefor] reflecting a consensus of the IETF USEFOR WG formed after months of discussions. Eh? The USEFOR WG spent months refining that text, but it never ever discussed its usage in URIs. All I want is for you to refer normatively to the syntax of in the USEFOR draft (or alternatively to incorporate that syntax in toto) instead of inventing yet-another syntax (similar nut not identical) to describe the same thing. As to whether that syntax in USEFOR gets altered in the light of recent developments in RFC 2282bis is a matter for the USEFOR WG to address (and I intend to raise it there). But if your document simply refers normatively to what is in USEFOR, then you are covered either way. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lADHCA53029251 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:12:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lADHCAZo029250; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:12:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lADHC9Ot029235 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:12:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3#clerew*man^ac#uk) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 4739dae6.eaad.2c0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:12:06 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lADHC0ds016311 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:12:00 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lADHC0R7016308 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:12:00 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24749 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: [#1416] Who adds Ijection-Date When? Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <20071110194830.3F35AE834E@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:38:21 GMT Lines: 174 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <20071110194830.3F35AE834E@windlord.stanford.edu> rra@stanford.edu writes: > Date: Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 11:48:28 > Author: eagle >Revision: 3224 >Make usepro-09. >Modified: > docs/usefor/usepro.xml >Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml >=================================================================== >--- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2007-11-10 01:20:34 UTC (rev 3223) >+++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2007-11-10 19:48:28 UTC (rev 3224) OK, nice to see some action. It's been a quiet summer (I have found lots off other things to do) but we really need to get back to this. Issue 1416 is the major outstanding item. I posted a sunnary of where we were at in http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg04240.html, and Russ agreed that it was a fair summary. I repeat that text here: The main outstanding matter is Issue #1416, which I shall now try to summarize as I see it. Essentially, we have to choose between two options, which we have in the past named "IR" and "IC". The current text reflects IR. The differences relate to when an Injection-Date header MUST/MUST NOT/Whatever be added by Posting and Injection agents. Option IR --------- Adding Injection-Date by Posting agent, according to headers present in proto-article and intention wrt multiple injection: MUST MUSTNOT SHOULD MAY Multiple injection (also requires Msgid & Date) YES "Reinjection" (aka "gatewaying after the fact") YES Message-ID and stale Date present YES Message-ID _and_ Date present YES Message-ID or Date or both absent ??? [Where I believe "???" should be "YES", but text doesn't actually say so] Adding Injection-Date by Injecting agent, according to headers present in incoming proto-article: MUST MUSTNOT SHOULD MAY Injection-Date already present YES Message-ID _and_ Date present YES Message-ID or Date or both absent YES Option IC --------- Adding Injection-Date by Posting agent, according to headers present in proto-article and intention wrt multiple injection: MUST MUSTNOT SHOULD MAY Multiple injection (also requires Msgid & Date) YES "Reinjection" (aka "gatewaying after the fact") YES Message-ID and stale Date present YES All other cases (Message-ID or Date or neither) YES Adding Injection-Date by Injecting agent, according to headers present in incoming proto-article: MUST MUSTNOT SHOULD MAY Injection-Date already present YES All other cases (Message-ID or Date or neither) YES Discussion of IR ---------------- The essential difference is the rule that Injecting agents MUST NOT add Injection-Date if _both_ Message-ID and Date are already present, and MUST add it otherwise. This rule is counter-intuitive and confusing. A consequence of the rule is that it will forever remain the case that some articles will never acquire an Injection-Date (those where the Posting agent provides both of Message-ID and Date). Russ counters this by claiming that, in time, Posting agents will learn to add the Injection-Date themselves, but this is only a "MAY" as specified, and I remain unconvinced that implementors will take the hint. So if we decide to remain with Option IR, I would want to see a much stronger wording in place of that "MAY" (not necessarily a "SHOULD", but some indication that it was intended to become standard practice). Moreover, there is a danger that Posting agent implementors will do it wrongly, adding the Injection-Date _before_ they are sure they have a working connection to an Injecting agent. Yes, multiple injectors have to get this right, but people doing multiple injection can be expected to have a higher level of "clue". Discussion of IC ---------------- We distinguish between "OLD" agents which are unaware of our new standard, and "NEW" agents which implement it as written. The following scenario, which I understand to be the case Russ is worried about, illustrates the problem with IC. If anyone knows of a different, or a simpler, scenario that exhibits the same problem, then please speak up. Day 0 OLD Posting agent P composes an article (with Date: Day0) and some Message-ID. P is in the habit of multi-injecting. Day 1 P injects the message to (OLD or NEW) Injecting agent A (the ACopy). Day 2 P injects the message to NEW Injecting agent B (the BCopy); B adds Injection-Date: Day2. meanwhile: Day 1 The ACopy propagates rapidly and arrives at NEW Serving agent C, which stores it and puts it in its history file (which it normally retains for 7 days). Day 2 The BCopy arrives at Relaying agent D, which promptly breaks and goes offline for 7 days (or otherwise causes that propagation delay). Day 8 C removes the ACopy from its history file. Day 9 D wakes up, embarks on a massive catchup, and releases the BCopy. Day 9 The BCopy arrives at C, which observes that it is (just) within 7 days of its Injection-Date, and so accepts and stores it again. Which is, of course, a Bad Thing. C's users will say "Didn't I already see that article last week?" But it is no worse than that; in particular, I cannot see any way that looping could arise. Observe that this Bad Thing would not have happened if: . B had been an OLD agent . C had been an OLD agent . P had been a NEW agent . The delay at D had been 1 day less . The delay at D had been 1 day more So yes, the Bad Thing would not have happened on the current network, and it will not happen when the whole network is NEW - so it is a transitional problem whilst OLD and NEW agents are still around. Moreover, you might think the whole scenario is somewhat artificial (hence the invitation to propose more realistic scenarios). So the choice you people have to make is between this possible, but rare, Bad Thing, and the counter-intuitive properties of option IR. We have discussed this extensively, and I don't think there is much more to be said. I therefore request our Chair to conduct a Head Count on IR versus IC. I think we can assume that Russ will vote for IR and I will vote for IC, so it is the rest of you that will effectively decide it. For details of bits of the draft that wouild be affected if we decide to go with IC, please refer to http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg04240.html. There are several other issues outstanding, of which #1415 is the most important (but nowhere as controversial as #1416). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lADFF69E016662 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:15:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lADFF621016661; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:15:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.neustar.com (ns4.neustar.com [156.154.24.139]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lADFF3t2016642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:15:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F732AC79; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IrxTi-000215-EL; Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:15:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt Message-Id: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:15:02 -0500 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Usenet Article Standard Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Netnews Architecture and Protocols Author(s) : R. Allbery, C. Lindsey Filename : draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt Pages : 49 Date : 2007-11-13 This document defines the architecture of Netnews systems and specifies the correct manipulation and interpretation of Netnews articles by software which originates, distributes, stores, and displays them. It also specifies the requirements that must be met by any protocol used to transport and serve Netnews articles. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-13095815.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-09.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-13095815.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAAJmVPf030442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:48:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lAAJmVo3030441; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:48:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.20.25]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lAAJmUSg030435 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:48:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C8004CD8B for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3554CD5D for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3F35AE834E; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: rra@stanford.edu Subject: Commit in docs/usefor (usepro.xml) User-Agent: svnlog/1.14 Message-Id: <20071110194830.3F35AE834E@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Date: Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 11:48:28 Author: eagle Revision: 3224 Make usepro-09. Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml =================================================================== --- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2007-11-10 01:20:34 UTC (rev 3223) +++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2007-11-10 19:48:28 UTC (rev 3224) @@ -26,7 +26,7 @@ 'http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.4288.xml'> ]> - Netnews Architecture and Protocols @@ -62,7 +62,7 @@ - + Applications Usenet Format Working Group Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lA6HC9kN086205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:12:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id lA6HC9UL086204; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:12:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id lA6HC7Ih086196 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3^clerew#man^ac$uk) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.262) id 4730a062.66dc.2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:12:02 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lA6HC14e027688 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:12:01 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id lA6HC2vN027685 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.nntp:5062 local.usefor:24747 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Updated news-nntp-uri I-D Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:06:51 GMT Lines: 340 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In "Charles Lindsey" writes: >In "Frank Ellermann" writes: >>Hi, I've posted an updated news-nntp-uri I-D, and will >>fix a new ltr-bug "local part (right hand side)" later: >>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri >>Counting all attempts to update the news URI scheme in >>RFC 1738 that's number 16, and I guess it's now at a >>point where further modifications would likely make it >>worse. >Russ agreed somewhile back that this document could be discussed on the >nntp mailing list (ietf-nntp@lists.eyrie.org) which, now that RFC3977 is >agreed, is still maintained to watch over future nntp developments such as >this. This message is therefore copied to that list, and I shall comment on >the draft there. OK, so my comments follow. They are mostly wording niggles, but there are some serious issues also. > The 'news' and 'nntp' URI Schemes > draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-06 > 2. Background > User agents like Web browsers supporting these schemes use the NNTP > protocol to access the corresponding resources. The details how they ^ of > do this, e.g. employing a separate or integrated newsreader, depend > on the implementation. The default associated with NNTP in > [RFC3977] is 119. > 2.1. 'nntp' URIs > For these reasons the use of the 'nntp' URI scheme is limited, and > it's less widely supported by user agents than the similar 'news' URI > scheme. s/it's/it is/ generally speaking, such abbreviations are deprecated in written English (though common in speech), especially in formal documents such as technical specifications. There are lots more example of this in your text, so I won't mention it again. > 2.2. 'news' URIs > .... More general user agents use the 'news' URI > scheme to distinguish "Message-IDs" from similar constructs like > other URI schemes in contexts like a plain text message body. s/like/such as/ (twice) > cases involving gateways not withstanding. To distinguish > "Message-IDs" and newsgroup names the 'news' URI scheme uses the "@" ^^^^ relies on > between local part (left hand side) and domain part (right hand side) > of "Message-IDs". > [RFC1738] offered only one wildcard for sets of newsgropus in 'news' > URIs, a "*" used to refer to "all available newsgroups". In common > practice this was extended to varying degrees by some user agents, an ^^^^ different > NNTP extension known as specified in [RFC2980] and now part > of the base NNTP specification allows pattern matching in the style > of the "find" command. For the purpose of this memo this means that ^ UNIX > some additional special characters have to be allowed in 'news' URIs, > some of them percent-encoded as required by the overall [RFC3986] URI > syntax. User agents and NNTP servers might not (yet) implement all ^ ^^^^^ not yet compliant with [RFC3977] XXXXX > parts of this new feature. > Another commonly supported addition to the [RFC1738] syntax is the > optional specification of a server at the begin of 'news' URIs. .... ^^^^^ beginning > 2.3. Query parts, fragments, and normalization > There are no special "." or ".." path segments in 'news' and 'nntp' > URLs. Please note that "." and ".." are no valid s. ^^ not > URI producers have to percent-encode some characters as specified > below (Section 4), otherwise they MUST treat a "Message-ID" without > angle brackets for 'news' URLs as is, i.e. case-sensitive, preserving > quoted pairs and quoted strings. However that might yet change. RFC2822bis seems to have removed quoted strings from msg-ids (though they seem more reluctant to fix the problems with quoted pairs). So we may yet try to bring [USEFOR] into line with that before it gets published. So it might be wiser not to submit this draft for a proposed standard until these uncertainties have been resolved. > 3. Syntax of 'nntp' URIs > An 'nntp' URI identifies an article by its number in a given > newsgroup of a specified server, or it identifies the newsgroup ^^ on > without article number. > A newsgroup name as specified in [RFC3977] allows (in > theory) any and most printable US-ASCII characters > excluding "!", "*", ",", "?", "[", "\", and "]". To keep the syntax > here simple all additional characters in not (yet) > allowed in [I-D.ietf-usefor-usefor] are covered by as > defined in [RFC3986], although percent-encoding is not strictly > necessary for some of these additional characters like ":", ";", and > "~". Most of the additional characters have to be percent-encoded, > example: I don't think that is sufficiently clear for those who may not have detailed knowledge of the details of [RFC3977] and [USEFOR]. so I would suggest to reword it as follows: A newsgroup name as specified in [RFC3977] allows (in theory) any and most printable US-ASCII characters excluding "!", "*", ",", "?", "[", "\", and "]". However, [I-D.ietf-usefor-usefor] does not (yet) permit characters outside of and so, to keep the syntax simple, the additional characters are here covered by as defined in [RFC3986], since most of them have to be percent-encoded anyway (with a few exceptions such as ":", ";", and "~"). For example: > 4. Syntax of 'news' URIs > newsURL = "news:" [ server "/" ] ( article / newsgroups ) > article = mid-left "@" mid-right > newsgroups = *( group-char / pct-encoded / "*" ) > > mid-left = 1*( mid-atext / "." ) / ; > ( "%22" mid-quote "%22" ) ; > mid-quote = 1*( mid-atext / "." / ; incl. > mid-special / ; '\"' / "[" / "]" > "%5C%22" / "%5B" / "%5D" ) > > mid-right = 1*( mid-atext / "." ) / ; > ( "%5B" mid-literal "%5D" ) ; > mid-literal = 1*( mid-atext / "." / ; incl. > mid-special / ; '"' / "\[" / "\]" > "%22" / "%5C%5B" / "%5C%5D" ) > > mid-special = "(" / ")" / "," / ":" / ";" / > "%3C" / "%40" / "%5C%5C" ; "<" / "@" / "\\" > > mid-atext = ALPHA / DIGIT / ; RFC 2822 > "!" / "$" / "&" / "'" / ; allowed sub-delims > "*" / "+" / "=" / ; allowed sub-delims > "-" / "_" / "~" / ; allowed unreserved > "%23" / "%25" / "%2F" / ; "#" / "%" / "/" > "%3F" / "%5E" / "%60" / ; "?" / "^" / "`" > "%7B" / "%7C" / "%7D" ; "{" / "|" / "}" No! Please do not attempt to write (yet another) full syntax for msg-ids here. We have already done that once in [USEFOR] (ugly but necessary). Moreover, if RFC2822bis abolishes quoted strings much of that ugly syntax might yet get removed. So all you need to say here is: newsURL = "news:" [ server "/" ] ( article / newsgroups ) article = msg-id-core ; defined in [I-D.ietf-usefor-usefor] newsgroups = wildmat ; defined in [RFC3977] > The form identifying an