From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon May 13 03:25:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7122C21F852D for ; Mon, 13 May 2013 03:25:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OyDjIV9kLu6z for ; Mon, 13 May 2013 03:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4722F21F8E8F for ; Mon, 13 May 2013 03:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4DAOxxW028675; Mon, 13 May 2013 12:24:59 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 12:25:04 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0083_01CE4FD4.E6425150" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac5PxBJaATCGYdMoQjike+GnlM5T4A== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6?= , Dan Wing , Martin Stiemerling Subject: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:25:19 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01CE4FD4.E6425150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So we still have a month. we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for standardization. So we could follow this structure: 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardization 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay requirements, classification methods, etc. Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very beginning. I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. What do you think? Any ideas? Thanks a lot and best regards!, Jose ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01CE4FD4.E6425150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all.

According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for = BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So we still have a = month.

we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF = proposal.

According to Martin’s suggestion, we could begin the = session with a teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are = and what is the need for standardization.

So we could follow this = structure:

1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need = for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential = WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF = proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc.

Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). = This would be good, since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC = we should “update” with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. = In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very = beginning.

I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the = charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of = (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first = author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best = regards!,

Jose =

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01CE4FD4.E6425150-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon May 13 03:34:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A1921F946F for ; Mon, 13 May 2013 03:34:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2AiHGcozutiv for ; Mon, 13 May 2013 03:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huecha.unizar.es (huecha.unizar.es [155.210.1.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A8C21F949F for ; Mon, 13 May 2013 03:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by huecha.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4DAXvgq001201; Mon, 13 May 2013 12:33:57 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 12:34:02 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <009b01ce4fc5$63234310$2969c930$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009C_01CE4FD6.26AC8840" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac5PxCObP29cIpyLQfmu5k7XOt7e8g== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de, Matteo.Berioli@dlr.de, Martin Stiemerling Subject: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin: Possible additional presentation related to satellites X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:34:10 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009C_01CE4FD6.26AC8840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding the BoF proposal, it could also be interesting to include another presentation: People from DLR (German Space Agency) had the interest of preparing another draft related to the idea in number 10 of the current charter: "In addition, specific uses of TCMTF, such as in wireless and satellite scenarios, could be considered, and it will be studied whether modifications or extensions are required on the protocol." So perhaps a 5th presentation about this other draft could be presented. What do you think? Jose ------=_NextPart_000_009C_01CE4FD6.26AC8840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Regarding the BoF proposal, it could also be interesting to = include another presentation:

People from DLR (German Space = Agency) had the interest of preparing another draft related to the idea = in number 10 of the current charter: “In addition, specific uses = of TCMTF, such as in wireless and satellite scenarios, could be = considered, and it will be studied whether modifications or extensions = are required on the protocol." So perhaps a 5^th = presentation about this other draft could be = presented.

What do you think?

Jose

------=_NextPart_000_009C_01CE4FD6.26AC8840-- From Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr Tue May 14 01:07:54 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A6F21F9017 for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 01:07:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YCDyRTBnEwLr for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 01:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fer.hr (mail.fer.hr [161.53.72.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB6121F8FF2 for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAIL4.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48ea::a135:48ea]) by MAIL.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48e9::a135:48e9]) with mapi id 14.02.0309.002; Tue, 14 May 2013 10:07:46 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6?= To: "tcmtf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Thread-Index: Ac5PxBJaATCGYdMoQjike+GnlM5T4AAsAxfQ Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 08:07:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [77.69.7.197] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C01CFFEMAIL4ferhr_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 08:07:54 -0000 --_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C01CFFEMAIL4ferhr_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everybody, Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is= to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way= that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort = to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits the solvin= g of our problem might bring. We more or less covered the network aspects o= f the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notio= n of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certa= in would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for= the European Commission. Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM To: tcmtf@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi all. According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 201= 3-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Direc= tors. So we still have a month. we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser = presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for = standardization. So we could follow this structure: 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardiza= tion 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay requirements, c= lassification methods, etc. Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one of = the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he knows= the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very= beginning. I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. What do you think? Any ideas? Thanks a lot and best regards!, Jose --_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C01CFFEMAIL4ferhr_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello e= verybody,

Well I = concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is to wel= l formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way that t= he problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must presen= t all the benefits the solving of our problem might bring. We more or= less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously= not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not c= ertain would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting= for the European Commission.

Ofcours= e I will create the presentation regarding my part. = &nb= sp; = &nb= sp; = &nb= sp;

Cheers!=

Mirko S= uznjevic

&n= bsp;

From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM
To: tcmtf@ietf.org
Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6
Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme<= /p>

Hi all.

According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (= Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So = we still have a month.

we could discuss a bit the poss= ible scheme for the BoF proposal.

According to Martin’s sug= gestion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation describing w= hat the exact issues are and what is the need for standardization.

So we could follow this structu= re:

1- Teaser presentation: describ= ing the problem and the need for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be gen= erated within this potential WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the curr= ent TCMTF proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the cont= ent of the draft about delay requirements, classification methods, etc.

Dan Wing could be in charge of = (1). This would be good, since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC= we should “update” with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. I= n addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very beginning.

I could be in charge of (2), ma= inly explaining the charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica= could be in charge of (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (= 4), since he is the first author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best regards!,=

Jose

--_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C01CFFEMAIL4ferhr_-- From jacl@tid.es Tue May 14 03:22:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B95B21F8FF2 for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 03:22:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.809 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.809 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4Zgc0F175Z4 for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 03:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from correo-bck.tid.es (correo-bck.tid.es [195.235.93.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A1921F8FF1 for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 03:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Sbrightmailg02.hi.inet [10.95.78.105]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MMS00CSAA5UFQ@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Tue, 14 May 2013 12:22:42 +0200 (MEST) Received: from vanvan (vanvan.hi.inet [10.95.78.49]) by sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 22.04.02845.27012915; Tue, 14 May 2013 12:22:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MMS00CS6A5UFQ@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Tue, 14 May 2013 12:22:42 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.38]) by EX10-HTCAS8-MAD.hi.inet ([fe80::41c8:e965:8a6:de67%11]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Tue, 14 May 2013 12:22:41 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 10:22:12 +0000 From: JUAN ANTONIO CASTELL LUCIA In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6?= , "tcmtf@ietf.org" Message-id: <49F52EC1A431BA4BBA8BA8CFF429B7392CA83636@EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_g/vt5eCD2KqaTZ2HBLgT3g)" Content-language: es-ES Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Thread-topic: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Thread-index: Ac5PxBJaATCGYdMoQjike+GnlM5T4AAsAxfQAATIUvA= X-AuditID: 0a5f4e69-b7fb26d000000b1d-fc-51921072cde4 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFe9nqFskMCnQ4OUVWYtdnzcwOjB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEro23DJeaCq+kVa3YsYG1g7I7qYuTkkBAwkfjRe4sFwhaTuHBv PRuILSSwnVFi8msVCPsno8Tr99kQ9gZGiccHw0FsFgFViX8/bjKC2GwCehKHVv0Hs4UFbCWO tj5mBbE5BZwkpt88ywQxX0Hiz7nHYLtEBNIkJvyeCLaLV8Bb4s+RnSwQtqDEj8n3wGxmgVyJ ebcPMUHY4hJzfk0Em8koICux8vxpRog5dhLbHv2FmmklcWjWA6hfBCSW7DnPDGGLSrx8/A+o lwPo/nyJ25/VJjCKzkKybRaSbbOQbIOw9SSenZoFVaMtsWzha2YIW1fi0sN1rMjiCxjZVzGK FScVZaZnlOQmZuakGxjpZWTqZeallmxihERW5g7G5TtVDjEKcDAq8fBeuFEbKMSaWFZcmXuI UYKDWUmE9zL3pEAh3pTEyqrUovz4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjHPZc20mu1XrHn1r5vI2fYfih1mn rD4fPv2ipfqEif8WH5aCiaIzP6decJy4zcfTr7h6zvqjkpqci7ybVwpb/sxLajxqJtTRN213 TjWT/rM1zyS7pvTFSEXFFHw1WaVpzPzW16mjTUDqHY974aQy5aV3+z6nBItNf7f00Y0VKU7n K98sutPVpMRSnJFoqMVcVJwIAOvBOgWKAgAA References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 10:22:50 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_g/vt5eCD2KqaTZ2HBLgT3g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I also concur with your proposal and with Mirko's suggestions. In a= ddition, I also would emphasize TCMTF will help to mitigate the excessive o= verhead that IPv6 may suppose in the near future due to its greater header. Regarding TEF participation in Draft A) presentation, we hope answer you so= mething in few days... Best Regards De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mir= ko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hello everybody, Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is= to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way= that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort = to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits the solvin= g of our problem might bring. We more or less covered the network aspects o= f the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notio= n of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certa= in would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for= the European Commission. Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM To: tcmtf@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi all. According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 201= 3-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Direc= tors. So we still have a month. we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser = presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for = standardization. So we could follow this structure: 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardiza= tion 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay requirements, c= lassification methods, etc. Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one of = the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he knows= the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very= beginning. I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. What do you think? Any ideas? Thanks a lot and best regards!, Jose ________________________________ Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at: http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx --Boundary_(ID_g/vt5eCD2KqaTZ2HBLgT3g) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all, I also concur = with your proposal and with Mirko’s suggestions. In addition, I also = would emphasize TCMTF will help to mitigate the excessive overhead that IPv= 6 may suppose in the near future due to its greater header.

Regarding TEF particip= ation in Draft A) presentation, we hope answer you something in few days= 230;

Best Regards

De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic
Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme<= /p>

Hello e= verybody,

Ofcours= e I will create the presentation regarding my part. = &nb= sp; = &nb= sp; = &nb= sp;

Cheers!=

Mirko S= uznjevic

<= /span>

Hi all.

According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (= Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So = we still have a month.

we could discuss a bit the poss= ible scheme for the BoF proposal.

According to Martin’s sug= gestion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation describing w= hat the exact issues are and what is the need for standardization.

So we could follow this structu= re:

1- Teaser presentation: describ= ing the problem and the need for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be gen= erated within this potential WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the curr= ent TCMTF proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the cont= ent of the draft about delay requirements, classification methods, etc.

I could be in charge of (2), ma= inly explaining the charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica= could be in charge of (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (= 4), since he is the first author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best regards!,=

Jose

Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at:
http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx
--Boundary_(ID_g/vt5eCD2KqaTZ2HBLgT3g)-- From fpb@tid.es Tue May 14 04:01:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25AED21F8F20 for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 04:01:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hDV+9qqXidwl for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 04:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from correo-bck.tid.es (correo-bck.tid.es [195.235.93.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FB221F8546 for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 04:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Sbrightmailg02.hi.inet [10.95.78.105]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MMS00CQABXUFQ@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Tue, 14 May 2013 13:01:06 +0200 (MEST) Received: from vanvan (vanvan.hi.inet [10.95.78.49]) by sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 79.55.02845.27912915; Tue, 14 May 2013 13:01:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MMS00CQ6BXUFQ@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Tue, 14 May 2013 13:01:06 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.38]) by EX10-HTCAS7-MAD.hi.inet ([::1]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Tue, 14 May 2013 13:01:05 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 11:00:37 +0000 From: FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO In-reply-to: <49F52EC1A431BA4BBA8BA8CFF429B7392CA83636@EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet> X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: JUAN ANTONIO CASTELL LUCIA , =?windows-1250?Q?Mirko_Su=9Enjevi=E6?= , "tcmtf@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_VWXs3m7g5NYbVPwobMXI0w)" Content-language: en-US Accept-Language: en-US, es-ES Thread-topic: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Thread-index: Ac5PxBJaATCGYdMoQjike+GnlM5T4AAsAxfQAATIUvAAAsZEgA== user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.2.130206 X-AuditID: 0a5f4e69-b7fb26d000000b1d-52-51921972c69b X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpjkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42Lhivcz1C2SnBRosGWNksWuzxsYHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CV8XzOTeaCC62MFT+aFrA2MH4r7mLk5JAQMJE48+cnE4QtJnHh 3nq2LkYuDiGB7YwS7c+PMUM4PxklLjR+YIdwpjFKTP58CqyFRUBVYsulY2A2m4CWxOm7q1hA bGEBW4mf27ewgticAj4S19pvs0OsUJD4c+4xC8ggEYEpjBITHmwGKuLg4BXwlvjXoApSwysg KPFj8j2wOcwCuRJb/z9hhbDFJZpbb4LFGQVkJd7Nnw8WFxGwk9j26C8LhO0kcX7VUrB7RAX0 JG6eaWGF2CsgsWTPeWYIW1Ti5eN/rBMYRWchWTcLybpZSNbNArqOWcBA4tE+b4iwtsSyha+Z IcL6ErevZUKEzSQ+vPzMiqxkASPHKkax4qSizPSMktzEzJx0AyO9jEy9zLzUkk2MkLjL3MG4 fKfKIUYBDkYlHt4LN2oDhVgTy4orcw8xSnAwK4nwXuaeFCjEm5JYWZValB9fVJqTWnyIkYmD U6qBcd28+KehxyQjPm4S37r8/fYtizXL2UK09iX9mxH9o0Nga3tr9drFJXdnrJuc+9lx4ucH 1ZMOhqs7KJeticmV40uPmsTvGPXSwJAlPZp9845yAc3coIjDIZfy7cyFp/ErBf92flXU8vaJ svXxds+F3XKS1xZedBJ+kPV6tcd+x0JX6ZkMd6sfK7EUZyQaajEXFScCABIkgfKZAgAA Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 11:01:16 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_VWXs3m7g5NYbVPwobMXI0w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello everybody, I think it is a good way to face the problem we intend to solve. Actually I= think the best way to start the BoF is as you suggested, Dan is the one th= at can explain why RFC4170 needs to be updated because he lived there and, = of course, what need to be solved nowadays, because, believe me, it exist. = And rephrasing Juan Antonio with IPv6 the need will be bigger. Regards, Fernando Pascual Blanco Telef=F3nica Global Resources Network Automation and Dynamization TECHNOLOGY PEOPLE GROUP F +34913128779 M +34682005168 fpb@tid.es From: JUAN ANTONIO CASTELL LUCIA > Date: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 12:22 To: Mirko Su=9Enjevi=E6 >, "tcmtf@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi all, I also concur with your proposal and with Mirko=92s suggestions. In= addition, I also would emphasize TCMTF will help to mitigate the excessive= overhead that IPv6 may suppose in the near future due to its greater heade= r. Regarding TEF participation in Draft A) presentation, we hope answer you so= mething in few days=85 Best Regards De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bou= nces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=9Enjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hello everybody, Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is= to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way= that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort = to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits the solvin= g of our problem might bring. We more or less covered the network aspects o= f the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notio= n of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certa= in would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for= the European Commission. Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM To: tcmtf@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=9Enjevi=E6 Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi all. According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 201= 3-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Direc= tors. So we still have a month. we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. According to Martin=92s suggestion, we could begin the session with a tease= r presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need fo= r standardization. So we could follow this structure: 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardiza= tion 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay requirements, c= lassification methods, etc. Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one of = the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should =93update=94 with TCMTF), so he k= nows the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the = very beginning. I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. What do you think? Any ideas? Thanks a lot and best regards!, Jose ________________________________ Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at: http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx ________________________________ Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at: http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx --Boundary_(ID_VWXs3m7g5NYbVPwobMXI0w) Content-id: Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1250 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hello everybody,

I thin= k it is a good way to face the problem we intend to solve. Actually I think= the best way to start the BoF is as you suggested, Dan is the one that can= explain why RFC4170 needs to be updated because he lived there and, of course, what need to be solved nowadays, be= cause, believe me, it exist. And rephrasing Juan Antonio with IPv6 the need= will be bigger.

Regards,

Fernando Pascual Blanco

Telef=F3nica Global Resources

Network Automation and Dynamization

TECHNOLOGY PEOPLE GROUP

F +34913128779

M +34682005168

fpb@tid.es

From: JUAN ANTONIO CASTELL LUCIA &l= t;jacl@tid.es>
Date: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 12= :22
To: Mirko Su=9Enjevi=E6 <Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr>, "tcmtf@ietf.org" <tcmtf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal f= or Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi all, I also concur = with your proposal and with Mirko=92s suggestions. In addition, I also woul= d emphasize TCMTF will help to mitigate the excessive overhead that IPv6 ma= y suppose in the near future due to its greater header.

Regarding TEF particip= ation in Draft A) presentation, we hope answer you something in few days=85=

Best Regards

De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=9Enjevic
Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme<= /p>

Hello e= verybody,

Ofcours= e I will create the presentation regarding my part. = &nb= sp; = &nb= sp; = &nb= sp;

Cheers!=

Mirko S= uznjevic

<= /span>

From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM
To: tcmtf@ietf.org
Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=9Enjevi=E6
Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi all.

According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (= Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So = we still have a month.

we could discuss a bit the poss= ible scheme for the BoF proposal.

According to Martin=92s suggest= ion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation describing what = the exact issues are and what is the need for standardization.

So we could follow this structu= re:

1- Teaser presentation: describ= ing the problem and the need for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be gen= erated within this potential WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the curr= ent TCMTF proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the cont= ent of the draft about delay requirements, classification methods, etc.

Dan Wing could be in charge of = (1). This would be good, since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC= we should =93update=94 with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. In additi= on, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very beginning.

I could be in charge of (2), ma= inly explaining the charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica= could be in charge of (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (= 4), since he is the first author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best regards!,=

Jose

Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at:
http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx
--Boundary_(ID_VWXs3m7g5NYbVPwobMXI0w)-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Wed May 15 01:57:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B218621F8F0C for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 01:57:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F1z2Rna4JglN for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 01:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huecha.unizar.es (huecha.unizar.es [155.210.1.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BC721F8F15 for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 01:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by huecha.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4F8vRP1011245; Wed, 15 May 2013 10:57:28 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "=?iso-8859-2?Q?'Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6'?=" References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:57:34 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <005101ce514a$3e41ea20$bac5be60$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0052_01CE515B.01CBF2A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQMEIpyho0KjN7tC+jPQgybcWLqFigHQInc0lovMrgA= Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:57:38 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01CE515B.01CBF2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Mirko. =20 The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting more = and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only European = Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the duration of the = battery is critical there. =20 For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM = reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application requests and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling = reduction and also improves stand-by time." =20 http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-managing-backgr= oun d-data-traffic-mobile-devices =20 Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The = benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: =20 1- Bandwidth saving 2- PPS reduction 3- Energy savings =20 What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? =20 Best regards, =20 Jose =20 De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hello everybody, Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do = is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent = way that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting = effort to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits the = solving of our problem might bring. We more or less covered the network aspects of = the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notion = of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certain would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for = the European Commission. Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic =20 =20 From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es]=20 Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM To: tcmtf@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi all. =20 According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So we still have a month. =20 we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. =20 According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a = teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need = for standardization. =20 So we could follow this structure: =20 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardization =20 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG =20 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal =20 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc. =20 =20 Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one = of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he = knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the = very beginning. =20 I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. =20 Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). =20 Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. =20 =20 =20 What do you think? Any ideas? =20 Thanks a lot and best regards!, =20 Jose=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01CE515B.01CBF2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Mirko.

The idea of = energy savings is also interesting. People are getting more and more = concerned with the energy consumption. Not only European Commission, but = also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the duration of the battery is = critical there.

For = example, “Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket = Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM = reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application requests = and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling = reduction and also improves stand-by = time.”

http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-ma= naging-background-data-traffic-mobile-devices

Perhaps we could also include this = idea in the presentations. The benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead = of 2:

1- = Bandwidth saving

2- PPS = reduction

3- Energy savings

What do you = think? Will people at the IETF like energy = savings?

Best = regards,

Jose

De: = tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de = Mirko Su=BEnjevic
Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 = 10:08
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF = proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hello = everybody,

Well I concur with the structure. I believe that = the main thing is to do is to well formulate and explain the problem. We = must prove in a coherent way that the problem we are addressing here is = a problem worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must = present all the benefits the solving of our problem might bring. = We more or less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of = the previously not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings = which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certain would = such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for the = European Commission.

Ofcourse I will create the = presentation regarding my = part. &n= bsp; &nb= sp; &nbs= p; = ; = =

Cheers!

Mirko = Suznjevic

From:= Jose = Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] =
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM
To: tcmtf@ietf.org
Cc: Martin = Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6
Subject: BoF = proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi all.

According to http:/= /www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 = (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. = So we still have a month.

we could discuss a bit the possible = scheme for the BoF proposal.

According to Martin’s = suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation = describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for = standardization.

So we could follow this structure:

1- Teaser presentation: describing = the problem and the need for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be = generated within this potential WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the current = TCMTF proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc.

I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the = charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of = (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first = author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best = regards!,

Jose

------=_NextPart_000_0052_01CE515B.01CBF2A0-- From gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed May 15 02:10:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B821F874A for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 02:10:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hLqPxFa1SJI2 for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 02:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF9721F8CEC for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 02:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.erg.abdn.ac.uk (blake.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.210.30]) by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E5DB2B42D4; Wed, 15 May 2013 10:09:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from 139.133.204.42 (SquirrelMail authenticated user gorry) by www.erg.abdn.ac.uk with HTTP; Wed, 15 May 2013 10:09:57 +0100 Message-ID: <4df6cd099df67aa699d7956a56e89ad0.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <005101ce514a$3e41ea20$bac5be60$@unizar.es> References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> <005101ce514a$3e41ea20$bac5be60$@unizar.es> Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:09:57 +0100 From: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk To: jsaldana@unizar.es User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22'Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6'=22?= Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:10:03 -0000 My guess is that many people at the IETF would "like" to see people say they plan to implement for a product, or that they plan to devote significant effort to seeing the standard matches their need for a particular use case (e.g. operators or equipment vendors). This can be a strong indication that there is a need for a standard. This can be in a slide, or at the Mic or on the list, slides, etc... If it's just researchers wanting toi agree a spec that may also be OK, but then it could be an IRTF activity that comes up with an experimental spec for people to evaluate. Gorry > Hi, Mirko. > > > > The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting more > and > more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only European Commission, > but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the duration of the battery > is > critical there. > > > > For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket > Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM reduces > smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application requests and > intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling reduction > and also improves stand-by time." > > > nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices> > http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-managing-backgroun > d-data-traffic-mobile-devices > > > > Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The benefits > of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: > > > > 1- Bandwidth saving > > 2- PPS reduction > > 3- Energy savings > > > > What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jose > > > > De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de > Mirko Su�njevic > Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 > Para: tcmtf@ietf.org > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > > > Hello everybody, > > Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do > is > to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way > that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort > to > and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits the solving > of > our problem might bring. We more or less covered the network aspects of > the > TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notion of > energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certain > would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for > the > European Commission. > > Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. > > > Cheers! > > Mirko Suznjevic > > > > > > From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM > To: tcmtf@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su�njevi� > Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > > > Hi all. > > > > According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, > 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area > Directors. So we still have a month. > > > > we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. > > > > According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser > presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for > standardization. > > > > So we could follow this structure: > > > > 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for > standardization > > > > 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG > > > > 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal > > > > 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay requirements, > classification methods, etc. > > > > > > Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one of > the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he > knows > the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very > beginning. > > > > I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. > > > > Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). > > > > Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. > > > > > > > > What do you think? Any ideas? > > > > Thanks a lot and best regards!, > > > > Jose > > > > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > From jsaldana@unizar.es Wed May 15 02:45:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B26721F87CD for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 02:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.115 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.115 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.484, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FxG7OW4Hs4IO for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 02:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isuela.unizar.es (isuela.unizar.es [155.210.1.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98DF21F87E0 for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 02:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by isuela.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4F9iicJ010309; Wed, 15 May 2013 11:44:50 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> <005101ce514a$3e41ea20$bac5be60$@unizar.es> <4df6cd099df67aa699d7956a56e89ad0.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <4df6cd099df67aa699d7956a56e89ad0.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 11:44:53 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <006b01ce5150$dd9fbd30$98df3790$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQMEIpyho0KjN7tC+jPQgybcWLqFigHQInc0Adx0aVwCA+xfOpZs0G5Q Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, Gonzalo Camarillo , Dan Wing , =?iso-8859-1?Q?'=22'Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6'=22'?= , DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA , Fernando Pascual Blanco Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:45:08 -0000 Thanks, Gorry. It is clear that we should emphasize the interest of the industry on = TCMTF. And someone from the industry saying "we have plans for implementing = this" will be really convenient. Currently, the main draft includes (as authors or contributing authors) people from Univ. Zaragoza, Cisco, Ericsson and Telefonica. The Draft B includes Univ. Zagreb and Univ. Zaragoza. So we should definitely try to find an equilibrium between industry and academia. The (preliminary) distribution of the presentations is: 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardization. Dan Wing (Cisco). I think that the idea of the industry interest should be stressed here. 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG. Jose = Saldana (University of Zaragoza) =20 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal. Someone from = Telefonica would be perfect here (they are thinking about it) =20 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc. Mirko Suznevic (University of Zagreb) (5- Possible presentation of a new draft about satellite scenario. = Someone from DLR.) So we would have 3 industry people + 2 academia people presentations. Do = you think this distribution would be convenient? Thanks! Jose > -----Mensaje original----- > De: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] > Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 11:10 > Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > CC: "'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'"; tcmtf@ietf.org > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme >=20 > My guess is that many people at the IETF would "like" to see people = say they > plan to implement for a product, or that they plan to devote = significant effort > to seeing the standard matches their need for a particular use case = (e.g. > operators or equipment vendors). This can be a strong indication that there is > a need for a standard. This can be in a slide, or at the Mic or on = the list, slides, > etc... >=20 > If it's just researchers wanting toi agree a spec that may also be OK, = but then > it could be an IRTF activity that comes up with an experimental spec = for > people to evaluate. >=20 > Gorry >=20 > > Hi, Mirko. > > > > > > > > The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting > > more and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only > European > > Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the = duration > > of the battery is critical there. > > > > > > > > For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network = Socket > > Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM > > reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application = requests > > and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling > > reduction and also improves stand-by time." > > > > > > managing-ba > > ckgrou > > nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices> > > http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research- > managing-bac > > kgroun > > d-data-traffic-mobile-devices > > > > > > > > Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The > > benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: > > > > > > > > 1- Bandwidth saving > > > > 2- PPS reduction > > > > 3- Energy savings > > > > > > > > What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Jose > > > > > > > > De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre > > de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 > > Para: tcmtf@ietf.org > > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > > > > > > > Hello everybody, > > > > Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is = to > > do is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a > > coherent way that the problem we are addressing here is a problem > > worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must present > > all the benefits the solving of our problem might bring. We more or > > less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the > > previously not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings = which > > TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certain would such = topics > > be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for the European > > Commission. > > > > Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > Mirko Suznjevic > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM > > To: tcmtf@ietf.org > > Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 > > Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > > > > > > > Hi all. > > > > > > > > According to > > http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, > > 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to > > Area Directors. So we still have a month. > > > > > > > > we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. > > > > > > > > According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a > > teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is > > the need for standardization. > > > > > > > > So we could follow this structure: > > > > > > > > 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for > > standardization > > > > > > > > 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG > > > > > > > > 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal > > > > > > > > 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay > > requirements, classification methods, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is > > one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with = TCMTF), > > so he knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF > > draft from the very beginning. > > > > > > > > I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. > > > > > > > > Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). > > > > > > > > Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think? Any ideas? > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot and best regards!, > > > > > > > > Jose > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tcmtf mailing list > > tcmtf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > > From Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de Wed May 15 13:19:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902DC21F84D9 for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 13:19:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.248 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.248 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RmUS5VmjC6HP for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 13:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.dlr.de (mailhost.dlr.de [129.247.252.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6F421F86AE for ; Wed, 15 May 2013 13:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DLREXHUB01.intra.dlr.de (172.21.152.130) by dlrexedge02.dlr.de (172.21.163.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.328.9; Wed, 15 May 2013 22:19:13 +0200 Received: from DLREXMBX01.intra.dlr.de ([fe80::d198:77e5:d411:fccd]) by dlrexhub01.intra.dlr.de ([::1]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Wed, 15 May 2013 22:19:16 +0200 From: To: Thread-Topic: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Thread-Index: AQHOUHom8rAN1QvTdUC73NAGDVeR5JkF0f8AgADd1SA= Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 20:19:16 +0000 Message-ID: <1A39DCC13AF3C14B83CD74124D4DCFC316F73162@DLREXMBX01.intra.dlr.de> References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> <005101ce514a$3e41ea20$bac5be60$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: <005101ce514a$3e41ea20$bac5be60$@unizar.es> Accept-Language: it-IT, de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.136.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1A39DCC13AF3C14B83CD74124D4DCFC316F73162DLREXMBX01intra_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 20:19:39 -0000 --_000_1A39DCC13AF3C14B83CD74124D4DCFC316F73162DLREXMBX01intra_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jose, If I'm not wrong IETF is also interested in energy saving issues (e.g., ema= n, roll WGs). I think that in our case it is also important to figure out w= hether we are talking about battery consumption on mobile devices, sensor n= odes, etc. or on the power usage in routers and other intermediate nodes, w= hich is a topic largely addressed in the field of green networking. This di= fferentiation can be clarified according to the specific scenarios we are a= ddressing, so that we can highlight whether tcmtf concepts are more benefic= ial for the end-nodes or for the network infrastructure. If the latter is t= he case, probably network operators like Telefonica and device manifacturer= s like Cisco (who both already contributed to the discussion in this list) = can further motivate the need for a standard (or more than one). Regards, Tomaso ------------------------ Deutsches Zentrum f=FCr Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR) German Aerospace Center Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaff= enhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D. Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 | tomaso.decola@dlr.de= http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san From: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J= ose Saldana Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 10:58 AM To: 'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6' Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi, Mirko. The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting more and= more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only European Commission, = but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the duration of the battery i= s critical there. For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket Reque= st Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM reduces smart = phone signaling traffic by bundling application requests and intelligently = delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling reduction and also impro= ves stand-by time." http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-managing-backgrou= nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The benefits = of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: 1- Bandwidth saving 2- PPS reduction 3- Energy savings What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? Best regards, Jose De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bou= nces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hello everybody, Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is= to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way= that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort = to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits the solvin= g of our problem might bring. We more or less covered the network aspects o= f the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notio= n of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certa= in would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for= the European Commission. Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM To: tcmtf@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi all. According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 201= 3-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Direc= tors. So we still have a month. we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser = presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for = standardization. So we could follow this structure: 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardiza= tion 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay requirements, c= lassification methods, etc. Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one of = the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he knows= the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very= beginning. I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. What do you think? Any ideas? Thanks a lot and best regards!, Jose --_000_1A39DCC13AF3C14B83CD74124D4DCFC316F73162DLREXMBX01intra_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jose,

If I’m not wrong= IETF is also interested in energy saving issues (e.g., eman, roll WGs). I = think that in our case it is also important to figure out whether we are ta= lking about battery consumption on mobile devices, sensor nodes, etc. or on the power usage in routers and other int= ermediate nodes, which is a topic largely addressed in the field of green n= etworking. This differentiation can be clarified according to the specific = scenarios we are addressing, so that we can highlight whether tcmtf concepts are more beneficial for the e= nd-nodes or for the network infrastructure. If the latter is the case, prob= ably network operators like Telefonica and device manifacturers like Cisco = (who both already contributed to the discussion in this list) can further motivate the need for a standard = (or more than one).

Regards,

Tomaso

——————= ;——————————R= 12;———————
Deutsches Zentrum f=FCr Luft- und Raumfa= hrt (DLR)
German Aerospace Center
Institute of Communications and Navigation = | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany

Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.
Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | = Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 | tomaso.decola@dlr.de
http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/= san

= ;

From: tcmtf-bo= unces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Saldana
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 10:58 AM
To: 'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'
Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi, Mirko.=

= ;

The idea of energy sav= ings is also interesting. People are getting more and more concerned with t= he energy consumption. Not only European Commission, but also smartphone an= d tablet manufacturers: the duration of the battery is critical there.

For example, “Qu= alcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket Request Manager (NSRM= ) for efficient application management. NSRM reduces smart phone signaling = traffic by bundling application requests and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling reduction= and also improves stand-by time.”

http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualc= omm-research-managing-background-data-traffic-mobile-devices

Perhaps we could also = include this idea in the presentations. The benefits of packet grouping are= 3 instead of 2:

1- Bandwidth saving

2- PPS reduction<= /o:p>

3- Energy savings=

What do you think? Wil= l people at the IETF like energy savings?

Best regards,

Jose=

De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic
Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hello e= verybody,

Well I = concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is to wel= l formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way that t= he problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must presen= t all the benefits the solving of our problem might bring. We more or= less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously= not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not c= ertain would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting= for the European Commission.

Ofcours= e I will create the presentation regarding my part.    =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;

Cheers!=

Mirko S= uznjevic

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

From: Jose Saldana [m= ailto:jsaldana@unizar.es]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM
To: tcmtf@ietf.org
Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6
Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme<= /p>

Hi all.

According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (= Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So = we still have a month.

we could discuss a bit the poss= ible scheme for the BoF proposal.

According to Martin’s sug= gestion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation describing w= hat the exact issues are and what is the need for standardization.

So we could follow this structu= re:

1- Teaser presentation: describ= ing the problem and the need for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be gen= erated within this potential WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the curr= ent TCMTF proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the cont= ent of the draft about delay requirements, classification methods, etc.

Dan Wing could be in charge of = (1). This would be good, since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC= we should “update” with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. I= n addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very beginning.

I could be in charge of (2), ma= inly explaining the charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica= could be in charge of (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (= 4), since he is the first author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best regards!,=

Jose

--_000_1A39DCC13AF3C14B83CD74124D4DCFC316F73162DLREXMBX01intra_-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Thu May 16 01:07:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317BE21F8EC6 for ; Thu, 16 May 2013 01:07:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.236 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.236 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.362, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hNCV7XzpH4lZ for ; Thu, 16 May 2013 01:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huecha.unizar.es (huecha.unizar.es [155.210.1.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD2221F8F0A for ; Thu, 16 May 2013 01:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by huecha.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4G86gBA008319; Thu, 16 May 2013 10:06:43 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> <005101ce514a$3e41ea20$bac5be60$@unizar.es> <1A39DCC13AF3C14B83CD74124D4DCFC316F73162@DLREXMBX01.intra.dlr.de> In-Reply-To: <1A39DCC13AF3C14B83CD74124D4DCFC316F73162@DLREXMBX01.intra.dlr.de> Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 10:06:48 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <005d01ce520c$514821d0$f3d86570$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005E_01CE521D.14D314B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQMEIpyho0KjN7tC+jPQgybcWLqFigHQInc0Adx0aVwCD43m+JZt78aQ Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6?= Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:07:09 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01CE521D.14D314B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Tomaso. Your idea is interesting. My opinion: =20 - TCMTF can reduce pps (and consequently energy) in routers and other intermediate nodes, since in that place we can find a lot of flows to be multiplexed together. =20 - Regarding the battery of a mobile phone, I don't see the savings so straightforward, since the number of flows is smaller. And you cannot = put together a number of packets belonging to the same real-time flow = without annoying the user. One case I found some days ago: I was downloading a = big file with a laptop connected via Wi-Fi to a DSL, and I captured the = traffic with Wireshark. I found that my laptop was sending 125 ACKs per second!. = If we put a number of ACKs together (they can be compressed: same origin = and destination, same ports, etc), we can reduce the number of pps, and also bandwidth. However, we should be careful with TCP timeouts and so on. =20 Perhaps we could think about other savings in terminals: e.g., sensor networks? =20 Best regards, =20 Jose =20 De: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de [mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de]=20 Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 22:19 Para: jsaldana@unizar.es CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr Asunto: RE: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi Jose, =20 If I'm not wrong IETF is also interested in energy saving issues (e.g., eman, roll WGs). I think that in our case it is also important to figure = out whether we are talking about battery consumption on mobile devices, = sensor nodes, etc. or on the power usage in routers and other intermediate = nodes, which is a topic largely addressed in the field of green networking. = This differentiation can be clarified according to the specific scenarios we = are addressing, so that we can highlight whether tcmtf concepts are more beneficial for the end-nodes or for the network infrastructure. If the latter is the case, probably network operators like Telefonica and = device manifacturers like Cisco (who both already contributed to the discussion = in this list) can further motivate the need for a standard (or more than = one). =20 Regards, =20 Tomaso =20 ------------------------=20 Deutsches Zentrum f=FCr Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR)=20 German Aerospace Center=20 Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany=20 Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.=20 Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 | tomaso.decola@dlr.de=20 http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san=20 =20 From: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Jose Saldana Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 10:58 AM To: 'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6' Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi, Mirko. =20 The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting more = and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only European = Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the duration of the = battery is critical there. =20 For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM = reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application requests and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling = reduction and also improves stand-by time." =20 http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-managing-backgr= oun d-data-traffic-mobile-devices =20 Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The = benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: =20 1- Bandwidth saving 2- PPS reduction 3- Energy savings =20 What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? =20 Best regards, =20 Jose =20 De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hello everybody, Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do = is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent = way that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting = effort to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits the = solving of our problem might bring. We more or less covered the network aspects of = the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notion = of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certain would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for = the European Commission. Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic =20 =20 From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es]=20 Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM To: tcmtf@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi all. =20 According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So we still have a month. =20 we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. =20 According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a = teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need = for standardization. =20 So we could follow this structure: =20 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardization =20 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG =20 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal =20 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc. =20 =20 Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one = of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he = knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the = very beginning. =20 I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. =20 Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). =20 Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. =20 =20 =20 What do you think? Any ideas? =20 Thanks a lot and best regards!, =20 Jose=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01CE521D.14D314B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Tomaso. Your idea is interesting. = My = opinion:

- TCMTF can = reduce pps (and consequently energy) in routers and other intermediate = nodes, since in that place we can find a lot of flows to be multiplexed = together.

- Regarding = the battery of a mobile phone, I don’t see the savings so = straightforward, since the number of flows is smaller. And you cannot = put together a number of packets belonging to the same real-time flow = without annoying the user. One case I found some days ago: I was = downloading a big file with a =A0laptop connected via Wi-Fi to a DSL, = and I captured the traffic with Wireshark. I found that my laptop was = sending 125 ACKs per second!. If we put a number of ACKs together (they = can be compressed: same origin and destination, same ports, etc), we can = reduce the number of pps, and also bandwidth. However, we should be = careful with TCP timeouts and so on.

Perhaps we = could think about other savings in terminals: e.g., sensor = networks?

Best = regards,

Jose

De: = Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de [mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de]
Enviado = el: mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 22:19
Para: = jsaldana@unizar.es
CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; = Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr
Asunto: RE: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for = Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi Jose,

If I’m not wrong IETF is also = interested in energy saving issues (e.g., eman, roll WGs). I think that = in our case it is also important to figure out whether we are talking = about battery consumption on mobile devices, sensor nodes, etc. or on = the power usage in routers and other intermediate nodes, which is a = topic largely addressed in the field of green networking. This = differentiation can be clarified according to the specific scenarios we = are addressing, so that we can highlight whether tcmtf concepts are more = beneficial for the end-nodes or for the network infrastructure. If the = latter is the case, probably network operators like Telefonica and = device manifacturers like Cisco (who both already contributed to the = discussion in this list) can further motivate the need for a standard = (or more than one).

Regards,

Tomaso

——————————&#= 8212;—————————̵= 2;———
Deutsches Zentrum f=FCr Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR)
German Aerospace Center
Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | = Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany
Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.
Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 | tomaso.decola= @dlr.de =
http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san=

From:= tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Jose Saldana
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, = 2013 10:58 AM
To: 'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'
Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi, Mirko.

The idea of energy savings is also = interesting. People are getting more and more concerned with the energy = consumption. Not only European Commission, but also smartphone and = tablet manufacturers: the duration of the battery is critical = there.

For example, “Qualcomm has = developed a solution called Network Socket Request Manager (NSRM) for = efficient application management. NSRM reduces smart phone signaling = traffic by bundling application requests and intelligently delaying = them. NSRM provides significant signaling reduction and also improves = stand-by time.”
http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-ma= naging-background-data-traffic-mobile-devices

Perhaps we could also include this = idea in the presentations. The benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead = of 2:

1- Bandwidth saving
2- PPS reduction
3- Energy savings

What do you think? Will people at = the IETF like energy savings?

Best regards,

Jose

De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org]= En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic
Enviado el: martes, 14 = de mayo de 2013 10:08
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: = [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hello = everybody,
Well I = concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is to = well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way = that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting = effort to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits = the solving of our problem might bring. We more or less covered = the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not = emphasized things is the notion of energy savings which TCMTF = implementation might bring. I am not certain would such topics be = interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for the European = Commission.
Ofcourse I = will create the presentation regarding my = part.           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             =
Cheers!
Mirko Suznjevic

From:= Jose = Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] =
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM
To: tcmtf@ietf.org
Cc: Martin = Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6
Subject: BoF = proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi all.

According to http:/= /www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 = (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. = So we still have a month.

we could discuss a bit the possible = scheme for the BoF proposal.

According to Martin’s = suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation = describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for = standardization.

So we could follow this structure:

1- Teaser presentation: describing = the problem and the need for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be = generated within this potential WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the current = TCMTF proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc.

Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, = since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should = “update” with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. In = addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very = beginning.

I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the = charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of = (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first = author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best = regards!,

Jose

------=_NextPart_000_005E_01CE521D.14D314B0-- From mramalho@cisco.com Thu May 16 07:18:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB1421F8EC1 for ; Thu, 16 May 2013 07:18:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MOMxp+XjMT0U for ; Thu, 16 May 2013 07:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDFD21F9227 for ; Thu, 16 May 2013 07:18:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=87399; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1368713885; x=1369923485; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=MqPEZrK5lRHgsP0VXuSX2hmybkB1mQcNKuV7FA5pMFE=; b=Vnw2RddvUTgX9YNkrJ2kh4RpSMd9wTmTsQU+o1VEF1DphYr0GiOXjkTq GsIuHqzEZoVapvmY220BC0PR8UI3fpMpamhBWsmXJQ7cWBSL7v0XTGQS1 m9eewst4lyWcPET/qLR8nYF+6v7AfPouLuER0G5p37k3YNIxejINKT0Lc o=; X-Files: TFRC_Rate_as_function_of_RTT.pdf : 38508 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgUFAMjplFGtJXG+/2dsb2JhbABbgkNEN8FBfBZ0gh8BAQEELRg0EAIBCBEEAQELFgEGBwIYDwkUCQgCBAEJBAUIAQUNh3EMvSqNVheBABYbBgGCdGEDj3qFbJMMgxCCJg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,684,1363132800"; d="pdf'?scan'208,217";a="211103763" Received: from rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com ([173.37.113.190]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 May 2013 14:18:04 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com [173.37.183.88]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r4GEI4Gs028994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 16 May 2013 14:18:04 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x12.cisco.com ([169.254.2.133]) by xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([173.37.183.88]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 16 May 2013 09:18:03 -0500 From: "Michael Ramalho (mramalho)" To: "jsaldana@unizar.es" , "Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de" Thread-Topic: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Thread-Index: AQHOUHoleHYQWM//90SLNaIRvcsgl5kGR1gAgAC+dwCAAMWuAIAAD+Sg Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 14:18:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> <005101ce514a$3e41ea20$bac5be60$@unizar.es> <1A39DCC13AF3C14B83CD74124D4DCFC316F73162@DLREXMBX01.intra.dlr.de> <005d01ce520c$514821d0$f3d86570$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: <005d01ce520c$514821d0$f3d86570$@unizar.es> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.117.125.231] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_D21571530BF9644D9A443D6BD95B910315559B57xmbrcdx12ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "tcmtf@ietf.org" , =?iso-8859-2?Q?Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6?= Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 14:18:11 -0000 --_004_D21571530BF9644D9A443D6BD95B910315559B57xmbrcdx12ciscoc_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D21571530BF9644D9A443D6BD95B910315559B57xmbrcdx12ciscoc_" --_000_D21571530BF9644D9A443D6BD95B910315559B57xmbrcdx12ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jose, Re: 125 ACKs per second is an ACK every 8 ms or so for your laptop. Got to be careful when you want to compress/aggregate them ... for example = ... 1) If the flow has a long RTT (excluding any RTT increase due to aggregatio= n/delay of some ACKs) ... something like 200 ms RTT ... you can aggregate u= p to 50 ms worth of them with little decrease in maximum transfer BW. 2) Conversely, if the flow has a short RTT (sub ~70 ms) ... you can lose up= to HALF the maximum transfer BW by delaying ACKs by 25ms (on average). Pick a background packet loss rate and look at the TFRC rate as a function = of i.i.d. loss rate and RTT time attached (generated from the TFRC equatio= n ... the table is just easier to visualize). Perhaps this could suggest a heuristic for a flow ... look at the nominal R= TT (for something like a TCP flow) .. and then determine a reasonable worst= -case delay for the TCP ACKs. You heard it first here. Michael PS - Qualcomm (I believe, and others) have technology that "aggregates pack= ets" on the mobile when the mobile is in the "not-presently-active/in-use" = mode (I forget the exact term they use for that state). Thus they primarily= conserve battery by limiting the time the radio functionality needs to be = on by aggregating time-insensitive data requests. From: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J= ose Saldana Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:07 AM To: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi, Tomaso. Your idea is interesting. My opinion: - TCMTF can reduce pps (and consequently energy) in routers and other inter= mediate nodes, since in that place we can find a lot of flows to be multipl= exed together. - Regarding the battery of a mobile phone, I don't see the savings so strai= ghtforward, since the number of flows is smaller. And you cannot put togeth= er a number of packets belonging to the same real-time flow without annoyin= g the user. One case I found some days ago: I was downloading a big file wi= th a laptop connected via Wi-Fi to a DSL, and I captured the traffic with = Wireshark. I found that my laptop was sending 125 ACKs per second!. If we p= ut a number of ACKs together (they can be compressed: same origin and desti= nation, same ports, etc), we can reduce the number of pps, and also bandwid= th. However, we should be careful with TCP timeouts and so on. Perhaps we could think about other savings in terminals: e.g., sensor netwo= rks? Best regards, Jose De: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de [mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de] Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 22:19 Para: jsaldana@unizar.es CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr Asunto: RE: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi Jose, If I'm not wrong IETF is also interested in energy saving issues (e.g., ema= n, roll WGs). I think that in our case it is also important to figure out w= hether we are talking about battery consumption on mobile devices, sensor n= odes, etc. or on the power usage in routers and other intermediate nodes, w= hich is a topic largely addressed in the field of green networking. This di= fferentiation can be clarified according to the specific scenarios we are a= ddressing, so that we can highlight whether tcmtf concepts are more benefic= ial for the end-nodes or for the network infrastructure. If the latter is t= he case, probably network operators like Telefonica and device manifacturer= s like Cisco (who both already contributed to the discussion in this list) = can further motivate the need for a standard (or more than one). Regards, Tomaso ------------------------ Deutsches Zentrum f=FCr Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR) German Aerospace Center Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaff= enhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D. Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 | tomaso.decola@dlr.de= http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san From: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Saldana Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 10:58 AM To: 'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6' Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi, Mirko. The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting more and= more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only European Commission, = but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the duration of the battery i= s critical there. For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket Reque= st Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM reduces smart = phone signaling traffic by bundling application requests and intelligently = delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling reduction and also impro= ves stand-by time." http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-managing-backgrou= nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The benefits = of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: 1- Bandwidth saving 2- PPS reduction 3- Energy savings What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? Best regards, Jose De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bou= nces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hello everybody, Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is= to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way= that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort = to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits the solvin= g of our problem might bring. We more or less covered the network aspects o= f the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notio= n of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certa= in would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for= the European Commission. Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM To: tcmtf@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme Hi all. According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 201= 3-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Direc= tors. So we still have a month. we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser = presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for = standardization. So we could follow this structure: 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardiza= tion 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay requirements, c= lassification methods, etc. Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one of = the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he knows= the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very= beginning. I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. What do you think? Any ideas? Thanks a lot and best regards!, Jose --_000_D21571530BF9644D9A443D6BD95B910315559B57xmbrcdx12ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jose,

Re: 125 ACKs per secon= d is an ACK every 8 ms or so for your laptop.

Got to be careful when= you want to compress/aggregate them … for example …=

1) If the flow has a l= ong RTT (excluding any RTT increase due to aggregation/delay of some ACKs) = … something like 200 ms RTT … you can aggregate up to 50 ms wor= th of them with little decrease in maximum transfer BW.

2) Conversely, if the = flow has a short RTT (sub ~70 ms) … you can lose up to HALF the maxim= um transfer BW by delaying ACKs by 25ms (on average).

Pick a background pack= et loss rate and look at the TFRC rate as a function of i.i.d. loss rate&nb= sp; and RTT time attached (generated from the TFRC equation … the tab= le is just easier to visualize).

Perhaps this could sug= gest a heuristic for a flow … look at the nominal RTT (for something = like a TCP flow) .. and then determine a reasonable worst-case delay for th= e TCP ACKs. You heard it first here.

Michael

PS – Qualcomm (I= believe, and others) have technology that “aggregates packets”= on the mobile when the mobile is in the “not-presently-active/in-use= ” mode (I forget the exact term they use for that state). Thus they primarily conserve battery by limiting the time the radio functionali= ty needs to be on by aggregating time-insensitive data requests.=

From: tcmtf-bo= unces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Saldana
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:07 AM
To: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de
Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6
Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi, Tomaso= . Your idea is interesting. My opinion:

- TCMTF can reduce pps= (and consequently energy) in routers and other intermediate nodes, since i= n that place we can find a lot of flows to be multiplexed together.

- Regarding the batter= y of a mobile phone, I don’t see the savings so straightforward, sinc= e the number of flows is smaller. And you cannot put together a number of p= ackets belonging to the same real-time flow without annoying the user. One case I found some days ago: I was downloadi= ng a big file with a laptop connected via Wi-Fi to a DSL, and I captu= red the traffic with Wireshark. I found that my laptop was sending 125 ACKs= per second!. If we put a number of ACKs together (they can be compressed: same origin and destination, same ports,= etc), we can reduce the number of pps, and also bandwidth. However, we sho= uld be careful with TCP timeouts and so on.

Perhaps we could think= about other savings in terminals: e.g., sensor networks?=

Best regards,

Jose=

De: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de [mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de]
Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 22:19
Para: jsaldana@unizar.es
CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr
Asunto: RE: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi Jose,

If I’m not wrong= IETF is also interested in energy saving issues (e.g., eman, roll WGs). I = think that in our case it is also important to figure out whether we are ta= lking about battery consumption on mobile devices, sensor nodes, etc. or on the power usage in routers and other int= ermediate nodes, which is a topic largely addressed in the field of green n= etworking. This differentiation can be clarified according to the specific = scenarios we are addressing, so that we can highlight whether tcmtf concepts are more beneficial for the e= nd-nodes or for the network infrastructure. If the latter is the case, prob= ably network operators like Telefonica and device manifacturers like Cisco = (who both already contributed to the discussion in this list) can further motivate the need for a standard = (or more than one).

Regards,

Tomaso

——————= ;——————————R= 12;———————
Deutsches Zentrum f=FCr Luft- und Raumfa= hrt (DLR)
German Aerospace Center
Institute of Communications and Navigation = | Satellite Networks | Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany

Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.
Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | = Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 | tomaso.decola@dlr.de
http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/= san

From: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Saldana
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 10:58 AM
To: 'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'
Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme=

Hi, Mirko.=

The idea of energy sav= ings is also interesting. People are getting more and more concerned with t= he energy consumption. Not only European Commission, but also smartphone an= d tablet manufacturers: the duration of the battery is critical there.

For example, “Qu= alcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket Request Manager (NSRM= ) for efficient application management. NSRM reduces smart phone signaling = traffic by bundling application requests and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling reduction= and also improves stand-by time.”

http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualc= omm-research-managing-background-data-traffic-mobile-devices

Perhaps we could also = include this idea in the presentations. The benefits of packet grouping are= 3 instead of 2:

1- Bandwidth saving

2- PPS reduction

3- Energy savings

What do you think? Wil= l people at the IETF like energy savings?

Best regards,

Jose=

De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic
Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme<= o:p>

Hello e= verybody,

Well I = concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is to wel= l formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way that t= he problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must presen= t all the benefits the solving of our problem might bring. We more or= less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously= not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not c= ertain would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting= for the European Commission.

Ofcours= e I will create the presentation regarding my part.    =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;

Cheers!=

Mirko S= uznjevic

<= /span>

<= /span>

From: Jose Saldana [m= ailto:jsaldana@unizar.es]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM
To: tcmtf@ietf.org
Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6
Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme<= /p>

Hi all.

According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (= Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So = we still have a month.

we could discuss a bit the poss= ible scheme for the BoF proposal.

According to Martin’s sug= gestion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation describing w= hat the exact issues are and what is the need for standardization.

So we could follow this structu= re:

1- Teaser presentation: describ= ing the problem and the need for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be gen= erated within this potential WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the curr= ent TCMTF proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the cont= ent of the draft about delay requirements, classification methods, etc.

Dan Wing could be in charge of = (1). This would be good, since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC= we should “update” with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. I= n addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very beginning.

I could be in charge of (2), ma= inly explaining the charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica= could be in charge of (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (= 4), since he is the first author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best regards!,=

Jose

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required=5 tests=[AWL=0.290, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nyn6b6LXkGAK for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 01:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isuela.unizar.es (isuela.unizar.es [155.210.1.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF72621F852A for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 01:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by isuela.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4H89gbn026738; Fri, 17 May 2013 10:09:47 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "'Michael Ramalho $mramalho$'" Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 10:09:51 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <00bc01ce52d5$eb3bce80$c1b36b80$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE52E6.AEC73690" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac5S1brQk+luw8gKSiSkAqXC8QSi/A== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, =?utf-8?Q?Manuel_N=C3=BA=C3=B1ez_Sanz?= , Fernando Pascual Blanco , Juan Antonio Castell Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Multiplexing ACKs X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 08:10:01 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE52E6.AEC73690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael, =20 Thanks a lot. It is clear that grouping packets in a single device = (scenario 2) is less straightforward than doing it in a network with a = lot of flows (scenario 1). Two thoughts: =20 - Scenario 1 (network with a lot of flows): If I am a network provider, = and I am able to identify in my aggregation network 50 ACK flows of 100 = pps (corresponding to 50 concurrent file downloads), I can take one ACK = from each flow, adding an average delay of 5 ms (I receive a packet = every 10ms, so packets will be delayed from 0 to 10ms). So this would = still be possible. And the bandwidth savings would be really high: I can = easily compress from 40 to e.g., 6 or 8 bytes. =20 - Scenario 2 (a single device): As you say, a small increase of the RTT = can significantly reduce the throughput if TCP-Friendly Rate Control is = being used. However, is it widely used? In addition, in Draft B we are = considering the idea of taking into account the RTT, in order to set the = best value to multiplexing period. This is exactly what you say: =20 =E2=80=9Clook at the nominal RTT (for something like a TCP flow) .. and = then determine a reasonable worst-case delay for the TCP ACKs.=E2=80=9D =20 =20 Any idea from Telefonica? Do you think multiplexing ACKs is interesting? =20 Thanks! =20 Jose =20 De: Michael Ramalho (mramalho) [mailto:mramalho@cisco.com]=20 Enviado el: jueves, 16 de mayo de 2013 16:18 Para: jsaldana@unizar.es; Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevi=C4=87 Asunto: RE: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi Jose, =20 Re: 125 ACKs per second is an ACK every 8 ms or so for your laptop. =20 Got to be careful when you want to compress/aggregate them =E2=80=A6 for = example =E2=80=A6 =20 1) If the flow has a long RTT (excluding any RTT increase due to = aggregation/delay of some ACKs) =E2=80=A6 something like 200 ms RTT = =E2=80=A6 you can aggregate up to 50 ms worth of them with little = decrease in maximum transfer BW. =20 2) Conversely, if the flow has a short RTT (sub ~70 ms) =E2=80=A6 you = can lose up to HALF the maximum transfer BW by delaying ACKs by 25ms (on = average). =20 Pick a background packet loss rate and look at the TFRC rate as a = function of i.i.d. loss rate and RTT time attached (generated from the = TFRC equation =E2=80=A6 the table is just easier to visualize). =20 Perhaps this could suggest a heuristic for a flow =E2=80=A6 look at the = nominal RTT (for something like a TCP flow) .. and then determine a = reasonable worst-case delay for the TCP ACKs. You heard it first here. =20 Michael =20 PS =E2=80=93 Qualcomm (I believe, and others) have technology that = =E2=80=9Caggregates packets=E2=80=9D on the mobile when the mobile is in = the =E2=80=9Cnot-presently-active/in-use=E2=80=9D mode (I forget the = exact term they use for that state). Thus they primarily conserve = battery by limiting the time the radio functionality needs to be on by = aggregating time-insensitive data requests. =20 From: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Jose Saldana Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:07 AM To: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevi=C4=87 Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi, Tomaso. Your idea is interesting. My opinion: =20 - TCMTF can reduce pps (and consequently energy) in routers and other = intermediate nodes, since in that place we can find a lot of flows to be = multiplexed together. =20 - Regarding the battery of a mobile phone, I don=E2=80=99t see the = savings so straightforward, since the number of flows is smaller. And = you cannot put together a number of packets belonging to the same = real-time flow without annoying the user. One case I found some days = ago: I was downloading a big file with a laptop connected via Wi-Fi to = a DSL, and I captured the traffic with Wireshark. I found that my laptop = was sending 125 ACKs per second!. If we put a number of ACKs together = (they can be compressed: same origin and destination, same ports, etc), = we can reduce the number of pps, and also bandwidth. However, we should = be careful with TCP timeouts and so on. =20 Perhaps we could think about other savings in terminals: e.g., sensor = networks? =20 Best regards, =20 Jose =20 De: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de [mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de]=20 Enviado el: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 22:19 Para: jsaldana@unizar.es CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr Asunto: RE: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi Jose, =20 If I=E2=80=99m not wrong IETF is also interested in energy saving issues = (e.g., eman, roll WGs). I think that in our case it is also important to = figure out whether we are talking about battery consumption on mobile = devices, sensor nodes, etc. or on the power usage in routers and other = intermediate nodes, which is a topic largely addressed in the field of = green networking. This differentiation can be clarified according to the = specific scenarios we are addressing, so that we can highlight whether = tcmtf concepts are more beneficial for the end-nodes or for the network = infrastructure. If the latter is the case, probably network operators = like Telefonica and device manifacturers like Cisco (who both already = contributed to the discussion in this list) can further motivate the = need for a standard (or more than one). =20 Regards, =20 Tomaso =20 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2= =80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80= =94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=20 Deutsches Zentrum f=C3=BCr Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR)=20 German Aerospace Center=20 Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | = Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany=20 Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.=20 Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 | = tomaso.decola@dlr.de=20 = http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san=20 =20 From: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Jose Saldana Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 10:58 AM To: 'Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevi=C4=87' Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi, Mirko. =20 The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting more = and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only European = Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the duration = of the battery is critical there. =20 For example, =E2=80=9CQualcomm has developed a solution called Network = Socket Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM = reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application requests = and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling = reduction and also improves stand-by time.=E2=80=9D = = http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-managing-backgr= ound-data-traffic-mobile-devices =20 Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The = benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: =20 1- Bandwidth saving 2- PPS reduction 3- Energy savings =20 What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? =20 Best regards, =20 Jose =20 De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de = Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hello everybody, Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do = is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a = coherent way that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth = putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must present all the = benefits the solving of our problem might bring. We more or less = covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously = not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings which TCMTF = implementation might bring. I am not certain would such topics be = interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for the European = Commission. Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. = =20 Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic =20 =20 From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es]=20 Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM To: tcmtf@ietf.org Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevi=C4=87 Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi all. =20 According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, = 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area = Directors. So we still have a month. =20 we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. =20 According to Martin=E2=80=99s suggestion, we could begin the session = with a teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what = is the need for standardization. =20 So we could follow this structure: =20 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for = standardization =20 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG =20 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal =20 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc. =20 =20 Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one = of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should =E2=80=9Cupdate=E2=80=9D = with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in = the TCMTF draft from the very beginning. =20 I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. =20 Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). =20 Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. =20 =20 =20 What do you think? Any ideas? =20 Thanks a lot and best regards!, =20 Jose=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE52E6.AEC73690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Michael,

Thanks a = lot. It is clear that grouping packets in a single device (scenario 2) = is less straightforward than doing it in a network with a lot of flows = (scenario 1). Two thoughts:

- Scenario = 1 (network with a lot of flows): If I am a network provider, and I am = able to identify in my aggregation network 50 ACK flows of 100 pps = (corresponding to 50 concurrent file downloads), I can take one ACK from = each flow, adding an average delay of 5 ms (I receive a packet every = 10ms, so packets will be delayed from 0 to 10ms). So this would still be = possible. And the bandwidth savings would be really high: I can easily = compress from 40 to e.g., 6 or 8 bytes.

- Scenario = 2 (a single device): As you say, a small increase of the RTT can = significantly reduce the throughput if TCP-Friendly Rate Control is = being used. However, is it widely used? In addition, in Draft B we are = considering the idea of taking into account the RTT, in order to set the = best value to multiplexing period. This is exactly what you = say:

=E2=80=9Clook at the nominal RTT (for something like a = TCP flow) .. and then determine a reasonable worst-case delay for the = TCP ACKs.=E2=80=9D

Any idea = from Telefonica? Do you think multiplexing ACKs is = interesting?

Thanks!

Jose

De: = Michael Ramalho (mramalho) [mailto:mramalho@cisco.com]
Enviado = el: jueves, 16 de mayo de 2013 16:18
Para: = jsaldana@unizar.es; Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de
CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; = Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevi=C4=87
Asunto: RE: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for = Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi Jose,

Re: 125 = ACKs per second is an ACK every 8 ms or so for your = laptop.

Got to be = careful when you want to compress/aggregate them =E2=80=A6 for example = =E2=80=A6

1) If the = flow has a long RTT (excluding any RTT increase due to aggregation/delay = of some ACKs) =E2=80=A6 something like 200 ms RTT =E2=80=A6 you can = aggregate up to 50 ms worth of them with little decrease in maximum = transfer BW.

2) = Conversely, if the flow has a short RTT (sub ~70 ms) =E2=80=A6 you can = lose up to HALF the maximum transfer BW by delaying ACKs by 25ms (on = average).

Pick a = background packet loss rate and look at the TFRC rate as a function of = i.i.d. loss rate and RTT time attached (generated from the TFRC = equation =E2=80=A6 the table is just easier to = visualize).

Perhaps = this could suggest a heuristic for a flow =E2=80=A6 look at the nominal = RTT (for something like a TCP flow) .. and then determine a reasonable = worst-case delay for the TCP ACKs. You heard it first = here.

Michael

PS = =E2=80=93 Qualcomm (I believe, and others) have technology that = =E2=80=9Caggregates packets=E2=80=9D on the mobile when the mobile is in = the =E2=80=9Cnot-presently-active/in-use=E2=80=9D mode (I forget the = exact term they use for that state). Thus they primarily conserve = battery by limiting the time the radio functionality needs to be on by = aggregating time-insensitive data requests.

From:= tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Jose Saldana
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 = 4:07 AM
To: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de
Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko = Su=C5=BEnjevi=C4=87
Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for = Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi, Tomaso. Your idea is = interesting. My = opinion:

- TCMTF can = reduce pps (and consequently energy) in routers and other intermediate = nodes, since in that place we can find a lot of flows to be multiplexed = together.

- Regarding = the battery of a mobile phone, I don=E2=80=99t see the savings so = straightforward, since the number of flows is smaller. And you cannot = put together a number of packets belonging to the same real-time flow = without annoying the user. One case I found some days ago: I was = downloading a big file with a laptop connected via Wi-Fi to a DSL, = and I captured the traffic with Wireshark. I found that my laptop was = sending 125 ACKs per second!. If we put a number of ACKs together (they = can be compressed: same origin and destination, same ports, etc), we can = reduce the number of pps, and also bandwidth. However, we should be = careful with TCP timeouts and so on.

Perhaps we = could think about other savings in terminals: e.g., sensor = networks?

Best = regards,

Jose

De: Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de [mailto:Tomaso.deCola@dlr.de] =
Enviado el: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 = 22:19
Para: jsaldana@unizar.es
CC: = tcmtf@ietf.org; Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr
A= sunto: RE: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible = scheme

Hi Jose,

If I=E2=80=99m not wrong IETF is = also interested in energy saving issues (e.g., eman, roll WGs). I think = that in our case it is also important to figure out whether we are = talking about battery consumption on mobile devices, sensor nodes, etc. = or on the power usage in routers and other intermediate nodes, which is = a topic largely addressed in the field of green networking. This = differentiation can be clarified according to the specific scenarios we = are addressing, so that we can highlight whether tcmtf concepts are more = beneficial for the end-nodes or for the network infrastructure. If the = latter is the case, probably network operators like Telefonica and = device manifacturers like Cisco (who both already contributed to the = discussion in this list) can further motivate the need for a standard = (or more than one).

Regards,

Tomaso

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94= =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2= =80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94
Deutsches Zentrum f=C3=BCr Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR)
German Aerospace Center
Institute of Communications and Navigation | Satellite Networks | = Oberpfaffenhofen | 82234 Wessling | Germany
Tomaso de Cola, Ph.D.
Telefon +49 8153 28-2156 | Telefax +49 8153 28-2844 | tomaso.decola= @dlr.de =
http://www.dlr.de/kn/institut/abteilungen/san=

From:= tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Jose Saldana
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, = 2013 10:58 AM
To: 'Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevi=C4=87'
Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi, Mirko.

The idea of energy savings is also = interesting. People are getting more and more concerned with the energy = consumption. Not only European Commission, but also smartphone and = tablet manufacturers: the duration of the battery is critical = there.

For example, =E2=80=9CQualcomm has = developed a solution called Network Socket Request Manager (NSRM) for = efficient application management. NSRM reduces smart phone signaling = traffic by bundling application requests and intelligently delaying = them. NSRM provides significant signaling reduction and also improves = stand-by time.=E2=80=9D
http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research-ma= naging-background-data-traffic-mobile-devices

Perhaps we could also include this = idea in the presentations. The benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead = of 2:

1- Bandwidth saving
2- PPS reduction
3- Energy savings

What do you think? Will people at = the IETF like energy savings?

Best regards,

Jose

De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org]= En nombre de Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevic
Enviado el: martes, = 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: = [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hello = everybody,
Well I = concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to do is to = well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a coherent way = that the problem we are addressing here is a problem worth putting = effort to and worth solving. In short we must present all the benefits = the solving of our problem might bring. We more or less covered = the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the previously not = emphasized things is the notion of energy savings which TCMTF = implementation might bring. I am not certain would such topics be = interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for the European = Commission.
Ofcourse I = will create the presentation regarding my = part.           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             =
Cheers!
Mirko Suznjevic

From:= Jose = Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] =
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM
To: tcmtf@ietf.org
Cc: Martin = Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=C5=BEnjevi=C4=87
Subject: BoF = proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme

Hi all.

According to http:/= /www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 = (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. = So we still have a month.

we could discuss a bit the possible = scheme for the BoF proposal.

According to Martin=E2=80=99s = suggestion, we could begin the session with a teaser presentation = describing what the exact issues are and what is the need for = standardization.

So we could follow this structure:

1- Teaser presentation: describing = the problem and the need for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be = generated within this potential WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the current = TCMTF proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc.

Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, = since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should = =E2=80=9Cupdate=E2=80=9D with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. In = addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very = beginning.

I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the = charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of = (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first = author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best = regards!,

Jose

<= /html> ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE52E6.AEC73690-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Fri May 17 01:14:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB91821F8411 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 01:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.356 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.356 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.242, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nwHrYcL-ZiEw for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 01:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A965021F8AF4 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 01:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4H8Dp6g029907 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 10:13:51 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 10:13:59 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <00d601ce52d6$7bd5a100$7380e300$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D7_01CE52E7.3F5EE630" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac5S1lWzcyqRiylAQWmSzwDvpDBjpg== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Subject: [tcmtf] Showing the interest of the Industry on TCMTF X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 08:14:04 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01CE52E7.3F5EE630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Gorry raised this question: we have to show the interest of the Industry on the standardization of TCMTF. Some Cisco devices implement similar (proprietary) multiplexing schemes, mainly with the idea of saving pps in VoIP for pps-constrained links (e.g. satellites): http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/gov/data_sheet_c78-697643_v1.pdf http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/gov/aag_c45-697642_v2.pdf So an IETF standard would be interesting for - interoperating with other manufacturers' devices. - defining a standard way for multiplexing non-RTP flows Best regards, Jose ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01CE52E7.3F5EE630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Gorry raised this question: we have to show the interest of = the Industry on the standardization of TCMTF.

Some Cisco devices implement = similar (proprietary) multiplexing schemes, mainly with the idea of = saving pps in VoIP for pps-constrained links (e.g. = satellites):
          =       http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/gov/data_sheet_c78-697643_= v1.pdf
          =       http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/gov/aag_c45-697642_v2.pdf

So an IETF standard would be interesting = for
- = interoperating with other manufacturers’ = devices.
- = defining a standard way for multiplexing non-RTP = flows

Best regards,

Jose

------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01CE52E7.3F5EE630-- From gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri May 17 07:16:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FB121F89A5 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 07:16:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id koU4XZh+r59L for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 07:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96F221F8895 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 07:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.erg.abdn.ac.uk (blake.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.210.30]) by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 004662B425D; Fri, 17 May 2013 15:16:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from 212.159.18.54 (SquirrelMail authenticated user gorry) by www.erg.abdn.ac.uk with HTTP; Fri, 17 May 2013 15:16:28 +0100 Message-ID: <2435bab48b986c6415dc7a16b676cd80.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <00d601ce52d6$7bd5a100$7380e300$@unizar.es> References: <00d601ce52d6$7bd5a100$7380e300$@unizar.es> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 15:16:28 +0100 From: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk To: jsaldana@unizar.es User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Showing the interest of the Industry on TCMTF X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 14:16:34 -0000 That's interesting to discuss the existing vendor specs. So, if (for example CISCO) is able to invest energy in writing and implementing the spec - it could be useful to know who else also wants interoperability with a new Spec? Gorry > Hi all, > > Gorry raised this question: we have to show the interest of the Industry > on the standardization of TCMTF. > > Some Cisco devices implement similar (proprietary) multiplexing schemes, > mainly with the idea of saving pps in VoIP for pps-constrained links (e.g. > satellites): > > > http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/gov/data_sheet_c78-697643_v1.pdf > > > http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/gov/aag_c45-697642_v2.pdf > > > > So an IETF standard would be interesting for > > - interoperating with other manufacturers' devices. > > - defining a standard way for multiplexing non-RTP flows > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jose > > > > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > From gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri May 17 07:16:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B382C21F8895 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 07:16:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nixRKP3HukEU for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 07:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B3A21F896B for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 07:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.erg.abdn.ac.uk (blake.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.210.30]) by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 80C7E2B44A7; Fri, 17 May 2013 15:16:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from 212.159.18.54 (SquirrelMail authenticated user gorry) by www.erg.abdn.ac.uk with HTTP; Fri, 17 May 2013 15:16:29 +0100 Message-ID: <611de400a979a43b57417b2c1ecf3945.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <00d601ce52d6$7bd5a100$7380e300$@unizar.es> References: <00d601ce52d6$7bd5a100$7380e300$@unizar.es> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 15:16:29 +0100 From: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk To: jsaldana@unizar.es User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Showing the interest of the Industry on TCMTF X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 14:16:36 -0000 That's interesting to discuss the existing vendor specs. So, if (for example CISCO) is able to invest energy in writing and implementing the spec - it could be useful to know who else also wants interoperability with a new Spec? Gorry > Hi all, > > Gorry raised this question: we have to show the interest of the Industry > on the standardization of TCMTF. > > Some Cisco devices implement similar (proprietary) multiplexing schemes, > mainly with the idea of saving pps in VoIP for pps-constrained links (e.g. > satellites): > > > http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/gov/data_sheet_c78-697643_v1.pdf > > > http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/gov/aag_c45-697642_v2.pdf > > > > So an IETF standard would be interesting for > > - interoperating with other manufacturers' devices. > > - defining a standard way for multiplexing non-RTP flows > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jose > > > > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > From fpb@tid.es Mon May 20 02:31:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A8A21F919D for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 02:31:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.150, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSHct5X86TVq for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 02:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from correo-bck.tid.es (correo-bck.tid.es [195.235.93.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1EE21F90F1 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 02:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Sbrightmailg02.hi.inet [10.95.78.105]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MN300D6M8IYS0@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Mon, 20 May 2013 10:20:58 +0200 (MEST) Received: from vanvan (vanvan.hi.inet [10.95.78.49]) by sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 7D.7B.02845.9ECD9915; Mon, 20 May 2013 10:20:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MN3003WW8IXLJ@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Mon, 20 May 2013 10:20:57 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.38]) by EX10-HTCAS7-MAD.hi.inet ([::1]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Mon, 20 May 2013 10:20:57 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 08:20:56 +0000 From: FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO In-reply-to: <00bc01ce52d5$eb3bce80$c1b36b80$@unizar.es> X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: "jsaldana@unizar.es" , "'Michael Ramalho (mramalho)'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_YU4DQ7ozgMuMQnWxluNIUQ)" Content-language: en-US Accept-Language: en-US, es-ES Thread-topic: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Multiplexing ACKs Thread-index: Ac5S1brQk+luw8gKSiSkAqXC8QSi/ACXTiMA user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.2.130206 X-AuditID: 0a5f4e69-b7fb26d000000b1d-01-5199dce98ec0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFe9nqPvqzsxAg6bJLBa7Pm9gdGD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxsuJf1kKnhxjrrhz8S1jA+PPXcxdjJwcEgImEnvmboKyxSQu 3FvP1sXIxSEksJ1R4s/xTlYI5yejxM+3F1kgnGmMEms/H2QEaWERUJXofPqUHcRmE9CSOH13 FQuILSxgL/Hm9GYmEJtTwEJi+7pWdogVChJ/zj0GqxERSJFYfXk62FBmgTZGie7tM8ESvALe EhOut7JC2IISPybfA4szC+RK7HzUxAphi0s0t94EizMKyEq8mz+fFWKog8SRzrnsELaRxKxv N9hAbFEBPYmbZ1pYIY4QkFiy5zzUz6ISLx//Y53AKDYLybpZSNbNQrJuFiMHkK0psX6XPkRY UWJK90N2CFtDonXOXCjbTKLz5jVWZDULGDlWMYoVJxVlpmeU5CZm5qQbGOllZOpl5qWWbGKE RGXmDsblO1UOMQpwMCrx8F64URsoxJpYVlyZe4hRgoNZSYQ3untmoBBvSmJlVWpRfnxRaU5q 8SFGJg5OqQZG1Xdbmw6emfdMPFdAouR62q+pymE1L9cLRApanLFccldg3TT5kILfNxI/2588 M5/p7IGisJO8T2vWTHXdmTRdWHSKyYsrjp46hmlfbhZrsWn3xkuwKR1rr/v5821bS0dkAd/+ j2ckzKSrhQJnOv/Ve7mEe4Hl7w0yuQKFj96bJ4cfZviyyX2eEktxRqKhFnNRcSIA+MdRuagC AAA= Cc: "tcmtf@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?TUFOVUVMIE5Vw5FFWiBTQU5a?= , JUAN ANTONIO CASTELL LUCIA Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Multiplexing ACKs X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 09:31:27 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_YU4DQ7ozgMuMQnWxluNIUQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 SGkgSm9zZSwNCg0KT2YgY291cnNlIG11bHRpcGxleGluZyBBQ0tzIGlzIHZlcnkgaW50ZXJlc3Rp bmcgc2luY2UgaXMgdGhlIHdvcnN0IGNhc2UgcmVnYXJkaW5nIHRoZSBoZWFkZXIvcGF5bG9hZCBy YXRpby4gTmV2ZXJ0aGVsZXNzLCBhcyBzYWlkIGJlZm9yZSwgaXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGRvbmUgdmVy eSBjYXJlZnVsbHkgYmVjYXVzZSBvZiB0aGUgVENQIGNvbmdlc3Rpb24gY29udHJvbCBhbGdvcml0 aG1zLiBPZiBjb3Vyc2UsIEkgdGhpbmsgb25seSBTY2VuYXJpbyAxIGNvdWxkIGJlIGNvbnNpZGVy ZWQgKE5ldHdvcmsgQWdncmVnYXRpb24pLiBJbiB5b3VyIGV4YW1wbGUsIGhhdmluZyA1MCBmbG93 cyB3aXRoIDEwMCBBQ0tzIHBlciBzZWNvbmQgZWFjaCBvbmUsIHlvdSBoYXZlIGFuIEFDSyBldmVy 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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.391 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.391 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.208, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y-PUwq2oQX7f for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 03:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isuela.unizar.es (isuela.unizar.es [155.210.1.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A8221F91BF for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 03:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by isuela.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4KA1TK0032739 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 12:01:30 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 12:01:33 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <008701ce5541$01fff570$05ffe050$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac5SB9JAJClR1cmJTV26+RPv87+DPw== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of the Industry X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 10:01:40 -0000 Another idea we should include in the first presentation (why do we need = to standardize TCMTF) is this: - A standard already exists (RFC4170), written by three people from = Cisco in 2005. - However, this standard only considers a single option at each layer: - ECRTP for header compression, so only services based on RTP are considered - PPPMux for multiplexing - L2TP for tunneling - From 2005 to now: - a significant effort has been devoted in the IETF for standardizing ROHC (which performs better than ECRTP in many scenarios) - a lot of applications generating long-term flows with high rates of non-RTP small packets have emerged - So why not widening TCRTP=92s scope in order to: - Allow other traffics different from RTP - Allow these new developed header compression techniques Do you find this coherent? Jose > -----Mensaje original----- > De: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] > Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 11:10 > Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > CC: "'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'"; tcmtf@ietf.org > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme >=20 > My guess is that many people at the IETF would "like" to see people = say they > plan to implement for a product, or that they plan to devote = significant effort > to seeing the standard matches their need for a particular use case = (e.g. > operators or equipment vendors). This can be a strong indication that there is > a need for a standard. This can be in a slide, or at the Mic or on = the list, slides, > etc... >=20 > If it's just researchers wanting toi agree a spec that may also be OK, = but then > it could be an IRTF activity that comes up with an experimental spec = for > people to evaluate. >=20 > Gorry >=20 > > Hi, Mirko. > > > > > > > > The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting > > more and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only > European > > Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the = duration > > of the battery is critical there. > > > > > > > > For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network = Socket > > Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM > > reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application = requests > > and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling > > reduction and also improves stand-by time." > > > > > > managing-ba > > ckgrou > > nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices> > > http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research- > managing-bac > > kgroun > > d-data-traffic-mobile-devices > > > > > > > > Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The > > benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: > > > > > > > > 1- Bandwidth saving > > > > 2- PPS reduction > > > > 3- Energy savings > > > > > > > > What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Jose > > > > > > > > De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre > > de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 > > Para: tcmtf@ietf.org > > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > > > > > > > Hello everybody, > > > > Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is = to > > do is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a > > coherent way that the problem we are addressing here is a problem > > worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must present > > all the benefits the solving of our problem might bring. We more or > > less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the > > previously not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings = which > > TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certain would such = topics > > be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for the European > > Commission. > > > > Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > Mirko Suznjevic > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM > > To: tcmtf@ietf.org > > Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 > > Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > > > > > > > Hi all. > > > > > > > > According to > > http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, > > 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to > > Area Directors. So we still have a month. > > > > > > > > we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. > > > > > > > > According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a > > teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is > > the need for standardization. > > > > > > > > So we could follow this structure: > > > > > > > > 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for > > standardization > > > > > > > > 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG > > > > > > > > 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal > > > > > > > > 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay > > requirements, classification methods, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is > > one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with = TCMTF), > > so he knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF > > draft from the very beginning. > > > > > > > > I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. > > > > > > > > Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). > > > > > > > > Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think? Any ideas? > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot and best regards!, > > > > > > > > Jose > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tcmtf mailing list > > tcmtf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > > From diego@tid.es Mon May 20 04:08:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9D721F9195 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 04:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.501, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nJUZVK3fbHCe for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 04:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tidos.tid.es (tidos.tid.es [195.235.93.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF2C21F91AB for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 04:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbrightmailg01.hi.inet (sbrightmailg01.hi.inet [10.95.64.104]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MN3003B8G8MUY@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Mon, 20 May 2013 13:07:34 +0200 (MEST) Received: from tid (tid.hi.inet [10.95.64.10]) by sbrightmailg01.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 12.40.01293.6F30A915; Mon, 20 May 2013 13:07:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MN3003BQG8MUJ@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Mon, 20 May 2013 13:07:34 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.38]) by EX10-HTCAS8-MAD.hi.inet ([fe80::41c8:e965:8a6:de67%11]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Mon, 20 May 2013 13:07:34 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 11:07:33 +0000 From: "Diego R. Lopez" In-reply-to: <008701ce5541$01fff570$05ffe050$@unizar.es> X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: "" Message-id: Content-id: <50457770A50C724793F66BC419F0D817@hi.inet> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Accept-Language: en-US, es-ES Thread-topic: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of the Industry Thread-index: Ac5SB9JAJClR1cmJTV26+RPv87+DPwDMaRCA X-AuditID: 0a5f4068-b7f006d00000050d-0c-519a03f65057 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42Lhinfg0v3GPCvQ4F6XusWuzxsYHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVcXBjO2tBi2XF3Tv3mRsYN+p2MXJySAiYSNw7OJUdwhaTuHBv PVsXIxeHkMBGRomm2RtZIZwfjBK90/uhMhsYJRb+fcoE0sIioCqxavsNVhCbDch+1PwbbJSw QIjEtqZ9YHFOAQuJk2veM0OsUJD4c+4xC4gtIqAvceMxRD2zgLrEmn+b2EBsXgFvick3NzJC xM0kvhycAhUXlPgx+R4LRFxHovf7N2YIW1yiufUmVFxb4sm7C2B7GQVkJd7Nn88KsStUon3d E0YI20iiac9tNoh7BCSW7DkPdZuoxMvH/8DqhQTMJRq+n2CfwCgxC8kZs5CcMQvJGbOQnDEL yRkLGFlXMYoVJxVlpmeU5CZm5qQbGOplZOpl5qWWbGKERF7GDsblO1UOMQpwMCrx8F64URso xJpYVlyZe4hRgoNZSYQ3+vfMQCHelMTKqtSi/Pii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2MAZcLpKc59Ak+Dgxc /SPdL1E/turgeWulftX3Gr9fMdfF3uE9G27J/u6BV9JJD3Mj5aZ9J04fXZh3n6lvhcWnV/53 AvfUrcm3XLHUXjX4rNa2s1tKnwvLiDWkr9nksGJxqpN6YMnOHXWTs3aVMJeHGvyaxedjqJnN u+DwpyqPuX+SZ1w/YbdFiaU4I9FQi7moOBEAlSAQe5oCAAA= References: <008701ce5541$01fff570$05ffe050$@unizar.es> Cc: "" Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of the Industry X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 11:08:10 -0000 Hi Jose, So this would imply to review or obsolete RFC4170? An additional document t= o the list, isn't it? Be goode, On 20 May 2013, at 12:01 , Jose Saldana wrote: > Another idea we should include in the first presentation (why do we need = to > standardize TCMTF) is this: > > - A standard already exists (RFC4170), written by three people from Cisco= in > 2005. > > - However, this standard only considers a single option at each layer: > - ECRTP for header compression, so only services based on RTP are > considered > - PPPMux for multiplexing > - L2TP for tunneling > > - From 2005 to now: > - a significant effort has been devoted in the IETF for > standardizing ROHC (which performs better than ECRTP in many scenarios) > - a lot of applications generating long-term flows with high rates > of non-RTP small packets have emerged > > - So why not widening TCRTP's scope in order to: > - Allow other traffics different from RTP > - Allow these new developed header compression techniques > > Do you find this coherent? > > Jose > >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] >> Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 11:10 >> Para: jsaldana@unizar.es >> CC: "'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'"; tcmtf@ietf.org >> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme >> >> My guess is that many people at the IETF would "like" to see people say > they >> plan to implement for a product, or that they plan to devote significant > effort >> to seeing the standard matches their need for a particular use case (e.g= . >> operators or equipment vendors). This can be a strong indication that > there is >> a need for a standard. This can be in a slide, or at the Mic or on the > list, slides, >> etc... >> >> If it's just researchers wanting toi agree a spec that may also be OK, b= ut > then >> it could be an IRTF activity that comes up with an experimental spec for >> people to evaluate. >> >> Gorry >> >>> Hi, Mirko. >>> >>> >>> >>> The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting >>> more and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only >> European >>> Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the duration >>> of the battery is critical there. >>> >>> >>> >>> For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network Socket >>> Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. NSRM >>> reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application requests >>> and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides significant signaling >>> reduction and also improves stand-by time." >>> >>> >>> > managing-ba >>> ckgrou >>> nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices> >>> http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research- >> managing-bac >>> kgroun >>> d-data-traffic-mobile-devices >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The >>> benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1- Bandwidth saving >>> >>> 2- PPS reduction >>> >>> 3- Energy savings >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Jose >>> >>> >>> >>> De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre >>> de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 >>> Para: tcmtf@ietf.org >>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello everybody, >>> >>> Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is to >>> do is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove in a >>> coherent way that the problem we are addressing here is a problem >>> worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must present >>> all the benefits the solving of our problem might bring. We more or >>> less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the >>> previously not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings which >>> TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certain would such topics >>> be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for the European >>> Commission. >>> >>> Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. >>> >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Mirko Suznjevic >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] >>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM >>> To: tcmtf@ietf.org >>> Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 >>> Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all. >>> >>> >>> >>> According to >>> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, >>> 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to >>> Area Directors. So we still have a month. >>> >>> >>> >>> we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. >>> >>> >>> >>> According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a >>> teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is >>> the need for standardization. >>> >>> >>> >>> So we could follow this structure: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for >>> standardization >>> >>> >>> >>> 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG >>> >>> >>> >>> 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal >>> >>> >>> >>> 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay >>> requirements, classification methods, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is >>> one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), >>> so he knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF >>> draft from the very beginning. >>> >>> >>> >>> I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). >>> >>> >>> >>> Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you think? Any ideas? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks a lot and best regards!, >>> >>> >>> >>> Jose >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tcmtf mailing list >>> tcmtf@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf -- "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno" Dr Diego R. Lopez Telefonica I+D http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/ e-mail: diego@tid.es Tel: +34 913 129 041 Mobile: +34 682 051 091 ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at: http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon May 20 04:18:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E6A21F90D2 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 04:18:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.182, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id otZDEoHoFU2u for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 04:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isuela.unizar.es (isuela.unizar.es [155.210.1.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204C321F8749 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 04:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by isuela.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4KBIFTs013708; Mon, 20 May 2013 13:18:15 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "'Diego R. Lopez'" References: <008701ce5541$01fff570$05ffe050$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 13:18:19 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <00a001ce554b$bb79c170$326d4450$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQH2OFRef71bgWLsXTBK8TBgp6QZuQGXsBEMmLFnrAA= Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of the Industry X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 11:18:28 -0000 RFC4170 only considers ECRTP for header compression, which is older than ROHC. In that sense, RFC4170 needed an update from the moment ROHC was released. In addition, as long as the plan is "including" RFC4170 as one of the "branches" of TCMTF, I suppose it would be obsoleted. But I don't think we would have to rewrite it. If TCMTF includes it as = an option, do we need a specific document for multiplexing RTP VoIP flows? Jose > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Diego R. Lopez [mailto:diego@tid.es] > Enviado el: lunes, 20 de mayo de 2013 13:08 > Para: > CC: > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of = the > Industry >=20 > Hi Jose, >=20 > So this would imply to review or obsolete RFC4170? An additional = document > to the list, isn't it? >=20 > Be goode, >=20 > On 20 May 2013, at 12:01 , Jose Saldana wrote: >=20 > > Another idea we should include in the first presentation (why do we > > need to standardize TCMTF) is this: > > > > - A standard already exists (RFC4170), written by three people from > > Cisco in 2005. > > > > - However, this standard only considers a single option at each = layer: > > - ECRTP for header compression, so only services based on RTP > > are considered > > - PPPMux for multiplexing > > - L2TP for tunneling > > > > - From 2005 to now: > > - a significant effort has been devoted in the IETF for > > standardizing ROHC (which performs better than ECRTP in many = scenarios) > > - a lot of applications generating long-term flows with high > > rates of non-RTP small packets have emerged > > > > - So why not widening TCRTP's scope in order to: > > - Allow other traffics different from RTP > > - Allow these new developed header compression techniques > > > > Do you find this coherent? > > > > Jose > > > >> -----Mensaje original----- > >> De: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] Enviado el: > >> mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 11:10 > >> Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > >> CC: "'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'"; tcmtf@ietf.org > >> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > >> > >> My guess is that many people at the IETF would "like" to see people > >> say > > they > >> plan to implement for a product, or that they plan to devote > >> significant > > effort > >> to seeing the standard matches their need for a particular use case (e.g. > >> operators or equipment vendors). This can be a strong indication = that > > there is > >> a need for a standard. This can be in a slide, or at the Mic or on > >> the > > list, slides, > >> etc... > >> > >> If it's just researchers wanting toi agree a spec that may also be > >> OK, but > > then > >> it could be an IRTF activity that comes up with an experimental = spec > >> for people to evaluate. > >> > >> Gorry > >> > >>> Hi, Mirko. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting > >>> more and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only > >> European > >>> Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the > >>> duration of the battery is critical there. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network > >>> Socket Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application = management. > >>> NSRM reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application > >>> requests and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides = significant > >>> signaling reduction and also improves stand-by time." > >>> > >>> > >>> >> managing-ba > >>> ckgrou > >>> nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices> > >>> http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research- > >> managing-bac > >>> kgroun > >>> d-data-traffic-mobile-devices > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The > >>> benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 1- Bandwidth saving > >>> > >>> 2- PPS reduction > >>> > >>> 3- Energy savings > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Jose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En > nombre > >>> de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 > >>> Para: tcmtf@ietf.org > >>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Hello everybody, > >>> > >>> Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is > >>> to do is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove = in > >>> a coherent way that the problem we are addressing here is a = problem > >>> worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we must = present > >>> all the benefits the solving of our problem might bring. We more = or > >>> less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. Maybe one of the > >>> previously not emphasized things is the notion of energy savings > >>> which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not certain would = such > >>> topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was interesting for the > >>> European Commission. > >>> > >>> Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. > >>> > >>> > >>> Cheers! > >>> > >>> Mirko Suznjevic > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] > >>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM > >>> To: tcmtf@ietf.org > >>> Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 > >>> Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi all. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to > >>> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, > >>> 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests = to > >>> Area Directors. So we still have a month. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with = a > >>> teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what = is > >>> the need for standardization. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> So we could follow this structure: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for > >>> standardization > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay > >>> requirements, classification methods, etc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he = is > >>> one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with > >>> TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in = the > >>> TCMTF draft from the very beginning. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> What do you think? Any ideas? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks a lot and best regards!, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Jose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> tcmtf mailing list > >>> tcmtf@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > >>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tcmtf mailing list > > tcmtf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf >=20 >=20 > -- > "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno" >=20 > Dr Diego R. Lopez > Telefonica I+D > http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/ >=20 > e-mail: diego@tid.es > Tel: +34 913 129 041 > Mobile: +34 682 051 091 > ----------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede = consultar > nuestra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en = el enlace > situado m=E1s abajo. > This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send = and > receive email on the basis of the terms set out at: > http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx From mns@tid.es Mon May 20 05:46:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CFA21F84A6 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 05:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KeqD-r2t6OJ2 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 05:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from correo-bck.tid.es (correo-bck.tid.es [195.235.93.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E7421F92A5 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 05:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Sbrightmailg02.hi.inet [10.95.78.105]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MN3003VAKSYD4@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Mon, 20 May 2013 14:46:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: from vanvan (vanvan.hi.inet [10.95.78.49]) by sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 13.93.02845.21B1A915; Mon, 20 May 2013 14:46:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MN30035WKSYBX@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Mon, 20 May 2013 14:46:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.38]) by EX10-HTCAS8-MAD.hi.inet ([fe80::41c8:e965:8a6:de67%11]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Mon, 20 May 2013 14:46:10 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 12:46:09 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?MANUEL_NU=D1EZ_SANZ?= In-reply-to: <00a001ce554b$bb79c170$326d4450$@unizar.es> X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: "jsaldana@unizar.es" , "Diego R. Lopez" Message-id: <90ED8822CB577741B9A1668A4753931265647A5C@EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: es-ES Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Thread-topic: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of the Industry Thread-index: AQHOVUpUMO2imxd86EenqHSQ7aIIXpkNy1qAgAA2PaA= X-AuditID: 0a5f4e69-b7fb26d000000b1d-65-519a1b125764 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFe9nqCskPSvQ4McKHYtdnzcwOjB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoErY23bNaaCq94VLy/uYm9g3GDdxcjJISFgIrF9zyZGCFtM4sK9 9WwgtpDAdkaJnecLIeyfjBJ/3qV3MXIB2RsYJeadWgxWxCKgKvF4zmamLkYODjYBc4m+dTwg YWGBEImWiy+YQGxOAQuJFcd6WCDmK0j8OfcYzBYR8JPY2v6aEaSVGWjMvG+KIGFeAW+JYw9b mCFsQYkfk++BlTML6Ej0fv/GDGGLS8z5NZEVwtaWePLuApjNKCArsfL8aUaI8aESy68cYwUZ LyJgJfFtLtS3AhJL9pxnhrBFJV4+/scK8dVyRonb+/YzTmAUn4Vk9Swkq2chWT0LyeoFjCyr GMWKk4oy0zNKchMzc9INjPQyMvUy81JLNjFCIihzB+PynSqHGAU4GJV4eC/cqA0UYk0sK67M PcQowcGsJMIb/XtmoBBvSmJlVWpRfnxRaU5q8SFGJg5OqQZGZr6Di9f5uX66b5h2szz27mWJ hl1q/0pELjK2/JinFZqccuvav6nKhxvSf25s6fnVbTJr9orbacoaq6L/FBz6f7miKuDE92vW ou8sra/J6D+7O80y53nxwUs1k3kn+alHn7JJyr47qdy7zsC6bKruuRbdhFdGGq9eXrM+/ttc M3jFC8GgX4yzlFiKMxINtZiLihMB/MKTXH4CAAA= References: <008701ce5541$01fff570$05ffe050$@unizar.es> <00a001ce554b$bb79c170$326d4450$@unizar.es> Cc: "tcmtf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of the Industry X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 12:46:16 -0000 According the last consideration " do we need a specific document for multi= plexing RTP VoIP flows?". Under my point of view "no", although VoIP is an = important use case, the document should address generic cases oriented by p= riority/delay-sensitive and not an individual VoIP case. Manuel. -----Mensaje original----- De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Jos= e Saldana Enviado el: lunes, 20 de mayo de 2013 13:18 Para: Diego R. Lopez CC: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of the In= dustry RFC4170 only considers ECRTP for header compression, which is older than RO= HC. In that sense, RFC4170 needed an update from the moment ROHC was releas= ed. In addition, as long as the plan is "including" RFC4170 as one of the "bran= ches" of TCMTF, I suppose it would be obsoleted. But I don't think we would have to rewrite it. If TCMTF includes it as an o= ption, do we need a specific document for multiplexing RTP VoIP flows? Jose > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Diego R. Lopez [mailto:diego@tid.es] Enviado el: lunes, 20 de mayo > de 2013 13:08 > Para: > CC: > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of > the Industry > > Hi Jose, > > So this would imply to review or obsolete RFC4170? An additional > document to the list, isn't it? > > Be goode, > > On 20 May 2013, at 12:01 , Jose Saldana wrote: > > > Another idea we should include in the first presentation (why do we > > need to standardize TCMTF) is this: > > > > - A standard already exists (RFC4170), written by three people from > > Cisco in 2005. > > > > - However, this standard only considers a single option at each layer: > > - ECRTP for header compression, so only services based on RTP > > are considered > > - PPPMux for multiplexing > > - L2TP for tunneling > > > > - From 2005 to now: > > - a significant effort has been devoted in the IETF for > > standardizing ROHC (which performs better than ECRTP in many scenarios) > > - a lot of applications generating long-term flows with high > > rates of non-RTP small packets have emerged > > > > - So why not widening TCRTP's scope in order to: > > - Allow other traffics different from RTP > > - Allow these new developed header compression techniques > > > > Do you find this coherent? > > > > Jose > > > >> -----Mensaje original----- > >> De: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] Enviado el: > >> mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 11:10 > >> Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > >> CC: "'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'"; tcmtf@ietf.org > >> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > >> > >> My guess is that many people at the IETF would "like" to see people > >> say > > they > >> plan to implement for a product, or that they plan to devote > >> significant > > effort > >> to seeing the standard matches their need for a particular use case (e.g. > >> operators or equipment vendors). This can be a strong indication > >> that > > there is > >> a need for a standard. This can be in a slide, or at the Mic or on > >> the > > list, slides, > >> etc... > >> > >> If it's just researchers wanting toi agree a spec that may also be > >> OK, but > > then > >> it could be an IRTF activity that comes up with an experimental > >> spec for people to evaluate. > >> > >> Gorry > >> > >>> Hi, Mirko. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are getting > >>> more and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only > >> European > >>> Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the > >>> duration of the battery is critical there. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network > >>> Socket Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application management. > >>> NSRM reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling application > >>> requests and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides > >>> significant signaling reduction and also improves stand-by time." > >>> > >>> > >>> >> managing-ba > >>> ckgrou > >>> nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices> > >>> http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research- > >> managing-bac > >>> kgroun > >>> d-data-traffic-mobile-devices > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. The > >>> benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 1- Bandwidth saving > >>> > >>> 2- PPS reduction > >>> > >>> 3- Energy savings > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Jose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En > nombre > >>> de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 10:08 > >>> Para: tcmtf@ietf.org > >>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Hello everybody, > >>> > >>> Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing is > >>> to do is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must prove > >>> in a coherent way that the problem we are addressing here is a > >>> problem worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we > >>> must present all the benefits the solving of our problem might > >>> bring. We more or less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. > >>> Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notion of > >>> energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not > >>> certain would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was > >>> interesting for the European Commission. > >>> > >>> Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. > >>> > >>> > >>> Cheers! > >>> > >>> Mirko Suznjevic > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] > >>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM > >>> To: tcmtf@ietf.org > >>> Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 > >>> Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi all. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to > >>> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, > >>> 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests > >>> to Area Directors. So we still have a month. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with > >>> a teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and > >>> what is the need for standardization. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> So we could follow this structure: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for > >>> standardization > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay > >>> requirements, classification methods, etc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he > >>> is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with > >>> TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in > >>> the TCMTF draft from the very beginning. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> What do you think? Any ideas? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks a lot and best regards!, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Jose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> tcmtf mailing list > >>> tcmtf@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > >>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tcmtf mailing list > > tcmtf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > > > -- > "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno" > > Dr Diego R. Lopez > Telefonica I+D > http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/ > > e-mail: diego@tid.es > Tel: +34 913 129 041 > Mobile: +34 682 051 091 > ----------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ > > Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede > consultar nuestra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3= nico > en el enlace situado m=E1s abajo. > This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send > and receive email on the basis of the terms set out at: > http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx _______________________________________________ tcmtf mailing list tcmtf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf ________________________________ Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nu= estra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enl= ace situado m=E1s abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re= ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at: http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon May 20 07:59:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F4521F85D6 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 07:59:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.161, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cb6pwJeFrzH9 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 07:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A637821F8265 for ; Mon, 20 May 2013 07:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4KExMdL023014; Mon, 20 May 2013 16:59:22 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: References: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: <008201ce4fc4$22b8e510$682aaf30$@unizar.es> Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 16:59:26 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <002a01ce556a$9f7bd430$de737c90$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01CE557B.6305B5A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQMEIpyho0KjN7tC+jPQgybcWLqFipaijADw Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA , 'Martin Stiemerling' Subject: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 14:59:34 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01CE557B.6305B5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have some (good) news regarding the presentations. Diego R. Lopez = agrees to be in charge of the second presentation. So I would switch to the = third one. =20 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardization. Dan Wing, Cisco =20 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG. Diego R. Lopez, Telefonica =20 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal. Jose Saldana, = University of Zaragoza =20 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc. Mirko Suznjevic, University of Zagreb =20 (5- Specific uses of TCMTF in wireless and satellite scenarios) To be confirmed =20 Best regards, =20 Jose =20 De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de = Jose Saldana Enviado el: lunes, 13 de mayo de 2013 12:25 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org CC: Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6; Dan Wing; Martin Stiemerling Asunto: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme =20 Hi all. =20 According to = http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. = So we still have a month. =20 we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. =20 According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session with a = teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and what is the need = for standardization. =20 So we could follow this structure: =20 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardization =20 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG =20 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal =20 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc. =20 =20 Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he is one = of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" with TCMTF), so he = knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the = very beginning. =20 I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. =20 Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). =20 Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. =20 =20 =20 What do you think? Any ideas? =20 Thanks a lot and best regards!, =20 Jose=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01CE557B.6305B5A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have some (good) news regarding = the presentations. Diego R. Lopez agrees to be in charge of the second = presentation. So I would switch to the third = one.

1- Teaser = presentation: describing the problem and the need for standardization. = Dan Wing, Cisco

2- Charter: = Documents to be generated within this potential WG. Diego R. Lopez, = Telefonica

3- Draft A: = Explaining the current TCMTF proposal. Jose Saldana, University of = Zaragoza

4- Draft B: = Explaining the content of the draft about delay requirements, = classification methods, etc. Mirko Suznjevic, University of = Zagreb

(5- = =A0Specific uses of TCMTF in wireless and satellite scenarios) To be = confirmed

Best = regards,

Jose

De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] = En nombre de Jose Saldana
Enviado el: lunes, 13 de mayo = de 2013 12:25
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
CC: Mirko = Su=BEnjevi=E6; Dan Wing; Martin Stiemerling
Asunto: [tcmtf] = BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible = scheme

Hi all.

According to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for = BOF proposal requests to Area Directors. So we still have a = month.

we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF = proposal.

According to Martin’s suggestion, we could begin the = session with a teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are = and what is the need for standardization.

So we could follow this = structure:

1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need = for standardization

2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential = WG

3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF = proposal

4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay = requirements, classification methods, etc.

Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). = This would be good, since he is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC = we should “update” with TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. = In addition, he has been in the TCMTF draft from the very = beginning.

I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the = charter.

Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of = (3).

Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first = author.

What do you think? Any ideas?

Thanks a lot and best = regards!,

Jose =

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01CE557B.6305B5A0-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Fri May 24 07:41:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1FD421F9895 for ; Fri, 24 May 2013 07:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.784, BAYES_20=-0.74, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id abyuYpzDoKOa for ; Fri, 24 May 2013 07:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huecha.unizar.es (huecha.unizar.es [155.210.1.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0459021F9347 for ; Fri, 24 May 2013 07:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by huecha.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4OEfOMx017852 for ; Fri, 24 May 2013 16:41:24 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 16:41:30 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <007b01ce588c$c7553940$55ffabc0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac5Yixwm9f+hSLOXQQu4uRRH02zxCA== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Subject: [tcmtf] TCMTF: A minor improvement for the charter proposal X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 14:41:33 -0000 Hi all, Related to the ideas discussed in the thread below, we could say this in = the draft: after the approval of RFC4170 in 2005, new header compression = schemes have been proposed and standardized. So we should also stress the convenience of updating RFC4170 in order to consider not only ECRTP (RFC 3545, July 2003) but also ROHC (RFC 5795, March 2010). Perhaps we could slightly modify this paragraph of the charter proposal: Current version: 4. However, in the last years, emerging real-time services which do not = use UDP/RTP have=20 become popular: some of them use UDP or even TCP. So there is a need of widening the=20 scope of RFC4170 in order to consider not only UDP/RTP but also other protocols. The same=20 structure of three layers will be considered: (...) New proposal: 4. However, in the last years, emerging real-time services which do not = use UDP/RTP have=20 become popular: some of them use UDP or even TCP. *In addition, new = header compression methods have been defined (ROHC)*. So there is a need of widening the = scope of RFC4170 in order to consider not only UDP/RTP but also other protocols. The same structure of three layers will be considered: (...) What do you think? Thanks, Jose > -----Mensaje original----- > De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre = de > Jose Saldana > Enviado el: lunes, 20 de mayo de 2013 13:18 > Para: 'Diego R. Lopez' > CC: tcmtf@ietf.org > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of = the > Industry >=20 > RFC4170 only considers ECRTP for header compression, which is older = than > ROHC. In that sense, RFC4170 needed an update from the moment ROHC > was released. >=20 > In addition, as long as the plan is "including" RFC4170 as one of the > "branches" of TCMTF, I suppose it would be obsoleted. >=20 > But I don't think we would have to rewrite it. If TCMTF includes it as = an > option, do we need a specific document for multiplexing RTP VoIP = flows? >=20 > Jose >=20 > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: Diego R. Lopez [mailto:diego@tid.es] Enviado el: lunes, 20 de = mayo > > de 2013 13:08 > > Para: > > CC: > > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Showing the interest of > > the Industry > > > > Hi Jose, > > > > So this would imply to review or obsolete RFC4170? An additional > > document to the list, isn't it? > > > > Be goode, > > > > On 20 May 2013, at 12:01 , Jose Saldana wrote: > > > > > Another idea we should include in the first presentation (why do = we > > > need to standardize TCMTF) is this: > > > > > > - A standard already exists (RFC4170), written by three people = from > > > Cisco in 2005. > > > > > > - However, this standard only considers a single option at each = layer: > > > - ECRTP for header compression, so only services based on = RTP > > > are considered > > > - PPPMux for multiplexing > > > - L2TP for tunneling > > > > > > - From 2005 to now: > > > - a significant effort has been devoted in the IETF for > > > standardizing ROHC (which performs better than ECRTP in many > scenarios) > > > - a lot of applications generating long-term flows with high > > > rates of non-RTP small packets have emerged > > > > > > - So why not widening TCRTP's scope in order to: > > > - Allow other traffics different from RTP > > > - Allow these new developed header compression techniques > > > > > > Do you find this coherent? > > > > > > Jose > > > > > >> -----Mensaje original----- > > >> De: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] Enviado = el: > > >> mi=E9rcoles, 15 de mayo de 2013 11:10 > > >> Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > > >> CC: "'Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6'"; tcmtf@ietf.org > > >> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > >> > > >> My guess is that many people at the IETF would "like" to see = people > > >> say > > > they > > >> plan to implement for a product, or that they plan to devote > > >> significant > > > effort > > >> to seeing the standard matches their need for a particular use = case > (e.g. > > >> operators or equipment vendors). This can be a strong indication > > >> that > > > there is > > >> a need for a standard. This can be in a slide, or at the Mic or = on > > >> the > > > list, slides, > > >> etc... > > >> > > >> If it's just researchers wanting toi agree a spec that may also = be > > >> OK, but > > > then > > >> it could be an IRTF activity that comes up with an experimental > > >> spec for people to evaluate. > > >> > > >> Gorry > > >> > > >>> Hi, Mirko. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> The idea of energy savings is also interesting. People are = getting > > >>> more and more concerned with the energy consumption. Not only > > >> European > > >>> Commission, but also smartphone and tablet manufacturers: the > > >>> duration of the battery is critical there. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> For example, "Qualcomm has developed a solution called Network > > >>> Socket Request Manager (NSRM) for efficient application > management. > > >>> NSRM reduces smart phone signaling traffic by bundling = application > > >>> requests and intelligently delaying them. NSRM provides > > >>> significant signaling reduction and also improves stand-by = time." > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> research- > > >> managing-ba > > >>> ckgrou > > >>> nd-data-traffic-mobile-devices> > > >>> http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/qualcomm-research- > > >> managing-bac > > >>> kgroun > > >>> d-data-traffic-mobile-devices > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Perhaps we could also include this idea in the presentations. = The > > >>> benefits of packet grouping are 3 instead of 2: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> 1- Bandwidth saving > > >>> > > >>> 2- PPS reduction > > >>> > > >>> 3- Energy savings > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> What do you think? Will people at the IETF like energy savings? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Best regards, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Jose > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En > > nombre > > >>> de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: martes, 14 de mayo de 2013 = 10:08 > > >>> Para: tcmtf@ietf.org > > >>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Hello everybody, > > >>> > > >>> Well I concur with the structure. I believe that the main thing = is > > >>> to do is to well formulate and explain the problem. We must = prove > > >>> in a coherent way that the problem we are addressing here is a > > >>> problem worth putting effort to and worth solving. In short we > > >>> must present all the benefits the solving of our problem might > > >>> bring. We more or less covered the network aspects of the TCMTF. > > >>> Maybe one of the previously not emphasized things is the notion = of > > >>> energy savings which TCMTF implementation might bring. I am not > > >>> certain would such topics be interesting in the IETF, but it was > > >>> interesting for the European Commission. > > >>> > > >>> Ofcourse I will create the presentation regarding my part. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Cheers! > > >>> > > >>> Mirko Suznjevic > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> From: Jose Saldana [mailto:jsaldana@unizar.es] > > >>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:25 PM > > >>> To: tcmtf@ietf.org > > >>> Cc: Martin Stiemerling; Dan Wing; Mirko Su=BEnjevi=E6 > > >>> Subject: BoF proposal for Berlin. Possible scheme > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Hi all. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> According to > > >>> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87, > > >>> 2013-06-17 (Monday) is the cutoff date for BOF proposal requests > > >>> to Area Directors. So we still have a month. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> we could discuss a bit the possible scheme for the BoF proposal. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> According to Martin's suggestion, we could begin the session = with > > >>> a teaser presentation describing what the exact issues are and > > >>> what is the need for standardization. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> So we could follow this structure: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> 1- Teaser presentation: describing the problem and the need for > > >>> standardization > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> 2- Charter: Documents to be generated within this potential WG > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> 3- Draft A: Explaining the current TCMTF proposal > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> 4- Draft B: Explaining the content of the draft about delay > > >>> requirements, classification methods, etc. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Dan Wing could be in charge of (1). This would be good, since he > > >>> is one of the authors of RFC4170 (the RFC we should "update" = with > > >>> TCMTF), so he knows the whole story. In addition, he has been in > > >>> the TCMTF draft from the very beginning. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I could be in charge of (2), mainly explaining the charter. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Perhaps someone from Telefonica could be in charge of (3). > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Mirko Suznjevic could present (4), since he is the first author. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> What do you think? Any ideas? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Thanks a lot and best regards!, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Jose > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> tcmtf mailing list > > >>> tcmtf@ietf.org > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > > >>> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tcmtf mailing list > > > tcmtf@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > > > > > > -- > > "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno" > > > > Dr Diego R. Lopez > > Telefonica I+D > > http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/ > > > > e-mail: diego@tid.es > > Tel: +34 913 129 041 > > Mobile: +34 682 051 091 > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede > > consultar nuestra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo = electr=F3nico > > en el enlace situado m=E1s abajo. > > This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send > > and receive email on the basis of the terms set out at: > > http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf From Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr Sat May 25 01:32:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343B921F93D4 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 01:32:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Hez+YuEEbUd for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 01:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fer.hr (mail5.fer.hr [161.53.72.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5880C21F93E6 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 01:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAIL4.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48ea::a135:48ea]) by MAIL5.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48eb::a135:48eb]) with mapi id 14.02.0309.002; Sat, 25 May 2013 10:32:11 +0200 From: =?utf-8?B?TWlya28gU3XFvm5qZXZpxIc=?= To: "jsaldana@unizar.es" Thread-Topic: [tcmtf] TCMTF: A minor improvement for the charter proposal Thread-Index: Ac5Yixwm9f+hSLOXQQu4uRRH02zxCAAly2VA Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 08:32:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <007b01ce588c$c7553940$55ffabc0$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: <007b01ce588c$c7553940$55ffabc0$@unizar.es> Accept-Language: en-US, hr-HR Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [161.53.19.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "tcmtf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tcmtf] TCMTF: A minor improvement for the charter proposal X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 08:32:19 -0000 V2VsbCB0aGlzIHNlZW1zIHBlcmZlY3RseSBvayB0byBtZS4NCk1pcmtvDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2lu YWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiB0Y210Zi1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86dGNt dGYtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIEpvc2UgU2FsZGFuYQ0KU2VudDogRnJp ZGF5LCBNYXkgMjQsIDIwMTMgNDo0MiBQTQ0KVG86IHRjbXRmQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBb dGNtdGZdIFRDTVRGOiBBIG1pbm9yIGltcHJvdmVtZW50IGZvciB0aGUgY2hhcnRlciBwcm9wb3Nh bA0KDQpIaSBhbGwsDQoNClJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIGlkZWFzIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBpbiB0aGUgdGhy ZWFkIGJlbG93LCB3ZSBjb3VsZCBzYXkgdGhpcyBpbiB0aGUNCmRyYWZ0OiBhZnRlciB0aGUgYXBw cm92YWwgb2YgUkZDNDE3MCBpbiAyMDA1LCBuZXcgaGVhZGVyIGNvbXByZXNzaW9uIHNjaGVtZXMg aGF2ZSBiZWVuIHByb3Bvc2VkIGFuZCBzdGFuZGFyZGl6ZWQuIFNvIHdlIHNob3VsZCBhbHNvIHN0 cmVzcyB0aGUgY29udmVuaWVuY2Ugb2YgdXBkYXRpbmcgUkZDNDE3MCBpbiBvcmRlciB0byBjb25z 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R0lOQVMvZGlzY2xhaW1lci5hc3B4DQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiB0Y210ZiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gdGNtdGZAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby90Y210Zg0KDQpfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KdGNtdGYgbWFpbGlu ZyBsaXN0DQp0Y210ZkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby90Y210Zg0K From Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr Sat May 25 01:51:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92EF621F9446 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 01:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xyOdLhiPfajL for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 01:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fer.hr (mail5.fer.hr [161.53.72.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE1921F9425 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 01:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAIL4.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48ea::a135:48ea]) by MAIL5.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48eb::a135:48eb]) with mapi id 14.02.0309.002; Sat, 25 May 2013 10:51:16 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6?= To: "tcmtf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Multiplexing period as a metric Thread-Index: Ac5ZJQQYmEdN5MWATm6eWQ/BlLo+3A== Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 08:51:15 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, hr-HR Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [161.53.19.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C01DE2BMAIL4ferhr_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [tcmtf] Multiplexing period as a metric X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 08:51:24 -0000 --_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C01DE2BMAIL4ferhr_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everybody, I have a question regarding the Multiplexing period we mention in our propo= sal. Should we define it firmly as a metric, as instructed in the RFC 6390 Guide= lines for Considering New Performance Metric Development? Could this period= be considered as a full metric? For me the most interesting questing in RFC 6390 is: (i) the degree to which its absence would cause significant loss of information on the behavior or performance of the application or system being measured I think that apsence of this metric does limit our information about system= performance. Again Multiplexing period as such now is only defined by its = limit. Also, it would be dependent on the employed techniques for particula= r network path and so on. Do you think there is a need to define this as a metric? Thanks for the advices. Best regards, Mirko Suznjevic --_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C01DE2BMAIL4ferhr_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello everybody,

I have a question regarding the= Multiplexing period we mention in our proposal.

Should we define it firmly as a= metric, as instructed in the RFC 6390 Guidelines for Considering New Perfo= rmance Metric Development? Could this period be considered as a full metric= ?

For me the most interesting que= sting in RFC 6390 is:

(i) the degree to which its = absence would cause significant loss

    &nbs= p; of information on the behavior or performance of the application

    &nbs= p; or system being measured

I think that apsence of this me= tric does limit our information about system performance. Again Multiplexin= g period as such now is only defined by its limit. Also, it would be depend= ent on the employed techniques for particular network path and so on.

Do you think there is a need to define this as a metric?<= /p>

Thanks for the advices.

Best regards,=

Mirko Suznjevic

--_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C01DE2BMAIL4ferhr_-- From diego@tid.es Sun May 26 10:52:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE26321F8E4E for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 10:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.992 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.992 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.107, BAYES_40=-0.185, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z76xUVsJzRVs for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 10:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from correo-bck.tid.es (correo-bck.tid.es [195.235.93.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695B421F8689 for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 10:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Sbrightmailg02.hi.inet [10.95.78.105]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MNF0078X30353@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Sun, 26 May 2013 19:52:51 +0200 (MEST) Received: from vanvan (vanvan.hi.inet [10.95.78.49]) by sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id A3.CB.02845.3FB42A15; Sun, 26 May 2013 19:52:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MNF0078Q30353@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Sun, 26 May 2013 19:52:51 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.38]) by EX10-HTCAS7-MAD.hi.inet ([::1]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Sun, 26 May 2013 19:52:51 +0200 Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 17:52:50 +0000 From: "Diego R. Lopez" In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: =?utf-8?B?TWlya28gU3XFvm5qZXZpxIc=?= , "jsaldana@unizar.es Saldana" Message-id: Content-id: <05506982AA5C6643948F9D8861A29F3A@hi.inet> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Accept-Language: en-US, es-ES Thread-topic: [tcmtf] TCMTF: A minor improvement for the charter proposal Thread-index: Ac5Yixwm9f+hSLOXQQu4uRRH02zxCA== X-AuditID: 0a5f4e69-b7fb26d000000b1d-31-51a24bf342d6 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmphkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42Lhivcz1P3svSjQ4PtNPYtdnzcwOjB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr40j3UtaCP+IV6/e/YWpgXCPexcjJISFgIrFl6T02CFtM4sK9 9UA2F4eQwHZGid6Wv+wQzk9GiUn73zBDONMYJR7t3sEO0sIioCqxoHc3I4jNBmQ/av4NFhcW 8JBoOr+YBcTmFHCSuH14HivECgWJP+ceg8VFBMokGtvnAtkcHMxAvfO+KYKEeQW8JXa+mgY2 klnATOLYnBvMEHFBiR+T70GVq0tMmZILUSIu0dx6kwXCVpSYtqgBrJVRQFbi3fz5rBCbPCWO tN5mgrD1JKb3TGCGuEZAYsme81C2qMTLx//A6oUE8iV2XJ7OOIFRYhaSK2YhuWIWwhWzkFwx C8kVCxhZVzGKFScVZaZnlOQmZuakGxjpZWTqZeallmxihMRc5g7G5TtVDjEKcDAq8fBu2DE/ UIg1say4MvcQowQHs5IIr7ziokAh3pTEyqrUovz4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjEmb6zbv7vTbkjLn ywH+2D6d+5nWO1Z9OLl/wp2WrYcavt8RcTSp8pA1bruwmEdUMkch5A7DnH12Kr0M9m/sKp8U MIkeL28N9H11+kXp6yTurb+XL5mqe+tdaMARYd+ShTO0P13qY727ZuFUEZErCTUKlyKY5efV zznx6VZ4m3CMaEO3UM3RLCWW4oxEQy3mouJEAHlUK7yXAgAA References: <007b01ce588c$c7553940$55ffabc0$@unizar.es> Cc: "tcmtf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tcmtf] TCMTF: A minor improvement for the charter proposal X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 17:53:00 -0000 KzENCg0KT24gMjUgTWF5IDIwMTMsIGF0IDEwOjMyICwgTWlya28gU3XFvm5qZXZpxIcgd3JvdGU6 DQoNCj4gV2VsbCB0aGlzIHNlZW1zIHBlcmZlY3RseSBvayB0byBtZS4NCj4gTWlya28NCj4NCj4g 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byB5b3UgdGhpbms/IFRoYW5rcywNCg0KDQotLQ0KIkVzdGEgdmV6IG5vIGZhbGxhcmVtb3MsIERv Y3RvciBJbmZpZXJubyINCg0KRHIgRGllZ28gUi4gTG9wZXoNClRlbGVmb25pY2EgSStEDQpodHRw Oi8vcGVvcGxlLnRpZC5lcy9kaWVnby5sb3Blei8NCg0KZS1tYWlsOiBkaWVnb0B0aWQuZXMNClRl bDogICAgKzM0IDkxMyAxMjkgMDQxDQpNb2JpbGU6ICszNCA2ODIgMDUxIDA5MQ0KLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KDQpFc3RlIG1lbnNhamUgc2UgZGlyaWdlIGV4Y2x1c2l2YW1lbnRlIGEg c3UgZGVzdGluYXRhcmlvLiBQdWVkZSBjb25zdWx0YXIgbnVlc3RyYSBwb2zDrXRpY2EgZGUgZW52 w61vIHkgcmVjZXBjacOzbiBkZSBjb3JyZW8gZWxlY3Ryw7NuaWNvIGVuIGVsIGVubGFjZSBzaXR1 YWRvIG3DoXMgYWJham8uDQpUaGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UgaXMgaW50ZW5kZWQgZXhjbHVzaXZlbHkgZm9y IGl0cyBhZGRyZXNzZWUuIFdlIG9ubHkgc2VuZCBhbmQgcmVjZWl2ZSBlbWFpbCBvbiB0aGUgYmFz aXMgb2YgdGhlIHRlcm1zIHNldCBvdXQgYXQ6DQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnRpZC5lcy9FUy9QQUdJTkFT L2Rpc2NsYWltZXIuYXNweA0K From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon May 27 03:32:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5044021F8F1E for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 03:32:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id htcG5pnF6yq2 for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 03:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huecha.unizar.es (huecha.unizar.es [155.210.1.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7575321F8EBC for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 03:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by huecha.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4RAW7BQ007312; Mon, 27 May 2013 12:32:07 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 12:32:13 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <00b701ce5ac5$7433ebe0$5c9bc3a0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B8_01CE5AD6.37BD7F30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac5awCKwHR3Y9w17T9WwvgyOdq0A1A== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: spencer@wonderhamster.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: [tcmtf] Three weeks for the deadline for requesting the BOF X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 10:32:20 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01CE5AD6.37BD7F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. The cutoff date for sending the BOF proposal request is in three weeks ( http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87). According to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/bof-procedures.html, we need the next things: 1- full name of the BOF: Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows 2- acronym: TCMTF 3- suggested names of chairs: still pending 4- agenda: We have discussed it in other thread. I think it is complete with the 5 presentations ( http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00225.html) 5- full description of the BOF: Is this the same as the Charter draft? ( http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_charter_draft.pdf). Otherwise we could prepare another text. "The approval depends on, for instance, Internet-Drafts and list discussion on the suggested topic." We currently have two Internet-Drafts, and another one (Satellite scenarios) may also be submitted ( http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00095.html) I have also read again http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5434 in order to check if we are in the right way, and I think so. We have been preparing this proposal from more than a year ago (the first draft was presented in Paris in March 2012), and we have a well-discussed charter draft (consensus was achieved in the list). So we need to work a bit on 3 and 5. Thanks a lot! Jose ------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01CE5AD6.37BD7F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi = all.

The cutoff date for sending the BOF = proposal request is in three weeks (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87).

According to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/bof-procedures.html, we need the next things:

1- full name of the BOF: Tunneling Compressed = Multiplexed Traffic Flows

2- acronym: TCMTF

3- suggested names of chairs: still = pending

4- agenda: We have discussed it in other thread. I = think it is complete with the 5 presentations (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00225.= html)

5- full description of the BOF: Is this the same as the Charter draft? (http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_charter_= draft.pdf). Otherwise we could prepare = another text.

“The approval depends on, for instance, = Internet-Drafts and list discussion on the suggested = topic.”

We currently have two Internet-Drafts, and another one = (Satellite scenarios) may also be submitted (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00095.= html)

I have also read again http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5434 in order to check if we are in the right way, and I think = so. We have been preparing this proposal from more than a year ago (the = first draft was presented in Paris in March 2012), and we have a = well-discussed charter draft (consensus was achieved in the = list).

So we need to work a bit on 3 and = 5.

Thanks a lot!

Jose

------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01CE5AD6.37BD7F30-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon May 27 03:32:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09BD21F8F1E for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 03:32:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JkxC7z7gZSPZ for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 03:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A42421F8EBC for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 03:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4RAWbUM014253; Mon, 27 May 2013 12:32:37 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 12:32:44 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <00bc01ce5ac5$862f0a50$928d1ef0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE5AD6.49B87690" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac5aw0SDPHE2K6TGRGWzA0bP+38Wyg== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: spencer@wonderhamster.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: [tcmtf] Other questions necessary for the BOF proposal X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 10:32:47 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE5AD6.49B87690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In addition, http://www.ietf.org/old/2009/instructions/MTG-SLOTS.html says that we have to include: b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears: Transport Area c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: Transport Area meetings, RAI, LISP d. Expected Attendance (figures from the previous IETF meeting are included in the message that is sent when scheduling opens): e. Special requests: f. Number of sessions: 1 g. Length of sessions: I think 1 hour should be enough Any other ideas for c)? For d), I don't really know. It depends on the interest we are able to achieve previously. In the mailing list there are 33 people, but I have received e-mails from many other people. Any ideas? Thanks! Jose ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE5AD6.49B87690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In addition, http://www.ietf.org/old/2009/instructions/MTG-SLOTS.html says that we have to = include:

        b. AREA under = which Working Group or BOF appears: Transport = Area

        c. CONFLICTS you = wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: Transport Area = meetings, RAI, LISP

        d. Expected = Attendance (figures from the previous IETF meeting are included = in
          = the message that is sent when scheduling = opens):

        e. Special = requests:

        f. Number of = sessions: 1

        g. Length of = sessions: I think 1 hour should be enough

Any other ideas for c)?

For d), I don’t really know. = It depends on the interest we are able to achieve previously. In the = mailing list there are 33 people, but I have received e-mails from many = other people. Any ideas?

Thanks!

Jose =

------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE5AD6.49B87690-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon May 27 04:16:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5517C21F9019 for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 04:16:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.015 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.015 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.283, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NpROfSOVapFS for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 04:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D24621F9003 for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 04:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4RBGSss024527; Mon, 27 May 2013 13:16:29 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "=?iso-8859-2?Q?'Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6'?=" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 13:16:35 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <00d801ce5acb$a733bdd0$f59b3970$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D9_01CE5ADC.6ABD7830" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGLuLI8sTZIOejSJDehyWlbkLfgWpmeIMDQ Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: "'Benoit Claise $bclaise$'" , "'Fred Baker $fred$'" , alan.d.clark@telchemy.com Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Multiplexing period as a metric X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 11:16:45 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01CE5ADC.6ABD7830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Mirko. I have had a look to rfc6390, and it is really interesting. = This is my opinion: =20 - Performance metrics could be really useful for Draft B ( http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-suznjevic-tsvwg-mtd-tcmtf/). In = fact, the title of the draft is "Maximum Tolerable Delays ." so we should = clearly define that delays according to a metric. =20 - Regarding the question "should multiplexing period be defined as a metric"? My answer is "no", but it should be considered as the delay = added by a "middlebox". If you see RFC 6390, 5.5.4: =20 5.5.4. Middlebox Presence Presence of a middlebox [RFC3303], e.g., proxy, network address translation (NAT), redirect server, session border controller (SBC) [RFC5853], and application layer gateway (ALG), may add variability to or restrict the scope of measurements of a metric. (. . .) =20 Multiplexing period is something that has an influence on overall delay: = it adds a new delay (half the period in average) and jitter (since packets arriving at the beginning of the period are delayed more than packets arriving just before the multiplexed packet is sent). =20 - The delay for a real-time service is a very important metric. If we = are able to characterize the modification of delay when a multiplexer is = added, we can have an estimation of the delay increase when multiplexing. Multiplexing is something transparent to the two ends of the = communication. Packets may travel in a multiplexed way only in a certain network = segment, so the only noticeable effect for the extremes is additional delay and jitter. =20 Well, in fact, the delay increase is easy to calculate: half the period. = In this paper http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ccnc_2012_july_in_proc.pdf we calculated the modification of the jitter. =20 If we use a timeout instead of a fixed period, things are slightly different: http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/letters_2011_in_proc.pdf. We = can save more bandwidth, but we would add more jitter. =20 What do you think? =20 Jose =20 De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: s=E1bado, 25 de mayo de 2013 10:51 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: [tcmtf] Multiplexing period as a metric =20 Hello everybody, I have a question regarding the Multiplexing period we mention in our proposal.=20 Should we define it firmly as a metric, as instructed in the RFC 6390 Guidelines for Considering New Performance Metric Development? Could = this period be considered as a full metric? For me the most interesting questing in RFC 6390 is: (i) the degree to which its absence would cause significant loss of information on the behavior or performance of the application or system being measured I think that apsence of this metric does limit our information about = system performance. Again Multiplexing period as such now is only defined by = its limit. Also, it would be dependent on the employed techniques for = particular network path and so on. Do you think there is a need to define this as a metric? =20 Thanks for the advices. Best regards, Mirko Suznjevic ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01CE5ADC.6ABD7830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Mirko. I have had a look to = rfc6390, and it is really interesting. This is my = opinion:

- = Performance metrics could be really useful for Draft B (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-suznjevic-tsvwg-mtd-tc= mtf/). In fact, the title of the draft is = “Maximum Tolerable Delays …” so we should clearly = define that delays according to a metric.

- Regarding = the question “should multiplexing period be defined as a = metric”? My answer is “no”, but it should be = considered as the delay added by a “middlebox”. If you see = RFC 6390, 5.5.4:

5.5.4. Middlebox = Presence
Presence of a middlebox = [RFC3303], e.g., proxy, network address
translation (NAT), = redirect server, session border controller (SBC)
[RFC5853], and application = layer gateway (ALG), may add variability
to or restrict the scope = of measurements of a metric. (. . .)

Multiplexing period is something that has an = influence on overall delay: it adds a new delay (half the period in = average) and jitter (since packets arriving at the beginning of the = period are delayed more than packets arriving just before the = multiplexed packet is sent).

- The delay = for a real-time service is a very important metric. If we are able to = characterize the modification of delay when a multiplexer is added, we = can have an estimation of the delay increase when multiplexing. = Multiplexing is something transparent to the two ends of the = communication. Packets may travel in a multiplexed way only in a certain = network segment, so the only noticeable effect for the extremes is = additional delay and jitter.

Well, in = fact, the delay increase is easy to calculate: half the period. In this = paper http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ccnc_2012_july_in_p= roc.pdf we = calculated the modification of the jitter.

If we use a = timeout instead of a fixed period, things are slightly different: = http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/letters_2011_in_pro= c.pdf. We can save = more bandwidth, but we would add more jitter.

What do you = think?

Jose

De: = tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de = Mirko Su=BEnjevic
Enviado el: s=E1bado, 25 de mayo de 2013 = 10:51
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: [tcmtf] = Multiplexing period as a metric

Hello everybody,
I have a question regarding the = Multiplexing period we mention in our proposal.
Should we define it firmly as a = metric, as instructed in the RFC 6390 Guidelines for Considering New = Performance Metric Development? Could this period be considered as a = full metric?
For me the most interesting questing in RFC 6390 = is:
(i) the degree to which = its absence would cause significant loss
      of information on the = behavior or performance of the application
      or system being = measured
I = think that apsence of this metric does limit our information about = system performance. Again Multiplexing period as such now is only = defined by its limit. Also, it would be dependent on the employed = techniques for particular network path and so = on.

Do = you think there is a need to define this as a = metric?

Thanks for the advices.
Best = regards,
Mirko = Suznjevic
------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01CE5ADC.6ABD7830-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon May 27 04:31:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD5521F8AEA for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 04:31:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.336 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.336 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J5XwnYvX1noE for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 04:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huecha.unizar.es (huecha.unizar.es [155.210.1.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3ED21F8FB6 for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 04:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by huecha.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4RBUpgC031485; Mon, 27 May 2013 13:30:51 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "=?iso-8859-2?Q?'Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6'?=" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 13:30:57 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <00e901ce5acd$a85177f0$f8f467d0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00EA_01CE5ADE.6BDB0B40" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGLuLI8sTZIOejSJDehyWlbkLfgWpmeJzVQ Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: "'Benoit Claise $bclaise$'" , "'Fred Baker $fred$'" , alan.d.clark@telchemy.com Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Multiplexing period as a metric X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 11:31:05 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01CE5ADE.6BDB0B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just another Idea I had while reading RFC 6390. If you have a look to = "5.2. Definitions of a Performance Metric", you can see that metrics can be defined as the composition of different metrics which can be obtained = from the network. =20 The idea is: it is clear that VoIP quality depends on Delay and Packet = loss. In fact, the MOS depends on that. =20 However, online games react differently to delay, packet loss and = jitter. For example, Quake III works perfectly with 35% packet loss, whereas = Halo stops working with 4% packet loss (1). And (2) talked about defining different weights for calculating the MOS from delay, jitter and loss. =20 Perhaps we could consider the possibility of having an idea of the = service (game) we are multiplexing, and having some heuristics of the influence = of delay and jitter in order to select an appropriate multiplexing value. =20 Well, I don't know if this falls within the scope of the current draft, = but we could keep it in mind. =20 Thanks! =20 Jose =20 (1) S. Zander, G. Armitage, "Empirically Measuring the QoS Sensitivity = of Interactive Online Game Players". In Proc. Australian Telecommunications Networks & Applications Conference (ATNAC 2004), Sydney, Australia, Dec. 2004. =20 (2) Ubicom White Paper, "OPScore, or Online Playability Score: A Metric = for Playability of Online Games with Network Impairments", 2005, http://www.kevingee.biz/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/IP3K-DWPOPSCORE-10.pdf= =20 De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: s=E1bado, 25 de mayo de 2013 10:51 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: [tcmtf] Multiplexing period as a metric =20 Hello everybody, I have a question regarding the Multiplexing period we mention in our proposal.=20 Should we define it firmly as a metric, as instructed in the RFC 6390 Guidelines for Considering New Performance Metric Development? Could = this period be considered as a full metric? For me the most interesting questing in RFC 6390 is: (i) the degree to which its absence would cause significant loss of information on the behavior or performance of the application or system being measured I think that apsence of this metric does limit our information about = system performance. Again Multiplexing period as such now is only defined by = its limit. Also, it would be dependent on the employed techniques for = particular network path and so on. Do you think there is a need to define this as a metric? =20 Thanks for the advices. Best regards, Mirko Suznjevic ------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01CE5ADE.6BDB0B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just another Idea I had while = reading RFC 6390. If you have a look to “5.2. Definitions of a = Performance Metric”, you can see that metrics can be defined as = the composition of different metrics which can be obtained from the = network.

The idea = is: it is clear that VoIP quality depends on Delay and Packet loss. In = fact, the MOS depends on that.

However, = online games react differently to delay, packet loss and jitter. For = example, Quake III works perfectly with 35% packet loss, whereas Halo = stops working with 4% packet loss (1). And (2) talked about defining = different weights for calculating the MOS from delay, jitter and = loss.

Perhaps we = could consider the possibility of having an idea of the service (game) = we are multiplexing, and having some heuristics of the influence of = delay and jitter in order to select an appropriate multiplexing = value.

Well, I = don’t know if this falls within the scope of the current draft, = but we could keep it in mind.

Thanks!

Jose

(1) S. = Zander, G. Armitage, “Empirically Measuring the QoS Sensitivity of = Interactive Online Game Players”. In Proc. Australian = Telecommunications Networks & Applications Conference (ATNAC 2004), = Sydney, Australia, Dec. 2004.

(2) Ubicom = White Paper, “OPScore, or Online Playability Score: A Metric for = Playability of Online Games with Network Impairments”, 2005, = http://www.kevingee.biz/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/IP3K-DWPOPSCORE-10.pdf=

De: = tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de = Mirko Su=BEnjevic
Enviado el: s=E1bado, 25 de mayo de 2013 = 10:51
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: [tcmtf] = Multiplexing period as a metric

Hello everybody,
I have a question regarding the = Multiplexing period we mention in our proposal.
Should we define it firmly as a = metric, as instructed in the RFC 6390 Guidelines for Considering New = Performance Metric Development? Could this period be considered as a = full metric?
For me the most interesting questing in RFC 6390 = is:
(i) the degree to which = its absence would cause significant loss
      of information on the = behavior or performance of the application
      or system being = measured
I = think that apsence of this metric does limit our information about = system performance. Again Multiplexing period as such now is only = defined by its limit. Also, it would be dependent on the employed = techniques for particular network path and so = on.

Do = you think there is a need to define this as a = metric?

Thanks for the advices.
Best = regards,
Mirko = Suznjevic
------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01CE5ADE.6BDB0B40-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Wed May 29 01:09:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4FA21F9193 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 01:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKhjJbUZyQzW for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 01:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5872F21F9180 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 01:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41E5103C13; Wed, 29 May 2013 10:09:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (netlab.nec.de) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas-a.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LMnONqnM74TI; Wed, 29 May 2013 10:09:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (enceladus.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFDE1041E6; Wed, 29 May 2013 10:08:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.1.1.190] (10.1.1.190) by skoll.office.hd (192.168.125.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 29 May 2013 10:07:56 +0200 Message-ID: <51A5B781.2060806@neclab.eu> Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 10:08:33 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130510 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , References: <00b701ce5ac5$7433ebe0$5c9bc3a0$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: <00b701ce5ac5$7433ebe0$5c9bc3a0$@unizar.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.1.1.190] Cc: spencer@wonderhamster.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Three weeks for the deadline for requesting the BOF X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 08:09:15 -0000 Jose, all, On 05/27/2013 12:32 PM, Jose Saldana wrote: > Hi all. > > The cutoff date for sending the BOF proposal request is in three > weeks (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2013.html#IETF87). > > According to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/bof-procedures.html, we need > the next things: > > 1-full name of the BOF: Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic > Flows > > 2- acronym: TCMTF > > 3- suggested names of chairs: still pending The ADs will name the BoF chairs but we are open to any suggestion. > > 4- agenda: We have discussed it in other thread. I think it is > complete with the 5 presentations > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00225.html) > > 5- full description of the BOF: Is this the same as the Charter > draft? > (http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_charter_draft.pdf). > Otherwise we could prepare another text. The charter text should be ok, or put in other words: It is bad sign if the charter text isn't capturing this :) > > �The approval depends on, for instance, Internet-Drafts and list > discussion on the suggested topic.� > > We currently have two Internet-Drafts, and another one (Satellite > scenarios) may also be submitted > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00095.html) > > I have also read again http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5434in order to > check if we are in the right way, and I think so. We have been > preparing this proposal from more than a year ago (the first draft > was presented in Paris in March 2012), and we have a well-discussed > charter draft (consensus was achieved in the list). > > So we need to work a bit on 3 and 5. For me it looks ok to go for BoF, but this will be eventually discussed by the whole IESG in June. Thanks and keep going! Martin -- martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe NEC Europe Limited Registered Office: Athene, Odyssey Business Park, West End Road, London, HA4 6QE, GB Registered in England 2832014 From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Wed May 29 01:10:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50DD721F8F00 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 01:10:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZpB2kECxd1Gr for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 01:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8FA21F8EEA for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 01:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D961041E5; Wed, 29 May 2013 10:10:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (netlab.nec.de) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas-a.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yZYWQzvUhgR1; Wed, 29 May 2013 10:10:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (enceladus.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCFB103C13; Wed, 29 May 2013 10:10:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.1.1.190] (10.1.1.190) by skoll.office.hd (192.168.125.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 29 May 2013 10:09:57 +0200 Message-ID: <51A5B7FA.9050609@neclab.eu> Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 10:10:34 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130510 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <00bc01ce5ac5$862f0a50$928d1ef0$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: <00bc01ce5ac5$862f0a50$928d1ef0$@unizar.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.1.1.190] Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, spencer@wonderhamster.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Other questions necessary for the BOF proposal X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 08:10:59 -0000 On 05/27/2013 12:32 PM, Jose Saldana wrote: > In addition, > http://www.ietf.org/old/2009/instructions/MTG-SLOTS.htmlsays that we > have to include: > > b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears: Transport Area > > c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: > Transport Area meetings, RAI, LISP > > d. Expected Attendance (figures from the previous IETF meeting are > included in > > the message that is sent when scheduling opens): > > e. Special requests: > > f. Number of sessions: 1 > > g. Length of sessions: I think 1 hour should be enough Probably 1.5 hours is better, given your planned schedule. > > Any other ideas for c)? All Transport Area WGs sounds like a good idea. It would be good to double check what WGs out of RAI should be on the conflict list. > > For d), I don�t really know. It depends on the interest we are able > to achieve previously. In the mailing list there are 33 people, but I > have received e-mails from many other people. Any ideas? I will put in 100 to be on the safe side. Martin > > Thanks! > > Jose > -- martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe NEC Europe Limited Registered Office: Athene, Odyssey Business Park, West End Road, London, HA4 6QE, GB Registered in England 2832014 From jsaldana@unizar.es Wed May 29 08:38:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20B921F93BD for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 08:38:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.959, BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G13XouVwozPn for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 08:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isuela.unizar.es (isuela.unizar.es [155.210.1.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D56121F9385 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 08:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by isuela.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4TFcNLC014217; Wed, 29 May 2013 17:38:23 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "=?iso-8859-2?Q?'Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6'?=" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 17:38:34 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <008f01ce5c82$94f178c0$bed46a40$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0090_01CE5C93.587B0C10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGLuLI8sTZIOejSJDehyWlbkLfgWpmhkz2Q Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Multiplexing period as a metric X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 15:38:39 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01CE5C93.587B0C10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mirko, =20 Regarding the use of "jitter", we could better use "delay variation" in = the Draft B: =20 RFC 5481 says: This memo uses the term "delay variation" for metrics that quantify a path's ability to transfer packets with consistent delay. [ RFC3393] and [ Y.1540] both prefer this term. Some refer to this phenomenon as "jitter" (and the buffers that attempt to smooth the variations as de-jitter buffers). Applications of the term "jitter" are much broader than packet transfer performance, with "unwanted signal variation" as a general definition. "Jitter" has been used to describe frequency or phase variations, such as data stream rate variations or carrier signal phase noise. The phrase "delay variation" is almost self-defining and more precise, so it is preferred in this memo. =20 Best regards, =20 Jose =20 De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mirko Su=BEnjevic Enviado el: s=E1bado, 25 de mayo de 2013 10:51 Para: tcmtf@ietf.org Asunto: [tcmtf] Multiplexing period as a metric =20 Hello everybody, I have a question regarding the Multiplexing period we mention in our proposal.=20 Should we define it firmly as a metric, as instructed in the RFC 6390 Guidelines for Considering New Performance Metric Development? Could = this period be considered as a full metric? For me the most interesting questing in RFC 6390 is: (i) the degree to which its absence would cause significant loss of information on the behavior or performance of the application or system being measured I think that apsence of this metric does limit our information about = system performance. Again Multiplexing period as such now is only defined by = its limit. Also, it would be dependent on the employed techniques for = particular network path and so on. Do you think there is a need to define this as a metric? =20 Thanks for the advices. Best regards, Mirko Suznjevic ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01CE5C93.587B0C10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mirko,

Regarding the use of “jitter”, we could better use = “delay variation” in the Draft = B:

RFC 5481 = says:
=A0=A0 This memo uses = the term "delay variation" for metrics that quantify = a
=A0=A0 path's ability = to transfer packets with consistent delay.=A0 [RFC3393]
=A0=A0 and = [Y.1540] both prefer this = term.=A0 Some refer to this phenomenon = as
=A0=A0 = "jitter" (and the buffers that attempt to smooth the = variations as
=A0=A0 = de-jitter buffers).=A0 Applications of the term "jitter" are = much
=A0=A0 broader than = packet transfer performance, with "unwanted = signal
=A0=A0 = variation" as a general definition.=A0 "Jitter" has been = used to
=A0=A0 describe = frequency or phase variations, such as data stream = rate
=A0=A0 variations or = carrier signal phase noise.=A0 The phrase = "delay
=A0=A0 = variation" is almost self-defining and more precise, so it = is
=A0=A0 preferred in = this memo.

Best = regards,

Jose

De: = tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de = Mirko Su=BEnjevic
Enviado el: s=E1bado, 25 de mayo de 2013 = 10:51
Para: tcmtf@ietf.org
Asunto: [tcmtf] = Multiplexing period as a metric

Hello everybody,
I have a question regarding the = Multiplexing period we mention in our proposal.
Should we define it firmly as a = metric, as instructed in the RFC 6390 Guidelines for Considering New = Performance Metric Development? Could this period be considered as a = full metric?
For me the most interesting questing in RFC 6390 = is:
(i) the degree to which = its absence would cause significant loss
      of information on the = behavior or performance of the application
      or system being = measured
I = think that apsence of this metric does limit our information about = system performance. Again Multiplexing period as such now is only = defined by its limit. Also, it would be dependent on the employed = techniques for particular network path and so = on.

Do = you think there is a need to define this as a = metric?

Thanks for the advices.
Best = regards,
Mirko = Suznjevic
------=_NextPart_000_0090_01CE5C93.587B0C10-- From dwing@cisco.com Wed May 29 08:52:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F8721F93D4 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 08:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vEHzG5rHmqb2 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 08:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87F821F93D2 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8428; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1369842740; x=1371052340; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id: references:to; bh=SUhz4hL/hVV+KLgPTZhUtLAYUVJTkBwDi1IADLWCN2I=; b=YiwQY8v8kzamL3YtRphtfr1yAAzC7UfWsq3x45uzHlkeqkoRbF0AKEiJ 2uq8w5Jhn1aEIE91sNNBfsOMU9/WhRa0wz+Rilfio2jOsaaS4fX7+Yysj L/WWmydZt0AXM09NJ9pVJzF74YdM3Rjv6bulEdVRxG8PocH3Zrmi1BN8Y k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AosGAHEjplGrRDoH/2dsb2JhbABagkVEMMF+gQoWdIIjAQEBAwEBAQFrCwULC0YnMAYTCYd+BQ26U48PBAcWgmBhA4kfjhyGHosigy8c X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,765,1363132800"; d="scan'208,217";a="82324586" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 May 2013 15:52:19 +0000 Received: from [10.32.240.194] ([10.32.240.194]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r4TFqIwC014211; Wed, 29 May 2013 15:52:18 GMT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D5084564-ACFE-4AF7-B521-04E5C385E949" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 $1503$) From: Dan Wing In-Reply-To: <00bc01ce5ac5$862f0a50$928d1ef0$@unizar.es> Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 08:52:18 -0700 Message-Id: References: <00bc01ce5ac5$862f0a50$928d1ef0$@unizar.es> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, spencer@wonderhamster.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Other questions necessary for the BOF proposal X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 15:52:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D5084564-ACFE-4AF7-B521-04E5C385E949 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On May 27, 2013, at 3:32 AM, Jose Saldana wrote: > In addition, http://www.ietf.org/old/2009/instructions/MTG-SLOTS.html = says that we have to include: > =20 > b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears: Transport = Area > =20 > c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as = possible: Transport Area meetings, RAI, LISP > =20 > d. Expected Attendance (figures from the previous IETF meeting = are included in > the message that is sent when scheduling opens): > =20 > e. Special requests: > =20 > f. Number of sessions: 1 > =20 > g. Length of sessions: I think 1 hour should be enough > =20 > =20 > Any other ideas for c)? 6lowpan, avtcore, avtext, rtcweb. -d > =20 > For d), I don=92t really know. It depends on the interest we are able = to achieve previously. In the mailing list there are 33 people, but I = have received e-mails from many other people. Any ideas? > =20 > Thanks! > =20 > Jose > =20 > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf --Apple-Mail=_D5084564-ACFE-4AF7-B521-04E5C385E949 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 jsaldana@unizar.es> = wrote:
In addition, http://www.ietf.org/old/2009/instructions/MTG-SLOTS.html says that we have to = include:

        b. AREA under = which Working Group or BOF appears: Transport = Area

        c. CONFLICTS = you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: Transport Area = meetings, RAI, LISP

        d. Expected = Attendance (figures from the previous IETF meeting are included = in
          = ; the message that is sent when scheduling = opens):

        e. Special = requests:

        f. Number of = sessions: 1

        g. Length of = sessions: I think 1 hour should be enough

Any other ideas for = c)?

6lowpan, = avtcore, avtext, = rtcweb.

-d

For d), I don=92t really know. It depends on the interest = we are able to achieve previously. In the mailing list there are 33 = people, but I have received e-mails from many other people. Any = ideas?

Thanks!

Jose

__________________________________= _____________
tcmtf mailing list
List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 07:05:33 -0000 Hi, > All Transport Area WGs sounds like a good idea. It would be good to > double check what WGs out of RAI should be on the conflict list. in addition to Dan's suggestions, I would add MMUSIC as well. Cheers, Gonzalo From jsaldana@unizar.es Fri May 31 00:54:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A2121F93E0 for ; Fri, 31 May 2013 00:54:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.280, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d45sk3sKMwFI for ; Fri, 31 May 2013 00:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isuela.unizar.es (isuela.unizar.es [155.210.1.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82B921F9371 for ; Fri, 31 May 2013 00:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by isuela.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r4V7sFXH022042; Fri, 31 May 2013 09:54:16 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" , "'Martin Stiemerling'" References: <00bc01ce5ac5$862f0a50$928d1ef0$@unizar.es> <51A5B7FA.9050609@neclab.eu> <51A6FA34.9030804@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <51A6FA34.9030804@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 09:54:25 +0200 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <009301ce5dd4$12ccbaa0$38662fe0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQK/TPif+MSfdcRmgf28FgbHCH6EfQKn+3m0AIc+QiSXI5PmMA== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, spencer@wonderhamster.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Other questions necessary for the BOF proposal X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 07:54:28 -0000 And we should also avoid conflict with MPLS. It is included as an option for the "tunneling" layer. Jose > -----Mensaje original----- > De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de > Gonzalo Camarillo > Enviado el: jueves, 30 de mayo de 2013 9:05 > Para: Martin Stiemerling > CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; spencer@wonderhamster.org; jsaldana@unizar.es > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] Other questions necessary for the BOF proposal > > Hi, > > > All Transport Area WGs sounds like a good idea. It would be good to > > double check what WGs out of RAI should be on the conflict list. > > in addition to Dan's suggestions, I would add MMUSIC as well. > > Cheers, > > Gonzalo > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf