From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon Feb 18 00:19:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FA321F8BAF for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:19:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.656 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.917, BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yr3i7FbdrIc3 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:19:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053FF21F8A6F for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r1I8IqNK031256 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:18:58 +0100 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:18:57 +0100 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <004601ce0db0$9ce40f00$d6ac2d00$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01CE0DB8.FEA87700" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac4MRmtoEpacZ323Q7eeXMNhhc5Zuw== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Subject: [tcmtf] Presentations for a possible TCMTF BoF in Berlin X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 08:19:08 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CE0DB8.FEA87700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With this thread I would like to begin a discussion about which presentations would be interesting for the BOF, and who could be in charge of each of them. My ideas: At least these two presentations would be compulsory: - Presentation 1: TCMTF in general. Mainly presenting draft A - Presentation 2: I think it could be about the draft B (Mirko's draft about maximum delays and traffic classification methods) Other possibilities: - Presentation 3: TCMTF in satellite and wireless scenarios (people from DLR). If a draft was available by then, it would be perfect - Presentation 4: Signaling issues Some other ideas? Best regards, Jose ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CE0DB8.FEA87700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

With this thread I would like to begin a discussion about = which presentations would be interesting for the BOF, and who could be = in charge of each of them.

My = ideas:

At least these two presentations would be = compulsory:

- Presentation 1: TCMTF in general. Mainly presenting draft = A

- Presentation 2: I think it could be about the draft B = (Mirko’s draft about maximum delays and traffic classification = methods)

Other possibilities:

- Presentation 3: TCMTF in = satellite and wireless scenarios (people from DLR). If a draft was = available by then, it would be perfect

- Presentation 4: Signaling = issues

Some other ideas?

Best = regards,

Jose

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CE0DB8.FEA87700-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon Feb 18 00:49:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A4821F868B for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:49:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.515 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.515 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R68GGAMpEKRU for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from isuela.unizar.es (isuela.unizar.es [155.210.1.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F3121F852C for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by isuela.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r1I8nT90017660 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:49:30 +0100 From: "Jose Saldana" To: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:49:33 +0100 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <008101ce0db4$df94fa40$9ebeeec0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0082_01CE0DBD.415A2590" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac4MRwkgCzPij6/iQwGz++IiiGsyjg== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Subject: [tcmtf] Some ideas for preparing a successful BoF proposal for Berlin X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 08:49:37 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01CE0DBD.415A2590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, With this e-mail I would like to begin a discussion about the tasks we should deploy so as to prepare a successful BoF proposal for IETF Berlin: 1- We should share the idea with people who would be potentially interested, in order to ask for their feedback and participation in the BOF. In order to make it easier, I have prepared these two things. If you want, you can share them with potentially interested people. - The draft of the charter: http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_charter_draft.pdf. It is also in this message: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00191.html - A presentation: http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_2013.pdf 2- We should think about what presentations would be interesting for the BOF 3- In addition, we should keep on working on the existing drafts: - Improved version of the first draft - Mirko is currently preparing a second version of Draft B (maximum delays and traffic classification methods). - Perhaps we could prepare a first version of "the DLR draft" about TCMTF in satellite and wireless scenarios Some other ideas? Best regards, Jose ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01CE0DBD.415A2590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

With this e-mail I would like to begin a discussion about = the tasks we should deploy so as to prepare a successful BoF proposal = for IETF Berlin:

1- We should share the idea with people who would be = potentially interested, in order to ask for their feedback and = participation in the BOF. In order to make it easier, I have prepared = these two things. If you want, you can share them with potentially = interested people.

- = The draft of the = charter: http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_charter_= draft.pdf. It is also in this message: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00191.= html

- = A presentation: = http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_2013.pdf=

2- We should think about what = presentations would be interesting for the BOF

3- In addition, we should keep = on working on the existing drafts:

= - Improved version of the first = draft

= - Mirko is currently preparing a second = version of Draft B (maximum delays and traffic classification = methods).

= - Perhaps we could prepare a first = version of "the DLR draft" about TCMTF in satellite and = wireless scenarios

Some other ideas?

Best = regards,

Jose

------=_NextPart_000_0082_01CE0DBD.415A2590-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Mon Feb 18 00:49:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3026821F86A8; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:49:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id neZ-o9kYN8c1; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846C921F868B; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 00:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r1I8ndxo023168; Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:49:40 +0100 From: "Jose Saldana" To: References: <003001cdff0e$33658a50$9a309ef0$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: <003001cdff0e$33658a50$9a309ef0$@unizar.es> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:49:41 +0100 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <008601ce0db4$e4af6f60$ae0e4e20$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQH4VYfsQr5DqoVbCGYPdBLd2Eoe0JgoRmuw Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF in IETF87 X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 08:49:46 -0000 Hi all, As you may know, we are thinking about presenting a BOF proposal for = IETF 87 in Berlin (July-August), with the aim of creating a Working Group. I have prepared a presentation about TCMTF, in order to show some = figures with the scenarios, the protocol stack, and some of the obtained = bandwidth savings (for some cases, they are about 70%). The presentation can be found here: http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_2013.pdf The draft of the charter is here: http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/ietf/tcmtf_charter_draft.pdf , = and also in this message: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/msg00191.html The mailing list we are using for preparing the BOF is tcmtf@ietf.org (https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf)=20 If you have any suggestions for improvement, they will be welcome. Best regards, Jose Saldana -----Mensaje original----- De: tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org] En = nombre de Jose Saldana Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 30 de enero de 2013 18:21 Para: tsv-area@ietf.org; tcmtf@ietf.org CC: Gonzalo Camarillo; Martin Stiemerling Asunto: About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF in IETF87 Hi all. With this e-mail I would like to socialize TCMTF (Tunneling, Compressing = and Multiplexing Traffic Flows) within the IETF. We have the idea of = presenting a BOF proposal for IETF 87 in Berlin (July-August), with the aim of = creating a Working Group. In this message I will talk about the problem we are trying to solve, = and I will try to summarize the story of TCMTF within the IETF. - The main idea (see also the Charter proposal below) is to define a = method for saving bandwidth in real-time services which use tiny packets. Some examples of these services are online games, viceoconference, in = addition to VoIP. The overhead of the packets of these services is significant, so = the efficiency can be increased when a number of flows share the same path: packets belonging to different flows can be grouped together, adding a = small multiplexing delay as a counterpart. Currently, there exists an = efficiency improvement method for VoIP using RTP: RFC4170 (TCRTP). It considers = header compression by means of ECRTP; multiplexing by means of PPPMux; and tunneling by means of L2TPv3. However, in the last years, emerging = real-time services which do not use UDP/RTP protocols have become popular: some of them use UDP or even TCP. In addition, new header compression methods = have been defined (ROHC). So widening the scope of RFC4170 in order to = consider not only UDP/RTP but also other protocols is seen as convenient. The = same three layers would be used: header compression, multiplexing and = end-to-end tunneling. Some examples of the scenarios where grouping packets is possible are: aggregation networks of a network operator; a tunnel between two = premises of the same company; the access connection of an Internet Caf=E9 including = a high number of VoIP/gaming flows; an agreement between two network operators could allow them to compress a number of flows they are exchanging = between a pair of Internet Routers; a satellite connection used for collecting the data of a high number of sensors; etc.=20 - The story: * A first draft was written with cooperation of some people from = Transport and RAI Areas. Dan Wing, one of the authors of RFC4170, is also participating on TCMTF from the very beginning. This is the first = version (Feb 2012) http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-saldana-tsvwg-tcmtf-00.txt * It was presented in the TSVWG session (Transport Area) IETF-83, Paris, March 27th 2012: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/minutes/minutes-83-tsvwg.txt. The presentation is here: http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/present-saldana-tsvwg-tcmtf_v2.p= df * A specific mailing list was created (July 10th 2012): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf * A second draft was submitted (Dec 12th 2012), " Maximum Tolerable = Delays when using Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows": http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-suznjevic-tsvwg-mtd-tcmtf/ * This is the current version of the initial draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saldana-tsvwg-tcmtf/. The number = of authors and contributors has been increased. - Many people have participated in the mailing list, mainly from network operators, network equipment manufacturers, a Space Agency (DLR) and Academia. - And finally, this is the current version of the Charter Proposal. We = have discussed and polished it in the list (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcmtf/current/threads.html), and = we have arrived to this agreement: *Description of Working Group v4* 1. In the last years we are witnessing the raise of new real-time = services that use the Internet for the delivery of interactive multimedia applications: VoIP, videoconferencing, telemedicine, video vigilance, = online gaming, etc. Due to the need of interactivity, many of these services = use small packets (some tens of bytes), since they have to send frequent = updates to the other extreme of the communication. Therefore, its overhead is significant, and it becomes even higher when IPv6 is used, since the = basic IPv6 header is twice the size of the IPv4 one. In addition, some other services also send small packets, but they are not delay-sensitive = (e.g., instant messaging, m2m packets sending collected data in sensor networks using wireless or satellite scenarios). 2. The efficiency cannot be increased by the inclusion of a higher = number of samples in a single packet, since this would harm the delay requirements = of the service. But there exist some scenarios in which a number of flows = share the same path. In this case, packets belonging to different flows can be grouped together, adding a small multiplexing delay as a counterpart of bandwidth saving. This delay will have to be maintained under some = threshold in order to grant the delay requirements. Some examples of the scenarios where grouping packets is possible are: aggregation networks of a = network operator; a tunnel between two premises of the same company; the access connection of an Internet Caf=E9 including a high number of VoIP/gaming = flows; an agreement between two network operators could allow them to compress = a number of flows they are exchanging between a pair of Internet Routers; = a satellite connection used for collecting the data of a high number of sensors; etc. 3. VoIP using RTP is a clear example of a real-time service using small packets with high overhead. In order to improve efficiency, RFC4170 = (TCRTP) defined a method for grouping packets when a number of flows share a = path, considering three different layers: header compression by means of = ECRTP; multiplexing by means of PPPMux; tunneling by means of L2TPv3. 4. However, in the last years, emerging real-time services which do not = use UDP/RTP have become popular: some of them use UDP or even TCP. So there = is a need of widening the scope of RFC4170 in order to consider not only = UDP/RTP but also other protocols. The same structure of three layers will be considered: - Header compression: Taking into account that real-time applications = use different headers (RTP/UDP, UDP or even TCP), different protocols can be used: no compression, ECRTP, IPHC and ROHC. - Multiplexing: If a number of flows share a path between an origin and = a destination, a multiplexer can build a bigger packet in which a number = of payloads share a common header. A demultiplexer is then necessary at the = end of the common path, so as to rebuild the packets as they were originally sent. PPPMux will be the main option. Other ones are not discarded. - Tunneling will be used to send the multiplexed packets end-to-end. The options in this layer are L2TP, GRE and MPLS. 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the protocol stack = for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing traffic flows (TCMTF). Since standard protocols are being used at each layer, the signaling methods = of those protocols will be used. Interactions with the Working Groups and = Areas in which these protocols are developed can be expected. However, the development of new compressing, multiplexing or tunneling protocols is = not an objective of this Working Group. In addition, since the current RFC = 4170 would be considered as one of the options, this RFC could be obsoleted. 6. As a first objective, a document (A) will define the different = options which can be used at each layer. Specific problems caused by the = interaction between layers will have to be issued, and suitable extensions may have = to be added to the involved protocols. 7. If a pair multiplexer/de- multiplexer want to establish a tunnel, = they have first to use a mechanism to negotiate which concrete option would = they use in each layer: header compression, multiplexing and tunneling. This = will depend on the protocols that each extreme implements at each level, and = in the scenario. So document (A) will also include a negotiation mechanism = to decide the options to use at each layer (header compression, = multiplexing and tunneling) between multiplexer and de-multiplexer, and a mechanism = to setup/release a tunnel between a multiplexer and a de-multiplexer. 8. As a counterpart of the bandwidth saving, TCMTF may add some delay = and jitter. This is not a problem for the services which are not sensitive = to delay. However, regarding delay-sensitive services, the Working Group = will also develop a document (B) with useful recommendations in order to = decide which packet flows can or can not be multiplexed and how. The document = (B) will present a list of available traffic classification methods which = can be used for identification of the service or application to which a = particular flow belongs, as well as recommendations of the maximum delay and jitter = to be added depending of the identified service or application. 9. If other interesting features are identified, the group would = re-charter and include them, e.g., a mechanism for a multiplexer to discover a de-multiplexer, and vice versa; a mechanism to select an optimal = multiplexer and a de-multiplexer when there are more than one muxer/de-muxer for a = flow; dynamically applying TCMTF: a higher entity in charge of deciding when = and where, applying or not TCMTF, and what kind of TCMTF, and what = multiplexing period. Additional methods for estimating delay would also be required. 10. In addition, specific uses of TCMTF, such as in wireless and = satellite scenarios, could be considered, and it will be studied whether = modifications or extensions are required on the protocol. 11. Interactions with other Working Groups can be expected, since TCMTF = uses already defined protocols for compression, multiplexing and tunneling = (ROHC, PPPMux, MPLS, GRE, L2TP). =20 *Goals and Milestones* Specification of TCMTF protocol stack (A) and signaling mechanisms. Recommendations (B) of using existing traffic classification methods, maximum delay and jitter to add, depending on the service. ------------------ Thank you very much, Jose Saldana > -----Mensaje original----- > De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre=20 > de Martin Stiemerling Enviado el: martes, 29 de enero de 2013 12:54 > Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > CC: wes@mti-systems.com; tcmtf@ietf.org;=20 > Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] Improved version of the TCMTF Charter proposal=20 > (v3) >=20 > Hi Jose, >=20 > On 01/29/2013 11:57 AM, Jose Saldana wrote: > > Yes, Martin. The idea is that many interested people may attend IETF = > > Berlin in July: at least I know about interested people from U. > > Zaragoza, DLR, Telefonica, U. Zagreb, U. Stuttgart, who could attend = > > that BoF. And also co-authors from Cisco (Dan, Michael, and perhaps > > Muthu) may be there. Well, these are the news I have. In addition,=20 > > Mirko and I would also be able to organize the "online games traffic tutorial > there". >=20 > So Berlin is the place to make a BoF. >=20 > > > > So is your idea to have a BoF for discussing the TCMTF WG in Berlin? > > Do you prefer that possibility instead of the "DISPATCH" option that = > > Gonzalo suggested? If you confirm that, we would take it into=20 > > account in order to organize the summer calendar. >=20 > We do not have the DISPATCH option in the Transport Area. >=20 > My proposal is to start socializing the idea within the IETF and to=20 > aim for a BoF > in Berlin. Sending the proposal to the TSVAREA list might be a good = start. >=20 > Martin >=20 > > > > Thanks a lot, > > > > Jose > > PS: This is the option that Gonzalo suggested to Wes (November = 29th): > > "Hi Wes, > > > > sure. When the proponents have a charter proposal ready, feel free=20 > > to send it to the TSVAREA list for comments while informing all the=20 > > other lists. If you want, I can take care of informing the DISPATCH=20 > > list pointing to the relevant message in the TSVAREA list when you = send it. > > > > With respect to where discussions should take place, DISPATCH=20 > > participants will find it easier to send comments on the DISPATCH = list. > > However, if sending comments requires subscribing to a different=20 > > list and sending comments to a different crowd, many may not bother=20 > > commenting. I can monitor the discussions in DISPATCH and send you a = > > summary if needed. Since we are talking about very few lists, it=20 > > should be relatively easy to keep things under control. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Gonzalo" > >> -----Mensaje original----- > >> De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En=20 > >> nombre de Martin Stiemerling Enviado el: martes, 29 de enero de=20 > >> 2013 11:39 > >> Para: FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO > >> CC: wes@mti-systems.com; tcmtf@ietf.org; Matteo.Berioli@dlr.de;=20 > >> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com; jsaldana@unizar.es > >> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] Improved version of the TCMTF Charter proposal > >> (v3) > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> The BoF deadline for the upcoming meeting was Jan 28. > >> > >> Further, my understanding is the relevant proponents cannot make it = > >> to the IETF meeting in March in Orlando, but that there is a plan=20 > >> for the IETF meeting in Berlin in July 2013. > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On 01/29/2013 11:13 AM, FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> In my opinion the WG is needed. TCMTF discussion have=20 > >>> reach enough interest and enough roadmap to have a room for=20 > >>> itself, at least an small room. As Jose said, there are two enough = > >>> active drafts and there is potentially room for three more, and I=20 > >>> think this is a justification by itself. > >>> On the other hand, I also think that we are problem centered. > >>> At least being in a network operation feet I find TCMTF useful = enough. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Fernando Pascual Blanco > >>> Telef=F3nica Global Resources > >>> Network Automation and Dynamization TECHNOLOGY PEOPLE GROUP F=20 > >>> +34913128779 M +34682005168 fpb@tid.es > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 29/01/13 10:56, "Jose Saldana" wrote: > >>> > >>>> Matteo, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks a lot. Well, in this case, I don't agree with you (only in = > >>>> this case). > >>>> > >>>> The idea with TCMTF was to create a "small" Working Group, the=20 > >>>> same way as they are created in other Areas (e.g. RAI). > >>>> > >>>> As Wes said in November, " In my opinion, it is something a=20 > >>>> separate WG should be created to handle, and not something to try = > >>>> to do inside the TSVWG, since there are already a handful of=20 > >>>> things TSVWG is wrestling with, and it creates too much "context=20 > >>>> switching" to have a lot of unrelated topics under work there." > >>>> > >>>> The question is that the TSVWG group has a lot of interesting=20 > >>>> things now, and it would be better to discuss TCMTF separately.=20 > >>>> In fact, since the Summer, we are discussing it in another=20 > >>>> mailing list. This is good, but in fact many people from TSVWG=20 > >>>> have not followed our > >> discussion. > >>>> > >>>> In addition, a lot of time has passed. TCMTF draft was presented=20 > >>>> in Paris > >>>> 10 > >>>> months ago. A lot of people from many institutions have become=20 > >>>> interested on it. We have two drafts and three more = possibilities. > >>>> > >>>> Neither am I an expert on IETF, but I understand that things have = > >>>> some > >>>> "momentum": if you let time go by, people may lose their = interest. > >>>> And curently interest does exist, as we have seen in the list. So = > >>>> why > > not > >> now? > >>>> > >>>> In addition, the new version of the Charter is more=20 > >>>> problem-centered (I hope). > >>>> > >>>> Thanks and best regards, > >>>> > >>>> Jose > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> -----Mensaje original----- > >>>>> De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En > >> nombre > >>>>> de Matteo.Berioli@dlr.de Enviado el: martes, 29 de enero de 2013 > >>>>> 9:18 > >>>>> Para: wes@mti-systems.com; jsaldana@unizar.es > >>>>> CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com;=20 > >>>>> Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu > >>>>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] Improved version of the TCMTF Charter=20 > >>>>> proposal > >>>>> (v3) > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear all, > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't have a huge experience in IETF, but feel it is important = > >>>>> to > >>>> express my > >>>>> opinion this time. > >>>>> I have the feeling building a new WG is a bit premature,=20 > >>>>> considering that > >>>> we > >>>>> just have an Internet draft. > >>>>> I also find the discussion a bit documents-driven, rather than > >>>>> problems- driven. > >>>>> IMHO we could wait a bit, before creating the WG, to see whether = > >>>>> the ideas we have really solve real-world problems. > >>>>> > >>>>> That's it. Hope this helps. > >>>>> > >>>>> Matteo > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > >>>>> Behalf Of Wesley Eddy > >>>>> Sent: 24 January 2013 06:16 > >>>>> To: jsaldana@unizar.es > >>>>> Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org; Gonzalo Camarillo; Martin Stiemerling > >>>>> Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Improved version of the TCMTF Charter=20 > >>>>> proposal > >>>>> (v3) > >>>>> > >>>>> On 1/23/2013 6:58 AM, Jose Saldana wrote: > >>>>>> Hello all. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> After reading the messages in the mailing list, I think we have = > >>>>>> arrived to a solution. Each of the documents has been discussed = > >>>>>> in a separate thread, so I have tried to take everything into account. > >>>>>> Documents (A) and (B) would be in the Charter. Documents (C)=20 > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> (D) would only be announced as possibilities for re-chartering, = > >>>>>> and Document (E) can wait a little. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> In my opinion, this is decent, though here are two criticisms: > >>>>> > >>>>> (1) In my opinion, it focuses too much on documents to be = produced, > >>>>> rather than fully and clearly motivating why the working = group > >>>>> is needed (i.e. to solve a problem, not to develop = documents), > >>>>> how it's scope is delimited (i.e. what it *won't* touch = isn't > >>>>> clear to me, along with what other areas/WGs need to be > >>>>> coordinated with), and what the end-goal is. > >>>>> > >>>>> (2) There's a focus on defining technical solutions prior to the > >>>>> mention of fleshing out and totally defining the use cases = / > >>>>> requirements. In my opinion, that appears backwards :). > >>>>> > >>>>> That said, I'm generally supportive of this work. In my=20 > >>>>> opinion, as an > >>>> AD, we > >>>>> would normally feel better having a BoF before forming a WG, for = > >>>>> two reasons (1) to get other areas (e.g. RAI) to be aware of=20 > >>>>> what's being proposed, and (2) to vet that there really is a=20 > >>>>> community of stakeholders that are engaged to do the work. In=20 > >>>>> this case, I think the 2nd point is evident from the mailing=20 > >>>>> list, and I don't have a concern about it at all. > >>>> I > >>>>> think the 1st point can be addressed through the responsible AD=20 > >>>>> coordinating with the IESG and the directorates or area mailing=20 > >>>>> lists that related areas have. > >>>>> Since I'm going away as an AD though, what really matters at the = > >>>>> moment is what Martin thinks :). > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Wes Eddy > >>>>> MTI Systems > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> tcmtf mailing list > >>>>> tcmtf@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> tcmtf mailing list > >>>>> tcmtf@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> tcmtf mailing list > >>>> tcmtf@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> > >>> Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede=20 > >>> consultar > >> nuestra pol=EDtica de env=EDo y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico = en el=20 > >> enlace situado m=E1s abajo. > >>> This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only=20 > >>> send and > >> receive email on the basis of the terms set out at: > >>> http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu > >> > >> NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe=20 > >> Limited Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3=20 > >> 6BL Registered in England 283=20 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tcmtf mailing list > >> tcmtf@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > > >=20 > -- > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu >=20 > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited = > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL=20 > Registered in England 283=20 > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf From carlberg@g11.org.uk Tue Feb 19 05:17:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9330521F8CBF; Tue, 19 Feb 2013 05:17:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3bCZf-TLC0iD; Tue, 19 Feb 2013 05:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from portland.eukhosting.net (portland.eukhosting.net [92.48.97.5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C6E21F8CB1; Tue, 19 Feb 2013 05:17:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=g11.org.uk; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type; bh=lmMmwltiqZIfgDLUSCw71VK1hTWi/YfiIdKGnWDrBwo=; b=xq5ZgxFyfegkrScX+lCOPR0kOooxs5UZhmezNN/vw5yi23XmA9k2DhAwSO1z38hstX7maorbuQJhhQT4keQrVJCiaoW3neW7Qa87cu5jzmdu2NMGQ5EfpGF2Euk3lVda; Received: from c-98-218-170-72.hsd1.va.comcast.net ([98.218.170.72]:33293 helo=[10.0.1.20]) by portland.eukhosting.net with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1U7n4M-000Yl7-Fl; Tue, 19 Feb 2013 13:17:14 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 $1499$) From: ken carlberg In-Reply-To: <008601ce0db4$e4af6f60$ae0e4e20$@unizar.es> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:17:13 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <50F486E8-69AA-4A9D-970C-1F8EC1372B8D@g11.org.uk> References: <003001cdff0e$33658a50$9a309ef0$@unizar.es> <008601ce0db4$e4af6f60$ae0e4e20$@unizar.es> To: jsaldana@unizar.es X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - portland.eukhosting.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - g11.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: portland.eukhosting.net: acl_c_relayhosts_text_entry: carlberg@g11.org.uk|g11.org.uk X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:46:36 -0800 Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF in IETF87 X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 13:17:19 -0000 Hola Jose, could you expand a bit more on your text in the proposed charter = regarding "signaling methods". Are you speaking in the more general = context of information stored in headers of various protocol up and down = the stack (ie, layers 3, 4, and 5/app)? Or, are you speaking of = concurrent resource signaling protocols like RSVP/RSVP-TE, or path = establishment protocols like MPLS? Or, some combination of both? -ken From Mirko.Suznjevic@fer.hr Thu Feb 21 02:48:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64D9821F8E54 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2013 02:48:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.822, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=1.643] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0gSXFA+0R8rp for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2013 02:48:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.fer.hr (mail5.fer.hr [161.53.72.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C14621F8E4F for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2013 02:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL4.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48ea::a135:48ea]) by MAIL5.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48eb::a135:48eb]) with mapi id 14.02.0309.002; Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:48:51 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Mirko_Su=BEnjevi=E6?= To: "tcmtf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) Thread-Index: Ac4QIQk7g5eAEs3XRtWNa36jlGBO6w== Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 10:48:50 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, hr-HR Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [161.53.19.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C012CC4MAIL4ferhr_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "mramalho@cisco.com" Subject: [tcmtf] Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 10:48:55 -0000 --_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C012CC4MAIL4ferhr_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everybody, I have been surveying the literature of traffic classification approaches a= nd I need an advice for the next version of draft B. The question is regard= ing a "suitable" traffic classification algorithm. What should we aim at? S= peed or extra accuracy? I have been thinking about it and I propose a following solution: 1) Each new traffic flow observed is labeled "highest" priority (short= est multiplexing period) until we classify it. The time spent in this state= might get rather long for the flows with low sending rate. 2) Once classified and then assign it to an appropriate priority (i.e.= , multiplexing period)? Also I have a question regarding sampling rate. Do you think it is possible= that we will have complete samples of traffic or just partial for the clas= sification? Because on very high speed links it is very hard to obtain all = of the traffic for classification. Cheers! Mirko Suznjevic --_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C012CC4MAIL4ferhr_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello everybody,

I have been surveying the liter= ature of traffic classification approaches and I need an advice for the nex= t version of draft B. The question is regarding a "suitable" traf= fic classification algorithm. What should we aim at? Speed or extra accuracy?

I have been thinking about it a= nd I propose a following solution:

1) &nbs= p; Each new traffic flow o= bserved is labeled "highest" priority (shortest multiplexing peri= od) until we classify it. The time spent in this state might get rather lon= g for the flows with low sending rate.

2) &nbs= p; Once classified and the= n assign it to an appropriate priority (i.e., multiplexing period)?

Also I have a question regardin= g sampling rate. Do you think it is possible that we will have complete sam= ples of traffic or just partial for the classification? Because on very hig= h speed links it is very hard to obtain all of the traffic for classification.

Cheers!

Mirko Suznjevic

--_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C012CC4MAIL4ferhr_-- From jsaldana@unizar.es Fri Feb 22 02:39:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483D921F8E2C; Fri, 22 Feb 2013 02:39:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.527 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.527 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6UIHP8wvIV4K; Fri, 22 Feb 2013 02:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D84021F8E20; Fri, 22 Feb 2013 02:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r1MAd9LR012037; Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:39:15 +0100 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "'ken carlberg'" References: <003001cdff0e$33658a50$9a309ef0$@unizar.es> <008601ce0db4$e4af6f60$ae0e4e20$@unizar.es> <50F486E8-69AA-4A9D-970C-1F8EC1372B8D@g11.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <50F486E8-69AA-4A9D-970C-1F8EC1372B8D@g11.org.uk> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:39:16 +0100 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <002801ce10e8$e070f7c0$a152e740$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQH4VYfsQr5DqoVbCGYPdBLd2Eoe0AJlfa8LAYNeKsOYEd4jcA== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF in IETF87 X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:39:25 -0000 Hi Ken, Sorry for the delay. I think you are talking about Paragraph 5: 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the protocol stack for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing traffic flows (TCMTF). Since standard protocols are being used at each layer, the signaling methods of those protocols will be used. Interactions with the Working Groups and Areas in which these protocols are developed can be expected. However, the development of new compressing, multiplexing or tunneling protocols is not an objective of this Working Group. In addition, since the current RFC 4170 would be considered as one of the options, this RFC could be obsoleted. Perhaps this is a bit confusing. When we say "at each layer", we are talking about "tunneling, compressing and multiplexing" layers. Perhaps this can be a bit confusing. What about this?: 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the protocol stack for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing traffic flows (TCMTF). Since standard protocols are being used for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing layers, the signaling methods of those protocols will be used. Interactions with the Working Groups and Areas in which these protocols are developed can be expected. However, the development of new compressing, multiplexing or tunneling protocols is not an objective of this Working Group. In addition, since the current RFC 4170 would be considered as one of the options, this RFC could be obsoleted. Is this what you were asking? Thanks for your feedback. Jose > -----Mensaje original----- > De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de > ken carlberg > Enviado el: martes, 19 de febrero de 2013 14:17 > Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF in > IETF87 > > Hola Jose, > > could you expand a bit more on your text in the proposed charter regarding > "signaling methods". Are you speaking in the more general context of > information stored in headers of various protocol up and down the stack (ie, > layers 3, 4, and 5/app)? Or, are you speaking of concurrent resource > signaling protocols like RSVP/RSVP-TE, or path establishment protocols like > MPLS? Or, some combination of both? > > -ken > > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf From fpb@tid.es Tue Feb 26 05:44:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6878D21F88FB for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 05:44:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id as6ebjqTii0X for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 05:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from correo-bck.tid.es (correo-bck.tid.es [195.235.93.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B916F21F880F for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 05:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Sbrightmailg02.hi.inet [10.95.78.105]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0MIT0042ZY5EV5@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:44:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from vanvan (vanvan.hi.inet [10.95.78.49]) by sbrightmailg02.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id DE.3C.05051.52CBC215; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:44:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MIT0043BY5HV5@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:44:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.165]) by EX10-HTCAS7-MAD.hi.inet ([fe80::4ccc:bab7:84dc:7c6e%15]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:44:04 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:44:03 +0000 From: FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: =?utf-8?B?TWlya28gU3XFvm5qZXZpxIc=?= , "tcmtf@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_w6n4OVrd3Vq34gmE+Md17Q)" Content-language: en-US Accept-Language: en-US, es-ES Thread-topic: [tcmtf] Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) Thread-index: Ac4QIQk7g5eAEs3XRtWNa36jlGBO6wEBk1mA user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.0.121105 X-AuditID: 0a5f4e69-b7fbe6d0000013bb-bc-512cbc25015a X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupikeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42Lhivcz1FXdoxNosHupjMWuzxsYHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVMfPzVaaCe8kV+455NjA2JnYxcnBICJhIHD8e3cXICWSKSVy4 t56ti5GLQ0hgG6PExVN72EASQgI/GCWe9QVBJDYxSrzZNZ0dpJlFQFXi7V0pkBo2AS2J03dX sYDYwgIeEnvud4PZnAJOEosmdLBALFCQ+HPuMQtIq4hAmsTB/34gYWYBXYmZF2eCreIV8JZY 9fMnO4QtKPFj8j2wcmaBXIkD/6ohysUlmltvgk1kFJCVeDd/PiuILSLgKfF031tGiOlGEr+v xIKERQX0JO7PaGWDOEBAYsme88wQtqjEy8f/WCcwis1CsmwWwrJZSJZBhDUl1u/ShwgrSkzp fsgOYWtItM6ZC2WbSWyf+oUJWc0CRo5VjGLFSUWZ6RkluYmZOekGRnoZmXqZeaklmxgh8Ze5 g3H5TpVDjAIcjEo8vA0KOoFCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHiZNgGFeFMSK6tSi/Lji0pzUosPMTJx cEo1MAbPEt5wPNv+SZ3Th0sqB/f9O7NPpjfz39bDSi98pvsw2s8zV9q7PW7v/9Bw1c/yl6c9 PMC/+GrrjZi9c/59SL231+Ph3EwPu+5jzqlxxSJPLbPT/7If8DRafWJ5suCuZ0cmGS2yOShh 3M8adn/7p4dlR8VZDCdNV5PbyF8277aXvo2Ghuhf229KLMUZiYZazEXFiQB6+vJ+nQIAAA== Cc: "mramalho@cisco.com" Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:44:18 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_w6n4OVrd3Vq34gmE+Md17Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpSZWdhcmRpbmcgdGhlIGNsYXNzaWZpY2F0aW9uIGFwcHJvYWNoOiBJIHRoaW5r 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([173.37.113.190]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Feb 2013 20:06:59 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com [173.36.12.78]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r1QK6xaQ012734 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:06:59 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x12.cisco.com ([169.254.2.134]) by xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com ([173.36.12.78]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:06:59 -0600 From: "Michael Ramalho (mramalho)" To: FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO , =?utf-8?B?TWlya28gU3XFvm5qZXZpxIc=?= , "tcmtf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tcmtf] Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) Thread-Index: Ac4QIQk7g5eAEs3XRtWNa36jlGBO6wEBk1mAAAxYIrA= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:06:59 +0000 Message-ID: References:

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tests=[AWL=-0.411, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=1.643] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F5R7NH5Ghuqu for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.fer.hr (mail.fer.hr [161.53.72.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9ECA21F84F9 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL4.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48ea::a135:48ea]) by MAIL.fer.hr ([2002:a135:48e9::a135:48e9]) with mapi id 14.02.0309.002; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:23:56 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?TWlya28gU3XFvm5qZXZpxIc=?= To: "Michael Ramalho (mramalho)" , FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO , "tcmtf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tcmtf] Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) Thread-Index: Ac4QIQk7g5eAEs3XRtWNa36jlGBO6wEBk1mAAAxYIrAAHKqGwA== Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:23:56 +0000 Message-ID: References:

In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [161.53.19.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C015537MAIL4ferhr_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:24:06 -0000 --_000_E004A7C54DE04F4BB87DB9F32308DA5C015537MAIL4ferhr_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBhZHZpY2VzLiBJIHdpbGwgdXNlIHRoZSBzdWdnZXN0ZWQg dGVybWlub2xvZ3kgaW4gdGhlIGRyYWZ0LiBUaGUgcHJvY2VkdXJlIHlvdSBkZXNjcmliZWQgaXMg aG93IEkgZW52aXNpb25lZCBpdCB0byBmdW5jdGlvbiBhcyB3ZWxsLg0KV2Ugd2lsbCBtYWtlIHN1 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with ESMTP id <0MIV00IPBJCACS@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:19:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from tid (tid.hi.inet [10.95.64.10]) by sbrightmailg01.hi.inet (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 72.73.01293.AADDD215; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:19:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from correo.tid.es (mailhost.hi.inet [10.95.64.100]) by tid.hi.inet (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0MIV00IP5JC9CS@tid.hi.inet> for tcmtf@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:19:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from EX10-MB2-MAD.hi.inet ([169.254.2.165]) by EX10-HTCAS7-MAD.hi.inet ([fe80::4ccc:bab7:84dc:7c6e%15]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:19:21 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:19:20 +0000 From: FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.95.64.115] To: =?utf-8?B?TWlya28gU3XFvm5qZXZpxIc=?= , "Michael Ramalho (mramalho)" , "tcmtf@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_tLME5lH683DKa1E0z9TEzw)" Content-language: en-US Accept-Language: en-US, es-ES Thread-topic: [tcmtf] Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) Thread-index: Ac4QIQk7g5eAEs3XRtWNa36jlGBO6wEBk1mAAAxYIrAAHKqGwAACIjwA user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.0.121105 X-AuditID: 0a5f4068-b7f006d00000050d-7f-512dddaadc60 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpjkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42Lhinfg0l11VzfQ4O4HHotdnzcwOjB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoErY8r59cwF0zqZKqau2sPYwDiziamLkZNDQsBEYt2xCcwQtpjE hXvr2boYuTiEBDYwSjw/+p8ZwvnBKPF1139GCGcTo8TNVUvAWlgEVCVW7upnA7HZBLQkTt9d xQJiCwt4SOy53w1mcwo4SRyav4EFYoWCxJ9zj1lABokIzGaUOH1sE9gdvALeEovvfoGyBSV+ TL4HVMTBwSyQK9F3XhIkzCwgLtHcehNsDqOArMS7+fNZQWwRAU+Jp/veMkLYbhJ35kLcJiqg J3F/RisbxF4BiSV7zkO9KSrx8vE/1gmMorOQbJuFsG0Wkm0QYU2J9bv0IcKKElO6H7JD2BoS rXPmskOUmEmceJGFrGQBI8cqRrHipKLM9IyS3MTMnHQDQ72MTL3MvNSSTYyQuMvYwbh8p8oh RgEORiUe3p9XdAKFWBPLiitzDzFKcDArifDantcNFOJNSaysSi3Kjy8qzUktPsTIxMEp1cDI E95v8KV+5alP95yjPZtebGHdv6fPPMyy3WoO9/bC//NXuLzb9ObUxO+/U/2Vrdz2zEwsj/kf YpbZveDu67iDH8TmqE6LWvWpewK/bczEhmTGHL7/wh73pBuNFNxqo9VOT693+Hbz51bHnnM3 NjzefKG4Y+mKFzc+7Sl882jNXz2ekK+Z4kZ8SizFGYmGWsxFxYkAMHr4kJkCAAA= Subject: Re: [tcmtf] Traffic classification approach for tcmtf (Draft B) X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:19:33 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_tLME5lH683DKa1E0z9TEzw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCkkgZnVsbHkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBNaWNoYWVswrRzIG9waW5pb24sIGEgZ3VpZGFuY2Ug b24gaG93IHRvIGFjaGlldmUgYW4gb3B0aW1hbCBiZWhhdmlvciBzaG91bGQgYmUgZW5vdWdoLg0K DQpSZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpGZXJuYW5kbyBQYXNjdWFsIEJsYW5jbw0KVGVsZWbDs25pY2EgR2xvYmFs IFJlc291cmNlcw0KTmV0d29yayBBdXRvbWF0aW9uIGFuZCBEeW5hbWl6YXRpb24NClRFQ0hOT0xP 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Wed Feb 27 07:23:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC7221F84BB; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 07:23:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3ZwKM-6iJ7L; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 07:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from portland.eukhosting.net (portland.eukhosting.net [92.48.97.5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E1921F84B2; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 07:23:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=g11.org.uk; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type; bh=7P3lFiwvOq2U/VjTU9sxnoC+kPRrDTkZYT8vhgkevTQ=; b=fnQ/VsMd8r4DIy99WBbY4b60cMwQmS7PMMZ3UKKWuMb3A1PjnwfYyouARD0aPXGSdwdE+jvWCss9OuOsmuTRWacWhiD2vzHA7F+0TLKGQDQNNT8YLkdOyZ4kFFSp03gx; Received: from c-98-218-170-72.hsd1.va.comcast.net ([98.218.170.72]:36211 helo=[10.0.1.20]) by portland.eukhosting.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UAiqg-002wUN-AB; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:23:15 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 $1499$) From: ken carlberg In-Reply-To: <002801ce10e8$e070f7c0$a152e740$@unizar.es> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:23:12 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <003001cdff0e$33658a50$9a309ef0$@unizar.es> <008601ce0db4$e4af6f60$ae0e4e20$@unizar.es> <50F486E8-69AA-4A9D-970C-1F8EC1372B8D@g11.org.uk> <002801ce10e8$e070f7c0$a152e740$@unizar.es> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - portland.eukhosting.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - g11.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: portland.eukhosting.net: acl_c_relayhosts_text_entry: carlberg@g11.org.uk|g11.org.uk Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF in IETF87 X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:23:19 -0000 Hola Jose, sorry for the tardy reply. The altered text below is helpful, thanks. With respect to your candidate deliverables, it appears that you have = listed two for the proposed group: (A) a document that describes options = and negotiation mechanisms, and (B) a document describing = recommendations of which packet types should be multiplexed and a list = fo traffic classification methods. Have you considered a third document = that presents a more encompassing architecture or framework that would = include sample scenarios upon which your deliverables A & B are aimed = at? My impression is that you may want to point the reader of documents = A & B to the same reference model, and instead of repeating the same = text, it may be helpful to separate this into a separate document.=20 Also, would section 9 of your proposed charter lead one to consider a = requirements document? Many times, new groups start with a requirements = document, but since you have a good focus of what you want to = accomplish, perhaps your last deliverable could be a requirements = document that would guide any future work. -ken ps, I don't want to advocate more work, but rather just have you = consider other possibilities (and feel free to shoot them down :-) On Feb 22, 2013, at 5:39 AM, Jose Saldana wrote: > Hi Ken, >=20 > Sorry for the delay. I think you are talking about Paragraph 5: >=20 > 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the protocol = stack for > tunneling, compressing and multiplexing traffic flows (TCMTF). Since > standard protocols are being used at each layer, the signaling methods = of > those protocols will be used. Interactions with the Working Groups and = Areas > in which these protocols are developed can be expected. However, the > development of new compressing, multiplexing or tunneling protocols is = not > an objective of this Working Group. In addition, since the current RFC = 4170 > would be considered as one of the options, this RFC could be = obsoleted. >=20 > Perhaps this is a bit confusing. When we say "at each layer", we are = talking > about "tunneling, compressing and multiplexing" layers. Perhaps this = can be > a bit confusing. What about this?: >=20 > 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the protocol = stack for > tunneling, compressing and multiplexing traffic flows (TCMTF). Since > standard protocols are being used for tunneling, compressing and > multiplexing layers, the signaling methods of those protocols will be = used. > Interactions with the Working Groups and Areas in which these = protocols are > developed can be expected. However, the development of new = compressing, > multiplexing or tunneling protocols is not an objective of this = Working > Group. In addition, since the current RFC 4170 would be considered as = one of > the options, this RFC could be obsoleted. >=20 > Is this what you were asking? >=20 > Thanks for your feedback. >=20 > Jose >=20 >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre = de >> ken carlberg >> Enviado el: martes, 19 de febrero de 2013 14:17 >> Para: jsaldana@unizar.es >> CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org >> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF = in >> IETF87 >>=20 >> Hola Jose, >>=20 >> could you expand a bit more on your text in the proposed charter = regarding >> "signaling methods". Are you speaking in the more general context of >> information stored in headers of various protocol up and down the = stack > (ie, >> layers 3, 4, and 5/app)? Or, are you speaking of concurrent = resource >> signaling protocols like RSVP/RSVP-TE, or path establishment = protocols > like >> MPLS? Or, some combination of both? >>=20 >> -ken >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> tcmtf mailing list >> tcmtf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf >=20 From jsaldana@unizar.es Thu Feb 28 02:33:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E1121F88CF; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 02:33:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cV3iwfPh1eNM; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 02:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ortiz.unizar.es (ortiz.unizar.es [155.210.1.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BF921F8AD4; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 02:33:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by ortiz.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r1SAXEuw005061; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:33:14 +0100 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "'ken carlberg'" References: <003001cdff0e$33658a50$9a309ef0$@unizar.es> <008601ce0db4$e4af6f60$ae0e4e20$@unizar.es> <50F486E8-69AA-4A9D-970C-1F8EC1372B8D@g11.org.uk> <002801ce10e8$e070f7c0$a152e740$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:33:19 +0100 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <007101ce159f$06c8cf50$145a6df0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQH4VYfsQr5DqoVbCGYPdBLd2Eoe0AJlfa8LAYNeKsMC4CsVHwL3AXLGl+yOu3A= Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: tcmtf@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF in IETF87 X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:33:23 -0000 Thanks, Ken. The idea is this: A main document (A) in which we explain the method, the scenarios and = the minimum signaling issues in order to make it work. The idea is that = document (A) would be self-contained. Since we are not defining new protocols = (i.e. already existing compressing, multiplexing and tunneling protocols are = to be used), we understand that this can be done in a single document. It = would include: 1- Protocol stack (it would be the "reference model") 2- a negotiation mechanism to decide the options to use at each layer 3- a mechanism to setup/release a tunnel between a multiplexer and a de-multiplexer Of course, another approach could be separating 1 from 2&3. However, we think this is not necessary since the method is not too complicated. Document (B) would only contain recommendations of how to better use the method proposed in document (A), i.e., classification and maximum = delays. So clearly document (B) would totally depend on the reference model of document (A). The idea of point 9 is to talk about some other interesting ideas which = are considered as "future work": - a mechanism for a multiplexer to discover a de-multiplexer - mechanism to select an optimal multiplexer and a de-multiplexer when = there are more than one muxer/de-muxer for a flow - dynamically applying TCMTF - etc. What do you think? Thanks again for your feedback. Thinking and explaining things is always = a good exercise! Jose > -----Mensaje original----- > De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre = de > ken carlberg > Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 27 de febrero de 2013 16:23 > Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org > Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about TCMTF = in > IETF87 >=20 > Hola Jose, >=20 > sorry for the tardy reply. The altered text below is helpful, thanks. >=20 > With respect to your candidate deliverables, it appears that you have listed > two for the proposed group: (A) a document that describes options and > negotiation mechanisms, and (B) a document describing recommendations > of which packet types should be multiplexed and a list fo traffic classification > methods. Have you considered a third document that presents a more > encompassing architecture or framework that would include sample > scenarios upon which your deliverables A & B are aimed at? My = impression is > that you may want to point the reader of documents A & B to the same > reference model, and instead of repeating the same text, it may be = helpful > to separate this into a separate document. >=20 > Also, would section 9 of your proposed charter lead one to consider a > requirements document? Many times, new groups start with a > requirements document, but since you have a good focus of what you = want > to accomplish, perhaps your last deliverable could be a requirements > document that would guide any future work. >=20 > -ken >=20 > ps, I don't want to advocate more work, but rather just have you = consider > other possibilities (and feel free to shoot them down :-) >=20 >=20 > On Feb 22, 2013, at 5:39 AM, Jose Saldana wrote: >=20 > > Hi Ken, > > > > Sorry for the delay. I think you are talking about Paragraph 5: > > > > 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the protocol > > stack for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing traffic flows > > (TCMTF). Since standard protocols are being used at each layer, the > > signaling methods of those protocols will be used. Interactions with > > the Working Groups and Areas in which these protocols are developed > > can be expected. However, the development of new compressing, > > multiplexing or tunneling protocols is not an objective of this > > Working Group. In addition, since the current RFC 4170 would be > considered as one of the options, this RFC could be obsoleted. > > > > Perhaps this is a bit confusing. When we say "at each layer", we are > > talking about "tunneling, compressing and multiplexing" layers. > > Perhaps this can be a bit confusing. What about this?: > > > > 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the protocol > > stack for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing traffic flows > > (TCMTF). Since standard protocols are being used for tunneling, > > compressing and multiplexing layers, the signaling methods of those > protocols will be used. > > Interactions with the Working Groups and Areas in which these > > protocols are developed can be expected. However, the development of > > new compressing, multiplexing or tunneling protocols is not an > > objective of this Working Group. In addition, since the current RFC > > 4170 would be considered as one of the options, this RFC could be > obsoleted. > > > > Is this what you were asking? > > > > Thanks for your feedback. > > > > Jose > > > >> -----Mensaje original----- > >> De: tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcmtf-bounces@ietf.org] En = nombre > >> de ken carlberg Enviado el: martes, 19 de febrero de 2013 14:17 > >> Para: jsaldana@unizar.es > >> CC: tcmtf@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org > >> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about = TCMTF > >> in > >> IETF87 > >> > >> Hola Jose, > >> > >> could you expand a bit more on your text in the proposed charter > >> regarding "signaling methods". Are you speaking in the more = general > >> context of information stored in headers of various protocol up and > >> down the stack > > (ie, > >> layers 3, 4, and 5/app)? Or, are you speaking of concurrent > >> resource signaling protocols like RSVP/RSVP-TE, or path = establishment > >> protocols > > like > >> MPLS? Or, some combination of both? > >> > >> -ken > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tcmtf mailing list > >> tcmtf@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tcmtf mailing list > tcmtf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf From jsaldana@unizar.es Thu Feb 28 02:48:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcmtf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513E521F8B98; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 02:48:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fXfc2Hu4qhDs; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 02:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from huecha.unizar.es (huecha.unizar.es [155.210.1.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742EF21F855A; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 02:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) by huecha.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id r1SAmJQi021774; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:48:19 +0100 From: "Jose Saldana" To: , Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:48:23 +0100 Organization: Universidad de Zaragoza Message-ID: <007201ce15a1$23a92a50$6afb7ef0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0073_01CE15A9.856E2E90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac4Vny90JVbG7h9lQ1272fWL6EWZ2A== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Ruiz_Mas?= , DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA , Luigi Iannone , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Juli=E1n_Fern=E1ndez_Navajas?= Subject: [tcmtf] Interesting results of the combination of LISP and TCMTF X-BeenThere: tcmtf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsaldana@unizar.es List-Id: "Tunneling Compressed Multiplexed Traffic Flows $TCMTF$ discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:48:28 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01CE15A9.856E2E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all. =20 Some months ago, Luigi Iannone suggested the idea of =93putting = together=94 TCMTF and LISP. TCMTF uses Tunneling, Multiplexing and header = Compression of Traffic Flows (TCMTF) in order to save bandwidth and to reduce the = amount of packets per time unit. (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saldana-tsvwg-tcmtf/) =20 We have done some simulations, and we have just got accepted a paper to = be presented in IEEE ICC 2013 conference in Budapest in June. A draft = version is here: = http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/budapest_ICC_2013_in_proc.pdf =20 Taking into account that encapsulation is necessary in LISP, bandwidth = can be drastically reduced in flows using small packets, which are typical = of many real-time services, like online games, VoIP, etc. by means of = header compression and multiplexing of a number of packets. =20 The headers added by LISP are 36 bytes (20 IP + 8 UDP + 8 LISP), and = this would be significant for small packets (e.g., a VoIP packet can be 60 = bytes long). So multiplexing together a number of packets traveling between = the same pair of networks can save a lot of bandwidth. We have obtained = these results: =20 - VoIP: 70% saving - First Person Shooter games: 54% saving - MMORPG games: up to 80% saving - Grouping TCP ACKs: 45% saving =20 We have also studied the ability of the LISP framework to manage the signaling of TCMTF options. =20 We think these results are interesting, so we wanted to share them here. Feel free to read the paper and discuss about it. =20 Thanks a lot, =20 Jose Saldana =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01CE15A9.856E2E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = all.

Some months ago, Luigi Iannone = suggested the idea of “putting together” TCMTF and LISP. = TCMTF uses Tunneling, Multiplexing and header Compression of Traffic = Flows (TCMTF) in order to save bandwidth and to reduce the amount of = packets per time unit. (http:= //datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saldana-tsvwg-tcmtf/)

We have done some simulations, and we have just got = accepted a paper to be presented in IEEE ICC 2013 conference in Budapest = in June. A draft version is here:

http://diec.unizar.es/~jsaldana/personal/budapest_ICC_2013_i= n_proc.pdf

Taking into account that encapsulation is necessary in = LISP, bandwidth can be drastically reduced in flows using small packets, = which are typical of many real-time services, like online games, VoIP, = etc. by means of header compression and multiplexing of a number of = packets.

The headers added by LISP=A0 are 36 bytes (20 IP + 8 UDP + = 8 LISP), and this would be significant for small packets (e.g., a VoIP = packet can be 60 bytes long). So multiplexing together a number of = packets traveling between the same pair of networks can save a lot of = bandwidth. We have obtained these results:

- VoIP: 70% = saving

- = First Person Shooter games: 54% saving

- MMORPG games: up to 80% = saving

- = Grouping TCP ACKs: 45% saving

We have also studied the ability of = the LISP framework to manage the signaling of TCMTF = options.

We think these results are interesting, so we wanted to = share them here. Feel free to read the paper and discuss about = it.

Thanks a lot,

Jose Saldana

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