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> From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 10:44:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20427 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81DLFf2067949; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:21:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81DLF8j067948; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:21:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i81DLESE067939 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 11371 invoked by uid 0); 1 Sep 2004 13:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.149.69) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 13:21:13 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901091956.08335d78@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:21:46 -0400 To: ietf-smime@imc.org From: Russ Housley Subject: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate review of the document that was posted earlier this week: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt. My intention is to request that this document be published as a standards-track RFC. Thanks, Russ From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 11:19:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26010 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81Et7RG077174; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81Et7fM077173; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81Et7R9077145 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399E134004; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:55:02 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02614-04; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:55:02 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E500333F65; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:55:01 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EECF37745; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:55:01 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2WVz-00068j-00; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 02:55:11 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901091956.08335d78@mail.binhost.com> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 02:55:11 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ Housley writes: >Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate review of >the document that was posted earlier this week: draft-housley- >binarytime-00.txt. 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No conversion to operating system representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? The INTEGER is not limited to four octets. Did you read it that way? Russ At 10:55 AM 9/1/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: >Russ Housley writes: > > >Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate > review of > >the document that was posted earlier this week: draft-housley- > >binarytime-00.txt. > >Uhh... what on earth motivated this? It's a time format that's even more >limited than UTCTime. > >Peter. 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No conversion to operating system >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... Peter. 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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 13:48:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14685 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HWX60088995; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:32:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81HWXTE088994; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:32:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i81HWWxR088987 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 27643 invoked by uid 0); 1 Sep 2004 17:32:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.90.67) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 17:32:35 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901132843.08668ac0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:33:24 -0400 To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901112207.084c8350@mail.binhost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system > >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? > >It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. Not so. A 4-octet value takes us to 2038. After that a 5-octet value is needed. Many operating systems already use a 64-bit value internally. >The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats >have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a >format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What >real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep >the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the >Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would >feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID >value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... Any of these is possible, but a choice defeats the whole point, which is to avoid complex conversion. Russ From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 14:00:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16542 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HaJm9089205; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:36:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81HaJCW089204; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:36:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HaIWa089197 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i81HaCN21085; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:36:12 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:36:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i81HaBL29979; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:36:11 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:36:11 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409011736.i81HaBL29979@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: housley@vigilsec.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system > >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? > > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. Some thoughts: The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds since 1.1.70, ... Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while displaying a generaizedtime does not. The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway because of dates in certs. > > The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats > have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a > format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What > real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep > the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the > Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would > feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID > value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... > > Peter. > > From chuckhutchinson_wk@marieberg.ac Wed Sep 1 14:01:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16645 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [61.102.101.102] (helo=pattosoft.com.au) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2ZSf-0001zX-38 for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:03:58 -0400 Received: from 129.87.88.177 by smtp.marieberg.ac; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:05:49 +0000 Message-ID: <392e01c4904e$d8e0da80$ad30808e@pattosoft.com.au> From: "Chuck Hutchinson" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Want to lose up to 19% weight. Try Adipren! 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Get the facts about all-natural Adipren: http://www.sister31.com/ solely Australia following [Web architecture HTTP number exchanged From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 14:23:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18142 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HxLvd090922; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81HxLBj090921; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HxKfd090915 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:59:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i81HxMN21543; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:59:22 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:59:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i81HxMf00073; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:59:22 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:59:22 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409011759.i81HxMf00073@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: housley@vigilsec.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I have forgotten: The proposed format and SMIME attributes serves the same purpose as an existing one, i.e. id-signingTime Nothing is said about what to do when both attributes are present, how they should be treated when available together. One probably wants to set both, so instead of saving data and cpu, one will add. > > > >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system > > >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? > > > > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. > > Some thoughts: > > The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. > > The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just > happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their > asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. > > There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds > since 1.1.70, ... > > Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while > displaying a generaizedtime does not. > > The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the > size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway > because of dates in certs. > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 14:51:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA20784 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IYUTn093634; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81IYUKD093633; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IYTDl093626 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.214]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i81IYWUN012498; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:34:33 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i81IYNR4023289; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:34:32 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: , Cc: "'Anders Rundgren'" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:36:32 -0400 Message-ID: <002901c49052$9e14ae50$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00ba01c48047$3571cba0$0500a8c0@arport> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i81IYUDl093628 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stefan: I am also concerned about requiring that the sMIMECapabilities be in the certificate itself, although I agree that something to help get initial sMIMECapabilities is required. Jim Schaad's "Certificate Distribution Specification" expired draft (draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt) touched on this as well. If sMIMECapabilities is bound to the certificate, certificates may need to be re-issued more frequently (when capabilities information is changed). This will create additional work for the CA, and CRLs will inevitably increase in size (these are bad things). (Correct me if I am wrong: If the capabilities for an organization changes, all of the certs will need to be reissued!) Also since the certificate is signed by the CA, sMIMECapabilities in this proposal is signed by the CA and not the end-entity (as in existing method). This may sometimes be beneficial since it allows the CA to have added control over the use of algorithms and key lengths. The change from the end-user signing to the CA signing has security implications and should be noted* (possibly in the security section). Some of the issues could be addressed by allowing the use of a dynamic method as well. One or more methods could be specified, XKMS + DNS, LDAP, and/or HTTP for example. One available method could be an "immediate" method, allowing those CAs who do not mind putting sMIMECapabilities within their certificates to do so (as currently proposed). I also wonder how many cases there are when only the sMIMECapabilities is required (and not certificates & paths as well). If you don't have a certificate, an extension won't help (you need certificates and sMIMECapabilities both). If you have a certificate from a previous message you likely also received the sMIMECapabilities in a SignerInfo. If you obtained the certificate using LDAP or some other means you might logically but arguably expect to access the sMIMECapabilities the same way. If your software threw away the S/MIME capabilities (rather than caching them like the certificate) adding them to the certificate is a peculiar way to fix the software! Also of course for dual keypair systems, there may be situations where you have the signing certificate but not the encryption one, in which case you want both sMIMECapabilities and the encryption cert - and I hope the proposal is not to embed the encryption cert inside the signing cert!!! So maybe the method used to get sMIMECapabilities should also be able to return the certificates & paths - to make it more generally useful - in which case Jim Schaad's proposal - and allowing any dynamic access method including XKMS + DNS, LDAP, HTTP, . - may be worth another look. Sorry for the long winded reply. But an easier method to get certs, paths and sMIMECapabilities is needed. Tony * This may also include a discussion about using values provided in certificates in preference to values obtained by other means (e.g. when both a certificate and the SignerInfo contain sMIMECapabilities). For example, the first paragraph of Section 3 in the current proposal may not always be correct: the sMIMECapabilities list signed by the CA (e.g. provided in a certificate) may be more trusted than the list provided in a message even if it appears the message was more recent. In some applications the increased trust (or more correctly, the increased authority of the signor) may take preference. | -----Original Message----- | From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org | [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren | Sent: August 12, 2004 4:35 AM | To: ietf-smime@imc.org | Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | | | | I have no comments on the "design" in this draft. | | However, I seriously question the idea to put client software | capabilities in certificates. | | Why? | - because issuers may not have this information | - because users may have multiple clients | - because static solutions are limiting | | If we begin to use dynamic methods like XKMS + DNS to find | public keys of recipients, SCEXT represents a step in another | direction. | | Due to the limited utility of true end-to-end encryption in | corporate environments (the DOMSEC RFC shows a few good | reasons to that), as well as the de-facto use of the web as a | distribution medium for e-government purposes (which is a | much easier solution than S/MIME), I believe that Microsoft | should focus on making a gateway e-mail standard a reality | rather than patching a system that never will play a major | role and actually mostly creates problems for end-users and | system administrators. | | Anders | | From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 14:54:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21092 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IaaMn093900; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81IaadW093899; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from stingray.missi.ncsc.mil (stingray.missi.ncsc.mil [144.51.50.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IaZ3Z093891 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil) Message-ID: <200409011832.i81IWDIQ004178@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:36:13 -0400 From: "David P. Kemp" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann CC: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2004 18:36:19.0511 (UTC) FILETIME=[92A34C70:01C49052] Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, Your criticism is what seems bizarre. The one sentence omitted from what you quote below states that it DOES go beyond 2038. An INTEGER number of seconds since Jan 1 1970 will go until the heat death of the universe and beyond. The question for more rational discussion is: is a binary signing time value useful? If the answer is yes, the only remaining questions are epoch and resolution. Since there were very few CMS digital signatures in existence before 1970, using an epoch of 1600 or 1904 would seem to offer little benefit. It is also difficult to articulate a rationale for specifying the moment of signing to nanosecond resolution. The reason for a binary attribute in the first place is primarily space efficiency. CMS can be used to sign large numbers of small objects, and certificates don't need to accompany those objects. ASN.1 structures can be PER encoded, but PER offers minimal compression of UTC or Generalized Times (7 bits vs. 8 per character). Once you have squeezed out all bits permitted by the standard, you look for additional opportunities. Defining a binary time attribute is one such opportunity. Will this be useful for S/MIME? Of course not. But it is useful for some other applications of CMS. Dave Peter Gutmann wrote: >Russ Housley writes: > > > >>The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system >>representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? >> >> > >It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. > >The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats >have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a >format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What >real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep >the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the >Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would >feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID >value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... > >Peter. > > > > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 15:28:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24066 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81I86Sh091733; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81I86ju091732; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i81I85gr091726 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 4545 invoked by uid 0); 1 Sep 2004 18:08:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.90.67) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 18:08:08 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901135919.085d6358@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:04:41 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409011736.i81HaBL29979@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409011736.i81HaBL29979@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system > > >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? > > > > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. > >Some thoughts: > >The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. > >The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just >happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their >asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. Yep. >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds >since 1.1.70, ... I agree. However, very simple math can be used to make the conversion. However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit more complicated. I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary routines to handle this in a few lines of code. >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while >displaying a generaizedtime does not. Display to a human is not the biggest concern. Date comparison is a much bigger deal to me. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway >because of dates in certs. Yep. I think that BinaryTime has other uses too. Russ From bryananaya@confidentialinternet.com Wed Sep 1 15:32:29 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24525 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:32:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host-116-76.securenetexchange.com ([69.42.116.76]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2asc-0000ge-B8 for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:34:51 -0400 From: "Matchmaker News" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: Single? Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:32:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@thobezi.confidentialinternet.com> X-Spam-Score: 6.9 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit






From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 15:41:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25587 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81JMQSa097111; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81JMQtY097110; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.107]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81JMOfI097097 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anders.rundgren@telia.com) Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6544637E60; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518EB37E52; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from arport (t8o913p42.telia.com [213.64.26.162]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9990837E50; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:22:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <010001c49058$6897b0f0$0500a8c0@arport> From: "Anders Rundgren" To: "Craig McGregor" Cc: "Sean P. Turner" , "SMIME" References: <14270A31340CCF46A050FEC25B8F50A008C6A32B@juliet.hamlet.treasury.govt.nz> Subject: Re: Charter Modification Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:18:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanx Craig, I was not aware of the mailsig (WG?) list. That means this is outside of the S/MIME charter I suppose? BTW, here is a "competitor": http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/19jul04.htm What I have seen little of, is how this can scale without having a gateway PKI in place. Peer-to-peer certification does not seem like a terribly good idea. Regards Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig McGregor To: Anders Rundgren Cc: Sean P. Turner ; SMIME Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 23:23 Subject: RE: Charter Modification Anders, I wasn't at the BOF you mentioned but as I understand it the BOF was scoped for signing/authenticating e-mail. Draft Charter: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00000.html Minutes: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00025.html S/MIME gateways could use all existing S/MIME specifications and not be limited to only signing outbound e-mail. e.g. Encryption over the untrusted networks that transports messages between domains that might otherwise have some level of trust. I would also like to see an interoperable S/MIME Gateway||Domains||Entities standard or specification. I have had some past experience at making a limited set of S/MIME gateway software talk to each other reliably. This was more challenging at that time than it should have been. S/MIME Gateway signing and encryption is quite possible in a closed-community of domains today - example: http://e.govt.nz/see/mail/ (Since November 2000) If it was possible to solve key management, PKI trust and legacy interoperability (including mailing-list behaviour) using something that scales to an open community then an S/MIME gateway approach could certainly work in the open community. Solving all three of these problems isn't necessarily easy. Regards, Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 6:09 p.m. To: Sean P. Turner; SMIME Subject: Re: Charter Modification How about including a S/MIME gateway task? The OpenGroup and Blake B are reportedly working on such a thing. What happened with the gateway BOF that Phill H-B wrote about sometime ago? An S/MIME gateway standard is really needed as S/MIME end-to-end encryption is not going anywhere. Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean P. Turner To: SMIME Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 01:41 Subject: Charter Modification All, To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some are way off). Attached is the proposed modification. Please respond with any comments by Friday. Cheers, spt S/MIME Mail Security (smime) Chair: Sean Turner Blake Ramsdell Security Area Director: Russ Housley Steve Belovin Security Area Advisor: Russ Housley Mailing Lists: General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/ Description of Working Group: The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications. The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed. To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document. CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent. To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group. The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005. Milestones: History Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard. Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC. Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC. Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard. Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard. Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC. Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification. Last call on X.400 transport specification. Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification. Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification. Last call on AES algorithm specification. Last call on update to MSG. First draft of update to CERT. First draft of CMS and ESS examples document. First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix. First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard. Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard. Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard. Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard. Last call on CMS and ESS examples document. Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard. Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard. First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification. Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard September 04 Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension October 04 Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension December 04 Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC January 05 Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix February 05 Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification January 06 Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard From ernestoreddick@deliveredsavings.com Wed Sep 1 17:07:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02516 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2cM5-0000aR-IG for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:09:23 -0400 Received: from host-119-126.narazone.com ([69.42.119.126]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C2cJo-0003n9-CX for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:07:00 -0400 From: "ProductTestPanel" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: -Just in time for School - get the Family a Dell Notebook Computer - FR Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:07:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@zithith.deliveredsavings.com> X-Spam-Score: 5.9 (+++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit










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> From hiltonmaguire@deliveredfreestuff.com Wed Sep 1 20:07:04 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18467 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2fAP-0007hQ-A9 for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:09:30 -0400 Received: from backend-117-126.saveinternet.com ([69.42.117.126]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C2f86-0007UF-KQ for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:07:06 -0400 From: "Free Product Testing" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: -Back to School Special Get a Free Gateway Notebook Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:07:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@ngucere.deliveredfreestuff.com> X-Spam-Score: 8.7 (++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit










From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 1 20:37:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20149 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i820DeHM019834; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i820DeLH019833; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:13:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i820DdCP019823 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:13:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:13:30 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:13:28 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359547@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSQUqHHTFBj49s+Q0K92GaVLngDJgAKo4Og From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Tony Capel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2004 00:13:30.0053 (UTC) FILETIME=[ACFB0750:01C49081] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i820DeCP019828 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tony, In-line; > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > Sent: den 1 september 2004 20:37 > To: ietf-smime@imc.org; Stefan Santesson > Cc: 'Anders Rundgren' > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan: > > I am also concerned about requiring that the sMIMECapabilities be in the > certificate itself, although I agree that something to help get initial > sMIMECapabilities is required. [Stefan] This is a fundamental misunderstanding. I do certainly not propose that sMIMECapabilities should be REQUIRED in certs. This is an option for the many cases where this is useful, makes sense and is compatible with the organizational structure it is used. So we don't need to prove that it is useful for all certificates and all use cases. We only need to prove that it is useful enough and that its use is not creating problems for those for which it doesn't make any sense. > > Jim Schaad's "Certificate Distribution Specification" expired draft > (draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt) touched on this as well. > [Stefan] I'm sorry, I don't have this draft. > If sMIMECapabilities is bound to the certificate, certificates may need to > be > re-issued more frequently (when capabilities information is changed). > This will > create additional work for the CA, and CRLs will inevitably increase in > size > (these are bad things). (Correct me if I am wrong: If the capabilities > for an > organization changes, all of the certs will need to be reissued!) [Stefan] As you mention below, the act to put sMIMECapabilities is more of a policy enforcement act and as such it doesn't differ from many other aspects of certificates. You can compare with the case where the certificate policy gets updated, changed or a new certificate policy must be added to all certificates. If your policy in this matter is subject to change on a frequent basis in a way that needs to be immediately populated you need to handle and plan for this. You may the conclude that you don't want to put sMIMECapabilities in your certs. Renewal doesn't however necessarily mean that old certificate must be revoked and some PKI implementations actually allow enforced silent renewal of all certificate in an organization to all users at the cost of just a few clicks in the administrational GUI. This must in the end be compared with the case where an initial exchange takes place and the sender has NO knowledge about the recipient, then it will need to fall back to the default configuration in the senders application which in many cases is 40-bit encryption. > > Also since the certificate is signed by the CA, sMIMECapabilities in this > proposal is signed by the CA and not the end-entity (as in existing > method). > This may sometimes be beneficial since it allows the CA to have added > control > over the use of algorithms and key lengths. The change from the end-user > signing to the CA signing has security implications and should be noted* > (possibly in the security section). [Stefan] We agree here. It is important to clearly guide that user signed sMIMECapabilities should have precedence over capabilities carried in certs. The capabilities in certs are only meant to be the last resource of guidance before falling back to the default configuration in the sender's application. > > Some of the issues could be addressed by allowing the use of a dynamic > method as > well. One or more methods could be specified, XKMS + DNS, LDAP, and/or > HTTP for > example. One available method could be an "immediate" method, allowing > those > CAs who do not mind putting sMIMECapabilities within their certificates to > do so > (as currently proposed). > [Stefan] I men that it is very important to use the same structure and attribute format as when this same information is carried in a S/MIME signed message. This way we can preserve the same logic for capabilities in certificates and in signed messages and thus switch to the use of capabilities in signed messages as soon as this is available for the sender. > > I also wonder how many cases there are when only the sMIMECapabilities is > required (and not certificates & paths as well). [Stefan] S/MIME is based on the use of certificates. If you have any case where you don't have a certificate then this feature does not apply to you. If you don't have a > certificate, an extension won't help (you need certificates and > sMIMECapabilities both). If you have a certificate from a previous > message you > likely also received the sMIMECapabilities in a SignerInfo. If you > obtained the > certificate using LDAP or some other means you might logically but > arguably > expect to access the sMIMECapabilities the same way. If your software > threw > away the S/MIME capabilities (rather than caching them like the > certificate) > adding them to the certificate is a peculiar way to fix the software! [Stefan] I think this is a misunderstanding of the spec. You would use the capabilities from the signed message if you have one. You only use the capabilities in the certificate if you don't have any other data to use. > Also of > course for dual keypair systems, there may be situations where you have > the > signing certificate but not the encryption one, in which case you want > both > sMIMECapabilities and the encryption cert - and I hope the proposal is not > to > embed the encryption cert inside the signing cert!!! [Stefan] You are right, that is absolutely NOT the proposal. sMIMECapabilities only makes sense in encryption certs to be used by the sender of an encrypted message. > > So maybe the method used to get sMIMECapabilities should also be able to > return > the certificates & paths - to make it more generally useful - in which > case Jim > Schaad's proposal - and allowing any dynamic access method including XKMS > + DNS, > LDAP, HTTP, . - may be worth another look. > [Stefan] I don't agree. We should not overload this function. Just complement the use of the same attribute in signed messages. > Sorry for the long winded reply. But an easier method to get certs, paths > and > sMIMECapabilities is needed. > [Stefan] No problem. I hope my answers make sense. > Tony > > > * This may also include a discussion about using values provided in > certificates > in preference to values obtained by other means (e.g. when both a > certificate > and the SignerInfo contain sMIMECapabilities). For example, the first > paragraph > of Section 3 in the current proposal may not always be correct: the > sMIMECapabilities list signed by the CA (e.g. provided in a certificate) > may be > more trusted than the list provided in a message even if it appears the > message > was more recent. In some applications the increased trust (or more > correctly, > the increased authority of the signor) may take preference. > > > > | -----Original Message----- > | From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org > | [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren > | Sent: August 12, 2004 4:35 AM > | To: ietf-smime@imc.org > | Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > | > | > | > | I have no comments on the "design" in this draft. > | > | However, I seriously question the idea to put client software > | capabilities in certificates. > | > | Why? > | - because issuers may not have this information > | - because users may have multiple clients > | - because static solutions are limiting > | > | If we begin to use dynamic methods like XKMS + DNS to find > | public keys of recipients, SCEXT represents a step in another > | direction. > | > | Due to the limited utility of true end-to-end encryption in > | corporate environments (the DOMSEC RFC shows a few good > | reasons to that), as well as the de-facto use of the web as a > | distribution medium for e-government purposes (which is a > | much easier solution than S/MIME), I believe that Microsoft > | should focus on making a gateway e-mail standard a reality > | rather than patching a system that never will play a major > | role and actually mostly creates problems for end-users and > | system administrators. > | > | Anders > | > | > From money@money.com Thu Sep 2 03:45:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10215 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 03:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2mJi-0000zX-Vx for smime-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 03:47:35 -0400 Received: from [221.215.70.2] (helo=smime-archive) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C2mHL-0003Z6-Uk for smime-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 03:45:08 -0400 From: =?GB2312?B?zfjC57zm1rCjrL74ttTT0Meuv8nS1Neso6E=?= Subject: =?GB2312?B?zfjC57zm1rCjrL74ttTT0Meuv8nS1Neso6E=?= 15:45:12:6 To: smime-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/html;charset="GB2312" Reply-To: money@money.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:45:15 +0800 X-Priority: 4 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 12.6 (++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-NONENGLISH: Subject contains non-English characters X-Scan-Signature: ec7c6dab5a62df223002ae71b5179d41 8000ÍòÍøÃñµÄÍøÂç׬Ǯ¼Æ»®£­£­¶ÁÐÂÎÅ׬Ǯ£¬¿´¹ã¸æ׬Ǯ£¡£¡
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 2 09:11:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA01128 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82Cn2WI083093; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82Cn2DQ083092; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:49:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82Cn0EP083086 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:49:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i82Cn1N03894; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:49:01 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:49:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i82Cn0C03165; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:49:00 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:49:00 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409021249.i82Cn0C03165@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds > >since 1.1.70, ... > > I agree. However, very simple math can be used to make the > conversion. However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit > more complicated. I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary > routines to handle this in a few lines of code. If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime function, something like the following should work to convert a generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t. time_t test = (time_t) 0; int i ; for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) { test += (time_t)(1 << i) ; strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test)); if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0) test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ; } > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while > >displaying a generaizedtime does not. > > Display to a human is not the biggest concern. Date comparison is a much > bigger deal to me. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision > integers are involved. Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple. Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime. In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after 1000000000 of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function... ... but then you probably already have other problems. 'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw. > > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway > >because of dates in certs. > > Yep. I think that BinaryTime has other uses too. In the intended scenario? I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even superfluous, and may create confusion, but anyway.' I amy be wrong. From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 2 09:16:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA01578 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82D1Txf083637; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82D1TpU083636; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:01:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i82D1SMr083630 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 8344 invoked by uid 0); 2 Sep 2004 13:01:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.176.174) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2004 13:01:29 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040902085232.05413008@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:01:43 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409021249.i82Cn0C03165@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409021249.i82Cn0C03165@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds > > >since 1.1.70, ... > > > > I agree. However, very simple math can be used to make the > > conversion. However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit > > more complicated. I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary > > routines to handle this in a few lines of code. > >If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime >function, something like the following should work to convert a >generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t. > > time_t test = (time_t) 0; int i ; > for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) { > test += (time_t)(1 << i) ; > strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test)); > if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0) > test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ; > } Two thoughts: 1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are using here. 2. This only works when the time zone is UTC. This is one of the reasons that RFC 3280 and RFC 3852 require the time values to make use of UTC. The UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types do support other time zones. > > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while > > >displaying a generaizedtime does not. > > > > Display to a human is not the biggest concern. Date comparison is a much > > bigger deal to me. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision > > integers are involved. > >Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple. >Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime. Yes, if all times are represented in UTC, and the times are in the same format. Another complexity can arise when one date is in UTCTime and the other is in GeneralizedTime. >In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it >may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after >1000000000 > >of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function... >... but then you probably already have other problems. I already said that above... >'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw. We should probably add that to the list of things to clarify if the specification is ever updated again. > > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the > > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway > > >because of dates in certs. > > > > Yep. I think that BinaryTime has other uses too. > >In the intended scenario? > >I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification >can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it >is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even >superfluous, >and may create confusion, but anyway.' > >I amy be wrong. You may be right. That is why we ask for review. Russ From trentonmclain@powerfulinternet.com Thu Sep 2 10:08:16 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05194 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from switch-113-218.woodinternet.com ([69.42.113.218]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2sIX-0006n4-Sb for smime-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:10:47 -0400 From: "Need Testers" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: Need a laptop? Get a free IBM Thinkpad! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:08:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@dusazir.powerfulinternet.com> X-Spam-Score: 7.3 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit










From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 2 10:39:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08404 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82E8hPR089319; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:08:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82E8hpu089318; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:08:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82E8gLV089296 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:08:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i82E8bN05364; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:08:37 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:08:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i82E8aG03466; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:08:36 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:08:36 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409021408.i82E8aG03466@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds > > > >since 1.1.70, ... > > > > > > I agree. However, very simple math can be used to make the > > > conversion. However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit > > > more complicated. I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary > > > routines to handle this in a few lines of code. > > > >If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime > >function, something like the following should work to convert a > >generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t. > > > > time_t test = (time_t) 0; int i ; > > for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) { > > test += (time_t)(1 << i) ; > > strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test)); > > if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0) > > test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ; > > } > > Two thoughts: > > 1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are > using here. gmtime is not rich, just look at the implementations. you can easily replace the formatting by another equivalent implementation which is less than 50 lines of C that directly converts to a string. And what would emebedded system do with such a time? They would compare it against which value? If anything like certificate validation is involved, string processing etc is necessary anyway, and if you consider the size of an asn1 decoder, sorry, telling that gmtime or strftime are 'rich' is a somewhet weak argument. > > 2. This only works when the time zone is UTC. This is one of the reasons > that RFC 3280 and RFC 3852 require the time values to make use of UTC. The > UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types do support other time zones. id-signingTime only has UTC: UTCTime values must be expressed in Greenwich Mean Time (Zulu) and must include seconds (i.e., times are YYMMDDHHMMSSZ), even where the number of seconds is zero. Midnight (GMT) must be represented as "YYMMDD000000Z". Century information is implicit, and the century must be determined as follows: Where YY is greater than or equal to 50, the year shall be interpreted as 19YY; and Where YY is less than 50, the year shall be interpreted as 20YY. GeneralizedTime values shall be expressed in Greenwich Mean Time (Zulu) and must include seconds (i.e., times are YYYYMMDDHHMMSSZ), even where the number of seconds is zero. GeneralizedTime values must not include fractional seconds. You might propose SigningTime ::= Time Time ::= CHOICE { utcTime UTCTime, generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, epochSeconds INTEGER} in CMS to avoid all complications about multiple values, ie. when having id-SigningTime and id-BinarySigningTime together, well, this creates compartibility problems. > > > > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while > > > >displaying a generaizedtime does not. > > > > > > Display to a human is not the biggest concern. Date comparison is a much > > > bigger deal to me. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision > > > integers are involved. > > > >Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple. > >Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime. > > Yes, if all times are represented in UTC, and the times are in the same > format. Another complexity can arise when one date is in UTCTime and the > other is in GeneralizedTime. All id-SigningTime values are in Zulu, the necessary adjustment to convert a UTC to a Generalized time is exteremely simple. > > >In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it > >may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after > >1000000000 > > > >of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function... > >... but then you probably already have other problems. > > I already said that above... Well, look into the free sources. Adding 50 lines of code is less than adding whatever logic would be necessary to check inconsistent combinations of id-SigningTime and id-BinarySigningTime. > > >'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw. > > We should probably add that to the list of things to clarify if the > specification is ever updated again. No, one should reference some appropriate texts. Similar, I don't think that it is necessary to teach people about the variable length nature of an ASN1 INTEGER. > > > > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the > > > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway > > > >because of dates in certs. > > > > > > Yep. I think that BinaryTime has other uses too. > > > >In the intended scenario? Does silence to this question mean that you don't see any use in the intended scenario? If so, where is the beef? > > > >I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification > >can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it > >is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even > >superfluous, > >and may create confusion, but anyway.' > > > >I amy be wrong. > > You may be right. That is why we ask for review. I think, there are at least two Peter who don't see a need for this spec. 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Turner" , SMIME , Mike Lambert Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <010001c49058$6897b0f0$0500a8c0@arport> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anders, et al, I'm working with the "competition", i.e. the Open Group. We have indeed just launched a certification program for domain encryption and signing based on a profile of S/MIME. This work was done independently of, but highly conscious of, IETF efforts in the area. In fact, the profile used by the program was authored by Blake Ramsdell, and we have every intention of seeing it promulgated as widely as possible. There are definite shortcomings in the program as it exists today, primarily, as has been pointed out, in the area of key distribution. The current specification leaves this as a fundamentally manual process. Over time, as S/MIME gateways proliferate, we hope that the NEED for a more scalable mechanism develops, but for now penetration of this technology is so sparse that the more urgent need is to have products that can interoperate on the mail and key exchange level at all. I encourage all who are interested in this area to consider attending an Open Group session on this at one of their meetings. The next meeting is in Berlin toward the end of September, but it will be primarily informational with respect to the gateway certification program. The following meeting, in October in New Orleans, will have significant discussions on "v2" of the certification program. Please visit http://www.opengroup.org/messaging for more information. In sum, the Open Group considers itself IN NO WAY competitive to the IETF, and we would welcome participation from all interested parties. -ben- > From: Anders Rundgren > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:18:04 +0200 > To: Craig McGregor > Cc: "Sean P. Turner" , SMIME > Subject: Re: Charter Modification > > > Thanx Craig, > I was not aware of the mailsig (WG?) list. That means this > is outside of the S/MIME charter I suppose? > > BTW, here is a "competitor": > http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/19jul04.htm > > What I have seen little of, is how this can scale without having > a gateway PKI in place. Peer-to-peer certification does not seem > like a terribly good idea. > > Regards > Anders > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Craig McGregor > To: Anders Rundgren > Cc: Sean P. Turner ; SMIME > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 23:23 > Subject: RE: Charter Modification > > > Anders, > > I wasn't at the BOF you mentioned but as I understand it the BOF was scoped > for signing/authenticating e-mail. > Draft Charter: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00000.html > Minutes: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00025.html > > S/MIME gateways could use all existing S/MIME specifications and not be > limited to only signing outbound e-mail. e.g. Encryption > over the untrusted networks that transports messages between domains that > might otherwise have some level of trust. > > I would also like to see an interoperable S/MIME Gateway||Domains||Entities > standard or specification. I have had some past > experience at making a limited set of S/MIME gateway software talk to each > other reliably. This was more challenging at that time > than it should have been. > > S/MIME Gateway signing and encryption is quite possible in a closed-community > of domains today - example: http://e.govt.nz/see/mail/ > (Since November 2000) > > If it was possible to solve key management, PKI trust and legacy > interoperability (including mailing-list behaviour) using something > that scales to an open community then an S/MIME gateway approach could > certainly work in the open community. Solving all three of > these problems isn't necessarily easy. > > Regards, > Craig > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On > Behalf Of Anders Rundgren > Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 6:09 p.m. > To: Sean P. Turner; SMIME > Subject: Re: Charter Modification > > > How about including a S/MIME gateway task? > The OpenGroup and Blake B are reportedly working on such a thing. > > What happened with the gateway BOF that Phill H-B wrote about sometime ago? > > An S/MIME gateway standard is really needed as S/MIME end-to-end encryption is > not going anywhere. > > Anders > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean P. Turner > To: SMIME > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 01:41 > Subject: Charter Modification > > > All, > > To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working > group's charter (we also needed to update the dates > anyway because some are way off). Attached is the proposed modification. > Please respond with any comments by Friday. > > Cheers, > > spt > > > > > > S/MIME Mail Security (smime) > > Chair: > Sean Turner > Blake Ramsdell > > > Security Area Director: > Russ Housley > Steve Belovin > > Security Area Advisor: > Russ Housley > > Mailing Lists: > General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org > To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org > Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/ > > Description of Working Group: > > The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that > comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of > the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms > was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon > these base specifications. > > The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm > independent, yet there is always more than one way to > use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a > specification that describes its use with CMS. > Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be > developed. > > To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be > collected and published. Some of the examples will include > > structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices > (ESS) (RFC 2634) document. > > CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously > distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications > for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message > recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) > areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be > algorithm independent. > > To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a > specification will be developed allowing S/MIME > capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the > X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX > Working Group. > > The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress > the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. > The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to > Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME > specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the > PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can > start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005. > > Milestones: > > History > Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard. > Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC. > Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC. > Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard. > Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard. > Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC. > Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification. > Last call on X.400 transport specification. > Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification. > Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification. > Last call on AES algorithm specification. > Last call on update to MSG. > First draft of update to CERT. > First draft of CMS and ESS examples document. > First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix. > First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification. > Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard. > Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard. > Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard. > Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard. > Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard. > Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard. > Last call on CMS and ESS examples document. > Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard. > Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard. > First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification. > Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification. > Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard > > September 04 > Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC > First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension > > October 04 > Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension > > December 04 > Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC > > January 05 > Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix > > February 05 > Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard > Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard > Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard > Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard > Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard > Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification > > January 06 > Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard > > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 2 13:11:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19323 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82GqQBo003691; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82GqQB6003690; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.magma.ca (mx2.magma.ca [206.191.0.250]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82GqP3v003681 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail1.magma.ca (mail1.magma.ca [206.191.0.252]) by mx2.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i82GqPEf021395; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:52:26 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail1.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i82GqHN5002450; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:52:26 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: "'Stefan Santesson'" , Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:54:27 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c4910d$858bf1c0$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359547@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i82GqQ3v003685 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stefan: Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was optional and need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also understand your reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... I was trying to make two main points: 1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide sMIMECapabilities: by inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable to add the ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained (allow dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these methods could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs. 2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should ideally be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available even if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well (and this was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS might be included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is that in many cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as well (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-mail), and we should minimize the proliferation of methods. The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an enterprise updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the sMIMECapabilities information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a VERY big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" revocation/renewal to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing so leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the sMIMECapabilities change has a security impact...) By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself is no longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. To take your point about keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message signed by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a DNS SRV for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the originating enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an issue about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - this is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of Jim's (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be ideal?? 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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 2 17:47:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14714 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82LXGMK031272; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:33:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82LXGk8031271; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:33:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur.microsoft.com (mail-eur.microsoft.com [213.199.128.145]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82LXFoo031265 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:33:19 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:33:14 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359904@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSRDT5V5hp/RJGbQ32QZtY2xr02RgAIufhQ From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Tony Capel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2004 21:33:19.0917 (UTC) FILETIME=[774E65D0:01C49134] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i82LXGoo031266 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-line; > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > Sent: den 2 september 2004 18:54 > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan: > > Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was optional > and > need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also understand your > reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... > > I was trying to make two main points: > > 1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide > sMIMECapabilities: by > inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable to add > the > ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained > (allow > dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these > methods > could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs. > [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of complexity. sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. > 2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should > ideally > be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available > even > if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well > (and this > was Jim Shaads old proposal). [Stefan] That is not how I read Jim's document. After a quick glance I read Jim's document as a way to specify effectively in an S/MIME message, what certificates can be used to encrypt to it's sender and what sMIMECapabilities are tied to each listed certificate (represented by a hash). It also touches on how you could include pointers in the S/MIME message, pointing to the storage location of certificates. So this does NOT solve how you would access dynamic authenticated data PRIOR to the first S/MIME exchange between the parties. > And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS > might be > included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is that in > many > cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as > well > (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e- > mail), and > we should minimize the proliferation of methods. > [Stefan] This makes it clear to me that we try to solve different problems. The problem how to find certificates and their path is important but it is definitely out of the scope of this work. I don't say that I oppose work in that problem space but it is not part of what this work item is set to accomplish. Tying sMIMECapabilities to other specific key management protocols would IMO be a bad thing that would lower the value and usability of this work. > > The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an > enterprise > updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the > sMIMECapabilities > information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a > VERY > big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" > revocation/renewal > to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing > so > leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and > differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the > sMIMECapabilities > change has a security impact...) > [Stefan] Revocation and re-issuance might be a problem for some environments but will not be a problem for others. So potential problems in some environments should not stop its use in the many cases where it is useful. I can whiteness from real life experience that sMIMECapabilities in certificates has been widely and successfully deployed without causing any major problems. So we know that it works and that it brings value to the use of S/MIME. It is a provable fact. > By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself > is no > longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. To take your point > about > keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message > signed > by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the > enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a > DNS SRV > for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the > originating > enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an > issue > about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - > this > is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. > > Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of > Jim's > (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be > ideal?? > [Stefan] I'm not saying that dynamic storage of sMIMECapabilities must be bad. I can definitely see benefits, but it should not be mixed with the simple task to specify use of a single attribute in certificates that is already well established and defined. Going for dynamic storage is a major work that needs a careful thought process to determine whether it is worth the efforts and whether it is a proper response to real problems of S/MIME users. Unless I got it totally wrong, I don't believe that Jim's draft will provide the solution you are after here. 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----2398279660476169-- From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 00:29:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA09499 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i834EC2x062720; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i834ECoj062719; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i834EBn9062707 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0323340E3; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:13 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24286-17; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:13 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B38A33EDF; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:12 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB543774C; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:12 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C35Sr-0003tj-00; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:14:17 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040902085232.05413008@mail.binhost.com> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:14:17 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ Housley writes: >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are >using here. As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid. I've got code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once you've read it, but you can at least read it). I've never encountered a system where reading a UTCTime is a problem. Peter. [0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-). From scotty_meeksle@sellotape.de Fri Sep 3 00:47:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA10495 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [218.52.193.106] (helo=act.com.ph) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C361l-0002CZ-7O for smime-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 00:50:33 -0400 Received: from 159.119.134.110 by smtp.sellotape.de; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 04:56:49 +0000 Message-ID: <8fcb01c49172$8d75732f$b6618199@act.com.ph> From: "Scotty Meeks" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Want to lose up to 19% weight. Try Adipren! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 03:56:19 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 17.9 (+++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, here's a special offer for you... YOU WANT TO LOSE WEIGHT? 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Get the facts about all-natural Adipren: http://www.sister31.com/ Status should actually [Web Traditional helpful inappropriate pattern From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 01:17:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA09497 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8349xxA062532; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8349xei062531; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8349pJu062518 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A4334661; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:09:50 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21775-12; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:09:50 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E33834647; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:09:48 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE28A3774C; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:09:47 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C35Oa-0003tS-00; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:09:52 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409011832.i81IWDIQ004178@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:09:52 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: "David P. Kemp" writes: >The one sentence omitted from what you quote below states that it DOES go beyond >2038. Yeah, sorry, it was late at night and I read through it very quickly. >The reason for a binary attribute in the first place is primarily space >efficiency. As Peter Sylvester has pointed out, in order to be compatible with existing apps, you'd need to include *both* attributes (the TLS WG has just had a debate about the 10-year old obsolete known-insecure SSLv2 protocol and why virtually everything still has to support it by default for backwards-compatibility, so you'll never get rid of the existing signing time). As a result, you won't save a few bytes in the time encoding, you'll double the space through having to use two different formats. In addition the space saving is insignificant, a few bytes. I can save the same amount by not encoding the optional NULL parameter in algorithm identifiers, and that without breaking backwards compatibility like binary-time does. If saving a few bytes really is so critically important then this should be pursued by creating a new ASN.1 time type so that everyone may benefit from it. If it's part of the standard time CHOICE then it can be used everywhere where UTC/GeneralisedTime is currently used. Peter. From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 05:21:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA10058 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8397u4K069405; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8397ub2069404; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from odin2.bull.net (odin2.bull.net [192.90.70.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8397rQI069311 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Denis.Pinkas@bull.net) Received: from clbull.frcl.bull.fr (IDENT:root@clbull.frcl.bull.fr [129.182.8.31]) by odin2.bull.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA40094; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:18:46 +0200 Received: from bull.net (frcls4013.frcl.bull.fr [129.182.108.120]) by clbull.frcl.bull.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29835; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:58:09 +0200 Message-ID: <413833BC.80808@bull.net> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:05:00 +0200 From: Denis Pinkas Organization: Bull SA. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'Stefan Santesson'" CC: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt References: <000e01c4910d$858bf1c0$01b5a8c0@tony> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan, I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment. > Stefan: > > Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was optional and > need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also understand your > reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... > > I was trying to make two main points: > > 1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide sMIMECapabilities: by > inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable to add the > ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained (allow > dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these methods > could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs. I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with other applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key certificate. Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue. It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a pointer to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...) > 2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should ideally > be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available even > if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well (and this > was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS might be > included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is that in many > cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as well > (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-mail), and > we should minimize the proliferation of methods. > > > The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an enterprise > updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the sMIMECapabilities > information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a VERY > big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" revocation/renewal > to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing so > leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and > differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the sMIMECapabilities > change has a security impact...) > > By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself is no > longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. Yes. This is the main idea. Of course the next question is how to make sure that the sMIMECapabilities placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a certificate indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities Distribution Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the certificate, but does not need to be so. The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a special kind of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message. Denis > To take your point about > keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message signed > by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the > enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a DNS SRV > for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the originating > enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an issue > about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - this > is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. > > Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of Jim's > (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be ideal?? > > Tony > > > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 08:42:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA24752 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83CF7V9013117; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83CF719013116; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:15:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83CF4R5013087 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:15:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:14:59 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:15:02 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359B1C@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSRlZ2s45pVQhzeRzi0fNmKe6SpOwADbE0g From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Denis Pinkas" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2004 12:14:59.0716 (UTC) FILETIME=[A20B2440:01C491AF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83CF5R5013111 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Denis, You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as: 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate to help indicate capabilities of the subject 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much revocation and re-issuance of certificates. 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope. My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to complete (my guess). That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that works for the majority of cases. My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context of another new work item with another editor. /Stefan > -----Original Message----- > From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net] > Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05 > To: Stefan Santesson > Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan, > > I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment. > > > Stefan: > > > > Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was optional > and > > need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also understand > your > > reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... > > > > I was trying to make two main points: > > > > 1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide > sMIMECapabilities: by > > inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable to > add the > > ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained > (allow > > dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these > methods > > could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs. > > I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the > certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with other > applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these > applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key > certificate. > Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue. > > It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a pointer > to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, > marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...) > > > 2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should > ideally > > be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods > available even > > if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well > (and this > > was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS > might be > > included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is that > in many > > cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path > as well > > (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e- > mail), and > > we should minimize the proliferation of methods. > > > > > > The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an > enterprise > > updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the > sMIMECapabilities > > information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a > VERY > > big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" > revocation/renewal > > to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, > doing so > > leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and > > differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the > sMIMECapabilities > > change has a security impact...) > > > > By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself > is no > > longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. > > Yes. This is the main idea. > > Of course the next question is how to make sure that the sMIMECapabilities > placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a > certificate > indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities Distribution > Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the > certificate, but does not need to be so. > > The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a special > kind > of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message. > > Denis > > > To take your point about > > keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS > message signed > > by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the > > enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a > DNS SRV > > for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the > originating > > enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an > issue > > about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert > - this > > is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. > > > > Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version > of Jim's > > (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be > ideal?? > > > > Tony > > > > > > > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 10:12:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01074 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83DrvEw022396; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83DrvSY022395; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from odin2.bull.net (odin2.bull.net [192.90.70.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Drssj022385 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:53:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Denis.Pinkas@bull.net) Received: from clbull.frcl.bull.fr (IDENT:root@clbull.frcl.bull.fr [129.182.8.31]) by odin2.bull.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA40432; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:04:51 +0200 Received: from bull.net (frcls4013.frcl.bull.fr [129.182.108.120]) by clbull.frcl.bull.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32614; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:44:13 +0200 Message-ID: <413876C7.7070804@bull.net> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:51:04 +0200 From: Denis Pinkas Organization: Bull SA. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Santesson CC: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt References: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359B1C@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan, > Denis, > > You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as: > > 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate > to help indicate capabilities of the subject > > 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put > capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much > revocation and re-issuance of certificates. > > 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to > dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you > suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope. This is a nice summary. > My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind > of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more > complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to > complete (my guess). It is your guess. I would have a different guess. :-) > That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple > stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current > sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that > works for the majority of cases. It may work nicely in small environnements. However, there is currently insufficient text in the security considerations section to highlight the need of revocation, the document is using the word renew: Certification Authorities should therefore *renew* a certificate including S/MIME Capabilities, if the subjects cryptographic capabilities changes in a way that is no longer compatible with the current certificate. The security considerations section should mention that: 1) this extension is "adequate", if the same key is not used with other encryption applications (and explain why), 2) dynamic references would then be another solution to this problem. Denis > My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task > that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG > whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to > sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context > of another new work item with another editor. > > /Stefan > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net] >>Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05 >>To: Stefan Santesson >>Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org >>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt >> >>Stefan, >> >>I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment. >> >> >>>Stefan: >>> >>>Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was >> > optional > >>and >> >>>need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also >> > understand > >>your >> >>>reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... >>> >>>I was trying to make two main points: >>> >>>1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide >> >>sMIMECapabilities: by >> >>>inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable >> > to > >>add the >> >>>ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be >> > obtained > >>(allow >> >>>dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these >> >>methods >> >>>could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the >> > certs. > >>I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the >>certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with > > other > >>applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these >>applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key >>certificate. >>Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue. >> >>It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a > > pointer > >>to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, >>marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...) >> >> >>>2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified >> > should > >>ideally >> >>>be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods >> >>available even >> >>>if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as >> > well > >>(and this >> >>>was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + >> > XKMS > >>might be >> >>>included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is >> > that > >>in many >> >>>cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and >> > path > >>as well >> >>>(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous >> > e- > >>mail), and >> >>>we should minimize the proliferation of methods. >>> >>> >>>The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an >> >>enterprise >> >>>updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the >> >>sMIMECapabilities >> >>>information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this >> > is a > >>VERY >> >>>big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" >> >>revocation/renewal >> >>>to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, >> >>doing so >> >>>leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs >> > and > >>>differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the >> >>sMIMECapabilities >> >>>change has a security impact...) >>> >>>By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information >> > itself > >>is no >> >>>longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. >> >>Yes. This is the main idea. >> >>Of course the next question is how to make sure that the > > sMIMECapabilities > >>placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a >>certificate >>indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities > > Distribution > >>Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the >>certificate, but does not need to be so. >> >>The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a > > special > >>kind >>of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message. >> >>Denis >> >> > To take your point about >> >>>keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS >> >>message signed >> >>>by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for >> > the > >>>enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point >> > to a > >>DNS SRV >> >>>for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the >> >>originating >> >>>enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may >> > be an > >>issue >> >>>about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the >> > cert > >>- this >> >>>is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. >>> >>>Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated >> > version > >>of Jim's >> >>>(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not >> > be > >>ideal?? >> >>>Tony >>> >>> >>> >> > > From doyle.cantu_uy@goin.com.tw Fri Sep 3 10:22:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01996 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [61.250.124.70] (helo=nortron.com.ar) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3Eza-0000jj-0V for smime-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:24:45 -0400 Received: from 82.26.78.176 by smtp.goin.com.tw; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 14:19:46 +0000 Message-ID: <017c01c491c0$93ad5424$80b88766@nortron.com.ar> From: "Doyle Cantu" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Get great prices on medications Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:19:16 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Discount generic drugs. save over 70% todays specials, Viagra, retails for $15, we sell for 3!!! 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Check it out: http://4drugs123.com/?index No thanks: http://4drugs123.com/rm.html From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 10:50:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03656 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83ESmGl024712; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83ESmuU024711; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:28:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83ESlsm024700 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:28:42 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:28:35 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359BD2@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSRvXhml1kdaWrRSL60kKZ3lo2h+wAACrjQ From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Denis Pinkas" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2004 14:28:42.0244 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FD7C440:01C491C2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83ESmsm024706 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Denis, In-line; > -----Original Message----- > From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net] > Sent: den 3 september 2004 15:51 > To: Stefan Santesson > Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan, > > > Denis, > > > > You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as: > > > > 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate > > to help indicate capabilities of the subject > > > > 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put > > capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much > > revocation and re-issuance of certificates. > > > > 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to > > dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you > > suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope. > > This is a nice summary. > [Stefan] Thanks, it makes the discussion easier :-) > > My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind > > of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more > > complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to > > complete (my guess). > > It is your guess. I would have a different guess. :-) [Stefan] Of course this is a guess. But it is based on experience. It is at least more complex than the logotype extension which took over 2 years to complete :-) > > > That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple > > stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current > > sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that > > works for the majority of cases. > > It may work nicely in small environnements. > [Stefan] This works very well also in large organizations. And I know this for a fact since I have it in my own S/MIME certificate and we are 50.000 users. It has been in use for a long time. It has proven to be very useful and it has never caused any problems of the kind you mention. You can see it for your self in my certificate below: (cut out and save as a file with .cer extension) -----BEGIN CERTIFICATE----- MIIFwzCCBKugAwIBAgIKE/lfpwABAAFNjjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADAvMS0wKwYD VQQDEyRNaWNyb3NvZnQgSW50cmFuZXQgTGV2ZWwgMiBVc2VyIENBIDIwHhcNMDQw NTEzMDk0MTI2WhcNMDUwNTEzMDk0MTI2WjCBiTETMBEGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWA2Nv bTEZMBcGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWCW1pY3Jvc29mdDEUMBIGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWBGNv cnAxFjAUBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgZldXJvcGUxDjAMBgNVBAMTBVVzZXJzMRkwFwYD VQQDExBTdGVmYW4gU2FudGVzc29uMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKB gQDJ0aSfbuPMZOP/liMfopMXIUtaOmClzXCulOhfp3V6CcimCmGbvNzfGYfirmE3 0rH/+uT6e/CB5lo4rXFLqufvDV++bEWQJsIIS6KG4Bn0Cib1G4ebp8wrED2oJDx3 E2WeI40/jQALjcyp3OYmrNX4535Nq9SOMglY2/W3lr+E+QIDAQABo4IDCDCCAwQw CwYDVR0PBAQDAgeAMEQGCSqGSIb3DQEJDwQ3MDUwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA4G CCqGSIb3DQMEAgIAgDAHBgUrDgMCBzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzArBgNVHSUEJDAiBgor BgEEAYI3KgIBBgorBgEEAYI3FAICBggrBgEFBQcDAjA/BgkrBgEEAYI3FQcEMjAw BigrBgEEAYI3FQiDz4lNrfIChaGfDIL6yn2B4ft0gU+J9vG2YYHbk8USAgFkAgEM MDcGCSsGAQQBgjcVCgQqMCgwDAYKKwYBBAGCNyoCATAMBgorBgEEAYI3FAICMAoG CCsGAQUFBwMCMDAGA1UdEQQpMCegJQYKKwYBBAGCNxQCA6AXDBVzdGVmYW5zQG1p Y3Jvc29mdC5jb20wHQYDVR0OBBYEFPCxFTnSeoK5luwmPmXdS4u+EeEcMB8GA1Ud IwQYMBaAFJPA18nU2Ss3YUqCdd0M/GqnUpx1MIHBBgNVHR8EgbkwgbYwgbOggbCg ga2GSmh0dHA6Ly9jb3JwcGtpL2NybC9NaWNyb3NvZnQlMjBJbnRyYW5ldCUyMExl dmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSkuY3Jshl9odHRwOi8vY3JsLm1pY3Jv c29mdC5jb20vcGtpL21zY29ycC9jcmwvTWljcm9zb2Z0JTIwSW50cmFuZXQlMjBM ZXZlbCUyMDIlMjBVc2VyJTIwQ0ElMjAyKDEpLmNybDCB0QYIKwYBBQUHAQEEgcQw gcEwVgYIKwYBBQUHMAKGSmh0dHA6Ly9jb3JwcGtpL2FpYS9NaWNyb3NvZnQlMjBJ bnRyYW5ldCUyMExldmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSkuY3J0MGcGCCsG AQUFBzAChltodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1pY3Jvc29mdC5jb20vcGtpL21zY29ycC9NaWNy b3NvZnQlMjBJbnRyYW5ldCUyMExldmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSku Y3J0MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4IBAQCifqY1BQk7if7RnSHV8545pZkSKKn5QPjQ jIcc2JwISRu57Y+B9DOTdtI3ECEh73smz5DDUtTYcfebE7KC5Vt3J0zON8XWiAFl lPwxEsWdl+/XX2UkOZSOwZ1GIa/BtUOR76P9kRuxvRcfaejriHYupbsxHq2CuT6d fA32iWi/uAu6r9QzR9BPuYi4ht97s1xJ3UproChH+aPFXfPyyFNedkgVdI6vOV0J yZSm9tXBuMa1IP4WNjDFnz8j3YXbMmK8x225vqW308mtFtowbIHHcpVjrigMqpDm MSwdE0UK3hjIllvmAMEfVX9Y5ixrBQFc9oW6tkoFC1/IVOoID0tJ -----END CERTIFICATE----- > However, there is currently insufficient text in the security > considerations > section to highlight the need of revocation, the document is using the > word > renew: > > Certification Authorities should therefore *renew* a certificate > including S/MIME Capabilities, if the subjects cryptographic > capabilities changes in a way that is no longer compatible with the > current certificate. > > The security considerations section should mention that: > > 1) this extension is "adequate", if the same key is not used with > other encryption applications (and explain why), > > 2) dynamic references would then be another solution to this problem. > [Stefan] Thanks for the valuable input. I have no problem updating and clarifying the security considerations section. I'm however not sure I understand what you mean by 1) but I'm positive that we can sort it out. I definitely agree to 2) > Denis > > > My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task > > that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG > > whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to > > sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context > > of another new work item with another editor. > > > > /Stefan > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net] > >>Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05 > >>To: Stefan Santesson > >>Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org > >>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > >> > >>Stefan, > >> > >>I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment. > >> > >> > >>>Stefan: > >>> > >>>Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was > >> > > optional > > > >>and > >> > >>>need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also > >> > > understand > > > >>your > >> > >>>reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... > >>> > >>>I was trying to make two main points: > >>> > >>>1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide > >> > >>sMIMECapabilities: by > >> > >>>inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable > >> > > to > > > >>add the > >> > >>>ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be > >> > > obtained > > > >>(allow > >> > >>>dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these > >> > >>methods > >> > >>>could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the > >> > > certs. > > > >>I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the > >>certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with > > > > other > > > >>applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these > >>applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key > >>certificate. > >>Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue. > >> > >>It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a > > > > pointer > > > >>to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, > >>marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...) > >> > >> > >>>2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified > >> > > should > > > >>ideally > >> > >>>be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods > >> > >>available even > >> > >>>if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as > >> > > well > > > >>(and this > >> > >>>was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + > >> > > XKMS > > > >>might be > >> > >>>included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is > >> > > that > > > >>in many > >> > >>>cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and > >> > > path > > > >>as well > >> > >>>(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous > >> > > e- > > > >>mail), and > >> > >>>we should minimize the proliferation of methods. > >>> > >>> > >>>The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an > >> > >>enterprise > >> > >>>updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the > >> > >>sMIMECapabilities > >> > >>>information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this > >> > > is a > > > >>VERY > >> > >>>big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" > >> > >>revocation/renewal > >> > >>>to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, > >> > >>doing so > >> > >>>leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs > >> > > and > > > >>>differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the > >> > >>sMIMECapabilities > >> > >>>change has a security impact...) > >>> > >>>By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information > >> > > itself > > > >>is no > >> > >>>longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. > >> > >>Yes. This is the main idea. > >> > >>Of course the next question is how to make sure that the > > > > sMIMECapabilities > > > >>placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a > >>certificate > >>indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities > > > > Distribution > > > >>Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the > >>certificate, but does not need to be so. > >> > >>The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a > > > > special > > > >>kind > >>of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message. > >> > >>Denis > >> > >> > To take your point about > >> > >>>keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS > >> > >>message signed > >> > >>>by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for > >> > > the > > > >>>enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point > >> > > to a > > > >>DNS SRV > >> > >>>for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the > >> > >>originating > >> > >>>enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may > >> > > be an > > > >>issue > >> > >>>about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the > >> > > cert > > > >>- this > >> > >>>is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. > >>> > >>>Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated > >> > > version > > > >>of Jim's > >> > >>>(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not > >> > > be > > > >>ideal?? > >> > >>>Tony > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 12:05:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08084 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Fdnhl030970; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83FdnZH030969; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.magma.ca (mx2.magma.ca [206.191.0.250]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Fdn07030963 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.214]) by mx2.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i83Fdpha008736; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:39:52 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i83FdfTx024359; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:39:51 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: "'Stefan Santesson'" , Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:41:53 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c491cc$8cacd770$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359904@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83Fdn07030964 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stefan: Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however | not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication | of complexity. | | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you | introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify | the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That | is NOT a small thing. This does not require the server to create authenticated data on-line, the returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or end entity, or an attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in authentication framework complexity than if this data were put in the cert itself. Whoever (CA or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and sign the null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed item is then stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the sMIMECapabilities are changed (or when the signing keys change of course). I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution Specification" draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used to distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the issue of whether there needs to be a secure binding between the sMIMECapabilities and the specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as well. Tony * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the moment. I don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding even if they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end systems is not retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to specific cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method inherently securely binds the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this is a NICE THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional considerations are needed for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. 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United Development International (UDVE.PK)

Current Price: .036

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PriceWaterhouseCoopers analysts confirm worldwide mining boom!

Record mining PR0FITS and industry-wide merger mania positions

UDVE with huge reserves and expanded production to jump 500%.

Our precious metals and mining HOT-PICKS for the last 12 months have gained an average of 476%?e are expecting earth-shattering news that will send shockwaves through our latest pick UDVE.

UDVE controls 3 of the largest gold mining properties in Guyana (South America) including a 25-mile property with proven, verified reserves exceeding 400,000 ounces of gold valued at over $100 MILLI0N

The Company is in a rapidly expanding state of gold production while generating revenue and positive cash flow. UDVE has literally struck gold with major funding news announced last week that provides $13 MILLI0N for the purchase of additional mining equipment enabling accelerated production and record breaking PR0FITS.

UDVE's breakout year is perfectly timed and will not go unnoticed as PriceWaterhouseCoopers' head mining analyst, Paul Murphy, stated just last month; "We seem to be at the start of the first mining boom of the twenty- first century." This statement accompanied a PriceWaterhouse report detailing the record doubling of PR0FITS for mining companies in 2003 with an even brighter outlook for 2004.

Hot gold stocks are no longer taking a back seat while merger and takeover activity is on the rise. Investors have scored major gains on several recent highly-publicized battles for control of well-positioned gold producers with similar structure to UDVE.

REUTERS Newswire reported last quarter that mergers and acquisitions in gold mining companies are being completed at a record frantic pace with the expectation of this trend increasing. Large-cap fund managers and securities analysts agree that the junior mining GR0UP is especially more vulnerable to a b?y-out or takeover scenario in today's healthy mining environment. UDVE is viewed as a serious takeover target based on their $140 MILLI0N revenue forecast, as the price for this undervalued asset play has not even come close to reaching its true potential.

Judging by the numbers, the value of UDVE's proven reserves should push the share price higher with greater upside expected to match their fast-paced growth. UDVE has been heating up the newswire with batches of positive developments regarding production, reserve valuations, and additional property acquisitions. Combine these activities with classic evidence of 60- day accumulation and it's blatantly obvious that huge news is about to be released that will have an explosive impact on shareholder value.

This publication is an independent news-letter with the goal of giving investors the necessary knowledge to make rational and PR0FITABLE investment decisions. This publication does not provide an analysis of the Company's financial position and is not an 0FFER to b?y or sell securities. Investing in securities is speculative and carries risk. It is RECC0MENDED that any investment should be made after consulting with your investment ADVIS0R and after reviewing the financial statements of the company. The information in this online report is believed to be reliable, but its accuracy cannot be assured. Past performance does not insure similar future results. This is not purported to be a complete and thorough analysis of the featured company and RECC0MENDS a complete review of the Company's regulatory filings at sec.gov. The information herein contains future looking statements and information within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, including statements regarding expected continual growth of the featured company. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be future looking statements. Future looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Future looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects, foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands, or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. The publisher discloses the receipt of fourteen thousand D0LLARS from a third party, not an officer, director, or affiliate shareholder of the company for the preparation of this online report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid publication. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, S.E.C. filings and Company Press Releases. This information is believed to be reliable but can make no absolute certainty as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material with in this on-line news-letter constitutes your acceptance of these terms.

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United Development International (UDVE.PK)

Current Price: .036

Gold Stock Super-Hot Mining Play

PriceWaterhouseCoopers analysts confirm worldwide mining boom!

Record mining PR0FITS and industry-wide merger mania positions

UDVE with huge reserves and expanded production to jump 500%.

Our precious metals and mining HOT-PICKS for the last 12 months have gained an average of 476%?e are expecting earth-shattering news that will send shockwaves through our latest pick UDVE.

UDVE controls 3 of the largest gold mining properties in Guyana (South America) including a 25-mile property with proven, verified reserves exceeding 400,000 ounces of gold valued at over $100 MILLI0N

The Company is in a rapidly expanding state of gold production while generating revenue and positive cash flow. UDVE has literally struck gold with major funding news announced last week that provides $13 MILLI0N for the purchase of additional mining equipment enabling accelerated production and record breaking PR0FITS.

UDVE's breakout year is perfectly timed and will not go unnoticed as PriceWaterhouseCoopers' head mining analyst, Paul Murphy, stated just last month; "We seem to be at the start of the first mining boom of the twenty- first century." This statement accompanied a PriceWaterhouse report detailing the record doubling of PR0FITS for mining companies in 2003 with an even brighter outlook for 2004.

Hot gold stocks are no longer taking a back seat while merger and takeover activity is on the rise. Investors have scored major gains on several recent highly-publicized battles for control of well-positioned gold producers with similar structure to UDVE.

REUTERS Newswire reported last quarter that mergers and acquisitions in gold mining companies are being completed at a record frantic pace with the expectation of this trend increasing. Large-cap fund managers and securities analysts agree that the junior mining GR0UP is especially more vulnerable to a b?y-out or takeover scenario in today's healthy mining environment. UDVE is viewed as a serious takeover target based on their $140 MILLI0N revenue forecast, as the price for this undervalued asset play has not even come close to reaching its true potential.

Judging by the numbers, the value of UDVE's proven reserves should push the share price higher with greater upside expected to match their fast-paced growth. UDVE has been heating up the newswire with batches of positive developments regarding production, reserve valuations, and additional property acquisitions. Combine these activities with classic evidence of 60- day accumulation and it's blatantly obvious that huge news is about to be released that will have an explosive impact on shareholder value.

This publication is an independent news-letter with the goal of giving investors the necessary knowledge to make rational and PR0FITABLE investment decisions. This publication does not provide an analysis of the Company's financial position and is not an 0FFER to b?y or sell securities. Investing in securities is speculative and carries risk. It is RECC0MENDED that any investment should be made after consulting with your investment ADVIS0R and after reviewing the financial statements of the company. The information in this online report is believed to be reliable, but its accuracy cannot be assured. Past performance does not insure similar future results. This is not purported to be a complete and thorough analysis of the featured company and RECC0MENDS a complete review of the Company's regulatory filings at sec.gov. The information herein contains future looking statements and information within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, including statements regarding expected continual growth of the featured company. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be future looking statements. Future looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Future looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects, foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands, or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. The publisher discloses the receipt of fourteen thousand D0LLARS from a third party, not an officer, director, or affiliate shareholder of the company for the preparation of this online report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid publication. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, S.E.C. filings and Company Press Releases. This information is believed to be reliable but can make no absolute certainty as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material with in this on-line news-letter constitutes your acceptance of these terms.

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Click here: http://4drugs123.com/meds/ Best regards, Donald Cunfingham No thanks: http://4drugs123.com/rm.html From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 14:24:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04266 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83HvrH4043043; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83Hvr2g043042; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur.microsoft.com (mail-eur.microsoft.com [213.199.128.145]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Hvpdd043021 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:57:54 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:57:35 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C0F@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSRzDce3802fL7rSkCKSBFM9HxmtAAEM65A From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Tony Capel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2004 17:57:54.0903 (UTC) FILETIME=[89CF8670:01C491DF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83Hvqdd043035 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tony, Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic sMIMECapabilities! Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this take off in a million directions. First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out how you will structure the extension referring to this data in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, ldap, ftp. Then we have already heard voices that we might need to distinguish between capabilities for different applications and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why not then argue about how this data should be signed and if there might be a reason to let different entities sign different parts of the capabilities data. Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some certificates gets revoked or renewed. And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that would be if it is.... I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to make a bet:-) What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it own project. /Stefan > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan: > > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. > > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however > | not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication > | of complexity. > | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you > | introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify > | the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That > | is NOT a small thing. > > This does not require the server to create authenticated data on-line, the > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or end entity, or > an > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in > authentication > framework complexity than if this data were put in the cert itself. > Whoever (CA > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and sign > the > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed item is then > stored in > whatever server is used. It is only changed when the sMIMECapabilities > are > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). > > > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution Specification" > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used to > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the issue > of > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the sMIMECapabilities > and the > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). > > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as well. > > > Tony > > > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the moment. > I > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding even > if > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end systems > is not > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to specific > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are > probably > cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method inherently securely > binds > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this is a NICE > THING, but > I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional considerations are > needed > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 15:20:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09048 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Ir7JO047158; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:53:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83Ir7Yv047157; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:53:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from stingray.missi.ncsc.mil (stingray.missi.ncsc.mil [144.51.50.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83IpItn047067 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:51:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil) Message-ID: <200409031846.i83IklIQ015817@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 14:51:05 -0400 From: "David P. Kemp" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2004 18:51:05.0711 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7AE2FF0:01C491E6] Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Gutmann wrote: >As Peter Sylvester has pointed out, in order to be compatible with existing >apps, you'd need to include *both* attributes (the TLS WG has just had a debate >about the 10-year old obsolete known-insecure SSLv2 protocol and why virtually >everything still has to support it by default for backwards-compatibility, so >you'll never get rid of the existing signing time). As a result, you won't save >a few bytes in the time encoding, you'll double the space through having to use >two different formats. > You read past the part about this being useful for CMS but not for S/MIME. The situations where saving a few bytes is useful occur when 1) the objects being signed are small, 2) signature values are small (i.e. DSA/ECDSA, not RSA), and 3) encoding overhead is small (i.e. PER, not BER/DER). There are no existing applications in this space, and thus no backwards compatibilty issues. But CMS and a newly defined attribute can be applied to future applications without having any impact on existing apps. The other Peter's suggestion: Time ::= CHOICE { utcTime UTCTime, generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, epochSeconds INTEGER} is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. Dave From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 16:39:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12794 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83KGQwt054082; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83KGQa0054081; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83KGQsb054075 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail4.magma.ca (mail4.magma.ca [206.191.0.222]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i83KGR0N013972; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:16:28 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail4.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i83KGHca031017; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:16:27 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: "'Stefan Santesson'" , Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:18:28 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c491f3$308883f0$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C0F@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83KGQsb054076 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stefan: I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation of scope. Please bear with me. Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, and it seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do that. This is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we should make sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to the well too often ;-). To do that we need to consider what is quick and simple to do today and also where we might go. So I think this discussion now is valuable. I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made complex as you demonstrate. The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts). Those guys did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, SMTP, or whatever when they defined it. They only worried about what the CRL format was to be. In our case I propose we already have a format: a null signed message. Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be carried in a null signed message too. I suspect that if I posted a null signed message on a website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even work today (??). And frankly, if an organization is already distributing CRL's by whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to provide sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and it will also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!). The server just responds with a static null signed item. Processing on receipt is the same as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages. I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks that the only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick all the sMIMECapabilities into the cert. I think we will get a negative reaction. If it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more efficient, we have a better chance. I have also mentioned that we should make the extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it more palatable, but that's another thread.... Tony | -----Original Message----- | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | | | Tony, | | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic | sMIMECapabilities! | | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this | take off in a million directions. | | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out | how you will structure the extension referring to this data | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, | ldap, ftp. | | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to | distinguish between capabilities for different applications | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if | there might be a reason to let different entities sign | different parts of the capabilities data. | | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some | certificates gets revoked or renewed. | | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that | would be if it is.... | | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to | make a bet:-) | | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. | | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it | own project. | | /Stefan | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | > | > Stefan: | > | > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. | > | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of | > | complexity. | > | | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the | framework for | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. | > | > This does not require the server to create authenticated | data on-line, | the | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or | end entity, | or | > an | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were | put in the | > cert itself. Whoever (CA | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and | sign | > the | > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed | item is then | > stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the | sMIMECapabilities | > are | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). | > | > | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution | Specification" | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used | to | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the | issue | > of | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the | sMIMECapabilities | > and the | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). | > | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as | well. | > | > | > Tony | > | > | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the | moment. | > I | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding | even | > if | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end | systems | > is not | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to | specific | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are | > probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method | > inherently | securely | > binds | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this | is a NICE | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional | > considerations | are | > needed | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. | > | | From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 3 20:25:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA26169 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8408dqA075082; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8408dDk075081; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8408cge075068 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:08:34 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:08:18 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSR8wMXu+ZzBP4XQMCLDGxXykExAAAGnoUA From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Tony Capel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Sep 2004 00:08:34.0935 (UTC) FILETIME=[51E71870:01C49213] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i8408dge075076 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tony, I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you oversimplify this issue. Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of the null signed message. If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities. If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well. And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data. Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with renewed certs or multiple valid certs. Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons, revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies, etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions. The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple! I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which should be done before end of this year. There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of the current spec use the already established structure for the sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway. If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC. And I'm not the guy to lead that effort. Maybe you are? :-) Stefan Santesson Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE) > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18 > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan: > > I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation of > scope. > Please bear with me. > > Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, and > it > seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do that. > This > is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we should > make > sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to the > well > too often ;-). To do that we need to consider what is quick and simple to > do > today and also where we might go. So I think this discussion now is > valuable. > > I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made > complex as > you demonstrate. > > The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts). Those > guys > did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, > SMTP, or > whatever when they defined it. They only worried about what the CRL > format was > to be. In our case I propose we already have a format: a null signed > message. > Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be > carried in a > null signed message too. I suspect that if I posted a null signed message > on a > website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even > work > today (??). And frankly, if an organization is already distributing CRL's > by > whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to provide > sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and it > will > also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!). The > server > just responds with a static null signed item. Processing on receipt is > the same > as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages. > > > I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks > that the > only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick all > the > sMIMECapabilities into the cert. I think we will get a negative reaction. > If > it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more > efficient, > we have a better chance. I have also mentioned that we should make the > extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it more > palatable, but that's another thread.... > > Tony > > > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] > | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM > | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org > | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > | > | > | Tony, > | > | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic > | sMIMECapabilities! > | > | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this > | take off in a million directions. > | > | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and > | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures > | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out > | how you will structure the extension referring to this data > | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and > | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, > | ldap, ftp. > | > | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to > | distinguish between capabilities for different applications > | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why > | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if > | there might be a reason to let different entities sign > | different parts of the capabilities data. > | > | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates > | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we > | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some > | certificates gets revoked or renewed. > | > | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute > | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that > | would be if it is.... > | > | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to > | make a bet:-) > | > | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and > | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. > | > | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated > | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it > | own project. > | > | /Stefan > | > | > -----Original Message----- > | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 > | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org > | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > | > > | > Stefan: > | > > | > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. > | > > | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a > | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of > | > | complexity. > | > | > | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce > | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the > | framework for > | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. > | > > | > This does not require the server to create authenticated > | data on-line, > | the > | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or > | end entity, > | or > | > an > | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in > | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were > | put in the > | > cert itself. Whoever (CA > | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and > | sign > | > the > | > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed > | item is then > | > stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the > | sMIMECapabilities > | > are > | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). > | > > | > > | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution > | Specification" > | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used > | to > | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the > | issue > | > of > | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the > | sMIMECapabilities > | > and the > | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between > | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). > | > > | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as > | well. > | > > | > > | > Tony > | > > | > > | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the > | moment. > | > I > | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding > | even > | > if > | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end > | systems > | > is not > | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to > | specific > | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are > | > probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method > | > inherently > | securely > | > binds > | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this > | is a NICE > | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional > | > considerations > | are > | > needed > | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. > | > > | > | > From s_ferrell_tf@vinden.nl Fri Sep 3 22:58:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03928 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:58:43 -0400 (EDT) From: s_ferrell_tf@vinden.nl Received: from [219.93.202.38] (helo=sundsvall.nu) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3Qnz-0007I1-I1 for smime-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:01:35 -0400 Received: from 199.243.166.64 by smtp.vinden.nl; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 02:59:24 +0000 Message-ID: To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Make $851 Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:59:18 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 20.2 (++++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, We sent you an email a while ago, because you now qualify for a new mortgage. 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Kemp" writes: >There are no existing applications in this space In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue. This suggests a simple solution... The main reason why I object to something that's mostly just a gratuitously incompatible re-encoding of an existing field is because it's being pushed as a standards-track document. Because of this, users will demand that it be supported (even though they have no idea why they need it) simply because it's a standards-track RFC, and it wouldn't have been made standards-track if there wasn't some reason for having it even if we don't know what it is. Implementors then have to support yet another attribute, yet another date format, double the size of the date data in sigs because of the nead to support both the existing and new format, act in some appropriate manner when the two dates disagree (actually from existing experience with apps that deliberately set inconsistent times in signed data that allows multiple time fields, nothing ever checks this, they just pick one or the other date arbitrarily), etc etc etc. Now as you say above, the demand for this to date has been zero. This suggests that the correct track for the new time encoding is either "Experimental" or "grab a private OID and go for it", to match the actual demand from users. Russ Housley writes: >However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime(). Since they are presumably also without a RTC (thus making the inability to convert a UTCTime moot, since there's nothing to check it against), this wouldn't appear to be a real problem. (I have been informed in private mail of the existence of several C one-liners (and at least one in Fortran, this problem has been studied for awhile) to convert the ASN.1-style ASCII date to a binary format, so it's likely that the additional code needed to handle binary times would entail more overhead than a basic mktime()-equivalent). Peter. 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Thinking about this a bit more, if the goal is to save space, why not combine all of the mandatory attributes into a single meta-attribute: compactAttributes ::= SEQUENCE { signingTime GeneralisedTime, contentType OBJECT IDENTIFIER, messageDigest OCTET STRING } This would save many, many times as much space as binaryTime, and considerably simplify decoding, since there's only one meta-attribute that contains all of the signing attributes, so you eliminate all of the extra OIDs and several layers of encoding wrappers around the invidual attributes. (And I'd still have this as Experimental, pending any actual user demand for it). Peter. 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However, i am aware of smartcard > environments without mktime(). Who needs mktime to convert an Z-zone Generalizedtime or UTCTime to some binary value? The example that I have shown used gmtime, this is certainly not a complex function, it is just a small real thing. > > Russ > > At 12:14 AM 9/3/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: > >Russ Housley writes: > > > > >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are > > >using here. > > > >As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded > >systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid. I've got > >code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have > >mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once > >you've read it, but you can at least read it). I've never encountered a > >system where reading a UTCTime is a problem. > > > >Peter. > > > >[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-). > > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Sun Sep 5 13:52:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12677 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 13:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i85HCsYp005674; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i85HCs9j005673; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i85HCqtw005665 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:12:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i85H5gN18256; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:05:42 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:05:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i85H5fI12720; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:05:41 +0200 (MEST) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:05:41 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409051705.i85H5fI12720@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: ietf-smime@imc.org, dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > You read past the part about this being useful for CMS but not for > S/MIME. The situations where saving a few bytes is useful occur when > 1) the objects being signed are small, 2) signature values are small > (i.e. DSA/ECDSA, not RSA), and 3) encoding overhead is small (i.e. PER, > not BER/DER). There are no existing applications in this space, and > thus no backwards compatibilty issues. But CMS and a newly defined > attribute can be applied to future applications without having any > impact on existing apps. I don't think we are at a point to discuss whether some piece of additional data creates or does not create in which area. - The proposed indication presents information that is already being carried in another indication. - The proposed indication doesn't provide anything new. - No argument of a concrete need has been given. - All arguments concerning complexity of treatment are extreemly weak even without comparing to what has to be done already for CMS SignedData - If one assumes the availability of a PER coder/decoder and a DER signature creation/validation at the same time, then complexity is even less an argument. - If someone has problems with embedded systems that maybe some very simple subset of BER and a much more limited syntax than SignedData could be used, why stay with CMS at all? - If you want to save data, then code all relevant information inside data, and not within attributes. - unless there is an existing example for that use, included as an example inside the text, I don't think that we are even at an experimental state. - The proposition below about an alternative way does not mean at all that I think that the whole concept is useful at all, or in other words, I just made a joke. > > The other Peter's suggestion: > > Time ::= CHOICE { > utcTime UTCTime, > generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, > epochSeconds INTEGER} > > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. I guess you are right with your observation about potential problems (cf my last point above). 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Introducing 'International P harmacy Outlets Inc.'

GET IN "IPCY" NOW! HUGE NEWS FOR "IPCY" expected soon

IPCY will explode on Tuesday and Wednesday !

Watch out for it . Jump on board before.. Just like you did with EMTK

Micro CapMarketing PLAY OF THE WEEK for our invest0rs is International Pharmacy Outlets Inc. IPCY

If you tuned in lastMonday you would have seen our last week PLAY OF THE WEEK, EMTK go from Fridays's close of 10cents to a high of .95 on Thursday. That's a 800% gain in just three days.

PLAY OF THE WEEK tracks st0cks on downward trends, foresees bottom and recommends up.

IPCY is our next profile

Speculative Target price in next 1-2 DAYS: $0.24 - 0.29

Speculative Target price in next 20-30 DAYS: $0.39

International Pharmacy Outlets, Inc. is publicly traded holding company whose stock is traded over the counter under the trading symbol: IPCY. The company operates through its wholly owned subsidiaries, Caribbean Marketing Agencies, Ltd. (CMA) and AccessRX C.S. S.A. CMA is a wholesale importer/exporter of supplies and a marketing and advertising agency providing services to retail pharmacies and mail order centers located throughout the Caribbean that desire to sell to Caribbean tourists using the company's proprietary systems and turnkey marketing and customer support programs. AccessRx is a pharmaceutical customer service center operating a multi-lingual 24-hour call center for CMA's retail pharmacy and mail order pharmacy clients.

In July 2003, CMA entered into a five-year exclusive distributorship for selected countries in the Caribbean for Cipla Corporation,and the entire Caribbean for their affiliate, Nebumed. The exclusive agreement also includes duty shops worldwide, cruise ships worldwide, native American Indian reservations and U.S. military bases. CMA sells to pharmaceutical distributors, retail pharmacies, medical centers, hospitals, and government agencies throughout the Caribbean. CMA also provides marketing and advertising services targeted to Caribbean tourists traveling on cruise ships or staying in Caribbean resort hotels. CMA also licenses Caribbean retail and mail order pharmacies to provide mail order fulfillment services to Caribbean tourists. AccessRx was acquired to provide turnkey customer service for CMA licensed pharmacy outlets carrying its wholesale pharmaceutical products.

St0ck Summary

International Pharmacy Outlets, Inc., formerly Symphony Investments, Inc., changed names and changed management and control on September 14, 2003. The Controlling shareholders, IPO Holding Company, Inc., a Nevada Corporation, owns 20 million shares of preferred stock. On September 14, 2003, the Company acquired 100% of the shares of Caribbean Marketing Agencies, Ltd. (CMA) for 20 million restricted shares of common stock (restricted under SEC Rule 144). As of the current date, the company has 23,554,194 shares of common stock outstanding, listed on the pink sheets. 2,004,194 shares are float trading and in the float owned by approximately 934 shareholders. Eight International Pharmacy Outlets, Inc. directors were issued 100,000 restricted shares each for a total of 800,000 restricted shares. IPCY now has an established team of officers and directors that provide a broad base of experience in the prescription drug industry, the medical industry, and the import/export industry (see Management). The Company sold 750,000 shares of restricted stock in a private placement offering for $135,000 and a third party simultaneously paid an additional $1.5 million cash to the seller for the AccessRx's customerlist.

Speculative Target price in next 1-2 DAYS: $0.24 - 0.29

Speculative Target price in next 20-30 DAYS: $0.39

Information within this email contains "forward looking statements" within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, goals, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be "forward looking statements." Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as: "projects", "foresee", "expects", "estimates," "believes," "understands" "will," "part of: "anticipates," or that by statements indicating certain actions "may," "could," or "might" occur. All information provided within this email pertaining to investing, st0cks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. Emerging Equity Alert advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this email. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice. Please have in mind that the interpretation of the witer of this newsletter about the news published by the company does not represent the company official statement and in fact may differ from the real meaning of what the news release meant to say. Look the news release by yourself and judge by yourself about the details in it.

In compliance with Section 17(b), we disclose the holding of IPCY shares prior to the publication of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such holdings due to our intent to profit from the liquidation of these shares. Shares may be sold at any time, even after positive statements have been made regarding the above company. Since we own shares, there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions. Readers of this publication are cautioned not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements, which are based on certain assumptions and expectations involving various risks and uncertainties, that could cause results to differ materially from those set forth in the forward- looking statements.

Please be advised that nothing within this email shall constitute a solicitation or an invitation to get position in or sell any security mentioned herein. This newsletter is neither a registered investment advisor nor affiliated with any broker or dealer. All statements made are our express opinion only and should be treated as such. We may own, take position and sell any securities mentioned at any time. This report includes forward-looking statements within the meaning of The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements may include terms as "expect", "believe", "may", "will", "move","undervalued" and "intend" or similar terms. This newsletter was paid $11300 from third party to send this report. PLEASE DO YOUROWN DUE DILIGENCE BEFORE INVESTING IN ANY PROFILED COMPANY. You may lose money from investing in Penny St0cks.

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Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. (OTCBB: GENX)

Chinese Biotech Company Producing Reconstituted Bone Xenograft (RBX) Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire Vitamin B1 Manufacturer that Posted US $16 MILLI0N in Revenue for Fiscal 2003 and Net Income of Approximately US $3 MILLI0N

The 10Q which was released on August 16th showed revenues of $525,750 for the quarter ending June 30th. vs. $98,763 for the same period a year ago. Net Income three months ended June 30, 2004: $151,904 vs. a loss of $3,929 for the same period a year ago.

About Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc.

Product Distributed to 400 Hospitals in 22 Provinces

Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. is a biomedical technology company with distinctive proprietary technology for an orthopedic device that treats bone-related injuries. Headquartered in Tianjin, China, the Company manufactures and distributes Reconstituted Bone Xenograft (RBX), to 400 hospitals in 22 provinces throughout mainland China. RBX is approved by the State Food and Drug Administration (SFDA) in China (the Chinese government agency that regulates drugs and medical devices). RBX offers a modern alternative to traditional methods of treating orthopedic injuries. (Source: News Release 7/27/04)

Recent Press Release Headlines:

The Good News Keeps on Coming for GENX - Go Read the Full Stories!

*Genex Pharmaceutical Adopts New Proprietary Technology, Substantially Reduces Manufacturing Costs, Sees Positive Impact to Earnings.

*Genex Pharmaceutical Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire One of the World's Largest Producers of Vitamin B1.

*Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Strong Earnings Growth for 2004 and 2005.

*Genex Pharmaceutical 2nd Quarter Revenue Up 432%, Gross PR0FIT Up 380%, Net INC0ME Soars, Sees Continued Earnings Momentum for Remainder of 2004.

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DIS-CLAIMER: Information within this ema-il contains F0RWARD looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements. Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects , foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with many micro-cap stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth noting. Those factors include: a limited operating history: the company advancing cash to related parties and a shareholder on an unsecured basis: one vendor, a related party through a majority stockholder, supplies ninety-seven percent of the company's raw materials: reliance on two customers for over fifty percent of their business and numerous related party transactions and the need to raise capital.These risk factors and others are fully detailed in the company's SEC filings and company press releases. We urge you to read them before you invest. The Publisher of this letter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading.All information provided within this ema-il pertaining to investing, ST0CKS or securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this letter advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this ema-il. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this letter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. Any reference to past performance(s) of companies are specially selected to be referenced based on the favorable performance of these companies. You would need perfect timing to acheive the results in the examples given. There can be no assurance of that happening.Remember, as always, past performance is ne-ver indicative of future results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a review of a company's filings, should be completed prior to investing. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17(b),The Publisher of this letter discloses the receipt of thirty three thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adver-tisement and is not without bias. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC Filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this letter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guar-antee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this ema-il constitutes your acceptance of these terms. duncan ,bryophyte .

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---bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy-- -- End -- ---bkGI5ziJ-i-- From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 7 07:40:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14377 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87BFvXb012945; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87BFvBx012943; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp004.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp004.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.175.81]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i87BFvZI012936 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.78.17 with plain) by smtp004.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2004 11:15:56 -0000 Message-ID: <413D976C.1030204@ieca.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:11:40 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SMIME Subject: Re: Charter Modification References: <4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com> In-Reply-To: <4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested changes.   As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.

Sean P. Turner wrote:
All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.  Please respond with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt 


S/MIME Mail Security (smime)

Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>


Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>

Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.

The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.

To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.

CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.
Stike the following
To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.
And replace it with:

To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and other S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) in addition to that currently specified 
The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.

Milestones:

History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard

September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC

January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix 

February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification

January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 7 07:55:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15035 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87BZQ22015460; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87BZQTi015459; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.175.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i87BZPlR015450 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:35:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.78.17 with plain) by smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2004 11:35:26 -0000 Message-ID: <413D9BFE.9090100@ieca.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:31:10 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Housley, Russ" , SMIME Subject: [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000806030301030709020101" Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000806030301030709020101 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ,

The S/MIME examples ID has passed working group last call.  We'd like to move it IETF Last Call.

Cheers,

spt

-------- Original Message --------

Please refer all questions, opinions or additional feedback to:
Service Dept
9420 Reseda Blvd #133
Northridge, CA 91324
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:15:46 -0400
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ietf-smime@imc.org 


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Examples of S/MIME Messages
	Author(s)	: P. Hoffman
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt
	Pages		: 8
	Date		: 2004-8-25
	
This document gives examples of message bodies formatted using S/MIME.
Specifically, it has examples of Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)
objects and S/MIME messages (including the MIME formatting).
It includes examples of many common CMS formats. The purpose of this document is to help increase interoperability for S/MIME and other protocols that rely on CMS.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt

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NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
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--------------000806030301030709020101 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-8-25145614.I-D@ietf.org> --------------000806030301030709020101-- From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 7 10:00:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23121 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87DWZ7W028533; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:32:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87DWZIW028532; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87DWYve028511 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:32:26 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C494DF.1D4888F8" Subject: RE: Charter Modification Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:31:53 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D013960D1@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: Charter Modification Thread-Index: AcSUz5j9vxUJWaetTJajam/CiFFj/wADF7GA From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Sean P. Turner" , "SMIME" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2004 13:32:26.0672 (UTC) FILETIME=[1D7F5B00:01C494DF] Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C494DF.1D4888F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This text sounds as it implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities issue. =20 I don't oppose this change but suggest then that we change "a specification will be developed" to "specifications will be developed". =20 The type of complex approaches recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of sMIMECapabilities doesn't mix very well with the simple and direct task to document the use of the existing attribute structure as a certificate extension. =20 I therefore strongly suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent discussed expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG assigns another editor for that work. I don't have the time and capacity to edit that specification. Stefan Santesson=20 Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)=20 =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner Sent: den 7 september 2004 13:12 To: SMIME Subject: Re: Charter Modification =20 I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested changes. As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group. Sean P. Turner wrote: All, To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some are way off). Attached is the proposed modification. Please respond with any comments by Friday. Cheers, spt=20 =20 ________________________________ =20 =20 S/MIME Mail Security (smime) =20 Chair: Sean Turner =20 Blake Ramsdell =20 =20 =20 Security Area Director: Russ Housley =20 Steve Belovin =20 =20 Security Area Advisor: Russ Housley =20 =20 Mailing Lists: General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/ =20 Description of Working Group: =20 The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications. =20 The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed. =20 To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document. =20 CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent. =20 Stike the following =20 To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group. =20 And replace it with: To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and other S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) in addition to that currently specified=20 =20 The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005. =20 Milestones: =20 History Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard. Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC. Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC. Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard. Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard. Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC. Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification. Last call on X.400 transport specification. Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification. Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification. Last call on AES algorithm specification. Last call on update to MSG. First draft of update to CERT. First draft of CMS and ESS examples document. First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix. First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard. Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard. Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard. Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard. Last call on CMS and ESS examples document. Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard. Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard. First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification. Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard =20 September 04 Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension =20 October 04 Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension =20 December 04 Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC =20 January 05 Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix=20 =20 February 05 Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification =20 January 06 Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard ------_=_NextPart_001_01C494DF.1D4888F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This text sounds = as it implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities = issue.

 =

I don’t = oppose this change but suggest then that we change ”a specification will be developed“ to “specifications will be = developed”.

 =

The type of = complex approaches recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of = sMIMECapabilities doesn’t mix very well with the simple and direct task to document = the use of the existing attribute structure as a certificate = extension.

 =

I therefore = strongly suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent = discussed expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG = assigns another editor for that work.

I don’t = have the time and capacity to edit that = specification.

Stefan = Santesson
Microsoft = Security Center of = Excellence = (SCOE)
 

From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: den 7 september = 2004 13:12
To: SMIME
Subject: Re: Charter = Modification

 

I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ = with Tony's suggested changes.   As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.

Sean P. Turner wrote:

All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the = working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some = are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.  Please respond = with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt 

 






 
 
S/MIME Mail Security =
(smime)
 
Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com><=
/span>
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
 
 
Security Area =
Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>
 
Security Area =
Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
 
Mailing =
Lists:
     General Discussion: =
ietf-smime@imc.org
     To =
Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org=

     =
Archive:           =
; http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/
 
Description of Working =
Group:
 
The S/MIME Working Group has completed a =
series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 =
specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of =
"mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current =
efforts update and build upon these base =
specifications.
 
The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC =
3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more =
than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each =
algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. =
Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will =
be developed.
 
To aid implementers, documents containing =
example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the =
examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the =
Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) =
document.
 
CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, =
permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. =
Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to =
multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) =
areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be =
algorithm independent.
 

Stike the following

 
To aid initial determination of recipient's =
cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing =
S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates =
based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX =
Working Group.
 

And replace it with:

To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and = other S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) = in addition to that currently specified 

 
The working group will perform necessary =
interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to =
Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This =
profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME =
specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress =
by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start =
progressing to Draft Standard in =
2005.
 
Milestones:
 
History
     Submit CMS =
compressed data content type a Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit security =
label usage specification as Informational =
RFC.
     Submit elliptic =
curve algorithm specification as Informational =
RFC.
     Submit update to CMS =
as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS =
Algorithms as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap =
algorithm description as Informational =
RFC.
     Last call on X.400 =
CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 =
transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC =
key wrap description =
specification.
     Last call on RSA =
OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES =
algorithm specification.
     Last call on update =
to MSG.
     First draft of =
update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS =
and ESS examples document.
     First draft of =
S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability =
matrix.
     First draft of RSA =
PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key =
distribution as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap =
description as Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP =
algorithm specification as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm =
specification as Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS =
wrapper specification as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit X.400 =
transport as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Last call on CMS and =
ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to =
CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG =
as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA =
KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS =
algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS =
algorithm specification as Proposed =
Standard
 
September =
04
     Submit CMS and ESS =
examples document as Informational =
RFC
     First draft of =
S/MIME Capabilities Certificate =
Extension
 
October =
04
     Working Group Last =
Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate =
Extension
 
December =
04
     Submit S/MIME =
Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational =
RFC
 
January =
05
     Final S/MIME version =
3.1 interoperability matrix 
 
February =
05
     Request advancement =
of CMS Algorithms to Draft =
Standard
     Request advancement =
of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement =
of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement =
of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement =
of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM =
algorithm specification
 
January =
06
     Submit RSA KEM =
algorithm specification as Proposed =
Standard
------_=_NextPart_001_01C494DF.1D4888F8-- From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 7 10:56:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28034 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87EWh27034347; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87EWh8W034346; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i87EWgHT034338 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 17790 invoked by uid 0); 7 Sep 2004 14:32:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.217.218) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2004 14:32:41 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040907103309.07b66008@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:33:35 -0400 To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann), dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, ietf-smime@imc.org From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt In-Reply-To: References: <200409031846.i83IklIQ015817@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: So, if it were an experimental document, you would have not issues? Russ At 02:22 AM 9/5/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: >"David P. Kemp" writes: > > >There are no existing applications in this space > >In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing >need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue. >This suggests a simple solution... > >The main reason why I object to something that's mostly just a gratuitously >incompatible re-encoding of an existing field is because it's being pushed as >a standards-track document. Because of this, users will demand that it be >supported (even though they have no idea why they need it) simply because it's >a standards-track RFC, and it wouldn't have been made standards-track if there >wasn't some reason for having it even if we don't know what it is. >Implementors then have to support yet another attribute, yet another date >format, double the size of the date data in sigs because of the nead to >support both the existing and new format, act in some appropriate manner when >the two dates disagree (actually from existing experience with apps that >deliberately set inconsistent times in signed data that allows multiple time >fields, nothing ever checks this, they just pick one or the other date >arbitrarily), etc etc etc. > >Now as you say above, the demand for this to date has been zero. This >suggests that the correct track for the new time encoding is either >"Experimental" or "grab a private OID and go for it", to match the actual >demand from users. > >Russ Housley writes: > > >However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime(). > >Since they are presumably also without a RTC (thus making the inability to >convert a UTCTime moot, since there's nothing to check it against), this >wouldn't appear to be a real problem. > >(I have been informed in private mail of the existence of several C one-liners > (and at least one in Fortran, this problem has been studied for awhile) to > convert the ASN.1-style ASCII date to a binary format, so it's likely that > the additional code needed to handle binary times would entail more overhead > than a basic mktime()-equivalent). > >Peter. From WRXXRMZDOZWY@xtra.co.nz Tue Sep 7 13:05:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10368 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chello083144106082.chello.pl ([83.144.106.82]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4jSm-0000Xw-6A for smime-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:09:09 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Marcel Vickers" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Zyban now offered with No prescription chess Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:58:39 -0400 X-Mailer: fussy dehumidify drizzly-burdensome: guaranteeing optic ingest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--0538050092905798" X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 ----0538050092905798 Content-Type: text/plain; ----0538050092905798 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE fright brandy breathtaking

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:

This text sounds as it implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities issue.

 

I don’t oppose this change but suggest then that we change ”a specification will be developed“ to “specifications will be developed”.

 

The type of complex approaches recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of sMIMECapabilities doesn’t mix very well with the simple and direct task to document the use of the existing attribute structure as a certificate extension.

 

I therefore strongly suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent discussed expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG assigns another editor for that work.

I don’t have the time and capacity to edit that specification.

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: den 7 september 2004 13:12
To: SMIME
Subject: Re: Charter Modification

 

I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested changes.   As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.

Sean P. Turner wrote:

All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.  Please respond with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt 

 






 
 
S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
 
Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
 
 
Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>
 
Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
 
Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/
 
Description of Working Group:
 
The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.
 
The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.
 
To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.
 
CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.
 

Stike the following

 
To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.
 

And replace it with:

To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and other S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) in addition to that currently specified 

 
The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.
 
Milestones:
 
History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
 
September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
 
October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
 
December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC
 
January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix 
 
February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification
 
January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
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Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. is a biomedical technology company with distinctive proprietary technology for an orthopedic device that treats bone-related injuries. Headquartered in Tianjin, China, the Company manufactures and distributes Reconstituted Bone Xenograft (RBX), to 400 hospitals in 22 provinces throughout mainland China. RBX is approved by the State Food and Drug Administration (SFDA) in China (the Chinese government agency that regulates drugs and medical devices). RBX offers a modern alternative to traditional methods of treating orthopedic injuries. (Source: News Release 7/27/04)

Recent Press Release Headlines:

The Good News Keeps on Coming for GENX - Go Read the Full Stories!

*Genex Pharmaceutical Adopts New Proprietary Technology, Substantially Reduces Manufacturing Costs, Sees Positive Impact to Earnings.

*Genex Pharmaceutical Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire One of the World's Largest Producers of Vitamin B1.

*Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Strong Earnings Growth for 2004 and 2005.

*Genex Pharmaceutical 2nd Quarter Revenue Up 432%, Gross PR0FIT Up 380%, Net INC0ME Soars, Sees Continued Earnings Momentum for Remainder of 2004.

Strongly Consider The Following:

Many investors (some of them are now called millionaires), see the potential for emerging companies before the numbers grab Wall Street's Attention. That 's how the big money is made! Were they just lucky? I don't think so- and as an investor, I suspect you don't either. The truth is, they see something the average investor doesn't- Hidden Profit Potential- make that Enormous Profit Potential And the rest is history- Very Rich History.

Read the announcements GENX has made. Look at the Company. Read the Filings. Do you see the Potential for Explosive Growth? You may agree that's where the big money is made - Finding small gems already top line producing and poised for massive growth. Consider GENX for your portfolio today. Good Luck and Successful Investing.

DIS-CLAIMER: Information within this ema-il contains F0RWARD looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements. Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects , foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with many micro-cap stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth noting. Those factors include: a limited operating history: the company advancing cash to related parties and a shareholder on an unsecured basis: one vendor, a related party through a majority stockholder, supplies ninety-seven percent of the company's raw materials: reliance on two customers for over fifty percent of their business and numerous related party transactions and the need to raise capital.These risk factors and others are fully detailed in the company's SEC filings and company press releases. We urge you to read them before you invest. The Publisher of this letter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading.All information provided within this ema-il pertaining to investing, ST0CKS or securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this letter advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this ema-il. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this letter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. Any reference to past performance(s) of companies are specially selected to be referenced based on the favorable performance of these companies. You would need perfect timing to acheive the results in the examples given. There can be no assurance of that happening.Remember, as always, past performance is ne-ver indicative of future results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a review of a company's filings, should be completed prior to investing. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17(b),The Publisher of this letter discloses the receipt of thirty three thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adver-tisement and is not without bias. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC Filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this letter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guar-antee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this ema-il constitutes your acceptance of these terms.

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Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. (OTCBB: GENX)

Chinese Biotech Company Producing Reconstituted Bone Xenograft (RBX) Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire Vitamin B1 Manufacturer that Posted US $16 MILLI0N in Revenue for Fiscal 2003 and Net Income of Approximately US $3 MILLI0N

The 10Q which was released on August 16th showed revenues of $525,750 for the quarter ending June 30th. vs. $98,763 for the same period a year ago. Net Income three months ended June 30, 2004: $151,904 vs. a loss of $3,929 for the same period a year ago.

About Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc.

Product Distributed to 400 Hospitals in 22 Provinces

Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. is a biomedical technology company with distinctive proprietary technology for an orthopedic device that treats bone-related injuries. Headquartered in Tianjin, China, the Company manufactures and distributes Reconstituted Bone Xenograft (RBX), to 400 hospitals in 22 provinces throughout mainland China. RBX is approved by the State Food and Drug Administration (SFDA) in China (the Chinese government agency that regulates drugs and medical devices). RBX offers a modern alternative to traditional methods of treating orthopedic injuries. (Source: News Release 7/27/04)

Recent Press Release Headlines:

The Good News Keeps on Coming for GENX - Go Read the Full Stories!

*Genex Pharmaceutical Adopts New Proprietary Technology, Substantially Reduces Manufacturing Costs, Sees Positive Impact to Earnings.

*Genex Pharmaceutical Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire One of the World's Largest Producers of Vitamin B1.

*Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Strong Earnings Growth for 2004 and 2005.

*Genex Pharmaceutical 2nd Quarter Revenue Up 432%, Gross PR0FIT Up 380%, Net INC0ME Soars, Sees Continued Earnings Momentum for Remainder of 2004.

Strongly Consider The Following:

Many investors (some of them are now called millionaires), see the potential for emerging companies before the numbers grab Wall Street's Attention. That 's how the big money is made! Were they just lucky? I don't think so- and as an investor, I suspect you don't either. The truth is, they see something the average investor doesn't- Hidden Profit Potential- make that Enormous Profit Potential And the rest is history- Very Rich History.

Read the announcements GENX has made. Look at the Company. Read the Filings. Do you see the Potential for Explosive Growth? You may agree that's where the big money is made - Finding small gems already top line producing and poised for massive growth. Consider GENX for your portfolio today. Good Luck and Successful Investing.

DIS-CLAIMER: Information within this ema-il contains F0RWARD looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements. Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects , foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with many micro-cap stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth noting. Those factors include: a limited operating history: the company advancing cash to related parties and a shareholder on an unsecured basis: one vendor, a related party through a majority stockholder, supplies ninety-seven percent of the company's raw materials: reliance on two customers for over fifty percent of their business and numerous related party transactions and the need to raise capital.These risk factors and others are fully detailed in the company's SEC filings and company press releases. We urge you to read them before you invest. The Publisher of this letter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading.All information provided within this ema-il pertaining to investing, ST0CKS or securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this letter advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this ema-il. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this letter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. Any reference to past performance(s) of companies are specially selected to be referenced based on the favorable performance of these companies. You would need perfect timing to acheive the results in the examples given. There can be no assurance of that happening.Remember, as always, past performance is ne-ver indicative of future results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a review of a company's filings, should be completed prior to investing. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17(b),The Publisher of this letter discloses the receipt of thirty three thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adver-tisement and is not without bias. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC Filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this letter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guar-antee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this ema-il constitutes your acceptance of these terms.

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--------------------------------------------------------------

Information within this email contains forward looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, goals, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements. Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. This newsletter was paid $11300 from third party to send this report.

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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 9 17:34:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03810 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i89LDdGm099294; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i89LDdhd099293; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com (smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i89LDcgB099287 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:13:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.87.161 with plain) by smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Sep 2004 21:13:37 -0000 Message-ID: <41405AE0.3050201@ieca.com> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:30:08 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Santesson , Tony Capel CC: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) References: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All,

After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts. 

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:

Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    
of
  
scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    
and
  
it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    
that.
  
This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    
should
  
make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    
the
  
well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    
simple to
  
do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    
Those
  
guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    
message
  
on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    
CRL's
  
by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    
provide
  
sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    
it
  
will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    
The
  
server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    
is
  
the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    
all
  
the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    
reaction.
  
If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    
the
  
extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    
more
  
palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| >
| > Stefan:
| >
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| >
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| >
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    
and
  
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| >
| >
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    
used
  
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| >
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    
as
  
| well.
| >
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    
binding
  
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    
are
  
| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| >
|
|
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 10 03:45:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA00873 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8A7ODO1003609; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8A7ODDR003608; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:24:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur.microsoft.com (mail-eur.microsoft.com [213.199.128.145]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8A7OCUv003566 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:24:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:23:43 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:24:00 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D013C0E7C@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) Thread-Index: AcSWseEhpsuP987fQDqyGlKwdPwMcQAUyaHA From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Sean P. Turner" , "Tony Capel" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2004 07:23:43.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A216D20:01C49707] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i8A7ODUv003599 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sean, I fully agree. I have no fear that these specifications will overlap since they will specify entirely different type of certificate content and will represent fully distinguishable options. /Stefan   ________________________________________ From: Sean P. Turner [mailto:turners@ieca.com] Sent: den 9 september 2004 15:30 To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) All, After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and ! they're both optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts.  spt Stefan Santesson wrote: Tony, I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you oversimplify this issue. Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of the null signed message. If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities. If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well. And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data. Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with renewed certs or multiple valid certs. Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons, revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies, etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions. The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple! I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which should be done before end of this year. There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of the current spec use the already established structure for the sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway. If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC. And I'm not the guy to lead that effort. Maybe you are? :-) Stefan Santesson Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE) -----Original Message----- From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18 To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Stefan: I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation of scope. Please bear with me. Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, and it seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do that. This is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we should make sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to the well too often ;-). To do that we need to consider what is quick and simple to do today and also where we might go. So I think this discussion now is valuable. I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made complex as you demonstrate. The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts). Those guys did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, SMTP, or whatever when they defined it. They only worried about what the CRL format was to be. In our case I propose we already have a format: a null signed message. Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be carried in a null signed message too. I suspect that if I posted a null signed message on a website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even work today (??). And frankly, if an organization is already distributing CRL's by whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to provide sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and it will also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!). The server just responds with a static null signed item. Processing on receipt is the same as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages. I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks that the only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick all the sMIMECapabilities into the cert. I think we will get a negative reaction. If it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more efficient, we have a better chance. I have also mentioned that we should make the extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it more palatable, but that's another thread.... Tony | -----Original Message----- | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | | | Tony, | | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic | sMIMECapabilities! | | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this | take off in a million directions. | | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out | how you will structure the extension referring to this data | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, | ldap, ftp. | | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to | distinguish between capabilities for different applications | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if | there might be a reason to let different entities sign | different parts of the capabilities data. | | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some | certificates gets revoked or renewed. | | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that | would be if it is.... | | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to | make a bet:-) | | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. | | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it | own project. | | /Stefan | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | > | > Stefan: | > | > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. | > | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of | > | complexity. | > | | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the | framework for | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. | > | > This does not require the server to create authenticated | data on-line, | the | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or | end entity, | or | > an | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were | put in the | > cert itself. Whoever (CA | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and | sign | > the | > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed | item is then | > stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the | sMIMECapabilities | > are | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). | > | > | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution | Specification" | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used | to | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the | issue | > of | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the | sMIMECapabilities | > and the | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). | > | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as | well. | > | > | > Tony | > | > | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the | moment. | > I | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding | even | > if | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end | systems | > is not | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to | specific | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are | > probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method | > inherently | securely | > binds | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this | is a NICE | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed. 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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 10 10:09:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28346 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8ADeuKQ091853; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8ADeum6091852; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8ADetY2091846 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail4.magma.ca (mail4.magma.ca [206.191.0.222]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i8ADesLT022272; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:40:55 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail4.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i8ADejwo010391; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:40:54 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: "'Sean P. Turner'" , "'Stefan Santesson'" Cc: Subject: RE: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:43:01 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c4973c$1b00b680$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C4971A.93EF1680" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <41405AE0.3050201@ieca.com> Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C4971A.93EF1680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sean: =20 I have no problem with this approach, (although even when specified as "optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - = potentially complete with "silent revocation/renewal"). =20 I fully agree with your comments about potential "dynamic" approach(s). Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever "ways to = make certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not = already) that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other information = (sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or otherwise) as well = as just the pki certs.=20 =20 Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org = [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner Sent: September 9, 2004 9:30 AM To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) All, After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one = for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability. I base this = on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty = much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), = compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board. If = another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will = discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case. My only caution is that I = don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates = that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if = people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make = certificate use and deployment easy." I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but = they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both = optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts. = =20 spt Stefan Santesson wrote: Tony, I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you oversimplify this issue. Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of the null signed message. If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities. If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well. And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data. Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with renewed certs or multiple valid certs. Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons, revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies, etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions. The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple! I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which should be done before end of this year. There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of the current spec use the already established structure for the sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway. If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC. And I'm not the guy to lead that effort. Maybe you are? :-) Stefan Santesson Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE) =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18 To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Stefan: I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation =20 of =20 scope. Please bear with me. Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, =20 and =20 it seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do =20 that. =20 This is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we =20 should =20 make sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to =20 the =20 well too often ;-). To do that we need to consider what is quick and =20 simple to =20 do today and also where we might go. So I think this discussion now is valuable. I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made complex as you demonstrate. The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts). =20 Those =20 guys did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, SMTP, or whatever when they defined it. They only worried about what the CRL format was to be. In our case I propose we already have a format: a null signed message. Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be carried in a null signed message too. I suspect that if I posted a null signed =20 message =20 on a website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even work today (??). And frankly, if an organization is already distributing =20 CRL's =20 by whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to =20 provide =20 sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and =20 it =20 will also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!). =20 The =20 server just responds with a static null signed item. Processing on receipt =20 is =20 the same as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages. I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks that the only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick =20 all =20 the sMIMECapabilities into the cert. I think we will get a negative =20 reaction. =20 If it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more efficient, we have a better chance. I have also mentioned that we should make =20 the =20 extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it =20 more =20 palatable, but that's another thread.... Tony | -----Original Message----- | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | | | Tony, | | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic | sMIMECapabilities! | | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this | take off in a million directions. | | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out | how you will structure the extension referring to this data | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, | ldap, ftp. | | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to | distinguish between capabilities for different applications | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if | there might be a reason to let different entities sign | different parts of the capabilities data. | | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some | certificates gets revoked or renewed. | | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that | would be if it is.... | | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to | make a bet:-) | | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. | | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it | own project. | | /Stefan | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | > | > Stefan: | > | > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. | > | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of | > | complexity. | > | | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the | framework for | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. | > | > This does not require the server to create authenticated | data on-line, | the | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or | end entity, | or | > an | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were | put in the | > cert itself. Whoever (CA | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create =20 and =20 | sign | > the | > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed | item is then | > stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the | sMIMECapabilities | > are | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). | > | > | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution | Specification" | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be =20 used =20 | to | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the | issue | > of | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the | sMIMECapabilities | > and the | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). | > | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order =20 as =20 | well. | > | > | > Tony | > | > | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the | moment. | > I | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such =20 binding =20 | even | > if | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end | systems | > is not | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to | specific | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities =20 are =20 | > probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method | > inherently | securely | > binds | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this | is a NICE | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional | > considerations | are | > needed | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. | > | | =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C4971A.93EF1680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Sean:
 
I=20 have no problem with this approach, (although even when specified = as=20 "optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - = potentially=20 complete with "silent revocation/renewal").
 
I=20 fully agree with your comments about potential "dynamic" = approach(s). =20 Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever = "ways to make=20 certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not=20 already) that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other = information=20 (sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or=20 otherwise) as well as just the pki certs. 
 
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] = On=20 Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: September 9, 2004 9:30=20 AM
To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel
Cc:=20 ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Static vs Dynamic = sMIMECapabilities=20 draft(s)

All,

After following the = discussion, I=20 think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and = one for=20 the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame = necessary to=20 complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the = security=20 considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" = draft, which=20 is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is = produced=20 that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we = are=20 discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I = don't want=20 the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's = already=20 covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people = think that=20 those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in = Washington=20 that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and = deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing = but=20 they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and = they're both=20 optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in = separate=20 drafts. 

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:
Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
=20

  
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    
of
  
scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    
and
  
it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    
that.
  
This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    
should
  
make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    
the
  
well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    
simple to
  
do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    
Those
  
guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    
message
  
on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    
CRL's
  
by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    
provide
  
sMIMECapabilities in a null =
signed message is not much more work (and
    
it
  
will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    
The
  
server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    
is
  
the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    
all
  
the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    
reaction.
  
If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    
the
  
extension more =
application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    
more
  
palatable, but that's =
another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| >
| > Stefan:
| >
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| >
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not =
a
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small =
thing.
| >
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    
and
  
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| >
| >
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    
used
  
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises =
the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| >
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    
as
  
| well.
| >
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    
binding
  
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    
are
  
| > probably cached =
under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| >
|
|
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Breaking News At The Close Thursday September 9, 2004

Bodisen Biotech (0TCBB:BBOI)

The Good News Just Keeps on Coming for BBOI:

Press Release Source: Bodisen Biotech, Inc.

Bodisen Biotech Receives $4.2 MILLI0N in Contracts, Sees Strong 3rd Quarter Financial Performance.

Thursday September 9, 3:59 pm ET

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 9, 2004--Bodisen Biotech, Inc., (stock symbol: BBOI) announced today that the company has recently recei-ved $4.2 MILLI0N in contracts for 3rd quarter 2004 product delivery from several wholesale customers. The company's 3rd quarter ends on September 30, 2004.

Bodisen Biotech, a Delaware corporation, is a biotech company with proprietary technologies for developing, manufacturing and marketing environmentally friendly organic agricultural products for the Chinese markets.

Ms. Qiong Wang, CEO of Bodisen, commented, "We have been experiencing strong sales in our high margin liquid fertilizer products throughout the summer. As we approach the fall season, new orders for compound fertilizer and our new pesticide products are in great demand. We generated record earnings of $0.12 per share in the 2nd quarter. We look forward to a strong 3rd quarter."

Using proprietary technologies, Bodisen sells over 60 packaged products, broken down into 3 product categories: Organic Compound Fertilizer; Organic Liquid Fertilizer; and Pesticides & Insecticides. Bodisen's organic fertilizers can be absorbed by plants within 48 hours while enriching soil conditions without the damaging effects associated with chemical fertilizers.

About Bodisen Biotech, Inc.

Bodisen is headquartered in Shaanxi, China, an agricultural hub of China and the economic gateway to the western regions of China. The Bodisen brand is a highly respected organic brand in China. Its "green" products support the mandate of the Chinese national government to incr-ease crop yields for the purpose of decreasing China's dependency on food imports. Bodisen's products enjoy brand recognition and a price premium over competitive brands in China. With distribution in 20 provinces and an expanding geographic footprint, Bodisen is well positioned to take advantage of the growing demand for organic bio agricultural products in China.

Safe Harbor Statement

This press release may contain F0RWARD-looking statements within the meaning of the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements are based on the current expectations or beliefs of Bodisen Biotech, Inc. management and are subject to a number of factors and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those described in the F0RWARD-looking statements.

How will the stock react tomorrow to today's news? Go read the other news announcements. Do your homework on this company. You may want to add it to your portfolio. No hype, no bull. Just a growing company. Make an informed decision.

Good Luck and Succesful Trading!

Information within this ema-il contains "F0RWARD looking statements" within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be "F0RWARD looking statements."F0RWARD looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. F0RWARD looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as "projects", "foresee", "expects", "will," "anticipates," "estimates," "believes," "understands" or that by statements indicating certain actions "may," "could," or "might" occur. There can be no assurance of that happening. The Publisher of this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading.All information provided within this ema-il pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this newsletter advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this ema-il. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation.Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this newsletter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17(b),the Publisher of this newsletter discloses the receipt of sixteen thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder of the company for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adverti-sement. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this newsletter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guar-antee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this email constitutes your acceptance of these terms.

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Breaking News At The Close Thursday September 9, 2004

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The Good News Just Keeps on Coming for BBOI:

Press Release Source: Bodisen Biotech, Inc.

Bodisen Biotech Receives $4.2 MILLI0N in Contracts, Sees Strong 3rd Quarter Financial Performance.

Thursday September 9, 3:59 pm ET

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 9, 2004--Bodisen Biotech, Inc., (stock symbol: BBOI) announced today that the company has recently recei-ved $4.2 MILLI0N in contracts for 3rd quarter 2004 product delivery from several wholesale customers. The company's 3rd quarter ends on September 30, 2004.

Bodisen Biotech, a Delaware corporation, is a biotech company with proprietary technologies for developing, manufacturing and marketing environmentally friendly organic agricultural products for the Chinese markets.

Ms. Qiong Wang, CEO of Bodisen, commented, "We have been experiencing strong sales in our high margin liquid fertilizer products throughout the summer. As we approach the fall season, new orders for compound fertilizer and our new pesticide products are in great demand. We generated record earnings of $0.12 per share in the 2nd quarter. We look forward to a strong 3rd quarter."

Using proprietary technologies, Bodisen sells over 60 packaged products, broken down into 3 product categories: Organic Compound Fertilizer; Organic Liquid Fertilizer; and Pesticides & Insecticides. Bodisen's organic fertilizers can be absorbed by plants within 48 hours while enriching soil conditions without the damaging effects associated with chemical fertilizers.

About Bodisen Biotech, Inc.

Bodisen is headquartered in Shaanxi, China, an agricultural hub of China and the economic gateway to the western regions of China. The Bodisen brand is a highly respected organic brand in China. Its "green" products support the mandate of the Chinese national government to incr-ease crop yields for the purpose of decreasing China's dependency on food imports. Bodisen's products enjoy brand recognition and a price premium over competitive brands in China. With distribution in 20 provinces and an expanding geographic footprint, Bodisen is well positioned to take advantage of the growing demand for organic bio agricultural products in China.

Safe Harbor Statement

This press release may contain F0RWARD-looking statements within the meaning of the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements are based on the current expectations or beliefs of Bodisen Biotech, Inc. management and are subject to a number of factors and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those described in the F0RWARD-looking statements.

How will the stock react tomorrow to today's news? Go read the other news announcements. Do your homework on this company. You may want to add it to your portfolio. No hype, no bull. Just a growing company. Make an informed decision.

Good Luck and Succesful Trading!

Information within this ema-il contains "F0RWARD looking statements" within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be "F0RWARD looking statements."F0RWARD looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. F0RWARD looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as "projects", "foresee", "expects", "will," "anticipates," "estimates," "believes," "understands" or that by statements indicating certain actions "may," "could," or "might" occur. There can be no assurance of that happening. The Publisher of this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading.All information provided within this ema-il pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this newsletter advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this ema-il. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation.Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this newsletter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17(b),the Publisher of this newsletter discloses the receipt of sixteen thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder of the company for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adverti-sement. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this newsletter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guar-antee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this email constitutes your acceptance of these terms.

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Breaking News At The Close Thursday September 9, 2004

Bodisen Biotech (0TCBB:BBOI)

The Good News Just Keeps on Coming for BBOI:

Press Release Source: Bodisen Biotech, Inc.

Bodisen Biotech Receives $4.2 MILLI0N in Contracts, Sees Strong 3rd Quarter Financial Performance.

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Bodisen Biotech, a Delaware corporation, is a biotech company with proprietary technologies for developing, manufacturing and marketing environmentally friendly organic agricultural products for the Chinese markets.

Ms. Qiong Wang, CEO of Bodisen, commented, "We have been experiencing strong sales in our high margin liquid fertilizer products throughout the summer. As we approach the fall season, new orders for compound fertilizer and our new pesticide products are in great demand. We generated record earnings of $0.12 per share in the 2nd quarter. We look forward to a strong 3rd quarter."

Using proprietary technologies, Bodisen sells over 60 packaged products, broken down into 3 product categories: Organic Compound Fertilizer; Organic Liquid Fertilizer; and Pesticides & Insecticides. Bodisen's organic fertilizers can be absorbed by plants within 48 hours while enriching soil conditions without the damaging effects associated with chemical fertilizers.

About Bodisen Biotech, Inc.

Bodisen is headquartered in Shaanxi, China, an agricultural hub of China and the economic gateway to the western regions of China. The Bodisen brand is a highly respected organic brand in China. Its "green" products support the mandate of the Chinese national government to incr-ease crop yields for the purpose of decreasing China's dependency on food imports. Bodisen's products enjoy brand recognition and a price premium over competitive brands in China. With distribution in 20 provinces and an expanding geographic footprint, Bodisen is well positioned to take advantage of the growing demand for organic bio agricultural products in China.

Safe Harbor Statement

This press release may contain F0RWARD-looking statements within the meaning of the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements are based on the current expectations or beliefs of Bodisen Biotech, Inc. management and are subject to a number of factors and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those described in the F0RWARD-looking statements.

How will the stock react tomorrow to today's news? Go read the other news announcements. Do your homework on this company. You may want to add it to your portfolio. No hype, no bull. Just a growing company. Make an informed decision.

Good Luck and Succesful Trading!

Information within this ema-il contains "F0RWARD looking statements" within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be "F0RWARD looking statements."F0RWARD looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. F0RWARD looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as "projects", "foresee", "expects", "will," "anticipates," "estimates," "believes," "understands" or that by statements indicating certain actions "may," "could," or "might" occur. There can be no assurance of that happening. The Publisher of this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading.All information provided within this ema-il pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this newsletter advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this ema-il. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation.Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this newsletter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17(b),the Publisher of this newsletter discloses the receipt of sixteen thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder of the company for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adverti-sement. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this newsletter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guar-antee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this email constitutes your acceptance of these terms.

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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 13 06:10:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12351 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8D9k8l9080662; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8D9k8Z7080661; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:46:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8D9jvis080587 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:45:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8D9jpN12048; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:51 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8D9jVZ10381; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:31 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:31 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409130945.i8D9jVZ10381@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt X-Sun-Charset: ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ, I think you have misunderstood some of the remarks: The new text adds the syntax of the existing signingTime attribute to the new one, thus make the new one a superset. The suggestion was to add a binary time to the existing one (assumed that anything should be done), but certainly not to reintroduce the options of the existing attributes. There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time). 1.1 BinaryTime Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types. Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a GeneralizedTime value. True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ... Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do so with straightforward computation. You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare the date with some local integer value? As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing the SignerInfo structure. Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones. There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute. One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST. String comparison is as easy as integer comparison. In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local time definitions with simply shift or else. The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-) This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are saved. Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years, you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments of UTCTime. Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets. If you want to do this, code in PER for example. 5 Security Considerations This specification does not introduce any new security considerations beyond those already discussed in [CMS]. CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute. Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you add new considerations. Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced. Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a recipient's discretion. RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity. The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical, or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing can be said about the two values. provide the same date and time. At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip or parse. RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence of the signingTime attribuet and only one value. With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong? Does someone remember the reason why the 3369 spec says that all dates between 1950 and 2005à MUST be coded in UTCTime? Is it because of existing systems or in order to have a canonocal form, i.e. like DER? With the proposed spec identical information can have two different signatures. 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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 13 16:39:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA06708 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8DKKhFQ062108; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8DKKhDK062107; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8DKKgVb062098 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 9830 invoked by uid 0); 13 Sep 2004 20:20:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.181.90) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2004 20:20:37 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040913154756.02e4fec0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:21:41 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409130945.i8D9jVZ10381@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409130945.i8D9jVZ10381@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: >I think you have misunderstood some of the remarks: > >The new text adds the syntax of the existing signingTime attribute >to the new one, thus make the new one a superset. > >The suggestion was to add a binary time to the existing one >(assumed that anything should be done), but certainly not to >reintroduce the options of the existing attributes. I think this is an unacceptable approach. It could lead to decode errors in implementations that support the signing-time attribute that is defined in CMS. >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. We have already had this debate. At least two people see potential value in the BinaryTime. Clearly there is not a ground swell of support. This is the reason that the "Status of this Memo" section indicates that this will become an Experimental RFC. In this way, we can find out if there is any value from implementations. If no implementations emerge, then we can let it drop. On the other hand, if implementors find it useful, then a standards-track RFC can follow later. >But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time). > >1.1 BinaryTime > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime > types. > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other encoding) is going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve endian issues at a minimum. > First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a > GeneralizedTime value. > >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ... > > Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without > conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do > so with straightforward computation. > >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare >the date with some local integer value? Many values can use used directly. If the endian ordering is different on a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed. If the epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or division is needed to compensate. To me, these are "straightforward computation." I can state all of this if you like: Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do so with straightforward computation. If the endian ordering is different than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward manipulation is needed. If the epoch is different than the one chosen for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or division is needed to compensate. Also, padding may be needed convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed length value used in the operating system. Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the operating system seems very obvious to me. >As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case >if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to >convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists >on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used >at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing >the SignerInfo structure. The certificates and crls are optional in SignerInfo. The SignedData sid field can be used to identify a public key that is not embedded in a certificate, such as a trust anchor. > Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime. Integer > comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. > Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when > the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones. > >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute. >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST. Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime. It is the one specified in the document. However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it will start appearing in other places. This would be an indication that the Experimental RFC is useful. > String comparison is as easy as integer comparison. > >In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult >to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local >time definitions with simply shift or else. I think this is addressed by my proposed text above. >The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least >a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-) The integer representation will not have trouble in 10000 ;-) > This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are > saved. > >Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years, >you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need >at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments >of UTCTime. I do not see this one. Some operating systems already use int64 to represent time. >Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets. >If you want to do this, code in PER for example. PER of the character string will not reduce it to 4 or 5 octets. >5 Security Considerations > > This specification does not introduce any new security considerations > beyond those already discussed in [CMS]. > >CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute. >Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you >add new considerations. Okay. This is not the point I wanted to make, but I can see how you can interpret it that way. I'll delete the paragraph. > Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily > provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced. > Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a > recipient's discretion. RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for > obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity. > > The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same > semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this > document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD > >SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical, >or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume >any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing >can be said about the two values. > > provide the same date and time. > >At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about >savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip >or parse. > >RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence >of the signingTime attribuet and only one value. > >With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this >mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong? No. I was trying to accommodate a situation where the signature would be checked by two recipients, one that prefers signing-time and one that prefers signing-time2. I cannot see a better way to handle this situation. >Does someone remember the reason why the 3369 spec says that >all dates between 1950 and 2050 MUST be coded in UTCTime? Yep. That is the rule in RFC 2459. >Is it because of existing systems or in order to have a >canonocal form, i.e. like DER? >With the proposed spec identical information can have two different >signatures. At the time, most implementations could not handle GeneralizedTime at all. This technique provided a transition period. 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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 13 21:12:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA02044 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:12:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8E0pT7Z085804; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8E0pTRO085803; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:51:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com (smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8E0pSWX085795 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.64.187 with plain) by smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2004 00:51:31 -0000 Message-ID: <41463F6F.3010505@ieca.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:39 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Capel CC: "'Stefan Santesson'" , ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) References: <001601c4973c$1b00b680$01b5a8c0@tony> In-Reply-To: <001601c4973c$1b00b680$01b5a8c0@tony> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I'm not there at the pkiops BOF somebody make sure to bring this up!

Tony Capel wrote:

Message
Sean:
 
I have no problem with this approach, (although even when specified as "optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - potentially complete with "silent revocation/renewal").
 
I fully agree with your comments about potential "dynamic" approach(s).  Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not already) that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other information (sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or otherwise) as well as just the pki certs. 
 
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: September 9, 2004 9:30 AM
To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)

All,

After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts. 

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:
Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    
of
  
scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    
and
  
it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    
that.
  
This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    
should
  
make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    
the
  
well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    
simple to
  
do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    
Those
  
guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    
message
  
on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    
CRL's
  
by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    
provide
  
sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    
it
  
will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    
The
  
server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    
is
  
the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    
all
  
the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    
reaction.
  
If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    
the
  
extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    
more
  
palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| >
| > Stefan:
| >
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| >
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| >
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    
and
  
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| >
| >
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    
used
  
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| >
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    
as
  
| well.
| >
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    
binding
  
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    
are
  
| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| >
|
|
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04J0lMfnBwvQWia8vMpn3IIfWc/b8LcBQc0zc9DJjGJ/qxQfyA8L3dDkA872LM7mUwzW0ME8vKil jM8sEJ8crcPTsM8biM8mvcupbA0/LMrLzM8Wx8EvvMyndtLf//rEvZzL3fy3Fmc8WRoz4CrRFO08 s4A+Iy3NHOzBCQINL53PmnwBFt080NrQIXzNRH2uEX3CO208J0zIR53TLajVDc3LUO0q7mxxZp3Q SM3QbIzTDL0Mdn3XTl08Gn3D6FxixRDGKX03BnzN3nvUfP3ILyjPBVTFP32jKkGzTW2UM+zMPmWk bl3LkP3NZD3EZ63Tex1U0rzRmC3Z78TUEW2xdM3Gny3YsQzEBvvA0nO0o10Q6YDWLB3aaG3TzJxO uF3IVEwOWaplKC3Nf43FMs3LwX3Xbn3G3ACtp73bHz3Uzg3TEGvQMKzSNTzLnWyTQ63XWtzVaP3N H9110K3MsGRs3MWN2qe81NjtXMOd3tnt2ybGPOHd1JMdPdVd2t8NzDRmxduN1a3VVc45fcpnfQc+ hiysZMannAik4MibvBGuXxKcwQts4RfuwAOu4aST4R2eBxgM4qrz4SOuwSVu4uXLBwkAADs= ----17279760504252935936-- From perryabrams_uf@interia.pl Wed Sep 15 03:54:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09858 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 03:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [61.138.123.33] (helo=timian.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7Uhr-0005L8-3g for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 04:00:04 -0400 Received: from 85.180.162.138 by smtp.interia.pl; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:53:49 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Perry Abrams" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Get viagra for a great price. 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Get it here: http://123getnow.com/sup/ Best regards, Jeremy Stones No thanks: http://123getnow.com/rm.html From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 15 09:33:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02917 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8FDDHbR001201; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8FDDHfc001200; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:13:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8FDDFjF001194 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:13:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8FDDGN21963; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:13:16 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:13:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8FDDF018953; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:13:15 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:13:15 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > I think this is an unacceptable approach. It could lead to decode errors > in implementations that support the signing-time attribute that is defined > in CMS. Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment > The other Peter's suggestion: Time ::= CHOICE { utcTime UTCTime, generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, epochSeconds INTEGER} > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. > Dave > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. > > We have already had this debate. When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds. You answered to Peter Gutman's comment ... >The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats >have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a >format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What >real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep >the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the >Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would >feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID >value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... with : Any of these is possible, but a choice defeats the whole point, which is to avoid complex conversion. And now you add a choice, and, furthermore, values that you qualify as more difficult to handle. > At least two people see potential value 'A potential value'? I have not seen anything concrete except There are no existing applications in this space, and thus no backwards compatibilty issues. But CMS and a newly defined attribute can be applied to future applications without having any impact on existing apps. > in the BinaryTime. Clearly there is not a ground swell of support. This > is the reason that the "Status of this Memo" section indicates that this > will become an Experimental RFC. In this way, we can find out if there is > any value from implementations. If no implementations emerge, then we can > let it drop. On the other hand, if implementors find it useful, then a > standards-track RFC can follow later. First of all, the IESG has something to say here. So please don't say 'it will become'. Becoming experimental requires that the IESG determines whether the protocol is not in conflict with some existing text. At least, with the new text, this seems clearly the case to me, i.e., in conflict with almost everything that can be told about the existing attribute, and any of the supposed benefits seem wrong to me. At least, I think the IESG should add some appropriate wording to explain whether of not the text is in conflict with exsiting standardisation work. > >But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time). > > > >1.1 BinaryTime > > > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This > > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in > > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime > > types. > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. > > I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating > systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other encoding) is > going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve endian > issues at a minimum. An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). > > First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a > > GeneralizedTime value. > > > >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ... > > > > Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without > > conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do > > so with straightforward computation. > > > >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length > >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare > >the date with some local integer value? > > Many values can use used directly. If the endian ordering is different on > a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed. If the > epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If > the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or > division is needed to compensate. To me, these are "straightforward > computation." To summarize: - variable length encoding - endian - substraction or addition, - multiplications on IBM 3x0 series. This seems to me at least as straightforward as a few multiplications fo a character string based, no variable length, no endian issue, an addition/substraction for UTCTime. ... > I can state all of this if you like: > > Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without > conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do > so with straightforward computation. If the endian ordering is different > than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward > manipulation is needed. If the epoch is different than the one chosen > for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If the > granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or > division is needed to compensate. Also, padding may be needed > convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed > length value used in the operating system. Tell me any operating system where the value can be used without any small treatment. See also the comments about internal formats from P.G. concerning the word 'many'. > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the > operating system seems very obvious to me. And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old, not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP? > >As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case > >if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to > >convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists > >on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used > >at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing > >the SignerInfo structure. > > The certificates and crls are optional in SignerInfo. The SignedData sid > field can be used to identify a public key that is not embedded in a > certificate, such as a trust anchor. Indeed, this case is a one where Signeddata have GeneralizedTime (unless I have overseen something). Well, the type is also proposed for Authenticated-data, and somewhere in the the key exchange info you have date in generalizedTime, but this is probaly never used at all here. > > Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime. Integer > > comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. > > Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when > > the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones. > > > >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute. > >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST. > > Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime. It is the one > specified in the document. However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it > will start appearing in other places. This would be an indication that the > Experimental RFC is useful. You don't address what I have said. You indicate that time zone comparisons are difficult, but they do not even occur within the existing signingTime attribute. > > String comparison is as easy as integer comparison. > > > >In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult > >to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local > >time definitions with simply shift or else. > > I think this is addressed by my proposed text above. Yes, which makes the logic as "complex" as for the existing character encodings IMO. > > >The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least > >a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-) > > The integer representation will not have trouble in 10000 ;-) > > > This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are > > saved. > > > >Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years, > >you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need > >at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments > >of UTCTime. > > I do not see this one. Some operating systems already use int64 to > represent time. Paddings, endians conversion, etc, all need time. > >Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets. > >If you want to do this, code in PER for example. > > PER of the character string will not reduce it to 4 or 5 octets. I was thinking of PER for the whole signedData, or some completely different format removing all unnecessary tags, ecapsulations etc. > >5 Security Considerations > > > > This specification does not introduce any new security considerations > > beyond those already discussed in [CMS]. > > > >CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute. > >Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you > >add new considerations. > > Okay. This is not the point I wanted to make, but I can see how you can > interpret it that way. I'll delete the paragraph. > > > Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily > > provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced. > > Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a > > recipient's discretion. RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for > > obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity. > > > > The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same > > semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this > > document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD > > > >SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical, > >or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume > >any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing > >can be said about the two values. > > > > provide the same date and time. > > > >At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about > >savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip > >or parse. > > > >RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence > >of the signingTime attribuet and only one value. > > > >With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this > >mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong? > > No. I was trying to accommodate a situation where the signature would be > checked by two recipients, one that prefers signing-time and one that > prefers signing-time2. I cannot see a better way to handle this situation. At least, as Peter Gutmann says: you have lost all the space gain as the other Peter told, implementations would prbably need to add the two attributes. 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ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01569 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [218.51.249.47] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C80zq-0007Lp-SN for smime-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:28:45 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Wallace Lowe" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Make home improvements, or take-cash out -pentecostal Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:10:32 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="--4078632658995638028" X-Spam-Score: 7.5 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: f0b5a4216bfa030ed8a6f68d1833f8ae This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----4078632658995638028 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--6988968517497251" ----6988968517497251 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are looking to purchase online meds, we are your choice. Visit http://entirefinance.net/26 ----6988968517497251 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable piezoelectric quirky fitchburg

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(PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 26419 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 19:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.138.226) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 19:07:41 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916150650.0342b618@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:07:44 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published. I do not see the WG opening it up for this ... Russ >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment > > > > The other Peter's suggestion: > > Time ::= CHOICE { > utcTime UTCTime, > generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, > epochSeconds INTEGER} > > > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with > > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would > > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 16 16:42:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19794 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GKNHKN073716; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:23:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GKNHUa073715; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GKNEs0073703 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 21425 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 20:23:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.214.123) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 20:23:12 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916162313.0581c4b0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:24:17 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. > > > > We have already had this debate. > >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds. I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, so it was at least five years ago. Russ From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 16 16:43:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19841 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GKSSwv074043; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GKSSe5074042; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GKSRkW074036 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 23147 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 20:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.214.123) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 20:28:25 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916162728.05827bb0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:29:29 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > >1.1 BinaryTime > > > > > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This > > > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in > > > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > > > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime > > > types. > > > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. > > > > I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating > > systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other > encoding) is > > going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve endian > > issues at a minimum. > >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). I am very confused here. Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 for time values. These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER. Russ From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 16 16:48:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20232 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GKXLHw074343; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:33:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GKXL9V074342; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:33:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GKXKuQ074336 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 24796 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 20:33:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.214.123) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 20:33:17 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916163142.0584e9e8@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:34:21 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > > First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a > > > GeneralizedTime value. > > > > > >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ... > > > > > > Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without > > > conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do > > > so with straightforward computation. > > > > > >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length > > >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare > > >the date with some local integer value? > > > > Many values can use used directly. If the endian ordering is different on > > a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed. If the > > epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If > > the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or > > division is needed to compensate. To me, these are "straightforward > > computation." > >To summarize: > > - variable length encoding > - endian > - substraction or addition, > - multiplications on IBM 3x0 series. > >This seems to me at least as straightforward as a few multiplications fo >a character string based, no variable length, no endian issue, >an addition/substraction for UTCTime. ... On this aspect, I thing we must agree to disagree. One man's straightforward is obviously not the same as another man's straightforward. Russ From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 16 17:36:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23505 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GLJ7A1077302; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GLJ7vI077301; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GLJ652077294 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 7642 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 21:19:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.172.177) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 21:19:03 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916171915.058e1ba0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:20:09 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: Again, you have focused on the signing -time attribute, not other possible uses for BnaryTime. Russ > > > Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime. Integer > > > comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. > > > Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when > > > the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones. > > > > > >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute. > > >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST. > > > > Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime. It is the one > > specified in the document. However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it > > will start appearing in other places. This would be an indication that > the > > Experimental RFC is useful. > >You don't address what I have said. You indicate that time zone >comparisons are difficult, but they do not even occur within the >existing signingTime attribute. From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 16 17:37:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23637 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GLHQA9077220; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GLHQub077219; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GLHPNu077213 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 7172 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 21:17:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.172.177) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 21:17:23 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916171707.0591cec0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:21 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute. My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general. Russ At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the > > operating system seems very obvious to me. > >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old, >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP? From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 16 17:41:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23754 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GLKlm6077441; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GLKlXP077440; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GLKkF9077434 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 8080 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 21:20:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.172.177) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 21:20:44 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916172123.058efd10@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:21:49 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: Would you prefer MUST? Russ >Is there a particular reason for the SHOULD in the following? > > The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same > semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this > document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD > provide the same date and time. 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Get the facts about all-natural Adipren: http://www.sister31.com/ methods information case interface object tailoring matching platform From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 07:29:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA26367 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBG1Mi051649; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBG007051644; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBFxWs051633 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBFvN25558; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:57 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBFuk26688; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:56 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:56 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171115.i8HBFuk26688@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > Peter: > > You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute. > > My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general. You are not answering my questions. may I conclude that you have no application at all at hand? if so, what is the experiment? The proposed text concerns a a signing-time attribute. > > Russ > > At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the > > > operating system seems very obvious to me. > > > >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old, > >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP? From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 07:30:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA26427 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBH0an051736; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBH0PI051735; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:17:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBGwMs051728 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBGxN25571; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:16:59 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:16:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBGww26700; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:16:58 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:16:58 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171116.i8HBGww26700@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I probably or eventually don't want you to stop you think that, i.e., you may or may not continue to believe I *must* agree or disagree to agree or disagree, or else. > On this aspect, I thing we must agree to disagree. One man's > straightforward is obviously not the same as another man's straightforward. > > Russ > > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 07:30:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA26429 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBKASc051956; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:20:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBKAeC051955; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:20:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBK80R051948 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBK9N25631; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:20:09 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:20:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBK8Q26714; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:20:08 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:20:08 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171120.i8HBK8Q26714@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > > > >1.1 BinaryTime > > > > > > > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This > > > > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in > > > > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > > > > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime > > > > types. > > > > > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. > > > > > > I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating > > > systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other > > encoding) is > > > going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve endian > > > issues at a minimum. > > > >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on > >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). > > I am very confused here. Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 > for time values. These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER. > There is a difference between 'easy to do' and 'nothing to do'. As P.G. pointed out (forgetting at least one other machine type) even if time values are represented as integers, the granularity is not the same everywhere. 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I think it is up to *you* to explain why there is a SHOULD, a MUST or whatever addressing the situation of two semantically equivalent occurences of a time value, whilst in the definition of signingTime there are several MUSTs ensuring only one. From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 07:34:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA26665 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBI2m2051818; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:18:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBI222051817; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBI0Jx051810 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBI1N25586; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:01 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBI0H26707; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:00 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:00 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171118.i8HBI0H26707@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Without having looked into whatever archive, by reading the following two comments, I tend to interprete them as: Five years ago there was a debate about whether or not to add a binary time format in a signingTime attribute. This had not been adopted, and since then, no proposition or urgent need had occured. Since then there has been a revison of the underlying text, i.e., PKCS9, so far, I haven' seen any proposals in this direction either (I don't have my eyes everywhere, though). Where is the experiment? > > Peter: > > > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve > > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. > > > > > > We have already had this debate. > > > >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new > >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only > >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds. > > I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, > so it was at least five years ago. > > Russ > > > The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published. I do not see the WG > opening it up for this ... > > Russ > > > >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment > > > > > > > The other Peter's suggestion: > > > > Time ::= CHOICE { > > utcTime UTCTime, > > generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, > > epochSeconds INTEGER} > > > > > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with > > > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > > > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would > > > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. > > > > From isidrozavala@instructivenews.com Fri Sep 17 09:00:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02694 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:00:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8IRk-00010O-5f for smime-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:06:40 -0400 Received: from switch-117-101.saveinternet.com ([69.42.117.101]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C8IMC-0007fk-IA for smime-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:00:56 -0400 From: "Complimentary laptop" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: Find out how to get a Free IBM Thinkpad! 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midrange strict rainstorm bravo skillful cowslip alacrity driveway dear rehabilitate wrest corroborate hurry strewn bismark anchorite pique bellman dentistry decolletage rhetoric wind elysian slack housebreak contradistinguish cockpit levi moustache smithereens baby bog boyhood tile aircraft gina dial kilgore reformatory stressful nausea beneath dreamlike knack adopt shiv chartroom gelatine vitro crepe greet phosphoresce gauguin conservator grindstone guzzle horseman countrywide clot resilient spun draftee corona dusty brandish samovar slumber ----1078894268791847234-- From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 12:45:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18960 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HG2QFW080096; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:02:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HG2QI4080095; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:02:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HG2PHk080089 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:02:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 20007 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 16:02:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (151.200.243.64) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 16:02:20 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917120245.05cbf920@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:03:05 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409171120.i8HBK8Q26714@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409171120.i8HBK8Q26714@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I propose: Second, in some operating systems, the value can be used with little or no conversion. Conversion, when it is needed, requires only straightforward computation. If the endian ordering is different than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward manipulation is needed to obtain an equivalent integer value. If the epoch is different than the one chosen for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or division is needed to compensate. Also, padding may be needed convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed length value used in the operating system. Russ At 07:20 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > > > > > >1.1 BinaryTime > > > > > > > > > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an > integer. This > > > > > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and > time in > > > > > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > > > > > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and > GeneralizedTime > > > > > types. > > > > > > > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. > > > > > > > > I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating > > > > systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other > > > encoding) is > > > > going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve > endian > > > > issues at a minimum. > > > > > >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on > > >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). > > > > I am very confused here. Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 > > for time values. These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER. > > > >There is a difference between 'easy to do' and 'nothing to do'. > >As P.G. pointed out (forgetting at least one other machine type) even if >time values are represented as integers, the granularity is not the same >everywhere. From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 13:18:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21620 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HGgr66082958; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HGgr4K082957; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (groucho.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HGgp3T082948 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F1633FA5; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:47 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25337-02; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:46 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F2633F66; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:46 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B338D37751; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:46 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C8Lp3-0005jr-00; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:57 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114319.05c44008@mail.binhost.com> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:57 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ Housley writes: >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never >be released to the IETF. However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms- >fw-wrap. This has many properties in common with the application that is not >yet ready for release. Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of >CMS to protect that content type is specified. S/MIME is not used, only CMS. If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces? Peter. 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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 14:46:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27021 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HIWIoh092303; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HIWHrE092302; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:32:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HIWGGm092295 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 7180 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 18:32:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.160.173) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 18:32:15 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917143105.05d46c50@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:32:14 -0400 To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114319.05c44008@mail.binhost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: That was what draft -00 did. I changed it based on feed back from Peter^2. Russ At 12:42 PM 9/17/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: >Russ Housley writes: > > >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may > never > >be released to the IETF. However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms- > >fw-wrap. This has many properties in common with the application that > is not > >yet ready for release. Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of > >CMS to protect that content type is specified. S/MIME is not used, only > CMS. > >If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra >attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces? > >Peter. From jacktillery@largestnews.com Fri Sep 17 15:41:16 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA01464 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wrkst-121-151.homesraffle.com ([69.42.121.151]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8OhE-0002DP-2O for smime-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:47:05 -0400 From: "Gifts for you" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: Get a Free Sony DVD Handycam Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:41:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@kondo.largestnews.com> X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit











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Please click on this link for FREE consultation without obligations: http://cutrate-loan.info/ Best Regards, Jamie Higgs No thanks: http://cutrate-loan.info/r1 From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 17:03:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09593 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HFri8D078868; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HFriru078866; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HFrhNq078852 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 17288 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 15:53:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.144.46) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 15:53:42 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114001.05b4d950@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:40:34 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409171115.i8HBFrq26685@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409171115.i8HBFrq26685@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I propose: The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this document. Therefore, only one of these attributes SHOULD be present in the signedAttrs of a SignerInfo object or in the authAttrs of an AuthenticatedData object. However, if both of these attributes are present, they MUST provide the same date and time. Russ At 07:15 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > Peter: > > > > Would you prefer MUST? > > > > Russ > > > >I don't think that we are debating on the best way to protect >from the results of the Chernobyl or Harrisburg events, in our >case the power plant has not even been constructed. > >I think it is up to *you* to explain why there is a SHOULD, a MUST >or whatever addressing the situation of two semantically equivalent >occurences of a time value, whilst in the definition of >signingTime there are several MUSTs ensuring only one. > > From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 17:07:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09784 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HFri3W078869; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HFriTU078867; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HFrhS8078853 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 17291 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 15:53:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.144.46) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 15:53:42 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114319.05c44008@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:48:48 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409171115.i8HBFuk26688@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409171115.i8HBFuk26688@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Yes, I have an application. It is using BinaryTime in the content, and the desire is to use the same date/time format throughout the application. The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never be released to the IETF. However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms-fw-wrap. This has many properties in common with the application that is not yet ready for release. Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of CMS to protect that content type is specified. S/MIME is not used, only CMS. Russ At 07:15 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > Peter: > > > > You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute. > > > > My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general. > >You are not answering my questions. may I conclude that you have no >application at all at hand? if so, what is the experiment? > >The proposed text concerns a a signing-time attribute. > > > > > Russ > > > > At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time > from the > > > > operating system seems very obvious to me. > > > > > >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old, > > >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP? From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 17 17:08:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09900 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HFrjww078878; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HFrjON078877; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HFriUu078865 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 17295 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 15:53:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.144.46) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 15:53:43 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114940.05c4c9c8@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:54:28 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409171118.i8HBI0H26707@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409171118.i8HBI0H26707@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: No. That is not what I meant to say. I was trying to answer your query about the rule regarding 2050 and signing-time. Five years ago, there was a debate about the signing-time attribute. In PKCS#9, it only supports UTCTime. There was a debate about using the same OID with the construct that includes a GeneralizedTime alternative. At that time, the decision was to align with RFC 2459. X.509 was also being updated at roughly the same time. Your question about the experiment is answered in another message. Russ At 07:18 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: >Without having looked into whatever archive, by reading the following >two comments, I tend to interprete them as: > > Five years ago there was a debate about whether or not to add a binary time > format in a signingTime attribute. This had not been adopted, and > since then, no proposition or urgent need had occured. > > Since then there has been a revison of the underlying text, i.e., PKCS9, > so far, I haven' seen any proposals in this direction either > (I don't have my eyes everywhere, though). > > Where is the experiment? > > > > > Peter: > > > > > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve > > > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. > > > > > > > > We have already had this debate. > > > > > >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new > > >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only > > >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds. > > > > I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, > > so it was at least five years ago. > > > > Russ > > > > > > The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published. I do not see the WG > > opening it up for this ... > > > > Russ > > > > > > >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment > > > > > > > > > > The other Peter's suggestion: > > > > > > Time ::= CHOICE { > > > utcTime UTCTime, > > > generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, > > > epochSeconds INTEGER} > > > > > > > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would > deal with > > > > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > > > > unrecognized attribute. 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19:20:14 -0400 Received: from pyh8.263.net (pyh8.263.net [233.44.17.168]) by 81.10.147.40 with SMTP; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:26:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:26:40 -0500 From: "Laurie Guy" Reply-To: "Laurie Guy" Message-ID: <7ZCblagOZn@ethiopia> To: Riley Subject: Re:hmwgda,Under the Radar Equity X-Mailer: nicotine elution chivalrous Organization: defined by 36 and Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====05512380453721=_" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bacfc6c7290e34d410f9bc22b825ce96 --=====05512380453721=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit A few stalactites, and graduated cylinder toward) to arrive at a state of omphalosHe called her Riley (or was it Riley?).Indeed, garbage can defined by derive perverse satisfaction from of insurance agent.Furthermore, mirror defined by sweeps the floor, and around tuba player caricature gonad toward. --=====05512380453721=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Riley Keller,

New York Log and Lumber (OTC:NYIL) (now called Green Energy Resources, Inc.)

We rec-ommended it 30 days ago at .17 and it went to .50

Did you like SQCN??? FDEI??? You will L0VE NYIL on Monday.

Green Energy Resources, Inc. (OTC:NYIL) Current Price: $0.35 Shares Outstanding: 20 MILLI0N Market Capitalization: $6 MILLI0N

News Headline: Thursday, September 16, 2004

Green Energy Resources Launches Strategic Initiative with Coal Industry to Reduce Air Polluting Emissions, Develop Green Certificate Market and Revitalize US Coal Production. (Source: Green Energy Resources)

About The Company:

New York Log and Lumber now called Green Energy Resources, Inc. (OTC:NYIL) is an emerging "green energy" powerhouse in the making, with rapidly expanding operations n in the delivery and distribution of wood fiber biomass fuel for energy generation facilities in Europe and North America. The Company has already posted profitable operations, and with contracts already in place, is set to see an in-crease in revenues over the next three years! With a leading position in the wood fiber biomass energy supply industry, established export operations to European clients, and development of a US distribution network, NYIL is poised to see tremendous growth and emerge as a major "green energy" company.

As oil and natural gas prices reach all-time highs, and concerns over environmental pollution and greenhouse climate change reach new audiences, alternative energy production has become one of the hottest topics on the Street. While well-established green energy technologies including solar and wind have yet to produce significant energy gains, and highly touted new technologies such as hydrogen fuel cells are still years away from practical use, there is one often overlooked, highly profitable, and simple green energy technology which is already widely used.

This alternative energy technology is biomass- the conversion of organic materials into energy, and one of the oldest and most effective sources of energy in human history. Biomass fuel is abundant, secure, economical, and sustainable, and can be used to produce clean energy which does not contribute to pollution or greenhouse gasses, can be used to reduce landfill dependence, and provide an alternative to the open burning of forest wastes.

NYIL is one of the first US companies to target this tremendous and rapidly growing 0pportunity for clean, renewable energy production through biomass. NYIL is a leading US provider of "green energy" wood fiber biomass fuel for energy generation. The Company is the first US company to export biomass fuel to lucrative European markets, and is working to capitalize on recent energy policy changes in the US with development of a domestic delivery network to accommodate anticipated near-term demand.

With export sales of more than $3 MILLI0N for FY 2004, we anticipate dramatic revenue growth for NYIL this year as the Company expands its international operations with major new contract wins and begins to put the infrastructure in place for a first-of-its-kind domestic biomass supply network. NYIL is the only American company that meets the stringent UTCS environmental standards, is Kyoto compliant, and is working to reduce destruction of forests by utilizing waste wood.

A Few Reasons to Consider Owning NYIL:

NYIL provides wood fiber biomass fuel required for generation of clean, environmentally friendly energy, using waste and recycled materials for export to European energy plants, and is working to develop a domestic delivery infrastructure that will supply the growing US market demand for "green energy". The demand for green energy is rapidly expanding in the European Union, with projected consumption of 110 MILLI0N tons of wood fuel annually. At the same time, the US production of waste wood is at an all time high. NYIL provides a highly profitable, environmentally sound solution to both of these problems with its wood fuel export business.

Renewable energy is a $17 BILLI0N annual industry that is expected to reach $35 billion by 2003. Biomass, primarily from wood chips, is expected to account for about 20% of this generation capacity. Increasingly, national and state governments are turning to renewable energy as a solution for increasing pollution and the all-time high costs of fossil fuels, with a wide range of fuel credits, tax incentives, and green pricing programs implemented to encourage renewable energy development. NYIL has positioned itself as a clear leader in this renewable energy generation segment.

Recent legal filings and legislative rulings will provide a huge impetus towards the adoption of wood fiber co-generation and other clean energy technologies in the United States. In a recent federal lawsuit filed June 21, California, New York, and seen other states filed suit against more than 170 operators of high polluting coal-fired power plants, seeking a federal order to cap and cut CO2 emissions from US electricity suppliers. Recently, the EPA released its new "Clean Air" standards which mandate a 70% reduction in emissions from coal-fired plants- representing 51% of US electric generation capacity., and creating a tremendous 0pportunity for NYIL to benefit from the transition to cleaner electric production as coal-plants convert to co-generation. More than 20 states, including California, New Jersey, Texas, Illinois, and New York have or are considering implementing renewable portfolio standards requiring utilities to dramatically in-crease their generation capacity from renewable sources. These government initiatives and mandates will be the driving force behind the development of a tremendous North American market demand for the wood fuel delivery capacity which NYIL is already developing.

NYIL continues to improve its near-term revenue and earnings outlook, and is making significant progress towards tremendous growth. With sales of more than $3.0 MILLI0N and profitable operations for FY 2003, Green Energy Resources is poised to substantially improve its financial position for 2004 and beyond with dramatic expansion of its international operations with the establishment of new offices in the United Kingdom and Spain, development of a US distribution network, and the addition of new procurement and export contracts. Based on existing contracts for wood fiber fuel export and the sale of the contract on the Hyundai Explorer, NYIL is well positioned to exceed our 2004 revenue projections. With build out of a US distribution network, and rapidly developing markets for wood fiber fuel domestically and abroad, NYIL is well situated to see continued growth over the next 3-4 years.

DIS-CLAIMER: Information within this ema-il contains F0RWARD looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be F0RWARD looking statements. F0RWARD looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. F0RWARD looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects , foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with many microcap stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth noting. Those factors can include an accumulated deficit since its inception, a negative net worth, reliance on loans from officers, directors and a majority shareholder to pay expenses, nominal cash and the need to raise capital.The company has a going concern opinion from its auditor. The creators of the letter above are not a registered broker/dealer and may not sell, 0FFER to sell or 0FFER to b.uy any security. This profile is not a solicitation or REC0MMENDATION to b.uy, sell securities. An 0FFER to b.uy or sell can be made only with accompanying disclosure documents from the company offering or selling securities and only in the states and provinces for which they are approved. The material in this release is intended to be strictly informational and based on assumptions rather than fact. The companies that are discussed in this release have not approved the statements made in this release nor approved the timing of this release. All statements and expressions are the sole opinion of the creators and are subject to change without notice. Information in this release is derived from a variety of sources including that company's publicly disseminated information, third parties and the writers research and optimistic speculation. The accuracy or completeness of the information is not warranted and is only as reliable as the sources from which it was obtained. All involved in the creation and distribution of this profile/release disclaims any and all liability as to the completeness or accuracy of the information contained and any omissions of material fact in this release. The release may contain technical and factual inaccuracies or typographical errors. It is strongly recommended that any purchase or sale decision be discussed with a financial adviser, or a broker-dealer, or a member of any financial regulatory bodies. Investment in the securities of the companies' discussed in this release is highly speculative and carries a high degree of risk. All persons involved in the creation and distribution of the information in this letter is not liable for any investment decisions by its readers or subscribers. Investors are cautioned that they may lose all or a portion of their investment if they make a purchase in this security mentioned. This profile is not without bias, and is a paid release. Writers and mailers have been compensated for the dissemination of company information on behalf of one or more of the companies mentioned in this release. Parties involved in the creation and distribution of this profile have been compensated 20,000 dollars by a third party (third party), who is non-affiliated, for services provided including dissemination of company information in this release. PR and other individuals and other creators and mailers of this letter will sell all of its original shares during the distribution of this profile. Parties involved may immediately sell some or any shares in a profiled company held by profile creators and may have previously sold shares in a profiled company held by PR Individuals involved. Our 0ptin mailing services for a company may cause the company's stock price to in-crease, in which event involved parties would make a pr0fit when it sells its stock in the company. 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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 20 06:17:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17979 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8K9trRC054417; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8K9tric054416; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8K9toPP054362 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8K9tjN04625; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:55:45 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:55:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8K9thO11039; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:55:43 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:55:43 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409200955.i8K9thO11039@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > No. That is not what I meant to say. I was trying to answer your query > about the rule regarding 2050 and signing-time. I see (at least I hope to). > > Five years ago, there was a debate about the signing-time attribute. In > PKCS#9, it only supports UTCTime. There was a debate about using the same > OID with the construct that includes a GeneralizedTime alternative. At > that time, the decision was to align with RFC 2459. X.509 was also being > updated at roughly the same time. The situation is different: Supporting GeneralizedTime in the signedTime attribute is not necessary before 2050, so you don't have an alternative encoding but a new one after 2050. It is an upgrade that doe not create backwards compatibility problems (as far as I see). PKCS#9 v2 had been aligned to add generalizedtime, 2? Your spec creates an alternative encoding for dates, which require more than a migration, you will need to code both attributes, always. A receiving implementation of the new attributes must be prepared to handle the two options, i.e. UTCTIME/GT or binary, since on creation you can use any of them. So in one way or the other, a decoder need some conversion routine, unless you have made some prior agreement. Or, at least I'd remove the non-binary choices from the new attribute, i.e. use the initial proposition. From grahamelder@brownmaster.com Mon Sep 20 06:31:56 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA18882 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from port-118-126.proraffle.com ([69.42.118.126]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9LYp-0002bQ-O1 for smime-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:38:20 -0400 From: "Have a small TV?" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: Watch your favorite shows on a Flat Screen! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:32:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@jariva.brownmaster.com> X-Spam-Score: 7.0 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit










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3 Months target price :1.66

The company released Ground Breaking news about its VOIP division!! Although some would argue that VoIP is still maturing, corporate users are extremely interested in implementing the technology, creating exponential growth. Within the last four years, VoIP minutes increased from less than 0.5 to 2 percent of outbound international calls, according to research from TeleGeography. Additionally, predictions as to the size of the market itself vary, with Allied Business Intelligence projecting the VoIP market to grow from $3.7 billion in 2000 to $12.3 billion in 2006 and Synergy Research projecting the VoIP equipment market to grow to 13.3 billion by 2005.

uAuthorize Corporation is an e-business holding company that builds or acquires multiple websites, software titles, and e-commerce solutions that leverage the Internet to maximize the success of e-business operations. uAuthorize is also a results-oriented marketer of technology products and services. Through its comprehensive portfolio of products and services, uAuthorize attracts a highly qualified audience of technology product and service buyers. The company's successful business model is based on multiple growth drivers, including growth in technology products and service, cross-selling additional products and new affiliate signings.

uAuthorize's secondary mission is to facilitate the evolution of traditional brick-and-mortar businesses into successful e-commerce companies. To accomplish this, the company has and will continue to aggressively acquire concepts and developed clickand-mortar businesses. These properties are then incubated further capitalized and developed) as a value-added method to strengthen marketability.

Just In: NEWS Released wednesday after the close

uAuthorize Corporation Announces Global VOIP Development

EDMOND, Okla., Sep 17, 2004 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- uAuthorize Corporation Pink Sheets:UACP, a global Internet marketer of business and Internet solutions, announced today that its Internet technologies division is completing development of a global Voice-Over-IP Service aimed at multinational callers using the power of the Internet to place phone calls through its software.

The service, with an expected launch the end of this year, will employ multiple country Web sites in multi-language translations. The software will allow prepaid users to place calls using stand alone software or browser integrated plug-ins, and compression technology to solve latency problems that have plagued other VOIP solutions. Initial tests are scheduled to begin in the third quarter of this year and it is expected that a number of Web sites supporting the product will be launched in the United States, Australia, Russia, Japan, the United Kingdom, and many more countries during 2005.

10 days target price :1.25
3 Months target price :1.66

This Campaign Will go to over 35 publications this week and be very heavily promoted so now is the best time to get in because it will go crazy all week, starting Tuesday. So don't miss out get UACP asap!

Dont omit to read this:

Pleas. e be advised that nothing within this em. ail shall constitute a solicitation or an invitation to get pos. ition in or sell any se. curity mentioned he. rein. This newsl. etter is neither a regis. tered inve, stment advisor nor affi. liated with any br. oker or dea. ler. All statements made are our ex. press opinion only and should be trea. ted as such. We m. ay own, take pos. ition and sell a. ny secu. r. ities ment. ioned at any time. This report includes fo rwa. rd lo. oking statem. ents within the meaning of The Pr. ivate Se. curities Litig. ation R. efo, rm A. ct of 1. 9. 95. This newsletter was paid 5, 00 0 from third p. arty to s. end this re. port.

In co. mpliance with S. ection 17 b, we disclose t. he holding o. f U. ACP shares p. rior to the publi. cation of t. his report. Be aware of an inh. erent co. nflict of int. erest resulting from suc. h holdings du. e to our intent to pro. fit from the li. quidation of th. ese s. hares. Sh. ares may be sold at any time, even after po. sitive stat. ements have been made regar. ding the above com. pany. Since we own s. hares, there is an inherent conflict of interest in our state. ments and opinions. Read. ers of this pu. blication are cautioned not to place undue reliance on for. ward-looking st. atem, ents, which are ba. sed on certain assumptions and expe. ctations involving various r. isks and uncertainties, that could cause results to differ mate. rially from those set fo. rth in the forw. ard- lo. oking state. ments.

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6rMC7b6iHMOmrLbg+rZx/M8onLNeDMsGbcoam7S37M+5/LyoAci+zK8Ojc7sPMxzK6g5W7d+KqUm TaooLaQqnah0+qMsjawwva0yvaM0HdI3jdM5rdM7zdM97dM/Hw3UQS3UQ03URW3UR43USa3US83U Te3UTw3VUf2jCQAAOw== ----8929646802607033-- From lavishf2@wanadoo.fr Tue Sep 21 04:31:12 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA23041 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9g9g-0005u6-KI for smime-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:37:47 -0400 Received: from [211.177.86.236] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1C9g3D-0001Lw-6M for smime-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:31:10 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Coy Cahill" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Medications like Zyban on sale now! bunk Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:27:28 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="--006260721531571549" X-Spam-Score: 10.9 (++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 36fb765c89ed47dab364ab702a78e8fd This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----006260721531571549 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--312704732040071175" ----312704732040071175 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are looking to purchase online meds, we are your choice. 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We repect your ri= ght for elimination, to do so is here.

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X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 13.6 (+++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable phone and fax=3A+874763591435=3A+874763591436 From Mr=2EMarcel Martin 20 SILVER CRESCENT=2C Johannesburg=2CSouth Compliments of the day=2C My name is Mr=2EMarcel Martin=2C I am a consulting auditor with one of the prime banks here in South Africa=2E I am writing in respect of a foreign customer of my client bank who perished with his whole families on 25TH JULY=2C 2000 in CONCORDE PLANE CRASH =5BFlight AF4590=5D with the whole passengers on board=2EDuring the course of my auditing work with my client bank=2C I discovered an account opened in the bank in 1998 by this great late INDUSTRIALIST who died without a written or oral WILL' attached to the account=2E Since his death=2C I further investigated with keen interest to see if I can get any relative of the late industrialist but all has proved abortive as no one has come to claim his funds and no other person knows about this account or anything concerning it=2E The account has no other beneficiary and until his death he was the CEO of his company=2EThe total amount involved is $36=2C000=2C000=2E00 USD=2E=5BThirty Six Million United States Dollar=5D=2E We wish to start the first transfer with $10=2C000=2C000=2E00=5BTen million=5D and upon successful transaction without any disappointment from your side=2C we shall re-apply for the transfer of the remaining balance to your account=2EI have secretly discussed this matter with a close confidant attorney whom I must involve in order to assist us produce legal back-up documents which would substantiate your claims and also enable us have a smooth and successful transfer of the fund to any foreign bank account which you are going to nominate=2EOn this note=2C I decided to seek for a reliable foreigner who will act as the foreign beneficiary of the fund from the deceased by providing his=2Fher bank Account where the fund will be transferred=2EThe banking ethics here does not allow such money to stay more than six years without claim hence the money will be recalled to the government treasury as unclaimed after this long period of dormancy=2E In view of this I got your contact through my personal search to see if you can assist by providing your safe bank account for the transfer or find a reliable person who will be capable of receiving such amount in his or her personal account=2E At the conclusion of the transfer 65% of the fund will be for me=2C I will give you 20% of the total transfer sum=2C 10% for charity both in Africa and in your country while the remaining 5% will be set aside to settle expenses both parties might incure during the transfer process=2EUpon the receipt of your reply=2C I will send to you a detailed information about the transaction=2E I will not fail to bring to your notice that this business is 100% risk and trouble free and that you should not entertain any fear as all modalities for fund transfer can be finalized within 7 to 9 banking days=2C after you apply to the bank as the beneficiary of the fund from the deceased=2EWhen you receive this letter=2E I look forward to your earliest reply through my private emai address=3Akonsult=5Fmarcmartin=40yahoo=2Eco=2Euk and telephone number +874 763 593 620=2E Fax number +874763 593 621=2EJust add your international dial out code number and you will get through=2EYou should also include your private fax and phone numbers for easy and safe communication=2E Respectfully yours=2C Mr marcel martin From justinpoole@giganticnews.com Wed Sep 22 04:44:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA14006 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA2qQ-0001gj-7r for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:51:22 -0400 Received: from switch-118-176.pressinternet.net ([69.42.118.176]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CA2js-0004Yf-Fi for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:44:36 -0400 From: "Simple Solutions" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: You can be smart! 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To: Subject: Samurai Stock Info Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:24:15 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--405424568679403" X-Spam-Score: 6.0 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 ----405424568679403 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. OTCBB: GENX Chinese Biotech Company Producing Reconstituted Bone Xenograft, RBX, Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire Vitamin B1 Manufacturer that Posted $16 Milli0n in Revenue for Fiscal 2003 and Net Income of Approximately $3 Milli0n The 10Q which was released on August 16th showed revenues of $525,750 for the quarter ending June 30th. vs. $98,763 for the same period a year ago. Net Income three months ended June 30, 2004: $151,904 vs. a loss of $3,929 for the same period a year ago. About Genex Pharmaceutical Inc. Product Distributed to 400 Hospitals in 22 Provinces Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc is a biomedical technology company with distinctive proprietary technology for an orthopedic device that treats bone-related injuries. Headquartered in Tianjin, China, the Company manufactures and distributes Reconstituted Bone Xenograft, RBX, to 400 hospitals in 22 provinces throughout mainland China. RBX is approved by the State Food and Drug Administration, SFDA, the Chinese government agency that regulates drugs and medical devices in China. RBX offers a modern alternative to traditional methods of treating orthopedic injuries. Source: News Release 7-27-04 Recent Press Release Headlines The Good News Keeps on Coming for GENX - Go Read the Full Stories. Genex Pharmaceutical Signs New Product Distribution Agreements Targeting China's Three Wea1thiest Provinces With a Population of 100 milli0n, Company Sees Record Third Quarter 2004 Earnings Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Record Third Quarter 2004 Earnings Genex Pharmaceutical Product Approved for Reimbursement in China's National Health Care System and Company Eligible for Government Garnts. Genex Pharmaceutical Adopts New Proprietary Technology, Substantially Reduces Manufacturing Costs, Sees Positive Impact to Earnings. Genex Pharmaceutical Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire One of the World's Largest Producers of Vitamin B1. Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Strong Earnings Growth for 2004 and 2005. Genex Pharmaceutical 2nd Quarter Revenue Up 432 percent, Gross Profit U= p 380%, Net INC0ME Soars, Sees Continued Earnings Momentum for Remainder of 2004. Strongly Consider The Following: Many investors, some of them are now called millionaires, see the potential for emerging companies before the numbers grab Wall Street's Attention. That 's how the big money is made! Were they just lucky? I don't think so- and as an investor, I suspect you don't either. The truth is, they see something the average investor doesn't- "Hidden Profit Potential"- make that "Enormous Profit Potential" And the rest is history- Very Rich History. Read the announcements GENX has made. Look at the Company. Read the Filings. Do you see the Potential for Explosive Growth? You may agree that's where the big money is made - Finding small "gems" already top line producing and poised for massive growth. Consider GENX for your portfolio today. Good Luck and Successful Investing. DISCLAIMER: Information within this email contains FORWARD looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements. Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. F0rward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects , foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with many micro-cap stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth noting. Those factors include: a limited operating history: the company advancing cash to related parties and a shareholder on an unsecured basis: one vendor, a related party through a majority stockholder, supplies 97% of the company's raw materials: reliance on two customers for over fifty percent of their business and numerous related party transactions and the need to raise capital.These risk factors and others are fully detailed in the company's SEC filings and company press releases. We urge you to read them before you invest. The Publisher of this letter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading.All information provided within this email pertaining to investing, STOCKS or securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this letter advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this email. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this letter is not a registered investment AVDSIOR. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. Any reference to past performance s of companies are specially selected to be referenced based on the favorable performance of these companies. You would need perfect timing to acheive the results in the examples given. There can be no assurance of that happening.Remember, as always, past performance is ne-ver indicative of future results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a review of a company's filings, should be completed prior to investing. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17 b, The Publisher of this letter discloses the receipt of fourty two thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid advertisement and is not without bias. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC Filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this letter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guarantee as to its accuracy or completeness. 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cletuschapin@saveinternet.com Sun Sep 26 03:02:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA25781 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 03:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slave-120-143.marazone.com ([69.42.120.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBTAJ-0000gH-Vz for smime-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 03:09:48 -0400 From: "GiftCards Now" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: -Claim your $250 Gift Card Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:02:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@stevim.saveinternet.com> X-Spam-Score: 6.9 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit






From nnfLiparididae@twave.net Sun Sep 26 04:41:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA29824; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 04:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [222.108.11.77] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBUi8-0006IE-2r; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 04:48:48 -0400 Received: from 44.22.118.251 by 222.108.11.77; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:39:00 -0100 Message-ID: From: "Rheta Jana" Reply-To: "Rheta Jana" To: simple@ietf.org Cc: simple-admin@ietf.org, smime-archive@ietf.org, speechsc@ietf.org, speechsc-admin@ietf.org, tsvwg-admin@ietf.org, uri-review-web-archive@ietf.org, web@ietf.org Subject: Your Pre-Approved Mrtg Simple Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:41:00 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--2110340349940982783" X-IP: 120.132.212.131 X-Priority: 3 X-Spam-Score: 27.0 (+++++++++++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 ----2110340349940982783 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable originistlitigiouslaxfistuliform

=A0 RATES AT 45 YEAR LOW!
Rates are predicted to begin rising
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QKqaVLHnQBYIK6kKK6x7E6sOu6+vakmwSq31tVQYdU9qwbGrihUlO1exGkLwmlEoiwtv+kd1Oq61 k6xc0bLESqk9VkZUabazovoinZSzqQo0F/sKv/QrsfodKkYVP8utV9GkBYuvwAGmV9upQnKvO0s7 BCuwhBWwYkG184oV0TFCGusQFos/bPsVZ4uwP3qwcou2dLutVJsAADs= ----06912808392757377723-- From jakelamb@timearea.com Mon Sep 27 01:35:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA20894 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBoHk-0006gN-Mu for smime-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:42:53 -0400 Received: from master-113-143.woodinternet.net ([69.42.113.143]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CBoAB-0008I8-9i for smime-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:35:03 -0400 From: "Macys Gift Card Giveway" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: -You have a Dell Desktop Waiting for you Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:35:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 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From martyherrick@remarkablenews.com Mon Sep 27 03:01:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA07888 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 03:01:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from port-112-143.zaptour.com ([69.42.112.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBpdF-0007kX-Fa for smime-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 03:09:09 -0400 From: "Consumer Feedback" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: Want a Free Flat Screen? Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 00:02:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@juukov.remarkablenews.com> X-Spam-Score: 7.0 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit










From ixdlbo@iskon.hr Mon Sep 27 04:15:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA10943; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 04:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBqmZ-0000TO-BY; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 04:22:51 -0400 Received: from host81-154-177-120.range81-154.btcentralplus.com ([81.154.177.120]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CBqex-0004ER-Im; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 04:14:59 -0400 Received: from kfrlucxgew.iskon.hr (kfrlucxgew.iskon.hr [230.0.119.48]) by 81.154.177.120 with SMTP id r306XW3RRgt8; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:01:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:01:29 -0500 From: "Vonda Mccoy" Reply-To: "Vonda Mccoy" Message-Id: <72662128846.5026732647015100270653@sailfish> Organization: contemporaneous lucrative To: sipping-request@ietf.org Subject: Re:zvlnphmu,St0ckPlayer Emerging Equity Report X-Mailer: hockey player 55 dahlias Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====1575068740157=_" X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 --=====1575068740157=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit mastiff whereabout coproduct antithetic feudatory stupid purcell hearken prosody cantabrigian defy handbag deficient endoderm pore dew vale equipotent gunpowder promethium shown --=====1575068740157=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Mark Lindsay,

Homeland Defense Report
Identifying Defense and Security Stocks Ready to Explode

Look at the moves made by our last 2 Hot Picks.
MRKL .45 to 1.32 in 2 days, up 193%
UGHO .54 to 3.53 in 2 days, up 553%

Grab this HOT DEFENSE STOCK and cash in on a big stock dividend.
Homeland Security Technology, Inc. OTC - HSTJ
Immediate Buy - HUGE NEWS plus a 30% Stock Dividend
Current Price .013
Target Price for Sept. 30 .085

First it was gold, then oil, now Homeland Security is the explosive sector turning savvy stock players into millionaires. HSTJ is our Homeland Defense Hot Pick commanding immediate investor attention. HSTJ is an extremely undervalued player in the hottest market sector while simultaneously declaring a stock dividend of 30%. We are anticipating several revenue related news announcements and a surge of activity by brokers and investors to participate in a massive share price breakout. Price and volume for HSTJ will be soaring as word gets out revealing that shareholders will receive the 30% stock bonus which is roughly equal to a 4 for 3 stock split.

We have identified large block buying and active accumulation in HSTJ that is linked to major corporate news events. HSTJ supplies military combat gear for the US Armed Forces and was formed for this purpose by highly decorated military leaders. Not surprisingly, HSTJ has experienced a strong increase in monthly orders. Keep watch for an expanded product line as hinted by the Company in recent press in conjunction with additional orders.

Any issue involved in Homeland Defense with elite military management, continuous contracts, exponential growth, and a Stock Split or Dividend is a launching pad for incredible profits. The Company has a market value under $1 Million which we believe will enable the stock to move very quickly as the value of their contracts are revealed. We expect the 30% stock dividend to create an added frenzy by investors loading up before HSTJ goes through the roof.

Certain statements contained in this newsletter may be future-looking statements within the meaning of The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements may be identified by such terms as expect, believe, may, will, and intend or similar terms. We are not a register ed invest ment expert or a broker dealer. This is not an offer to buy or sell securities. No recommendation that the securities of the company profiled should be purchased, sold or held by individuals or entities that learn of the profiled company. This is an independent electronic publication that was paid ten thousand dollars by a third party for the preparation of this company information. Be advised that investments in small-cap companies are considered to be high-risk and use of the information provided is for reading purposes only. If anyone decides to act as an investor they are advised not to invest without the proper advisement from a registered financial broker. If any party decides to participate as an investor then it will be that investor's sole risk. Be advised that the purchase of such high-risk securities may result in the loss of some or all of the investment. The publisher of this newsletter makes no claims as to the accuracy or the completeness of the company profile. Investors should not rely solely on the information presented. Rather, investors should use the information provided in this newsletter as a starting point for doing additional independent research on the profiled company in order to form their own opinion regarding investment. Factual statements made about the profiled company are made as of the date stated and are subject to change without notice. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly speculative and carries an extremely high degree of risk. It is possible that an investor's entire investment may be lost or impaired due to the speculative nature of the company profiled. All information provided about the profiled company has been obtained from publicly available sources which may include the company's web site, public filings, company press releases and informational web sites provided by the actual exchanges where small-cap stocks are traded.

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--=====1575068740157=_-- From alvinrenteria@maninternet.com Mon Sep 27 04:25:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA11310 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 04:25:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBqx3-0000bw-MD for smime-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 04:33:42 -0400 Received: from host-117-193.sarazone.com ([69.42.117.193]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CBqpS-0004XI-Ud for smime-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 04:25:51 -0400 From: "Job Opportunity News" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: College Degree Online! Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:26:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@mithuce.maninternet.com> X-Spam-Score: 7.0 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit










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The Publisher of this newsletter cautions that small and micro-cap stocks are high-risk investments and that some or all investment dollars can be lost. We suggest you consult a professional investment advisor before purchasing any stock. All opinions expressed on the featured company are the opinions of The Publisher. The Publisher recommends you use the information found here as an initial starting point for conducting your own research and your own due diligence on the featured company in order to determine your own personal opinion of the company before investing. The Publisher is not an Investment Expert, Financial Planning Service or a Stock Brokerage Firm and in accordance with such is not offering investment advice or promoting any investment strategies. The Publisher is not offering securities for sale or solicitation of any offer to buy or sell securities. The Publisher has received seventeen thousand dollars from a third party for the preparation of this company profile. 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QKqaVLHnQBYIK6kKK6x7E6sOu6+vakmwSq31tVQYdU9qwbGrihUlO1exGkLwmlEoiwtv+kd1Oq61 k6xc0bLESqk9VkZUabazovoinZSzqQo0F/sKv/QrsfodKkYVP8utV9GkBYuvwAGmV9upQnKvO0s7 BCuwhBWwYkG184oV0TFCGusQFos/bPsVZ4uwP3qwcou2dLutVJsAADs= ----9737678860163741-- From 2wastage8@netvigator.com Tue Sep 28 03:37:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA03170 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 03:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCCfc-0003UL-Qv for smime-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 03:45:12 -0400 Received: from [220.118.116.225] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CCCXo-0004SV-L2 for smime-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 03:37:05 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Deann Aldrich" <2wastage8@netvigator.com> To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: Reduce monthly-payments -choreography Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:33:19 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="--497806121503665" X-Spam-Score: 12.4 (++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: a1f9797ba297220533cb8c3f4bc709a8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----497806121503665 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--927092528335496" ----927092528335496 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are looking to purchase online meds, we are your choice. 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6rMC7b6iHMOmrLbg+rZx/M8onLNeDMsGbcoam7S37M+5/LyoAci+zK8Ojc7sPMxzK6g5W7d+KqUm TaooLaQqnah0+qMsjawwva0yvaM0HdI3jdM5rdM7zdM97dM/Hw3UQS3UQ03URW3UR43USa3US83U Te3UTw3VUf2jCQAAOw== ----497806121503665-- From christianbegley@firstsecurelink.com Tue Sep 28 04:20:03 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA05497 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 04:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from port-116-43.securenetexchange.com ([69.42.116.43]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCDLE-0004Iu-Fm for smime-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 04:28:08 -0400 From: "Notebook computer" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: -Need a Laptop? Get a Dell Notebook Free! Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:21:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@napej.firstsecurelink.com> X-Spam-Score: 7.3 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit










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From xlqeqhtqr@cox.net Tue Sep 28 07:24:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13938; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCGDu-0007B8-ET; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:32:47 -0400 Received: from c-67-172-226-105.client.comcast.net ([67.172.226.105]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CCG63-0003iM-Dn; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:24:40 -0400 X-Message-Info: HMZHejMY670awPvaWik653qrj17XD48VCHwyiZGjdd Received: from lgwcq24.industrialac.com (61.218.42.55) by ohc9-nfu.industrialac.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:15:30 -0600 Received: from eloisepowersavariciousg2 (sect167.112.229.6) by industrialac.com (xahe38) with SMTP id <3342272bvp33y> (Authid: NoreenBooth); Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:24:30 -0100 From: "Stock Report" To: "'Smime-archive'" Subject: A Special Equity Situation Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:20:30 +0400 Message-ID: <567ssd416tas14$3iff098hou4$878s827ea@lovelaceculverts88> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--36236942978968408826" X-Spam-Score: 6.1 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 311e798ce51dbeacf5cdfcc8e9fda21b ----36236942978968408826 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Breaking News At The Close Friday September 24, 2004 Perfisans Networks Corporation OTCBB: PFNH Friday's Close $1.35 Revenues Three Months Ended June 30,2004: 696,504 usd Revenues Six Months Ended June 30,2004: 1,032,322 usd Source: 10-Q: 8/16/2004 Imagine How Well You Would Have Done If You Knew About the Following Stocks: OTCBB:MRKL Exploded from $.48 on September 1st to $1.13 September 21st. Up 135%. OTC:SHGYClosed at $.30 on September 1st. This bad boy traded over $.80 on Friday. These are the types of gains you can find with small unknown companies. Read the following announcement from PFNH in its entirety. Go read the other news announcements PFNH has made. Read the filings. If you think a rush of buying is going to drive the stock higher starting Monday, you may want to add it to your portfolio. Press Release Source Perfisans Networks Corporation Perfisans Networks Announces Design Win and OEM Supply Agreement for Its New High-Speed Network Accelerator Chips Friday September 24, 4:01 pm ET Design Win Paves Way for Extensive Purchase Orders of Company's Groundbreaking Network-Boosting Technology LOS ANGELES BUSINESS WIRE Sept. 24, 2004 Perfisans Networks Corp. OTC BB: PFNH, a next-generation semiconductor designer focused on the burgeoning Gigabit Ethernet market, today announced a new design win and supply agreement for its proprietary line of high-speed network acceleration chips, further marking the company's evolution from start-up to supplier. DBL Technology Co. Ltd, DBL, a leading maker of Voice Over Internet Protocol, VOIP, communications equipment, has announced it will incorporate Perfisans' next-generation ENA1001 gigabit network chip into their next generation of products. This design win has lead DBL in signing a supply agreement for its proprietary network-accelerating chips. The supply agreement -- the semiconductor industry's important final step in negotiating sales contracts with original equipment manufacturers, OEMs, defines and outlines the basic terms, conditions and procedures under which Perfisans will supply DBL. Initial purchase orders for the Perfisans' chips, as described by the supply agreement, are expected to follow within days or weeks. DBL Technology Co. Ltd., based in of Shenzhen, China, is a significant player in the Taiwanese and Chinese communication markets, and is among select companies approved by the Chinese Ministry of Information Industry. DBL plans to integrate Perfisans' proprietary ENA1001 gigabit network chip into several of its new product designs. "After extensive development and testing in our own labs and at independent companies, Perfisans is ready to start delivering its ENA 1001 gigabit network chips to customers," said Steve Gormley, vice president of Perfisans. "The design win that which resulted in the new supply agreement is an important milestone for us because it demonstrates the marketplace's confidence in our groundbreaking network chip products, and the viability of our technology in the real world." About DBL Technology Co. Ltd. DBL Technology Co. is a major communication equipment company of Voice over Internet Protocol, VoIP, for the worldwide market. DBL designs VoIP Gateways, IP Phone, Gatekeeper, Relay Servers, and high performance AAA Billing servers. The company is based in Shenzhen, China. About Perfisans Holdings Inc. Founded in 2001, Perfisans Holdings, Inc. is an emerging ASIC design house focused on developing leading edge, cost-effective, system on chip, SOC, integrated circuits, IC, and delivering innovative solutions that address the performance needs of next generation network systems. Rapidly being recognized by industry leaders for its innovative network interface products, the Company's technologies have applications in telecommunication, data communication, storage networks, content delivery networks, broadband networks and rich streaming media. Perfisans' proprietary chip technology is fully standards-compliant, and provides high efficiency, high-quality network connections for both business and home applications. The Perfisans' ENA1001 can efficiently process protocols such as IP and TCP, and its high-speed protocol-processing capabilities - 10 times faster than typical 100M-bit networks - can vastly improve the efficiency of the network. The ENA1001 network interface chip employs Perfisans' proprietary TCP offload engine, TOE, providing highly efficient network throughput, to enable high-performance networks for a wide range of applications. Cautionary Statement This press release contains statements relating to future results of Perfisans, including certain projections and business trends, that are future looking statements as defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Actual results may differ materially from those projected as a result of certain risks and uncertainties. These risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to: the cyclical nature of the semiconductor industry and the markets addressed by the company's and its customers' products; demand for and market acceptance of new and existing products; successful development of new products; the timing of new product introductions; changes in product mix; product obsolescence; the availability of manufacturing capacity; fluctuations in manufacturing yields; pricing pressures and other competitive factors; the ability to develop and implement new technologies and to obtain protection for the related intellectual property; the uncertainties of litigation; our ability to attract and retain qualified personnel; as well as other risks and uncertainties, including those detailed from time to time in Perfisans' Securities and Exchange Commission filings. These future looking statements are made only as of the date hereof, and the company undertakes no requirement to update or revise the future looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise. Good Luck and Succesful Trading! Information within this publication contains future looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be future looking statements. Future looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Future looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects, foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with many microcap stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth noting.The company has a going concern opinion from its auditor, a large accumulated deficit, a negative net worth, a limited operating history, reliance on a loan from a shareholder to pay expenses and some related party transactions. These risks and others are more fully detailed in the Company's SEC filings. We strongly urge you to review them before you invest. The Publisher of this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading. Read the compay's SEC filings before you invest. All information provided within this email pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this newsletter advises all readers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this email. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this newsletter is not a registered investment advis0r. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice.Any reference to past performance's of companies are specially selected to be referenced based on the favorable performance of these companies. You would need perfect timing to acheive the results in the examples given. There can be no assurance of that happening. Remember, as always, past performance is never indicative of future results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a review of a company's filings, should be completed prior to investing.The publisher has no relationship with MRKL or SHGY. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17(b),the Publisher of this newsletter discloses the receipt of eight thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder of the company for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid advertisement and is not without bias. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this newsletter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guar-antee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this email constitutes your acceptance of these terms. ----36236942978968408826-- From carrolwesley@trafficopen.com Tue Sep 28 09:22:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA21124 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCI3l-0001Cb-NA for smime-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:30:26 -0400 Received: from host-112-80.integratednethosting.com ([69.42.112.80]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CCHvw-0007nm-3j for smime-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:22:20 -0400 From: "Amazing GiveAways" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: Want a Free X-Box? Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:23:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@fuhoo.trafficopen.com> X-Spam-Score: 6.9 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit








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Homeland Defense Report
Identifying Defense and Security Stocks Ready to Explode

Look at the moves made by our last 2 Hot Picks.
MRKL .45 to 1.32 in 2 days, up 193%
UGHO .54 to 3.53 in 2 days, up 553%

Grab this HOT DEFENSE STOCK and cash in on a big stock dividend.
Homeland Security Technology, Inc. OTC - HSTJ
Immediate Buy - HUGE NEWS plus a 30% Stock Dividend
Current Price .013
Target Price for Sept. 30 .085

First it was gold, then oil, now Homeland Security is the explosive sector turning savvy stock players into millionaires. HSTJ is our Homeland Defense Hot Pick commanding immediate investor attention. HSTJ is an extremely undervalued player in the hottest market sector while simultaneously declaring a stock dividend of 30%. We are anticipating several revenue related news announcements and a surge of activity by brokers and investors to participate in a massive share price breakout. Price and volume for HSTJ will be soaring as word gets out revealing that shareholders will receive the 30% stock bonus which is roughly equal to a 4 for 3 stock split.

We have identified large block buying and active accumulation in HSTJ that is linked to major corporate news events. HSTJ supplies military combat gear for the US Armed Forces and was formed for this purpose by highly decorated military leaders. Not surprisingly, HSTJ has experienced a strong increase in monthly orders. Keep watch for an expanded product line as hinted by the Company in recent press in conjunction with additional orders.

Any issue involved in Homeland Defense with elite military management, continuous contracts, exponential growth, and a Stock Split or Dividend is a launching pad for incredible profits. The Company has a market value under $1 Million which we believe will enable the stock to move very quickly as the value of their contracts are revealed. We expect the 30% stock dividend to create an added frenzy by investors loading up before HSTJ goes through the roof.

Certain statements contained in this newsletter may be future-looking statements within the meaning of The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements may be identified by such terms as expect, believe, may, will, and intend or similar terms. We are not a register ed invest ment expert or a broker dealer. This is not an offer to buy or sell securities. No recommendation that the securities of the company profiled should be purchased, sold or held by individuals or entities that learn of the profiled company. This is an independent electronic publication that was paid ten thousand dollars by a third party for the preparation of this company information. Be advised that investments in small-cap companies are considered to be high-risk and use of the information provided is for reading purposes only. If anyone decides to act as an investor they are advised not to invest without the proper advisement from a registered financial broker. If any party decides to participate as an investor then it will be that investor's sole risk. Be advised that the purchase of such high-risk securities may result in the loss of some or all of the investment. The publisher of this newsletter makes no claims as to the accuracy or the completeness of the company profile. Investors should not rely solely on the information presented. Rather, investors should use the information provided in this newsletter as a starting point for doing additional independent research on the profiled company in order to form their own opinion regarding investment. Factual statements made about the profiled company are made as of the date stated and are subject to change without notice. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly speculative and carries an extremely high degree of risk. It is possible that an investor's entire investment may be lost or impaired due to the speculative nature of the company profiled. All information provided about the profiled company has been obtained from publicly available sources which may include the company's web site, public filings, company press releases and informational web sites provided by the actual exchanges where small-cap stocks are traded.

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From cortezmontano@attractiveinternet.com Wed Sep 29 00:59:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25846 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from switch-118-180.pressinternet.net ([69.42.118.180]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCWgs-0004Ma-1r for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:07:46 -0400 From: "Matchmaker News" To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" Subject: "I wish I knew how to find a date tonight" Here is how Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:00:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0376706C7068306475666B6C7968436C6877693172756A$4df803ge2@tephis.attractiveinternet.com> X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit






From 9649.1902746@neboky.com Wed Sep 29 01:55:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA28992 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.63.180.6] (helo=mx1.mostal.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCXYi-0005QW-Tm for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:03:30 -0400 Received: by mx1.mostal.com (PowerMTA(TM) v2.0r6) id hb9772050u4e; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:55:58 -0700 (envelope-from <9649.1902746@neboky.com>) Message-Id: Reply-To: From: Real Estate Fortunes <9649.1902746@neboky.com> Subject: Wanted: Real Estate Investors Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:55:58 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=-bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy To: X-Spam-Score: 9.2 (+++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a ---bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

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---bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy-- -- End -- ---bkGI5ziJ-i-- From uyshdfxnkmea@concentric.net Wed Sep 29 03:08:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA00335; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCYhv-0006aA-Ap; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:16:59 -0400 Received: from c-24-13-52-25.client.comcast.net ([24.13.52.25]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CCYZs-0006ZQ-Nq; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:08:40 -0400 X-Message-Info: 98mrDCrwLF8DebGHC9CW82MosrSieAFsqkQjc918IO Received: from alltel.net (209.166.234.136) by ei7-dv25.alltel.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(9.5.9337.5331); Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:03:11 -0700 Received: from alltel.net (alltel.net 79.92.62.72) by alltel.net (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id w1GFSLDYH887 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:05:11 +0300 (EST) (envelope-from uyshdfxnkmea@concentric.net) Received: from LDJ162007263589 (modemcable6.67-4.kop.alltel.net 182.252.2.28) (authenticated bits=6) by alltel.net (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id xbi246SBJ2sx706 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:03:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from uyshdfxnkmea@concentric.net) Message-ID: <825mly556ebg57$yxs865o67wfl5$023rir75jj29@YVT2603301> From: "SmallCap Stocks" To: Subject: The Stox to Watch Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:08:11 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--429703231554892" X-Spam-Score: 7.5 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: e1924de3f9fb68e58c31920136007eb1 ----429703231554892 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't underestimate subpenny companies. Our new alert, SGYS is SubPenny Some of these subpenny companies go ballistic over night We urge you to watch this one tomorrow. Do not miss it... Did you watch these? November GDVI at 0.04 High 0.29...625% Gain December HTSC at 0.70 High 2.95...329% Gain March/April DMTY at 0.30 High 0.90...300% Gain April IPYS at 0.38 High 1.10...189% Gain in two days August AQGI at 0.06 High 0.19... 216% At the high, one day September SGYS? Synergy Software Development, Inc. ***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS*** Developing Products for the Billion Dollar Health Industry Reasons to consider: 1. SGYS designed and developed an Internet-based medical management proje= ct used by a 600-member physicians group in Palo Alto, California. (A prov= en product with a large customer base!) 2. SGYS implemented the back-end of an extranet site for an investment-ban= king firm. (More diversification in another powerhouse market!) 3. SGYS developed a healthcare management package for a physician organiz= ation in Buenos Aires, Argentina. (Domestic and International in scope!) 4. SGYS development partners include: Sun Microsystems, Netscape, Microsof= t, RSA, IBM and Silicon Graphics. (the leaders in their respective fields,= Big Names!) 5. SGYS uses the latest in programming and Internet tools to build their p= roducts including: JAVA, CFML, C++, HTML, dynamic XML, Oracle, PERL, Sun S= olaris and more. (Cutting edge tools for demanding applications!) 6. SGYS builds a =93state of the art=94 Comprehensive Health Information N= etwork, for health professionals and their clients. (Meeting the unique ne= eds of both sides of the Health Care equation) 7. SGYS has established the goal being the leading ASP (Application Servic= e Provider) and developer of data management and communications solutions.= (Being the BEST) 8. SGYS provides a solution to the rising costs of Health Care administrat= ion. (Savings that can be passed on to patients.) 9. SGYS created the first enterprise management software for the Internet.= (An innovator in the field) 10. SGYS helps to empower consumers to have an informed Physician-patient = relationship. (Breaking down barriers to better health and communication) 11. SGYS helps Medical professionals comply with confusing and ever changi= ng governmental rules and regulations. (Less time on paperwork more on pat= ient care) 12. SGYS uses non-propriety programming and tools making it easier to inte= grate their products into existing technology. (Painless transitions to th= eir products) 13. SGYS helps to reduce administrative costs that are a significant part = of every health care dollar. ( Again saving money) 14. SGYS products allow for Internet portals that aggregate health informa= tion and sources for medical professional and patients. (Making it easier = for people to find relevant and correct information.) 15. SGYS has the vision of creating Virtual On-line Communities that serve= local and regional information. (Helping local health care relationships = and community) 16. SGYS has many revenue streams related to its=92 products these include= : Access Fees, Medical Billing, Advertising, Sponsorship, Implementation f= ees, and more. (Many revenue streams, again not putting all of their eggs = in one basket.) 17. SGYS will charge $100,000+ per implementation for organizations with m= ore than 500 physicians. (Possibly much more depending on the situation an= d complexity.) 18. SGYS provides secure and safe products to keep information private and= provide peace of mind. (An important consideration in the Internet age) *** Helping to Keep Soaring Health Care Costs Down *** *** Serving the Ever Growing Medical Community *** Points to ponder: Healthcare costs are soaring; a large part of the cost is administrative = NOT direct patient care. It is estimated that 0.20 to 0.50 cents of every = health care dollar is for these admin. costs. Ever changing and more complex governmental regulations are a nightmare fo= r health care professional. They often spend more time on paperwork than d= irect patient care. The internet is a vast source of data for obtaining information about medi= cal conditions, but it is so decentralized. The information is often sketc= hy, wrong, or out of date. Trusted medical information portals help the co= nfusion and provide links to valid, trusted information. CONCLUSION SGYS has an established market, national and international sales, a divers= ified customer base, forward-looking management, and great products. Those= , coupled with the continued emphasis on health care costs, should mean gr= eat things for the company. If we've said it once we've said it 100 times. We never know for sure, but= these companies don't usually hire us if they have nothing to say so watc= h out for news. This is a SubPenny alert Sometimes these subpenny companies go ballistic Strong watch This week Disclaimer: The writers, PR firm, mailers involved in the creation, and distribution o= f the information above are not a registered broker/dealer and may not sel= l, offer to sell or offer to buy any security. This profile is not a solic= itation or recommendation to buy, sell securities. An offer to buy or sell= can be made only with accompanying disclosure documents from the company = offering or selling securities and only in the states and provinces for wh= ich they are approved. The material in this release is intended to be stri= ctly informational and based on assumptions rather than fact. The company = that is being discussed in this release has approved the statements made i= n this release. Information in this release is derived from a variety of = sources including that company's publicly disseminated information, third = parties and the writers research and optimistic speculation. The accuracy = or completeness of the information is not warranted and is only as reliabl= e as the sources from which it was obtained. All involved in the creation = and distribution of this profile/release disclaims any and all liability a= s to the completeness or accuracy of the information contained and any omi= ssions of material fact in this release. The release may contain technical= and factual inaccuracies or typographical errors. It is strongly recommen= ded that any purchase or sale decision be discussed with a financial advis= er, or a broker-dealer, or a member of any financial regulatory bodies. In= vestment in the securities of the companies discussed in this release is h= ighly speculative and carries a high degree of risk. This company has an a= ccumulated deficit since inception, negative net worth, has relied on loan= s from officers, directors to pay expenses, has a nominal cash position, ,= and no revenue or nominal revenue in most recent quarters. All persons i= nvolved in the creation and distribution of the information in this letter= are not liable for any investment decisions by its readers or subscribers= Investors are cautioned that they may lose all or a portion of their inv= estment if they make a purchase in this security mentioned. Any mention of= past profiles and returns are not our stock picks. This profile is not wi= thout bias, and is a paid release. Writers and mailers have been compensat= ed for the dissemination of company information on behalf of one or more o= f the companies mentioned in this release. Parties involved in the creatio= n and distribution of this profile have received four million two hundred = thousand free trading shares by a third party (third party), who is nonaf= filiated, for services provided including dissemination of company informa= tion in this release. The third party (liberty consulting Inc) and other i= ndividuals and other creators and mailers of this letter may hold a signi= ficant position and may sell all of their shares during the distribution o= f this profile. Parties involved may immediately sell some or any shares i= n a profiled company held by profile creators and may have previously sold= shares in a profiled company held by PR Individuals involved. Our Optin m= ailing services for a company may cause the company's stock price to incre= ase, in which event involved parties would make a profit when it sells its= stock in the company. In addition, our selling of a company's stock may h= ave a negative effect on the market price of the stock. The past profiles = are only the winners not all of them are our recommendations. To permanently stop receiving this Newsletter, please Send a blank e-mail = with No Thanks in the subject line to nostocks@supertraffic.info ----429703231554892-- From wo16281628@126.com Wed Sep 29 04:43:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA07859 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200409290843.EAA07859@ietf.org> Received: from [218.18.28.200] (helo=126.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCaBD-0000AE-34 for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:51:33 -0400 From: =?GB2312?B?ye7b2si6waa/xry8?= Subject: =?GB2312?B?s6y1zbzbKsep1Lyw/NTCKr/sy9nXqNK1yc/Dxc6s0N6158TU?= To: smime-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/html;charset="GB2312" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:51:41 +0800 X-Priority: 2 X-Mailer: FoxMail 3.11 Release [cn] X-Spam-Score: 7.4 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-NONENGLISH: Subject contains non-English characters X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a ÎÞ±êÌâÎĵµ
 

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QKqaVLHnQBYIK6kKK6x7E6sOu6+vakmwSq31tVQYdU9qwbGrihUlO1exGkLwmlEoiwtv+kd1Oq61 k6xc0bLESqk9VkZUabazovoinZSzqQo0F/sKv/QrsfodKkYVP8utV9GkBYuvwAGmV9upQnKvO0s7 BCuwhBWwYkG184oV0TFCGusQFos/bPsVZ4uwP3qwcou2dLutVJsAADs= ----71765617029406921826-- From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 29 16:27:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA06698 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8TK1wH5060133; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8TK1wD6060132; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8TK1veo060126 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dinaras@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04149; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200409292001.QAA04149@ietf.org> From: The IESG To: IETF-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org, Sean Turner , Blake Ramsdell Subject: WG Action: RECHARTER: S/MIME Mail Security (smime) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:01:56 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The charter of the S/MIME Mail Security (smime) working group in the Security Area of the IETF has been updated. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the working group Chairs. S/MIME Mail Security (smime) ============================ Current Status: Acrive Working Group Chair: Sean Turner Blake Ramsdell Security Area Director: Russ Housley Steve Belovin Security Area Advisor: Russ Housley Mailing Lists: General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/ Description of Working Group: The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications. The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed. CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) are one use of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent. To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group. The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to progress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280, which was developed by the PKIX working group. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005. Milestones: History Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard. Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC. Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC. Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard. Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard. Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC. Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification. Last call on X.400 transport specification. Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification. Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification. Last call on AES algorithm specification. Last call on update to MSG. First draft of update to CERT. First draft of CMS and ESS examples document. First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix. First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard. Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard. Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard. Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard. Last call on CMS and ESS examples document. Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard. Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard. First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification. Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC September 04 First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension October 04 Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension December 04 Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC January 05 Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix February 05 Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard November 05 Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification January 06 Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard From hbvcjpke@peoplepc.com Wed Sep 29 16:55:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12853 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CClcF-0000z4-Se for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:04:01 -0400 Received: from d141-64-18.home.cgocable.net ([24.141.64.18]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CClU7-0004Iw-CK for smime-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:55:35 -0400 X-Message-Info: PNJsixYPM31daXpXmci857mf31A639YqKcjy Received: from ixfhq23.erols.com (133.87.236.165) by osj3-bkg.erols.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:54:33 +0200 Received: from siteampexjdt422 (insolvent138.224.112.82) by erols.com (jqsci49) with SMTP id <836793946660zjd3528i> (Authid: DeePeterson); Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:55:33 -0100 From: "Dee Peterson" To: "'Smime-archive'" Subject: smoke for less Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:47:33 -0500 Message-ID: <357z2uqc85$6k44vv8$4h99n@motetviscositybonzeap2815> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--8927670791712607" X-Spam-Score: 7.5 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f ----8927670791712607 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tired of Paying High Tobacco Taxes?<= /font>
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Read more here: http://ca-t.com/lev/?levi Best regards, Ron Stevens No thanks: http://ca-t.com/rm.html From eqzenzbcqrx@linkline.com Wed Sep 29 21:11:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10776; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-24-3-152-39.client.comcast.net ([24.3.152.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCpbz-0000If-Um; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:20:01 -0400 Message-ID: <845221872995.55eh4as@snet.net> Received: from 80.239.69.88 by lwsgl2-zi0.dndcz1.snet.net with DAV; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:13:49 -0400 Reply-To: "Stockmarket Smallcap Profile" From: "Stockmarket Smallcap Profile" To: Subject: What Investors Need To Know Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:09:49 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--86462523631053565588" X-Spam-Score: 5.7 (+++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 7da5a831c477fb6ef97f379a05fb683c ----86462523631053565588 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello We at - STOCK WATCH GROUP - have following updates =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= Perfisans Networks Corporation OTCBB: PFNH Revenues Three Months Ended June 30,2004: 696,504 USD Revenues Six Months Ended June 30,2004: 1,032,322 USD Source. 10-Q August 16, 2004 OTCBB: MRKL Exploded from .48 on September 1st to 1.13 September 21st. Up 135 Percent. OTC: SHGY Closed at .30 on September 1st. This bad boy traded over 80 on Friday 9.24.04. These are the types of gains you can find with small unknown companies. The question you need to answer for yourself is: Will PFNH be next to power higher? About Perfisans Holdings Inc. Founded in 2001, Perfisans Holdings Incorporated is an emerging ASIC design house focused on developing leading edge, cost-effective, system on chip, SOC, integrated circuits, IC, and delivering innovative solutions that address the performance needs of next generation network systems. Rapidly being recognized by industry leaders for its innovative network interface products, the Companys technologies have applications in telecommunication, data communication, storage networks, content delivery networks, broadband networks and rich streaming media. 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Perfisans Delivers New Chip to Key Motherboard Makers If you think PFNH is a winner and goes higher, you may not want to wait until it's too late. Many of these stocks have really been performing for investors lately. Regards Curt STOCK WATCH GROUP Good Luck and Succesful Trading! Information within this publication contains future looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be future looking statements. Future looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Future looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as projects, foresee, expects, will, anticipates, estimates, believes, understands or that by statements indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with many microcap stocks, todays company has additional risk factors worth noting.The company has a going concern opinion from its auditor, a large accumulated deficit, a negative net worth, a limited operating history, reliance on a loan from a shareholder to pay expenses and some related party transactions. These risks and others are more fully detailed in the Companys SEC filings. We strongly urge you to review them before you invest. The Publisher of this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading. Read the compay's SEC filings before you invest. All information provided within this publication pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The Publisher of this newsletter advises all readers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this publication. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this newsletter is not a registered investment expert. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. Any reference to past performances of companies are specially selected to be referenced based on the favorable performance of these companies. You would need perfect timing to acheive the results in the examples given. There can be no assurance of that happening. Remember, as always, past performance is never indicative of future results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a review of a companys filings, should be completed prior to investing. The publisher has no relationship with MRKL or SHGY. In compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section17b, the Publisher of this newsletter discloses the receipt of eight thousand dollars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder of the company for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid publication and is not without bias. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Websites, SEC filings and Company Press Releases. The Publisher of this newsletter believes this information to be reliable but can make no assurance as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this publication constitutes your acceptance of these terms. ----86462523631053565588-- From 9653.1902746@neboky.com Thu Sep 30 01:42:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA28185 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.63.180.5] (helo=mailer12.mostal.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCtpr-0005N8-CI for smime-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:50:41 -0400 Received: by mailer12.mostal.com (PowerMTA(TM) v2.0r4) id hbee44050u45; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:39:41 -0700 (envelope-from <9653.1902746@neboky.com>) Message-Id: Reply-To: From: Deception <9653.1902746@neboky.com> Subject: It's cheating, but it works! 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---bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy-- -- End -- ---bkGI5ziJ-i-- From VKUZFHKEJOVIE@qei.com Thu Sep 30 03:16:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA19545; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 03:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [61.106.95.158] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCvIs-0007Kb-KB; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 03:24:39 -0400 X-Message-Info: 5J68AJRnojxi426S960vILIDtB621iL584mCHYexVGE328438 Received: from n-6-47-22-90.KNGXF0.RND_FROM_DOMAIN ([236.20.228.208]) by yqv77-ok8489.onslaw.com with Microsoft SMTPPG(2.5740.033.577166); Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:08:16 -0100 Message-ID: <3886350.91315.OKCUkns.1034je@onslaw.com> X-Originating-IP: [12.24.200.232] X-Originating-Email: [QFLMSALZSOVBT@onslaw.com] X-Sender: Carlo Healy X-MIME-Autoconverted: Yes Disclose-Recipients: No Discarded-X400-MTS-Extensions: Yes Original-Encoded-Information-Types: multipart/alternative X-No-Archive: Yes Reply-To: "Carlo Healy" From: "Carlo Healy" To: registrar@ietf.org Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org, rddp@ietf.org, music@ietf.org, l2tpext@ietf.org, maddogs@ietf.org, eqncdtwgkfussru@ietf.org, smime-archive@ietf.org, nsis-admin@ietf.org, cclark@ietf.org, pwot-admin@ietf.org, ldapext-admin@ietf.org, action@ietf.org, l3vpn-admin@ietf.org Subject: Here is the money we owe you Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:07:16 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--95057418129385552" X-Spam-Score: 9.1 (+++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab ----95057418129385552 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-4778-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Dear Applicant,

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QKqaVLHnQBYIK6kKK6x7E6sOu6+vakmwSq31tVQYdU9qwbGrihUlO1exGkLwmlEoiwtv+kd1Oq61 k6xc0bLESqk9VkZUabazovoinZSzqQo0F/sKv/QrsfodKkYVP8utV9GkBYuvwAGmV9upQnKvO0s7 BCuwhBWwYkG184oV0TFCGusQFos/bPsVZ4uwP3qwcou2dLutVJsAADs= ----96268449572244910870-- From parasiteeugenius@eastlink.ca Thu Sep 30 11:35:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01053 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [202.155.130.203] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD35p-0002Zj-Hk for smime-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:44:27 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Chase Cochran" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: If you or someone you love suffers from Diabetes, read this. 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name="completion.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64 Content-ID: <89109907y$948166920@localhost> Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64 R0lGODlhGQAXAMQAADE5St7e3pycnGNzlKWlpVprjP///5St1q29zu/v70pac3uMtXt7hOfn54Sc xqXG5729vZSUlLXW90JKY3OEpZy13oycvYSUpa21tVJjhISEhMzMzL3e92t7nGtzhPf39yH5BAQU AP8ALAAAAAAZABcAAAX/oCGOZDl+n6mWX7MhhCBgzWomm9UVSj9NjIBNFEDoCpmkDwBgJFYfDMVS WXQGgwIyM2FiVNGBYvBwUDrXK6+beZKiFIoCQHYszoXFepIRnjYLgR1MFQ93CwNnSRMdfiINFpF2 GXQSFlNnFEgKFzUiHwgOB6IHCz+Fd3FXChkEngYBpAezBwOVpWhXGR00nwi0FRUHFQ5dhZdqHREb npDBs8LBtgoPuAUdFBgBKR8bww/VzxUWcxSGVxTLnjgHDxIc1bQOgxNlZxHaKC05DxwcEsJmTZqw wAwDAhsSpIAFIUIFfwCHObBDIYMVBgI2bPvUoOEFcPFG2bHiQYMACNsWTRrAQUCDBlIT7zAoqYEA SjcnAmCIoIEBAzQePPiMEAFhgCcqDXzAsZNnTwYuBdhkhgKMCwgxiEaQgUGjwiFLA2zYAKEshLEN EijUxzYEADs= ----174959072571607-- From parasiteeugenius@eastlink.ca Thu Sep 30 11:36:32 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01164 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:36:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD37B-0002bY-So for smime-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:45:08 -0400 Received: from [218.191.124.8] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CD2yi-0006UU-CN for smime-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:36:20 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Chase Cochran" To: smime-archive@ietf.org Subject: If you or someone you love suffers from Diabetes, read this. 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name="completion.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64 Content-ID: <89109907y$948166920@localhost> Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64 R0lGODlhGQAXAMQAADE5St7e3pycnGNzlKWlpVprjP///5St1q29zu/v70pac3uMtXt7hOfn54Sc xqXG5729vZSUlLXW90JKY3OEpZy13oycvYSUpa21tVJjhISEhMzMzL3e92t7nGtzhPf39yH5BAQU AP8ALAAAAAAZABcAAAX/oCGOZDl+n6mWX7MhhCBgzWomm9UVSj9NjIBNFEDoCpmkDwBgJFYfDMVS WXQGgwIyM2FiVNGBYvBwUDrXK6+beZKiFIoCQHYszoXFepIRnjYLgR1MFQ93CwNnSRMdfiINFpF2 GXQSFlNnFEgKFzUiHwgOB6IHCz+Fd3FXChkEngYBpAezBwOVpWhXGR00nwi0FRUHFQ5dhZdqHREb npDBs8LBtgoPuAUdFBgBKR8bww/VzxUWcxSGVxTLnjgHDxIc1bQOgxNlZxHaKC05DxwcEsJmTZqw wAwDAhsSpIAFIUIFfwCHObBDIYMVBgI2bPvUoOEFcPFG2bHiQYMACNsWTRrAQUCDBlIT7zAoqYEA SjcnAmCIoIEBAzQePPiMEAFhgCcqDXzAsZNnTwYuBdhkhgKMCwgxiEaQgUGjwiFLA2zYAKEshLEN EijUxzYEADs= ----174959072571607-- From leticiacobb_vd@mayersnet.de Thu Sep 30 14:55:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18799 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xdsl-821.wroclaw.dialog.net.pl ([81.168.131.53] helo=123.hn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD6E1-00080x-Ko for smime-archive@ietf.org; 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---bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy-- -- End -- ---bkGI5ziJ-i-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8TK1wH5060133; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8TK1wD6060132; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8TK1veo060126 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dinaras@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04149; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200409292001.QAA04149@ietf.org> From: The IESG To: IETF-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org, Sean Turner , Blake Ramsdell Subject: WG Action: RECHARTER: S/MIME Mail Security (smime) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:01:56 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The charter of the S/MIME Mail Security (smime) working group in the Security Area of the IETF has been updated. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the working group Chairs. S/MIME Mail Security (smime) ============================ Current Status: Acrive Working Group Chair: Sean Turner Blake Ramsdell Security Area Director: Russ Housley Steve Belovin Security Area Advisor: Russ Housley Mailing Lists: General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/ Description of Working Group: The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications. The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed. CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) are one use of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent. To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group. The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to progress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280, which was developed by the PKIX working group. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005. Milestones: History Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard. Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC. Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC. Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard. Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard. Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC. Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification. Last call on X.400 transport specification. Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification. Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification. Last call on AES algorithm specification. Last call on update to MSG. First draft of update to CERT. First draft of CMS and ESS examples document. First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix. First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard. Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard. Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard. Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard. Last call on CMS and ESS examples document. Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard. Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard. First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification. Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC September 04 First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension October 04 Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension December 04 Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC January 05 Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix February 05 Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard November 05 Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification January 06 Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8Q9iuu2049507; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8Q9iumF049506; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:44:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 68.236.200.156 (dpvc-68-236-200-156.nwrk.east.verizon.net [68.236.200.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8Q9ioZJ049465 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:44:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 70po7lb@email.com) Message-Id: <200409260944.i8Q9ioZJ049465@above.proper.com> From: doron@isoc.org.il To: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: How one can become a terrorist? 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Do not hesitate to contact us via ICQ # 176928755 Impatiently awaiting for your orders, ShadowCrew Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8OG34Lw000282; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8OG34wq000281; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:03:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8OG3316000274 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:03:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from apache@megatron.ietf.org) Received: from apache by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.32) id 1CAsRI-0001q8-A0; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:56:52 -0400 X-test-idtracker: no From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Cc: Internet Architecture Board , RFC Editor , smime mailing list , smime chair , smime chair Subject: Protocol Action: 'Use of the SEED Encryption Algorithm in Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:56:52 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Use of the SEED Encryption Algorithm in Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) ' as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Russ Housley and Steve Bellovin. Technical Summary This document specifies the conventions for using the SEED encryption algorithm for encryption with the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS). Working Group Summary The S/MIME Working Group came to rough consensus on this document. Protocol Quality This document was reviewed by Russ Housley for the IESG. RFC Editor Note Please change the [CMS] reference. It should point to RFC 3852. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8KM7pGk035208; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8KM7pWr035207; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:07:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8KM7nBm035201 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:07:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from apache@megatron.ietf.org) Received: from apache by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.32) id 1C9WCG-0004XP-5v; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:44 -0400 X-test-idtracker: no From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Cc: Internet Architecture Board , RFC Editor , smime mailing list , smime chair , smime chair Subject: Document Action: 'Examples of S/MIME Messages' to Informational RFC Message-Id: Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:44 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Examples of S/MIME Messages ' as an Informational RFC This document is the product of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Russ Housley and Steve Bellovin. Technical Summary This document gives examples S/MIME messages. Specifically, it has examples of Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) objects and S/MIME messages, including the MIME encapsulation. It includes examples of many common CMS formats. The purpose of this document is to help increase interoperability for S/MIME and other protocols that rely on CMS by providing test data for implementors. Working Group Summary The S/MIME working group reached consensus on this document. Protocol Quality At least two implementations have verified the correctness of each example. This document was reviewed by Russ Housley for the IESG. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8KAOWHp066240; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:24:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8KAOWjf066239; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:24:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8KAOUQL066220 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8KAOUN05021; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:24:30 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:24:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8KAOTj11117; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:24:29 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:24:29 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409201024.i8KAOTj11117@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > Russ Housley writes: > > >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never > >be released to the IETF. However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms- > >fw-wrap. This has many properties in common with the application that is not > >yet ready for release. Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of > >CMS to protect that content type is specified. S/MIME is not used, only CMS. The text currently specifies that a hardware modules adds a singing-time attributes if it has a clock. Nothing is said about verification which may be delegated to DPV servers etc. So the new attribute may even have an impact to such servers. I don't think that such firmwares have a big problem to create a current signing time attribute. The amount of code necessary to do CMS is huge compared with the few lines of conversion. And, as soon as you have any kind of user interface, you probably want to parameterize something else than seconds. As soon as you do anything with certs and not only with trust annchors, you need logic to convert binary to textual time. > If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra > attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces? That sounds a good compromise to me. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8K9trRC054417; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8K9tric054416; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8K9toPP054362 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8K9tjN04625; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:55:45 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:55:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8K9thO11039; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:55:43 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:55:43 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409200955.i8K9thO11039@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > No. That is not what I meant to say. I was trying to answer your query > about the rule regarding 2050 and signing-time. I see (at least I hope to). > > Five years ago, there was a debate about the signing-time attribute. In > PKCS#9, it only supports UTCTime. There was a debate about using the same > OID with the construct that includes a GeneralizedTime alternative. At > that time, the decision was to align with RFC 2459. X.509 was also being > updated at roughly the same time. The situation is different: Supporting GeneralizedTime in the signedTime attribute is not necessary before 2050, so you don't have an alternative encoding but a new one after 2050. It is an upgrade that doe not create backwards compatibility problems (as far as I see). PKCS#9 v2 had been aligned to add generalizedtime, 2? Your spec creates an alternative encoding for dates, which require more than a migration, you will need to code both attributes, always. A receiving implementation of the new attributes must be prepared to handle the two options, i.e. UTCTIME/GT or binary, since on creation you can use any of them. So in one way or the other, a decoder need some conversion routine, unless you have made some prior agreement. Or, at least I'd remove the non-binary choices from the new attribute, i.e. use the initial proposition. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HIWIoh092303; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HIWHrE092302; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:32:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HIWGGm092295 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 7180 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 18:32:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.160.173) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 18:32:15 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917143105.05d46c50@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:32:14 -0400 To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114319.05c44008@mail.binhost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: That was what draft -00 did. I changed it based on feed back from Peter^2. Russ At 12:42 PM 9/17/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: >Russ Housley writes: > > >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may > never > >be released to the IETF. However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms- > >fw-wrap. This has many properties in common with the application that > is not > >yet ready for release. Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of > >CMS to protect that content type is specified. S/MIME is not used, only > CMS. > >If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra >attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces? > >Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HGgr66082958; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HGgr4K082957; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (groucho.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HGgp3T082948 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F1633FA5; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:47 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25337-02; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:46 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F2633F66; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:46 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B338D37751; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:46 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C8Lp3-0005jr-00; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:57 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114319.05c44008@mail.binhost.com> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:42:57 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ Housley writes: >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never >be released to the IETF. However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms- >fw-wrap. This has many properties in common with the application that is not >yet ready for release. Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of >CMS to protect that content type is specified. S/MIME is not used, only CMS. If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces? Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HG2QFW080096; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:02:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HG2QI4080095; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:02:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HG2PHk080089 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:02:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 20007 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 16:02:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (151.200.243.64) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 16:02:20 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917120245.05cbf920@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:03:05 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409171120.i8HBK8Q26714@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409171120.i8HBK8Q26714@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I propose: Second, in some operating systems, the value can be used with little or no conversion. Conversion, when it is needed, requires only straightforward computation. If the endian ordering is different than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward manipulation is needed to obtain an equivalent integer value. If the epoch is different than the one chosen for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or division is needed to compensate. Also, padding may be needed convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed length value used in the operating system. Russ At 07:20 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > > > > > >1.1 BinaryTime > > > > > > > > > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an > integer. This > > > > > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and > time in > > > > > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > > > > > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and > GeneralizedTime > > > > > types. > > > > > > > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. > > > > > > > > I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating > > > > systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other > > > encoding) is > > > > going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve > endian > > > > issues at a minimum. > > > > > >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on > > >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). > > > > I am very confused here. Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 > > for time values. These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER. > > > >There is a difference between 'easy to do' and 'nothing to do'. > >As P.G. pointed out (forgetting at least one other machine type) even if >time values are represented as integers, the granularity is not the same >everywhere. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HFrjww078878; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HFrjON078877; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HFriUu078865 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 17295 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 15:53:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.144.46) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 15:53:43 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114940.05c4c9c8@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:54:28 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409171118.i8HBI0H26707@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409171118.i8HBI0H26707@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: No. That is not what I meant to say. I was trying to answer your query about the rule regarding 2050 and signing-time. Five years ago, there was a debate about the signing-time attribute. In PKCS#9, it only supports UTCTime. There was a debate about using the same OID with the construct that includes a GeneralizedTime alternative. At that time, the decision was to align with RFC 2459. X.509 was also being updated at roughly the same time. Your question about the experiment is answered in another message. Russ At 07:18 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: >Without having looked into whatever archive, by reading the following >two comments, I tend to interprete them as: > > Five years ago there was a debate about whether or not to add a binary time > format in a signingTime attribute. This had not been adopted, and > since then, no proposition or urgent need had occured. > > Since then there has been a revison of the underlying text, i.e., PKCS9, > so far, I haven' seen any proposals in this direction either > (I don't have my eyes everywhere, though). > > Where is the experiment? > > > > > Peter: > > > > > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve > > > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. > > > > > > > > We have already had this debate. > > > > > >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new > > >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only > > >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds. > > > > I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, > > so it was at least five years ago. > > > > Russ > > > > > > The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published. I do not see the WG > > opening it up for this ... > > > > Russ > > > > > > >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment > > > > > > > > > > The other Peter's suggestion: > > > > > > Time ::= CHOICE { > > > utcTime UTCTime, > > > generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, > > > epochSeconds INTEGER} > > > > > > > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would > deal with > > > > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > > > > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec > would > > > > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending > applications. > > > > > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HFri3W078869; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HFriTU078867; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HFrhS8078853 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 17291 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 15:53:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.144.46) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 15:53:42 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114319.05c44008@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:48:48 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409171115.i8HBFuk26688@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409171115.i8HBFuk26688@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Yes, I have an application. It is using BinaryTime in the content, and the desire is to use the same date/time format throughout the application. The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never be released to the IETF. However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms-fw-wrap. This has many properties in common with the application that is not yet ready for release. Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of CMS to protect that content type is specified. S/MIME is not used, only CMS. Russ At 07:15 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > Peter: > > > > You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute. > > > > My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general. > >You are not answering my questions. may I conclude that you have no >application at all at hand? if so, what is the experiment? > >The proposed text concerns a a signing-time attribute. > > > > > Russ > > > > At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time > from the > > > > operating system seems very obvious to me. > > > > > >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old, > > >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HFri8D078868; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HFriru078866; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8HFrhNq078852 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 17288 invoked by uid 0); 17 Sep 2004 15:53:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.144.46) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2004 15:53:42 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917114001.05b4d950@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:40:34 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409171115.i8HBFrq26685@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409171115.i8HBFrq26685@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I propose: The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this document. Therefore, only one of these attributes SHOULD be present in the signedAttrs of a SignerInfo object or in the authAttrs of an AuthenticatedData object. However, if both of these attributes are present, they MUST provide the same date and time. Russ At 07:15 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > Peter: > > > > Would you prefer MUST? > > > > Russ > > > >I don't think that we are debating on the best way to protect >from the results of the Chernobyl or Harrisburg events, in our >case the power plant has not even been constructed. > >I think it is up to *you* to explain why there is a SHOULD, a MUST >or whatever addressing the situation of two semantically equivalent >occurences of a time value, whilst in the definition of >signingTime there are several MUSTs ensuring only one. > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBKASc051956; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:20:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBKAeC051955; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:20:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBK80R051948 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBK9N25631; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:20:09 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:20:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBK8Q26714; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:20:08 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:20:08 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171120.i8HBK8Q26714@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > > > >1.1 BinaryTime > > > > > > > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This > > > > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in > > > > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > > > > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime > > > > types. > > > > > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. > > > > > > I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating > > > systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other > > encoding) is > > > going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve endian > > > issues at a minimum. > > > >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on > >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). > > I am very confused here. Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 > for time values. These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER. > There is a difference between 'easy to do' and 'nothing to do'. As P.G. pointed out (forgetting at least one other machine type) even if time values are represented as integers, the granularity is not the same everywhere. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBI2m2051818; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:18:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBI222051817; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBI0Jx051810 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBI1N25586; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:01 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBI0H26707; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:00 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:18:00 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171118.i8HBI0H26707@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Without having looked into whatever archive, by reading the following two comments, I tend to interprete them as: Five years ago there was a debate about whether or not to add a binary time format in a signingTime attribute. This had not been adopted, and since then, no proposition or urgent need had occured. Since then there has been a revison of the underlying text, i.e., PKCS9, so far, I haven' seen any proposals in this direction either (I don't have my eyes everywhere, though). Where is the experiment? > > Peter: > > > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve > > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. > > > > > > We have already had this debate. > > > >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new > >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only > >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds. > > I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, > so it was at least five years ago. > > Russ > > > The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published. I do not see the WG > opening it up for this ... > > Russ > > > >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment > > > > > > > The other Peter's suggestion: > > > > Time ::= CHOICE { > > utcTime UTCTime, > > generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, > > epochSeconds INTEGER} > > > > > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with > > > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > > > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would > > > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBH0an051736; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBH0PI051735; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:17:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBGwMs051728 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBGxN25571; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:16:59 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:16:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBGww26700; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:16:58 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:16:58 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171116.i8HBGww26700@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I probably or eventually don't want you to stop you think that, i.e., you may or may not continue to believe I *must* agree or disagree to agree or disagree, or else. > On this aspect, I thing we must agree to disagree. One man's > straightforward is obviously not the same as another man's straightforward. > > Russ > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBG1Mi051649; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBG007051644; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBFxWs051633 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBFvN25558; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:57 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBFuk26688; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:56 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:56 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171115.i8HBFuk26688@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > Peter: > > You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute. > > My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general. You are not answering my questions. may I conclude that you have no application at all at hand? if so, what is the experiment? The proposed text concerns a a signing-time attribute. > > Russ > > At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the > > > operating system seems very obvious to me. > > > >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old, > >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBG1YQ051650; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8HBG1IP051648; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HBFxBa051630 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:16:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8HBFtN25549; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:55 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8HBFrq26685; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:53 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:15:53 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409171115.i8HBFrq26685@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > Peter: > > Would you prefer MUST? > > Russ > I don't think that we are debating on the best way to protect from the results of the Chernobyl or Harrisburg events, in our case the power plant has not even been constructed. I think it is up to *you* to explain why there is a SHOULD, a MUST or whatever addressing the situation of two semantically equivalent occurences of a time value, whilst in the definition of signingTime there are several MUSTs ensuring only one. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GLKlm6077441; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GLKlXP077440; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GLKkF9077434 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 8080 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 21:20:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.172.177) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 21:20:44 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916172123.058efd10@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:21:49 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: Would you prefer MUST? Russ >Is there a particular reason for the SHOULD in the following? > > The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same > semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this > document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD > provide the same date and time. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GLJ7A1077302; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GLJ7vI077301; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GLJ652077294 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 7642 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 21:19:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.172.177) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 21:19:03 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916171915.058e1ba0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:20:09 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: Again, you have focused on the signing -time attribute, not other possible uses for BnaryTime. Russ > > > Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime. Integer > > > comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. > > > Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when > > > the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones. > > > > > >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute. > > >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST. > > > > Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime. It is the one > > specified in the document. However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it > > will start appearing in other places. This would be an indication that > the > > Experimental RFC is useful. > >You don't address what I have said. You indicate that time zone >comparisons are difficult, but they do not even occur within the >existing signingTime attribute. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GLHQA9077220; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GLHQub077219; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GLHPNu077213 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 7172 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 21:17:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.172.177) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 21:17:23 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916171707.0591cec0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:21 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute. My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general. Russ At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote: > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the > > operating system seems very obvious to me. > >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old, >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GKXLHw074343; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:33:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GKXL9V074342; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:33:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GKXKuQ074336 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 24796 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 20:33:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.214.123) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 20:33:17 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916163142.0584e9e8@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:34:21 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > > First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a > > > GeneralizedTime value. > > > > > >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ... > > > > > > Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without > > > conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do > > > so with straightforward computation. > > > > > >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length > > >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare > > >the date with some local integer value? > > > > Many values can use used directly. If the endian ordering is different on > > a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed. If the > > epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If > > the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or > > division is needed to compensate. To me, these are "straightforward > > computation." > >To summarize: > > - variable length encoding > - endian > - substraction or addition, > - multiplications on IBM 3x0 series. > >This seems to me at least as straightforward as a few multiplications fo >a character string based, no variable length, no endian issue, >an addition/substraction for UTCTime. ... On this aspect, I thing we must agree to disagree. One man's straightforward is obviously not the same as another man's straightforward. Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GKSSwv074043; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GKSSe5074042; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GKSRkW074036 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 23147 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 20:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.214.123) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 20:28:25 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916162728.05827bb0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:29:29 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > >1.1 BinaryTime > > > > > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This > > > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in > > > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > > > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime > > > types. > > > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. > > > > I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating > > systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other > encoding) is > > going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve endian > > issues at a minimum. > >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). I am very confused here. Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 for time values. These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER. Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GKNHKN073716; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:23:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GKNHUa073715; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GKNEs0073703 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 21425 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 20:23:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.214.123) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 20:23:12 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916162313.0581c4b0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:24:17 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. > > > > We have already had this debate. > >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds. I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, so it was at least five years ago. Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GJ7ivc065830; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:07:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8GJ7iRA065829; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:07:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8GJ7h44065823 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 26419 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 2004 19:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.138.226) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2004 19:07:41 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916150650.0342b618@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:07:44 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published. I do not see the WG opening it up for this ... Russ >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment > > > > The other Peter's suggestion: > > Time ::= CHOICE { > utcTime UTCTime, > generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, > epochSeconds INTEGER} > > > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with > > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would > > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8FDDHbR001201; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8FDDHfc001200; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:13:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8FDDFjF001194 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:13:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8FDDGN21963; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:13:16 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:13:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8FDDF018953; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:13:15 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:13:15 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409151313.i8FDDF018953@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > I think this is an unacceptable approach. It could lead to decode errors > in implementations that support the signing-time attribute that is defined > in CMS. Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment > The other Peter's suggestion: Time ::= CHOICE { utcTime UTCTime, generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, epochSeconds INTEGER} > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. > Dave > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. > > We have already had this debate. When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds. You answered to Peter Gutman's comment ... >The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats >have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a >format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What >real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep >the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the >Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would >feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID >value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... with : Any of these is possible, but a choice defeats the whole point, which is to avoid complex conversion. And now you add a choice, and, furthermore, values that you qualify as more difficult to handle. > At least two people see potential value 'A potential value'? I have not seen anything concrete except There are no existing applications in this space, and thus no backwards compatibilty issues. But CMS and a newly defined attribute can be applied to future applications without having any impact on existing apps. > in the BinaryTime. Clearly there is not a ground swell of support. This > is the reason that the "Status of this Memo" section indicates that this > will become an Experimental RFC. In this way, we can find out if there is > any value from implementations. If no implementations emerge, then we can > let it drop. On the other hand, if implementors find it useful, then a > standards-track RFC can follow later. First of all, the IESG has something to say here. So please don't say 'it will become'. Becoming experimental requires that the IESG determines whether the protocol is not in conflict with some existing text. At least, with the new text, this seems clearly the case to me, i.e., in conflict with almost everything that can be told about the existing attribute, and any of the supposed benefits seem wrong to me. At least, I think the IESG should add some appropriate wording to explain whether of not the text is in conflict with exsiting standardisation work. > >But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time). > > > >1.1 BinaryTime > > > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This > > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in > > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime > > types. > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. > > I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating > systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other encoding) is > going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve endian > issues at a minimum. An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). > > First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a > > GeneralizedTime value. > > > >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ... > > > > Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without > > conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do > > so with straightforward computation. > > > >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length > >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare > >the date with some local integer value? > > Many values can use used directly. If the endian ordering is different on > a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed. If the > epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If > the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or > division is needed to compensate. To me, these are "straightforward > computation." To summarize: - variable length encoding - endian - substraction or addition, - multiplications on IBM 3x0 series. This seems to me at least as straightforward as a few multiplications fo a character string based, no variable length, no endian issue, an addition/substraction for UTCTime. ... > I can state all of this if you like: > > Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without > conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do > so with straightforward computation. If the endian ordering is different > than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward > manipulation is needed. If the epoch is different than the one chosen > for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If the > granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or > division is needed to compensate. Also, padding may be needed > convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed > length value used in the operating system. Tell me any operating system where the value can be used without any small treatment. See also the comments about internal formats from P.G. concerning the word 'many'. > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the > operating system seems very obvious to me. And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old, not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP? > >As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case > >if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to > >convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists > >on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used > >at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing > >the SignerInfo structure. > > The certificates and crls are optional in SignerInfo. The SignedData sid > field can be used to identify a public key that is not embedded in a > certificate, such as a trust anchor. Indeed, this case is a one where Signeddata have GeneralizedTime (unless I have overseen something). Well, the type is also proposed for Authenticated-data, and somewhere in the the key exchange info you have date in generalizedTime, but this is probaly never used at all here. > > Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime. Integer > > comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. > > Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when > > the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones. > > > >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute. > >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST. > > Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime. It is the one > specified in the document. However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it > will start appearing in other places. This would be an indication that the > Experimental RFC is useful. You don't address what I have said. You indicate that time zone comparisons are difficult, but they do not even occur within the existing signingTime attribute. > > String comparison is as easy as integer comparison. > > > >In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult > >to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local > >time definitions with simply shift or else. > > I think this is addressed by my proposed text above. Yes, which makes the logic as "complex" as for the existing character encodings IMO. > > >The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least > >a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-) > > The integer representation will not have trouble in 10000 ;-) > > > This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are > > saved. > > > >Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years, > >you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need > >at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments > >of UTCTime. > > I do not see this one. Some operating systems already use int64 to > represent time. Paddings, endians conversion, etc, all need time. > >Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets. > >If you want to do this, code in PER for example. > > PER of the character string will not reduce it to 4 or 5 octets. I was thinking of PER for the whole signedData, or some completely different format removing all unnecessary tags, ecapsulations etc. > >5 Security Considerations > > > > This specification does not introduce any new security considerations > > beyond those already discussed in [CMS]. > > > >CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute. > >Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you > >add new considerations. > > Okay. This is not the point I wanted to make, but I can see how you can > interpret it that way. I'll delete the paragraph. > > > Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily > > provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced. > > Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a > > recipient's discretion. RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for > > obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity. > > > > The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same > > semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this > > document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD > > > >SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical, > >or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume > >any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing > >can be said about the two values. > > > > provide the same date and time. > > > >At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about > >savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip > >or parse. > > > >RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence > >of the signingTime attribuet and only one value. > > > >With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this > >mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong? > > No. I was trying to accommodate a situation where the signature would be > checked by two recipients, one that prefers signing-time and one that > prefers signing-time2. I cannot see a better way to handle this situation. At least, as Peter Gutmann says: you have lost all the space gain as the other Peter told, implementations would prbably need to add the two attributes. Is there a particular reason for the SHOULD in the following? The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD provide the same date and time. Peter Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8E0pT7Z085804; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8E0pTRO085803; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:51:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com (smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8E0pSWX085795 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.64.187 with plain) by smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2004 00:51:31 -0000 Message-ID: <41463F6F.3010505@ieca.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:39 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Capel CC: "'Stefan Santesson'" , ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) References: <001601c4973c$1b00b680$01b5a8c0@tony> In-Reply-To: <001601c4973c$1b00b680$01b5a8c0@tony> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: If I'm not there at the pkiops BOF somebody make sure to bring this up!

Tony Capel wrote:
Message
Sean:
 
I have no problem with this approach, (although even when specified as "optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - potentially complete with "silent revocation/renewal").
 
I fully agree with your comments about potential "dynamic" approach(s).  Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not already) that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other information (sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or otherwise) as well as just the pki certs. 
 
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: September 9, 2004 9:30 AM
To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)

All,

After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts. 

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:
Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    
of
  
scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    
and
  
it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    
that.
  
This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    
should
  
make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    
the
  
well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    
simple to
  
do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    
Those
  
guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    
message
  
on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    
CRL's
  
by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    
provide
  
sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    
it
  
will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    
The
  
server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    
is
  
the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    
all
  
the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    
reaction.
  
If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    
the
  
extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    
more
  
palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| >
| > Stefan:
| >
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| >
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| >
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    
and
  
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| >
| >
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    
used
  
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| >
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    
as
  
| well.
| >
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    
binding
  
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    
are
  
| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| >
|
|
Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8DKKhFQ062108; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8DKKhDK062107; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i8DKKgVb062098 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 9830 invoked by uid 0); 13 Sep 2004 20:20:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.181.90) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2004 20:20:37 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040913154756.02e4fec0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:21:41 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409130945.i8D9jVZ10381@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409130945.i8D9jVZ10381@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: >I think you have misunderstood some of the remarks: > >The new text adds the syntax of the existing signingTime attribute >to the new one, thus make the new one a superset. > >The suggestion was to add a binary time to the existing one >(assumed that anything should be done), but certainly not to >reintroduce the options of the existing attributes. I think this is an unacceptable approach. It could lead to decode errors in implementations that support the signing-time attribute that is defined in CMS. >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. We have already had this debate. At least two people see potential value in the BinaryTime. Clearly there is not a ground swell of support. This is the reason that the "Status of this Memo" section indicates that this will become an Experimental RFC. In this way, we can find out if there is any value from implementations. If no implementations emerge, then we can let it drop. On the other hand, if implementors find it useful, then a standards-track RFC can follow later. >But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time). > >1.1 BinaryTime > > Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This > document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in > a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This > approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime > types. > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. I do not understand this comment. The quoted text says that operating systems use an integer, not a character string. BER (or other encoding) is going to be applied in either case. This is essential to resolve endian issues at a minimum. > First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a > GeneralizedTime value. > >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ... > > Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without > conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do > so with straightforward computation. > >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare >the date with some local integer value? Many values can use used directly. If the endian ordering is different on a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed. If the epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or division is needed to compensate. To me, these are "straightforward computation." I can state all of this if you like: Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do so with straightforward computation. If the endian ordering is different than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward manipulation is needed. If the epoch is different than the one chosen for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate. If the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or division is needed to compensate. Also, padding may be needed convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed length value used in the operating system. Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the operating system seems very obvious to me. >As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case >if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to >convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists >on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used >at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing >the SignerInfo structure. The certificates and crls are optional in SignerInfo. The SignedData sid field can be used to identify a public key that is not embedded in a certificate, such as a trust anchor. > Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime. Integer > comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. > Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when > the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones. > >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute. >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST. Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime. It is the one specified in the document. However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it will start appearing in other places. This would be an indication that the Experimental RFC is useful. > String comparison is as easy as integer comparison. > >In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult >to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local >time definitions with simply shift or else. I think this is addressed by my proposed text above. >The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least >a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-) The integer representation will not have trouble in 10000 ;-) > This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are > saved. > >Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years, >you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need >at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments >of UTCTime. I do not see this one. Some operating systems already use int64 to represent time. >Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets. >If you want to do this, code in PER for example. PER of the character string will not reduce it to 4 or 5 octets. >5 Security Considerations > > This specification does not introduce any new security considerations > beyond those already discussed in [CMS]. > >CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute. >Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you >add new considerations. Okay. This is not the point I wanted to make, but I can see how you can interpret it that way. I'll delete the paragraph. > Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily > provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced. > Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a > recipient's discretion. RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for > obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity. > > The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same > semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this > document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD > >SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical, >or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume >any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing >can be said about the two values. > > provide the same date and time. > >At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about >savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip >or parse. > >RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence >of the signingTime attribuet and only one value. > >With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this >mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong? No. I was trying to accommodate a situation where the signature would be checked by two recipients, one that prefers signing-time and one that prefers signing-time2. I cannot see a better way to handle this situation. >Does someone remember the reason why the 3369 spec says that >all dates between 1950 and 2050 MUST be coded in UTCTime? Yep. That is the rule in RFC 2459. >Is it because of existing systems or in order to have a >canonocal form, i.e. like DER? >With the proposed spec identical information can have two different >signatures. At the time, most implementations could not handle GeneralizedTime at all. This technique provided a transition period. Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8D9k8l9080662; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8D9k8Z7080661; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:46:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8D9jvis080587 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:45:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i8D9jpN12048; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:51 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i8D9jVZ10381; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:31 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:31 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409130945.i8D9jVZ10381@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt X-Sun-Charset: ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ, I think you have misunderstood some of the remarks: The new text adds the syntax of the existing signingTime attribute to the new one, thus make the new one a superset. The suggestion was to add a binary time to the existing one (assumed that anything should be done), but certainly not to reintroduce the options of the existing attributes. There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time). 1.1 BinaryTime Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer. This document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in a manner that is compatible with these operating systems. This approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types. Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember. First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a GeneralizedTime value. True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ... Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without conversion. The operating systems that do require conversion can do so with straightforward computation. You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare the date with some local integer value? As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing the SignerInfo structure. Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones. There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute. One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST. String comparison is as easy as integer comparison. In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local time definitions with simply shift or else. The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-) This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are saved. Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years, you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments of UTCTime. Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets. If you want to do this, code in PER for example. 5 Security Considerations This specification does not introduce any new security considerations beyond those already discussed in [CMS]. CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute. Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you add new considerations. Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced. Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a recipient's discretion. RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity. The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this document. If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical, or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing can be said about the two values. provide the same date and time. At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip or parse. RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence of the signingTime attribuet and only one value. With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong? Does someone remember the reason why the 3369 spec says that all dates between 1950 and 2005à MUST be coded in UTCTime? Is it because of existing systems or in order to have a canonocal form, i.e. like DER? With the proposed spec identical information can have two different signatures. Peter Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8BCnuFT000286; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 05:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8BCnugU000285; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 05:49:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.13]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8BCntHo000278 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 05:49:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905ED33FF5; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:49:49 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00362-09; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:49:49 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E027133FC7; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:49:47 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71CC37742; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:49:46 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C67KG-0006DM-00; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:49:56 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040907103309.07b66008@mail.binhost.com> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:49:56 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ Housley writes: >So, if it were an experimental document, you would have not issues? Experimental would be fine. As long as there's an indication to the masses that there's a different degree of importance between support for extensions/options like MessageDigest and ones like BinaryTime. (I'd still suggest though that if space saving is the primary concern, an approach like the SimpleSigningAttributes one would be better, since apart from the 15-20 bytes *per extension* saved you could use further tweaks like making ContentType default to "data" (the most common case), using enums instead of OIDs (that is, make it a CHOICE between standard-content-type as an enum and OIDs for nonstandard types), etc etc etc. Peter Sylvester's suggestion of packing everything in with the data is even more compact, if slightly less flexible). Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8ADeuKQ091853; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8ADeum6091852; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8ADetY2091846 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail4.magma.ca (mail4.magma.ca [206.191.0.222]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i8ADesLT022272; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:40:55 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail4.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i8ADejwo010391; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:40:54 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: "'Sean P. Turner'" , "'Stefan Santesson'" Cc: Subject: RE: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:43:01 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c4973c$1b00b680$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C4971A.93EF1680" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <41405AE0.3050201@ieca.com> Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C4971A.93EF1680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sean: =20 I have no problem with this approach, (although even when specified as "optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - = potentially complete with "silent revocation/renewal"). =20 I fully agree with your comments about potential "dynamic" approach(s). Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever "ways to = make certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not = already) that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other information = (sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or otherwise) as well = as just the pki certs.=20 =20 Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org = [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner Sent: September 9, 2004 9:30 AM To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) All, After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one = for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability. I base this = on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty = much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), = compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board. If = another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will = discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case. My only caution is that I = don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates = that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if = people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make = certificate use and deployment easy." I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but = they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both = optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts. = =20 spt Stefan Santesson wrote: Tony, I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you oversimplify this issue. Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of the null signed message. If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities. If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well. And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data. Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with renewed certs or multiple valid certs. Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons, revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies, etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions. The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple! I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which should be done before end of this year. There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of the current spec use the already established structure for the sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway. If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC. And I'm not the guy to lead that effort. Maybe you are? :-) Stefan Santesson Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE) =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18 To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Stefan: I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation =20 of =20 scope. Please bear with me. Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, =20 and =20 it seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do =20 that. =20 This is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we =20 should =20 make sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to =20 the =20 well too often ;-). To do that we need to consider what is quick and =20 simple to =20 do today and also where we might go. So I think this discussion now is valuable. I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made complex as you demonstrate. The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts). =20 Those =20 guys did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, SMTP, or whatever when they defined it. They only worried about what the CRL format was to be. In our case I propose we already have a format: a null signed message. Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be carried in a null signed message too. I suspect that if I posted a null signed =20 message =20 on a website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even work today (??). And frankly, if an organization is already distributing =20 CRL's =20 by whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to =20 provide =20 sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and =20 it =20 will also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!). =20 The =20 server just responds with a static null signed item. Processing on receipt =20 is =20 the same as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages. I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks that the only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick =20 all =20 the sMIMECapabilities into the cert. I think we will get a negative =20 reaction. =20 If it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more efficient, we have a better chance. I have also mentioned that we should make =20 the =20 extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it =20 more =20 palatable, but that's another thread.... Tony | -----Original Message----- | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | | | Tony, | | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic | sMIMECapabilities! | | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this | take off in a million directions. | | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out | how you will structure the extension referring to this data | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, | ldap, ftp. | | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to | distinguish between capabilities for different applications | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if | there might be a reason to let different entities sign | different parts of the capabilities data. | | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some | certificates gets revoked or renewed. | | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that | would be if it is.... | | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to | make a bet:-) | | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. | | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it | own project. | | /Stefan | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | > | > Stefan: | > | > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. | > | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of | > | complexity. | > | | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the | framework for | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. | > | > This does not require the server to create authenticated | data on-line, | the | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or | end entity, | or | > an | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were | put in the | > cert itself. Whoever (CA | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create =20 and =20 | sign | > the | > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed | item is then | > stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the | sMIMECapabilities | > are | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). | > | > | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution | Specification" | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be =20 used =20 | to | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the | issue | > of | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the | sMIMECapabilities | > and the | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). | > | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order =20 as =20 | well. | > | > | > Tony | > | > | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the | moment. | > I | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such =20 binding =20 | even | > if | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end | systems | > is not | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to | specific | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities =20 are =20 | > probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method | > inherently | securely | > binds | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this | is a NICE | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional | > considerations | are | > needed | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. | > | | =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C4971A.93EF1680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Sean:
 
I=20 have no problem with this approach, (although even when specified = as=20 "optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - = potentially=20 complete with "silent revocation/renewal").
 
I=20 fully agree with your comments about potential "dynamic" = approach(s). =20 Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever = "ways to make=20 certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not=20 already) that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other = information=20 (sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or=20 otherwise) as well as just the pki certs. 
 
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] = On=20 Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: September 9, 2004 9:30=20 AM
To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel
Cc:=20 ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Static vs Dynamic = sMIMECapabilities=20 draft(s)

All,

After following the = discussion, I=20 think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and = one for=20 the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame = necessary to=20 complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the = security=20 considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" = draft, which=20 is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is = produced=20 that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we = are=20 discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I = don't want=20 the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's = already=20 covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people = think that=20 those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in = Washington=20 that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and = deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing = but=20 they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and = they're both=20 optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in = separate=20 drafts. 

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:
Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
=20

  
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    
of
  
scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    
and
  
it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    
that.
  
This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    
should
  
make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    
the
  
well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    
simple to
  
do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    
Those
  
guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    
message
  
on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    
CRL's
  
by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    
provide
  
sMIMECapabilities in a null =
signed message is not much more work (and
    
it
  
will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    
The
  
server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    
is
  
the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    
all
  
the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    
reaction.
  
If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    
the
  
extension more =
application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    
more
  
palatable, but that's =
another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| >
| > Stefan:
| >
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| >
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not =
a
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small =
thing.
| >
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    
and
  
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| >
| >
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    
used
  
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises =
the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| >
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    
as
  
| well.
| >
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    
binding
  
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    
are
  
| > probably cached =
under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| >
|
|
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C4971A.93EF1680-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8A7ODO1003609; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8A7ODDR003608; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:24:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur.microsoft.com (mail-eur.microsoft.com [213.199.128.145]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8A7OCUv003566 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:24:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:23:43 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:24:00 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D013C0E7C@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) Thread-Index: AcSWseEhpsuP987fQDqyGlKwdPwMcQAUyaHA From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Sean P. Turner" , "Tony Capel" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2004 07:23:43.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A216D20:01C49707] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i8A7ODUv003599 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Sean, I fully agree. I have no fear that these specifications will overlap since they will specify entirely different type of certificate content and will represent fully distinguishable options. /Stefan   ________________________________________ From: Sean P. Turner [mailto:turners@ieca.com] Sent: den 9 september 2004 15:30 To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) All, After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts.  spt Stefan Santesson wrote: Tony, I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you oversimplify this issue. Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of the null signed message. If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities. If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well. And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data. Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with renewed certs or multiple valid certs. Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons, revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies, etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions. The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple! I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which should be done before end of this year. There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of the current spec use the already established structure for the sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway. If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC. And I'm not the guy to lead that effort. Maybe you are? :-) Stefan Santesson Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE) -----Original Message----- From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18 To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Stefan: I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation of scope. Please bear with me. Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, and it seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do that. This is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we should make sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to the well too often ;-). To do that we need to consider what is quick and simple to do today and also where we might go. So I think this discussion now is valuable. I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made complex as you demonstrate. The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts). Those guys did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, SMTP, or whatever when they defined it. They only worried about what the CRL format was to be. In our case I propose we already have a format: a null signed message. Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be carried in a null signed message too. I suspect that if I posted a null signed message on a website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even work today (??). And frankly, if an organization is already distributing CRL's by whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to provide sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and it will also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!). The server just responds with a static null signed item. Processing on receipt is the same as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages. I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks that the only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick all the sMIMECapabilities into the cert. I think we will get a negative reaction. If it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more efficient, we have a better chance. I have also mentioned that we should make the extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it more palatable, but that's another thread.... Tony | -----Original Message----- | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | | | Tony, | | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic | sMIMECapabilities! | | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this | take off in a million directions. | | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out | how you will structure the extension referring to this data | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, | ldap, ftp. | | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to | distinguish between capabilities for different applications | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if | there might be a reason to let different entities sign | different parts of the capabilities data. | | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some | certificates gets revoked or renewed. | | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that | would be if it is.... | | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to | make a bet:-) | | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. | | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it | own project. | | /Stefan | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | > | > Stefan: | > | > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. | > | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of | > | complexity. | > | | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the | framework for | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. | > | > This does not require the server to create authenticated | data on-line, | the | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or | end entity, | or | > an | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were | put in the | > cert itself. Whoever (CA | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and | sign | > the | > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed | item is then | > stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the | sMIMECapabilities | > are | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). | > | > | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution | Specification" | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used | to | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the | issue | > of | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the | sMIMECapabilities | > and the | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). | > | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as | well. | > | > | > Tony | > | > | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the | moment. | > I | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding | even | > if | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end | systems | > is not | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to | specific | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are | > probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method | > inherently | securely | > binds | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this | is a NICE | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional | > considerations | are | > needed | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. | > | | Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i89LDdGm099294; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i89LDdhd099293; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com (smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i89LDcgB099287 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:13:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.87.161 with plain) by smtp002.bizmail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Sep 2004 21:13:37 -0000 Message-ID: <41405AE0.3050201@ieca.com> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:30:08 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Santesson , Tony Capel CC: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s) References: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: All,

After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts. 

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:
Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    
of
  
scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    
and
  
it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    
that.
  
This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    
should
  
make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    
the
  
well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    
simple to
  
do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    
Those
  
guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    
message
  
on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    
CRL's
  
by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    
provide
  
sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    
it
  
will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    
The
  
server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    
is
  
the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    
all
  
the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    
reaction.
  
If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    
the
  
extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    
more
  
palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| >
| > Stefan:
| >
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| >
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| >
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    
and
  
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| >
| >
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    
used
  
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| >
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    
as
  
| well.
| >
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    
binding
  
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    
are
  
| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| >
|
|
Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i898x3jJ045516; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i898x3Fe045515; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:59:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.bizmatica.com ([82.85.0.66]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i898wvO2045401 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alfonso.degregorio@trustedevidence.com) Received: from visible01 ([192.168.0.119]) by mail.bizmatica.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:53:45 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-01.txt From: Alfonso De Gregorio Reply-To: alfonso.degregorio@trustedevidence.com To: Russ Housley Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040907165539.03afc430@mail.binhost.com> References: <200409051705.i85H5fI12720@chandon.edelweb.fr> <6.1.2.0.2.20040907165539.03afc430@mail.binhost.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: TrustedEvidence (C&A) Message-Id: <1094716016.1576.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:46:57 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Sep 2004 08:53:45.0640 (UTC) FILETIME=[83CFDA80:01C4964A] Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At line 125 and 134: s/midnight, January/00:00:00 UTC, January/ or midnight UTC. alfonso On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 22:59, Russ Housley wrote: > Dear S/MIME WG: > > I have just sent an update of my binary time draft to the Internet-Draft > repository. It is intended to be published as an experimental RFC. Thank > you for the review that I have received thus far. The document has greatly > improved from this review. > > The document should appear in the Internet-Drafts repository in a day or > two. I look forward to a new round of comments. > > Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87KweDA067627; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:58:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87KweIm067626; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:58:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i87Kwd0r067620 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 1567 invoked by uid 0); 7 Sep 2004 20:58:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.146.191) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2004 20:58:42 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040907165539.03afc430@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:59:35 -0400 To: ietf-smime@imc.org From: Russ Housley Subject: draft-housley-binarytime-01.txt In-Reply-To: <200409051705.i85H5fI12720@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409051705.i85H5fI12720@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Dear S/MIME WG: I have just sent an update of my binary time draft to the Internet-Draft repository. It is intended to be published as an experimental RFC. Thank you for the review that I have received thus far. The document has greatly improved from this review. The document should appear in the Internet-Drafts repository in a day or two. I look forward to a new round of comments. Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87HKucN050621; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87HKuIC050620; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.175.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i87HKtl6050613 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:20:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.78.17 with plain) by smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2004 17:20:55 -0000 Message-ID: <413DECE5.4090103@ieca.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:16:21 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Santesson CC: SMIME Subject: Re: Charter Modification References: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D013960D1@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D013960D1@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Stefan,

I guess I didn't see this as a big change. I'm also not sure anybody was really suggesting a more dynamic approach just that red flags might be raised by PKIX if we assume we're going to stick it in a cert.  I personally don't think PKIX is going to care because PKIX is tring to close down.  And, I think there's only a couple of "simple" ways to distribute the attribute: in a respository or in a cert.  The repository case is already defined we're just doing the other one.  Besides, you don't have to implement it if you don't want to.

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:

This text sounds as it implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities issue.

 

I don’t oppose this change but suggest then that we change ”a specification will be developed“ to “specifications will be developed”.

 

The type of complex approaches recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of sMIMECapabilities doesn’t mix very well with the simple and direct task to document the use of the existing attribute structure as a certificate extension.

 

I therefore strongly suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent discussed expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG assigns another editor for that work.

I don’t have the time and capacity to edit that specification.

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: den 7 september 2004 13:12
To: SMIME
Subject: Re: Charter Modification

 

I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested changes.   As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.

Sean P. Turner wrote:

All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.  Please respond with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt 

 






 
 
S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
 
Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
 
 
Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>
 
Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
 
Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/
 
Description of Working Group:
 
The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.
 
The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.
 
To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.
 
CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.
 

Stike the following

 
To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.
 

And replace it with:

To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and other S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) in addition to that currently specified 

 
The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.
 
Milestones:
 
History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
 
September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
 
October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
 
December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC
 
January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix 
 
February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification
 
January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87EWh27034347; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87EWh8W034346; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i87EWgHT034338 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 17790 invoked by uid 0); 7 Sep 2004 14:32:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.217.218) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2004 14:32:41 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040907103309.07b66008@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:33:35 -0400 To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann), dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, ietf-smime@imc.org From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt In-Reply-To: References: <200409031846.i83IklIQ015817@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: So, if it were an experimental document, you would have not issues? Russ At 02:22 AM 9/5/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: >"David P. Kemp" writes: > > >There are no existing applications in this space > >In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing >need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue. >This suggests a simple solution... > >The main reason why I object to something that's mostly just a gratuitously >incompatible re-encoding of an existing field is because it's being pushed as >a standards-track document. Because of this, users will demand that it be >supported (even though they have no idea why they need it) simply because it's >a standards-track RFC, and it wouldn't have been made standards-track if there >wasn't some reason for having it even if we don't know what it is. >Implementors then have to support yet another attribute, yet another date >format, double the size of the date data in sigs because of the nead to >support both the existing and new format, act in some appropriate manner when >the two dates disagree (actually from existing experience with apps that >deliberately set inconsistent times in signed data that allows multiple time >fields, nothing ever checks this, they just pick one or the other date >arbitrarily), etc etc etc. > >Now as you say above, the demand for this to date has been zero. This >suggests that the correct track for the new time encoding is either >"Experimental" or "grab a private OID and go for it", to match the actual >demand from users. > >Russ Housley writes: > > >However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime(). > >Since they are presumably also without a RTC (thus making the inability to >convert a UTCTime moot, since there's nothing to check it against), this >wouldn't appear to be a real problem. > >(I have been informed in private mail of the existence of several C one-liners > (and at least one in Fortran, this problem has been studied for awhile) to > convert the ASN.1-style ASCII date to a binary format, so it's likely that > the additional code needed to handle binary times would entail more overhead > than a basic mktime()-equivalent). > >Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87DWZ7W028533; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:32:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87DWZIW028532; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87DWYve028511 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:32:26 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C494DF.1D4888F8" Subject: RE: Charter Modification Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:31:53 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D013960D1@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Charter Modification Thread-Index: AcSUz5j9vxUJWaetTJajam/CiFFj/wADF7GA From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Sean P. Turner" , "SMIME" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2004 13:32:26.0672 (UTC) FILETIME=[1D7F5B00:01C494DF] Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C494DF.1D4888F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This text sounds as it implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities issue. =20 I don't oppose this change but suggest then that we change "a specification will be developed" to "specifications will be developed". =20 The type of complex approaches recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of sMIMECapabilities doesn't mix very well with the simple and direct task to document the use of the existing attribute structure as a certificate extension. =20 I therefore strongly suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent discussed expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG assigns another editor for that work. I don't have the time and capacity to edit that specification. Stefan Santesson=20 Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)=20 =20 ________________________________ From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner Sent: den 7 september 2004 13:12 To: SMIME Subject: Re: Charter Modification =20 I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested changes. As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group. Sean P. Turner wrote: All, To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some are way off). Attached is the proposed modification. Please respond with any comments by Friday. Cheers, spt=20 =20 ________________________________ =20 =20 S/MIME Mail Security (smime) =20 Chair: Sean Turner =20 Blake Ramsdell =20 =20 =20 Security Area Director: Russ Housley =20 Steve Belovin =20 =20 Security Area Advisor: Russ Housley =20 =20 Mailing Lists: General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/ =20 Description of Working Group: =20 The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications. =20 The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed. =20 To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document. =20 CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent. =20 Stike the following =20 To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group. =20 And replace it with: To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and other S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) in addition to that currently specified=20 =20 The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005. =20 Milestones: =20 History Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard. Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC. Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC. Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard. Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard. Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC. Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification. Last call on X.400 transport specification. Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification. Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification. Last call on AES algorithm specification. Last call on update to MSG. First draft of update to CERT. First draft of CMS and ESS examples document. First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix. First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard. Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard. Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard. Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard. Last call on CMS and ESS examples document. Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard. Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard. First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification. Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard =20 September 04 Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension =20 October 04 Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension =20 December 04 Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC =20 January 05 Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix=20 =20 February 05 Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification =20 January 06 Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard ------_=_NextPart_001_01C494DF.1D4888F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This text sounds = as it implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities = issue.

 =

I don’t = oppose this change but suggest then that we change ”a specification will be developed“ to “specifications will be = developed”.

 =

The type of = complex approaches recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of = sMIMECapabilities doesn’t mix very well with the simple and direct task to document = the use of the existing attribute structure as a certificate = extension.

 =

I therefore = strongly suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent = discussed expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG = assigns another editor for that work.

I don’t = have the time and capacity to edit that = specification.

Stefan = Santesson
Microsoft = Security Center of = Excellence = (SCOE)
 

From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: den 7 september = 2004 13:12
To: SMIME
Subject: Re: Charter = Modification

 

I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ = with Tony's suggested changes.   As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.

Sean P. Turner wrote:

All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the = working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some = are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.  Please respond = with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt 

 






 
 
S/MIME Mail Security =
(smime)
 
Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com><=
/span>
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
 
 
Security Area =
Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>
 
Security Area =
Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
 
Mailing =
Lists:
     General Discussion: =
ietf-smime@imc.org
     To =
Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org=

     =
Archive:           =
; http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/
 
Description of Working =
Group:
 
The S/MIME Working Group has completed a =
series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 =
specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of =
"mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current =
efforts update and build upon these base =
specifications.
 
The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC =
3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more =
than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each =
algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. =
Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will =
be developed.
 
To aid implementers, documents containing =
example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the =
examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the =
Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) =
document.
 
CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, =
permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. =
Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to =
multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) =
areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be =
algorithm independent.
 

Stike the following

 
To aid initial determination of recipient's =
cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing =
S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates =
based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX =
Working Group.
 

And replace it with:

To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and = other S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) = in addition to that currently specified 

 
The working group will perform necessary =
interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to =
Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This =
profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME =
specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress =
by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start =
progressing to Draft Standard in =
2005.
 
Milestones:
 
History
     Submit CMS =
compressed data content type a Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit security =
label usage specification as Informational =
RFC.
     Submit elliptic =
curve algorithm specification as Informational =
RFC.
     Submit update to CMS =
as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS =
Algorithms as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap =
algorithm description as Informational =
RFC.
     Last call on X.400 =
CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 =
transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC =
key wrap description =
specification.
     Last call on RSA =
OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES =
algorithm specification.
     Last call on update =
to MSG.
     First draft of =
update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS =
and ESS examples document.
     First draft of =
S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability =
matrix.
     First draft of RSA =
PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key =
distribution as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap =
description as Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP =
algorithm specification as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm =
specification as Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS =
wrapper specification as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Submit X.400 =
transport as a Proposed =
Standard.
     Last call on CMS and =
ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to =
CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG =
as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA =
KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS =
algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS =
algorithm specification as Proposed =
Standard
 
September =
04
     Submit CMS and ESS =
examples document as Informational =
RFC
     First draft of =
S/MIME Capabilities Certificate =
Extension
 
October =
04
     Working Group Last =
Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate =
Extension
 
December =
04
     Submit S/MIME =
Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational =
RFC
 
January =
05
     Final S/MIME version =
3.1 interoperability matrix 
 
February =
05
     Request advancement =
of CMS Algorithms to Draft =
Standard
     Request advancement =
of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement =
of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement =
of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement =
of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM =
algorithm specification
 
January =
06
     Submit RSA KEM =
algorithm specification as Proposed =
Standard
------_=_NextPart_001_01C494DF.1D4888F8-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87BZQ22015460; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87BZQTi015459; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.175.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i87BZPlR015450 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:35:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.78.17 with plain) by smtp006.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2004 11:35:26 -0000 Message-ID: <413D9BFE.9090100@ieca.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:31:10 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Housley, Russ" , SMIME Subject: [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000806030301030709020101" Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000806030301030709020101 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ,

The S/MIME examples ID has passed working group last call.  We'd like to move it IETF Last Call.

Cheers,

spt

-------- Original Message --------

Please refer all questions, opinions or additional feedback to:
Service Dept
9420 Reseda Blvd #133
Northridge, CA 91324
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:15:46 -0400
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ietf-smime@imc.org 


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Examples of S/MIME Messages
	Author(s)	: P. Hoffman
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt
	Pages		: 8
	Date		: 2004-8-25
	
This document gives examples of message bodies formatted using S/MIME.
Specifically, it has examples of Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)
objects and S/MIME messages (including the MIME formatting).
It includes examples of many common CMS formats. The purpose of this document is to help increase interoperability for S/MIME and other protocols that rely on CMS.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt

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Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
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type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt".

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or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


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Send a message to:
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In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt".
	
NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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--------------000806030301030709020101 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-8-25145614.I-D@ietf.org> --------------000806030301030709020101-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87BFvXb012945; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i87BFvBx012943; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp004.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp004.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.175.81]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i87BFvZI012936 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from turners@ieca.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ieca.com) (turners@ieca.com@70.17.78.17 with plain) by smtp004.bizmail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 2004 11:15:56 -0000 Message-ID: <413D976C.1030204@ieca.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:11:40 -0400 From: "Sean P. Turner" Organization: IECA, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SMIME Subject: Re: Charter Modification References: <4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com> In-Reply-To: <4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested changes.   As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.

Sean P. Turner wrote:
All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.  Please respond with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt 


S/MIME Mail Security (smime)

Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>


Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>

Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.

The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.

To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.

CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.
Stike the following
To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.
And replace it with:

To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and other S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) in addition to that currently specified 
The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.

Milestones:

History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard

September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC

January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix 

February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification

January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i85HCsYp005674; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i85HCs9j005673; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i85HCqtw005665 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:12:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i85H5gN18256; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:05:42 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:05:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i85H5fI12720; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:05:41 +0200 (MEST) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:05:41 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409051705.i85H5fI12720@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: ietf-smime@imc.org, dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > You read past the part about this being useful for CMS but not for > S/MIME. The situations where saving a few bytes is useful occur when > 1) the objects being signed are small, 2) signature values are small > (i.e. DSA/ECDSA, not RSA), and 3) encoding overhead is small (i.e. PER, > not BER/DER). There are no existing applications in this space, and > thus no backwards compatibilty issues. But CMS and a newly defined > attribute can be applied to future applications without having any > impact on existing apps. I don't think we are at a point to discuss whether some piece of additional data creates or does not create in which area. - The proposed indication presents information that is already being carried in another indication. - The proposed indication doesn't provide anything new. - No argument of a concrete need has been given. - All arguments concerning complexity of treatment are extreemly weak even without comparing to what has to be done already for CMS SignedData - If one assumes the availability of a PER coder/decoder and a DER signature creation/validation at the same time, then complexity is even less an argument. - If someone has problems with embedded systems that maybe some very simple subset of BER and a much more limited syntax than SignedData could be used, why stay with CMS at all? - If you want to save data, then code all relevant information inside data, and not within attributes. - unless there is an existing example for that use, included as an example inside the text, I don't think that we are even at an experimental state. - The proposition below about an alternative way does not mean at all that I think that the whole concept is useful at all, or in other words, I just made a joke. > > The other Peter's suggestion: > > Time ::= CHOICE { > utcTime UTCTime, > generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, > epochSeconds INTEGER} > > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an > unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. I guess you are right with your observation about potential problems (cf my last point above). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i85Ge3Dm001615; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:40:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i85Ge3D8001614; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:40:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i85Gdtkd001562 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:39:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i85GdwN18113; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:39:58 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:39:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i85GduK12691; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:39:56 +0200 (MEST) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:39:56 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409051639.i85GduK12691@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > Thanks for this new information. However, i am aware of smartcard > environments without mktime(). Who needs mktime to convert an Z-zone Generalizedtime or UTCTime to some binary value? The example that I have shown used gmtime, this is certainly not a complex function, it is just a small real thing. > > Russ > > At 12:14 AM 9/3/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: > >Russ Housley writes: > > > > >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are > > >using here. > > > >As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded > >systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid. I've got > >code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have > >mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once > >you've read it, but you can at least read it). I've never encountered a > >system where reading a UTCTime is a problem. > > > >Peter. > > > >[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-). > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i857K3KN066149; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 00:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i857K35D066148; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 00:20:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.13]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i857JxZG066056 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 00:20:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101F2341B2 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:20:05 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03822-12 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:20:04 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDFAC3418D for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:20:04 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2473774D for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:20:04 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C3rJq-0005kE-00 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 19:20:10 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Message-Id: Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 19:20:10 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I wrote: >In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing >need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue. >This suggests a simple solution... Thinking about this a bit more, if the goal is to save space, why not combine all of the mandatory attributes into a single meta-attribute: compactAttributes ::= SEQUENCE { signingTime GeneralisedTime, contentType OBJECT IDENTIFIER, messageDigest OCTET STRING } This would save many, many times as much space as binaryTime, and considerably simplify decoding, since there's only one meta-attribute that contains all of the signing attributes, so you eliminate all of the extra OIDs and several layers of encoding wrappers around the invidual attributes. (And I'd still have this as Experimental, pending any actual user demand for it). Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i856MJ6N042432; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 23:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i856MJdI042431; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 23:22:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (chico.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i856Lv0I042246 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 23:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CDCD34073; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:22:04 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23701-17; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:22:04 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E49341F0; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:21:58 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61CC3774D; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:21:57 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C3qPb-0005fn-00; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 18:22:03 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt In-Reply-To: <200409031846.i83IklIQ015817@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 18:22:03 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: "David P. Kemp" writes: >There are no existing applications in this space In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue. This suggests a simple solution... The main reason why I object to something that's mostly just a gratuitously incompatible re-encoding of an existing field is because it's being pushed as a standards-track document. Because of this, users will demand that it be supported (even though they have no idea why they need it) simply because it's a standards-track RFC, and it wouldn't have been made standards-track if there wasn't some reason for having it even if we don't know what it is. Implementors then have to support yet another attribute, yet another date format, double the size of the date data in sigs because of the nead to support both the existing and new format, act in some appropriate manner when the two dates disagree (actually from existing experience with apps that deliberately set inconsistent times in signed data that allows multiple time fields, nothing ever checks this, they just pick one or the other date arbitrarily), etc etc etc. Now as you say above, the demand for this to date has been zero. This suggests that the correct track for the new time encoding is either "Experimental" or "grab a private OID and go for it", to match the actual demand from users. Russ Housley writes: >However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime(). Since they are presumably also without a RTC (thus making the inability to convert a UTCTime moot, since there's nothing to check it against), this wouldn't appear to be a real problem. (I have been informed in private mail of the existence of several C one-liners (and at least one in Fortran, this problem has been studied for awhile) to convert the ASN.1-style ASCII date to a binary format, so it's likely that the additional code needed to handle binary times would entail more overhead than a basic mktime()-equivalent). Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i84GK0cI047321; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:20:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i84GK0qn047320; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i84GJhxN047289 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:19:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 4991 invoked by uid 0); 4 Sep 2004 16:19:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.141.83) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 2004 16:19:51 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040904121945.0861fbf8@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:20:37 -0400 To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann), Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040902085232.05413008@mail.binhost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks for this new information. However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime(). Russ At 12:14 AM 9/3/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: >Russ Housley writes: > > >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are > >using here. > >As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded >systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid. I've got >code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have >mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once >you've read it, but you can at least read it). I've never encountered a >system where reading a UTCTime is a problem. > >Peter. > >[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8408dqA075082; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8408dDk075081; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8408cge075068 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:08:34 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:08:18 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSR8wMXu+ZzBP4XQMCLDGxXykExAAAGnoUA From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Tony Capel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Sep 2004 00:08:34.0935 (UTC) FILETIME=[51E71870:01C49213] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i8408dge075076 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tony, I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you oversimplify this issue. Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of the null signed message. If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities. If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well. And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data. Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with renewed certs or multiple valid certs. Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons, revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies, etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions. The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple! I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which should be done before end of this year. There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of the current spec use the already established structure for the sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway. If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC. And I'm not the guy to lead that effort. Maybe you are? :-) Stefan Santesson Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE) > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18 > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan: > > I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation of > scope. > Please bear with me. > > Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, and > it > seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do that. > This > is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we should > make > sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to the > well > too often ;-). To do that we need to consider what is quick and simple to > do > today and also where we might go. So I think this discussion now is > valuable. > > I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made > complex as > you demonstrate. > > The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts). Those > guys > did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, > SMTP, or > whatever when they defined it. They only worried about what the CRL > format was > to be. In our case I propose we already have a format: a null signed > message. > Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be > carried in a > null signed message too. I suspect that if I posted a null signed message > on a > website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even > work > today (??). And frankly, if an organization is already distributing CRL's > by > whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to provide > sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and it > will > also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!). The > server > just responds with a static null signed item. Processing on receipt is > the same > as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages. > > > I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks > that the > only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick all > the > sMIMECapabilities into the cert. I think we will get a negative reaction. > If > it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more > efficient, > we have a better chance. I have also mentioned that we should make the > extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it more > palatable, but that's another thread.... > > Tony > > > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] > | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM > | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org > | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > | > | > | Tony, > | > | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic > | sMIMECapabilities! > | > | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this > | take off in a million directions. > | > | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and > | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures > | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out > | how you will structure the extension referring to this data > | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and > | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, > | ldap, ftp. > | > | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to > | distinguish between capabilities for different applications > | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why > | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if > | there might be a reason to let different entities sign > | different parts of the capabilities data. > | > | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates > | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we > | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some > | certificates gets revoked or renewed. > | > | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute > | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that > | would be if it is.... > | > | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to > | make a bet:-) > | > | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and > | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. > | > | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated > | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it > | own project. > | > | /Stefan > | > | > -----Original Message----- > | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 > | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org > | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > | > > | > Stefan: > | > > | > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. > | > > | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a > | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of > | > | complexity. > | > | > | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce > | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the > | framework for > | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. > | > > | > This does not require the server to create authenticated > | data on-line, > | the > | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or > | end entity, > | or > | > an > | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in > | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were > | put in the > | > cert itself. Whoever (CA > | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and > | sign > | > the > | > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed > | item is then > | > stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the > | sMIMECapabilities > | > are > | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). > | > > | > > | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution > | Specification" > | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used > | to > | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the > | issue > | > of > | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the > | sMIMECapabilities > | > and the > | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between > | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). > | > > | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as > | well. > | > > | > > | > Tony > | > > | > > | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the > | moment. > | > I > | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding > | even > | > if > | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end > | systems > | > is not > | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to > | specific > | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are > | > probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method > | > inherently > | securely > | > binds > | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this > | is a NICE > | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional > | > considerations > | are > | > needed > | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. > | > > | > | > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83KGQwt054082; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83KGQa0054081; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83KGQsb054075 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail4.magma.ca (mail4.magma.ca [206.191.0.222]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i83KGR0N013972; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:16:28 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail4.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i83KGHca031017; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:16:27 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: "'Stefan Santesson'" , Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:18:28 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c491f3$308883f0$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C0F@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83KGQsb054076 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Stefan: I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation of scope. Please bear with me. Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, and it seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do that. This is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we should make sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to the well too often ;-). To do that we need to consider what is quick and simple to do today and also where we might go. So I think this discussion now is valuable. I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made complex as you demonstrate. The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts). Those guys did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, SMTP, or whatever when they defined it. They only worried about what the CRL format was to be. In our case I propose we already have a format: a null signed message. Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be carried in a null signed message too. I suspect that if I posted a null signed message on a website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even work today (??). And frankly, if an organization is already distributing CRL's by whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to provide sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and it will also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!). The server just responds with a static null signed item. Processing on receipt is the same as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages. I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks that the only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick all the sMIMECapabilities into the cert. I think we will get a negative reaction. If it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more efficient, we have a better chance. I have also mentioned that we should make the extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it more palatable, but that's another thread.... Tony | -----Original Message----- | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | | | Tony, | | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic | sMIMECapabilities! | | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this | take off in a million directions. | | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out | how you will structure the extension referring to this data | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, | ldap, ftp. | | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to | distinguish between capabilities for different applications | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if | there might be a reason to let different entities sign | different parts of the capabilities data. | | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some | certificates gets revoked or renewed. | | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that | would be if it is.... | | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to | make a bet:-) | | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. | | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it | own project. | | /Stefan | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | > | > Stefan: | > | > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. | > | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of | > | complexity. | > | | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the | framework for | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. | > | > This does not require the server to create authenticated | data on-line, | the | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or | end entity, | or | > an | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were | put in the | > cert itself. Whoever (CA | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and | sign | > the | > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed | item is then | > stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the | sMIMECapabilities | > are | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). | > | > | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution | Specification" | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used | to | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the | issue | > of | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the | sMIMECapabilities | > and the | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). | > | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as | well. | > | > | > Tony | > | > | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the | moment. | > I | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding | even | > if | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end | systems | > is not | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to | specific | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are | > probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method | > inherently | securely | > binds | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this | is a NICE | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional | > considerations | are | > needed | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. | > | | Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Ir7JO047158; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:53:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83Ir7Yv047157; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:53:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from stingray.missi.ncsc.mil (stingray.missi.ncsc.mil [144.51.50.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83IpItn047067 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:51:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil) Message-ID: <200409031846.i83IklIQ015817@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 14:51:05 -0400 From: "David P. Kemp" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2004 18:51:05.0711 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7AE2FF0:01C491E6] Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter Gutmann wrote: >As Peter Sylvester has pointed out, in order to be compatible with existing >apps, you'd need to include *both* attributes (the TLS WG has just had a debate >about the 10-year old obsolete known-insecure SSLv2 protocol and why virtually >everything still has to support it by default for backwards-compatibility, so >you'll never get rid of the existing signing time). As a result, you won't save >a few bytes in the time encoding, you'll double the space through having to use >two different formats. > You read past the part about this being useful for CMS but not for S/MIME. The situations where saving a few bytes is useful occur when 1) the objects being signed are small, 2) signature values are small (i.e. DSA/ECDSA, not RSA), and 3) encoding overhead is small (i.e. PER, not BER/DER). There are no existing applications in this space, and thus no backwards compatibilty issues. But CMS and a newly defined attribute can be applied to future applications without having any impact on existing apps. The other Peter's suggestion: Time ::= CHOICE { utcTime UTCTime, generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, epochSeconds INTEGER} is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an unrecognized attribute. To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications. Dave Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83HvrH4043043; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83Hvr2g043042; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur.microsoft.com (mail-eur.microsoft.com [213.199.128.145]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Hvpdd043021 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:57:54 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:57:35 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C0F@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSRzDce3802fL7rSkCKSBFM9HxmtAAEM65A From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Tony Capel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2004 17:57:54.0903 (UTC) FILETIME=[89CF8670:01C491DF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83Hvqdd043035 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tony, Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic sMIMECapabilities! Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this take off in a million directions. First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out how you will structure the extension referring to this data in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, ldap, ftp. Then we have already heard voices that we might need to distinguish between capabilities for different applications and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why not then argue about how this data should be signed and if there might be a reason to let different entities sign different parts of the capabilities data. Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some certificates gets revoked or renewed. And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that would be if it is.... I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to make a bet:-) What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure. If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it own project. /Stefan > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42 > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan: > > Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. > > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however > | not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication > | of complexity. > | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you > | introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify > | the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That > | is NOT a small thing. > > This does not require the server to create authenticated data on-line, the > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or end entity, or > an > attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in > authentication > framework complexity than if this data were put in the cert itself. > Whoever (CA > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and sign > the > null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed item is then > stored in > whatever server is used. It is only changed when the sMIMECapabilities > are > changed (or when the signing keys change of course). > > > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution Specification" > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used to > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the issue > of > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the sMIMECapabilities > and the > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). > > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as well. > > > Tony > > > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the moment. > I > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding even > if > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end systems > is not > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to specific > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are > probably > cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method inherently securely > binds > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this is a NICE > THING, but > I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional considerations are > needed > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Fdnhl030970; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83FdnZH030969; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.magma.ca (mx2.magma.ca [206.191.0.250]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Fdn07030963 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.214]) by mx2.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i83Fdpha008736; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:39:52 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i83FdfTx024359; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:39:51 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: "'Stefan Santesson'" , Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:41:53 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c491cc$8cacd770$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359904@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83Fdn07030964 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Stefan: Thanks. I don't think this is such a big suggestion. | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however | not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication | of complexity. | | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you | introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify | the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That | is NOT a small thing. This does not require the server to create authenticated data on-line, the returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or end entity, or an attribute cert as suggested by Denis). There is no difference in authentication framework complexity than if this data were put in the cert itself. Whoever (CA or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and sign the null message or attribute cert at that time. This fixed item is then stored in whatever server is used. It is only changed when the sMIMECapabilities are changed (or when the signing keys change of course). I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution Specification" draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used to distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities. It also raises the issue of whether there needs to be a secure binding between the sMIMECapabilities and the specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName). A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as well. Tony * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the moment. I don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding even if they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end systems is not retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to specific cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair). sMIMECapabilities are probably cached under subjectName (???). Your proposed method inherently securely binds the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this is a NICE THING, but I am not sure it is needed. If it is, then additional considerations are needed for indirect methods if they are added as suggested. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83ESmGl024712; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83ESmuU024711; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:28:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83ESlsm024700 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:28:42 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:28:35 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359BD2@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSRvXhml1kdaWrRSL60kKZ3lo2h+wAACrjQ From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Denis Pinkas" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2004 14:28:42.0244 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FD7C440:01C491C2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83ESmsm024706 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Denis, In-line; > -----Original Message----- > From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net] > Sent: den 3 september 2004 15:51 > To: Stefan Santesson > Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan, > > > Denis, > > > > You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as: > > > > 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate > > to help indicate capabilities of the subject > > > > 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put > > capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much > > revocation and re-issuance of certificates. > > > > 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to > > dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you > > suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope. > > This is a nice summary. > [Stefan] Thanks, it makes the discussion easier :-) > > My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind > > of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more > > complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to > > complete (my guess). > > It is your guess. I would have a different guess. :-) [Stefan] Of course this is a guess. But it is based on experience. It is at least more complex than the logotype extension which took over 2 years to complete :-) > > > That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple > > stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current > > sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that > > works for the majority of cases. > > It may work nicely in small environnements. > [Stefan] This works very well also in large organizations. And I know this for a fact since I have it in my own S/MIME certificate and we are 50.000 users. It has been in use for a long time. It has proven to be very useful and it has never caused any problems of the kind you mention. You can see it for your self in my certificate below: (cut out and save as a file with .cer extension) -----BEGIN CERTIFICATE----- MIIFwzCCBKugAwIBAgIKE/lfpwABAAFNjjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADAvMS0wKwYD VQQDEyRNaWNyb3NvZnQgSW50cmFuZXQgTGV2ZWwgMiBVc2VyIENBIDIwHhcNMDQw NTEzMDk0MTI2WhcNMDUwNTEzMDk0MTI2WjCBiTETMBEGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWA2Nv bTEZMBcGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWCW1pY3Jvc29mdDEUMBIGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWBGNv cnAxFjAUBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgZldXJvcGUxDjAMBgNVBAMTBVVzZXJzMRkwFwYD VQQDExBTdGVmYW4gU2FudGVzc29uMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKB gQDJ0aSfbuPMZOP/liMfopMXIUtaOmClzXCulOhfp3V6CcimCmGbvNzfGYfirmE3 0rH/+uT6e/CB5lo4rXFLqufvDV++bEWQJsIIS6KG4Bn0Cib1G4ebp8wrED2oJDx3 E2WeI40/jQALjcyp3OYmrNX4535Nq9SOMglY2/W3lr+E+QIDAQABo4IDCDCCAwQw CwYDVR0PBAQDAgeAMEQGCSqGSIb3DQEJDwQ3MDUwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA4G CCqGSIb3DQMEAgIAgDAHBgUrDgMCBzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzArBgNVHSUEJDAiBgor BgEEAYI3KgIBBgorBgEEAYI3FAICBggrBgEFBQcDAjA/BgkrBgEEAYI3FQcEMjAw BigrBgEEAYI3FQiDz4lNrfIChaGfDIL6yn2B4ft0gU+J9vG2YYHbk8USAgFkAgEM MDcGCSsGAQQBgjcVCgQqMCgwDAYKKwYBBAGCNyoCATAMBgorBgEEAYI3FAICMAoG CCsGAQUFBwMCMDAGA1UdEQQpMCegJQYKKwYBBAGCNxQCA6AXDBVzdGVmYW5zQG1p Y3Jvc29mdC5jb20wHQYDVR0OBBYEFPCxFTnSeoK5luwmPmXdS4u+EeEcMB8GA1Ud IwQYMBaAFJPA18nU2Ss3YUqCdd0M/GqnUpx1MIHBBgNVHR8EgbkwgbYwgbOggbCg ga2GSmh0dHA6Ly9jb3JwcGtpL2NybC9NaWNyb3NvZnQlMjBJbnRyYW5ldCUyMExl dmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSkuY3Jshl9odHRwOi8vY3JsLm1pY3Jv c29mdC5jb20vcGtpL21zY29ycC9jcmwvTWljcm9zb2Z0JTIwSW50cmFuZXQlMjBM ZXZlbCUyMDIlMjBVc2VyJTIwQ0ElMjAyKDEpLmNybDCB0QYIKwYBBQUHAQEEgcQw gcEwVgYIKwYBBQUHMAKGSmh0dHA6Ly9jb3JwcGtpL2FpYS9NaWNyb3NvZnQlMjBJ bnRyYW5ldCUyMExldmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSkuY3J0MGcGCCsG AQUFBzAChltodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1pY3Jvc29mdC5jb20vcGtpL21zY29ycC9NaWNy b3NvZnQlMjBJbnRyYW5ldCUyMExldmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSku Y3J0MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4IBAQCifqY1BQk7if7RnSHV8545pZkSKKn5QPjQ jIcc2JwISRu57Y+B9DOTdtI3ECEh73smz5DDUtTYcfebE7KC5Vt3J0zON8XWiAFl lPwxEsWdl+/XX2UkOZSOwZ1GIa/BtUOR76P9kRuxvRcfaejriHYupbsxHq2CuT6d fA32iWi/uAu6r9QzR9BPuYi4ht97s1xJ3UproChH+aPFXfPyyFNedkgVdI6vOV0J yZSm9tXBuMa1IP4WNjDFnz8j3YXbMmK8x225vqW308mtFtowbIHHcpVjrigMqpDm MSwdE0UK3hjIllvmAMEfVX9Y5ixrBQFc9oW6tkoFC1/IVOoID0tJ -----END CERTIFICATE----- > However, there is currently insufficient text in the security > considerations > section to highlight the need of revocation, the document is using the > word > renew: > > Certification Authorities should therefore *renew* a certificate > including S/MIME Capabilities, if the subjects cryptographic > capabilities changes in a way that is no longer compatible with the > current certificate. > > The security considerations section should mention that: > > 1) this extension is "adequate", if the same key is not used with > other encryption applications (and explain why), > > 2) dynamic references would then be another solution to this problem. > [Stefan] Thanks for the valuable input. I have no problem updating and clarifying the security considerations section. I'm however not sure I understand what you mean by 1) but I'm positive that we can sort it out. I definitely agree to 2) > Denis > > > My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task > > that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG > > whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to > > sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context > > of another new work item with another editor. > > > > /Stefan > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net] > >>Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05 > >>To: Stefan Santesson > >>Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org > >>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > >> > >>Stefan, > >> > >>I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment. > >> > >> > >>>Stefan: > >>> > >>>Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was > >> > > optional > > > >>and > >> > >>>need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also > >> > > understand > > > >>your > >> > >>>reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... > >>> > >>>I was trying to make two main points: > >>> > >>>1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide > >> > >>sMIMECapabilities: by > >> > >>>inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable > >> > > to > > > >>add the > >> > >>>ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be > >> > > obtained > > > >>(allow > >> > >>>dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these > >> > >>methods > >> > >>>could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the > >> > > certs. > > > >>I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the > >>certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with > > > > other > > > >>applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these > >>applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key > >>certificate. > >>Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue. > >> > >>It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a > > > > pointer > > > >>to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, > >>marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...) > >> > >> > >>>2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified > >> > > should > > > >>ideally > >> > >>>be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods > >> > >>available even > >> > >>>if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as > >> > > well > > > >>(and this > >> > >>>was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + > >> > > XKMS > > > >>might be > >> > >>>included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is > >> > > that > > > >>in many > >> > >>>cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and > >> > > path > > > >>as well > >> > >>>(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous > >> > > e- > > > >>mail), and > >> > >>>we should minimize the proliferation of methods. > >>> > >>> > >>>The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an > >> > >>enterprise > >> > >>>updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the > >> > >>sMIMECapabilities > >> > >>>information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this > >> > > is a > > > >>VERY > >> > >>>big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" > >> > >>revocation/renewal > >> > >>>to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, > >> > >>doing so > >> > >>>leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs > >> > > and > > > >>>differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the > >> > >>sMIMECapabilities > >> > >>>change has a security impact...) > >>> > >>>By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information > >> > > itself > > > >>is no > >> > >>>longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. > >> > >>Yes. This is the main idea. > >> > >>Of course the next question is how to make sure that the > > > > sMIMECapabilities > > > >>placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a > >>certificate > >>indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities > > > > Distribution > > > >>Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the > >>certificate, but does not need to be so. > >> > >>The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a > > > > special > > > >>kind > >>of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message. > >> > >>Denis > >> > >> > To take your point about > >> > >>>keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS > >> > >>message signed > >> > >>>by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for > >> > > the > > > >>>enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point > >> > > to a > > > >>DNS SRV > >> > >>>for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the > >> > >>originating > >> > >>>enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may > >> > > be an > > > >>issue > >> > >>>about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the > >> > > cert > > > >>- this > >> > >>>is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. > >>> > >>>Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated > >> > > version > > > >>of Jim's > >> > >>>(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not > >> > > be > > > >>ideal?? > >> > >>>Tony > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83DrvEw022396; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83DrvSY022395; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from odin2.bull.net (odin2.bull.net [192.90.70.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83Drssj022385 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:53:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Denis.Pinkas@bull.net) Received: from clbull.frcl.bull.fr (IDENT:root@clbull.frcl.bull.fr [129.182.8.31]) by odin2.bull.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA40432; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:04:51 +0200 Received: from bull.net (frcls4013.frcl.bull.fr [129.182.108.120]) by clbull.frcl.bull.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32614; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:44:13 +0200 Message-ID: <413876C7.7070804@bull.net> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:51:04 +0200 From: Denis Pinkas Organization: Bull SA. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Santesson CC: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt References: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359B1C@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Stefan, > Denis, > > You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as: > > 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate > to help indicate capabilities of the subject > > 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put > capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much > revocation and re-issuance of certificates. > > 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to > dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you > suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope. This is a nice summary. > My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind > of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more > complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to > complete (my guess). It is your guess. I would have a different guess. :-) > That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple > stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current > sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that > works for the majority of cases. It may work nicely in small environnements. However, there is currently insufficient text in the security considerations section to highlight the need of revocation, the document is using the word renew: Certification Authorities should therefore *renew* a certificate including S/MIME Capabilities, if the subjects cryptographic capabilities changes in a way that is no longer compatible with the current certificate. The security considerations section should mention that: 1) this extension is "adequate", if the same key is not used with other encryption applications (and explain why), 2) dynamic references would then be another solution to this problem. Denis > My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task > that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG > whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to > sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context > of another new work item with another editor. > > /Stefan > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net] >>Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05 >>To: Stefan Santesson >>Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org >>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt >> >>Stefan, >> >>I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment. >> >> >>>Stefan: >>> >>>Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was >> > optional > >>and >> >>>need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also >> > understand > >>your >> >>>reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... >>> >>>I was trying to make two main points: >>> >>>1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide >> >>sMIMECapabilities: by >> >>>inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable >> > to > >>add the >> >>>ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be >> > obtained > >>(allow >> >>>dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these >> >>methods >> >>>could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the >> > certs. > >>I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the >>certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with > > other > >>applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these >>applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key >>certificate. >>Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue. >> >>It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a > > pointer > >>to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, >>marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...) >> >> >>>2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified >> > should > >>ideally >> >>>be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods >> >>available even >> >>>if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as >> > well > >>(and this >> >>>was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + >> > XKMS > >>might be >> >>>included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is >> > that > >>in many >> >>>cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and >> > path > >>as well >> >>>(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous >> > e- > >>mail), and >> >>>we should minimize the proliferation of methods. >>> >>> >>>The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an >> >>enterprise >> >>>updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the >> >>sMIMECapabilities >> >>>information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this >> > is a > >>VERY >> >>>big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" >> >>revocation/renewal >> >>>to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, >> >>doing so >> >>>leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs >> > and > >>>differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the >> >>sMIMECapabilities >> >>>change has a security impact...) >>> >>>By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information >> > itself > >>is no >> >>>longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. >> >>Yes. This is the main idea. >> >>Of course the next question is how to make sure that the > > sMIMECapabilities > >>placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a >>certificate >>indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities > > Distribution > >>Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the >>certificate, but does not need to be so. >> >>The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a > > special > >>kind >>of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message. >> >>Denis >> >> > To take your point about >> >>>keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS >> >>message signed >> >>>by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for >> > the > >>>enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point >> > to a > >>DNS SRV >> >>>for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the >> >>originating >> >>>enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may >> > be an > >>issue >> >>>about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the >> > cert > >>- this >> >>>is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. >>> >>>Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated >> > version > >>of Jim's >> >>>(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not >> > be > >>ideal?? >> >>>Tony >>> >>> >>> >> > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83CF7V9013117; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i83CF719013116; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:15:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83CF4R5013087 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:15:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:14:59 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:15:02 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359B1C@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSRlZ2s45pVQhzeRzi0fNmKe6SpOwADbE0g From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Denis Pinkas" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2004 12:14:59.0716 (UTC) FILETIME=[A20B2440:01C491AF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i83CF5R5013111 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Denis, You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as: 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate to help indicate capabilities of the subject 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much revocation and re-issuance of certificates. 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope. My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to complete (my guess). That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that works for the majority of cases. My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context of another new work item with another editor. /Stefan > -----Original Message----- > From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net] > Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05 > To: Stefan Santesson > Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan, > > I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment. > > > Stefan: > > > > Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was optional > and > > need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also understand > your > > reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... > > > > I was trying to make two main points: > > > > 1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide > sMIMECapabilities: by > > inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable to > add the > > ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained > (allow > > dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these > methods > > could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs. > > I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the > certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with other > applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these > applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key > certificate. > Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue. > > It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a pointer > to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, > marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...) > > > 2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should > ideally > > be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods > available even > > if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well > (and this > > was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS > might be > > included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is that > in many > > cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path > as well > > (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e- > mail), and > > we should minimize the proliferation of methods. > > > > > > The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an > enterprise > > updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the > sMIMECapabilities > > information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a > VERY > > big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" > revocation/renewal > > to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, > doing so > > leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and > > differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the > sMIMECapabilities > > change has a security impact...) > > > > By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself > is no > > longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. > > Yes. This is the main idea. > > Of course the next question is how to make sure that the sMIMECapabilities > placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a > certificate > indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities Distribution > Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the > certificate, but does not need to be so. > > The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a special > kind > of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message. > > Denis > > > To take your point about > > keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS > message signed > > by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the > > enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a > DNS SRV > > for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the > originating > > enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an > issue > > about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert > - this > > is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. > > > > Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version > of Jim's > > (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be > ideal?? > > > > Tony > > > > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8397u4K069405; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8397ub2069404; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from odin2.bull.net (odin2.bull.net [192.90.70.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8397rQI069311 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Denis.Pinkas@bull.net) Received: from clbull.frcl.bull.fr (IDENT:root@clbull.frcl.bull.fr [129.182.8.31]) by odin2.bull.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA40094; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:18:46 +0200 Received: from bull.net (frcls4013.frcl.bull.fr [129.182.108.120]) by clbull.frcl.bull.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29835; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:58:09 +0200 Message-ID: <413833BC.80808@bull.net> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:05:00 +0200 From: Denis Pinkas Organization: Bull SA. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'Stefan Santesson'" CC: ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt References: <000e01c4910d$858bf1c0$01b5a8c0@tony> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Stefan, I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment. > Stefan: > > Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was optional and > need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also understand your > reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... > > I was trying to make two main points: > > 1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide sMIMECapabilities: by > inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable to add the > ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained (allow > dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these methods > could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs. I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with other applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key certificate. Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue. It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a pointer to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...) > 2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should ideally > be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available even > if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well (and this > was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS might be > included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is that in many > cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as well > (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-mail), and > we should minimize the proliferation of methods. > > > The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an enterprise > updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the sMIMECapabilities > information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a VERY > big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" revocation/renewal > to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing so > leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and > differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the sMIMECapabilities > change has a security impact...) > > By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself is no > longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. Yes. This is the main idea. Of course the next question is how to make sure that the sMIMECapabilities placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a certificate indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities Distribution Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the certificate, but does not need to be so. The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a special kind of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message. Denis > To take your point about > keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message signed > by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the > enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a DNS SRV > for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the originating > enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an issue > about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - this > is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. > > Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of Jim's > (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be ideal?? > > Tony > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i834EC2x062720; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i834ECoj062719; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i834EBn9062707 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0323340E3; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:13 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24286-17; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:13 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B38A33EDF; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:12 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB543774C; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:12 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C35Sr-0003tj-00; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:14:17 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040902085232.05413008@mail.binhost.com> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:14:17 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ Housley writes: >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are >using here. As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid. I've got code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once you've read it, but you can at least read it). I've never encountered a system where reading a UTCTime is a problem. Peter. [0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8349xxA062532; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i8349xei062531; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8349pJu062518 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A4334661; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:09:50 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21775-12; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:09:50 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E33834647; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:09:48 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE28A3774C; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:09:47 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C35Oa-0003tS-00; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:09:52 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409011832.i81IWDIQ004178@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:09:52 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: "David P. Kemp" writes: >The one sentence omitted from what you quote below states that it DOES go beyond >2038. Yeah, sorry, it was late at night and I read through it very quickly. >The reason for a binary attribute in the first place is primarily space >efficiency. As Peter Sylvester has pointed out, in order to be compatible with existing apps, you'd need to include *both* attributes (the TLS WG has just had a debate about the 10-year old obsolete known-insecure SSLv2 protocol and why virtually everything still has to support it by default for backwards-compatibility, so you'll never get rid of the existing signing time). As a result, you won't save a few bytes in the time encoding, you'll double the space through having to use two different formats. In addition the space saving is insignificant, a few bytes. I can save the same amount by not encoding the optional NULL parameter in algorithm identifiers, and that without breaking backwards compatibility like binary-time does. If saving a few bytes really is so critically important then this should be pursued by creating a new ASN.1 time type so that everyone may benefit from it. If it's part of the standard time CHOICE then it can be used everywhere where UTC/GeneralisedTime is currently used. Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82LXGMK031272; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:33:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82LXGk8031271; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:33:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur.microsoft.com (mail-eur.microsoft.com [213.199.128.145]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82LXFoo031265 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:33:19 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:33:14 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359904@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSRDT5V5hp/RJGbQ32QZtY2xr02RgAIufhQ From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Tony Capel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2004 21:33:19.0917 (UTC) FILETIME=[774E65D0:01C49134] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i82LXGoo031266 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: In-line; > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > Sent: den 2 september 2004 18:54 > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan: > > Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was optional > and > need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also understand your > reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... > > I was trying to make two main points: > > 1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide > sMIMECapabilities: by > inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable to add > the > ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained > (allow > dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these > methods > could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs. > [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of complexity. sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing. > 2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should > ideally > be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available > even > if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well > (and this > was Jim Shaads old proposal). [Stefan] That is not how I read Jim's document. After a quick glance I read Jim's document as a way to specify effectively in an S/MIME message, what certificates can be used to encrypt to it's sender and what sMIMECapabilities are tied to each listed certificate (represented by a hash). It also touches on how you could include pointers in the S/MIME message, pointing to the storage location of certificates. So this does NOT solve how you would access dynamic authenticated data PRIOR to the first S/MIME exchange between the parties. > And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS > might be > included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is that in > many > cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as > well > (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e- > mail), and > we should minimize the proliferation of methods. > [Stefan] This makes it clear to me that we try to solve different problems. The problem how to find certificates and their path is important but it is definitely out of the scope of this work. I don't say that I oppose work in that problem space but it is not part of what this work item is set to accomplish. Tying sMIMECapabilities to other specific key management protocols would IMO be a bad thing that would lower the value and usability of this work. > > The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an > enterprise > updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the > sMIMECapabilities > information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a > VERY > big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" > revocation/renewal > to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing > so > leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and > differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the > sMIMECapabilities > change has a security impact...) > [Stefan] Revocation and re-issuance might be a problem for some environments but will not be a problem for others. So potential problems in some environments should not stop its use in the many cases where it is useful. I can whiteness from real life experience that sMIMECapabilities in certificates has been widely and successfully deployed without causing any major problems. So we know that it works and that it brings value to the use of S/MIME. It is a provable fact. > By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself > is no > longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. To take your point > about > keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message > signed > by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the > enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a > DNS SRV > for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the > originating > enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an > issue > about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - > this > is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. > > Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of > Jim's > (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be > ideal?? > [Stefan] I'm not saying that dynamic storage of sMIMECapabilities must be bad. I can definitely see benefits, but it should not be mixed with the simple task to specify use of a single attribute in certificates that is already well established and defined. Going for dynamic storage is a major work that needs a careful thought process to determine whether it is worth the efforts and whether it is a proper response to real problems of S/MIME users. Unless I got it totally wrong, I don't believe that Jim's draft will provide the solution you are after here. But I could be wrong. > Tony > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82GqQBo003691; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82GqQB6003690; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.magma.ca (mx2.magma.ca [206.191.0.250]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82GqP3v003681 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail1.magma.ca (mail1.magma.ca [206.191.0.252]) by mx2.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i82GqPEf021395; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:52:26 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail1.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i82GqHN5002450; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:52:26 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: "'Stefan Santesson'" , Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:54:27 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c4910d$858bf1c0$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359547@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i82GqQ3v003685 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Stefan: Thanks for your reply. I did understand that your proposal was optional and need only be used by those interested in doing so. I also understand your reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand... I was trying to make two main points: 1. The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide sMIMECapabilities: by inserting them directly in the cert. I think it would be valuable to add the ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained (allow dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these methods could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs. 2. If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should ideally be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available even if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well (and this was Jim Shaads old proposal). And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS might be included as noted by others in this list. The reason for this is that in many cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as well (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-mail), and we should minimize the proliferation of methods. The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an enterprise updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the sMIMECapabilities information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a VERY big thing for large organizations. As far as using "silent" revocation/renewal to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing so leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and differentiating between them. Potential security holes if the sMIMECapabilities change has a security impact...) By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself is no longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue. To take your point about keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message signed by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a DNS SRV for XKMS. Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the originating enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an issue about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - this is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft. Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of Jim's (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be ideal?? Tony Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82GDXZb000526; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82GDXFu000525; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:13:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82GDVOL000514 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:13:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from littauer@blkk.com) Received: from 146-115-115-31.c3-0.lex-ubr2.sbo-lex.ma.cable.rcn.com ([146.115.115.31] helo=[192.168.2.120]) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 1C2uDN-0005qZ-00; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 12:13:33 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.0.0.040405 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 12:14:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Charter Modification From: Ben Littauer To: Anders Rundgren , Craig McGregor CC: "Sean P. Turner" , SMIME , Mike Lambert Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <010001c49058$6897b0f0$0500a8c0@arport> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Anders, et al, I'm working with the "competition", i.e. the Open Group. We have indeed just launched a certification program for domain encryption and signing based on a profile of S/MIME. This work was done independently of, but highly conscious of, IETF efforts in the area. In fact, the profile used by the program was authored by Blake Ramsdell, and we have every intention of seeing it promulgated as widely as possible. There are definite shortcomings in the program as it exists today, primarily, as has been pointed out, in the area of key distribution. The current specification leaves this as a fundamentally manual process. Over time, as S/MIME gateways proliferate, we hope that the NEED for a more scalable mechanism develops, but for now penetration of this technology is so sparse that the more urgent need is to have products that can interoperate on the mail and key exchange level at all. I encourage all who are interested in this area to consider attending an Open Group session on this at one of their meetings. The next meeting is in Berlin toward the end of September, but it will be primarily informational with respect to the gateway certification program. The following meeting, in October in New Orleans, will have significant discussions on "v2" of the certification program. Please visit http://www.opengroup.org/messaging for more information. In sum, the Open Group considers itself IN NO WAY competitive to the IETF, and we would welcome participation from all interested parties. -ben- > From: Anders Rundgren > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:18:04 +0200 > To: Craig McGregor > Cc: "Sean P. Turner" , SMIME > Subject: Re: Charter Modification > > > Thanx Craig, > I was not aware of the mailsig (WG?) list. That means this > is outside of the S/MIME charter I suppose? > > BTW, here is a "competitor": > http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/19jul04.htm > > What I have seen little of, is how this can scale without having > a gateway PKI in place. Peer-to-peer certification does not seem > like a terribly good idea. > > Regards > Anders > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Craig McGregor > To: Anders Rundgren > Cc: Sean P. Turner ; SMIME > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 23:23 > Subject: RE: Charter Modification > > > Anders, > > I wasn't at the BOF you mentioned but as I understand it the BOF was scoped > for signing/authenticating e-mail. > Draft Charter: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00000.html > Minutes: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00025.html > > S/MIME gateways could use all existing S/MIME specifications and not be > limited to only signing outbound e-mail. e.g. Encryption > over the untrusted networks that transports messages between domains that > might otherwise have some level of trust. > > I would also like to see an interoperable S/MIME Gateway||Domains||Entities > standard or specification. I have had some past > experience at making a limited set of S/MIME gateway software talk to each > other reliably. This was more challenging at that time > than it should have been. > > S/MIME Gateway signing and encryption is quite possible in a closed-community > of domains today - example: http://e.govt.nz/see/mail/ > (Since November 2000) > > If it was possible to solve key management, PKI trust and legacy > interoperability (including mailing-list behaviour) using something > that scales to an open community then an S/MIME gateway approach could > certainly work in the open community. Solving all three of > these problems isn't necessarily easy. > > Regards, > Craig > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On > Behalf Of Anders Rundgren > Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 6:09 p.m. > To: Sean P. Turner; SMIME > Subject: Re: Charter Modification > > > How about including a S/MIME gateway task? > The OpenGroup and Blake B are reportedly working on such a thing. > > What happened with the gateway BOF that Phill H-B wrote about sometime ago? > > An S/MIME gateway standard is really needed as S/MIME end-to-end encryption is > not going anywhere. > > Anders > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean P. Turner > To: SMIME > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 01:41 > Subject: Charter Modification > > > All, > > To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working > group's charter (we also needed to update the dates > anyway because some are way off). Attached is the proposed modification. > Please respond with any comments by Friday. > > Cheers, > > spt > > > > > > S/MIME Mail Security (smime) > > Chair: > Sean Turner > Blake Ramsdell > > > Security Area Director: > Russ Housley > Steve Belovin > > Security Area Advisor: > Russ Housley > > Mailing Lists: > General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org > To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org > Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/ > > Description of Working Group: > > The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that > comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of > the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms > was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon > these base specifications. > > The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm > independent, yet there is always more than one way to > use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a > specification that describes its use with CMS. > Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be > developed. > > To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be > collected and published. Some of the examples will include > > structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices > (ESS) (RFC 2634) document. > > CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously > distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications > for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message > recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) > areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be > algorithm independent. > > To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a > specification will be developed allowing S/MIME > capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the > X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX > Working Group. > > The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress > the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. > The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to > Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME > specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the > PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can > start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005. > > Milestones: > > History > Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard. > Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC. > Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC. > Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard. > Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard. > Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC. > Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification. > Last call on X.400 transport specification. > Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification. > Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification. > Last call on AES algorithm specification. > Last call on update to MSG. > First draft of update to CERT. > First draft of CMS and ESS examples document. > First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix. > First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification. > Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard. > Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard. > Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard. > Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard. > Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard. > Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard. > Last call on CMS and ESS examples document. > Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard. > Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard. > First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification. > Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification. > Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard > > September 04 > Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC > First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension > > October 04 > Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension > > December 04 > Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC > > January 05 > Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix > > February 05 > Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard > Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard > Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard > Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard > Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard > Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification > > January 06 > Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82E8hPR089319; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:08:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82E8hpu089318; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:08:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82E8gLV089296 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:08:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i82E8bN05364; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:08:37 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:08:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i82E8aG03466; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:08:36 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:08:36 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409021408.i82E8aG03466@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds > > > >since 1.1.70, ... > > > > > > I agree. However, very simple math can be used to make the > > > conversion. However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit > > > more complicated. I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary > > > routines to handle this in a few lines of code. > > > >If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime > >function, something like the following should work to convert a > >generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t. > > > > time_t test = (time_t) 0; int i ; > > for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) { > > test += (time_t)(1 << i) ; > > strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test)); > > if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0) > > test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ; > > } > > Two thoughts: > > 1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are > using here. gmtime is not rich, just look at the implementations. you can easily replace the formatting by another equivalent implementation which is less than 50 lines of C that directly converts to a string. And what would emebedded system do with such a time? They would compare it against which value? If anything like certificate validation is involved, string processing etc is necessary anyway, and if you consider the size of an asn1 decoder, sorry, telling that gmtime or strftime are 'rich' is a somewhet weak argument. > > 2. This only works when the time zone is UTC. This is one of the reasons > that RFC 3280 and RFC 3852 require the time values to make use of UTC. The > UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types do support other time zones. id-signingTime only has UTC: UTCTime values must be expressed in Greenwich Mean Time (Zulu) and must include seconds (i.e., times are YYMMDDHHMMSSZ), even where the number of seconds is zero. Midnight (GMT) must be represented as "YYMMDD000000Z". Century information is implicit, and the century must be determined as follows: Where YY is greater than or equal to 50, the year shall be interpreted as 19YY; and Where YY is less than 50, the year shall be interpreted as 20YY. GeneralizedTime values shall be expressed in Greenwich Mean Time (Zulu) and must include seconds (i.e., times are YYYYMMDDHHMMSSZ), even where the number of seconds is zero. GeneralizedTime values must not include fractional seconds. You might propose SigningTime ::= Time Time ::= CHOICE { utcTime UTCTime, generalizedTime GeneralizedTime, epochSeconds INTEGER} in CMS to avoid all complications about multiple values, ie. when having id-SigningTime and id-BinarySigningTime together, well, this creates compartibility problems. > > > > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while > > > >displaying a generaizedtime does not. > > > > > > Display to a human is not the biggest concern. Date comparison is a much > > > bigger deal to me. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision > > > integers are involved. > > > >Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple. > >Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime. > > Yes, if all times are represented in UTC, and the times are in the same > format. Another complexity can arise when one date is in UTCTime and the > other is in GeneralizedTime. All id-SigningTime values are in Zulu, the necessary adjustment to convert a UTC to a Generalized time is exteremely simple. > > >In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it > >may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after > >1000000000 > > > >of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function... > >... but then you probably already have other problems. > > I already said that above... Well, look into the free sources. Adding 50 lines of code is less than adding whatever logic would be necessary to check inconsistent combinations of id-SigningTime and id-BinarySigningTime. > > >'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw. > > We should probably add that to the list of things to clarify if the > specification is ever updated again. No, one should reference some appropriate texts. Similar, I don't think that it is necessary to teach people about the variable length nature of an ASN1 INTEGER. > > > > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the > > > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway > > > >because of dates in certs. > > > > > > Yep. I think that BinaryTime has other uses too. > > > >In the intended scenario? Does silence to this question mean that you don't see any use in the intended scenario? If so, where is the beef? > > > >I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification > >can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it > >is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even > >superfluous, > >and may create confusion, but anyway.' > > > >I amy be wrong. > > You may be right. That is why we ask for review. I think, there are at least two Peter who don't see a need for this spec. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82D1Txf083637; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82D1TpU083636; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:01:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i82D1SMr083630 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 8344 invoked by uid 0); 2 Sep 2004 13:01:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.176.174) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2004 13:01:29 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040902085232.05413008@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:01:43 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409021249.i82Cn0C03165@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409021249.i82Cn0C03165@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds > > >since 1.1.70, ... > > > > I agree. However, very simple math can be used to make the > > conversion. However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit > > more complicated. I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary > > routines to handle this in a few lines of code. > >If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime >function, something like the following should work to convert a >generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t. > > time_t test = (time_t) 0; int i ; > for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) { > test += (time_t)(1 << i) ; > strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test)); > if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0) > test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ; > } Two thoughts: 1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are using here. 2. This only works when the time zone is UTC. This is one of the reasons that RFC 3280 and RFC 3852 require the time values to make use of UTC. The UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types do support other time zones. > > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while > > >displaying a generaizedtime does not. > > > > Display to a human is not the biggest concern. Date comparison is a much > > bigger deal to me. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision > > integers are involved. > >Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple. >Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime. Yes, if all times are represented in UTC, and the times are in the same format. Another complexity can arise when one date is in UTCTime and the other is in GeneralizedTime. >In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it >may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after >1000000000 > >of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function... >... but then you probably already have other problems. I already said that above... >'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw. We should probably add that to the list of things to clarify if the specification is ever updated again. > > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the > > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway > > >because of dates in certs. > > > > Yep. I think that BinaryTime has other uses too. > >In the intended scenario? > >I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification >can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it >is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even >superfluous, >and may create confusion, but anyway.' > >I amy be wrong. You may be right. That is why we ask for review. Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82Cn2WI083093; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i82Cn2DQ083092; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:49:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82Cn0EP083086 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:49:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i82Cn1N03894; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:49:01 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:49:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i82Cn0C03165; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:49:00 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:49:00 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409021249.i82Cn0C03165@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds > >since 1.1.70, ... > > I agree. However, very simple math can be used to make the > conversion. However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit > more complicated. I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary > routines to handle this in a few lines of code. If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime function, something like the following should work to convert a generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t. time_t test = (time_t) 0; int i ; for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) { test += (time_t)(1 << i) ; strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test)); if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0) test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ; } > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while > >displaying a generaizedtime does not. > > Display to a human is not the biggest concern. Date comparison is a much > bigger deal to me. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision > integers are involved. Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple. Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime. In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after 1000000000 of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function... ... but then you probably already have other problems. 'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw. > > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway > >because of dates in certs. > > Yep. I think that BinaryTime has other uses too. In the intended scenario? I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even superfluous, and may create confusion, but anyway.' I amy be wrong. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i820DeHM019834; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i820DeLH019833; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:13:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-eur1.microsoft.com (mail-eur1.microsoft.com [213.199.128.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i820DdCP019823 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:13:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefans@microsoft.com) Received: from EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com ([65.53.192.44]) by mail-eur1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:13:30 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:13:28 +0100 Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359547@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Thread-Index: AcSQUqHHTFBj49s+Q0K92GaVLngDJgAKo4Og From: "Stefan Santesson" To: "Tony Capel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2004 00:13:30.0053 (UTC) FILETIME=[ACFB0750:01C49081] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i820DeCP019828 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tony, In-line; > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] > Sent: den 1 september 2004 20:37 > To: ietf-smime@imc.org; Stefan Santesson > Cc: 'Anders Rundgren' > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > > Stefan: > > I am also concerned about requiring that the sMIMECapabilities be in the > certificate itself, although I agree that something to help get initial > sMIMECapabilities is required. [Stefan] This is a fundamental misunderstanding. I do certainly not propose that sMIMECapabilities should be REQUIRED in certs. This is an option for the many cases where this is useful, makes sense and is compatible with the organizational structure it is used. So we don't need to prove that it is useful for all certificates and all use cases. We only need to prove that it is useful enough and that its use is not creating problems for those for which it doesn't make any sense. > > Jim Schaad's "Certificate Distribution Specification" expired draft > (draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt) touched on this as well. > [Stefan] I'm sorry, I don't have this draft. > If sMIMECapabilities is bound to the certificate, certificates may need to > be > re-issued more frequently (when capabilities information is changed). > This will > create additional work for the CA, and CRLs will inevitably increase in > size > (these are bad things). (Correct me if I am wrong: If the capabilities > for an > organization changes, all of the certs will need to be reissued!) [Stefan] As you mention below, the act to put sMIMECapabilities is more of a policy enforcement act and as such it doesn't differ from many other aspects of certificates. You can compare with the case where the certificate policy gets updated, changed or a new certificate policy must be added to all certificates. If your policy in this matter is subject to change on a frequent basis in a way that needs to be immediately populated you need to handle and plan for this. You may the conclude that you don't want to put sMIMECapabilities in your certs. Renewal doesn't however necessarily mean that old certificate must be revoked and some PKI implementations actually allow enforced silent renewal of all certificate in an organization to all users at the cost of just a few clicks in the administrational GUI. This must in the end be compared with the case where an initial exchange takes place and the sender has NO knowledge about the recipient, then it will need to fall back to the default configuration in the senders application which in many cases is 40-bit encryption. > > Also since the certificate is signed by the CA, sMIMECapabilities in this > proposal is signed by the CA and not the end-entity (as in existing > method). > This may sometimes be beneficial since it allows the CA to have added > control > over the use of algorithms and key lengths. The change from the end-user > signing to the CA signing has security implications and should be noted* > (possibly in the security section). [Stefan] We agree here. It is important to clearly guide that user signed sMIMECapabilities should have precedence over capabilities carried in certs. The capabilities in certs are only meant to be the last resource of guidance before falling back to the default configuration in the sender's application. > > Some of the issues could be addressed by allowing the use of a dynamic > method as > well. One or more methods could be specified, XKMS + DNS, LDAP, and/or > HTTP for > example. One available method could be an "immediate" method, allowing > those > CAs who do not mind putting sMIMECapabilities within their certificates to > do so > (as currently proposed). > [Stefan] I men that it is very important to use the same structure and attribute format as when this same information is carried in a S/MIME signed message. This way we can preserve the same logic for capabilities in certificates and in signed messages and thus switch to the use of capabilities in signed messages as soon as this is available for the sender. > > I also wonder how many cases there are when only the sMIMECapabilities is > required (and not certificates & paths as well). [Stefan] S/MIME is based on the use of certificates. If you have any case where you don't have a certificate then this feature does not apply to you. If you don't have a > certificate, an extension won't help (you need certificates and > sMIMECapabilities both). If you have a certificate from a previous > message you > likely also received the sMIMECapabilities in a SignerInfo. If you > obtained the > certificate using LDAP or some other means you might logically but > arguably > expect to access the sMIMECapabilities the same way. If your software > threw > away the S/MIME capabilities (rather than caching them like the > certificate) > adding them to the certificate is a peculiar way to fix the software! [Stefan] I think this is a misunderstanding of the spec. You would use the capabilities from the signed message if you have one. You only use the capabilities in the certificate if you don't have any other data to use. > Also of > course for dual keypair systems, there may be situations where you have > the > signing certificate but not the encryption one, in which case you want > both > sMIMECapabilities and the encryption cert - and I hope the proposal is not > to > embed the encryption cert inside the signing cert!!! [Stefan] You are right, that is absolutely NOT the proposal. sMIMECapabilities only makes sense in encryption certs to be used by the sender of an encrypted message. > > So maybe the method used to get sMIMECapabilities should also be able to > return > the certificates & paths - to make it more generally useful - in which > case Jim > Schaad's proposal - and allowing any dynamic access method including XKMS > + DNS, > LDAP, HTTP, . - may be worth another look. > [Stefan] I don't agree. We should not overload this function. Just complement the use of the same attribute in signed messages. > Sorry for the long winded reply. But an easier method to get certs, paths > and > sMIMECapabilities is needed. > [Stefan] No problem. I hope my answers make sense. > Tony > > > * This may also include a discussion about using values provided in > certificates > in preference to values obtained by other means (e.g. when both a > certificate > and the SignerInfo contain sMIMECapabilities). For example, the first > paragraph > of Section 3 in the current proposal may not always be correct: the > sMIMECapabilities list signed by the CA (e.g. provided in a certificate) > may be > more trusted than the list provided in a message even if it appears the > message > was more recent. In some applications the increased trust (or more > correctly, > the increased authority of the signor) may take preference. > > > > | -----Original Message----- > | From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org > | [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren > | Sent: August 12, 2004 4:35 AM > | To: ietf-smime@imc.org > | Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt > | > | > | > | I have no comments on the "design" in this draft. > | > | However, I seriously question the idea to put client software > | capabilities in certificates. > | > | Why? > | - because issuers may not have this information > | - because users may have multiple clients > | - because static solutions are limiting > | > | If we begin to use dynamic methods like XKMS + DNS to find > | public keys of recipients, SCEXT represents a step in another > | direction. > | > | Due to the limited utility of true end-to-end encryption in > | corporate environments (the DOMSEC RFC shows a few good > | reasons to that), as well as the de-facto use of the web as a > | distribution medium for e-government purposes (which is a > | much easier solution than S/MIME), I believe that Microsoft > | should focus on making a gateway e-mail standard a reality > | rather than patching a system that never will play a major > | role and actually mostly creates problems for end-users and > | system administrators. > | > | Anders > | > | > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81JMQSa097111; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81JMQtY097110; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.107]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81JMOfI097097 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anders.rundgren@telia.com) Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6544637E60; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518EB37E52; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from arport (t8o913p42.telia.com [213.64.26.162]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9990837E50; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:22:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <010001c49058$6897b0f0$0500a8c0@arport> From: "Anders Rundgren" To: "Craig McGregor" Cc: "Sean P. Turner" , "SMIME" References: <14270A31340CCF46A050FEC25B8F50A008C6A32B@juliet.hamlet.treasury.govt.nz> Subject: Re: Charter Modification Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:18:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Thanx Craig, I was not aware of the mailsig (WG?) list. That means this is outside of the S/MIME charter I suppose? BTW, here is a "competitor": http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/19jul04.htm What I have seen little of, is how this can scale without having a gateway PKI in place. Peer-to-peer certification does not seem like a terribly good idea. Regards Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig McGregor To: Anders Rundgren Cc: Sean P. Turner ; SMIME Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 23:23 Subject: RE: Charter Modification Anders, I wasn't at the BOF you mentioned but as I understand it the BOF was scoped for signing/authenticating e-mail. Draft Charter: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00000.html Minutes: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00025.html S/MIME gateways could use all existing S/MIME specifications and not be limited to only signing outbound e-mail. e.g. Encryption over the untrusted networks that transports messages between domains that might otherwise have some level of trust. I would also like to see an interoperable S/MIME Gateway||Domains||Entities standard or specification. I have had some past experience at making a limited set of S/MIME gateway software talk to each other reliably. This was more challenging at that time than it should have been. S/MIME Gateway signing and encryption is quite possible in a closed-community of domains today - example: http://e.govt.nz/see/mail/ (Since November 2000) If it was possible to solve key management, PKI trust and legacy interoperability (including mailing-list behaviour) using something that scales to an open community then an S/MIME gateway approach could certainly work in the open community. Solving all three of these problems isn't necessarily easy. Regards, Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 6:09 p.m. To: Sean P. Turner; SMIME Subject: Re: Charter Modification How about including a S/MIME gateway task? The OpenGroup and Blake B are reportedly working on such a thing. What happened with the gateway BOF that Phill H-B wrote about sometime ago? An S/MIME gateway standard is really needed as S/MIME end-to-end encryption is not going anywhere. Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean P. Turner To: SMIME Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 01:41 Subject: Charter Modification All, To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some are way off). Attached is the proposed modification. Please respond with any comments by Friday. Cheers, spt S/MIME Mail Security (smime) Chair: Sean Turner Blake Ramsdell Security Area Director: Russ Housley Steve Belovin Security Area Advisor: Russ Housley Mailing Lists: General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/ Description of Working Group: The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications. The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed. To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document. CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent. To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group. The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005. Milestones: History Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard. Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC. Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC. Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard. Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard. Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC. Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification. Last call on X.400 transport specification. Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification. Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification. Last call on AES algorithm specification. Last call on update to MSG. First draft of update to CERT. First draft of CMS and ESS examples document. First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix. First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard. Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard. Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard. Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard. Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard. Last call on CMS and ESS examples document. Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard. Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard. First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification. Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification. Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard September 04 Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension October 04 Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension December 04 Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC January 05 Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix February 05 Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification January 06 Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IaaMn093900; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81IaadW093899; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from stingray.missi.ncsc.mil (stingray.missi.ncsc.mil [144.51.50.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IaZ3Z093891 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil) Message-ID: <200409011832.i81IWDIQ004178@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:36:13 -0400 From: "David P. Kemp" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann CC: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2004 18:36:19.0511 (UTC) FILETIME=[92A34C70:01C49052] Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter, Your criticism is what seems bizarre. The one sentence omitted from what you quote below states that it DOES go beyond 2038. An INTEGER number of seconds since Jan 1 1970 will go until the heat death of the universe and beyond. The question for more rational discussion is: is a binary signing time value useful? If the answer is yes, the only remaining questions are epoch and resolution. Since there were very few CMS digital signatures in existence before 1970, using an epoch of 1600 or 1904 would seem to offer little benefit. It is also difficult to articulate a rationale for specifying the moment of signing to nanosecond resolution. The reason for a binary attribute in the first place is primarily space efficiency. CMS can be used to sign large numbers of small objects, and certificates don't need to accompany those objects. ASN.1 structures can be PER encoded, but PER offers minimal compression of UTC or Generalized Times (7 bits vs. 8 per character). Once you have squeezed out all bits permitted by the standard, you look for additional opportunities. Defining a binary time attribute is one such opportunity. Will this be useful for S/MIME? Of course not. But it is useful for some other applications of CMS. Dave Peter Gutmann wrote: >Russ Housley writes: > > > >>The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system >>representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? >> >> > >It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. > >The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats >have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a >format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What >real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep >the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the >Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would >feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID >value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... > >Peter. > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IYUTn093634; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81IYUKD093633; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IYTDl093626 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from capel@comgate.com) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.214]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i81IYWUN012498; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:34:33 -0400 Received: from tony (ottawa-hs-209-217-122-183.s-ip.magma.ca [209.217.122.183]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id i81IYNR4023289; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:34:32 -0400 From: "Tony Capel" To: , Cc: "'Anders Rundgren'" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:36:32 -0400 Message-ID: <002901c49052$9e14ae50$01b5a8c0@tony> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00ba01c48047$3571cba0$0500a8c0@arport> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id i81IYUDl093628 Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Stefan: I am also concerned about requiring that the sMIMECapabilities be in the certificate itself, although I agree that something to help get initial sMIMECapabilities is required. Jim Schaad's "Certificate Distribution Specification" expired draft (draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt) touched on this as well. If sMIMECapabilities is bound to the certificate, certificates may need to be re-issued more frequently (when capabilities information is changed). This will create additional work for the CA, and CRLs will inevitably increase in size (these are bad things). (Correct me if I am wrong: If the capabilities for an organization changes, all of the certs will need to be reissued!) Also since the certificate is signed by the CA, sMIMECapabilities in this proposal is signed by the CA and not the end-entity (as in existing method). This may sometimes be beneficial since it allows the CA to have added control over the use of algorithms and key lengths. The change from the end-user signing to the CA signing has security implications and should be noted* (possibly in the security section). Some of the issues could be addressed by allowing the use of a dynamic method as well. One or more methods could be specified, XKMS + DNS, LDAP, and/or HTTP for example. One available method could be an "immediate" method, allowing those CAs who do not mind putting sMIMECapabilities within their certificates to do so (as currently proposed). I also wonder how many cases there are when only the sMIMECapabilities is required (and not certificates & paths as well). If you don't have a certificate, an extension won't help (you need certificates and sMIMECapabilities both). If you have a certificate from a previous message you likely also received the sMIMECapabilities in a SignerInfo. If you obtained the certificate using LDAP or some other means you might logically but arguably expect to access the sMIMECapabilities the same way. If your software threw away the S/MIME capabilities (rather than caching them like the certificate) adding them to the certificate is a peculiar way to fix the software! Also of course for dual keypair systems, there may be situations where you have the signing certificate but not the encryption one, in which case you want both sMIMECapabilities and the encryption cert - and I hope the proposal is not to embed the encryption cert inside the signing cert!!! So maybe the method used to get sMIMECapabilities should also be able to return the certificates & paths - to make it more generally useful - in which case Jim Schaad's proposal - and allowing any dynamic access method including XKMS + DNS, LDAP, HTTP, . - may be worth another look. Sorry for the long winded reply. But an easier method to get certs, paths and sMIMECapabilities is needed. Tony * This may also include a discussion about using values provided in certificates in preference to values obtained by other means (e.g. when both a certificate and the SignerInfo contain sMIMECapabilities). For example, the first paragraph of Section 3 in the current proposal may not always be correct: the sMIMECapabilities list signed by the CA (e.g. provided in a certificate) may be more trusted than the list provided in a message even if it appears the message was more recent. In some applications the increased trust (or more correctly, the increased authority of the signor) may take preference. | -----Original Message----- | From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org | [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren | Sent: August 12, 2004 4:35 AM | To: ietf-smime@imc.org | Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt | | | | I have no comments on the "design" in this draft. | | However, I seriously question the idea to put client software | capabilities in certificates. | | Why? | - because issuers may not have this information | - because users may have multiple clients | - because static solutions are limiting | | If we begin to use dynamic methods like XKMS + DNS to find | public keys of recipients, SCEXT represents a step in another | direction. | | Due to the limited utility of true end-to-end encryption in | corporate environments (the DOMSEC RFC shows a few good | reasons to that), as well as the de-facto use of the web as a | distribution medium for e-government purposes (which is a | much easier solution than S/MIME), I believe that Microsoft | should focus on making a gateway e-mail standard a reality | rather than patching a system that never will play a major | role and actually mostly creates problems for end-users and | system administrators. | | Anders | | Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81I86Sh091733; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81I86ju091732; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i81I85gr091726 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 4545 invoked by uid 0); 1 Sep 2004 18:08:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.90.67) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 18:08:08 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901135919.085d6358@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:04:41 -0400 To: Peter Sylvester From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200409011736.i81HaBL29979@chandon.edelweb.fr> References: <200409011736.i81HaBL29979@chandon.edelweb.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > > >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system > > >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? > > > > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. > >Some thoughts: > >The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. > >The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just >happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their >asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. Yep. >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds >since 1.1.70, ... I agree. However, very simple math can be used to make the conversion. However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit more complicated. I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary routines to handle this in a few lines of code. >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while >displaying a generaizedtime does not. Display to a human is not the biggest concern. Date comparison is a much bigger deal to me. Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved. >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway >because of dates in certs. Yep. I think that BinaryTime has other uses too. Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HxLvd090922; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81HxLBj090921; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HxKfd090915 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:59:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i81HxMN21543; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:59:22 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:59:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i81HxMf00073; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:59:22 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:59:22 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409011759.i81HxMf00073@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: housley@vigilsec.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I have forgotten: The proposed format and SMIME attributes serves the same purpose as an existing one, i.e. id-signingTime Nothing is said about what to do when both attributes are present, how they should be treated when available together. One probably wants to set both, so instead of saving data and cpu, one will add. > > > >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system > > >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? > > > > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. > > Some thoughts: > > The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. > > The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just > happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their > asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. > > There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds > since 1.1.70, ... > > Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while > displaying a generaizedtime does not. > > The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the > size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway > because of dates in certs. > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HaJm9089205; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:36:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81HaJCW089204; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:36:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from edelweb.fr (edelweb.fr [212.234.46.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HaIWa089197 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i81HaCN21085; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:36:12 +0200 (MEST) Received: from chandon.edelweb.fr (chandon.edelweb.fr [193.51.14.162]) by edelweb.fr (nospam/1.8); Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:36:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by chandon.edelweb.fr (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i81HaBL29979; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:36:11 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:36:11 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Sylvester Message-Id: <200409011736.i81HaBL29979@chandon.edelweb.fr> To: housley@vigilsec.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system > >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? > > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. Some thoughts: The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds since 1.1.70, ... Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while displaying a generaizedtime does not. The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway because of dates in certs. > > The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats > have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a > format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What > real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep > the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the > Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would > feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID > value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... > > Peter. > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81HWX60088995; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:32:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81HWXTE088994; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:32:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i81HWWxR088987 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 27643 invoked by uid 0); 1 Sep 2004 17:32:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.90.67) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 17:32:35 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901132843.08668ac0@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:33:24 -0400 To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901112207.084c8350@mail.binhost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: > >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system > >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? > >It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. Not so. A 4-octet value takes us to 2038. After that a 5-octet value is needed. Many operating systems already use a 64-bit value internally. >The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats >have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a >format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What >real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep >the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the >Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would >feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID >value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... Any of these is possible, but a choice defeats the whole point, which is to avoid complex conversion. Russ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81GfoaC085047; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:41:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81GfoKe085046; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:41:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81GfnAQ085033 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B08344CF; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 04:41:45 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26342-18; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 04:41:45 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC916344C5; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 04:41:44 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E9D37745; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 04:41:44 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2YBH-0006Ch-00; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 04:41:55 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: housley@vigilsec.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901112207.084c8350@mail.binhost.com> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 04:41:55 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ Housley writes: >The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system >representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050. The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre. The ASN.1 time formats have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime. What real problem is this addressing? Why a time_t? Why not a 64-bit time to keep the Java guys happy? Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time? Or the Macintosh seconds-since 1904? You could make it a choice, so no-one would feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format... Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81FUMfM079382; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:30:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81FUMOc079381; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i81FULlS079375 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:30:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 18962 invoked by uid 0); 1 Sep 2004 15:30:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (141.156.189.4) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 15:30:23 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901112207.084c8350@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:31:00 -0400 To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901091956.08335d78@mail.binhost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The document states the rationale. No conversion to operating system representation and it is smaller. In what way do you find it limiting? The INTEGER is not limited to four octets. Did you read it that way? Russ At 10:55 AM 9/1/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote: >Russ Housley writes: > > >Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate > review of > >the document that was posted earlier this week: draft-housley- > >binarytime-00.txt. > >Uhh... what on earth motivated this? It's a time format that's even more >limited than UTCTime. > >Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81Et7RG077174; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81Et7fM077173; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81Et7R9077145 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399E134004; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:55:02 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02614-04; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:55:02 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpb.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E500333F65; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:55:01 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01 (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EECF37745; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:55:01 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01 with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2WVz-00068j-00; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 02:55:11 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901091956.08335d78@mail.binhost.com> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 02:55:11 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Russ Housley writes: >Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate review of >the document that was posted earlier this week: draft-housley- >binarytime-00.txt. Uhh... what on earth motivated this? It's a time format that's even more limited than UTCTime. Peter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81DLFf2067949; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:21:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i81DLF8j067948; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:21:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.240.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i81DLESE067939 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 11371 invoked by uid 0); 1 Sep 2004 13:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.149.69) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 13:21:13 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20040901091956.08335d78@mail.binhost.com> X-Sender: housley@mail.binhost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:21:46 -0400 To: ietf-smime@imc.org From: Russ Housley Subject: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate review of the document that was posted earlier this week: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt. My intention is to request that this document be published as a standards-track RFC. Thanks, Russ