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From service@paypal.com Fri Apr 22 12:59:37 2005 Received: from mail.com ([81.181.141.27]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA04303; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:59:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200504221659.MAA04303@ietf.org> From: "service@paypal.com" Subject: Technical services Paypal Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:59:29 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a

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Technical service paypal From BonnieWeiss@exopotamie.com Wed May 18 17:15:12 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21222; Wed, 18 May 2005 17:15:11 -0400 (EDT) From: BonnieWeiss@exopotamie.com Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DYW9p-0000N6-DA; Wed, 18 May 2005 17:32:50 -0400 Received: from cpe-70-112-250-212.austin.res.rr.com ([70.112.250.212]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DYVsl-0000ob-Eq; Wed, 18 May 2005 17:15:12 -0400 Received: from 2[3 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:15:12 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2eba37fe9c77781b0ecb0a74d8c65128 From IngridMims@contractpeople.co.uk Mon May 23 00:50:34 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA26726 for ; Mon, 23 May 2005 00:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Da5BW-0006mN-Sd for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 May 2005 01:09:08 -0400 Received: from [211.215.93.254] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Da4tZ-0005Q0-RW for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 May 2005 00:50:30 -0400 Received: from oGA@localhost by zWn.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Mon, 23 May 2005 16:17:20 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Sarah Hager" Reply-To: "Sarah Hager" To: phil.oakley@ietf.org, sacred-archive@ietf.org Subject: All XP Pro software for cheap Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 03:22:20 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: IngridMims@contractpeople.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--yDIRTeez6lA4gQm" X-Spam-Score: 6.0 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 VdN4 ----yDIRTeez6lA4gQm Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable L

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TOP 10 NEW TITLES

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	1	Offi= ce Pro 2003
	2	Windows XP= Pro
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	7	Adobe Acrobat= 7.0
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	9	Alias Maya 6 Wave= frt
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Improv= ed file management, new design possibilities, and a more intuitive way to = create for the Web
Support f= or 16-bit images, digital camera raw data, and non-square pixels
Create or modify photos using paintin= g, drawing, and retouching tools

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Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 200= 5
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= ----yDIRTeez6lA4gQm-- From JuliaMay@perillas.net Mon May 23 09:54:21 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25814 for ; Mon, 23 May 2005 09:54:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [211.109.112.156] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DaDfr-00048t-Mv for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 May 2005 10:12:58 -0400 Received: from sVh@localhost by TxX.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Mon, 23 May 2005 17:16:44 +0200 Message-ID: <63bpaYDqcUoof1qH90d6@healthiness.net> From: "Helen Cramer" Reply-To: "Helen Cramer" To: phil.oakley@ietf.org, sacred-archive@ietf.org Subject: Thousands of academic software titles, 80% off, Instant Download Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:16:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: JuliaMay@perillas.net Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--cvjgZypDoUXftRe4r4" X-Spam-Score: 6.0 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 jLzl ----cvjgZypDoUXftRe4r4 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable V

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SEARCH

TOP 10 NEW TITLES

= ON SALE NOW!
	1	Offi= ce Pro 2003
	2	Windows XP= Pro
	3	Adobe Creative S= uite Premium
	4	Norton An= tivirus 2005
	5	Flash MX = 2004
	6	Corel Draw 12
	7	Adobe Acrobat= 7.0
	8	Windows 2003 Ser= ver
	9	Alias Maya 6 Wave= frt
	10	Adobe Premiere
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		Apple Software
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		these other ite= ms...

Microsoft Office Professional Editi= on *2003*
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Price:

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<= br> System requirements= | Accessories |&= nbsp; Other Versions

Features:

Analyze and manage business information using Access d= atabases
Exchange data with = other systems using enhanced XML technology
Control information sharing rules with enhanced IRM techno= logy
Easy-to-use wizards to = create e-mail newsletters and printed marketing materials

More than 20 preformatted business reports <= /font>

Sales Rank: #1
Shipping: International/US or via instant download
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A= verage Customer Review: 3D"5

Based on 1,768 reviews. Write a review.

Microsoft Wind= ows XP Professional or Longhorn Edition
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System requirements |&n= bsp; Accessories | Other Versions

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Designed for businesses of all sizes
Manage digital pictures, music, video, DVDs, and more

More security with the ability t= o encrypt files and folders

= Built-in voice, video, and instant messaging support

Integration with Windows servers and management s= olutions

Sales Rank: #2
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Average Customer Review: 3D"5 Based on 868 reviews. Write a review.

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System requirements = | Accessories | Other Versions

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Unparalleled efficiency--automate production tasks with built-in = or customized scripts
Improv= ed file management, new design possibilities, and a more intuitive way to = create for the Web
Support f= or 16-bit images, digital camera raw data, and non-square pixels
Create or modify photos using paintin= g, drawing, and retouching tools

Sales Rank: #3
Shipping: International= /US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 200= 5
Average Customer Review: 3D"5 B= ased on 498 reviews. Write a review.

= ----cvjgZypDoUXftRe4r4-- From MarthaHagan@2addictive.co.uk Wed May 25 22:38:42 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24880 for ; Wed, 25 May 2005 22:38:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcp05303490pcs.wanarb01.mi.comcast.net ([68.40.197.167]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Db8ZD-00034a-EZ for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 22:57:52 -0400 Received: from DKf@localhost by Or6.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Thu, 26 May 2005 04:43:06 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Kelly Roark" Reply-To: "Kelly Roark" To: phil.oakley@ietf.org Cc: sacred-archive@ietf.org Subject: Acrobat Pro 7.0 $69.95 Windows Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:42:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: MarthaHagan@2addictive.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--37HLfoTwSeurjiq9" X-Spam-Score: 6.2 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: f8184d7d4d1b986353eb58ea3e887935 BYG ----37HLfoTwSeurjiq9 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable l

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<= td vAlign=3Dbottom>

TOP 10 NEW TITLES

<= td width=3D4> Microsoft=

= ON SALE NOW!
	1	Office Pro 2003
	2	Windows XP Pro
	3	Adobe Creative Suite Premium
&nbs= p;	4	Norton Antivirus 2005
	5	Flash MX 2004
	6	Corel Draw 12
	7	Adobe Acrobat 7.0
	8	Windows 2003 Server
	9	Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
10	Adobe Premiere
	= See more by this manufacturer=

&= nbsp;		A pple Software
	Customers also bought
		these oth= er items...

Microsoft Office Professional= Edition *2003*
Microsoft

<= td vAlign=3Dtop noWrap>

Choose:

<= tr>

List Price:		$899.00
Price:		$69.99<= /b>
You Save:		$830.01 (92= %)

Availability:= Available for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code: ISe229
Media: CD-ROM / Download

System requirements | Accessories | Other Versions

Featur= es:

Analyze and manage business information using Access databases

Exchange data with other systems u= sing enhanced XML technology

Control information sharing rules with enhanced IRM technology

Easy-to-use wizards to create e-mail n= ewsletters and printed marketing materials

= More than 20 preformatted business reports

Sales Rank: #1
Ship= ping: International/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expi= res: June 30th, 2005
Average Customer= Review: 3D"5

Based on 1,768 reviews. Write a review.

<= td class=3Dsmall vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright height=3D18 width=3D73>= List Price:

Microsoft Windows XP= Professional or Longhorn Edition
Microsoft

Choose:

<= a href=3Dhttp://expansionsoft.com/?1>

$279.00

Price:

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System = requirements | Acces= sories | Other Versi= ons

Features:=

Designed for businesses o= f all sizes
Manage digital p= ictures, music, video, DVDs, and more
More security with the ability to encrypt files and folders
Built-in voice, video, and insta= nt messaging support
Integra= tion with Windows servers and management solutions

Sales Rank: #2
Shipping: In= ternational/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires: Jun= e 30th, 2005
Average Customer Review:= 3D"5 Based on 868 reviews. Writ= e a review.

Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
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Price:		$69.99
You Save:		$529.01 (90%)

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Media: CD-ROM / Download

System requirements&nb= sp; | Accessories |&= nbsp; Other Versions

<= p>Features:

Customized workspace; save personalized wor= kspace and tool settings; create customized shortcuts

Unparalleled efficiency--automate production ta= sks with built-in or customized scripts

Improved file management, new design possibilities, and a more= intuitive way to create for the Web

Support for 16-bit images, digital camera raw data, and non-squar= e pixels

Create or modify ph= otos using painting, drawing, and retouching tools

Sales Rank: #3
Shipping:= International/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires:<= /b> June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Revi= ew: Based on 498 reviews. Write a review.

----37HLfoTwSeurjiq9-- From LindaMueller@teety.com Thu May 26 23:41:11 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11105 for ; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tph1abh226.tky.mesh.ad.jp ([60.237.13.226]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DbW1S-0007Jf-1i for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 00:00:35 -0400 Received: from orn@localhost by 8LY.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Thu, 26 May 2005 22:34:42 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Yvonne Jensen" Reply-To: "Yvonne Jensen" To: phil.oakley@ietf.org Subject: 80 % Discount on All MS 2003 Titles Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:42:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: LindaMueller@teety.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--nXcJXNDVImOtqNIzPAy" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 83e9494d829b08cc3f644ef6ac1b9bd4 aTo ----nXcJXNDVImOtqNIzPAy Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 0

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<= /td>


TOP 10 NEW TITLES

= ON SALE NOW!
	1	Offi= ce Pro 2003
	2	Windows XP= Pro
	3	Adobe Creative S= uite Premium
	4	Norton An= tivirus 2005
	5	Flash MX = 2004
	6	Corel Draw 12
	7	Adobe Acrobat 7.0=
	8	Windows 2003 Server
	9	Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
	10	Adobe Premiere
	See more by this manufacturer=
	&nb= sp;	Microsoft
		A= pple Software
	Cus= tomers also bought
		these other items...

Microsoft Office Professional Edition *2003*
Microsoft
=
Choose:

List Pric= e:		$899.00
Price:<= /b>		$69.99
You Save:		$830.01 (92%)

= Availability: Available for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code:<= /b> ISe229
Media: CD-ROM / Download

System requirements |&nb= sp; Accessories | Other Versions
Feature= s:

Analyze and manage business information using Access databases
Exchange data with other systems usin= g enhanced XML technology

Co= ntrol information sharing rules with enhanced IRM technology
=
Easy-to-use wizards to create e-mail news= letters and printed marketing materials

More than 20 preformatted business reports
<= /span>Sales Rank: #1
Shippin= g: International/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires= : June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Re= view: Based on 1,768 reviews. = Write a review.

Microsoft Windows XP Professio= nal or Longhorn Edition
Microsoft
Choose:
<= select name=3DD1>
<= img height=3D201 src=3Dhttp://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005MOTH.01.LZZ= ZZZZZ.jpg width=3D160 align=3Dleft border=3D0 name=3Dprod_image hspace=3D5= >
List Price: $279.00
Price: = $49.99
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Availability: Ava= ilable for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code: ISe229
Media:<= /b> CD-ROM / Download

System requirements | Accessories | Oth= er Versions
Features:

Designed for busi= nesses of all sizes

Manage d= igital pictures, music, video, DVDs, and more

More security with the ability to encrypt files and fold= ers

Built-in voice, video, a= nd instant messaging support

Integration with Windows servers and management solutions
Sales Rank: #2
Shipping= : International/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires:= June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Rev= iew: Based on 868 reviews. Wri= te a review.

Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
Adobe
<= b class=3Dsmall>Choose:
=

List Price: $599.00
Price: $69.99
You Save: $529.01 (90= %)

Availability: Availa= ble for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code: ISe229
Media:= CD-ROM / Download

System requirements | Accessories | Other = Versions
Features:

Customized workspac= e; save personalized workspace and tool settings; create customized shortc= uts

Unparalleled efficiency= --automate production tasks with built-in or customized scripts
Improved file management, new design p= ossibilities, and a more intuitive way to create for the Web
=
Support for 16-bit images, digital camera= raw data, and non-square pixels

Create or modify photos using painting, drawing, and retouching tools=

Sales Rank: #3
<= b class=3Dtiny>Shipping: International/US or via instant download
= Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
= Average Customer Review: Based on 498 reviews. Write a review.
<= /tr> ----nXcJXNDVImOtqNIzPAy-- From TylerWomack@ansells.co.uk Fri May 27 10:58:16 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA18654 for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [24.182.115.203] (helo=24-182-115-203.dhcp.sprn.tx.charter.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DbgaN-00057q-26 for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:17:44 -0400 Received: from yDs@localhost by bZDg.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Sat, 28 May 2005 02:38:49 +0600 Message-ID: From: "Davis Clemons" Reply-To: "Davis Clemons" To: sacred-archive@ietf.org Subject: Windows XP Pro $49.95, Office 2003 $69.95 XP Pro Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 00:37:49 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: TylerWomack@ansells.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--vougsv5DwMBVyVR" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 83e9494d829b08cc3f644ef6ac1b9bd4 FhBm ----vougsv5DwMBVyVR Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable W
Opt-in Email Special Offer &n= bsp; unsubscribe me

SEARCH

<= /td>

TOP 10 NEW TITLES
=
= ON SALE NOW!
1 Offi= ce Pro 2003
2 Windows XP= Pro
3 Adobe Creative S= uite Premium
4 Norton An= tivirus 2005
5 Flash MX = 2004
6 Corel Draw 12
7 Adobe Acrobat 7.0=
8 Windows 2003 Server
9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
10 Adobe Premiere
See more by this manufacturer=
&nb= sp; Microsoft
A= pple Software
Cus= tomers also bought
these other items...
Microsoft Office Professional Edition *2003*
Microsoft
=
Choose:

List Pric= e: $899.00
Price:<= /b> $69.99
You Save: $830.01 (92%)

= Availability: Available for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code:<= /b> ISe229
Media: CD-ROM / Download

System requirements |&nb= sp; Accessories | Other Versions
Feature= s:

Analyze and manage business information using Access databases
Exchange data with other systems usin= g enhanced XML technology

Co= ntrol information sharing rules with enhanced IRM technology
=
Easy-to-use wizards to create e-mail news= letters and printed marketing materials

More than 20 preformatted business reports
<= /span>Sales Rank: #1
Shippin= g: International/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires= : June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Re= view: Based on 1,768 reviews. = Write a review.

Microsoft Windows XP Professio= nal or Longhorn Edition
Microsoft
Choose:
<= select name=3DD1>
<= img height=3D201 src=3Dhttp://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005MOTH.01.LZZ= ZZZZZ.jpg width=3D160 align=3Dleft border=3D0 name=3Dprod_image hspace=3D5= >
List Price: $279.00
Price: = $49.99
You Save: $229.01 (8= 5%)

Availability: Ava= ilable for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code: ISe229
Media:<= /b> CD-ROM / Download

System requirements | Accessories | Oth= er Versions
Features:

Designed for busi= nesses of all sizes

Manage d= igital pictures, music, video, DVDs, and more

More security with the ability to encrypt files and fold= ers

Built-in voice, video, a= nd instant messaging support

Integration with Windows servers and management solutions
Sales Rank: #2
Shipping= : International/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires:= June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Rev= iew: Based on 868 reviews. Wri= te a review.

Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
Adobe
<= b class=3Dsmall>Choose:
=

List Price: $599.00
Price: $69.99
You Save: $529.01 (90= %)

Availability: Availa= ble for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code: ISe229
Media:= CD-ROM / Download

System requirements | Accessories | Other = Versions
Features:

Customized workspac= e; save personalized workspace and tool settings; create customized shortc= uts

Unparalleled efficiency= --automate production tasks with built-in or customized scripts
Improved file management, new design p= ossibilities, and a more intuitive way to create for the Web
=
Support for 16-bit images, digital camera= raw data, and non-square pixels

Create or modify photos using painting, drawing, and retouching tools=

Sales Rank: #3
<= b class=3Dtiny>Shipping: International/US or via instant download
= Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
= Average Customer Review: Based on 498 reviews. Write a review.
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<= /td>

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=
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<= img height=3D201 src=3Dhttp://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005MOTH.01.LZZ= ZZZZZ.jpg width=3D160 align=3Dleft border=3D0 name=3Dprod_image hspace=3D5= >
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=
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Opt-in Email Special Offer &n= bsp; unsubscribe me
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<= tr vAlign=3Dtop bgColor=3D#333399>

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<= /td>
= <= /tr>=
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Control information sharing r= ules with enhanced IRM technology

Easy-to-use wizards to create e-mail newsletters and printed marketi= ng materials

More than 20 pr= eformatted business reports
Sales Rank: #1
Shipping: International/US or = via instant download
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<= /span>Average Customer Review: Based on= 1,768 reviews. Write a review.

Microsoft Windows XP Professional or Longho= rn Edition
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Choo= se:

List Price: $279.00
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Features:=

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More security with the ability to encrypt files a= nd folders

Built-in voice, v= ideo, and instant messaging support

Integration with Windows servers and management solutions <= /li>
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Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0<= br> Adobe
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Choose:

List Price: $599.00
Price: $69.99
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Coupon Code: ISe229 Media: CD-ROM / Download

System requirements | Accessories | Other Versions
Features= :

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Improved file man= agement, new design possibilities, and a more intuitive way to create for = the Web

Support for 16-bit i= mages, digital camera raw data, and non-square pixels

Create or modify photos using painting, drawing,= and retouching tools

Sal= es Rank: #3
Shipping: International/US or via = instant download
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Review: Based on 498 r= eviews. Write a review.
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------=_NextPart_001_0001_06BF3FA0.202D5DD7-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_A970441D.26962E1D-- From WinnieSelig@ailes.net Fri Jun 10 01:54:40 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA25525 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [220.234.124.58] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dgcp9-0007zr-4D for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:17:01 -0400 Received: from ZIp@localhost by qSy.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:01:59 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Melanie Eubanks" Reply-To: "Melanie Eubanks" To: sacred-archive@ietf.org Subject: All AutoCAD software for cheap Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:00:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: WinnieSelig@ailes.net Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--hZf5rvADjZ448HdTTLNy" X-Spam-Score: 6.4 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: f8184d7d4d1b986353eb58ea3e887935 cx2 ----hZf5rvADjZ448HdTTLNy Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable q
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<= td vAlign=3Dbottom>
TOP 10 NEW TITLES

<= td width=3D4> Microsoft=
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<= td vAlign=3Dtop noWrap>
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= More than 20 preformatted business reports
Sales Rank: #1
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Average Customer= Review: Based on 1,768 reviews. Write a review.

<= td class=3Dsmall vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright height=3D18 width=3D73>= List Price:
Microsoft Windows XP= Professional or Longhorn Edition
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Choose:

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Sales Rank: #3
Shipping:= International/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires:<= /b> June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Revi= ew: Based on 498 reviews. Write a review.
----hZf5rvADjZ448HdTTLNy-- From AndreEnglish@coacher.net Sat Jun 11 05:55:16 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23277 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dh33o-0006nX-Re for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:17:53 -0400 Received: from cpe-24-170-11-96.jam.res.rr.com ([24.170.11.96]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Dh2hx-0001NE-44 for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:55:17 -0400 Received: from EPf@localhost by 8wIt.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:30:08 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Shawn Pierce" Reply-To: "Shawn Pierce" To: sacred-archive@ietf.org Cc: 0420.i-d@ietf.org Subject: All Symantec software for cheap Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:35:08 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: AndreEnglish@coacher.net Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--ZLqwcDWkiFRl51RXLp" X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: bfe538a859d88717fa3c8a6377d62f90 4wL ----ZLqwcDWkiFRl51RXLp Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable T
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SEARCH

<= tr vAlign=3Dtop bgColor=3D#333399>

TOP 10 NEW TITLES
<= /td>
5
= ON SALE NOW!
1 O= ffice Pro 2003
2 Window= s XP Pro
3 Adobe Cre= ative Suite Premium
4 Norton Antivirus 2005
Flash MX 2004
6 Corel Draw 12
7 Adobe = Acrobat 7.0
8 Window= s 2003 Server
9 Alias = Maya 6 Wavefrt
10 Adobe = Premiere
See more= by this manufacturer
<= /td> Microsoft<= /td>
Apple Software
Customers also bought
<= font face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1> these other items...
<= /td>

Microsoft Offi= ce Professional Edition *2003*
Microsoft
Choose= :
&= nbsp;
=
List Price: $899.00
Price: $69.99<= /b>
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System requirements | Accessories | Other Versions
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Exchange data with other systems using enhance= d XML technology

Control inf= ormation sharing rules with enhanced IRM technology

Easy-to-use wizards to create e-mail newsletters a= nd printed marketing materials

More than 20 preformatted business reports
Sales Rank: #1
Shipping: Int= ernational/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires: June= 30th, 2005
Average Customer Review: = Based on 1,768 reviews. Write a= review.

Microsoft Windows XP Professional or = Longhorn Edition
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Choose:
<= /td> <= /a>

List Price: $279.00
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More security with the ability to encrypt f= iles and folders
Built-in vo= ice, video, and instant messaging support

<= font size=3D1>Integration with Windows servers and management solutions
Sales Rank: #2
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Average= Customer Review: Based on 868 reviews. Write a review.

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List Price:<= /td> $599.00
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Unparalleled efficiency--automate production tasks with built-in = or customized scripts

Improv= ed file management, new design possibilities, and a more intuitive way to = create for the Web

Support f= or 16-bit images, digital camera raw data, and non-square pixels
Create or modify photos using paintin= g, drawing, and retouching tools

Sales Rank: #3
Shipping: International= /US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 200= 5
Average Customer Review: B= ased on 498 reviews. Write a review.=
----ZLqwcDWkiFRl51RXLp-- From CarolynErickson@50cents.co.uk Thu Jun 16 08:14:45 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA12230 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ditdc-0002Pz-Iq for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:38:29 -0400 Received: from 243.red-83-35-214.pooles.rima-tde.net ([83.35.214.243]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DisL7-0006eF-RB for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:15:26 -0400 Received: from LANf@localhost by lwS.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:15:57 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Helen Rossi" Reply-To: "Helen Rossi" To: sacred-archive@ietf.org Cc: 0420.i-d@ietf.org Subject: Photoshop CS 8.0 $59.95 Windows Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:14:57 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: CarolynErickson@50cents.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--CaxAtmgGeASurEn4" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 lYPt ----CaxAtmgGeASurEn4 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable T
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SEARCH

=

<= tr vAlign=3Dtop bgColor=3D#333399>

TOP 10 NEW TITLES
<= /td>
= ON SALE NOW!
1 Off= ice Pro 2003
2 Windows = XP Pro
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4 Norto= n Antivirus 2005
5 Fla= sh MX 2004
= 6 Corel Dra= w 12
7 Adobe Acrobat 7.= 0
8 Windows 2003 Serve= r
9 Alias Maya 6 Wavef= rt
10 Adobe Premiere
See more by this m= anufacturer
Microsoft
A= pple Software
<= /td> Customers also bought
these other= items...
=

Microsoft Office Professional E= dition *2003*
= Microsoft
<= table border=3D0>Choose:
<= a href=3Dhttp://ipoemed.com/?a>
<= /tr>
List Price: $899.00
Price: $69.99
Y= ou Save: $830.01 (92%)

Availability: Available for INSTANT download= !
Coupon Code: ISe229
Media: CD-ROM / Download
<= /span>
System requ= irements | Accessories= | Other Versions
Features:
Analyze and manage business information usin= g Access databases
Exchange = data with other systems using enhanced XML technology

Control information sharing rules with enhanced = IRM technology

Easy-to-use w= izards to create e-mail newsletters and printed marketing materials

More than 20 preformatted business= reports
Sales Rank: #1=
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Average Customer Review: Based on 1,768 reviews. Write a review.

Microsoft Windows XP Professional or Longhorn Edition
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=
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List Price: $279.00
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Availability: Available for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code: ISe229
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System requirements= | Accessories |= Other Versions
= Features:

Designed for businesses of all sizes
=
Manage digital pictures, music, video, D= VDs, and more

More security = with the ability to encrypt files and folders

Built-in voice, video, and instant messaging support

Integration with Windows server= s and management solutions
Sales= Rank: #2
Shipping: International/US or via in= stant download
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
= Average Customer Review: Based on 868 r= eviews. Write a review.

Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
Adobe
=
Choose:

<= table cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0 height=3D44 width=3D190><= tr> List Price: $599.00
Price: $69.99
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Availability: Available for INSTANT download!<= br> Coupon Code: ISe229
Media: CD-ROM / Download

System requir= ements | Accessories&n= bsp; | Other Versions
=
Features:
<= li class=3Dsmall>Customized workspace; save personalized wo= rkspace and tool settings; create customized shortcuts
Unparalleled efficiency--automate production t= asks with built-in or customized scripts

Improved file management, new design possibilities, and a mor= e intuitive way to create for the Web

Support for 16-bit images, digital camera raw data, and non-squa= re pixels

Create or modify p= hotos using painting, drawing, and retouching tools

Sales Rank: #3
Shipping= : International/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires:= June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Rev= iew: Based on 498 reviews. Wr= ite a review.
= ----CaxAtmgGeASurEn4-- From CarolynErickson@50cents.co.uk Thu Jun 16 08:15:24 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA12347 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [218.48.44.173] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiteD-0002RM-1l for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:39:08 -0400 Received: from LANf@localhost by lwS.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:15:57 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Helen Rossi" Reply-To: "Helen Rossi" To: sacred-archive@ietf.org Cc: 0420.i-d@ietf.org Subject: Photoshop CS 8.0 $59.95 Windows Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:14:57 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: CarolynErickson@50cents.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--CaxAtmgGeASurEn4" X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 lYPt ----CaxAtmgGeASurEn4 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable T
Opt-in Email Special Offer &n= bsp; unsubscribe me

SEARCH

=

<= tr vAlign=3Dtop bgColor=3D#333399>

TOP 10 NEW TITLES
<= /td>
= ON SALE NOW!
1 Off= ice Pro 2003
2 Windows = XP Pro
3 Adobe Creativ= e Suite Premium
4 Norto= n Antivirus 2005
5 Fla= sh MX 2004
= 6 Corel Dra= w 12
7 Adobe Acrobat 7.= 0
8 Windows 2003 Serve= r
9 Alias Maya 6 Wavef= rt
10 Adobe Premiere
See more by this m= anufacturer
Microsoft
A= pple Software
<= /td> Customers also bought
these other= items...
=

Microsoft Office Professional E= dition *2003*
= Microsoft
<= table border=3D0>Choose:
<= a href=3Dhttp://ipoemed.com/?a>
<= /tr>
List Price: $899.00
Price: $69.99
Y= ou Save: $830.01 (92%)

Availability: Available for INSTANT download= !
Coupon Code: ISe229
Media: CD-ROM / Download
<= /span>
System requ= irements | Accessories= | Other Versions
Features:
Analyze and manage business information usin= g Access databases
Exchange = data with other systems using enhanced XML technology

Control information sharing rules with enhanced = IRM technology

Easy-to-use w= izards to create e-mail newsletters and printed marketing materials

More than 20 preformatted business= reports
Sales Rank: #1=
Shipping: International/US or via instant downloa= d
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Review: Based on 1,768 reviews. Write a review.

Microsoft Windows XP Professional or Longhorn Edition
Microsoft

=
Choose:

List Price: $279.00
Price: $49.99
You Save= : $229.01 (85%)

Availability: Available for INSTANT download!
Coupon Code: ISe229
Media: CD-ROM / Download
System requirements= | Accessories |= Other Versions
= Features:

Designed for businesses of all sizes
=
Manage digital pictures, music, video, D= VDs, and more

More security = with the ability to encrypt files and folders

Built-in voice, video, and instant messaging support

Integration with Windows server= s and management solutions
Sales= Rank: #2
Shipping: International/US or via in= stant download
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
= Average Customer Review: Based on 868 r= eviews. Write a review.

Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
Adobe
=
Choose:

<= table cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0 height=3D44 width=3D190><= tr> List Price: $599.00
Price: $69.99
Yo= u Save: $529.01 (90%)

Availability: Available for INSTANT download!<= br> Coupon Code: ISe229
Media: CD-ROM / Download

System requir= ements | Accessories&n= bsp; | Other Versions
=
Features:
<= li class=3Dsmall>Customized workspace; save personalized wo= rkspace and tool settings; create customized shortcuts
Unparalleled efficiency--automate production t= asks with built-in or customized scripts

Improved file management, new design possibilities, and a mor= e intuitive way to create for the Web

Support for 16-bit images, digital camera raw data, and non-squa= re pixels

Create or modify p= hotos using painting, drawing, and retouching tools

Sales Rank: #3
Shipping= : International/US or via instant download
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----LeAFh9OEU4c9ZreI-- From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 20 12:21:57 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14310 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KGExnE059841; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KGExdc059840; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:14:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.tcd.ie (smtp3.tcd.ie [134.226.1.158]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KGEvlY059682 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.smtp3 (smtp3.tcd.ie [134.226.1.158]) by smtp3.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id 29E4F14C013; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:14:45 +0100 (IST) Received: from smtp3.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.158]) by smtp3.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.158]) with SMTP (gateway) id A00C17EF6F0; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:14:44 +0100 Received: from [134.226.36.26] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by smtp3.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27AF14C013; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:14:44 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42B6EC96.7070303@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:19:34 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-sacred@imc.org Cc: magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: New work for sacred working group? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.768) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: smtp3.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A10C17EF6F0 Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear sacred WG, Magnus and I have requested a slot for the sacred WG at the upcoming Paris IETF meeting [1]. There are three things to discuss (see below). One possible outcome is that we reawaken this WG to do some work. Formally, this would probably require a charter update. The outcome of the discussions could also be a decision not to take on any further SACRED work at this point. In all likelihood, this would mean that the SACRED working group will be shut down. Hopefully, we can come to consensus on this between now and a few weeks after the Paris meeting. Regardless of whether or not you intend coming to Paris, We'd encourage you to let the list know how you think we ought proceed, so that we are able to start that meeting with some idea of the level of interest and the range of opinions, (or else, we can cancel the meeting if there's no interest), So, read on...and comment to the list! Stephen & Magnus. Item 1: SACRED has always been in need of a strong password- based mechanism for download of credentials. Early on, the WG considered [2] using SPEKE for this. However, there was no concensus for this approach, at least partly due to the, at the time, unclear IPR situation. Over the last couple of months, Magnus and I have been in touch with the holders of the SPEKE patent, Phoenix Technologies [3], who have now made a generic IPR declaration to the IETF [4]. Phoenix would like the opportunity to present their technology and discuss its use in sacred. Note that while the current, generic declation is basically RAND, this does not necessarily imply that the terms for the use of SPEKE for sacred would be exactly the same. In our discussions with Phoenix so far, they appear to have made serious attempts to learn how to be "IETF-friendly" and they are coming to the meeting to explain their technology and position and to learn whether and/or how they can make use of SPEKE attractive in IETF-concensus terms. - If there is WG concensus then we could work to improve the sacred protocol [5] by incorporating SPEKE. Item 2: Independently of the discussions with Phoenix Technologues, Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman, who where also deeply involved in the early stages of this working group, have suggested a scheme they themselves invented which pre-dates SPEKE. Their email below summarises their scheme and its history. - If there is WG concensus then we could work to improve the sacred protocol by incorporating Radia and Charlie's scheme. Item 3: RSA Security has drafted a description [6] of how to (more or less) run the current sacred protocol using HTTP instead of BEEP as a substrate. - Were there to be WG concensus on doing work on items 1 or 2, then the WG might consider improving the protocol by changing the substrate from BEEP to HTTP. Note that in our opinion, item 3 alone is not sufficient reason to re-charter the WG. Here's a suggested 1-hour meeting agenda (we may get an additional 30 minutes in which case each item would get proportionally longer time): - Introductions (5) - Item 3: HTTP as a SACRED substrate (10) - Item 2: Radia's & Charlie's scheme (15) - Item 1: Phoenix presentation on SPEKE (15) - Discussion on new work, possible re-chartering (15) References: [1] http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-63.html [2] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/02mar/203.htm [3] http://www.phoenix.com/ [4] https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_detail_show.cgi?&ipr_id=587 [5] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3767.txt [6] ftp://ftp.rsasecurity.com/pub/rsalabs/ietf/sacred/draft-richards-sacred-http-XX.txt Charlie Kaufman wrote: > I agree with this technical and historical summary. > [...] > > --Charlie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Radia Perlman [mailto:Radia.Perlman@sun.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:49 AM > To: magnus@rsasecurity.com; stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > Cc: Charlie Kaufman > Subject: A possible credentials download protocol > > Charlie...correct me if I get any of the technical or historical details > > wrong here. Perhaps you should > reply to all, even if there are no errors, saying "I agree". > > *************** > In the first edition of the book "Network Security" published in March > 1995, on page 252, there > is a protocol that although we claim in the book it is "Bellovin and > Merritt's Second Scheme" was actually > a protocol Charlie inadvertently invented, because he had misremembered > augmented EKE. > > The diagram in the book of Charlie's protocol does two things: it does > mutual authentication, and also > downloads Alice's credential (her private key). > > For the sacred WG, we could do just the credential download portion of > the protocol. That means removing > messages 3 and 5 (the ones in which the client Alice authenticates to > Bob), and we can certainly also > remove the challenge field from message 2 (where Bob sends Alice a > challenge to authenticate with). > > We are left with a 2 message protocol that does no authentication by > Alice to Bob. Bob has no idea, after > the exchange, whether the true Alice, knowing the password, has > successfully downloaded the credential. > If it is an imposter, the imposter will obtain garbage. Bob can't tell > the difference. > > However, for the purpose of the sacred WG, we do not need an > authentication protocol. All we need is > a credential download protocol. > > Anyway, the protocol I'm proposing is a 2-message protocol that looks > like this: > > Bob (the server) has the following two pieces of information: > > . W=hash of Alice's password > . Y=credential (which is Alice's private key encrypted with her > password). > > In the protocol, Alice and Bob do a Diffie-Hellman exchange, encrypted > with W, and Bob sends > Y encrypted with the resulting Diffie-Hellman key. So the protocol is: > > Alice and Bob each choose a random number A, and B, respectively. The > Diffie-Hellman parameters > are g and p. > > Alice to Bob: {g^A mod p}encrypted with W > Bob to Alice: {g^B mod p} encrypted with W, {Y} encrypted with g^AB > > ********* > The protocol in the book had an additional challenge, R, and was: > > 1: Alice to Bob: {g^A mod p}W > 2: Bob to ALice: {g^B mod p}W, R > 3: Alice to Bob: {R} encrypted with g^AB mod p > 4: Bob to ALice: {Y} encrypted with g^AB > 5: Alice to Bob: R signed by Alice's private key > > So I'm proposing removing messages 3 and 5, combining messages 2 and 4, > and removing the field "R" > from message 2. > > > > From CarolynChertoff@adultvideostreaming.co.uk Tue Jun 21 16:08:56 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29279 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [221.3.102.84] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkpQr-0000Nd-3w for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:33:44 -0400 Received: from 24.8.34.34 by 221.3.102.84; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:23:19 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Allison Weinstein" Reply-To: "Allison Weinstein" To: sacred-archive@ietf.org Cc: 0420.i-d@ietf.org Subject: AutoCAD Products available for Download Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:28:19 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.1 X-Sender: CarolynChertoff@adultvideostreaming.co.uk Organization: . 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----jmOvG65yrFchXx2EvHir-- From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 07:44:21 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA10057 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RBaVua016622; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RBaV6F016621; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:36:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RBaThq016542 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id 80DC0680F3; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:36:15 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A029C07242C; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:36:15 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607EC680FA; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:36:15 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42BFE5D8.7000109@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:41:12 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-sacred@imc.org Cc: Stephen Farrell , magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: <42B6EC96.7070303@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <42B6EC96.7070303@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.774) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A129C07242C Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does the lack of response mean that there's no longer much interest in using schemes like SPEKE for credential download or that no-one's reading this list anymore? If the former, please say so. Stephen. Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Dear sacred WG, > > Magnus and I have requested a slot for the sacred WG at > the upcoming Paris IETF meeting [1]. > > There are three things to discuss (see below). One possible > outcome is that we reawaken this WG to do some work. Formally, > this would probably require a charter update. The outcome > of the discussions could also be a decision not to take on > any further SACRED work at this point. In all likelihood, > this would mean that the SACRED working group will be shut > down. > > Hopefully, we can come to consensus on this between now and > a few weeks after the Paris meeting. > > Regardless of whether or not you intend coming to Paris, We'd > encourage you to let the list know how you think we ought > proceed, so that we are able to start that meeting with some > idea of the level of interest and the range of opinions, (or > else, we can cancel the meeting if there's no interest), > > So, read on...and comment to the list! > > Stephen & Magnus. > > > Item 1: SACRED has always been in need of a strong password- > based mechanism for download of credentials. Early on, the WG > considered [2] using SPEKE for this. However, there was no > concensus for this approach, at least partly due to the, at the > time, unclear IPR situation. Over the last couple of months, > Magnus and I have been in touch with the holders of the SPEKE > patent, Phoenix Technologies [3], who have now made a generic > IPR declaration to the IETF [4]. Phoenix would like the opportunity > to present their technology and discuss its use in sacred. Note > that while the current, generic declation is basically RAND, this > does not necessarily imply that the terms for the use of SPEKE for > sacred would be exactly the same. In our discussions with Phoenix > so far, they appear to have made serious attempts to learn how to > be "IETF-friendly" and they are coming to the meeting to explain > their technology and position and to learn whether and/or how they > can make use of SPEKE attractive in IETF-concensus terms. > > - If there is WG concensus then we could work to improve > the sacred protocol [5] by incorporating SPEKE. > > Item 2: Independently of the discussions with Phoenix Technologues, > Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman, who where also deeply involved in > the early stages of this working group, have suggested a scheme they > themselves invented which pre-dates SPEKE. Their email below > summarises their scheme and its history. > > - If there is WG concensus then we could work to improve > the sacred protocol by incorporating Radia and Charlie's > scheme. > > Item 3: RSA Security has drafted a description [6] of how to (more > or less) run the current sacred protocol using HTTP instead of BEEP > as a substrate. > > - Were there to be WG concensus on doing work on items 1 or > 2, then the WG might consider improving the protocol by > changing the substrate from BEEP to HTTP. Note that in > our opinion, item 3 alone is not sufficient reason to > re-charter the WG. > > Here's a suggested 1-hour meeting agenda (we may get an additional 30 > minutes in which case each item would get proportionally longer time): > > - Introductions (5) > - Item 3: HTTP as a SACRED substrate (10) > - Item 2: Radia's & Charlie's scheme (15) > - Item 1: Phoenix presentation on SPEKE (15) > - Discussion on new work, possible re-chartering (15) > > References: > > [1] http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-63.html > [2] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/02mar/203.htm > [3] http://www.phoenix.com/ > [4] https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_detail_show.cgi?&ipr_id=587 > [5] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3767.txt > [6] > ftp://ftp.rsasecurity.com/pub/rsalabs/ietf/sacred/draft-richards-sacred-http-XX.txt > > > > > Charlie Kaufman wrote: > >> I agree with this technical and historical summary. >> > [...] > >> >> --Charlie >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Radia Perlman [mailto:Radia.Perlman@sun.com] Sent: Wednesday, >> June 15, 2005 9:49 AM >> To: magnus@rsasecurity.com; stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie >> Cc: Charlie Kaufman >> Subject: A possible credentials download protocol >> >> Charlie...correct me if I get any of the technical or historical details >> >> wrong here. Perhaps you should >> reply to all, even if there are no errors, saying "I agree". >> >> *************** >> In the first edition of the book "Network Security" published in March >> 1995, on page 252, there >> is a protocol that although we claim in the book it is "Bellovin and >> Merritt's Second Scheme" was actually >> a protocol Charlie inadvertently invented, because he had >> misremembered augmented EKE. >> >> The diagram in the book of Charlie's protocol does two things: it does >> mutual authentication, and also >> downloads Alice's credential (her private key). >> >> For the sacred WG, we could do just the credential download portion of >> the protocol. That means removing >> messages 3 and 5 (the ones in which the client Alice authenticates to >> Bob), and we can certainly also >> remove the challenge field from message 2 (where Bob sends Alice a >> challenge to authenticate with). >> >> We are left with a 2 message protocol that does no authentication by >> Alice to Bob. Bob has no idea, after >> the exchange, whether the true Alice, knowing the password, has >> successfully downloaded the credential. >> If it is an imposter, the imposter will obtain garbage. Bob can't tell >> the difference. >> >> However, for the purpose of the sacred WG, we do not need an >> authentication protocol. All we need is >> a credential download protocol. >> >> Anyway, the protocol I'm proposing is a 2-message protocol that looks >> like this: >> >> Bob (the server) has the following two pieces of information: >> >> . W=hash of Alice's password >> . Y=credential (which is Alice's private key encrypted with her >> password). >> >> In the protocol, Alice and Bob do a Diffie-Hellman exchange, encrypted >> with W, and Bob sends >> Y encrypted with the resulting Diffie-Hellman key. So the protocol is: >> >> Alice and Bob each choose a random number A, and B, respectively. The >> Diffie-Hellman parameters >> are g and p. >> >> Alice to Bob: {g^A mod p}encrypted with W >> Bob to Alice: {g^B mod p} encrypted with W, {Y} encrypted with g^AB >> >> ********* >> The protocol in the book had an additional challenge, R, and was: >> >> 1: Alice to Bob: {g^A mod p}W >> 2: Bob to ALice: {g^B mod p}W, R >> 3: Alice to Bob: {R} encrypted with g^AB mod p >> 4: Bob to ALice: {Y} encrypted with g^AB >> 5: Alice to Bob: R signed by Alice's private key >> >> So I'm proposing removing messages 3 and 5, combining messages 2 and >> 4, and removing the field "R" >> from message 2. >> >> >> >> > > From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 07:55:03 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA10949 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RBnpY5022810; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:49:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RBnp5w022809; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:49:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (zeppo.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.14]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RBnohx022793 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F00A342F4; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:49 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16792-07; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:49 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F2A342CB; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:47 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2529C37745; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:47 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Dms7f-0001uD-00; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:55 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: ietf-sacred@imc.org, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? Cc: magnus@rsasecurity.com In-Reply-To: <42BFE5D8.7000109@cs.tcd.ie> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:55 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Stephen Farrell writes: >Does the lack of response mean that there's no longer much interest in using >schemes like SPEKE for credential download or that no-one's reading this list >anymore? I'm reading it, but purely in passive mode. In theory I'd be strongly opposed to the use of any crippled/patented technology in Sacred (particularly when there are unencumbered alternatives available), but since I'm not an implementor it's really just a personal opinion. Peter. From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 09:09:28 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18441 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RD0Tek058585; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:00:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RD0TZk058583; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:00:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RD0RDw058483 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:00:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id D4AB8680F3; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:00:19 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A04407CE652; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:00:19 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73AE680F3; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:00:19 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42BFF98A.8080007@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:05:14 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann Cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org, magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.774) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A14407CE652 Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, Peter Gutmann wrote: > I'm reading it, but purely in passive mode. In theory I'd be strongly opposed > to the use of any crippled/patented technology in Sacred (particularly when > there are unencumbered alternatives available), but since I'm not an > implementor it's really just a personal opinion. Well, ignoring Radia & Charlie's proposal for the moment, I'm not sure that we really do have an unencumbered equivalent, at least at the "mechanism" level (if you know what I mean), but I do take your point about opposing encumbrances generally. I guess when considering SPEKE, partly we're trying to see whether the Phoenix folks end up with an IPR position that would garner enough suppoor that we get WG consensus to reactivate this WG...or not...and IMO if more people can explicitly say what they'd find (un)acceptable on the list, then that might well influence the outcome (or at least speed things up somewhat:-) Stephen. From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 09:09:29 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18459 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RD3R2u059853; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RD3RxM059852; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:03:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yxa.extundo.com (root@178.230.13.217.in-addr.dgcsystems.net [217.13.230.178]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RD3Nrj059816 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jas@extundo.com) Received: from latte.josefsson.org (c494102a.s-bi.bostream.se [217.215.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by yxa.extundo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id j5RD32Qq027946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:03:04 +0200 From: Simon Josefsson To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Cc: magnus@rsasecurity.com, ietf-sacred@imc.org, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: <42BFE5D8.7000109@cs.tcd.ie> OpenPGP: id=B565716F; url=http://josefsson.org/key.txt X-Hashcash: 1:21:050627:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie::h/UL4DgVKVaZxmKW:4guM X-Hashcash: 1:21:050627:ietf-sacred@imc.org::Wig89ixPqD3bgMzk:9yRh X-Hashcash: 1:21:050627:magnus@rsasecurity.com::mPm+La9CAZKSzhGF:5giw X-Hashcash: 1:21:050627:pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz::4q/jAD6s18ZKWqKv:ChhM Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:02:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Peter Gutmann's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:55 +1200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=failed version=3.0.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on yxa-iv X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.84, clamav-milter version 0.84e on yxa.extundo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) writes: > Stephen Farrell writes: > >>Does the lack of response mean that there's no longer much interest in using >>schemes like SPEKE for credential download or that no-one's reading this list >>anymore? > > I'm reading it, but purely in passive mode. In theory I'd be strongly opposed > to the use of any crippled/patented technology in Sacred (particularly when > there are unencumbered alternatives available), but since I'm not an > implementor it's really just a personal opinion. Which unencumbered alternatives are you thinking of? It appears to me as if the security community in IETF can't offer a good password based security protocol. Anything beyond TLS+PLAIN seem to me be either surrounded with IPR concerns (SPEKE, SRP); or incredible poorly designed and implemented (DIGEST-MD5); or deprecated (CRAM-MD5); or too complex to allow a reasonable implementations (X.509, CMS); or too experimental (TLS PSK); or burdened by history (Kerberos), to be applicable. Of course, this is merely another personal opinion as I don't have a SACRED implementation either. (I'd like to write one though... :)) Cheers, Simon From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 09:17:04 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18913 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDBBg9063704; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:11:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RDBBj6063702; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:11:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (groucho.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDBAgD063684 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:11:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7569F34231; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:11:09 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14130-08; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:11:09 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpa.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF35834729; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:11:04 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC24437745; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:11:04 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DmtOL-0001wp-00; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:11:13 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: jas@extundo.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? Cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org, magnus@rsasecurity.com, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:11:13 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Simon Josefsson writes: >Which unencumbered alternatives are you thinking of? TLS-PSK. >Anything beyond TLS+PLAIN seem to me be either surrounded with IPR concerns >(SPEKE, SRP); or incredible poorly designed and implemented (DIGEST-MD5); or >deprecated (CRAM-MD5); or too complex to allow a reasonable implementations >(X.509, CMS); or too experimental (TLS PSK); or burdened by history >(Kerberos), to be applicable. Hmm, I'd hardly call a standards-track TLS RFC "experimental". Given the strong support there is for this from low-powered device vendors, and the fact that it's a trivial mod to TLS, I'd hope there'd be good support for this in the future. Peter. From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 09:38:16 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA21193 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:38:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDXlKw076224; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RDXlnP076223; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:33:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDXjQA076178 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:33:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E5AE680AD; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:33:40 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A0547D27BCA; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:33:40 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12085680AD; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:33:40 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42C0015B.30204@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:38:35 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann Cc: jas@extundo.com, ietf-sacred@imc.org, magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.774) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A1547D27BCA Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, Peter Gutmann wrote: > Simon Josefsson writes: > > >>Which unencumbered alternatives are you thinking of? > > TLS-PSK. Haven't read that (not yet an RFC btw) myself, but I now plan to do so. I guess I'd have to question the "equivalence" part here since tls-psk-09 [1] says: " It is also possible to use the SRP (Secure Remote Password) ciphersuites for shared secret authentication [SRP]. SRP was designed to be used with passwords, and incorporates protection against dictionary attacks. " So I would guess that for sacred, TLS-PSK isn't an unencumbered equivalent since offline dictionary attacks are a high priority here. Or am I misreading something? Stephen. [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tls-psk-09.txt > > >>Anything beyond TLS+PLAIN seem to me be either surrounded with IPR concerns >>(SPEKE, SRP); or incredible poorly designed and implemented (DIGEST-MD5); or >>deprecated (CRAM-MD5); or too complex to allow a reasonable implementations >>(X.509, CMS); or too experimental (TLS PSK); or burdened by history >>(Kerberos), to be applicable. > > > Hmm, I'd hardly call a standards-track TLS RFC "experimental". Given the > strong support there is for this from low-powered device vendors, and the fact > that it's a trivial mod to TLS, I'd hope there'd be good support for this in > the future. > > Peter. > > From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 12:01:53 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05867 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RFummJ007509; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:56:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RFumM8007508; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RFulqu007480 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:56:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C13B6803B; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:56:42 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A00F0B14FEC; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:56:42 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99E86803B; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:56:41 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42C022E2.60101@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:01:38 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Josefsson Cc: Peter Gutmann , magnus@rsasecurity.com, ietf-sacred@imc.org Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: <42BFE5D8.7000109@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.775) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A10F0B14FEC Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Simon, > It appears to me as if the security community in IETF can't offer a > good password based security protocol. > > Anything beyond TLS+PLAIN seem to me be either surrounded with IPR > concerns (SPEKE, SRP); [...] Would it be fair to take that as meaning you'd be supportive of new work being done here on things like SPEKE if it were not "surrounded by IPR concerns"? Stephen. From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 12:02:35 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06006 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RFuVF4007442; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RFuV4T007441; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (harpo.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.13]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RFuROg007425 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C1C343B8; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:56:26 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12469-25; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:56:26 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpc.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0B734020; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:56:22 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id A236F37745; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:56:22 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DmvyK-0002cL-00; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:56:32 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? Cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org, jas@extundo.com, magnus@rsasecurity.com In-Reply-To: <42C0015B.30204@cs.tcd.ie> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:56:32 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Stephen Farrell writes: >So I would guess that for sacred, TLS-PSK isn't an unencumbered equivalent >since offline dictionary attacks are a high priority here. Or am I misreading >something? Oh, that's only if you use the weakest (most lightweight) form of PSK, with the entire shared secret being the PSK. In this form it's assumed that you'd be using a high-entropy key rather than just a password. The stronger (but more heavyweight) forms use a standard RSA or DH exchange (alongside the PSK data), so this isn't an issue. Note that even the most heavyweight form, DHE + PSK, only has the same overhead as the SPEKE/SRP/etc-type protcols. Peter. From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 12:09:57 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07168 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:09:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RG47uC008671; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RG47mb008670; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:04:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu (mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.2.28]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RG45cH008663 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:04:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jbasney@ncsa.uiuc.edu) X-Envelope-From: jbasney@ncsa.uiuc.edu Received: from ncsa.uiuc.edu (corduroy.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.96.185]) by mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j5RG3Bm12587; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:03:11 -0500 Message-Id: <200506271603.j5RG3Bm12587@mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu> To: Stephen Farrell cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org, magnus@rsasecurity.com In-Reply-To: Message from Stephen Farrell of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:41:12 BST." <42BFE5D8.7000109@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: MH-E 7.82; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.50.1 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:03:09 -0500 From: Jim Basney X-NCSA-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the help@ncsa.uiuc.edu for more information X-NCSA-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I personally have limited interest in schemes like SPEKE for credential download right now, but maybe I'm missing the practical benefits. I find it workable to include CA certificates for TLS in a (trusted, signed) SACRED client-side software distribution. My interest is primarily in using existing site-wide authentication mechanisms (via SASL, GSSAPI, PAM, etc.) for retrieving PKI credentials, for single sign-on and ease of administration, and it's not clear to me how to integrate SPEKE into this type of environment. I don't want another password verifier database to manage or another password to remember. The #1 concern I hear about lately is client-side theft of passwords (and other long-lived secrets) from keystroke loggers, trojans, etc., and I'm not sure how SPEKE helps me with that. We're addressing this concern with one-time passwords and short-lived session credentials (HTTP cookies, Kerberos tickets, X.509 proxy certificates, etc.). We currently support SRP authentication in addition to TLS+DIGEST-MD5 in our SACRED implementation (http://sacred.sf.net/ -- comments, bug reports, interop testers, contributors welcome). Getting SASL-SRP working with BEEP has been an adventure. I hope to write-up our implementation experiences sometime soon. Regards, Jim Stephen Farrell wrote: > Does the lack of response mean that there's no longer much > interest in using schemes like SPEKE for credential download > or that no-one's reading this list anymore? > > If the former, please say so. > > Stephen. > > Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > Dear sacred WG, > > Magnus and I have requested a slot for the sacred WG at > > the upcoming Paris IETF meeting [1]. > > There are three things to discuss (see below). One possible > > outcome is that we reawaken this WG to do some work. Formally, > > this would probably require a charter update. The outcome > > of the discussions could also be a decision not to take on > > any further SACRED work at this point. In all likelihood, > > this would mean that the SACRED working group will be shut > > down. > > Hopefully, we can come to consensus on this between now and > > a few weeks after the Paris meeting. > > Regardless of whether or not you intend coming to Paris, We'd > > encourage you to let the list know how you think we ought > > proceed, so that we are able to start that meeting with some > > idea of the level of interest and the range of opinions, (or > > else, we can cancel the meeting if there's no interest), > > So, read on...and comment to the list! > > Stephen & Magnus. > > Item 1: SACRED has always been in need of a strong password- > > based mechanism for download of credentials. Early on, the WG > > considered [2] using SPEKE for this. However, there was no > > concensus for this approach, at least partly due to the, at the > > time, unclear IPR situation. Over the last couple of months, > > Magnus and I have been in touch with the holders of the SPEKE > > patent, Phoenix Technologies [3], who have now made a generic > > IPR declaration to the IETF [4]. Phoenix would like the opportunity > > to present their technology and discuss its use in sacred. Note > > that while the current, generic declation is basically RAND, this > > does not necessarily imply that the terms for the use of SPEKE for > > sacred would be exactly the same. In our discussions with Phoenix > > so far, they appear to have made serious attempts to learn how to > > be "IETF-friendly" and they are coming to the meeting to explain > > their technology and position and to learn whether and/or how they > > can make use of SPEKE attractive in IETF-concensus terms. > > - If there is WG concensus then we could work to improve > > the sacred protocol [5] by incorporating SPEKE. > > Item 2: Independently of the discussions with Phoenix Technologues, > > Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman, who where also deeply involved in > > the early stages of this working group, have suggested a scheme they > > themselves invented which pre-dates SPEKE. Their email below > > summarises their scheme and its history. > > - If there is WG concensus then we could work to improve > > the sacred protocol by incorporating Radia and Charlie's > > scheme. > > Item 3: RSA Security has drafted a description [6] of how to (more > > or less) run the current sacred protocol using HTTP instead of BEEP > > as a substrate. > > - Were there to be WG concensus on doing work on items 1 or > > 2, then the WG might consider improving the protocol by > > changing the substrate from BEEP to HTTP. Note that in > > our opinion, item 3 alone is not sufficient reason to > > re-charter the WG. > > Here's a suggested 1-hour meeting agenda (we may get an additional > > 30 > > minutes in which case each item would get proportionally longer time): > > - Introductions (5) > > - Item 3: HTTP as a SACRED substrate (10) > > - Item 2: Radia's & Charlie's scheme (15) > > - Item 1: Phoenix presentation on SPEKE (15) > > - Discussion on new work, possible re-chartering (15) > > References: > > [1] http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-63.html > > [2] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/02mar/203.htm > > [3] http://www.phoenix.com/ > > [4] https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_detail_show.cgi?&ipr_id=587 > > [5] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3767.txt > > [6] > > ftp://ftp.rsasecurity.com/pub/rsalabs/ietf/sacred/draft-richards-sacred-http-XX.txt > > Charlie Kaufman wrote: > > > >> I agree with this technical and historical summary. > >> > > [...] > > > >> > >> --Charlie > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Radia Perlman [mailto:Radia.Perlman@sun.com] Sent: Wednesday, > >> June 15, 2005 9:49 AM > >> To: magnus@rsasecurity.com; stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > >> Cc: Charlie Kaufman > >> Subject: A possible credentials download protocol > >> > >> Charlie...correct me if I get any of the technical or historical details > >> > >> wrong here. Perhaps you should > >> reply to all, even if there are no errors, saying "I agree". > >> > >> *************** > >> In the first edition of the book "Network Security" published in > >> March 1995, on page 252, there > >> is a protocol that although we claim in the book it is "Bellovin > >> and Merritt's Second Scheme" was actually > >> a protocol Charlie inadvertently invented, because he had > >> misremembered augmented EKE. > >> > >> The diagram in the book of Charlie's protocol does two things: it > >> does mutual authentication, and also > >> downloads Alice's credential (her private key). > >> > >> For the sacred WG, we could do just the credential download portion > >> of the protocol. That means removing > >> messages 3 and 5 (the ones in which the client Alice authenticates > >> to Bob), and we can certainly also > >> remove the challenge field from message 2 (where Bob sends Alice a > >> challenge to authenticate with). > >> > >> We are left with a 2 message protocol that does no authentication > >> by Alice to Bob. Bob has no idea, after > >> the exchange, whether the true Alice, knowing the password, has > >> successfully downloaded the credential. > >> If it is an imposter, the imposter will obtain garbage. Bob can't > >> tell the difference. > >> > >> However, for the purpose of the sacred WG, we do not need an > >> authentication protocol. All we need is > >> a credential download protocol. > >> > >> Anyway, the protocol I'm proposing is a 2-message protocol that > >> looks like this: > >> > >> Bob (the server) has the following two pieces of information: > >> > >> . W=hash of Alice's password > >> . Y=credential (which is Alice's private key encrypted with her > >> password). > >> > >> In the protocol, Alice and Bob do a Diffie-Hellman exchange, > >> encrypted with W, and Bob sends > >> Y encrypted with the resulting Diffie-Hellman key. So the protocol is: > >> > >> Alice and Bob each choose a random number A, and B, > >> respectively. The Diffie-Hellman parameters > >> are g and p. > >> > >> Alice to Bob: {g^A mod p}encrypted with W > >> Bob to Alice: {g^B mod p} encrypted with W, {Y} encrypted with g^AB > >> > >> ********* > >> The protocol in the book had an additional challenge, R, and was: > >> > >> 1: Alice to Bob: {g^A mod p}W > >> 2: Bob to ALice: {g^B mod p}W, R > >> 3: Alice to Bob: {R} encrypted with g^AB mod p > >> 4: Bob to ALice: {Y} encrypted with g^AB > >> 5: Alice to Bob: R signed by Alice's private key > >> > >> So I'm proposing removing messages 3 and 5, combining messages 2 > >> and 4, and removing the field "R" > >> from message 2. From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 12:10:32 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07271 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RG6Ovn009123; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RG6O90009122; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:06:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yxa.extundo.com (root@178.230.13.217.in-addr.dgcsystems.net [217.13.230.178]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RG6NJQ009094 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jas@extundo.com) Received: from latte.josefsson.org (c494102a.s-bi.bostream.se [217.215.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by yxa.extundo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id j5RG67CV009025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:06:08 +0200 From: Simon Josefsson To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Peter Gutmann , magnus@rsasecurity.com, ietf-sacred@imc.org Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: <42BFE5D8.7000109@cs.tcd.ie> <42C022E2.60101@cs.tcd.ie> OpenPGP: id=B565716F; url=http://josefsson.org/key.txt X-Hashcash: 1:21:050627:pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz::pIlCb/EOM2xsv8Cd:0n2B X-Hashcash: 1:21:050627:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie::ScYjorcriAr1fOEd:0b1d X-Hashcash: 1:21:050627:ietf-sacred@imc.org::NBnXp+7dJOm0fezG:5NNQ X-Hashcash: 1:21:050627:magnus@rsasecurity.com::1qk1g8nvZzh2xJ59:7rsB Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:05:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: <42C022E2.60101@cs.tcd.ie> (Stephen Farrell's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:01:38 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=failed version=3.0.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on yxa-iv X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.84, clamav-milter version 0.84e on yxa.extundo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Stephen Farrell writes: > Hi Simon, > >> It appears to me as if the security community in IETF can't offer a >> good password based security protocol. >> >> Anything beyond TLS+PLAIN seem to me be either surrounded with IPR >> concerns (SPEKE, SRP); [...] > > Would it be fair to take that as meaning you'd be supportive > of new work being done here on things like SPEKE if it were > not "surrounded by IPR concerns"? Hello Stephen. Yes, if it means that SPEKE is eventually made available for use in free implementations, that alone would justify going through some additional work here, in my opinion. I'm thinking of this issue in general, and not specifically in connection with SACRED, though. But it has to start somewhere... Regards, Simon From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 12:29:53 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09334 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGPU2E013318; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGPU6d013317; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGPSCL013279 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id EB3046800D; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:25:22 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A0171DE43CB; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:25:22 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAFA46800D; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:25:22 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42C0299C.4010705@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:30:20 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Gutmann Cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org, jas@extundo.com, magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.775) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A1171DE43CB Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, So you're saying that TLS_DHE_PSK_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA is a ciphersuite that can meet the requirements for use in a sacred protocol, and does better than what we've got now. (I also presume that you're not arguing that we should do work here just because that's true, but do correct me if I'm wrong there:-) As I read it, that works by basically appending a (hashed?) password to a D-H derived key (with some length fields) and using the resulting value as the TLS pre-master key. Presumably the handshake falls over at the finished message if the wrong password was used. I'll have to read that I-D again and think about whether it really is better than the current sacred scheme, (and whether in that case, it means new work here would be more or less interesting...) Has anyone else an opinion on this as a basis for credential download? (And how it'd compare with SPEKE and/or the newly-proposed/10-year-old Radia/Charlie variation?) Stephen. Peter Gutmann wrote: > Stephen Farrell writes: > > >>So I would guess that for sacred, TLS-PSK isn't an unencumbered equivalent >>since offline dictionary attacks are a high priority here. Or am I misreading >>something? > > > Oh, that's only if you use the weakest (most lightweight) form of PSK, with > the entire shared secret being the PSK. In this form it's assumed that you'd > be using a high-entropy key rather than just a password. The stronger (but > more heavyweight) forms use a standard RSA or DH exchange (alongside the PSK > data), so this isn't an issue. Note that even the most heavyweight form, DHE > + PSK, only has the same overhead as the SPEKE/SRP/etc-type protcols. > > Peter. > > From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 12:42:36 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11260 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGbfQC016345; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGbfqp016344; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGbeM2016325 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E6B9680E5; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:37:35 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A01A171A60A; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:37:35 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF5A680E5; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:37:35 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42C02C78.803@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:42:32 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Basney Cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org, magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: <200506271603.j5RG3Bm12587@mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: <200506271603.j5RG3Bm12587@mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.775) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A11A171A60A Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim, Jim Basney wrote: > I personally have limited interest in schemes like SPEKE for credential > download right now, but maybe I'm missing the practical benefits. I > find it workable to include CA certificates for TLS in a (trusted, > signed) SACRED client-side software distribution. Fair enough. From a systems-perspective you do still need that trusted s/w on the client. At one level, I guess protocols like SPEKE etc. are simply a bit more elegant, although maybe the bits on the wire are arguably less likely to be vulnerable and perhaps the databases can be made a bit more secure too. > My interest is primarily in using existing site-wide authentication > mechanisms (via SASL, GSSAPI, PAM, etc.) for retrieving PKI credentials, > for single sign-on and ease of administration, and it's not clear to me > how to integrate SPEKE into this type of environment. I don't want > another password verifier database to manage or another password to > remember. I don't think that SPEKE or whatever is any different here, so long as the value derived from the password used is available on both sides. > The #1 concern I hear about lately is client-side theft of passwords > (and other long-lived secrets) from keystroke loggers, trojans, etc., > and I'm not sure how SPEKE helps me with that. A fair point. OTOH, its no worse and I guess there ought be a way to use SPEKE (or equivalently robust schemes) so that the client can store password-derived value(s) that aren't as easy to offline dictionary attack. (I'm not sure.) > We're addressing this > concern with one-time passwords and short-lived session credentials > (HTTP cookies, Kerberos tickets, X.509 proxy certificates, etc.). > > We currently support SRP authentication in addition to TLS+DIGEST-MD5 in > our SACRED implementation (http://sacred.sf.net/ -- comments, bug > reports, interop testers, contributors welcome). Getting SASL-SRP > working with BEEP has been an adventure. I hope to write-up our > implementation experiences sometime soon. I'd be very interested in seeing that. Regards, Stephen. > > Regards, > Jim > > Stephen Farrell wrote: > >>Does the lack of response mean that there's no longer much >>interest in using schemes like SPEKE for credential download >>or that no-one's reading this list anymore? >> >>If the former, please say so. >> >>Stephen. >> >>Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> >>>Dear sacred WG, >>>Magnus and I have requested a slot for the sacred WG at >>>the upcoming Paris IETF meeting [1]. >>>There are three things to discuss (see below). One possible >>>outcome is that we reawaken this WG to do some work. Formally, >>>this would probably require a charter update. The outcome >>>of the discussions could also be a decision not to take on >>>any further SACRED work at this point. In all likelihood, >>>this would mean that the SACRED working group will be shut >>>down. >>>Hopefully, we can come to consensus on this between now and >>>a few weeks after the Paris meeting. >>>Regardless of whether or not you intend coming to Paris, We'd >>>encourage you to let the list know how you think we ought >>>proceed, so that we are able to start that meeting with some >>>idea of the level of interest and the range of opinions, (or >>>else, we can cancel the meeting if there's no interest), >>>So, read on...and comment to the list! >>>Stephen & Magnus. >>>Item 1: SACRED has always been in need of a strong password- >>>based mechanism for download of credentials. Early on, the WG >>>considered [2] using SPEKE for this. However, there was no >>>concensus for this approach, at least partly due to the, at the >>>time, unclear IPR situation. Over the last couple of months, >>>Magnus and I have been in touch with the holders of the SPEKE >>>patent, Phoenix Technologies [3], who have now made a generic >>>IPR declaration to the IETF [4]. Phoenix would like the opportunity >>>to present their technology and discuss its use in sacred. Note >>>that while the current, generic declation is basically RAND, this >>>does not necessarily imply that the terms for the use of SPEKE for >>>sacred would be exactly the same. In our discussions with Phoenix >>>so far, they appear to have made serious attempts to learn how to >>>be "IETF-friendly" and they are coming to the meeting to explain >>>their technology and position and to learn whether and/or how they >>>can make use of SPEKE attractive in IETF-concensus terms. >>> - If there is WG concensus then we could work to improve >>> the sacred protocol [5] by incorporating SPEKE. >>>Item 2: Independently of the discussions with Phoenix Technologues, >>>Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman, who where also deeply involved in >>>the early stages of this working group, have suggested a scheme they >>>themselves invented which pre-dates SPEKE. Their email below >>>summarises their scheme and its history. >>> - If there is WG concensus then we could work to improve >>> the sacred protocol by incorporating Radia and Charlie's >>> scheme. >>>Item 3: RSA Security has drafted a description [6] of how to (more >>>or less) run the current sacred protocol using HTTP instead of BEEP >>>as a substrate. >>> - Were there to be WG concensus on doing work on items 1 or >>> 2, then the WG might consider improving the protocol by >>> changing the substrate from BEEP to HTTP. Note that in >>> our opinion, item 3 alone is not sufficient reason to >>> re-charter the WG. >>>Here's a suggested 1-hour meeting agenda (we may get an additional >>>30 >>>minutes in which case each item would get proportionally longer time): >>>- Introductions (5) >>>- Item 3: HTTP as a SACRED substrate (10) >>>- Item 2: Radia's & Charlie's scheme (15) >>>- Item 1: Phoenix presentation on SPEKE (15) >>>- Discussion on new work, possible re-chartering (15) >>>References: >>>[1] http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-63.html >>>[2] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/02mar/203.htm >>>[3] http://www.phoenix.com/ >>>[4] https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_detail_show.cgi?&ipr_id=587 >>>[5] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3767.txt >>>[6] >>>ftp://ftp.rsasecurity.com/pub/rsalabs/ietf/sacred/draft-richards-sacred-http-XX.txt >>>Charlie Kaufman wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I agree with this technical and historical summary. >>>> >>> >>>[...] >>> >>> >>>> --Charlie >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Radia Perlman [mailto:Radia.Perlman@sun.com] Sent: Wednesday, >>>>June 15, 2005 9:49 AM >>>>To: magnus@rsasecurity.com; stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie >>>>Cc: Charlie Kaufman >>>>Subject: A possible credentials download protocol >>>> >>>>Charlie...correct me if I get any of the technical or historical details >>>> >>>>wrong here. Perhaps you should >>>>reply to all, even if there are no errors, saying "I agree". >>>> >>>>*************** >>>>In the first edition of the book "Network Security" published in >>>>March 1995, on page 252, there >>>>is a protocol that although we claim in the book it is "Bellovin >>>>and Merritt's Second Scheme" was actually >>>>a protocol Charlie inadvertently invented, because he had >>>>misremembered augmented EKE. >>>> >>>>The diagram in the book of Charlie's protocol does two things: it >>>>does mutual authentication, and also >>>>downloads Alice's credential (her private key). >>>> >>>>For the sacred WG, we could do just the credential download portion >>>>of the protocol. That means removing >>>>messages 3 and 5 (the ones in which the client Alice authenticates >>>>to Bob), and we can certainly also >>>>remove the challenge field from message 2 (where Bob sends Alice a >>>>challenge to authenticate with). >>>> >>>>We are left with a 2 message protocol that does no authentication >>>>by Alice to Bob. Bob has no idea, after >>>>the exchange, whether the true Alice, knowing the password, has >>>>successfully downloaded the credential. >>>>If it is an imposter, the imposter will obtain garbage. Bob can't >>>>tell the difference. >>>> >>>>However, for the purpose of the sacred WG, we do not need an >>>>authentication protocol. All we need is >>>>a credential download protocol. >>>> >>>>Anyway, the protocol I'm proposing is a 2-message protocol that >>>>looks like this: >>>> >>>>Bob (the server) has the following two pieces of information: >>>> >>>>. W=hash of Alice's password >>>>. Y=credential (which is Alice's private key encrypted with her >>>>password). >>>> >>>>In the protocol, Alice and Bob do a Diffie-Hellman exchange, >>>>encrypted with W, and Bob sends >>>>Y encrypted with the resulting Diffie-Hellman key. So the protocol is: >>>> >>>>Alice and Bob each choose a random number A, and B, >>>>respectively. The Diffie-Hellman parameters >>>>are g and p. >>>> >>>>Alice to Bob: {g^A mod p}encrypted with W >>>>Bob to Alice: {g^B mod p} encrypted with W, {Y} encrypted with g^AB >>>> >>>>********* >>>>The protocol in the book had an additional challenge, R, and was: >>>> >>>>1: Alice to Bob: {g^A mod p}W >>>>2: Bob to ALice: {g^B mod p}W, R >>>>3: Alice to Bob: {R} encrypted with g^AB mod p >>>>4: Bob to ALice: {Y} encrypted with g^AB >>>>5: Alice to Bob: R signed by Alice's private key >>>> >>>>So I'm proposing removing messages 3 and 5, combining messages 2 >>>>and 4, and removing the field "R" >>>>from message 2. > > > From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 13:07:10 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13879 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RH1j2a022310; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:01:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RH1jex022309; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:01:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-mta.sunlabs.com (dyn50.sunlabs.com [204.153.12.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RH1aEt022289 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Radia.Perlman@sun.com) Received: from mail.sunlabs.com ([152.70.2.186]) by mail-mta.sfvic.sunlabs.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.02 (built Aug 25 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IIR005GZ5YJ5Z00@mail-mta.sfvic.sunlabs.com> for ietf-sacred@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.150.25.205]) by mail.sunlabs.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.02 (built Aug 25 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IIR005Q75YI1E84@mail.sunlabs.com> for ietf-sacred@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:01:32 -0700 From: Radia Perlman Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? In-reply-to: <42C0299C.4010705@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Peter Gutmann , ietf-sacred@imc.org, jas@extundo.com, magnus@rsasecurity.com Message-id: <42C030EC.8010900@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <42C0299C.4010705@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031008 Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Can you give a URL for "that I-D"? From Stephen's description, it sounds like an active attacker would have an opportunity for a dictionary attack. Also, using TLS might be more heavyweight than necessary. A pure credentials download protocol with no dictionary attack can be done with two messages, and small enough messages that it could be done on top of UDP without fragmentation. Radia Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > Hi Peter, > > So you're saying that TLS_DHE_PSK_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA is > a ciphersuite that can meet the requirements for use in > a sacred protocol, and does better than what we've got now. > (I also presume that you're not arguing that we should > do work here just because that's true, but do correct me > if I'm wrong there:-) > > As I read it, that works by basically appending a (hashed?) > password to a D-H derived key (with some length fields) > and using the resulting value as the TLS pre-master key. > Presumably the handshake falls over at the finished message > if the wrong password was used. > > I'll have to read that I-D again and think about whether it > really is better than the current sacred scheme, (and whether > in that case, it means new work here would be more or less > interesting...) > > Has anyone else an opinion on this as a basis for credential > download? (And how it'd compare with SPEKE and/or the > newly-proposed/10-year-old Radia/Charlie variation?) > > Stephen. > > Peter Gutmann wrote: > >> Stephen Farrell writes: >> >> >>> So I would guess that for sacred, TLS-PSK isn't an unencumbered >>> equivalent >>> since offline dictionary attacks are a high priority here. Or am I >>> misreading >>> something? >> >> >> >> Oh, that's only if you use the weakest (most lightweight) form of >> PSK, with >> the entire shared secret being the PSK. In this form it's assumed >> that you'd >> be using a high-entropy key rather than just a password. The >> stronger (but >> more heavyweight) forms use a standard RSA or DH exchange (alongside >> the PSK >> data), so this isn't an issue. Note that even the most heavyweight >> form, DHE >> + PSK, only has the same overhead as the SPEKE/SRP/etc-type protcols. >> >> Peter. >> >> > From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 13:15:17 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14846 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RH9QlW024261; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:09:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RH9Qaq024260; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RH9PEw024238 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:09:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id B0F866800D; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:09:19 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A0200EAB50F; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:09:19 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2F96800D; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:09:19 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42C033D3.2060309@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:13:55 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Radia Perlman Cc: Peter Gutmann , ietf-sacred@imc.org, jas@extundo.com, magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: <42C0299C.4010705@cs.tcd.ie> <42C030EC.8010900@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <42C030EC.8010900@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.775) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A1200EAB50F Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Radia, Sorry, I should have included the URL [1] before. Stephen. [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tls-psk-09.txt Radia Perlman wrote: > > Can you give a URL for "that I-D"? From Stephen's description, it sounds > like an active attacker > would have an opportunity for a dictionary attack. Also, using TLS might > be more > heavyweight than necessary. A pure credentials download protocol with no > dictionary attack > can be done with two messages, and small enough messages that it could > be done on top of UDP > without fragmentation. > > Radia > > > > Stephen Farrell wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Peter, >> >> So you're saying that TLS_DHE_PSK_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA is >> a ciphersuite that can meet the requirements for use in >> a sacred protocol, and does better than what we've got now. >> (I also presume that you're not arguing that we should >> do work here just because that's true, but do correct me >> if I'm wrong there:-) >> >> As I read it, that works by basically appending a (hashed?) >> password to a D-H derived key (with some length fields) >> and using the resulting value as the TLS pre-master key. >> Presumably the handshake falls over at the finished message >> if the wrong password was used. >> >> I'll have to read that I-D again and think about whether it >> really is better than the current sacred scheme, (and whether >> in that case, it means new work here would be more or less >> interesting...) >> >> Has anyone else an opinion on this as a basis for credential >> download? (And how it'd compare with SPEKE and/or the >> newly-proposed/10-year-old Radia/Charlie variation?) >> >> Stephen. >> >> Peter Gutmann wrote: >> >>> Stephen Farrell writes: >>> >>> >>>> So I would guess that for sacred, TLS-PSK isn't an unencumbered >>>> equivalent >>>> since offline dictionary attacks are a high priority here. Or am I >>>> misreading >>>> something? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Oh, that's only if you use the weakest (most lightweight) form of >>> PSK, with >>> the entire shared secret being the PSK. In this form it's assumed >>> that you'd >>> be using a high-entropy key rather than just a password. The >>> stronger (but >>> more heavyweight) forms use a standard RSA or DH exchange (alongside >>> the PSK >>> data), so this isn't an issue. Note that even the most heavyweight >>> form, DHE >>> + PSK, only has the same overhead as the SPEKE/SRP/etc-type protcols. >>> >>> Peter. >>> >>> >> > > From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 27 13:26:17 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15705 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RHJG7o026856; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:19:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RHJGfD026855; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:19:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RHJEN3026820 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E37368015; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:19:09 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A0235257786; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:19:09 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D27F6803C; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:19:09 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42C03633.8070800@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:24:03 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Grosse Cc: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, ietf-sacred@imc.org, magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.775) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A1235257786 Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric, This [1] is the relevant license, right? Too hard to read this late in what's been a very nice summer's day here (i.e. I'm off home now:-) One question though: did you mean that you'd support doing more work here, or are you saying there's no need since you've already released your stuff? Cheers, Stephen (also nothing like a lawyer). [1] http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/license.html Eric Grosse wrote: > Stephen, > > I think encrypted key exchange protocols are exactly the right > tool for credential download and I use them daily. I am not a > lawyer, but the Lucent Public License which covers the > securestore implementation (and hence EKE and PAK) seems ok. > > Eric > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/factotum.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: New work for sacred working group? > From: > pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) > Date: > Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:55 +1200 > To: > ietf-sacred@imc.org, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > > To: > ietf-sacred@imc.org, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > CC: > magnus@rsasecurity.com > > > Stephen Farrell writes: > > >>Does the lack of response mean that there's no longer much interest in using >>schemes like SPEKE for credential download or that no-one's reading this list >>anymore? > > > I'm reading it, but purely in passive mode. In theory I'd be strongly opposed > to the use of any crippled/patented technology in Sacred (particularly when > there are unencumbered alternatives available), but since I'm not an > implementor it's really just a personal opinion. > > Peter. From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 28 00:54:29 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA05520 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S4kj7B068827; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S4kjnp068824; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:46:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (zeppo.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.14]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S4kdUr068751 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921A034351; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:46:38 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03568-29; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:46:38 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B84034707; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:46:34 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8136237745; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:46:34 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Dn7zb-0003cB-00; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:46:39 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? Cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org, jas@extundo.com, magnus@rsasecurity.com In-Reply-To: <42C0299C.4010705@cs.tcd.ie> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:46:39 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Stephen Farrell writes: >As I read it, that works by basically appending a (hashed?) password to a D-H >derived key (with some length fields) and using the resulting value as the >TLS pre-master key. Presumably the handshake falls over at the finished >message if the wrong password was used. Yup. Or you can use RSA (without the heavyweight DH on the client-side), or just a plain shared key. >I'll have to read that I-D again and think about whether it really is better >than the current sacred scheme Well, I don't know about technically better, but it does more or less the same job, it's unencumbered, and it's tuneable for low-powered devices. It's most importantly property however is that it's a TLS standards-track mechanism, which means that it actually exists (i.e. it's implemented and eventually, it's hoped, widely deployed). Peter. From lucian@access-one.com Tue Jun 28 03:38:47 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09854 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnB5Q-0006Vf-F4 for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:04:58 -0400 Received: from [220.91.11.147] (helo=220.91.11.147) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DnAg6-00019s-0z for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:38:43 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Vanessa J. 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------=_NextPart_001_0001_B231CA21.66FD980E-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_9689FF86.1CB59A27-- From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 28 06:16:31 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA19172 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SA7cFM098211; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SA7agb098200; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vulcan.rsasecurity.com (vulcan.rsasecurity.com [216.162.240.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SA7NoG098077 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:07:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnystrom@rsasecurity.com) Received: from ebola.securitydynamics.com by vulcan.rsasecurity.com via smtpd (for mail.imc.org [208.184.76.43]) with ESMTP; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:07:23 -0400 Received: from sdtihq24.securid.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ebola.securitydynamics.com (8.12.10/NULL) with ESMTP id j5SA4sJX029349; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rsana-ex-hq2.NA.RSA.NET (rsana-ex-hq2.securitydynamics.com [10.100.8.51]) by sdtihq24.securid.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SA7AV5023857; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rsana-ex-sm1.NA.RSA.NET ([10.80.211.17]) by rsana-ex-hq2.NA.RSA.NET with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:07:09 -0400 Received: from localhost ([10.129.13.19]) by rsana-ex-sm1.NA.RSA.NET with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:07:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:07:15 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time) From: Magnus Nystrom Reply-To: magnus@rsasecurity.com To: Peter Gutmann cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: X-X-Sender: mnystrom@[10.80.211.17] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2005 10:07:07.0501 (UTC) FILETIME=[242589D0:01C57BC9] Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: From the surface, though, it seems as if the SPEKE scheme and/or Radia & Charlie's new scheme (if at least one of these schemes can be used as "unencumbered," i.e. without requiring a license from somewhere) would be better suited for SACRED than TLS-PSK since (and correct me if I am wrong here): a) It would make SACRED more independent on its transport, perhaps even allowing it to work on top of UDP or other connection-less transports. It would be nice, I think, not to have to rely on transport-provided security services. b) The number of roundtrips would be smaller. c) We would get protection against active attackers (admittedly, throttling or similar protection mechanisms could perhaps be used in the case of PSK-TLS) as well as passive ones (TLS-PSK basic mode). d) TLS-PSK with server-side RSA-based authentication obviously requires a PKI, whereas the alternatives would not. e) As I understand it, TLS-PSK with D-H where the PSK is a password or derived from one allows an active attacker (posing as the server) to learn information that will allow for a later, off-line dictionary attack, whereas the alternatives would not. Don't you think it would be useful, also for the IETF as a whole, if we could determine whether at least one of the mentioned schemes are usable for SACRED ("usable" in the sense discussed here)? -- Magnus On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Peter Gutmann wrote: > Stephen Farrell writes: > >> As I read it, that works by basically appending a (hashed?) password to a D-H >> derived key (with some length fields) and using the resulting value as the >> TLS pre-master key. Presumably the handshake falls over at the finished >> message if the wrong password was used. > > Yup. Or you can use RSA (without the heavyweight DH on the client-side), or > just a plain shared key. > >> I'll have to read that I-D again and think about whether it really is better >> than the current sacred scheme > > Well, I don't know about technically better, but it does more or less the same > job, it's unencumbered, and it's tuneable for low-powered devices. It's most > importantly property however is that it's a TLS standards-track mechanism, > which means that it actually exists (i.e. it's implemented and eventually, > it's hoped, widely deployed). From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 28 06:22:09 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA19998 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SAHwbn006827; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SAHwwq006824; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (zeppo.itss.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.190.14]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SAHvql006794 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F1333FE7; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:17:56 +1200 (NZST) Received: from smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04661-28; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:17:56 +1200 (NZST) Received: from iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.33.152]) by smtpd.itss.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF5933FCB; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:17:56 +1200 (NZST) Received: from medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz (medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.33]) by iris.cs.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C3337745; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:17:56 +1200 (NZST) Received: from pgut001 by medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DnDAK-0004Dz-00; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:18:04 +1200 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) To: magnus@rsasecurity.com Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? Cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:18:04 +1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Magnus Nystrom writes: >Don't you think it would be useful, also for the IETF as a whole, if we could >determine whether at least one of the mentioned schemes are usable for SACRED >("usable" in the sense discussed here)? I see it as more a pragmatic tradeoff. Uhh, not to put too fine a point on it, but SACRED hasn't really taken the world by storm (this is why I started with the disclaimer saying that I hadn't actually implemented it myself). TLS-PSK is a trivial mod to existing TLS implementations, which seem to be almost everywhere (I saw a report of an implementation on a smart card recently). Piggybacking on top of that, rather than requiring a completely new implementation for what's already a seldom-used protocol, seems to be an easy way to solve the problem. Peter. From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 28 14:18:31 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07715 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SIAPH2058263; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:10:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SIAP2h058262; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SIAN61058203 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:10:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id EC1ED6800B; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:10:15 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A009B9E6BC2; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:10:15 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B1168016; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:10:15 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42C193B3.3060007@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:15:15 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Grosse Cc: ietf-sacred@imc.org Subject: Re: New work for sacred working group? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.777) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A109B9E6BC2 Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric, Thanks for that. Eric Grosse wrote: > (clarifying my earlier message) > > Encrypted key exchange protocols seem like the right tool for > credentials download and I have been using them daily for years. > Indeed, I had planned to convert Securestore to SACRED, just to > be more standards compliant, but was put off by this missing > protocol option, so I would encourage the new work. Good to hear. > My threat scenario is this: boot the local device with a LiveCD > or other trusted, generic kernel and filesystem. Tell the > client your (SACRED servername, username, password) to fetch > your credentials. Notice that in general you don't have a > place to save a key fingerprint for the SACRED server or a high > entropy preshared secret. The threat scenario includes the risk > of connecting to a fake server that will try a dictionary attack > on the password. > > I am not a lawyer, but the Lucent Public License seems ok. We > give away our implementation along with a license to whatever > patents we own (like EKE) that might be needed. > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/license.html > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/factotum.html > We use PAK because that was the technically best protocol of > this class that I had heard of. There are newer PAK variants > that might give better privacy or faster computation, but what > we use now seems good enough to me. I don't know exactly how > this affects your choice of protocol. The EKE patent looks > pretty broad to me, and the license might only be good for > PAK. I guess you need a lawyer (or a court case) to be sure. Looks to me like the license maybe only covers uses of the s/w as released by you guys, but allows doing pretty much anything with that. (Which is pretty cool.) Without getting into whether that's a good or bad interpretation, do you know whether that plan9 code includes EKE code? (Or e.g. enough code to do EKE beneath some API.) > I do worry about keyboard loggers or shoulder surfers or > whatever, so in practice I use two-factor authentication (both > PAK and SecurID) with the intent that my system should remain > secure if either factor were compromised. From the view of > SACRED, let's pretend hardware tokens don't exist and build > something independently strong. Ok, Stephen. > > Eric Grosse > Bell Labs, Computing Science Research > > From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 28 14:32:44 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA08621 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SINX7d069408; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:23:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SINXnm069407; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imx2.tcd.ie (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SINV5Y069383 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:23:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie) Received: from Vams.imx2 (imx2.tcd.ie [134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with SMTP id AECDC68016 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:23:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) by imx2.tcd.ie ([134.226.1.156]) with SMTP (gateway) id A00E95A912C; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:23:26 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (sfarrel2.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.26]) by imx2.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65C368016 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:23:26 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <42C196CA.5020903@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:28:26 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-sacred@imc.org Subject: Let's meet in Paris... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus-Status: Checked by TCD Vexira. (version=1.55.010 VDF=8.777) X-AntiVirus-Status: NONE X-AntiVirus-Status: Action Taken: X-AntiVirus-Status: Host: imx2.tcd.ie X-AntiVirus-Status: MessageID = A10E95A912C Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, From yesterday's mails it look to me like there's at least enough interest to go ahead and meet in Paris (but feel free to contradict me there if you like!). Magnus and I suggested an agenda, (below). If anyone else has an agenda item (e.g. some of the things mentioned yesterday like TLS-PSK or Plan9/EKE/PAK would seem relevant) can you say so. Don't worry about who'd present what for now, we can work out ways to handle people not being in Paris later on if necessary. If we were to go ahead and re-charter one of the main things we'd need are people to do work. If you're interested in helping out there (and have cycles to actually do stuff) can you let Magnus and I know (off list is fine). And of course, feel free to continue discussing whether and how SPEKE,EKE,PAK,TLS-PSK-DH, etc. might be good or bad for use in sacred. Lastly, no-one commented on the 3rd item (BEEP vs HTTP), which was a major discussion item on the list when we had to make that decision. I guess my default assumption is that silence on that means: "yep, if you do do something then layer on HTTP instead of BEEP". (Note that that doesn't preclude a different layering on UDP if, as Radia suggests, its really possible to do a 1-shot protocol.) Again, correct me if you disagree. Regards, Stephen. > Here's a suggested 1-hour meeting agenda (we may get an additional 30 > minutes in which case each item would get proportionally longer time): > > - Introductions (5) > - Item 3: HTTP as a SACRED substrate (10) > - Item 2: Radia's & Charlie's scheme (15) > - Item 1: Phoenix presentation on SPEKE (15) > - Discussion on new work, possible re-chartering (15) From NorahWright@theringtonecompany.com Thu Jun 30 00:02:09 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA04044; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from h-66-134-185-174.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net ([66.134.185.174]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnqfI-0002bO-PZ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:28:44 -0400 Received: from WQX@localhost by 2DGW.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:56:43 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Gina Hickey" Reply-To: "Gina Hickey" To: bertha.feliciano@ietf.org, sacred-archive@ietf.org, ippm-owner@ietf.org Subject: All Symantec software for cheap Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:01:43 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: NorahWright@theringtonecompany.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--jcy9ELPrfUazcm6" X-Spam-Score: 5.6 (+++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: bfe538a859d88717fa3c8a6377d62f90 E8Vp ----jcy9ELPrfUazcm6 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 7
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Opt-in Email Special Offer &n= bsp; unsubscribe me =
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----8125565831246235223-- From VickiBlue@umd.umich.edu Tue Jul 5 10:05:41 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25186 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [211.224.75.14] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DpoDn-0000nc-MN for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:16:27 -0400 Received: from l2Q@localhost by Imrx.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:45:38 +0100 Message-ID: <4GUTDe4LrmCPypkBsxHiPt9@wynde.com> From: "Melanie Cash" Reply-To: "Melanie Cash" To: phil.oakley@ietf.org Subject: Over 80% Savings on ALL best-selling Photoshop titles Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:45:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: VickiBlue@umd.umich.edu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--688Fp7FV82w82LKiey" X-Spam-Score: 9.2 (+++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 Z1b ----688Fp7FV82w82LKiey Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable d
Opt-in Email Special Offer &n= bsp; unsubscribe me
= <= /tbody>
<= td width=3D5 bgcolor=3D#000080>
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<= tr vAlign=3Dtop bgColor=3D#333399>

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<= /td>
2= <= td width=3D4> =
= ON SALE NOW!
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Windows XP Pro
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5 Flash MX 2004
&nbs= p; 6 Corel Painter 8
7 Adobe Acrobat 6.0
8 = Windows 2003 Server
9 = Alias Maya 6.0 Wavefront
&nbs= p; 10 Adobe Premiere
<= /td> See more by this manufacturer
Mi= crosoft
&nb= sp; Apple Software
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=
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<= /a>

<= tr><= /table>

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=
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<= span class=3Dsmall>
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<= /tr>
----688Fp7FV82w82LKiey-- From YvonneRoach@ksa-vip.net Thu Jul 7 15:01:31 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08801; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:01:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [61.248.74.92] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dqc42-0007bw-3c; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:29:41 -0400 Received: from gFEI@localhost by otO.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:07:14 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Amanda Boyce" Reply-To: "Amanda Boyce" To: rohc-admin@ietf.org Cc: ieprep-web-archive@ietf.org, sacred-archive@ietf.org Subject: Microsoft Special Deals Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:08:14 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: YvonneRoach@ksa-vip.net Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--ijpT1b5Iuzle7TRrh4R0" X-Spam-Score: 10.8 (++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 155726d2f5fe5eb5c40a9f079fd9e841 Fsn ----ijpT1b5Iuzle7TRrh4R0 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable E
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= 5 Flash MX 2004
6 Corel Draw 12
7 = Adobe Acrobat 7.0
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= ; 9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
&= nbsp; 10 Adobe Premiere
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More than 20 preformatte= d business reports
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Microsoft Windows XP Professional or Longhorn Edition
<= span class=3Dsmall>Microsoft
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= ;

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<= font size=3D1>Features:

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Opt-in Email Special Offer &n= bsp; unsubscribe me =
= = List Price:

SEARCH

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= =
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= 5 Flash MX 2004
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7 = Adobe Acrobat 7.0
8 Windows 2003 Server
= ; 9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
&= nbsp; 10 Adobe Premiere
&= nbsp; See more by this manufacturer
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Customers also b= ought
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Choose:

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You Save= : $830.01 (92%)

Availability: Available for INSTANT download!<= br> Coupon Code: ISe229
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Average Customer Review: Based on 1,768 re= views. Write a review.

Microsoft Windows XP Professional or Longhorn Edition
<= span class=3Dsmall>Microsoft
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= ;

= = =
List Price: $279.0= 0
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<= font size=3D1>Features:

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Sales Rank: #3
Shipping: In= ternational/US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires: Jun= e 30th, 2005
Average Customer Review:= Based on 498 reviews. Write = a review.
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------=_NextPart_001_0001_0CD2303E.EA7CAE06-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_B614C7B9.A4A60E30-- From owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 05:24:31 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA18477 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:24:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D9JVcR037189; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:19:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D9JVAM037188; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:19:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pc-p1-informatica.com (69.Red-213-97-128.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.128.69]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6D9JTpX037141 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:19:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from magnus@rsasecurity.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:18:38 +0000 To: "Ietf-sacred" From: "Magnus" Subject: Re: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--------pwetrzgnpoinaslfpqsu" Sender: owner-ietf-sacred@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: ----------pwetrzgnpoinaslfpqsu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed" +----------------------------------------------------+ Panda GateDefender has detected malicious content (Virus) in the following file: [Doll.cpl] W32/Bagle.AH.worm The file has been deleted to protect the network. 07/13/2005 09:13 +0100 www.pandasoftware.com +----------------------------------------------------+ ----------pwetrzgnpoinaslfpqsu Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Lovely animals

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Opt-in Email Special Offer &n= bsp; unsubscribe me <= a href=3Dhttp://spoileroem.com/?Q>
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<= td bgcolor=3D#000080>

SEARCH

TOP 10 NEW TITLES

<= td width=3D8>4= 79
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1 = Office Pro 2003
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Adobe Acrobat 7.0
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See more by this manufacturer
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=
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= Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
= Average Customer Review: Based on 498 reviews. Write a review.
List Price: $599.00
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----------ikddjyqpsfxqqevaxxci-- From TammyDotson@forestcraft.net Fri Jul 15 09:24:41 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA04758; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DtQe6-0000JA-GK; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:54:31 -0400 Received: from [59.11.36.217] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DtQBF-00071v-Ji; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:24:42 -0400 Received: from TN7K@localhost by 4rOX.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:10:03 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Linda Moreno" Reply-To: "Linda Moreno" To: rohc-admin@ietf.org, ieprep-web-archive@ietf.org, sacred-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: OEM XP Pro, XP Pro, & XP on Sale Now Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:16:03 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: TammyDotson@forestcraft.net Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--PReiwUNQWggWI2LMch" X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bfe538a859d88717fa3c8a6377d62f90 yleU ----PReiwUNQWggWI2LMch Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable u
Opt-in Email Special Offer &n= bsp; unsubscribe me

SEARCH

<= tr vAlign=3Dtop bgColor=3D#333399>

TOP 10 NEW TITLES
<= /td>
5
= ON SALE NOW!
1 O= ffice Pro 2003
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3 Adobe Cre= ative Suite Premium
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Flash MX 2004
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7 Adobe = Acrobat 7.0
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10 Adobe = Premiere
See more= by this manufacturer
<= /td> Microsoft<= /td>
Apple Software
Customers also bought
<= font face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1> these other items...
<= /td>

Microsoft Offi= ce Professional Edition *2003*
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Choose= :
&= nbsp;
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List Price: $899.00
Price: $69.99<= /b>
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Choose:
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More security with the ability to encrypt f= iles and folders
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<= font size=3D1>Integration with Windows servers and management solutions
Sales Rank: #2
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Average Customer Review: B= ased on 498 reviews. Write a review.=
----PReiwUNQWggWI2LMch-- From JuanitaParham@theatrophonic.com Fri Jul 15 13:46:47 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28361; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [218.156.166.87] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DtUjl-0002Vr-8a; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:16:40 -0400 Received: from DwJm@localhost by aNum.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:48:43 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Evelyn Lyon" Reply-To: "Evelyn Lyon" To: rohc-admin@ietf.org, ieprep-web-archive@ietf.org, sacred-archive@ietf.org Subject: 80 % Discount on All AutoCAD Titles Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:51:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: JuanitaParham@theatrophonic.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--88663576033370064" X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: fb93e867a11a29ac1dc5018706b412ac K07 ----88663576033370064 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 9
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SEARCH
<= /table>

<= font size=3D1> =
TOP 10 NEW TITLES
<= img src=3Dhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/icons/eyebrow-upper-right= -corner.gif width=3D5 height=3D5>
<= /tr>
= ON SALE NOW!
1 Office Pro 2003
2 Windows XP Pro
3 Adobe Creative Suite Premium
4 Norton Antivirus 2005
5 Flash MX 2004
6<= /td> Corel Draw 12
7= Adobe Acrobat 7.0
8 <= a href=3Dhttp://scholasticsoft.net/?5>Windows 2003 Server
9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt<= /td>
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See more by this manufact= urer
Microsoft
Apple Software
Customers also bought
these other items...

Microsoft = Office Professional Edition *2003*
Microsoft
Choose:

List Price:= $899.00
Price: $69.99
You Save: $830.01 (92%)

=
Availability: Available for INSTANT download!
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System requirements | Accessories&nbs= p; | Other Versions
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=
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Control information sharing rules with enhanc= ed IRM technology

Easy-to-us= e wizards to create e-mail newsletters and printed marketing materials

More than 20 preformatted busin= ess reports
Sales Rank:= #1
Shipping: International/US or via instant down= load
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Review: Based on 1,768 reviews. = Write a review.

Microsoft Windows XP Professional or Longhorn Edition
Microsoft
Choose:
&= nbsp;
<= /a>
List Price: $279.00
Price: $49.99<= /b>
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= Media: CD-ROM / Download

System requirements | Accessories | Other Versions
Features:

Designed for businesses of all sizes

Manage digital pictures, music, video, DVDs, and more=

More security with the abil= ity to encrypt files and folders

Built-in voice, video, and instant messaging support
Integration with Windows servers and managem= ent solutions
Sales Rank: #2=
Shipping: International/US or via instant downloa= d
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 2005
Average Customer Review: Based on 868 reviews. Write a review.

Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
Adobe
Ch= oose:

= =
$529.01 (90= %)
List Price: $599.00
Price: $69.99 =
You Save:

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Unparalleled efficiency--automate production tasks with built-in = or customized scripts

Improv= ed file management, new design possibilities, and a more intuitive way to = create for the Web

Support f= or 16-bit images, digital camera raw data, and non-square pixels
Create or modify photos using paintin= g, drawing, and retouching tools

Sales Rank: #3
Shipping: International= /US or via instant download
Date Coupon Expires: June 30th, 200= 5
Average Customer Review: B= ased on 498 reviews. Write a review= .
----88663576033370064-- From massey@yahoo.com Sun Jul 17 16:54:33 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25987 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pool-71-105-159-212.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net ([71.105.159.212] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DuGd1-0006TD-Nc for sacred-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:24:52 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:54:11 +0100 From: "Gunzberg" To: Subject: RE: The OEM Software Licensing Site-MS 2003 Technologies Message-ID: <002b01c54b50$10e49590$de01a8c0@jdkwd7ssa> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/html X-Spam-Score: 7.6 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca TOP quality software:

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Also:
Windows 2003 Server
Windows 2000 Workstation
Windows 2000 Server
Windows 2000 Advanced Server
Windows 2000 Datacenter
Windows NT 4.0
Windows Millenium
Windows 98 Second Edition
Windows 95
Office XP Professional
Office 2000
Office 97
MS Plus
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Adobe PageMaker
Adobe Illustrator
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Adobe Premiere
Macromedia Dreamwaver MX 2004
Macromedia Flash MX 2004
Macromedia Fireworks MX 2004
Macromedia Freehand MX 11
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Corel Draw Graphics Suite 11
Corel Photo Painter 8
Corel Word Perfect Office 2002
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Borland Delphi 7 Enterprise Edition
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