From acmorton@att.com Tue Nov 30 18:11:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152073A6CCE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:11:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.546, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yoArxsttDX93 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail167.messagelabs.com (mail167.messagelabs.com [216.82.253.179]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA4A3A6CD1 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:11:02 -0800 (PST) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: acmorton@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-14.tower-167.messagelabs.com!1291169533!37130358!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.9; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.145] Received: (qmail 27590 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2010 02:12:13 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp6.sbc.com (HELO mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.145) by server-14.tower-167.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 1 Dec 2010 02:12:13 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB12CV4H011952 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:12:32 -0500 Received: from alpd052.aldc.att.com (alpd052.aldc.att.com [130.8.42.31]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB12CPjQ011878 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:12:26 -0500 Received: from aldc.att.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB12C5Z1004134 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:12:06 -0500 Received: from mailgw1.maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB12C0Kc004029 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:12:00 -0500 Message-Id: <201012010212.oB12C0Kc004029@alpd052.aldc.att.com> Received: from acmt.att.com (vpn-135-70-3-104.vpn.west.att.com[135.70.3.104](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with SMTP id <20101201021158gw1004lk92e>; Wed, 1 Dec 2010 02:11:59 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.3.104] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:10:55 -0500 To: Benoit Claise From: Al Morton In-Reply-To: <4CF59808.3050305@cisco.com> References: <4CF59808.3050305@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 01:48:11 -0800 Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 02:11:21 -0000 Hi Benoit,

I think it would be reasonable to say
" ... and reliability of Internet packet transfer services."
As we know, data delivery is not assured in IP.

I saw some other places where I could make some wording suggestions,
if I may:

in section 3.10.1:

   These metrics
are designed for network operator use and provide
   unbiased quantitative measures of performance.

suggest:
... for use by network operators and their customers, and provide ...

in section 3.10.1 again:

   IETF IP
Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in the
   industry and adopted by different SDOs such as ITU-T.
The ITU-T is not a good example here, they developed their own
metrics based one previous experience with X.25, Frame Relay, and ATM
networks, using their own performance model. There continue to be some differences in the IPPM and ITU-T metrics for IP performance. 
suggest:
... and adopted by different SDOs such as the Metro Ethernet Forum.

and

   Following are
examples of essential IPPM documents published as
   Proposed Standard:
A widely deployed IPPM RFC was omitted; there's a hell of a lot of
Performance Measurement with Periodic Streams out there, RFC 3432.

in section 4.4:

   IPPM working
group has furthermore defined
[
BCP108] "IP Performance
   Metrics (IPPM) Metrics Registry", which defines a
registry for IP
   Performance Metrics
[RFC4148].  The
IANA-assigned registry contains
   an initial set of OBJECT IDENTITIES to currently defined
metrics in
   the IETF as well as defines the rules for adding IP
Performance
   Metrics that are defined in the future.
There is agreement that this registry is not used, and
there will hopefully be agreement in the near future to
withdraw the current registry and start from scratch with another
registry scheme, or use another solution to the problem such as the
information model you mentioned during the meeting in Beijing.
In any case, I think it would be best if RFC 4148 was omitted
in this memo.

hope this helps,
Al

At 07:34 PM 11/30/2010, Benoit Claise wrote:
Hi Henk, Matt, Al,

In http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02#section-3.10.1 , I see

   The IPPM working group has defined metrics for
accurately measuring
   and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of
Internet
   data delivery services.  The metrics include
connectivity, one-way
   delay and loss, round-trip delay and loss, delay variation,
loss
   patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity, and
link
   bandwidth capacity.

I'm wondering if service is the right word.
As you probably know, there are many discussions around:
        what's a
service?
        what's an
application?
        what's a
protocol?

I would prefer to use "service classes" instead of
"services". However, I defer to you guys. 
Note: the IPPM charter speaks of "service classes"

Regards, Benoit.
From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Dec 2 08:54:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBAE28C1AF for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 08:54:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pSTLbXb-wZzh for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 08:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0488428C154 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 08:54:07 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=X4MIxHOjzDy8T2OHFbayx1SW4n2TjQrrTn+IkWCjmwcyXdKOczbXSU5NBSMXvwZx; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.38.145.135] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1POCR6-0000wb-Cz for opsawg@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:55:12 -0500 Message-ID: <002a01cb9241$b3f37ec0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 08:54:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb668007d777693c75ffb5162e3bd68d03350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.38.145.135 Subject: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:54:08 -0000 Hi - As a result of discussion on the MIB doctors' list, I've put together an internet draft with textual conventions for floating point numbers. There is currently some work in progress, such as http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipfix-psamp-mib/ which has a need for floats. Rather than have a proliferation of module-specific flavors of floats scattered through IETF (and vendor) MIB modules, it would make sense to have a standardized (small) set of options. This draft is a step in that direction. This probably should be standards-track, if we would like it to be used by standards-track documents needing floats. Would this WG be interested in taking this mercifully brief draft as a WG item? I believe it is very nearly ready for publication, given its very narrow scope. The only issue I am aware of is that while it tries to cite the current version of the IEEE spec, the xml2rfc citation library only has a very ancient version. Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 2:45 PM > Subject: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > Title : Textual Conventions for the Representation of Floating-Point Numbers > Author(s) : R. Presuhn > Filename : draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2010-11-29 > > This memo defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module > containing textual conventions (TCs) to represent floating-point > numbers. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ ... From Quittek@neclab.eu Thu Dec 2 13:50:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6453A697E for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 13:50:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.18 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.18 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.747, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dS0al-RjPyUq for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 13:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu (smtp0.neclab.eu [195.37.70.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D693A69F1 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 13:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208FB2C0003F8; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:52:15 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas2.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas2.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NBGLy44CMKG9; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:52:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by smtp0.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20222C0001CE; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:52:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.241]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0255.000; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:51:58 +0100 From: Juergen Quittek To: Randy Presuhn , "opsawg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHLkkHD/kE/0ErR4ky5L6oe4bvlZZOON9SA Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:51:57 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002a01cb9241$b3f37ec0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.7.0.100913 x-originating-ip: [10.7.0.92] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3374203908_102572721" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:50:53 -0000 --B_3374203908_102572721 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Randy, I like your idea very much. For the PSAMP-MIB module we defined a TC called PsampFloat64 in exactly the same way as you do it in your draft. We received a comment to rename PsampFloat64 to Float64TC with the intention to have it re-used by future MIB modules, similarly to Unsigned64TC defined in the APPLICATION-MIB module. The problem with this approach is that it is hard to find general purpose TCs spread over a number of very specific MIB modules. Collecting them in a MIB module that serves this purpose only seems to me the preferable approach. I support making this a WG item. And yes, it has to be standards track, otherwise it would not be very useful. I have some comments on the draft that I will post in a separate email. Juergen On 03.12.10 01:54 "Randy Presuhn" wrote: > Hi - > > As a result of discussion on the MIB doctors' list, I've put together an > internet draft with textual conventions for floating point numbers. There > is currently some work in progress, such as > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipfix-psamp-mib/ > which has a need for floats. Rather than have a proliferation of > module-specific flavors of floats scattered through IETF (and > vendor) MIB modules, it would make sense to have > a standardized (small) set of options. This draft is a step in that > direction. > > This probably should be standards-track, if we would like it to be used > by standards-track documents needing floats. > > Would this WG be interested in taking this mercifully brief draft > as a WG item? > > I believe it is very nearly ready for publication, given its very narrow > scope. The only issue I am aware of is that while it tries to cite the > current version of the IEEE spec, the xml2rfc citation library only has > a very ancient version. > > Randy > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 2:45 PM >> Subject: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> Title : Textual Conventions for the Representation of >> Floating-Point Numbers >> Author(s) : R. Presuhn >> Filename : draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt >> Pages : 7 >> Date : 2010-11-29 >> >> This memo defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module >> containing textual conventions (TCs) to represent floating-point >> numbers. >> >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > ... > > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg --B_3374203908_102572721 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIQ5wYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQ2DCCENQCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC Do8wggUzMIIEG6ADAgECAgQP7R53MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIGQMQswCQYDVQQGEwJERTEY MBYGA1UEChMPTkVDIEV1cm9wZSBMdGQuMSAwHgYDVQQLExdORUMgTGFib3JhdG9yaWVzIEV1 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opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75AC3A69FE for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 13:52:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.937 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.937 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.854, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzLvGJzidrvs for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 13:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de (smtp0.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8093A697E for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 13:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A82F2800017A for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:53:49 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kpIGna7YUuLY for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:53:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E217928000174 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:53:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.241]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0255.000; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:53:41 +0100 From: Juergen Quittek To: "opsawg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Review of draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt Thread-Index: AcuSa1qjmnmaydkKREisA+WnjBhpgw== Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:53:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.7.0.100913 x-originating-ip: [10.7.0.92] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3374204009_102566754" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:52:31 -0000 --B_3374204009_102566754 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Network Working Group R. Presuhn > Internet-Draft None > Intended status: Standards Track November 29, 2010 > Expires: June 2, 2011 > > > Textual Conventions for the Representation of Floating-Point Numbers > draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt [...] > 1. Introduction > > This memo defines textual conventions for the representation of > floating-point numbers. All of these definitions are in terms of the > IEEE Standard for Floating-Point Arithmetic, IEEE 754-2008 > [IEEE.754.1985]. > > The IEEE Standard for Floating-Point Arithmetic, IEEE 754-2008 > [IEEE.754.1985], provides for a variety of interchange formats for > floating point numbers. The need for three of these has been > recognized in network management: > > o 32-bit; > o 64-bit; > o 128-bit. I would suggest supporting this statement with a reference: "The need for three of these, namely o 32-bit, o 64-bit, o 128-bit, has been recognized in network management, for example, during the discussion of data types for SMIng. Section 4.2.3 of the SMIng Objectives [RFC3216] elaborates the need for these three floating-point data types in network management protocols." [...] > 4. Definitions > > FLOAT-MIB DEFINITIONS ::= BEGIN I would suggest calling it "FLOAT-TC-MIB". This would be more descriptive. [...] > > Float32 ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION Also here I would like to add a TC to the name: Calling it "Float32TC" would have two advantages: - It would make clear that it's a TC and not an SMI data type - If at any point in time there will be an SMIv3, then I am sure it will have floating-point data types. We avoid future name collisions if we have "TC" in the name of this one here. Obviously, the same applies to Float64 and Float128. [...] > 8.1. Normative References > > [IEEE.754.1985] > Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, > "Standard for Binary Floating-Point Arithmetic", > IEEE Standard 754, August 1985. We had the same problem in the PSAMP MIB. In the bibxml2 collection of references for xml2rfc there is only the outdated reference included. You can fix this by explicitly adding the following to the block for normative references in the part of the xml file: Standard for Binary Floating-Point Arithmetic Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers Then you can use "IEEE.754.2008" as target in . 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2010 15:34:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.236.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 811BD3A6813 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:34:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (wjh.hardakers.net [10.0.0.2]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 373EF98084; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:35:04 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Hardaker To: Juergen Quittek Organization: Sparta References: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:35:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Juergen Quittek's message of "Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:53:40 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , David Perkins Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] OPSAWGReview of draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:34:12 -0000 >>>>> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:53:40 +0000, Juergen Quittek said: >> Textual Conventions for the Representation of Floating-Point Numbers >> draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt Of course, it might be worth noting that Net-SNMP has supported floats for years and years using floats wrapped in an Opaque as defined by a draft written by David Perkins "way back when" (well over 10 years ago). -- Wes Hardaker Cobham Analytic Solutions From Robert.Story@cobham.com Thu Dec 2 17:50:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5373A6A3B for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:50:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12NO4friD2m1 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:50:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98943A6A39 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB31pxIr030636; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:51:59 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB31pwNf019665; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:51:59 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([216.27.162.138]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:51:58 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:51:49 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Juergen Quittek Message-ID: <20101202205149.3da80d3d@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: References: <002a01cb9241$b3f37ec0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/axigBb3X/l1ziMY0Qvu2QQ."; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2010 01:51:58.0670 (UTC) FILETIME=[ABDDAEE0:01CB928C] Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:50:44 -0000 --Sig_/axigBb3X/l1ziMY0Qvu2QQ. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:51:57 +0000 Juergen wrote: JQ> I like your idea very much. Me too. But I think it's just a teensy bit to narrow. Rather than a FLOAT-TC-MIB, I'd like to see a NUMERIC-TC-MIB, and include Integer64 and Unsigned64. --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/axigBb3X/l1ziMY0Qvu2QQ. Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz4TToACgkQ7/fVLLY1mniTbACfYnEzTDRuA0ig2FfzK+XlsiiZ uegAnjYsZBof/NPJesjeod1MOGDEbUKj =Ad79 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/axigBb3X/l1ziMY0Qvu2QQ.-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Dec 2 19:56:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887C43A67E6 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:56:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ux4AsEM2Q2dr for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC173A672F for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:56:00 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=hxDQDONnpUp6iszPxW6Fhw+nXDvwdQNtD8nixofbnt5hS907tRyVtJUP9O2cqSrP; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.254.50.121] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1POMln-0000SC-JD; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 22:57:15 -0500 Message-ID: <004f01cb929e$40e923a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "Robert Story" , "Juergen Quittek" References: <002a01cb9241$b3f37ec0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101202205149.3da80d3d@sparta.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:57:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb6a27f9ebbcd0f74580fd396ba10126f3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.254.50.121 Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 03:56:01 -0000 Hi - > From: "Robert Story" > To: "Juergen Quittek" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 5:51 PM > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt ... > Me too. But I think it's just a teensy bit to narrow. Rather than a > FLOAT-TC-MIB, I'd like to see a NUMERIC-TC-MIB, and include Integer64 > and Unsigned64. I'd rather not add those to this document. My experience with getting what became RFC 2856 through the process leads me to think that that it could take much longer to reach consensus on 64-bit integers. My suggestion would be that if folks really want to do more 64-bit integer TCs, a revision of RFC 2856 might be a sensible route, rather than having some 64-bit integer support in that document's MIB module and the rest in this one's. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Dec 2 20:59:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0C53A688D for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:59:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OFlGC4DpeQXh for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63393A6843 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:59:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=bsjmajnq7ocuRYjCdjqaUp2gdDm7Z6tZzfi90/FwGniv2Z7NYbf9VMbPSrb9pzS3; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.254.50.121] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PONko-000846-5A; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 00:00:18 -0500 Message-ID: <008401cb92a7$0eccfd20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "Juergen Quittek" , References: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:00:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb502f62013d3df57904023a5969770e3a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.254.50.121 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-presuhn-floats-00.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 04:59:02 -0000 Hi - > From: "Juergen Quittek" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 1:53 PM ... > > The IEEE Standard for Floating-Point Arithmetic, IEEE 754-2008 > > [IEEE.754.1985], provides for a variety of interchange formats for > > floating point numbers. The need for three of these has been > > recognized in network management: > > > > o 32-bit; > > o 64-bit; > > o 128-bit. > > I would suggest supporting this statement with a reference: > > "The need for three of these, namely > o 32-bit, > o 64-bit, > o 128-bit, > has been recognized in network management, for example, during the > discussion of data types for SMIng. Section 4.2.3 of the SMIng > Objectives [RFC3216] elaborates the need for these three floating-point > data types in network management protocols." Ok, I've added words to this effect. > > 4. Definitions > > > > FLOAT-MIB DEFINITIONS ::= BEGIN > > I would suggest calling it "FLOAT-TC-MIB". > This would be more descriptive. Agreed, fixed. > > Float32 ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION > > Also here I would like to add a TC to the name: > Calling it "Float32TC" would have two advantages: > - It would make clear that it's a TC and not an SMI data type > - If at any point in time there will be an SMIv3, then I am sure > it will have floating-point data types. We avoid future name > collisions if we have "TC" in the name of this one here. > > Obviously, the same applies to Float64 and Float128. Agreed, fixed. ... > Then you can use "IEEE.754.2008" as target in . Thanks, that was exactly what I needed! Done. I'll spin a new draft shortly. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Dec 2 21:22:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51503A6891 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:22:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.975 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.975 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.541, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3J0F+YA3n6bL for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77B728C184 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:22:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=WEuJoPU9cnzCYkuX43WHCGs3Q8Aq1r5bJjz378IweZnigQjCjVhmNjKeZ3j5yBOI; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.254.50.121] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1POO7B-00026s-Et for opsawg@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 00:23:25 -0500 Message-ID: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:24:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb6c2dc4baa3bbe888ffd220aea6b1e3e2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.254.50.121 Subject: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 05:22:09 -0000 Hi - Diffs are at http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-presuhn-floats-01 Yes, I forgot to change the time-stamps in the MIB module. Any other issues? Randy > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 9:15 PM > Subject: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > Title : Textual Conventions for the Representation of Floating-Point Numbers > Author(s) : R. Presuhn > Filename : draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2010-12-02 > > This memo defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module > containing textual conventions (TCs) to represent floating-point > numbers. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ ... From rdroms@cisco.com Thu Dec 2 16:11:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE16528C124 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:11:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JRQbik9NfvQ4 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:11:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5495928C0FB for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:11:22 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjYFANvE90xAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACVGo4UcadomxCCcYJWBIRehgk X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.59,290,1288569600"; d="scan'208";a="188584799" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Dec 2010 00:12:35 +0000 Received: from bxb-rdroms-8711.cisco.com (bxb-rdroms-8711.cisco.com [10.98.10.82]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id oB30CZU0007483 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 00:12:35 GMT From: Ralph Droms Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:12:35 -0500 Message-Id: To: opsawg@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:21:29 -0800 Subject: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-tsou-opsawg-network-configuration X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 00:11:27 -0000 Comments based on my review of = draft-tsou-opsawg-network-configuration... What is the purpose of the document? I think it is to summarize = existing configuration mechanisms as several levels and identify gaps. = Who is the audience? Will the document be used to motivate new work = that would be generally applicable to joining any device to a network or = is it a reference doc from which a particular group (e.g., 3GPP) will = devise a more limited-scope mechanism? How does a device decide among alternative networks to join? E.g., an = 802.11 device may see multiple networks with multiple SSIDs; how does it = decide which to join? I think you have the definition and use of DUID-UUID and UUID a little = confused. UUID is already available as a unique, stable device ID. The = DUID-UUID is a derivative ID solely used for DHCPv6. Therefore, in G1 I = think all that needs to be newly defined is the DUID-UUID for DHCPv6. = Also, the problem with DUIDs and DHCPv6 is not so much the lack of a = stable identifier - DUIDs are, by definition in RFC 3315, stable - as = the lack of a non-opaque identifier that is constant across all = bootstrap steps in the device. You mention the use of DHCP for several bits of configuration = information. DHCP is likely not to be useful in the inter-domain case = as the device's Service Provider is not likely to have the ability to = configure the DHCP parameters returned to the device by Service Provider = X. Which brings to mind an aspect of configuration that might be useful to = consider for your document: which parts of the configuration are = established independently by the device and reported to the Service = Provider and which are required to be delivered from the Service = Provider to the device. For example, in the inter-domain case, the = specific IP address used by the device is provided by the remote SP and = needs to be delivered to the device's SP, while pointers to other = services and applications in the device's SP network must be delivered = from the device's SP to the device. RFC 2131 is a more current reference to cite for DHCPv4. This last comment is somewhat vague and I'll need to re-read the = document to improve the comment. The organization of the steps the = mechanisms seems somewhat arbitrary and ad hoc. Is it possible to = organize the document around the specific pieces or types of = information, and then tie in the ways in which that information can be = delivered? For example, relating back to my question about which = network to join, the device needs some sort of network identifier, which = can be delivered in a variety of ways. One of the mechanisms for = passing information, which I don't think you mentioned, is through = physical proximity such as holding the device next to a wireless AP; = when both devices flash an external LED, the device has joined the right = network. - Ralph From mehmet.ersue@nsn.com Fri Dec 3 16:03:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419D23A69DE for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:03:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.272, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RL2s1qHuHEAi for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391523A69D8 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id oB404EFd009656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:04:14 +0100 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id oB404DxF015681; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:04:14 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.18]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:04:13 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.C87B5FFC" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:04:11 +0100 Message-ID: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6401529E06@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <201012010212.oB12C02U004028@alpd052.aldc.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question Thread-Index: AcuQ/Swjm3ZtqU65TRK5i8yRpkSMsQCPn6bQ References: <4CF59808.3050305@cisco.com> <201012010212.oB12C02U004028@alpd052.aldc.att.com> From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Al Morton" , "Benoit Claise" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2010 00:04:13.0371 (UTC) FILETIME=[C8A918B0:01CB9346] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 00:03:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.C87B5FFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Al,=20 =20 thank you for the valuable comments and text proposals. =20 I didn't know that MEF adopted IPPM. Which RFCs or IPPM mechanisms=20 did they exactly adopt? =20 Cheers,=20 Mehmet =20 From: ext Al Morton [mailto:acmorton@att.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 3:11 AM To: Benoit Claise Cc: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich); opsawg@ietf.org; Henk Uijterwaal; Matthew J Zekauskas Subject: Re: draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question =20 Hi Benoit, I think it would be reasonable to say=20 " ... and reliability of Internet packet transfer services." As we know, data delivery is not assured in IP. I saw some other places where I could make some wording suggestions, if I may: in section 3.10.1: These metrics are designed for network operator use and provide unbiased quantitative measures of performance. suggest: ... for use by network operators and their customers, and provide ... in section 3.10.1 again: IETF IP Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in the industry and adopted by different SDOs such as ITU-T. The ITU-T is not a good example here, they developed their own=20 metrics based one previous experience with X.25, Frame Relay, and ATM networks, using their own performance model. There continue to be some differences in the IPPM and ITU-T metrics for IP performance. =20 suggest: ... and adopted by different SDOs such as the Metro Ethernet Forum. and Following are examples of essential IPPM documents published as Proposed Standard: A widely deployed IPPM RFC was omitted; there's a hell of a lot of Performance Measurement with Periodic Streams out there, RFC 3432.=20 in section 4.4: IPPM working group has furthermore defined [ =20 BCP108 ] "IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Metrics Registry", which defines a registry for IP Performance Metrics [RFC4148 ]. The IANA-assigned registry contains an initial set of OBJECT IDENTITIES to currently defined metrics in the IETF as well as defines the rules for adding IP Performance Metrics that are defined in the future. There is agreement that this registry is not used, and there will hopefully be agreement in the near future to withdraw the current registry and start from scratch with another registry scheme, or use another solution to the problem such as the information model you mentioned during the meeting in Beijing. In any case, I think it would be best if RFC 4148 was omitted in this memo. hope this helps, Al At 07:34 PM 11/30/2010, Benoit Claise wrote: Hi Henk, Matt, Al, In http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02#section-3 .10.1 , I see The IPPM working group has defined metrics for accurately measuring and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services. The metrics include connectivity, one-way delay and loss, round-trip delay and loss, delay variation, loss patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity, and link bandwidth capacity. =20 I'm wondering if service is the right word. As you probably know, there are many discussions around: what's a service? what's an application? what's a protocol? =20 I would prefer to use "service classes" instead of "services". However, I defer to you guys.=20 Note: the IPPM charter speaks of "service classes" =20 Regards, Benoit. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.C87B5FFC Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Hi Al,

=  

= thank you for the valuable comments and text = proposals.

=  

= I didn’t know that MEF adopted IPPM. Which RFCs or IPPM mechanisms =

= did they exactly adopt?

=  

= Cheers,
= Mehmet

=  

From:= ext Al = Morton [mailto:acmorton@att.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December = 01, 2010 3:11 AM
To: Benoit Claise
Cc: Ersue, Mehmet = (NSN - DE/Munich); opsawg@ietf.org; Henk Uijterwaal; Matthew J = Zekauskas
Subject: Re: draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 = -> IPPM question

 

Hi Benoit,

I think it would be reasonable to = say
" ... and reliability of Internet packet transfer = services."
As we know, data delivery is not assured in = IP.

I saw some other places where I could make some wording = suggestions,
if I may:

in section = 3.10.1:


   These =
metrics
are designed for network operator use and =
provide
   unbiased quantitative measures =
of performance.


suggest:
... = for use by network operators and their customers, and provide = ...

in section 3.10.1 = again:


   IETF =
IP
Performance Metrics have been introduced widely =
in the
   industry and adopted by =
different SDOs such as ITU-T.

The = ITU-T is not a good example here, they developed their own
metrics = based one previous experience with X.25, Frame Relay, and = ATM
networks, using their own performance model. There continue to be = some differences in the IPPM and ITU-T metrics for IP performance.  =
suggest:
... and adopted by different SDOs such as the Metro = Ethernet Forum.

and


   =
Following are
examples of essential IPPM documents =
published as
   Proposed =
Standard:

A widely deployed IPPM = RFC was omitted; there's a hell of a lot of
Performance Measurement = with Periodic Streams out there, RFC 3432.

in section = 4.4:


   IPPM =
working
group has furthermore =
defined
[
BCP108] "IP =
Performance
   Metrics (IPPM) Metrics =
Registry", which defines a
registry for =
IP
   Performance =
Metrics
[RFC4148].  =
The
IANA-assigned registry =
contains
   an initial set of OBJECT =
IDENTITIES to currently defined
metrics =
in
   the IETF as well as defines the =
rules for adding =
IP
Performance
   =
Metrics that are defined in the future.

There is agreement that this registry is not used, = and
there will hopefully be agreement in the near future = to
withdraw the current registry and start from scratch with = another
registry scheme, or use another solution to the problem such = as the
information model you mentioned during the meeting in = Beijing.
In any case, I think it would be best if RFC 4148 was = omitted
in this memo.

hope this helps,
Al

At 07:34 = PM 11/30/2010, Benoit Claise wrote:

Hi Henk, Matt, = Al,

In http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw= -02#section-3.10.1 , I see

   The IPPM =
working group has defined metrics for
accurately =
measuring
   and reporting the quality, =
performance, and reliability =
of
Internet
   data =
delivery services.  The metrics =
include
connectivity, =
one-way
   delay and loss, round-trip =
delay and loss, delay =
variation,
loss
   =
patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity, =
and
link
   =
bandwidth capacity.
 
I'm =
wondering if service is the right word.
As you =
probably know, there are many discussions =
around:
       &n=
bsp;what's =
a
service?
   &n=
bsp;    what's =
an
application?
  &nb=
sp;     what's =
a
protocol?
 
I would prefer to use "service classes" instead =
of
"services". However, I defer to you =
guys. 
Note: the IPPM charter speaks of =
"service =
classes"
 
Regards, =
Benoit.
------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.C87B5FFC-- From mehmet.ersue@nsn.com Fri Dec 3 16:03:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B663A69D8 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:03:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.035 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.035 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.963, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XWoxhxOZZ8OV for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43323A659C for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id oB403qrm000403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:03:54 +0100 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id oB403qU2015356; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:03:52 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.18]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:03:51 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.BB6CFB56" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:03:46 +0100 Message-ID: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6401529E05@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <4CF59398.3090700@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 1 Thread-Index: AcuQ76yXweuZLuaLTVO9gf+iwk/6NQCSrOgg References: <4CE2907A.6020204@cisco.com> <4CE29DDC.7090207@cisco.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A640141CA1F@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <4CF59398.3090700@cisco.com> From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Benoit Claise" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2010 00:03:51.0606 (UTC) FILETIME=[BBB00560:01CB9346] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 1 X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 00:03:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.BB6CFB56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Benoit, =20 >> DIAMETER uses port number 3868 for TCP and SCTP. > So just be consistent. Either you give the ports for all protocols, or for none of them. Agree. The document is not about IANA port numbers. =20 Cheers,=20 Mehmet From: ext Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 1:15 AM To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 1 =20 Hi Mehmet,=20 Hi Benoit, =20 thank you for your comments. =20 > Below is a couple of high level points: > - add a section about IPPM. Btw, I never understood why IPPM was not in OPS. My customers see active monitoring as OPS, and they don't care whether the packet loss, jitter,=20 > delay, or whatever perf. metric come from active or passive. Since I'm following IPPM, I could write a section on this later. =20 Actually there is a chapter on IPPM, maybe it is not sufficient yet.=20 Now that I reviewed the second part of the draft, I see it. ;-) =20 > - I would like to see YANG appear in the table of content, as this will be important in the future. A proposal in that direction in the text below =20 Agree, NETCONF and YANG belong together. =20 > - an EMAN section is missing. I could write it later. =20 This is the point I was trying to explain. Since the document is a kind of standard survey there is not much to write on EMAN yet. I agree it is important and should be described as new work. Yes, maybe without referring to the IETF drafts, not be stuck in the RFC-editor queue forever. =20 > - multiple times, you refer to "data model". Please refer to RFC3444 =20 RFC 3444 should be referred. =20 > - sometimes you use SYSLOG or syslog. You should take the convention that only the acronyms are upper case. For example: SNMP, RADIUS. > - I would like to rewrite/improve the IPFIX/PSAMP section. =20 I asked already Juergen Quittek for IPFIX/PSAMP and with Dave Harrington for SNMP. But I am fine with your edits too. You guys can decide who is doing what.=20 =20 > - How far do you want in referring existing drafts. You might be stuck for ever for waiting for all drafts to become RFCs. Example: I-D.baker-ietf-core. You should mention your=20 > guidelines somewhere. Something such as: "This RFC is based on the current status in OPS in 2011. While there are currently many drafts that improve the protocols in OPS at the=20 > IETF, they are not referenced. This document should have an update every X years" ...=20 =20 I think some of the new work is filling an essential gap and should be mentioned. I know that we can't refer drafts consistently so they will be cleaned up before publication. =20 > - v6ops is weak, but you noted that. ;-) > - Personally, I never heard of AgentX, even if I've been in network management for many years. For my information, is it used somewhere in the industry? If not, is it worth=20 > mentioning? =20 I think there are companies using AgentX but this does not mean it is really important. Let's see what others say. =20 > - Do you want to mention IANA ports? It seems that you do it, but inconsistently. For example, it's done for RADIUS, but not SNMP, IPFIX and others. =20 Actually I don't want to go into IANA space. We can give a link though where people can look at. I mean, for example: RADIUS has been prepared to use over UDP port 1812 for RADIUS Authentication and 1813 for RADIUS Accounting. ... DIAMETER uses port number 3868 for TCP and SCTP. So just be consistent. Either you give the ports for all protocols, or for none of them. =20 > - MIB: you should explain how to search if the IETF has standardized a MIB module for a specific area.=20 =20 AFAIK there is no IETF tool to search for MIB objects. I would suggest to focus right now on the core part of the draft. =20 Concerning Terminology section: I think we should have here only the basic NM terminology.=20 =20 Concerning other issues below: I will try to consider them. We need probably a conf call at some point. Sure. Let me know. Regards, Benoit =20 Cheers,=20 Mehmet =20 From: ext Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 4:06 PM To: opsawg@ietf.org; Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) Subject: Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 1 =20 Hi Mehmet, As promised, here is my review. Only part 1 for now: part 2 will follow. Below is a couple of high level points: - add a section about IPPM. Btw, I never understood why IPPM was not in OPS. My customers see active monitoring as OPS, and they don't care whether the packet loss, jitter, delay, or whatever perf. metric come from active or passive. Since I'm following IPPM, I could write a section on this later. - I would like to see YANG appear in the table of content, as this will be important in the future. A proposal in that direction in the text below - an EMAN section is missing. I could write it later. - multiple times, you refer to "data model". Please refer to RFC3444 - sometimes you use SYSLOG or syslog. You should take the convention that only the acronyms are upper case. For example: SNMP, RADIUS. - I would like to rewrite/improve the IPFIX/PSAMP section. - How far do you want in referring existing drafts. You might be stuck for ever for waiting for all drafts to become RFCs. Example: I-D.baker-ietf-core. You should mention your guidelines somewhere. Something such as: "This RFC is based on the current status in OPS in 2011. While there are currently many drafts that improve the protocols in OPS at the IETF, they are not referenced. This document should have an update every X years" ...=20 - v6ops is weak, but you noted that. ;-) - Personally, I never heard of AgentX, even if I've been in network management for many years. For my information, is it used somewhere in the industry? If not, is it worth mentioning? - Do you want to mention IANA ports? It seems that you do it, but inconsistently. For example, it's done for RADIUS, but not SNMP, IPFIX and others. - MIB: you should explain how to search if the IETF has standardized a MIB module for a specific area.=20 - Along the same line (Data models), do you want to mention where to look: example: IPFIX IANA IE example: RADIUS IANA etc... See inline. Network Working Group M. Ersue Internet-Draft Nokia Siemens Networks Intended status: Informational October 25, 2010 Expires: April 28, 2011=20 An Overview of the IETF Network Management Framework and its Standards=20 draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01=20 Abstract=20 This document gives an overview of the IETF standard management=20 framework and summarizes existing and ongoing development of IETF=20 standards-track network management protocols and data models. The=20 purpose of this document is on the one hand to help system developers and users to select appropriate standard management protocols and=20 data models to address relevant management needs. On the other hand=20 the document can be used as an overview and guideline by other SDOs=20 or bodies planning to use IETF management technologies and data=20 models.=20 Status of This Memo=20 This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the=20 provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.=20 Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering=20 Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute=20 working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet-=20 Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/ .=20 Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any=20 time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference=20 material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."=20 This Internet-Draft will expire on April 28, 2011.=20 Copyright Notice=20 Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the=20 document authors. All rights reserved.=20 This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal=20 Provisions Relating to IETF Documents=20 (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info ) in effect on the date of=20 publication of this document. Please review these documents=20 carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 1] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 to this document. Code Components extracted from this document must=20 include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of=20 the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as=20 described in the Simplified BSD License.=20 Table of Contents=20 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1.1. Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2. IETF Standard Management Framework . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2.1. Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) and its=20 Architectural Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2.2. SNMP and its Versions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2.3. SNMP Security . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2.3.1. Security Requirements on the SNMP Management=20 Framework . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2.3.2. User-Based Security Model (USM) . . . . . . . . . . . 10 2.3.3. View-Based Access Control Model (VACM) . . . . . . . . 11 2.3.4. SNMP Transport Subsystem and Transport Security=20 Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 2.3.5. RADIUS Authentication and Authorization with SNMP=20 Transport Models . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 2.4. Supplementary Components of the IETF Management=20 Framework . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 2.4.1. NETCONF . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 2.4.2. SYSLOG . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 2.4.3. IPFIX/PSAMP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 3. Management Protocols and Mechanisms with specific Focus . . . 20 3.1. IP Address Management with DHCP . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 3.2. IPv6 Network Operations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 3.3. SNMP Agent Extensibility (AgentX) Protocol . . . . . . . . 22 3.4. Radius . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 3.5. Diameter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24 3.6. CAPWAP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 3.7. Access Node Control Protocol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 3.8. Ad-Hoc Network Autoconfiguration . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 3.9. Policy-based Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 3.9.1. IETF Policy Framework . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 3.9.2. COPS-PR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 3.10. Network Performance Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 3.10.1. IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 3.10.2. Real-time Flow Measurement (RTFM) . . . . . . . . . . 29 3.11. Application Management Protocols . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 3.11.1. ACAP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 3.11.2. XCAP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 3.11.3. EPP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31 4. Proposed, Draft and Standard Level Data Models . . . . . . . . 31 4.1. Fault Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 2] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 4.2. Configuration Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33 4.3. Accounting Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 4.4. Performance Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 4.5. Security Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 5. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 7. Contributors . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 8. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 9. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 Appendix A. New Work related to IETF Management Framework . . . . 53 A.1. Energy Management (eman) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53 Appendix B. Open issues . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 3] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 1. Introduction=20 This document gives an overview of the IETF standard management=20 framework and summarizes existing and ongoing development of IETF=20 standards-track network management protocols and data models. The=20 purpose of this document is on the one hand to help system developers and users to select appropriate standard management protocols and=20 data models to address relevant management needs. On the other hand=20 the document can be used as an overview and guideline by other SDOs=20 or bodies planning to use IETF management technologies and data=20 models. The document can be also used to initiate a discussion=20 between the bodies with the goal to gather new management=20 requirements and to detect possible gaps.=20 [I-D.baker-ietf-core] identifies the key protocols of the Internet=20 Protocol Suite for use in the Smart Grid. The target audience is=20 those people seeking guidance on how to construct an appropriate=20 Internet Protocol Suite profile for the Smart Grid. In analogy to=20 [I-D.baker-ietf-core] this document gives an overview on the IETF=20 management framework and technologies and will show usage scenarios=20 addressing the Smart Grid environment.=20 The Overview of the 2002 IAB Network Management Workshop [RFC3535]=20 documented strengths and weaknesses of some IETF management=20 protocols. In choosing existing protocol solutions to meet the=20 management requirements, it is recommended that these strengths and=20 weaknesses be considered. Some of the recommendations from the 2002=20 IAB workshop have become outdated, some have been standardized, and=20 some are being worked on at the IETF.=20 Guidelines for Considering Operations and Management of New Protocols and Extensions [RFC5706] recommends working groups to consider=20 operations and management needs, and then select appropriate=20 management protocols and data models. This document can be used to=20 ease surveying the IETF standards-track network management protocols=20 and management data models.=20 Section 2 gives an overview of the IETF standard management framework with a special focus on Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) and supplementary components of the IETF management framework such as=20 NETCONF, SYSLOG and IPFIX. Section 3 discusses IETF management=20 protocols and mechanisms with a specific focus and their use cases.=20 Section 4 discusses Proposed, Draft and Standard Level data models,=20 RFC3444 such as MIBs designed to address specific set of issues and maps them to different management tasks.=20 IETF specifications must have "multiple, independent, and=20 interoperable implementations" before they can be advanced to Draft=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 4] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 Standard status. An Internet Standard, which may simply be referred=20 to as a Standard, is characterized by a high degree of technical=20 maturity and by a generally held belief that the specified protocol=20 or service provides significant benefit to the Internet community=20 [RFC2026].=20 This document mainly refers to Proposed, Draft or Full Standard=20 documents at IETF. =20 Give a reference to those, as your audience is also other SDOs As far as it is valuable standard track I-Ds just=20 before publication and Best Current Practice (BCP) documents are=20 referenced. In exceptional cases and if the document provides=20 substantial guideline for standard usage Informational RFCs are=20 noticed.=20 Note: This document uses the expired draft [I-D.ietf-opsawg-survey-=20 management] edited by Dave Harrington as a starting point and=20 enhances it with a special focus on the description of the IETF=20 Standard Management Framework and SNMP security as well as aims to=20 extend it with explanation of the standards, their usage scenarios=20 and new development at IETF.=20 Note: The document does not cover OAM technologies on the data-path,=20 e.g. OAM of tunnels, MPLS-TP OAM, Pseudowire, etc. [I-D.ietf-=20 opsawg-oam-overview] gives an overview on the OAM toolset for=20 detecting and reporting connection failures or measurement of=20 connection performance parameters. [I-D.ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework]=20 describes the OAM Framework for MPLS-based Transport Networks.=20 1.1. Terminology=20 This document does not describe standard requirements. Therefore key words from RFC2119 are not used in the document.=20 o CLI: Command Line Interface=20 o Data model: A mapping of the contents of an information model into a form that is specific to a particular type of data store or=20 repository.=20 RFC3444 o Information model: An abstraction and representation of the=20 entities in a managed environment, their properties, attributes=20 and operations, and the way that they relate to each other. It is independent of any specific repository, software usage, protocol,=20 or platform.=20 RFC3444=20 NOTE: To be filled out!=20 Not sure what you want to do. For example, we have terms defined for Flow, Flow Record, Template, Metering Process, etc... Sure, they could be referenced in this section, we could use the capitalized letter, but this is a huge job. Not sure it's worth it. Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 5] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 2. IETF Standard Management Framework=20 2.1. Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) and its Architectural=20 Principles=20 As described in [RFC3410] the current version of the Internet=20 Standard Management Framework, the SNMPv3 Framework, builds upon both the original SNMPv1 and SNMPv2 Management Framework. The basic=20 structure and components for the Internet Standard Management=20 Framework did not change between its versions and comprises following components:=20 o managed nodes, each with an SNMP entity providing remote access to management instrumentation (the agent),=20 o at least one SNMP entity with management applications (the=20 manager), and=20 o a management protocol used to convey management information=20 between the SNMP entities, and management information.=20 During its evolution, the fundamental architecture of the Internet=20 Standard Management Framework remained consistent based on a modular=20 architecture, which consists of:=20 o a generic protocol definition independent of the data it is=20 carrying, and=20 o a protocol-independent data definition language,=20 o a virtual database containing data sets of management information=20 definitions (the Management Information Base, or MIB), and=20 o security and administration.=20 As such following standards build up the basis of the current IETF=20 Standard Management Framework:=20 o SNMPv3 protocol,=20 o the modeling language SMIv2, and=20 o MIBs for different management issues.=20 The SNMPv3 Framework extends the architectural principles of SNMPv1=20 and SNMPv2 by:=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 6] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 o building on these three basic architectural components, in some=20 cases incorporating them from the SNMPv2 Framework by reference,=20 and=20 o by using the same layering principles in the definition of new=20 capabilities in the security and administration portion of the=20 architecture.=20 2.2. SNMP and its Versions=20 SNMP is based on three conceptual entities: Manager, Agent, and the=20 Management Information Base (MIB). In any configuration, at least=20 one manager node runs SNMP management software. Network devices such as bridges, routers, and servers are equipped with an agent. The=20 agent is responsible for providing access to a local MIB of objects=20 that reflects the resources and activity at its node. Following the=20 manager-agent paradigm, an agent can generate notifications and send=20 them as unsolicited messages to the management application.=20 To enhance this basic functionality, a new version of SNMP has been=20 introduced in 1993. SNMPv2 added bulk transfer capability and other=20 functional extensions like an administrative model for access=20 control, security extensions, and Manager-to-Manager communication.=20 Also the informs have been introduced. SNMPv2 entities can have a dual role as manager and agent. However,=20 neither SNMPv1 nor SNMPv2 offers sufficient security features. To=20 address the security deficiencies of SNMPv1/v2, SNMPv3 was issued as=20 a set of Proposed Standards in January 1998 (see [STD62]).=20 The BCP document [BCP0074] "Coexistence between Version 1, Version 2, and Version 3 of the Internet-standard Network Management Framework"=20 gives an overview of the relevant standard documents on the three=20 SNMP versions. The BCP document furthermore describes how to convert MIB modules from SMIv1 format to SMIv2 format and how to translate=20 notification parameters as well as describes the mapping between the=20 message processing and security models (see [RFC3584]).=20 SNMP utilizes the Management Information Base, a virtual information=20 store of modules of managed objects. MIB module support is uneven=20 across vendors, and even within devices. =20 Not sure what you mean? The lack of standard MIB=20 module support for all functionality in a device forces operators to=20 use other protocols such as a command line interface (CLI) to do=20 configuration of some aspects of their managed devices. =20 I would change completely change the order in this section, explaining first what SNMP is good at, i.e. monitoring, and then, express that SNMP is not suitable (and not used that much) for configuration. Btw, you can then refer to section 2.4.1, in which you give the output of the IAB. Many=20 operators have found it easier to use one protocol for all=20 configurations rather than to split the task across multiple=20 protocols.=20 SNMP is good at determining the operational state of specific=20 functionality, but not necessarily for the complete operational state Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 7] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 of a managed device. =20 Hence the CLI .... SNMP is also good for statistics gathering for=20 specific functionality. The widespread use of counters in standard=20 MIB modules permits the interoperable comparison of statistics across devices from different vendors. Counters have been especially useful in monitoring bytes and packets going in and out over various=20 protocol interfaces. SNMP is often used to poll a device for=20 sysUpTime, which serves to report the time since the last=20 reinitialization of the device, to check for operational liveness,=20 and to detect discontinuities in some counters.=20 SNMP traps and informs can alert an operator or an application when=20 some aspect of a protocol fails or encounters an error condition, and the contents of a notification can be used to guide subsequent SNMP=20 polling to gather additional information about an event.=20 SNMP is widely used for monitoring fault and performance data. Some=20 operators use SNMP for configuration in various environments, while=20 others find SNMP an inappropriate choice for configuration in their=20 environments. During the IAB Network Management Workshop the=20 attendees expected that the so-called evolutionary approaches would=20 fail and more focus should be put on new approaches, such as XML-=20 based configuration management.=20 You see, you come back to the same point in the paragraph above. SNMPv1 [RFC1157] is a Full Standard that the IETF has declared=20 Historic and it is not recommended due to its lack of security=20 features. SNMPv2c [RFC1901] is an Experimental specification (not a=20 standard of any kind) that the IETF has declared Historic and it is=20 not recommended due to its lack of security features.=20 SNMPv3 [STD62] is a Full Standard that is recommended due to its=20 security features, including support for authentication, encryption,=20 timeliness and integrity checking, and fine-grained data access=20 controls. An overview of the SNMPv3 document set is in [RFC3410].=20 Standards exist to use SNMP over multiple network protocols,=20 including TCP, UDP, Ethernet, OSI, and others.=20 2.3. SNMP Security=20 2.3.1. Security Requirements on the SNMP Management Framework=20 Several of the classical threats to network protocols are applicable=20 to management problem space and therefore applicable to any security=20 model used in an SNMP Management Framework. This section lists=20 principal threats, secondary threats, and threats which are of lesser importance as defined in [RFC3411].=20 The principal threats against which SNMP Security Models should=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 8] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 provide protection are:=20 If I would be unfamiliar with SNMP, I would be thinking:=20 "The principal threats against which SNMP Security Models should provide protection are". I don't care what it should do, I can about it can do for me. Can we change the sentence to "The principal threats against which SNMP Security Models can provide protection are" Modification of Information:=20 Information might be altered by an unauthorized entity, e.g. in-=20 transit SNMP messages can be generated to effect unauthorized=20 management operations, including falsifying the value of an=20 object.=20 Masquerade:=20 The masquerade threat is the danger that management operations not authorized for some principal may be attempted by assuming the=20 identity of another principal that has the appropriate=20 authorizations.=20 Secondary threats against which any Security Model used within this=20 architecture should provide protection are:=20 Same remark here. See my next remark. Message Stream Modification:=20 The SNMP protocol is typically based upon a connectionless=20 transport service which may operate over any subnetwork service.=20 The re-ordering, delay or replay of messages can and does occur=20 through the natural operation of many such subnetwork services.=20 The message stream modification threat is the danger that messages may be maliciously re-ordered, delayed or replayed to an extent=20 which is greater than what can occur through the natural operation of a subnetwork service, in order to effect unauthorized=20 management operations.=20 Disclosure:=20 The disclosure threat is the danger of eavesdropping on the=20 exchanges between SNMP engines. Protecting against this threat=20 may be required as a matter of local policy.=20 There are at least two threats against which a Security Model within=20 this architecture need not protect, since they are deemed to be of=20 lesser importance in this context:=20 Denial of Service:=20 A Security Model need not attempt to address the broad range of=20 attacks by which service on behalf of authorized users is denied.=20 Indeed, such denial-of-service attacks are in many cases=20 indistinguishable from the type of network failures with which any viable management protocol must cope as a matter of course.=20 Traffic Analysis:=20 A Security Model need not attempt to address traffic analysis=20 attacks. Many traffic patterns are predictable - entities may be=20 managed on a regular basis by a relatively small number of=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 9] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 management stations - and therefore there is no significant=20 advantage afforded by protecting against traffic analysis.=20 2.3.2. User-Based Security Model (USM)=20 The User Security Model (USM) provides authentication and privacy=20 services for SNMP (RFC3414). Specifically, USM is designed to secure against the following principal threats:=20 o Modification of Information: Alteration of an in-transit message=20 generated by an authorized entity in such a way as to effect=20 unauthorized management operations, including the setting of=20 object values.=20 o Masquerade: Management operations that are not authorized for some entity may be attempted by that entity by assuming the identity of an authorized entity.=20 o Message Stream Modification: SNMP messages (transported over a=20 connectionless protocol) could be reordered, delayed, or replayed=20 (duplicated) to affect unauthorized management operations.=20 o Disclosure: An entity could observe exchanges between a manager=20 and an agent and thereby learn the values of managed objects, and=20 learn of notification events.=20 This is a complete repeat from section 2.3.1. At the end, I'm wondering why we have section 2.3.1 I would merge section 2.3.1 and 2.3.2, and explain what SNMP can do for me. For example, even in the paragraph above, it's confusing. How do the 2 sentences fit together? "Specifically, USM is designed to secure=20 against the following principal threats: " "Message Stream Modification: SNMP messages (transported over a=20 connectionless protocol) could be reordered, delayed, or replayed=20 (duplicated) to affect unauthorized management operations.=20 USM does not secure against Denial of Service and attacks based on=20 Traffic Analysis.=20 The security services the SNMP Security Model supports are:=20 o Data Integrity is the provision of the property that data has not=20 been altered or destroyed in an unauthorized manner, nor have data sequences been altered to an extent greater than can occur non-=20 maliciously.=20 o Data Origin Authentication is the provision of the property that=20 the claimed identity of the user on whose behalf received data was originated is supported.=20 o Data Confidentiality is the provision of the property that=20 information is not made available or disclosed to unauthorized=20 individuals, entities, or processes.=20 o Message timeliness and limited replay protection is the provision=20 of the property that a message whose generation time is outside of a specified time window is not accepted.=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 10] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 See [RFC3414] in [STD62] for a detailed description of SNMPv3 USM.=20 2.3.3. View-Based Access Control Model (VACM)=20 I'm confused by the placement of this section, as 2.3.1, 2.3.2, and 2.3.4 discuss security, while this one doesn't Can we restructure this. The View-Based Access Control facility of SNMP enables the=20 configuration of agents to provide different levels of access to the=20 agent's MIB. An agent entity can restrict access to its MIB for a=20 particular manager entity in two ways:=20 o It can restrict access to a certain portion of its MIB, e.g., an=20 agent may restrict most manager principals to viewing performance- related statistics and allow only a single designated manager=20 principal to view and update configuration parameters.=20 o The agent can limit the operations that a principal can use on=20 that portion of the MIB. E.g., a particular manager principal=20 could be limited to read-only access to a portion of an agent's=20 MIB.=20 The access control policy to be used by an agent must be pre-=20 configured for each manager. The policy is based on a table that=20 details the access privileges of the various authorized managers.=20 VACM defines five elements that make up the Access Control Model:=20 groups, security level, contexts, MIB views, and access policy.=20 See [RFC3415] in [STD62] for a detailed description of SNMPv3 VACM.=20 Explain that we can read, read-write and notification views. 2.3.4. SNMP Transport Subsystem and Transport Security Model=20 The User-based Security Model (USM) was designed to be independent of other existing security infrastructures to ensure it could function=20 when third-party authentication services were not available. As a=20 result, USM utilizes a separate user and key-management=20 infrastructure. Operators have reported that having to deploy=20 another user and key-management infrastructure in order to use SNMPv3 is costly and hinders the deployment of SNMPv3.=20 SNMP Transport Subsystem [RFC5590] extends the existing SNMP=20 framework and transport model and enables the use of transport=20 protocols to provide message security unifying the administrative=20 security management for SNMP, and other management interfaces.=20 Transport Models are tied into the SNMP framework through the=20 Transport Subsystem. The Transport Security Model has been designed=20 to work on top of lower-layer, secure Transport Models. The=20 Transport Security Model [RFC5591] and the Secure Shell Transport=20 Model [RFC5592] utilize the Transport Subsystem.=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 11] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 The Transport Security Model is an alternative to the existing SNMPv1 Security Model [RFC3584], the SNMPv2c Security Model [RFC3584], and=20 the User-based Security Model [RFC3414]. The Secure Shell Transport=20 Model defines furthermore an alternative to existing standard=20 transport mappings described in [RFC3417] such as SNMP over OSI, SNMP over IPX and SNMP over UDP. SNMP over UDP has been so far the most=20 commonly used SNMP transport binding. The Experimental RFC [RFC3430] defines a transport mapping with TCP.=20 The new SNMP Transport Subsystem modifies the Abstract Service=20 Interfaces to pass transport-specific security parameters to other=20 subsystems. This includes transport-specific security parameters=20 that are translated into the transport-independent parameters such as securityName and securityLevel.=20 The SNMP Transport Subsystem utilizes one or more lower-layer=20 security mechanisms to provide message-oriented security services.=20 These include authentication of the sender, encryption, timeliness=20 checking, and data integrity checking.=20 A secure Transport Model establishes an authenticated and possibly=20 encrypted link between the Transport Models of two SNMP engines.=20 After a transport-layer tunnel is established, SNMP messages can be=20 sent through this tunnel from one SNMP engine to the other. The new=20 Transport Model supports sending multiple SNMP messages through the=20 same tunnel to amortize the costs of establishing a security=20 association.=20 The Transport Model on top of a secure transport protocol performs=20 security functions within the Transport Subsystem, including the=20 translation of transport-security parameters to/from Security-Model-=20 independent parameters. To accommodate this, an implementation-=20 specific cache of transport-specific information is introduced and=20 the data flows on this path are extended to pass Security-Model-=20 independent values. For this purpose, the Transport Subsystem=20 extends SNMPv3 Abstract Service Interfaces (ASI). New Security=20 Models can be defined using the modified ASIs and the transport-=20 information cache.=20 [RFC5592] introduces a Transport Model (Secure Shell Transport=20 Model), which makes use of the commonly deployed Secure Shell=20 security infrastructure establishing a channel between itself and the SSH Transport Model of another SNMP engine.=20 Different IETF standards use security layers at the transport or=20 application layer to address security threads (e.g. TLS [RFC5246],=20 Simple Authentication and Security Layer (SASL) [RFC4422], and SSH=20 [RFC4251]). Different management interfaces, e.g. CLI, SYSLOG=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 12] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 [RFC5424] and NETCONF [RFC4741], use a secure transport layer to=20 provide secure information and message exchange to build management=20 applications.=20 Detailed description of the Transport Subsystem for SNMP and=20 Transport Security Model for SNMP can be found in [RFC5590] and=20 [RFC5591]. Secure Shell Transport Model for SNMP is specified in=20 [RFC5592] and Transport Layer Security (TLS) Transport Model for SNMP is described in [RFC5953].=20 2.3.5. RADIUS Authentication and Authorization with SNMP Transport=20 Models=20 [RFC5608] describes the use of a RADIUS (Remote Authentication=20 Dial-In User Service) authentication and authorization service by=20 SNMP secure Transport Models for authentication of users and=20 authorization of secure transport session creation.=20 The secure transport protocols selected for use with RADIUS and SNMP=20 need to support user authentication methods that are compatible with=20 those that exist in RADIUS. Transport Models rely upon the=20 underlying secure transport for user authentication services. The=20 SSH protocol provides a secure transport channel with support for=20 channel authentication via local accounts and integration with=20 various external authentication and authorization services such as=20 RADIUS, Kerberos, etc. SSH Server integration with RADIUS=20 traditionally uses the username and password mechanism.=20 Service authorization and access control authorization are the use=20 cases for RADIUS support of management access via SNMP. User=20 authentication needs to be done prior to each of these use cases.=20 Service authorization allows a RADIUS server to authorize an=20 authenticated principal to use SNMP, optionally over a secure=20 transport, typically using an SNMP Transport Model (see [RFC5608]).=20 Access control authorization, i.e. how RADIUS attributes and messages are applied to the specific application area of SNMP Access Control=20 Models, and VACM in particular is currently being specified in the=20 ISMS (Integrated Security Model for SNMP) WG [I-D.ietf-isms-radius-=20 vacm].=20 2.4. Supplementary Components of the IETF Management Framework=20 2.4.1. NETCONF=20 Add YANG in the title SNMP works well for device monitoring and with its stateless nature=20 SNMP is also useful for statistics and status polling but SNMP has=20 limited configuration management support.=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 13] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 o There is a semantic mismatch between the task-oriented view=20 preferred by operators and the data-centric view provided by SNMP, o SNMP does not separate clearly between configuration data and=20 operational state,=20 o Implementing SNMP transactional model and the protocol constraints is complex, and=20 o SNMP modeling language has limited support for structured data=20 types and relationships among managed objects.=20 The points above are very interesting for a new reader, and should cut/pasted somewhere in the SNMP section. In this section, there are hidden. The IAB workshop on Network Management determined advanced=20 requirements for configuration management [IAB2002]:=20 o Robustness: Minimizing disruptions and maximizing stability,=20 o Support of task-oriented view,=20 o Extensible for new operations,=20 o Standardized error handling,=20 o Clear distinction between configuration data and operational=20 state,=20 o Distribution of configurations to devices under transactional=20 constraints,=20 o Single and multi-system transactions and scalability in the number of transactions and managed devices,=20 o Operations on selected subsets of management data,=20 o Dump and reload a device configuration in a textual format in a=20 standard manner across multiple vendors and device types,=20 o Support a human interface and a programmatic interface,=20 o Data modeling language with a human friendly syntax,=20 o Easy conflict detection and configuration validation, and=20 o Secure transport, authentication, and robust access control.=20 The NETCONF protocol [RFC4741] is a Proposed Standard that provides=20 mechanisms to install, manipulate, and delete the configuration of=20 network devices and aims to address the advanced configuration=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 14] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 management requirements pointed in the IAB workshop. It uses an=20 Extensible Markup Language (XML)-based data encoding for the=20 configuration data as well as the protocol messages. The NETCONF=20 protocol operations are realized on top of a simple and reliable=20 Remote Procedure Call (RPC) layer.=20 A key aspect of NETCONF is that it allows the functionality of the=20 management protocol to closely mirror the native command line=20 interface of the device. This reduces implementation costs and=20 allows timely access to new features. In addition, applications can=20 access both the syntactic and semantic content of the device's native user interface.=20 Additionally NETCONF WG developed the NETCONF Event Notifications=20 Mechanism as an optional capability, which provides an asynchronous=20 message notification delivery service for NETCONF [RFC5277]. NETCONF notification mechanism enables using general purpose notification=20 streams, which can not only transport NETCONF notifications but also=20 alarms from other sources, where the originator of the NETCONF=20 notification stream can be any managed device (e.g. SNMP alarms).=20 NETCONF Partial Locking introduces fine-grained locking of the=20 configuration datastore to enhance NETCONF for fine-grained=20 transactions on parts of the datastore [RFC5717].=20 NETCONF WG also defined the necessary data model to monitor the=20 NETCONF protocol by using YANG. The monitoring data model includes=20 information about NETCONF datastores, sessions, locks, and=20 statistics, which facilitate the management of a NETCONF server.=20 NETCONF monitoring document also defines methods for NETCONF clients=20 to discover data models supported by a NETCONF server and defines a=20 new operation to retrieve them [RFC6022].=20 ADD: Describe how an SNMP agent and a NETCONF server may co-exist on=20 the same managed device using the same datastore for the management=20 data model.=20 NETCONF defined SSH transport binding as the mandatory secure=20 transport of its RPC messages [RFC4742]. Other optional secure=20 transport bindings are available for TLS [RFC5539], BEEP (over TLS)=20 [RFC4744], and SOAP (over HTTP over TLS) [RFC4743]. There is an=20 implementation available using NETCONF over SOAP as a Web Service=20 [RFC5381].=20 Currently NETCONF workgroup is focusing on bug fixing of the NETCONF=20 base protocol standard [4741bis] and the SSH transport protocol=20 mapping [4742bis] as well as the specification of the NETCONF Access=20 Control Model (NACM). NACM is going to provide a secure operating=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 15] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 environment for NETCONF and proposes standard mechanisms to restrict=20 protocol access to particular users with a pre-configured subset of=20 operations and content.=20 NETMOD WG developed YANG as the normative modeling language for the=20 modeling of configuration data for usage with NETCONF. YANG follows=20 the following design goals addressing specific requirements on a modeling language for configuration management:=20 o Allow modeling of standard and vendor defined modules for multi-=20 vendor interoperability,=20 o Define semantics and data organization, i.e. models operational=20 and configuration data, notifications, and operations,=20 o "human-readable", easy to use and text-based,=20 o Enable addition of new content to existing data models and can be=20 extended at IETF as necessary,=20 o Map directly to XML content (on the wire), and=20 o Basic types compatible with SMIv2 and preserves therefore=20 investments in SNMP MIBs.=20 NETMOD WG furthermore developed Common YANG Data Types to be used=20 with YANG [RFC6021] and a guidelines document for authors and=20 reviewers of YANG Data Model Documents [I-D=20 draft-ietf-netmod-yang-usage] as well as the mapping rules for=20 translating YANG data models into Document Schema Definition=20 Languages (DSDL) [I-D.ietf-netmod-dsdl-map]. The architecture=20 document "An Architecture for Network Management using NETCONF and=20 YANG" describes how NETCONF and YANG can help to build network=20 management applications that meet the needs of network operators=20 [I-D.draft-ietf-netmod-arch].=20 IPFIX WG prepared the normative IPFIX/PSAMP configuration model for=20 configuring and monitoring IPFIX and PSAMP compliant Monitoring=20 Devices with the YANG modeling language and is proposing to use=20 NETCONF for the configuration of these entities [I-D.ietf-ipfix-=20 configuration-model].=20 At the time of this writing, the rechartering discussion of the=20 NETMOD WG is ongoing. NETMOD WG aims to focus in its second phase on the development of core system and core interface data models. The=20 WG will not develop models for specific topic areas or workgroups at=20 IETF. Such modeling work will be done in corresponding WGs, e.g.=20 DNSOP WG will develop the DNS configuration model using YANG.=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 16] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 2.4.1.1. YANG - NETCONF Modeling Language=20 Following the guideline and requests of the IAB management workshop=20 the NETMOD workgroup developed a "human-friendly" modeling language=20 defining the semantics of operational data, configuration data,=20 notifications, and operations [RFC6020]. The new modeling language=20 focuses on readability and ease of use and will serve as the=20 normative description of NETCONF data models.=20 ADD: Input from YANG team?=20 this section should be more visible. At least in the table of content. 2.4.2. SYSLOG=20 Missing one important part. Everybody uses http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3164.html these days. Must explain that this RFC is informational only The SYSLOG protocol [RFC5424] allows a machine to send system log=20 messages across networks to event message collectors. The protocol=20 is simply designed to transport these event messages. No=20 acknowledgement of the receipt is made. One of the fundamental=20 tenets of the SYSLOG protocol and process is its simplicity. ... from a development point of view. No=20 stringent coordination is required between the transmitters and the=20 receivers. Indeed, the transmission of SYSLOG messages may be=20 started on a device without a receiver being configured, or even=20 actually physically present. Conversely, many devices will most=20 likely be able to receive messages without explicit configuration or=20 definitions. This simplicity has greatly aided the acceptance and=20 deployment of SYSLOG.=20 Since each process, application and operating system was written=20 somewhat independently, there has been little uniformity to the=20 message format or content of SYSLOG messages.=20 The IETF has developed a new Proposed Standard version of the=20 protocol that allows the use of any number of transport protocols=20 including reliable transports and secure transports [RFC5424]. The=20 IETF has also standardized the application of message security for=20 SYSLOG messages using TLS [RFC5425], and has defined a mechanism to=20 digitally sign log data to ensure its integrity as log data is moved=20 across the network and/or copied to different data stores [RFC5848].=20 =20 Part of RFC5424,... The IETF has standardized a new message header format, including=20 timestamp, hostname, application, and message ID, to improve=20 filtering, interoperability and correlation between compliant=20 implementations.=20 SYSLOG message content has traditionally been unstructured natural=20 language text. This content is human-friendly, but difficult for=20 applications to parse and correlate across vendors, or correlate with other event reporting such as SNMP traps. =20 This paragraph should be moved at the top of the section, after that you introduced RFC 3164. Also you must stress the issue of inconsistencies (level and message) across vendors or even platform types within vendors. Since this is a printf, it's basically for a develop to create his own message. The IETF syslog protocol=20 includes structured data elements to aid application-parsing. The=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 17] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 structured data element design allows vendors to define their own=20 structured data elements to supplement standardized elements.=20 [RFC5675] defines a mapping from SNMP notifications to SYSLOG=20 messages and [RFC5676] defines the corresponding managed objects for=20 this purpose. And [RFC5674] defines the way alarms are send in=20 Syslog, which includes the mapping of ITU perceived severities onto=20 syslog message fields and a number of alarm-specific definitions from ITU-T X.733 and the IETF Alarm MIB.=20 The IETF has standardized MIB Textual-Conventions for facility and=20 severity labels and codes to encourage consistency between syslog and MIB representations of these event properties. The intent is that=20 these textual conventions will be imported and used in MIB modules=20 that would otherwise define their own representations. [RFC5427]=20 [RFC5848] "Signed Syslog Messages" defines a mechanism to add origin=20 authentication, message integrity, replay resistance, message=20 sequencing, and detection of missing messages to the transmitted=20 syslog messages to be used in conjunction with the Syslog protocol.=20 The Syslog protocol layered architecture provides for support of any=20 number of transport mappings. However, for interoperability=20 purposes, syslog protocol implementers are required to support the=20 transmission of Syslog Messages over UDP as defined in [RFC5426].=20 IETF furthermore defined the TLS transport mapping for Syslog in=20 [RFC5425], which provides a secure connection for the transport of=20 syslog messages and describes the security threats to syslog and how=20 TLS can be used to counter such threats. Datagram Transport Layer=20 Security (DTLS) Transport Mapping for Syslog is defined in [RFC6012], which can be used in cases where a connection-less transport is=20 desired.=20 IETF working groups are encouraged to standardize structured data=20 elements, extensible human-friendly text, and consistent facility/=20 severity values for SYSLOG to report events specific to their=20 protocol.=20 2.4.3. IPFIX/PSAMP=20 =09 IPFIX [RFC5101] is a Proposed Standard, which defines a push-based=20 data export mechanism for formatting and transferring IP flow information from an exporter to a collector. PSAMP defines a standard set of capabilities for network elements to sample subsets=20 of packets by statistical and other methods.=20 =09 The IPFIX working group=20 sometimes you use WG, sometimes not. has specified the Information Model (to=20 describe IP flows) and the IPFIX protocol for the export of flow=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 18] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 information from routers or measurement probes to external systems=20 [RFC5101], [RFC5102]. IPFIX protocol exports flow data e.g. from=20 routers and probes (IPv4, IPv6) and works on top of UDP, TCP or SCTP. Well SCTP is a must, not the others. Several applications using the IPFIX protocol are available.=20 IPFIX [RFC5101] is a Proposed Standard approach for transmitting IP=20 traffic flow information over the network from an exporting process=20 to an information collecting process. IPFIX defines a common=20 representation of flow data and a standard means of communicating the data over a number of transport protocols.=20 [RFC3917] specifies the observation point, flows, exporting and the=20 collecting process as well as a metering process that consists of a=20 packet header capturing, time stamping, classifying, sampling, and=20 maintaining flow records.=20 yes but RFC3917 is informational. RFC3917 specifies the requirements. IPFIX Information Model defines Information Elements (IEs) for=20 distinguishing flows and for reporting flow characteristics=20 [RFC5102]. Information Model for PSAMP extends the IPFIX information model by IEs for packet header and payload information [RFC5477] and=20 defines packet selection methods for filtering and sampling of such=20 data. IPFIX and PSAMP packet sampling use the same packet processing (aka. packet mediation). PSAMP packet information is exported with=20 the IPFIX protocol based on a shared information model.=20 The IPFIX WG has developed an XML-based configuration data model in=20 close collaboration with the NETMOD WG and uses YANG as modeling=20 language [I-D.ietf-ipfix-configuration-model]. The model specifies=20 the necessary data for configuring and monitoring selection=20 processes, caches, exporting processes, and collecting processes of=20 IPFIX and PSAMP compliant monitoring devices.=20 At the time of this writing a framework for IPFIX flow mediation is=20 in preparation, which addresses the need for mediation of flow=20 information in IPFIX applications in large operator networks, e.g.=20 for aggregating huge amounts of flow data and for anonymization of=20 flow information. IPFIX Mediation Framework defines the intermediate device between Exporters and Collectors, which provides an IPFIX=20 Mediation by receiving a record stream from e.g. a Collecting=20 Process, hosting one or more Intermediate Processes to transform this stream, and exporting the transformed record stream into IPFIX=20 Messages via an Exporting Process [I-D.ietf-ipfix-mediators-=20 framework].=20 The work on IP Flow Anonymization Support describes anonymization=20 techniques for IP flow data and the export of anonymized data=20 [I-D.ietf-ipfix-anon].=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 19] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 The document 'IPFIX Export per SCTP Stream' [I-D.ietf-ipfix-export-=20 per-sctp-stream] specifies a reliability extension based on a method=20 for exporting a Template Record and its associated Data Sets in a=20 single SCTP stream, for limiting each Template ID to a single SCTP=20 stream and imposing in-order transmission.=20 [I-D.ietf-ipfix-structured-data] proposes an extension to the IPFIX=20 protocol to support the export of hierarchically structured data and=20 lists (sequences) of Information Elements in data records. The=20 document describes how to distribute structured data with an abstract data type and a new Information Element, e.g. for the distribution of security keys or performance measures. This application can also be=20 used for the distribution of logging information if standard SYSLOG=20 based logging is not available.=20 There are several applications such as usage-based accounting,=20 traffic profiling, traffic engineering, intrusion detection, and QoS=20 monitoring, that require flow-based traffic measurements, which can=20 be realized on top of IPFIX. IPFIX can also be used e.g. for the=20 monitoring of the protocols like SIP and the related media transfer,=20 which is indeed based on flows on application layer. The=20 requirements to such a monitoring application are e.g. measuring=20 signaling quality (e.g., session request delay, session completion=20 ratio, or hops for request), media QoS (e.g., jitter, delay or bit=20 rate), and user experience (e.g., Mean Opinion Score).=20 Several applications require sampling packets from specific data=20 flows, or across multiple data flows, and reporting information about the packets. Measurement-based network management is a prime=20 example. The PSAMP WG developed the protocol for reporting observed=20 packets by extending the IPFIX protocol. In order to reduce the=20 amount of data to be processed for selecting observed IP packets,=20 packet selection methods have been defined.=20 PSAMP standardizes sampling, selection, metering, and reporting=20 strategies for different purposes and includes support for packet=20 sampling in IPv4, IPv6, and MPLS-based networks. To simplify the=20 solution, the IPFIX protocol is used for the export of the PSAMP=20 reports to collector applications.=20 NOTE: Input from IPFIX WG?=20 yes, I would like to improve this. Missing biflow, file, IPFIX-structured data, etc... 3. Management Protocols and Mechanisms with specific Focus=20 This section reviews additional protocols IETF offers for management=20 and discusses for which applications they were designed and/or=20 already successfully deployed. These are protocols that have mostly=20 reached or short before Proposed Standard status or higher within the Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 20] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 IETF.=20 3.1. IP Address Management with DHCP=20 BOOTP (Bootstrap Protocol), originally defined in [RFC951], has been=20 used by network clients during the bootstrap process to obtain an IP=20 address from a configuration server. BOOTP requires manual=20 intervention to add configuration information for each client, and=20 does not provide a mechanism for reclaiming disused IP addresses.=20 The Draft Standard Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP)=20 [RFC2131] was defined as an extension to BOOTP. DHCP provides a=20 framework for passing configuration information to hosts on a TCP/IP=20 network and does as such enable autoconfiguration in IP networks. In addition to IP address management, DHCP can also provide other=20 configuration information, particularly the IP addresses of local=20 caching DNS resolvers or servers providing servers. As described in=20 [I-D.baker-ietf-core] DHCP can be used for IPv4 and IPv6 Address=20 Allocation and Assignment as well as Service Discovery.=20 There are two versions of DHCP, one for IPv4 [RFC2131] and one for=20 IPv6 [RFC3315]. While both versions bear the same name and perform=20 much the same purpose, the details of the protocol for IPv4 and IPv6=20 are sufficiently different that they can be considered separate=20 protocols.=20 Following are examples, where DHCP options have been used to provide=20 configuration information or access to specific servers.=20 o [RFC3646] describes two DHCPv6 options for passing a list of=20 available DNS recursive name servers and a domain search list to a client.=20 o [RFC2610] describes how entities using the Service Location=20 Protocol can find out the address of Directory Agents in order to=20 transact messages and how the assignment of scope for=20 configuration of SLP User and Service Agents can be achieved.=20 o [RFC3319] specifies two DHCPv6 options that allow SIP clients to=20 locate a local SIP server that is to be used for all outbound SIP=20 requests, a so-called outbound proxy server.=20 o [RFC4280] defines new options to discover the Broadcast and=20 Multicast Service (BCMCS) controller in an IP network.=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 21] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 3.2. IPv6 Network Operations=20 The IPv6 Operations Working Group (v6ops) develops guidelines for the operation of a shared IPv4/IPv6 Internet and provides operational=20 guidance on how to deploy IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, as=20 well as into new network installations.=20 NOTE: Input planned from V6ops Workgroup.=20 3.3. SNMP Agent Extensibility (AgentX) Protocol=20 The Draft Standard [RFC2741] "Agent Extensibility (AgentX) Protocol"=20 defines a framework for extensible SNMP agents including master=20 agents and subagents, the AgentX protocol used to communicate between them, and how the extensible agent processes SNMP protocol messages.=20 Within the SNMP framework, a managed node contains a processing=20 entity called agent, which has access to management information.=20 Within the AgentX framework, an agent is further defined to consist=20 of:=20 o a single processing entity called the master agent, which sends=20 and receives SNMP protocol messages in an agent role (as specified by the SNMP framework documents) but typically has little or no=20 direct access to management information, and=20 o zero or more processing entities called subagents, which are=20 "shielded" from the SNMP protocol messages processed by the master agent, but which have access to management information.=20 The internal operations of AgentX are invisible to an SNMP entity=20 operating in a manager role. From a manager's point of view, an=20 extensible agent behaves exactly as would a non-extensible=20 (monolithic) agent that has access to the same management=20 instrumentation.=20 [RFC2741] specifies furthermore a TCP binding for the AgentX=20 protocol.=20 The Draft Standard [RFC2742] "Definitions of Managed Objects for=20 Extensible SNMP Agents" describes objects managing SNMP agents that=20 use the AgentX Protocol and specifies a MIB module, which is=20 compliant to the SMIv2, and semantically identical to the peer SMIv1=20 definitions.=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 22] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 3.4. Radius=20 Radius [RFC2865],=20 RADIUS the remote Authentication Dial In User Service, is=20 a Draft Standard that describes a client/server protocol for carrying authentication, authorization, and configuration information between=20 a Network Access Server (NAS), which desires to authenticate its=20 links and a shared Authentication Server.=20 This protocol is widely implemented and is used in environments like=20 enterprise networks, where a single administrative authority manages=20 the network, and protects the privacy of user information.=20 RADIUS is extensible with Vendor-Specific Attributes (VSAs), which=20 are mostly vendor-specific.=20 The RADIUS protocol uses a shared secret along with the MD5 hashing=20 algorithm to secure passwords. Based on the known threads additional protection like IPsec tunnels are used to further protect the RADIUS=20 traffic.=20 Radius has been prepared to use over UDP port 1812 for RADIUS=20 Authentication and 1813 for RADIUS Accounting assigned by IANA.=20 [RFC3162] 'RADIUS and IPv6' specifies the operation of RADIUS over=20 IPv6 and the RADIUS attributes used to support the IPv6 network=20 access.=20 [RFC4675] 'RADIUS Attributes for Virtual LAN and Priority Support'=20 defines additional attributes for dynamic Virtual LAN assignment and=20 prioritization, for use in provisioning of access to IEEE 802 local=20 area networks usable with Radius and Diameter.=20 [RFC5080] 'Common RADIUS Implementation Issues and Suggested Fixes'=20 describes common issues seen in RADIUS implementations and suggests=20 some fixes. Where applicable, unclear statements and errors in=20 previous RADIUS specifications are clarified.=20 [RFC5090] 'RADIUS Extension for Digest Authentication' defines an=20 extension to the RADIUS protocol to enable support of Digest=20 Authentication, for use with HTTP-style protocols like the Session=20 Initiation Protocol (SIP) and HTTP.=20 [RFC5580] 'Carrying Location Objects in RADIUS and Diameter describes procedures for conveying access-network ownership and location=20 information based on civic and geospatial location formats in RADIUS=20 and Diameter.=20 NOTE: Need more discussion of Radius RFCs and use cases.=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 23] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 3.5. Diameter=20 When a name is not an acronym, one sentence of explanation would help. Idem for syslog btw. Same thing for CAPWAP. I read the next section, but I've got no clue what it's supposed to stand for. Diameter [RFC3588] is a Proposed Standard that provides an=20 Authentication, Authorization and Accounting (AAA) framework for=20 applications such as network access or IP mobility. Diameter is also intended to work in local Authentication, Authorization, Accounting=20 situations and in roaming situations. Diameter is not directly=20 backwards compatible, but provides an upgrade path for RADIUS.=20 Diameter is designed to resolve a number of known problems with=20 RADIUS. Diameter supports server failover, reliable transport over=20 TCP and SCTP, agents for proxy and redirect and relay, server-=20 initiated messages, auditability, and capability negotiation.=20 Diameter also provides a larger attribute space for attribute-value=20 pairs (AVPs) and identifiers than Radius. Diameter features make it=20 especially appropriate for environments where the providers of=20 services are in different administrative domains than the maintainer=20 (protector) of confidential user information.=20 Other important differences to Radius are:=20 - Use of reliable transport protocols (TCP or SCTP, not UDP),=20 - Network and transport layer security (IPsec or TLS),=20 - Stateful and stateless models,=20 - Dynamic discovery of peers (using DNS SRV and NAPTR),=20 - Supports application layer acknowledgements, defines failover=20 methods and state machines [RFC3539],=20 - Error notification,=20 - Better roaming support,=20 - Easier to extend, and=20 - Basic support for user-sessions and accounting.=20 The Diameter protocol has been enhanced for the use with 3GPP IP=20 Multimedia Subsystem (IMS). Different IMS interfaces (e.g. Cx) are=20 supported by Diameter applications [3GPPIMS].=20 The protocol is designed to be extensible to support e.g. proxies,=20 brokers, mobility and roaming, Network Access Servers (NASREQ), and=20 Accounting and Resource Management. Diameter applications extend the Diameter base protocol by adding new commands and/or attributes.=20 Each application is defined by an application identifier and can add=20 new command codes and/or new mandatory Attribute-Value Pairs (AVPs).=20 Following are examples of Diameter applications:=20 - Diameter Mobile IPv4 Application [RFC4004],=20 - Diameter Network Access Server Application (NASREQ, [RFC4005]),=20 - Diameter Extensible Authentication Protocol Application [RFC4072],=20 - Diameter Credit-Control Application [RFC4006],=20 - Diameter Session Initiation Protocol Application [RFC4740], and=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 24] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 - Diameter Quality-of-Service Application [RFC5866].=20 [RFC5516] 'Diameter Command Code Registration for the Third=20 Generation Partnership Project (3GPP) Evolved Packet System (EPS)'=20 registers a set of IANA Diameter Command Codes to use in new vendor-=20 specific Diameter applications defined for the 3GPP) Evolved Packet=20 System (EPS).=20 [RFC5447] 'Diameter Mobile IPv6: Support for Network Access Server to Diameter Server Interaction' describes the bootstrapping of the=20 Mobile IPv6 framework and the support of interworking with existing=20 Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructures=20 by using the Diameter Network Access Server to home AAA server=20 interface.=20 [RFC5777] 'Traffic Classification and Quality of Service (QoS)=20 Attributes for Diameter' defines a number of Diameter AVPs for=20 traffic classification with actions for filtering and Quality of=20 Service (QoS) treatment.=20 [RFC5729] 'Clarifications on the Routing of Diameter Requests Based=20 on the Username and the Realm' defines the behavior required of=20 Diameter agents to route requests when the User-Name AVP contains a=20 Network Access Identifier formatted with multiple realms. These=20 multi-realm Network Access Identifiers are used in order to force the routing of request messages through a predefined list of mediating=20 realms.=20 The IANA has assigned TCP and SCTP port number 3868 to Diameter.=20 NOTE: Need more discussion of Diameter RFCs and use cases.=20 3.6. CAPWAP=20 Wireless LAN product architectures have evolved from single=20 autonomous access points to systems consisting of a centralized=20 Access Controller (AC) and Wireless Termination Points (WTPs). The=20 general goal of centralized control architectures is to move access=20 control, including user authentication and authorization, mobility=20 management, and radio management from the single access point to a=20 centralized controller.=20 Based on the CAPWAP Architecture Taxonomy work [RFC4118] CAPWAP=20 workgroup developed the CAPWAP protocol to facilitate control,=20 management and provisioning of WLAN Termination Points (WTPs)=20 specifying the services, functions and resources relating to 802.11=20 WLAN Termination Points in order to allow for interoperable=20 implementations of WTPs and ACs. The protocol defines the CAPWAP=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 25] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 control plane including the primitives to control data access. The=20 protocol document also defines how configuration management of WTPs=20 can be done and defines CAPWAP operations responsible for debugging,=20 gathering statistics, logging, and firmware management as well as=20 discusses operational and transport considerations.=20 CAPWAP protocol is defined to be independent of Layer 2 technologies, and meets the objectives in "Objectives for Control and Provisioning=20 of Wireless Access Points (CAPWAP)" [RFC4564]. Separate binding=20 extensions enable the use with additional wireless technologies.=20 [RFC5416] defines CAPWAP Protocol Binding for IEEE 802.11.=20 CAPWAP Base MIB [RFC5833] describes managed objects for modeling the=20 CAPWAP Protocol and provides configuration and WTP status-monitoring=20 aspects of CAPWAP, where CAPWAP Binding MIB [RFC5834] describes=20 managed objects for modeling of CAPWAP protocol for IEEE 802.11=20 wireless binding.=20 (RFC 5833 and RFC 5834 have been published as Informational RFCs to=20 provide the basis for future work on a SNMP management of the CAPWAP=20 protocol.)=20 3.7. Access Node Control Protocol=20 The Access Node Control Protocol (ANCP) [I-D.ietf-ancp-protocol]=20 realizes a control plane between a service-oriented layer 3 edge=20 device (the Network Access Server, NAS) and a layer 2 Access Node=20 (e.g., Digital Subscriber Line Access Module, DSLAM). As such ANCP=20 operates in a multi-service reference architecture and communicates=20 QoS-, service- and subscriber-related configurations and operations=20 between a NAS and an Access Node.=20 The main goal of this protocol is to configure and manage access=20 equipments and allow them to report information to the NAS in order=20 to enable and optimize configuration.=20 Framework and Requirements for an Access Node Control Mechanism and=20 the use cases for ANCP are documented in [RFC5851]. Security Threats and Security Requirements for ANCP are discussed in [RFC5713].=20 3.8. Ad-Hoc Network Autoconfiguration=20 Ad-hoc nodes need to configure their network interfaces with locally=20 unique addresses as well as globally routable IPv6 addresses, in=20 order to communicate with devices on the Internet. AUTOCONF WG=20 developed [RFC5889], which describes the addressing model for ad-hoc=20 networks and how nodes in these networks configure their addresses.=20 The ad-hoc nodes under consideration are expected to be able to=20 Ersue Expires April 28, 2011 [Page 26] =20 Internet-Draft IETF Management Framework October 2010 support multi-hop communication by running MANET routing protocols as developed by the IETF MANET WG.=20 From the IP layer perspective, an ad hoc network presents itself as a layer 3 multi-hop network formed over a collection of links. The=20 addressing model aims to avoid problems for ad-hoc-unaware parts of=20 the system, such as standard applications running on an ad-hoc node=20 or regular Internet nodes attached to the ad-hoc nodes.=20 3.9. Policy-based Management=20 3.9.1. This is where I arrived. My flight was long, but it was not long enough ;-) Regards, Benoit. =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.BB6CFB56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Hi Benoit,

=  

= >> DIAMETER uses port number 3868 for TCP and = SCTP.

= > So just be consistent. Either you give the ports for all protocols, = or for none of them.

= Agree. The document is not about IANA port = numbers.

=  

= Cheers,
= Mehmet

=

From: ext Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
Sent: = Wednesday, December 01, 2010 1:15 AM
To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - = DE/Munich)
Cc: opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Review = of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part = 1

 

Hi Mehmet, =

= Hi Benoit,

=  

= thank you for your comments.

=  

> Below is a couple of high level points:

> - add a section about IPPM. Btw, I never understood why IPPM = was not in OPS. My customers see active monitoring as OPS, and they = don't care whether the packet loss, jitter,

> delay, or whatever perf. metric come from active or passive. = Since I'm following IPPM, I could write a section on this = later.

=  

= Actually there is a chapter on IPPM, maybe it is not sufficient yet. =

Now that I reviewed the = second part of the draft, I see it. ;-)

=          =

> - I would like to see YANG appear in the table of content, as = this will be important in the future. A proposal in that direction in = the text below

=  

= Agree, NETCONF and YANG belong together.

=  

> - an EMAN section is missing. I could write it = later.

=  

= This is the point I was trying to explain. Since the document is a kind = of standard survey there is not much to write on EMAN yet. I agree it is = important and should be described  as new = work.

Yes, maybe without = referring to the IETF drafts, not be stuck in the RFC-editor queue = forever.

=  

> - multiple times, you refer to "data model". Please = refer to RFC3444

=  

= RFC 3444 should be referred.

=  

> - sometimes you use SYSLOG or syslog. You should take the = convention that only the acronyms are upper case. For example: SNMP, = RADIUS.

> - I would like to rewrite/improve the IPFIX/PSAMP = section.

=  

= I asked already Juergen Quittek for IPFIX/PSAMP and with Dave Harrington = for SNMP. But I am fine with your edits too. You guys can decide who is = doing what.

=  

> - How far do you want in referring existing drafts. You might = be stuck for ever for waiting for all drafts to become RFCs. Example: = I-D.baker-ietf-core.  You should mention your =

> guidelines somewhere. Something such as: "This RFC is = based on the current status in OPS in 2011. While there are currently = many drafts that improve the protocols in OPS at the =

> IETF, they are not referenced. This document should have an = update every X years" ...

=  

= I think some of the new work is filling an essential gap and should be = mentioned. I know that we can’t refer drafts consistently so they = will be cleaned up before publication.

=  

> - v6ops is weak, but you noted that. = ;-)

> - Personally, I never heard of AgentX, even if I've been in = network management for many years. For my information, is it used = somewhere in the industry? If not, is it worth

> mentioning?

=  

= I think there are companies using AgentX but this does not mean it is = really important. Let’s see what others = say.

=  

> - Do you want to mention IANA ports? It seems that you do it, = but inconsistently. For example, it's done for RADIUS, but not SNMP, = IPFIX and others.

=  

= Actually I don’t want to go into IANA space. We can give a link = though where people can look at.

I mean, for example:

   =
RADIUS has been prepared to use over UDP port 1812 for =
RADIUS
   Authentication and 1813 for =
RADIUS Accounting.

      = ...

   DIAMETER uses port number 3868 for =
TCP and SCTP.

So just be = consistent. Either you give the ports for all protocols, or for none of = them.

=  

> - MIB: you should explain how to search if the IETF has = standardized a MIB module for a specific area.

=  

= AFAIK there is no IETF tool to search for MIB objects. I would suggest = to focus right now on the core part of the = draft.

=  

= Concerning Terminology section: I think we should have here only the = basic NM terminology.

=  

= Concerning other issues below: I will try to consider them. We need = probably a conf call at some point.

Sure. Let me know.

Regards, = Benoit

=  

= Cheers,
= Mehmet

 

From: ext Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] =
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 4:06 PM
To: opsawg@ietf.org; Ersue, Mehmet (NSN = - DE/Munich)
Subject: Review of = draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part = 1

 

Hi Mehmet,

As promised, here is my review. Only part = 1 for now: part 2 will follow.

Below is a couple of high level = points:
- add a section about IPPM. Btw, I never understood why IPPM = was not in OPS. My customers see active monitoring as OPS, and they = don't care whether the packet loss, jitter, delay, or whatever perf. = metric come from active or passive. Since I'm following IPPM, I could = write a section on this later.
- I would like to see YANG appear in = the table of content, as this will be important in the future. A = proposal in that direction in the text below
- an EMAN section is = missing. I could write it later.
- multiple times, you refer to = "data model". Please refer to RFC3444
- sometimes you use = SYSLOG or syslog. You should take the convention that only the acronyms = are upper case. For example: SNMP, RADIUS.
- I would like to = rewrite/improve the IPFIX/PSAMP section.
- How far do you want in = referring existing drafts. You might be stuck for ever for waiting for = all drafts to become RFCs. Example: I-D.baker-ietf-core.  You = should mention your guidelines somewhere. Something such as: "This = RFC is based on the current status in OPS in 2011. While there are = currently many drafts that improve the protocols in OPS at the IETF, = they are not referenced. This document should have an update every X = years" ...
- v6ops is weak, but you noted that. ;-)
- = Personally, I never heard of AgentX, even if I've been in network = management for many years. For my information, is it used somewhere in = the industry? If not, is it worth mentioning?
- Do you want to = mention IANA ports? It seems that you do it, but inconsistently. For = example, it's done for RADIUS, but not SNMP, IPFIX and others.
- MIB: = you should explain how to search if the IETF has standardized a MIB = module for a specific area.
- Along the same line (Data models), do = you want to mention where to look:
    example: IPFIX = IANA IE
    example: RADIUS IANA
    = etc...


See = inline.




Network Working = Group           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;       M. Ersue =
Internet-Draft         &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;  Nokia Siemens Networks
Intended status: = Informational          =             &= nbsp;   October 25, 2010
Expires: April 28, 2011 =


 An Overview of the IETF Network Management Framework = and its Standards =
           &nb= sp;      draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01 =

Abstract

   This document gives an overview of = the IETF standard management
   framework and summarizes = existing and ongoing development of IETF
   = standards-track network management protocols and data models.  The =
   purpose of this document is on the one hand to help = system developers
   and users to select appropriate = standard management protocols and
   data models to = address relevant management needs.  On the other hand =
   the document can be used as an overview and guideline = by other SDOs
   or bodies planning to use IETF management = technologies and data
   models.

Status of This = Memo

   This Internet-Draft is submitted in full = conformance with the
   provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79. =

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the = Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF).  Note that = other groups may also distribute
   working documents as = Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
   = Drafts is at
http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents = valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, = replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   = time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference =
   material or to cite them other than as "work in = progress."

   This Internet-Draft will expire on = April 28, 2011.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright = (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
   = document authors.  All rights reserved.

   This = document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal =
   Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
   = (
http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
   publication of = this document.  Please review these documents
   = carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect =



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   to this document.  Code = Components extracted from this document must
   include = Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of =
   the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without = warranty as
   described in the Simplified BSD License. =

Table of Contents

   1.  Introduction . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  4 =
     1.1.  Terminology  . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  5
   2.  IETF = Standard Management Framework . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  6 =
     2.1.  Simple Network Management = Protocol (SNMP) and its =
           = Architectural Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  6 =
     2.2.  SNMP and its Versions  . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  7
     = 2.3.  SNMP Security  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = .  8
       2.3.1.  Security = Requirements on the SNMP Management =
           &nb= sp;   Framework  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . .  8
       2.3.2.  = User-Based Security Model (USM)  . . . . . . . . . . . 10 =
       2.3.3.  View-Based Access = Control Model (VACM) . . . . . . . . 11 =
       2.3.4.  SNMP Transport = Subsystem and Transport Security =
           &nb= sp;   Model  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . 11
       2.3.5.  RADIUS = Authentication and Authorization with SNMP =
           &nb= sp;   Transport Models . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 13
     2.4.  Supplementary Components of = the IETF Management =
           = Framework  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 =
       2.4.1.  NETCONF  . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 =
       2.4.2.  SYSLOG . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 =
       2.4.3.  IPFIX/PSAMP  = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
   3.  = Management Protocols and Mechanisms with specific Focus  . . . 20 =
     3.1.  IP Address Management with = DHCP  . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21
     = 3.2.  IPv6 Network Operations  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . 22
     3.3.  SNMP Agent Extensibility = (AgentX) Protocol . . . . . . . . 22
     = 3.4.  Radius . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 =
     3.5.  Diameter . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24
     3.6.  = CAPWAP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 =
     3.7.  Access Node Control Protocol . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26
     3.8.  = Ad-Hoc Network Autoconfiguration . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 =
     3.9.  Policy-based Management  . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 =
       3.9.1.  IETF Policy = Framework  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 =
       3.9.2.  COPS-PR  . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 =
     3.10. Network Performance Management . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . 28
       = 3.10.1. IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)  . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 =
       3.10.2. Real-time Flow = Measurement (RTFM)  . . . . . . . . . . 29 =
     3.11. Application Management Protocols . . = . . . . . . . . . . . 30
       = 3.11.1. ACAP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 =
       3.11.2. XCAP . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 =
       3.11.3. EPP  . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
   4.  = Proposed, Draft and Standard Level Data Models . . . . . . . . 31 =
     4.1.  Fault Management . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31 =



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     4.2.  = Configuration Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33 =
     4.3.  Accounting Management  . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
     = 4.4.  Performance Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 =
     4.5.  Security Management  . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36
   5.  IANA = Considerations  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 =
   6.  Security Considerations  . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . 37
   7.  Contributors . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37
   8.  = Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 =
   9.  Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . 37
   Appendix A.  New Work related = to IETF Management Framework . . . . 53
     = A.1.  Energy Management (eman) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53 =
   Appendix B.  Open issues . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . 55 =

















<= br>



















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1.  Introduction

   This = document gives an overview of the IETF standard management =
   framework and summarizes existing and ongoing = development of IETF
   standards-track network management = protocols and data models.  The
   purpose of this = document is on the one hand to help system developers
   = and users to select appropriate standard management protocols and =
   data models to address relevant management needs.  = On the other hand
   the document can be used as an = overview and guideline by other SDOs
   or bodies planning = to use IETF management technologies and data
   = models.  The document can be also used to initiate a discussion =
   between the bodies with the goal to gather new = management
   requirements and to detect possible gaps. =

   [I-D.baker-ietf-core] identifies the key protocols = of the Internet
   Protocol Suite for use in the Smart = Grid.  The target audience is
   those people seeking = guidance on how to construct an appropriate
   Internet = Protocol Suite profile for the Smart Grid.  In analogy to =
   [I-D.baker-ietf-core] this document gives an overview = on the IETF
   management framework and technologies and = will show usage scenarios
   addressing the Smart Grid = environment.

   The Overview of the 2002 IAB Network = Management Workshop [RFC3535]
   documented strengths and = weaknesses of some IETF management
   protocols.  In = choosing existing protocol solutions to meet the
   = management requirements, it is recommended that these strengths and =
   weaknesses be considered.  Some of the = recommendations from the 2002
   IAB workshop have become = outdated, some have been standardized, and
   some are = being worked on at the IETF.

   Guidelines for = Considering Operations and Management of New Protocols
   = and Extensions [RFC5706] recommends working groups to consider =
   operations and management needs, and then select = appropriate
   management protocols and data models.  = This document can be used to
   ease surveying the IETF = standards-track network management protocols
   and = management data models.

   Section 2 gives an overview = of the IETF standard management framework
   with a = special focus on Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) and =
   supplementary components of the IETF management = framework such as
   NETCONF, SYSLOG and IPFIX.  = Section 3 discusses IETF management
   protocols and = mechanisms with a specific focus and their use cases.
   = Section 4 discusses Proposed, Draft and Standard Level data models, =

RFC3444



   such as MIBs designed = to address specific set of issues and maps them
   to = different management tasks.

   IETF specifications = must have "multiple, independent, and
   = interoperable implementations" before they can be advanced to Draft =



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   Standard status.  An Internet = Standard, which may simply be referred
   to as a = Standard, is characterized by a high degree of technical =
   maturity and by a generally held belief that the = specified protocol
   or service provides significant = benefit to the Internet community
   [RFC2026]. =

   This document mainly refers to Proposed, Draft or = Full Standard
   documents at IETF.  =

Give a = reference to those, as your audience is also other = SDOs


As far as it is valuable standard track I-Ds just =
   before publication and Best Current Practice (BCP) = documents are
   referenced.  In exceptional cases = and if the document provides
   substantial guideline for = standard usage Informational RFCs are
   noticed. =

   Note: This document uses the expired draft = [I-D.ietf-opsawg-survey-
   management] edited by Dave = Harrington as a starting point and
   enhances it with a = special focus on the description of the IETF
   Standard = Management Framework and SNMP security as well as aims to =
   extend it with explanation of the standards, their = usage scenarios
   and new development at IETF. =

   Note: The document does not cover OAM technologies = on the data-path,
   e.g.  OAM of tunnels, MPLS-TP = OAM, Pseudowire, etc.  [I-D.ietf-
   = opsawg-oam-overview] gives an overview on the OAM toolset for =
   detecting and reporting connection failures or = measurement of
   connection performance parameters.  = [I-D.ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework]
   describes the OAM = Framework for MPLS-based Transport Networks.

1.1.  = Terminology

   This document does not describe = standard requirements.  Therefore key
   words from = RFC2119 are not used in the document.

   o  CLI: = Command Line Interface

   o  Data model: A = mapping of the contents of an information model into =
      a form that is specific to a = particular type of data store or
      = repository.

RFC3444



   o  = Information model: An abstraction and representation of the =
      entities in a managed environment, = their properties, attributes
      and = operations, and the way that they relate to each other.  It is =
      independent of any specific = repository, software usage, protocol,
      = or platform.

RFC3444


   NOTE: To be filled out! =

Not sure = what you want to do.
For example, we have terms defined for Flow, = Flow Record, Template, Metering Process, etc...
Sure, they could be = referenced in this section, we could use the capitalized letter, but = this is a huge job.
Not sure it's worth = it.








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2.  IETF Standard Management Framework =

2.1.  Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) and its = Architectural
      Principles =

   As described in [RFC3410] the current version of = the Internet
   Standard Management Framework, the SNMPv3 = Framework, builds upon both
   the original SNMPv1 and = SNMPv2 Management Framework.  The basic
   structure = and components for the Internet Standard Management
   = Framework did not change between its versions and comprises following =
   components:

   o  managed nodes, = each with an SNMP entity providing remote access to =
      management instrumentation (the = agent),

   o  at least one SNMP entity with = management applications (the
      = manager), and

   o  a management protocol used to = convey management information
      between = the SNMP entities, and management information.

   = During its evolution, the fundamental architecture of the Internet =
   Standard Management Framework remained consistent based = on a modular
   architecture, which consists of: =

   o  a generic protocol definition independent = of the data it is
      carrying, and =

   o  a protocol-independent data definition = language,

   o  a virtual database containing = data sets of management information
      = definitions (the Management Information Base, or MIB), and =

   o  security and administration. =

   As such following standards build up the basis of = the current IETF
   Standard Management Framework: =

   o  SNMPv3 protocol,

   = o  the modeling language SMIv2, and

   o  = MIBs for different management issues.

   The SNMPv3 = Framework extends the architectural principles of SNMPv1 =
   and SNMPv2 by: =





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   o  building on these three = basic architectural components, in some =
      cases incorporating them from the = SNMPv2 Framework by reference,
      and =

   o  by using the same layering principles in = the definition of new
      capabilities in = the security and administration portion of the =
      architecture.

2.2.  SNMP = and its Versions

   SNMP is based on three conceptual = entities: Manager, Agent, and the
   Management = Information Base (MIB).  In any configuration, at least =
   one manager node runs SNMP management software.  = Network devices such
   as bridges, routers, and servers = are equipped with an agent.  The
   agent is = responsible for providing access to a local MIB of objects =
   that reflects the resources and activity at its = node.  Following the
   manager-agent paradigm, an = agent can generate notifications and send
   them as = unsolicited messages to the management application.

   = To enhance this basic functionality, a new version of SNMP has been =
   introduced in 1993.  SNMPv2 added bulk transfer = capability and other
   functional extensions like an = administrative model for access
   control, security = extensions, and Manager-to-Manager communication. =

Also the = informs have been introduced.


   SNMPv2 entities can = have a dual role as manager and agent.  However,
   = neither SNMPv1 nor SNMPv2 offers sufficient security features.  To =
   address the security deficiencies of SNMPv1/v2, SNMPv3 = was issued as
   a set of Proposed Standards in January = 1998 (see [STD62]).

   The BCP document [BCP0074] = "Coexistence between Version 1, Version 2,
   and = Version 3 of the Internet-standard Network Management Framework" =
   gives an overview of the relevant standard documents on = the three
   SNMP versions.  The BCP document = furthermore describes how to convert
   MIB modules from = SMIv1 format to SMIv2 format and how to translate
   = notification parameters as well as describes the mapping between the =
   message processing and security models (see [RFC3584]). =

   SNMP utilizes the Management Information Base, a = virtual information
   store of modules of managed = objects.  MIB module support is uneven
   across = vendors, and even within devices. 

Not sure what you = mean?


The lack of standard MIB
   module support = for all functionality in a device forces operators to
   = use other protocols such as a command line interface (CLI) to do =
   configuration of some aspects of their managed = devices. 

I would change completely change the order in this section, = explaining first what SNMP is good at, i.e. monitoring, and then, = express that SNMP is not suitable (and not used that much) for = configuration.
Btw, you can then refer to section 2.4.1, in which you = give the output of the IAB.


Many
   operators = have found it easier to use one protocol for all
   = configurations rather than to split the task across multiple =
   protocols.

   SNMP is good at = determining the operational state of specific
   = functionality, but not necessarily for the complete operational state =



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   of a managed device.  =

Hence the = CLI ....


SNMP is also good for statistics gathering for =
   specific functionality.  The widespread use of = counters in standard
   MIB modules permits the = interoperable comparison of statistics across
   devices = from different vendors.  Counters have been especially useful =
   in monitoring bytes and packets going in and out over = various
   protocol interfaces.  SNMP is often used = to poll a device for
   sysUpTime, which serves to report = the time since the last
   reinitialization of the device, = to check for operational liveness,
   and to detect = discontinuities in some counters.

   SNMP traps and = informs can alert an operator or an application when
   = some aspect of a protocol fails or encounters an error condition, and =
   the contents of a notification can be used to guide = subsequent SNMP
   polling to gather additional = information about an event.

   SNMP is widely used for = monitoring fault and performance data.  Some
   = operators use SNMP for configuration in various environments, while =
   others find SNMP an inappropriate choice for = configuration in their
   environments.  During the = IAB Network Management Workshop the
   attendees expected = that the so-called evolutionary approaches would
   fail = and more focus should be put on new approaches, such as XML- =
   based configuration management. =

You see, = you come back to the same point in the paragraph = above.



   SNMPv1 [RFC1157] is a Full Standard that = the IETF has declared
   Historic and it is not = recommended due to its lack of security
   features.  = SNMPv2c [RFC1901] is an Experimental specification (not a =
   standard of any kind) that the IETF has declared = Historic and it is
   not recommended due to its lack of = security features.

   SNMPv3 [STD62] is a Full = Standard that is recommended due to its
   security = features, including support for authentication, encryption, =
   timeliness and integrity checking, and fine-grained = data access
   controls.  An overview of the SNMPv3 = document set is in [RFC3410].

   Standards exist to = use SNMP over multiple network protocols,
   including = TCP, UDP, Ethernet, OSI, and others.

2.3.  SNMP Security =

2.3.1.  Security Requirements on the SNMP Management = Framework

   Several of the classical threats to = network protocols are applicable
   to management problem = space and therefore applicable to any security
   model = used in an SNMP Management Framework.  This section lists =
   principal threats, secondary threats, and threats which = are of lesser
   importance as defined in [RFC3411]. =

   The principal threats against which SNMP Security = Models should =



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   provide protection are: =

If I would = be unfamiliar with SNMP, I would be thinking:
"The principal = threats against which SNMP Security Models should provide = protection are". I don't care what it should do, I can about it can = do for me.
Can we change the sentence to "The principal threats = against which SNMP Security Models can provide protection = are"



   Modification of Information: =
      Information might be altered by an = unauthorized entity, e.g. in-
      transit = SNMP messages can be generated to effect unauthorized =
      management operations, including = falsifying the value of an
      object. =

   Masquerade:
      The = masquerade threat is the danger that management operations not =
      authorized for some principal may be = attempted by assuming the
      identity of = another principal that has the appropriate =
      authorizations.

   = Secondary threats against which any Security Model used within this =
   architecture should provide protection are: =

Same = remark here.
See my next remark.



   Message Stream = Modification:
      The SNMP protocol is = typically based upon a connectionless
      = transport service which may operate over any subnetwork service. =
      The re-ordering, delay or replay of = messages can and does occur
      through = the natural operation of many such subnetwork services. =
      The message stream modification = threat is the danger that messages
      = may be maliciously re-ordered, delayed or replayed to an extent =
      which is greater than what can occur = through the natural operation
      of a = subnetwork service, in order to effect unauthorized =
      management operations. =

   Disclosure:
      The = disclosure threat is the danger of eavesdropping on the =
      exchanges between SNMP engines.  = Protecting against this threat
      may be = required as a matter of local policy.

   There are at = least two threats against which a Security Model within
   = this architecture need not protect, since they are deemed to be of =
   lesser importance in this context:

   = Denial of Service:
      A Security Model = need not attempt to address the broad range of =
      attacks by which service on behalf of = authorized users is denied.
      Indeed, = such denial-of-service attacks are in many cases =
      indistinguishable from the type of = network failures with which any
      = viable management protocol must cope as a matter of course. =

   Traffic Analysis: =
      A Security Model need not attempt to = address traffic analysis
      = attacks.  Many traffic patterns are predictable - entities may be =
      managed on a regular basis by a = relatively small number of =



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      management = stations - and therefore there is no significant =
      advantage afforded by protecting = against traffic analysis.

2.3.2.  User-Based Security Model = (USM)

   The User Security Model (USM) provides = authentication and privacy
   services for SNMP = (RFC3414).  Specifically, USM is designed to secure =
   against the following principal threats: =

   o  Modification of Information: Alteration of = an in-transit message
      generated by an = authorized entity in such a way as to effect =
      unauthorized management operations, = including the setting of
      object = values.

   o  Masquerade: Management operations = that are not authorized for some
      = entity may be attempted by that entity by assuming the identity of =
      an authorized entity. =

   o  Message Stream Modification: SNMP messages = (transported over a
      connectionless = protocol) could be reordered, delayed, or replayed =
      (duplicated) to affect unauthorized = management operations.

   o  Disclosure: An = entity could observe exchanges between a manager =
      and an agent and thereby learn the = values of managed objects, and
      learn = of notification events.

This is a complete repeat from section 2.3.1.
At the = end, I'm wondering why we have section 2.3.1
I would merge section = 2.3.1 and 2.3.2, and explain what SNMP can do for me.

For = example, even in the paragraph above, it's confusing. How do the 2 = sentences fit together?
"Specifically, USM is designed to = secure
   against the following principal threats: = "
"Message Stream Modification: SNMP messages (transported = over a
      connectionless protocol) = could be reordered, delayed, or replayed =
      (duplicated) to affect = unauthorized management operations. =




   USM does not secure against Denial of = Service and attacks based on
   Traffic Analysis. =

   The security services the SNMP Security Model = supports are:

   o  Data Integrity is the = provision of the property that data has not =
      been altered or destroyed in an = unauthorized manner, nor have data
      = sequences been altered to an extent greater than can occur non- =
      maliciously.

   = o  Data Origin Authentication is the provision of the property that =
      the claimed identity of the user on = whose behalf received data was
      = originated is supported.

   o  Data = Confidentiality is the provision of the property that =
      information is not made available or = disclosed to unauthorized
      = individuals, entities, or processes.

   o  = Message timeliness and limited replay protection is the provision =
      of the property that a message whose = generation time is outside of
      a = specified time window is not accepted. =




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   See [RFC3414] in [STD62] for a = detailed description of SNMPv3 USM.

2.3.3.  View-Based = Access Control Model (VACM)

I'm confused by the placement of = this section, as 2.3.1, 2.3.2, and 2.3.4 discuss security, while this = one doesn't
Can we restructure = this.



   The View-Based Access Control facility of = SNMP enables the
   configuration of agents to provide = different levels of access to the
   agent's MIB.  An = agent entity can restrict access to its MIB for a
   = particular manager entity in two ways:

   o  It = can restrict access to a certain portion of its MIB, e.g., an =
      agent may restrict most manager = principals to viewing performance-
      = related statistics and allow only a single designated manager =
      principal to view and update = configuration parameters.

   o  The agent can = limit the operations that a principal can use on =
      that portion of the MIB.  E.g., = a particular manager principal
      could = be limited to read-only access to a portion of an agent's =
      MIB.

   The access = control policy to be used by an agent must be pre-
   = configured for each manager.  The policy is based on a table that =
   details the access privileges of the various authorized = managers.

   VACM defines five elements that make up = the Access Control Model:
   groups, security level, = contexts, MIB views, and access policy.

   See = [RFC3415] in [STD62] for a detailed description of SNMPv3 VACM. =

Explain = that we can read, read-write and notification = views.



2.3.4.  SNMP Transport Subsystem and Transport = Security Model

   The User-based Security Model (USM) = was designed to be independent of
   other existing = security infrastructures to ensure it could function
   = when third-party authentication services were not available.  As a =
   result, USM utilizes a separate user and key-management =
   infrastructure.  Operators have reported that = having to deploy
   another user and key-management = infrastructure in order to use SNMPv3
   is costly and = hinders the deployment of SNMPv3.

   SNMP Transport = Subsystem [RFC5590] extends the existing SNMP
   framework = and transport model and enables the use of transport
   = protocols to provide message security unifying the administrative =
   security management for SNMP, and other management = interfaces.

   Transport Models are tied into the SNMP = framework through the
   Transport Subsystem.  The = Transport Security Model has been designed
   to work on = top of lower-layer, secure Transport Models.  The
   = Transport Security Model [RFC5591] and the Secure Shell Transport =
   Model [RFC5592] utilize the Transport Subsystem. =



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   The Transport Security Model is an = alternative to the existing SNMPv1
   Security Model = [RFC3584], the SNMPv2c Security Model [RFC3584], and
   = the User-based Security Model [RFC3414].  The Secure Shell = Transport
   Model defines furthermore an alternative to = existing standard
   transport mappings described in = [RFC3417] such as SNMP over OSI, SNMP
   over IPX and SNMP = over UDP.  SNMP over UDP has been so far the most
   = commonly used SNMP transport binding.  The Experimental RFC = [RFC3430]
   defines a transport mapping with TCP. =

   The new SNMP Transport Subsystem modifies the = Abstract Service
   Interfaces to pass transport-specific = security parameters to other
   subsystems.  This = includes transport-specific security parameters
   that = are translated into the transport-independent parameters such as =
   securityName and securityLevel.

   = The SNMP Transport Subsystem utilizes one or more lower-layer =
   security mechanisms to provide message-oriented = security services.
   These include authentication of the = sender, encryption, timeliness
   checking, and data = integrity checking.

   A secure Transport Model = establishes an authenticated and possibly
   encrypted = link between the Transport Models of two SNMP engines.
   = After a transport-layer tunnel is established, SNMP messages can be =
   sent through this tunnel from one SNMP engine to the = other.  The new
   Transport Model supports sending = multiple SNMP messages through the
   same tunnel to = amortize the costs of establishing a security
   = association.

   The Transport Model on top of a secure = transport protocol performs
   security functions within = the Transport Subsystem, including the
   translation of = transport-security parameters to/from Security-Model-
   = independent parameters.  To accommodate this, an implementation- =
   specific cache of transport-specific information is = introduced and
   the data flows on this path are extended = to pass Security-Model-
   independent values.  For = this purpose, the Transport Subsystem
   extends SNMPv3 = Abstract Service Interfaces (ASI).  New Security
   = Models can be defined using the modified ASIs and the transport- =
   information cache.

   [RFC5592] = introduces a Transport Model (Secure Shell Transport
   = Model), which makes use of the commonly deployed Secure Shell =
   security infrastructure establishing a channel between = itself and the
   SSH Transport Model of another SNMP = engine.

   Different IETF standards use security = layers at the transport or
   application layer to address = security threads (e.g.  TLS [RFC5246],
   Simple = Authentication and Security Layer (SASL) [RFC4422], and SSH =
   [RFC4251]).  Different management interfaces, = e.g.  CLI, SYSLOG =



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   [RFC5424] and NETCONF [RFC4741], = use a secure transport layer to
   provide secure = information and message exchange to build management
   = applications.

   Detailed description of the Transport = Subsystem for SNMP and
   Transport Security Model for = SNMP can be found in [RFC5590] and
   [RFC5591].  = Secure Shell Transport Model for SNMP is specified in
   = [RFC5592] and Transport Layer Security (TLS) Transport Model for SNMP =
   is described in [RFC5953].

2.3.5.  RADIUS = Authentication and Authorization with SNMP Transport =
        Models =

   [RFC5608] describes the use of a RADIUS (Remote = Authentication
   Dial-In User Service) authentication and = authorization service by
   SNMP secure Transport Models = for authentication of users and
   authorization of secure = transport session creation.

   The secure transport = protocols selected for use with RADIUS and SNMP
   need to = support user authentication methods that are compatible with =
   those that exist in RADIUS.  Transport Models rely = upon the
   underlying secure transport for user = authentication services.  The
   SSH protocol = provides a secure transport channel with support for
   = channel authentication via local accounts and integration with =
   various external authentication and authorization = services such as
   RADIUS, Kerberos, etc.  SSH = Server integration with RADIUS
   traditionally uses the = username and password mechanism.

   Service = authorization and access control authorization are the use =
   cases for RADIUS support of management access via = SNMP.  User
   authentication needs to be done prior = to each of these use cases.
   Service authorization = allows a RADIUS server to authorize an
   authenticated = principal to use SNMP, optionally over a secure
   = transport, typically using an SNMP Transport Model (see [RFC5608]). =

   Access control authorization, i.e. how RADIUS = attributes and messages
   are applied to the specific = application area of SNMP Access Control
   Models, and = VACM in particular is currently being specified in the
   = ISMS (Integrated Security Model for SNMP) WG [I-D.ietf-isms-radius- =
   vacm].

2.4.  Supplementary Components of = the IETF Management Framework

2.4.1.  NETCONF =

Add YANG = in the title



   SNMP works well for device monitoring and = with its stateless nature
   SNMP is also useful for = statistics and status polling but SNMP has
   limited = configuration management support. =



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   o  There is a semantic = mismatch between the task-oriented view =
      preferred by operators and the = data-centric view provided by SNMP,

   o  SNMP = does not separate clearly between configuration data and =
      operational state, =

   o  Implementing SNMP transactional model and = the protocol constraints
      is complex, = and

   o  SNMP modeling language has limited = support for structured data
      types and = relationships among managed objects.

The points above are very = interesting for a new reader, and should cut/pasted somewhere in the = SNMP section.
In this section, there are = hidden.



   The IAB workshop on Network Management = determined advanced
   requirements for configuration = management [IAB2002]:

   o  Robustness: = Minimizing disruptions and maximizing stability,

   = o  Support of task-oriented view,

   o  = Extensible for new operations,

   o  Standardized = error handling,

   o  Clear distinction between = configuration data and operational
      = state,

   o  Distribution of configurations to = devices under transactional
      = constraints,

   o  Single and multi-system = transactions and scalability in the number =
      of transactions and managed devices, =

   o  Operations on selected subsets of = management data,

   o  Dump and reload a device = configuration in a textual format in a =
      standard manner across multiple = vendors and device types,

   o  Support a human = interface and a programmatic interface,

   o  = Data modeling language with a human friendly syntax, =

   o  Easy conflict detection and configuration = validation, and

   o  Secure transport, = authentication, and robust access control.

   The = NETCONF protocol [RFC4741] is a Proposed Standard that provides =
   mechanisms to install, manipulate, and delete the = configuration of
   network devices and aims to address = the advanced configuration =



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   management requirements pointed in = the IAB workshop.  It uses an
   Extensible Markup = Language (XML)-based data encoding for the
   = configuration data as well as the protocol messages.  The NETCONF =
   protocol operations are realized on top of a simple and = reliable
   Remote Procedure Call (RPC) layer. =

   A key aspect of NETCONF is that it allows the = functionality of the
   management protocol to closely = mirror the native command line
   interface of the = device.  This reduces implementation costs and
   = allows timely access to new features.  In addition, applications = can
   access both the syntactic and semantic content of = the device's native
   user interface. =

   Additionally NETCONF WG developed the NETCONF Event = Notifications
   Mechanism as an optional capability, = which provides an asynchronous
   message notification = delivery service for NETCONF [RFC5277].  NETCONF
   = notification mechanism enables using general purpose notification =
   streams, which can not only transport NETCONF = notifications but also
   alarms from other sources, where = the originator of the NETCONF
   notification stream can = be any managed device (e.g.  SNMP alarms).

   = NETCONF Partial Locking introduces fine-grained locking of the =
   configuration datastore to enhance NETCONF for = fine-grained
   transactions on parts of the datastore = [RFC5717].

   NETCONF WG also defined the necessary = data model to monitor the
   NETCONF protocol by using = YANG.  The monitoring data model includes
   = information about NETCONF datastores, sessions, locks, and =
   statistics, which facilitate the management of a = NETCONF server.
   NETCONF monitoring document also = defines methods for NETCONF clients
   to discover data = models supported by a NETCONF server and defines a
   new = operation to retrieve them [RFC6022].

   ADD: Describe = how an SNMP agent and a NETCONF server may co-exist on
   = the same managed device using the same datastore for the management =
   data model.

   NETCONF defined SSH = transport binding as the mandatory secure
   transport of = its RPC messages [RFC4742].  Other optional secure
   = transport bindings are available for TLS [RFC5539], BEEP (over TLS) =
   [RFC4744], and SOAP (over HTTP over TLS) = [RFC4743].  There is an
   implementation available = using NETCONF over SOAP as a Web Service
   [RFC5381]. =

   Currently NETCONF workgroup is focusing on bug = fixing of the NETCONF
   base protocol standard [4741bis] = and the SSH transport protocol
   mapping [4742bis] as = well as the specification of the NETCONF Access
   Control = Model (NACM).  NACM is going to provide a secure operating =



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   environment for NETCONF and = proposes standard mechanisms to restrict
   protocol = access to particular users with a pre-configured subset of =
   operations and content.

   NETMOD WG = developed YANG as the normative modeling language for the =
   modeling of configuration data for usage with = NETCONF.  YANG follows

the


   following design goals = addressing specific requirements on a modeling
   language = for configuration management:

   o  Allow = modeling of standard and vendor defined modules for multi- =
      vendor interoperability, =

   o  Define semantics and data organization, = i.e. models operational
      and = configuration data, notifications, and operations,

   = o  "human-readable", easy to use and text-based, =

   o  Enable addition of new content to existing = data models and can be
      extended at = IETF as necessary,

   o  Map directly to XML = content (on the wire), and

   o  Basic types = compatible with SMIv2 and preserves therefore =
      investments in SNMP MIBs. =

   NETMOD WG furthermore developed Common YANG Data = Types to be used
   with YANG [RFC6021] and a guidelines = document for authors and
   reviewers of YANG Data Model = Documents [I-D
   draft-ietf-netmod-yang-usage] as well as = the mapping rules for
   translating YANG data models into = Document Schema Definition
   Languages (DSDL) = [I-D.ietf-netmod-dsdl-map].  The architecture
   = document "An Architecture for Network Management using NETCONF and =
   YANG" describes how NETCONF and YANG can help to = build network
   management applications that meet the = needs of network operators
   = [I-D.draft-ietf-netmod-arch].

   IPFIX WG prepared the = normative IPFIX/PSAMP configuration model for
   = configuring and monitoring IPFIX and PSAMP compliant Monitoring =
   Devices with the YANG modeling language and is = proposing to use
   NETCONF for the configuration of these = entities [I-D.ietf-ipfix-
   configuration-model]. =

   At the time of this writing, the rechartering = discussion of the
   NETMOD WG is ongoing.  NETMOD WG = aims to focus in its second phase on
   the development of = core system and core interface data models.  The
   = WG will not develop models for specific topic areas or workgroups at =
   IETF.  Such modeling work will be done in = corresponding WGs, e.g.
   DNSOP WG will develop the DNS = configuration model using YANG. =



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2.4.1.1.  YANG - NETCONF Modeling Language =

   Following the guideline and requests of the IAB = management workshop
   the NETMOD workgroup developed a = "human-friendly" modeling language
   defining = the semantics of operational data, configuration data,
   = notifications, and operations [RFC6020].  The new modeling language =
   focuses on readability and ease of use and will serve = as the
   normative description of NETCONF data models. =

   ADD: Input from YANG team?

this section should be more = visible. At least in the table of = content.



2.4.2.  SYSLOG

Missing one important = part.
Everybody uses
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3164.html these days.
Must explain that this RFC is informational = only



   The SYSLOG protocol [RFC5424] allows a = machine to send system log
   messages across networks to = event message collectors.  The protocol
   is simply = designed to transport these event messages.  No
   = acknowledgement of the receipt is made.  One of the fundamental =
   tenets of the SYSLOG protocol and process is its = simplicity.

... from a development point of = view.


  No
   stringent coordination is = required between the transmitters and the
   = receivers.  Indeed, the transmission of SYSLOG messages may be =
   started on a device without a receiver being = configured, or even
   actually physically present.  = Conversely, many devices will most
   likely be able to = receive messages without explicit configuration or
   = definitions.  This simplicity has greatly aided the acceptance and =
   deployment of SYSLOG.

   Since each = process, application and operating system was written
   = somewhat independently, there has been little uniformity to the =
   message format or content of SYSLOG messages. =

   The IETF has developed a new Proposed Standard = version of the
   protocol that allows the use of any = number of transport protocols
   including reliable = transports and secure transports [RFC5424].  The
   = IETF has also standardized the application of message security for =
   SYSLOG messages using TLS [RFC5425], and has defined a = mechanism to
   digitally sign log data to ensure its = integrity as log data is moved
   across the network = and/or copied to different data stores [RFC5848].

   =

Part of = RFC5424,...


The IETF has standardized a new message header format, = including
   timestamp, hostname, application, and message = ID, to improve
   filtering, interoperability and = correlation between compliant
   implementations. =

   SYSLOG message content has traditionally been = unstructured natural
   language text.  This content = is human-friendly, but difficult for
   applications to = parse and correlate across vendors, or correlate with
   = other event reporting such as SNMP traps. 

This paragraph should be moved at = the top of the section, after that you introduced RFC 3164.
Also you = must stress the issue of inconsistencies (level and message) across = vendors or even platform types within vendors.
Since this is a = printf, it's basically for a develop to create his own = message.



The IETF syslog protocol
   includes = structured data elements to aid application-parsing.  The =



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   structured data element design = allows vendors to define their own
   structured data = elements to supplement standardized elements.
   [RFC5675] = defines a mapping from SNMP notifications to SYSLOG
   = messages and [RFC5676] defines the corresponding managed objects for =
   this purpose.  And [RFC5674] defines the way = alarms are send in
   Syslog, which includes the mapping = of ITU perceived severities onto
   syslog message fields = and a number of alarm-specific definitions from
   ITU-T = X.733 and the IETF Alarm MIB.

   The IETF has = standardized MIB Textual-Conventions for facility and
   = severity labels and codes to encourage consistency between syslog and =
   MIB representations of these event properties.  = The intent is that
   these textual conventions will be = imported and used in MIB modules
   that would otherwise = define their own representations.  [RFC5427]

   = [RFC5848] "Signed Syslog Messages" defines a mechanism to add = origin
   authentication, message integrity, replay = resistance, message
   sequencing, and detection of = missing messages to the transmitted
   syslog messages to = be used in conjunction with the Syslog protocol.

   = The Syslog protocol layered architecture provides for support of any =
   number of transport mappings.  However, for = interoperability
   purposes, syslog protocol implementers = are required to support the
   transmission of Syslog = Messages over UDP as defined in [RFC5426].

   IETF = furthermore defined the TLS transport mapping for Syslog in =
   [RFC5425], which provides a secure connection for the = transport of
   syslog messages and describes the security = threats to syslog and how
   TLS can be used to counter = such threats.  Datagram Transport Layer
   Security = (DTLS) Transport Mapping for Syslog is defined in [RFC6012], =
   which can be used in cases where a connection-less = transport is
   desired.

   IETF working = groups are encouraged to standardize structured data
   = elements, extensible human-friendly text, and consistent facility/ =
   severity values for SYSLOG to report events specific to = their
   protocol.

2.4.3.  IPFIX/PSAMP =


   IPFIX [RFC5101] is = a Proposed Standard, which defines a push-based
   data = export mechanism for formatting and transferring IP flow =
   information from an exporter to a collector.  = PSAMP defines a
   standard set of capabilities for = network elements to sample subsets
   of packets by = statistical and other methods.

   The IPFIX working = group

sometimes you use WG, sometimes = not.


has specified the Information Model (to
   = describe IP flows) and the IPFIX protocol for the export of flow =



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   information from routers or = measurement probes to external systems
   [RFC5101], = [RFC5102].  IPFIX protocol exports flow data e.g. from =
   routers and probes (IPv4, IPv6) and works on top of = UDP, TCP or SCTP.

Well SCTP is a must, not the = others.


   Several applications using the IPFIX protocol = are available.

   IPFIX [RFC5101] is a Proposed = Standard approach for transmitting IP
   traffic flow = information over the network from an exporting process
   = to an information collecting process.  IPFIX defines a common =
   representation of flow data and a standard means of = communicating the
   data over a number of transport = protocols.

   [RFC3917] specifies the observation = point, flows, exporting and the
   collecting process as = well as a metering process that consists of a
   packet = header capturing, time stamping, classifying, sampling, and =
   maintaining flow records.

yes but RFC3917 is = informational.
RFC3917 specifies the = requirements.



   IPFIX Information = Model defines Information Elements (IEs) for
   = distinguishing flows and for reporting flow characteristics =
   [RFC5102].  Information Model for PSAMP extends = the IPFIX information
   model by IEs for packet header = and payload information [RFC5477] and
   defines packet = selection methods for filtering and sampling of such
   = data.  IPFIX and PSAMP packet sampling use the same packet = processing
   (aka. packet mediation).  PSAMP packet = information is exported with
   the IPFIX protocol based = on a shared information model.

   The IPFIX WG has = developed an XML-based configuration data model in
   = close collaboration with the NETMOD WG and uses YANG as modeling =
   language [I-D.ietf-ipfix-configuration-model].  = The model specifies
   the necessary data for configuring = and monitoring selection
   processes, caches, exporting = processes, and collecting processes of
   IPFIX and PSAMP = compliant monitoring devices.

   At the time of this = writing a framework for IPFIX flow mediation is
   in = preparation, which addresses the need for mediation of flow =
   information in IPFIX applications in large operator = networks, e.g.
   for aggregating huge amounts of flow = data and for anonymization of
   flow information.  = IPFIX Mediation Framework defines the intermediate
   = device between Exporters and Collectors, which provides an IPFIX =
   Mediation by receiving a record stream from e.g. a = Collecting
   Process, hosting one or more Intermediate = Processes to transform this
   stream, and exporting the = transformed record stream into IPFIX
   Messages via an = Exporting Process [I-D.ietf-ipfix-mediators-
   = framework].

   The work on IP Flow Anonymization = Support describes anonymization
   techniques for IP flow = data and the export of anonymized data
   = [I-D.ietf-ipfix-anon]. =




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   The document 'IPFIX Export per = SCTP Stream' [I-D.ietf-ipfix-export-
   per-sctp-stream] = specifies a reliability extension based on a method
   for = exporting a Template Record and its associated Data Sets in a =
   single SCTP stream, for limiting each Template ID to a = single SCTP
   stream and imposing in-order transmission. =

   [I-D.ietf-ipfix-structured-data] proposes an = extension to the IPFIX
   protocol to support the export = of hierarchically structured data and
   lists (sequences) = of Information Elements in data records.  The
   = document describes how to distribute structured data with an abstract =
   data type and a new Information Element, e.g. for the = distribution of
   security keys or performance = measures.  This application can also be
   used for = the distribution of logging information if standard SYSLOG =
   based logging is not available.

   = There are several applications such as usage-based accounting, =
   traffic profiling, traffic engineering, intrusion = detection, and QoS
   monitoring, that require flow-based = traffic measurements, which can
   be realized on top of = IPFIX.  IPFIX can also be used e.g. for the
   = monitoring of the protocols like SIP and the related media transfer, =
   which is indeed based on flows on application = layer.  The
   requirements to such a monitoring = application are e.g. measuring
   signaling quality (e.g., = session request delay, session completion
   ratio, or = hops for request), media QoS (e.g., jitter, delay or bit =
   rate), and user experience (e.g., Mean Opinion Score). =

   Several applications require sampling packets from = specific data
   flows, or across multiple data flows, and = reporting information about
   the packets.  = Measurement-based network management is a prime
   = example.  The PSAMP WG developed the protocol for reporting = observed
   packets by extending the IPFIX protocol.  = In order to reduce the
   amount of data to be processed = for selecting observed IP packets,
   packet selection = methods have been defined.

   PSAMP standardizes = sampling, selection, metering, and reporting
   strategies = for different purposes and includes support for packet
   = sampling in IPv4, IPv6, and MPLS-based networks.  To simplify the =
   solution, the IPFIX protocol is used for the export of = the PSAMP
   reports to collector applications. =

   NOTE: Input from IPFIX WG?

yes, I would like to improve this. = Missing biflow, file, IPFIX-structured data, = etc...



3.  Management Protocols and Mechanisms with = specific Focus

   This section reviews additional = protocols IETF offers for management
   and discusses for = which applications they were designed and/or
   already = successfully deployed.  These are protocols that have mostly =
   reached or short before Proposed Standard status or = higher within the =



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   IETF.

3.1.  IP = Address Management with DHCP

   BOOTP (Bootstrap = Protocol), originally defined in [RFC951], has been
   = used by network clients during the bootstrap process to obtain an IP =
   address from a configuration server.  BOOTP = requires manual
   intervention to add configuration = information for each client, and
   does not provide a = mechanism for reclaiming disused IP addresses.

   The = Draft Standard Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP) =
   [RFC2131] was defined as an extension to BOOTP.  = DHCP provides a
   framework for passing configuration = information to hosts on a TCP/IP
   network and does as = such enable autoconfiguration in IP networks.  In
   = addition to IP address management, DHCP can also provide other =
   configuration information, particularly the IP = addresses of local
   caching DNS resolvers or servers = providing servers.  As described in
   = [I-D.baker-ietf-core] DHCP can be used for IPv4 and IPv6 Address =
   Allocation and Assignment as well as Service Discovery. =

   There are two versions of DHCP, one for IPv4 = [RFC2131] and one for
   IPv6 [RFC3315].  While both = versions bear the same name and perform
   much the same = purpose, the details of the protocol for IPv4 and IPv6
   = are sufficiently different that they can be considered separate =
   protocols.

   Following are examples, = where DHCP options have been used to provide
   = configuration information or access to specific servers. =

   o  [RFC3646] describes two DHCPv6 options for = passing a list of
      available DNS = recursive name servers and a domain search list to a =
      client.

   o  = [RFC2610] describes how entities using the Service Location =
      Protocol can find out the address of = Directory Agents in order to
      transact = messages and how the assignment of scope for =
      configuration of SLP User and Service = Agents can be achieved.

   o  [RFC3319] specifies = two DHCPv6 options that allow SIP clients to =
      locate a local SIP server that is to = be used for all outbound SIP
      = requests, a so-called outbound proxy server.

   = o  [RFC4280] defines new options to discover the Broadcast and =
      Multicast Service (BCMCS) controller = in an IP network. =







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3.2.  IPv6 Network Operations =

   The IPv6 Operations Working Group (v6ops) develops = guidelines for the
   operation of a shared IPv4/IPv6 = Internet and provides operational
   guidance on how to = deploy IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, as
   well = as into new network installations.

   NOTE: Input = planned from V6ops Workgroup.

3.3.  SNMP Agent = Extensibility (AgentX) Protocol

   The Draft Standard = [RFC2741] "Agent Extensibility (AgentX) Protocol" =
   defines a framework for extensible SNMP agents = including master
   agents and subagents, the AgentX = protocol used to communicate between
   them, and how the = extensible agent processes SNMP protocol messages.

   = Within the SNMP framework, a managed node contains a processing =
   entity called agent, which has access to management = information.
   Within the AgentX framework, an agent is = further defined to consist
   of:

   = o  a single processing entity called the master agent, which sends =
      and receives SNMP protocol messages = in an agent role (as specified
      by the = SNMP framework documents) but typically has little or no =
      direct access to management = information, and

   o  zero or more processing = entities called subagents, which are
      = "shielded" from the SNMP protocol messages processed by the = master
      agent, but which have access = to management information.

   The internal operations = of AgentX are invisible to an SNMP entity
   operating in = a manager role.  From a manager's point of view, an =
   extensible agent behaves exactly as would a = non-extensible
   (monolithic) agent that has access to = the same management
   instrumentation. =

   [RFC2741] specifies furthermore a TCP binding for = the AgentX
   protocol.

   The Draft = Standard [RFC2742] "Definitions of Managed Objects for =
   Extensible SNMP Agents" describes objects managing = SNMP agents that
   use the AgentX Protocol and specifies = a MIB module, which is
   compliant to the SMIv2, and = semantically identical to the peer SMIv1
   definitions. =







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3.4.  Radius

   Radius = [RFC2865],

RADIUS


the remote Authentication Dial In = User Service, is
   a Draft Standard that describes a = client/server protocol for carrying
   authentication, = authorization, and configuration information between
   a = Network Access Server (NAS), which desires to authenticate its =
   links and a shared Authentication Server. =

   This protocol is widely implemented and is used in = environments like
   enterprise networks, where a single = administrative authority manages
   the network, and = protects the privacy of user information.

   RADIUS is = extensible with Vendor-Specific Attributes (VSAs), which =
   are mostly vendor-specific.

   The = RADIUS protocol uses a shared secret along with the MD5 hashing =
   algorithm to secure passwords.  Based on the known = threads additional
   protection like IPsec tunnels are = used to further protect the RADIUS
   traffic. =

   Radius has been prepared to use over UDP port 1812 = for RADIUS
   Authentication and 1813 for RADIUS = Accounting assigned by IANA.

   [RFC3162] 'RADIUS and = IPv6' specifies the operation of RADIUS over
   IPv6 and = the RADIUS attributes used to support the IPv6 network
   = access.

   [RFC4675] 'RADIUS Attributes for Virtual = LAN and Priority Support'
   defines additional attributes = for dynamic Virtual LAN assignment and
   prioritization, = for use in provisioning of access to IEEE 802 local
   = area networks usable with Radius and Diameter.

   = [RFC5080] 'Common RADIUS Implementation Issues and Suggested Fixes' =
   describes common issues seen in RADIUS implementations = and suggests
   some fixes.  Where applicable, = unclear statements and errors in
   previous RADIUS = specifications are clarified.

   [RFC5090] 'RADIUS = Extension for Digest Authentication' defines an
   = extension to the RADIUS protocol to enable support of Digest =
   Authentication, for use with HTTP-style protocols like = the Session
   Initiation Protocol (SIP) and HTTP. =

   [RFC5580] 'Carrying Location Objects in RADIUS and = Diameter describes
   procedures for conveying = access-network ownership and location
   information based = on civic and geospatial location formats in RADIUS
   and = Diameter.

   NOTE: Need more discussion of Radius RFCs = and use cases. =



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3.5.  Diameter

When a name is not an acronym, one = sentence of explanation would help.
Idem for syslog btw.
Same = thing for CAPWAP. I read the next section, but I've got no clue what = it's supposed to stand for.



   Diameter [RFC3588] = is a Proposed Standard that provides an
   Authentication, = Authorization and Accounting (AAA) framework for
   = applications such as network access or IP mobility.  Diameter is = also
   intended to work in local Authentication, = Authorization, Accounting
   situations and in roaming = situations.  Diameter is not directly
   backwards = compatible, but provides an upgrade path for RADIUS. =

   Diameter is designed to resolve a number of known = problems with
   RADIUS.  Diameter supports server = failover, reliable transport over
   TCP and SCTP, agents = for proxy and redirect and relay, server-
   initiated = messages, auditability, and capability negotiation.
   = Diameter also provides a larger attribute space for attribute-value =
   pairs (AVPs) and identifiers than Radius.  = Diameter features make it
   especially appropriate for = environments where the providers of
   services are in = different administrative domains than the maintainer
   = (protector) of confidential user information.

   Other = important differences to Radius are:
   - Use of reliable = transport protocols (TCP or SCTP, not UDP),
   - Network = and transport layer security (IPsec or TLS),
   - Stateful = and stateless models,
   - Dynamic discovery of peers = (using DNS SRV and NAPTR),
   - Supports application layer = acknowledgements, defines failover
   methods and state = machines [RFC3539],
   - Error notification, =
   - Better roaming support,
   - Easier to = extend, and
   - Basic support for user-sessions and = accounting.

   The Diameter protocol has been enhanced = for the use with 3GPP IP
   Multimedia Subsystem = (IMS).  Different IMS interfaces (e.g.  Cx) are =
   supported by Diameter applications [3GPPIMS]. =

   The protocol is designed to be extensible to = support e.g. proxies,
   brokers, mobility and roaming, = Network Access Servers (NASREQ), and
   Accounting and = Resource Management.  Diameter applications extend the =
   Diameter base protocol by adding new commands and/or = attributes.
   Each application is defined by an = application identifier and can add
   new command codes = and/or new mandatory Attribute-Value Pairs (AVPs).

   = Following are examples of Diameter applications:
   - = Diameter Mobile IPv4 Application [RFC4004],
   - Diameter = Network Access Server Application (NASREQ, [RFC4005]),
   = - Diameter Extensible Authentication Protocol Application [RFC4072], =
   - Diameter Credit-Control Application [RFC4006], =
   - Diameter Session Initiation Protocol Application = [RFC4740], and =



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   - Diameter Quality-of-Service = Application [RFC5866].

   [RFC5516] 'Diameter Command = Code Registration for the Third
   Generation Partnership = Project (3GPP) Evolved Packet System (EPS)'
   registers a = set of IANA Diameter Command Codes to use in new vendor- =
   specific Diameter applications defined for the 3GPP) = Evolved Packet
   System (EPS).

   = [RFC5447] 'Diameter Mobile IPv6: Support for Network Access Server to =
   Diameter Server Interaction' describes the = bootstrapping of the
   Mobile IPv6 framework and the = support of interworking with existing
   Authentication, = Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructures
   by = using the Diameter Network Access Server to home AAA server =
   interface.

   [RFC5777] 'Traffic = Classification and Quality of Service (QoS)
   Attributes = for Diameter' defines a number of Diameter AVPs for
   = traffic classification with actions for filtering and Quality of =
   Service (QoS) treatment.

   [RFC5729] = 'Clarifications on the Routing of Diameter Requests Based =
   on the Username and the Realm' defines the behavior = required of
   Diameter agents to route requests when the = User-Name AVP contains a
   Network Access Identifier = formatted with multiple realms.  These
   multi-realm = Network Access Identifiers are used in order to force the =
   routing of request messages through a predefined list = of mediating
   realms.

   The IANA has = assigned TCP and SCTP port number 3868 to Diameter.

   = NOTE: Need more discussion of Diameter RFCs and use cases. =

3.6.  CAPWAP

   Wireless LAN product = architectures have evolved from single
   autonomous = access points to systems consisting of a centralized
   = Access Controller (AC) and Wireless Termination Points (WTPs).  The =
   general goal of centralized control architectures is to = move access
   control, including user authentication and = authorization, mobility
   management, and radio = management from the single access point to a
   = centralized controller.

   Based on the CAPWAP = Architecture Taxonomy work [RFC4118] CAPWAP
   workgroup = developed the CAPWAP protocol to facilitate control,
   = management and provisioning of WLAN Termination Points (WTPs) =
   specifying the services, functions and resources = relating to 802.11
   WLAN Termination Points in order to = allow for interoperable
   implementations of WTPs and = ACs.  The protocol defines the CAPWAP =



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   control plane including the = primitives to control data access.  The
   protocol = document also defines how configuration management of WTPs =
   can be done and defines CAPWAP operations responsible = for debugging,
   gathering statistics, logging, and = firmware management as well as
   discusses operational = and transport considerations.

   CAPWAP protocol is = defined to be independent of Layer 2 technologies,
   and = meets the objectives in "Objectives for Control and Provisioning =
   of Wireless Access Points (CAPWAP)" = [RFC4564].  Separate binding
   extensions enable the = use with additional wireless technologies.
   [RFC5416] = defines CAPWAP Protocol Binding for IEEE 802.11.

   = CAPWAP Base MIB [RFC5833] describes managed objects for modeling the =
   CAPWAP Protocol and provides configuration and WTP = status-monitoring
   aspects of CAPWAP, where CAPWAP = Binding MIB [RFC5834] describes
   managed objects for = modeling of CAPWAP protocol for IEEE 802.11
   wireless = binding.
   (RFC 5833 and RFC 5834 have been published as = Informational RFCs to
   provide the basis for future work = on a SNMP management of the CAPWAP
   protocol.) =

3.7.  Access Node Control Protocol

   The = Access Node Control Protocol (ANCP) [I-D.ietf-ancp-protocol] =
   realizes a control plane between a service-oriented = layer 3 edge
   device (the Network Access Server, NAS) = and a layer 2 Access Node
   (e.g., Digital Subscriber = Line Access Module, DSLAM).  As such ANCP
   operates = in a multi-service reference architecture and communicates =
   QoS-, service- and subscriber-related configurations = and operations
   between a NAS and an Access Node. =

   The main goal of this protocol is to configure and = manage access
   equipments and allow them to report = information to the NAS in order
   to enable and optimize = configuration.

   Framework and Requirements for an = Access Node Control Mechanism and
   the use cases for = ANCP are documented in [RFC5851].  Security Threats =
   and Security Requirements for ANCP are discussed in = [RFC5713].

3.8.  Ad-Hoc Network Autoconfiguration =

   Ad-hoc nodes need to configure their network = interfaces with locally
   unique addresses as well as = globally routable IPv6 addresses, in
   order to = communicate with devices on the Internet.  AUTOCONF WG =
   developed [RFC5889], which describes the addressing = model for ad-hoc
   networks and how nodes in these = networks configure their addresses.

   The ad-hoc = nodes under consideration are expected to be able to =



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   support multi-hop communication by = running MANET routing protocols as
   developed by the = IETF MANET WG.

   From the IP layer perspective, an ad = hoc network presents itself as a
   layer 3 multi-hop = network formed over a collection of links.  The
   = addressing model aims to avoid problems for ad-hoc-unaware parts of =
   the system, such as standard applications running on an = ad-hoc node
   or regular Internet nodes attached to the = ad-hoc nodes.

3.9.  Policy-based Management =

3.9.1.

This is where I arrived.
My flight was long, but it was = not long enough ;-)

Regards, = Benoit.

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.BB6CFB56-- From mehmet.ersue@nsn.com Fri Dec 3 16:04:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C1728C159 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:04:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.366 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.366 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.232, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CoQisqkbS38S for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A4C28C16B for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id oB405EcO010238 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:05:14 +0100 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id oB405Ewo026811; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:05:14 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.18]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:05:14 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.ECD8F70B" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:05:12 +0100 Message-ID: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6401529E07@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <4CF59C0E.90308@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 2 Thread-Index: AcuQ8vCI54lbg8pmS8Sj/m3Mj/g77QCTR43w References: <4CF5951E.6020004@cisco.com> <4CF59C0E.90308@cisco.com> From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Benoit Claise" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2010 00:05:14.0401 (UTC) FILETIME=[ED098910:01CB9346] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 2 X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 00:04:14 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.ECD8F70B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Benoit, =20 thank you for your review and comments. See inline. =20 Mehmet From: ext Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 1:51 AM To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich); opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 2 =20 Hi Mehmet, Here is the review of the remaining part. . . .=20 =20 3.9.2. COPS-PR [RFC3159] defines the Structure of Policy Provisioning Information (SPPI), an extension to the SMI modeling language used to write Policy Information Base (PIB) modules. COPS-PR [RFC3084 ] uses the Common Open Policy Service (COPS) protocol for support of policy provisioning. COPS-PR and the Structure of Policy Provisioning Information (SPPI) have been approved as Proposed Standards. I would cut/paste this sentence below. Expressed like this, it means that this is an important standard, but the end of the section is quite different. [Mehmet]: I assume you mean the last sentence above. =20 . . . =20 These metrics are designed for network operator use and provide unbiased quantitative measures of performance. This sentence, copied from the charter, should be in here. The metrics developed by the WG were developed inside an active measurement context, that is, the devices used to measure the metrics produce their own traffic. However, most metrics can be used inside a passive context as well. No work is planned is this area though, this may be changed with AD approval. =20 [Mehmet]: I agree. I would though skip " this may be changed with AD approval." The main properties of individual IPPM performance and reliability metrics are that the metrics should be well-defined and concrete thus implementable, and they should exhibit no bias for IP clouds implemented with identical technology. In addition, the methodology used to implement a metric should have the property of being repeatable with consistent measurements. =20 IETF IP Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in the industry and adopted by different SDOs such as ITU-T. Actually, any others than ITU-T? [Mehmet]: Al wrote MEF was active in this area too. =20 =20 RTFM is e.g. used for the measurement of DNS performance. I consider RTFM as an experiment done before IPFIX. btw, http://tools.ietf.org/html//rfc2724 is experimental. Again, it depends on the target audience. If we want to keep a history of what has been done in OPS, that's interesting. Otherwise, I would remove RTFM [Mehmet]: I think I can agree. RTFM is probably not important anymore. =20 . . . =20 Management data models have a slightly different interpretation for interoperability. This is discussed in detail in [BCP27] "Advancement of MIB specifications on the IETF Standards Track" [RFC2438 ] with special considerations about the advancement process for management data models. However most IETF management data models never advance beyond Proposed Standard. Note that MIB is just one data model. What about IPFIX? [Mehmet]: What would be your proposal? Should we put it into chapter 4.2? =20 =20 4.4. Performance Management Should we mention the IPPM perf metrics in here? [Mehmet]: RFC4150 and BCP0108(RFC4148) are mentioned below. Which RFC do you mean?=20 =20 . . . =20 The RMON matrix group stores statistics for conversations between sets of two addresses. The filter group allows packets to be matched by a filter equation. These matched packets form a data stream that may be captured or may generate events. The Packet Capture group allows packets to be captured after they flow through a channel. The event group controls the generation and notification of events from this device. Don't want to start a lengthy debate here, but my personal view is that RMON host, matrix are superseded by IPFIX: more granular, more flexible At the minimum, we should mention IPFIX somewhere here. This comes back to my point before that MIBs are not the only data model at the IETF. Indeed, this is worth a discussion. At the end, I think we may not skip RMON, which is still important for some folks. I would like to suggest to describe this use case in IPFIX chapter in detail. Would like to provide text for it? =20 . . .=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.ECD8F70B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Hi Benoit,

=  

= thank you for your review and comments. See = inline.

=  

= Mehmet

=

From: ext Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
Sent: = Wednesday, December 01, 2010 1:51 AM
To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - = DE/Munich); opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: Review of = draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part = 2

 

Hi = Mehmet,

Here is the review of the remaining = part.

. . . 
 

3.9.2.  = COPS-PR

   =
[RFC3159] defines the Structure of Policy Provisioning =
Information
   =
(SPPI), an extension to the SMI modeling language used to =
write
   Policy Information Base (PIB) =
modules.  COPS-PR [RFC3084] uses the
   =
Common Open Policy Service (COPS) protocol for support of =
policy
   provisioning.  COPS-PR and =
the Structure of Policy Provisioning
   =
Information (SPPI) have been approved as Proposed =
Standards.

I would cut/paste this = sentence below.
Expressed like this, it means that this is an = important standard, but the end of the section is quite = different.
[Mehmet]: I assume = you mean the last sentence above.

 

. . = .

 
   =
These metrics are designed for network operator use and =
provide
   unbiased quantitative measures =
of performance.

This sentence, = copied from the charter, should be in here.

The = metrics developed by the WG were developed inside an = active
measurement context, that is, the devices used to measure the = metrics
produce their own traffic.
However, most metrics can = be used inside a
passive context as well. No work is planned is this = area though,
this may be changed with AD approval.

=  

[Mehmet]: I agree. I would though skip = „ this may be changed with AD = approval.“

   The main properties of individual IPPM =
performance and reliability
   metrics =
are that the metrics should be well-defined and concrete =
thus
   implementable, and they should =
exhibit no bias for IP clouds
   =
implemented with identical technology.  In addition, the =
methodology
   used to implement a metric =
should have the property of being
   =
repeatable with consistent =
measurements.
 
 &nbs=
p; IETF IP Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in =
the
   industry and adopted by different =
SDOs such as ITU-T.

Actually, any others than ITU-T?
[Mehmet]: Al wrote MEF was active in this area = too.

 
 
   RTFM is e.g. used for the measurement = of DNS performance.

I = consider RTFM as an experiment done before IPFIX.
btw, http://tools.ietf.org/html//r= fc2724 is experimental.
Again, it depends on the target audience. = If we want to keep a history of what has been done in OPS, that's = interesting. Otherwise, I would remove = RTFM
[Mehmet]: I think = I can agree. RTFM is probably not important anymore.

 
. . .
 =
   Management data models =
have a slightly different interpretation =
for
   =
interoperability.  This is discussed in detail in =
[BCP27]
   "Advancement of =
MIB specifications on the IETF Standards =
Track"
   [RFC2438] =
with special considerations about the advancement =
process
   for management data =
models.  However most IETF management data =
models
   never advance beyond Proposed =
Standard.

Note that MIB is just one = data model.
What about IPFIX?
[Mehmet]: What would be your proposal? Should we = put it into chapter 4.2?

 
 
4.4.  Performance = Management

Should we mention the = IPPM perf metrics in here?

[Mehmet]: RFC4150 and BCP0108(RFC4148) = are mentioned below. Which RFC do you mean? =

 
. . .
 =
   The RMON matrix group =
stores statistics for conversations =
between
   sets =
of two addresses.  The filter group allows packets to be =
matched
   by a filter equation.  =
These matched packets form a data stream =
that
   may be captured or may generate =
events.  The Packet Capture group
   =
allows packets to be captured after they flow through a channel.  =
The
   event group controls the =
generation and notification of events =
from
   this device.

Don't want to start a lengthy debate here, but my = personal view is that RMON host, matrix are superseded by IPFIX: more = granular, more flexible
At the minimum, we should mention IPFIX = somewhere here. This comes back to my point before that MIBs are not the = only data model at the IETF.

= Indeed, this is worth a discussion. At the end, I think we may not skip = RMON, which is still important for some folks.

= I would like to suggest to describe this use case in IPFIX chapter in = detail. Would like to provide text for it?

=  

. . .

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9346.ECD8F70B-- From mehmet.ersue@nsn.com Fri Dec 3 16:05:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DA83A69D8 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:05:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.374 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.374 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D9wMX6PoXZnT for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F4C3A659C for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id oB406NcX011042 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:06:24 +0100 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id oB406ND4024219; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:06:23 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.18]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:06:23 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 01:06:22 +0100 Message-ID: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6401529E09@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <20101201070357.GB47679@elstar.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 1 Thread-Index: AcuRJfOsY0g7CqdKR++8MkZ6jkoPEQCIBrUg References: <4CE2907A.6020204@cisco.com> <4CE29DDC.7090207@cisco.com> <20101116152403.GA83091@elstar.local> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A640148487E@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <4CF59270.40006@cisco.com> <20101201070357.GB47679@elstar.local> From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" , "Benoit Claise" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2010 00:06:23.0416 (UTC) FILETIME=[162C6380:01CB9347] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 1 X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 00:05:12 -0000 > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 04:10:24PM -0800, Benoit Claise wrote: > > Hi Mehmet, > > > > In the draft, you wrote: > > > > The target audience is > > those people seeking guidance on how to construct an appropriate > > Internet Protocol Suite profile for the Smart Grid. > > > > Actually, I would like to have more focus on the target audience. At > least a separate paragraph, or optionally a new sub section. > > I could see the different audience > > - new comers (or not) to the IETF who want to have a quick > overview > > - network administrator > > - IETF, but non OPS area WGs, who wants to know how to manage > their "stuff" > > - non IETF SDOs. Smart Grid is just one example of this. > > - implementation technique >=20 > Finalizing this document will take quite some effort and I doubt we > have the resources to write such a document for every consortium of > the day. While the Smart Grid might have triggered this document, I > agree we should aim at a much broader audience.=20 The document indeed has been triggered by Smart Grid guys. In the current=20 version I formulated the need already independent of Smart Grid. > I do not think that > implementors are the main target of this effort. How about this: >=20 > - everybody interested in getting an overview of the current set of > IETF management protocols >=20 > - IETF working groups who need to select management technology in > order to manage their protocols >=20 > - non-IETF standard-developing organizations interested in using IETF > management protocols Sounds good to me. =20 > I do not think we need to spell out network administrators > explicitly. BTW, for those running real-world networks, a discussion > of the security aspects of the various protocols and how to integrate > key management etc. across protocols is likely a serious question that > perhaps this document should address. >=20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From acmorton@att.com Sat Dec 4 06:34:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED3128C0E8 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 06:34:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.522, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ZTP3KnHIwum for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 06:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail146.messagelabs.com (mail146.messagelabs.com [216.82.241.147]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFDB28C0DD for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 06:34:12 -0800 (PST) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: acmorton@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-5.tower-146.messagelabs.com!1291473330!37289784!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.9; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.145] Received: (qmail 10144 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2010 14:35:30 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp6.sbc.com (HELO mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.145) by server-5.tower-146.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 4 Dec 2010 14:35:30 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB4EZnaV003524 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 09:35:49 -0500 Received: from alpd052.aldc.att.com (alpd052.aldc.att.com [130.8.42.31]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB4EZjv5003459 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 09:35:45 -0500 Received: from aldc.att.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB4EZPCk006434 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 09:35:25 -0500 Received: from dns.maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB4EZNoC006398 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 09:35:24 -0500 Message-Id: <201012041435.oB4EZNoC006398@alpd052.aldc.att.com> Received: from acmt.att.com (vpn-135-70-23-113.vpn.west.att.com[135.70.23.113](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with SMTP id <20101204143521gw1004lkj4e>; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 14:35:23 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.23.113] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 09:35:46 -0500 To: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" , "Benoit Claise" From: Al Morton In-Reply-To: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6401529E06@DEMUEXC006.nsn-in tra.net> References: <4CF59808.3050305@cisco.com> <201012010212.oB12C02U004028@alpd052.aldc.att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6401529E06@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 14:34:15 -0000 I wouldn't say anything is exactly equal, but delay variation
is very close.

MEF 10.2 includes a reference to RFC 3393 (and RFC 2119 for terminology).
For the most part, Frame Delay, Frame Delay Range (FDR), and
Inter-Frame Delay Variation (IFDV) are equivalent to IPPM's metrics
(where FDR => PDV in RFC 5481, and IFDV => IPDV in RFC 5481
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5481 ).

One key difference is the lack of a waiting time threshold in the
MEF definitions - the explicit threshold we use to distinguish between
a lost packet and a packet with very long delay in IPPM.

Another key difference is that MEF 10.2 definitions are written to
evaluate the service traffic, while IPPM uses dedicated test streams.

hope this helps,
Al

At 07:04 PM 12/3/2010, Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Hi Al,
 
thank you for the valuable comments and text proposals.
 
I didn’t know that MEF adopted IPPM. Which RFCs or IPPM mechanisms
did they exactly adopt?
 
Cheers,
Mehmet
 
From: ext Al Morton [ mailto:acmorton@att.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 3:11 AM
To: Benoit Claise
Cc: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich); opsawg@ietf.org; Henk Uijterwaal; Matthew J Zekauskas
Subject: Re: draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question
 
Hi Benoit,

I think it would be reasonable to say
" ... and reliability of Internet packet transfer services."
As we know, data delivery is not assured in IP.

I saw some other places where I could make some wording suggestions,
if I may:

in section 3.10.1:



   These metrics


are designed for network operator use and provide


   unbiased quantitative measures of
performance.


suggest:
... for use by network operators and their customers, and provide ...

in section 3.10.1 again:



   IETF IP


Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in
the


   industry and adopted by different SDOs such as
ITU-T.

The ITU-T is not a good example here, they developed their own
metrics based one previous experience with X.25, Frame Relay, and ATM
networks, using their own performance model. There continue to be some differences in the IPPM and ITU-T metrics for IP performance. 
suggest:
... and adopted by different SDOs such as the Metro Ethernet Forum.

and



   Following are


examples of essential IPPM documents published as


   Proposed Standard:

A widely deployed IPPM RFC was omitted; there's a hell of a lot of
Performance Measurement with Periodic Streams out there, RFC 3432.

in section 4.4:



   IPPM working


group has furthermore defined



[



BCP108] "IP Performance


   Metrics (IPPM) Metrics Registry", which defines
a


registry for IP


   Performance Metrics


[RFC4148]. 
The


IANA-assigned registry contains


   an initial set of OBJECT IDENTITIES to currently
defined


metrics in


   the IETF as well as defines the rules for adding
IP


Performance


   Metrics that are defined in the future.

There is agreement that this registry is not used, and
there will hopefully be agreement in the near future to
withdraw the current registry and start from scratch with another
registry scheme, or use another solution to the problem such as the
information model you mentioned during the meeting in Beijing.
In any case, I think it would be best if RFC 4148 was omitted
in this memo.

hope this helps,
Al

At 07:34 PM 11/30/2010, Benoit Claise wrote:

Hi Henk, Matt, Al,

In http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02#section-3.10.1 , I see

   The IPPM working group has defined metrics
for


accurately measuring


   and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability
of


Internet


   data delivery services.  The metrics
include


connectivity, one-way


   delay and loss, round-trip delay and loss, delay
variation,


loss


   patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity,
and


link


   bandwidth capacity.


 


I'm wondering if service is the right word.


As you probably know, there are many discussions
around:


        what's a


service?


        what's an


application?


        what's a


protocol?


 


I would prefer to use "service classes" instead
of


"services". However, I defer to you guys. 


Note: the IPPM charter speaks of "service
classes"


 


Regards, Benoit.
From Robert.Story@cobham.com Sun Dec 5 05:43:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09D828C10F for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 05:43:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBTXzNFn+-8N for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 05:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3A028C110 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 05:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB5DiU3b028643; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 07:44:30 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB5DiUrv013849; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 07:44:30 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([216.27.162.138]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 5 Dec 2010 08:44:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 08:44:20 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/4gpIqc0+c2aE.LON8QQ26DI"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2010 13:44:30.0033 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A7D7C10:01CB9482] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 13:43:12 -0000 --Sig_/4gpIqc0+c2aE.LON8QQ26DI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - As long as we're defining floating point TCs, should we also include a TC for a standard representation for textual floating point numbers? e.g. http://www.mingrentb.com/remote/pixmet_mibs/PIXMET-GLOBAL-TC.mib - I'm guessing that the binary representation isn't defined such that a byte-wise comparison results in correct ordering, so should we say something about using these TCs as indexes so that nobody is surprised by ordering? --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/4gpIqc0+c2aE.LON8QQ26DI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz7lzwACgkQ7/fVLLY1mnhp6wCeI5hL+hS3KTQUsl7cmc2bNnFh 7noAoJ6OmaaVxOCd/QpOhYIAchIpqfSE =5gPJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/4gpIqc0+c2aE.LON8QQ26DI-- From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Sun Dec 5 05:53:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73F23A6AE7 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 05:53:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.128, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id moodksAjatQ4 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 05:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919713A6AC6 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 05:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.49]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBBFC001F; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:48 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6MRHAK+gBBd4; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B991DC0004; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:40 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 69A3215DEA08; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:39 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Robert Story Message-ID: <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Story , Randy Presuhn , opsawg@ietf.org References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 13:53:28 -0000 On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 08:44:20AM -0500, Robert Story wrote: > - As long as we're defining floating point TCs, should we also include > a TC for a standard representation for textual floating point numbers? > > e.g. http://www.mingrentb.com/remote/pixmet_mibs/PIXMET-GLOBAL-TC.mib Which problem does this solve? > - I'm guessing that the binary representation isn't defined such that a > byte-wise comparison results in correct ordering, so should we say > something about using these TCs as indexes so that nobody is > surprised by ordering? Yes, I agree. Adding a warning about using these TCs as indexes seems appropriate. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Sun Dec 5 15:35:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588FF3A69B4 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:35:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.433 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.433 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L+zI0bnmEYy9 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05723A6778 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:35:22 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=JBkqK6/ZpWcYW+FUxQ9bKaxCiSX+l29XdfXCE3i+g+MYnc6XiMlEYCwBkvkq0Tmd; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.30.227.89] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PPO8L-0006uJ-2G for opsawg@ietf.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 18:36:45 -0500 Message-ID: <002501cb94d5$60670420$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:37:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfbdc900a85253ca9b9fc3e8e8aaa816ac0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.30.227.89 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 23:35:25 -0000 Hi - > From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > To: "Robert Story" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:54 AM > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > > On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 08:44:20AM -0500, Robert Story wrote: > > - As long as we're defining floating point TCs, should we also include > > a TC for a standard representation for textual floating point numbers? > > > > e.g. http://www.mingrentb.com/remote/pixmet_mibs/PIXMET-GLOBAL-TC.mib > > Which problem does this solve? My personal preference would be to keep this document very narrow. > > - I'm guessing that the binary representation isn't defined such that a > > byte-wise comparison results in correct ordering, so should we say > > something about using these TCs as indexes so that nobody is > > surprised by ordering? > > Yes, I agree. Adding a warning about using these TCs as indexes seems > appropriate. Ok, I made up some text. A new draft will soon appear. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Sun Dec 5 16:06:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0865C28C162 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 16:06:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.433 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.433 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cMsoDuDExsBC for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 16:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B1728C161 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 16:06:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=LhiH02lZmaunochre0upR2Yk2hoS0zEZOHon0Wl0BpBtC7SJRaUQHsMCZc/33E7a; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.30.227.89] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PPOcU-0001Dk-Ai for opsawg@ietf.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 19:07:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01cb94d9$baa54b00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 16:08:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb190ba2086591c6564cbc90eb44ceab1c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.30.227.89 Subject: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-02.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 00:06:33 -0000 Hi - I'd like to ask the chairs whether there is consensus to take this on as an opawg item. Randy > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 3:45 PM > Subject: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-02.txt > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > Title : Textual Conventions for the Representation of Floating-Point Numbers > Author(s) : R. Presuhn > Filename : draft-presuhn-floats-02.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2010-12-05 > > This memo defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module > containing textual conventions (TCs) to represent floating-point > numbers. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-presuhn-floats-02.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ ... From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Sun Dec 5 22:43:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E902A3A6892 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 22:43:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.123 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.123 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.126, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hA7ZjwAvXwmW for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 22:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4853A672E for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 22:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius1.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.46]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B884CC000D; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:44:55 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius1.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2fUYDOO6icPk; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:44:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAED9C0004; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:44:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 58B5915DF165; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:44:53 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:44:53 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20101206064453.GA7845@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Randy Presuhn , opsawg@ietf.org References: <000f01cb94d9$baa54b00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000f01cb94d9$baa54b00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-02.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 06:43:45 -0000 On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 04:08:35PM -0800, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > I'd like to ask the chairs whether there is consensus to take this on > as an opawg item. I support this as a WG document. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From bertietf@bwijnen.net Mon Dec 6 00:39:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159AB3A69EE for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 00:39:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.115, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uRm5Tv4KUAMQ for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 00:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from postgirl.ripe.net (postgirl.ipv6.ripe.net [IPv6:2001:610:240:11::c100:1342]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D813A68AB for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 00:39:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dodo.ripe.net ([193.0.23.4]) by postgirl.ripe.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PPWct-0002aY-7I; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:40:52 +0100 Received: from dog.ripe.net ([193.0.1.217] helo=guest184.guestnet.ripe.net) by dodo.ripe.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PPWct-000068-4A; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:40:51 +0100 Message-ID: <4CFCA193.2090804@bwijnen.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:40:51 +0100 From: "Bert (IETF) Wijnen" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn , opsawg@ietf.org References: <000f01cb94d9$baa54b00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101206064453.GA7845@elstar.local> In-Reply-To: <20101206064453.GA7845@elstar.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Signature: 86ab03e524994f79ca2c75a176445dd4800e3c271f54a228ad722fc4d0caf1e6 X-RIPE-Spam-Level: -- X-RIPE-Spam-Report: Spam Total Points: -2.9 points pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------ -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-RIPE-Signature: 86ab03e524994f79ca2c75a176445dd4800e3c271f54a228ad722fc4d0caf1e6 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-02.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 08:39:34 -0000 On 12/6/10 7:44 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 04:08:35PM -0800, Randy Presuhn wrote: >> Hi - >> >> I'd like to ask the chairs whether there is consensus to take this on >> as an opawg item. > I support this as a WG document. > So do I Bert > /js > From dromasca@avaya.com Mon Dec 6 06:34:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677FC3A67F9 for ; 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d="scan'208,217";a="551684956" Received: from unknown (HELO 307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.140.12]) by p-us1-erheast-out.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2010 09:35:56 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB9552.E10D1C69" Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:35:49 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4CF59808.3050305@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question Thread-Index: AcuQ8AzO5S/nnqChQByGHeExJX4RbgEYqjMg References: <4CF59808.3050305@cisco.com> From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: "Benoit Claise" , "Al Morton" Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:34:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9552.E10D1C69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to jump in that late in the discussion. Is it necessary to use the 'service' word at all? Can't we just say -=20 =20 The IPPM working group has defined metrics for accurately measuring and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery.=20 =20 Dan (speaking as contributor) ________________________________ From: opsawg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:34 AM To: Al Morton Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question =09 =09 Hi Henk, Matt, Al, =09 In http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02#section-3 .10.1, I see =09 The IPPM working group has defined metrics for accurately measuring and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery services. The metrics include connectivity, one-way delay and loss, round-trip delay and loss, delay variation, loss patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity, and link bandwidth capacity. =09 I'm wondering if service is the right word. As you probably know, there are many discussions around: what's a service? what's an application? what's a protocol? =09 I would prefer to use "service classes" instead of "services". However, I defer to you guys.=20 Note: the IPPM charter speaks of "service classes" =09 Regards, Benoit. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9552.E10D1C69 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry=20 to jump in that late in the discussion. Is it necessary to use the = 'service'=20 word at all? Can't we just say -
 
 The IPPM working group has = defined=20 metrics for accurately measuring
   and reporting the = quality,=20 performance, and reliability of Internet
   data delivery.=20
 
Dan
(speaking as contributor)


From: opsawg-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit=20 Claise
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:34 = AM
To: Al=20 Morton
Cc: opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: [OPSAWG]=20 draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM = question

Hi Henk, Matt, Al,

In http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw= -02#section-3.10.1,=20 I see
   The IPPM working group has defined =
metrics for accurately measuring
   and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet
   data delivery services.  The metrics include connectivity, =
one-way
   delay and loss, round-trip delay and loss, delay variation, loss
   patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity, and link
   bandwidth capacity.

I'm wondering if service is the right word.
As you probably know, there are many discussions around:
	what's a service?
	what's an application?
	what's a protocol?

I would prefer to use "service classes" instead of "services". However, =
I defer to you guys.=20
Note: the IPPM charter speaks of "service classes"

Regards, Benoit.

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB9552.E10D1C69-- From Robert.Story@cobham.com Mon Dec 6 06:36:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B446C3A67F9 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.433 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.433 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bigpxI9rZxlh for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B28E3A67B4 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB6Ebejq002318; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:37:40 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB6Ebd7P031643; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:37:39 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([76.122.68.129]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:37:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:37:33 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Message-ID: <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/Se/GrV2AT74wKMwp6HL3.tD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2010 14:37:39.0371 (UTC) FILETIME=[21E597B0:01CB9553] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:36:18 -0000 --Sig_/Se/GrV2AT74wKMwp6HL3.tD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:39 +0100 Juergen wrote: JS> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 08:44:20AM -0500, Robert Story wrote: JS> > - As long as we're defining floating point TCs, should we also include JS> > a TC for a standard representation for textual floating point numbe= rs? JS> >=20 JS> > e.g. http://www.mingrentb.com/remote/pixmet_mibs/PIXMET-GLOBAL-TC.m= ib JS>=20 JS> Which problem does this solve? The exact same problem the other TCs do.. defining a standard way of representing a float, so everybody doesn't have to make up their own TC. If it helps, I'm fine with saying implementations SHOULD use the binary representations for floats, and MAY use the text one. --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/Se/GrV2AT74wKMwp6HL3.tD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz89TEACgkQ7/fVLLY1mnhW7wCdGWnUwXr0ZwVOjO7ix6LF3hHR MJMAniH3LAB3/2tx7NduDmaBJT2L+HG3 =Z6fC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/Se/GrV2AT74wKMwp6HL3.tD-- From dromasca@avaya.com Mon Dec 6 06:39:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CAB3A6807 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:39:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.528 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.528 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JYHHU1uoJUWv for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com (de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.71.100]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2706C3A680C for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:39:51 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqcDAFKE/EzGmAcF/2dsb2JhbACUZI5UcaRfAphNAoMKgj0Ejhs X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.59,305,1288584000"; d="scan'208";a="221823232" Received: from unknown (HELO co300216-co-erhwest.avaya.com) ([198.152.7.5]) by de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2010 09:41:14 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.59,305,1288584000"; d="scan'208";a="550991979" Received: from unknown (HELO 307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.140.12]) by co300216-co-erhwest-out.avaya.com with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2010 09:41:13 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:41:10 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20101129202340.GA42223@elstar.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Roles of IETF management protocols in draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw Thread-Index: AcuQA3Itvk/8fgdPT0GTGUGG+ykxaQFUBllg References: <20101129202340.GA42223@elstar.local> From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" , "Juergen Quittek" Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Roles of IETF management protocols in draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:39:54 -0000 Yes, please.=20 Dan (all hats on)=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: opsawg-bounces@ietf.org=20 > [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 10:24 PM > To: Juergen Quittek > Cc: opsawg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Roles of IETF management protocols in=20 > draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw >=20 > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 06:36:13PM +0000, Juergen Quittek wrote: > =20 > > I would rather (slowly) start stating that the IETF management=20 > > framework consists of a set of protocols including SNMP, Syslog,=20 > > NETCONF, and IPFIX that all have different properties and=20 > are designed=20 > > for different > > (management) application areas. >=20 > +1 >=20 > /js >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg >=20 From henk@ripe.net Mon Dec 6 06:50:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32623A67FA for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:50:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id afcrxbPGPiL6 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from postlady.ripe.net (postlady.ipv6.ripe.net [IPv6:2001:610:240:11::c100:1341]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB4C3A67AB for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 06:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayeaye.ripe.net ([193.0.23.5]) by postlady.ripe.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PPcPO-00048L-0E for opsawg@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:51:19 +0100 Received: from [193.0.21.124] (helo=guest169.guestnet.ripe.net) by ayeaye.ripe.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PPcPN-0007YN-To for opsawg@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:51:17 +0100 Message-ID: <4CFCF865.8020300@ripe.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:51:17 +0100 From: Henk Uijterwaal Organization: RIPE NCC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: opsawg@ietf.org References: <4CF59808.3050305@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Signature: e0cdef1f45f89a40ad608d255b27e7d5b1698249171d81dddeec573f9c198d00 X-RIPE-Spam-Level: -- X-RIPE-Spam-Report: Spam Total Points: -2.9 points pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------ -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-RIPE-Signature: e0cdef1f45f89a40ad608d255b27e7d5b1698249171d81dddeec573f9c198d00 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:50:01 -0000 On 06/12/2010 15:35, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > Sorry to jump in that late in the discussion. Is it necessary to use the > 'service' word at all? Can't we just say - > > The IPPM working group has defined metrics for accurately measuring > and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet > data delivery. Sorry that I missed this, but I agree with Dan, Henk > > Dan > (speaking as contributor) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > *From:* opsawg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Benoit Claise > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:34 AM > *To:* Al Morton > *Cc:* opsawg@ietf.org > *Subject:* [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question > > Hi Henk, Matt, Al, > > In > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02#section-3.10.1, > I see > > The IPPM working group has defined metrics for accurately measuring > and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet > data delivery _services_. The metrics include connectivity, one-way > delay and loss, round-trip delay and loss, delay variation, loss > patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity, and link > bandwidth capacity. > > I'm wondering if service is the right word. > As you probably know, there are many discussions around: > what's a service? > what's an application? > what's a protocol? > > I would prefer to use "service classes" instead of "services". However, I defer to you guys. > Note: the IPPM charter speaks of "service classes" > > Regards, Benoit. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I confirm today what I denied yesterday. Anonymous Politician. From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Mon Dec 6 07:48:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1883A6813 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:48:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.965, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4OLJeleyP6HS for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41BF3A681A for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.47]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C19C000E; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:20 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m25ml5-bW0fr; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735A4C0004; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:18 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4BBA815E055A; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:17 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Robert Story Message-ID: <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Story , Randy Presuhn , opsawg@ietf.org References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:48:57 -0000 On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 09:37:33AM -0500, Robert Story wrote: > On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:39 +0100 Juergen wrote: > JS> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 08:44:20AM -0500, Robert Story wrote: > JS> > - As long as we're defining floating point TCs, should we also include > JS> > a TC for a standard representation for textual floating point numbers? > JS> > > JS> > e.g. http://www.mingrentb.com/remote/pixmet_mibs/PIXMET-GLOBAL-TC.mib > JS> > JS> Which problem does this solve? > > The exact same problem the other TCs do.. defining a standard way of > representing a float, so everybody doesn't have to make up their own > TC. If it helps, I'm fine with saying implementations SHOULD use the > binary representations for floats, and MAY use the text one. Having two ways to represent the same data does not seem to be helpful unless there is a strong technical reason for supporting two formats and then it should be explained how to choose between them. So unless someone brings up a technical argument, I vote for one representation of floating point numbers in MIB modules. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From ietf@quittek.at Mon Dec 6 09:14:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3393A683D for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:14:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.083 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.083 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kUGL7iasml3v for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E903A6838 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.116.60.161] ([209.116.60.161]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap2) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MJnBU-1POYj527KW-001gir; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:15:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Juergen Quittek Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:15:16 -0800 To: Robert Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:nsVtS32eKPG7NiYwv+efZVKim5jedShvJVb2rDelRS+ hcGc2BLZhDG3RvLv7aWWJ4aANA1bSqAe/obJ2GMgkJWqNnZ2Iq hxgoEpu/qI1oFvPwX1xYw6nIgD9u/815JSOo9o3r5mnBRfi4dX ZIGDYLIphpRSruMkyQsTBt7fubg/YoyvbH/Ky94dh5I6s4elOs yXV0J4kNSlyztsPx8GtGg== Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:14:05 -0000 Hi Robert, What would be the value of having a ASCII encoding of floats in addition to a binary one? Juergen Q. Am 06.12.2010 um 06:37 schrieb Robert Story: > On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:39 +0100 Juergen wrote: > JS> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 08:44:20AM -0500, Robert Story wrote: > JS> > - As long as we're defining floating point TCs, should we > also include > JS> > a TC for a standard representation for textual floating > point numbers? > JS> > > JS> > e.g. http://www.mingrentb.com/remote/pixmet_mibs/PIXMET- > GLOBAL-TC.mib > JS> > JS> Which problem does this solve? > > The exact same problem the other TCs do.. defining a standard way of > representing a float, so everybody doesn't have to make up their own > TC. If it helps, I'm fine with saying implementations SHOULD use the > binary representations for floats, and MAY use the text one. > > -- > Robert Story > Senior Software Engineer > SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg From Robert.Story@cobham.com Mon Dec 6 11:01:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C883A68A9 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.433 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.433 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wRJ363EdKPPH for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9973A68A0 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB6J37qg008228; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:03:07 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB6J36HK013978; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:03:06 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([76.122.68.129]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:03:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:02:55 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Juergen Quittek Message-ID: <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/gzgvrECn2m6cC8soaCQS61Q"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2010 19:03:06.0561 (UTC) FILETIME=[373DEB10:01CB9578] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:01:45 -0000 --Sig_/gzgvrECn2m6cC8soaCQS61Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:15:16 -0800 Juergen wrote: JQ> What would be the value of having a ASCII encoding of floats in =20 JQ> addition to a binary one? People are already using ascii floats, and with no standard, there are lots of different ascii formats being used. This means that managers must deal with special cases. If we define a TC, future modules can use it and be interoperable with more agents. I understand there was lots of contention about floats in past working groups. I'm guessing one of them was that small resource constrained agents didn't want to have to include full ieee 754 support when all they want to do is report a temperature of 98.6. In addition to resource constraints, licensing and distribution issues might be a concern. Are there freely available and license free implementations for 754? --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/gzgvrECn2m6cC8soaCQS61Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz9M2kACgkQ7/fVLLY1mnhIqgCgoFugLfKny+u8W+/jWf2UcLCN SSkAn3tLpZurNxFURBW+hXuZ02ZYnCVa =mVQc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/gzgvrECn2m6cC8soaCQS61Q-- From Robert.Story@cobham.com Mon Dec 6 11:06:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EC23A6889 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:06:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.083, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3U-A0oGDDNxj for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250593A6873 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB6J7nIU008298; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:07:49 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB6J7nLt014201; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:07:49 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([76.122.68.129]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:07:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:07:40 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20101206140740.6182a112@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/S+5RhEVLhkBvTSu29UiAdRC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2010 19:07:49.0465 (UTC) FILETIME=[DFDDA490:01CB9578] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:06:27 -0000 --Sig_/S+5RhEVLhkBvTSu29UiAdRC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:24:00 -0800 Randy wrote: RP> Any other issues? While googling around for IEEE 754 libraries, I found some messages that led me to believe that the IEEE specification does not say anything about byte order. I don't have a spare $30 to buy a copy of the specification... Any IEEE members out there that can grab a copy and verify this? If it's true, we should probably say something about it. I'd recommend specifying network byte order. --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/S+5RhEVLhkBvTSu29UiAdRC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz9NIIACgkQ7/fVLLY1mnhKrQCcCh/0ZYMhrvWqCTo3QOyuguOy qpMAn0f6moOnOGDuRI89GufCsSPquFLE =8PtS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/S+5RhEVLhkBvTSu29UiAdRC-- From braschoe@cisco.com Mon Dec 6 11:15:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFA428B23E for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:15:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.179 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.179 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.746, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7e91AFrWrIqi for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com (rtp-iport-1.cisco.com [64.102.122.148]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D9228C0CF for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:15:13 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAD/F/EytJV2d/2dsb2JhbACjPHGjNJsmhUkEhF+JKA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.59,306,1288569600"; d="scan'208";a="189560377" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2010 19:16:37 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com [72.163.62.201]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id oB6JGb1O014242; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 19:16:37 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-204.cisco.com ([72.163.62.211]) by xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:16:37 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:16:36 -0600 Message-ID: <308743659A7CB142B28029FB77F1128E01BAD1D8@XMB-RCD-204.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt Thread-Index: AcuVeEjVm6dMRiM2Q62WOar98V5yHQAAQkGw References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com><20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local><20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> From: "Brad Schoening -X (braschoe - Piepeople Consulting, Inc. at Cisco)" To: "Robert Story" , "Juergen Quittek" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2010 19:16:37.0206 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A6C8760:01CB957A] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:15:14 -0000 Endianness doesn't appear to be part of the IEEE standard. That would make sense, since the float values must be in host-byte order. Wouldn't it be desirable for values like temperature to be reported in fixed point, not floating point?=20 -----Original Message----- From: opsawg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Story Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 2:03 PM To: Juergen Quittek Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:15:16 -0800 Juergen wrote: JQ> What would be the value of having a ASCII encoding of floats in=20 JQ> addition to a binary one? People are already using ascii floats, and with no standard, there are lots of different ascii formats being used. This means that managers must deal with special cases. If we define a TC, future modules can use it and be interoperable with more agents. I understand there was lots of contention about floats in past working groups. I'm guessing one of them was that small resource constrained agents didn't want to have to include full ieee 754 support when all they want to do is report a temperature of 98.6. In addition to resource constraints, licensing and distribution issues might be a concern. Are there freely available and license free implementations for 754? -- Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Mon Dec 6 11:46:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760823A6895 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:46:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.137, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XP+cODOW4pqe for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391C83A6889 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.48]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D77C000E; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:47:35 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Zt+4IlxI-n0; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:47:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06455C0020; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:47:25 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 542DA15E0B7B; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:47:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:47:24 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Brad Schoening -X (braschoe - Piepeople Consulting, Inc. at Cisco)" Message-ID: <20101206194723.GA10329@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: "Brad Schoening -X (braschoe - Piepeople Consulting, Inc. at Cisco)" , Robert Story , Juergen Quittek , opsawg@ietf.org References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> <308743659A7CB142B28029FB77F1128E01BAD1D8@XMB-RCD-204.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <308743659A7CB142B28029FB77F1128E01BAD1D8@XMB-RCD-204.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, Robert Story Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:46:17 -0000 On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 01:16:36PM -0600, Brad Schoening -X (braschoe - Piepeople Consulting, Inc. at Cisco) wrote: > Endianness doesn't appear to be part of the IEEE standard. That would > make sense, since the float values must be in host-byte order. > > Wouldn't it be desirable for values like temperature to be reported in > fixed point, not floating point? This is what the ENTITY-SENSOR-MIB is doing. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Mon Dec 6 11:54:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A1C3A68A9 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:54:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.032 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.032 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.949, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SVkBP8azMfd8 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2E33A6889 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.49]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D3FC0020; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:56:06 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XscLQ93a6Ojb; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:56:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDA9C000E; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:56:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8B54A15E0BF8; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:56:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:56:03 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Robert Story Message-ID: <20101206195601.GB10329@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Story , Juergen Quittek , opsawg@ietf.org References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:54:44 -0000 On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 02:02:55PM -0500, Robert Story wrote: > I understand there was lots of contention about floats in past working > groups. I'm guessing one of them was that small resource constrained > agents didn't want to have to include full ieee 754 support when all > they want to do is report a temperature of 98.6. In addition to > resource constraints, licensing and distribution issues might be a > concern. Are there freely available and license free implementations > for 754? Using the 754 number representation does not mean that a device needs to implement floating point arithmetic. This continues to be a common misconception. Whether to use floating point numbers or not should be the decision of the MIB module author. For the details of the representation, I suggest we use the same format as is used by the standard XDR representation for floating point numbers (see sections 4.6, 4.7 and 4.8 of RFC 4506). /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From Robert.Story@cobham.com Mon Dec 6 12:38:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA9E3A68A0 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:38:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.877 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.722, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rGz2JhAGpr6h for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9553B3A689F for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB6KdfmI010126; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:39:41 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB6KdfNo018697; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:39:41 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([76.122.68.129]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:39:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:39:36 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Message-ID: <20101206153936.317f26f2@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: <20101206195601.GB10329@elstar.local> References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> <20101206195601.GB10329@elstar.local> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/JsTczytQPjBY92.Zo6nFPtz"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2010 20:39:41.0133 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5136FD0:01CB9585] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 20:38:20 -0000 --Sig_/JsTczytQPjBY92.Zo6nFPtz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:56:03 +0100 Juergen wrote: JS> For the details of the representation, I suggest we use the same JS> format as is used by the standard XDR representation for floating JS> point numbers (see sections 4.6, 4.7 and 4.8 of RFC 4506). Do you mean reference 4506, or cut-and-paste those sections? RFC 4506 references IEEE 754-1985. Anyone know if there were changes to the binary interchange format between 754-1985 and 754-2008? --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/JsTczytQPjBY92.Zo6nFPtz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz9SgwACgkQ7/fVLLY1mnhC8wCgkQWlVmt0uT1tr9NQEKIRvzb6 WHcAn1BqMlXKYHdzQYCpXBjXNBYec93x =Xl4Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/JsTczytQPjBY92.Zo6nFPtz-- From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Mon Dec 6 12:50:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07A73A6894 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:50:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LXrII7+rgnA for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575243A6893 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.47]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3B7C000E; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:51:50 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fkBlPRemBSII; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:51:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD933C0010; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:51:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A70FF15E0FBF; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:51:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:51:47 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Robert Story Message-ID: <20101206205147.GA10538@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Story , Juergen Quittek , opsawg@ietf.org References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> <20101206195601.GB10329@elstar.local> <20101206153936.317f26f2@sparta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20101206153936.317f26f2@sparta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 20:50:27 -0000 On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 03:39:36PM -0500, Robert Story wrote: > On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:56:03 +0100 Juergen wrote: > JS> For the details of the representation, I suggest we use the same > JS> format as is used by the standard XDR representation for floating > JS> point numbers (see sections 4.6, 4.7 and 4.8 of RFC 4506). > > Do you mean reference 4506, or cut-and-paste those sections? RFC 4506 > references IEEE 754-1985. Anyone know if there were changes to the > binary interchange format between 754-1985 and 754-2008? Cut-and-paste what is relevant. My point is that we are not the first to exchange IEEE 754 format numbers over the network. Those who have access to IEEE Xplore can download the 2008 version of the standard. http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/IEEESTD.2008.4610935 I do have access to this document but I can't share it openly due to the copy being licensed to my university. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Dec 6 13:05:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC8363A68BF for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:05:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L6-pzQXPrhTD for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7168C3A68C7 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:05:12 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=L01EtBsUlq5jR0pAQDiHjQDO8aNcqogjlcyXB5UGM+eSBT74AWiQAs9Yn/Jg+pT+; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.55.88] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PPiGa-00071O-9i for opsawg@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 16:06:36 -0500 Message-ID: <003601cb9589$91d366c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com><20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local><20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com><20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> <20101206195601.GB10329@elstar.local> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:07:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb688ebb0b1eb0f76d1673edc38fd3b0f4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.55.88 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 21:05:13 -0000 Hi - > From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > To: "Robert Story" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:56 AM > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > > On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 02:02:55PM -0500, Robert Story wrote: > > > I understand there was lots of contention about floats in past working > > groups. I'm guessing one of them was that small resource constrained > > agents didn't want to have to include full ieee 754 support when all > > they want to do is report a temperature of 98.6. In addition to > > resource constraints, licensing and distribution issues might be a > > concern. Are there freely available and license free implementations > > for 754? I'm not sure what you mean by "license free". There certainly were freely available implementations the last time I had to do this stuff in software. But if all an agent needs to do is report a value, the process of converting an internal fixed-point or scaled integer representation into a float is rather straightforward. Any decent article on floating point arithmetic will make clear what needs to be done. > Using the 754 number representation does not mean that a device needs > to implement floating point arithmetic. This continues to be a common > misconception. Whether to use floating point numbers or not should be > the decision of the MIB module author. Yup. > For the details of the representation, I suggest we use the same > format as is used by the standard XDR representation for floating > point numbers (see sections 4.6, 4.7 and 4.8 of RFC 4506). But *not* actually referring to or copying the RFC 4506 text, since the useful parts are just a recapitulation of the IEEE spec, and it confuses the question of byte ordering, since XDR just uses whatever the sender internally prefers. I specifically said "interchange format" for IEEE floats, since that *does* specify that the sign bit comes first. For a freely-available secondary reference, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754-2008#Interchange_formats Randy From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Mon Dec 6 13:16:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E87D3A68BF for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:16:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.149, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67iY2hOMOtHV for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D6B3A6882 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.49]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AECCC0020; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 22:18:04 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A2Fw85i6K9FS; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 22:18:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3852EC0010; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 22:18:03 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 36CC615E11E8; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 22:18:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 22:18:00 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20101206211800.GE10538@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Randy Presuhn , opsawg@ietf.org References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> <20101206195601.GB10329@elstar.local> <003601cb9589$91d366c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003601cb9589$91d366c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 21:16:41 -0000 On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 01:07:18PM -0800, Randy Presuhn wrote: > But *not* actually referring to or copying the RFC 4506 text, since > the useful parts are just a recapitulation of the IEEE spec, and it > confuses the question of byte ordering, since XDR just uses whatever > the sender internally prefers. Recapitulation of some of the IEEE spec might be useful if we can't assume everyone has access to it. Are you sure that XDR allows different byte ordering? What makes you believe this? > I specifically said "interchange format" for IEEE floats, since that > *does* specify that the sign bit comes first. Isn't this what RFC 4506 says? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Dec 6 13:36:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337C13A68B1 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:36:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.104, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g+2cFNju-dSO for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD303A68AF for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:36:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=QFPqNpEHph3W7hCeAuk5Wb7nXo9CDlfYvfwWAm+wIxVJcZFQ/8+PGIxHSGwGnnDR; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.55.88] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PPikS-000682-Mn for opsawg@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 16:37:29 -0500 Message-ID: <007f01cb958d$e2ce7660$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> <20101206195601.GB10329@elstar.local> <003601cb9589$91d366c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101206211800.GE10538@elstar.local> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:38:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb11f84e2ece0f1a4d4f4eb7c9fad0f6ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.55.88 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 21:36:08 -0000 Hi - > From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > > On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 01:07:18PM -0800, Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > But *not* actually referring to or copying the RFC 4506 text, since > > the useful parts are just a recapitulation of the IEEE spec, and it > > confuses the question of byte ordering, since XDR just uses whatever > > the sender internally prefers. > > Recapitulation of some of the IEEE spec might be useful if we can't > assume everyone has access to it. > > Are you sure that XDR allows different byte ordering? What makes you > believe this? Faulty memory. :-) My mistake. > > I specifically said "interchange format" for IEEE floats, since that > > *does* specify that the sign bit comes first. > > Isn't this what RFC 4506 says? If the IEEE specification is sufficient (I think it is) I'd rather not add a level of indirection by citing or extracting text from RFC 4506. If we reference or copy the RFC 4506 text, it opens the rathole of whether that summary is a sufficient and exhaustive description. If one still needs the IEEE spec for "the whole story", then the objection that "you need to pay money to get the spec" doesn't really hold water. Randy From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Mon Dec 6 14:06:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8F13A68BE for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:06:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.103 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.146, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fydycVs4KRBN for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7973A68B1 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.47]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA27C000E; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:08:05 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HIfFMBbq5Nx9; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:08:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D157C000D; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:08:01 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0427415E1388; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:07:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:07:59 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Ralph Droms Message-ID: <20101206220759.GH10538@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Ralph Droms , opsawg@ietf.org References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-tsou-opsawg-network-configuration X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 22:06:43 -0000 On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 07:12:35PM -0500, Ralph Droms wrote: > Comments based on my review of draft-tsou-opsawg-network-configuration... > > What is the purpose of the document? I think it is to summarize > existing configuration mechanisms as several levels and identify > gaps. Who is the audience? Will the document be used to motivate > new work that would be generally applicable to joining any device to > a network or is it a reference doc from which a particular group > (e.g., 3GPP) will devise a more limited-scope mechanism? As the document says, we are trying to summarize existing mechanisms and identifying any gaps. Whether the IETF or other bodies will take any action to address any of the gaps, we do not know. In the IETF, this likely depends on whether someone puts a good proposal on the table and obtains support for the proposal. > How does a device decide among alternative networks to join? E.g., > an 802.11 device may see multiple networks with multiple SSIDs; how > does it decide which to join? We have not discussed this in the ID. So far, section 5.1 considers the establishment of link layer connectivity out of scope since this is pretty much link-layer specific. > I think you have the definition and use of DUID-UUID and UUID a > little confused. UUID is already available as a unique, stable > device ID. The DUID-UUID is a derivative ID solely used for DHCPv6. > Therefore, in G1 I think all that needs to be newly defined is the > DUID-UUID for DHCPv6. Also, the problem with DUIDs and DHCPv6 is > not so much the lack of a stable identifier - DUIDs are, by > definition in RFC 3315, stable - as the lack of a non-opaque > identifier that is constant across all bootstrap steps in the > device. So would this be a more precise statement: G1: Definition of non-opaque identifiers that are stable across all bootstrap steps in a device for DHCPv6 such as the work described in [I-D.dhc-duid-uuid]. > You mention the use of DHCP for several bits of configuration > information. DHCP is likely not to be useful in the inter-domain > case as the device's Service Provider is not likely to have the > ability to configure the DHCP parameters returned to the device by > Service Provider X. I think we mention this at the beginning of the paragraph just before section 5.4. Perhaps this is not clear enough? > Which brings to mind an aspect of configuration that might be useful > to consider for your document: which parts of the configuration are > established independently by the device and reported to the Service > Provider and which are required to be delivered from the Service > Provider to the device. For example, in the inter-domain case, the > specific IP address used by the device is provided by the remote SP > and needs to be delivered to the device's SP, while pointers to > other services and applications in the device's SP network must be > delivered from the device's SP to the device. Do you have a concrete proposal where you want to have this discussion? I believe some of this covered implicitly in the current text but perhaps it makes sense to have a more generic discussion of this aspect at the end of section 2. Is that what you have in your mind? > RFC 2131 is a more current reference to cite for DHCPv4. This reference is used except in section 1 where we talk about the history and thus reference an older version of DHCP. > This last comment is somewhat vague and I'll need to re-read the > document to improve the comment. The organization of the steps the > mechanisms seems somewhat arbitrary and ad hoc. Is it possible to > organize the document around the specific pieces or types of > information, and then tie in the ways in which that information can > be delivered? For example, relating back to my question about which > network to join, the device needs some sort of network identifier, > which can be delivered in a variety of ways. One of the mechanisms > for passing information, which I don't think you mentioned, is > through physical proximity such as holding the device next to a > wireless AP; when both devices flash an external LED, the device has > joined the right network. As mentioned above, section declares the establishment of link-layer connectivity pretty much out of scope for the document. Our motivation here is that link-layer technology largely is non IETF technology. Do you think it is essential to discuss how different link-layers may allow to establish link-layer connectivity? Concerning the larger question, I am not sure yet that organizing the document around the information that needs to be delivered adds clarity (nor to I think the current organization of steps is "somewhat arbitrary and ad hoc"). Perhaps you can post a counter proposal so that I can see why a different structure is less "ad hoc". /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Mon Dec 6 14:13:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1172A28B23E for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:13:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3K1e-4CpZ2Xr for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8AF73A68CC for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.47]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF733C000E; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:15:10 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1OCLvfmFAyQc; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:15:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6C5C000D; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:15:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id B71AA15E1467; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:15:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:15:07 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20101206221507.GI10538@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Randy Presuhn , opsawg@ietf.org References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206140255.440ff730@sparta.com> <20101206195601.GB10329@elstar.local> <003601cb9589$91d366c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101206211800.GE10538@elstar.local> <007f01cb958d$e2ce7660$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <007f01cb958d$e2ce7660$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 22:13:48 -0000 On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 01:38:12PM -0800, Randy Presuhn wrote: > If the IEEE specification is sufficient (I think it is) I'd rather not add > a level of indirection by citing or extracting text from RFC 4506. > If we reference or copy the RFC 4506 text, it opens the rathole of > whether that summary is a sufficient and exhaustive description. > If one still needs the IEEE spec for "the whole story", then the > objection that "you need to pay money to get the spec" doesn't > really hold water. Personally, I am fine with just referencing the IEEE spec. The TC definitions that triggered this work apparently were all doing just that. If, however, there is a chance of ambiguity how the bits are ordered, I think having a simple ASCII layout in the DESCRIPTION clause may be helpful advice for implementors (who might just be too lazy to get and read the IEEE spec ;-). My motivation behind the pointer to RFC 4506 was simply to make it clear that there are existing IETF protocols happily exchanging numbers in binary IEEE floating point format. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From wjhns1@hardakers.net Mon Dec 6 15:18:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4573A68D7 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:18:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iNd5BJaIKS2M for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.236.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B91543A6889 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (wjh.hardakers.net [10.0.0.2]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F8712084F; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:19:08 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Hardaker To: Robert Story Organization: Sparta References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:19:08 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> (Juergen Schoenwaelder's message of "Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:17 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 23:18:06 -0000 >>>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:17 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder said: JS> Having two ways to represent the same data does not seem to be helpful JS> unless there is a strong technical reason for supporting two formats JS> and then it should be explained how to choose between them. So unless JS> someone brings up a technical argument, I vote for one representation JS> of floating point numbers in MIB modules. Different TCs are useful for different reasons. Some may want text representations sent because that's what they're parsing out of /proc on the agent side so why convert it at all when it's going to be unconverted at the management side? We're already defining a new format in the first place that differs from the first float implementation. -- Wes Hardaker Cobham Analytic Solutions From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Mon Dec 6 15:30:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6E528C0D7 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:30:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.141, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVYJ+09vEqck for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04E428C0F4 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.47]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD3EC002B; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 00:31:32 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VriT544hPRd2; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 00:31:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDA2C0025; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 00:31:31 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7BD5A15E178F; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 00:31:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 00:31:30 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Wes Hardaker Message-ID: <20101206233130.GA11313@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Wes Hardaker , Robert Story , opsawg@ietf.org References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, Robert Story Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 23:30:42 -0000 On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 03:19:08PM -0800, Wes Hardaker wrote: > >>>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:17 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder said: > > JS> Having two ways to represent the same data does not seem to be helpful > JS> unless there is a strong technical reason for supporting two formats > JS> and then it should be explained how to choose between them. So unless > JS> someone brings up a technical argument, I vote for one representation > JS> of floating point numbers in MIB modules. > > Different TCs are useful for different reasons. Some may want text > representations sent because that's what they're parsing out of /proc > on the agent side so why convert it at all when it's going to be > unconverted at the management side? The value of standard protocols lies in agreeing on a common representation of bits on the wire. Once you write a MIB module, you fix the format on the wire irrespective of whether the data on a certain device implementing the MIB module exists in exactly that format or a different format. This has always been the case with MIB modules. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Dec 6 15:30:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4152C3A68D7 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:30:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.688 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.688 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.255, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0FAhXo-oAt5x for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B4E28C0E4 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:30:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=iDqaY1FxTwlYbGnTmO3bX3r9PgaS8NhCIhmafRNH74PTG01aUYvnAKIj7ekhtZcy; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.55.88] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PPkXb-0003rG-6b for opsawg@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:32:19 -0500 Message-ID: <002a01cb959d$eeb90ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com><20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local><20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com><20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:33:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfbac78853619a46845644793a00b917eb8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.55.88 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 23:30:56 -0000 Hi - > From: "Wes Hardaker" > To: "Robert Story" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 3:19 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt ... > Different TCs are useful for different reasons. Some may want text > representations sent because that's what they're parsing out of /proc > on the agent side so why convert it at all when it's going to be > unconverted at the management side? But are those really floats? I suspect some of these things really end up being fixed point decimal numbers, which I'd hope to keep out of scope of *this* document. If the information is defined as "the foo field parsed out of /proc", then the syntax isn't really going to be defined in terms of a generic fixed / floating format, but rather in terms of what /proc can put in that field, which could be more or less constrained. Randy From bclaise@cisco.com Mon Dec 6 20:50:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572C13A68FB for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:50:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.943 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.943 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.413, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.069] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3F8PCEBGwKin for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from av-tac-bru.cisco.com (weird-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAF928C0EA for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:50:38 -0800 (PST) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB74q2Us029382; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:52:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.61.82.185] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4794.cisco.com [10.61.82.185]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB74q1jH006746; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:52:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4CFD68B3.8010904@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:50:27 -0800 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" , opsawg@ietf.org References: <4CE2907A.6020204@cisco.com> <4CE29DDC.7090207@cisco.com> <20101116152403.GA83091@elstar.local> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A640148487E@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <4CF59270.40006@cisco.com> <20101201070357.GB47679@elstar.local> In-Reply-To: <20101201070357.GB47679@elstar.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 1 X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 04:50:39 -0000 On 30/11/2010 23:03, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 04:10:24PM -0800, Benoit Claise wrote: >> Hi Mehmet, >> >> In the draft, you wrote: >> >> The target audience is >> those people seeking guidance on how to construct an appropriate >> Internet Protocol Suite profile for the Smart Grid. >> >> Actually, I would like to have more focus on the target audience. At least a separate paragraph, or optionally a new sub section. >> I could see the different audience >> - new comers (or not) to the IETF who want to have a quick overview >> - network administrator >> - IETF, but non OPS area WGs, who wants to know how to manage their "stuff" >> - non IETF SDOs. Smart Grid is just one example of this. >> - implementation technique > Finalizing this document will take quite some effort and I doubt we > have the resources to write such a document for every consortium of > the day. While the Smart Grid might have triggered this document, I > agree we should aim at a much broader audience. I do not think that > implementors are the main target of this effort. How about this: > > - everybody interested in getting an overview of the current set of > IETF management protocols > > - IETF working groups who need to select management technology in > order to manage their protocols > > - non-IETF standard-developing organizations interested in using IETF > management protocols > > I do not think we need to spell out network administrators > explicitly. BTW, for those running real-world networks, a discussion > of the security aspects of the various protocols and how to integrate > key management etc. across protocols is likely a serious question that > perhaps this document should address. Agreed 100% Regards, Benoit. > /js > From bclaise@cisco.com Mon Dec 6 21:04:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1083A68FD for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:04:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.938 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.938 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.409, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.069, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qb2y7bjQ47sz for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:04:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from av-tac-bru.cisco.com (weird-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A669D3A6900 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:04:22 -0800 (PST) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB74pvCv029358; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:51:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.61.82.185] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4794.cisco.com [10.61.82.185]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB74pUrQ006509; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:51:34 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4CFD6835.5000007@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:48:21 -0800 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" References: <4CF5951E.6020004@cisco.com> <4CF59C0E.90308@cisco.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6401529E07@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6401529E07@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020700080509060107050200" Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 2 X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 05:04:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020700080509060107050200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mehmet, > > Hi Benoit, > > thank you for your review and comments. See inline. > > Mehmet > > *From:*ext Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 01, 2010 1:51 AM > *To:* Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich); opsawg@ietf.org > *Subject:* Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 2 > > Hi Mehmet, > > Here is the review of the remaining part. > > . . . > > > > 3.9.2. COPS-PR > > [RFC3159] defines the Structure of Policy Provisioning Information > (SPPI), an extension to the SMImodeling language used to write > Policy Information Base (PIB) modules. COPS-PR [RFC3084 ] uses the > Common Open Policy Service (COPS) protocol for support of policy > provisioning. COPS-PR and the Structure of Policy Provisioning > Information (SPPI) have been approved as Proposed Standards. > > I would cut/paste this sentence below. > Expressed like this, it means that this is an important standard, but > the end of the section is quite different. > [Mehmet]: I assume you mean the last sentence above. > Yes, sorry. > > > > . . . > > > These metrics are designed for network operator use and provide > unbiased quantitative measures of performance. > > This sentence, copied from the charter, should be in here. > > The metrics developed by the WG were developed inside an active > measurement context, that is, the devices used to measure the metrics > produce their own traffic. However, most metrics can be used inside a > passive context as well. No work is planned is this area though, > this may be changed with AD approval. > > [Mehmet]: I agree. I would though skip "this may be changed with AD > approval." > > The main properties of individual IPPM performance and reliability > > metrics are that the metrics should be well-defined and concrete thus > > implementable, and they should exhibit no bias for IP clouds > > implemented with identical technology. In addition, the methodology > > used to implement a metric should have the property of being > > repeatable with consistent measurements. > > > > IETF IP Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in the > > industry and adopted by different SDOs such as ITU-T. > > Actually, any others than ITU-T? > [Mehmet]: Al wrote MEF was active in this area too. > > > > RTFM is e.g. used for the measurement of DNS performance. > > I consider RTFM as an experiment done before IPFIX. > btw, http://tools.ietf.org/html//rfc2724 > is experimental. > Again, it depends on the target audience. If we want to keep a history > of what has been done in OPS, that's interesting. Otherwise, I would > remove RTFM > [Mehmet]: I think I can agree. RTFM is probably not important anymore. > > > . . . > > Management data models have a slightly different interpretation for > interoperability. This is discussed in detail in [BCP27] > "Advancement of MIB specifications on the IETF Standards Track" > [RFC2438 ] with special considerations about the advancement process > for management data models. However most IETF management data models > never advance beyond Proposed Standard. > > Note that MIB is just one data model. > What about IPFIX? > [Mehmet]: What would be your proposal? Should we put it into chapter 4.2? > First list the different data models in the intro of sectoin 4.0: MIB, IPFIX, RADIUS. Somehow, when I read it, because the second paragraph focuses on MIB, I misinterpreted that you were only covering MIB. Re-reading this, I missed the "s" at the end of the data models in: This section lists solutions for which information or data models have been standardized at the IETF Then, for IPFIX, at least list it in accounting and performance management. > > > > > > 4.4. Performance Management > > Should we mention the IPPM perf metrics in here? > > [Mehmet]: RFC4150 and BCP0108(RFC4148) are mentioned below. Which RFC > do you mean? > > > . . . > > The RMON matrix group stores statistics for conversations between > sets of two addresses. The filter group allows packetsto be matched > by a filter equation. These matched packets form a data stream that > may be captured or may generate events. The Packet Capture group > allows packets to be captured after they flow through a channel. The > event group controls the generation and notification of events from > this device. > > Don't want to start a lengthy debate here, but my personal view is > that RMON host, matrix are superseded by IPFIX: more granular, more > flexible > At the minimum, we should mention IPFIX somewhere here. This comes > back to my point before that MIBs are not the only data model at the IETF. > > Indeed, this is worth a discussion. At the end, I think we may not > skip RMON, which is still important for some folks. > The goal is certainly to skip RMON, but to explain RMON and IPFIX scopes. > > I would like to suggest to describe this use case in IPFIX chapter in > detail. Would like to provide text for it? > Not sure exactly where this text should be, but yes, I will provide some text. Regards, Benoit. > > . . . > --------------020700080509060107050200 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mehmet,

Hi Benoit,

 

thank you for your review and comments. See inline.

 

Mehmet

From: ext Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 1:51 AM
To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich); opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: Review of draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-01, part 2

 

Hi Mehmet,

Here is the review of the remaining part.

. . . 
 

3.9.2.  COPS-PR

   [RFC3159] defines the Structure of Policy Provisioning Information
   (SPPI), an extension to the SMI modeling language used to write
   Policy Information Base (PIB) modules.  COPS-PR [RFC3084] uses the
   Common Open Policy Service (COPS) protocol for support of policy
   provisioning.  COPS-PR and the Structure of Policy Provisioning
   Information (SPPI) have been approved as Proposed Standards.

I would cut/paste this sentence below.
Expressed like this, it means that this is an important standard, but the end of the section is quite different.
[Mehmet]: I assume you mean the last sentence above.

Yes, sorry.

 

. . .

 
   These metrics are designed for network operator use and provide
   unbiased quantitative measures of performance.

This sentence, copied from the charter, should be in here.

The metrics developed by the WG were developed inside an active
measurement context, that is, the devices used to measure the metrics
produce their own traffic.
However, most metrics can be used inside a
passive context as well. No work is planned is this area though,
this may be changed with AD approval.

 

[Mehmet]: I agree. I would though skip „ this may be changed with AD approval.“

   The main properties of individual IPPM performance and reliability
   metrics are that the metrics should be well-defined and concrete thus
   implementable, and they should exhibit no bias for IP clouds
   implemented with identical technology.  In addition, the methodology
   used to implement a metric should have the property of being
   repeatable with consistent measurements.
 
   IETF IP Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in the
   industry and adopted by different SDOs such as ITU-T.

Actually, any others than ITU-T?
[Mehmet]: Al wrote MEF was active in this area too.

 
 
   RTFM is e.g. used for the measurement of DNS performance.

I consider RTFM as an experiment done before IPFIX.
btw, http://tools.ietf.org/html//rfc2724 is experimental.
Again, it depends on the target audience. If we want to keep a history of what has been done in OPS, that's interesting. Otherwise, I would remove RTFM
[Mehmet]: I think I can agree. RTFM is probably not important anymore.

 
. . .
 
   Management data models have a slightly different interpretation for
   interoperability.  This is discussed in detail in [BCP27]
   "Advancement of MIB specifications on the IETF Standards Track"
   [RFC2438] with special considerations about the advancement process
   for management data models.  However most IETF management data models
   never advance beyond Proposed Standard.

Note that MIB is just one data model.
What about IPFIX?
[Mehmet]: What would be your proposal? Should we put it into chapter 4.2?

First list the different data models in the intro of sectoin 4.0: MIB, IPFIX, RADIUS. Somehow, when I read it, because the second paragraph focuses on MIB, I misinterpreted that you were only covering MIB. Re-reading this, I missed the "s" at the end of the data models in:
   This section lists solutions for which information or data models
   have been standardized at the IETF

Then, for IPFIX, at least list it in accounting and performance management.

 
 

4.4.  Performance Management

Should we mention the IPPM perf metrics in here?

[Mehmet]: RFC4150 and BCP0108(RFC4148) are mentioned below. Which RFC do you mean?


 
. . .
 
   The RMON matrix group stores statistics for conversations between
   sets of two addresses.  The filter group allows packets to be matched
   by a filter equation.  These matched packets form a data stream that
   may be captured or may generate events.  The Packet Capture group
   allows packets to be captured after they flow through a channel.  The
   event group controls the generation and notification of events from
   this device.

Don't want to start a lengthy debate here, but my personal view is that RMON host, matrix are superseded by IPFIX: more granular, more flexible
At the minimum, we should mention IPFIX somewhere here. This comes back to my point before that MIBs are not the only data model at the IETF.

Indeed, this is worth a discussion. At the end, I think we may not skip RMON, which is still important for some folks.

The goal is certainly to skip RMON, but to explain RMON and IPFIX scopes.

I would like to suggest to describe this use case in IPFIX chapter in detail. Would like to provide text for it?

Not sure exactly where this text should be, but yes, I will provide some text.

Regards, Benoit.

 

. . .


--------------020700080509060107050200-- From bclaise@cisco.com Tue Dec 7 04:03:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19C13A694A for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 04:03:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.972 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.972 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.366, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VNpA4W+hUqjw for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 04:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from av-tac-bru.cisco.com (weird-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2433A6931 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 04:03:08 -0800 (PST) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB7Bjkh8025792; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:45:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.86.242.60] (che-vpn-cluster-2-60.cisco.com [10.86.242.60]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB7BjiOW007386; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:45:45 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4CFD6C13.8080401@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:04:51 -0800 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Al Morton References: <4CF59808.3050305@cisco.com> <201012010212.oB12C01X004027@alpd052.aldc.att.com> In-Reply-To: <201012010212.oB12C01X004027@alpd052.aldc.att.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020104050002020508060608" Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02 -> IPPM question X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 12:03:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020104050002020508060608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks a lot Al, as always. See inline. > Hi Benoit, > > I think it would be reasonable to say > " ... and reliability of Internet packet transfer services." > As we know, data delivery is not assured in IP. Actually, I have a problem with the term "services" So I like Dan's proposal: The IPPM working group has defined metrics for accurately measuring and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet data delivery. Regards, Benoit. > > I saw some other places where I could make some wording suggestions, > if I may: > > in section 3.10.1: > >> These metrics >> are designed for network operator use and provide >> unbiased quantitative measures of performance. > > suggest: > ... for use by network operators and their customers, and provide ... > > in section 3.10.1 again: > >> IETF IP >> Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in the >> industry and adopted by different SDOs such as ITU-T. > The ITU-T is not a good example here, they developed their own > metrics based one previous experience with X.25, Frame Relay, and ATM > networks, using their own performance model. There continue to be some > differences in the IPPM and ITU-T metrics for IP performance. > suggest: > ... and adopted by different SDOs such as the Metro Ethernet Forum. > > and > >> Following are >> examples of essential IPPM documents published as >> Proposed Standard: > A widely deployed IPPM RFC was omitted; there's a hell of a lot of > Performance Measurement with Periodic Streams out there, RFC 3432. > > in section 4.4: > >> IPPM working >> group has furthermore defined >> [ >> BCP108 ] "IP Performance >> Metrics (IPPM) Metrics Registry", which defines a >> registry for IP >> Performance Metrics >> [RFC4148 ]. The >> IANA-assigned registry contains >> an initial set of OBJECT IDENTITIES to currently defined >> metrics in >> the IETF as well as defines the rules for adding IP >> Performance >> Metrics that are defined in the future. > There is agreement that this registry is not used, and > there will hopefully be agreement in the near future to > withdraw the current registry and start from scratch with another > registry scheme, or use another solution to the problem such as the > information model you mentioned during the meeting in Beijing. > In any case, I think it would be best if RFC 4148 was omitted > in this memo. > > hope this helps, > Al > > At 07:34 PM 11/30/2010, Benoit Claise wrote: >> Hi Henk, Matt, Al, >> >> In >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02#section-3.10.1 >> , I see >> >> The IPPM working group has defined metrics for >> accurately measuring >> and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of >> Internet >> data delivery services. The metrics include >> connectivity, one-way >> delay and loss, round-trip delay and loss, delay variation, >> loss >> patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity, and >> link >> bandwidth capacity. >> >> I'm wondering if service is the right word. >> As you probably know, there are many discussions around: >> what's a >> service? >> what's an >> application? >> what's a >> protocol? >> >> I would prefer to use "service classes" instead of >> "services". However, I defer to you guys. >> Note: the IPPM charter speaks of "service classes" >> >> Regards, Benoit. --------------020104050002020508060608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks a lot Al, as always.

See inline.
Hi Benoit,

I think it would be reasonable to say
" ... and reliability of Internet packet transfer services."
As we know, data delivery is not assured in IP.
Actually, I have a problem with the term "services"
So I like Dan's proposal:
   The IPPM working group has defined metrics for accurately measuring
   and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet
   data delivery.


Regards, Benoit.

I saw some other places where I could make some wording suggestions,
if I may:

in section 3.10.1:

   These metrics
are designed for network operator use and provide
   unbiased quantitative measures of performance.

suggest:
... for use by network operators and their customers, and provide ...

in section 3.10.1 again:

   IETF IP
Performance Metrics have been introduced widely in the
   industry and adopted by different SDOs such as ITU-T.
The ITU-T is not a good example here, they developed their own
metrics based one previous experience with X.25, Frame Relay, and ATM
networks, using their own performance model. There continue to be some differences in the IPPM and ITU-T metrics for IP performance. 
suggest:
... and adopted by different SDOs such as the Metro Ethernet Forum.

and

   Following are
examples of essential IPPM documents published as
   Proposed Standard:
A widely deployed IPPM RFC was omitted; there's a hell of a lot of
Performance Measurement with Periodic Streams out there, RFC 3432.

in section 4.4:

   IPPM working
group has furthermore defined
[
BCP108] "IP Performance
   Metrics (IPPM) Metrics Registry", which defines a
registry for IP
   Performance Metrics
[RFC4148].  The
IANA-assigned registry contains
   an initial set of OBJECT IDENTITIES to currently defined
metrics in
   the IETF as well as defines the rules for adding IP
Performance
   Metrics that are defined in the future.
There is agreement that this registry is not used, and
there will hopefully be agreement in the near future to
withdraw the current registry and start from scratch with another
registry scheme, or use another solution to the problem such as the
information model you mentioned during the meeting in Beijing.
In any case, I think it would be best if RFC 4148 was omitted
in this memo.

hope this helps,
Al

At 07:34 PM 11/30/2010, Benoit Claise wrote:
Hi Henk, Matt, Al,

In http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ersue-opsawg-management-fw-02#section-3.10.1 , I see

   The IPPM working group has defined metrics for
accurately measuring
   and reporting the quality, performance, and reliability of
Internet
   data delivery services.  The metrics include
connectivity, one-way
   delay and loss, round-trip delay and loss, delay variation,
loss
   patterns, packet reordering, bulk transport capacity, and
link
   bandwidth capacity.

I'm wondering if service is the right word.
As you probably know, there are many discussions around:
        what's a
service?
        what's an
application?
        what's a
protocol?

I would prefer to use "service classes" instead of
"services". However, I defer to you guys. 
Note: the IPPM charter speaks of "service classes"

Regards, Benoit.

--------------020104050002020508060608-- From biermana@Brocade.com Tue Dec 7 12:08:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EC53A68AD for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:08:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X3dxKCn2KZVx for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com (mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com [67.231.144.122]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8493A689E for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000542 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id oB7K6tiF025720; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:09:34 -0800 Received: from hq1-exedge.brocade.com (hq1-exedge.brocade.com [144.49.141.11]) by mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com with ESMTP id t1qns84wd-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 07 Dec 2010 12:09:33 -0800 Received: from HQ1WP-EXHUB02.corp.brocade.com (10.70.38.14) by HQ1WP-EXEDGE02.corp.brocade.com (144.49.141.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:15:12 -0800 Received: from HQ1-EXCH01.corp.brocade.com ([fe80::6452:4b5c:f595:4894]) by HQ1WP-EXHUB02.corp.brocade.com ([fe80::e1f4:a4c8:696b:3780%10]) with mapi; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:09:33 -0800 From: Andy Bierman To: Wes Hardaker , Robert Story Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:09:31 -0800 Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt Thread-Index: AcuVnAx/BUjT7WBpTj2WwYwSkcTg3gArb6tw Message-ID: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.2.15, 1.0.148, 0.0.0000 definitions=2010-12-07_10:2010-12-07, 2010-12-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1010190000 definitions=main-1012070146 Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:08:11 -0000 I agree with Juergen that there should be just 1 style of encoding. Since SNMP PDUs are binary, there doesn't seem to be much point in a human-readable encoding for floats. I do not see any need for Float128 either. Are there opensource implementations like there are for Float32 and Float64? Are there any guidelines for MIB authors as to which flavor of numeric data type they should use? What are the use cases for 32 bit, 64 bit, and 128 bit floats? Andy -----Original Message----- From: opsawg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Wes Hardaker Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 3:19 PM To: Robert Story Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt >>>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:50:17 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder said: JS> Having two ways to represent the same data does not seem to be helpful JS> unless there is a strong technical reason for supporting two formats JS> and then it should be explained how to choose between them. So unless JS> someone brings up a technical argument, I vote for one representation JS> of floating point numbers in MIB modules. Different TCs are useful for different reasons. Some may want text representations sent because that's what they're parsing out of /proc on the agent side so why convert it at all when it's going to be unconverted at the management side? We're already defining a new format in the first place that differs from the first float implementation. --=20 Wes Hardaker Cobham Analytic Solutions _______________________________________________ OPSAWG mailing list OPSAWG@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Dec 7 13:38:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F9228C0F3 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:38:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.433 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.433 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3fv7f6hCHc2 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E653A6893 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:38:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=epnaCRXxjKar0PqmxaaDxuCv5Xh81XaRApU6zK1AyZbj+9SJ+d7LphDhWad9F++y; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.60.5.191] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PQ5G3-0006Vu-7p for opsawg@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:39:35 -0500 Message-ID: <001001cb9657$577fb720$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local><20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:40:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfbcbe070060a7b60d6117822dd40f9afdd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.60.5.191 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 21:38:16 -0000 Hi - > From: "Andy Bierman" > To: "Wes Hardaker" ; "Robert Story" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 12:09 PM > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt ... > I do not see any need for Float128 either. I just included it because Juergen suggested it in his message that said that it would be nice to have an I-D. My suspicion is that in MIB-ish situations, the primary value of Float128 would be in the larger exponent range, rather than the increased precision. But if no one has a use for it, I'd be happy to drop it, if doing so will get this document through the process faster. It would be easy enough to add it to a -bis version in the future when someone runs into a use case. > Are there opensource implementations like there > are for Float32 and Float64? If you have an opensource C / C++ compiler that supports "double double", you'll probably have Float128 in software. The last time I dug into compilers at this level was over a decade ago, but I think a good place for the curious to look would be in the source code for the run-time libraries that come with your favorite open-source C compiler. > Are there any guidelines for MIB authors as to which flavor of > numeric data type they should use? What are the use cases for > 32 bit, 64 bit, and 128 bit floats? That's a rather large topic. An introduction to some of the issues is available at http://www.validlab.com/goldberg/paper.pdf I think such a discussion would belong in an RFC 4181bis, since it also fits in with the whole signed/unsigned/32-bit/64-bit integer discussion, as well as the use of UNITS and scaled fixed-point representations. Randy From Robert.Story@cobham.com Tue Dec 7 13:51:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7AE3A69B9 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.975 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.975 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.541, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2LMZICBGqsf for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245873A69B1 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB7LrJ35026886; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 15:53:19 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB7LrJH0031611; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 15:53:19 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([76.122.68.129]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:53:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:53:11 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Andy Bierman Message-ID: <20101207165311.71a9409a@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/gOIGJjgbxTKw79LNPsL3Nf2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2010 21:53:19.0650 (UTC) FILETIME=[29216020:01CB9659] Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 21:51:58 -0000 --Sig_/gOIGJjgbxTKw79LNPsL3Nf2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:09:31 -0800 Andy wrote: AB> Since SNMP PDUs are binary, there doesn't seem to be much point in AB> a human-readable encoding for floats. But the end result is displayed to humans... Using that logic, we could argue with doing away with DisplayString as well.. :-) There doesn't seem to be support in the wg for it though, so I'll just repeat myself one last time and then be quiet. I think people are going to continue to use strings to represent floats, and it would be nice if they could all use the same format. A float TC mib is the perfect place to define that format. Ok, I'm done. AB> Are there any guidelines for MIB authors as to which flavor of AB> numeric data type they should use? What are the use cases for AB> 32 bit, 64 bit, and 128 bit floats? I was thinking this too. If we do keep all 3 sizes, I also wondered if we shouldn't do something like was done for the INET-ADDRESS-MIB (type/generic/specific TCs), so that mib authors could use a type/generic pair, and implementations could use the appropriate size. --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/gOIGJjgbxTKw79LNPsL3Nf2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz+rM4ACgkQ7/fVLLY1mnhJ3wCeIH1McFkgr+ka1YBkXDSf/yXz IcwAn2fFLj2HqY8GRPDd6nLqRy6exYbx =rxLD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/gOIGJjgbxTKw79LNPsL3Nf2-- From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Tue Dec 7 15:28:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566D43A68AD for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 15:28:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.944, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s8261do1BjQf for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABD83A67FF for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 15:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.49]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD6AC0036; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 00:29:36 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e7fRh-x8w1pB; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 00:29:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E7BC0037; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 00:29:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id E91E215E3390; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 00:29:33 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 00:29:33 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Andy Bierman Message-ID: <20101207232933.GA15185@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Wes Hardaker , Robert Story , "opsawg@ietf.org" References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Robert Story Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 23:28:15 -0000 On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 12:09:31PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote: > I do not see any need for Float128 either. I believe it is easy to define all three binary IEEE 754 floats; just doing two instead of all three seems an arbitrary choice. > Are there opensource implementations like there are for Float32 and > Float64? I think so. C99 has long double which on some platforms is a Float128 (but not on all). Gcc also seems to have __float128. Apparently, XDR (RFC 4506) has them as well. > Are there any guidelines for MIB authors as to which flavor of > numeric data type they should use? What are the use cases for 32 > bit, 64 bit, and 128 bit floats? The floats differ in precision and size of the exponent and as a consequence in the size of the encoding. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From biermana@Brocade.com Tue Dec 7 16:12:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6CE23A6881 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:12:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.950, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bUd6sTawTWJs for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com (mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com [67.231.144.122]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22553A687A for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000542 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id oB807JnP011842; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:13:51 -0800 Received: from hq1-exedge.brocade.com (hq1-exedge.brocade.com [144.49.140.11]) by mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com with ESMTP id t1wt0g1j1-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:13:51 -0800 Received: from HQ1WP-EXHUB01.corp.brocade.com (10.70.36.14) by HQ1WP-EXEDGE01.corp.brocade.com (144.49.140.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:14:45 -0800 Received: from HQ1-EXCH01.corp.brocade.com ([fe80::6452:4b5c:f595:4894]) by HQ1WP-EXHUB01.corp.brocade.com ([::1]) with mapi; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:13:50 -0800 From: Andy Bierman To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:13:49 -0800 Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt Thread-Index: AcuWZp85GGWDuh3xTyOVeTWs56LuJwABPqUw Message-ID: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> <20101207232933.GA15185@elstar.local> In-Reply-To: <20101207232933.GA15185@elstar.local> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.2.15, 1.0.148, 0.0.0000 definitions=2010-12-07_12:2010-12-08, 2010-12-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=2 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1010190000 definitions=main-1012070200 Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Robert Story Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 00:12:28 -0000 Adding TCs to the standards track without any use cases seems like a bad idea to me. I am not suggesting we revisit the Counter64 debates. That led to the logic that a 'rule' is needed to tell implementers which data type to use (i.e., wrap in < hour: use Counter64). I can imagine WGs defining lots of numbers as Float128 "just in case" it is ever needed. This has an impact on agent performance, assuming the agent can even support Float128 at all. In NETCONF, we got rid of floating point numbers since they are rarely needed and not commonly supported in routers and switches. I think the decimal64 data type is a good compromise (fixed point). Andy -----Original Message----- From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 3:30 PM To: Andy Bierman Cc: Wes Hardaker; Robert Story; opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 12:09:31PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote: =20 > I do not see any need for Float128 either. I believe it is easy to define all three binary IEEE 754 floats; just doing two instead of all three seems an arbitrary choice. > Are there opensource implementations like there are for Float32 and > Float64? I think so. C99 has long double which on some platforms is a Float128 (but not on all). Gcc also seems to have __float128. Apparently, XDR (RFC 4506) has them as well. > Are there any guidelines for MIB authors as to which flavor of > numeric data type they should use? What are the use cases for 32 > bit, 64 bit, and 128 bit floats? The floats differ in precision and size of the exponent and as a consequence in the size of the encoding. /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Dec 7 17:58:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FDE3A68C5 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 17:58:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.433 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.433 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ezUKf5pfS9Sx for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 17:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8DD3A68A7 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 17:58:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=fQSk/4FPJZ4BNCmH6VzMCXAYLOb8er9hbY2tiOvQpIeavBDvIU17rjCm9G1pIQfw; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.60.5.191] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PQ9JX-0002JC-06 for opsawg@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:59:27 -0500 Message-ID: <000b01cb967b$a5dc1980$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com><20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local><20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com><20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local><20101207232933.GA15185@elstar.local> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 18:00:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb11f7cad16cf296b2076bd65fe0915654350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.60.5.191 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 01:58:02 -0000 Hi - > From: "Andy Bierman" > To: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > Cc: ; "Robert Story" > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:13 PM > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > > Adding TCs to the standards track without any use cases seems like a > bad idea to me. draft-ietf-ipfix-psamp-mib-02.txt is an example of a use case. Whether it is a good example or a bad one is another question. > I am not suggesting we revisit the Counter64 debates. > That led to the logic that a 'rule' is needed to tell implementers > which data type to use (i.e., wrap in < hour: use Counter64). > I can imagine WGs defining lots of numbers as Float128 "just in case" > it is ever needed. This has an impact on agent performance, > assuming the agent can even support Float128 at all. Which will it be? If you want this (or some other) document to provide "advice", the nature of the IETF is that that advice will end up being what looks like a bunch of rules, and those rules will almost certainly be both over-engineered and short-sighted, like the rules for integer types in SMI. Codifying "common sense" is a notoriously difficult thing. I think the performance argument is really a strawman. If something is in a MIB as a floating type, that's presumably because that is the natural representation for the information, and consequently that is the most likely internal form anyway. That's a lot cheaper than converting it to a human-readable character string, or even converting it from an interal float to a scaled integer for SNMP. > In NETCONF, we got rid of floating point numbers since they > are rarely needed and not commonly supported in routers and switches. > I think the decimal64 data type is a good compromise (fixed point). Fixed point is the wrong answer for data with a potentially large dynamic range. Floating point is the wrong answer for data, for example, that is truly decimal / can be handled adequately by re-thinking the UNITS. Maybe we need a reference to Knuth vol. 2 chapter 4, though I'd hope anyone writing code would be aware of these CS basics and could evaluate the trade-offs. Randy From sob@harvard.edu Wed Dec 8 18:52:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7633A69AD for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:52:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.545, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OjUn3FO9+C+a for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from newdev.eecs.harvard.edu (newdev.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2B23A6816 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by newdev.eecs.harvard.edu (Postfix, from userid 501) id C72466F5CEB; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:53:45 -0500 (EST) To: opsawg@ietf.org Message-Id: <20101209025345.C72466F5CEB@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:53:45 -0500 (EST) From: sob@harvard.edu (Scott O. Bradner) Subject: [OPSAWG] draft-presuhn-floats as WG doc X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 02:52:18 -0000 there has not been a dearth of discussion about draft-presuhn-floats the request was made for the chairs to ask if this ID should be a WG doc and there were some people who expressed support before the chairs got around to asking somewhat redundantly, should the WG adopt draft-presuhn-floats as a WG document? Scott From ietf@quittek.at Wed Dec 8 18:58:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA4C3A69B2 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:58:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g-edmD2ZCmDK for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE4E3A69AD for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.0.92] (mito.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.39]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LeSQX-1QGh4M2d0n-00pqJT; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 03:59:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20101209025345.C72466F5CEB@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> References: <20101209025345.C72466F5CEB@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <332F5738-8318-4C71-BEAC-67379B4D5DC7@quittek.at> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Juergen Quittek Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:58:46 -0500 To: Scott O. Bradner X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:KQrLaUur7vLTGjqC+hBtBNjGE05FTQpICXZzM8jpyDT V8kLSG3h6cPjeM3scj/+ssJzZSxN9devUS+S+lIPvjO0u0N8KA LIzYBjozUC0vvkVSANmKQZW7Uvt5BzDjHAo31bVFRZPaK81OwZ wzD6LeoZQLLyr0vmHruW9POJVRSmcUFTsf0k2hqtZ+Yq+MsD5e 3O3CIJ3UUifj8KN7bUU/w== Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-presuhn-floats as WG doc X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 02:58:03 -0000 I support this. Juergen Q. Am 08.12.2010 um 21:53 schrieb Scott O. Bradner: > > there has not been a dearth of discussion about draft-presuhn-floats > > the request was made for the chairs to ask if this ID should be a WG > doc and there were some people who expressed support before the > chairs got around to asking > > somewhat redundantly, should the WG adopt draft-presuhn-floats as > a WG document? > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg From Robert.Story@cobham.com Wed Dec 8 22:28:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4753A69F4 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:28:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vGnBPRxWZk5c for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30873A6A0A for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB96T1ol013490; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:29:01 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB96T04h019680; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:29:00 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([76.122.68.129]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 9 Dec 2010 01:28:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 01:28:49 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Juergen Quittek Message-ID: <20101209012849.6e7322e4@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: <332F5738-8318-4C71-BEAC-67379B4D5DC7@quittek.at> References: <20101209025345.C72466F5CEB@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> <332F5738-8318-4C71-BEAC-67379B4D5DC7@quittek.at> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/XscYj6LFLZaY0LCSEdMB7yy"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Dec 2010 06:28:59.0839 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D554CF0:01CB976A] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-presuhn-floats as WG doc X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 06:28:23 -0000 --Sig_/XscYj6LFLZaY0LCSEdMB7yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:58:46 -0500 Juergen wrote: JQ> I support this. +1 --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/XscYj6LFLZaY0LCSEdMB7yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk0AdyoACgkQ7/fVLLY1mnjacwCcCUrUGhk3sxa7aIIGdazmB1T9 fhQAnRlCtwjwHWm6XbOj1fFagYkgxJVW =CCQn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/XscYj6LFLZaY0LCSEdMB7yy-- From biermana@Brocade.com Thu Dec 9 00:08:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0653A6A79 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:08:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.993 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.993 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.894, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mtUKC+2YYJce for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com (mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com [67.231.144.122]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B293A6A6C for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000542 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id oB98772a017565; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:10:23 -0800 Received: from hq1-exedge.brocade.com (hq1-exedge.brocade.com [144.49.141.11]) by mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com with ESMTP id t2qy1g2hd-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 09 Dec 2010 00:10:22 -0800 Received: from HQ1WP-EXHUB01.corp.brocade.com (10.70.36.14) by HQ1WP-EXEDGE02.corp.brocade.com (144.49.141.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:15:59 -0800 Received: from HQ1-EXCH01.corp.brocade.com ([fe80::6452:4b5c:f595:4894]) by HQ1WP-EXHUB01.corp.brocade.com ([::1]) with mapi; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:10:22 -0800 From: Andy Bierman To: "Scott O. Bradner" , "opsawg@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:10:20 -0800 Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] draft-presuhn-floats as WG doc Thread-Index: AcuXTFApR9ArccPHQxCauc7FJ/KOiwAK7BaA Message-ID: References: <20101209025345.C72466F5CEB@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> In-Reply-To: <20101209025345.C72466F5CEB@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.2.15, 1.0.148, 0.0.0000 definitions=2010-12-09_04:2010-12-08, 2010-12-09, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1010190000 definitions=main-1012090000 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-presuhn-floats as WG doc X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:08:57 -0000 Hi Scott, Yes -- it's almost done, so why not? ;-) Andy -----Original Message----- From: opsawg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Scott O. Bradner Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 6:54 PM To: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: [OPSAWG] draft-presuhn-floats as WG doc there has not been a dearth of discussion about draft-presuhn-floats the request was made for the chairs to ask if this ID should be a WG doc and there were some people who expressed support before the chairs got around to asking somewhat redundantly, should the WG adopt draft-presuhn-floats as a WG document? Scott _______________________________________________ OPSAWG mailing list OPSAWG@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg From biermana@Brocade.com Thu Dec 9 00:14:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9858A3A6A79 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:14:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.944 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.944 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.845, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DRTnLxjeWr6C for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com (mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com [67.231.144.122]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649103A6A76 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000542 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id oB98ClnG027308; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:15:43 -0800 Received: from hq1-exedge.brocade.com (hq1-exedge.brocade.com [144.49.141.11]) by mx0a-000f0801.pphosted.com with ESMTP id t2qy1g2k5-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 09 Dec 2010 00:15:43 -0800 Received: from HQ1WP-EXHUB01.corp.brocade.com (10.70.36.14) by HQ1WP-EXEDGE02.corp.brocade.com (144.49.141.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:21:20 -0800 Received: from HQ1-EXCH01.corp.brocade.com ([fe80::6452:4b5c:f595:4894]) by HQ1WP-EXHUB01.corp.brocade.com ([::1]) with mapi; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:15:42 -0800 From: Andy Bierman To: Randy Presuhn , "opsawg@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:15:40 -0800 Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt Thread-Index: AcuWe48ACqMsmTaMTauVNsDPm4dA+wA/QJGA Message-ID: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com><20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local><20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com><20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local><20101207232933.GA15185@elstar.local> <000b01cb967b$a5dc1980$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000b01cb967b$a5dc1980$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.2.15, 1.0.148, 0.0.0000 definitions=2010-12-09_04:2010-12-08, 2010-12-09, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1010190000 definitions=main-1012090002 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:14:16 -0000 Hi Randy, I think all 3 TCs (32, 64, 128) are fine. The usage rule should be the same as for other numbers... Use the smallest size number that you need. MIB reviewers should check Float128 objects to see if Float64 could be used instead. Andy -----Original Message----- From: opsawg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Randy Presuhn Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 6:00 PM To: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt Hi - > From: "Andy Bierman" > To: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > Cc: ; "Robert Story" > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:13 PM > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > > Adding TCs to the standards track without any use cases seems like a > bad idea to me. draft-ietf-ipfix-psamp-mib-02.txt is an example of a use case. Whether it is a good example or a bad one is another question. =20 > I am not suggesting we revisit the Counter64 debates. > That led to the logic that a 'rule' is needed to tell implementers > which data type to use (i.e., wrap in < hour: use Counter64). > I can imagine WGs defining lots of numbers as Float128 "just in case" > it is ever needed. This has an impact on agent performance, > assuming the agent can even support Float128 at all. Which will it be? If you want this (or some other) document to provide "advice", the nature of the IETF is that that advice will end up being what looks like a bunch of rules, and those rules will almost certainly be both over-engineered and short-sighted, like the rules for integer types in SMI. Codifying "common sense" is a notoriously difficult thing. I think the performance argument is really a strawman. If something is in a MIB as a floating type, that's presumably because that is the natural representation for the information, and consequently that is the most likely internal form anyway. That's a lot cheaper than converting it to a human-readable character string, or even=20 converting it from an interal float to a scaled integer for SNMP. > In NETCONF, we got rid of floating point numbers since they > are rarely needed and not commonly supported in routers and switches. > I think the decimal64 data type is a good compromise (fixed point). Fixed point is the wrong answer for data with a potentially large dynamic range. Floating point is the wrong answer for data, for example, that is truly decimal / can be handled adequately by re-thinking the UNITS. Maybe we need a reference to Knuth vol. 2 chapter 4, though I'd hope anyone writing code would be aware of these CS basics and could evaluate the trade-offs. Randy _______________________________________________ OPSAWG mailing list OPSAWG@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg From bertietf@bwijnen.net Thu Dec 9 00:29:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72E53A6A90 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:29:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.493 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.493 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id otG1H-nVGq6L for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from postgirl.ripe.net (postgirl.ipv6.ripe.net [IPv6:2001:610:240:11::c100:1342]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764E33A6A8C for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayeaye.ripe.net ([193.0.23.5]) by postgirl.ripe.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PQbuG-0003id-6o; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 09:31:17 +0100 Received: from dog.ripe.net ([193.0.1.217] helo=guest107.guestnet.ripe.net) by ayeaye.ripe.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PQbuF-0001q9-UJ; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 09:31:15 +0100 Message-ID: <4D0093D5.5030403@bwijnen.net> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 09:31:17 +0100 From: "Bert (IETF) Wijnen" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Scott O. Bradner" References: <20101209025345.C72466F5CEB@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> In-Reply-To: <20101209025345.C72466F5CEB@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Signature: 86ab03e524994f79ca2c75a176445dd4565fd7abd2af88f440cd8aa271247f9a X-RIPE-Spam-Level: -- X-RIPE-Spam-Report: Spam Total Points: -2.9 points pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------ -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-RIPE-Signature: 86ab03e524994f79ca2c75a176445dd4565fd7abd2af88f440cd8aa271247f9a Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-presuhn-floats as WG doc X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:29:51 -0000 On 12/9/10 3:53 AM, Scott O. Bradner wrote: > there has not been a dearth of discussion about draft-presuhn-floats > > the request was made for the chairs to ask if this ID should be a WG > doc and there were some people who expressed support before the > chairs got around to asking > > somewhat redundantly, should the WG adopt draft-presuhn-floats as > a WG document? > YES Bert > Scott > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg > From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Thu Dec 9 00:35:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C7F3A6A86 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:35:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.929, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XFwsiEu6+MCT for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:35:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0613A3A6A7F for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 00:35:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.48]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5EFC0021; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:36:45 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jC-Pq+xDcDiC; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:36:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.iuhb02.iu-bremen.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCF3C0005; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:36:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 40AAD15E755F; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:36:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:36:43 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Andy Bierman Message-ID: <20101209083643.GC20327@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Randy Presuhn , "opsawg@ietf.org" References: <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> <20101207232933.GA15185@elstar.local> <000b01cb967b$a5dc1980$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:35:18 -0000 On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 12:15:40AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote: > The usage rule should be the same as for other numbers... > Use the smallest size number that you need. > MIB reviewers should check Float128 objects to see if Float64 > could be used instead. I think it makes sense to include some discussion in the document that helps MIB authors to decide whether the use of floating point numbers is a good choice. Right now, the document says an exhaustive discussion is beyond the scope of this document. While an exhaustive discussion is beyond scope, I think some discussion is in scope. Here is an attempt to rewrite the last paragraph of section 1, based on contributions to the mailing list discussion: OLD: The selection of a floating-point format involves many considerations and trade-offs, and an exhaustive discussion of these is beyond the scope of this menu. However, one consideration peculiar to the SNMP environment bears mentioning here: the SNMP "lexicographical" ordering for INDEX objects using these textual conventions will simply be that of the octet strings corresponding to the floating point representations, which will not in general reflect the numerical ordering of the corresponding floating point values. NEW: The selection of a floating-point format involves many considerations and trade-offs. The following list highlights some of the issues to consider: - Floating point numbers are useful if the number space needs to cover a large and dynamic range. For number spaces with a limited range, fixed point numbers are typically more efficient and more precise. - Floating point numbers are the typically the wrong answer for data that is truly decimal / can be handled adequately by re-thinking the units and representing scaled numbers as integers. - The SNMP "lexicographical" ordering for INDEX objects using these floating point textual conventions will simply be that of the octet strings corresponding to the floating point representations, which will not in general reflect the numerical ordering of the corresponding floating point values. - Software on embedded systems may not have floating point number support, which can complicate the implementation of MIB objects using floating point numbers. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Dec 9 10:09:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14AA328C136 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:09:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.207, BAYES_40=-0.185, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yDzDX98JPOF2 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 040FE28C0FB for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:09:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=S+SxaaAj27t2hJ+TdEz12JuL73zF4w1GFmfGEtBysF97E8O6LnKjGr576yW/t4fX; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.60.5.191] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PQkxC-0006Na-85 for opsawg@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 13:10:54 -0500 Message-ID: <001301cb97cc$8b903f00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00c501cb92aa$4b914ba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com><20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local><20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com><20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local><20101207232933.GA15185@elstar.local> <000b01cb967b$a5dc1980$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:11:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb457cedf8c0cee690ee3d4dfbe4784e2a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.60.5.191 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 18:09:26 -0000 Hi - > From: "Andy Bierman" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:15 AM > Subject: RE: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt ... > I think all 3 TCs (32, 64, 128) are fine. > The usage rule should be the same as for other numbers... > Use the smallest size number that you need. > MIB reviewers should check Float128 objects to see if Float64 > could be used instead. ... I'll add a (brief and explicitly non-exhaustive) section of usage hints, since the questions that came up in this thread seem surprisingly persistent. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Dec 9 10:11:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2D928C136 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:11:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.031 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.402, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 40+qdwFyM7Gx for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E973A69A1 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:11:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=N+nG8KNEsHpolVeEspIc0KxKye5s7WYEInIq06Yb4oGy08eBAEymO2juP0Vhahgd; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.60.5.191] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PQkz1-0006UA-Qa for opsawg@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 13:12:48 -0500 Message-ID: <001a01cb97cc$cf3b8ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20101205084420.63ebb996@sparta.com> <20101205135439.GB6663@elstar.local> <20101206093733.58c23bcd@sparta.com> <20101206155017.GB9666@elstar.local> <20101207232933.GA15185@elstar.local> <000b01cb967b$a5dc1980$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20101209083643.GC20327@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:13:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb79c92fdaf1e23ceabd2d67ef7b740879350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.60.5.191 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 18:11:43 -0000 Hi - > From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > To: "Andy Bierman" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:36 AM > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-01.txt > > On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 12:15:40AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > The usage rule should be the same as for other numbers... > > Use the smallest size number that you need. > > MIB reviewers should check Float128 objects to see if Float64 > > could be used instead. > > I think it makes sense to include some discussion in the document that > helps MIB authors to decide whether the use of floating point numbers > is a good choice. Right now, the document says an exhaustive > discussion is beyond the scope of this document. While an exhaustive > discussion is beyond scope, I think some discussion is in scope. Here > is an attempt to rewrite the last paragraph of section 1, based on > contributions to the mailing list discussion: > > OLD: > > The selection of a floating-point format involves many considerations > and trade-offs, and an exhaustive discussion of these is beyond the > scope of this menu. However, one consideration peculiar to the SNMP > environment bears mentioning here: the SNMP "lexicographical" > ordering for INDEX objects using these textual conventions will > simply be that of the octet strings corresponding to the floating > point representations, which will not in general reflect the > numerical ordering of the corresponding floating point values. > > NEW: > > The selection of a floating-point format involves many considerations > and trade-offs. The following list highlights some of the issues to > consider: > > - Floating point numbers are useful if the number space needs to cover > a large and dynamic range. For number spaces with a limited range, > fixed point numbers are typically more efficient and more precise. > > - Floating point numbers are the typically the wrong answer for data > that is truly decimal / can be handled adequately by re-thinking the > units and representing scaled numbers as integers. > > - The SNMP "lexicographical" ordering for INDEX objects using these > floating point textual conventions will simply be that of the octet > strings corresponding to the floating point representations, which > will not in general reflect the numerical ordering of the > corresponding floating point values. > > - Software on embedded systems may not have floating point number > support, which can complicate the implementation of MIB objects > using floating point numbers. Took the words right out of my mouth. :-) This will do nicely. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Dec 9 11:55:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7473A6B4F for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:55:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.302, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TXYD3-mwvQHo for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0473A6BB0 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:55:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=VBE7x/nvmcLJMbiUt/k/J8ZHKfZFSHb0aUDF/iIAY+Z3X+z3Sg7nbGZE/O4c2fYW; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.60.5.191] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PQmbn-0003fS-Bz for opsawg@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 14:56:55 -0500 Message-ID: <007401cb97db$5b532a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:57:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfbb325e06300fcb33d4eba92fd2538aa1f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.60.5.191 Subject: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-03.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:55:26 -0000 Hi - Updated with text based on recent discussion about usage guidelines. Randy > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 11:30 AM > Subject: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-03.txt > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > Title : Textual Conventions for the Representation of Floating-Point Numbers > Author(s) : R. Presuhn > Filename : draft-presuhn-floats-03.txt > Pages : 8 > Date : 2010-12-09 > > This memo defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module > containing textual conventions (TCs) to represent floating-point > numbers. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-presuhn-floats-03.txt ... From Robert.Story@cobham.com Thu Dec 9 12:40:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D9F28C138 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 12:40:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.058 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.058 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.542, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z+k4QhqFe5JC for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 12:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A35728C133 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 12:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id oB9Kg29v023490; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 14:42:02 -0600 Received: from mailbin2.ads.sparta.com (mailbin.sparta.com [157.185.85.6]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oB9Kg3ip015583; Thu, 9 Dec 2010 14:42:03 -0600 Received: from sparta.com ([76.122.68.129]) by mailbin2.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 9 Dec 2010 15:42:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 15:41:59 -0500 From: Robert Story To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20101209154159.0ebbd069@sparta.com> In-Reply-To: <007401cb97db$5b532a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <007401cb97db$5b532a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Organization: SPARTA X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/X4ao61bEUAvSLukyatX4XvP"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Dec 2010 20:42:03.0005 (UTC) FILETIME=[88E0A2D0:01CB97E1] Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-03.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:40:34 -0000 --Sig_/X4ao61bEUAvSLukyatX4XvP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:57:48 -0800 Randy wrote: RP> Updated with text based on recent discussion about RP> usage guidelines. I like the new text. I do wonder about two things. First, should the trade-off discussion be in the introduction? I'd think it would belong later in the document, specifically, after section 2. Also, I think the wording is a little confusing. This: The selection of a floating-point format involves many considerations and trade-offs. reads like it's the start of a discussion of how the decision was made to use IEEE 754 as the basis for the TCs, when it's really advice for MIB designers. Maybe: The selection of which floating-point TC to use in a MIB module involves many considerations and trade-offs. Second, while most of the tradeoffs affect MIB designers, I think the warning about index ordering will likely be a source of confusion for the end users. We all know what the chances are that they'll read the RFC. I suggest that we add the warning to the TC descriptions. There have been other objects defined that include potential issues with using a TC as in index (e.g. InetAddress, though admittedly that is pointing out a protocol issue, not an end-user issue). Just a thought. --=20 Robert Story Senior Software Engineer SPARTA (dba Cobham Analytic Soloutions) --Sig_/X4ao61bEUAvSLukyatX4XvP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk0BPxkACgkQ7/fVLLY1mng3igCfTDUS4AhDpNQwt2nFgTMt3j94 xLgAnjqiH8/vJ9srWMoCwhchc0qhEYLp =TZEC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/X4ao61bEUAvSLukyatX4XvP-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Sun Dec 12 08:20:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F713A6DDF for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:20:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.178 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.178 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.904, BAYES_20=-0.74, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7gdMAtNgKooQ for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB953A6DE2 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:20:19 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=cAc7uNzgyxy19WzzKrBi4+6bLCKOwrcYo1+J7/A1wWChYyUoQeaUR/I+BPx7mW7w; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.60.5.191] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PRogM-0003i3-9H; Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:21:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000601cb9a18$d2fed600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: =?utf-8?Q?Martin_J._D=C3=BCrst?= References: <4D04C355.1050605@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:22:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb00d5bc374c974c8e3854b0c6487965b3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.60.5.191 Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Your floating-point draft (was: Fwd: [ruby-core:33638] [Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2) X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:20:22 -0000 Hi Martin - Thanks. I mentioned the Goldberg article (probably with a different link) in the mailing list discussion, but had decided to use the older Knuth citation since it is more basic and covers the key issues. Do you think both are necessary? I have to admit that I continue to be surprised by the number of CS practitioners who seem to have forgotten their "Introduction to Data Types" lectures. :-) Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 4:43 AM > Subject: Your floating-point draft (was: Fwd: [ruby-core:33638] [Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2) > > Hello Randy, > > [please feel free to forward as you see fit] > > I saw you are working on a draft for floating-point number > representation in SNMP. For the Ruby programming language, about once a > week we see a bug report about floating numbers. Below is the standard > answer that is sent to the bug reporters. This is then usually followed > by a "stupid me" message from the bug reporter. > > I guess it might make sense to put a few pointers to material such as > the stuff referenced below into your draft to avoid some people getting > too surprised. > > Regards, Martin. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [ruby-core:33638] [Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in > 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2 > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:12:52 +0900 > From: Yui NARUSE > Reply-To: ruby-core@ruby-lang.org > To: ruby-core@ruby-lang.org > > Issue #4135 has been updated by Yui NARUSE. > > > Learn floating point numbers. > > What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic > http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html > http://wiki.github.com/rdp/ruby_tutorials_core/ruby-talk-faq#floats_imprecise > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point#Accuracy_problems > ---------------------------------------- > http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/show/4135 > > ---------------------------------------- > http://redmine.ruby-lang.org > > From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Mon Dec 13 01:39:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F953A6842 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 01:39:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.453, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tVjoHx18Pls4 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 01:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7610F3A6841 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 01:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id oBD9ecrw023636 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:40:38 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 681b_3170_0ac70526_069d_11e0_9fb1_001d096c566a; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:40:38 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:39531) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:40:38 +0900 Message-ID: <4D05E9FE.10808@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:40:14 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4D04C355.1050605@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <000601cb9a18$d2fed600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000601cb9a18$d2fed600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 05:03:42 -0800 Cc: opsawg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Your floating-point draft X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:39:07 -0000 Hello Randy, On 2010/12/13 1:22, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi Martin - > > Thanks. I mentioned the Goldberg article (probably with a different > link) in the mailing list discussion, but had decided to use the > older Knuth citation since it is more basic and covers the key > issues. Do you think both are necessary? I think in these days and ages, having a reference that can be reached by a link (rather than by grabbing a book from the bookshelf) can be very helpful. Also, Knuth doesn't talk about IEEE, at least not in the Second Edition that you cite and that I have in front of me. So I would be inclined to cite both. > I have to admit that I continue to be surprised by the number of > CS practitioners who seem to have forgotten their "Introduction > to Data Types" lectures. :-) Well, yes. But we learn 2+2=4 at age 2 or 3, which means it's deeply ingrained into our brain, whereas the floating point stuff is just a thin veneer on top. That may explain that people get easily confused by "almost" whole numbers. Regards, Martin. > Randy > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martin J. Dürst" >> To: "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 4:43 AM >> Subject: Your floating-point draft (was: Fwd: [ruby-core:33638] [Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2) >> >> Hello Randy, >> >> [please feel free to forward as you see fit] >> >> I saw you are working on a draft for floating-point number >> representation in SNMP. For the Ruby programming language, about once a >> week we see a bug report about floating numbers. Below is the standard >> answer that is sent to the bug reporters. This is then usually followed >> by a "stupid me" message from the bug reporter. >> >> I guess it might make sense to put a few pointers to material such as >> the stuff referenced below into your draft to avoid some people getting >> too surprised. >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [ruby-core:33638] [Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in >> 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2 >> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:12:52 +0900 >> From: Yui NARUSE >> Reply-To: ruby-core@ruby-lang.org >> To: ruby-core@ruby-lang.org >> >> Issue #4135 has been updated by Yui NARUSE. >> >> >> Learn floating point numbers. >> >> What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic >> http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html >> http://wiki.github.com/rdp/ruby_tutorials_core/ruby-talk-faq#floats_imprecise >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point#Accuracy_problems >> ---------------------------------------- >> http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/show/4135 >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> http://redmine.ruby-lang.org >> >> > > > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From biermana@Brocade.com Mon Dec 13 08:18:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE34B28C115 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:18:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.119, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t7hBpM2S9SpU for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-000f0801.pphosted.com (mx0b-000f0801.pphosted.com [67.231.152.113]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D50F28C114 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000700 [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000f0801.pphosted.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id oBDGGZR1019167; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:19:51 -0800 Received: from hq1-exedge.brocade.com (hq1-exedge.brocade.com [144.49.140.11]) by mx0b-000f0801.pphosted.com with ESMTP id t5pnr008u-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:19:51 -0800 Received: from HQ1WP-EXHUB01.corp.brocade.com (10.70.36.14) by HQ1WP-EXEDGE01.corp.brocade.com (144.49.140.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:20:37 -0800 Received: from HQ1-EXCH01.corp.brocade.com ([fe80::6452:4b5c:f595:4894]) by HQ1WP-EXHUB01.corp.brocade.com ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:19:49 -0800 From: Andy Bierman To: Randy Presuhn , =?utf-8?B?TWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdA==?= Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:19:48 -0800 Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Your floating-point draft (was: Fwd: [ruby-core:33638] [Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2) Thread-Index: AcuaGMHN9N48o9L4TTK2X8b5PL8k3QAyHSqw Message-ID: References: <4D04C355.1050605@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <000601cb9a18$d2fed600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000601cb9a18$d2fed600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.2.15, 1.0.148, 0.0.0000 definitions=2010-12-13_07:2010-12-13, 2010-12-13, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=2 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1010190000 definitions=main-1012130101 Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Your floating-point draft (was: Fwd: [ruby-core:33638] [Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2) X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org 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ZWRtaW5lLnJ1YnktbGFuZy5vcmcNCj4NCj4NCg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KT1BTQVdHIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KT1BTQVdHQGlldGYu b3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL29wc2F3Zw0K From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Dec 13 11:00:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB1E28C0E9 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:00:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hx-CRYZnrCyq for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2613A6DEB for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:00:42 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=XRO8TIOkSC5WX9uV85Y81CjRlziOdpy7elVy6Dxa7s9PXPgpX5c3NsgK8C3hbmXW; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.35.224.3] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PSDfA-0004ZC-TS for opsawg@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:02:21 -0500 Message-ID: <006301cb9af8$67b6ef00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <4D04C355.1050605@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <000601cb9a18$d2fed600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:03:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb092be071901d747dacd2bcaa6cbd1683350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.35.224.3 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Your floating-point draft (was: Fwd: [ruby-core:33638][Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2) X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 19:00:43 -0000 Hi - > From: "Andy Bierman" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "Martin J. Dürst" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 8:19 AM > Subject: RE: [OPSAWG] Your floating-point draft (was: Fwd: [ruby-core:33638][Ruby 1.9-Bug#4135] bug in calculations in 1.9.3dev / 1.9.2) ... > I guess I have forgotten that most SNMP agents have no floating point > support whatsoever. In the embedded systems I've worked on, floating-point support (usually via run-time libraries, rather than floating-point hardware) was generally available. (e.g. Gnu C runtimes) However, as a *developer* *decision* we chose not to use it, because the things we were doing in those products did not need it. Stripping out the floating point support itself didn't make the binaries a lot smaller. (As I recall the real bloat was in printf and scanf, rather than the math code itself.) > Also agents tend to prefer storing numbers in > the fewest number of bytes. In every case I can think of where using floating point is preferable to (scaled) integers, the floating point representation will be MORE compact. Floating point sacrifices precision (and in some cases accuracy) in order to gain compactness for a given dynamic range. If a scaled integer can cover the needed range and precision in fewer bytes, then a floating-point type is the wrong tool for the job. > I guess nowadays, SNMP agents need FP, > and don't care how much storage MIB objects take up on the device. Thinking about this as a former implementor, I'd argue that this should have no impact whatsoever on the SNMP master agent. The only thing in the managed device that needs to know about it at all would be the subagent(s) actually responsible for the floating-point data. At the level of AgentX or SMUX or whatever your communication mechanism happens to be, it's just an octet string. If none of your box's MIBs has floating-point data, its a complete non-issue. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Dec 13 12:01:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D52128C112 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:01:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.929, BAYES_00=-2.599, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iPFFoscwsqTZ for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC99828C0DF for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:01:46 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=HHUxpGv3XN/NWUdeZ2cA0MjapMKN0rdBunzuekK/AMdPPybklsaYNkYM2eEMkzQN; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.35.224.3] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PSEcH-0000C5-1v for opsawg@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:03:25 -0500 Message-ID: <008801cb9b00$f1bd2040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:04:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfbc6f8460fb4e894f929f45b2577f664ab350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.35.224.3 Subject: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-04.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 20:01:48 -0000 Hi - Updated based on discussion on this list. > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:00 PM > Subject: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-04.txt > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > Title : Textual Conventions for the Representation of Floating-Point Numbers > Author(s) : R. Presuhn > Filename : draft-presuhn-floats-04.txt > Pages : 8 > Date : 2010-12-13 > > This memo defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module > containing textual conventions (TCs) to represent floating-point > numbers. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-presuhn-floats-04.txt ... Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Dec 28 22:35:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1933A68B1 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:35:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.757 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.757 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.758, BAYES_50=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xTH9QgmthDa5 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B893A68AF for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:35:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=eXaqG2sCWSL0+nPJnDX3adw4tDYtB5HBao3xddJHasLsEW6jkCsxU2IGSlcqF2OR; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.38.144.95] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1PXpfJ-0002il-25 for opsawg@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2010 01:37:41 -0500 Message-ID: <000401cba723$1ed28c40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <008801cb9b00$f1bd2040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:39:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d888d26d9b9edb73dbfb2d170e546f59c3ee2bde466b8dcbf84f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.38.144.95 Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-04.txt X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 06:35:40 -0000 Hi - > From: "Randy Presuhn" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:04 PM > Subject: [OPSAWG] Fw: I-D Action:draft-presuhn-floats-04.txt ... It's been two weeks since the most recent version of this I-D was posted, and I have seen no comments on this latest version. Are we done? Randy