From nobody Sat May 2 18:05:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B20A1AC3A7; Sat, 2 May 2015 18:05:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HGheNi6uQmk; Sat, 2 May 2015 18:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22a.google.com (mail-ie0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29A1A1AC3A2; Sat, 2 May 2015 18:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iedfl3 with SMTP id fl3so124636269ied.1; Sat, 02 May 2015 18:05:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=9IyZGwoBVVB3ur7CljUHd4E6yFAXqZ9FvkaROht9gMQ=; b=yBDRYOVv1kF136d2ONCMzq6g4Fl/PwsSpUXzU32BwaxEwwAHhmGD4Y1QEgBtwZM3N7 1J5gvYB2SwzYRmvKlNG40p5zp7liTZo0JBh0yydH09pGq2OrEWDbcUrxGzT8sZmZAkwk t7YXvbXzQ8QcrDMDI4zyvU5/+ZOCMFpzv1nKFZym8E0l+hDJ84WfX8bVBuGXr/2HmgUx yZ3KurZOIwDmvv0u2tIs0GlWdvlpgjrkR9oxrBYVY3ZcXjo0x4Q1rVJVZV1NvJkWW8jS GeHEGS1hbclxq/eEMWlzpHfCLaQc0ykDPV8/4sXGBsC/RUx5BeIQfdk5EpSq0QUgNK8g 7Hgg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.4.67 with SMTP id i3mr5541663igi.47.1430615110695; Sat, 02 May 2015 18:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.156.194 with HTTP; Sat, 2 May 2015 18:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 18:05:10 -0700 Message-ID: From: Suhas Nandakumar To: mmusic WG , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2a13e7bbfef051523092e Archived-At: Subject: [MMUSIC] RTP/TCP - SDP IANA Registrations - 02 X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 01:05:12 -0000 --001a11c2a13e7bbfef051523092e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello All Sorry for cross posting Based on our discussions from IETF 92, I have submitted a new version of SDP Iana registrations draft describing SDP proto values for RTP profiles over TCP. Link: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nandakumar-mmusic-proto-iana-registration/ Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks Suhas --001a11c2a13e7bbfef051523092e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello All

=C2=A0 Sorry for cross postin= g

Based on our discussions from IETF 92, I have su= bmitted a new version of SDP Iana registrations draft describing SDP proto = values for RTP profiles over TCP.


Please let me know your thoughts.

=
Thanks
Suhas
--001a11c2a13e7bbfef051523092e-- From nobody Mon May 4 07:45:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0AD1A1AAE for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:45:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pm1vXBT5eSFj for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACA621A1B18 for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43267 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1YpHcP-0004X2-J3; Mon, 04 May 2015 07:45:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "mmusic issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.3 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.3, by Edgewall Software To: abegen@cisco.com X-Trac-Project: mmusic Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 14:45:13 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/mmusic/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/mmusic/trac/ticket/21#comment:2 Message-ID: <072.2d1fd4b5e7e3cce61b83ffe5be2b61e5@trac.tools.ietf.org> References: <057.4dfbff56b849f831d83512e00fa3474f@trac.tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 21 In-Reply-To: <057.4dfbff56b849f831d83512e00fa3474f@trac.tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: abegen@cisco.com, mmusic@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+mmusic@trac.tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Cc: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] [mmusic] #21 (rfc4566bis): ptime and maxptime X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 14:45:15 -0000 #21: ptime and maxptime Changes (by abegen@cisco.com): * status: new => closed * resolution: => fixed Comment: -15 is addressing these issues. -- -------------------------------+------------------------------ Reporter: abegen@cisco.com | Owner: abegen@cisco.com Type: defect | Status: closed Priority: major | Component: rfc4566bis Version: | Severity: - Resolution: fixed | Keywords: -------------------------------+------------------------------ Ticket URL: mmusic From nobody Mon May 4 07:46:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189FB1A1B77 for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:46:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RaKN6mAF94KY for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46D141A1B73 for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43335 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1YpHdm-0005wX-3k; Mon, 04 May 2015 07:46:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "mmusic issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.3 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.3, by Edgewall Software To: abegen@cisco.com X-Trac-Project: mmusic Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 14:46:38 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/mmusic/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/mmusic/trac/ticket/22#comment:2 Message-ID: <072.5bc71886944490b67b0c4ac33c73e44c@trac.tools.ietf.org> References: <057.1a77b7e10bbb8ca2976d2bebdd827c45@trac.tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 22 In-Reply-To: <057.1a77b7e10bbb8ca2976d2bebdd827c45@trac.tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: abegen@cisco.com, mmusic@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+mmusic@trac.tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Cc: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] [mmusic] #22 (rfc4566bis): a=quality X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 14:46:39 -0000 #22: a=quality Comment (by abegen@cisco.com): -15 is addressing this issue but a response from SIP forum is still pending. -- -------------------------------+------------------------------ Reporter: abegen@cisco.com | Owner: abegen@cisco.com Type: defect | Status: new Priority: major | Component: rfc4566bis Version: | Severity: - Resolution: | Keywords: -------------------------------+------------------------------ Ticket URL: mmusic From nobody Mon May 4 07:47:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE671A1B25 for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:47:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MX5IaaZD7a-4 for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B5B11A1A79 for ; Mon, 4 May 2015 07:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43369 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1YpHeS-0007YG-Tj; Mon, 04 May 2015 07:47:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "mmusic issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.3 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.3, by Edgewall Software To: abegen@cisco.com X-Trac-Project: mmusic Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 14:47:20 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/mmusic/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/mmusic/trac/ticket/18#comment:2 Message-ID: <072.3af71a169090e61db5fcfa4825b80ab7@trac.tools.ietf.org> References: <057.ff7aa703d4d9bc4c610db6667c10051a@trac.tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 18 In-Reply-To: <057.ff7aa703d4d9bc4c610db6667c10051a@trac.tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: abegen@cisco.com, mmusic@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+mmusic@trac.tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Cc: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] [mmusic] #18 (rfc4566bis): 4566bis: Should the source-level attributes defined in 5576 be included in the same table structure in the IANA registry? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 14:47:22 -0000 #18: 4566bis: Should the source-level attributes defined in 5576 be included in the same table structure in the IANA registry? Changes (by abegen@cisco.com): * status: new => closed * resolution: => fixed Comment: -15 is addressing this issue. -- -------------------------------+-------------------------------- Reporter: abegen@cisco.com | Owner: abegen@cisco.com Type: enhancement | Status: closed Priority: major | Component: rfc4566bis Version: | Severity: Active WG Document Resolution: fixed | Keywords: -------------------------------+-------------------------------- Ticket URL: mmusic From nobody Tue May 5 07:14:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF66C1ACEFD; Tue, 5 May 2015 07:14:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_INVITATION=-2] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2pNNa7HRM5Xh; Tue, 5 May 2015 07:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D561ACF1D; Tue, 5 May 2015 07:13:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.2.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150505141341.12350.8631.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 07:13:41 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 14:14:03 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group of the IETF. Title : SDP: Session Description Protocol Authors : Mark Handley Van Jacobson Colin Perkins Ali Begen Filename : draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt Pages : 57 Date : 2015-05-05 Abstract: This memo defines the Session Description Protocol (SDP). SDP is intended for describing multimedia sessions for the purposes of session announcement, session invitation, and other forms of multimedia session initiation. This document obsoletes RFC 4566. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue May 5 07:17:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46CF1A00C3 for ; Tue, 5 May 2015 07:17:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G9LS-y_k0sVh for ; Tue, 5 May 2015 07:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED0CB1ACEE7 for ; Tue, 5 May 2015 07:17:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2822; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1430835466; x=1432045066; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=7Rv0t3Vu3EkWwM8Y5pgD8XHWxRRxoigFa1lwLnqik/c=; b=AlvQVb47Llf8dtzJjQomphP1lYvE3+TMwbH2euAZ5a8Su7uevW3JmYB1 jgUHDwxOjErre5QFGDkR0P67kwNQDseUS/Sbei+8+oIIklkMYVt1xvucy rIxc136ZAJhiX4wUo1dJM/qOhQlo5u6rOJeV3A5VEHeazK9968N9jHXao Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0APBQDDz0hV/4MNJK1cgwxTXAWDGMREhgMCHIEZTAEBAQEBAYELhCABAQEEIxFDDgQCAQgRAwECAwImAgICMBUGAQEFAwIEE4gsDbEVk14BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXgSGKGIUMBoJiL4EWBYsghn2EE4ZDgSQ9gxmRNSODdG8BgUOBAQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,372,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="9348326" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 May 2015 14:17:45 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com [173.37.183.82]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t45EHj2P026022 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 5 May 2015 14:17:45 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x01.cisco.com ([169.254.2.212]) by xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com ([173.37.183.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 5 May 2015 09:17:45 -0500 From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" To: "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt Thread-Index: AQHQhz3GX4gl/hnIS0+h8BKFKmDHxJ1t9CAA Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 14:17:44 +0000 Message-ID: <98AC1ED5-BDC6-40AC-BA20-431558245E21@cisco.com> References: <20150505141341.12350.74919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20150505141341.12350.74919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.9.0.150408 x-originating-ip: [10.86.240.55] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <378D6EBBF94F4841B79076B33897A213@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 14:17:48 -0000 VGhpcyB2ZXJzaW9uIGFkZHJlc3NlcyBhbGwgdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIGlzc3VlcyBleGNlcHQ6DQoN CjEpIGE9cXVhbGl0eSBpcyBuZWl0aGVyIHdlbGwgZGVmaW5lZCBub3Iga25vd24gdG8gYmUgdXNl ZC4gSG93ZXZlciwgdGhlIGNoYWlycyAoSSBiZWxpZXZlIEFyaSkgd2VyZSBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byBj b25maXJtIHRoaXMgd2l0aCBTSVAgRm9ydW0uIEEgbm90ZSBoYXMgYmVlbiBhZGRlZCB0byB0aGUg ZG9jdW1lbnQuDQoyKSBUaGVyZSBhcmUgMiBlZGl0b3LigJlzIG5vdGVzIGluIHNlY3Rpb24gOC41 LiBQbGVhc2UgY29tbWVudCBvbiB3aGF0IHdlIHNob3VsZCBkbyByZWdhcmRpbmcgdGhvc2Ugbm90 ZXMuIA0KDQpQbGVhc2UgcmV2aWV3IHRoZSBjaGFuZ2VzIGFuZCBzZWUgd2hldGhlciB5b3UgaGF2 ZSBhbnkgcmVtYWluaW5nIGNvbmNlcm5zLiBUaGUgdGFyZ2V0IGRhdGUgZm9yIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQg dG8gYmUgY29tcGxldGVkIHdhcyBNYXJjaCAyMDE1IGFuZCBJIGhvcGUgd2UgY2FuIHNoaXAgdGhp cyBiZWZvcmUgUHJhZ3VlLg0KDQotYWNiZWdlbg0KDQoNCg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3Nh Z2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogImludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0BpZXRmLm9yZyINCkRhdGU6IFR1ZXNkYXks IE1heSA1LCAyMDE1IGF0IDU6MTMgUE0NClRvOiBWYW4gSmFjb2Jzb24sICJNYXJrIEouIEhhbmRs ZXkiLCAiQWxpIEMuIEJlZ2VuIiwgQ29saW4gUGVya2lucywgQ29saW4gUGVya2lucywgVmFuIEph Y29ic29uLCAiQWxpIEMuIEJlZ2VuIiwgTWFyayBIYW5kbGV5DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBOZXcgVmVyc2lv biBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9yIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbW11c2ljLXJmYzQ1NjZiaXMtMTUudHh0DQoN Cj4NCj5BIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIEktRCwgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tbXVzaWMtcmZjNDU2NmJpcy0x NS50eHQNCj5oYXMgYmVlbiBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGJ5IEFsaSBCZWdlbiBhbmQg cG9zdGVkIHRvIHRoZQ0KPklFVEYgcmVwb3NpdG9yeS4NCj4NCj5OYW1lOgkJZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1t bXVzaWMtcmZjNDU2NmJpcw0KPlJldmlzaW9uOgkxNQ0KPlRpdGxlOgkJU0RQOiBTZXNzaW9uIERl c2NyaXB0aW9uIFByb3RvY29sDQo+RG9jdW1lbnQgZGF0ZToJMjAxNS0wNS0wNQ0KPkdyb3VwOgkJ bW11c2ljDQo+UGFnZXM6CQk1Nw0KPlVSTDogICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tbXVzaWMtcmZjNDU2NmJpcy0xNS50eHQNCj5T dGF0dXM6ICAgICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtaWV0 Zi1tbXVzaWMtcmZjNDU2NmJpcy8NCj5IdG1saXplZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtbW11c2ljLXJmYzQ1NjZiaXMtMTUNCj5EaWZmOiAgICAgICAg ICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvcmZjZGlmZj91cmwyPWRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbW11c2ljLXJm YzQ1NjZiaXMtMTUNCj4NCj5BYnN0cmFjdDoNCj4gICBUaGlzIG1lbW8gZGVmaW5lcyB0aGUgU2Vz c2lvbiBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBQcm90b2NvbCAoU0RQKS4gIFNEUCBpcw0KPiAgIGludGVuZGVkIGZv ciBkZXNjcmliaW5nIG11bHRpbWVkaWEgc2Vzc2lvbnMgZm9yIHRoZSBwdXJwb3NlcyBvZg0KPiAg IHNlc3Npb24gYW5ub3VuY2VtZW50LCBzZXNzaW9uIGludml0YXRpb24sIGFuZCBvdGhlciBmb3Jt cyBvZg0KPiAgIG11bHRpbWVkaWEgc2Vzc2lvbiBpbml0aWF0aW9uLiAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBv YnNvbGV0ZXMgUkZDIDQ1NjYuDQo+DQo+ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIA0KPg0KPg0K PlBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHRo ZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24NCj51bnRpbCB0aGUgaHRtbGl6ZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlm ZiBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnLg0KPg0KPlRoZSBJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFy aWF0DQo+DQo= From nobody Tue May 5 19:01:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECA31ACE08 for ; Tue, 5 May 2015 19:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LbTzXWVz9iPO for ; Tue, 5 May 2015 19:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cserver5.myshophosting.com (cserver5.myshophosting.com [175.107.161.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF9E41A892B for ; Tue, 5 May 2015 19:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp118-209-233-96.lns20.mel8.internode.on.net ([118.209.233.96]:54625 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by cserver5.myshophosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypoe6-0000o3-8M for mmusic@ietf.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 12:01:10 +1000 Message-ID: <554975E8.6040703@nteczone.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 12:01:12 +1000 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic@ietf.org References: <20150505141341.12350.74919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <98AC1ED5-BDC6-40AC-BA20-431558245E21@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <98AC1ED5-BDC6-40AC-BA20-431558245E21@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cserver5.myshophosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - nteczone.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cserver5.myshophosting.com: authenticated_id: christian.groves@nteczone.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 02:01:20 -0000 Hello Ali, FYI 3GPP TS26.236 Annex A.1 lists a=quality as being an optional enhancement. I also had a quick websearch and https://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?t=56192 shows someone is using it. Regards, Christian On 6/05/2015 12:17 AM, Ali C. Begen (abegen) wrote: > This version addresses all the existing issues except: > > 1) a=quality is neither well defined nor known to be used. However, the chairs (I believe Ari) were supposed to confirm this with SIP Forum. A note has been added to the document. > 2) There are 2 editor’s notes in section 8.5. Please comment on what we should do regarding those notes. > > Please review the changes and see whether you have any remaining concerns. The target date for this draft to be completed was March 2015 and I hope we can ship this before Prague. > > -acbegen > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 5:13 PM > To: Van Jacobson, "Mark J. Handley", "Ali C. Begen", Colin Perkins, Colin Perkins, Van Jacobson, "Ali C. Begen", Mark Handley > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt > >> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Ali Begen and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis >> Revision: 15 >> Title: SDP: Session Description Protocol >> Document date: 2015-05-05 >> Group: mmusic >> Pages: 57 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis/ >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15 >> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15 >> >> Abstract: >> This memo defines the Session Description Protocol (SDP). SDP is >> intended for describing multimedia sessions for the purposes of >> session announcement, session invitation, and other forms of >> multimedia session initiation. This document obsoletes RFC 4566. >> >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic From nobody Wed May 6 02:02:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04E81A88A8 for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 02:02:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8aekp23Z7kWf for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 02:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDBA01A88BE for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 02:02:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4464; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1430902960; x=1432112560; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=BiO1e7jRIrPpwrOo4pJZM9xa/r3JrWtjqTHOkwHu3Qg=; b=nJzKZcvvXzFS3cz5UHikQVXSQi74vVjYu4dzhYzghPhgHY9Q5F2LzBeA SREj3Y6CWRviD2YuRtnNHuV1SC/uABj3gHCiXl5p9Oi8I/5w0/B8vK505 l54aWhHVwaAJYK7BgwE/hGG26YD1uKVN6DlXVTF1/IFDowqloSFYmf3Ab Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BUBACv10lV/4kNJK1CGoMMU1wFgxjCQQmBTAyFNU4CHIENOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIAEBAQQBAQEgEToJDgQCAQgRAwECAQICJgICAiULFQcBCAIEARIfiA0NOLAIk30BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXgSGKGIRqIgaCYi+BFgWLIIZ9hBOGQ4EkPYMZkTUjYIFYgTxvAYFDgQEBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,378,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="147550786" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 May 2015 09:02:39 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com [173.36.12.75]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4692dYe023967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 May 2015 09:02:39 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x01.cisco.com ([169.254.2.212]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 6 May 2015 04:02:39 -0500 From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" To: Christian Groves , "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt Thread-Index: AQHQhz3GX4gl/hnIS0+h8BKFKmDHxJ1t9CAAgACSQwCAAKgKAA== Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 09:02:38 +0000 Message-ID: <02266D45-85A8-41E6-A0B0-8D9D37B47E69@cisco.com> References: <20150505141341.12350.74919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <98AC1ED5-BDC6-40AC-BA20-431558245E21@cisco.com> <554975E8.6040703@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <554975E8.6040703@nteczone.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.9.0.150408 x-originating-ip: [10.86.245.74] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <6F1FC7B21837D0468E86FCA9B8B6F067@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: 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ZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1l IG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24NCj4+PiB1bnRpbCB0aGUgaHRtbGl6ZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlmZiBh cmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gVGhlIElFVEYgU2VjcmV0 YXJpYXQNCj4+Pg0KPj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18NCj4+IG1tdXNpYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IG1tdXNpY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0 cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9tbXVzaWMNCj4NCj5fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPm1tdXNpYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QNCj5tbXVzaWNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL21tdXNpYw0K From nobody Wed May 6 09:02:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F373F1B2BD8 for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 09:02:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.635 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.635 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PS9GUTkc_pmu for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 09:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A97E21B2C07 for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 09:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-19v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.115]) by resqmta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id QfyL1q0082VvR6D01g17RC; Wed, 06 May 2015 16:01:07 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-19v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Qg171q00G3Ge9ey01g176w; Wed, 06 May 2015 16:01:07 +0000 Message-ID: <554A3AC8.8020605@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 12:01:12 -0400 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic@ietf.org References: <20150505141341.12350.74919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <98AC1ED5-BDC6-40AC-BA20-431558245E21@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <98AC1ED5-BDC6-40AC-BA20-431558245E21@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1430928067; bh=X79UwpkBka9EnVV5Jw1Ezx5XYFQ7cuSfVBG7yEwVLzs=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=Z4TjrMf+jVHX0tFSGxw08lhbkrLqiRtngBDWKO7jiHNLOAZgPA8Xq2tmriI3WUyul RBU33s3QLULKQz8nJ4aQ7SYCgBtDlAo4pSfgo8V9HJyyJ48LQh0z7Df/2EcJ4j1q5k DzQH48aBvR8OJvfnBpSdthn8MtPOXC9lL/fQ0O+RYvlCeVDCUC77EzNAiuK26Y8AUL IHelOXmNELlJGc+s2w7Sop/oQqVPxtSpdJsAUWYrrJoX+Gz4z6aKVg/GmBJQymdKTX ak0U5M8PsAWkD1M3F+eXrZ1oU7LWAe6SdtOzKmY/dLs0m5uVTOm2U4DijAPL4U4uUA W52DHjivMtDJA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 16:02:30 -0000 On 5/5/15 10:17 AM, Ali C. Begen (abegen) wrote: > This version addresses all the existing issues except: > > 1) a=quality is neither well defined nor known to be used. However, the chairs (I believe Ari) were supposed to confirm this with SIP Forum. A note has been added to the document. I posted a query to sip-implementors about this. > 2) There are 2 editor’s notes in section 8.5. Please comment on what we should do regarding those notes. > > Please review the changes and see whether you have any remaining concerns. The target date for this draft to be completed was March 2015 and I hope we can ship this before Prague. Nit/taste issue: now that I see all the abnf together, ISTM that it might be tidier to change non-zero-real to: non-zero-real = zero-based-integer "." *DIGIT POS-DIGIT And I suggest moving the definition of zero-based-integer to just after the definition of integer, so that all the number definitions are grouped together. Also, I ran all the abnf through bap to formally check it. I found two problems: - the definition of 'origin-field' extends over two lines, but the 2nd line is not indented, as it must be. - in the definition of 'token-char' there is a slash at the end of the 2nd line (after "&"), and also a slash at the beginning of the continuation line. The one at the end ought to be removed. OLD: origin-field = %s"o" "=" username SP sess-id SP sess-version SP nettype SP addrtype SP unicast-address CRLF ... token-char = ALPHA / DIGIT / "!" / "#" / "$" / "%" / "&" / / "'" ; (single quote) / "*" / "+" / "-" / "." / "^" / "_" / "`" ; (Grave accent) / "{" / "|" / "}" / "~" NEW: origin-field = %s"o" "=" username SP sess-id SP sess-version SP nettype SP addrtype SP unicast-address CRLF ... token-char = ALPHA / DIGIT / "!" / "#" / "$" / "%" / "&" / "'" ; (single quote) / "*" / "+" / "-" / "." / "^" / "_" / "`" ; (Grave accent) / "{" / "|" / "}" / "~" Those were the only things I found. Thanks, Paul > -acbegen > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 5:13 PM > To: Van Jacobson, "Mark J. Handley", "Ali C. Begen", Colin Perkins, Colin Perkins, Van Jacobson, "Ali C. Begen", Mark Handley > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt > >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Ali Begen and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis >> Revision: 15 >> Title: SDP: Session Description Protocol >> Document date: 2015-05-05 >> Group: mmusic >> Pages: 57 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis/ >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15 >> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15 >> >> Abstract: >> This memo defines the Session Description Protocol (SDP). SDP is >> intended for describing multimedia sessions for the purposes of >> session announcement, session invitation, and other forms of >> multimedia session initiation. This document obsoletes RFC 4566. >> >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > From nobody Wed May 6 09:41:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588791B2C76 for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 09:41:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YtoQ1AsG3BbY for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 09:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B50481B2C68 for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 09:40:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6344; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1430930459; x=1432140059; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=d/9JmflPvim8Tu24DvWcaT/++tMQdefbuQvrZSX5/EY=; b=fvKEi/gNhIvm2vL9A3/Ce1pUkwB+zjni87knxjuMk/bfuC1C8pyvqAg4 h3YUsVYyYU3piiwGBlV1mRvGGppC9jrkpce+Ehb8HETkJa/IGoaCtYs0w UWYgkNn+hJcG1o1zmdUVerXVOCVIoU9oGGp2mJWvAIxXtYpXEpHS5a1+U U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BZBACmQ0pV/5pdJa1cDoJ+U1wFgxjCRwmBTAyFNU4CHIEKOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIAEBAQMBAQEBIBE6CQ4EAgEIDgMDAQIBAgImAgICJQsVBwEIAgQBEogkCA2xZpNeAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4EhihiEUjoGgmIvgRYFiySEUIIxhBSGRIEkPYMZkT4jYIFYfz5vAYFDgQEBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,380,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="147682831" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 May 2015 16:40:58 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com [173.36.12.84]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t46GevQG026189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 May 2015 16:40:57 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x01.cisco.com ([169.254.2.212]) by xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com ([173.36.12.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 6 May 2015 11:40:57 -0500 From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" To: Paul Kyzivat , "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt Thread-Index: AQHQhz3GX4gl/hnIS0+h8BKFKmDHxJ1t9CAAgAF89QCAAD1egA== Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 16:40:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150505141341.12350.74919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <98AC1ED5-BDC6-40AC-BA20-431558245E21@cisco.com> <554A3AC8.8020605@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <554A3AC8.8020605@alum.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.9.0.150408 x-originating-ip: [10.86.245.74] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7LSlIvMUmhyc for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 20:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7436F1A8844 for ; Wed, 6 May 2015 20:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 8602C180206; Wed, 6 May 2015 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com, schulzrinne@cs.columbia.edu, ben@nostrum.com, alissa@cooperw.in, fandreas@cisco.com, ari.keranen@ericsson.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 6000:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20150507033039.8602C180206@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: jeff@jeffpoole.net, mmusic@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [MMUSIC] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC5888 (4357) X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 03:32:06 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5888, "The Session Description Protocol (SDP) Grouping Framework". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5888&eid=4357 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Jeff Poole Section: 8.4.1 Original Text ------------- v=0 o=Laura 289083124 289083124 IN IP4 seven.example.com c=IN IP4 192.0.2.1 t=0 0 a=group:FID 1 2 m=audio 30000 RTP/AVP 0 a=mid:1 m=audio 20000 RTP/AVP 97 c=IN IP4 192.0.2.2 a=rtpmap:97 telephone-events a=mid:2 Corrected Text -------------- v=0 o=Laura 289083124 289083124 IN IP4 seven.example.com c=IN IP4 192.0.2.1 t=0 0 a=group:FID 1 2 m=audio 30000 RTP/AVP 0 a=mid:1 m=audio 20000 RTP/AVP 97 c=IN IP4 192.0.2.2 a=rtpmap:97 telephone-event a=mid:2 Notes ----- Minor typo on page 10. Per RFC4733, the rtpmap entry should use the media type "telephone-event" not "telephone-events". Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC5888 (draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc3388bis-04) -------------------------------------- Title : The Session Description Protocol (SDP) Grouping Framework Publication Date : June 2010 Author(s) : G. Camarillo, H. Schulzrinne Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Area : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri May 8 18:34:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37511A883C for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 18:34:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.289 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, TVD_FROM_1=0.999, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDFdNNqUlChz for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 18:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.live555.com (ns.live555.com [4.79.217.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C23B1A8820 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 18:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.live555.com [127.0.0.1]) by ns.live555.com (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id t491XCmN023335 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 18:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from finlayson@live555.com) From: Ross Finlayson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B59CDC0E-3FA9-4B58-ACE6-FB6E24902517" Message-Id: <4F8CB4D9-643C-4009-B651-6975D8ECC04E@live555.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 18:33:12 -0700 To: "mmusic@ietf.org (E-mail)" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Subject: [MMUSIC] Fun with acronyms X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 01:34:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B59CDC0E-3FA9-4B58-ACE6-FB6E24902517 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Check out http://RTSPonline.com/ It=E2=80=99s not what you think :-) Ross. --Apple-Mail=_B59CDC0E-3FA9-4B58-ACE6-FB6E24902517 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Check out

It=E2=80=99s not what you think = :-)

= Ross.

= --Apple-Mail=_B59CDC0E-3FA9-4B58-ACE6-FB6E24902517-- From nobody Sun May 10 22:27:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2748A1A8BBF; Sun, 10 May 2015 12:44:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ep27OuQw9AMs; Sun, 10 May 2015 12:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailuogwdur.emc.com (mailuogwdur.emc.com [128.221.224.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEA121A8BBD; Sun, 10 May 2015 12:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildlpprd52.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd52.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.156]) by mailuogwprd54.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id t4AJiExn006020 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 May 2015 15:44:14 -0400 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd54.lss.emc.com t4AJiExn006020 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1431287055; bh=j7iIfXgWZ2j7iAL8dKf9HFwVD5s=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=X/F/PUxxxXuUD4t3PP03G+WOjH89ss1AuslsvfRyoYneakBfmpiqzftHDdrBfVjCW qJ5XgxoSGzcRM1FGV42HuKXUhwGlROXp6O10pvT4R+dS/vVpV2BDh1sTUdRMEKkRMS 80cfSPO9F6lfx4T2qeONfuydftCmEXi3pzSp26uY= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd54.lss.emc.com t4AJiExn006020 Received: from mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.19]) by maildlpprd52.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Sun, 10 May 2015 15:44:23 -0400 Received: from mxhub02.corp.emc.com (mxhub02.corp.emc.com [10.254.141.104]) by mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id t4AJhtC0028627 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 10 May 2015 15:43:56 -0400 Received: from MXHUB205.corp.emc.com (10.253.68.31) by mxhub02.corp.emc.com (10.254.141.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.327.1; Sun, 10 May 2015 15:43:55 -0400 Received: from MX104CL02.corp.emc.com ([169.254.8.21]) by MXHUB205.corp.emc.com ([10.253.68.31]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Sun, 10 May 2015 15:43:55 -0400 From: "Black, David" To: "Magnus Westerlund (magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com)" , "thomas.zeng@gmail.com" , "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" , "ops-dir@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Gen-ART and OPS-Dir review of draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15 Thread-Index: AdCLWaBL3TCVr9ewRnKRE765QiSw4Q== Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 19:43:54 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.105.61.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: DLM_1, public Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 10 May 2015 22:26:59 -0700 Cc: "Black, David" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Subject: [MMUSIC] Gen-ART and OPS-Dir review of draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15 X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 19:44:26 -0000 Well, it's been almost a year since the review of the -14 version, but the = draft has now been revised, and significantly improved. Document: draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15 Reviewer: David L. Black Review Date: May 10, 2015 IESG Telechat Date: May 14, 2015 Summary: This draft is almost ready for publication, but has nits that should be corrected before publication. =20 The -15 version has significant changes in response to the Gen-ART/OPS-Dir review of the -14 version, e.g., addition of quite a bit of new text on ALG considerations. The two major issues from the review have been resolved as follows: > [1] The abstract characterizes this draft as the evaluation that lead to > the mmusic WG's choice of the NAT traversal technique for RTSP, but > the evaluation in this draft did not drive that choice, The title change to the draft, plus several other text changes, notably to the first sentence of the second paragraph of Section 4, suffice to address this concern. > [2] (problems with vague descriptions of mechanisms) The RTP No-OP discussion has been significantly rewritten and text has been added Section 4.1.1 on STUN characterization of NATs to address this vagueness concern. All of the minor issues have been addressed. -- Editorial Comments: Section 4.6.5 OLD The three way latching is significantly securer than NEW Three way latching is significantly more secure than I saw a number of other editorial items in the newly added text that I'll leave to the RFC Editor. idnits 2.13.02 found an obsolete reference: -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 3489 (Obsoleted by RFC 5389) This is intentional, as the draft refers to an obsolete STUN feature in that obsolete RFC, so this idnits complaint can be ignored. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: Black, David > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 10:57 PM > To: Magnus Westerlund (magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com); thomas.zeng@gmail= .com; > General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org); ops-dir@ietf.org > Cc: mmusic@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; Black, David > Subject: Gen-ART and OPS-Dir review of draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluat= ion- > 14 >=20 > This is a combined Gen-ART and OPS-DIR review. > Boilerplate for both follows ... >=20 > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. For background on > Gen-ART, please see the FAQ at >=20 > . >=20 > Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments > you may receive. >=20 > I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's on= going > effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These > comments > were written primarily for the benefit of the operational area directors. > Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any = other > last call comments. >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-14 > Reviewer: David L. Black > Review Date: June 14, 2014 > IETF LC End Date: June 13, 2014 >=20 > Summary: This draft is on the right track, but has open issues > described in the review. >=20 > This draft describes and evaluates a number of proposed NAT traversal > mechanisms for RTSP. The draft covers a lot of detailed material > about the proposed mechanisms, and necessarily assumes that the reader > has some reasonable familiarity with NAT and RTP concepts. >=20 > Major issues: >=20 > [1] The abstract characterizes this draft as the evaluation that lead to > the mmusic WG's choice of the NAT traversal technique for RTSP, but > the evaluation in this draft did not drive that choice, as indicated > in Section 6: >=20 > Looking at Figure 1 one would draw the conclusion that using TCP > Tunneling or Three-Way Latching is the solutions that best fulfill > the requirements. The different techniques were discussed in the > MMUSIC WG. It was established that the WG would pursue an ICE based > solution due to its generality and capability of handling also > servers delivering media from behind NATs. >=20 > OTOH, there appears to be a lot of useful material in this draft that > should be published in an informational RFC, not only the comparison, of > NAT traversal techniques, but also documentation of some of those > techniques, as indicated in Section 4: >=20 > This section includes NAT traversal techniques that > have not been formally specified anywhere else. The overview section > of this document may be the only publicly available specification of > some of the NAT traversal techniques. >=20 > This may be fairly simple to address, as the last sentence in the > abstract and the Section 6 text quoted above are the primary sources > of this issue. It may also help to change the title of this draft > from "The Evaluation of ..." to "Comparison of ..." and do something > analogous to other occurrences of the word "evaluation" in this draft. >=20 > Also in the text quoted from section 4 above "overview section" is > misleading, as the documentation is in Section 4 - I suggest deleting > "The overview section of". [Editorial] >=20 > [2] Section 4 says: >=20 > Some other techniques have been recommended against or are no longer > possible due to standardization works' outcome or their failure to > progress within IETF after the initial evaluation in this document, > e.g. RTP No-Op [I-D.ietf-avt-rtp-no-op]. >=20 > That's too vague, an explicit list should be provided of techniques in > Section 4 that should not or cannot currently be used, starting with RTP > No-Op including an explanation of why that is the case for each technique= . > There's also an important editorial clarification needed - these > "other techniques" are not NAT traversal techniques; they are possible > elements of some NAT traversal techniques. >=20 > This text is 4.1.1 is part of this issue: >=20 > The first version of STUN [RFC3489] included categorization and > parameterization of NATs. This was abandoned in the updated version > [RFC5389] due to it being unreliable and brittle. Some of the below > discussed methods are based on RFC3489 functionality which will be > called out and the downside of that will be part of the > characterization. >=20 > Minor issues: >=20 > [A] Firewall paragraph in Introduction confuses ALG implementation with > firewall configuration (presumably UDP pinholes). It needs to clearly > separate those two concepts, as the current text implies that punching > a UDP (pin)hole is part of the firewall implementation, whereas it's > actually part of the operational configuration of the firewall. >=20 > [B] Still in the Introduction (Section 1): >=20 > At the time when the bulk of work on this document was done, a single > level of NAT was the dominant deployment for NATs, and multiple level > of NATs, including Carrier Grade NATs (CGNs) has been only partially > considered. >=20 > That's vague - please provide a clear statement of what is out of scope f= or > this draft. It looks like everything other than Basic NAT techniques is > out of scope. >=20 > -- Section 1.2 > [C] > Many organizations > use firewalls to prevent privacy intrusions and malicious attacks to > corporate computing resources in the private intranet [RFC2588]. >=20 > Please remove the word "privacy" - I don't believe it's correct in this > context, as many of the intrusions are intended to compromise far more th= an > privacy. I would also change "to prevent" -> "to counter" as many current > attacks are not prevented by firewalls. >=20 > This needs more explanation: >=20 > 2. NAT does not in itself provide security, although some access > control policies can be implemented using address translation > schemes. The inherent filtering behaviours are commonly mistaken > for real security policies. >=20 > At a minimum, explain what sort of "security" is not provided. In additi= on, > I suggest noting that a NAT can provide some privacy by concealing > address/port > usage on the private side of the NAT. >=20 > [D] Still in Section 1.2: >=20 > In the rest of this memo we use the phrase "NAT traversal" > interchangeably with "firewall traversal", and "NAT/firewall > traversal". >=20 > No, don't do that, please. This is a NAT traversal document that conside= rs > the effects of NAT traversal techniques on firewalls, so the term "NAT > traversal" should be the primary term. >=20 > -- Section 2, last paragraph. > [E] > Note that if neither RTCP packets nor RTSP > messages are received by the RTSP server for a while, the RTSP server > has the option to delete the corresponding RTP session, SSRC and RTSP > session ID, because either the client can not get through a middle > box NAT/firewall, or the client is mal-functioning. >=20 > Is there any delay recommended before RTSP server reuse of that set of > identifying information (RTP session, SSRC and RTSP session ID)? >=20 > -- Section 3 > [F] > 3. Should have minimal impact on clients not behind NATs and which > are not dual-hosted. RTSP dual-hosting means that the RTSP > signalling protocol and the media protocol (e.g. RTP) are > implemented on different computers with different IP addresses. >=20 > * For instance, no extra delay from RTSP connection till arrival > of media >=20 > By comparison to requirement R3 in Section 6, the above text is too broad= . > The R3 requirement considered in this draft is specifically about additio= nal > protocol round trips; "extra delay" could be introduced for other reasons= . >=20 > [G] Still in Section 3 >=20 > 4. Should be simple to use/implement/administer so people actually > turn them on >=20 > * Otherwise people will resort to TCP tunneling through NATs >=20 > Not so fast ... TCP tunneling is one of the evaluated techniques (see > Section 4.8), so that text isn't right. Deletion of the > "* Otherwise ..." sub-bullet should suffice to deal with this. >=20 > [H] Still in Section 3 >=20 > 5. Should authenticate dual-hosted client transport handler to > prevent DDoS attacks. >=20 > What's a "dual-hosted client transport handler" ??? I suggest adding > this term and dual-hosting/dual-hosted to the Glossary in Section 1.3. >=20 > [I] Still in Section 3 >=20 > Note a simple preventative measure commonly > deployed is for the RTSP server to disallow the cases where the > client's RTP receiver has a different IP address than that of the > RTSP client. With the increased deployment of NAT middleboxes by > operators, i.e. carrier grade NAT (CGN), the reuse of an IP address > on the NAT's external side by many customers reduces the protection > provided. Also in some applications (e.g., centralized > conferencing), dual-hosted RTSP/RTP clients have valid use cases. > The key is how to authenticate the messages exchanged during the NAT > traversal process. >=20 > Is that "measure commonly deployed" recommended? The above text chunk > feels like Security Considerations text, and this text could usefully > be moved to Section 8. >=20 > [J] Section 4.1.1 relies on STUN's abandoned NAT type classification > functionality to determine where to send the hole-punching UDP packets. > What's wrong with always sending those packets to the "server's source > address/port"? That should work for both types of NATs, thereby removing > the dependency on STUN classification of NAT types. >=20 > [K] Why are ALG considerations only applicable to STUN-based techniques? >=20 > -- Section 4.3.4 Disadvantages list > [L] > o Assumes that it is possible to de-multiplex between the packets of > the media protocol and STUN packets. >=20 > That is actually possible, although the demux technique is not exactly > elegant Add a pointer to Section 5.1.2 of RFC 5764 for information on > how this can be done. >=20 > -- Section 4.4.1 > [M] > Latching [I-D.ietf-mmusic-latching] is a NAT traversal solution that > is based on requiring RTSP clients to send UDP packets to the > server's media output ports. >=20 > Well, draft-ietf-mmusic-latching is about to be approved for publication > as an RFC, but it does not apply to RTSP. Additional RTSP extension work > would be required, as specified in section 4.4.2. Please make that clear > at the start of this section, and include a forward pointer to section 4.= 4.2. >=20 > [N] Section 4.6 - Where are the security considerations for 3-way Latchin= g? >=20 > -- Section 4.8.4 > [O] > It is not possible to > get any amplification effect for denial of service attacks due to > TCP's flow control. >=20 > That's not correct or at least not a complete discussion of denial of ser= vice > possibilities - if an attacker can cause a lot of TCP SYNs to be sent to = a > target/victim, the result can be a DDoS attack. The text quoted above ne= eds > to be rewritten to address this possibility. >=20 > Nits/editorial comments: >=20 > There are additional editorial cleanups that I'll leave to the RFC Editor= , > but I noted a few things that seem to deserve mention here: >=20 > - Section 1, 1st paragraph >=20 > Today there is a proliferate deployment of different flavors of >=20 > "proliferate" -> "proliferating", "flavors" -> "types" >=20 > -- Section 1.1: >=20 > "This document uses the term "address and port mapping" as the > translation between an external address and port and an internal > address and port. Note that this is not the same as an "address > binding" as defined in RFC 2663." >=20 > Note: In the above it would be more correct to use external > instead of public in the above text. The external IP address is > commonly a public one, but might be of other type if the NAT's > external side is in a private address domain. >=20 > That's confusing - I think this can be improved by using more precise > terms in the first sentence (including adding quotes): > external instead of public -> > "external IP address" instead of "public IP address" >=20 > -- Section 2 >=20 > The loss of a > RTP mapping can only be detected when expected traffic does not > arrive. If a client does not receive data within a few seconds after > having received the "200 OK" response to a PLAY request, it may be > the result of a middlebox blocking the traffic. >=20 > Are "200 OK" and "PLAY request" sent via RTP? I don't think so ... > please clarify. >=20 > -- Section 4 >=20 > Add an explanation of what the "Transition:" text discusses for each > mechanism are about - transition from what to what? I believe that > these chunks of text concern transitioning to a (hypothetical, IMHO) > world in which NATs don't exist. >=20 > -- Section 4.3.4 Disadvantages list >=20 > o Assumes that it is possible to de-multiplex between the packets of > the media protocol and STUN packets. >=20 > It is possible, although not elegant. Add a pointer to Section 5.1.2 > of RFC 5764 for this. >=20 > -- Section 5 >=20 > DDoS attacks occur if > the attacker fakes the messages in the NAT traversal mechanism to > trick the RTSP server into believing that the client's RTP receiver > is located on a separate host. >=20 > "a separate host" -> "the host to be attacked". >=20 > -- Section 8 >=20 > The second paragraph in this section summarizes the security consideratio= ns > from Section 4. It ought to be followed by a paragraph that compares/ > contrasts the degree of security risks of the various NAT traversal mecha= nisms > to draw some conclusions - e.g., are some of the proposed mechanisms simp= ly > infeasible/implausible because the security risks are too high? >=20 > idnits 2.13.01 found a few minor concerns with the references: >=20 > =3D=3D Outdated reference: A later version (-07) exists of > draft-ietf-mmusic-latching-05 >=20 > =3D=3D Outdated reference: A later version (-21) exists of > draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-20 >=20 > -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 3489 > (Obsoleted by RFC 5389) >=20 > The final concern deserves attention - it would be a good thing if the > need to reference to RFC 3489 could be eliminated. See [J] above for > one suggested step towards that end. >=20 > --- Selected RFC 5706 Appendix A Q&A for OPS-Dir review --- >=20 > In general, there is a lot of operational considerations material > (applicable to A.1 questions) in this draft. Beyond that, management > considerations (A.2 questions) are generally inapplicable. >=20 > A.1.1. Has deployment been discussed? >=20 > Yes, there is significant good material on deployment considerations. >=20 > A.1.3. Has the migration path been discussed? >=20 > Not much, but discussion of migration is mostly deferrable to the > documentation of the selected NAT traversal mechanism and its > components. Ease/difficulty of adding the NAT traversal support > could have been an evaluation consideration, but was not used. > On balance, this seems ok. >=20 > A.1.4. Have the Requirements on other protocols and functional > components been discussed? >=20 > Yes, the discussion of each NAT traversal mechanism indicates what, > if any changes would be needed to protocols used by that mechanism. >=20 > But ... see major issue [2] above on the need for clarification > of the discussion of obsolete/unusable protocol changes/features. >=20 > A.1.9 Is configuration discussed? >=20 > Yes, as part of the deployment considerations discussion, and > the desire to avoid complexity of configuration is one of the > evaluation criteria (R4). >=20 > Thanks, > --David > ---------------------------------------------------- > David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer > EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA=A0 01748 > +1 (508) 293-7953=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 FAX: +1 (508) 293-7= 786 > david.black@emc.com=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 > ---------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon May 11 03:29:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31ACE1A896A; Mon, 11 May 2015 03:29:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qHYDy6c1yK-7; Mon, 11 May 2015 03:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC3D1A1B21; Mon, 11 May 2015 03:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4DF2CC5F; Mon, 11 May 2015 13:28:58 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from jari.arkko@piuha.net) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vWFmb_0SmMfo; Mon, 11 May 2015 13:28:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2a00:1d50:2::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3202CC5D; Mon, 11 May 2015 13:28:58 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from jari.arkko@piuha.net) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A69F71F2-917D-4CB8-81B2-12A411976E98"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 13:28:56 +0300 Message-Id: <01C550ED-A750-4DD3-B93F-A8732ECD977A@piuha.net> References: To: "Black, David" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Cc: "Magnus Westerlund \(magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com\)" , "thomas.zeng@gmail.com" , "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "General Area Review Team \(gen-art@ietf.org\)" , "mmusic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Gen-ART and OPS-Dir review of draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15 X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 10:29:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A69F71F2-917D-4CB8-81B2-12A411976E98 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 All: Many thanks for the review, re-review, and edits. Jari --Apple-Mail=_A69F71F2-917D-4CB8-81B2-12A411976E98 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVUIRoAAoJEM80gCTQU46qnB4P/RoOkXgb61m/5hmlRl9fFZ45 l//2TU3RtS+ruxwnpAwsTBL4bco/ygwKeQ7He58vz3neQfgVeqQqJPqnB4CwAWQV 5IHJAOH6HllsVnkr398l1vkOL2FZCLp0jpfynV9o2FP1FkFWCeKGaX/DJtHR9Nk2 TZWYX41itb0klmodhcdCdW7FWdm6O9rHjE76gQ11VAqARj6YBfg9vKdmcnl1g0jZ dFmZuZ0V4M5Ldb5LPKDBAalBnmCpAxnYCPg9+PyRPsc8xjNQMUd2Eqxs82cyPo7M xA40OzQyE8021jkuFKO5wyCuchBZqYAdeSvdIQU/s4fNFJ5+rc5lVWQAl5yN4MEA PtNcLXEK+Dju+8aHFmHpNZlcPafH0tRAKdG/fw0wPPet3HbL1U9qm/58bHHNVZpE ZxCMX040lsfctpXxxrqe/+lx0VKIeM/ya8Vv4v8jYcjKY+JNLzeS3uzPoFF4mpWn ySfHMxk0GJr1rdCcXvM+5Mq2ZL3yeDAdDTRrUT/j5UzBA7Oxd5BjmUY0GJjhoZtP XHxkCDkUIPca066nOTbGqzwXde0kJzJXOVwpEKQNSMl6Q0tHybXdHYyQksTIGhj8 UhsPG51fRkz2Kej99K0bRcLyImwff1BL7LB+aCeCW83l+cWyG4ewvfOxmOI5C6DU kbfzJHEwqwioNfnxKTaP =cIpl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A69F71F2-917D-4CB8-81B2-12A411976E98-- From nobody Tue May 12 01:38:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4111A6FBC; Tue, 12 May 2015 01:38:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gS_WpkhtW-rF; Tue, 12 May 2015 01:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2EC1A6FFA; Tue, 12 May 2015 01:37:45 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f794d6d000004501-ff-5551bbd7c428 Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 37.DD.17665.7DBB1555; Tue, 12 May 2015 10:37:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.210.2; Tue, 12 May 2015 10:37:39 +0200 Message-ID: <5551BBD3.3050401@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 10:37:39 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Black, David" , "thomas.zeng@gmail.com" , "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" , "ops-dir@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje713YGhBi+brS22Hl7LbnH11WcW i2cb57NYTF3+mMWit2kJs0Xjzs/sDmweR47MZvHYOesuu8eSJT+ZApijuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0S uDI+L4gp+DmdsaJh/RzmBsZl5V2MnBwSAiYSP/fuYIKwxSQu3FvP1sXIxSEkcJRRYvmbdywQ znJGicV/PrCDVPEKaEt8PLSZEcRmEVCVuLTrMTOIzSZgIXHzRyMbiC0qECUx8eshFoh6QYmT M5+ADRIROMYocXz/FrB1zAIeEqt+vARq4OAQFgiW6G9VBQkLCXhLzDx1DWw+p4CPxMTjh8FK mAXsJR5sLYPolJdo3jqbGaJcW6KhqYN1AqPgLCTbZiF0zELSsYCReRWjaHFqcXFuupGxXmpR ZnJxcX6eXl5qySZGYHgf3PJbdwfj6teOhxgFOBiVeHgfXPEPFWJNLCuuzD3EKM3BoiTOa2d8 KERIID2xJDU7NbUgtSi+qDQntfgQIxMHp1QDo9X/aTtKtAvFj3w5clnE7Htv2E2WWWzXp+Ve tbm9PdXs97ujPcUJW02rJh8Nuv5z+7uzLEfKIpn2+bRkvXLmc+t8fM/H9YbqkpCY2SyR+Y67 GQvlGpfks51o5Fa4O+NWH2NDRL1f7duUCzKuDJPFOdj+NM+z1/mj6aTgxvnQcsq6VLWKb0Gx SizFGYmGWsxFxYkA+Oi4KlACAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Gen-ART and OPS-Dir review of draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15 X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 08:38:09 -0000 Thanks David, I have put your editorial into my source. I will submit an update when suitable, likely after the rest of the IESG had given comments. Cheers Magnus Black, David skrev den 2015-05-10 21:43: > Well, it's been almost a year since the review of the -14 version, but the draft > has now been revised, and significantly improved. > > Document: draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15 > Reviewer: David L. Black > Review Date: May 10, 2015 > IESG Telechat Date: May 14, 2015 > > Summary: This draft is almost ready for publication, but has nits that > should be corrected before publication. > > The -15 version has significant changes in response to the Gen-ART/OPS-Dir > review of the -14 version, e.g., addition of quite a bit of new text on ALG > considerations. The two major issues from the review have been resolved > as follows: > >> [1] The abstract characterizes this draft as the evaluation that lead to >> the mmusic WG's choice of the NAT traversal technique for RTSP, but >> the evaluation in this draft did not drive that choice, > > The title change to the draft, plus several other text changes, notably > to the first sentence of the second paragraph of Section 4, suffice to > address this concern. > >> [2] (problems with vague descriptions of mechanisms) > > The RTP No-OP discussion has been significantly rewritten and text has > been added Section 4.1.1 on STUN characterization of NATs to address > this vagueness concern. > > All of the minor issues have been addressed. > > -- Editorial Comments: > > Section 4.6.5 > > OLD > The three way latching is significantly securer than > NEW > Three way latching is significantly more secure than > > I saw a number of other editorial items in the newly added text that > I'll leave to the RFC Editor. > > idnits 2.13.02 found an obsolete reference: > > -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 3489 > (Obsoleted by RFC 5389) > > This is intentional, as the draft refers to an obsolete STUN feature > in that obsolete RFC, so this idnits complaint can be ignored. > > Thanks, > --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Black, David >> Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 10:57 PM >> To: Magnus Westerlund (magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com); thomas.zeng@gmail.com; >> General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org); ops-dir@ietf.org >> Cc: mmusic@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; Black, David >> Subject: Gen-ART and OPS-Dir review of draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation- >> 14 >> >> This is a combined Gen-ART and OPS-DIR review. >> Boilerplate for both follows ... >> >> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. For background on >> Gen-ART, please see the FAQ at >> >> . >> >> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments >> you may receive. >> >> I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing >> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These >> comments >> were written primarily for the benefit of the operational area directors. >> Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other >> last call comments. >> >> Document: draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-14 >> Reviewer: David L. Black >> Review Date: June 14, 2014 >> IETF LC End Date: June 13, 2014 >> >> Summary: This draft is on the right track, but has open issues >> described in the review. >> >> This draft describes and evaluates a number of proposed NAT traversal >> mechanisms for RTSP. The draft covers a lot of detailed material >> about the proposed mechanisms, and necessarily assumes that the reader >> has some reasonable familiarity with NAT and RTP concepts. >> >> Major issues: >> >> [1] The abstract characterizes this draft as the evaluation that lead to >> the mmusic WG's choice of the NAT traversal technique for RTSP, but >> the evaluation in this draft did not drive that choice, as indicated >> in Section 6: >> >> Looking at Figure 1 one would draw the conclusion that using TCP >> Tunneling or Three-Way Latching is the solutions that best fulfill >> the requirements. The different techniques were discussed in the >> MMUSIC WG. It was established that the WG would pursue an ICE based >> solution due to its generality and capability of handling also >> servers delivering media from behind NATs. >> >> OTOH, there appears to be a lot of useful material in this draft that >> should be published in an informational RFC, not only the comparison, of >> NAT traversal techniques, but also documentation of some of those >> techniques, as indicated in Section 4: >> >> This section includes NAT traversal techniques that >> have not been formally specified anywhere else. The overview section >> of this document may be the only publicly available specification of >> some of the NAT traversal techniques. >> >> This may be fairly simple to address, as the last sentence in the >> abstract and the Section 6 text quoted above are the primary sources >> of this issue. It may also help to change the title of this draft >> from "The Evaluation of ..." to "Comparison of ..." and do something >> analogous to other occurrences of the word "evaluation" in this draft. >> >> Also in the text quoted from section 4 above "overview section" is >> misleading, as the documentation is in Section 4 - I suggest deleting >> "The overview section of". [Editorial] >> >> [2] Section 4 says: >> >> Some other techniques have been recommended against or are no longer >> possible due to standardization works' outcome or their failure to >> progress within IETF after the initial evaluation in this document, >> e.g. RTP No-Op [I-D.ietf-avt-rtp-no-op]. >> >> That's too vague, an explicit list should be provided of techniques in >> Section 4 that should not or cannot currently be used, starting with RTP >> No-Op including an explanation of why that is the case for each technique. >> There's also an important editorial clarification needed - these >> "other techniques" are not NAT traversal techniques; they are possible >> elements of some NAT traversal techniques. >> >> This text is 4.1.1 is part of this issue: >> >> The first version of STUN [RFC3489] included categorization and >> parameterization of NATs. This was abandoned in the updated version >> [RFC5389] due to it being unreliable and brittle. Some of the below >> discussed methods are based on RFC3489 functionality which will be >> called out and the downside of that will be part of the >> characterization. >> >> Minor issues: >> >> [A] Firewall paragraph in Introduction confuses ALG implementation with >> firewall configuration (presumably UDP pinholes). It needs to clearly >> separate those two concepts, as the current text implies that punching >> a UDP (pin)hole is part of the firewall implementation, whereas it's >> actually part of the operational configuration of the firewall. >> >> [B] Still in the Introduction (Section 1): >> >> At the time when the bulk of work on this document was done, a single >> level of NAT was the dominant deployment for NATs, and multiple level >> of NATs, including Carrier Grade NATs (CGNs) has been only partially >> considered. >> >> That's vague - please provide a clear statement of what is out of scope for >> this draft. It looks like everything other than Basic NAT techniques is >> out of scope. >> >> -- Section 1.2 >> [C] >> Many organizations >> use firewalls to prevent privacy intrusions and malicious attacks to >> corporate computing resources in the private intranet [RFC2588]. >> >> Please remove the word "privacy" - I don't believe it's correct in this >> context, as many of the intrusions are intended to compromise far more than >> privacy. I would also change "to prevent" -> "to counter" as many current >> attacks are not prevented by firewalls. >> >> This needs more explanation: >> >> 2. NAT does not in itself provide security, although some access >> control policies can be implemented using address translation >> schemes. The inherent filtering behaviours are commonly mistaken >> for real security policies. >> >> At a minimum, explain what sort of "security" is not provided. In addition, >> I suggest noting that a NAT can provide some privacy by concealing >> address/port >> usage on the private side of the NAT. >> >> [D] Still in Section 1.2: >> >> In the rest of this memo we use the phrase "NAT traversal" >> interchangeably with "firewall traversal", and "NAT/firewall >> traversal". >> >> No, don't do that, please. This is a NAT traversal document that considers >> the effects of NAT traversal techniques on firewalls, so the term "NAT >> traversal" should be the primary term. >> >> -- Section 2, last paragraph. >> [E] >> Note that if neither RTCP packets nor RTSP >> messages are received by the RTSP server for a while, the RTSP server >> has the option to delete the corresponding RTP session, SSRC and RTSP >> session ID, because either the client can not get through a middle >> box NAT/firewall, or the client is mal-functioning. >> >> Is there any delay recommended before RTSP server reuse of that set of >> identifying information (RTP session, SSRC and RTSP session ID)? >> >> -- Section 3 >> [F] >> 3. Should have minimal impact on clients not behind NATs and which >> are not dual-hosted. RTSP dual-hosting means that the RTSP >> signalling protocol and the media protocol (e.g. RTP) are >> implemented on different computers with different IP addresses. >> >> * For instance, no extra delay from RTSP connection till arrival >> of media >> >> By comparison to requirement R3 in Section 6, the above text is too broad. >> The R3 requirement considered in this draft is specifically about additional >> protocol round trips; "extra delay" could be introduced for other reasons. >> >> [G] Still in Section 3 >> >> 4. Should be simple to use/implement/administer so people actually >> turn them on >> >> * Otherwise people will resort to TCP tunneling through NATs >> >> Not so fast ... TCP tunneling is one of the evaluated techniques (see >> Section 4.8), so that text isn't right. Deletion of the >> "* Otherwise ..." sub-bullet should suffice to deal with this. >> >> [H] Still in Section 3 >> >> 5. Should authenticate dual-hosted client transport handler to >> prevent DDoS attacks. >> >> What's a "dual-hosted client transport handler" ??? I suggest adding >> this term and dual-hosting/dual-hosted to the Glossary in Section 1.3. >> >> [I] Still in Section 3 >> >> Note a simple preventative measure commonly >> deployed is for the RTSP server to disallow the cases where the >> client's RTP receiver has a different IP address than that of the >> RTSP client. With the increased deployment of NAT middleboxes by >> operators, i.e. carrier grade NAT (CGN), the reuse of an IP address >> on the NAT's external side by many customers reduces the protection >> provided. Also in some applications (e.g., centralized >> conferencing), dual-hosted RTSP/RTP clients have valid use cases. >> The key is how to authenticate the messages exchanged during the NAT >> traversal process. >> >> Is that "measure commonly deployed" recommended? The above text chunk >> feels like Security Considerations text, and this text could usefully >> be moved to Section 8. >> >> [J] Section 4.1.1 relies on STUN's abandoned NAT type classification >> functionality to determine where to send the hole-punching UDP packets. >> What's wrong with always sending those packets to the "server's source >> address/port"? That should work for both types of NATs, thereby removing >> the dependency on STUN classification of NAT types. >> >> [K] Why are ALG considerations only applicable to STUN-based techniques? >> >> -- Section 4.3.4 Disadvantages list >> [L] >> o Assumes that it is possible to de-multiplex between the packets of >> the media protocol and STUN packets. >> >> That is actually possible, although the demux technique is not exactly >> elegant Add a pointer to Section 5.1.2 of RFC 5764 for information on >> how this can be done. >> >> -- Section 4.4.1 >> [M] >> Latching [I-D.ietf-mmusic-latching] is a NAT traversal solution that >> is based on requiring RTSP clients to send UDP packets to the >> server's media output ports. >> >> Well, draft-ietf-mmusic-latching is about to be approved for publication >> as an RFC, but it does not apply to RTSP. Additional RTSP extension work >> would be required, as specified in section 4.4.2. Please make that clear >> at the start of this section, and include a forward pointer to section 4.4.2. >> >> [N] Section 4.6 - Where are the security considerations for 3-way Latching? >> >> -- Section 4.8.4 >> [O] >> It is not possible to >> get any amplification effect for denial of service attacks due to >> TCP's flow control. >> >> That's not correct or at least not a complete discussion of denial of service >> possibilities - if an attacker can cause a lot of TCP SYNs to be sent to a >> target/victim, the result can be a DDoS attack. The text quoted above needs >> to be rewritten to address this possibility. >> >> Nits/editorial comments: >> >> There are additional editorial cleanups that I'll leave to the RFC Editor, >> but I noted a few things that seem to deserve mention here: >> >> - Section 1, 1st paragraph >> >> Today there is a proliferate deployment of different flavors of >> >> "proliferate" -> "proliferating", "flavors" -> "types" >> >> -- Section 1.1: >> >> "This document uses the term "address and port mapping" as the >> translation between an external address and port and an internal >> address and port. Note that this is not the same as an "address >> binding" as defined in RFC 2663." >> >> Note: In the above it would be more correct to use external >> instead of public in the above text. The external IP address is >> commonly a public one, but might be of other type if the NAT's >> external side is in a private address domain. >> >> That's confusing - I think this can be improved by using more precise >> terms in the first sentence (including adding quotes): >> external instead of public -> >> "external IP address" instead of "public IP address" >> >> -- Section 2 >> >> The loss of a >> RTP mapping can only be detected when expected traffic does not >> arrive. If a client does not receive data within a few seconds after >> having received the "200 OK" response to a PLAY request, it may be >> the result of a middlebox blocking the traffic. >> >> Are "200 OK" and "PLAY request" sent via RTP? I don't think so ... >> please clarify. >> >> -- Section 4 >> >> Add an explanation of what the "Transition:" text discusses for each >> mechanism are about - transition from what to what? I believe that >> these chunks of text concern transitioning to a (hypothetical, IMHO) >> world in which NATs don't exist. >> >> -- Section 4.3.4 Disadvantages list >> >> o Assumes that it is possible to de-multiplex between the packets of >> the media protocol and STUN packets. >> >> It is possible, although not elegant. Add a pointer to Section 5.1.2 >> of RFC 5764 for this. >> >> -- Section 5 >> >> DDoS attacks occur if >> the attacker fakes the messages in the NAT traversal mechanism to >> trick the RTSP server into believing that the client's RTP receiver >> is located on a separate host. >> >> "a separate host" -> "the host to be attacked". >> >> -- Section 8 >> >> The second paragraph in this section summarizes the security considerations >> from Section 4. It ought to be followed by a paragraph that compares/ >> contrasts the degree of security risks of the various NAT traversal mechanisms >> to draw some conclusions - e.g., are some of the proposed mechanisms simply >> infeasible/implausible because the security risks are too high? >> >> idnits 2.13.01 found a few minor concerns with the references: >> >> == Outdated reference: A later version (-07) exists of >> draft-ietf-mmusic-latching-05 >> >> == Outdated reference: A later version (-21) exists of >> draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-20 >> >> -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 3489 >> (Obsoleted by RFC 5389) >> >> The final concern deserves attention - it would be a good thing if the >> need to reference to RFC 3489 could be eliminated. See [J] above for >> one suggested step towards that end. >> >> --- Selected RFC 5706 Appendix A Q&A for OPS-Dir review --- >> >> In general, there is a lot of operational considerations material >> (applicable to A.1 questions) in this draft. Beyond that, management >> considerations (A.2 questions) are generally inapplicable. >> >> A.1.1. Has deployment been discussed? >> >> Yes, there is significant good material on deployment considerations. >> >> A.1.3. Has the migration path been discussed? >> >> Not much, but discussion of migration is mostly deferrable to the >> documentation of the selected NAT traversal mechanism and its >> components. Ease/difficulty of adding the NAT traversal support >> could have been an evaluation consideration, but was not used. >> On balance, this seems ok. >> >> A.1.4. Have the Requirements on other protocols and functional >> components been discussed? >> >> Yes, the discussion of each NAT traversal mechanism indicates what, >> if any changes would be needed to protocols used by that mechanism. >> >> But ... see major issue [2] above on the need for clarification >> of the discussion of obsolete/unusable protocol changes/features. >> >> A.1.9 Is configuration discussed? >> >> Yes, as part of the deployment considerations discussion, and >> the desire to avoid complexity of configuration is one of the >> evaluation criteria (R4). >> >> Thanks, >> --David >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer >> EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 >> +1 (508) 293-7953 FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786 >> david.black@emc.com Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 >> ---------------------------------------------------- > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed May 13 04:21:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 809F81A0264; Wed, 13 May 2015 04:21:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ogp_5eE0FjDx; Wed, 13 May 2015 04:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63DF21A0263; Wed, 13 May 2015 04:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79ec6d000006dc0-05-555333b39777 Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 46.BC.28096.3B333555; Wed, 13 May 2015 13:21:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.89) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.210.2; Wed, 13 May 2015 13:21:22 +0200 Message-ID: <555333B1.6050607@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:21:21 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alvaro Retana , The IESG References: <20150512213044.30495.51553.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20150512213044.30495.51553.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre5m4+BQg30tyhZ/f25ltLhw9zqT xYw/E5ktpi5/zOLA4jHl90ZWjyVLfjJ5fLn8mS2AOYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr482ND8wFL2Qq Zry6ydzAuFC8i5GTQ0LAROLamw2MELaYxIV769m6GLk4hASOMkrM+rSEBcJZzigxe94upi5G Dg5eAW2JD/d8QRpYBFQlzi+ewwZiswlYSNz80QhmiwpESUz8eogFxOYVEJQ4OfMJmC0iYC/x c/87dhCbWSBVYveJX8wgtrBAusSPc5fBbCEBR4n1y5awgticAk4ST/cdZ4Got5CYOf88I4Qt L9G8dTZUvbZEQ1MH6wRGwVlI1s1C0jILScsCRuZVjKLFqcXFuelGRnqpRZnJxcX5eXp5qSWb GIHBfHDLb6sdjAefOx5iFOBgVOLhVdgQFCrEmlhWXJl7iFGag0VJnNfO+FCIkEB6Yklqdmpq QWpRfFFpTmrxIUYmDk6pBsaipbqzl5WvLjG/+nuG8CfVvq5ZLXaOxVsuTRb5nNxeWdTr6uM6 K3br6iLNs0L2xyeKTV+5Zeq91wU7dhlOm33OWit1ZstL3dazHowu7v07v868tFpdm69qQ0RT T8G/z8/CZwgwy5mXBnvueOhmkays5Hsjoru1jferkaDKAa7UsJOLD97/9FaJpTgj0VCLuag4 EQCOZRgfRwIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation.all@tools.ietf.org, "mmusic \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 11:21:28 -0000 Thanks for the review! Alvaro Retana skrev den 2015-05-12 23:30: > Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have two comments: > > 1. The introduction states that multiple levels of NATs (including CGNs) > were not considered. While I understand the history behind this draft > and the time frame when it was written, I would really like to see > something mentioned about the potential impact on the different > techniques. (I could only find a brief discussion in section 4.4 > (Latching) to the potential effect of multiple NATs/CGN. Something > similar to the text there would be ideal.) I agree that it would be preferable to have significant considerations for multi-level NATs, but we really have no cycles to spend on this. > > 2. Section 8 (Security Considerations) mentions the fact that "three way > latching as well as ICE mitigates these security issues and performs the > important return-routability check". Please add a reference to this > important check. I looked at RFC5245 (ICE), but could not find that > check described (just connectivity checks); is that what you're referring > to with a different name? > So the word return-routability check (really procedure) comes from mobile IPv6. The point of these checks is that each side does perform a check that I can send you a packet with a token, and you prove that you received it by echoing it back. Thus, preventing off-path attacks. In ICE this is done by the double sided connectivity checks. I suggest the following clarifications: In Section 4.3.6: The ICE connectivity checks with their random transaction IDs from the server to the client servers as return-routability check and prevents off- path attacker to succeed with address spoofing. Similar to Mobile IPV6's return routability procedure (Section 5.2.5 of [RFC3775]). In Section 4.6.5 The client to server nonce and its echoing back does not protect against on-patch attacker, including malicious clients. However, the server to client nonce and its echoing back prevents malicious clients to divert the media stream by spoofing the source address and port, as it can't echo back the nonce in these cases. Similar to the Mobile IPv6 return routability procedure (Section 5.2.5 of [RFC3775]) This way, the term is known to the reader by the time they come to the summary in the end. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed May 13 08:32:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F55C1A873E; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:11:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n_imSdjqN-vZ; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 573611A87E7; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:11:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2203; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1431522675; x=1432732275; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=LYoa5vqe7TDeOl92HStzNzqEfTXVC9h/IopjLu0xk9c=; b=ZNgFp9SxUTwx+47bHGZ0zwZcim7oGCm7aLUcloSynNJqpiMWZdWfxOEG fGfu8we5SliqudIQ/SW2i0XwCAd5qkxsX7oM+wy1/CjCY5n3qc7kHX/+P QHiFq18moW4A6Et5nye6+iRXZLTwjlcGkvU64NGUg2a2M/bHguqmNxwSY A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AQBQA9TVNV/4kNJK1cgw+BMgbMZwKBOTsRAQEBAQEBAYEKhCEBAQQ6PxACAQg2EDIlAgQBDQWILMgoAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4s6hDpLB4QtAQSLOoRmgjaKcIElg2ORbiNhgVmBPW+BRYEBAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,420,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="149571761" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 May 2015 13:11:04 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4DDB4h4025155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 May 2015 13:11:04 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x15.cisco.com ([169.254.9.199]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 13 May 2015 08:11:04 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Magnus Westerlund , The IESG Thread-Topic: Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHQjPrqwX6xhVzjkEywIRX5vTnjW516F7yA///blAA= Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:11:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150512213044.30495.51553.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <555333B1.6050607@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <555333B1.6050607@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1E1B3A5661755B4AB80EADDD536B3F4D@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 13 May 2015 08:32:00 -0700 Cc: "draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation.all@tools.ietf.org" , "mmusic \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:11:18 -0000 On 5/13/15, 7:21 AM, "Magnus Westerlund" wrote: Magnus: Hi! >> >> >> >>2. Section 8 (Security Considerations) mentions the fact that "three way >>latching as well as ICE mitigates these security issues and performs the >>important return-routability check". Please add a reference to this >>important check. I looked at RFC5245 (ICE), but could not find that >>check described (just connectivity checks); is that what you're referring >>to with a different name? >> > >So the word return-routability check (really procedure) comes from >mobile IPv6. The point of these checks is that each side does perform a >check that I can send you a packet with a token, and you prove that you >received it by echoing it back. Thus, preventing off-path attacks. In >ICE this is done by the double sided connectivity checks. > >I suggest the following clarifications: > > >In Section 4.3.6: > The ICE > connectivity checks with their random transaction IDs from the server > to the client servers as return-routability check and prevents off- > path attacker to succeed with address spoofing. Similar to Mobile > IPV6's return routability procedure (Section 5.2.5 of [RFC3775]). For ICE, I would suggest pointing at RFC5245. A small nit on the text (serves, not servers). NEW> The ICE connectivity checks [RFC5245] with their random transaction IDs from the server to the client serves as return-routability check and prevents off- path attacker to succeed with address spoofing. > > >In Section 4.6.5 > > The client to server nonce and its echoing back does not protect > against on-patch attacker, including malicious clients. However, the > server to client nonce and its echoing back prevents malicious > clients to divert the media stream by spoofing the source address and > port, as it can't echo back the nonce in these cases. Similar to > the Mobile IPv6 return routability procedure (Section 5.2.5 of > [RFC3775]) > >This way, the term is known to the reader by the time they come to the >summary in the end. Looks good. Thanks! Alvaro. From nobody Thu May 14 20:28:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B061A8715 for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 20:28:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nVZ-Qws9EJmH for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 20:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 400571A7030 for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 20:28:06 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f798d6d0000009ec-c2-555567c3035f Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id DB.93.02540.3C765555; Fri, 15 May 2015 05:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nomadiclab.lmf.ericsson.se (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.38) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.210.2; Fri, 15 May 2015 05:28:03 +0200 Received: from nomadiclab.lmf.ericsson.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nomadiclab.lmf.ericsson.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A884E97B; Fri, 15 May 2015 06:32:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from As-MacBook-Air.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nomadiclab.lmf.ericsson.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894E44E964; Fri, 15 May 2015 06:32:29 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <555567C3.6050206@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 20:28:03 -0700 From: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre6R9NBQg87fzBbvr/5jtXh/Qddi 6vLHLA7MHlN+b2T1WLLkJ5PHl8uf2QKYo7hsUlJzMstSi/TtErgy2vdfZy6Yy1yx79AG5gbG k0xdjJwcEgImEi9X7mSBsMUkLtxbz9bFyMUhJHCUUWLBuhNQzjZGie3Hf7OBVAkJrGOU2D9N CsJewSjRfSa8i5GDg1dAW+JHtwZImEVAVeL+kWmsIDabgK3E6lc3wRaICqRIPPz7mxnE5hUQ lDg58wlYXERARmLvps1gcWaBfInN13eDxYUFkiU+9C5nh4hbSMycf54RwpaX2P52DjPE0WoS V89tYoY4R1Xi6r9XjBMYhWYhWTELSfssJO0LGJlXMYoWpxYn5aYbGemlFmUmFxfn5+nlpZZs YgQG9sEtvw12ML587niIUYCDUYmHVyE4NFSINbGsuDL3EKM0B4uSOK9nV0iokEB6Yklqdmpq QWpRfFFpTmrxIUYmDk6pBka9zIkc1/VOP9xheUtm8/N1U4/aCSZ9/CezPPLdnI+XVAxi9i/4 +O+ZW4gep0Sz3NebwRfl1u44w9SzszDgZFCrSsNjxb7Q/BfLp13+faT90jVzvTWt32SWJGU4 Wu6/OLu8a4bU1t1T5sQEvjz7tEqb49Fsa4lpc3ZF/nmlY9vM+IrX8cuLWXuMlViKMxINtZiL ihMBCmfRbk0CAAA= Archived-At: Cc: Flemming Andreasen , draft-nandakumar-mmusic-proto-iana-registration@tools.ietf.org Subject: [MMUSIC] Confirming adoption of draft-nandakumar-mmusic-proto-iana-registration-02 as WG document X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 03:28:08 -0000 Hi all, We are planning to adopt draft-nandakumar-mmusic-proto-iana-registration-02 as a WG document for our new related milestone based on the favorable hums and mic discussion at the Dallas meeting unless anybody on the list is against this. If you have any concerns regarding the adoption, please let us know no later than Thursday, May 28th, 2015. Thanks, Ari & Flemming (MMUSIC chairs) From nobody Thu May 14 21:00:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F7B1A884F; Thu, 14 May 2015 21:00:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eBek4TDEn9vv; Thu, 14 May 2015 21:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEACF1A8847; Thu, 14 May 2015 21:00:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150515040018.1061.55657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 21:00:18 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness-00.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 04:00:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group of the IETF. Title : ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack Fairness Authors : Paal-Erik Martinsen Tirumaleswar Reddy Prashanth Patil Filename : draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness-00.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2015-05-13 Abstract: This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original ICE specification. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri May 15 12:49:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B5101A8864 for ; Fri, 15 May 2015 12:48:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b9D9PHpY5oSu for ; Fri, 15 May 2015 12:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0FDC1A8860 for ; Fri, 15 May 2015 12:48:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=24341; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1431719334; x=1432928934; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=yfWKi2UJciEIIx63OpYsDp8/YdsmuVZV8c/jmP68ZwI=; b=lJ0mJQUq2VqnWqlGEb6dmHOtmcoPlrYEjOgcvdTUyN6wRqXWGBOnQsJF XAFOHdYB1Z/axB5cBvRLYsGbvlXpptUGf5nG2b4Ay8Sl2eeHSvVWl6odw pXPM2ARPaGh1mkvX2tF3rp2wmyYllgFLWunzkLYhudS0rzy6cxopVeBvp E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BpBAArTVZV/49dJa1CGoMQVF6yYgEBAQeReQmBNhkBCYUsSgKBNTgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCIBAQEEAQEBCQ5NBwsOAhwDAQIBCR4HDwIKBgYfCQgGCgMBBQIBAYgTAxINOtFmDYUIAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFwSGEoZhgRCBbToRBwaEJwWGZAOEVYEbixCBbYIrgVWBJ4Nlglt+hyOCcS6DWCNhgSYDDQ+BbiIxARKCMwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,436,1427760000"; d="scan'208,217";a="150608165" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 May 2015 19:48:32 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.205] (bxb-fandreas-88112.cisco.com [10.98.149.205]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4FJmUj8023025; Fri, 15 May 2015 19:48:30 GMT Message-ID: <55564D95.60802@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 15:48:37 -0400 From: Flemming Andreasen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic References: <54C76A07.1090902@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <54C76A07.1090902@ericsson.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <54C76A07.1090902@ericsson.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060602090604010901030901" Archived-At: Cc: Magnus Westerlund , juliusfriedman@gmail.com Subject: [MMUSIC] Errata Rejected [Fwd: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC2326 (4199)] X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 19:48:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060602090604010901030901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings MMUSIC Following up on this old thread, we have not seen any further e-mail exchanges that would change Magnus's recommendation to reject the errata in question. We plan to inform our ADs and the RFC Editor accordingly by Friday May 22nd. If you disagree with this, please let us know before then. Thanks -- Flemming (MMUSIC co-chair) -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC2326 (4199) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:35:51 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund To: rlb@ipv.sx, alissa@cooperw.in, fandreas@cisco.com, ari.keranen@ericsson.com CC: juliusfriedman@gmail.com, mmusic@ietf.org Hi, Regarding this errata I recommend that it is being rejected. The reason is that is is technical change that can cause compatibility issues, and further does not resolve the issue as it is missing the required escaping definitions (another technical change). In addition we know that RFC 2326 is quite buggy and attempting to fix it with Errata does not work. However, as this issue is retained in RTSP 2.0 I like to comment on it in that context. Thus, the question becomes should we fix this in RTSP 2.0? Both version of RTSP allows binary non-escaped data in two places. The message-body as well as the data portion of the Embedded binary data. These parts can clearly contain a octet value of decimal 36 ("$"). Thus these must be skipped by any parser using the provided length fields. Thus, a very simple parser based on just looking for $ in a byte stream will not work anyway. The parser must know what part of the message structures it is in to be able to correctly parse and consume incoming bytes over the RTSP connection. Thus a parser must work on message basis. Which means that requests, responses and embedded data must be possible to separate. This must be done on the beggining of each chunk. Response starts with RTSP/2.0 and can't contain $. Requests starts with the method name. Unfortunately the ABNF is not explicit on forbidding a method name to start with a $. However, the text in Section 13 is. We should clearly consider fixing the ABNF so that it is explicit also in the ABNF. However, taking the proposed step and moving $ into the reserved category of characters will have much more significant impact. For example, it will result in an URI format that is more restricted than the general one. I haven't analysed the full impact of this. Nor have I looked through all the headers which may contain values to see what impact this has. However, the current specification does not prevent correct separation of RTSP messages from interleaved. It does require a message aware parser and that parser could be tripped by malformed messages. If this issue had been raised early in the RTSP 2.0 work, we could have resolved it to a much greater satisfaction and been able to make the protocol more robust. Cheers Magnus On 2014-12-12 00:48, RFC Errata System wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC2326, "Real > Time Streaming Protocol (RTSP)". > > -------------------------------------- You may review the report > below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2326&eid=4199 > > -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: > Julius Friedman > > Section: 4 > > Original Text ------------- 4 RTSP Message > > RTSP is a text-based protocol and uses the ISO 10646 character set > in UTF-8 encoding (RFC 2279 [21]). Lines are terminated by CRLF, but > receivers should be prepared to also interpret CR and LF by > themselves as line terminators. > > Text-based protocols make it easier to add optional parameters in a > self-describing manner. Since the number of parameters and the > frequency of commands is low, processing efficiency is not a concern. > Text-based protocols, if done carefully, also allow easy > implementation of research prototypes in scripting languages such as > Tcl, Visual Basic and Perl. > > The 10646 character set avoids tricky character set switching, but is > invisible to the application as long as US-ASCII is being used. This > is also the encoding used for RTCP. ISO 8859-1 translates directly > into Unicode with a high-order octet of zero. ISO 8859-1 characters > with the most-significant bit set are represented as 1100001x > 10xxxxxx. (See RFC 2279 [21]) > > RTSP messages can be carried over any lower-layer transport protocol > that is 8-bit clean. > > Requests contain methods, the object the method is operating upon > and parameters to further describe the method. Methods are > idempotent, unless otherwise noted. Methods are also designed to > require little or no state maintenance at the media server. > > Corrected Text -------------- > > > 4 RTSP Message > > RTSP is a text-based protocol and uses the ISO 10646 character set > in UTF-8 encoding (RFC 2279 [21]). Lines are terminated by CRLF, but > receivers should be prepared to also interpret CR and LF by > themselves as line terminators. > > Text-based protocols make it easier to add optional parameters in a > self-describing manner. Since the number of parameters and the > frequency of commands is low, processing efficiency is not a concern. > Text-based protocols, if done carefully, also allow easy > implementation of research prototypes in scripting languages such as > Tcl, Visual Basic and Perl. > > The 10646 character set avoids tricky character set switching, but is > invisible to the application as long as US-ASCII is being used. This > is also the encoding used for RTCP. ISO 8859-1 translates directly > into Unicode with a high-order octet of zero. ISO 8859-1 characters > with the most-significant bit set are represented as 1100001x > 10xxxxxx. (See RFC 2279 [21]) > > RTSP messages can be carried over any lower-layer transport protocol > that is 8-bit clean. > > Requests contain methods, the object the method is operating upon > and parameters to further describe the method. Methods are > idempotent, unless otherwise noted. Methods are also designed to > require little or no state maintenance at the media server. > > *Please note the hexadecimal octet 0x36 should not be included in any > part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary > escaped sequence as defined in: *. > > Notes ----- Section [15.1 Base Syntax] makes the following > definitions: .. safe = "$" | "-" | "_" | "." | "+" .. > reserved = ";" | "/" | "?" | ":" | "@" | "&" | "=" extra > = "!" | "*" | "$'$" | "(" | ")" | "," unreserved = alpha | > digit | safe | extra xchar = unreserved | reserved | > escape > > However it doesn't explicitly state the association of "$" > [hexadecimal 0x24] > > Section [10.12 Embedded (Interleaved) Binary Data] specified a > mechanism of transferring RTSP messages over a TCP connection with a > application layer header consisting of the hexadecimal octet 0x24; > followed by a single octet channel identifier and the RFC4571 length > specifier of the frame. > > Due to the fact 0x24 violates section 4's requirements based on the > fact it cannot be masked with the octet (AND 0xc3) to ensure it is a > valid character I am filing this errata. > > The chosen octet may also be present, specifically in the types of > RTSP messages which are interleaved during playback such as ANNOUNCE. > E.g. 0x24 could be a part of the configuration specifying the bits > per pixel or audio bit depth as part of the SDP inter alia. > > In such cases the underlying parser would interpret this octet as the > start of the defined application header and cause framing errors > which could cause data loss as allow for buffer overflow attacks of > carefully crafted binary data. > > There are also definitions which need to be made in the stadard for > what to do when less then the amount of bytes indicated by the > application layer frame header are or are not present. (e.g. more or > less bytes are required then are present during reception of the > given the [$CXX] application header sequence). > > It is based on these considerations among others that I recommend > that "$" [hexadecimal octet 0x24] be added to the reserved list and > if necessary an escaping mechanism be defined where it is replaced > with an escaped sequence which is agreed upon after consensus. > > Due to the fact that drafts also specify that RTSP can be extended > with any type of message so long as the data is not "$" the first > character it is ambiguous may also appear elsewhere in the status > line. > > There are also issues with the ambiguous definition of pdu > fragmentation defined in the latest draft, e.g. the mechanism defined > as possibly required when pdu's larger then 65535 bytes are used > however it specified no way to convey how this occurs or why. > > The same can also be said for "sink" and "source" however I will > address those definitions et al when appropriate. > > Thank you for your time! > > Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as > "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether > it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the > verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the > report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- RFC2326 (no draft string > recorded) -------------------------------------- Title > : Real Time Streaming Protocol (RTSP) Publication Date : April > 1998 Author(s) : H. Schulzrinne, A. Rao, R. Lanphier > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : > Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Area : Real-time > Applications and Infrastructure Stream : IETF Verifying > Party : IESG > > _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- . --------------060602090604010901030901 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings MMUSIC

Following up on this old thread, we have not seen any further e-mail exchanges that would change Magnus's recommendation to reject the errata in question. We plan to inform our ADs and the RFC Editor accordingly by Friday May 22nd. If you disagree with this, please let us know before then.

Thanks

-- Flemming (MMUSIC co-chair)


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC2326 (4199)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:35:51 +0100
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: rlb@ipv.sx, alissa@cooperw.in, fandreas@cisco.com, ari.keranen@ericsson.com
CC: juliusfriedman@gmail.com, mmusic@ietf.org


Hi,

Regarding this errata I recommend that it is being rejected. The reason
is that is is technical change that can cause compatibility issues, and
further does not resolve the issue as it is missing the required
escaping definitions (another technical change). In addition we know
that RFC 2326 is quite buggy and attempting to fix it with Errata does
not work.

However, as this issue is retained in RTSP 2.0 I like to comment on it
in that context. Thus, the question becomes should we fix this in RTSP 2.0?

Both version of RTSP allows binary non-escaped data in two places. The
message-body as well as the data portion of the Embedded binary data.
These parts can clearly contain a octet value of decimal 36 ("$"). Thus
these must be skipped by any parser using the provided length fields.
Thus, a very simple parser based on just looking for $ in a byte stream
will not work anyway. The parser must know what part of the message
structures it is in to be able to correctly parse and consume incoming
bytes over the RTSP connection.

Thus a parser must work on message basis. Which means that requests,
responses and embedded data must be possible to separate. This must be
done on the beggining of each chunk. Response starts with RTSP/2.0 and
can't contain $. Requests starts with the method name. Unfortunately the
ABNF is not explicit on forbidding a method name to start with a $.
However, the text in Section 13 is. We should clearly consider fixing
the ABNF so that it is explicit also in the ABNF.

However, taking the proposed step and moving $ into the reserved
category of characters will have much more significant impact. For
example, it will result in an URI format that is more restricted than
the general one. I haven't analysed the full impact of this. Nor have I
looked through all the headers which may contain values to see what
impact this has.

However, the current specification does not prevent correct separation
of RTSP messages from interleaved. It does require a message aware
parser and that parser could be tripped by malformed messages. If this
issue had been raised early in the RTSP 2.0 work, we could have resolved
it to a much greater satisfaction and been able to make the protocol
more robust.


Cheers

Magnus


On 2014-12-12 00:48, RFC Errata System wrote:
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC2326, "Real
> Time Streaming Protocol (RTSP)".
> 
> -------------------------------------- You may review the report
> below and at: 
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2326&eid=4199
> 
> -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by:
> Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com>
> 
> Section: 4
> 
> Original Text ------------- 4 RTSP Message
> 
> RTSP is a text-based protocol and uses the ISO 10646 character set
> in UTF-8 encoding (RFC 2279 [21]). Lines are terminated by CRLF, but 
> receivers should be prepared to also interpret CR and LF by 
> themselves as line terminators.
> 
> Text-based protocols make it easier to add optional parameters in a 
> self-describing manner. Since the number of parameters and the 
> frequency of commands is low, processing efficiency is not a concern.
> Text-based protocols, if done carefully, also allow easy 
> implementation of research prototypes in scripting languages such as
> Tcl, Visual Basic and Perl.
> 
> The 10646 character set avoids tricky character set switching, but is
> invisible to the application as long as US-ASCII is being used. This
> is also the encoding used for RTCP. ISO 8859-1 translates directly
> into Unicode with a high-order octet of zero. ISO 8859-1 characters
> with the most-significant bit set are represented as 1100001x
> 10xxxxxx. (See RFC 2279 [21])
> 
> RTSP messages can be carried over any lower-layer transport protocol 
> that is 8-bit clean.
> 
> Requests contain methods, the object the method is operating upon
> and parameters to further describe the method. Methods are
> idempotent, unless otherwise noted. Methods are also designed to
> require little or no state maintenance at the media server.
> 
> Corrected Text --------------
> 
> 
> 4 RTSP Message
> 
> RTSP is a text-based protocol and uses the ISO 10646 character set
> in UTF-8 encoding (RFC 2279 [21]). Lines are terminated by CRLF, but 
> receivers should be prepared to also interpret CR and LF by 
> themselves as line terminators.
> 
> Text-based protocols make it easier to add optional parameters in a 
> self-describing manner. Since the number of parameters and the 
> frequency of commands is low, processing efficiency is not a concern.
> Text-based protocols, if done carefully, also allow easy 
> implementation of research prototypes in scripting languages such as
> Tcl, Visual Basic and Perl.
> 
> The 10646 character set avoids tricky character set switching, but is
> invisible to the application as long as US-ASCII is being used. This
> is also the encoding used for RTCP. ISO 8859-1 translates directly
> into Unicode with a high-order octet of zero. ISO 8859-1 characters
> with the most-significant bit set are represented as 1100001x
> 10xxxxxx. (See RFC 2279 [21])
> 
> RTSP messages can be carried over any lower-layer transport protocol 
> that is 8-bit clean.
> 
> Requests contain methods, the object the method is operating upon
> and parameters to further describe the method. Methods are
> idempotent, unless otherwise noted. Methods are also designed to
> require little or no state maintenance at the media server.
> 
> *Please note the hexadecimal octet 0x36 should not be included in any
>  part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary
>  escaped sequence as defined in: <consensus>*.
> 
> Notes ----- Section [15.1 Base Syntax] makes the following
> definitions: .. safe               =  "$" | "-" | "_" | "." | "+" .. 
> reserved           =  ";" | "/" | "?" | ":" | "@" | "&" | "=" extra
> =  "!" | "*" | "$'$" | "(" | ")" | "," unreserved         =  alpha |
> digit | safe | extra xchar              =  unreserved | reserved |
> escape
> 
> However it doesn't explicitly state the association of "$"
> [hexadecimal 0x24]
> 
> Section [10.12 Embedded (Interleaved) Binary Data] specified a
> mechanism of transferring RTSP messages over a TCP connection with a
> application layer header consisting of the hexadecimal octet 0x24;
> followed by a single octet channel identifier and the RFC4571 length
> specifier of the frame.
> 
> Due to the fact 0x24 violates section 4's requirements based on the
> fact it cannot be masked with the octet (AND 0xc3) to ensure it is a
> valid character I am filing this errata.
> 
> The chosen octet may also be present, specifically in the types of
> RTSP messages which are interleaved during playback such as ANNOUNCE.
> E.g. 0x24 could be a part of the configuration specifying the bits
> per pixel or audio bit depth as part of the SDP inter alia.
> 
> In such cases the underlying parser would interpret this octet as the
> start of the defined application header and cause framing errors
> which could cause data loss as allow for buffer overflow attacks of
> carefully crafted binary data.
> 
> There are also definitions which need to be made in the stadard for
> what to do when less then the amount of bytes indicated by the
> application layer frame header are or are not present. (e.g. more or
> less bytes are required then are present during reception of the
> given the [$CXX] application header sequence).
> 
> It is based on these considerations among others that I recommend
> that "$" [hexadecimal octet 0x24] be added to the reserved list and
> if necessary an escaping mechanism be defined where it is replaced
> with an escaped sequence which is agreed upon after consensus.
> 
> Due to the fact that drafts also specify that RTSP can be extended
> with any type of message so long as the data is not "$" the first
> character it is ambiguous may also appear elsewhere in the status
> line.
> 
> There are also issues with the ambiguous definition of pdu
> fragmentation defined in the latest draft, e.g. the mechanism defined
> as possibly required when pdu's larger then 65535 bytes are used
> however it specified no way to convey how this occurs or why.
> 
> The same can also be said for "sink" and "source" however I will
> address those definitions et al when appropriate.
> 
> Thank you for your time!
> 
> Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as
> "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether
> it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the
> verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the
> report, if necessary.
> 
> -------------------------------------- RFC2326 (no draft string
> recorded) -------------------------------------- Title
> : Real Time Streaming Protocol (RTSP) Publication Date    : April
> 1998 Author(s)           : H. Schulzrinne, A. Rao, R. Lanphier 
> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD Source              :
> Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Area                : Real-time
> Applications and Infrastructure Stream              : IETF Verifying
> Party     : IESG
> 
> _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list 
> mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
> 


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                 | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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--------------060602090604010901030901-- From nobody Mon May 18 02:57:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67D01A8855; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x9u_bi9D2jJi; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA1511A883B; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f794d6d000004501-2b-5559b76e9fb3 Received: from ESESSHC016.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EF.4B.17665.E67B9555; Mon, 18 May 2015 11:57:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.210.2; Mon, 18 May 2015 11:57:01 +0200 Message-ID: <5559B76C.9000607@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:57:00 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , The IESG References: <20150512213044.30495.51553.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <555333B1.6050607@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvrW7e9shQg2d7BCz+/tzKaHHh7nUm ixl/JjJbTF3+mMWBxWPK742sHkuW/GTy+HL5M1sAcxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxu69e5gLLopX dM6wbmDcLdTFyMkhIWAi0fTyMAuELSZx4d56ti5GLg4hgaOMEhv+/oJyljNKPP/4nh2kildA W+LRx6esIDaLgKrEqSlHwWw2AQuJmz8a2UBsUYEoiYlfD7FA1AtKnJz5BMwWEfCWOPzuGzvI UGaBRYwSE9ubwRqEBdIlfpy7zAyxrQVo27rVQA4HB6eAvkTfgRIQk1nAXuLB1jKQcmYBeYnm rbOZQWwhoHsamjpYJzAKzkKybhZCxywkHQsYmVcxihanFhfnphsZ66UWZSYXF+fn6eWllmxi BIbywS2/dXcwrn7teIhRgINRiYc3gT8yVIg1say4MvcQozQHi5I4r1dXSKiQQHpiSWp2ampB alF8UWlOavEhRiYOTqkGRuO/e6usmVSfFuQZZPvohxctay95PYHfJICR13rvYvv2nPI6o3mJ E9Kcdqiwapcf2qd3wot/2aUV6dN3b5ITcSnO4p6bbdbxKMe6Ut+S58qSOEvJzrmX9k2y/Xij sN16IcPkk26qTw4e71XcPEuu9JSI66EtxSszt2vkz17ubbnxSMASswhbJZbijERDLeai4kQA hTxQwkYCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation.all@tools.ietf.org" , "mmusic \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 09:57:05 -0000 Alvaro Retana (aretana) skrev den 2015-05-13 15:11: > On 5/13/15, 7:21 AM, "Magnus Westerlund" > wrote: > > Magnus: > > Hi! > >>> >>> >>> >>> 2. Section 8 (Security Considerations) mentions the fact that "three way >>> latching as well as ICE mitigates these security issues and performs the >>> important return-routability check". Please add a reference to this >>> important check. I looked at RFC5245 (ICE), but could not find that >>> check described (just connectivity checks); is that what you're referring >>> to with a different name? >>> >> >> So the word return-routability check (really procedure) comes from >> mobile IPv6. The point of these checks is that each side does perform a >> check that I can send you a packet with a token, and you prove that you >> received it by echoing it back. Thus, preventing off-path attacks. In >> ICE this is done by the double sided connectivity checks. >> >> I suggest the following clarifications: >> >> >> In Section 4.3.6: >> The ICE >> connectivity checks with their random transaction IDs from the server >> to the client servers as return-routability check and prevents off- >> path attacker to succeed with address spoofing. Similar to Mobile >> IPV6's return routability procedure (Section 5.2.5 of [RFC3775]). > > For ICE, I would suggest pointing at RFC5245. A small nit on the text > (serves, not servers). > > NEW> > The ICE > connectivity checks [RFC5245] with their random transaction IDs from the > server > to the client serves as return-routability check and prevents off- > path attacker to succeed with address spoofing. > Thanks, I think that is unnecessary, as Section 4.3 is "ICE" and the earlier sub-sections contains the pointers to what ICE is. /Magnus > > >> >> >> >> In Section 4.6.5 >> >> The client to server nonce and its echoing back does not protect >> against on-patch attacker, including malicious clients. However, the >> server to client nonce and its echoing back prevents malicious >> clients to divert the media stream by spoofing the source address and >> port, as it can't echo back the nonce in these cases. Similar to >> the Mobile IPv6 return routability procedure (Section 5.2.5 of >> [RFC3775]) >> >> This way, the term is known to the reader by the time they come to the >> summary in the end. > > Looks good. > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue May 19 00:37:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3301ACDE4; Tue, 19 May 2015 00:37:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O9AyKzJL9PQd; Tue, 19 May 2015 00:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D771ACDCD; Tue, 19 May 2015 00:37:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150519073715.5126.28275.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 00:37:15 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 07:37:17 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Comparison of Different Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal Techniques for Media Controlled by Real-time Streaming Protocol (RTSP) Authors : Magnus Westerlund Thomas Zeng Filename : draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16.txt Pages : 44 Date : 2015-05-19 Abstract: This document describes several Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal techniques that were considered to be used for establishing the RTP media flows controlled by the Real-time Streaming Protocol (RTSP). Each technique includes a description of how it would be used, the security implications of using it and any other deployment considerations it has. There are also discussions on how NAT traversal techniques relate to firewalls and how each technique can be applied in different use cases. These findings were used when selecting the NAT traversal for RTSP 2.0, which is specified in a separate document. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue May 19 00:47:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73161ACDD4 for ; Tue, 19 May 2015 00:47:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NMAYOGy-v1oQ for ; Tue, 19 May 2015 00:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 964861ACDE9 for ; Tue, 19 May 2015 00:47:09 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79b66d000001131-51-555aea7bac09 Received: from ESESSHC014.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EF.53.04401.B7AEA555; Tue, 19 May 2015 09:47:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.62) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.210.2; Tue, 19 May 2015 09:47:06 +0200 Message-ID: <555AEA77.7070005@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 09:47:03 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <20150519073715.5126.28275.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20150519073715.5126.28275.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupjluLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Vrf6VVSoweyZahZTlz9mcWD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxrVpixgLDotXbH8yl62B8bRQFyMnh4SAicTyxYvZIGwxiQv3 1gPZXBxCAkcZJZYdXMgK4SxnlPjybBMzSBWvgLbEr5ObWEFsFgFViZ2H+tlBbDYBC4mbPxrB JokKRElM/HqIBaJeUOLkzCdgtoiAqMSji4vAeoUF/CTmHWwCqxcScJD4NO032HxOAUeJ/s2P gWo4OJgF7CUebC0DCTMLyEs0b53NDFGuLdHQ1ME6gVFgFpINsxA6ZiHpWMDIvIpRtDi1OCk3 3chYL7UoM7m4OD9PLy+1ZBMjMAAPbvmtuoPx8hvHQ4wCHIxKPLyKM6NChVgTy4orcw8xSnOw KInzenaFhAoJpCeWpGanphakFsUXleakFh9iZOLglGpgLI44nfItz1De6exdjRnqUYFSr3T3 sD0PyIhKv3boaJdZosDRlWeXCcza3DO1LLbrXdhWm5SDM2fG99/vT/j1fdqGjQvu6y81DFgT /ixkNtOWhiUvJExWiwo8dzT9bHzlzFKlP2oqzVe41vW9/aSQvlLZce6uV4K8n7uYdY5HGjM4 bvfz2XnqjxJLcUaioRZzUXEiANEQNdkhAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16.txt X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 07:47:19 -0000 WG, This version takes care of the feedback gotten during IESG review. The bigger change was to clarify that ICE connecitivity checks works as return routability check, similar to what is used in Mobile IP The second change is editorial and resulted in this sentence part: "Three way latching is significantly more secure than ..." Cheers Magnus Westerlund internet-drafts@ietf.org skrev den 2015-05-19 09:37: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : The Comparison of Different Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal Techniques for Media Controlled by Real-time Streaming Protocol (RTSP) > Authors : Magnus Westerlund > Thomas Zeng > Filename : draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16.txt > Pages : 44 > Date : 2015-05-19 > > Abstract: > This document describes several Network Address Translator (NAT) > traversal techniques that were considered to be used for establishing > the RTP media flows controlled by the Real-time Streaming Protocol > (RTSP). Each technique includes a description of how it would be > used, the security implications of using it and any other deployment > considerations it has. There are also discussions on how NAT > traversal techniques relate to firewalls and how each technique can > be applied in different use cases. These findings were used when > selecting the NAT traversal for RTSP 2.0, which is specified in a > separate document. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed May 20 11:25:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB54E1A8A27 for ; Wed, 20 May 2015 11:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YGAs3JwRVguy for ; Wed, 20 May 2015 11:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F2FE1A8A55 for ; Wed, 20 May 2015 11:25:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1746; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1432146344; x=1433355944; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:subject:message-id:date: to:mime-version; bh=YKh19GEbII2Sj8WGhIprIw1rTQxUK3CM/PzNOiiS+NY=; b=EaGfJAlD3l4FzD7hVnsQGeeP4g4ZbHyYLOCXwio/W65F1BWhxpOq7Tc4 z313Vb3GmKLFM0xTmgE5MYqhbdOg/Jm8h9cUHzUs8KgNBpExh7+HikS+t WkXActV/Z7SWettkYIxLRGciuUIDX2GALoYi5oLqc1lyM+dQ7Pc5mAjq1 Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BYBADx0FxV/5FdJa1cgxBUXsNcCYFQDIczOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEY4o8DZsMs3cLAQEBHpBcghdNHYEWBYVGhmqKF4cph2+PJSNhgzceMQGCRgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,465,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="151954382" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 May 2015 18:25:43 +0000 Received: from [10.24.69.110] ([10.24.69.110]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4KIPg8K016732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 20 May 2015 18:25:43 GMT From: =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=94=93Dan_Wing?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 11:25:42 -0700 To: mmusic@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Subject: [MMUSIC] prefer IPv6 for ICE dual stack fairness X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 18:25:51 -0000 Draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness needs to encourage a preference = for IPv6, rather than a fair race of IPv6/IPv4. There are lots of = reasons for that (mostly to help network operators), but recent Facebook = research shows preferring IPv6 helps the end user (see link below). I = wrote some suggested text, which might fit alright into the introduction = or a Rationale section. Some specific recommendation for algorithmic = tweaking in the normative section of the document would be needed, but I = don't want to erect that straw-man until folks agree there is value in = preferring IPv6. RFC6555 ("Happy Eyeballs") recommended giving IPv6 a = 150ms-250ms preference, but that may well be excessive for ICE. We = should consider if re-transmits (which can be detected with = draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data) should have an impact on the algorithm = or if it is premature to write that into a standard. Suggested text: "Although the initial connection time over an IP address family might often correlate to the faster performing network, the actual throughput, latency, and jitter is difficult to discern with only one or a few round trips of (small) ICE packets. Recent analysis indicates IPv6 throughput is often faster than IPv4 [Facebook], so implementations might want to give IPv6 a slight preference over IPv4 as was suggested by Happy Eyeballs [RFC6555]. In the future, other standards may actively probe IPv4/IPv6 paths or send traffic on multiple paths (e.g., [I-D.ietf-avtcore-mprtp], [I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-multipath])." [Facebook] = http://www.computerworld.com/article/2909628/the-future-is-here-you-may-al= ready-be-using-ipv6.html -d From nobody Wed May 20 17:21:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25F11ACD39 for ; Wed, 20 May 2015 17:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hNNW9aqnq9cl for ; Wed, 20 May 2015 17:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cserver5.myshophosting.com (cserver5.myshophosting.com [175.107.161.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39A5C1ACD48 for ; Wed, 20 May 2015 17:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp118-209-247-8.lns20.mel8.internode.on.net ([118.209.247.8]:50385 helo=[192.168.1.22]) by cserver5.myshophosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YvEFD-000307-MB for mmusic@ietf.org; Thu, 21 May 2015 10:21:51 +1000 Message-ID: <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:21:46 +1000 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic@ietf.org References: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cserver5.myshophosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - nteczone.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cserver5.myshophosting.com: authenticated_id: christian.groves@nteczone.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 00:21:56 -0000 Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over// // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol payloads// // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764 clause 4.1 it says: /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application data is// // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. Rather,// // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately.// / In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when application data is mentioned? Can only one add some clarity? Regards, Christian On 29/04/2015 10:08 PM, Christian Groves wrote: > Hello > > According to draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13 and > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08, multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over the > same port pair must be supported and application layer protocol > payloads over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets, i.e. RTP and > datachannel share the same address:port. > > I assume this needs to be specified in SDP by two m-lines bundled > together. E.g. one with "UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF" & one with "UDP/DTLS/SCTP" > . However I can't find in any of the related drafts where this is > stated. I would think the BUNDLE and JSEP drafts should mention > something about this. Is there a draft that I've missed where this is > stated? > > Regards, Christian > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > From nobody Thu May 21 02:34:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296B61A90C9 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 02:34:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pE5b3EGueq4n for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 02:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 276F91A90C0 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 02:34:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f798d6d0000009ec-47-555da697632e Received: from ESESSHC024.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3D.97.02540.796AD555; Thu, 21 May 2015 11:34:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.92) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.210.2; Thu, 21 May 2015 11:34:14 +0200 Message-ID: <555DA696.4040109@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:34:14 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Groves , References: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre70ZbGhBndWyVh8ed/IYjF1+WMW ByaPJUt+MnmsOD+TJYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStj/ud2loJHfBWnjqk0MH7h7mLk5JAQMJFY 07SFCcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DAUUaJeYtPMEM4yxklHt97xNrFyMHBK6Atsa8hHKSBRUBVYtnM vYwgNpuAhcTNH41sILaoQJTE1MfrWEBsXgFBiZMzn4DZIgLuEquvtjKD2MJAiz9d6GIFsYUE vCUO7poOVsMpoCNxd/NTdpBVzAL2Eg+2loGEmQXkJZq3zmaGKNeWaGjqYJ3AKDALyYZZCB2z kHQsYGRexShanFqclJtuZKSXWpSZXFycn6eXl1qyiREYkAe3/DbYwfjyueMhRgEORiUeXgWb 2FAh1sSy4srcQ4zSHCxK4ryeXSGhQgLpiSWp2ampBalF8UWlOanFhxiZODilGhjXFhVsrHFY 2mlvsG6L1EmDoEMuxlcCtsyzb9+9oHCJbpOGX0PU1idmu9Kj9bk9don877jezHFK+c6OO18n 3bO+YPNyfolB1c5/kasMa5Vyy6edv2ZU2s3aK5jCsXe/7c5l/5/sdirsmV2qec5/M8Ov35v1 53ZfcF4+2+Jme47DiRWflrZxl65UYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAbMpezykCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 09:34:19 -0000 Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: > Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used > for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: > > /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over// > // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// > // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol payloads// > // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ > > To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764 clause > 4.1 it says: > /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// > // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application data is// > // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. Rather,// > // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// > // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately.// > / > In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP or > RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS > connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of the > paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when application > data is mentioned? > > Can only one add some clarity? > Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu May 21 05:37:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BD31AD333 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 05:37:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YHB4_h1Xsi28 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 05:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84B0C1AD2C4 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 05:37:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5248; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1432211870; x=1433421470; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=MvZYD4KJ9DOnMhtXog+zMSDnQKcjny8a6VYWHD4AUsU=; b=A9IvTf88ABWWtTG4l3Ox9euk3xX8ixHeqKvDDd0VHm/h+LVe3IIjjtQK XsJ8QmqM1r9ej8g14mp7kEPlk0EF7q3RNvIIVD6d5M7yskSFD5nqIqqWG oAQaBz0imkcQD7aAtV7LmTKIW/3Dq7oYIWDtr/jGhVK9KohEMou69Oxyc c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0ASBQCV0F1V/5pdJa1cgxBUUQ0GgxnBRAyFK0oCHIEmTAEBAQEBAYELhCIBAQEDAQEBASAROgsFCwIBCBgCAiYCAgIlCxUQAgQOBYgkCA2sbqQbAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4EhihmEUjMHgmgvgRYFhUqKYYJPg1mDJ4QHiHmOJCNhgxdvAYFFgQEBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,468,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="421529660" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 May 2015 12:37:49 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com [173.37.183.84]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4LCbnMG003951 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 12:37:49 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.81]) by xhc-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([173.37.183.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 21 May 2015 07:37:49 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: "Dan Wing (dwing)" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] prefer IPv6 for ICE dual stack fairness Thread-Index: AQHQkypsYLBKK9dU3kqKVlgGrp2t/Z2Gm2GA Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:37:48 +0000 Message-ID: <6924B74F-C237-4822-8345-75EE71BB4A0F@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.197.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <675C8A55B688E745AAF25BC973191560@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] prefer IPv6 for ICE dual stack fairness X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:37:53 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4gT24gMjAgTWF5IDIwMTUsIGF0IDIwOjI1LCBEYW4gV2luZyAoZHdpbmcpIDxkd2lu Z0BjaXNjby5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gRHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tbXVzaWMtaWNlLWR1YWxzdGFj 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Zm8vbW11c2ljDQoNCg== From nobody Thu May 21 09:54:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1091A000B for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 09:54:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YpJSKcY0DqXL for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 09:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 371691A000A for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 09:54:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4794; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1432227253; x=1433436853; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=TSb7MdD1Q4/1REDOXpBO/SKkNlkP4aHmTDYEjhGdjSs=; b=XLC6a7PKm66aKZZXYFjd8mcmevFAE9XE1T1n0IrlBHPZRVxkDzKWi20g cKLnIo6ErKt5rulbP9nSWQEWWsGduHtYaKAdBZ8re33kicTO8MzzqitmM gexC3yAd8qcvpEnHIqHcaAJa1LJwqctxE+OfPGVNjCz0Nwx9FpUBlgs8+ 0=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,470,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="13773242" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 May 2015 16:54:12 +0000 Received: from [10.24.199.254] ([10.24.199.254]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4LGsBtR009213 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 21 May 2015 16:54:12 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=94=93Dan_Wing?= In-Reply-To: <6924B74F-C237-4822-8345-75EE71BB4A0F@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 09:54:11 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4EB5280A-5EF6-4BFD-A5C2-14BCFA0F7999@cisco.com> References: <6924B74F-C237-4822-8345-75EE71BB4A0F@cisco.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?P=C3=A5l_Martinsen?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] prefer IPv6 for ICE dual stack fairness X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 16:54:15 -0000 On 21-May-2015 05:37 am, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 >> On 20 May 2015, at 20:25, Dan Wing (dwing) wrote: >>=20 >> Draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness needs to encourage a = preference for IPv6, rather than a fair race of IPv6/IPv4. There are = lots of reasons for that (mostly to help network operators), but recent = Facebook research shows preferring IPv6 helps the end user (see link = below). I wrote some suggested text, which might fit alright into the = introduction or a Rationale section. =20 > Thanks for pointing this out and providing text. >=20 >> Some specific recommendation for algorithmic tweaking in the = normative section of the document would be needed, but I don't want to = erect that straw-man until folks agree there is value in preferring = IPv6. RFC6555 (=E2=80=9CHappy Eyeballs") recommended giving IPv6 a = 150ms-250ms preference, but that may well be excessive for ICE. =20 > Specific formulas and recommendations is removed from the draft. After = =E2=80=9Cexcessive=E2=80=9D threats that any formula would be nitpicked = to death, because getting such a formula wrong in a RFC would = potentially cause some harm. The way the draft is structured now give = hint on how to achieve fairness in a way that would not break interop = with existing implementations. >=20 > Section 4 do mention RFC 6555, adding some text suggesting the timing = proposed there is excessive for ICE usage is probably a good idea.=20 >=20 >> We should consider if re-transmits (which can be detected with = draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data) should have an impact on the algorithm = or if it is premature to write that into a standard. >>=20 > What is described in this draft should happen before any connectivity = check are sent. I think data like RTT and retransmits would be valuable = for ICE when choosing the active candidate pair. If we manage to go away = from alway using the highest priority pair.=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Suggested text: >>=20 >> "Although the initial connection time over an IP address family >> might often correlate to the faster performing network, the actual >> throughput, latency, and jitter is difficult to discern with only >> one or a few round trips of (small) ICE packets. =20 > Agree. But in this draft we have not even sent any packets. We are = just trying to figure out a =E2=80=9Cupfront and fair=E2=80=9D = distribution of the coming packets.=20 > Would adding the above text imply that there is a larger problem = needed to be solved? If so should we point out that this draft only = solves the upfront fairness packet distribution? Yes, probably want to say something like: "The quality of each candidate-pair path can be determined during ICE = connectivity checks (round-trip time, packet loss, jitter) and provide = further information regarding path quality. However, those connectivity = metrics do not always correlate to bandwidth or long-term path quality. = So, while this document describes how to fairly order the candidates, = the best path can be determined only by using that path." >=20 >> Recent analysis >> indicates IPv6 throughput is often faster than IPv4 [Facebook], so >> implementations might want to give IPv6 a slight preference over >> IPv4 as was suggested by Happy Eyeballs [RFC6555]. =20 > This is spot on. With current implementations this would ensure IPv6 = candidates winning due to a higher priority candidate pair. >=20 >> In the future, >> other standards may actively probe IPv4/IPv6 paths or send traffic >> on multiple paths (e.g., [I-D.ietf-avtcore-mprtp], >> [I-D.tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-multipath]).=E2=80=9D > Yes. ICE can help those actually do that by providing the above = protocol like mprtp with the valid list and initial RTT and retrans = values.=20 >=20 > To get a complete valid list the order of how you do checks does not = matter, you need to run through them all. But for finding a candidate = pair to send media on immediately the order of the checks do play a = role. Once a candidate pair is chosen, the rest of the checks can be = completed while media is happily flowing on the selected pair.=20 >=20 >>=20 >> [Facebook] = http://www.computerworld.com/article/2909628/the-future-is-here-you-may-al= ready-be-using-ipv6.html >>=20 > Can we point to sources like that in an RFC? We can point to stable references in an RFC. I would say = computerworld.com is not a stable reference. -d >=20 > .-. > P=C3=A5l-Erik >=20 >> -d >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >=20 From nobody Thu May 21 11:55:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB051A8761 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 11:55:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 463nCROwVbfH for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x22c.google.com (mail-yk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE9361A6FF5 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yked142 with SMTP id d142so18025567yke.3 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=x96RQdmlTi6Pz7naFA9a+nlO9y4ohgMNWqOr7JBxPpw=; b=RT5fbmxwgB8Ty2HjwQ0UX4Kh73j8WEZxWdwY3dsnqYyseqp2vXIMgNLR87tgXTfREU rhtbhAbyxwah3zbGrpgpAyNjHjZivfDU59ULZufvG3ujfMWFtE8nab7aU2yJXQzVDmY9 FRRmqyKulYMEADTIQec+wPpSA56P0yrhcHbJuQOBtm9mcPPDoe8Mu80Beuf/gZYssiln NBL4G1kLArU6v01evFF0Lx0hIFd7K/BpUFYmD8zAgVnl5Yb4hdMzmWagQL+GbKn24wES dlXt0riGjZMLgjORCebcvdo8V1v0uj036V+oCWCNHwtH8cafsusKSjBKIqr8bnwP0NBg iv8A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.106.74 with SMTP id l50mr4128198yhg.143.1432234504098; Thu, 21 May 2015 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.13.247.71 with HTTP; Thu, 21 May 2015 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> References: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:55:04 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Christian Groves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 18:55:05 -0000 On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian Groves wrote: > Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used for > SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same session are used to key SRTP. From nobody Thu May 21 12:05:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153341A887A for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 12:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EelNp3f0K5P8 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 12:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 333691A8876 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 12:05:06 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79b66d000001131-60-555e2c5f7757 Received: from ESESSHC024.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AF.15.04401.F5C2E555; Thu, 21 May 2015 21:05:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.71]) by ESESSHC024.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Thu, 21 May 2015 21:05:03 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Review of draft-begen-mmusic-rfc4566bis-iana-updates-01 Thread-Index: AdCT9o/VI+xohOBPT0uf/irjUKnBtA== Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 19:05:02 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D82ACB2@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D82ACB2ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvrW68TlyowedtVhYPts9ltPi3N8li 6vLHLA7MHlN+b2T1WLLkJ5PHl8uf2QKYo7hsUlJzMstSi/TtErgyvnY3MBV80a/YdnsrSwPj Y80uRk4OCQETied/jjBB2GISF+6tZ+ti5OIQEjjKKPHz2SomCGcxo8SEA/vZuxg5ONgELCS6 /2mDNIgIqEt83dvDDGIzCyRK7Gk5zwhSIizgIHH9rC5EiatEz60mJpCwiICexJIWsLUsAqoS fRumsYCEeQV8Jf5MYgQJMwJd8P3UGiaIgeISt57Mh7pMQGLJnvPMELaoxMvH/1ghbCWJFdsv MULU50ss7roFVs8rIChxcuYTlgmMwrOQjJqFpGwWkjKIuI7Egt2f2CBsbYllC18zw9hnDjxm QhZfwMi+ilG0OLU4KTfdyFgvtSgzubg4P08vL7VkEyMwlg5u+a26g/HyG8dDjAIcjEo8vAo2 saFCrIllxZW5hxilOViUxHk9u0JChQTSE0tSs1NTC1KL4otKc1KLDzEycXBKNTCGnNyd83Z2 +QtXbveK5J3vm7f6L1P5uPFhwqHvd1pefg+a8qPJzORPg/Ob2INfT1b4CBzovm+ROTu8aVmq ZkDmRcET5Y8kf31LauyfvvHkhoDycyv5juVkuTHuzPjddKGytKerV+IFT4PNibfV9teqPDw8 Z6u+zPlS1F71t7Lt7eTHKbk2T4KUWIozEg21mIuKEwEELT3VhgIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [MMUSIC] Review of draft-begen-mmusic-rfc4566bis-iana-updates-01 X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 19:05:09 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D82ACB2ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I have reviewed the rfc4566bis-iana-updates draft. In general the draft looks ok. Regarding whether the content should be incl= uded in 4566bis, or be published as a separate RFC, my personal preference = would be to include it in 4566bis. However, I can also live with a separate= RFC. I don't think it should update RFC 4566. I also have some editorial comments on section 3.1: Q1: The following sentence: "While there have been multiple network and address types have been registe= red so far..." ....does not parse. I suggest to remove "there have been" in the beginning = of the sentence: "While multiple network and address types have been registered so far..." Q2: Instead of saying "usable", I suggest to say "applicable". Q3: In the table, would it be more clear to replace "SDP Name" with "nettype"? Q4: Instead of saying that the author "has to check" whether a new address type= is usable/applicable with the existing network types, I'd say that author = has to define with which addrtypes (new and existing) the new address type = is applicable. Thanks! Regards, Christer --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D82ACB2ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

I have reviewed the rfc4566bis-iana-updates draft.

 

In general the draft looks ok. Regarding whether the= content should be included in 4566bis, or be published as a separate RFC, = my personal preference would be to include it in 4566bis. However, I can al= so live with a separate RFC. I don’t think it should update RFC 4566.

 

I also have some editorial comments on section 3.1:<= o:p>

 

Q1:

 

The following sentence:

 

“While there have been multiple network and ad= dress types have been registered so far…”

 

….does not parse. I suggest to remove “t= here have been” in the beginning of the sentence:

 

“While multiple network and address types have= been registered so far…”

 

 

Q2:

 

Instead of saying “usable”, I suggest to= say “applicable”.

 

 

Q3:

 

In the table, would it be more clear to replace R= 20;SDP Name” with “nettype”?

 

 

Q4:

 

Instead of saying that the author “has to chec= k” whether a new address type is usable/applicable with the existing = network types, I’d say that author has to define with which addrtypes= (new and existing) the new address type is applicable.

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

Christer

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D82ACB2ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Thu May 21 14:54:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A65B1A889D for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 12:38:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.732 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.732 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HEen6yb00ifX for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 12:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msk-mail-app01.ti.ru (msk-mail-app01.ti.ru [89.20.149.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2121A8771 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 12:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [151.252.66.14] (account fas_vm@surguttel.ru HELO surguttel.ru) by msk-mail-app01.ti.ru (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.20) with ESMTPA id 11174226 for mmusic@ietf.org; Thu, 21 May 2015 22:38:32 +0300 From: "Anton Tveretin" To: mmusic@ietf.org Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 00:38:03 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <555E341B.8310.111E501@fas_vm.surguttel.ru> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.70) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 150521-1, 21.05.2015), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:54:44 -0700 Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15 X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 19:38:37 -0000 Hello Mark, and all! I want to focus on media types right now. Sorry, if I missed some discussion. Are they the same namespace as MIME types? I think that clarification is needed. IIRC the first FRC 2723 was also unclear, the second RFC 4566 stated that they form a separate namespace. Personally, I don't see a reason for this; MIME types list is fairly short, stable for a long time. Surely, MIME subtypes are distinct from formats. Also, the type image/t38 is in use (AFAIK implementations exist). So "image" type must be added to the I-D. Regards, Anton From nobody Fri May 22 00:03:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F771AC3C6 for ; Fri, 22 May 2015 00:03:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kh_WSE9qr06q for ; Fri, 22 May 2015 00:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E4B51AC428 for ; 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Fri, 22 May 2015 07:03:52 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.253]) by xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([173.37.183.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 22 May 2015 02:03:52 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Dan Wing (dwing)" , "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] prefer IPv6 for ICE dual stack fairness Thread-Index: AQHQkypsnkvCdssTWkyTq0G+UqvgzJ2Gs2AAgABHoYCAAJlBEA== Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 07:03:52 +0000 Message-ID: <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A4785A329@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> References: <6924B74F-C237-4822-8345-75EE71BB4A0F@cisco.com> <4EB5280A-5EF6-4BFD-A5C2-14BCFA0F7999@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4EB5280A-5EF6-4BFD-A5C2-14BCFA0F7999@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.65.37.83] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] prefer IPv6 for ICE dual stack fairness X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 07:03:57 -0000 PiANCj4gWWVzLCBwcm9iYWJseSB3YW50IHRvIHNheSBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZToNCj4gDQo+ICAg IlRoZSBxdWFsaXR5IG9mIGVhY2ggY2FuZGlkYXRlLXBhaXIgcGF0aCBjYW4gYmUgZGV0ZXJtaW5l ZCBkdXJpbmcgSUNFDQo+IGNvbm5lY3Rpdml0eSBjaGVja3MgKHJvdW5kLXRyaXAgdGltZSwgcGFj a2V0IGxvc3MsIGppdHRlcikgYW5kIHByb3ZpZGUgZnVydGhlcg0KPiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiByZWdh cmRpbmcgcGF0aCBxdWFsaXR5LiAgSG93ZXZlciwgdGhvc2UgY29ubmVjdGl2aXR5IG1ldHJpY3Mg ZG8NCj4gbm90IGFsd2F5cyBjb3JyZWxhdGUgdG8gYmFuZHdpZHRoIG9yIGxvbmctdGVybSBwYXRo IHF1YWxpdHkuICBTbywgd2hpbGUgdGhpcw0KPiBkb2N1bWVudCBkZXNjcmliZXMgaG93IHRvIGZh aXJseSBvcmRlciB0aGUgY2FuZGlkYXRlcywgdGhlIGJlc3QgcGF0aCBjYW4gYmUNCj4gZGV0ZXJt aW5lZCBvbmx5IGJ5IHVzaW5nIHRoYXQgcGF0aC4iDQo+IA0KDQpXRk0uIFdlIGNhbiBzaXRlIHRo ZSBhYm92ZSB0aGUgdGV4dCBpbiB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQoNCi1UaXJ1DQo= From nobody Fri May 22 00:20:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7901C1ACE07 for ; Fri, 22 May 2015 00:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GDM54pamClJu for ; Fri, 22 May 2015 00:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cserver5.myshophosting.com (cserver5.myshophosting.com [175.107.161.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6C691ACDF6 for ; Fri, 22 May 2015 00:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp118-209-46-66.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net ([118.209.46.66]:52468 helo=[192.168.1.22]) by cserver5.myshophosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YvhFZ-0008VW-Kl for mmusic@ietf.org; Fri, 22 May 2015 17:20:09 +1000 Message-ID: <555ED8A4.9080601@nteczone.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 17:20:04 +1000 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic@ietf.org References: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> <555DA696.4040109@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <555DA696.4040109@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cserver5.myshophosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - nteczone.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cserver5.myshophosting.com: authenticated_id: christian.groves@nteczone.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 07:20:13 -0000 Hello Magnus and Martin, Thanks for confirming that. It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the BUNDLE and JSEP drafts. Regards, Christian On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian Groves wrote: > Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used for > SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same session are used to key SRTP. On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used >> for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >> >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >> >> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over// >> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol >> payloads// >> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >> >> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764 clause >> 4.1 it says: >> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application >> data is// >> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. >> Rather,// >> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// >> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately.// >> / >> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP or >> RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS >> connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of the >> paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when application >> data is mentioned? >> >> Can only one add some clarity? >> > > Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From nobody Sun May 24 18:59:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BCE1A88A5 for ; Sun, 24 May 2015 18:59:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xZCwgBjvNoyF for ; Sun, 24 May 2015 18:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D89071A8897 for ; Sun, 24 May 2015 18:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f794d6d000004501-2b-556281f9cac9 Received: from ESESSHC013.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 4F.28.17665.9F182655; Mon, 25 May 2015 03:59:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.71]) by ESESSHC013.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.57]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Mon, 25 May 2015 03:59:20 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Christian Groves , "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? Thread-Index: AQHQgnU9Pbi5pw9Q70Sm/MiD8Y5LCp2FkcwAgACaWwCAAWzZAIAEfezg Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 01:59:20 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D84AF09@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> <555DA696.4040109@ericsson.com> <555ED8A4.9080601@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <555ED8A4.9080601@nteczone.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre7PxqRQgyu/FCy+vG9ksZi6/DGL A5PHkiU/mTxWnJ/JEsAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXx8YZdwT+JimWHLzE2ME4R6WLk5JAQMJE4 vfUhI4QtJnHh3no2EFtI4CijxJpPYRD2YkaJ9Zdjuxg5ONgELCS6/2mDhEUEoiUmLWwGKxcG GrPz8jkWiLipRP+XlYwQtpvE7NtXwOIsAqoSb+7dAbLZOXgFfCXeiHcxcgEN72WUaDvwDayc U0BH4u3VT2DljEDXfD+1hgnEZhYQl7j1ZD4TxJUCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+xwphK0k0LnnCClGv J3Fj6hQ2CFtbYtnC12D1vAKCEidnPmGZwCg6C8nYWUhaZiFpmYWkZQEjyypG0eLU4uLcdCNj vdSizOTi4vw8vbzUkk2MwPg4uOW37g7G1a8dDzEKcDAq8fAuMEgMFWJNLCuuzD3EKM3BoiTO 69UVEiokkJ5YkpqdmlqQWhRfVJqTWnyIkYmDU6qBse6LQkt4mvRiefmetAT7HnYnS8tjJqWm xR12Xe0H+t48m9bY/ML0fPqrX7LOZ9I+hbtmy79Kr3h091upmNqcrnWxm8IaJt1ktzZ7q5IV d8fVUOiLYSbzLM+dIZE3/2aeOfz22V4ra/8Fsg29LP8yJr7LeCBnL3M0+MiP2xEX3fJe7VDf 3ROnxFKckWioxVxUnAgAga9rP3ACAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 01:59:28 -0000 Hi, I wonder whether we should have a "DTLS considerations" section in BUNDLE, = and specify that all bundled media MUST use the same DTLS connection for ke= y management, encryption etc. Would it even be possible to establish multiple DTLS connections on a singl= e 5-tuple? Regards, Christer -----Original Message----- From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian Groves Sent: 22 May 2015 10:20 To: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? Hello Magnus and Martin, Thanks for confirming that. It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the BUNDL= E and JSEP drafts. Regards, Christian On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian Groves w= rote: > Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used=20 > for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same session are = used to key SRTP. On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is=20 >> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >> >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >> >> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over// >> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol=20 >> payloads// >> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >> >> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764=20 >> clause >> 4.1 it says: >> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application=20 >> data is// >> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. =20 >> Rather,// >> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// >> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately.// >> / >> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP=20 >> or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS=20 >> connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of=20 >> the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when=20 >> application data is mentioned? >> >> Can only one add some clarity? >> > > Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic From nobody Mon May 25 00:14:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4589A1B2AF6 for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 00:14:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e0aM-YRYT_hg for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 00:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 250A81B2AF7 for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 00:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f794d6d000004501-a2-5562cbe6cce0 Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EB.CD.17665.6EBC2655; Mon, 25 May 2015 09:14:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.71]) by ESESSHC012.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.54]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Mon, 25 May 2015 09:14:46 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Christian Groves , "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal Thread-Index: AdCWueoLsROxlWDYR6SbmQrUuOlHng== Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 07:14:46 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre7z00mhBssP8lp8ed/IYjF1+WMW ByaPJUt+MnmsOD+TJYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSvjx+GHrAU3lCrurXJtYPwr3cXIySEhYCLx 69BLZghbTOLCvfVsXYxcHEICRxklbn0+zQrhLGaU+NLTyNTFyMHBJmAh0f1PG6RBRCBaYtLC ZjYQW1jAReLXkh4WiLirxIrnv5khbD2Jn20PWUFsFgFVic8TfzGC2LwCvhITl5xjArEZgRZ/ P7UGzGYWEJe49WQ+E8RBAhJL9pyHOk5U4uXjf6wQtpLE2sPbWSDq9SRuTJ3CBmFrSyxb+JoZ Yr6gxMmZT1gmMArPQjJ2FpKWWUhaZiFpWcDIsopRtDi1uDg33chYL7UoM7m4OD9PLy+1ZBMj MOgPbvmtu4Nx9WvHQ4wCHIxKPLwKTUmhQqyJZcWVuYcYpTlYlMR5vbpCQoUE0hNLUrNTUwtS i+KLSnNSiw8xMnFwSjUwMt/s2eXYdiBzybP9K++fmcqR8PyWVJPY52sMUWpduVozFl7xYaqr 2724tmBGIOf5OzsWnRLUupod9TlhavVb0WK250UxVf+1Vl8yn2N5cX+dzpmdXfznhE4uWaYU vebjhaXODe7fmmd+bVINbt33VfbJtn9JezvStkTti+N80jg9szC7pMxvnRJLcUaioRZzUXEi AIHoAOdbAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 07:14:54 -0000 Hi, Below is a suggestion for a "DTLS considerations" section. Let me know if y= ou think there are more rules/restrictions that we should document. -------------------- X. DTLS Considerations One or more media streams within a BUNDLE group can use the Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) protocol [RFC6347] in order to encrypt the data, or to negotiate encryption keys if another encryption mechanism is used to encrypt media. When DTLS is used for more than one media stream within a BUNDLE group, the following rules apply: o A single DTLS association [RFC6347] MUST be used for all media using DTLS; and =09 o Each media protocol using DTLS MUST use the same mechanism for determining which endpoint (the offerer or answerer) becomes DTLS client a= nd DTLS server. -------------------- Regards, Christer =20 -----Original Message----- From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmber= g Sent: 25 May 2015 04:59 To: Christian Groves; mmusic@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? Hi, I wonder whether we should have a "DTLS considerations" section in BUNDLE, = and specify that all bundled media MUST use the same DTLS connection for ke= y management, encryption etc. Would it even be possible to establish multiple DTLS connections on a singl= e 5-tuple? Regards, Christer -----Original Message----- From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian Groves Sent: 22 May 2015 10:20 To: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? Hello Magnus and Martin, Thanks for confirming that. It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the BUNDL= E and JSEP drafts. Regards, Christian On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian Groves w= rote: > Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used=20 > for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same session are = used to key SRTP. On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is=20 >> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >> >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >> >> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over// >> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol=20 >> payloads// >> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >> >> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764=20 >> clause >> 4.1 it says: >> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application=20 >> data is// >> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. =20 >> Rather,// >> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// >> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately.// >> / >> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP=20 >> or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS=20 >> connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of=20 >> the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when=20 >> application data is mentioned? >> >> Can only one add some clarity? >> > > Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic From nobody Mon May 25 09:17:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28351AC3B6 for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 09:17:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3qzzu9WjSU4f for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 09:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF2441AC3B4 for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 09:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-20v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.116]) by resqmta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id YGGz1q0032XD5SV01GH1yH; Mon, 25 May 2015 16:17:01 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-20v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id YGH01q00E3Ge9ey01GH0cu; Mon, 25 May 2015 16:17:01 +0000 Message-ID: <55634AFB.3030606@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 12:16:59 -0400 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic@ietf.org References: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> <555DA696.4040109@ericsson.com> <555ED8A4.9080601@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D84AF09@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D84AF09@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1432570621; bh=d4FxC6543Dt5WRv5V7nRIq99qiGIas4KYHJXqusen0w=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=bD7u+N1p/cSoRYNy168oE/TW8UMhkgWP9Ho4lV9vLV7h7SyIvSwNVcVbzs7PiP/pA alYWlu3YxCU4U11yKE5EDrT8/V0aEkoNLfVl516XTrTfELRjL7IGKZR1TNrpnF3eKm pYqglyKI15Zb0No+dYrBK+3vuFZYW1Qw5bf8Cb28xx2DUH4hEX9V3PeH0DLQYBEt4M imPj/9Y1OQ/j60HNfbFkI8LgjJ5pGXtUZoWX1kKkooXS9V8YSPdZpIC6Uo+9Elrf5R HGHKHq48ypSnUmMnkJZvDvt7yHp/8KuzoPbDRjVURA3RefmRN68Ygm/LwCMbLVmCmx Sa1ueEw4j38VQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 16:17:03 -0000 On 5/24/15 9:59 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > > I wonder whether we should have a "DTLS considerations" section in BUNDLE, and specify that all bundled media MUST use the same DTLS connection for key management, encryption etc. Yes, that makes sense. > Would it even be possible to establish multiple DTLS connections on a single 5-tuple? I don't think so. Note that RTP is "special" in this regard, in that it uses DTLS for the keying, but it doesn't use DTLS payload packets. If there were more than one m-line that used DTLS payload packets then they would also have to specify how to multiplex among them. AFAIK there is currently no way to do that, so there can only be one m-line that uses DTLS payload packets. Thanks, Paul > Regards, > > Christer > > -----Original Message----- > From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian Groves > Sent: 22 May 2015 10:20 > To: mmusic@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? > > Hello Magnus and Martin, > > Thanks for confirming that. > > It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the BUNDLE and JSEP drafts. > > Regards, Christian > > > > On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian Groves wrote: > >> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used >> for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? > > Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same session are used to key SRTP. > > > > On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is >>> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >>> >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >>> >>> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over// >>> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >>> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol >>> payloads// >>> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >>> >>> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764 >>> clause >>> 4.1 it says: >>> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >>> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application >>> data is// >>> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. >>> Rather,// >>> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// >>> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately.// >>> / >>> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP >>> or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS >>> connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of >>> the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when >>> application data is mentioned? >>> >>> Can only one add some clarity? >>> >> >> Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. >> >> Cheers >> >> Magnus Westerlund >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >> Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > From nobody Mon May 25 09:22:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F941AC3F3 for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 09:22:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ttsQPJapm85e for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 09:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 677C81AC3F0 for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 09:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.100]) by resqmta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id YGN81q0072AWL2D01GNEpC; Mon, 25 May 2015 16:22:14 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id YGND1q00K3Ge9ey01GNDEb; Mon, 25 May 2015 16:22:14 +0000 Message-ID: <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 12:22:12 -0400 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic@ietf.org References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1432570934; bh=LCd+JyCGHypDn9shU/8618ggn3PPrbIBwPXUTxChYys=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=ncsVnjVjqXyPB5H52nojgQkHaZJYM7GSB8c2XH+AAg4eneJADqr/D++hY4w89LZJg 7n28CVsR+PYfaLLu0NaSLXoe1HbsdLFKGXKVCIlpaEBy9ywT7DOyAMiSvuftRjm0fA DInvzm+cFWcx3iiafkT1/+5zNjWgSH3pbMQgz3PRO424dEiZYkB1vZAEgi/JEbmSZG WU8EUNK4vpMZmeBm5IRmaG1g16Alaw+2YyDc5HXJcbz9yYPhfNW8DqaeY52lgxSw/e 3Dx/LFLTOmPDs0vjumDVQTySF6adZHWPRSsQLiuzJ2Q75enazSo2RVcMswPuhV8ZIG UNEo6pbsRjlaw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 16:22:17 -0000 On 5/25/15 3:14 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > > Below is a suggestion for a "DTLS considerations" section. Let me know if you think there are more rules/restrictions that we should document. My reply to your other message implies that it is probably important to say more than this. Also, I *think* it is possible to mix RTP over UDP with RTP over DTLS in the same bundle. (Though I can't think of any utility to doing so.) I don't think what you say below is inconsistent with that, but it might be good to think through the implications. Thanks, Paul > -------------------- > > X. DTLS Considerations > > One or more media streams within a BUNDLE group can use > the Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) protocol [RFC6347] > in order to encrypt the data, or to negotiate encryption keys > if another encryption mechanism is used to encrypt media. > > When DTLS is used for more than one media stream within a BUNDLE > group, the following rules apply: > > o A single DTLS association [RFC6347] MUST be used for all media > using DTLS; and > > o Each media protocol using DTLS MUST use the same mechanism for > determining which endpoint (the offerer or answerer) becomes DTLS client and DTLS server. > > -------------------- > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg > Sent: 25 May 2015 04:59 > To: Christian Groves; mmusic@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? > > Hi, > > I wonder whether we should have a "DTLS considerations" section in BUNDLE, and specify that all bundled media MUST use the same DTLS connection for key management, encryption etc. > > Would it even be possible to establish multiple DTLS connections on a single 5-tuple? > > Regards, > > Christer > > -----Original Message----- > From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian Groves > Sent: 22 May 2015 10:20 > To: mmusic@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? > > Hello Magnus and Martin, > > Thanks for confirming that. > > It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the BUNDLE and JSEP drafts. > > Regards, Christian > > > > On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian Groves wrote: > >> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used >> for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? > > Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same session are used to key SRTP. > > > > On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is >>> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >>> >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >>> >>> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over// >>> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >>> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol >>> payloads// >>> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >>> >>> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764 >>> clause >>> 4.1 it says: >>> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >>> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application >>> data is// >>> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. >>> Rather,// >>> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// >>> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately.// >>> / >>> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP >>> or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS >>> connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of >>> the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when >>> application data is mentioned? >>> >>> Can only one add some clarity? >>> >> >> Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. >> >> Cheers >> >> Magnus Westerlund >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >> Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > From nobody Mon May 25 17:50:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05841ACEEE for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 17:50:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jHg4LY8c2pKL for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 17:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 085701ACEED for ; Mon, 25 May 2015 17:50:03 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79b66d000001131-9e-5563c33963bb Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 62.23.04401.933C3655; Tue, 26 May 2015 02:50:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.71]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Tue, 26 May 2015 02:50:01 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Paul Kyzivat , "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? Thread-Index: AQHQgnU9Pbi5pw9Q70Sm/MiD8Y5LCp2FkcwAgACaWwCAAWzZAIAEfezggADPFoCAAK6FcA== Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 00:50:01 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D85B54A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> <555DA696.4040109@ericsson.com> <555ED8A4.9080601@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D84AF09@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634AFB.3030606@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <55634AFB.3030606@alum.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvra7V4eRQg6YWVoupyx+zWKzYcIDV gcnj7/sPTB5LlvxkCmCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mp437uQveCYSsWRK78YGxg3yHYxcnJICJhI XLm2lBnCFpO4cG89WxcjF4eQwFFGifvrjjJCOIsZJb4caQCq4uBgE7CQ6P6nDdIgIuAr8ezx bTYQWxho0M7L51gg4qYS/V9WMkLYYRJv1+4Fq2ERUJXoWXcZzOYF6p28dh0LxPzPjBIvtvSA XcEpoCNx+fFkMJsR6KLvp9YwgdjMAuISt57MZ4K4VEBiyZ7zUFeLSrx8/I8VwlaSWHt4OwtE vZ7EjalT2CBsbYllC18zQywWlDg58wnLBEbRWUjGzkLSMgtJyywkLQsYWVYxihanFiflphsZ 66UWZSYXF+fn6eWllmxiBEbKwS2/VXcwXn7jeIhRgINRiYdXsSkpVIg1say4MvcQozQHi5I4 r2dXSKiQQHpiSWp2ampBalF8UWlOavEhRiYOTqkGRvm5dzsO7jq669PuwLZaTlftdYWLl708 qd994ljD8eyPv0WihQPWP3i0sGUPi4Kp/87NbSfKJtcGrn/71XHuJNV0nT3Xeq7NSTOT23Y2 Xmbxv9cqN88mnzW+azhl+gmHlVLdfNtOrfX/87Ju6f2P4bXekxa/br19UjTm71WxwJhrzyaI l5eZvlmpxFKckWioxVxUnAgAGcdJ03UCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 00:50:06 -0000 Hi, >> I wonder whether we should have a "DTLS considerations" section in=20 >> BUNDLE, and specify that all bundled media MUST use the same DTLS=20 >> connection for key management, encryption etc. > > Yes, that makes sense. > >> Would it even be possible to establish multiple DTLS connections on a si= ngle 5-tuple? > > I don't think so. > > Note that RTP is "special" in this regard, in that it uses DTLS for the k= eying, but=20 > it doesn't use DTLS payload packets. > > If there were more than one m-line that used DTLS payload packets then th= ey=20 > would also have to specify how to multiplex among them. AFAIK there is cu= rrently=20 > no way to do that, so there can only be one m-line that uses DTLS payload= packets. This is covered in section 9. Section 9.2 contains the following statement: "[RFC5764] does not describe how to identify different protocols transported on DTLS, only how to identify the DTLS protocol itself. If multiple protocols are transported on DTLS, there MUST exist a specification describing a mechanism for identifying each individual protocol. In addition, if a received DTLS packet can be associated with more than one "m=3D" line, there MUST exist a specification which describes a mechanism for associating the received DTLS packet with the correct "m=3D" line." Regards, Christer > -----Original Message----- > From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian=20 > Groves > Sent: 22 May 2015 10:20 > To: mmusic@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? > > Hello Magnus and Martin, > > Thanks for confirming that. > > It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the BUN= DLE and JSEP drafts. > > Regards, Christian > > > > On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian Groves = wrote: > >> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is=20 >> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? > > Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same session ar= e used to key SRTP. > > > > On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is=20 >>> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >>> >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >>> >>> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over/= / >>> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >>> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol >>> payloads// >>> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >>> >>> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764=20 >>> clause >>> 4.1 it says: >>> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >>> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application >>> data is// >>> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. >>> Rather,// >>> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// >>> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately./= / >>> / >>> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP=20 >>> or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS=20 >>> connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of=20 >>> the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when=20 >>> application data is mentioned? >>> >>> Can only one add some clarity? >>> >> >> Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. >> >> Cheers >> >> Magnus Westerlund >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic From nobody Tue May 26 05:56:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828CF1B2B5B; Tue, 26 May 2015 05:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2HTApI18aNkY; Tue, 26 May 2015 05:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F23E1B2B5D; Tue, 26 May 2015 05:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150526125644.14220.87065.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 05:56:44 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: mmusic chair , mmusic mailing list , RFC Editor Subject: [MMUSIC] Document Action: 'The Comparison of Different Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal Techniques for Media Controlled by Real-time Streaming Protocol (RTSP)' to Informational RFC (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16.txt) X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 12:56:48 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'The Comparison of Different Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal Techniques for Media Controlled by Real-time Streaming Protocol (RTSP)' (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation-16.txt) as Informational RFC This document is the product of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Ben Campbell and Alissa Cooper. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-evaluation/ Technical Summary The document describes several Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal techniques that were considered to be used for establishing the RTP media flows controlled by the Real-time Streaming Protocol (RTSP). Each technique includes a description on how it would be used, the security implications of using it and any other deployment considerations it has. There are also discussions on how NAT traversal techniques relate to firewalls and how each technique can be applied in different use cases. These findings were used when selecting the NAT traversal for RTSP 2.0, which is specified in a separate document. Working Group Summary The RTSP specification (RFC 2326 and RFC2326bis) has long suffered from lack of a standardized NAT traversal mechanism and hence there was a desire to rectify that. The WG decided to investigate different approaches to RTSP NAT traversal before chosing one, and as a result, the initial WG version of this document appeared in 2007. Since the document is a companion to RTSP 2.0, progress on the document was to some extent gated on RTSP 2.0 progress, but a WGLC was issued in the latter part of 2012. The WGLC concluded that the (at the time current) version of the document was partially based on now obsolete NAT-related RFCs and considerations and as a result the authors updated the document to better reflect current RFCs and recommendations in the area. A WGLC was issued on this updated document in May 2013 on this document with no major comments received (2 people are known to have actively reviewed the latest versions). Document Quality The document does not specify any particular protocol but is rather an investigation into possible protocol choices and as such there are no specific considerations around implementations, MIB, media type, etc. reviews. The document quality is good from both a technical and readability point of view. Personnel Flemming Andreasen is the document shepherd. Alissa Cooper is the responsible AD. From nobody Tue May 26 07:03:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7115B1B2EB0 for ; Tue, 26 May 2015 07:03:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PIPmyNotjHoD for ; Tue, 26 May 2015 07:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-po-08v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-08v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:167]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3BA41B2EAA for ; Tue, 26 May 2015 07:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-po-07v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.231]) by resqmta-po-08v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Ye311q0064zp9eg01e3nk7; Tue, 26 May 2015 14:03:47 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-po-07v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Ye3m1q00Q3Ge9ey01e3nfz; Tue, 26 May 2015 14:03:47 +0000 Message-ID: <55647D42.60900@alum.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 10:03:46 -0400 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christer Holmberg , "mmusic@ietf.org" References: <5540C9BA.4090803@nteczone.com> <555D251A.4020004@nteczone.com> <555DA696.4040109@ericsson.com> <555ED8A4.9080601@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D84AF09@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634AFB.3030606@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D85B54A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D85B54A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1432649027; bh=DCUNEBmMtZEOOdG2uk8xfM2tTGZaK5O+HciAgeJ7iwo=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=A67avPogIGiSpuZxAXImyFIp2Esf4SbeZTLVhdmVWHm91dzvb18ci/frX6pho3Koc YAkIbmKrh4rJzpYD4PHDLu64PVlq5gKicZvNuc+4OPmjsKria6w8xXPfA20uxmwPpF xs1F4zX+C8A8lbH2EL7Z1OYevMbAHQ3ti1u9eBlYVLVNllQNS8UDjWBny4lNFFfa5r MGnzww0Z0P6S7puyY18oow6O6AtgYsYwWIYGf3w+rQF8GAX6Ae5lbBOQVyIWsmMw+3 tjCSa7Ay/AGa1dNn3bMsAGiEqVEyF9s8wGzLQH5mi7xQeASf0JbihhIsXm8oPL1IOs lyQxHzqqyCRMA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 14:03:51 -0000 On 5/25/15 8:50 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > >>> I wonder whether we should have a "DTLS considerations" section in >>> BUNDLE, and specify that all bundled media MUST use the same DTLS >>> connection for key management, encryption etc. >> >> Yes, that makes sense. >> >>> Would it even be possible to establish multiple DTLS connections on a single 5-tuple? >> >> I don't think so. >> >> Note that RTP is "special" in this regard, in that it uses DTLS for the keying, but >> it doesn't use DTLS payload packets. >> >> If there were more than one m-line that used DTLS payload packets then they >> would also have to specify how to multiplex among them. AFAIK there is currently >> no way to do that, so there can only be one m-line that uses DTLS payload packets. > > This is covered in section 9. OK. Sorry. Paul > Section 9.2 contains the following statement: > > "[RFC5764] does not describe how to identify different protocols > transported on DTLS, only how to identify the DTLS protocol itself. > If multiple protocols are transported on DTLS, there MUST exist a > specification describing a mechanism for identifying each individual > protocol. In addition, if a received DTLS packet can be associated > with more than one "m=" line, there MUST exist a specification which > describes a mechanism for associating the received DTLS packet with > the correct "m=" line." > > Regards, > > Christer > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian >> Groves >> Sent: 22 May 2015 10:20 >> To: mmusic@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? >> >> Hello Magnus and Martin, >> >> Thanks for confirming that. >> >> It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the BUNDLE and JSEP drafts. >> >> Regards, Christian >> >> >> >> On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian Groves wrote: >> >>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is >>> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >> >> Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same session are used to key SRTP. >> >> >> >> On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >>>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is >>>> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >>>> >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >>>> >>>> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP over// >>>> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >>>> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol >>>> payloads// >>>> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >>>> >>>> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764 >>>> clause >>>> 4.1 it says: >>>> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >>>> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application >>>> data is// >>>> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. >>>> Rather,// >>>> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, which// >>>> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them appropriately.// >>>> / >>>> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP >>>> or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS >>>> connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of >>>> the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when >>>> application data is mentioned? >>>> >>>> Can only one add some clarity? >>>> >>> >>> Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Magnus Westerlund >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >>> Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > From nobody Wed May 27 01:43:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83351A9035 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 01:43:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N3HwqB-y67MJ for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 01:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cserver5.myshophosting.com (cserver5.myshophosting.com [175.107.161.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 822D91A900B for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 01:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp118-209-177-117.lns20.mel8.internode.on.net ([118.209.177.117]:51884 helo=[192.168.1.22]) by cserver5.myshophosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YxWvS-000oCS-1L for mmusic@ietf.org; Wed, 27 May 2015 18:42:58 +1000 Message-ID: <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 18:42:53 +1000 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic@ietf.org References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cserver5.myshophosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - nteczone.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cserver5.myshophosting.com: authenticated_id: christian.groves@nteczone.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 08:43:10 -0000 Hello Christer, With respect to the text below I don't think you need the "When DTLS is used for more than one media stream within a BUNDLE group". All you need to say is that there may only be one DTLS association per BUNDLE. Also it could be more confusing to mention more than one media stream, because SRTP doesn't use DTLS for the media stream, only key exchange. One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in a separate email discussion is what happens if you first establish a DTLS association for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I take it that you'd have to re-establish the DTLS connection and perform a handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That makes transitioning messy. Regards, Christian On 26/05/2015 2:22 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 5/25/15 3:14 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Below is a suggestion for a "DTLS considerations" section. Let me >> know if you think there are more rules/restrictions that we should >> document. > > My reply to your other message implies that it is probably important > to say more than this. > > Also, I *think* it is possible to mix RTP over UDP with RTP over DTLS > in the same bundle. (Though I can't think of any utility to doing so.) > I don't think what you say below is inconsistent with that, but it > might be good to think through the implications. > > Thanks, > Paul > >> -------------------- >> >> X. DTLS Considerations >> >> One or more media streams within a BUNDLE group can use >> the Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) protocol [RFC6347] >> in order to encrypt the data, or to negotiate encryption keys >> if another encryption mechanism is used to encrypt media. >> >> When DTLS is used for more than one media stream within a BUNDLE >> group, the following rules apply: >> >> o A single DTLS association [RFC6347] MUST be used for all media >> using DTLS; and >> >> o Each media protocol using DTLS MUST use the same mechanism >> for >> determining which endpoint (the offerer or answerer) becomes DTLS >> client and DTLS server. >> >> -------------------- >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer >> Holmberg >> Sent: 25 May 2015 04:59 >> To: Christian Groves; mmusic@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? >> >> Hi, >> >> I wonder whether we should have a "DTLS considerations" section in >> BUNDLE, and specify that all bundled media MUST use the same DTLS >> connection for key management, encryption etc. >> >> Would it even be possible to establish multiple DTLS connections on a >> single 5-tuple? >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian >> Groves >> Sent: 22 May 2015 10:20 >> To: mmusic@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? >> >> Hello Magnus and Martin, >> >> Thanks for confirming that. >> >> It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the >> BUNDLE and JSEP drafts. >> >> Regards, Christian >> >> >> >> On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian >> Groves wrote: >> >>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is used >>> for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >> >> Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same >> session are used to key SRTP. >> >> >> >> On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >>>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is >>>> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >>>> >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >>>> >>>> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP >>>> over// >>>> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >>>> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol >>>> payloads// >>>> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >>>> >>>> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764 >>>> clause >>>> 4.1 it says: >>>> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >>>> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application >>>> data is// >>>> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. >>>> Rather,// >>>> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack, >>>> which// >>>> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them >>>> appropriately.// >>>> / >>>> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with "RTP >>>> or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the DTLS >>>> connection for anything else. However I take it that as the rest of >>>> the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant when >>>> application data is mentioned? >>>> >>>> Can only one add some clarity? >>>> >>> >>> Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Magnus Westerlund >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >>> Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > From nobody Wed May 27 01:51:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F951A9042 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 01:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OWkuDIyjxFJ4 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 01:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72D4E1A904B for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 01:51:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2562; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1432716679; x=1433926279; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=PrjtPjY9FkE56mu7CW584T17gMZAsxHLGBo9W2x82ag=; b=guigrT5LaXGDKDS2zM79JPLH9Qb3GYaH137N+Vzg56++EDIMCW/OY393 /mqQaZA0iFaxToRDBA3hGA4DJqdcdFcF+jdT9KCO75W0C5tyHUd/n322B Ta4+KoNwonClJ9N4sQumD7EDADKoBSq12cgtp80g0GIHosx1waaWbPn2q A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AEBACrhGVV/5xdJa1cgxBUXgaDGb97CYFZhXcCHIEeOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIgEBAQQjEUUQAgEGAhEDAQIDAiYCAgIwFQgIAQEEAQ0FiCwNjgudEaQZAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEwSBIYoZhFIzB4JoL4EWAQSLVYR3gjyENYZaAYEojieHXyODeG+BRoEBAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,503,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="153688050" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 May 2015 08:50:39 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x05.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x05.cisco.com [173.36.12.79]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4R8oda3001496 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 27 May 2015 08:50:39 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x01.cisco.com ([169.254.2.227]) by xhc-aln-x05.cisco.com ([173.36.12.79]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 27 May 2015 03:50:39 -0500 From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" To: Christer Holmberg , "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Review of draft-begen-mmusic-rfc4566bis-iana-updates-01 Thread-Index: AdCT9o/VI+xohOBPT0uf/irjUKnBtAEprEQA Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 08:50:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D82ACB2@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D82ACB2@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.150508 x-originating-ip: [10.98.108.83] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4FADF172A70A6149A035989777B1A884@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Review of draft-begen-mmusic-rfc4566bis-iana-updates-01 X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 08:51:21 -0000 VGhhbmtzIENocmlzdGVyLg0KDQpTZWUgaW5saW5lLg0KDQoNCg0KRnJvbTogIENocmlzdGVyIEhv bG1iZXJnDQpEYXRlOiAgVGh1cnNkYXksIE1heSAyMSwgMjAxNSBhdCAxMDowNSBQTQ0KVG86ICAi bW11c2ljQGlldGYub3JnIg0KQ2M6ICAibW11c2ljLWNoYWlyc0B0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZyIsICJB bGkgQy4gQmVnZW4iDQpTdWJqZWN0OiAgUmV2aWV3IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWJlZ2VuLW1tdXNpYy1yZmM0 NTY2YmlzLWlhbmEtdXBkYXRlcy0wMQ0KDQoNCj5IaSwNCj4gDQo+SSBoYXZlIHJldmlld2VkIHRo ZSByZmM0NTY2YmlzLWlhbmEtdXBkYXRlcyBkcmFmdC4NCj4gDQo+SW4gZ2VuZXJhbCB0aGUgZHJh ZnQgbG9va3Mgb2suIFJlZ2FyZGluZyB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZSBjb250ZW50IHNob3VsZCBiZSBpbmNs dWRlZCBpbiA0NTY2YmlzLCBvciBiZSBwdWJsaXNoZWQgYXMgYSBzZXBhcmF0ZSBSRkMsIG15IHBl cnNvbmFsIHByZWZlcmVuY2Ugd291bGQgYmUgdG8gaW5jbHVkZSBpdCBpbiA0NTY2YmlzLiBIb3dl dmVyLCBJIGNhbiBhbHNvIGxpdmUgd2l0aCBhIHNlcGFyYXRlIFJGQy4gSSBkb27igJl0DQo+IHRo aW5rIGl0IHNob3VsZCB1cGRhdGUgUkZDIDQ1NjYuDQo+DQo+DQo+DQoNClRoaXMgZHJhZnQgaGFz IGJlZW4gaW50ZWdyYXRlZCB0byB0aGUgNDU2NmJpcyBkcmFmdCBpbiB2ZXJzaW9uIDE1LiBUaGlz IHdhcyB0aGUgYWdyZWVtZW50Lg0KaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWll dGYtbW11c2ljLXJmYzQ1NjZiaXMtMTUNCg0KDQpTbyBpZiB5b3UgY2FuIGhhdmUgYSBsb29rIGF0 IHRoaXMgYmlzIGRyYWZ0IChzZWN0aW9uIDgpLCB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGhlbHBmdWwuDQoNCj4N Cj4gDQo+SSBhbHNvIGhhdmUgc29tZSBlZGl0b3JpYWwgY29tbWVudHMgb24gc2VjdGlvbiAzLjE6 DQo+IA0KPlExOg0KPiANCj5UaGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHNlbnRlbmNlOg0KPiANCj7igJxXaGlsZSB0 aGVyZSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbXVsdGlwbGUgbmV0d29yayBhbmQgYWRkcmVzcyB0eXBlcyBoYXZlIGJl ZW4gcmVnaXN0ZXJlZCBzbyBmYXLigKbigJ0NCj4gDQo+4oCmLmRvZXMgbm90IHBhcnNlLiBJIHN1 Z2dlc3QgdG8gcmVtb3ZlIOKAnHRoZXJlIGhhdmUgYmVlbuKAnSBpbiB0aGUgYmVnaW5uaW5nIG9m IHRoZSBzZW50ZW5jZToNCj4gDQo+4oCcV2hpbGUgbXVsdGlwbGUgbmV0d29yayBhbmQgYWRkcmVz cyB0eXBlcyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmVnaXN0ZXJlZCBzbyBmYXLigKbigJ0NCj4NCj4NCj4NCg0KTi9B DQoNCj4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPlEyOg0KPiANCj5JbnN0ZWFkIG9mIHNheWluZyDigJx1c2FibGXigJ0s IEkgc3VnZ2VzdCB0byBzYXkg4oCcYXBwbGljYWJsZeKAnS4NCj4NCj4NCj4NCg0KSSBjYW4gY2hh bmdlIHRoaXMuDQo+DQo+IA0KPiANCj5RMzoNCj4gDQo+SW4gdGhlIHRhYmxlLCB3b3VsZCBpdCBi ZSBtb3JlIGNsZWFyIHRvIHJlcGxhY2Ug4oCcU0RQIE5hbWXigJ0gd2l0aCDigJxuZXR0eXBl4oCd Pw0KPg0KPg0KPg0KDQpJIGNhbiBkbyB0aGlzLCB0b28uDQo+DQo+IA0KPiANCj5RNDoNCj4gDQo+ SW5zdGVhZCBvZiBzYXlpbmcgdGhhdCB0aGUgYXV0aG9yIOKAnGhhcyB0byBjaGVja+KAnSB3aGV0 aGVyIGEgbmV3IGFkZHJlc3MgdHlwZSBpcyB1c2FibGUvYXBwbGljYWJsZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBleGlz dGluZyBuZXR3b3JrIHR5cGVzLCBJ4oCZZCBzYXkgdGhhdCBhdXRob3IgaGFzIHRvIGRlZmluZSB3 aXRoIHdoaWNoIGFkZHJ0eXBlcyAobmV3IGFuZCBleGlzdGluZykgdGhlIG5ldyBhZGRyZXNzIHR5 cGUgaXMgYXBwbGljYWJsZS4NCj4NCj4NCj4NCg0KU291bmQgZ29vZC4NCg0KLWFjYmVnZW4NCg0K Pg0KPiANCj5UaGFua3MhDQo+IA0KPlJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+IA0KPkNocmlzdGVyDQo= From nobody Wed May 27 01:54:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0E61A905A for ; 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Wed, 27 May 2015 10:54:27 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Christian Groves , "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal Thread-Index: AdCWueoLsROxlWDYR6SbmQrUuOlHngAPEbUAAFSKmYAABF7jcA== Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 08:54:26 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprCIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvra5LW2qowYEeOYsv7xtZLLZOFbK4 duYfo8XU5Y9ZLFZsOMBqMePCVGYHNo+/7z8weeycdZfdY8GmUo8lS34yeaw4P5PF49aUggC2 KC6blNSczLLUIn27BK6MNSc2sRZsM6toe7+EsYHxrXYXIyeHhICJxPWZ3WwQtpjEhXvrgWwu DiGBo4wSR6fdYoVwFjNKTG18w9LFyMHBJmAh0f0PrFlEIFpi0sJmsAZmgbuMEv9v/WYGSQgL uEj8WtLDAlHkKrHiOURcRMBJ4mZ3MxOIzSKgKnF3wXQwm1fAV2L7naWMEMv6GSWWHZ4KluAU 0JGY9OEyI4jNCHTe91NrwOLMAuISt57MZ4I4W0BiyZ7zzBC2qMTLx/9YIWwlicYlT1gh6vUk bkydwgZha0ssW/iaGWKxoMTJmU9YJjCKzUIydhaSlllIWmYhaVnAyLKKUbQ4tbg4N93IWC+1 KDO5uDg/Ty8vtWQTIzAaD275rbuDcfVrx0OMAhyMSjy8iqqpoUKsiWXFlbmHGKU5WJTEeb26 QkKFBNITS1KzU1MLUovii0pzUosPMTJxcEo1MC4xe9wr9N1G6eNTAwuraXsnTk/0VhQ/r/39 csuRMpM0SyG/BccL29RW3rAy0e3ddOJfgc6S11/dvzVMf3QyMr2Ed77Kpx9Zj77zCYgbMcTL 8Z8qvczBMP3OEvabyfpPspp/2R5oOuFzye4/48P8V6KbWHcfmb5xz1M/VlmRU21b9Ptznj2T 4VRiKc5INNRiLipOBACNrIwWpwIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 08:54:34 -0000 Hi Christian, >With respect to the text below I don't think you need the "When DTLS is us= ed for more than one media stream within a >BUNDLE group". All you need to = say is that there may only be one DTLS association per BUNDLE. Also it coul= d be more >confusing to mention more than one media stream, because SRTP do= esn't use DTLS for the media stream, only key >exchange. Sounds good. >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in a separate email disc= ussion is what happens if you first establish a >DTLS association for datac= hannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I take it that you'd h= ave to re-establish >the DTLS connection and perform a handshake using the = "use_srtp" extension. That makes transitioning messy. There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on when one is allowed = to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea (I don't have the exact det= ails in front of me) is that it can happen only when an IP address or port = changes. That obviously does not have to occur if you add SRTP. Roman/Justin/Martin/Paul/whoever-cares-about-this, do you have an opinion? Regards, Christer On 26/05/2015 2:22 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 5/25/15 3:14 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Below is a suggestion for a "DTLS considerations" section. Let me=20 >> know if you think there are more rules/restrictions that we should=20 >> document. > > My reply to your other message implies that it is probably important=20 > to say more than this. > > Also, I *think* it is possible to mix RTP over UDP with RTP over DTLS=20 > in the same bundle. (Though I can't think of any utility to doing so.)=20 > I don't think what you say below is inconsistent with that, but it=20 > might be good to think through the implications. > > Thanks, > Paul > >> -------------------- >> >> X. DTLS Considerations >> >> One or more media streams within a BUNDLE group can use >> the Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) protocol [RFC6347] >> in order to encrypt the data, or to negotiate encryption keys >> if another encryption mechanism is used to encrypt media. >> >> When DTLS is used for more than one media stream within a BUNDLE >> group, the following rules apply: >> >> o A single DTLS association [RFC6347] MUST be used for all media >> using DTLS; and >> >> o Each media protocol using DTLS MUST use the same mechanism=20 >> for >> determining which endpoint (the offerer or answerer) becomes DTLS=20 >> client and DTLS server. >> >> -------------------- >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer=20 >> Holmberg >> Sent: 25 May 2015 04:59 >> To: Christian Groves; mmusic@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? >> >> Hi, >> >> I wonder whether we should have a "DTLS considerations" section in=20 >> BUNDLE, and specify that all bundled media MUST use the same DTLS=20 >> connection for key management, encryption etc. >> >> Would it even be possible to establish multiple DTLS connections on a=20 >> single 5-tuple? >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian=20 >> Groves >> Sent: 22 May 2015 10:20 >> To: mmusic@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? >> >> Hello Magnus and Martin, >> >> Thanks for confirming that. >> >> It would be good to cover bundling the SRTP and DTLS/SCTP m-lines the=20 >> BUNDLE and JSEP drafts. >> >> Regards, Christian >> >> >> >> On 20 May 2015 at 17:21, Christian >> Groves wrote: >> >>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is=20 >>> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >> >> Yes, the record layer carries SCTP and exporters from the same=20 >> session are used to key SRTP. >> >> >> >> On 21/05/2015 7:34 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> Christian Groves skrev den 2015-05-21 02:21: >>>> Can anyone confirm the intention that a single DTLS connection is=20 >>>> used for SRTP key exchange and also SCTP packets? >>>> >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-08 indicates: >>>> >>>> /WebRTC implementations MUST support multiplexing of DTLS and RTP=20 >>>> over// >>>> // the same port pair, as described in the DTLS_SRTP specification// >>>> // [RFC5764], section 5.1.2. All application layer protocol >>>> payloads// >>>> // over this DTLS connection are SCTP packets./ >>>> >>>> To me this implies a single DTLS connection. However in RFC5764=20 >>>> clause >>>> 4.1 it says: >>>> /Once the "use_srtp" extension is negotiated, the RTP or RTCP// >>>> // application data is protected solely using SRTP. Application >>>> data is// >>>> // never sent in DTLS record-layer "application_data" packets. >>>> Rather,// >>>> // complete RTP or RTCP packets are passed to the DTLS stack,=20 >>>> which// >>>> // passes them to the SRTP stack, which protects them=20 >>>> appropriately.// >>>> / >>>> In the second sentence "application data" is not qualified with=20 >>>> "RTP or RTCP" so it could be taken that its not possible to use the=20 >>>> DTLS connection for anything else. However I take it that as the=20 >>>> rest of the paragraph talks about RTP or RTCP that these were meant=20 >>>> when application data is mentioned? >>>> >>>> Can only one add some clarity? >>>> >>> >>> Yes, that is clearly the intention as I understand it in WebRTC. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Magnus Westerlund >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >>> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic From nobody Wed May 27 04:38:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230CD1ACE2C for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKPezqc7LuNc for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 797641ACE16 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.65]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 01CD12825FFB6; Wed, 27 May 2015 11:37:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70TWXCHHUB03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70twxchhub03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.35]) by us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id t4RBbrFT019733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 27 May 2015 07:37:53 -0400 Received: from US70UWXCHMBA02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.8.56]) by US70TWXCHHUB03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 27 May 2015 07:37:53 -0400 From: "Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju)" To: Christer Holmberg , Christian Groves , "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal Thread-Index: AQHQlwb7vj+ArOB9IUykm6bX5dlz6J2Pxz2AgAADOgD//+j6sA== Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 11:37:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 11:38:00 -0000 > >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in a separate email > discussion is what happens if you first establish a >DTLS association > for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I take it > that you'd have to re-establish >the DTLS connection and perform a > handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That makes transitioning > messy. >=20 > There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on when one is > allowed to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea (I don't have > the exact details in front of me) is that it can happen only when an IP > address or port changes. That obviously does not have to occur if you > add SRTP. [Raju]=20 Will there be an issue if "use_srtp" extension is always included even when SRTP media is not present at that time? I don't see any issue. This is how Chrome works today; it always includes the extension. BR Raju From nobody Wed May 27 08:31:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190DB1B2D75 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YodnJWrEhqXu for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com (mail-ie0-f169.google.com [209.85.223.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B06E1B2B88 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iesa3 with SMTP id a3so16402166ies.2 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=SfMo1+nyD+OFJF+vTHHd0fbyb8Kj2uZd2nWZvcyL3L4=; b=JoiBb5FY+2Z8d6DDGvoMKuLoDE3rocr6LGO55yf6ymY/Pd35Zd93UQN5Ji8PXLM6Dn WXOmOHk87a3QJJYG+Zll8SDO+SsAcSbvSKYrB1BWcbRDTc+exMjI8Kdzk6dathOa8wjs Np7hnQQwS0Amv773F53ehaApWOZYBFbiSuaT4TvhsdIVBQXWtIDIxekCQXvE9c3Jlexi z09Df6VbbqP3OugD6XCikBCUkBMhXSS8qCK7rzWndtQwPhJ1XRv3ssKPopvW0XSnnq8y PLpP8BBlQgXJm10sYREyUBdQoeh36Xr1KLe1CIxHi90/1LZpvhaAlQzNrVbjis4nMScG JYww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnDQXgxDwRPM0RUFI+CUqyObwdFOhShMWbiXQH6bSnuLHv2RFmfF06VNd6/GUQUOqXXXl5i X-Received: by 10.42.102.211 with SMTP id j19mr4134909ico.50.1432740684955; Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-f169.google.com (mail-ig0-f169.google.com. [209.85.213.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p4sm2005204igg.20.2015.05.27.08.31.23 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbhj9 with SMTP id hj9so90206020igb.1 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.161.6 with SMTP id k6mr44402607ioe.41.1432740682843; Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.89.70 with HTTP; Wed, 27 May 2015 08:31:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 11:31:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: "Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141bd9674cdb9051711ef74 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 15:31:31 -0000 --001a1141bd9674cdb9051711ef74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) < Raju.Makaraju@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > > >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in a separate email > > discussion is what happens if you first establish a >DTLS association > > for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I take it > > that you'd have to re-establish >the DTLS connection and perform a > > handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That makes transitioning > > messy. > > > > There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on when one is > > allowed to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea (I don't have > > the exact details in front of me) is that it can happen only when an IP > > address or port changes. That obviously does not have to occur if you > > add SRTP. > [Raju] > Will there be an issue if "use_srtp" extension is always included even when > SRTP media is not present at that time? I don't see any issue. > This is how Chrome works today; it always includes the extension. > > I agree, DTLS session should always be setup with "use_srtp" extension. There is little or no additional overhead, but this removes the latency required for a new DTLS session when and if SRTP is added. Since there is no new DTLS session there is no need for a new underlying transport and additional IPs. Nice and clean. This should probably be stated somewhere in the document. _____________ Roman Shpount --001a1141bd9674cdb9051711ef74 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Makaraju, Marid= i Raju (Raju) <Raju.Makaraju@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in a= separate email
> discussion is what happens if you first establish a >DTLS associati= on
> for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I take i= t
> that you'd have to re-establish >the DTLS connection and perfor= m a
> handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That makes transit= ioning
> messy.
>
> There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on when one is
> allowed to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea (I don't h= ave
> the exact details in front of me) is that it can happen only when an I= P
> address or port changes. That obviously does not have to occur if you<= br> > add SRTP.
[Raju]
Will there be an issue if "use_srtp" extension is always included= even when
SRTP media is not present at that time? I don't see any issue.
This is how Chrome works today; it always includes the extension.


I agree, DTLS session should always be= setup with "use_srtp" extension. There is little or no additiona= l overhead, but this removes the latency required for a new DTLS session wh= en and if SRTP is added. Since there is no new DTLS session there is no nee= d for a new underlying transport and additional IPs. Nice and clean.
<= div>
This should probably be stated somewhere in the document= .
_____________
Roman Shpount

=C2=A0
--001a1141bd9674cdb9051711ef74-- From nobody Wed May 27 10:17:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DB11A87BD for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 10:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 51kwMBn_q0WH for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 10:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DE571A87BB for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 10:17:29 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f798d6d0000009ec-7e-5565fc276cbb Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AA.56.02540.72CF5655; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:17:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.71]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:17:26 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Roman Shpount , "Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju)" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal Thread-Index: AdCWueoLsROxlWDYR6SbmQrUuOlHngAPEbUAAFSKmYAABF7jcAABvZYAAAgnpwAAB+VBBw== Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 17:17:25 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprOIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvra76n9RQgwOzhC2+vG9ksZi6/DGL xYoNB1gtGjZeYbWYcWEqswOrR+uzvawef99/YPJYsuQnk8eK8zNZPG5NKQhgjeKySUnNySxL LdK3S+DK+H76BmPBVOOK5TvuMzcw/tLuYuTkkBAwkdj0u58RwhaTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMBRRokz Mz8xQziLGSWmLb7N1MXIwcEmYCHR/Q+sWUQgS+LS/d1MIDazQA+jxKrzOSC2sICLxK8lPSwQ Na4SK57/ZoawwyQeT7oCFmcRUJW4+3A2G4jNK+Ar8XX1C0aIXa+ZJB7vegmW4BQIlGjrewrW wAh03fdTa6CWiUs0fVnJCnG1gMSSPeeZIWxRiZeP/7FC1ORLNK+ewQ6xQFDi5MwnLBMYRWYh aZ+FpGwWkjKIuIHEl/e3oWxtiWULXzND2PoS3e9PMyGLL2BkX8UoWpxanJSbbmSkl1qUmVxc nJ+nl5dasokRGJMHt/w22MH48rnjIUYBDkYlHl4F1dRQIdbEsuLK3EOM0hwsSuK8nl0hoUIC 6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFpTmpxYcYmTg4pRoYq/OvGklM+Jx3+NQmMZb5jZxrp3UYrNNm/7a9SDNu TbrJr/lnzJXPlOYyqqS/ME/UCLKMlQ1rFWEs+pU777VhutJyxibrs2XHS17PW7uC5cLm0zee CJ2xM5IxueARXCGwpDnL2uPZYsPfRlOUBeV5DqQf6X74poWj1fPCm+yFcb3GP7nY939QYinO SDTUYi4qTgQAjhQpFaoCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 17:17:32 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I guess we could add some text to the DTLS Considerations section. Regards, Christer Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Roman Shpount Sent: =FD27/=FD05/=FD2015 23:31 To: Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) Cc: Christer Holmberg; Christian Gro= ves; mmusic@ietf.org; pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) > wrote: > >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in a separate email > discussion is what happens if you first establish a >DTLS association > for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I take it > that you'd have to re-establish >the DTLS connection and perform a > handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That makes transitioning > messy. > > There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on when one is > allowed to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea (I don't have > the exact details in front of me) is that it can happen only when an IP > address or port changes. That obviously does not have to occur if you > add SRTP. [Raju] Will there be an issue if "use_srtp" extension is always included even when SRTP media is not present at that time? I don't see any issue. This is how Chrome works today; it always includes the extension. I agree, DTLS session should always be setup with "use_srtp" extension. The= re is little or no additional overhead, but this removes the latency requir= ed for a new DTLS session when and if SRTP is added. Since there is no new = DTLS session there is no need for a new underlying transport and additional= IPs. Nice and clean. This should probably be stated somewhere in the document. _____________ Roman Shpount --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I guess we could add some text to the DTLS Considerations section.

Regards,

Christer

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Roman Shpount
Sent: =FD27= /=FD05/=FD2015 23:31
To: Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju)=
Cc: Christer Holmberg; Christian Groves; mmusic@ietf.org; pkyzivat@alum= .mit.edu
Subject: Re: [= MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal



On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Makaraju, M= aridi Raju (Raju) <Raju.Makaraju@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up= in a separate email
> discussion is what happens if you first establish a >DTLS associati= on
> for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I take i= t
> that you'd have to re-establish >the DTLS connection and perform a<= br> > handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That makes transit= ioning
> messy.
>
> There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on when one is
> allowed to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea (I don't have<= br> > the exact details in front of me) is that it can happen only when an I= P
> address or port changes. That obviously does not have to occur if you<= br> > add SRTP.
[Raju]
Will there be an issue if "use_srtp" extension is always included= even when
SRTP media is not present at that time? I don't see any issue.
This is how Chrome works today; it always includes the extension.


I agree, DTLS session should always be setup with "use_srtp"= extension. There is little or no additional overhead, but this removes the= latency required for a new DTLS session when and if SRTP is added. Since t= here is no new DTLS session there is no need for a new underlying transport and additional IPs. Nice and clean.

This should probably be stated somewhere in the document.
_____________
Roman Shpount

 
--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Wed May 27 17:06:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EE91B2AFC for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 17:06:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mpZdxNHQZ__J for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 17:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cserver5.myshophosting.com (cserver5.myshophosting.com [175.107.161.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D56431B2AFB for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 17:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp118-209-70-122.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net ([118.209.70.122]:49940 helo=[192.168.1.22]) by cserver5.myshophosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YxlL4-002Wq0-V3; Thu, 28 May 2015 10:06:23 +1000 Message-ID: <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 10:06:18 +1000 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christer Holmberg , Roman Shpount , "Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju)" References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> , <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1256; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cserver5.myshophosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - nteczone.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cserver5.myshophosting.com: authenticated_id: christian.groves@nteczone.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 00:06:33 -0000 To be clear this means that the SRTP and SRTCP ( (because of the possibility of RTP/RTCP muxing) key negotiation occurs even before RTP/STRP media is added to the BUNDLE, and the keying material for both are maintained for the life of the BUNDLE? If the keys are unused they wouldn't expire because max lifetime is based on the number of protected packets. Christian On 28/05/2015 3:17 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > > I guess we could add some text to the DTLS Considerations section. > > Regards, > > Christer > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Roman Shpount > Sent: ý27/ý05/ý2015 23:31 > To: Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) > Cc: Christer Holmberg ; > Christian Groves ; > mmusic@ietf.org ; pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu > > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal > > > > On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) > > wrote: > > > >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in a separate email > > discussion is what happens if you first establish a >DTLS > association > > for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I > take it > > that you'd have to re-establish >the DTLS connection and perform a > > handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That makes transitioning > > messy. > > > > There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on when one is > > allowed to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea (I don't > have > > the exact details in front of me) is that it can happen only > when an IP > > address or port changes. That obviously does not have to occur > if you > > add SRTP. > [Raju] > Will there be an issue if "use_srtp" extension is always included > even when > SRTP media is not present at that time? I don't see any issue. > This is how Chrome works today; it always includes the extension. > > > I agree, DTLS session should always be setup with "use_srtp" > extension. There is little or no additional overhead, but this removes > the latency required for a new DTLS session when and if SRTP is added. > Since there is no new DTLS session there is no need for a new > underlying transport and additional IPs. Nice and clean. > > This should probably be stated somewhere in the document. > _____________ > Roman Shpount > From nobody Wed May 27 19:20:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F951A8AAD for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CTLhgI6E0qbN for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-f173.google.com (mail-ig0-f173.google.com [209.85.213.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A0B71A8A83 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbhj9 with SMTP id hj9so103143201igb.1 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=NaWD7k5RDAjHkuj6xDjVOc9KEz3hnrQ4aqfOn15xmNE=; b=ZiNJNomXc6q++aMhBQKwh0kDss0BZk8+mgLR3EVFFTxfekEsq8Ie3te2BuuIf3pn3y RbxuAl4xKc9vw9X5sFAsYnq5xYCbzOWkf464M4EnCI558+E6bTYvzkHWk2PVh4GTBvnT YaPtvXpLtYWBUzadUfndXlP7Lf/jOqslp1Zx+/BimwOpY5Rwv4hUQyxHv+iRKueozv8t nSYwahZWmFYSEgOaJtkZzzKAYgjB6nytlXOsXedixao6SVJardNcRtR89ybymXCkdEJW 544qRUr6CI0DC6bPB7pAXIiVC2B66ZLlXum118uQg06N3Y9zPIimNVbSKNx5HKseoche SXPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk4gSwWZGsL7C9oVbXg01LHMO7UhHvqGnqK+zM2cqPwZ2S3g5QJzqDT0T0qfLdSdLtkeUtb X-Received: by 10.50.112.73 with SMTP id io9mr41698524igb.18.1432779628821; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-f173.google.com (mail-ie0-f173.google.com. [209.85.223.173]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qt1sm1028738igb.5.2015.05.27.19.20.26 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iepj10 with SMTP id j10so27982169iep.3 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.89.133 with SMTP id be5mr6904296icc.2.1432779625981; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.89.70 with HTTP; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:20:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 22:20:25 -0400 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Christian Groves Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5196a2da5f48b05171b00c3 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 02:20:31 -0000 --bcaec5196a2da5f48b05171b00c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If "use_srtp" extension is specified, there is going to be SRTP/SRTCP keying material present and associated with each DTLS cipher state. If DTLS re-handshake occurs within the same session, the new RTP/RTCP keying material will be negotiated. Since no SRTP/SRTCP packets would be exchanged before SRTP/SRTCP stream was added to the bundle, these packets would not contribute to cipher state expiration. Cipher state can still expire due to the number of data packets transmitted or time, which can still cause new SRTP/SRTCP keying material to be negotiated. Technically speaking either DTLS client or server can initiate a re-handshake at any time. It is an implementation detail on what would cause a re-handshake, and it can be done based on the number of packets sent or received, or based on time. If re-handshake is done based on the number of packets, both SRTP/SRTCP and data packets should have separate counters and cause a re-handshake once a certain value is passed. As far as I know, DTLS re-handshake is not currently supported by either Chrome or Firefox, which means keying material for both data and SRTP/SRTCP will stay the same for the duration of the session. _____________ Roman Shpount On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Christian Groves < Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote: > To be clear this means that the SRTP and SRTCP ( (because of the > possibility of RTP/RTCP muxing) key negotiation occurs even before RTP/ST= RP > media is added to the BUNDLE, and the keying material for both are > maintained for the life of the BUNDLE? If the keys are unused they wouldn= 't > expire because max lifetime is based on the number of protected packets. > > Christian > > On 28/05/2015 3:17 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I guess we could add some text to the DTLS Considerations section. >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> From: Roman Shpount >> Sent: =E2=80=8E27/=E2=80=8E05/=E2=80=8E2015 23:31 >> To: Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) > > >> Cc: Christer Holmberg ; Christian >> Groves ; mmusic@ietf.org > mmusic@ietf.org>; pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu >> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) < >> Raju.Makaraju@alcatel-lucent.com > >> wrote: >> >> > >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in a separate >> email >> > discussion is what happens if you first establish a >DTLS >> association >> > for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP media? I >> take it >> > that you'd have to re-establish >the DTLS connection and perform a >> > handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That makes transitioning >> > messy. >> > >> > There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on when one is >> > allowed to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea (I don't >> have >> > the exact details in front of me) is that it can happen only >> when an IP >> > address or port changes. That obviously does not have to occur >> if you >> > add SRTP. >> [Raju] >> Will there be an issue if "use_srtp" extension is always included >> even when >> SRTP media is not present at that time? I don't see any issue. >> This is how Chrome works today; it always includes the extension. >> >> >> I agree, DTLS session should always be setup with "use_srtp" extension. >> There is little or no additional overhead, but this removes the latency >> required for a new DTLS session when and if SRTP is added. Since there i= s >> no new DTLS session there is no need for a new underlying transport and >> additional IPs. Nice and clean. >> >> This should probably be stated somewhere in the document. >> _____________ >> Roman Shpount >> >> > --bcaec5196a2da5f48b05171b00c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If =C2=A0"use_srtp" extension is specified, ther= e is going to be SRTP/SRTCP keying material present and associated with eac= h DTLS cipher state. If DTLS re-handshake occurs within the same session, t= he new RTP/RTCP keying material will be negotiated. Since no SRTP/SRTCP pac= kets would be exchanged before SRTP/SRTCP stream was added to the bundle, t= hese packets would not contribute to cipher state expiration. Cipher state = can still expire due to the number of data packets transmitted or time, whi= ch can still cause new SRTP/SRTCP keying material to be negotiated.

= Technically speaking either DTLS client or server can initiate a re-handsha= ke at any time. It is an implementation detail on what would cause a re-han= dshake, and it can be done based on the number of packets sent or received,= or based on time. If re-handshake is done based on the number of packets, = both SRTP/SRTCP and data packets should have separate counters and cause a = re-handshake once a certain value is passed.

As far as I know, DTLS = re-handshake is not currently supported by either Chrome or Firefox, which = means keying material for both data and SRTP/SRTCP will stay the same for t= he duration of the session.
_____________
Roman Shpount

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Christian G= roves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:
=
To be clear this means that the SRTP and SRTCP ( (because = of the possibility of RTP/RTCP muxing) key negotiation occurs even before R= TP/STRP media is added to the BUNDLE, and the keying material for both are = maintained for the life of the BUNDLE? If the keys are unused they wouldn&#= 39;t expire because max lifetime is based on the number of protected packet= s.

Christian

On 28/05/2015 3:17 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
Hi,

I guess we could add some text to the DTLS Considerations section.

Regards,

Christer

Sent from my Windows Phone
------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Roman Shpount <mailto:roman@telurix.com>
Sent: =E2=80=8E27/=E2=80=8E05/=E2=80=8E2015 23:31
To: Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) <mailto:Raju.Makaraju@alcatel-lucent.com= >
Cc: Christer Holmberg <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Christian= Groves <mailto:Christian.Groves@nteczone.com>; mmusic@ietf.org <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org>; pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu &l= t;mailto:pkyziva= t@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal



On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju) <Raju.Makaraj= u@alcatel-lucent.com <mailto:Raju.Makaraju@alcatel-lucent.com>>= wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >One interesting question that Albrecht brought up in= a separate email
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > discussion is what happens if you first establish a >= DTLS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 association
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > for datachannel and then at a later stage you add SRTP m= edia? I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 take it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that you'd have to re-establish >the DTLS connect= ion and perform a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > handshake using the "use_srtp" extension. That= makes transitioning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > messy.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There is a related (not BUNDLE specific) discussion on w= hen one is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > allowed to re-establish a DTLS connection, and the idea = (I don't
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the exact details in front of me) is that it can happen = only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when an IP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > address or port changes. That obviously does not have to= occur
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if you
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > add SRTP.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Raju]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Will there be an issue if "use_srtp" extension is a= lways included
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 even when
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRTP media is not present at that time? I don't see any i= ssue.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is how Chrome works today; it always includes the extens= ion.


I agree, DTLS session should always be setup with "use_srtp" exte= nsion. There is little or no additional overhead, but this removes the late= ncy required for a new DTLS session when and if SRTP is added. Since there = is no new DTLS session there is no need for a new underlying transport and = additional IPs. Nice and clean.

This should probably be stated somewhere in the document.
_____________
Roman Shpount



--bcaec5196a2da5f48b05171b00c3-- From nobody Wed May 27 23:30:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1131A1AFF for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 23:30:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LIEIndqFSuiJ for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 23:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D056A1A1AA6 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 23:30:51 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f794d6d000004501-81-5566b6190d2d Received: from ESESSHC017.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 32.2A.17665.916B6655; Thu, 28 May 2015 08:30:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.71]) by ESESSHC017.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.69]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Thu, 28 May 2015 08:30:49 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Roman Shpount , Christian Groves Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal Thread-Index: AdCWueoLsROxlWDYR6SbmQrUuOlHngAPEbUAAFSKmYAABF7jcAABvZYAAAgnpwAAB+VBBwAKFpwAAASvGIAADOHQIA== Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 06:30:48 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> 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(No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F09CA1A8AC4 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 04:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 77D9D91A5B278; Thu, 28 May 2015 11:31:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id t4SBV1T7018780 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 28 May 2015 13:31:01 +0200 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.5.200]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 28 May 2015 13:31:01 +0200 From: "GUBALLA, JENS (JENS)" To: Christer Holmberg , Roman Shpount , Christian Groves Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal Thread-Index: AQHQmJI4nRSWGV84AkGrian0kq91vJ2P71SAgAByPgCAACV4gIAARfUAgABv+aA= Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 11:31:00 +0000 Message-ID: <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01D0994A.88D7AD50" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 11:31:06 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01D0994A.88D7AD50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Christer, > Hi Roman, >=20 >=20 >=20 > So, if I understand you correctly, we do *NOT* need to mandate = inclusion of > =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used. However, = we could still > RECOMMEND it, in order to avoid a re-handshake for that purpose when > SRTP/SRTCP is added. [JG] You should take into account that renegotiation will be removed = from TLS1.3, refer to = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-tls13-05. BTW, I prefer the term "renegotiation" over "re-handshake" or = "re-keying", refer to = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guballa-tls-terminology-01. Best regards, Jens >=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 >=20 >=20 > Christer >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Roman Shpount [mailto:roman@telurix.com] > Sent: 28 May 2015 05:20 > To: Christian Groves > Cc: Christer Holmberg; Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju); mmusic@ietf.org; > pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal >=20 >=20 >=20 > If "use_srtp" extension is specified, there is going to be SRTP/SRTCP = keying > material present and associated with each DTLS cipher state. If DTLS = re- > handshake occurs within the same session, the new RTP/RTCP keying = material > will be negotiated. Since no SRTP/SRTCP packets would be exchanged = before > SRTP/SRTCP stream was added to the bundle, these packets would not = contribute > to cipher state expiration. Cipher state can still expire due to the = number of > data packets transmitted or time, which can still cause new SRTP/SRTCP = keying > material to be negotiated. >=20 > Technically speaking either DTLS client or server can initiate a = re-handshake > at any time. It is an implementation detail on what would cause a re- > handshake, and it can be done based on the number of packets sent or = received, > or based on time. If re-handshake is done based on the number of = packets, both > SRTP/SRTCP and data packets should have separate counters and cause a = re- > handshake once a certain value is passed. >=20 > As far as I know, DTLS re-handshake is not currently supported by = either > Chrome or Firefox, which means keying material for both data and = SRTP/SRTCP > will stay the same for the duration of the session. >=20 > _____________ > Roman Shpount >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Christian Groves > wrote: >=20 > To be clear this means that the SRTP and SRTCP ( (because of the > possibility of RTP/RTCP muxing) key negotiation occurs even before = RTP/STRP > media is added to the BUNDLE, and the keying material for both are = maintained > for the life of the BUNDLE? If the keys are unused they wouldn't = expire > because max lifetime is based on the number of protected packets. >=20 > Christian >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01D0994A.88D7AD50 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIP/DCCA7Ew ggKZoAMCAQICEBErBTlXKN63QvT+VRPTt1EwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwQzEXMBUGA1UEChMOQWxj YXRlbCBMdWNlbnQxKDAmBgNVBAMTH0FsY2F0ZWwgTHVjZW50IEludGVybmFsIFJvb3QgQ0EwHhcN MDgxMTAzMTU0MTE2WhcNMjgxMTAzMTU0MTE2WjBDMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5BbGNhdGVsIEx1Y2VudDEo MCYGA1UEAxMfQWxjYXRlbCBMdWNlbnQgSW50ZXJuYWwgUm9vdCBDQTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEB BQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAL5IGBVth8afQdnpuLDI0Z37GgIcPWznOOzFJUV1gVbztqQ5CIxkVL4K soAfLzc8LQHqNl2Nk3YbVBputIyCe2nzGsRjQeVt+HO2PV7h2YpMQlVd+XGsmpJ4fAP3A38wkTl6 tFPAYspyUFvjNON1J3BJE/2cuY7apvn9ZfSz99x7y4QBZh3hvm4g5Fn7mK04/q7K6O4Z8Y6zkSxG 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BglghkgBZQMEAgIwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAIBMAoGCCqGSIb3DQIFMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAIZp O/66CWZkaD9taupCa1ONHFcZoPGt5/n8R9f3ZZvoJznrltqySMnQp3gtkN9Mdnya068MTYvsdCWV hPhNQ0SZN3WbA36vX/S4dGtOZJaWTcucMkgcci9vXg5n+8gvGdVoSGh6Hwo9Itg+WGHGvzr+NuzA FN2Bg6Sb5eWlp8/FYFEMuM93e4Z5SX50Ardy4mGWm5ZLQmdnwlUrXjABY5e1Q77JLfN0NkanSoUG SXZk4KkrP4eutqg3SKc2kT+qBHvedhuxiqBTX6VhnNTys86n4an3ZVppnCEYnqj4EmXLtNEW9wQ+ F0CZuL9zkd4RqX1ccILXpJ+ASjE3B4ea9n4AAAAAAAA= ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01D0994A.88D7AD50-- From nobody Thu May 28 15:51:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A42D1A914B; Thu, 28 May 2015 15:30:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qfxjhlHhQuNe; Thu, 28 May 2015 15:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabertooth02.qualcomm.com (sabertooth02.qualcomm.com [65.197.215.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 526F11ACC8A; Thu, 28 May 2015 15:30:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1432852242; x=1464388242; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject; bh=cnAfKUN5I40bXwqdl8AN0B3LEB62kyOBnnmylajfE00=; b=uBSDWsawOL+hJL12MvVCRuP6q2s+PwtLhbkSa9srNk2y9Qz3RaF270G+ AsEzHSvjAaqeQTyN6LHr+ahUIuVOn3C0GERw350v82mIT6/iEoImObhl+ 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15:30:25 -0700 To: (mmusic@ietf.org), (dispatch@ietf.org) From: Randall Gellens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 28 May 2015 15:51:49 -0700 Subject: [MMUSIC] Virtual Bar-BoF for SLIM X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 22:30:41 -0000 I'm sending this message to the mmusic and dispatch lists, but all discussion should take place on the SLIM list. I've created a Doodle poll to set a time and date for a virtual Bar-BoF for SLIM. To follow up on the SLIM face-to-face discussion in Dallas, this virtual bar-BoF provides an opportunity for further discussion with a goal of gaining consensus on moving forward with a charter. In particular: (1) Are there objections to the current proposed charter wording, or is it acceptable? (2) Are there objections to moving forward on this basis? Please participate in the Doodle poll to select the time/date, and then in the virtual Bar-BoF. http://doodle.com/ryuai9ieqxi7hue2 -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- I loathe housework. You make beds, wash dishes -- and six months later you have to start all over again. --Joan Rivers From nobody Thu May 28 16:01:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9C81ACD8E for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id srvLX_naVMdw for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-f170.google.com (mail-qk0-f170.google.com [209.85.220.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1F491ACD53 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkx62 with SMTP id 62so35333416qkx.3 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=PONX2CKUxTBAq89X8owY1IX1wlKsQFivkSI5z1iBifM=; b=Sfw6UHNMcdXNDCaaEjjOUMIE3aJzf8gW5BqNc5GC0KaI87M/exLN8jiA3hSorLFQj7 1/l5R0QVBDG9iTOafQtHXM21EmYA3sgylIAUGz7KUtSLI7KbNu5N0pbE1VXSfoEILGGU Ffm6zgwFtGiiIRnqIX9A0tP3HP+YheaGtXWbCaSqMZk/Bj20Cq2rDgIDMoDCwu+O5e6m BdwwDTZHn+SYZM8WAErhFbsdINkvlu6142Cw0wqlVaH//EYjf+64zTp7hotSM+PSbMLQ 0I/VtMdMp9jB4lp32zWJItYf+b/3CVxHpP4AytW0+h1FroH6gzVZ48y2Afx6M4UyCdP3 tPww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQms1+KhlbBQdhCTYvJa+v2/FupR6VEDH7rc4dt95dRFS3fxyV1Yc4OLnHRa9f4YWgVevprS X-Received: by 10.229.184.2 with SMTP id ci2mr6656825qcb.2.1432854091949; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-f177.google.com (mail-qc0-f177.google.com. [209.85.216.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm1751272qhd.45.2015.05.28.16.01.30 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcbhb1 with SMTP id hb1so20964818qcb.1 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.226.4 with SMTP id iu4mr6555639qcb.7.1432854089844; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.130.162 with HTTP; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:01:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 19:01:29 -0400 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: "GUBALLA, JENS (JENS)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11348e2e0a4dda05172c57f2 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 23:01:36 -0000 --001a11348e2e0a4dda05172c57f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christer, Based on the currents TLS specifications you do *NOT* need to mandate inclusion of =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used. = If this extension is not specified you can renegotiate the session with the extension enabled. We should still recommend it, in order to avoid a renegotiation for that purpose when SRTP/SRTCP is added. Also, all current implementation will not inter-operate unless =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2= =80=9D extension was included from the start, since they do not support renegotiation. I am not the member of TLS working group and TLS 1.3 is still fairly early to completely specify how it operates. In particular, it does not include any mechanism for key material update. I am not 100% sure what is going to be supported there and if extensions can be added and removed for an existing DTLS session. Given that: 1. existing implementations will not inter-operate with anything that does renegotiation (and, I have a strong suspicion anything that does not enable "use_srtp" extension) 2. renegotiation required to add "use_srtp" extension would add an extra round trip 3. overhead of always having "use_srtp" extensions is minimal I would suggest "use_srtp" extension must always be enabled for DTLS session used in bundle. _____________ Roman Shpount On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:31 AM, GUBALLA, JENS (JENS) < jens.guballa@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > Hi Christer, > > > Hi Roman, > > > > > > > > So, if I understand you correctly, we do *NOT* need to mandate inclusio= n > of > > =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used. However, = we could still > > RECOMMEND it, in order to avoid a re-handshake for that purpose when > > SRTP/SRTCP is added. > [JG] You should take into account that renegotiation will be removed from > TLS1.3, refer to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-tls13-05. > > BTW, I prefer the term "renegotiation" over "re-handshake" or "re-keying"= , > refer to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guballa-tls-terminology-01. > > Best regards, > Jens > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > From: Roman Shpount [mailto:roman@telurix.com] > > Sent: 28 May 2015 05:20 > > To: Christian Groves > > Cc: Christer Holmberg; Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju); mmusic@ietf.org; > > pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu > > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal > > > > > > > > If "use_srtp" extension is specified, there is going to be SRTP/SRTCP > keying > > material present and associated with each DTLS cipher state. If DTLS re= - > > handshake occurs within the same session, the new RTP/RTCP keying > material > > will be negotiated. Since no SRTP/SRTCP packets would be exchanged befo= re > > SRTP/SRTCP stream was added to the bundle, these packets would not > contribute > > to cipher state expiration. Cipher state can still expire due to the > number of > > data packets transmitted or time, which can still cause new SRTP/SRTCP > keying > > material to be negotiated. > > > > Technically speaking either DTLS client or server can initiate a > re-handshake > > at any time. It is an implementation detail on what would cause a re- > > handshake, and it can be done based on the number of packets sent or > received, > > or based on time. If re-handshake is done based on the number of > packets, both > > SRTP/SRTCP and data packets should have separate counters and cause a r= e- > > handshake once a certain value is passed. > > > > As far as I know, DTLS re-handshake is not currently supported by eithe= r > > Chrome or Firefox, which means keying material for both data and > SRTP/SRTCP > > will stay the same for the duration of the session. > > > > _____________ > > Roman Shpount > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Christian Groves > > wrote: > > > > To be clear this means that the SRTP and SRTCP ( (because of the > > possibility of RTP/RTCP muxing) key negotiation occurs even before > RTP/STRP > > media is added to the BUNDLE, and the keying material for both are > maintained > > for the life of the BUNDLE? If the keys are unused they wouldn't expire > > because max lifetime is based on the number of protected packets. > > > > Christian > > > > --001a11348e2e0a4dda05172c57f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Christer,

Based on the currents TLS specific= ations you do *NOT* need to mandate inclusion of =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D= until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used. If this extension is not specified you = can renegotiate the session with the extension enabled. We should still rec= ommend it, in order to avoid =C2=A0a=C2=A0renegotiation=C2=A0for that purpo= se when SRTP/SRTCP is added. Also, all current implementation will not inte= r-operate unless=C2=A0=E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D extension was=C2=A0include= d from the start, since they do not support=C2=A0renegotiation.

I am not the member of TLS working group and TLS 1.3 is still fairl= y early to completely specify how it operates. In particular, it does not i= nclude any mechanism for key material update. I am not 100% sure what is go= ing to be supported there and if extensions can be added and removed for an= existing DTLS session.

Given that:
1. e= xisting implementations will not inter-operate with anything that does rene= gotiation (and, I have a strong suspicion anything that does not enable &qu= ot;use_srtp" extension)
2. renegotiation required to add &qu= ot;use_srtp" extension would add an extra round trip
3. over= head of always having "use_srtp" extensions is minimal
=
I would suggest "use_srtp" extension must always b= e enabled for DTLS session used in bundle.

_____________Roman Shpount

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:31 AM, GUBALLA, JE= NS (JENS) <jens.guballa@alcatel-lucent.com> wr= ote:
Hi Christer,

> Hi Roman,
>
>
>
> So, if I understand you correctly, we do *NOT* need to mandate inclusi= on of
> =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used. However,= we could still
> RECOMMEND it, in order to avoid a re-handshake for that purpose when > SRTP/SRTCP is added.
[JG] You should take into account that renegotiation will be removed= from TLS1.3, refer to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-tl= s13-05.

BTW, I prefer the term "renegotiation" over "re-handshake&qu= ot; or "re-keying", refer to https://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/draft-guballa-tls-terminology-01.

Best regards,
Jens

>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Christer
>
>
>
> From: Roman Shpount [mailto:roman= @telurix.com]
> Sent: 28 May 2015 05:20
> To: Christian Groves
> Cc: Christer Holmberg; Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju); mmusic@ietf.org;
> pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal >
>
>
> If=C2=A0 "use_srtp" extension is specified, there is going t= o be SRTP/SRTCP keying
> material present and associated with each DTLS cipher state. If DTLS r= e-
> handshake occurs within the same session, the new RTP/RTCP keying mate= rial
> will be negotiated. Since no SRTP/SRTCP packets would be exchanged bef= ore
> SRTP/SRTCP stream was added to the bundle, these packets would not con= tribute
> to cipher state expiration. Cipher state can still expire due to the n= umber of
> data packets transmitted or time, which can still cause new SRTP/SRTCP= keying
> material to be negotiated.
>
> Technically speaking either DTLS client or server can initiate a re-ha= ndshake
> at any time. It is an implementation detail on what would cause a re-<= br> > handshake, and it can be done based on the number of packets sent or r= eceived,
> or based on time. If re-handshake is done based on the number of packe= ts, both
> SRTP/SRTCP and data packets should have separate counters and cause a = re-
> handshake once a certain value is passed.
>
> As far as I know, DTLS re-handshake is not currently supported by eith= er
> Chrome or Firefox, which means keying material for both data and SRTP/= SRTCP
> will stay the same for the duration of the session.
>
> _____________
> Roman Shpount
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Christian Groves
> <Christian.Groves@= nteczone.com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To be clear this means that the SRTP and SRT= CP ( (because of the
> possibility of RTP/RTCP muxing) key negotiation occurs even before RTP= /STRP
> media is added to the BUNDLE, and the keying material for both are mai= ntained
> for the life of the BUNDLE? If the keys are unused they wouldn't e= xpire
> because max lifetime is based on the number of protected packets.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Christian
>


--001a11348e2e0a4dda05172c57f2-- From nobody Thu May 28 16:05:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394C51ACDDF for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xXFyO8MZRGl3 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-f179.google.com (mail-qk0-f179.google.com [209.85.220.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6429F1ACDE6 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkx62 with SMTP id 62so35380602qkx.3 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=gQQDXafE9wSBraMxjs3pqRmhfVAmE1et3hhmwY7jOFA=; b=JAJzG/10eOleAVbDp9DhWILDdNEU1L/yNysCPQhQ6GRupIlNx06Q3gmpKIL86T+asF uvGJnkLo7G4hXWdWBuX4ehjIbIKANM/kiPTdFmnKJL28V2zKHD8Z0jqNK4SMc70NH1+E Rd+5l+uGYamfyNZqcj5A61f+j+nfEQoOAvC291Y+MrY+Dz87zqeiq1gJNoeyhzdQQqk1 AsUo0NdiCD/HXRGfKn8whPysxiKAwFVzAOfYd303R9LWncmKk5zsaAtl/7kMIYpLwTXf 6cn8zEzyr93hstQCiJqO3ktZr2FQ9HPJhx8l7H2HGkQpVvGXpWSYTrU9MCe0eFybZgIm 88Pg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmPAr4dUzgBhInGuqvxg4OgHfx4+0dglxlxjzMFREGgQvnkkORSPFI6FwVo0ORVYJkmkAPy X-Received: by 10.140.231.80 with SMTP id b77mr6679115qhc.82.1432854338603; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-f169.google.com (mail-qk0-f169.google.com. [209.85.220.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h60sm1775467qgh.18.2015.05.28.16.05.37 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkoo18 with SMTP id o18so35522252qko.1 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.16.67 with SMTP id a64mr10452342qkh.31.1432854336682; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.130.162 with HTTP; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:05:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 19:05:36 -0400 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: "GUBALLA, JENS (JENS)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1146f2c2c0c36405172c65a2 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 23:05:43 -0000 --001a1146f2c2c0c36405172c65a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable P.S. I forgot to include, as a reason to always mandate "use_srtp" extension, that ability to add extensions on the fly can be removed in TLS 1.3. _____________ Roman Shpount On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: > Christer, > > Based on the currents TLS specifications you do *NOT* need to mandate > inclusion of =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used= . If this > extension is not specified you can renegotiate the session with the > extension enabled. We should still recommend it, in order to avoid > a renegotiation for that purpose when SRTP/SRTCP is added. Also, all > current implementation will not inter-operate unless =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2= =80=9D extension > was included from the start, since they do not support renegotiation. > > I am not the member of TLS working group and TLS 1.3 is still fairly earl= y > to completely specify how it operates. In particular, it does not include > any mechanism for key material update. I am not 100% sure what is going t= o > be supported there and if extensions can be added and removed for an > existing DTLS session. > > Given that: > 1. existing implementations will not inter-operate with anything that doe= s > renegotiation (and, I have a strong suspicion anything that does not enab= le > "use_srtp" extension) > 2. renegotiation required to add "use_srtp" extension would add an extra > round trip > 3. overhead of always having "use_srtp" extensions is minimal > > I would suggest "use_srtp" extension must always be enabled for DTLS > session used in bundle. > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:31 AM, GUBALLA, JENS (JENS) < > jens.guballa@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > >> Hi Christer, >> >> > Hi Roman, >> > >> > >> > >> > So, if I understand you correctly, we do *NOT* need to mandate >> inclusion of >> > =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used. However,= we could still >> > RECOMMEND it, in order to avoid a re-handshake for that purpose when >> > SRTP/SRTCP is added. >> [JG] You should take into account that renegotiation will be removed fro= m >> TLS1.3, refer to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-tls13-05. >> >> BTW, I prefer the term "renegotiation" over "re-handshake" or >> "re-keying", refer to >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guballa-tls-terminology-01. >> >> Best regards, >> Jens >> >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > Christer >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Roman Shpount [mailto:roman@telurix.com] >> > Sent: 28 May 2015 05:20 >> > To: Christian Groves >> > Cc: Christer Holmberg; Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju); mmusic@ietf.org; >> > pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu >> > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal >> > >> > >> > >> > If "use_srtp" extension is specified, there is going to be SRTP/SRTCP >> keying >> > material present and associated with each DTLS cipher state. If DTLS r= e- >> > handshake occurs within the same session, the new RTP/RTCP keying >> material >> > will be negotiated. Since no SRTP/SRTCP packets would be exchanged >> before >> > SRTP/SRTCP stream was added to the bundle, these packets would not >> contribute >> > to cipher state expiration. Cipher state can still expire due to the >> number of >> > data packets transmitted or time, which can still cause new SRTP/SRTCP >> keying >> > material to be negotiated. >> > >> > Technically speaking either DTLS client or server can initiate a >> re-handshake >> > at any time. It is an implementation detail on what would cause a re- >> > handshake, and it can be done based on the number of packets sent or >> received, >> > or based on time. If re-handshake is done based on the number of >> packets, both >> > SRTP/SRTCP and data packets should have separate counters and cause a >> re- >> > handshake once a certain value is passed. >> > >> > As far as I know, DTLS re-handshake is not currently supported by eith= er >> > Chrome or Firefox, which means keying material for both data and >> SRTP/SRTCP >> > will stay the same for the duration of the session. >> > >> > _____________ >> > Roman Shpount >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Christian Groves >> > wrote: >> > >> > To be clear this means that the SRTP and SRTCP ( (because of the >> > possibility of RTP/RTCP muxing) key negotiation occurs even before >> RTP/STRP >> > media is added to the BUNDLE, and the keying material for both are >> maintained >> > for the life of the BUNDLE? If the keys are unused they wouldn't expir= e >> > because max lifetime is based on the number of protected packets. >> > >> > Christian >> > >> >> > --001a1146f2c2c0c36405172c65a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
P.S. I forgot to include, as a reason to always mandate &q= uot;use_srtp" extension, that ability to add extensions on the fly can= be removed in TLS 1.3.

<= div>
_____________
Roman Shpount

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Roman Shpou= nt <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
Christer,

Based on the currents TLS spec= ifications you do *NOT* need to mandate inclusion of =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2= =80=9D until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used. If this extension is not specifie= d you can renegotiate the session with the extension enabled. We should sti= ll recommend it, in order to avoid =C2=A0a=C2=A0renegotiation=C2=A0for that= purpose when SRTP/SRTCP is added. Also, all current implementation will no= t inter-operate unless=C2=A0=E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D extension was=C2=A0i= ncluded from the start, since they do not support=C2=A0renegotiation.
<= br>
I am not the member of TLS working group and TLS 1.3 is still= fairly early to completely specify how it operates. In particular, it does= not include any mechanism for key material update. I am not 100% sure what= is going to be supported there and if extensions can be added and removed = for an existing DTLS session.

Given that:
1. existing implementations will not inter-operate with anything that doe= s renegotiation (and, I have a strong suspicion anything that does not enab= le "use_srtp" extension)
2. renegotiation required to a= dd "use_srtp" extension would add an extra round trip
3= . overhead of always having "use_srtp" extensions is minimal

I would suggest "use_srtp" extension must al= ways be enabled for DTLS session used in bundle.

_____________
Roman Shpount

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:31 AM, GUBALLA, JE= NS (JENS) <jens.guballa@alcatel-lucent.com> wr= ote:
Hi Christer,

> Hi Roman,
>
>
>
> So, if I understand you correctly, we do *NOT* need to mandate inclusi= on of
> =E2=80=9Cuse_srtp=E2=80=9D until SRTP/SRTCP is actually used. However,= we could still
> RECOMMEND it, in order to avoid a re-handshake for that purpose when > SRTP/SRTCP is added.
[JG] You should take into account that renegotiation will be removed= from TLS1.3, refer to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-tl= s13-05.

BTW, I prefer the term "renegotiation" over "re-handshake&qu= ot; or "re-keying", refer to https://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/draft-guballa-tls-terminology-01.

Best regards,
Jens

>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Christer
>
>
>
> From: Roman Shpount [mailto:roman@telurix.com]
> Sent: 28 May 2015 05:20
> To: Christian Groves
> Cc: Christer Holmberg; Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju); mmusic@ietf.org;
> pkyzivat@al= um.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal >
>
>
> If=C2=A0 "use_srtp" extension is specified, there is going t= o be SRTP/SRTCP keying
> material present and associated with each DTLS cipher state. If DTLS r= e-
> handshake occurs within the same session, the new RTP/RTCP keying mate= rial
> will be negotiated. Since no SRTP/SRTCP packets would be exchanged bef= ore
> SRTP/SRTCP stream was added to the bundle, these packets would not con= tribute
> to cipher state expiration. Cipher state can still expire due to the n= umber of
> data packets transmitted or time, which can still cause new SRTP/SRTCP= keying
> material to be negotiated.
>
> Technically speaking either DTLS client or server can initiate a re-ha= ndshake
> at any time. It is an implementation detail on what would cause a re-<= br> > handshake, and it can be done based on the number of packets sent or r= eceived,
> or based on time. If re-handshake is done based on the number of packe= ts, both
> SRTP/SRTCP and data packets should have separate counters and cause a = re-
> handshake once a certain value is passed.
>
> As far as I know, DTLS re-handshake is not currently supported by eith= er
> Chrome or Firefox, which means keying material for both data and SRTP/= SRTCP
> will stay the same for the duration of the session.
>
> _____________
> Roman Shpount
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Christian Groves
> <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To be clear this means that the SRTP and SRT= CP ( (because of the
> possibility of RTP/RTCP muxing) key negotiation occurs even before RTP= /STRP
> media is added to the BUNDLE, and the keying material for both are mai= ntained
> for the life of the BUNDLE? If the keys are unused they wouldn't e= xpire
> because max lifetime is based on the number of protected packets.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Christian
>



--001a1146f2c2c0c36405172c65a2-- From nobody Thu May 28 16:06:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CDA1ACDD3 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U64UoqZy6ryE for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x22e.google.com (mail-yh0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 567E81ACD93 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhda23 with SMTP id a23so15281920yhd.2 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:06:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=x2dt6Zvf3gQJNnJW+x1LqAx8QQe9LrEOA/u3X5OnlJ4=; b=dyX6xJ3EljCDymxI+r6Pp/4l59xz8mS0N5c9almsTuJVIW9zCR0tg7fh2CWyCuOl5q gWV1fS7BpTa1isViusoZyDV8N0pUpM8jBNZfDRS6UMbpPC3d2ZKvv3u+493wqSs+ahbn BnOAa3uNqCG28G86bT16syNEJqcJevCxQC0gE5/nMePz4p6jEJ6sZiqlHQV48mGCfzDC HUD+w3fvaX5TIiRBHrjM5t47S+F4kqGcB7Fb0x4Lv3lDv9ReNaUZYSMYsS29UpXtBFht 92+J2V+KVTf8UoOU7nYBkNDYvmsd8GJldfwpYfDrHiwS31J3myMzyz23vz1y9MoIaaHc iHjQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.41.169 with SMTP id h29mr5266232yhb.100.1432854395764; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.129.110.138 with HTTP; Thu, 28 May 2015 16:06:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 16:06:35 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Roman Shpount Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 23:06:37 -0000 On 28 May 2015 at 16:01, Roman Shpount wrote: > I am not the member of TLS working group and TLS 1.3 is still fairly early > to completely specify how it operates. In particular, it does not include > any mechanism for key material update. I am not 100% sure what is going to > be supported there and if extensions can be added and removed for an > existing DTLS session. I expect that TLS 1.3 will specify a rekeying mechanism, but only for its own records (in this context, that means SCTP). Things that depend on exporters (like DTLS-SRTP) will likely get a single, stable value. I agree with your analysis regarding use_srtp. We certainly behave that way. From nobody Thu May 28 22:25:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D6A1B2A12 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 22:25:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7jxUWnutMyy for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 22:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D99B1A92B4 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 22:24:06 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f794d6d000004501-3b-5567f7f4b770 Received: from ESESSHC016.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 5E.58.17665.4F7F7655; Fri, 29 May 2015 07:24:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.71]) by ESESSHC016.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.66]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Fri, 29 May 2015 07:24:04 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Roman Shpount , "GUBALLA, JENS (JENS)" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal Thread-Index: AdCWueoLsROxlWDYR6SbmQrUuOlHngAPEbUAAFSKmYAABF7jcAABvZYAAAgnpwAAB+VBBwAKFpwAAASvGIAADOHQIAAGWMoAABgdZ4AAACTOAAAQxCcg Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 05:24:03 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86E94F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpjkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3VvfL9/RQg4t3tC2+vG9ksTi42c9i 6vLHLBYrNhxgtZhxYSqzA6tH67O9rB5/339g8liy5CeTx4rzM1k8bk0pCGCN4rJJSc3JLEst 0rdL4Mp4vvMFa0GDScXecyfZGxivGHUxcnJICJhIXFjwhxnCFpO4cG89WxcjF4eQwFFGif4T 01hBEkICixklnp2U72Lk4GATsJDo/qcNYooIJErsa9EEqWAW6GGUWHU+B8QWFnCR+LWkhwXE FhFwlVjx/DczyEgRgSZGiVP9t8BGsgioSlw8tIQNxOYV8JWY9+IbC8Sq/WwSi95ngdicAoES k9cfAKtnBLrt+6k1TBDLxCVuPZnPBHGzgMSSPeeh7heVePn4HyuErSSx9vB2FpA7mQU0Jdbv 0odoVZSY0v2QHWKtoMTJmU9YJjCKzUIydRZCxywkHbOQdCxgZFnFKFqcWlycm25krJdalJlc XJyfp5eXWrKJERhxB7f81t3BuPq14yFGAQ5GJR7eB+vSQoVYE8uKK3MPMUpzsCiJ83p1hYQK CaQnlqRmp6YWpBbFF5XmpBYfYmTi4JRqYHR+cWdZnKf4Ox7F0Gjpue7FN1b/DMs46/Y6cENa sW/J7k97u/O13wZzyESFxkiumn6+o+Pn9l9T6ncrHF7zJaprGvPhO7NfLP8l41Nj0jiVLeXF e06Xd4ui5W4LdNca2oqEzLbK+bR4+o1ZjDFz5/1dyV68Yla7S8gXJx0rqdqbyzb4TH65PFOJ pTgj0VCLuag4EQARBNramQIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 05:25:12 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4gUC5TLiBJIGZvcmdvdCB0byBpbmNsdWRlLCBhcyBhIHJlYXNvbiB0byBhbHdheXMg bWFuZGF0ZSAidXNlX3NydHAiIGV4dGVuc2lvbiwgdGhhdCBhYmlsaXR5IHRvIGFkZCBleHRlbnNp 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<554A3AC8.8020605@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [MMUSIC] Deprecate a=quality in 4566bis ? [Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt] X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 20:05:33 -0000 On 5/6/15 12:01 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 5/5/15 10:17 AM, Ali C. Begen (abegen) wrote: >> This version addresses all the existing issues except: >> >> 1) a=quality is neither well defined nor known to be used. However, >> the chairs (I believe Ari) were supposed to confirm this with SIP >> Forum. A note has been added to the document. > > I posted a query to sip-implementors about this. Thank you Paul. Did you hear anything back ? In either case, does anybody else have any concerns with deprecating this attribute in 4566bis ? -- Flemming From nobody Fri May 29 14:11:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA731AD0AC for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 14:11:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.635 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.635 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1wRkuflYb3ZK for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 14:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C776A1A8931 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 14:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-13v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.109]) by resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ZxBR1q0052N9P4d01xBgwL; Fri, 29 May 2015 21:11:40 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-13v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ZxBf1q00J3Ge9ey01xBfUS; Fri, 29 May 2015 21:11:40 +0000 Message-ID: <5568D60A.20001@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 17:11:38 -0400 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Flemming Andreasen , mmusic@ietf.org References: <20150505141341.12350.74919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <98AC1ED5-BDC6-40AC-BA20-431558245E21@cisco.com> <554A3AC8.8020605@alum.mit.edu> <5568C686.60406@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5568C686.60406@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1432933900; bh=FToFZJLQPzUyqwYhI/BoJRbbpTrrHIuJEeKnBh2vmNQ=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=DH+iXbKfdJEqY2Y0v+XNzXzWh7XYHHVp8OjKWfkKkEA6MtYiAsAbI2RTdlL/RO4wW 1Evr5tqcOtlsPyRNXzfJ+Db1h47E/MbJFWoj2UygnUEgE16tRdb3EhN4tWbE4i7Sim yKHejCkszmjVVVIPwLfv76Jsn+fPajmT34lGN0qsETfFx4Z2j/v6J6TAPM6CB2CTUl l4V/6Mi2roMx3xo2259s3BYnsDvkjreQuYekZ041rFTWyGrU9aNAndyxQvd5iZLg3w aqLNa4us9ugt6oyNcCWfiWIO74ni51aMfs3G57sWsF7pcwi914tOlBbsZo35rc+Wb9 dhT64u1PUsU4g== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Deprecate a=quality in 4566bis ? [Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc4566bis-15.txt] X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 21:11:41 -0000 On 5/29/15 4:05 PM, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > > > On 5/6/15 12:01 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> On 5/5/15 10:17 AM, Ali C. Begen (abegen) wrote: >>> This version addresses all the existing issues except: >>> >>> 1) a=quality is neither well defined nor known to be used. However, >>> the chairs (I believe Ari) were supposed to confirm this with SIP >>> Forum. A note has been added to the document. >> >> I posted a query to sip-implementors about this. > Thank you Paul. Did you hear anything back ? I had no responses indicating any use. Thanks, Paul > In either case, does anybody else have any concerns with deprecating > this attribute in 4566bis ? > > -- Flemming > > > From nobody Sat May 30 17:09:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6671B2A61 for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RzJ3fVxNXH40 for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-f177.google.com (mail-ig0-f177.google.com [209.85.213.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B51C1B2A5A for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbpi8 with SMTP id pi8so38661250igb.0 for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=3TBn4G2UxKgQ3Wi2Ub1OPXKzNTXcH9nFKWw9/QkoIjg=; b=MGyJuy4eLWf95Auo7YK/+3AyhKaH8009M7QNn0QL7jE9miiIKSQqO/SQk3lnF8cSZR 3yg5H5tS5iZACIoItb8VtrI+I//ygMECCU2EGcNiRXFvsc26qFyJKEvYL/m8kGN7H8Kx D3CDkMlG2UGErjWrWJVbZx51E9bKecDHxv7NPunyeswjk3izKVCpM+Nxx20A6Olty68l ZCkl8mH1WDvKlFp+UtQYVAVJEc8zqF4rNmSYb1zWGS9eGuBdDg6NW8Vuvpf2BnP2xUgu 8mvMSlokD8jp4OMkYrfQN2Fhm1dl9QwONDF/aAdxQRavGcdeiGN8SCMYOwD8+vVGhdyN Fo3w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlNRLnF5b0+EDfW64PGJuw+Xhq/Bo++CkteMGGEyOedZzxeWBI2+LOargFaaM+GmGrWF6Ej X-Received: by 10.107.136.38 with SMTP id k38mr18367340iod.56.1433030988965; Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-f172.google.com (mail-ig0-f172.google.com. [209.85.213.172]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id o15sm4667627igw.11.2015.05.30.17.09.46 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbjd9 with SMTP id jd9so38673861igb.1 for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.32.73 with SMTP id sj9mr1722642icb.96.1433030986171; Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.89.70 with HTTP; Sat, 30 May 2015 17:09:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86E94F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86E94F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 20:09:46 -0400 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51a8be2e20c0d0517558620 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 00:09:51 -0000 --bcaec51a8be2e20c0d0517558620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > >I would suggest "use_srtp" extension must always be enabled for DTLS > session used in bundle. > > Assuming SRTP is supported, I assume. If a node doesn't support SRTP to > begin with, or if an application is never going to offer (or accept if > offered) SRTP, I guess there is no reason to mandate "use_srtp". > > Now, there are statements in RFC 5764 saying e.g.: > > "This extension MUST only be used when the data being transported > is RTP or RTCP [RFC3550]." > > That of course makes sense for a non-BUNDLE DTLS connection, but I wonder > whether we somehow explicitly need to say that it doesn't apply for BUNDLE? > > Another big question how would current browser implementations handle a DTLS connection without "use_srtp" extension. I have a strong suspicion that DTLS session setup will fail without this extension present. I think, WebRTC enabled browsers currently export SRTP key material during session setup even if no SRTP traffic is ever sent or received by this connection and fail the entire connection if key export fails. This, most likely, can be modified to only export SRTP key material when SRTP session is actually created and defining some sort of fall back procedure when a media track is actually added to a connection without "use_srtp" (either failure or require renegotiation with new transport). To conclude, the group can either decide that all DTLS sessions in bundle should be setup with "use_srtp" extension and keep the current implementations working as they are currently coded, or allow not to include this extension and fix the implementations. _____________ Roman Shpount --bcaec51a8be2e20c0d0517558620 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, May 29, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holm= berg@ericsson.com> wrote:

>I would suggest "use_srtp" extension must always be enabled f= or DTLS session used in bundle.

Assuming SRTP is supported, I assume. If a node doesn't support = SRTP to begin with, or if an application is never going to offer (or accept= if offered) SRTP, I guess there is no reason to mandate "use_srtp&quo= t;.

Now, there are statements in RFC 5764 saying e.g.:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "This extension MUST only be used when the= data being transported is RTP or RTCP [RFC3550]."

That of course makes sense for a non-BUNDLE DTLS connection, but I wonder w= hether we somehow explicitly need to say that it doesn't apply for BUND= LE?


Another big question how would current= browser implementations handle a DTLS connection without "use_srtp&qu= ot; extension. I have a strong suspicion that DTLS session setup will fail = without this extension present. I think, WebRTC enabled browsers currently = export SRTP key material during session setup even if no SRTP traffic is ev= er sent or received by this connection and fail the entire connection if ke= y export fails. This, most likely, can be modified to only export SRTP key = material when SRTP session is actually created and defining some sort of fa= ll back procedure when a media track is actually added to a connection with= out "use_srtp" (either failure or require renegotiation with new = transport).

To conclude, the group can either deci= de that all DTLS sessions in bundle should be setup with "use_srtp&quo= t; extension and keep the current implementations working as they are curre= ntly coded, or allow not to include this extension and fix the implementati= ons.
_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
--bcaec51a8be2e20c0d0517558620-- From nobody Sun May 31 00:02:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8779F1ACE2A for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:02:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8MmwwOuLfnEs for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9296E1ACDD5 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:02:42 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79b66d000001131-18-556ab21017bb Received: from ESESSHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 49.39.04401.012BA655; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.71]) by ESESSHC005.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:02:39 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Roman Shpount Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal Thread-Index: AdCWueoLsROxlWDYR6SbmQrUuOlHngAPEbUAAFSKmYAABF7jcAABvZYAAAgnpwAAB+VBBwAKFpwAAASvGIAADOHQIAAGWMoAABgdZ4AAACTOAAAQxCcgAFYOwAAAEf8kYA== Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 07:02:39 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8736D0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55634C34.4080304@alum.mit.edu> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86E94F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3VldgU1aowcevohZf3jeyWBzc7Gcx dfljFosVGw6wWsy4MJXZgdWj9dleVo+/7z8weSxZ8pPJY8X5mSwet6YUBLBGcdmkpOZklqUW 6dslcGU83FNUMEus4u28tywNjBdEuxg5OSQETCQ2z/nHDGGLSVy4t56ti5GLQ0jgKKPEm/PP 2SGcxYwSj05tY+pi5OBgE7CQ6P6nDdIgIqAq8ff7ZCaQGmaBE4wSP2fvYAdJCAu4SPxa0sMC UeQqseL5b2aQIhGBSYwS579PZwNJsAB1r9jUAVbEK+Ar0f1lDiuILSRwil2i42gEyDJOgUCJ 00fyQcKMQNd9P7WGCcRmFhCXuPVkPhPE1QISS/ach/pAVOLl43+sELaSxIrtlxhBxjALaEqs 36UP0aooMaX7ITvEVkGJkzOfsExgFJuFZOoshI5ZSDpmIelYwMiyilG0OLU4KTfdyFgvtSgz ubg4P08vL7VkEyMw5g5u+a26g/HyG8dDjAIcjEo8vArZWaFCrIllxZW5hxilOViUxHk9u0JC hQTSE0tSs1NTC1KL4otKc1KLDzEycXBKNTD6/jD9e/bYLd1Qvh0/ix5tECky+sDyr/95psKs 93eWJ/xvrTkkFdHsxDq3r77d+sdB5cfn7Q6pBXjvCJbeIHCgfdWnuIe5K9YmzAzpDmhmCc7U WsE7mz84RCFewZr9dduUle2La7Rfh865/9rZWdFrn5rrwiDDMyfspyfcXS9z6lqmytYWtfVK LMUZiYZazEXFiQDick4rmgIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" , "pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 07:02:44 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4+PiBJIHdvdWxkIHN1Z2dlc3QgInVzZV9zcnRwIiBleHRlbnNpb24gbXVzdCBhbHdh eXMgYmUgZW5hYmxlZCBmb3IgRFRMUyBzZXNzaW9uIHVzZWQgaW4gYnVuZGxlLg0KPj4NCj4+IEFz c3VtaW5nIFNSVFAgaXMgc3VwcG9ydGVkLCBJIGFzc3VtZS4gSWYgYSBub2RlIGRvZXNuJ3Qgc3Vw cG9ydCBTUlRQIHRvIA0KPj4gYmVnaW4gd2l0aCwgb3IgaWYgYW4gYXBwbGljYXRpb24gaXMgbmV2 ZXIgZ29pbmcgdG8gb2ZmZXIgKG9yIGFjY2VwdCBpZiBvZmZlcmVkKSANCj4+IFNSVFAsIEkgZ3Vl c3MgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gcmVhc29uIHRvIG1hbmRhdGUgInVzZV9zcnRwIi4NCj4+DQo+PiBOb3cs IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBzdGF0ZW1lbnRzIGluIFJGQyA1NzY0IHNheWluZyBlLmcuOg0KPj4NCj4+IMKg IMKgIMKgICJUaGlzIGV4dGVuc2lvbiBNVVNUIG9ubHkgYmUgdXNlZCB3aGVuIHRoZSBkYXRhIGJl aW5nIHRyYW5zcG9ydGVkIGlzIFJUUCBvciBSVENQIFtSRkMzNTUwXS4iDQo+Pg0KPj4gVGhhdCBv ZiBjb3Vyc2UgbWFrZXMgc2Vuc2UgZm9yIGEgbm9uLUJVTkRMRSBEVExTIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24sIGJ1 dCBJIHdvbmRlciANCj4+IHdoZXRoZXIgd2Ugc29tZWhvdyBleHBsaWNpdGx5IG5lZWQgdG8gc2F5 IHRoYXQgaXQgZG9lc24ndCBhcHBseSBmb3IgQlVORExFPw0KPg0KPiBBbm90aGVyIGJpZyBxdWVz dGlvbiBob3cgd291bGQgY3VycmVudCBicm93c2VyIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBoYW5kbGUgYSBE VExTIA0KPiBjb25uZWN0aW9uIHdpdGhvdXQgInVzZV9zcnRwIiBleHRlbnNpb24uIEkgaGF2ZSBh IHN0cm9uZyBzdXNwaWNpb24gdGhhdCBEVExTIHNlc3Npb24gDQo+IHNldHVwIHdpbGwgZmFpbCB3 aXRob3V0IHRoaXMgZXh0ZW5zaW9uIHByZXNlbnQuDQo+DQo+IEkgdGhpbmssIFdlYlJUQyBlbmFi bGVkIGJyb3dzZXJzIGN1cnJlbnRseSBleHBvcnQgU1JUUCBrZXkgbWF0ZXJpYWwgZHVyaW5nIA0K PiBzZXNzaW9uIHNldHVwIGV2ZW4gaWYgbm8gU1JUUCB0cmFmZmljIGlzIGV2ZXIgc2VudCBvciBy ZWNlaXZlZCBieSB0aGlzIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gDQo+IGFuZCBmYWlsIHRoZSBlbnRpcmUgY29ubmVj dGlvbiBpZiBrZXkgZXhwb3J0IGZhaWxzLiBUaGlzLCBtb3N0IGxpa2VseSwgY2FuIGJlIG1vZGlm aWVkIA0KPiB0byBvbmx5IGV4cG9ydCBTUlRQIGtleSBtYXRlcmlhbCB3aGVuIFNSVFAgc2Vzc2lv biBpcyBhY3R1YWxseSBjcmVhdGVkIGFuZCANCj4gZGVmaW5pbmcgc29tZSBzb3J0IG9mIGZhbGwg YmFjayBwcm9jZWR1cmUgd2hlbiBhIG1lZGlhIHRyYWNrIGlzIGFjdHVhbGx5IA0KPiBhZGRlZCB0 byBhIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gd2l0aG91dCAidXNlX3NydHAiIChlaXRoZXIgZmFpbHVyZSBvciByZXF1 aXJlIHJlbmVnb3RpYXRpb24gd2l0aCBuZXcgdHJhbnNwb3J0KS4NCg0KQW55b25lIGZyb20gdGhl IGJyb3dzZXIgY29tbXVuaXR5IHRoYXQgY2FuIGNvbW1lbnQgb24gdGhpcz8NCg0KPiBUbyBjb25j bHVkZSwgdGhlIGdyb3VwIGNhbiBlaXRoZXIgZGVjaWRlIHRoYXQgYWxsIERUTFMgc2Vzc2lvbnMg aW4gYnVuZGxlIHNob3VsZCBiZSBzZXR1cCANCj4gd2l0aCAidXNlX3NydHAiIGV4dGVuc2lvbiBh bmQga2VlcCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgd29ya2luZyBhcyB0aGV5IGFyZSAN Cj4gY3VycmVudGx5IGNvZGVkLCBvciBhbGxvdyBub3QgdG8gaW5jbHVkZSB0aGlzIGV4dGVuc2lv biBhbmQgZml4IHRoZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMuDQoNCkN1cnJlbnRseSwgSSBhbSBub3QgYXdh cmUgb2YgYW55IHNjZW5hcmlvcyB3aGVyZSBwZW9wbGUgd291bGQgdXNlIEJVTkRMRSB3aXRob3V0 IFNSVFAgLSBvciBhdCBsZWFzdCB1c2luZyBjbGllbnRzIHRoYXQgd291bGRuJ3Qgc3VwcG9ydCBT UlRQLg0KDQpCdXQsIGFzIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IHRyZW5kIHNlZW1zIHRvIGJlIHRvIHB1dCBtb3Jl IGFuZCBtb3JlIHByb3RvY29scyBvbiBEVExTLCBJIHRoaW5rIG9uZSBjYW4gYXNzdW1lIHRoYXQg dGhlcmUgd2lsbCBhbHNvIGJlIHVzZS1jYXNlcyB3aXRob3V0IFNSVFAgaW4gZnV0dXJlLg0KDQpS ZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpDaHJpc3Rlcg0KDQo= From nobody Sun May 31 06:38:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5183E1A1BE9 for ; 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Sun, 31 May 2015 15:38:19 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "mmusic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Review of 4566bis Thread-Index: AdCUW7+SbP6HhSmGSPuNOkn7YTpkVg== Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 13:38:19 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D873B05@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D873B05ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre4ZvuxQg+l/ZCz+7U2ymLr8MYsD k8eSJT+ZPL5c/swWwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlXG+Ib3g0A7Giu0L97M3MH6az9jFyMEhIWAi 0bDKp4uRE8gUk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DAUUaJIzffMkE4ixkl9rfdZAdpYBOwkOj+pw3SICKgLvF1 bw8ziM0s4Chx9tZ2JhBbWEBKYuOiJcwQNfIS7VuvsUDYehKdt7awgIxhEVCVuD7VAiTMK+Ar sfnJd3YQmxHohu+n1jBBjBSXuPVkPhPEbQISS/acZ4awRSVePv7HCmErSSy6/RmqPl9i8sku doiZghInZz5hmcAoPAvJqFlIymYhKYOI60gs2P2JDcLWlli28DUzjH3mwGMmZPEFjOyrGEWL U4uTctONjPVSizKTi4vz8/TyUks2MQJj5+CW36o7GC+/cTzEKMDBqMTDq5CdFSrEmlhWXJl7 iFGag0VJnNezKyRUSCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUovqg0J7X4ECMTB6dUA2Nxb3LdZt/YBs9KlVUTbjyt N4g4f37bDa/QE5c0ph99ucFNY3vwkjQRofkBPDtaXV0UGL+9+vxgn5oqw9E3ohdnyd07/nHy hB6rN6q895fO9F+ZG9S+diWv8w/pmTJzOl9qfF27rszTYtIR8S1ciYaFXP/ctEKDFn4WeNTP JRabubY5Qiyiw1eJpTgj0VCLuag4EQBbQ8cOfgIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [MMUSIC] Review of 4566bis X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 13:38:26 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D873B05ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Below is my review of the 4566bis-14 document. General: ------------ QG_1: There has been some discussions on the list whether we should remove some o= f the attributes which are either semantically unclear and/or nobody is usi= ng. QG_2: I think the draft should be checked for consistent terminology. For example= , sometimes "SDP session description" is used, and sometimes only "session = description". QG_3: The "Session Announcement Protocol" enhancement is needed only within the f= irst occurrence. After that "SAP" is enough. Section 4.1: --------------- Q4-1_1: s/the transport protocol/the media transport protocol Section 4.3: --------------- Q4-3_1: My suggestion would be to remove the whole section. I can't remember any di= scussion where one would have used private vs public sessions. The Security= Considerations should then cover encryption etc of SDP information. Section 4.4: --------------- Q4-4_1: The text says: "A session description should convey enough information to decide whether o= r not to participate in a session." I don't think that is true - at least not when SDP is used together with a = protocol like SIP. SDP describes the media associated with the session - bu= t there are many other properties which are used to determined whether to p= articipate in a session. Section 5.2: ---------------- Q5-2_1: The text says that the o=3D line contains the address of the host. But, we've had discussions about not providing the host address once the in= itial SDP offer is sent, so I wonder whether some relaxing text would be ne= eded here. Section 5.4: --------------- The text says: "There MUST be at most one session-level "i=3D" field per session descripti= on, and at most one "i=3D" field per media." ...and later: "A single "i=3D" field MAY also be used for each media definition." Q5-4_1: In the first sentence, I guess it should say "field per media description/d= efinition"? Q5-4_2: Is the second sentence really needed? What is the difference from the first= sentence? Q5-4_3: Similar to e.g. the "c=3D" line, I guess it would be useful to say that, un= less an media level "i=3D" line is defined, the session level "i=3D" line a= pplies to that media description. Section 5.5: --------------- Q5-5_1: The text says: "...but if it is present it MUST be specified before the first media field.= " Is that text needed? Session level attributes are always specified before t= he first media field, aren't they? Section 5.6: --------------- Q5-6_1: The text says: "Note that the previous version of SDP specified that either an email field= or a phone field MUST be specified, but this was widely ignored. The chang= e brings the specification into line with common usage." In my opinion, any reference to the previous version of SDP, and the justif= ication for change, should be covered in section 10, only in section 10, an= d nowhere else but in section 10 :) Q5-6_2: The text, talking about the name of the person, says: "This MUST be enclosed in parentheses if it is present." But, then, when the text talk about the name quoting convention, the name i= s given without enclosed parentheses. So, I think some re-wording would be needed. Section 6: ------------- Q6_1: In some of the sub-sections, there is text saying: "This can be a session-level attribute or a media-level attribute." I think such text can be removed, as it is already indicated in "Usage leve= l". Q6_2: In some of the sub-sections, it is indicated that a media-level attribute v= alue overrides a session-level attribute value. As far as I know, that appl= ies to all attributes (that can be present both on the session-level and me= dia-level), so there should be a generic statement about that. This is similar to the comment on the c=3D line. Section 6.7: --------------- Q6-7_1: The text says: "If any one of these appears in a media section then it applies for that media section. If none appear in a media section then the one from session level, if any, applies to that media section." There should be a general statement in the draft about session level inform= ation applying to the media level. Section 6.7.4: ----------------- Q6-7-4_1: The text says: "Note that an RTP-based system SHOULD still send RTCP, even if started inac= tive." It should be clarified that this applies if RTCP is used to begin with. Also, is there a reason why we couldn't use MUST instead of SHOULD? Section 6.11: ----------------- The text says that the attribute "specifies the language" of the session de= scription. There has been some confusion about what that really means, so I think it w= ould be good to clarify that it applies to any textual information that may= be provided within the description. It would also be good to explicitly indicate that the attribute is not rela= ted to languages used in the actual media streams. Section 6.12: ----------------- The text says: "...., in which case the order of the attributes indicates the order of imp= ortance of the various languages in the session or media, from most importa= nt to least important." First, I thought that attribute order has no meaning. Second, what does "importance of the various languages" really mean? The la= nguage is what it is, and the participants decide what is important. Section 8.2.3: ------------------ The text says: "Formats cover all the possible encodings that might want to be transported= in a multimedia session." Q8-2-3_1: I think the "might want to be transported" is confusion, and needs to be re= -written. Q8-2-3_2: The fmt does not contain the complete list for the session - only the list = for the associated media description. Regards, Christer --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D873B05ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hi,

 

Below is my review of the 4566bis-14 document.<= /o:p>

 

General:

------------

 

QG_1:

 

There has been some discussions on the list whether = we should remove some of the attributes which are either semantically uncle= ar and/or nobody is using.

 

 

QG_2:

 

I think the draft should be checked for consistent t= erminology. For example, sometimes “SDP session description” is= used, and sometimes only “session description”.

 

 

QG_3:

 

The “Session Announcement Protocol” enha= ncement is needed only within the first occurrence. After that “SAP&#= 8221; is enough.

 

 

Section 4.1:

---------------

 

Q4-1_1:

 

s/the transport protocol/the media transport protoco= l

 

 

Section 4.3:

---------------

 

Q4-3_1:

 

My suggestion would be to remove the whole section. = I can’t remember any discussion where one would have used private vs = public sessions. The Security Considerations should then cover encryption e= tc of SDP information.

 

 

Section 4.4:

---------------

 

Q4-4_1:

 

The text says:

 

“A session descri= ption should convey enough information to decide whether or not to particip= ate in a session.”

 

I don’t think that is true – at least no= t when SDP is used together with a protocol like SIP. SDP describes the med= ia associated with the session – but there are many other properties = which are used to determined whether to participate in a session. 

 

 

Section 5.2:

----------------

 

Q5-2_1:

 

The text says that the o=3D line contains the addres= s of the host.

 

But, we’ve had discussions about not providing= the host address once the initial SDP offer is sent, so I wonder whether s= ome relaxing text would be needed here.

 

 

Section 5.4:

---------------

 

The text says:

 

“There MUST be at most one session-level "= ;i=3D" field per session description, and at most one "i=3D"= field per media.”

 

…and later:

 

“A single "i=3D" field MAY also be u= sed for each media definition.”

 

 

Q5-4_1:

 

In the first sentence, I guess it should say “= field per media description/definition”?

 

 

Q5-4_2:

 

Is the second sentence really needed? What is the di= fference from the first sentence?

 

 

Q5-4_3:

 

Similar to e.g. the “c=3D” line, I guess= it would be useful to say that, unless an media level “i=3D” l= ine is defined, the session level “i=3D” line applies to that m= edia description.

 

 

Section 5.5:

---------------

 

Q5-5_1:

 

The text says:

 

“…but if it is present it MUST be specif= ied before the first media field.”

 

Is that text needed? Session level attributes are al= ways specified before the first media field, aren’t they?<= /p>

 

 

Section 5.6:

---------------

 

Q5-6_1:

 

The text says:

 

“Note that the previous version of SDP specifi= ed that either an email field or a phone field MUST be specified, but this = was widely ignored. The change brings the specification into line with comm= on usage.”

 

In my opinion, any reference to the previous version= of SDP, and the justification for change, should be covered in section 10,= only in section 10, and nowhere else but in section 10 :)

 

 

Q5-6_2:

 

The text, talking about the name of the person, says= :

 

“This MUST be enclosed in parentheses if it is= present.”

 

But, then, when the text talk about the name quoting= convention, the name is given without enclosed parentheses.

 

So, I think some re-wording would be needed.

 

 

Section 6:

-------------

 

Q6_1:

 

In some of the sub-sections, there is text saying:

 

“This can be a session-level attribute or a me= dia-level attribute.”

 

I think such text can be removed, as it is already i= ndicated in “Usage level”.

 

 

Q6_2:

 

In some of the sub-sections, it is indicated that a = media-level attribute value overrides a session-level attribute value. As f= ar as I know, that applies to all attributes (that can be present both on t= he session-level and media-level), so there should be a generic statement about that.

 

This is similar to the comment on the c=3D line.

 

 

Section 6.7:

---------------

 

Q6-7_1:

 

The text says:

 

   “If any one of these appears in a= media section then it applies for

   that media section.  If none appea= r in a media section then the one

   from session level, if any, applies to = that media section.”

 

There should be a general statement in the draft abo= ut session level information applying to the media level.

 

 

Section 6.7.4:

-----------------

 

Q6-7-4_1:

 

The text says:

 

“Note that an RTP-based system SHOULD still se= nd RTCP, even if started inactive.”

 

It should be clarified that this applies if RTCP is = used to begin with.

 

Also, is there a reason why we couldn’t use MU= ST instead of SHOULD?

 

 

Section 6.11:

-----------------

 

The text says that the attribute “specifies th= e language” of the session description.

 

There has been some confusion about what that really= means, so I think it would be good to clarify that it applies to any textu= al information that may be provided within the description.

 

It would also be good to explicitly indicate that th= e attribute is not related to languages used in the actual media streams.

 

 

Section 6.12:

-----------------

 

The text says:

 

“…., in which case the order of the attr= ibutes indicates the order of importance of the various languages in the se= ssion or media, from most important to least important.”

 

First, I thought that attribute order has no meaning= .

 

Second, what does “importance of the various l= anguages” really mean? The language is what it is, and the participan= ts decide what is important.

 

 

Section 8.2.3:

------------------

 

The text says:

 

“Formats cover all the possible encodings that= might want to be transported in a multimedia session.”

 

Q8-2-3_1:

 

I think the “might want to be transported̶= 1; is confusion, and needs to be re-written.

 

Q8-2-3_2:

 

The fmt does not contain the complete list for the s= ession – only the list for the associated media description.

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D873B05ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Sun May 31 10:28:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F7D1A8738 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PMwa4OmH_X6R for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 10:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A14F1A8737 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 10:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.98]) by resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ahTT1q00327uzMh01hUAt0; Sun, 31 May 2015 17:28:10 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ahU81q00G3Ge9ey01hU91W; Sun, 31 May 2015 17:28:10 +0000 Message-ID: <556B44A7.2070800@alum.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 13:28:07 -0400 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christer Holmberg , Roman Shpount References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D852384@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5565838D.2020005@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D866141@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8689E9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <55665BFA.4020600@nteczone.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86C915@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <547EE95EB794FD4DB8062F7A4C86D0BC4A36371A@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D86E94F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8736D0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D8736D0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1433093290; bh=j+yBKC7l049yK92qwB2zg6ar9wxqLl3AG0zicPgZLpw=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=Rn+bYcVZU3/RNIaeOGtMjzSGHZNnjEnM6yipw21QrYzif+RVaz9YM7oshSRI5ACv8 HP/pfV9ZzKAjeifHPD8z35EBSHjnjLdX90XZiiZCr6ajiZn7BPDz1KXtB5WT9S+NUw TArSFAQ4rDnUeMuBmvg2ROkx8oYUwx0CBItQRMY3scyE0Bt6xEv5ZNkCLAPmJPjtkY 8VFAtEQJy607KNr2EW+cUUCFVXEKl8V/g+rTWwj/Kr295gTHTuBXxCx6pZG12YQAjb AJXlm0vYqre+uffzjQ+0TNa35LbQNWq6XDZYKfjC36N3+HKfEmu0MK45laSJZUem12 p68+SkakBXElQ== Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundling data channel and RTP? - Text proposal X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 17:28:12 -0000 On 5/31/15 3:02 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Currently, I am not aware of any scenarios where people would use BUNDLE without SRTP - or at least using clients that wouldn't support SRTP. > > But, as the current trend seems to be to put more and more protocols on DTLS, I think one can assume that there will also be use-cases without SRTP in future. As things stand, if you use data channels and don't use/support RTP, then there is no reason to use BUNDLE - you don't have anything, even potentially, to bundle with the data channel. So, until and unless there is something else that can be bundled with data channel over DTLS then this is a moot issue. Thanks, Paul From nobody Sun May 31 10:43:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mmusic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC371A8765 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 10:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CnZnK5ZMKUyK for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 10:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13FDC1A802A for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 10:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-18v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.114]) by resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ahio1q0052Udklx01hjWVE; Sun, 31 May 2015 17:43:30 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([50.138.229.151]) by resomta-ch2-18v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ahjW1q00J3Ge9ey01hjWGl; Sun, 31 May 2015 17:43:30 +0000 Message-ID: <556B4841.605@alum.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 13:43:29 -0400 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mmusic@ietf.org References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D873B05@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D873B05@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1433094210; bh=jxu6nJFC8gwK+wdiOpjCkIFeytoAvSaBboKZQqF3Kws=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=YWzX+xMWkVtDB/Mm1k/ejS6aSiNBAslC7lg20E7fk7gZEf5wnkjvze9dP1/FH0ZDh SXNYPsUtKOMYoESAciF9OnHmKSPlOO34iDlhKSUA5imLBxOxzHEK/mSJNdLqar5Ve3 ll0ha6m96tdciuIzsrge6Qv/mFvSlWahPuB8zVKiF0YESs4d48iJSlx8hzRiCjFxxm 56ED9sKdnQLSXXKmTMbiL903c/z/K0o9mktBvH9Bp+vm/BbCMin7gV+Xn0NXJ1Uyu+ DPjEAhsq9VduUdeUPX+7Bsgd0PilbluLxjM8Ev/pTDePGgviyOSxl7rviiJ+vT0XE1 ktA64RifnyM/w== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Review of 4566bis X-BeenThere: mmusic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 17:43:33 -0000 On 5/31/15 9:38 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: Good list Christer! I have comments on a few of your issues: > Q6_2: > > In some of the sub-sections, it is indicated that a media-level > attribute value overrides a session-level attribute value. As far as I > know, that applies to all attributes (that can be present both on the > session-level and media-level), so there should be a generic statement > about that. > > This is similar to the comment on the c= line. I used to think this, but I think there are some exceptions. (But I don't offhand remember what they are.) > Section 6.7: > > --------------- > > Q6-7_1: > > The text says: > > “If any one of these appears in a media section then it applies for > > that media section. If none appear in a media section then the one > > from session level, if any, applies to that media section.” > > There should be a general statement in the draft about session level > information applying to the media level. I wish there could be a general statement, but it is hard, given exceptions. Perhaps there could be a general statement with note that it can be overridden in particular cases. But in any case, *this* is different, because it says that the presence of any *one* of four different attributes at media level overrides the presence of any one of those four at session level. > Section 6.11: > > ----------------- > > The text says that the attribute “specifies the language” of the session > description. > > There has been some confusion about what that really means, so I think > it would be good to clarify that it applies to any textual information > that may be provided within the description. > > It would also be good to explicitly indicate that the attribute is not > related to languages used in the actual media streams. +1 Thanks, Paul