From zehjrs@go2.pl Fri Mar 4 12:27:45 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08367; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [69.15.46.83] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7Gc8-000856-P9; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:29:27 -0500 Received: from symphony-61.go2.pl ([80.94.156.40]:1906 "HELO mail.go2.pl") by go2.pl with SMTP id ; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:25:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:22:34 +0400 Message-Id: <4.3.90.2081924.0083fc70@go2.pl> From: "Todd Alexander" To: Subject: Hello X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: LKQLMTEA List-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----------A48356845382213" X-Spam-Score: 18.3 (++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 2ce306e4307a2c0b518ae453b13efdd0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------A48356845382213 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------A85031401794097" ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset = "us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.runninshit.info/mortgage.asp. ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit adrift footman

 
 
 
 
 
 
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http://www.runninshit.info/mortgage.asp It's time to fix up your situation for once and for all
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ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09057; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from 84-122-49-202.onocable.ono.com ([84.122.49.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7Gev-00089o-0L; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:32:38 -0500 Received: from symphony-69.go2.pl ([10.224.2.72]:1906 "HELO mail.go2.pl") by go2.pl with SMTP id ; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:28:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:23:52 +0200 Message-Id: <6.1.86.2081924.0083fc70@go2.pl> From: "Nona Aragon" To: Subject: Congrats - You have finally made it. X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: LKQLMTEA List-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----------A48356845382213" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ce306e4307a2c0b518ae453b13efdd0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------A48356845382213 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------A85031401794097" ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset = "us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.runninshit.info/mortgage.asp. ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit plaintiff profile

 
 
 
 
 
 
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http://www.runninshit.info/mortgage.asp It's time to fix up your situation for once and for all
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ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09321; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:31:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7Gfg-0008EP-53; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:33:07 -0500 Received: from [220.69.217.165] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1D7Ge2-0008DS-0T; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:31:23 -0500 Received: from symphony-69.go2.pl ([10.224.2.72]:1906 "HELO mail.go2.pl") by go2.pl with SMTP id ; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:28:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:23:52 +0200 Message-Id: <6.1.86.2081924.0083fc70@go2.pl> From: "Nona Aragon" To: Subject: Congrats - You have finally made it. X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: LKQLMTEA List-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----------A48356845382213" X-Spam-Score: 5.9 (+++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 2ce306e4307a2c0b518ae453b13efdd0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------A48356845382213 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------A85031401794097" ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset = "us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.runninshit.info/mortgage.asp. ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit plaintiff profile

 
 
 
 
 
 
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http://www.runninshit.info/mortgage.asp It's time to fix up your situation for once and for all
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from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07100 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8ADn-000834-P8 for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:51:59 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8ABU-0006sR-JR; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:49:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8ABS-0006ra-J3 for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:49:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07081 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:49:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from wyvern.icir.org ([192.150.187.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8ADZ-00082o-Pb for imrg@irtf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:51:46 -0500 Received: from guns.icir.org (adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [68.76.113.50]) by wyvern.icir.org (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j274nVla020626 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:49:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mallman@icir.org) Received: from lawyers.icir.org (guns.icir.org [68.76.113.50]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91A677AA80 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from lawyers.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lawyers.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B01F24FF76 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:32:21 -0500 (EST) To: imrg@irtf.org From: Mark Allman Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: Cadillac Ranch MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:32:20 -0500 Message-Id: <20050307023221.1B01F24FF76@lawyers.icir.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Subject: [IMRG] imrg futures X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mallman@icir.org List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0888521470==" Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 --===============0888521470== Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_bOundary"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=_bOundary Content-Type: text/plain Hi folks! IMRG has been pretty quiet lately, with not much percolating off-list either. So, I have started to wonder whether this RG is needed or whether we should consider it done. From my viewpoint this RG was created as an umbrella under which various activities across network measurement could be pursued. And, to an extent that has happened (with workshops and review teams and such). However, I think we need to either come up with a use for this RG or just wrap it up. So, if you have something that you think would benefit from operating under the auspices of the IMRG, please let me know (or, the list). And, remember that this is an open RG, but the charter explicitly calls out the fact that certain activities can be closed. As long as there is some reporting to the community I would be very happy to have some closed sorts of group working on things because I think it can be conducive to rapid progress. (That doesn't mean I think open activities shouldn't be undertaken.) Please let me know what you think ... (Oh, I am on my way to IETF right now, so if you want to chat in person this week and will be around, shoot me an email and we'll work something out.) Thanks! allman (IMRG chair) -- Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ --=_bOundary Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCK700WyrrWs4yIs4RAnw1AJ4mOmedkE/R6V4wMB3CR9nH+Q9jowCfRfa9 +/tWAvrTo167xQDw7T61D+c= =T25X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_bOundary-- --===============0888521470== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg --===============0888521470==-- From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 9 21:42:40 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20348 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9Dg2-0001TR-Mn for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:45:30 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9DZQ-0003Wa-1d; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:38:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9DZO-0003WV-DI for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:38:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA19835 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:38:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluebox.cs.princeton.edu ([128.112.136.38]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9Dc5-0001LI-Nx for imrg@irtf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:41:27 -0500 Received: from Rexford (rexford.CS.Princeton.EDU [128.112.95.67]) (authenticated bits=0) by bluebox.CS.Princeton.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2A2cWn3003271 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:38:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503100238.j2A2cWn3003271@bluebox.CS.Princeton.EDU> From: "Jennifer Rexford" To: Subject: RE: [IMRG] imrg futures Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:38:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <20050307023221.1B01F24FF76@lawyers.icir.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUi0To1TIJGIQ5vQJG0NtcWKYVIWACR2ZEA X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: imrg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Hi, thanks for getting the ball rolling. Here are a few thoughts to give the ball an additional kick. I'm not sure which of these (if any) make sense specifically in a context like IMRG, but these are some measurement-related things I've been thinking or wondering about... - Education/curriculum: What do we think a measurement-oriented researcher needs to know -- about things like (i) conducting experiments, analyzing data, etc. and (ii) key results from past work in the area of Internet measurement? That is, what would we consider the underlying skills and knowledge that researchers in this space should have? Most folks didn't start out as measurement people, and many of us are computer scientists by training and don't (by default) get much training in conducting experimental work and dealing with data. What do we all wish we had learned before embarking on this kind of work? - Network support for measurement: What basic functionality for measurement would we like to see in network elements and protocols? Here the emphasis could be on support that is minimal in its overhead and opertionally feasible (e.g., people would turn it on because it doesn't reveal too much sensitive information and/or it is useful for operational purposes such as traffic engineering, troubleshooting network problems, etc.). For example, suppose we wanted to monitor BGP update messages and infer the location and cause of routing changes. What extra information in the messages would help us do this? Is the extra overhead small enough to warrant that change? - Measurement in support of network operations: Lots of folks use measurement data in running their networks (e.g., traffic matrices to do traffic engineering, packet/flow data to detect anomalies and attacks, routing measurements to track the topology and detect anomalies, etc.). Would it make sense to give these monitoring/management systems real-time, direct control over the packet-handling behavior of the network elements -- elevating measurement to a first-class citizen in driving the functioning of the network? What would it take to make this happen? -- Jen -----Original Message----- From: imrg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:imrg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Allman Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 9:32 PM To: imrg@irtf.org Subject: [IMRG] imrg futures Hi folks! IMRG has been pretty quiet lately, with not much percolating off-list either. So, I have started to wonder whether this RG is needed or whether we should consider it done. From my viewpoint this RG was created as an umbrella under which various activities across network measurement could be pursued. And, to an extent that has happened (with workshops and review teams and such). However, I think we need to either come up with a use for this RG or just wrap it up. So, if you have something that you think would benefit from operating under the auspices of the IMRG, please let me know (or, the list). And, remember that this is an open RG, but the charter explicitly calls out the fact that certain activities can be closed. As long as there is some reporting to the community I would be very happy to have some closed sorts of group working on things because I think it can be conducive to rapid progress. (That doesn't mean I think open activities shouldn't be undertaken.) Please let me know what you think ... (Oh, I am on my way to IETF right now, so if you want to chat in person this week and will be around, shoot me an email and we'll work something out.) Thanks! allman (IMRG chair) -- Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 10 12:36:29 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09844 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9RdA-000475-L4 for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:39:28 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9RTr-0000y6-6c; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:29:51 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9RTq-0000y1-AJ for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:29:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09043 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:29:47 -0500 (EST) From: vze275m9@verizon.net Received: from vms048pub.verizon.net ([206.46.252.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9RWg-0003fK-LC for imrg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:32:46 -0500 Received: from [130.129.135.156] by vms048.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2 HotFix 0.04 (built Dec 24 2004)) with ESMTPA id <0ID5001PPCLPM5R0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> for imrg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:29:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:29:47 -0600 To: imrg@irtf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [IMRG] RE: IMRG futures X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, I took Mark up on his offer and chatted briefly with him yesterday. I offer the following as ideas, just to start the ball rolling as to directions that this RG could go. 1) Organize a central information point for all the measurement repositories that currently exist. Apparently this has been tried several times in the past. (and I learned from Mark that CAIDA is working on this, so maybe IMRG can work with the folks at USC). There all various repositories worldwide, and it might be a good thing to organize links to them all (Note this is NOT a proposal to have a single worldwide repository). Obviously, there would have to be commitment to maintain this over time. Otherwise, it will just fade out and become a disappointment. What extra value can the IMRG bring to this? (a) Set standards for data being included. I.e. Define what constitutes useful measurement data. (b) Set commonly accepted ways to process data (maybe more of a handbook of what to do and what not to do when processing measurement data) 2) Start a subgroup on measurement of Wireless LANs. There is a lot of research in the academic world on this, and it could be fruitful to create a place in the IMRG where this work could go on, and people could collaborate. Could include also physical layer and MAC layer measurements. Maybe eventually make a repository. 3) Become an extender of established measurement programs (like the ones at CAIDA, RIPE, etc) in the sense of looking at areas or problems that these groups would like to solve, but don't have the resources or time or the problems are too far in the future. This is sort of a "gap analysis" of places where the technology or science needs some effort. It requires some work to identify problems that it would be useful to solve. Again, this would require a lot of collaboration between this group and these existing groups. I hope that others have ideas that they are willing to post also.... Regards, Phil Chimento _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 10 18:18:26 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19631 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9Wy8-0005fL-CV for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:21:29 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9WqF-0000yy-Ox; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:13:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9WqC-0000vh-SF for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:13:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18681 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.jaalam.net ([209.139.228.35]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9Wt3-0005LN-Mn for imrg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:16:16 -0500 Received: from jsrvr8.jaalam.net ([172.16.128.105]) by relay.jaalam.net (SMSSMTP 4.1.0.19) with SMTP id M2005031015130305716 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:13:03 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:13:02 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: directing the discussion Thread-Index: AcUlksBSgCvb3wzORsecavtHH9DpHwAMrsPA From: "Loki Jorgenson" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [IMRG] directing the discussion X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark - my reflections would parallel Jennifer's - measurement has matured to a certain point and I feel that it is time for it to make itself relevant to other things - integrate with the larger world and/or be part of other systems that need measurement. In other words, can we get down to applied research? Jennifer listed some options to consider. A key question (in my mind) is: Now that we know better how to do it, what is Internet Measurement good for? Or more precisely, who needs that information and under what circumstances? My experience as an industry researcher has been that the answer to this question is non-trivial and not what you'd expect. For example, in general I would say that core network engineers "don't care" - however, applications people (who have little direct access to the network) care a great deal but in specific ways and under specific circumstances. Jennifer Rexford wrote: ---------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:38:00 -0500 From: "Jennifer Rexford" Subject: RE: [IMRG] imrg futures To: Cc: imrg@irtf.org Message-ID: <200503100238.j2A2cWn3003271@bluebox.CS.Princeton.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" Mark, Hi, thanks for getting the ball rolling. Here are a few thoughts to give the ball an additional kick. I'm not sure which of these (if any) make sense specifically in a context like IMRG, but these are some measurement-related things I've been thinking or wondering about... - Education/curriculum:=20 - Network support for measurement:=20 - Measurement in support of network operations:=20 -- Jen=20 Loki Jorgenson Chief Scientist Apparent Networks The Hudson House Suite 400 - 321 Water Street Vancouver, BC, Canada, V6B 1B8 e ljorgenson@ApparentNetworks.com t 604 433 2333 ext 105 f 604 433 2311 m 604 340-2480 w www.ApparentNetworks.com _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 10 23:32:33 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA14912 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:32:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9bsA-0003Wy-5W for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:35:38 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9bne-0008L0-FC; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:30:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9bnc-0008Kv-CQ for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:30:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA14769 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cs.dartmouth.edu ([129.170.212.100]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9bqY-0003UF-Gs for imrg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:33:58 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain (beaver.cs.dartmouth.edu [129.170.213.211]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j2B4UsLM018666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:30:55 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain (beaver [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2B4UsUA018252 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:30:54 -0500 Received: (from tristan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.12.11/Submit) id j2B4UsmU018251 for imrg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:30:54 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:30:54 -0500 From: Tristan Henderson To: imrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [IMRG] RE: IMRG futures Message-ID: <20050311043054.GA17980@beaver.cs.dartmouth.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 At 11:29 on 10 Mar 2005, vze275m9@verizon.net said: > 2) Start a subgroup on measurement of Wireless LANs. There is a lot of > research in the academic world on this, and it could be fruitful to > create a place in the IMRG where this work could go on, and people > could collaborate. Could include also physical layer and MAC layer > measurements. Maybe eventually make a repository. This is a good time for me to stop lurking on this list. We do quite a bit of wireless measurement at Dartmouth and are currently providing a repository of WLAN traces (see http://cmc.cs.dartmouth.edu/data/). We would like to extend this and I would be very interested in joining any discussion in the IMRG. We've run into lots of problems that I'm sure others have encountered (privacy, anonymisation, management) and would be happy to share experiences, learn from others, and help develop best practices. I'd also be interested in curriculum ideas. I would very much like to increase the level of measurement in our networking courses. Like Jennifer mentions, I'd like our students to have a grounding in conducting experiments and analysing data. Does anyone have any examples of successful projects that they have used? For us the most obvious project would involve wireless measurement, but I'm a bit wary of sending students out with wireless laptops to snoop on each other's e-mail messages. Cheers, Tristan _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 11 12:58:45 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21766 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9oST-0001FZ-IS for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:01:57 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9oOL-0005DQ-47; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:57:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9oOJ-0005C4-3b for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:57:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21610 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.0.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9oRM-0001Bn-7b for imrg@irtf.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:00:48 -0500 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 8) id 0055526148; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:57:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F190126141; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:57:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from Geir.ripe.net (cow.ripe.net [193.0.1.239]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j2BHvJeu028921; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:57:22 +0100 Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050311184250.02c553a0@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:57:12 +0100 To: mallman@icir.org, imrg@irtf.org From: Henk Uijterwaal Subject: Re: [IMRG] imrg futures In-Reply-To: <20050307023221.1B01F24FF76@lawyers.icir.org> References: <20050307023221.1B01F24FF76@lawyers.icir.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000028 / -5.9 X-RIPE-Signature: 2cdd25f1ded0559271e368d1270a88c5 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 At 03:32 07/03/2005, Mark Allman wrote: >> >[] >> >Untitled41.ems The problem that I see is not that we cannot come up with a set of topics that we want to discuss and pursue, but that the IMRG does not have a framework that forces us to actually do some research, then write it up and discuss it in a serious but not too formal setting. On the other hand, there is a whole series of formal and informal workshops and conferences (PAM200x, IMC, IEEE-E2EMON, RIPE TT-WG, NANOG's research session, ..., etc, etc) with CFP's and meetings. Most of us have other obligations as well. The net result of all this, is (or at least seems to be) that we all end up with great plans what to do in the IMRG framework, then find out that we have so many other deadlines to meet that all these plans end up somewhere on the bottom of the stack. The exception to this was the BEST workshop organized 2 years ago, where a number of people on a topic met and discussed bandwidth estimation for 2 days and actually made progress. We obviously should not try to organize yet another workshop on measurements. However, I do think that if we want to make progress in this RG, we should not only come up with a list of topic, but also with some plan that "forces" people to actually follow up on suggestions and present/discuss results, Henk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Look here junior, don't you be so happy. And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom Verlaine) _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 14 21:17:04 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20986 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DB1g2-0002YU-56 for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:20:58 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DB1Zo-0001AO-R4; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:14:32 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DB1Zn-0001AJ-U3 for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:14:32 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20800 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:14:30 -0500 (EST) From: vze275m9@verizon.net Received: from vms042pub.verizon.net ([206.46.252.42]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DB1dX-0002V7-QN for imrg@irtf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:18:24 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([151.200.40.95]) by vms042.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2 HotFix 0.04 (built Dec 24 2004)) with ESMTPA id <0IDD00J2VFK4FC60@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> for imrg@irtf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:14:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:14:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [IMRG] imrg futures In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20050311184250.02c553a0@localhost> To: Henk Uijterwaal Message-id: <7c98530428d1d59f9c4d34a2d23055ff@verizon.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20050307023221.1B01F24FF76@lawyers.icir.org> <6.2.0.14.2.20050311184250.02c553a0@localhost> X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: imrg@irtf.org, mallman@icir.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Henk: What sort of thing did you have in mind that would "force" research? One of the reasons that I suggested that the group tie itself to measurement problems that CAIDA, RIPE and others have (both short and long term) was to provide some motivation for us all to solve real problems and contribute generally to the science of measurement...I also liked Jennifer Rexford's suggestion of measurement in support of network operations... I guess my thought is to find something that needs doing and is of general use and expend effort on that... Regards, Phil Chimento On Mar 11, 2005, at 12:57, Henk Uijterwaal wrote: > At 03:32 07/03/2005, Mark Allman wrote: > >> > >> [] >> > >> Untitled41.ems > > The problem that I see is not that we cannot come up with a set of > topics > that we want to discuss and pursue, but that the IMRG does not have a > framework that forces us to actually do some research, then write it > up and discuss it in a serious but not too formal setting. On the > other > hand, there is a whole series of formal and informal workshops and > conferences (PAM200x, IMC, IEEE-E2EMON, RIPE TT-WG, NANOG's research > session, ..., etc, etc) with CFP's and meetings. Most of us have > other obligations as well. The net result of all this, is (or at least > seems to be) that we all end up with great plans what to do in the > IMRG framework, then find out that we have so many other deadlines to > meet that all these plans end up somewhere on the bottom of the stack. > > The exception to this was the BEST workshop organized 2 years ago, > where a number of people on a topic met and discussed bandwidth > estimation > for 2 days and actually made progress. > > We obviously should not try to organize yet another workshop on > measurements. However, I do think that if we want to make progress in > this RG, we should not only come up with a list of topic, but also with > some plan that "forces" people to actually follow up on suggestions > and present/discuss results, > > Henk > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > Henk Uijterwaal Email: > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > > Look here junior, don't you be so happy. > And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom > Verlaine) > > _______________________________________________ > IMRG mailing list > IMRG@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg > _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 15 03:45:54 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA17122 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DB7kN-0002M9-Bw for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:49:51 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DB7dT-0004zl-CJ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:42:43 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DB7dQ-0004yD-Ps for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:42:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA16903 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.0.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DB7hD-0002EJ-R2 for imrg@irtf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:46:36 -0500 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 8) id 0A1722714E; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:42:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D36B26FFA; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:42:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from Geir.ripe.net (cow.ripe.net [193.0.1.239]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j2F8gReu018520; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:42:28 +0100 Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050315093249.02cb8d38@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:42:25 +0100 To: vze275m9@verizon.net From: Henk Uijterwaal Subject: Re: [IMRG] imrg futures In-Reply-To: <7c98530428d1d59f9c4d34a2d23055ff@verizon.net> References: <20050307023221.1B01F24FF76@lawyers.icir.org> <6.2.0.14.2.20050311184250.02c553a0@localhost> <7c98530428d1d59f9c4d34a2d23055ff@verizon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000001 / -5.9 X-RIPE-Signature: c44255c488d95ab81fb9d55f8aa2f8a8 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d95a152022472c7d6cdf886a0424dc6 Cc: imrg@irtf.org, mallman@icir.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 At 03:14 15/03/2005, vze275m9@verizon.net wrote: >Hi Henk: >What sort of thing did you have in mind that would "force" research? >One of the reasons that I suggested that the group tie itself to >measurement problems that CAIDA, RIPE and others have (both short and >long term) was to provide some motivation for us all to solve real >problems and contribute generally to the science of measurement...I >also liked Jennifer Rexford's suggestion of measurement in support of >network operations... > >I guess my thought is to find something that needs doing and is of >general use and expend effort on that... I don't think that finding topics that need to be done and have some general use is the problem. But once we have found the topic, then we should also look at: * What do we exactly want to do (and what not). * Set some realistic goals and milestones for the near future (say months to a year). * Get commitment from people to spend time on this in this period. * Agree how to make progress. Looking at myself, I don't think that the problem is to list things that I'd be interested to look at if I had more time, the problem is to find to time to look at them. Henk >Regards, >Phil Chimento > >On Mar 11, 2005, at 12:57, Henk Uijterwaal wrote: > >>At 03:32 07/03/2005, Mark Allman wrote: >> >>>> >>>[] >>>> >>>Untitled41.ems >> >>The problem that I see is not that we cannot come up with a set of >>topics >>that we want to discuss and pursue, but that the IMRG does not have a >>framework that forces us to actually do some research, then write it >>up and discuss it in a serious but not too formal setting. On the >>other >>hand, there is a whole series of formal and informal workshops and >>conferences (PAM200x, IMC, IEEE-E2EMON, RIPE TT-WG, NANOG's research >>session, ..., etc, etc) with CFP's and meetings. Most of us have >>other obligations as well. The net result of all this, is (or at least >>seems to be) that we all end up with great plans what to do in the >>IMRG framework, then find out that we have so many other deadlines to >>meet that all these plans end up somewhere on the bottom of the stack. >> >>The exception to this was the BEST workshop organized 2 years ago, >>where a number of people on a topic met and discussed bandwidth >>estimation >>for 2 days and actually made progress. >> >>We obviously should not try to organize yet another workshop on >>measurements. However, I do think that if we want to make progress in >>this RG, we should not only come up with a list of topic, but also with >>some plan that "forces" people to actually follow up on suggestions >>and present/discuss results, >> >>Henk >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>------- >>Henk Uijterwaal Email: >>henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net >>RIPE Network Coordination Centre >>http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk >>P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 >>1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 >>The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>------- >> >>Look here junior, don't you be so happy. >>And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom >>Verlaine) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>IMRG mailing list >>IMRG@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Look here junior, don't you be so happy. And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom Verlaine) _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 15 06:50:55 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA04546 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBAdT-0001rh-1o for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:54:55 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBAXB-0008F6-21; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:48:25 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBAX9-0008Ey-3w for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:48:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA04346 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:48:20 -0500 (EST) From: vze275m9@verizon.net Received: from vms040pub.verizon.net ([206.46.252.40]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBAax-0001kq-VG for imrg@irtf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:52:20 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([151.200.40.95]) by vms040.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2 HotFix 0.04 (built Dec 24 2004)) with ESMTPA id <0IDE00GYA64KQX81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> for imrg@irtf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:48:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:48:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [IMRG] imrg futures In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20050315093249.02cb8d38@localhost> To: Henk Uijterwaal Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20050307023221.1B01F24FF76@lawyers.icir.org> <6.2.0.14.2.20050311184250.02c553a0@localhost> <7c98530428d1d59f9c4d34a2d23055ff@verizon.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050315093249.02cb8d38@localhost> X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8f374d0786b25a451ef87d82c076f593 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: mallman@icir.org, imrg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 200d029292fbb60d25b263122ced50fc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, you're right; the commitment has to be there in order to sustain the work. The choice of topic, though, has some effect on the commitment; something that is of value to, say, RIPE, is probably going to have a higher priority in your work queue; I know that would be true of me and a measurement topic that was of importance to my organization. I like the list of steps in your e-mail and think that it is exactly right.... I hope others weigh in with their opinions. Regards, Phil Chimento On Mar 15, 2005, at 03:42, Henk Uijterwaal wrote: > At 03:14 15/03/2005, vze275m9@verizon.net wrote: >> Hi Henk: >> What sort of thing did you have in mind that would "force" research? >> One of the reasons that I suggested that the group tie itself to >> measurement problems that CAIDA, RIPE and others have (both short and >> long term) was to provide some motivation for us all to solve real >> problems and contribute generally to the science of measurement...I >> also liked Jennifer Rexford's suggestion of measurement in support of >> network operations... >> >> I guess my thought is to find something that needs doing and is of >> general use and expend effort on that... > > I don't think that finding topics that need to be done and have some > general use is the problem. But once we have found the topic, then > we should also look at: > > * What do we exactly want to do (and what not). > * Set some realistic goals and milestones for the near future (say > months to a year). > * Get commitment from people to spend time on this in this period. > * Agree how to make progress. > > Looking at myself, I don't think that the problem is to list things > that > I'd be interested to look at if I had more time, the problem is to > find to time to look at them. > > Henk > > > > > > > > > >> Regards, >> Phil Chimento >> >> On Mar 11, 2005, at 12:57, Henk Uijterwaal wrote: >> >>> At 03:32 07/03/2005, Mark Allman wrote: >>> >>>> > >>>> [] >>>> > >>>> Untitled41.ems >>> >>> The problem that I see is not that we cannot come up with a set of >>> topics >>> that we want to discuss and pursue, but that the IMRG does not have a >>> framework that forces us to actually do some research, then write it >>> up and discuss it in a serious but not too formal setting. On the >>> other >>> hand, there is a whole series of formal and informal workshops and >>> conferences (PAM200x, IMC, IEEE-E2EMON, RIPE TT-WG, NANOG's research >>> session, ..., etc, etc) with CFP's and meetings. Most of us have >>> other obligations as well. The net result of all this, is (or at >>> least >>> seems to be) that we all end up with great plans what to do in the >>> IMRG framework, then find out that we have so many other deadlines to >>> meet that all these plans end up somewhere on the bottom of the >>> stack. >>> >>> The exception to this was the BEST workshop organized 2 years ago, >>> where a number of people on a topic met and discussed bandwidth >>> estimation >>> for 2 days and actually made progress. >>> >>> We obviously should not try to organize yet another workshop on >>> measurements. However, I do think that if we want to make progress >>> in >>> this RG, we should not only come up with a list of topic, but also >>> with >>> some plan that "forces" people to actually follow up on suggestions >>> and present/discuss results, >>> >>> Henk >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- ------- >>> Henk Uijterwaal Email: >>> henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net >>> RIPE Network Coordination Centre >>> http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk >>> P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 >>> 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 >>> The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- ------- >>> >>> Look here junior, don't you be so happy. >>> And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom >>> Verlaine) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> IMRG mailing list >>> IMRG@ietf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > Henk Uijterwaal Email: > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > > Look here junior, don't you be so happy. > And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom > Verlaine) > > _______________________________________________ > IMRG mailing list > IMRG@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg > _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 15 08:57:44 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16983 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBCcB-0007m6-QA for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:01:44 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBCVR-0006dC-3j; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:54:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBCVM-0006c4-An for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:54:42 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16754 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from wyvern.icir.org ([192.150.187.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBCZB-0007c9-7j for imrg@irtf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:58:38 -0500 Received: from guns.icir.org (adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [68.76.113.50]) by wyvern.icir.org (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j2FDsL50058273; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mallman@guns.icir.org) Received: from guns.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A4B77A013; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:54:20 -0500 (EST) To: Henk Uijterwaal From: Mark Allman Subject: Re: [IMRG] imrg futures In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050315093249.02cb8d38@localhost> Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: Big Bang Baby MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:54:20 -0500 Message-Id: <20050315135420.B1A4B77A013@guns.icir.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: vze275m9@verizon.net, imrg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mallman@icir.org List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2108036785==" Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc --===============2108036785== Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_bOundary"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=_bOundary Content-Type: text/plain Thanks for the thoughts everyone! I am watching them and I eagerly look forward to additional comments folks might have. > I don't think that finding topics that need to be done and have some > general use is the problem. Let me echo Henk's comments here --- and, maybe add a couple of my own bits. One of the things I have found as IMRG chair is that folks have tons of ideas for what sorts of areas the RG could fruitfully explore. Nearly all the topics people have mentioned to me are good and useful. Some are more suited for the RG than others. We need good ideas for sure. However, we also need some energy to make those good ideas go. In some sense, we really need two things to make forward progress here: (1) We need topics that would benefit from community wide *work*. Some topics just do not warrant the energy of a broad community, but rather can be accomplished by a small group of interested folks. Other topics very much benefit from broader input. For instance, Jen's measurement curriculum ideas seem to fall in the latter category. (Note: There are very important problems to be worked in both classes. The distinction is relative to what IMRG thinks on, not what is thought on in a more general context.) (2) We need energy for the topics in question. As Henk noted, BEST worked. However, it worked because there was a core group of folks who anted up cycles and energy to make it work. Simply identifying topics is not enough. This naturally begs the question of what the RG can do to help in this area. And, that is what I am struggling with. If there is some sort of structural construct we can work out that would foster activity then let's do it. E.g., if there would be energy to commit within a closed sub-group in some given area then let's see if we can make that fly. Or, if there are a few folk who want to organize a workshop / meeting to help make forward progress on something then let's work on that. Finally, let me note that Henk is right in mentioning that there are many venues and etc. in the measurement community. What is not clear to me is whether IMRG can fill a need in the community or not. Thanks! allman --=_bOundary Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCNukMWyrrWs4yIs4RAqehAJ9nTeEyf4CECZ1jRMfwei92rht64ACeID+O 98XoOWZQwJDjF7qFMwniFjY= =DGA+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_bOundary-- --===============2108036785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg --===============2108036785==-- From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 16 17:52:48 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08523 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:52:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBhRq-0000sz-UA for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:57:07 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBhNW-0001xO-Bt; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:52:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBhNU-0001x9-1q for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:52:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08489 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluebox.cs.princeton.edu ([128.112.136.38]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBhRb-0000sO-Hj for imrg@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:56:51 -0500 Received: from MetaJen (pcp09362875pcs.jersyc01.nj.comcast.net [69.141.66.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by bluebox.CS.Princeton.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2GMqLTS005789 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:52:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503162252.j2GMqLTS005789@bluebox.CS.Princeton.EDU> From: "Jennifer Rexford" To: "'Loki Jorgenson'" Subject: RE: [IMRG] directing the discussion Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:52:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcUlksBSgCvb3wzORsecavtHH9DpHwAMrsPAASz1VxA= X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: imrg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A key question (in my mind) is: Now that we know better how to do it, > what is Internet Measurement good for? Or more precisely, who needs > that information and under what circumstances? Good question. I think we're now at the point where publishing analysis of Internet measurement data is no longer a novelty. So, the bar should naturally get higher for what consistitutes "research" in this area -- work that lends new/deep insight into the behavior of a system or protocol, or work that adds new methods and techniques to our bag of tricks. (Also, I think students are in a position now where doing an entire PhD thesis on collecting and characterizing measurement data might not be "enough". They might reasonably need to use the insights from the data analysis to redesign a system, create new algorithms, etc. That is, measurement and data analysis might be a phase in the work, rather than the entire body of the work.) Also, I would argue that the body of existing work has grown so large (and so quickly) that it is getting hard for new people to jump in to the area, and existing folks to keep up with what's going on. (Henk alluded to this problem as well, in commenting on how many different venues have a significant emphasis on Internet measurement. Actually, even putting together a simple Web site that linked to the main venues would be a useful contribution at this point!) In terms of the important question of "who needs the information," I think we have at least two camps -- those using data to characterize the beast (e.g., research folks trying to do experimental science on the Internet, including work on understanding the performance and limitations of our existing protocols and/or evaluate new designs) and those using data to run the network (e.g., operators trying to detect anomalies, do traffic engineering, thwart attacks, etc.), though increasingly the lines are blurry as more research folks jump in to creating and evaluating techniques for using measurement data to help operators. -- Jen -----Original Message----- From: imrg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:imrg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loki Jorgenson Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:13 PM To: imrg@ietf.org Subject: [IMRG] directing the discussion Mark - my reflections would parallel Jennifer's - measurement has matured to a certain point and I feel that it is time for it to make itself relevant to other things - integrate with the larger world and/or be part of other systems that need measurement. In other words, can we get down to applied research? Jennifer listed some options to consider. A key question (in my mind) is: Now that we know better how to do it, what is Internet Measurement good for? Or more precisely, who needs that information and under what circumstances? My experience as an industry researcher has been that the answer to this question is non-trivial and not what you'd expect. For example, in general I would say that core network engineers "don't care" - however, applications people (who have little direct access to the network) care a great deal but in specific ways and under specific circumstances. Jennifer Rexford wrote: ---------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:38:00 -0500 From: "Jennifer Rexford" Subject: RE: [IMRG] imrg futures To: Cc: imrg@irtf.org Message-ID: <200503100238.j2A2cWn3003271@bluebox.CS.Princeton.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark, Hi, thanks for getting the ball rolling. Here are a few thoughts to give the ball an additional kick. I'm not sure which of these (if any) make sense specifically in a context like IMRG, but these are some measurement-related things I've been thinking or wondering about... - Education/curriculum: - Network support for measurement: - Measurement in support of network operations: -- Jen Loki Jorgenson Chief Scientist Apparent Networks The Hudson House Suite 400 - 321 Water Street Vancouver, BC, Canada, V6B 1B8 e ljorgenson@ApparentNetworks.com t 604 433 2333 ext 105 f 604 433 2311 m 604 340-2480 w www.ApparentNetworks.com _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 16 18:01:21 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09498 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBha7-0001RJ-Pq for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:05:39 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBhSH-0004SR-N9; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:57:33 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBhSG-0004SK-Hx for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:57:32 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08976 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.jaalam.net ([209.139.228.35]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBhWM-0001EJ-W2 for imrg@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:01:48 -0500 Received: from jsrvr8.jaalam.net ([172.16.128.105]) by relay.jaalam.net (SMSSMTP 4.1.0.19) with SMTP id M2005031614571914155 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:57:20 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IMRG] directing the discussion Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:57:19 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [IMRG] directing the discussion Thread-Index: AcUlksBSgCvb3wzORsecavtHH9DpHwAMrsPAASz1VxAAAG4bIA== From: "Loki Jorgenson" To: "Jennifer Rexford" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: imrg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All well received. And I would add to your list of "who needs to the information" - applications people or people involved in applications research. These people are neither experimenting on the Internet or running the Internet. But they are involved in work that has a direct dependency on the Internet and networks in general. And they need to characterize the beast for their own purposes. This is where I find the "rubber hits the road" and defines relevant metrics. And I imagine it is where some very interesting cross-pollination can take place (networking and.... something). -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Rexford [mailto:jrex@CS.Princeton.EDU]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 2:52 PM To: Loki Jorgenson Cc: imrg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [IMRG] directing the discussion -----8< --- snip ----------- In terms of the important question of "who needs the information," I think we have at least two camps -- those using data to characterize the beast (e.g., research folks trying to do experimental science on the Internet, including work on understanding the performance and limitations of our existing protocols and/or evaluate new designs) and those using data to run the network (e.g., operators trying to detect anomalies, do traffic engineering, thwart attacks, etc.), though increasingly the lines are blurry as more research folks jump in to creating and evaluating techniques for using measurement data to help operators. -- Jen _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 17 07:23:07 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA17215 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBu69-0004I8-TE for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:27:34 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBtyZ-0002QX-0a; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:19:43 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBtyV-0002Pb-Ln for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:19:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA16728 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:19:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ranger.systems.pipex.net ([62.241.162.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBu2j-00044u-OO for imrg@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:24:02 -0500 Received: from pc6 (1Cust216.tnt7.lnd4.gbr.da.uu.net [62.188.136.216]) by ranger.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C4021E000365; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:19:24 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <000901c52ae2$ca84bf40$0601a8c0@pc6> From: "Tom Petch" To: "Loki Jorgenson" References: Subject: Re: [IMRG] directing the discussion Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:16:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: imrg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tom Petch List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see IETF WG as customers, who could take better decisions if better data were available. In no particular order routing; there seems very little analysis of BGP and how it is used, what gets advertised how (thinking particularly of what does not get advertised and how, eg by aggregation or by communities and the AS_PATH of the advertisement v the path that data takes) - probably the one that interests me most but is also the most abstruse (I am aware of potaroo and the sterling work of Philip Smith) traffic by application; one frequent discussion point with spam/UBE is the notion that operators do not care because this is such a small part of the load, BitTorrent and such like being the majority use of the Internet; true or false? TCP(M); much discussion about the resetting of sessions, what that costs (slow start etc), would it be better to behave differently in the event of unexpected happenings (RST, ICMP); how frequent are these events? segment sizes; crops up in IPv6 and network management; when 576 is too small, how many networks lose out if the effective minimum PDU needs to be something bigger? congestion; until the advent of wireless, 'everyone knew' that packet loss was due to congestion and not to CRC checks; I have looked periodically for papers to support this and do not see them; and is wireless quite different, if so by how much? how bit is the Internet in terms of traffic, how fast is it growing? there was a question on this on the main IETF list some months ago, I never saw a reply. not rocket science, mostly Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loki Jorgenson" To: "Jennifer Rexford" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: RE: [IMRG] directing the discussion All well received. And I would add to your list of "who needs to the information" - applications people or people involved in applications research. These people are neither experimenting on the Internet or running the Internet. But they are involved in work that has a direct dependency on the Internet and networks in general. And they need to characterize the beast for their own purposes. This is where I find the "rubber hits the road" and defines relevant metrics. And I imagine it is where some very interesting cross-pollination can take place (networking and.... something). -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Rexford [mailto:jrex@CS.Princeton.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 2:52 PM To: Loki Jorgenson Cc: imrg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [IMRG] directing the discussion -----8< --- snip ----------- In terms of the important question of "who needs the information," I think we have at least two camps -- those using data to characterize the beast (e.g., research folks trying to do experimental science on the Internet, including work on understanding the performance and limitations of our existing protocols and/or evaluate new designs) and those using data to run the network (e.g., operators trying to detect anomalies, do traffic engineering, thwart attacks, etc.), though increasingly the lines are blurry as more research folks jump in to creating and evaluating techniques for using measurement data to help operators. -- Jen _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 17 08:01:21 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA22076 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBuh7-00066r-Sd for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:05:46 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBuWQ-0000UD-Pt; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:54:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBuWP-0000U3-4R for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:54:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21377 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from bluebox.cs.princeton.edu ([128.112.136.38]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBuad-0005g4-FR for imrg@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:59:03 -0500 Received: from MetaJen (pcp09362875pcs.jersyc01.nj.comcast.net [69.141.66.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by bluebox.CS.Princeton.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2HCsXgN003659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:54:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503171254.j2HCsXgN003659@bluebox.CS.Princeton.EDU> From: "Jennifer Rexford" To: "'Tom Petch'" , "'Loki Jorgenson'" Subject: RE: [IMRG] directing the discussion Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:54:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <000901c52ae2$ca84bf40$0601a8c0@pc6> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcUq66CZgds8hHJsRRKUo8ux9PwLkAAA77ww X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: imrg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3d7f2f6612d734db849efa86ea692407 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Loki, > the AS_PATH of the advertisement v the > path that data takes) - probably the one that interests me most but is also the > most abstruse (I am aware of potaroo and the sterling work of Philip Smith) Hi. On the forwarding vs. signaling path, you might be interested in the papers http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jrex/papers/sigcomm03.pdf http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jrex/papers/infocom04.pdf See also the slides at http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jrex/talks/astrace04.ppt These papers focus mostly on the difficulty of accurately determining the AS path the packets actually take, but they also discuss cases where the forwarding and signaling paths legitimately differ (e.g., due to route aggregation, packet deflections, and bogus ASes in the BGP AS path). Actually, our intent when we started this work was to focus soley on analyzing the cases where they differ, but we found so many mismatches between the traceroute and BGP data when we applied a prefix-to-AS mapping (gleaned from the origin ASes in BGP routing tables) to the IP addresses in the traceroute paths that we had to step back and consider the problem of how to construct a more accurate prefix-to-AS mapping to use. The biggest problem was caused by ASes that do not advertise the address blocks they use to number their equipment, causing the addresses to be wrongly mapped to whatever upstream provider is advertising the supernet containing these addresses (e.g., see slide #12 in the powerpoint talk above). -- Jen -----Original Message----- From: imrg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:imrg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Petch Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 6:16 AM To: Loki Jorgenson Cc: imrg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [IMRG] directing the discussion I see IETF WG as customers, who could take better decisions if better data were available. In no particular order routing; there seems very little analysis of BGP and how it is used, what gets advertised how (thinking particularly of what does not get advertised and how, eg by aggregation or by communities and the AS_PATH of the advertisement v the path that data takes) - probably the one that interests me most but is also the most abstruse (I am aware of potaroo and the sterling work of Philip Smith) traffic by application; one frequent discussion point with spam/UBE is the notion that operators do not care because this is such a small part of the load, BitTorrent and such like being the majority use of the Internet; true or false? TCP(M); much discussion about the resetting of sessions, what that costs (slow start etc), would it be better to behave differently in the event of unexpected happenings (RST, ICMP); how frequent are these events? segment sizes; crops up in IPv6 and network management; when 576 is too small, how many networks lose out if the effective minimum PDU needs to be something bigger? congestion; until the advent of wireless, 'everyone knew' that packet loss was due to congestion and not to CRC checks; I have looked periodically for papers to support this and do not see them; and is wireless quite different, if so by how much? how bit is the Internet in terms of traffic, how fast is it growing? there was a question on this on the main IETF list some months ago, I never saw a reply. not rocket science, mostly Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loki Jorgenson" To: "Jennifer Rexford" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: RE: [IMRG] directing the discussion All well received. And I would add to your list of "who needs to the information" - applications people or people involved in applications research. These people are neither experimenting on the Internet or running the Internet. But they are involved in work that has a direct dependency on the Internet and networks in general. And they need to characterize the beast for their own purposes. This is where I find the "rubber hits the road" and defines relevant metrics. And I imagine it is where some very interesting cross-pollination can take place (networking and.... something). -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Rexford [mailto:jrex@CS.Princeton.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 2:52 PM To: Loki Jorgenson Cc: imrg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [IMRG] directing the discussion -----8< --- snip ----------- In terms of the important question of "who needs the information," I think we have at least two camps -- those using data to characterize the beast (e.g., research folks trying to do experimental science on the Internet, including work on understanding the performance and limitations of our existing protocols and/or evaluate new designs) and those using data to run the network (e.g., operators trying to detect anomalies, do traffic engineering, thwart attacks, etc.), though increasingly the lines are blurry as more research folks jump in to creating and evaluating techniques for using measurement data to help operators. -- Jen _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 17 09:20:54 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA01342 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBvw8-0001R7-EQ for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:25:20 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBvql-0000Sv-5Z; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:19:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBvqj-0000Si-5l for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:19:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA01115 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBvux-0001Ia-CA for imrg@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:24:08 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330381CD752; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29302-08; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120B61CD6ED; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:19:38 -0500 (EST) To: Tom Petch Subject: Re: [IMRG] directing the discussion References: <000901c52ae2$ca84bf40$0601a8c0@pc6> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 17 Mar 2005 09:19:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: <000901c52ae2$ca84bf40$0601a8c0@pc6> Message-ID: <863buue4n9.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: imrg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 "Tom Petch" writes: > traffic by application; one frequent discussion point with spam/UBE > is the notion that operators do not care because this is such a > small part of the load, BitTorrent and such like being the majority > use of the Internet; true or false? True. See http://netflow.internet2.edu/weekly/ (the mail category includes all email-related protocols that can be easily identified). Spam is a huge problem, but the resource it consumes most is human time and attention, but network capacity. In other words, only very indirectly a problem for a backbone operator. What I find puzzling about this question is that the purported recipients of the answer are operators. Doesn't every operator worth half a bronze bit know how much email consumes in capacity on his network? -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Just my 0.086g of Ag. _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 18 03:30:50 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA07900 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DCCx4-0004vM-8o for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:35:26 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DCCrx-00044m-F3; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:30:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DCCrp-00043e-Nw for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:30:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA07864 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from tyholt.uninett.no ([158.38.60.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DCCwC-0004uZ-Cn for imrg@ietf.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:34:34 -0500 Received: from tikneppen.uninett.no (tikneppen.uninett.no [158.38.62.70]) by tyholt.uninett.no (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2I8ToLL030087; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:29:50 +0100 Message-Id: <200503180829.j2I8ToLL030087@tyholt.uninett.no> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.1-RC3 To: Tom Petch From: Olav.Kvittem@uninett.no Subject: Re: [IMRG] directing the discussion In-Reply-To: Message from "Tom Petch" of "Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:16:17 +0100." <000901c52ae2$ca84bf40$0601a8c0@pc6> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:30:03 +0100 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: imrg@ietf.org, Loki Jorgenson X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 nwnetworks@dial.pipex.com said: > congestion; until the advent of wireless, 'everyone knew' that packet loss > was due to congestion and not to CRC checks; I have looked periodically for > papers to support this and do not see them; and is wireless quite different, > if so by how much? Not exactly research, but here are some observations : a characteristic of WLANs seem to be not packet loss but variable delay due to retransmission. Layer 2 is restransmitting unicast. Multicast is not retransmitted and we do see big loss rates. In our MAN-WAN we have statistics showing a consistent high loss/retransmission rates in the order of 10s of percents and accordingly highly variable roundtrips times. regards Olav _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg From imrg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 22 14:02:59 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18574 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DDoju-00081Y-4y for imrg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:08:30 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DDodE-0003uH-2O; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:01:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DDodB-0003u8-UP for imrg@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:01:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18507 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from wyvern.icir.org ([192.150.187.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DDoiS-00080B-QO for imrg@irtf.org; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:07:02 -0500 Received: from guns.icir.org (adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [68.76.113.50]) by wyvern.icir.org (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j2MJ1RRi077689 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:01:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mallman@guns.icir.org) Received: from guns.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812E577A6E7 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:01:26 -0500 (EST) To: imrg@irtf.org From: Mark Allman Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: Won't Get Fooled Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:01:26 -0500 Message-Id: <20050322190126.812E577A6E7@guns.icir.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d7a7e767f20255fce80fa0b77fb2433 Subject: [IMRG] falk@ISI.EDU: [rgchairs] New Mailing List: IRTF-Announce X-BeenThere: imrg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mallman@icir.org List-Id: Internet Measurement Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0628268740==" Sender: imrg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: imrg-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 932cba6e0228cc603da43d861a7e09d8 --===============0628268740== Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_bOundary"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --==_bOundary Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_bOundary" --=_bOundary Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From=20the new IRTF chair, Aaron Falk... FYI. --=_bOundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=5410 Content-Description: forwarded message Return-Path: rgchairs-bounces@lists.ietf.org Delivery-Date: Tue Mar 22 13:58:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mallman@guns.icir.org Delivered-To: mallman@guns.icir.org Received: from wyvern.icir.org (wyvern.icir.org [192.150.187.14]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDE977A6E7 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from alias.acm.org (alias.acm.org [199.222.69.90]) by wyvern.icir.org (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j2MIw9sX077636 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:58:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rgchairs-bounces@lists.ietf.org) Received: from psmtp.com ([64.18.2.184]) by alias.acm.org (ACM Email Forwarding Service) with SMTP id AAW38376 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:58:09 -0500 Received: from source ([132.151.6.71]) by exprod7mx44.postini.com ([64.18.6.10]) with SMTP; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:58:08 CST Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DDoZS-0003Jc-7o; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:57:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DDoZQ-0003JX-RW for rgchairs@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:57:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18194 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:57:39 -0500 (EST) From: falk@ISI.EDU Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DDoej-0007pc-Nm for rgchairs@irtf.org; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:03:11 -0500 Received: from nak.isi.edu (nak.isi.edu [128.9.168.79]) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j2MIvWs13560 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by nak.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 3494) id 0297F6B34CA; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:57:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:57:26 -0800 To: rgchairs@irtf.org Message-ID: <20050322185725.GL4592@isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-ISI-4-38-10-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: falk@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: Subject: [rgchairs] New Mailing List: IRTF-Announce X-BeenThere: rgchairs@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF research group chairs list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: rgchairs-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: rgchairs-bounces@lists.ietf.org X-ClamAV: OK X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 3ce551a68cc439b96f791a144a9b398f X-mallman-sequence: iman A new mailing list has been created to inform the Internet community of activities relating to the Internet Research Task Force. This broadcast list will receive notices of IRTF Research Group creation and termination, document publication, invitations for feedback and participation, and other IRTF activities. Subscription to this list is list is open to anyone. Posting to this list is at the discretion of the IRTF Chair. Subscription URL: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irtf-announce Archive URL: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/irtf-announce/current/index.html Please forward this notice to Internet research communities who might find it of interest. (RGCHAIRS, please forward this to your RGs.) --Aaron IRTF Chair _______________________________________________ Rgchairs mailing list Rgchairs@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rgchairs --=_bOundary-- --==_bOundary Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCQGuGWyrrWs4yIs4RAtFnAJ4hU1YR/jJ/X12GOxtpvbhFVrARTQCdEMED fDEW7ndKGDDjz4oTC3uJZ10= =yIx7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_bOundary-- --===============0628268740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg --===============0628268740==--