From hkirksey@motive.com Wed Jul 8 16:15:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35F028C164 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:15:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.164 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.164 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.436, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lRL4wRKcRxke for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m1.motive.com (m1.motive.com [64.186.184.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BAF3A6B98 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m1.motive.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E27F387F for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:15:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bellagio.motive.com (unknown [135.115.129.116]) by m1.motive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB07A3872 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:15:01 -0500 (CDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA0021.DD97545A" Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:14:38 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Meeting time in Stockholm? Thread-Index: AcoAId2kibqUNKkGTNGGVKQiHsbdNg== From: "Heather Kirksey" To: X-PMX-Version: 5.4.6.353000 Subject: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:15:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA0021.DD97545A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When the BoF proposal was declined, there was some talk of a bar BoF or meeting time being allocated in Stockholm to discuss some of the issues and to better prepare for a BoF in Hiroshima. There's been a fair amount of exploder discussion on various topics since then, but I'm not sure I ever saw any concrete decision to make use of any meeting time. Is there interest in doing so? Is there an update that I missed (entirely possible)? =20 =20 Thanks, Heather =20 Heather Kirksey Director, Product & Technology Strategy Motive Product Division Alcatel-Lucent hkirksey@motive.com =20 +1.512.531.1126 (office) +1.512.917.7938 (mobile) =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA0021.DD97545A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When the BoF proposal was declined, there was some = talk of a bar BoF or meeting time being allocated in Stockholm to discuss some of = the issues and to better prepare for a BoF in Hiroshima. There’s been = a fair amount of exploder discussion on various topics since then, but I’m not = sure I ever saw any concrete decision to make use of any meeting time.  Is = there interest in doing so? Is there an update that I missed (entirely = possible)? 

 

Thanks,

Heather

 

Heather = Kirksey

Director, Product = & Technology Strategy

Motive Product = Division

Alcatel-Lucent

hkirksey@motive.com

=

+1.512.531.1126 = (office)

+1.512.917.7938 = (mobile)

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CA0021.DD97545A-- From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Mon Jul 13 14:30:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5836928C511 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:30:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vlDs+tuwQIkf for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5032628C51C for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n6DLURwN013131 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:30:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:29:32 -0700 To: "Heather Kirksey" , From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:30:01 -0000 It would indeed be good to have a bar BoF so that we can get the charter and deliverables a bit more solid. Are people interested in picking an evening right after the IETF and we can go to a local bar with food (since none of us will have had dinner)? --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From iljitsch@muada.com Mon Jul 13 14:35:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344D128C5F2 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.309, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tFPKVnIowkWa for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20A328C64E for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.4] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6DLZ3g3033831 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:35:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: <05F458A6-F3AA-47ED-9C36-AB43A7326939@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:35:05 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:35:22 -0000 On 13 jul 2009, at 23:29, Paul Hoffman wrote: > It would indeed be good to have a bar BoF so that we can get the > charter and deliverables a bit more solid. Are people interested in > picking an evening right after the IETF and we can go to a local bar > with food (since none of us will have had dinner)? To help scheduling, I've set up a doodle. Fill in when you're available after the last session/plenary (which is _during_ the social on tuesday): http://www.doodle.com/32b5xhqp6e94vvnt From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Tue Jul 14 05:57:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C46F3A6ACB for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.831 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.831 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.365, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mOfGDyIh6jkB for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1C93A67C1 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.45498662; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:56:45 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:56:45 -0400 Received: from 10.36.138.31 ([10.36.138.31]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:56:26 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.19.0.090515 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:40:55 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Heather Kirksey , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? Thread-Index: AcoAId2kibqUNKkGTNGGVKQiHsbdNgEVhTjj In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3330406586_2502336" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2009 12:56:45.0599 (UTC) FILETIME=[8AE4CAF0:01CA0482] Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:57:53 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3330406586_2502336 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We=B9re tentatively planning a bar BoF for Monday night, more details to follow as we work on a venue and so on. Jason On 7/8/09 7:14 PM, "Heather Kirksey" wrote: > When the BoF proposal was declined, there was some talk of a bar BoF or > meeting time being allocated in Stockholm to discuss some of the issues a= nd to > better prepare for a BoF in Hiroshima. There=B9s been a fair amount of expl= oder > discussion on various topics since then, but I=B9m not sure I ever saw any > concrete decision to make use of any meeting time. Is there interest in = doing > so? Is there an update that I missed (entirely possible)? > =20 > Thanks, > Heather > =20 --B_3330406586_2502336 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? We’re tentatively planning a bar BoF for Monday night, more details = to follow as we work on a venue and so on.

Jason


On 7/8/09 7:14 PM, "Heather Kirksey" <hkirksey@motive.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>When the BoF proposal was declined, there was so= me talk of a bar BoF or meeting time being allocated in Stockholm to discuss= some of the issues and to better prepare for a BoF in Hiroshima. There̵= 7;s been a fair amount of exploder discussion on various topics since then, = but I’m not sure I ever saw any concrete decision to make use of any m= eeting time.  Is there interest in doing so? Is there an update that I = missed (entirely possible)?
 
Thanks,
Heather
 
--B_3330406586_2502336-- From lastewart@swin.edu.au Tue Jul 14 08:45:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3B828C2F4 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rC2Qy2MtbX1k for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lauren.room52.net (lauren.room52.net [210.50.193.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B8C43A6893 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lstewart-laptop.caia.swin.edu.au (c149.al.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.110.149]) (authenticated bits=0) by lauren.room52.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6EFXYqV075834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jul 2009 01:33:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lastewart@swin.edu.au) Message-ID: <4A5CA542.701@swin.edu.au> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:33:22 +0100 From: Lawrence Stewart User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090626) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Livingood, Jason" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:45:08 -0000 Livingood, Jason wrote: > We’re tentatively planning a bar BoF for Monday night, more details to > follow as we work on a venue and so on. Who's we, and is there any reason why these plans can't be discussed/fleshed out on the list? (Please forgive me if it's buried in one of the threads I haven't got to reading all the way through yet). Cheers, Lawrence From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Tue Jul 14 08:46:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8066A28C2D9 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:46:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.267, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VrQfn0lD9Ef6 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766213A6945 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n6EFl3Zr093213 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:47:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4A5CA542.701@swin.edu.au> References: <4A5CA542.701@swin.edu.au> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:47:02 -0700 To: Lawrence Stewart , "Livingood, Jason" From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:46:48 -0000 At 4:33 PM +0100 7/14/09, Lawrence Stewart wrote: >Livingood, Jason wrote: >>We're tentatively planning a bar BoF for Monday night, more details to follow as we work on a venue and so on. > >Who's we, and is there any reason why these plans can't be discussed/fleshed out on the list? (Please forgive me if it's buried in one of the threads I haven't got to reading all the way through yet). That's what this thread is about. See the past few messages. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From lastewart@swin.edu.au Tue Jul 14 09:05:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927E228C33B for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pbx4qU91flmZ for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lauren.room52.net (lauren.room52.net [210.50.193.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8734328C324 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lstewart-laptop.caia.swin.edu.au (c149.al.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.110.149]) (authenticated bits=0) by lauren.room52.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6EG3NNx076390 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jul 2009 02:03:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lastewart@swin.edu.au) Message-ID: <4A5CAC40.8060307@swin.edu.au> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:03:12 +0100 From: Lawrence Stewart User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090626) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman References: <4A5CA542.701@swin.edu.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:05:17 -0000 Paul Hoffman wrote: > At 4:33 PM +0100 7/14/09, Lawrence Stewart wrote: >> Livingood, Jason wrote: >>> We're tentatively planning a bar BoF for Monday night, more details to follow as we work on a venue and so on. >> Who's we, and is there any reason why these plans can't be discussed/fleshed out on the list? (Please forgive me if it's buried in one of the threads I haven't got to reading all the way through yet). > > That's what this thread is about. See the past few messages. I read Jason's reply to Heather as if to say "we'll let you [and the list] know when we [some subset of undisclosed people] have it all planned and sorted" which sounded rather non-consultative to me. If I've got that all wrong, then please ignore me and carry on. Otherwise, just saying it would be good if the organising could be carried out on the list (perhaps by extending this thread), as I plan on attending the BoF and would like to follow the planning as it progresses. Not a big issue though so please don't interpret this as a flame :) Just eager to follow progress. Cheers, Lawrence From linmei.shu@smc.com Tue Jul 14 16:09:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E883A6A9E for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:09:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.805 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.805 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id biVP-jyi3ari for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smcmx.smc.com (smcmx.smc.com [63.164.94.12]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035543A6970 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smc-notes.smc.com (unknown [63.164.94.10]) by smcmx.smc.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9281175E319 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:59:45 -0700 (PDT) From: linmei.shu@smc.com To: homegate@ietf.org Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:00:08 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SMC-NOTES/smc(Release 6.5.5FP1|April 11, 2006) at 07/14/2009 04:00:09 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Subject: [homegate] Linmei Shu is out of the office. X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:09:45 -0000 DQpJIHdpbGwgYmUgb3V0IG9mIHRoZSBvZmZpY2Ugc3RhcnRpbmcgIDA3LzEyLzIwMDkgYW5kIHdp bGwgbm90IHJldHVybiB1bnRpbA0KMDcvMjcvMjAwOS4NCg0KSSB3aWxsIHJlc3BvbmQgdG8geW91 ciBtZXNzYWdlIHdoZW4gSSByZXR1cm4uIEZvciBXQ1JOIGFuZCBVU0cgdGVjaG5pY2FsDQppc3N1 ZXMsIHBsZWFzZSBjb250YWN0IHlhbi5odWFuZ0BzbWMuY29tLiBGb3IgV0NSTiBhbmQgVVNHIHNv ZnR3YXJlDQpyZWxlYXNlcywgcGxlYXNlIGNvbnRhY3QgYmluLndhbmdAYWNjdG9uLmNvbS5jbi4g Rm9yIHRlc3RpbmcgcmVxdWVzdCwNCnBsZWFzZSBjb250YWN0IG5hdGhlbi5oYW5AYWNjdG9uLmNv bS5jbi4gRm9yIG90aGVyIGFzc2lzdGFuY2UsIHBsZWFzZQ0KY29udGFjdCBteSBtYW5hZ2VyIGdy ZWcuZmlzaGVyQHNtYy5jb20uDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCkxpbm1laSBTaHUNCkRpcmVjdG9yIG9mIFJl c2VhcmNoICYgRGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQNCkJyb2FkYmFuZCBCdXNpbmVzcyBEZXZlbG9wbWVudA0KU01D IE5ldHdvcmtzDQpvZmZpY2U6ICA1MTIuMjQ5Ljk1MTUseDEwMQ0KbW9iaWxlOiAgNTEyLjc5Ni42 ODA0DQpsaW5tZWkuc2h1QHNtYy5jb20= From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Tue Jul 14 21:43:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254D33A6828 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:43:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.969, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VvPUCNyPaOrP for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.58]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176933A67A1 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([10.52.116.31]) by paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-NTF18.74891265; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:35:21 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP02.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:35:22 -0400 Received: from 68.83.175.155 ([68.83.175.155]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 00:35:19 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.19.0.090515 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:35:17 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Lawrence Stewart , Paul Hoffman Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? Thread-Index: AcoE5CAJDcVfBSf2UUOcGO1LsXkxpg== In-Reply-To: <4A5CAC40.8060307@swin.edu.au> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2009 00:35:22.0086 (UTC) FILETIME=[23112060:01CA04E4] Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:43:30 -0000 This needn't be so complex, really. We've been discussing on the list now for awhile whether to have a bar BoF or not, and off-list some of the ADs and others have suggested that it may be a good idea as well (we - being Dave Oran and I - sought their advice and direction). I am merely suggesting that based on a number of emails I have received, people seem to be asking for Monday. I haven't worked out any logistics past that. So, taking one step back, is there interest in a bar BoF or not? And if so, would Monday evening work for folks? Jason On 7/14/09 12:03 PM, "Lawrence Stewart" wrote: > Paul Hoffman wrote: >> At 4:33 PM +0100 7/14/09, Lawrence Stewart wrote: >>> Livingood, Jason wrote: >>>> We're tentatively planning a bar BoF for Monday night, more details to >>>> follow as we work on a venue and so on. >>> Who's we, and is there any reason why these plans can't be discussed/fleshed >>> out on the list? (Please forgive me if it's buried in one of the threads I >>> haven't got to reading all the way through yet). >> >> That's what this thread is about. See the past few messages. > > I read Jason's reply to Heather as if to say "we'll let you [and the > list] know when we [some subset of undisclosed people] have it all > planned and sorted" which sounded rather non-consultative to me. If I've > got that all wrong, then please ignore me and carry on. Otherwise, just > saying it would be good if the organising could be carried out on the > list (perhaps by extending this thread), as I plan on attending the BoF > and would like to follow the planning as it progresses. > > Not a big issue though so please don't interpret this as a flame :) Just > eager to follow progress. > > Cheers, > Lawrence From jhw@apple.com Tue Jul 14 22:04:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8B63A6860 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:04:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.992 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.992 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.263, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id umeSQp7hqOD8 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074E13A682F for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay14.apple.com (relay14.apple.com [17.128.113.52]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BB56D56E38 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay14.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay14.apple.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with ESMTP id 908D928084 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807134-ab489bb0000021f3-6d-4a5d5f863eef Received: from [17.151.124.134] (unknown [17.151.124.134]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by relay14.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 4A6B128043 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1070) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:48:05 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <78CEEC3B-CEF2-44B1-A98E-05F87869C188@apple.com> References: To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1070) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 05:04:20 -0000 On Jul 14, 2009, at 17:35 , Livingood, Jason wrote: > > So, taking one step back, is there interest in a bar BoF or not? > And if so, would Monday evening work for folks? My travel auth for IETF 75 has been approved, so I'm planning to be there. Monday works, but you know I'm coming from California, so with luck I won't be falling asleep in the middle of things. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From lars.eggert@nokia.com Wed Jul 15 01:45:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919403A6A36 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 01:45:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iK3UfTsWyhXP for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 01:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F4A3A696B for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 01:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.22] (p54AE19B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.174.25.179]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.fit.nokia.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6F8hVX0010264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:43:32 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from lars.eggert@nokia.com) Message-Id: <39890251-DFCD-40B8-92F6-E420425F2F50@nokia.com> From: Lars Eggert To: "Livingood, Jason" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-40-904754928; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:43:30 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.fit.nokia.com [212.213.221.39]); Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:43:34 +0300 (EEST) Cc: Lawrence Stewart , Paul Hoffman , "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:45:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail-40-904754928 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2009-7-15, at 2:35, Livingood, Jason wrote: > So, taking one step back, is there interest in a bar BoF or not? From my side (as an AD), yes. As I said before, I believe there is important work here for the IETF to do, but I also believe we need some more discussion time before we have agreed on exactly what the scope and focus should be. > And if so, would Monday evening work for folks? Monday night is the traditional TSV directorate & chairs dinner. Then again, no night is perfect. Can we simply use the Doodle that Iljitsch set up to figure out which day is best? (http://www.doodle.com/32b5xhqp6e94vvnt ) Lars --Apple-Mail-40-904754928 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGQDCCAvkw ggJioAMCAQICEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MDgyMzE3NDMzOVoXDTA5MDgyMzE3NDMz OVowXDEPMA0GA1UEBBMGRWdnZXJ0MQ0wCwYDVQQqEwRMYXJzMRQwEgYDVQQDEwtMYXJzIEVnZ2Vy dDEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYVbGFycy5lZ2dlcnRAbm9raWEuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAlwQVktJZCY89iU6jcW1XnZQN+aMgF2utCUT3H3ZKB5Jbet1SDWt0md/W 571bHjxtn9CfEJdochNL3l9f1WiJNdVbJ182557Ltx9SojqthpqtA0jKEqo2gqrf+raUj1demmo0 6ocsLqv046CrwidOp6k0RAfvkKPLhD4PD9Nk3oaZuxqBz1wY4u8Q83iWMArDeXiQxfNZnOBz5cDs VvVjTjitm3VANkbD02tNkwl5AHw7htde4yH8hIwlfzqsAtHBEah3HyOvs9b+gHg2pFz9eS+HuotY ZKycCweRs8NKXoCg+zAkVYi3zvZEH2VOuPlpMQMrB9+fLWg2UBsTeZ864wIDAQABozIwMDAgBgNV HREEGTAXgRVsYXJzLmVnZ2VydEBub2tpYS5jb20wDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUF AAOBgQBMdV2U+ryV5t3nuBFH19XKflodN6Bc60GBYHHY/Z0+Cl08Q75qzTt02IILBg+/YVh/fygb 6pFrOm1sFtLN7fENBfbO2VtpFjP2lGUgbXTVT5xGM6+MtqZiBI6LqexAeY6gsd/taoUfy9fZG42d ciBA9gSGlQjjWQyG8mb5HR8L9jCCAz8wggKooAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgdExCzAJ BgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgG A1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMg RGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3 DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3 MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5 KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAxKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9 fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkVcI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+ uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUqVIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMB Af8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMGA1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3 dGVQZXJzb25hbEZyZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgG A1UEAxMRUHJpdmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcP f6+svsIXoUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH 2ydxVyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU1341YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8x ggMQMIIDDAIBATB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAo UHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQ SLtZswwprYYsoWlANo4FATAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIIBbzAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcB MBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0wOTA3MTUwODQzMzFaMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEWBBQOmm71+dlJaHSm tzELkyD/P/JIhzCBhQYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMXgwdjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEwgYcGCyqGSIb3DQEJEAILMXigdjBiMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEw DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAQRZ1rTD7bbvFAsl6jeZfpdWaUZrlJWjNurEqyMW9W+LF7DcBCIFB frSD4HSoXaUks5Pnojj6oM7rPr02WAXLde1flZUAgOA9b+J3oFp3nxQWm9xZ9IrPjdKdYURbJUry DwifNV1/SBePonHcofFcysbA2n7PN7Fau1od4+5adj+FVACKnGJfkbQPTkt6/konvilnWrE8orfd PwcF/qJ+aBk/YuSZL6Q4t/xlQChOtQ3x78zU+VU9d0zTHRUIAfwvaofup0HwZc0XzVWdEtCsZSG4 6UZaSyAeP5wwoduoyJBILLNocS0fk66OH76WiqZ/HH7k2GXeFm/RnzK8V6qqoQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-40-904754928-- From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Wed Jul 15 04:15:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE313A685D for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:15:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.474 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Bg4BjCpRDtN for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.58]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891D93A67A6 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-NTF18.74901647; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:53:46 -0400 Received: from NJCHLEXCMB01.cable.comcast.com ([172.24.2.44]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:53:47 -0400 Received: from 209.49.176.2 ([209.49.176.2]) by NJCHLEXCMB01.cable.comcast.com ([172.24.2.44]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:53:12 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:53:10 -0400 From: John Jason Brzozowski To: Jason Livingood , Lawrence Stewart , Paul Hoffman Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? Thread-Index: AcoE5CAJDcVfBSf2UUOcGO1LsXkxpgAVlE5T In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2009 10:53:47.0630 (UTC) FILETIME=[87B1D0E0:01CA053A] Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:15:06 -0000 +1 on interest. Could we do Tues, Wed, or Thur instead? John ========================================= John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Corporation e) mailto:john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com m) 609-377-6594 ========================================= > From: Jason Livingood > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:35:17 -0400 > To: Lawrence Stewart , Paul Hoffman > > Cc: > Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? > > This needn't be so complex, really. We've been discussing on the list now > for awhile whether to have a bar BoF or not, and off-list some of the ADs > and others have suggested that it may be a good idea as well (we - being > Dave Oran and I - sought their advice and direction). I am merely > suggesting that based on a number of emails I have received, people seem to > be asking for Monday. I haven't worked out any logistics past that. > > So, taking one step back, is there interest in a bar BoF or not? > > And if so, would Monday evening work for folks? > > Jason > > > On 7/14/09 12:03 PM, "Lawrence Stewart" wrote: > >> Paul Hoffman wrote: >>> At 4:33 PM +0100 7/14/09, Lawrence Stewart wrote: >>>> Livingood, Jason wrote: >>>>> We're tentatively planning a bar BoF for Monday night, more details to >>>>> follow as we work on a venue and so on. >>>> Who's we, and is there any reason why these plans can't be >>>> discussed/fleshed >>>> out on the list? (Please forgive me if it's buried in one of the threads I >>>> haven't got to reading all the way through yet). >>> >>> That's what this thread is about. See the past few messages. >> >> I read Jason's reply to Heather as if to say "we'll let you [and the >> list] know when we [some subset of undisclosed people] have it all >> planned and sorted" which sounded rather non-consultative to me. If I've >> got that all wrong, then please ignore me and carry on. Otherwise, just >> saying it would be good if the organising could be carried out on the >> list (perhaps by extending this thread), as I plan on attending the BoF >> and would like to follow the planning as it progresses. >> >> Not a big issue though so please don't interpret this as a flame :) Just >> eager to follow progress. >> >> Cheers, >> Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From townsley@cisco.com Wed Jul 15 04:54:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE063A684F for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:54:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.014 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.014 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.285, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fOvupBjWJ+s0 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4A328C0DD for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAPtfXUqrR7PD/2dsb2JhbAC2ZogjMwmQSgWCTYE8 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,404,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="86013475" Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Jul 2009 11:53:02 +0000 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6FBr24F028852; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:53:02 -0700 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6FBr13S003624; Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:53:02 GMT Received: from xfe-ams-332.cisco.com ([144.254.231.73]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:52:54 +0200 Received: from ams-townsley-8713.cisco.com ([10.55.233.228]) by xfe-ams-332.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:52:53 +0200 Message-ID: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:51:49 +0200 From: Mark Townsley User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Macintosh/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Jason Brzozowski References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2009 11:52:53.0935 (UTC) FILETIME=[C97503F0:01CA0542] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3019; t=1247658782; x=1248522782; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=townsley@cisco.com; z=From:=20Mark=20Townsley=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Meeting=20time=20in=20Stoc kholm? |Sender:=20; bh=3dDNHk+tYoY/hkwqUFfrvxEEirXQ7A12HbgptZq80hA=; b=WeyGz5UF1laoXAxLy3N0ylB7O3rimuoB3aV55+OrVMyCx3Lpk+m1qTWYaY oCi53e9xShAnhzHc8rEu0iBwajUzAy/HTcCzb/tTVxm/4JCVsmMPq9mRmsN6 daNlUV1aWJ; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=townsley@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Cc: Lawrence Stewart , Jason Livingood , Paul Hoffman , homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:54:14 -0000 A reminder to register preferences here: http://www.doodle.com/32b5xhqp6e94vvnt - Mark John Jason Brzozowski wrote: > +1 on interest. Could we do Tues, Wed, or Thur instead? > > John > ========================================= > John Jason Brzozowski > Comcast Corporation > e) mailto:john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com > m) 609-377-6594 > ========================================= > > > >> From: Jason Livingood >> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:35:17 -0400 >> To: Lawrence Stewart , Paul Hoffman >> >> Cc: >> Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? >> >> This needn't be so complex, really. We've been discussing on the list now >> for awhile whether to have a bar BoF or not, and off-list some of the ADs >> and others have suggested that it may be a good idea as well (we - being >> Dave Oran and I - sought their advice and direction). I am merely >> suggesting that based on a number of emails I have received, people seem to >> be asking for Monday. I haven't worked out any logistics past that. >> >> So, taking one step back, is there interest in a bar BoF or not? >> >> And if so, would Monday evening work for folks? >> >> Jason >> >> >> On 7/14/09 12:03 PM, "Lawrence Stewart" wrote: >> >> >>> Paul Hoffman wrote: >>> >>>> At 4:33 PM +0100 7/14/09, Lawrence Stewart wrote: >>>> >>>>> Livingood, Jason wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> We're tentatively planning a bar BoF for Monday night, more details to >>>>>> follow as we work on a venue and so on. >>>>>> >>>>> Who's we, and is there any reason why these plans can't be >>>>> discussed/fleshed >>>>> out on the list? (Please forgive me if it's buried in one of the threads I >>>>> haven't got to reading all the way through yet). >>>>> >>>> That's what this thread is about. See the past few messages. >>>> >>> I read Jason's reply to Heather as if to say "we'll let you [and the >>> list] know when we [some subset of undisclosed people] have it all >>> planned and sorted" which sounded rather non-consultative to me. If I've >>> got that all wrong, then please ignore me and carry on. Otherwise, just >>> saying it would be good if the organising could be carried out on the >>> list (perhaps by extending this thread), as I plan on attending the BoF >>> and would like to follow the planning as it progresses. >>> >>> Not a big issue though so please don't interpret this as a flame :) Just >>> eager to follow progress. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Lawrence >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> homegate mailing list >> homegate@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >> > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > > From iljitsch@muada.com Thu Jul 16 14:04:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2008D28C254 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:04:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3jRw61eN9vp for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ECF63A6961 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.4] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6GL4CuI060323 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:04:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Mark Townsley In-Reply-To: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:04:15 +0200 References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:04:28 -0000 On 15 jul 2009, at 13:51, Mark Townsley wrote: > A reminder to register preferences here: > http://www.doodle.com/32b5xhqp6e94vvnt We now have 15 votes for monday, 5 for tuesday, 14 for wednesday and 13 for thursday. Iljitsch From townsley@cisco.com Thu Jul 16 15:10:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFF73A6C82 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:10:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.252 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.252 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.477, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dtZGsZSLcnNH for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787F43A6AF7 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:10:01 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkAAANtBX0qQ/uCLe2dsb2JhbACZPwEBFiQGnwSII5EcBYQN X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,413,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="45264803" Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Jul 2009 22:10:33 +0000 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6GMAWfO002392; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:10:32 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6GMAXKH011429; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:10:33 GMT Received: from xfe-ams-331.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.72]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:10:32 +0200 Received: from ams-townsley-8713.cisco.com ([10.55.233.228]) by xfe-ams-331.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:10:32 +0200 Message-ID: <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:09:24 +0200 From: Mark Townsley User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Macintosh/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2009 22:10:32.0557 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C87B9D0:01CA0662] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=386; t=1247782232; x=1248646232; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=townsley@cisco.com; z=From:=20Mark=20Townsley=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Meeting=20time=20in=20Stoc kholm? |Sender:=20; bh=0N48FQHrI5j5dYCvcpEvjrcQUKMUhjoqrtbb3kJW56w=; b=cHo3Q1CJp38JUcuu2RbABSWcT6fnK2KaXbhdWr2lmqYS3No1jyHGseKmpN ZddL5f0OapfUdLL7muNJf5Q1S9hMF3gOt5smu6/CY3jNdqtL5uOKAod9GFYz RHXLj1TV77; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=townsley@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:10:03 -0000 May we call it for Monday then? (only day I can attend, so I'm obviously biased). - Mark Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 15 jul 2009, at 13:51, Mark Townsley wrote: > >> A reminder to register preferences here: > >> http://www.doodle.com/32b5xhqp6e94vvnt > > We now have 15 votes for monday, 5 for tuesday, 14 for wednesday and > 13 for thursday. > > Iljitsch > From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Thu Jul 16 17:06:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F353A6C8D for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:06:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.164 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.164 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.435, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pbO6ghfibDvo for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614263A6C6D for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.37.18.34] (74-95-99-41-Richmond.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [74.95.99.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n6H07Ne5044637 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:07:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:07:23 -0400 To: Mark Townsley , Iljitsch van Beijnum From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:06:56 -0000 At 12:09 AM +0200 7/17/09, Mark Townsley wrote: >May we call it for Monday then? (only day I can attend, so I'm obviously biased). Yes, please, let's decide soon. Monday seems as good as any. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From iljitsch@muada.com Sun Jul 19 23:08:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FD23A6B46 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.472 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.472 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.257, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JLM9jZS472FG for ; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3607128C153 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.4] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6K67rbl084811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:07:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:07:59 +0200 References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 06:08:10 -0000 On 17 jul 2009, at 2:07, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> May we call it for Monday then? (only day I can attend, so I'm >> obviously biased). > Yes, please, let's decide soon. Monday seems as good as any. We need to pull the trigger at some point... A few more people have participated in the doodle but the results haven't really changed: monday 17, tuesday 7, wednesday 15, thursday 14. From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Mon Jul 20 10:20:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3253A6B32 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:20:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.754 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.754 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x9Z0HKPrKHIB for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2C73A6834 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n6KHKUvu053507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:20:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:20:29 -0700 To: homegate@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:20:43 -0000 Some of us need to plan our other evenings. Given that there is no WG leadership yet, and given that this is an informal meeting, and given that Jason already suggested Monday night, let's just go with it. He or someone else can pick a bar with food and let the list know. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From oran@cisco.com Mon Jul 20 11:04:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7214F28C1CA for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:04:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.164 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.164 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.435, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oL5svBphIy11 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A994E3A6B32 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:04:04 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAKtOZEqrR7PD/2dsb2JhbAC6D4gjjjMFhAw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,235,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="178194648" Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Jul 2009 18:03:37 +0000 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6KI3bv6024858; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:03:37 -0700 Received: from sjc-vpnasa-311.cisco.com (sjc-vpnasa-311.cisco.com [10.21.105.57]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6KI3Zrp010668; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:03:36 GMT Message-Id: <5F2A585E-1E82-4F4D-B76B-78629B1B4686@cisco.com> From: David R Oran To: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:03:35 -0400 References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=573; t=1248113017; x=1248977017; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=oran@cisco.com; z=From:=20David=20R=20Oran=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Meeting=20time=20in=20Stoc kholm? |Sender:=20; bh=3FW9ZbXTtJp3V84q9gfCirrXbIgMkYBJV/u3expu9LQ=; b=qV/nSQ6EUucG0SUj0i9ryBRBbzFLQM9Fhep4FAzZEsIprY3g3VVL8mLsnm 3G1OSvCyTSW4aMnXRGoTFHDTfckqQAHxi9p+vbhjeqes+CdY0KCT531unDlM mHtIrwRSdo; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=oran@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:04:13 -0000 Confirmed. Monday night it is. On Jul 20, 2009, at 1:20 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Some of us need to plan our other evenings. Given that there is no > WG leadership yet, and given that this is an informal meeting, and > given that Jason already suggested Monday night, let's just go with > it. He or someone else can pick a bar with food and let the list know. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --VPN Consortium > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From ajs@shinkuro.com Mon Jul 20 14:36:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5253A6D7E for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P-P-ivSlBJRV for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF703A6CF6 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.99.102] (CPE00116b6265ec-CM00195eefd958.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [174.114.84.135]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE4242FE8ED5; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:24:59 +0000 (UTC) From: Andrew Sullivan To: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7A341) References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> Message-Id: <64491BB5-3C3A-45C2-81B1-7613E0C99AB6@shinkuro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7A341) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:24:55 -0400 Cc: "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:36:26 -0000 I don't know about others, but I've now filled the rest of the week, so I cN only make it Monday (although I assume I'll be able to sell my social ticket if this meeting is moved to Tues). Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com On 2009-07-20, at 13:20, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Some of us need to plan our other evenings. Given that there is no > WG leadership yet, and given that this is an informal meeting, and > given that Jason already suggested Monday night, let's just go with > it. He or someone else can pick a bar with food and let the list know. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --VPN Consortium > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From iljitsch@muada.com Tue Jul 21 07:51:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD433A6E85 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.283 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.283 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.684, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FH+Rs01f34wl for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E403A6E81 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claw.it.uc3m.es (claw.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.55]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6LEoD1t097831 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:50:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: <53CD5209-83E9-4EAD-9E07-704B19732FFD@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: David R Oran In-Reply-To: <5F2A585E-1E82-4F4D-B76B-78629B1B4686@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:50:20 +0200 References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> <5F2A585E-1E82-4F4D-B76B-78629B1B4686@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Cc: Paul Hoffman , homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:51:11 -0000 On 20 jul 2009, at 20:03, David R Oran wrote: > Confirmed. Monday night it is. Apparently that didn't stop people from participating int the poll. Rest assured that monday was still in the lead as I closed it just now, though. What time do we meet where? From fred@cisco.com Tue Jul 21 08:05:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB9528C2D3 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RHA1C99QXe4G for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB43B3A6848 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAEd1ZUqrR7O6/2dsb2JhbAC6Bogjj24Fgi2BXw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,240,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="39792643" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Jul 2009 15:04:39 +0000 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6LF4cXj016832; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:04:38 -0700 Received: from [192.168.15.230] (sjc-vpn5-1429.cisco.com [10.21.93.149]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6LF4aXI004628; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:04:37 GMT Message-Id: From: Fred Baker To: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <39890251-DFCD-40B8-92F6-E420425F2F50@nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:04:36 -0700 References: <39890251-DFCD-40B8-92F6-E420425F2F50@nokia.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=225; t=1248188678; x=1249052678; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Meeting=20time=20in=20Stoc kholm? |Sender:=20; bh=Jn1fFQf9A3rhnMKgU3YM3JImn9d0fUnzxro2zhjP28g=; b=bcA082m9iLC8D0hCbn5wZsu34i0c5XMe5gXJjNhgIw79jFKgue/xmmp91p XIO0dYGAMsAPw60djcEqUE/+pXyL4ituTWgfqsHoCsgxF925JbUHSaTiFfoe aNatocSZlQ; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Cc: Lawrence Stewart , "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Hoffman , "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:05:02 -0000 apparently not. It appears closed. On Jul 15, 2009, at 1:43 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: > Can we simply use the Doodle that Iljitsch set up to figure out > which day is best? (http://www.doodle.com/32b5xhqp6e94vvnt > ) From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Tue Jul 21 08:53:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E493A6E62 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.183 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.183 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.584, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KMgbacix7H-E for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1608C3A6C6C for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n6LFrDg7047118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:53:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <53CD5209-83E9-4EAD-9E07-704B19732FFD@muada.com> References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> <5F2A585E-1E82-4F4D-B76B-78629B1B4686@cisco.com> <53CD5209-83E9-4EAD-9E07-704B19732FFD@muada.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:53:12 -0700 To: homegate@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:53:19 -0000 At 4:50 PM +0200 7/21/09, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >What time do we meet where? So that five people aren't deciding this, let's leave it with Jason, who started the idea. I gave him the name of a pub that I heard was good and had reasonable bar food (not cheap, but most pubs aren't cheap), and I think he might be investigating others. As for when, probably 2015 or 2030, giving people time after the last meeting to walk to the place. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From iljitsch@muada.com Tue Jul 21 08:56:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C1A3A6E68 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:56:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.225 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.225 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.626, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MkXzPvtgkQvv for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6D73A6E62 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claw.it.uc3m.es (claw.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.55]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6LFtkDH098380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:55:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: <30B97550-E93B-4D06-9BEF-ACF52BD902A1@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:55:52 +0200 References: <4A5DC2D5.50307@cisco.com> <4A5FA514.3020303@cisco.com> <5F2A585E-1E82-4F4D-B76B-78629B1B4686@cisco.com> <53CD5209-83E9-4EAD-9E07-704B19732FFD@muada.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:56:02 -0000 On 21 jul 2009, at 17:53, Paul Hoffman wrote: > As for when, probably 2015 or 2030, giving people time after the > last meeting to walk to the place. Maybe meet in a predetermined corner of the registration area at 19:45 for those so inclined? From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Tue Jul 21 10:30:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFAF3A6AFA for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:30:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.474 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dqj+TuWK1ODD for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.58]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B03228C3C6 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([10.52.116.31]) by paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-NTF18.75364559; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:28:20 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP02.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:28:19 -0400 Received: from 165.137.248.249 ([165.137.248.249]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.152]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:28:05 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.19.0.090515 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:28:05 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Paul Hoffman Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? Thread-Index: AcoKKJsQH+Dy5d7slEu80ASlkLv8DA== In-Reply-To: <30B97550-E93B-4D06-9BEF-ACF52BD902A1@muada.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2009 17:28:19.0647 (UTC) FILETIME=[A3CB74F0:01CA0A28] Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Meeting time in Stockholm? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:30:42 -0000 Sounds good - so we can have a spot for people to meet locally in the venue, or they can meet at the bar. We are trying now to find something close. But we're now expecting Monday evening, so pencil that into your calendar so to speak. Jason On 7/21/09 11:55 AM, "Iljitsch van Beijnum" wrote: > On 21 jul 2009, at 17:53, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> As for when, probably 2015 or 2030, giving people time after the >> last meeting to walk to the place. > > Maybe meet in a predetermined corner of the registration area at 19:45 > for those so inclined? > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Wed Jul 22 06:00:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E777C3A6932 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 06:00:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.934 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.934 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3XhkPNCqerzr for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 06:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.58]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545FF3A6904 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 06:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-NTF18.75413492; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:59:04 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:59:05 -0400 Received: from 10.36.150.47 ([10.36.150.47]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.152]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:58:05 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.19.0.090515 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:58:03 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Bar BoF Draft Topics Thread-Index: AcoKzAxVlFxmdQY8LEOVOKv0t7Ju9A== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3331097883_590616" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2009 12:59:05.0279 (UTC) FILETIME=[317444F0:01CA0ACC] Subject: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:00:26 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3331097883_590616 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable For your review, comment, changes... Homegate Bar BoF Details=20 * When: Monday, July 27, 8:00pm (20:00) local time * Where: TBD=20 Topics=20 * Thoughts on the scope of a draft charter =AD how broad or narrow should it be?=20 * DNSSEC and DNS Proxy concerns * IPv6 and DHCPv6 concerns * ECN and RED concerns * Multicast functionality/performance - MLD, IGMP proxying, multicast/unicast conversion. * Security concerns * Firmware update concerns * Questions over management of devices (and split management) Resources=20 * Homegate mailing list @ https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate * Draft homegate overview @ http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/attachment/wiki/WikiStart/HomeGate%20Bo= F %20Proposal%20-%20IETF%2075%20-%20v7.pdf=20 --B_3331097883_590616 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Bar BoF Draft Topics For your review, comment, changes...

Homegate Bar BoF
Details
  • When: Monday, July 27, 8:00pm (20:00) loc= al time=20
  • Where: TBD
Topics
  • Thoughts on the scope of a draft charter = – how broad or narrow should it be?=20
  • DNSSEC and DNS Proxy concerns=20
  • IPv6 and DHCPv6 concerns=20
  • ECN and RED concerns=20
  • Multicast functionality/performance - MLD, IGMP proxying= , multicast/unicast conversion.
  • Security concerns
  • Firmware update concerns=20
  • Questions over management of devices (and split manageme= nt)
Resources
--B_3331097883_590616-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Wed Jul 22 06:59:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180943A68C5 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 06:59:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.001 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hSEK2VD0xXYF for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 06:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5269F3A6A3D for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 06:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.15.118]) by paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-TDCH7.65645778; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:41:06 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP04.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:41:07 -0400 Received: from 198.137.252.126 ([198.137.252.126]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([198.137.252.76]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:40:42 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.19.0.090515 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:40:39 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Attendee Count - Bar BoF (click link to RSVP) Thread-Index: AcoK0f/T0RNG9PwpXUKmbrthvaofIQ== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3331100439_688704" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2009 13:41:07.0590 (UTC) FILETIME=[10DE6260:01CA0AD2] Subject: [homegate] Attendee Count - Bar BoF (click link to RSVP) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:59:08 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3331100439_688704 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We need to get a solid attendee count for the bar BoF, so we can select an appropriately-sized venue. Please advise here if you will attend. (Note =AD this is the 1st time I am trying this online invitation / RSVP tracking sit= e =AD hopefully it works okay.) http://www.pingg.com/rsvp/sg4d37smvjb2my8r7 Regards Jason --B_3331100439_688704 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Attendee Count - Bar BoF (click link to RSVP) We need to get a solid attendee count for the bar BoF, so we can select an= appropriately-sized venue.  Please advise here if you will attend. &nb= sp;(Note – this is the 1st time I am trying this online invitation / R= SVP tracking site – hopefully it works okay.)

http://www.pingg.com/= rsvp/sg4d37smvjb2my8r7

Regards
Jason
--B_3331100439_688704-- From martyf@gmail.com Wed Jul 22 08:12:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482483A6A2A for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:12:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eBGCoiLJIgGP for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f226.google.com (mail-ew0-f226.google.com [209.85.219.226]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6013A6403 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ewy26 with SMTP id 26so286370ewy.37 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=mayckv+mgAINBlRq9Rwlvi98x9Wk2kxvquOzvDqtw0k=; b=FkUmI1S3A+iVUPT+d4Bhmj6pqAMoXmvk2tFmhKLDFpHvd1jpRa047yU4YLG857P8WG 8g+7Bt01/ZHnkEqVdSo+7FPnH7Zd+OJHXgH8daae9JrbCy8JHIz+zFIN0KrST1rhE6jP WJJ4irn0/kTgRlXSc9laCujy9BccsFTqn1Yng= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=EGY5jbArLzHEMTlw2ekmDuZGHCSYxSVOSSt7Es0Q8GUZ1KoVEsKgFfBTUh0Jip/uFO xkx5krKR/sEyV5UUFy7TZ5wbZaIYVLEZp+AoWGyDAe05MWTWfTLFVGiL+hh5cvIHYfFF TdxBRsBG+VYAB2sF/mtsbO/tQNY10tUJyD+vI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.39.194 with SMTP id d44mr281981web.116.1248275107615; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:05:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:05:07 -0400 Message-ID: <6eae86940907220805i40eed95en5842dd24c31c2e4d@mail.gmail.com> From: Martin Focazio To: "Livingood, Jason" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016365ee0ba5f136b046f4cb2da Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:12:26 -0000 --0016365ee0ba5f136b046f4cb2da Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello folks - I've been lurking on this list for a while and I'm pleased to see that there's some movement on the subject. I am not on the engineering side of things - I work for a digital media agency in New York City that does large-scale web projects for huge companies (like AT&T for instance), and my primary concern is in User Experience strategic planning and design. Thus, my main concerns in this project are both technical (what can it do and how) and experiential (what is the user going to experience when they try to set up and manage a gatewa= y for a home-based heterogeneous IPv4/V6 environment?). While this may be a technical task force now, it's really, really important that at this stage of the game a LOT of consideration is given to reality o= f a slow, painful and complicated time of mixed IPv4 and IPv6 home networks a= s well as the reality that many of the IPv6 features - like Multicasting - will need far more core network capability before any significant effort is needed to define the home gateway requirements. While travel to Stockholm sounds wonderful, I can't be there, but I send yo= u all this message in the hopes that even at this stage of the project, you keep the following scenario in your mind: One day, Dad comes home from work. Everyone in the house is mad at him. *His wife was trying to print something, but she had to turn the printer of= f because it was spewing page after page of porn- the printer was inadvertently visible to the whole internet and folks were throwing files at it from all over the world. A friend of his son's is sleeping over and he brought his netbook and can't connect to the home wifi network.. His daughter is trying to set up a webcam to monitor the growth of some plants as part of a school project, but the camera's built-in web server is fixed to an IP4 address and port 8080 and her friends can't see it. The phones stopped working because their Voice Over IP box from Vonage had an automati= c firmware update that changed a network setting. * All of this is about the Home Gateway, and the smart but overwhelmed dad or mom IS THE USER BASE, so while the real core technology thought goes on for the Home Gateway, I hope that there's an eye toward the mundane reality of end-user experiences and how they will be realized and metaphors that have been successful in the past ("Leasing" an IP address via DHCP) are used as wither a basis of or extension of new and improved functionality. Again, thank you to all who are participating in this group, this is a much-needed thing! Martin T. Focazio On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Livingood, Jason < Jason_Livingood@cable.comcast.com> wrote: > For your review, comment, changes... > * > Homegate Bar BoF > Details > * > > - When: Monday, July 27, 8:00pm (20:00) local time > - Where: TBD > > *Topics > * > > - Thoughts on the scope of a draft charter =96 how broad or narrow sho= uld > it be? > - DNSSEC and DNS Proxy concerns > - IPv6 and DHCPv6 concerns > - ECN and RED concerns > - Multicast functionality/performance - MLD, IGMP proxying, > multicast/unicast conversion. > - Security concerns > - Firmware update concerns > - Questions over management of devices (and split management) > > *Resources > * > > - Homegate mailing list @ * > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate* > - Draft homegate overview @ * > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/attachment/wiki/WikiStart/HomeGate= %20BoF%20Proposal%20-%20IETF%2075%20-%20v7.pdf > * > - > > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > > --0016365ee0ba5f136b046f4cb2da Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello folks - I've been lurking on this list for a while and I'm pl= eased to see that there's some movement on the subject.=A0

I am not on the engineering side of things - I work for a digital media ag= ency in New York City that does large-scale web projects for huge companies= (like AT&T for instance), and my primary concern is in User Experience= strategic planning and design. Thus, my main concerns in this project are = both technical (what can it do and how) and experiential (what is the user = going to experience when they try to set up and manage a gateway for a home= -based heterogeneous IPv4/V6 environment?).=A0

While this may be a technical task force now, it's = really, really important that at this stage of the game a LOT of considerat= ion is given to reality of a slow, painful and complicated time of mixed IP= v4 and IPv6 home networks as well as the reality that many of the IPv6 feat= ures - like Multicasting - will need far more core network capability befor= e any=A0significant=A0effort is needed to define the home gateway requireme= nts.=A0

While travel to Stockholm sounds wonderful, I can't= be there, but I send you all this message in the hopes that even at this s= tage of the project, you keep the following scenario in your mind:=A0

One day,=A0Dad comes home from work. Everyone in the house is mad = at him.=A0
His wife was trying to print something,= but she had to turn the printer off because it was spewing page after page= of porn- the printer was=A0inadvertently=A0visible to the whole internet a= nd folks were throwing files at it from all over the world. A friend of his= son's is sleeping over and he brought his netbook and can't connec= t to the home wifi network.. His daughter is trying to set up a webcam to m= onitor the growth of some plants as part of a school project, but the camer= a's built-in web server is fixed to an IP4 address and port 8080 and he= r friends can't see it. The phones stopped working because their Voice = Over IP box from Vonage had an automatic firmware update that changed a net= work setting.=A0

All of this is about the Home Gateway, and the sm= art but=A0overwhelmed=A0dad or mom IS THE USER BASE, so while the real core= technology thought goes on for the Home Gateway, I hope that there's a= n eye toward the mundane reality of end-user experiences and how they will = be realized and metaphors that have been=A0successful=A0in the past ("= Leasing" an IP address via DHCP) are used as wither a basis of or exte= nsion of new and improved functionality.=A0

Again, thank you to all who are participating in this g= roup, this is a much-needed thing!=A0

Martin T. Fo= cazio





On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Livingood, Jason <Jason_Livingood@cable.com= cast.com> wrote:
For your review, comment, changes...

Homegate Bar BoF
Details
  • When: Monday, July 27, 8:00pm (20:00= ) local time=20
  • Where: TBD
<= font size=3D"5">Topics
  • Thoughts on the scope of a draft cha= rter =96 how broad or narrow should it be?=20
  • DNSSEC and DNS Proxy concerns=20
  • IPv6 and DHCPv6 concerns=20
  • ECN and RED concerns=20
  • Multicast functionality/performance - MLD, IGM= P proxying, multicast/unicast conversion.
  • Security concerns
  • Firmware update concerns=20
  • Questions over management of devices (and spli= t management)
<= font size=3D"5">Resources

_______________________________________________
homegate mailing list
homegate@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate


--0016365ee0ba5f136b046f4cb2da-- From oran@cisco.com Wed Jul 22 08:28:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0728C3A6821 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:28:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.179, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F0L+URFmljA2 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119AE3A67EA for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:28:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Files: PGP.sig : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuAEAAPLZkqrR7MV/2dsb2JhbACBUbhuiCOQbgWEDoFF X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,247,1246838400"; d="sig'?scan'208";a="178715358" Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2009 15:19:38 +0000 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6MFJbYQ002257 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:19:37 -0700 Received: from OranMBP.local (stealth-10-32-245-155.cisco.com [10.32.245.155]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6MFJZWG025138 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:19:37 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by OranMBP.local (PGP Universal service); Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:19:37 -0400 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by OranMBP.local on Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:19:37 -0400 Message-Id: From: David R Oran To: "Livingood, Jason" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:19:30 -0400 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-PGP-Encoding-Format: MIME X-PGP-Encoding-Version: 2.0.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="PGP_Universal_7B1AE457_E494F5C6_61F71F2B_62430A99"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1653; t=1248275978; x=1249139978; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=oran@cisco.com; z=From:=20David=20R=20Oran=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Bar=20BoF=20Draft=20Topics |Sender:=20; bh=VEzt7UtaHsma+2RmSkvDfK1phteVSxpi+nfA6MaNEgc=; b=skjI6NHkKF9qxeqeVVltIqdJE231Yv0LtXObpFZW9vAfVY7iarzWVC/RD9 NriTni9jWbkcY7Vhj/nJHydm2eXHCu+v6FCCbxEsLvqMRnP0Iffjm183qX6h Q6zsA+lPxjGNjngiCu7nutSrfYGZc8QPIGtzpdT+RkcSLw6aaRWzM=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=oran@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:28:12 -0000 --PGP_Universal_7B1AE457_E494F5C6_61F71F2B_62430A99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks good! Let's go for it. On Jul 22, 2009, at 8:58 AM, Livingood, Jason wrote: > For your review, comment, changes... > > Homegate Bar BoF > Details > =95 When: Monday, July 27, 8:00pm (20:00) local time > =95 Where: TBD > Topics > =95 Thoughts on the scope of a draft charter =96 how broad or = narrow =20 > should it be? > =95 DNSSEC and DNS Proxy concerns > =95 IPv6 and DHCPv6 concerns > =95 ECN and RED concerns > =95 Multicast functionality/performance - MLD, IGMP proxying, =20= > multicast/unicast conversion. > =95 Security concerns > =95 Firmware update concerns > =95 Questions over management of devices (and split management) > Resources > =95 Homegate mailing list @ = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > =95 Draft homegate overview @ = http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/attachment/wiki/WikiStart/HomeGate%20B= oF%20Proposal%20-%20IETF%2075%20-%20v7.pdf > =95 > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate --PGP_Universal_7B1AE457_E494F5C6_61F71F2B_62430A99 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=PGP.sig -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP Desktop 9.10.0 (Build 500) iQA/AwUBSmcuCY1mhLZU3SrmEQKSigCfdFkwbGNQebHKZnAh2kng/Up9IuAAn0ON T92JF5Wb88cqBtPMNtuJUEiN =xKNx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PGP_Universal_7B1AE457_E494F5C6_61F71F2B_62430A99-- From iljitsch@muada.com Wed Jul 22 08:50:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8569D3A684D for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:50:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.397, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R4mBqB2ygc3G for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9581E3A681E for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claw.it.uc3m.es (claw.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.55]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6MFHcFl006851 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:17:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: "Livingood, Jason" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:17:45 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:50:36 -0000 On 22 jul 2009, at 14:58, Livingood, Jason wrote: > Topics I would be interested in having a short discussion on cascading of home gateways, where there are several of them in the home. Assuming a DHCPv6 prefix delegation model, this would require that the first (often ISP-provided and therefore presumably not that fully featured) gateway be able to act as a DHCPv6 server and subdelegate a subprefix from the prefix it got from the ISP. A possible simpler solution would be for that gateway to go into bridge mode and let the next CPE do the heavy lifting. It would be good if we could agree that this is an important feature for users, so we should support it. But can we reasonably expect the subdelegation to be implemented in ALL home gateways? From oran@cisco.com Wed Jul 22 08:56:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF74828C1F1 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:56:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2N3r06pt3WT0 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com (rtp-iport-1.cisco.com [64.102.122.148]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 798793A684D for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Files: PGP.sig : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuAEAOjTZkpAZnme/2dsb2JhbACBUbkmiCOQdwWEDoFF X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,247,1246838400"; d="sig'?scan'208";a="51404244" Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2009 15:55:44 +0000 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6MFtiJV005470 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:55:44 -0400 Received: from OranMBP.local (stealth-10-32-245-155.cisco.com [10.32.245.155]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6MFtcjq000057 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:55:44 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by OranMBP.local (PGP Universal service); Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:55:43 -0400 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by OranMBP.local on Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:55:43 -0400 Message-Id: From: David R Oran To: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:55:31 -0400 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-PGP-Encoding-Format: MIME X-PGP-Encoding-Version: 2.0.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="PGP_Universal_C7835209_C374A732_00CAA0EF_D37727F9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2211; t=1248278144; x=1249142144; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=oran@cisco.com; z=From:=20David=20R=20Oran=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Bar=20BoF=20Draft=20Topics |Sender:=20 |To:=20Iljitsch=20van=20Beijnum=20; bh=CBR0uujQy9s6csZcCs2+I4gztD09MBn5RFqNZ/JtaF8=; b=EqN3vx78O1Nr0JXt9p+yw+cFstWjrqv+Sdn/HbWKBSt2Z3teZeYeXtgWVT O983LALDP7GNYP73GEZIkhMTRiAaLc/b305w5e/7hGhg6i6QQ2iAyMjlKP8N 4W8aiwTP38; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=oran@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:56:59 -0000 --PGP_Universal_C7835209_C374A732_00CAA0EF_D37727F9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jul 22, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 22 jul 2009, at 14:58, Livingood, Jason wrote: > >> Topics > > I would be interested in having a short discussion on cascading of > home gateways, where there are several of them in the home. > Good addition, I would generalize it slightly and see if we want to tackle the "multiple subnets in the home" problem. These could be cascaded, parallel, same-cable, or multi-NAT in the IPv4 case. > Assuming a DHCPv6 prefix delegation model, this would require that > the first (often ISP-provided and therefore presumably not that > fully featured) gateway be able to act as a DHCPv6 server and > subdelegate a subprefix from the prefix it got from the ISP. A > possible simpler solution would be for that gateway to go into > bridge mode and let the next CPE do the heavy lifting. > Yes. > It would be good if we could agree that this is an important feature > for users, so we should support it. But can we reasonably expect the > subdelegation to be implemented in ALL home gateways? I would think so, but of course this should be discussed broadly. If we don't do this, we won't get the auto-configuration properties of 802.1 bridges and people will continue to try to hack things at L2 rather than use IP capabilities. For example, at least one vendor uses link-local directly for application interactions because of the inability to count on routing transitive closure in the home. > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate --PGP_Universal_C7835209_C374A732_00CAA0EF_D37727F9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=PGP.sig -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP Desktop 9.10.0 (Build 500) iQA/AwUBSmc2fo1mhLZU3SrmEQJvNACgv/nBksBJ2rk4RrKWU38bxdlJlRUAnic1 HQlddY48U+H9uBtMKLGUb0Hj =c0Xl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PGP_Universal_C7835209_C374A732_00CAA0EF_D37727F9-- From martyf@gmail.com Wed Jul 22 09:23:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754213A6827 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:23:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pRqj1CZ9D-xQ for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f226.google.com (mail-ew0-f226.google.com [209.85.219.226]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD2F28C1D6 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ewy26 with SMTP id 26so344524ewy.37 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:21:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=RCmYrS2IiJ3MEy7NXiz6Xw3BIR5ZLI0tjPcaf/FAejE=; b=i6mJ8gxz6vTLGYeFHvLHzHnbq4v/01psO8JztkJpPOPDgMdh1q+vm0V+O9pLRuMga2 m1zXoy05bFzhAEtMhK7gSLuleZ8DJqTljWtplIb6qyve8sX388zZ+VgZBWkUyybxX8NU eIX4xFe26WdHO3Jcs13UxgAQixrU6lcuwwfaw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=fhWX7c0Rf6k23MPE+xkOU0iyXfHTQoxRAv9uqd6Y7ic3kl0mmckKRuK8DFhDHgpLUA 9YNZrBQVAjZoAHmSVtbZE9ShHs5ZmxesA0NZ1h+Z45RcvjKa63/H5tWfbyX+pLqdRAxg zbAChMcM/c/Hlqs335It+px/T0UPC6VVzR00E= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.15.85 with SMTP id e63mr280602wee.199.1248279344760; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:15:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:15:44 -0400 Message-ID: <6eae86940907220915o1d53036dk8ccbd59000b74b2e@mail.gmail.com> From: Martin Focazio To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64c1ab4ecc905046f4dae32 Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:23:59 -0000 --0016e64c1ab4ecc905046f4dae32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > Assuming a DHCPv6 prefix delegation model, this would require that the > first (often ISP-provided and therefore presumably not that fully featured) > gateway be able to act as a DHCPv6 server and subdelegate a subprefix from > the prefix it got from the ISP. A possible simpler solution would be for > that gateway to go into bridge mode and let the next CPE do the heavy > lifting. > Indeed, the next CPE might be something like a "home access & cloud controller" (HACC) that manages some shared resources (storage, printing, fax gateway, scanners, cameras, VoIP gateways, Media Devices, Gaming Devices, etc) and it also will take on the role of overall network device and user management. We have been designing a pseudo-interface to just such a hypothetical device as a means of conceptualizing how this might work for home users - this downstream CPE device falls somewhere in between a NAS, A Media Center, a Firewall and a Router, and might even toss in Parental Controls. It's kind of the logical evolution of things, and we see this as being a critical concept in the successful deployment of IPv6 to the home. --0016e64c1ab4ecc905046f4dae32 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Iljitsch van B= eijnum <iljitsch= @muada.com> wrote:
Assuming a DHCPv6 prefix delegation model, this would require that the firs= t (often ISP-provided and therefore presumably not that fully featured) gat= eway be able to act as a DHCPv6 server and subdelegate a subprefix from the= prefix it got from the ISP. A possible simpler solution would be for that = gateway to go into bridge mode and let the next CPE do the heavy lifting.

Indeed, the next CPE might be someth= ing like a "home access &=A0cloud =A0controller" (HACC) that = manages some =A0shared resources (storage, printing, fax gateway, scanners,= cameras, VoIP gateways, Media Devices, Gaming Devices, etc) and it also wi= ll take on the role of overall network device and user management.=A0

We have been designing a pseudo-interface to just such = a hypothetical device as a means of conceptualizing how this might work for= home users - this downstream CPE device falls somewhere in between a NAS, = A Media Center, a Firewall and a Router, and might even toss in Parental Co= ntrols. It's kind of the logical evolution of things, and we see this a= s being a critical concept in the=A0successful=A0deployment of IPv6 to the = home.=A0
--0016e64c1ab4ecc905046f4dae32-- From jhw@apple.com Wed Jul 22 12:36:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D493A6A99 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:36:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.982 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.982 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.617, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QtE5rO8HWx77 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592523A681D for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.apple.com (relay12.apple.com [17.128.113.53]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D556E5B184 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:35:09 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807135-b7b69ae000004d3d-01-4a6769edf200 Received: from il0602a-dhcp37.apple.com (il0602a-dhcp37.apple.com [17.206.23.165]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id DA.56.19773.DE9676A4; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1071.1) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:35:08 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com> References: To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1071.1) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:36:30 -0000 On Jul 22, 2009, at 05:58, Livingood, Jason wrote: > > For your review, comment, changes... > > =95 Thoughts on the scope of a draft charter =96 how broad or = narrow =20 > should it be? My concern is that I want it to be pretty narrow. Here are the items =20= I believe MUST be on the agenda: - Zeroconf issues; - Security issues; - IPv6 and DHCPv6 issues; - DNS issues. Additional items that I believe to be OPTIONAL, i.e. only if schedule =20= permits: - ECN issues; - Diffserv issues; - Multicast issues. Other items that I plan to argue vigorously SHOULD NOT be our concern: - Provider management issues, including firmware update and split =20 management; - Sub-ip layer issues, including directed multicast links; - Any *non*-zeroconf prefix sub-delegation schemes. [!!!] -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Wed Jul 22 13:30:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE1D3A6900; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:30:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Fh1VEZ4RFdV; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.nominet.org.uk (mx3.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060E13A68A7; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:30:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=qRnSsqoqB1W0cAhlBzdb2WbtyppyXQq73i9+w2JqSAs3BDEtlvNW23rc qHq7bbYITaa90qjdwFZlciJElKoUukenXB6skNxRRxwMFsjmaU+K19dAm oVRHXTSpfw5yyjk; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1248294642; x=1279830642; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[home gate]=20Bar=20BoF=20Draft=20Topics|Date:=20Wed,=2022=20Ju l=202009=2021:27:52=20+0100|Message-ID:=20|To:=20james=20woodyatt=20|Cc:=20homegat e@ietf.org,=0D=0A=09homegate-bounces@ietf.org |MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8 139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com>|References:=20=20<15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687- 8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com>; bh=cBPKeiH5nhbrhms9/ysqAOBzA+2flzfSX1MVxViQWj8=; b=GUIMb/0wnD/LSv1t90IgyA0+Itoq61SQp8Wfoivc+uCiIyFqoWi5955s M8Z3SbI75C+uXeLza6vx3YdWkd3VfDlhI5GwRikSmRvUreyJZGW96LryD GpIc8S4nckiJBcb; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,248,1246834800"; d="scan'208";a="16025961" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2009 21:27:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: <15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com> References: <15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com> To: james woodyatt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:27:52 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 22/07/2009 09:27:59 PM, Serialize complete at 22/07/2009 09:27:59 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 007069C5802575FB_=" Cc: homegate-bounces@ietf.org, homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:30:42 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 007069C5802575FB_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > My concern is that I want it to be pretty narrow. Here are the items > I believe MUST be on the agenda: > > - Zeroconf issues; > - Security issues; > - IPv6 and DHCPv6 issues; > - DNS issues. > > Additional items that I believe to be OPTIONAL, i.e. only if schedule > permits: > > - ECN issues; > - Diffserv issues; > - Multicast issues. > > Other items that I plan to argue vigorously SHOULD NOT be our concern: > > - Provider management issues, including firmware update and split > management; > - Sub-ip layer issues, including directed multicast links; > - Any *non*-zeroconf prefix sub-delegation schemes. [!!!] +1, fully in agreement, particularly to the list of stuff that James suggests should be off-charter. As protocol folks, we should be concentrating on protocol level issues, not advising on how to write provisioning / management GUIs. Ray -- Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211 --=_alternative 007069C5802575FB_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> My concern is that I want it to be pretty narrow.  Here are the items  
> I believe MUST be on the agenda:
>
>    - Zeroconf issues;
>    - Security issues;
>    - IPv6 and DHCPv6 issues;
>    - DNS issues.
>
> Additional items that I believe to be OPTIONAL, i.e. only if schedule  
> permits:
>
>    - ECN issues;
>    - Diffserv issues;
>    - Multicast issues.
>
> Other items that I plan to argue vigorously SHOULD NOT be our concern:
>
>    - Provider management issues, including firmware update and split  
> management;
>    - Sub-ip layer issues, including directed multicast links;
>    - Any *non*-zeroconf prefix sub-delegation schemes. [!!!]

+1, fully in agreement, particularly to the list of stuff that James suggests should be off-charter.

As protocol folks, we should be concentrating on protocol level issues, not advising on how to write provisioning / management GUIs.

Ray

--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211


--=_alternative 007069C5802575FB_=-- From iljitsch@muada.com Wed Jul 22 13:39:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C863A6858; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:39:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.762 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.762 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.837, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IAw0WxDMsCEu; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5373A67FF; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.195] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6MKcRPd008949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:38:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: <0A23F381-89CE-4196-A294-66848974DAE3@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:38:34 +0200 References: <15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Cc: homegate-bounces@ietf.org, homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:39:52 -0000 On 22 jul 2009, at 22:27, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: > As protocol folks, we should be concentrating on protocol level > issues, not advising on how to write provisioning / management GUIs. The IETF is not just about protocols. We have tons of protocols, probably enough to make a home gateway do everything that it needs to do. What we don't have is an implicit (like in IPv4) or explicit understanding between the different parties involved (network operators, vendors, users) about how to deploy those protocols. Although we must always be on the ready to escape from ratholes poste haste, I don't think it's useful to start declaring all sorts of things off-topic in this meeting that is going to lead up to the meeting where we decide what to work on. If there's ever a time in the IETF where our reach should exceed our grasp it's during a bar bof. From wbeebee@cisco.com Wed Jul 22 14:04:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA1B3A6AA8; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:04:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.007 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.007 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.592, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3uDgGktClRme; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57233A6806; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEANsbZ0qrR7MV/2dsb2JhbAC5OIglkQ8FhA6BRA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,248,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="188733396" Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2009 21:03:57 +0000 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6ML3v8O010548; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:03:57 -0700 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6ML3qLJ029638; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:03:57 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.118]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:03:51 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:03:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0A23F381-89CE-4196-A294-66848974DAE3@muada.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics Thread-Index: AcoLDJcG60OFzoWwRniRxWPUBeYeJQAAstkw References: <15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com> <0A23F381-89CE-4196-A294-66848974DAE3@muada.com> From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2009 21:03:51.0311 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA1489F0:01CA0B0F] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=589; t=1248296637; x=1249160637; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=wbeebee@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Wes=20Beebee=20(wbeebee)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[homegate]=20Bar=20BoF=20Draft=20Topics |Sender:=20; bh=p4nny6F2jaZmSyNLtPaxeOK2F3AM9vleiD6p9OJ73Jo=; b=bI5eyzl4vGRaxpZvCYmmZPWdTIQIV5XORQLLilTVKp7sr6CVZe+f8mttnB 3Z8me6Q3QpkdfdRhzdF7hsQ2KgGz9x7GF3B7DJ0JOBQTIrk/+GnnPvEg9On4 /dqcyfG7ILwnnjgx+6tkoqzdgTohm5z27JgDq9FvicOHG9a6G4xmU=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=wbeebee@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Cc: homegate-bounces@ietf.org, homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:04:41 -0000 > The IETF is not just about protocols. We have tons of protocols, probably enough to make a home gateway do > everything that it needs to do. What we don't have is an implicit (like in IPv4) or explicit understanding > between the different parties involved (network operators, vendors, users) about how to deploy those protocols. +1=20 I think Homegate should primarily focus on the issues with deployment of protocols in a home router - and if we find a gap in our deployment model, then a protocol can be developed - but that may very well be a rare occurance. - Wes From martyf@gmail.com Wed Jul 22 14:07:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6959328C129; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:07:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DiiCpIRY7MHu; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f226.google.com (mail-ew0-f226.google.com [209.85.219.226]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55E73A6BA9; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ewy26 with SMTP id 26so545944ewy.37 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=o9fT3dZQHucLmWlHHB7Y8NCREIKz2KTRvKIO1Tq/ojg=; b=EQK/d/jhAfr3USx7H6aNRwbFTGSCYxIVHf9Sh7ccU2DZugzBgjauGptKXxVanKapdc /ByvtsG1cSC3jefEYc7vtncUfBjz2flmU/jDhUhQJLB9PXP6jAxm7Z7Bhh2JTtXBBsXz P+7wjPYNmIIXGC0AT/jsRlD/v4fKluuyITdps= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=cgRVI9IxS2kQuo9JUFvnfTPVAJamV/KGPMEk7srsvoKZlMpelV7Y/t5MkXo+dbRpFd cEhgtLka14QX4mrXh46xpYags9Wr0BaeDg5zQaBKoc0CJUcWq95F1kIDP/5MxplmOPZ/ n0Ziec5vV6foO/4dbxHetrWPmhXFBoMKqyGq0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.3.206 with SMTP id 56mr386270weh.99.1248296737761; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0A23F381-89CE-4196-A294-66848974DAE3@muada.com> References: <15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com> <0A23F381-89CE-4196-A294-66848974DAE3@muada.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:05:37 -0400 Message-ID: <6eae86940907221405t69cdc1abp31d3b004ac84940b@mail.gmail.com> From: Martin Focazio To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364d2b29a0e959046f51bb2f Cc: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, homegate-bounces@ietf.org, homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:07:28 -0000 --0016364d2b29a0e959046f51bb2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 22 jul 2009, at 22:27, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: > > > The IETF is not just about protocols. We have tons of protocols, probably > enough to make a home gateway do everything that it needs to do. What we > don't have is an implicit (like in IPv4) or explicit understanding between > the different parties involved (network operators, vendors, users) about how > to deploy those protocols. > Thanks Iljitsch - to clarify - yes, I understand that this is a protocol level discussion. All I ask is that you all consider what a protocol means to the end user and usability and that as you gather to think about deep deep, complicated things, you all keep somewhere in your minds the examples of the successful protocols and practices that brought IPv4 to the awesome, incredibly successful and really fascinating point where it's outgrown itself. Of course, I am not proposing designing a GUI for a router as your mission. I am thinking, though how things like DHCP - and dare I say it - NAT actually made things fairly easy for the home network setup. So when zeroconf and security bubble up to the top of the discussion list, consider the "competitive set" of what these protocols will have - which is to say the protocols and practices and ease of use we have now. Again, I'm a UX guy, and I'm talking to engineers. I think that there needs to be a bridge here at least conceptually early on, lest IPv6 becomes the next x.400 over OSI vs SMTP over TCP/IP situation with IPv6 turning into some sort of a backhaul protocol that never quite makes it into the home. Home networks - and by extension home gateways - will outnumber business applications by 20 to 1. It's an important time to be thinking about the current user experience of managing a home network, the transitional experience to get to IPv6 and ultimately, the pure IPv6 experience. Thanks again for your time in putting this event together. --0016364d2b29a0e959046f51bb2f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Iljitsch van Be= ijnum <iljitsch@= muada.com> wrote:
On 22 jul 2009, at 22:27, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:
<= /blockquote>
=A0

The IETF is not just about protocols. We have tons of protocols, probably e= nough to make a home gateway do everything that it needs to do. What we don= 't have is an implicit (like in IPv4) or explicit understanding between= the different parties involved (network operators, vendors, users) about h= ow to deploy those protocols.


Thanks=A0Iljitsch - to clarify -= yes, I understand that this is a protocol level discussion. All I ask is t= hat you all consider what a protocol means to the end user and usability an= d that as you gather to think about deep deep, complicated things, you all = keep somewhere in your minds the examples of the successful protocols and p= ractices that brought IPv4 to the awesome, incredibly successful and really= fascinating point where it's outgrown itself. Of course, I am not prop= osing designing a GUI for a router as your mission.=A0

I am thinking, though how things like DHCP - and dare I= say it - NAT actually made things fairly easy for the home network setup. = So when zeroconf and security bubble up to the top of the discussion list, = consider the "competitive set" of what these protocols will have = - which is to say the protocols and practices and ease of use we have now.= =A0

Again, I'm a UX guy, and I'm talking to enginee= rs. I think that there needs to be a bridge here at least conceptually earl= y on, =A0lest IPv6 becomes the next x.400 over OSI vs SMTP over TCP/IP =A0s= ituation with IPv6 turning into some sort of a backhaul protocol that never= quite makes it into the home.=A0

Home networks - and by extension home gateways - will o= utnumber business applications by 20 to 1. It's an important time to be= thinking about the current user experience of managing a home network, the= transitional experience to get to IPv6 and ultimately, the pure IPv6 exper= ience.=A0

Thanks again for your time in putting this event togeth= er.=A0


--0016364d2b29a0e959046f51bb2f-- From kirk.erichsen@twcable.com Wed Jul 22 14:09:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F79F28C12F; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:09:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NzHTxU-k-6yD; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pblpas01.twcable.com (pblpas01.twcable.com [204.235.121.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AC73A694D; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:09:40 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.157.247.213 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,248,1246852800"; d="scan'208";a="435933819" Received: from unknown (HELO prvpmailconn3.corp.twcable.com) ([10.157.247.213]) by pblpas01.twcable.com with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2009 17:08:43 -0400 Received: from PRVPVSMAIL10.corp.twcable.com ([10.157.194.199]) by prvpmailconn3.corp.twcable.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:43 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:05:29 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics Thread-Index: AcoLDJcG60OFzoWwRniRxWPUBeYeJQAAstkwAAAwg3M= References: <15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com><0A23F381-89CE-4196-A294-66848974DAE3@muada.com> From: "Erichsen, Kirk" To: "Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)" , "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2009 21:08:43.0748 (UTC) FILETIME=[9862E240:01CA0B10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: homegate-bounces@ietf.org, homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:09:41 -0000 +2 =20 I concur. I think we have the ingredients to define a gateway with existing= protocols (or late drafts of protocols). Product specs within specific ser= vice providers/MSOs may go above and beyond what ends up being defined, but= that's normal as it reflects somewhat different business models. =20 Regards, =20 -KE ________________________________ From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Wes Beebee (wbeebee) Sent: Wed 7/22/2009 3:03 PM To: Iljitsch van Beijnum; Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Cc: homegate-bounces@ietf.org; homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics > The IETF is not just about protocols. We have tons of protocols, probably enough to make a home gateway do > everything that it needs to do. What we don't have is an implicit (like in IPv4) or explicit understanding > between the different parties involved (network operators, vendors, users) about how to deploy those protocols. +1 I think Homegate should primarily focus on the issues with deployment of protocols in a home router - and if we find a gap in our deployment model, then a protocol can be developed - but that may very well be a rare occurance. - Wes _______________________________________________ homegate mailing list homegate@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Wed Jul 22 15:57:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429173A6B12 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yUEq59iuXtB2 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nominet.org.uk (mx4.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D195F3A6900 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:57:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=TN79k4xl0kABLk5qaHUlXeg5UpGaorQId/4ho91m3DZLCeUKsGw9G73s 5esSl05e3DvkuuumB1nr0/dbxZbzBb1PcSV4cme34csy+rk/56AewKRih HvomVGJvoyW9MVU; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1248303469; x=1279839469; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20RE:=20[home gate]=20Bar=20BoF=20Draft=20Topics|Date:=20Wed,=2022=20Ju l=202009=2023:50:18=20+0100|Message-ID:=20|To:=20"Erichsen,=20Kirk"=20 |Cc:=20homegate@ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To: =20|References:=20<15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE4 18A4F@apple.com><0A23F381-89CE-4196-A294 -66848974DAE3@muada.com>=20=20; bh=FPxv7Lq1G4+1uydB9ZAElg6cvYMHQEzJX+TXVwmJn4c=; b=md27ST2ePcPHDRwfu6c7IBeohduzHLq2H09bummPJ6m6jrKmtv94QM7y o3BhNwqCLqU+cN6kWusRbfupfiY6I+CzTPQvg12Ed5HgCnkqAfkc8CsuX uJlOUJ6UW94iJaU; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,248,1246834800"; d="scan'208";a="11659138" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2009 23:50:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <15F1DDA5-F9A5-4687-8139-08A8EE418A4F@apple.com><0A23F381-89CE-4196-A294-66848974DAE3@muada.com> To: "Erichsen, Kirk" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:50:18 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 22/07/2009 11:50:23 PM, Serialize complete at 22/07/2009 11:50:23 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 007D74E0802575FB_=" Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Draft Topics X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:57:50 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 007D74E0802575FB_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > I concur. I think we have the ingredients to define a gateway with > existing protocols (or late drafts of protocols). That's sort of my point. I'm much keener to see manufacturers build equipment that conforms to the protocols we have (and does so completely) than in trying to come up with some whizz-bang new standard and/or protocol for doing firmware updates. See for example my draft-dnsext-dnsproxy, which is currently in the RFC Editor's Queue. By the way, FWIW, I think I've seen at least four different ways to update a home gateway's firmware over IP, all of which use IETF-documented protocols: - TFTP - FTP - HTTP upload - HTTP download I don't think it's our place, though, to recommend for or against any of these, since they all work, albeit with varying degrees of simplicity. Vendors that happen to choose a poor method will learn the error of their ways via commercial pressure (i.e. bad reviews). IMHO, we should let the Broadband Forum et al worry about management and provisioning - as you say there's every chance that the underlying protocols they'll need already exist. We can then concentrate on documenting and resolving real interoperability problems that affect end-users of the device while it's in service. Ray --=_alternative 007D74E0802575FB_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"  
> I concur. I think we have the ingredients to define a gateway with
> existing protocols (or late drafts of protocols).


That's sort of my point.

I'm much keener to see manufacturers build equipment that conforms to the protocols we have (and does so completely) than in trying to come up with some whizz-bang new standard and/or protocol for doing firmware updates.

See for example my draft-dnsext-dnsproxy, which is currently in the RFC Editor's Queue.

By the way, FWIW, I think I've seen at least four different ways to update a home gateway's firmware over IP, all of which use IETF-documented protocols:

- TFTP
- FTP
- HTTP upload
- HTTP download

I don't think it's our place, though, to recommend for or against any of these, since they all work, albeit with varying degrees of simplicity.  Vendors that happen to choose a poor method will learn the error of their ways via commercial pressure (i.e. bad reviews).

IMHO, we should let the Broadband Forum et al worry about management and provisioning - as you say there's every chance that the underlying protocols they'll need already exist.

We can then concentrate on documenting and resolving real interoperability problems that affect end-users of the device while it's in service.

Ray
--=_alternative 007D74E0802575FB_=-- From tao.wan@tilgin.com Thu Jul 23 07:25:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796063A6855 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:25:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.759 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.759 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YPsQSdRdyA31 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.telecomputing.se (mx1.telecomputing.se [84.17.192.160]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570493A6A38 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:25:43 -0700 (PDT) X-AttachmentFileNames: None X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqEBAC8PaEqsGQsW/2dsb2JhbAAIgiIq0ACEDQU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,255,1246831200"; d="scan'208,217";a="19918375" Received: from z11ar1ce1cn2.z11.tconet.net (HELO Z11AR1CE1VS1.z11.tconet.net) ([172.25.11.22]) by mx1.telecomputing.se with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2009 16:24:37 +0200 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA0BA1.50D892A4" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:24:35 +0200 Message-ID: <180DEFC4530E0C4B91C6EA19A8192E49017DB0BD@Z11AR1CE1VS1.z11.tconet.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: About the Broadband Home Gateway[HomeGate] BoF proposal in IETF 75 Thread-Index: AcoLoU3KWb4aBuTuSsKqRc9PyOjRfw== From: "Tao Wan" To: Subject: [homegate] About the Broadband Home Gateway[HomeGate] BoF proposal in IETF 75 X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:32:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA0BA1.50D892A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 =20 I am wondering whether there is a BOF session for the Broadband Home Gateway[HomeGate] in IETF 75.=20 =20 -Tao Wan =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA0BA1.50D892A4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

I am wondering whether there is  a BOF session = for the Broadband Home Gateway[HomeGate] in  IETF 75.

 

-Tao Wan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CA0BA1.50D892A4-- From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Thu Jul 23 09:09:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8E53A6856 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.138 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.138 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.461, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f04rDRv0dFmq for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5846628C0D0 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n6NG9UP7088301 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:09:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <180DEFC4530E0C4B91C6EA19A8192E49017DB0BD@Z11AR1CE1VS1.z11.tconet.net> References: <180DEFC4530E0C4B91C6EA19A8192E49017DB0BD@Z11AR1CE1VS1.z11.tconet.net> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:09:29 -0700 To: "Tao Wan" , From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: [homegate] About the Broadband Home Gateway[HomeGate] BoF proposal in IETF 75 X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:09:36 -0000 At 4:24 PM +0200 7/23/09, Tao Wan wrote: >I am wondering whether there is a BOF session for the Broadband Home Gateway[HomeGate] in IETF 75. There is not an official BoF meeting. We are trying to schedule an informal meeting ("bar BoF") on Monday night. That's what the recent messages are about. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Fri Jul 24 13:59:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533F33A6A53 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.301 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20c3U8lDy-dD for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C66E3A6809 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([10.52.116.31]) by paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-TDCH7.65830677; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:58:43 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP02.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:58:43 -0400 Received: from 147.191.227.143 ([147.191.227.143]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:58:43 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.20.0.090605 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:58:41 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Bar BoF Update - Need Feedback on Venue / Detailed Logistical Choices Thread-Index: AcoMoYXykAc+X4gi/U2yIizenABhqA== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3331299521_1273429" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2009 20:58:43.0844 (UTC) FILETIME=[87A44C40:01CA0CA1] Subject: [homegate] Bar BoF Update - Need Feedback on Venue / Detailed Logistical Choices X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:59:23 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3331299521_1273429 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Okay, we have 26 people who have RSVP=B9d so far, so my guess is we will have between 25 and 30 people total on Monday evening. We have, in my view, 4 options. I would like to ask for your feedback so w= e can make a final decision soon (I am flying Saturday over to Sunday morning)! :-) Option 1: Eat before 8:00pm local time =AD or bring your own takeout dinner with you =AD and we get a meeting room at the IETF venue. This is a regular meeting room and allows for more structured discussion. Downside is no bar= , but I can check to see if I can order some drinks to have them delivered. Option 2: Same as #1, but start at 9:00pm or 9:30pm, so that people have absolutely eaten dinner beforehand. Option 3: I book a meeting room at my hotel next to the train station (this one =AD holds 30 -=20 http://www.nordiclighthotel.se/en/Experience-the-hotel/Photo-gallery2/) at 8:00pm or 8:30pm or 9:00pm and everyone chips in US$30 (225SEK) or so for a little bit of light food and/or a drink or two =8B or brings their own food o= r eats beforehand. =20 Option 4: We meet around 8:30pm or 9:00pm at a bar, such as the Glenfiddich Warehouse (http://www.gfw68.com/) or a similar establishment. The benefits here are that you can easily order some pub food =AD and obviously obtain bee= r too. The downside is that it will be a somewhat loud bar, which means conducive primarily to small groups of informal conversation vs. more structured discussion. Thanks Jason --B_3331299521_1273429 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Bar BoF Update - Need Feedback on Venue / Detailed Logistical Choice= s Okay, we have 26 people who have RSVP’d so far, so my guess is we wi= ll have between 25 and 30 people total on Monday evening.

We have, in my view, 4 options.  I would like to ask for your feedback= so we can make a final decision soon (I am flying Saturday over to Sunday m= orning)!  :-)

Option 1: Eat before 8:00pm local time – or bring your own tak= eout dinner with you – and we get a meeting room at the IETF venue. &n= bsp;This is a regular meeting room and allows for more structured discussion= .  Downside is no bar, but I can check to see if I can order some drink= s to have them delivered.

Option 2: Same as #1, but start at 9:00pm or 9:30pm, so that people = have absolutely eaten dinner beforehand.

Option 3: I book a meeting room at my hotel next to the train statio= n (this one – holds 30 - http://www.nordiclighthotel.se/en/Experi= ence-the-hotel/Photo-gallery2/) at 8:00pm or 8:30pm or 9:00pm and everyo= ne chips in US$30 (225SEK) or so for a little bit of light food and/or a dri= nk or two — or brings their own food or eats beforehand.  

Option 4: We meet around 8:30pm or 9:00pm at a bar, such as the Glen= fiddich Warehouse (http://www.gfw68.com/= ) or a similar establishment.  The benefits here are that you can easil= y order some pub food – and obviously obtain beer too.  The downs= ide is that it will be a somewhat loud bar, which means conducive primarily = to small groups of informal conversation vs. more structured discussion.

Thanks
Jason
--B_3331299521_1273429-- From iljitsch@muada.com Fri Jul 24 14:20:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D243A6B2C for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:20:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.971 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.971 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.628, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rBKh1UADLw6K for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4293A6AB0 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.4] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6OLKISJ027929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 24 Jul 2009 23:20:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: <909E98C8-B3DB-41B4-BCE0-7AB46FF61CFB@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: "Livingood, Jason" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 23:20:27 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Update - Need Feedback on Venue / Detailed Logistical Choices X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:20:36 -0000 On 24 jul 2009, at 22:58, Livingood, Jason wrote: > We have, in my view, 4 options. I would like to ask for your > feedback so we > can make a final decision soon (I am flying Saturday over to Sunday > morning)! :-) What about having something structured for an hour at the IETF venue, then find food and maybe continue in smaller groups? 20:30 is still early enough to eat especially for those of us who flew in from the west--at least, I think so. Anyone know what time the Swedes tend to eat? From townsley@cisco.com Fri Jul 24 15:15:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD6A3A69CD for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:15:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8spoWP-UUI1g for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC14E3A679C for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:15:29 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAMvOaUqrR7O6/2dsb2JhbAC8QoglkEoFhA2BSA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,266,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="218934189" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2009 22:15:03 +0000 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6OMF3df020085; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:15:03 -0700 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6OMF2vo023036; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:15:03 GMT Received: from xfe-ams-332.cisco.com ([144.254.231.73]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:15:02 +0200 Received: from ams-townsley-8713.cisco.com ([10.55.233.228]) by xfe-ams-332.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:15:01 +0200 Message-ID: <4A6A325E.4010901@cisco.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:14:54 +0200 From: Mark Townsley User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Macintosh/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Livingood, Jason" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2009 22:15:01.0681 (UTC) FILETIME=[303ECA10:01CA0CAC] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1870; t=1248473703; x=1249337703; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=townsley@cisco.com; z=From:=20Mark=20Townsley=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Bar=20BoF=20Update=20-=20N eed=20Feedback=20on=20Venue=20/=20Detailed=0A=20Logistical=2 0Choices |Sender:=20; bh=Enmgr1CGi0lA118lHqrJ5K7BYwSIltTd6L/c9ry+yuQ=; b=dZHT/XgZckVfJAOT7muidXBWqHp9GQSmxMPEm6UYncfyzSQXjp5fUlvpWW tlkK6faUkL1rbT5GUC/6gIecEn+I5kgoGj2DeFIrp4OnCSgPyNTkU3E6mGRB mWHFzXWmK6; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=townsley@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Update - Need Feedback on Venue / Detailed Logistical Choices X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:15:31 -0000 Livingood, Jason wrote: > Okay, we have 26 people who have RSVP’d so far, so my guess is we will > have between 25 and 30 people total on Monday evening. > > We have, in my view, 4 options. I would like to ask for your feedback > so we can make a final decision soon (I am flying Saturday over to > Sunday morning)! :-) > > *Option 1: *Eat before 8:00pm local time – or bring your own takeout > dinner with you – and we get a meeting room at the IETF venue. This is > a regular meeting room and allows for more structured discussion. > Downside is no bar, but I can check to see if I can order some drinks > to have them delivered. > > *Option 2: *Same as #1, but start at 9:00pm or 9:30pm, so that people > have absolutely eaten dinner beforehand. > > *Option 3: *I book a meeting room at my hotel next to the train > station (this one – holds 30 - > http://www.nordiclighthotel.se/en/Experience-the-hotel/Photo-gallery2/) > at 8:00pm or 8:30pm or 9:00pm and everyone chips in US$30 (225SEK) or > so for a little bit of light food and/or a drink or two — or brings > their own food or eats beforehand. > > *Option 4: *We meet around 8:30pm or 9:00pm at a bar, such as the > Glenfiddich Warehouse (http://www.gfw68.com/) or a similar > establishment. The benefits here are that you can easily order some > pub food – and obviously obtain beer too. The downside is that it will > be a somewhat loud bar, which means conducive primarily to small > groups of informal conversation vs. more structured discussion. Option 4 seems to resemble "bar-bof" the most. - Mark > > Thanks > Jason > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > From mglt.ietf@gmail.com Sat Jul 25 03:34:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6983A683A for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 03:34:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RMmwtrGo73Eb for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 03:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f193.google.com (mail-yx0-f193.google.com [209.85.210.193]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838903A67F9 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 03:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe31 with SMTP id 31so538348yxe.31 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 03:33:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=g3boRjI/bkHlTLcaQlk//pv8KGkRfdRTKKSZprut3is=; b=RZsa6acjnVuaSNEIXKsMY1FUFrtE/L+2uoVW492FKx7woLE8Bies0KHAynhXgpmSqq 1lNazg04xkXqVi8XaR1T+EBT2Y4jnEVGqfcvmKBXASD6k8+6TfKEfFVnGZ5+XrOirDp5 tVoXoUorK6EKZaobhfZjHnJDxJWtSwD0B5olk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=kMy3NvLkwzBHYEgJrXIyhICNcaawAdIrRe6VMyBPKAkXjOCB2sHgP4MlnwP+EqSJtC qAUBtF9UoX5/StZETriT+8zyLKAvxti7XwLNl4xRMQi7GBjJ/xfMpmu/YUJXHisph+18 FMB0BlRiJFoZnlRM2afBvoEEJMG2ViwBTkK2w= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.54.6 with SMTP id c6mr3824601aga.35.1248518036502; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 03:33:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4A6A325E.4010901@cisco.com> References: <4A6A325E.4010901@cisco.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:33:56 +0200 Message-ID: <51eafbcb0907250333v10ec10e9m976a285ff4663f35@mail.gmail.com> From: Daniel Migault To: "Livingood, Jason" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016361643450fb84c046f8542be Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Update - Need Feedback on Venue / Detailed Logistical Choices X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:34:03 -0000 --0016361643450fb84c046f8542be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my preference goes for option 2 or 4. Regards, Daniel -- Daniel Migault Orange Labs -- Security +33 6 70 72 69 58 --0016361643450fb84c046f8542be Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my preference goes for option 2 or 4.
Regards,
Daniel

--
Daniel Migault
Orange Labs -- Security
+33 6 70 72 69 58
--0016361643450fb84c046f8542be-- From tao.wan@tilgin.com Sun Jul 26 05:19:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85CF3A6403 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 05:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TzvKl1gcv8de for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 05:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.telecomputing.se (mx1.telecomputing.se [84.17.192.160]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9DF3A67F8 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 05:19:26 -0700 (PDT) X-AttachmentFileNames: None X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAJPma0qsGQsW/2dsb2JhbADMfYQNBYFI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,271,1246831200"; d="scan'208";a="20124717" Received: from z11ar1ce1cn2.z11.tconet.net (HELO Z11AR1CE1VS1.z11.tconet.net) ([172.25.11.22]) by mx1.telecomputing.se with ESMTP; 26 Jul 2009 14:19:24 +0200 Received: from heowa.telecomputing.se ([172.25.11.52]) by Z11AR1CE1VS1.z11.tconet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:19:24 +0200 Received: from [130.129.20.55] ([130.129.20.55]) by heowa.telecomputing.se over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:19:23 +0200 Message-ID: <4A6C49BD.4000508@tilgin.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:19:09 +0200 From: Tao Wan User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homegate@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2009 12:19:23.0407 (UTC) FILETIME=[4F6671F0:01CA0DEB] Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Update - Need Feedback on Venue / Detailed Logistical Choices X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:19:28 -0000 My vote goes for Option 2 and 4. Regards, Tao Wan Tilgin AB - http://www.tilgin.com/ Livingood, Jason wrote: > Okay, we have 26 people who have RSVP’d so far, so my guess is we will > have between 25 and 30 people total on Monday evening. > > We have, in my view, 4 options. I would like to ask for your feedback > so we can make a final decision soon (I am flying Saturday over to > Sunday morning)! :-) > > *Option 1: *Eat before 8:00pm local time – or bring your own takeout > dinner with you – and we get a meeting room at the IETF venue. This is > a regular meeting room and allows for more structured discussion. > Downside is no bar, but I can check to see if I can order some drinks > to have them delivered. > > *Option 2: *Same as #1, but start at 9:00pm or 9:30pm, so that people > have absolutely eaten dinner beforehand. > > *Option 3: *I book a meeting room at my hotel next to the train > station (this one – holds 30 - > http://www.nordiclighthotel.se/en/Experience-the-hotel/Photo-gallery2/) > at 8:00pm or 8:30pm or 9:00pm and everyone chips in US$30 (225SEK) or > so for a little bit of light food and/or a drink or two — or brings > their own food or eats beforehand. > > *Option 4: *We meet around 8:30pm or 9:00pm at a bar, such as the > Glenfiddich Warehouse (http://www.gfw68.com/) or a similar > establishment. The benefits here are that you can easily order some > pub food – and obviously obtain beer too. The downside is that it will > be a somewhat loud bar, which means conducive primarily to small > groups of informal conversation vs. more structured discussion. > > Thanks > Jason > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Sun Jul 26 13:17:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032723A69A9 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:17:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.001 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F7JwxFYAwAFX for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF4C3A6914 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([10.52.116.30]) by paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-TDCH7.65892617; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:16:56 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP01.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:16:57 -0400 Received: from 198.137.252.126 ([198.137.252.126]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([198.137.252.76]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:16:57 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.20.0.090605 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:16:54 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Bar BoF Details Thread-Index: AcoOLgR7ubL7Z3AbGEuGtH+VJd2HmA== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3331469815_248767" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2009 20:16:57.0124 (UTC) FILETIME=[0658AE40:01CA0E2E] Subject: [homegate] Bar BoF Details X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:17:21 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3331469815_248767 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Our Bar BoF / Informal BoF begins at 8:00pm Monday evening, in the IETF meeting venue, at 8:00pm sharp. It will be in a room called =B3Lilla Teatern,=B2 and you will see a sign for it as soon as you enter the main lobb= y of the conference center. You can come in as early as 7:40pm (another group is using it until then). Unfortunately, the venue will NOT allow us to bring in food from the outside. Thus, please either try to grab a bite to eat beforehand, or eat something at the bar afterwards. We will limit the meeting to roughly 60 minutes, after which we will adjour= n to a nearby bar for refreshments (and food, as needed). Assuming the group can stay reasonably together and makes it to the same bar, I=B9ll buy the first round for everyone. Please come prepared with bar suggestions in the very local area, as this is one of the agenda items! I think it=B9d be great if we could determine exactly what should be in-scope for the group in this meeting. So one exercise might be to list what we definitely want to do, what we do NOT want to do, and what we=B9d like to do at some point but can=B9t focus on now. Loose agenda for this informal meeting: * Thoughts on the scope of a draft charter =AD how broad or narrow should it be? General discussion. Attempt to categorize as noted above. (In no particular order below.) >> * DNSSEC and DNS Proxy concerns >> * IPv6 and DHCPv6 concerns >> * ECN and RED concerns >> * Multicast functionality/performance - MLD, IGMP proxying, multicast/un= icast >> conversion.=20 >> * Security concerns >> * Firmware update concerns >> * Zero-config issues (per James Woodyatt) >> * Questions over management of devices (and split management) >> * Concerns over cascading of devices / multiple subnets (per Iljitsch va= n >> Beijnum) * What bar to go to now?? =A0=A0=A0 =A0 oOOOOOo =A0 =A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0 o Oo =A0 // |=A0o =A0=A0=A0 |o =A0=A0|| | =A0=A0=A0o=A0 o | =A0=A0=A0 \\|=A0=A0o=A0 o | | o | =A0=A0=A0 =A0 +------------+ Regards Jason --B_3331469815_248767 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Bar BoF Details Our Bar BoF / Informal BoF begins at 8:00pm Monday evening, in the IETF me= eting venue, at 8:00pm sharp.  It will be in a room called “Lilla= Teatern,” and you will see a sign for it as soon as you enter the mai= n lobby of the conference center.

You can come in as early as 7:40pm (another group is using it until then). =  Unfortunately, the venue will NOT allow us to bring in food from the o= utside.  Thus, please either try to grab a bite to eat beforehand, or e= at something at the bar afterwards.

We will limit the meeting to roughly 60 minutes, after which we will adjour= n to a nearby bar for refreshments (and food, as needed).  Assuming the= group can stay reasonably together and makes it to the same bar, I’ll= buy the first round for everyone.  Please come prepared with bar sugge= stions in the very local area, as this is one of the agenda items!

I think it’d be great if we could determine exactly what should be in= -scope for the group in this meeting.  So one exercise might be to list= what we definitely want to do, what we do NOT want to do, and what we’= ;d like to do at some point but can’t focus on now.

Loose agenda for this informal meeting:
  • Thoughts on the scope of a draft charter – how= broad or narrow should it be?  General discussion.  Attempt to ca= tegorize as noted above.  
         =             &nbs= p; (In no particular order below.)
      • DNSSEC and DNS Proxy concerns=20
      • IPv6 and DHCPv6 concerns=20
      • ECN and RED concerns=20
      • Multicast functionality/performance - MLD, IGMP proxying= , multicast/unicast conversion.=20
      • Security concerns=20
      • Firmware update concerns=20
      • Zero-config issues (per James Woodyatt)
      • Questions over management of devices (and split manageme= nt)
      • Concerns over cascading of devices / multiple subnets (p= er Iljitsch van Beijnum)
  • What bar to go to now??

=A0=A0=A0 =A0  oOOOOOo
=A0 =A0=A0   |=A0=A0=A0   o       &nb= sp;Oo
=A0  // |=A0o =A0=A0=A0         |o
=A0=A0||  | =A0=A0=A0o=A0     o |
=A0=A0=A0 \\|=A0=A0o=A0     o    |
        |     o=         |
=A0=A0=A0  =A0  +------------+


Regards
Jason

--B_3331469815_248767-- From jmpolk@cisco.com Sun Jul 26 15:44:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6763A67E6 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:44:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.33 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkcRIJBVhshQ for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C2A3A67D7 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:44:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlwGAA55bEqrR7PD/2dsb2JhbACIR64qiCiNTQWEDQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,273,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="219300552" Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Jul 2009 22:44:36 +0000 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6QMiaf6006913 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:44:36 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6QMiaTh018689 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:44:36 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:44:35 -0700 Received: from jmpolk-wxp01.cisco.com ([10.89.9.91]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:44:33 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:44:16 -0500 To: homegate@ietf.org From: "James M. Polk" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2009 22:44:34.0717 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5E21CD0:01CA0E42] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2367; t=1248648276; x=1249512276; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22James=20M.=20Polk=22=20 |Subject:=20What's=20Homegate=20reeeeally=20going=20to=20ac complish? |Sender:=20; bh=wTEl09oprS9iaE7HA0N1eSIYPLOIxWz+hiR4iProzxo=; b=sAP6s35MiPFhnLuT45uU+ft/3F1PZnJpVuBjPjNiCN8hOPlGVPoltXkR6g qfA3Cd8Zw0+LnS5t28KS7ErhvqduFtX8/q2fdgfMkx8Pd1jPsTNe+UWy2j6+ oBoZMs5ISj; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=jmpolk@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Subject: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:44:35 -0000 Guys I'm seeing basic low-level stuff mentioned as "what this group ought to focus on", like v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP, DNSSEC, and other low level things -- that all have admittedly real issues wrt interoperability and adoption. What I'm not seeing, other than from James Woodyatt is what a user is going to be able to accomplish with something produced by this BOF (hopefully group soon, if things go well). The keys to that are interoperability, minimums of features per protocol written in a BCP where coders can implement a Homegate *thing* that is useful. But we cannot - even though most of us want to - forget how this Homegate *thing* is going to be used. It is the demarcation between the residential user and the SP (for the most part), right? Otherwise, what's it good for? Unfortunately (for some) - that means it has to be a Layer 7 box as well as everything else mentioned on the list so far. This most likely means it needs to be a audio/video SIP/RTSP/SDP server, call it a mini-SBC/keysystem lookin` *thing*, because if it's not, then it has to let all that traffic in so another Homegate *thing* CAN do this functionality. The idea of two boxes instead of one seems stupid when we all know those two are necessary for this to go anywhere. It also has to be a firewall that allows RTP in and out, and keeps the bad guys out. Someone brought up that is has to be a NAT. As much as I hate NATs, I think it has to be a NAT (or at least can be a NAT). All this doesn't mean we talk about all this tomorrow (all in 1 hour) - but we ought to acknowledge that this is part of what Homegate is to produce (*IF* this group becomes a WG). I think that is gonna mean that someone or some team eventually gets to decide which parts of SIP/RTSP/SDP are necessary for Homegate, meaning another BCP (*IF* this group becomes a WG). Now - the whole kitchen sink doesn't have to be in this *thing* this group produces (*IF* this group becomes a WG), but it needs to have a fair amount of function for the applications that are in use by residential users today, and out at least 5 years. Remember - it'll take at least 3 years to get the first RFC our of this group (*IF* this group becomes a WG). my 0.14986272 SEK (based on Friday's exchange rate) ;-) James From duncan_bees@telus.net Sun Jul 26 10:54:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827BA28C0E8 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:54:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PGWGn8HdfmUz for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound03.telus.net (outbound03.telus.net [199.185.220.222]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE463A67E5 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from edtnaa03.telusplanet.net ([154.5.56.124]) by priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.7.08.04.00 201-2186-134-20080326) with ESMTP id <20090726175428.ROAG25850.priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net@edtnaa03.telusplanet.net> for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:54:28 -0600 Received: from DuncansmallPC (d154-5-56-124.bchsia.telus.net [154.5.56.124]) by edtnaa03.telusplanet.net (BorderWare Security Platform) with ESMTP id 5A9E92E0E3C19DA7 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:54:27 -0600 (MDT) From: "Duncan Bees" To: Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:54:31 -0700 Message-ID: <00aa01ca0e1a$213ffa60$63bfef20$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AB_01CA0DDF.74E12260" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcoOGiD0ihhD3reNQvq5W7EF2UpCCA== Content-Language: en-ca X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:05:51 -0700 Subject: [homegate] Home Gateway Initiative thoughts on Homegate X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 04:17:39 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01CA0DDF.74E12260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have collected some thoughts/concerns about Homegate from within the HGI (Home Gateway Initiative). I won't be able to make the IETF meeting, and I don't believe anyone from HGI's Management Committee (MC) will be at the bar BOF, hence this note. The HGI represents more than 60 companies in the Home Gateway ecosystem and is led by the HGI Service Providers, who relay their concerns and requirements to the industry via the MC. HGI's Release 2 Residential Profile , HGI-RD001-R2, (http://www.homegatewayinitiative.org/publis/HGI_V1.01_Residential.pdf), describes the use cases and technical requirements for Home Gateways that support managed and unmanaged services. Overall, the HGI thinks that it could be useful for Homegate to address protocol gaps and issues, but only if they can't be addressed in existing groups. The following specific points are mostly about what not to do, (given that we haven't currently got a list of protocol deficiencies to put forward). * Because the HGI already does this, we don't see a need for Homegate to describe box-level requirements for Service Provider-Managed Home Gateways, including HGs sold in a retail model. . HGI thinks Homegate should not create new management models for Service-Provider-Managed Home Gateways. This is already done by Broadband Forum, and HGI closely cooperates with BBF on this. . The terminology of Home Gateways, as used by the HGI and commonly in the industry, is primarily a Home Gateway managed by a Broadband Service Provider. To avoid confusion, HGI would not recommend describing unmanaged routers (including those subtended from an HG) as Home Gateways. . The name Homegate is quite similar to Home Gateway Initiative, and if the group goes ahead, consideration could be given to finding a different name to avoid confusion. . QoS - A QoS architecture including requirements for classification, shaping, marking, congestion avoidance, etc. are detailed in HGI's HGI-RD001-R2. Also, see the HGI QoS white paper HGI-GD013-R2, (http://www.homegateway.org/publis/HGI-GD013-R2.pdf) As far as HGI is concerned, additional QoS mechanisms are un-needed, however any suggestions or points of clarification from Homegate would be welcomed. HGI doesn't see any need for Homegate to describe overall QoS requirements for managed Home Gateways. HGI suggests that any work on QoS by Homegate, for either managed Home Gateways or unmanaged Home Routers should consider the approach set out in HGI-GD013-R2. . IPv6 - An end-end broadband architecture incorporating IPv6 in Service Provider networks is being dealt with in BBF A&T group. HGI is cooperating with BBF, and dealing with IPv6 deployment implications on the Home Gateway. It isn't clear that Homegate would need to develop additional requirements here. . Multicast to Unicast Conversion - while HGI describes requirements for mcast to unicast conversion within the home network, (see requirements in HGI-RD001-R2), IETF standardisation of these techniques could be useful, possibly by Homegate. Thanks for reading and have fun at the bar J Best regards Duncan Bees Chief Technical & Business Officer, Home Gateway Initiative Vancouver, Canada duncan.bees@homegateway.org or duncan_bees@telus.net mobile +1.604.418.8997 skype: duncan.bees1 www.homegateway.org ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01CA0DDF.74E12260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hi All,

I have collected some thoughts/concerns about = Homegate from within the HGI (Home Gateway Initiative). I won’t be able to make = the IETF meeting, and I don’t believe anyone from HGI’s Management = Committee (MC) will be at the bar BOF, hence this note.

 

The HGI represents more than 60 companies in the = Home Gateway ecosystem and is led by the HGI Service Providers, who relay = their concerns and requirements to the industry via the MC.

HGI’s Release 2 Residential Profile , = HGI-RD001-R2, (http://www.homegatewayinitiative.org/publis/HGI_V1.01_Residential.p= df), describes the use cases and technical requirements for Home Gateways = that support managed and unmanaged services.

 

Overall, the HGI thinks that it could be useful for = Homegate to address protocol gaps and issues, but only if they can’t be = addressed in existing groups. The following specific points are mostly about what = not to do, (given that we haven’t currently got a list of protocol = deficiencies to put forward).

 

  • Because the HGI already does this, we don’t = see a need for Homegate to describe box-level requirements for Service Provider-Managed Home Gateways, including HGs sold in a retail = model.

·        HGI thinks Homegate should not create new management models for Service-Provider-Managed Home Gateways. This is = already done by Broadband Forum, and HGI closely cooperates with BBF on = this.

·        The terminology of Home Gateways, as used = by the HGI and commonly in the industry, is primarily a Home Gateway managed by = a Broadband Service Provider. To avoid confusion, HGI would not recommend = describing unmanaged routers (including those subtended from an HG) as Home = Gateways.

·        The name Homegate is quite similar to = Home Gateway Initiative, and if the group goes ahead, consideration could be = given to finding a different name to avoid confusion.

·        QoS – A QoS architecture = including requirements for classification, shaping, marking, congestion avoidance, etc. are = detailed in HGI’s HGI-RD001-R2. Also, see the HGI QoS white paper = HGI-GD013-R2, (http://www.ho= megateway.org/publis/HGI-GD013-R2.pdf)  As far as HGI is concerned, additional QoS mechanisms are un-needed, = however any suggestions or points of clarification from Homegate would be = welcomed. HGI doesn’t see any need for Homegate to describe overall QoS = requirements for managed Home Gateways. HGI suggests that any work on QoS by = Homegate, for either managed Home Gateways or unmanaged Home Routers should consider the = approach set out in HGI-GD013-R2.

·        IPv6 – An end-end broadband architecture incorporating IPv6 in Service Provider networks is being = dealt with in BBF A&T group.  HGI is cooperating with BBF, and = dealing with IPv6 deployment implications on the Home Gateway. It isn’t clear = that Homegate would need to develop additional requirements = here.

·        Multicast to Unicast Conversion  = - while HGI describes requirements for mcast to unicast conversion within the = home network, (see requirements in HGI-RD001-R2), IETF standardisation of = these techniques could be useful, possibly by Homegate.

Thanks for reading and have fun at the bar J

Best regards

 

Duncan = Bees

Chief Technical = & Business Officer, Home Gateway Initiative

Vancouver, Canada

duncan.bees@homegateway.org or

duncan_bees@telus.net

mobile = +1.604.418.8997

skype: = duncan.bees1

www.homegateway.org

=

 

------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01CA0DDF.74E12260-- From lars.eggert@nokia.com Sun Jul 26 23:15:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCFB3A6AAC for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.545 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.545 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30vdtWLWv-bo for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382613A6950 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:225:ff:fe45:eccf] ([IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:225:ff:fe45:eccf]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.fit.nokia.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6R6ErLu061164 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:54 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from lars.eggert@nokia.com) Message-Id: <55322294-8C1C-4139-B199-595C58B4FC5D@nokia.com> From: Lars Eggert To: homegate@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-86--214851490; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:14:47 +0200 References: <778EDAFC5D41EE4F8EEC6578787783A80436250B@CL01ESN05GTAMBE.rci.rogers.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.fit.nokia.com [IPv6:2001:2060:40:1::123]); Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:55 +0300 (EEST) Cc: Victor.Kuarsingh@rci.rogers.com Subject: [homegate] Fwd: [75attendees] Confirm Bar BoF location for Monday for HomeGate X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:15:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail-86--214851490 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-85--214851537 --Apple-Mail-85--214851537 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Redirecting this query to the HOMEGATE list. Begin forwarded message: > From: Victor Kuarsingh > Date: July 26, 2009 19:53:55 GMT+02:00 > To: "75attendees@ietf.org" <75attendees@ietf.org> > Subject: [75attendees] Confirm Bar BoF location for Monday for > HomeGate > > Gents, > > I just wanted to confirm the rendezvous point and time for the Bar > BoF tomorrow. > > thanks, > > Victor Kuarsingh > --Apple-Mail-85--214851537 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ATT00001.txt Content-Type: text/plain; x-unix-mode=0666; name="ATT00001.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This e-mail (and attachment(s)) is confidential, proprietary, may be = subject to copyright and legal privilege and no related rights are = waived. If you are not the intended recipient or its agent, any review, = dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail or any of its = content is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. 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Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:08:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BPxmo56zBbgb for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga03-in.huawei.com (usaga03-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.220]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5A43A6BF8 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga03-in [172.18.4.17]) by usaga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KNF00LQLL9DJG@usaga03-in.huawei.com> for homegate@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:08:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dhcp-16b3.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-16b3.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.179]) by usaga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KNF00HODL9BWE@usaga03-in.huawei.com> for homegate@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:08:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:07:58 +0800 From: Hongyu Li In-reply-to: To: "James M. Polk" Message-id: <4EBB893C-F665-43C2-93D8-25827629AA40@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=GB2312; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable References: Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:08:02 -0000 Hi James, My feeling for this BoF is it focuses on the transport part of and =20 HGW, as it is in the transport area. There are already several other =20 parties in industry, e.g. HGI and BBF, are working on device =20 requirements of HGW. Those are the places where what an HGW as a whole =20= box should look like. As for IETF, a place more for protocol, I don't =20= think it is our responsibility to define every aspect of a future HGW. Even if for application layer protocols, there are too many parties =20 are already working on it. Before we incorporate application layer =20 protocols or applications capabilities in an HGW we are going to =20 study, we need to clarify what are the specific worked related we need =20= to do here in this BoF. It is not valuable to repeat others' job or =20 just simply include them. Cheers, Hongyu =D4=DA 2009-7-27=A3=AC=C9=CF=CE=E76:44=A3=AC James M. Polk =D0=B4=B5=C0=A3= =BA > Guys > > I'm seeing basic low-level stuff mentioned as "what this group ought =20= > to focus on", like v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP, DNSSEC, and =20 > other low level things -- that all have admittedly real issues wrt =20 > interoperability and adoption. > > What I'm not seeing, other than from James Woodyatt is what a user =20 > is going to be able to accomplish with something produced by this =20 > BOF (hopefully group soon, if things go well). > > The keys to that are interoperability, minimums of features per =20 > protocol written in a BCP where coders can implement a Homegate =20 > *thing* that is useful. > > But we cannot - even though most of us want to - forget how this =20 > Homegate *thing* is going to be used. It is the demarcation between =20= > the residential user and the SP (for the most part), right? =20 > Otherwise, what's it good for? > > Unfortunately (for some) - that means it has to be a Layer 7 box as =20= > well as everything else mentioned on the list so far. > > This most likely means it needs to be a audio/video SIP/RTSP/SDP =20 > server, call it a mini-SBC/keysystem lookin` *thing*, because if =20 > it's not, then it has to let all that traffic in so another Homegate =20= > *thing* CAN do this functionality. The idea of two boxes instead of =20= > one seems stupid when we all know those two are necessary for this =20 > to go anywhere. > > It also has to be a firewall that allows RTP in and out, and keeps =20 > the bad guys out. > > Someone brought up that is has to be a NAT. As much as I hate NATs, =20= > I think it has to be a NAT (or at least can be a NAT). > > All this doesn't mean we talk about all this tomorrow (all in 1 =20 > hour) - but we ought to acknowledge that this is part of what =20 > Homegate is to produce (*IF* this group becomes a WG). > > I think that is gonna mean that someone or some team eventually gets =20= > to decide which parts of SIP/RTSP/SDP are necessary for Homegate, =20 > meaning another BCP (*IF* this group becomes a WG). > > Now - the whole kitchen sink doesn't have to be in this *thing* this =20= > group produces (*IF* this group becomes a WG), but it needs to have =20= > a fair amount of function for the applications that are in use by =20 > residential users today, and out at least 5 years. Remember - it'll =20= > take at least 3 years to get the first RFC our of this group (*IF* =20 > this group becomes a WG). > > my 0.14986272 SEK (based on Friday's exchange rate) > > ;-) > > James > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From jmpolk@cisco.com Mon Jul 27 01:53:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A89328C260 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:53:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISTC-dgoLjIe for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107D628C268 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:53:10 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlUFAJAHbUqrR7PD/2dsb2JhbACIR7APiCiNZAWEDQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,275,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="354562166" Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Jul 2009 08:53:11 +0000 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6R8rBfA013741; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:53:11 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6R8rBOI009476; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:53:11 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:53:11 -0700 Received: from jmpolk-wxp01.cisco.com ([10.89.4.153]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:53:09 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:53:03 -0500 To: Hongyu Li From: "James M. Polk" In-Reply-To: <4EBB893C-F665-43C2-93D8-25827629AA40@huawei.com> References: <4EBB893C-F665-43C2-93D8-25827629AA40@huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2009 08:53:10.0048 (UTC) FILETIME=[AAB77200:01CA0E97] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3988; t=1248684791; x=1249548791; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22James=20M.=20Polk=22=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20What's=20Homegate=20reeeea lly=20going=20to=20accomplish? |Sender:=20; bh=I8wJ8qBhtRaRkWj1m3TCSy5UJcxBYVIoA6rp+Xmczpw=; b=mZ8KjjRwLTJF9ORgdiFlyZEMhluoD28t78Hgcl0O8oJqL/HuF11JcJbB1d fq4NrdRZ7af1fSgpyEtY1g3m+RE9mn+5u7EFfb3k28LkwP+NmqBrmQxIbZzr 3vVscv+huZ; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=jmpolk@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:53:11 -0000 Hongyu While I mostly agree with what you say, the list=20 of things Jason put together this BOF ought to=20 focus on (v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP,=20 DNSSEC) have nothing to do with transport either=20 - since none of them are in the TSV Area (where I'm a WG chair). That's why I was trying to be more of a catalyst=20 for discussion than anything else by phrasing my comment the way I did. James At 03:07 AM 7/27/2009, Hongyu Li wrote: >Hi James, > >My feeling for this BoF is it focuses on the transport part of and >HGW, as it is in the transport area. There are already several other >parties in industry, e.g. HGI and BBF, are working on device >requirements of HGW. Those are the places where what an HGW as a whole >box should look like. As for IETF, a place more for protocol, I don't >think it is our responsibility to define every aspect of a future HGW. >Even if for application layer protocols, there are too many parties >are already working on it. Before we incorporate application layer >protocols or applications capabilities in an HGW we are going to >study, we need to clarify what are the specific worked related we need >to do here in this BoF. It is not valuable to repeat others' job or >just simply include them. > >Cheers, >Hongyu > >=D4=DA 2009-7-27=A3=AC=C9=CF=CE=E76:44=A3=AC James M. Polk =D0=B4=B5=C0=A3= =BA > >>Guys >> >>I'm seeing basic low-level stuff mentioned as "what this group ought >>to focus on", like v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP, DNSSEC, and >>other low level things -- that all have admittedly real issues wrt >>interoperability and adoption. >> >>What I'm not seeing, other than from James Woodyatt is what a user >>is going to be able to accomplish with something produced by this >>BOF (hopefully group soon, if things go well). >> >>The keys to that are interoperability, minimums of features per >>protocol written in a BCP where coders can implement a Homegate >>*thing* that is useful. >> >>But we cannot - even though most of us want to - forget how this >>Homegate *thing* is going to be used. It is the demarcation between >>the residential user and the SP (for the most part), right? >>Otherwise, what's it good for? >> >>Unfortunately (for some) - that means it has to be a Layer 7 box as >>well as everything else mentioned on the list so far. >> >>This most likely means it needs to be a audio/video SIP/RTSP/SDP >>server, call it a mini-SBC/keysystem lookin` *thing*, because if >>it's not, then it has to let all that traffic in so another Homegate >>*thing* CAN do this functionality. The idea of two boxes instead of >>one seems stupid when we all know those two are necessary for this >>to go anywhere. >> >>It also has to be a firewall that allows RTP in and out, and keeps >>the bad guys out. >> >>Someone brought up that is has to be a NAT. As much as I hate NATs, >>I think it has to be a NAT (or at least can be a NAT). >> >>All this doesn't mean we talk about all this tomorrow (all in 1 >>hour) - but we ought to acknowledge that this is part of what >>Homegate is to produce (*IF* this group becomes a WG). >> >>I think that is gonna mean that someone or some team eventually gets >>to decide which parts of SIP/RTSP/SDP are necessary for Homegate, >>meaning another BCP (*IF* this group becomes a WG). >> >>Now - the whole kitchen sink doesn't have to be in this *thing* this >>group produces (*IF* this group becomes a WG), but it needs to have >>a fair amount of function for the applications that are in use by >>residential users today, and out at least 5 years. Remember - it'll >>take at least 3 years to get the first RFC our of this group (*IF* >>this group becomes a WG). >> >>my 0.14986272 SEK (based on Friday's exchange rate) >> >>;-) >> >>James >> >>_______________________________________________ >>homegate mailing list >>homegate@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From lihy@huawei.com Mon Jul 27 02:29:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945303A6984 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:29:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.374 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.374 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.224, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OrllTHCRWf5v for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga03-in.huawei.com (usaga03-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.220]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173E33A6C44 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga03-in [172.18.4.17]) by usaga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KNF00LWBP01JG@usaga03-in.huawei.com> for homegate@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 04:28:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dhcp-16b3.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-16b3.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.179]) by usaga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KNF00CQWOZZYR@usaga03-in.huawei.com> for homegate@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 04:28:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:28:47 +0800 From: Hongyu Li In-reply-to: To: "James M. Polk" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_YJZCDHfLfqYNHozXk71h1g)" References: <4EBB893C-F665-43C2-93D8-25827629AA40@huawei.com> Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:29:04 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_YJZCDHfLfqYNHozXk71h1g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable James, You are right. There are more work than transport only we need to =20 cover, but we shouldn't go too far. Hongyu =E5=9C=A8 2009-7-27=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=884:53=EF=BC=8C James M. = Polk =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > Hongyu > > While I mostly agree with what you say, the list of things Jason put =20= > together this BOF ought to focus on (v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, =20 > TFTP, DNSSEC) have nothing to do with transport either - since none =20= > of them are in the TSV Area (where I'm a WG chair). > > That's why I was trying to be more of a catalyst for discussion than =20= > anything else by phrasing my comment the way I did. > > James > > At 03:07 AM 7/27/2009, Hongyu Li wrote: >> Hi James, >> >> My feeling for this BoF is it focuses on the transport part of and >> HGW, as it is in the transport area. There are already several other >> parties in industry, e.g. HGI and BBF, are working on device >> requirements of HGW. Those are the places where what an HGW as a =20 >> whole >> box should look like. As for IETF, a place more for protocol, I don't >> think it is our responsibility to define every aspect of a future =20 >> HGW. >> Even if for application layer protocols, there are too many parties >> are already working on it. Before we incorporate application layer >> protocols or applications capabilities in an HGW we are going to >> study, we need to clarify what are the specific worked related we =20 >> need >> to do here in this BoF. It is not valuable to repeat others' job or >> just simply include them. >> >> Cheers, >> Hongyu >> >> =C3=94=C3=9A 2009-7-27=C2=A3=C2=AC=C3=89=C3=8F=C3=8E=C3=A76:44=C2=A3=C2= =AC James M. Polk =C3=90=C2=B4=C2=B5=C3=80=C2=A3=C2=BA >> >>> Guys >>> >>> I'm seeing basic low-level stuff mentioned as "what this group ought >>> to focus on", like v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP, DNSSEC, and >>> other low level things -- that all have admittedly real issues wrt >>> interoperability and adoption. >>> >>> What I'm not seeing, other than from James Woodyatt is what a user >>> is going to be able to accomplish with something produced by this >>> BOF (hopefully group soon, if things go well). >>> >>> The keys to that are interoperability, minimums of features per >>> protocol written in a BCP where coders can implement a Homegate >>> *thing* that is useful. >>> >>> But we cannot - even though most of us want to - forget how this >>> Homegate *thing* is going to be used. It is the demarcation between >>> the residential user and the SP (for the most part), right? >>> Otherwise, what's it good for? >>> >>> Unfortunately (for some) - that means it has to be a Layer 7 box as >>> well as everything else mentioned on the list so far. >>> >>> This most likely means it needs to be a audio/video SIP/RTSP/SDP >>> server, call it a mini-SBC/keysystem lookin` *thing*, because if >>> it's not, then it has to let all that traffic in so another Homegate >>> *thing* CAN do this functionality. The idea of two boxes instead of >>> one seems stupid when we all know those two are necessary for this >>> to go anywhere. >>> >>> It also has to be a firewall that allows RTP in and out, and keeps >>> the bad guys out. >>> >>> Someone brought up that is has to be a NAT. As much as I hate NATs, >>> I think it has to be a NAT (or at least can be a NAT). >>> >>> All this doesn't mean we talk about all this tomorrow (all in 1 >>> hour) - but we ought to acknowledge that this is part of what >>> Homegate is to produce (*IF* this group becomes a WG). >>> >>> I think that is gonna mean that someone or some team eventually gets >>> to decide which parts of SIP/RTSP/SDP are necessary for Homegate, >>> meaning another BCP (*IF* this group becomes a WG). >>> >>> Now - the whole kitchen sink doesn't have to be in this *thing* this >>> group produces (*IF* this group becomes a WG), but it needs to have >>> a fair amount of function for the applications that are in use by >>> residential users today, and out at least 5 years. Remember - it'll >>> take at least 3 years to get the first RFC our of this group (*IF* >>> this group becomes a WG). >>> >>> my 0.14986272 SEK (based on Friday's exchange rate) >>> >>> ;-) >>> >>> James >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> homegate mailing list >>> homegate@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > --Boundary_(ID_YJZCDHfLfqYNHozXk71h1g) Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hongyu
<= /span>
=E5=9C=A8 2009-7-27=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=884= :53=EF=BC=8C James M. Polk =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

Hongyu

While I mostly agree with what you say, = the list of things Jason put together this BOF ought to focus on (v6 = (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP, DNSSEC) have nothing to do with = transport either - since none of them are in the TSV Area (where I'm a = WG chair).

That's why I was trying to be more of a catalyst for = discussion than anything else by phrasing my comment the way I = did.

James

At 03:07 AM 7/27/2009, Hongyu Li = wrote:
Hi = James,

My feeling for = this BoF is it focuses on the transport part of = and
HGW, as it is in the = transport area. There are already several = other
parties in industry, = e.g. HGI and BBF, are working on device
requirements of HGW. Those are the places where what an = HGW as a whole
box should look = like. As for IETF, a place more for protocol, I = don't
think it is our = responsibility to define every aspect of a future = HGW.
Even if for application = layer protocols, there are too many parties
are already working on it. Before we incorporate = application layer
protocols or = applications capabilities in an HGW we are going = to
study, we need to clarify = what are the specific worked related we need
to do here in this BoF. It is not valuable to repeat = others' job or
just simply = include them.

Cheers,
Hongyu

=C3=94=C3=9A = 2009-7-27=C2=A3=C2=AC=C3=89=C3=8F=C3=8E=C3=A76:44=C2=A3=C2=AC James M. = Polk =C3=90=C2=B4=C2=B5=C3=80=C2=A3=C2=BA

Guys

I'm seeing basic low-level stuff = mentioned as "what this group = ought
to focus on", like v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP, = DNSSEC, and
other low level things -- that = all have admittedly real issues = wrt
interoperability and = adoption.

What I'm not seeing, other than = from James Woodyatt is what a = user
is going to be able to accomplish with something produced = by this
BOF (hopefully group soon, if things go = well).

The keys to that are = interoperability, minimums of features = per
protocol written in a BCP where coders can implement a = Homegate
*thing* that is = useful.

But we cannot - even though most = of us want to - forget how this
Homegate *thing* is going to be = used.  It is the demarcation = between
the residential user and the SP (for the most part), = right?
Otherwise, what's it good = for?

Unfortunately (for some) - that = means it has to be a Layer 7 box = as
well as everything else mentioned on the list so = far.

This most likely means it needs = to be a audio/video = SIP/RTSP/SDP
server, call it a = mini-SBC/keysystem lookin` *thing*, because = if
it's not, then it has to let all that traffic in so = another Homegate
*thing* CAN do this = functionality. The idea of two boxes instead = of
one seems stupid when we all know those two are necessary = for this
to go = anywhere.

It also has to be a firewall = that allows RTP in and out, and = keeps
the bad guys out.

Someone brought up that is has = to be a NAT. As much as I hate = NATs,
I think it has to be a NAT (or at least can be a = NAT).

All this doesn't mean we talk = about all this tomorrow (all in = 1
hour) - but we ought to acknowledge that this is part of = what
Homegate is to produce (*IF* this group becomes a = WG).

I think that is gonna mean that = someone or some team eventually = gets
to decide which parts of SIP/RTSP/SDP are necessary for = Homegate,
meaning another BCP (*IF* this = group becomes a WG).

Now - the whole kitchen sink = doesn't have to be in this *thing* = this
group produces (*IF* this group becomes a WG), but it = needs to have
a fair amount of function for = the applications that are in use = by
residential users today, and out at least 5 years. = Remember - it'll
take at least 3 years to get the = first RFC our of this group = (*IF*
this group becomes a = WG).

my 0.14986272 SEK (based on = Friday's exchange rate)

;-)

James

_______________________________________________
homegate mailing = list
homegate@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/homegate


= --Boundary_(ID_YJZCDHfLfqYNHozXk71h1g)-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Mon Jul 27 04:30:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9216F28C191 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 04:30:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1IcMEth9+Vhz for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 04:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7522728C1BD for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 04:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([10.52.116.31]) by paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-TDCH7.65911933; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:29:49 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP02.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:29:49 -0400 Received: from 130.129.22.126 ([130.129.22.126]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:29:50 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.20.0.090605 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:29:47 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: "James M. Polk" , Hongyu Li Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? Thread-Index: AcoOrYu8/bvIab/PskaIApO4fLp6ag== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2009 11:29:49.0657 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D51F490:01CA0EAD] Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:30:08 -0000 We should not get hung up on what area this work is in right now (we're not even an official BoF). Let's focus instead on what work we think we should focus on (which necessarily includes what things the IETF can do compared t= o other groups). Jason On 7/27/09 4:53 AM, "James M. Polk" wrote: > Hongyu >=20 > While I mostly agree with what you say, the list > of things Jason put together this BOF ought to > focus on (v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP, > DNSSEC) have nothing to do with transport either > - since none of them are in the TSV Area (where I'm a WG chair). >=20 > That's why I was trying to be more of a catalyst > for discussion than anything else by phrasing my comment the way I did. >=20 > James >=20 > At 03:07 AM 7/27/2009, Hongyu Li wrote: >> Hi James, >>=20 >> My feeling for this BoF is it focuses on the transport part of and >> HGW, as it is in the transport area. There are already several other >> parties in industry, e.g. HGI and BBF, are working on device >> requirements of HGW. Those are the places where what an HGW as a whole >> box should look like. As for IETF, a place more for protocol, I don't >> think it is our responsibility to define every aspect of a future HGW. >> Even if for application layer protocols, there are too many parties >> are already working on it. Before we incorporate application layer >> protocols or applications capabilities in an HGW we are going to >> study, we need to clarify what are the specific worked related we need >> to do here in this BoF. It is not valuable to repeat others' job or >> just simply include them. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Hongyu >>=20 >> =C3=94=C3=9A 2009-7-27=C2=A3=C2=AC=C3=89=C3=8F=C3=8E=C3=A76:44=C2=A3=C2=AC James M. Polk =C3=90=C2=B4=C2=B5=C3=80=C2=A3=C2=BA >>=20 >>> Guys >>>=20 >>> I'm seeing basic low-level stuff mentioned as "what this group ought >>> to focus on", like v6 (DHCP and DNS), ZeroConf, TFTP, DNSSEC, and >>> other low level things -- that all have admittedly real issues wrt >>> interoperability and adoption. >>>=20 >>> What I'm not seeing, other than from James Woodyatt is what a user >>> is going to be able to accomplish with something produced by this >>> BOF (hopefully group soon, if things go well). >>>=20 >>> The keys to that are interoperability, minimums of features per >>> protocol written in a BCP where coders can implement a Homegate >>> *thing* that is useful. >>>=20 >>> But we cannot - even though most of us want to - forget how this >>> Homegate *thing* is going to be used. It is the demarcation between >>> the residential user and the SP (for the most part), right? >>> Otherwise, what's it good for? >>>=20 >>> Unfortunately (for some) - that means it has to be a Layer 7 box as >>> well as everything else mentioned on the list so far. >>>=20 >>> This most likely means it needs to be a audio/video SIP/RTSP/SDP >>> server, call it a mini-SBC/keysystem lookin` *thing*, because if >>> it's not, then it has to let all that traffic in so another Homegate >>> *thing* CAN do this functionality. The idea of two boxes instead of >>> one seems stupid when we all know those two are necessary for this >>> to go anywhere. >>>=20 >>> It also has to be a firewall that allows RTP in and out, and keeps >>> the bad guys out. >>>=20 >>> Someone brought up that is has to be a NAT. As much as I hate NATs, >>> I think it has to be a NAT (or at least can be a NAT). >>>=20 >>> All this doesn't mean we talk about all this tomorrow (all in 1 >>> hour) - but we ought to acknowledge that this is part of what >>> Homegate is to produce (*IF* this group becomes a WG). >>>=20 >>> I think that is gonna mean that someone or some team eventually gets >>> to decide which parts of SIP/RTSP/SDP are necessary for Homegate, >>> meaning another BCP (*IF* this group becomes a WG). >>>=20 >>> Now - the whole kitchen sink doesn't have to be in this *thing* this >>> group produces (*IF* this group becomes a WG), but it needs to have >>> a fair amount of function for the applications that are in use by >>> residential users today, and out at least 5 years. Remember - it'll >>> take at least 3 years to get the first RFC our of this group (*IF* >>> this group becomes a WG). >>>=20 >>> my 0.14986272 SEK (based on Friday's exchange rate) >>>=20 >>> ;-) >>>=20 >>> James >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> homegate mailing list >>> homegate@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From fred@cisco.com Mon Jul 27 05:16:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABDF28C212 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:16:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.055 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.055 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.544, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8tm8UQZ74ocE for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C68F3A68E6 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:16:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ak0AADI3bUqQ/uCLe2dsb2JhbACBUZgvAQEWJAaeF4gojXEFhA2BTQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,276,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="45905066" Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Jul 2009 12:15:10 +0000 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6RCFAPA008060 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:15:10 +0200 Received: from dhcp-56c8.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-10-61-101-160.cisco.com [10.61.101.160]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6RCFA2o023417 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:15:10 GMT Message-Id: From: Fred Baker To: homegate@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <6C2F751B-119F-41D6-878C-C4CFBD57DF14@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:15:10 +0200 References: <6C2F751B-119F-41D6-878C-C4CFBD57DF14@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2561; t=1248696910; x=1249560910; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Comments=20on=20IPv6=20Prefix=20Subdele gation |Sender:=20; bh=Cg7gE3/BWRLQeBycQM/LVlCaFvu9jsqxmDN2xPdXerI=; b=v5rcLt8O8GGAZ8wQPRrIn7G/F+s+LvpxapxXdBYYmIMmUMNRdz1nqEuG1F R9TJcnI4X0DN5BWuU0XZWIo4+IqbMN7N26Jti1ldwUwLzUXV4tKqdcLVbRdn d0ul2g1Xks; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); Subject: Re: [homegate] Comments on IPv6 Prefix Subdelegation X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:16:56 -0000 A comment that may be relevant to homegate as well... On Jul 27, 2009, at 2:09 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > Let me make an introductory comment on: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-baker-ipv6-prefix-subdelegation > "Prefix Sub-delegation in a SOHO/SMB Environment", Fred Baker, 27- > Jul-09, > > > In IPv6 Operations, we have two posted documents right now that > comment on prefix subdelegation. These are: > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donley-ipv6-cpe-rtr-use-cases-and- > reqs > "Use Cases and Requirements for an IPv6 CPE Router", Chris Donley, > Deepak > Kharbanda, John Jason Brzozowski, Yiu Lee, Jason Weil, Kirk > Erichsen, Lee > Howard, Jean-Francois Tremblay, 2-Jul-09, > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router > "IPv6 CPE Router Recommendations", Hemant Singh, Wes Beebee, 25- > Mar-09, > > > The premise is that an ISP might delegate a PA prefix to a SOHO/SMB > network, perhaps using DHCP or etc. It would be nice if the prefix > could be in turn sliced into /64 prefixes and sub-delegated to the > various LANs in the subsidiary network. > > draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router is trying to recommend to vendors > that they should build CPE routers in a certain way, and specifies > in part how sub-delegation would work. In my opinion as WG chair, I > would rather that it said "do RFC X" than "do the following > algorithm", as one might want to change the algorithm and the > proposed algorithm has not been proven operationally. In general, I > would like 6man to take on the work of describing that algorithm. > > I threw draft-baker-ipv6-prefix-subdelegation together very quickly > for the purpose of saying "I would want you to reference something > like ". That said, it is at least a first step, and may be the > right answer for the moment. I would appreciate it if 6man could > take a look at the discussion on sub-delegation in the two CPE > drafts and at this draft, and decide first whether the draft is a > reasonable first step toward solving the problem that the CPE drafts > target, and then further decide whether and with what authors they > would like to finish that discussion. I'm throwing no personal ego > in here - if someone else would like to respond to the question, > less work on my part sounds good to me. > > Your opinions, please... From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Mon Jul 27 05:45:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0753A6A6A for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:45:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XCg4mavZeaad for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF573A67FC for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.158] (dhcp-11ce.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.17.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n6RCit7e044782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:44:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:44:53 +0200 To: homegate@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:45:03 -0000 At 7:29 AM -0400 7/27/09, Livingood, Jason wrote: >We should not get hung up on what area this work is in right now (we're not >even an official BoF). Let's focus instead on what work we think we should >focus on (which necessarily includes what things the IETF can do compared to >other groups). The latter point is particularly important. The IETF is the wrong place for some of the things that people have listed so far. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From oran@cisco.com Mon Jul 27 06:53:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0313A6C75 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:53:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T1N8eIo7VJ93 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DDE3A6942 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:53:10 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAOBNbUqrR7O6/2dsb2JhbAC6GYgojX0FhA2BTQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,276,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="354723607" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Jul 2009 13:53:11 +0000 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6RDrCAZ005400 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:53:12 -0700 Received: from sjc-vpnasa-570.cisco.com (sjc-vpnasa-570.cisco.com [10.21.106.61]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6RDrAtF020613 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:53:11 GMT Message-Id: <8254ED8B-F50B-4EE9-AB66-183486ABB695@cisco.com> From: David R Oran To: homegate@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:53:09 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2816; t=1248702792; x=1249566792; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=oran@cisco.com; z=From:=20David=20R=20Oran=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Bar=20BoF=20Details |Sender:=20; bh=xmteFMXNuK01isUlXgL/FOv4k9Xp6IDzsqk/1SSoghY=; b=BUFcojcMNdecbfaPye1ASEaIAkj0RENEjmSF3amVSnWCN9Rno07+c49D3k ExZzvrhlCOobL9k7RWxefn0HJhpAwKEVw+DAjUxg3eQrXAwLE3mlD0glJ/UY ZcYoAH80Nn; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=oran@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Subject: Re: [homegate] Bar BoF Details X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:53:12 -0000 We have gotten permission to bring food in, thanks to persistent =20 efforts by the secretariat and the .SE hosts to cause the conference =20 facility people to relent. So, if people can find take-out locations near the facility, that =20 would help folks who want to have food during the meeting. Best Regards, DaveO. On Jul 26, 2009, at 10:16 PM, Livingood, Jason wrote: > Our Bar BoF / Informal BoF begins at 8:00pm Monday evening, in the =20 > IETF meeting venue, at 8:00pm sharp. It will be in a room called =20 > =93Lilla Teatern,=94 and you will see a sign for it as soon as you = enter =20 > the main lobby of the conference center. > > You can come in as early as 7:40pm (another group is using it until =20= > then). Unfortunately, the venue will NOT allow us to bring in food =20= > from the outside. Thus, please either try to grab a bite to eat =20 > beforehand, or eat something at the bar afterwards. > > We will limit the meeting to roughly 60 minutes, after which we will =20= > adjourn to a nearby bar for refreshments (and food, as needed). =20 > Assuming the group can stay reasonably together and makes it to the =20= > same bar, I=92ll buy the first round for everyone. Please come =20 > prepared with bar suggestions in the very local area, as this is one =20= > of the agenda items! > > I think it=92d be great if we could determine exactly what should be =20= > in-scope for the group in this meeting. So one exercise might be to =20= > list what we definitely want to do, what we do NOT want to do, and =20 > what we=92d like to do at some point but can=92t focus on now. > > Loose agenda for this informal meeting: > =95 Thoughts on the scope of a draft charter =96 how broad or = narrow =20 > should it be? General discussion. Attempt to categorize as noted =20 > above. > (In no particular order below.) > =95 DNSSEC and DNS Proxy concerns > =95 IPv6 and DHCPv6 concerns > =95 ECN and RED concerns > =95 Multicast functionality/performance - MLD, = IGMP proxying, =20 > multicast/unicast conversion. > =95 Security concerns > =95 Firmware update concerns > =95 Zero-config issues (per James Woodyatt) > =95 Questions over management of devices (and = split management) > =95 Concerns over cascading of devices / = multiple subnets (per =20 > Iljitsch van Beijnum) > =95 What bar to go to now?? > > oOOOOOo > | o Oo > // | o |o > || | o o | > \\| o o | > | o | > +------------+ > > > Regards > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From jhw@apple.com Mon Jul 27 08:18:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1071C28C16B for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:18:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qW27dNPf-rWJ for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5907E28C155 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.apple.com (relay12.apple.com [17.128.113.53]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA9D6EF8A16 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:17:58 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807135-b7b69ae000004d3d-1d-4a6dc5249afb Received: from [17.151.79.93] (Unknown_Domain [17.151.79.93]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 41.A1.19773.525CD6A4; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1074) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:17:55 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9C499B2F-6844-450B-A1CC-32F2B86B0E40@apple.com> References: To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1074) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Subject: Re: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:18:15 -0000 On Jul 27, 2009, at 14:44, Paul Hoffman wrote: > At 7:29 AM -0400 7/27/09, Livingood, Jason wrote: >> >> Let's focus instead on what work we think we should focus on (which >> necessarily includes what things the IETF can do compared to other >> groups). > > The latter point is particularly important. The IETF is the wrong > place for some of the things that people have listed so far. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we've successfully pushed back on most or all of those efforts. Perhaps we can now concentrate on refining the proposed charter to focus on serving the Internet engineering community as a whole. The elevator pitch in my head goes like this: we're collecting the IETF standards, information and best current practices relevant to the engineering of residential Internet gateways for convenient reference by external standards documents with an aim toward promoting consistency and simplicity of operation and to facilitate the transition of residential networks to IPv6 operations. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From jmpolk@cisco.com Mon Jul 27 09:14:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4573A6AD4 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.135, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dwfc-DBGo5oG for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94A03A6A4E for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:40 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AikHANpvbUqrR7MV/2dsb2JhbACIR7I5iCiOJAWEDIFN X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,277,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="354828735" Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Jul 2009 16:14:41 +0000 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6RGEgxK011831; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:42 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6RGEfTS026228; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:14:42 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:41 -0700 Received: from jmpolk-wxp01.cisco.com ([10.89.3.179]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:40 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:14:33 -0500 To: james woodyatt , homegate@ietf.org From: "James M. Polk" In-Reply-To: <9C499B2F-6844-450B-A1CC-32F2B86B0E40@apple.com> References: <9C499B2F-6844-450B-A1CC-32F2B86B0E40@apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2009 16:14:40.0712 (UTC) FILETIME=[5861FC80:01CA0ED5] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1404; t=1248711282; x=1249575282; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22James=20M.=20Polk=22=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20What's=20Homegate=20reeeea lly=20going=20to=20accomplish? |Sender:=20; bh=jFkd24SOhHV0JredpMpQ/R9IHIqirjOU4GENd0a3lDA=; b=pTNdD6YThl83q3km/rLbJnhaRGlugUKdAfXC4vcaRjcFaeDJQhUZa1ptey znPQOKlv9TmXW5ITNKI/oqiKH2zmBZ7S/67yfW6ju636RGjxq7dbIuccI+QJ Pp0B0w7YqjIKw2h/Az2SrClLRppOTnskIRekUy8tGfOTLUhryOfC8=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=jmpolk@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Subject: Re: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:14:41 -0000 At 10:17 AM 7/27/2009, james woodyatt wrote: >On Jul 27, 2009, at 14:44, Paul Hoffman wrote: >>At 7:29 AM -0400 7/27/09, Livingood, Jason wrote: >>> >>>Let's focus instead on what work we think we should focus on (which >>>necessarily includes what things the IETF can do compared to other >>>groups). >> >>The latter point is particularly important. The IETF is the wrong >>place for some of the things that people have listed so far. > >Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we've successfully pushed back on most or >all of those efforts. Perhaps we can now concentrate on refining the >proposed charter to focus on serving the Internet engineering >community as a whole. > >The elevator pitch in my head goes like this: we're collecting the >IETF standards, information and best current practices relevant to the >engineering of residential Internet gateways for convenient reference >by external standards documents with an aim toward promoting >consistency and simplicity of operation and to facilitate the >transition of residential networks to IPv6 operations. well, that sounds a LOT like product mgmt -- which the IETF isn't... >-- >james woodyatt >member of technical staff, communications engineering > > >_______________________________________________ >homegate mailing list >homegate@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From jhw@apple.com Mon Jul 27 10:04:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA99A28C0DF for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:04:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.073 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.073 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.526, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Be+1ws1NNnUa for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9226F28C285 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay15.apple.com (relay15.apple.com [17.128.113.54]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217146EFDA8B for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay15.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay15.apple.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with ESMTP id 146225A0003 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807136-a44f8bb00000447e-8d-4a6dde1ad48c Received: from [17.151.78.229] (unknown [17.151.78.229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by relay15.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id A2530558002 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1074) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:04:24 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <9C499B2F-6844-450B-A1CC-32F2B86B0E40@apple.com> To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1074) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [homegate] What's Homegate reeeeally going to accomplish? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:04:26 -0000 On Jul 27, 2009, at 18:14, James M. Polk wrote: > At 10:17 AM 7/27/2009, james woodyatt wrote: >> >> The elevator pitch in my head goes like this: we're collecting the >> IETF standards, information and best current practices relevant to >> the >> engineering of residential Internet gateways for convenient reference >> by external standards documents with an aim toward promoting >> consistency and simplicity of operation and to facilitate the >> transition of residential networks to IPv6 operations. > > well, that sounds a LOT like product mgmt -- which the IETF isn't... Hmmm. None of the product managers I know think that IETF setting standards, making recommendations and providing information is a serious encroachment on their turf. In fact, one of the frustrations I've heard them voice to me is that the IETF has often failed to set important standards or make useful recommendations to simplify the problem domain, and this leads inevitably to unnecessary complications for applications engineers and network operators. For example, IETF long refused to set a standard for IPv4/NAT gateway behaviors, and even now IETF has not finished documenting the basic behaviors that have emerged in the absence of such standards. Those behaviors widely vary, unnecessarily, and this poses all kinds of problems for the Internet community. I could prattle on enumerating a lengthy list of similar IETF failures. I'd really not like to see the transition of residential Internet service to IPv6 plagued with similar failures. This is the basic idea behind draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security, but there are plenty of areas besides security where specific information and recommendations would be helpful, e.g. DNS, MLD, MIP, etc. One of the best documents we have is RFC 4084, which lays down the basic framework of what it means to deliver "Internet service" to retail consumers. [If you're on this list and you haven't read it, then you should read it ASAP.] It's really good, and it isn't product management, if you ask me. We should look to it for inspiration. Sadly, RFC 4084 is dated, and it doesn't really go far enough. It needs to be updated and augmented with more detailed explanations of what functions are required and/or recommended in home gateways to facilitate the delivery of Internet services-- with varying capabilities-- to residential users. Sure, we could leave that to various other bodies to define, separately, and differently, as we did for IPv4, but if we do, then we shouldn't be terribly surprised when the IPv6 transition turns out to solve no real problems beyond the immediate IPv4-allocation exhaustion problem. That, I submit, would be a colossal waste of engineering effort. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From iljitsch@muada.com Mon Jul 27 11:05:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45B33A6B01 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.416 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.416 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.183, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id btNKh5Cci78l for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2CF3A6CA9 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-55f3.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-55f3.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.85.243] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6RI41fq066229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:04:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: homegate@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:04:16 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Subject: [homegate] about to start: jabber X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:05:00 -0000 We're in jabber room tsvarea@jabber.ietf.org I can feed a handful of people audio over skype as "iljitsch" Iljitsch From lars.eggert@nokia.com Mon Jul 27 11:05:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673373A6C6A for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:05:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.087, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KgvdhF76KHk1 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7903A6CA0 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-52bd.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-52bd.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.82.189] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.fit.nokia.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6RI4hKn055093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:04:43 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from lars.eggert@nokia.com) Message-Id: <52582136-E8B9-459E-9211-52862C6AE90B@nokia.com> From: Lars Eggert To: homegate@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-113--172255706; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:04:43 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.fit.nokia.com [212.213.221.39]); Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:04:44 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [homegate] use tsvarea@jabber.ietf.org jabber room X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:05:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail-113--172255706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit because homegate doesn't have one currently Lars --Apple-Mail-113--172255706 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGQDCCAvkw ggJioAMCAQICEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MDgyMzE3NDMzOVoXDTA5MDgyMzE3NDMz OVowXDEPMA0GA1UEBBMGRWdnZXJ0MQ0wCwYDVQQqEwRMYXJzMRQwEgYDVQQDEwtMYXJzIEVnZ2Vy dDEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYVbGFycy5lZ2dlcnRAbm9raWEuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAlwQVktJZCY89iU6jcW1XnZQN+aMgF2utCUT3H3ZKB5Jbet1SDWt0md/W 571bHjxtn9CfEJdochNL3l9f1WiJNdVbJ182557Ltx9SojqthpqtA0jKEqo2gqrf+raUj1demmo0 6ocsLqv046CrwidOp6k0RAfvkKPLhD4PD9Nk3oaZuxqBz1wY4u8Q83iWMArDeXiQxfNZnOBz5cDs VvVjTjitm3VANkbD02tNkwl5AHw7htde4yH8hIwlfzqsAtHBEah3HyOvs9b+gHg2pFz9eS+HuotY ZKycCweRs8NKXoCg+zAkVYi3zvZEH2VOuPlpMQMrB9+fLWg2UBsTeZ864wIDAQABozIwMDAgBgNV HREEGTAXgRVsYXJzLmVnZ2VydEBub2tpYS5jb20wDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUF AAOBgQBMdV2U+ryV5t3nuBFH19XKflodN6Bc60GBYHHY/Z0+Cl08Q75qzTt02IILBg+/YVh/fygb 6pFrOm1sFtLN7fENBfbO2VtpFjP2lGUgbXTVT5xGM6+MtqZiBI6LqexAeY6gsd/taoUfy9fZG42d ciBA9gSGlQjjWQyG8mb5HR8L9jCCAz8wggKooAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgdExCzAJ BgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgG A1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMg RGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3 DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3 MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5 KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAxKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9 fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkVcI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+ uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUqVIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMB Af8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMGA1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3 dGVQZXJzb25hbEZyZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgG A1UEAxMRUHJpdmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcP f6+svsIXoUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH 2ydxVyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU1341YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8x ggMQMIIDDAIBATB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAo UHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQ SLtZswwprYYsoWlANo4FATAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIIBbzAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcB MBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0wOTA3MjcxODA0NDRaMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEWBBSh8fvyZodADBau /HVxpxju+g1aMzCBhQYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMXgwdjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEwgYcGCyqGSIb3DQEJEAILMXigdjBiMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEw DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAVNrPP/qQ0ppolb6TdGW4wH3RLST0pmcVOf8ryO8RNs6bD/RxKjqI g8ocInFxaoCn27GBOGwO35cTLN10lobarBTNF973g59rFU0l14Gy+EOEuj2An1olqNLZPkKKiUKX tSyPqhoFnW0XP/bL8nNugdnUW6CldnlaaMmvX/9AvtfBylDuifbR+1U2u8ail9FbByCgReVaDpYv QDVDflciEAY9dzzoZeogSZpKFvTgD//hDjv8qGtsbiM5J+nS9pwZNYU+vrHYNPUE6lIGAdItxqhc ZU4dqFuFe8UjFZCgkRxpcExgyy47yN2hu54F9qMohGmM8RxmODYEoxy5zWcMuwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-113--172255706-- From iljitsch@muada.com Mon Jul 27 12:39:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792A93A6D1F for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:39:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.157, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQktuoz09WFf for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B1C3A693C for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-55f3.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-55f3.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.85.243] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6RJdIdZ069430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:39:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: <7ADBC53A-7AEE-493B-925E-18D8D51E95E9@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: homegate@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:39:35 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Subject: [homegate] Audio recording X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:39:40 -0000 Hi all, I made an audio recording. The people far away don't come through very well but it's something: http://www.muada.com/Homegate-2009-07-27-Stockholm.mp3 I'll see if I can upload a somewhat better version later. Iljitsch From lars.eggert@nokia.com Mon Jul 27 14:48:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 364F03A6D6C for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:48:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WOBTrRzHiRmp for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D103A6D3A for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host-78-64-88-132.homerun.telia.com (host-78-64-88-132.homerun.telia.com [78.64.88.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.fit.nokia.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6RLm9oZ059192 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:48:09 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from lars.eggert@nokia.com) Message-Id: From: Lars Eggert To: homegate@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-116--167592993; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:22:26 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.194]); Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:48:10 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [homegate] the link I just mentioned X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:48:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail-116--167592993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a link to the service that I mentioned in reply to Jean- Francois remark: http://netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/ Lars --Apple-Mail-116--167592993 Content-Disposition: attachment; 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Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:34:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.254 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.254 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.345, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m1U0alGIGMMw; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [83.149.65.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F26A3A6E6C; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-55f3.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-55f3.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.85.243] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n6T8YKxt083543 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:34:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: homegate@ietf.org, TSV Area Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:34:38 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Subject: [homegate] Amount of packet buffering in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:34:41 -0000 [posted to homegate and tsv area, prune as necessary] I'm currently in the congestion control research group session and the issue of excessive buffering in home gateways came up. (I'm posting to tsv area rather than iccrg or ledbat to avoid subscribing to a bunch of new lists for a single discussion, I would prefer to discuss this on homegate but I'm open to redirects if necessary.) So what is the right thing to do? As I mentioned in the homegate bar bof, last year I was in a place where there was a 128 kbps uplink with 10 seconds (160 kbyte) of buffering. This made the connection almost unusable until I manually set my send/receive buffers to 8k. The question is, what do we want to tell home gateway builders? Obviously it would be nice to give priority to VoIP and gaming traffic and so on, but how do you easily do this without an extensive packet classification system? We also wouldn't want applications to game the system by sending more small packets that get better service than fewer large packets. What I'm thinking is that at 64 kbps or slower, you probably want to buffer 4 packets and no more, but also no less. At higher speeds, I'm thinking 10 packets is really all you need, assuming a single fifo / tail drop queue. Does anyone have data or arguments that conflict with this? But do we want to recommend RED? I seem to remember it has fallen somewhat out of favor, but is it worse than a simple tail drop queue? With RED it's necessary to have more buffering in order to let it work without tail drops happening anyway. So how much buffering would that require? 20 packets? 40? Bob Briscoe just made the argument that weighted fair queuing isolates flows from each other so they can't interact in useful ways. So recommend against it? On the other hand, WFQ would make VoIP etc work much better in the presence of some heavy flows. But not as well as in the case where we specifically prioritize the real-time traffic. I'm guessing that we don't want to specify any default diffserv behavior... Iljitsch From oran@cisco.com Wed Jul 29 01:51:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B763A6CEB; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pwZl1PSdC41H; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4073A6EDE; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:49:39 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAJCqb0qrR7MV/2dsb2JhbAC7VYgnLQiPdAWCRAiBRA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,288,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="356130121" Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2009 08:49:37 +0000 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6T8nbE6005973; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:49:37 -0700 Received: from sjc-vpnasa-589.cisco.com (sjc-vpnasa-589.cisco.com [10.21.106.80]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6T8nZhY007431; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:49:36 GMT Message-Id: From: David R Oran To: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:49:35 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4348; t=1248857377; x=1249721377; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=oran@cisco.com; z=From:=20David=20R=20Oran=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Amount=20of=20packet=20buf fering=20in=20home=20gateways |Sender:=20; bh=xHkTJWMkMTS4JyM2427JcMVdwQLKTjIcE08YrUYSScU=; b=QTWP7DtC7/1OjoxVDrfFdgcPrpBft8p1Ux3xRUpBQDME5uxx07B+Kug+Kj gtNrvNAYoefpWUwRYR/r2DP2sBodxpjaxEeWG8JYm1XmCcfAxe+SQ1lHq7pj 2P3qOctcI0mL4cQ7jD8EJ6vNZWf8cH0OB/PuGKcFCDyQ4paf63dDs=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=oran@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Cc: TSV Area , homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Amount of packet buffering in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:51:11 -0000 On Jul 29, 2009, at 10:34 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > [posted to homegate and tsv area, prune as necessary] > > I'm currently in the congestion control research group session and > the issue of excessive buffering in home gateways came up. (I'm > posting to tsv area rather than iccrg or ledbat to avoid subscribing > to a bunch of new lists for a single discussion, I would prefer to > discuss this on homegate but I'm open to redirects if necessary.) > It isn't actually home gateways that appear to be the problem, but either independent (or combined) L2 devices like cable modems or DSL modems that are the big offenders. In my case as a user I tend to ameliorate the problem by rate limiting the output of my home gateway to avoid building up a queue on the cable modem. At least the open- source firmware loads allow you to do this on some devices. This does bring up a potential work area in the IETF, which is to develop or re-purpose some protocol for coordinating L3 and L2 devices so that the L3 box can learn the link characteristics of the L2 device and not act as if the ethernet between them is actually the capacity of the (probably bottleneck) next hop. I don't think is this is an appropriate topic for the homegate group, as it jumps way over the line into protocol development. > So what is the right thing to do? As I mentioned in the homegate bar > bof, last year I was in a place where there was a 128 kbps uplink > with 10 seconds (160 kbyte) of buffering. This made the connection > almost unusable until I manually set my send/receive buffers to 8k. > > The question is, what do we want to tell home gateway builders? > Obviously it would be nice to give priority to VoIP and gaming > traffic and so on, but how do you easily do this without an > extensive packet classification system? Extensive is in the mind of the beholder. If you simply let the hosts do the marking, then all the home gateway has to do is police/shape. Right now we're in a chicken/egg situation where most hosts don't bother to mark because the home gateways either don't obey the markings, or worse, remark or drop the traffic. HGI and others (e.g. DLNA) do in fact have specs for this kind of stuff. I'll refrain from commenting on what I think of their quality. I think the group might consider taking some of this on, however I urge caution for a number of reasons including: - focus for the group - bleed-over into net neutrality issues - service definition and provisioning of device queues by the service provider versus the consumer. > We also wouldn't want applications to game the system by sending > more small packets that get better service than fewer large packets. > All the reasonable QoS implementations I know of count bytes and account for headers. Do have a counter example? > What I'm thinking is that at 64 kbps or slower, you probably want to > buffer 4 packets and no more, but also no less. At higher speeds, > I'm thinking 10 packets is really all you need, assuming a single > fifo / tail drop queue. Does anyone have data or arguments that > conflict with this? > > But do we want to recommend RED? I seem to remember it has fallen > somewhat out of favor, but is it worse than a simple tail drop > queue? With RED it's necessary to have more buffering in order to > let it work without tail drops happening anyway. So how much > buffering would that require? 20 packets? 40? > RED doesn't help in the split-box configuration since the big queues aren't in the home gateway, as I noted above. > Bob Briscoe just made the argument that weighted fair queuing > isolates flows from each other so they can't interact in useful > ways. So recommend against it? On the other hand, WFQ would make > VoIP etc work much better in the presence of some heavy flows. But > not as well as in the case where we specifically prioritize the real- > time traffic. > Interesting, but orthogonal in my view. > I'm guessing that we don't want to specify any default diffserv > behavior... > > Iljitsch > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From jhw@apple.com Wed Jul 29 01:59:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9D83A6F03; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:59:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.773 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.773 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.827, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D2JbI6OAsbt3; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out3.apple.com (mail-out3.apple.com [17.254.13.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3B03A6F3A; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F186BBA75A; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:59:15 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1180711d-b7ba7ae000001e96-f5-4a700f612de4 Received: from [17.151.92.183] (Unknown_Domain [17.151.92.183]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 19.38.07830.26F007A4; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1074) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:59:12 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: To: homegate@ietf.org, TSV Area X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1074) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Subject: Re: [homegate] Amount of packet buffering in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:59:29 -0000 On Jul 29, 2009, at 10:34, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > The question is, what do we want to tell home gateway builders? We should tell them that forwarding IP flows from higher bandwidth links into much lower bandwidth links generally produces better results when queues are only large enough to handle common burst sizes without loss and no larger. Unnecessarily large transmission queues may introduce persistently and perversely high path latency on fully loaded low-bandwidth links, producing severe negative effects on application throughput. Beyond that, I don't know what else we should say. Maybe it would help to give some guidance for various common sub-IP links. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From lars.eggert@nokia.com Wed Jul 29 02:06:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD543A6F62; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:06:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.566 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.566 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2F4x7xqv7Ra4; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844743A6F5B; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:225:ff:fe45:eccf] ([IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:225:ff:fe45:eccf]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.fit.nokia.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6T961pw003980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:06:02 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from lars.eggert@nokia.com) Message-Id: <68A1E2ED-774A-40B2-B0A5-8A2F7EF59753@nokia.com> From: Lars Eggert To: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-19--31783263; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:05:56 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.fit.nokia.com [IPv6:2001:2060:40:1::123]); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:06:03 +0300 (EEST) Cc: TSV Area , "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] [tsv-area] Amount of packet buffering in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:06:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail-19--31783263 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, On 2009-7-29, at 10:34, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > The question is, what do we want to tell home gateway builders? one half-baked idea is to tell them to provision buffering for some number of milliseconds of traffic (I'm using ms here instead of bytes, because that factors out link speeds) *and* use something better than FIFO (e.g., some AQM scheme) that you configure so that the target queue is a small fraction of that buffer. > But do we want to recommend RED? I seem to remember it has fallen > somewhat out of favor, but is it worse than a simple tail drop queue? I believe we want a queueing scheme that results in a short standing queue independent of how much buffer there is. Many AQM schemes (like RED) have that property, FIFO doesn't. We also do want ECN, so that whatever AQM scheme we recommend doesn't need to induce unnecessary losses in order to drive the queue size down. > Bob Briscoe just made the argument that weighted fair queuing isolates > flows from each other so they can't interact in useful ways. So > recommend against it? On the other hand, WFQ would make VoIP etc work > much better in the presence of some heavy flows. But not as well as in > the case where we specifically prioritize the real-time traffic. I don't think basic WFQ has the property that it builds short standing queues (but my queue fu is ten years old). > I'm guessing that we don't want to specify any default diffserv > behavior... Actually, I think recommending support for less-than-best-effort (e.g., RFC 3662) would be good. Lars --Apple-Mail-19--31783263 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGQDCCAvkw ggJioAMCAQICEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MDgyMzE3NDMzOVoXDTA5MDgyMzE3NDMz OVowXDEPMA0GA1UEBBMGRWdnZXJ0MQ0wCwYDVQQqEwRMYXJzMRQwEgYDVQQDEwtMYXJzIEVnZ2Vy dDEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYVbGFycy5lZ2dlcnRAbm9raWEuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAlwQVktJZCY89iU6jcW1XnZQN+aMgF2utCUT3H3ZKB5Jbet1SDWt0md/W 571bHjxtn9CfEJdochNL3l9f1WiJNdVbJ182557Ltx9SojqthpqtA0jKEqo2gqrf+raUj1demmo0 6ocsLqv046CrwidOp6k0RAfvkKPLhD4PD9Nk3oaZuxqBz1wY4u8Q83iWMArDeXiQxfNZnOBz5cDs VvVjTjitm3VANkbD02tNkwl5AHw7htde4yH8hIwlfzqsAtHBEah3HyOvs9b+gHg2pFz9eS+HuotY ZKycCweRs8NKXoCg+zAkVYi3zvZEH2VOuPlpMQMrB9+fLWg2UBsTeZ864wIDAQABozIwMDAgBgNV HREEGTAXgRVsYXJzLmVnZ2VydEBub2tpYS5jb20wDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUF AAOBgQBMdV2U+ryV5t3nuBFH19XKflodN6Bc60GBYHHY/Z0+Cl08Q75qzTt02IILBg+/YVh/fygb 6pFrOm1sFtLN7fENBfbO2VtpFjP2lGUgbXTVT5xGM6+MtqZiBI6LqexAeY6gsd/taoUfy9fZG42d ciBA9gSGlQjjWQyG8mb5HR8L9jCCAz8wggKooAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgdExCzAJ BgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgG A1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMg RGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3 DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3 MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5 KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAxKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9 fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkVcI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+ uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUqVIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMB Af8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMGA1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3 dGVQZXJzb25hbEZyZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgG A1UEAxMRUHJpdmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcP f6+svsIXoUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH 2ydxVyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU1341YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8x ggMQMIIDDAIBATB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAo UHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQ SLtZswwprYYsoWlANo4FATAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIIBbzAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcB MBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0wOTA3MjkwOTA1NTZaMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEWBBTCvKK346pZSXEK nudNaYQzZSf/RzCBhQYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMXgwdjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEwgYcGCyqGSIb3DQEJEAILMXigdjBiMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEEi7WbMMKa2GLKFpQDaOBQEw DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAAmKEIFtyURfBvBfBX0DyFALIvTlm5oWErxsWkCD7iStY/6nxiVaa 4qoZZEAf9NLJys2ABclhKyumnJ+tPVtALiY58s18U1DUDy6j7J6y3u16R+cExE1oedQNMigmL1Bn iyKLfAbngez+Rg0HeY9ECiA1t7dc0wc182veKGFYuMOmqx/PnkcMspH0u2CUPGX6UgXxpagrPf03 HiyZ3kpRDLXMRV7/p/xjwIZMhQ5Rb0/GsepfHLiaoRLDXB8yvpyrWUIPVOhfR8mfnslgWLKJIR4i 9UfLgJwBqexb6dfzjgNm+fNBGVZqgfGBoUBsUigdh/nTg2+O/+e6AbkBXAQnOAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-19--31783263-- From su.fei@zte.com.cn Wed Jul 29 08:14:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDA53A6A92; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.838 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.838 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id weC8gh+Ol3DU; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BCB23A6940; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.100] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 11164971850582; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:56:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.18] by [10.30.17.100] with StormMail ESMTP id 67619.971850582; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:07:07 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse1.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id n6TFEam8086865; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:14:36 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from su.fei@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: To: homegate@ietf.org Cc: homegate-bounces@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 March 27, 2005 Message-ID: From: su.fei@zte.com.cn Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:14:58 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 2009-07-29 23:14:21, Serialize complete at 2009-07-29 23:14:21 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0053B39148257602_=" X-MAIL: mse1.zte.com.cn n6TFEam8086865 Subject: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:14:53 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0053B39148257602_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Question of interest: Does the homegate take the frequency/time synchronization between devices into account ? Fei Su --=_alternative 0053B39148257602_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Question of interest: Does the homegate take the frequency/time synchronization between devices into account ?


Fei Su
--=_alternative 0053B39148257602_=-- From su.fei@zte.com.cn Wed Jul 29 08:15:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46543A6A92; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:15:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.305 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.305 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.533, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EtRdbQ7iDQOR; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx6.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [63.218.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE23B3A6D46; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.99] by mx6.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 9110971850582; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:01:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.18] by [10.30.17.99] with StormMail ESMTP id 51667.971850582; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:06:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse1.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id n6TFEqUV086927; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:14:52 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from su.fei@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homegate@ietf.org Cc: homegate-bounces@ietf.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 March 27, 2005 Message-ID: From: su.fei@zte.com.cn Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:15:12 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 2009-07-29 23:14:37, Serialize complete at 2009-07-29 23:14:37 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0053B92548257602_=" X-MAIL: mse1.zte.com.cn n6TFEqUV086927 Subject: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:15:09 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0053B92548257602_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Question of interest: Does the homegate take the frequency/time synchronization between devices into account ? Fei Su --=_alternative 0053B92548257602_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Question of interest: Does the homegate take the frequency/time synchronization between devices into account ?


Fei Su
--=_alternative 0053B92548257602_=-- From oran@cisco.com Wed Jul 29 08:17:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19963A6AF7 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VQFz8o82U3ps for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C53E3A6AA1 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAI8EcEqrR7PE/2dsb2JhbAC7fIgnLQiQAAWCRAiBRQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,289,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="180267771" Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2009 15:17:44 +0000 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6TFHi7E023744; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:17:44 -0700 Received: from sjc-vpnasa-589.cisco.com (sjc-vpnasa-589.cisco.com [10.21.106.80]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6TFHgaO022497; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:17:43 GMT Message-Id: From: David R Oran To: su.fei@zte.com.cn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:17:41 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=432; t=1248880664; x=1249744664; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=oran@cisco.com; z=From:=20David=20R=20Oran=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Timing=20and=20synchroniza tion=20needed=20in=20home=20gateways |Sender:=20; bh=qQiqEupOJ0KY7H34qB1wOVhEwGKml7aNlQnqif0OgHQ=; b=KOK5MFN1/fr9FZ6mCAB0Bt4XPWUxtOhFyQhO8A0hx9xnfdGPWke9PEfYuD ah1o8J+OOPrN6CFW0WPfW1PKxrEE+kBeUlJf9fI9IK02XGp+UF8++9p8kMZn 0kEQH9deYM; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=oran@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:17:44 -0000 On Jul 29, 2009, at 5:15 PM, su.fei@zte.com.cn wrote: > > Question of interest: Does the homegate take the frequency/time > synchronization between devices into account ? > Are you asking on whether it is important to write down a requirement to run NTP? > > Fei Su > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From fred@cisco.com Wed Jul 29 08:29:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB3D3A6F06 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.335, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Llx8JAnjv1eP for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E55B3A6E26 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnQAABMIcEqQ/uCKe2dsb2JhbACBUoEDlzcWJAahMYgnLQiQAQWCRAiBRQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,289,1246838400"; d="scan'208,217";a="46081610" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2009 15:29:18 +0000 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6TFTIQQ011815; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:29:18 +0200 Received: from dhcp-56c8.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-10-61-104-243.cisco.com [10.61.104.243]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6TFTInh006036; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:29:18 GMT Message-Id: From: Fred Baker To: su.fei@zte.com.cn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-103--8781410 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:29:18 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2476; t=1248881358; x=1249745358; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homegate]=20Timing=20and=20synchroniza tion=20needed=20in=20home=20gateways |Sender:=20; bh=sTaYzolLx3fMiRj4EOQitoNBuE9d88H67zBCd6HnT/w=; b=j3i5Dk/Jj57PAvnEBnjTmYoOTSxMa3w4ZWaObLT7ZC+jXlqjZRjEI1As66 bEjn5fTlUs7WP6L+u2MNrXiPpUXxU/eoafOzGNy1ElYB0mcsaqau3iTNPtct +AKePUH9Ds; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:29:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail-103--8781410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jul 29, 2009, at 5:15 PM, su.fei@zte.com.cn wrote: > Question of interest: Does the homegate take the frequency/time > synchronization between devices into account ? Let me return the question - does it need to? Routers, like other equipment, have the option of fairly fine-grain synchronization of their clocks using NTP, or more coarse synchronization using SNTP, and can go crazy with IEEE 1588. Most home routers today do none of those, and the assertion that there is no time-synchronous log or other reason to worry about it. Do you have a requirement for the home router to do that? --Apple-Mail-103--8781410 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Jul 29, 2009, = at 5:15 PM, su.fei@zte.com.cn = wrote:

Question of interest: Does the homegate take the = frequency/time synchronization between devices into account = ? 

Let me return the question - does it need to? Routers, like other = equipment, have the option of fairly fine-grain synchronization of their = clocks using NTP, or more coarse synchronization using SNTP, and can go = crazy with IEEE 1588. Most home routers today do none of those, and the = assertion that there is no time-synchronous log or other reason to worry = about it. Do you have a requirement for the home router to do = that?
= --Apple-Mail-103--8781410-- From lars.eggert@nokia.com Wed Jul 29 09:20:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2256E3A6AF0 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:20:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7xHqOidcqpPr for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DAD3A6A94 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-52bd.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-52bd.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.82.189] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.fit.nokia.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6TGKEvx010785 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:20:15 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from lars.eggert@nokia.com) Message-Id: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> From: Lars Eggert To: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-26--5726205; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:20:13 +0200 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.fit.nokia.com [195.148.124.194]); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:20:16 +0300 (EEST) Cc: "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:20:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail-26--5726205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, On 2009-7-29, at 17:29, Fred Baker wrote: > Let me return the question - does it need to? Routers, like other > equipment, have the option of fairly fine-grain synchronization of > their clocks using NTP, or more coarse synchronization using SNTP, > and can go crazy with IEEE 1588. Most home routers today do none of > those, and the assertion that there is no time-synchronous log or > other reason to worry about it. actually, every home router I had during the last 10 years at least did NTP, and the D-Link issue (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_server_misuse_and_abuse) also indicates that NTP support is being implemented. That said, it does mostly seem to be used for correct timestamps in whatever log is provided. (All those boxes had some sort of weg log and often even syslog.) > Do you have a requirement for the home router to do that? Agreed, it'd be interesting what this would be for. Timestamped logging in my personal view isn't essential enough to weigh down an IETF recommendation on home gateways with NTP support. 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Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:32:01 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from su.fei@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> To: Lars Eggert MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 March 27, 2005 Message-ID: From: su.fei@zte.com.cn Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:32:21 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 2009-07-30 00:31:44, Serialize complete at 2009-07-30 00:31:44 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 005AC92F48257602_=" X-MAIL: mse1.zte.com.cn n6TGW1Rw001494 Cc: "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: [homegate] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogUmU6ICBUaW1pbmcgYW5kIHN5bmNocm9u?= =?gb2312?b?aXphdGlvbiBuZWVkZWQgaW4gaG9tZSBnYXRld2F5cw==?= X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:31:48 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 005AC92F48257602_= Content-Type: text/plain; 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Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:49:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.913, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3YAZHDaW168l for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postlady.ripe.net (postlady.ripe.net [193.0.19.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE0A3A67D2 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from herring.ripe.net ([193.0.1.203]) by postlady.ripe.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MWCL1-0006Px-Mg; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:49:17 +0200 Received: from dhcp-13e9.meeting.ietf.org (henk.vpn.ripe.net [193.0.21.33]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB0C2F583; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:49:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A707D87.3030903@ripe.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:49:11 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Macintosh/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lars Eggert References: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: ---- X-RIPE-Signature: e0cdef1f45f89a40ad608d255b27e7d58a5aee102599a90fceaccb82cf286ba8 Cc: "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:49:19 -0000 Lars Eggert wrote: >> Do you have a requirement for the home router to do that? > > Agreed, it'd be interesting what this would be for. Timestamped logging > in my personal view isn't essential enough to weigh down an IETF > recommendation on home gateways with NTP support. Some years ago, I was involved in a project where code was added to home gateways to do performance measurements. The idea was to store the data on a $5 memory USB stick in the box (one can store a lot on that). If a user complained about issues with his connection, the ISP would have some real data to look at rather than having to deal with vague statements from users. It could also be used to exclude a whole bunch of typical problems on the spot, without the helpdesk having to go through all kinds of exercises with the user. (For example, the user cannot get his mail, but the data says that the port on the mailserver responds, that excludes a bunch of things). The project never got anywhere, though I still think that this is a good idea. Anyway, setups like this does require that the box has an idea about global time and this requires the ability to run NTP or similar. Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Belgium: an unsolvable problem, discussed in endless meetings, with no hope for a solution, where everybody still lives happily. From kirk.erichsen@twcable.com Wed Jul 29 09:58:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C2D3A67D2 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:58:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cGH5F5sjQVHw for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pblpas02.twcable.com (pblpas02.twcable.com [204.235.121.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD333A6774 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:58:26 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.157.247.211 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,289,1246852800"; d="scan'208";a="437469362" Received: from unknown (HELO prvpmailconn1.corp.twcable.com) ([10.157.247.211]) by pblpas02.twcable.com with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2009 12:58:27 -0400 Received: from PRVPVSMAIL10.corp.twcable.com ([10.157.194.199]) by prvpmailconn1.corp.twcable.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:58:27 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:58:27 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways Thread-Index: AcoQbIjt1LXw4/EDQeSWEuuC2k6bLgAAHA9G References: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> <4A707D87.3030903@ripe.net> From: "Erichsen, Kirk" To: "Henk Uijterwaal" , "Lars Eggert" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2009 16:58:27.0721 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB073F90:01CA106D] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:58:27 -0000 Homegate Scope question: - How far should we go?=20 =20 Do we incorporate all typical cases and leave room for specific delivery mo= dels that go above and beyond what constitutes as core functionality? My ne= eds for performance measurement may not be the same as another ISP, should = we thus:=20 =20 1) Specify such functionality as optional (and other features that while us= eful aren't necessarily "universally" so) 2) refer to such functionality with informational text without specifying a= nything, or x-ref to a spec that covers these use cases 3) remain silient on the topic and allow the ISP and their choice of vendor= to add such functionality as a product spec vs. a generic industry spec.=20 =20 We might start by defining "core" functionality and then "advanced" functio= nality that straps to that core and adds useful features. Whether "advanced= " is the same as "optional" (in my view, it may well be) should be discusse= d. =20 Thoughts? This frames, in general, where I'd like to start seeing us knock = some stakes into the ground, defining some boundaries on what we do within = the HomeGate and gel the charter's scope a bit around that. =20 -KE ________________________________ From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Henk Uijterwaal Sent: Wed 7/29/2009 10:49 AM To: Lars Eggert Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways Lars Eggert wrote: >> Do you have a requirement for the home router to do that? > > Agreed, it'd be interesting what this would be for. Timestamped logging > in my personal view isn't essential enough to weigh down an IETF > recommendation on home gateways with NTP support. Some years ago, I was involved in a project where code was added to home gateways to do performance measurements. The idea was to store the data on a $5 memory USB stick in the box (one can store a lot on that). If a user complained about issues with his connection, the ISP would have some real data to look at rather than having to deal with vague statements from users. It could also be used to exclude a whole bunch of typical problems on the spot, without the helpdesk having to go through all kinds of exercises with the user. (For example, the user cannot get his mail, but the data says that the port on the mailserver responds, that excludes a bunch of things). The project never got anywhere, though I still think that this is a good idea. Anyway, setups like this does require that the box has an idea about global time and this requires the ability to run NTP or similar. Henk -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Belgium: an unsolvable problem, discussed in endless meetings, with no hope for a solution, where everybody still lives happily. _______________________________________________ homegate mailing list homegate@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. From oran@cisco.com Wed Jul 29 10:31:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6943A6774 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:31:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id neV9u0tGeq6H for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821CB3A6992 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:31:00 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEADMkcEqrR7MV/2dsb2JhbAC8JognkEAFAoIvBoFagU4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,289,1246838400"; d="scan'208";a="180323995" Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2009 17:31:02 +0000 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6THV2LJ007696; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:31:02 -0700 Received: from sjc-vpnasa-704.cisco.com (sjc-vpnasa-704.cisco.com [10.21.106.195]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6THUuP0019117; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:30:57 GMT Message-Id: From: David R Oran To: "Erichsen, Kirk" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:30:55 +0200 References: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> <4A707D87.3030903@ripe.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=6775; t=1248888662; x=1249752662; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=oran@cisco.com; z=From:=20David=20R=20Oran=20 |Subject:=20Subject=20line=20change=3A=20how=20to=20we=20ma ke=20progress=20on=20scoping=20the=20Homegate=20effort? |Sender:=20; bh=07Xo3hdwsfHP7OxawcPOA2TE/ORkAWWOr5fdaz8y6Hg=; b=rg3QmxV0YdUgxuXgbjOiIV2dj4OVvynpOPbidWKE6esu+camQDUOKHKa1b EhjGT5nuEXa0iUhhZ38H6x1SgLA1W7lstDr9GLB0duVfI2l52piO7LFVgv+x sP1QMjG6TyFKwC4IchM3hGj/fPp3VqvaJSbnDwxKdSlS7rw50uFHY=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=oran@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: [homegate] Subject line change: how to we make progress on scoping the Homegate effort? X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:31:01 -0000 On Jul 29, 2009, at 6:58 PM, Erichsen, Kirk wrote: > Homegate Scope question: - How far should we go? > > Do we incorporate all typical cases and leave room for specific > delivery models that go above and beyond what constitutes as core > functionality? My needs for performance measurement may not be the > same as another ISP, should we thus: > > 1) Specify such functionality as optional (and other features that > while useful aren't necessarily "universally" so) > 2) refer to such functionality with informational text without > specifying anything, or x-ref to a spec that covers these use cases > 3) remain silient on the topic and allow the ISP and their choice of > vendor to add such functionality as a product spec vs. a generic > industry spec. > > We might start by defining "core" functionality and then "advanced" > functionality that straps to that core and adds useful features. > Whether "advanced" is the same as "optional" (in my view, it may > well be) should be discussed. > > Thoughts? This frames, in general, where I'd like to start seeing us > knock some stakes into the ground, defining some boundaries on what > we do within the HomeGate and gel the charter's scope a bit around > that. > My personal view is that we should start with a goal to specify as little as possible - those things that are crucially needed to ensure that the Internet works for the home user. In order to do this I think (again personal hat on) we should: - avoid inventing protocols, unless absolutely needed to do a critical function for *using the Internet*. I would be personally very surprised if there were crucial functions for which we don't have adequate protocols today - avoid writing long feature lists, but refer to existing RFCs, clarifying the requirement where we believe things have gone off the rails in the past, or are likely to do off the rails in the future. At the BoF I think we did identify a few of these in the areas of IPv6 support, ECN operation and DNS. A "SOHO-edge Router Requirements" document could be a decent vehicle to accomplish this. - try to agree on a set of topologies that are expected to work if you follow the BCP specification (perhaps as part of the specification) so that we are all on the same page with respect to the need for things like: - multiple subnets on a single L2 multi-switch or single switch LAN - Cascaded routers/NATs - parallel OHO-edge boxes with uplinks to different providers - not re-invent the work done in other places like BBF, HGI, DLNA, etc. especially for features/services/provisioning of the connection between the SOHO and the service provider at the other end of an access network link (eg. DSL, DOCSIS, WiMAX, FTTH). - attempt to meet the goal James Woodyatt articulated of having zero- configuration needed to come up in a predictable *operational* state (again apart from the pieces mandated by the serice provider to connect to their network). Also nie would be to somehow require that any manufacturer-specified "factory reset" function return the box to this state. There are likely other similar goals/requirements that I've missed, and conversely things I should have thought to exclude but didn't. How about we have people produce strawman requirements of like the ones we wrote above. Then we can gather them and discuss them, perhaps by setting up a Wiki somewhere? DaveO. > -KE > > ________________________________ > > From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Henk Uijterwaal > Sent: Wed 7/29/2009 10:49 AM > To: Lars Eggert > Cc: homegate@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home > gateways > > > > Lars Eggert wrote: > >>> Do you have a requirement for the home router to do that? >> >> Agreed, it'd be interesting what this would be for. Timestamped >> logging >> in my personal view isn't essential enough to weigh down an IETF >> recommendation on home gateways with NTP support. > > Some years ago, I was involved in a project where code was added to > home gateways to do performance measurements. The idea was to > store the data on a $5 memory USB stick in the box (one can store > a lot on that). If a user complained about issues with his > connection, > the ISP would have some real data to look at rather than having to > deal with vague statements from users. It could also be used to > exclude a whole bunch of typical problems on the spot, without > the helpdesk having to go through all kinds of exercises with the > user. (For example, the user cannot get his mail, but the data > says that the port on the mailserver responds, that excludes a > bunch of things). The project never got anywhere, though I still > think that this is a good idea. > > Anyway, setups like this does require that the box has an idea about > global > time and this requires the ability to run NTP or similar. > > Henk > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Henk Uijterwaal Email: > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Belgium: an unsolvable problem, discussed in endless meetings, with no > hope for a solution, where everybody still lives happily. > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > > > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner > Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, > or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail > is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which > it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this > E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents > of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be > unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify > the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any > copy of this E-mail and any printout. > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Wed Jul 29 10:38:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EC813A6D46; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.544 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.544 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDLHcSmp5shH; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.nominet.org.uk (mx3.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EA03A6D3B; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:38:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=FxqcPoMkwdjYQySc9zfBfEyiWTJTnLjbynBqsqbUG5hjtMH1YLolqkB4 7/b9TPkAeZluyX7hGiSuJxD85m2zerzOj2Lyk7cusbwlfW0z2x2WI3C00 kcEhb02AD9oq2a8; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1248889114; x=1280425114; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[home gate]=20Timing=20and=20synchronization=20needed=20in=20ho me=20gateways|Date:=20Wed,=2029=20Jul=202009=2019:38:27 =20+0200|Message-ID:=20|To:=20Lars=20Egg ert=20|Cc:=20Fred=20Baker=20,=0D=0A=09"homegate@ietf.org"=20,=0D=0A=09homegate-bounces@ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201 .0|In-Reply-To:=20<811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@n okia.com>|References:=20=09=20<811B6F4D-851A-435D-867 4-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com>; bh=x42deSKNToeuu2k9B6TT7Y9LX/uXhK6o1s1qb3SRaac=; b=JVRyu8WX894RNO41nlLew/SA8v64RwEHzNnbSYRC8dNHS7fpoWDJUIm/ L6y7hOqMIjNUAIZR8Q4nK5jCtvGJVJQ4niJnIQG1ytIo2UcIQo2O0NNGN Dqxno+G9Lornh2w; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,289,1246834800"; d="scan'208";a="16234625" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2009 18:38:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> References: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> To: Lars Eggert MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:38:27 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 29/07/2009 06:38:29 PM, Serialize complete at 29/07/2009 06:38:29 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0060E757C1257602_=" Cc: homegate-bounces@ietf.org, "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:38:33 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0060E757C1257602_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Agreed, it'd be interesting what this would be for. Timestamped > logging in my personal view isn't essential enough to weigh down an > IETF recommendation on home gateways with NTP support. According to a very recent meeting I had with UK government and law enforcement people it would be very useful for forensic purposes. Not only that, but for certain log information (DHCP leases, etc) it would be desirable for that information to persist between reboots. That said, IMHO I think this falls under the HGI / BBF sphere of requirements (and not IETF's) since it is not related to interoperability nor needed for correct operation of client machines. Ray --=_alternative 0060E757C1257602_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Agreed, it'd be interesting what this would be for. Timestamped  
> logging in my personal view isn't essential enough to weigh down an  
> IETF recommendation on home gateways with NTP support.

According to a very recent meeting I had with UK government and law enforcement people it would be very useful for forensic purposes.  Not only that, but for certain log information (DHCP leases, etc) it would be desirable for that information to persist between reboots.

That said, IMHO I think this falls under the HGI / BBF sphere of requirements (and not IETF's) since it is not related to interoperability nor needed for correct operation of client machines.

Ray


--=_alternative 0060E757C1257602_=-- From swmike@swm.pp.se Wed Jul 29 11:15:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173F33A7094 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:15:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.334, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id htfh5qf3UkEo for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE4F3A707B for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id EC6369E; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:15:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADD19A for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:15:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:15:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "homegate@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <811B6F4D-851A-435D-8674-2FA2AA46D8E0@nokia.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [homegate] Timing and synchronization needed in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:15:06 -0000 >> Agreed, it'd be interesting what this would be for. Timestamped >> logging in my personal view isn't essential enough to weigh down an >> IETF recommendation on home gateways with NTP support. I'm not sure if this is the IETF that should say this or not, but I'd prefer that it *somewhere* was recommended to vendors that any timestamp produced should be clearly marked whether it had a traceable time back to NTP or alike, or not. Producing timestamps that you have no idea whether they are correct or not is almost worse than nothing at all. I prefer "time since boot" or alike if you have no idea what the time is. It might be ok with just SNTP or other mechanism more lightweight than NTP that is done on a regular basis. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From richard@bennett.com Wed Jul 29 14:29:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DFE3A6F80 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:29:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.965 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.965 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vdykNL7QvLQh for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound-mail-137.bluehost.com (outbound-mail-137.bluehost.com [67.222.39.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 171263A6EF9 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11872 invoked by uid 0); 29 Jul 2009 21:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO host308.hostmonster.com) (74.220.215.108) by outboundproxy4.bluehost.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 2009 21:21:58 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=bennett.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Identified-User; b=KFDtnq7q4cqVvOb4FO7jGgT2k1BAa7uLKSCy1YfytbFpdyulaX5Wmyhwwl5wwxKvm40+b6TbknANwClmJ8B13k3ZDjHk2yyOpXNXbu+MC8KAnJoKmKVVoHnR/5Eqn9tI; Received: from c-24-5-230-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([24.5.230.26] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by host308.hostmonster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MWGaz-0005eE-U9; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:21:58 -0600 Message-ID: <4A70BD60.5050205@bennett.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:21:36 -0700 From: Richard Bennett User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David R Oran References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {5842:host308.hostmonster.com:bennett1:bennett.com} {sentby:smtp auth 24.5.230.26 authed with richard+bennett.com} Cc: TSV Area , homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Amount of packet buffering in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:29:04 -0000 David R Oran wrote: > HGI and others (e.g. DLNA) do in fact have specs for this kind of > stuff. I'll refrain from commenting on what I think of their quality. > I think the group might consider taking some of this on, however I > urge caution for a number of reasons including: > - focus for the group > - bleed-over into net neutrality issues > - service definition and provisioning of device queues by the service > provider versus the consumer. I'm not sure what Homegate has to do with "net neutrality issues." If net neutrality means anything at all, it's the demand by certain private network operators, most notably Google, to have unfettered access to first/last mile residential broadband networks. Google wants to bypass the public Internet and install edge caches directly on the L2 network, in other words. Aren't private network-to-private network issues are outside the scope of IETF? Under other definitions of net neutrality, ISP behavior is circumscribed in various ways, but end-user behavior isn't. Given that home gateways are (at least to some extent) end-user controlled devices, NN also wouldn't apply to them under this more fuzzy definition. NN is in any case a US issues, so I don't see why the international community should care about it. What am I missing? RB -- Richard Bennett Research Fellow Information Technology and Innovation Foundation Washington, DC From duncan_bees@telus.net Wed Jul 29 15:56:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB663A68A1; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:56:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.425 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.425 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.097, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wSQb1lacOcfo; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from defout.telus.net (defout.telus.net [204.209.205.55]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127B43A6AC6; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edmwes94 ([204.209.205.55]) by priv-edmwes26.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.7.08.04.00 201-2186-134-20080326) with ESMTP id <20090729225615.HRCZ22448.priv-edmwes26.telusplanet.net@priv-edmwes94>; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:56:15 -0600 Received: from 24.85.224.240 ([24.85.224.240]) by priv-edmwes94 (TELUS Webmail) with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:56:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:56:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Duncan To: richard@bennett.com Message-ID: <28037892.774468.1248908175223.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: TELUS Webmail X-Originating-IP: [24.85.224.240] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:14:54 -0700 Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Amount of packet buffering in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:56:17 -0000

Hi all,

=C2=A0

Yes, in fact HGI has looked at the QoS architecture including queue= requirements and latency avoidance and have issued rather detailed recomme= ndations that meet the Service Provider requirements for delivery of servic= es. We would be pleased to explain the QoS approach.

=C2=A0

E.g., we can look at setting up a c= onference call for HGI to explain this to the Homegate list if there is suf= ficient interest. If there are concerns with aspects of our work, (as impli= ed in the message below and as stated during the Bar BoF), then we'd also w= elcome specific feedback.

=C2=A0

Note that we have a Test Event in the near future to look at imp= lementations of the HGI QoS requirements.

=C2=A0<= /font>

Best Regards

Duncan

=C2=A0

Duncan Bees

Chief Technical & Business Officer, Home Gateway I= nitiative Vancouver, Canada duncan.bees@hom= egateway.org or duncan_bees@telus.net mobile +1.604.418.8997

skype: duncan.bees= 1

www.hom= egateway.org

=C2=A0



= On Jul 29, 2009, Richard Bennett <richard@bennett.com&g= t; wrote:

David R Oran= wrote:
> HGI and others (e.g. DLNA) do in fact have specs for this= kind of
> stuff. I'll refrain from commenting on what I think of = their quality.
> I think the group might consider taking some of t= his on, however I
> urge caution for a number of reasons including= :
> - focus for the group
> - bleed-over into net neutralit= y issues
> - service definition and provisioning of device queues b= y the service
> provider versus the consumer.
I'm not sure wh= at Homegate has to do with "net neutrality issues." If
net neutrality= means anything at all, it's the demand by certain private
network op= erators, most notably Google, to have unfettered access to
first/last= mile residential broadband networks. Google wants to bypass
the publ= ic Internet and install edge caches directly on the L2 network,
in ot= her words. Aren't private network-to-private network issues are
outsi= de the scope of IETF?

Under other definitions of net neutrality,= ISP behavior is circumscribed
in various ways, but end-user behavior= isn't. Given that home gateways
are (at least to some extent) end-us= er controlled devices, NN also
wouldn't apply to them under this more= fuzzy definition.

NN is in any case a US issues, so I don't see= why the international
community should care about it. What am I miss= ing?

RB

--
Richard Bennett
Research Fellow=
Information Technology and Innovation Foundation
Washington, DC<= br />
_______________________________________________
homegate ma= iling list
homegate@ietf.org
https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate
From swmike@swm.pp.se Wed Jul 29 23:56:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A693A68A3; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I1Z-EdMsMoYB; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4490E3A6B7E; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id B31689E; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:56:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07199A; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:56:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:56:00 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: tsv-area@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <28037892.774468.1248908175223.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94> Message-ID: References: <28037892.774468.1248908175223.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Amount of packet buffering in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 06:56:05 -0000 I'd say that in the long run (it was like this when I deployed ethernet dslams 6+ years ago) we're headed for the same kind of behaviour in the ISP end as ETTH switches has today, ie few milliseconds of buffers and 4 strict prio queues (think ETTH but with VDSL2 as PHY instead of 100BASE-T). So if the ISP->CPE path behaves like this, would it perhaps be nice to have the CPE->ISP direction behave the same way? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From richard@bennett.com Thu Jul 30 04:14:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A8E28C1E3 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 04:14:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.615 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OfEOHCDTtQ91 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 04:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound-mail-304.bluehost.com (outbound-mail-304.bluehost.com [67.222.53.250]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EC9B23A6C32 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 04:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2288 invoked by uid 0); 30 Jul 2009 11:07:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO host308.hostmonster.com) (74.220.215.108) by outboundproxy6.bluehost.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2009 11:07:34 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=bennett.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Identified-User; b=YJwh+RBa7CszU0S5IgZr4QBXFQyQajK6riX1z4zAzVBqFDvEAllqV4tGBRLmNb1ooQ735lF914EhGqQu/TP+gqfsUanJE18vneYkk7NbUegiLzJRmNMyP/oCrPoMVz0L; Received: from c-24-5-230-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([24.5.230.26] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by host308.hostmonster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MWTTx-0004gF-Uq; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 05:07:34 -0600 Message-ID: <4A717EDC.5040809@bennett.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 04:07:08 -0700 From: Richard Bennett User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikael Abrahamsson References: <28037892.774468.1248908175223.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {5842:host308.hostmonster.com:bennett1:bennett.com} {sentby:smtp auth 24.5.230.26 authed with richard+bennett.com} Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] [tsv-area] Amount of packet buffering in home gateways X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:14:56 -0000 IEEE 802.11e specifies four strict levels of priority as well, as these are validated by the Wi-Fi Alliance WMM compliance suite. The IEEE standard tells how to map these four levels onto the 802.1q priorities as well. Similar systems exist for MoCA and Home Plug. So my answer would be yeah, let the user have control over the priority of the transmissions he sends from his home or office LAN to his ISP, and let the ISP handle them as well as they're able. Diffserv can carry these markings as far as it goes, and with the right kind of peering or transit agreements, that might be a very long way. RB Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > I'd say that in the long run (it was like this when I deployed > ethernet dslams 6+ years ago) we're headed for the same kind of > behaviour in the ISP end as ETTH switches has today, ie few > milliseconds of buffers and 4 strict prio queues (think ETTH but with > VDSL2 as PHY instead of 100BASE-T). > > So if the ISP->CPE path behaves like this, would it perhaps be nice to > have the CPE->ISP direction behave the same way? > -- Richard Bennett Research Fellow Information Technology and Innovation Foundation Washington, DC