Hi Dan, all,<= /o:p>

Apologies for the delay to answer this message.

Please = see inline.

Cheers,

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>Med=

De : Dan Wing [m= ailto:dwing@cisco.com]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 4 d=E9cembre 201= 3 00:49
=C0 : sarikaya@ieee.org
Cc : hiaps@ie= tf.org; Xueli; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de
Ob= jet : Re: [hiaps] Hiaps use cases

On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:08 AM, Behcet= Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.= com> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:

=

On Dec 2, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com= > wrote:

I started a new tread on the use case i= ssue that Med brought up.

Based on= what Med said in his previous mail:

>IMHO before having solution-o= riented discussion, let's see first if people
>understand well the p= roblem space and the set of use cases identified
>so far.<= /p>

for this we currently have:
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-boucadair-inta= rea-host-identifier-scenarios-03.txt

It lists:

=A0=A0 (1)=A0 Section 3.1: Carrier Grade NAT (CGN)=

=A0=A0 (2)=A0 Section 3.2: A+P (e.g., MAP )

=A0=A0 (3)=A0 Section 3.3: Application Proxies

=A0=A0 (4)=A0 Section 3.4: Provider Wi-Fi

=A0=A0 =
(5)=A0 Section 3.5: Policy and Charging Architectures

=
=A0=A0 (6)=A0 Section 3.6: Cellular Networks

=A0=A0 (7=
)=A0 Section 3.7: Femtocells

=A0=A0 (8)=A0 Section 3.8=
: Overlay Networks (e.g., CDNs)

=A0=A0 (9)=A0 Section =
3.9: Emergency Calls

<= /o:p>

Are these use case well understood? An= y issues with them?

I understand = the first 4. I understand the rest less. Specifically, overlay = networks (8) I understand because I have chatted several times with Brandon= , but the I-D doesn't adequately motivate the use-case. Emergency cal= ls (9) is all over the map -- discusses solutions (which I believe is out o= f scope for the document, or should be?), some of which cannot work (specif= ically the location when using VPN cannot work).

[Med] Some solutions are= listed in that section to further explain why these solutions are not suff= icient to address the problem. The text can be cleaned to focus only on the= problem space. That’s fair.

&nbs= p;Not sure of use-case #5

[Med] The issue here is how to correlate between= the information received from the application function (mainly an external= IP address/port assigned by the NAT), with the internal information receiv= ed from the PEP (mainly the internal IP address/port number).

, 6=

[Med] This issue is similar to th= e CGN case. This section can be merged with 3.1. =

, or 7

-d

&nbs= p;

= There is also interest in combining Med's use cases draft with the prefix s= haring use case draft and also in the process concentrating on some of them= like emergency calls, CGNs and prefix sharing.

What do you think?

Behcet

but none of those= are the 'roaming' situation which I believe Dirk von Hugo was concerned wi= th, where he wanted an identifier to persist across network attach points. = (Veering into solutions, I wonder if an MPTCP-like connection identif= ier would solve the problem, even if MPTCP itself isn't used).

-d

<= blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm= 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>

&nbs= p;

= and
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-sarikaya= -aps-prefix-sharing-usecase-00.txt

We are expecting a new draft on th= is and I know we already have some people working on it.

Regards,

Behcet

_______________________________________________
= hiaps mailing list
h= iaps@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hiaps

<= /div>

= --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC42ECPUEXCB1Bnante_-- From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Wed Jan 15 06:12:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8250D1AE0D2 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:12:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jHTnduowtcdZ for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935351ADFF8 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by omfedm13.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4781432426A; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:11:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from PUEXCH41.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.30]) by omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 20B2A238048; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:11:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.9]) by PUEXCH41.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.30]) with mapi; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:11:46 +0100 From: To: "Roland.Schott@telekom.de" , "dwing@cisco.com" , "sarikaya@ieee.org" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:11:45 +0100 Thread-Topic: [hiaps] Hiaps use cases Thread-Index: Ac7wglGajninLQZAQAK81fNj2YUgkwAV2QUQCEgkkYA= Message-ID: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC42F8@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <726C15B0-DC5F-4438-8EEE-EEA650CE562E@cisco.com> <2DD9F847-2802-49D5-8118-0CBCEE22F855@cisco.com> <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D18DE8F3762@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> In-Reply-To: <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D18DE8F3762@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC42F8PUEXCB1Bnante_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.1.14.55715 Cc: "hiaps@ietf.org" , "xueli@huawei.com" , "Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de" Subject: Re: [hiaps] Hiaps use cases X-BeenThere: hiaps@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Host Identification, Address and Prefix Sharing in Wi-Fi Access \(hiaps\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:12:03 -0000 --_004_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC42F8PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC42F8PUEXCB1Bnante_" --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC42F8PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Roland, Apologies for the delay to answer this message. Please see inline. Cheers, Med De : Roland.Schott@telekom.de [mailto:Roland.Schott@telekom.de] Envoy=E9 : mercredi 4 d=E9cembre 2013 11:36 =C0 : dwing@cisco.com; sarikaya@ieee.org Cc : hiaps@ietf.org; Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; x= ueli@huawei.com Objet : AW: [hiaps] Hiaps use cases Hi all, regarding (5) Section 3.5: Policy and Charging Architectures RS: I do not understand why double NAT is not described or allowed [Med] Where do you want to position the second NAT? (6) Section 3.6: Cellular Networks RS: do we have here also the use case for using private Ipv4 addresses? [Med] Yes. (7) Section 3.7: Femtocells RS: this use case seems similar to the WiFi use case and belongs IMHO to the "use case" heterogeneous networks in general [Med] Makes sense. Suggestions to re-organise the text are more than welcom= e. (9) Section 3.9: Emergency Calls RS: This is a general use case and must be discussed for all use cases [Med] Not sure I got your point here. The issue captured in this use case i= s to determine which location server need to be contacted to get the locati= on of the caller. What about the use case where mobile and/or fixed access are backup links f= or each other, e.g. BBF use case? [Med] Increasing the serviceability of the RG can be indeed ensured by back= up lines; with or without maintaining the same address assigned to the RG. = I can understand also the backup procedure can be implemented with or witho= ut preserving session continuity. Now back to the host identification issue= , can you explicit which issue are you referring to? Thanks. Is it included in Overlay Networks? [cid:image001.png@01CF1203.432B5970] Regards Roland Von: hiaps [mailto:hiaps-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Dan Wing Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Dezember 2013 00:49 An: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: hiaps@ietf.org; von Hugo, Dirk; Mohamed Boucadai= r; Xueli Betreff: Re: [hiaps] Hiaps use cases On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:08 AM, Behcet Sarikaya > wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Dan Wing > wrote: On Dec 2, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Behcet Sarikaya > wrote: I started a new tread on the use case issue that Med brought up. Based on what Med said in his previous mail: >IMHO before having solution-oriented discussion, let's see first if people >understand well the problem space and the set of use cases identified >so far. for this we currently have: http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-boucadair-intarea-host-identifier-scenarios-= 03.txt It lists: (1) Section 3.1: Carrier Grade NAT (CGN) (2) Section 3.2: A+P (e.g., MAP ) (3) Section 3.3: Application Proxies (4) Section 3.4: Provider Wi-Fi (5) Section 3.5: Policy and Charging Architectures (6) Section 3.6: Cellular Networks (7) Section 3.7: Femtocells (8) Section 3.8: Overlay Networks (e.g., CDNs) (9) Section 3.9: Emergency Calls Are these use case well understood? Any issues with them? I understand the first 4. I understand the rest less. Specifically, overl= ay networks (8) I understand because I have chatted several times with Bran= don, but the I-D doesn't adequately motivate the use-case. Emergency calls= (9) is all over the map -- discusses solutions (which I believe is out of = scope for the document, or should be?), some of which cannot work (specific= ally the location when using VPN cannot work). Not sure of use-case #5, 6,= or 7. -d There is also interest in combining Med's use cases draft with the prefix s= haring use case draft and also in the process concentrating on some of them= like emergency calls, CGNs and prefix sharing. What do you think? Behcet but none of those are the 'roaming' situation which I believe Dirk von Hugo= was concerned with, where he wanted an identifier to persist across networ= k attach points. (Veering into solutions, I wonder if an MPTCP-like connec= tion identifier would solve the problem, even if MPTCP itself isn't used). -d and http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-sarikaya-aps-prefix-sharing-usecase-00.txt We are expecting a new draft on this and I know we already have some people= working on it. Regards, Behcet _______________________________________________ hiaps mailing list hiaps@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hiaps --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC42F8PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Roland,<= /o:p>

Apologies for the delay to answer this message.

Please s= ee inline.

Cheers,

Med<= o:p>

De : Roland.Schot= t@telekom.de [mailto:Roland.Schott@telekom.de]
Envoy=E9 : m= ercredi 4 d=E9cembre 2013 11:36
=C0 : dwing@cisco.com; sarik= aya@ieee.org
Cc : hiaps@ietf.org; Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de; = BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; xueli@huawei.com
Objet : AW: [hia= ps] Hiaps use cases

<= o:p>

Hi all,

regarding

   (5)  Section 3.5: Policy and Charging Architectu=
res

RS: I do not understand why double NAT is not=
 described or allowed

[Med] Where do you want to position the second NAT?=

  =
; (6)  Section 3.6: Cellular Networks

RS: do=
 we have here also the use case for using private

Ipv4 addresses?

[Med] Yes.

 <=
/o:p>

   (7)  Section 3.=
7: Femtocells

RS: this use case seems similar to =
the WiFi use case and

belong=
s IMHO to the “use case” heterogeneous networks in general=

[M=
ed] Makes sense. Suggestions to re-organise the text are more than welcome.=

= ; (9) Section 3.9: Emergency Calls

RS: This is a gene= ral use case and must be discussed for all use cases

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>[Med] Not sure I got your point here. = The issue captured in this use case is to determine which location server n= eed to be contacted to get the location of the caller.

&n= bsp;

What about the use case where mobile and/or fixed access are back= up links for each other,

e.g. BBF us= e case?

[Med] Increasing the serviceability of the RG= can be indeed ensured by backup lines; with or without maintaining the sam= e address assigned to the RG. I can understand also the backup procedure ca= n be implemented with or without preserving session continuity. Now back to= the host identification issue, can you explicit which issue are you referr= ing to? Thanks.

Is it includ= ed in Overlay Networks?

= ;

Regards

Roland

Von: hiaps [mailto:hiaps-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Dan Wing
Gesendet:= Mittwoch, 4. Dezember 2013 00:49
An: sarikaya@iee= e.org
Cc: h= iaps@ietf.org; von Hugo, Dirk; Mohamed Boucadair; Xueli
Betreff:<= /b> Re: [hiaps] Hiaps use cases

On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:08 AM, Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, De= c 2, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:

=
On Dec 2, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Behcet Sar= ikaya <sarik= aya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

I started a new tread = on the use case issue that Med brought up.

Based on what Med said in his previous mail= :

>IMHO before having solution-oriented disc= ussion, let's see first if people
>understand well the problem space= and the set of use cases identified
>so far.

for this we currently have: <= br>http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bouc= adair-intarea-host-identifier-scenarios-03.txt

<= /span>

It lists:

   (1)  Section 3.1: Carrier Gr=
ade NAT (CGN)

   (2)&=
nbsp; Section 3.2: A+P (e.g., MAP )

   (3)  Section 3.3: Application Proxies

   (4)  Section 3.4: Provider=
 Wi-Fi

   (5)  S=
ection 3.5: Policy and Charging Architectures

<=
span lang=3DDE>   (6)  Section 3.6: Cellular Networks

   (7)  Section 3.7: F=
emtocells

   (8) =
; Section 3.8: Overlay Networks (e.g., CDNs)

   (9)  Section 3.9: Emergency Calls

Are these use case well understood? Any issues with them?

I u= nderstand the first 4. I understand the rest less. Specifically= , overlay networks (8) I understand because I have chatted several times wi= th Brandon, but the I-D doesn't adequately motivate the use-case. Eme= rgency calls (9) is all over the map -- discusses solutions (which I believ= e is out of scope for the document, or should be?), some of which cannot wo= rk (specifically the location when using VPN cannot work). Not sure o= f use-case #5, 6, or 7.

-d

There is also interest in combining Med's use cases draft with th= e prefix sharing use case draft and also in the process concentrating on so= me of them like emergency calls, CGNs and prefix sharing.=
What do you think?
Behcet

but none of those are the = 'roaming' situation which I believe Dirk von Hugo was concerned with, where= he wanted an identifier to persist across network attach points. (Ve= ering into solutions, I wonder if an MPTCP-like connection identifier would= solve the problem, even if MPTCP itself isn't used).
=

-d

<= /div>

=

=
<= span lang=3DDE>and
http://tools.ietf.org/id= /draft-sarikaya-aps-prefix-sharing-usecase-00.txt
=
We are expecting a new draft on this and I know we already have some = people working on it.
Regards,
Behcet<= /p>
_________________= ______________________________
hiaps mailing list
hiaps@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/hiaps
=

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hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C513D1AE385 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:52:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eyFd7LE4OV-m for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE271AE373 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by omfedm11.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 6FC753B403A; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:52:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from PUEXCH51.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.31]) by omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 509AF23805E; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:52:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.9]) by PUEXCH51.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.31]) with mapi; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:52:32 +0100 From: To: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "hiaps@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:52:31 +0100 Thread-Topic: Draft Charter Revised Thread-Index: Ac8Mrj0WrGsgBgYOTaCmSukOEkaZNwFUtGnA Message-ID: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344PUEXCB1Bnante_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.1.14.55715 Cc: "Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de" Subject: Re: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised X-BeenThere: hiaps@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Host Identification, Address and Prefix Sharing in Wi-Fi Access \(hiaps\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:52:46 -0000 --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Behcet, all, I just read the proposed charter text. I don't understand why the scope is = limited to the emergency case. IMHO, the emergency case is only a use case = among others. I don't understand either why "Wi-Fi" access is mentioned in = the title of the proposed bof. Cheers, Med De : Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:sarikaya2012@gmail.com] Envoy=E9 : mercredi 8 janvier 2014 21:14 =C0 : hiaps@ietf.org Cc : Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de Objet : Draft Charter Revised Hi all, Based on the comments received so far and based on our contacts with ETSI, = we have revised the charter. Please check the current version at: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ Please direct all comments and support to the list. Kind regards, Behcet --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Behcet, all,

I just read the proposed charter text. I don’t understand = why the scope is limited to the emergency case. IMHO, the emergency case is= only a use case among others. I don’t understand either why “W= i-Fi” access is mentioned in the title of the proposed bof.

Cheers,
Med

De : Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:sarikay= a2012@gmail.com]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 8 janvier 2014 21:14=C0 : hiaps@ietf.org
Cc : Dirk.von-Hugo@teleko= m.de
Objet : Draft Charter Revised

=
Hi all,
<= /div>
Based on the comme= nts received so far and based on our contacts with ETSI, we have revised th= e charter. Please check the current version at:

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/<= /o:p>
Please d= irect all comments and support to the list.
Kind regards,
=
Behcet
= --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344PUEXCB1Bnante_-- From Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de Wed Jan 15 10:19:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E790E1AE13A for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:19:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3IOF8oUbSlcn for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from tcmail33.telekom.de (tcmail33.telekom.de [80.149.113.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3017E1AE128 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from he113443.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.93.103]) by tcmail31.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 15 Jan 2014 19:19:28 +0100 Received: from HE113484.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.93.124]) by HE113443.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([::1]) with mapi; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:19:28 +0100 From: To: , , Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:19:26 +0100 Thread-Topic: Draft Charter Revised Thread-Index: Ac8Mrj0WrGsgBgYOTaCmSukOEkaZNwFUtGnAAAbLeJA= Message-ID: <05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA6006FC2@HE113484.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> In-Reply-To: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA6006FC2HE113484emea1_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised X-BeenThere: hiaps@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Host Identification, Address and Prefix Sharing in Wi-Fi Access \(hiaps\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:19:46 -0000 --_000_05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA6006FC2HE113484emea1_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Med and all, Thanks for the question. I agree that emergency call is just one of multipl= e use cases where host identification is an issue and currently no viable s= olution is agreed on. On the other hand we have to realize and keep in mind that (not only nowada= ys) the privacy issues for location and identity are a major concern toward= s everyone. It seems that for most of the use cases thus a satisfying solut= ion will be hard to find - the narrowed down scenario with limited actors t= o which the identity is uncovered (emergency and call service providers) mi= ght allow to manage the issue here. We have chosen WiFi as typical and widespread environment providing guest a= ccess where - as opposite to cellular service - the identity may be not acc= essible to any intermediate connectivity provider. Surely after successful solution of this case one can try to extend it to o= thers ... Hope this helps to understand. Any further comments and opinions welcome! Best regards Dirk From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] Sent: Mittwoch, 15. Januar 2014 15:53 To: sarikaya@ieee.org; hiaps@ietf.org Cc: von Hugo, Dirk Subject: RE: Draft Charter Revised Hi Behcet, all, I just read the proposed charter text. I don't understand why the scope is = limited to the emergency case. IMHO, the emergency case is only a use case = among others. I don't understand either why "Wi-Fi" access is mentioned in = the title of the proposed bof. Cheers, Med De : Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:sarikaya2012@gmail.com] Envoy=E9 : mercredi 8 janvier 2014 21:14 =C0 : hiaps@ietf.org Cc : Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de Objet : Draft Charter Revised Hi all, Based on the comments received so far and based on our contacts with ETSI, = we have revised the charter. Please check the current version at: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ Please direct all comments and support to the list. Kind regards, Behcet --_000_05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA6006FC2HE113484emea1_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Med an= d all,
Thanks for the ques= tion. I agree that emergency call is just one of multiple use cases where h= ost identification is an issue and currently no viable solution is agreed o= n.
On the other hand we ha= ve to realize and keep in mind that (not only nowadays) the privacy issues = for location and identity are a major concern towards everyone. It seems th= at for most of the use cases thus a satisfying solution will be hard to fin= d – the narrowed down scenario with limited actors to which the ident= ity is uncovered (emergency and call service providers) might allow to mana= ge the issue here.
We have= chosen WiFi as typical and widespread environment providing guest access w= here – as opposite to cellular service – the identity may be no= t accessible to any intermediate connectivity provider. <= /p>
Surely after successful solution of this cas= e one can try to extend it to others …

Hope this helps to understand. Any further comments and opinions welcome!<= o:p>
Best regards
Dirk
From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.bouc= adair@orange.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 15. Januar 2014 15:53
To= : sarikaya@ieee.org; hiaps@ietf.org
Cc: von Hugo, Dirk
= Subject: RE: Draft Charter Revised

Hi Behcet, all,

I just read the proposed charter text. I don’t understand = why the scope is limited to the emergency case. IMHO, the emergency case is= only a use case among others. I don’t understand either why “W= i-Fi” access is mentioned in the title of the proposed bof.

Cheers,
Med

De : Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:sarikay= a2012@gmail.com]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 8 janvier 2014 21:14=C0 : hiaps@ietf.org
Cc : Dirk.von-Hugo@teleko= m.de
Objet : Draft Charter Revised

=
Hi all,
<= /div>
Based on the comme= nts received so far and based on our contacts with ETSI, we have revised th= e charter. Please check the current version at:

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/<= /o:p>
Please d= irect all comments and support to the list.
Kind regards,
=
Behcet
= --_000_05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA6006FC2HE113484emea1_-- From joelja@bogus.com Wed Jan 15 10:35:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E12C1AE128 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rc6xn_3COKIf for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA96C1AE125 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mb-aye.local (c-50-174-18-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.174.18.221]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s0FIYjIS026665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:34:45 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <52D6D4BF.7070603@bogus.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:34:39 -0800 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "hiaps@ietf.org" References: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> In-Reply-To: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36F45EC4344@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8opSl5qC1xFFSRrQwceu9cwSxbKHLFeFT" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:34:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de" Subject: Re: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised X-BeenThere: hiaps@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Host Identification, Address and Prefix Sharing in Wi-Fi Access \(hiaps\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:35:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --8opSl5qC1xFFSRrQwceu9cwSxbKHLFeFT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/15/14, 6:52 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi Behcet, all, >=20 > I just read the proposed charter text. I don't understand why the scope= is limited to the emergency case. IMHO, the emergency case is only a use= case among others. I don't understand either why "Wi-Fi" access is menti= oned in the title of the proposed bof. my 12/12/13 observation was as follows > Description: Host identification is required in IPv4 when the hosts are= behind a NAT box or > when the communication is tunneled such as using IPSec. Host identification is also > required in IPv6 when the hosts are assigned addresses from a shared prefix. In most of > these scenarios, the hosts access the network using Wireless Local Area= Networks, aka > Wi-Fi access. In case the hosts are behind a NAT box, there is a strong= need for the host > identification when the host is accessing a fixed network and trying to= place an emergency >call. It is likely given current events, that persistent identifiers visible to on-path observers are going to be viewed by the IETF community in general in an extraordinarily negative light. in particular in the IPv6 context I would think it antithetical to the goals of regular rotation of temporary/privacy or cryptographically generated addresses to retain host identity bindings that are visible outside a limited scope e.g. an l2 domain and which persist across host address changes. In terms of employing them for roaming, the question of how would they be generated and where who they be stored becomes germain. What semantics are they actually carrying and the question of persistence further raises the stakes with respect to revalation to remote observers= =2E > Cheers, > Med >=20 > De : Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:sarikaya2012@gmail.com] > Envoy=E9 : mercredi 8 janvier 2014 21:14 > =C0 : hiaps@ietf.org > Cc : Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de > Objet : Draft Charter Revised >=20 > Hi all, > Based on the comments received so far and based on our contacts with ET= SI, we have revised the charter. Please check the current version at: >=20 > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ > Please direct all comments and support to the list. > Kind regards, > Behcet >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hiaps mailing list > hiaps@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hiaps >=20 --8opSl5qC1xFFSRrQwceu9cwSxbKHLFeFT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLW1MAACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrJ30QCdGgZdj9JIbeQFf8EjPHmlNEoz Bl0An27cJr7ySFWOnH91M5BN3OVeIOiz =S5k8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8opSl5qC1xFFSRrQwceu9cwSxbKHLFeFT-- From Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de Fri Jan 17 08:44:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FAF21AE152 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:44:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.788 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.788 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B2zZFFMzeOCc for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tcmail93.telekom.de (tcmail93.telekom.de [80.149.113.205]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F312D1AE16E for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from he113443.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.93.103]) by tcmail91.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 17 Jan 2014 17:44:02 +0100 Received: from HE113484.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.93.124]) by HE113443.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([::1]) with mapi; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:44:02 +0100 From: To: Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:44:00 +0100 Thread-Topic: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised Thread-Index: Ac8MxLgs5XxrGG6ETzmkq8nZXHFCcAG3bBuw Message-ID: <05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA60DB214@HE113484.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <52CDD747.6060209@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <52CDD747.6060209@bogus.com> Accept-Language: de-DE Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised X-BeenThere: hiaps@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Host Identification, Address and Prefix Sharing in Wi-Fi Access \(hiaps\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 16:44:19 -0000 Dear all, We have some people being active on the list who are working on new drafts = to discuss requirements and potential solutions tailored for the emergency = call use case. Thanks for that! While approaching the next mile stones could you please post on the list th= e status of the documents and the expected time frame for submission? Thanks a lot! I think we also have already volunteers for reviewing available. This is very much appreciated. Best regards and have a nice weekend=20 Dirk -----Original Message----- From: hiaps [mailto:hiaps-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of joel jaeggli Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Januar 2014 23:55 To: sarikaya@ieee.org; hiaps@ietf.org Cc: von Hugo, Dirk Subject: Re: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised I realize that it's early january but given that the BOF scheduling call i= s on or about the 17th. this needs to happen rather fast. The has ben effectively minimal input since the list renaming, save for the= discussion of a mobility use case. This isn't the basis for a successful o= uting on this and it's far short of a working group chartering activity. I appreciate the effort that Behcet and Dirk have done to keep this going, = but I'm not feeling the love so far. thanks. joel On 1/8/14, 12:14 PM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > Based on the comments received so far and based on our contacts with=20 > ETSI, we have revised the charter. Please check the current version at: >=20 > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ >=20 > Please direct all comments and support to the list. >=20 > Kind regards, >=20 > Behcet >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hiaps mailing list > hiaps@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hiaps >=20 From bingxuere@gmail.com Fri Jan 17 19:37:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96921AC4AB for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:37:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31kABNpgRsLJ for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x231.google.com (mail-oa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A38C1A1F3F for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id i7so3238036oag.36 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:37:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=0u17cRcvFStAnYlSjxWP8wSRd94yQ2x69ZN9nIkd/Po=; b=yS+GLq2c3iplR8XaVGWhwplIiDed+Gpkkuoqc11FHh8nrpK1pMfH9FQv2SyLmdqeC2 uAnpK3Dd5bIYNwTSgjvSayXg6K2IOyYWCH9bcLWAoF4EffUSQs80W/aaynj1lmgkyGuM j2oAAE9v5fJhzDAt5ZphnKu3oE9G8Q74CspEc5yh6HlJLbjwlOhrci3xQ/bWiiK042r2 qL2czJOr9ttFzY/mMYmsrJjMp/f3i09y20qdShIBsDI24XQsHMYo1olt4wcaeNmUtYrV BdZB8IiXafA4PDGJ6OcX4agTdwF22kTMWQxGybKUDufcsMH+kK7tcY3i6+cAuCHDqEUz GIuA== X-Received: by 10.60.233.5 with SMTP id ts5mr4543732oec.23.1390016249435; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:37:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.76.82.228 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 19:36:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA60DB214@HE113484.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <52CDD747.6060209@bogus.com> <05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA60DB214@HE113484.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> From: Qiong Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 11:36:49 +0800 Message-ID: To: "Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1136a2dcc79d1f04f03660b9 Cc: hiaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised X-BeenThere: hiaps@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Host Identification, Address and Prefix Sharing in Wi-Fi Access \(hiaps\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 03:37:44 -0000 --001a1136a2dcc79d1f04f03660b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear Drik, Yes, we are working on a requirement draft. We have finished a 00 version and are now under review of our co-authors. Hopefully, we will be able to submit the draft early next week. Best wishes Qiong On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:44 AM, wrote: > Dear all, > We have some people being active on the list who are working on new drafts > to discuss requirements and potential solutions tailored for the emergency > call use case. Thanks for that! > While approaching the next mile stones could you please post on the list > the status of the documents and the expected time frame for submission? > Thanks a lot! > I think we also have already volunteers for reviewing available. > This is very much appreciated. > > Best regards and have a nice weekend > > Dirk > -----Original Message----- > From: hiaps [mailto:hiaps-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of joel jaeggli > Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Januar 2014 23:55 > To: sarikaya@ieee.org; hiaps@ietf.org > Cc: von Hugo, Dirk > Subject: Re: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised > > I realize that it's early january but given that the BOF scheduling call > is on or about the 17th. this needs to happen rather fast. > > The has ben effectively minimal input since the list renaming, save for > the discussion of a mobility use case. This isn't the basis for a > successful outing on this and it's far short of a working group chartering > activity. > > I appreciate the effort that Behcet and Dirk have done to keep this going, > but I'm not feeling the love so far. thanks. > > joel > > On 1/8/14, 12:14 PM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Based on the comments received so far and based on our contacts with > > ETSI, we have revised the charter. Please check the current version at: > > > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ > > > > Please direct all comments and support to the list. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Behcet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hiaps mailing list > > hiaps@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hiaps > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hiaps mailing list > hiaps@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hiaps > -- ============================================== Qiong Sun China Telecom Beijing Research Institude Open source code: lightweight 4over6: *http://sourceforge.net/projects/laft6/ * PCP-natcoord:* http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcpportsetdemo/ * =============================================== --001a1136a2dcc79d1f04f03660b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Drik,

Yes, we are working on a req= uirement draft. We have finished a 00 version and are now under review of o= ur co-authors. Hopefully, we will be able to submit the draft early next we= ek.

Best wishes
Qiong

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:44= AM, <Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de> wrote:

Dear all,
We have some people being active on the list who are working on new drafts = to discuss requirements and potential solutions tailored for the emergency = call use case. Thanks for that!
While approaching the next mile stones could you please post on the list th= e status of the documents and the expected time frame for submission?
Thanks a lot!
I think we also have already volunteers for reviewing available.
This is very much appreciated.

Best regards and have a nice weekend

Dirk

-----Original Message-----
From: hiaps [mailto:hiaps-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of joel jaeggli
Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Januar 2014 23:55
To: sarikaya@ieee.org; hiaps@ietf.org
Cc: von Hugo, Dirk

Subject: Re: [hiaps] Draft Charter Revised

I realize that it's early= january =C2=A0but given that the BOF scheduling call is on or about the 17= th. this needs to happen rather fast.

The has ben effectively minimal input since the list renaming, save for the= discussion of a mobility use case. This isn't the basis for a successf= ul outing on this and it's far short of a working group chartering acti= vity.

I appreciate the effort that Behcet and Dirk have done to keep this going, = but I'm not feeling the love so far. thanks.

joel

On 1/8/14, 12:14 PM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Based on the comments received so far and based on our contacts with > ETSI, we have revised the charter. Please check the current version at= :
>
> htt= p://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/
>
> Please direct all comments and support to the list.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Behcet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hiaps mailing list
> hiaps@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hiaps
>

_______________________________________________
hiaps mailing list
hiaps@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hiaps

--
= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Qiong Su= n
China Telecom Beijing Research Institude

Open source code:<= br>lightweight 4over6: http://sourceforge.net/projects/laft6/
PCP-natcoord: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcpportsetdemo/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

--001a1136a2dcc79d1f04f03660b9-- From joelja@bogus.com Wed Jan 22 18:03:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD081A0213 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:03:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fj7YaIYyuiAf for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1EC11A0220 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mb-aye.local (c-50-174-18-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.174.18.221]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s0N23kkM091384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:03:48 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <52E0787C.1050605@bogus.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:03:40 -0800 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "hiaps@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ht8pqmRRCFonSOVSMIgG7bdu3NXOTb0Vj" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:03:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Richard Barnes , Brian Haberman Subject: [hiaps] BOF scheduling Call update. X-BeenThere: hiaps@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Host Identification, Address and Prefix Sharing in Wi-Fi Access \(hiaps\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:03:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Ht8pqmRRCFonSOVSMIgG7bdu3NXOTb0Vj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The BOF scheduling call was held this morning. The feedback received was fairly unfavorable with respect to our prospects, It has been decided not to include it in the schedule for IETF 89 on that basis. Some observations. * With respect to emergency services use case Richard Barnes has expressed an interest in socializing that with ecrit. There may also be overlap with geopriv where useful work can be done. * There is very active disinterest with respect to exposing additional identifiers in a fashion that is visible to on-path observers. Evolving sentiments regarding exposure to pervasive monitoring play into this. In this respect the historical effort in this space e.g. RFC 6967 RFC 6269 is helpful insofar as it highlights the problems with some of the potential approaches. * Consent is another question when it comes to notionally signaling on behalf of users. either for all packets/flows, some of them, or on the basis of DPI, e.g. application awareness through inspection, there is some assumption that applications should be resistant to the later for a variety of reasons. * The existing documents don't point in the direction that I feel can get support from the current IESG and IAB, myself included. * There does not at this time appear to be a critical-mass associated with the proposed working-group and working group items. Thank you for your forbearance. joel --Ht8pqmRRCFonSOVSMIgG7bdu3NXOTb0Vj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLgeHwACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrJG3wCeMk9EVzF8neJZ5CbIGkOr4+Jt YlkAni3l8li51EPUQQ83iVFJRkmuxlOm =57DV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Ht8pqmRRCFonSOVSMIgG7bdu3NXOTb0Vj-- From Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de Mon Jan 27 09:00:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hiaps@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68A81A0345 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:00:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.785 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gnRSSpc1mcMX for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tcmail13.telekom.de (tcmail13.telekom.de [80.149.113.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B16A1A037F for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from he113472.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.93.130]) by tcmail11.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 27 Jan 2014 18:00:09 +0100 Received: from HE113484.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.93.124]) by HE113472.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:00:09 +0100 From: To: , Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:00:08 +0100 Thread-Topic: [hiaps] BOF scheduling Call update. Thread-Index: Ac8X32E8yQHFOX9AR3aCoRobS9Gd1QDoDY9Q Message-ID: <05C81A773E48DD49B181B04BA21A342A2DA62C274C@HE113484.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <52E0787C.1050605@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <52E0787C.1050605@bogus.com> Accept-Language: de-DE Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: rlb@ipv.sx, brian@innovationslab.net Subject: Re: [hiaps] BOF scheduling Call update. X-BeenThere: hiaps@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Host Identification, Address and Prefix Sharing in Wi-Fi Access \(hiaps\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:00:18 -0000 Dear all, As explained by Joel below we will have no BoF at London but should use the= opportunity to discuss potential next steps. As further details to understand the current situation we may take into acc= ount the discussion on the concerns of pervasive monitoring which has obvio= us relations to our Host identity we wanted to find a solution for in the e= mergency use case scenario in Hiaps BoF.=20 What help to understand the current situation is the have a look at http://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrell-perpass-attack/ where you find there= will be an IESG telechat next week.=20 Beside other issues we might say it's just bad timing for ETSI and our plan= ned activity. What is your opinion? Thanks and best regards Dirk -----Original Message----- From: hiaps [mailto:hiaps-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of joel jaeggli Sent: Donnerstag, 23. Januar 2014 03:04 To: hiaps@ietf.org Cc: Richard Barnes; Brian Haberman Subject: [hiaps] BOF scheduling Call update. Hi, The BOF scheduling call was held this morning. The feedback received was fairly unfavorable with respect to our prospects,= It has been decided not to include it in the schedule for IETF 89 on that = basis. Some observations. * With respect to emergency services use case Richard Barnes has expressed = an interest in socializing that with ecrit. There may also be overlap with = geopriv where useful work can be done. * There is very active disinterest with respect to exposing additional iden= tifiers in a fashion that is visible to on-path observers. Evolving sentime= nts regarding exposure to pervasive monitoring play into this. In this resp= ect the historical effort in this space e.g. RFC 6967 RFC 6269 is helpful = insofar as it highlights the problems with some of the potential approaches= . * Consent is another question when it comes to notionally signaling on beha= lf of users. either for all packets/flows, some of them, or on the basis of= DPI, e.g. application awareness through inspection, there is some assumpti= on that applications should be resistant to the later for a variety of reas= ons. * The existing documents don't point in the direction that I feel can get s= upport from the current IESG and IAB, myself included. * There does not at this time appear to be a critical-mass associated with = the proposed working-group and working group items. Thank you for your forbearance. joel