From skitrip2008-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sun Oct 01 08:32:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GU0V6-0002pc-DO for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 01 Oct 2006 08:32:56 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GU0V3-0003eQ-4U for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 01 Oct 2006 08:32:56 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14700398041 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 05:32:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: frascone.com mailing list memberships reminder From: skitrip2008-owner@frascone.com To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 05:30:46 -0700 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: skitrip2008@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: Our Next Skitrip! X-List-Administrivia: yes Errors-To: skitrip2008-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 This is a monthly reminder about your frascone.com mailing list memberships. It shows the lists you are subscribed to, your passwords, and a Web page URL you can use to manage your subscriptions. Visit the Web page URL shown below to unsubscribe, change your e-mail address, temporarily disable your subscription for a vacation, set digest-style delivery, and so on. You can also use e-mail to make changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, skitrip2008-request@frascone.com) containing just the word 'help' in the message body. An e-mail message will be sent to you with instructions. Here is the subscription information for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- capwap@frascone.com ugimni http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/options/capwap/capwap-archive%40lists.ietf.org From callistau@brownwoodmusic.com Sun Oct 01 23:43:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUEiY-0006QE-GZ for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 01 Oct 2006 23:43:46 -0400 Received: from [201.255.22.203] (helo=brownwoodmusic.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUEiW-00047q-Tv for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 01 Oct 2006 23:43:46 -0400 Message-ID: <01c6e5ab$06f118f0$cb16ffc9@lt4k82xc7nymod> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 00:43:34 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Linda Shrader" From: "Linda Shrader" To: Subject: PHxyvARMA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0765_01C6E5BB.CA7C59F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0765_01C6E5BB.CA7C59F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good day, AMBttIEN CIAttLIS VIAttGRA VALttIUM Save 50 % with http://www.sedunjinkadesinkloons.com =20 _____ =20 treated, but the whole ugly business. Well, I feel that it is getting temporooter. Well take it off your hands now. him at work, just the results. ------=_NextPart_000_0765_01C6E5BB.CA7C59F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0765_01C6E5BB.CA7C59F0-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 02 01:47:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUGeV-0005t1-Bj for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 01:47:43 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUGeQ-00060H-OY for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 01:47:43 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3681448023 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 22:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8098B4300EA for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 22:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6A4144800D for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 22:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F15D1448008 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 22:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/kings) with ESMTP id k925bKtX028518; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:37:20 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx2) with ESMTP id k925bMN09008; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:37:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/expos) with ESMTP id k925bFl27810; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:37:15 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 13:36:07 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD012F228D@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbjOwaBxAxmTegASwKjGKmQD0OreAAB7o8QAAZYQgAAILorcACAwhAA From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , "Dorothy Stanley" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com, Saravanan Govindan Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1530292894==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cbc3a0773f997484b7ccb6b9a6247de5 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1530292894== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6E5E4.AA897A5F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E5E4.AA897A5F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, =20 Let's get this straight again, hopefully, it is the last time. We have been deviated from the real technical issue by your non-technical comments too many times. And, by the way, they are not funny at all :) =20 No one is asking for assistance of protocol design from you or Cisco as a commercial entity. The question was raised since you claim that your proposal is workable, and should be adopted by the CAPWAP WG into the protocol design. Shouldn't any member of this WG demand a bit more information to justify your assertion? I think as a veteran of standardization, you should know this better than anyone else ?! =20 If you plainly refuse to provide any information on that, please stop talking again like "xxx products works fine like this, and there is no problem", since it is simply not verifiable.=20 =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 12:10 AM To: Cheng Hong; Dorothy Stanley Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations I am afraid that requesting design assistance from a competitor is very close to violation of U.S anti-trust laws. I will not describe how Cisco has designed any of its products and I cannot help you design yours. =20 Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity. A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms. See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions. And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is necessary. =20 As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC. This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or not. This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the STA. So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other frame. -Bob =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:34 PM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Hi Bob, =20 As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-defined value zero.=20 =20 It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC value to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we are just disabling the tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a designed function. =20 As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the attacker basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without being detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, say, 900, the number of possible replayed packets can be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets.=20 =20 Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does place a bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you could share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove otherwise. Or, you have some other considerations that could defend the replay attack? =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 _____ =20 From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM To: Dorothy Stanley Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Dorothy, =20 The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC. It doesn't eliminate any potential attacks. It doesn't add any functionality. However, it does add cost and complexity to the protocol. =20 -Bob =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations All, Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, describing the Key RSC field.: "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive sequence counter (RSC) for the GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake and Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11 replay state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value of the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. The Key RSC field gives the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set to 0. The least significant octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC field." The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of=20 replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field gives the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify replayed MPDUs." Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence counter (in most cases not even close) of the GTK.. Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its current GTK sequence counter, and the AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sent to new STAs. The RSC value would not be up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not require an "in-the-critical-path message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the intended use of the field. Dorothy On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote:=20 Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for the 802.1X authenticator. Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to 802.1X . It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we want this behavior to be consistent across all implementations. The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of three different things are required:=20 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it is updated, or 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for the KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so that it can insert the KeyRSC value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the proper EAPOL-key frame. The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP=20 communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is acknowledged. This is a very expensive addition to the protocol.=20 The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during what can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, roam) from one WTP to another. It also introduces a race condition that is=20 not present in the protocol today. Once the value for the KeyRSC is sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send another multicast frame encrypted with the group key. This puts the value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be=20 shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC. This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the EAPOL-key frame. The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required in our objectives. The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting the authenticator. Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and=20 more easily compromised than the AC. The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.=20 -Bob -----Original Message----- From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;=20 Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Hi Pat and all, So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the=20 correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design. So far, we have three option/solutions: 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC. 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP=20 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and AC Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not=20 mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11, because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with CAPWAP and 802.11i. Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of=20 mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the impact. If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear in the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value, what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could provide us a better understanding of the issue. For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope.=20 Further analysis could help us to decide which one is better (or someone could propose other solutions). cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM > To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; > Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in=20 > this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes. > Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use > any other value, which would require some form of > communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20 > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cheng Hong [mailto: Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson > J (LI/EAB) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > Considerations > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a=20 > > solution (to the problem pointed out by > > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the > > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero. > > > > This is not a defined behavior according to the current=20 > > 802.11 standard. > > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically > mandate that > > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP > compatible > > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists, > > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described. > > > > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard > > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially no > > use of the KeyRSC). > > > > cheers > > > > Cheng Hong > > > >=20 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM=20 > > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i=20 > > > Considerations > > > > > > Charles, Peter, > > > > > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this > > topic that I > > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006. I think this will be=20 > helpful to > > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not > > > necessary. In fact, there are several systems from several > > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to=20 > CAPWAP that > > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the > > protocol as > > > it is described below. > > > > > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the=20 > > group key, not > > > the pairwise key. This is so because the WTP and AC both > know the > > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has > > > never been used to send a frame. 802.11i requires the > first frame > > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1. See > > 8.3.2.6 c) > > > and > > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement. > > > > > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins > > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence > > counter for=20 > > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key > > handshake with a > > > newly associated STA. > > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not > > necessary > > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the > group key > > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended. > > > > > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to=20 > > > calculate the KeyMIC. > > > > > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific > > relationship to the > > > RSC value maintained by the WTP. A value of zero in the=20 > EAPOL-key > > > frame for the group key will always work. > > > > > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the > > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.=20 > > > > > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value > > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero. > > > > > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the=20 > > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay > > > attacks. Any frame received with a sequence counter value > > within the > > > replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC. If the=20 > > MIC is not > > > valid, the frame is dropped. > > > > > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay > attack frame > > > and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,=20 > > the client > > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received > > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value. > > Only the > > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame=20 > received by the > > > STA. > > > > > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason > that the AC > > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.=20 > > > > > > > > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send > frames to > > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and > > the first=20 > > > frame encrypted with the group key. > > > During this time, the client will receive the frame and > proceed to > > > validate its MIC. This is a potential attack against the STA=20 > > > resources. But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's > > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving > any other > > > frame. Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA=20 > > resources > > > beyond those of receiving a frame. > > > > > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for > > the KeyRSC, > > > either. The same attack is available to an attacker at any other=20 > > > time, as well. It is no more nor less effective at either time. > > > > > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to > > > address the issue raised by Saranavan.=20 > > > > > > -Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM=20 > > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations=20 > > > > > > This is a very interesting solution. The AC selects the > KeyRSC and > > > performs the 4-way handshake. The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake > > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to=20 > > initialize its own > > > counter. > > > > > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works? I > > have to agree > > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical=20 > description of how > > > Cisco implements it. > > > > > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to > > have the AC > > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message=20 > > as Behcet > > > suggests. > > > > > > -- > > > t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | > www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote: > > > > > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype > > impelementation of=20 > > > the > > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way > > > we solved > > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data > > > messages=20 > > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or > > > message 1 of > > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC > > > before=20 > > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on > > > all CAPWAP > > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to > > > handle these=20 > > > > two messages. > > > > > > > > Peter Nilsson > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Saravanan Govindan > > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03 > > > > To: Margaret Wasserman > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > Hi Margaret, > > > > > > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue. > > > > > > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i > > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto > > element is > > > at > > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between=20 > > > > authenticator and supplicant. > > > > > > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of > > > KeyRSC sequence > > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant=20 > > > keep track > > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by > > > tracking > > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the > > point of > > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the > > wireless channel. > > > > > > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC=20 > > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant). > > > > > > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and > > > the crypto > > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a=20 > > > fairly common > > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way > handshake but it > > > does > > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained=20 > > > by the WTP. > > > > > > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not > > allow for a > > > way > > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.=20 > > > > > > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for the > > authenticator > > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC > > > (maintained by the=20 > > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake. > > > > > > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is > > to have part > > > of > > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow=20 > > > the 4-way > > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before > > > being sent to > > > > the wireless station. > > > > > > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.=20 > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Saravanan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM=20 > > > > To: Saravanan Govindan > > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi again, > > > > > > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...=20 > > > > > > > > Saravanan, you wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote: > > > > > > > >> Pat,=20 > > > >> > > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when > > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at > > the WTP. This=20 > > > is > > > >> the requirement. > > > > > > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20 > > > >> The current specification allows the authenticator to > > > reside in the > > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This > > > feature is=20 > > > >> already in the specification. > > > > > > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification. > > > > > > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for=20 > that is not > > > > already supported by the specification? And why do you > > think it is > > > > necessary? it will not be helpful to my understanding to > > > re-send your=20 > > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document... Please > > summarize > > > > what functionality you think is missing from the current > > > specification > > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to=20 > support IEEE > > > > 802.11i or any important use case. > > > > > > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus > > call on this > > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure=20 > > > that it has > > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to > > > decide on > > > > this issue. > > > > > > > > Thanks,=20 > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =20 > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =20 > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >=20 > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20 > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20 > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =20 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________=20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E5E4.AA897A5F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Bob,
 
Let's=20 get this straight again, hopefully, it is the last time. We have been = deviated=20 from the real technical issue by your non-technical comments too many = times.=20 And, by the way, they are not funny at all :)
 
No one=20 is asking for assistance of protocol design from you or Cisco as a = commercial=20 entity. The question was raised since you claim that your proposal is = workable,=20 and should be adopted by the CAPWAP WG into the protocol design. = Shouldn't any=20 member of this WG demand a bit more information to justify your = assertion? I=20 think as a veteran of standardization, you should know this better than = anyone=20 else ?!
 
If you=20 plainly refuse to provide any information on that, please stop talking = again=20 like "xxx products works fine like this, and there is no problem", since = it is=20 simply not verifiable.
 
cheers
 
Cheng=20 Hong
 
 
 


From: Bob O'Hara (boohara)=20 [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 30, = 2006 12:10=20 AM
To: Cheng Hong; Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Pat Calhoun = (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); = capwap@frascone.com;=20 Saravanan Govindan
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - = Explanation for=20 802.11i Considerations

I am afraid that requesting design assistance = from a=20 competitor is very close to violation of U.S anti-trust laws.  I = will not=20 describe how Cisco has designed any of its products and I cannot help = you=20 design yours.
 
Again, your proposal does not eliminate any = attack=20 mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only = cost and=20 complexity.  A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using = the=20 normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.  See section=20 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequence number is part = of the=20 additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of = 802.11-1999 for the=20 description of these functions.  And PLEASE read 802.11 and = 802.11i=20 before again asserting that this proposal is = necessary.
 
As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect = of using=20 zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA = (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and = validate=20 the MIC.  This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it = is a=20 replayed frame or not.  This set of functions is performed in the = 802.11=20 STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the = STA. =20 So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no = more=20 effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other=20 frame.

 -Bob
 

 


From: Cheng Hong=20 [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent: Thursday, = September 28,=20 2006 5:34 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy = Stanley
Cc:=20 Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20 capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan
Subject: RE: = [Capwap] Issue=20 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

Hi=20 Bob,
 
As=20 Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value = closer to=20 the current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-defined value = zero.=20
 
It=20 is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC = value to be=20 used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly = synchronize the=20 RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we are just = disabling=20 the tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a designed=20 function.
 
As=20 for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 = would=20 pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently = 1000, and=20 we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the attacker = basically can=20 safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without being = detected. If=20 the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, say, 900, = the=20 number of possible replayed packets can be reduced to 10 percent, = 100=20 packets.
 
Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does = place a=20 bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you = could=20 share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove = otherwise. Or,=20 you have some other considerations that could defend the replay=20 attack?
 
cheers
 
Cheng Hong
 


From: Bob O'Hara (boohara)=20 [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2006 5:21=20 AM
To: Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat = Calhoun=20 (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - = Explanation=20 for 802.11i Considerations

Dorothy,
 
The problem with this proposal is that it = is no more=20 effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It = doesn't=20 eliminate any potential attacks.  It doesn't add any=20 functionality.  However, it does add cost and = complexity to=20 the protocol. 

 -Bob
 

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September = 28,=20 2006 1:17 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
Cc: Cheng = Hong;=20 Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - = Explanation=20 for 802.11i Considerations

All,

Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 = Clause 8.5.2,=20 describing the Key RSC field.:

"g)=20 Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive = sequence=20 counter (RSC) for the
GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It = is used in=20 Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake andMessage 1 of the=20 Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11 = replay
state. It may also be used in the = Michael MIC=20 Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value ofthe = frame=20 experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. = The Key=20 RSC field gives
the current message number for the GTK, = to allow=20 a STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the KeyRSC = field value=20 is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set = to 0. The=20 least significant
octet of the TSC or PN should be in the = first=20 octet of the Key RSC field."

The intent of adding this = value=20 in message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of
replayed = frames=20 that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field = gives
the=20 current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify = replayed=20 MPDUs."
Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the = current=20 sequence counter (in most cases
not even close) of the=20 GTK..

Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify = the AC of=20 its current GTK sequence counter, and the
AC would use the most = recently=20 received value in the message 3 sent to new STAs. The RSC = value
would not=20 be  up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not = require=20 an "in-the-critical-path
message exchange between the AC and WTP, = and=20 still be close to the intended use of the = field.

Dorothy

On 9/28/06, Bob=20 O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> = wrote:=20
Please=20 understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area = for
the=20 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key = KeyRSC=20 value
of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to = 802.11i or=20 to
802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the = CAPWAP spec,=20 if we want
this behavior to be consistent across all=20 implementations.

The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan = are=20 asking is that either of
three different things are required: =
1:=20 the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it = is
updated, or
2: the AC must request the current value of = the group=20 key TSC for the
KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, = or
3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it = can=20 insert the KeyRSC
value and also calculate the correct MIC, = inserting=20 that into the proper
EAPOL-key frame.

The first item = requires a=20 tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP
communication between = WTP and=20 AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for
every multicast frame = sent by=20 the WTP, if the packet is not
acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP = packets,=20 if it is acknowledged.  This is
a very expensive = addition to=20 the protocol.

The second item requires new protocol = between the AC=20 and WTP during what
can be a time critical portion of the = 802.11=20 transition (handoff, roam)
from one WTP to = another.  It also=20 introduces a race condition that is
not present in the = protocol=20 today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC is
sent from = the WTP to=20 the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
another multicast = frame=20 encrypted with the group key.  This puts the
value of = the=20 sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be =
shortly=20 communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the = AC.
This=20 will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in=20 the
EAPOL-key frame.

The third item requires a new = architecture=20 split that is not required in
our objectives.  The = new split=20 is not splitting the MAC, but splitting
the=20 authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a=20 potential
reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, = since=20 these
devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but = exposed=20 and
more easily compromised than the AC.

The simplest = to=20 implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to
use = the=20 protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value = of
zero in=20 the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. =

-Bob

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent:=20 Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
To: Pat Calhoun = (pacalhou); Bob=20 O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
Peter Nilsson J = (LI/EAB)
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject:=20 RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i = Considerations

Hi=20 Pat and all,

So, based on this, I would say that we have = consensus=20 that setting the
correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP = protocol=20 design.

So far, we have three option/solutions:

1) = As=20 proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the = KeyRSC.

2) As=20 suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP =

3) As=20 suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP=20 and
AC

Among the three, the first option seems the = easiest.=20 However, it
requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this = case AC)=20 that is not
mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify = that=20 (e.g. as proposed
by Bob: "We could include a note to the = effect that=20 the group KeyRSC
should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") = either in=20 CAPWAP or 802.11,
because otherwise there is no = interoperability. For=20 example, AC provided
by another vendor does not have to set = KeyRSC to 0=20 to be compliant with
CAPWAP and 802.11i.

Another = implication is=20 that we don't really understand the impact of
mandating a = static=20 KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent
analysis, I = still have=20 some doubts about the profoundness of the impact.
If the KeyRSC = value=20 is as described of no use, why would it appear in
the EAPOL = frames in=20 the first place? By mandating it to static value,
what have we = lost?=20 Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could
provide us a = better=20 understanding of the issue.

For the last two options, I = think they=20 are both within CAPWAP's scope.
Further analysis could help us = to=20 decide which one  is better (or
someone could propose = other=20 solutions).

cheers

Cheng=20 Hong







> -----Original=20 Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> = Sent:=20 Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Bob = O'Hara=20 (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> Peter Nilsson J = (LI/EAB)
> Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
>=20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>=20 Considerations
>
> Bob's point is 802.11i works this = way=20 today. The AP (or in
> this case AC) can set the RSC to = whatever=20 value it wishes.
> Bob used zero (0) as an example. = Implementations=20 could use
> any other value, which would require some form=20 of
> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
> >=20 -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cheng Hong = [mailto:=20 Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, = September 26,=20 2006 6:03 PM
> > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles = Clancy;=20 Peter Nilsson
> J (LI/EAB)
> > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > = Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> = >=20 Considerations
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> = >
> >=20 If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing = a=20
> > solution (to the problem pointed out by
> > = Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set = the
>=20 > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
> >
> = > This=20 is not a defined behavior according to the current
> > = 802.11=20 standard.
> > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should = specifically
> mandate that
> > in our CAPWAP = protocol=20 spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP
> compatible
> = > AC=20 MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still = exists,
>=20 > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you=20 described.
> >
> > Or, are you planning to take = this=20 issue to TGm for 802.11 standard
> > revision? (since = based on=20 your description, there is essentially no
> > use of the=20 KeyRSC).
> >
> > cheers
> >
> = > Cheng=20 Hong
> >
> >
> >
> >
> = >=20 > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob O'Hara = (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
> = > >=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM
> > > To: = T.=20 Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > = > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
>=20 > > Considerations
> > >
> > > = Charles,=20 Peter,
> > >
> > > Below is an expansion = of a=20 snippet from a thread on this
> > topic that I
> = > >=20 sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think this will be =
> helpful to
> > > understand why the exchange = that=20 Saranavan is requesting is not
> > > = necessary.  In=20 fact, there are several systems from several
> > >=20 manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to
> = CAPWAP=20 that
> > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i = operation=20 using the
> > protocol as
> > > it is = described=20 below.
> > >
> > > BTW, this whole = discussion is=20 about the KeyRSC for the
> > group key, not
> > = >=20 the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and AC=20 both
> know the
> > > initial sequence counter = value for=20 the pairwise key, since it has
> > > never been used = to send a=20 frame.   802.11i requires the
> first = frame
> >=20 > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of=20 1.  See
> > 8.3.2.6=20 c)
> > > and
> > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i = for=20 this requirement.
> > >
> > > The same is = not true=20 of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins
> > > = operation,=20 the AC will not know the value of the sequence
> > = counter for=20
> > > the group key when it needs to complete the=20 EAPOL-key
> > handshake with a
> > > newly = associated=20 STA.
> > > However, as you will see from the tutorial = below,=20 it is not
> > necessary
> > > for the AC and = WTP to=20 exchange any information about the
> group key
> > = >=20 KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
> > = >
> > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key = frame is=20 necessary to
> > > calculate the KeyMIC.
> > = >
> > > 2. This value does not need to bear any=20 specific
> > relationship to the
> > > RSC = value=20 maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the
>=20 EAPOL-key
> > > frame for the group key will always=20 work.
> > >
> > > 3. The client STA will = use the=20 value of KeyRSC received in the
> > > EAPOL-key frame = to=20 validate frame using the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > = > 4.=20 The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the = value
> >=20 > received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> > >
> > = > 5.=20 The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the =
>=20 > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to = identify=20 replay
> > > attacks.  Any frame received = with a=20 sequence counter value
> > within the
> > > = replay=20 window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the =
>=20 > MIC is not
> > > valid, the frame is = dropped.
>=20 > >
> > > 6. For any frame that is determined = not to be=20 a replay
> attack frame
> > > and meets all = other=20 validity and authenticity requirements,
> > the = client
>=20 > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the=20 received
> > > frame, if the value is greater than its = current=20 RSC value.
> > Only the
> > > AP can meet = these=20 criteria as the source of a frame
> received by the
> = >=20 > STA.
> > >
> > > 7. Please see item = 6,=20 immediately above, for the reason
> that the AC
> > = >=20 and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.
> = >=20 >
> > >
> > > The only possible attack = mode is=20 for the attacker to send
> frames to
> > > the = client=20 STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and
> > the = first=20
> > > frame encrypted with the group key.
> = > >=20 During this time, the client will receive the frame and
> = proceed=20 to
> > > validate its MIC.  This is a = potential=20 attack against the STA
> > > = resources.  But, the=20 MIC validation is done in the STA's
> > > 802.11 chip = and=20 consumes no more resources than receiving
> any = other
> >=20 > frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually consume = any STA=20
> > resources
> > > beyond those of = receiving a=20 frame.
> > >
> > > This attack is not = unique to=20 the use of the value zero for
> > the KeyRSC,
> = > >=20 either.  The same attack is available to an attacker at = any=20 other
> > > time, as well.  It is no more = nor less=20 effective at either time.
> > >
> > > For = these=20 reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to
> = > >=20 address the issue raised by Saranavan.
> > >
> = >=20 >  -Bob
> > > -----Original = Message-----
>=20 > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> = > >=20 Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM
> > > To: = Peter=20 Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > = > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
> >=20 > Considerations
> > >
> > > This is a = very=20 interesting solution.  The AC selects the
> KeyRSC = and
> > > performs the 4-way handshake.  The = WTP=20 sniffs the 4-way handshake
> > > traffic and grabs the = KeyRSC=20 value and uses it to
> > initialize its own
> > = >=20 counter.
> > >
> > > Pat/Bob: Is this how = the=20 Cisco implementation works?  I
> > have to=20 agree
> > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a = technical=20
> description of how
> > > Cisco implements = it.
>=20 > >
> > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it = would=20 be cleaner to
> > have the AC
> > > generate = the=20 KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message
> > as=20 Behcet
> > > suggests.
> > >
> > = >=20 --
> > > t. charles clancy, = ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
> = www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>= =20 > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J = (LI/EAB)=20 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think Saravanan = has a=20 point. We did a prototype
> > impelementation of
> = >=20 > the
> > > > protocol a year ago when it was = still=20 called LWAPP. The way
> > > we solved
> > = > >=20 this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP = data
> >=20 > messages
> > > > from the AC and when message = 3 of=20 the 4-way handshake or
> > > message 1 of
> > = >=20 > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct=20 RSC
> > > before
> > > > sending it = off to the=20 supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on
> > > all = CAPWAP
>=20 > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in = CAPWAP=20 to
> > > handle these
> > > > two=20 messages.
> > > >
> > > > Peter=20 Nilsson
> > > >
> > > > = -----Original=20 Message-----
> > > > From: Saravanan = Govindan
> >=20 > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg= .panasonic.com]
>=20 > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> > > = >=20 To: Margaret Wasserman
> > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > = > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
>=20 > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > = > Hi=20 Margaret,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you = for=20 reviewing the discussion on this issue.
> > > = >
>=20 > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when = the=20 802.11i
> > > > authenticator element is at the AC = and the=20 802.11i crypto
> > element is
> > > = at
> >=20 > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake = between=20
> > > > authenticator and supplicant.
> > = >=20 >
> > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires = knowing the=20 value of
> > > KeyRSC sequence
> > > > = counter.=20 The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant
> > = > keep=20 track
> > > > of their exchanges. It serves to = protect=20 against threats by
> > > tracking
> > > = >=20 sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
> = >=20 point of
> > > > encryption, i.e. just before = transmission=20 over the
> > wireless channel.
> > > = >
>=20 > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is = between the=20 AC
> > > > (authenticator) and the wireless = station=20 (supplicant).
> > > >
> > > > The = problem=20 arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
> > > = the=20 crypto
> > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at = the=20 WTP. This is a
> > > fairly common
> > > = >=20 design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
> = handshake but=20 it
> > > does
> > > > not know the = value of the=20 KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained
> > > by the = WTP.
>=20 > > >
> > > > Based on this, the current = CAPWAP=20 specification does not
> > allow for a
> > >=20 way
> > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the = correct=20 KeyRSC.
> > > >
> > > > The = functionality I=20 would like to see is a way for the
> > = authenticator
> >=20 > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of = KeyRSC
> >=20 > (maintained by the
> > > > WTP) in its 4-way=20 handshake.
> > > >
> > > > One way = to=20 introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is
> > to have=20 part
> > > of
> > > > the 4-way = handshake be=20 sent from AC to WTP. This will allow
> > > the = 4-way
>=20 > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC=20 before
> > > being sent to
> > > > the = wireless=20 station.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this = helps=20 clarify my view on the issue.
> > > >
> > = >=20 > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > >=20 Saravanan
> > > >
> > > >
> = > >=20 >
> > > >
> > > >
> > = >=20 >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> = > >=20 > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
&= gt;=20 > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM
> = >=20 > > To: Saravanan Govindan
> > > > Cc: Pat = Calhoun=20 (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> > = > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
>=20 > > Considerations
> > > >
> > >=20 >
> > > >
> > > > Hi = again,
> >=20 > >
> > > > Okay, I am even more confused = than I=20 thought I was...
> > > >
> > > > = Saravanan,=20 you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep = 17, 2006,=20 at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> > > = >
> >=20 > >> Pat,
> > > >>
> > > = >>=20 The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done = when
> >=20 > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are=20 at
> > the WTP. This
> > > is
> > = >=20 >> the requirement.
> > > >
> > > = >=20 And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
> > > = >
> >=20 > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) = wrote:=20
> > > >> The current specification allows the=20 authenticator to
> > > reside in the
> > > = >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP.=20 This
> > > feature is
> > > >> = already in=20 the specification.
> > > >
> > > > = Pat's=20 message matches my reading of the specification.
> > > = >
> > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are = you=20 asking for
> that is not
> > > > already = supported=20 by the specification?  And why do you
> > think = it=20 is
> > > > necessary?  it will not be = helpful to=20 my understanding to
> > > re-send your
> > = > >=20 proposal or to cite the requirements = document...  Please
>=20 > summarize
> > > > what functionality you think = is=20 missing from the current
> > > specification
> = > >=20 > and why you think that functionality is necessary to
> = support=20 IEEE
> > > > 802.11i or any important use = case.
>=20 > > >
> > > > At some point, the chairs = may need=20 to make a consensus
> > call on this
> > > = >=20 issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure
> = >=20 > that it has
> > > > been clearly communicated = to the=20 WG before we ask the WG to
> > > decide on
> = > >=20 > this issue.
> > > >
> > > > = Thanks,=20
> > > > Margaret
> > > >
> = > >=20 >
> > > >
> > > >
> > = >=20 >
> > > >
> > > >
>=20 _________________________________________________________________ =
>=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription = options,
>=20 please visit:
> > > > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>=20 > > >
>=20 _________________________________________________________________ =
>=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription = options,
>=20 please visit:
> > > > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>=20 > > >
> > >=20 _________________________________________________________________ =
>=20 > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, = please=20 visit:
> > > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>=20 > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>=20 > >=20 = _________________________________________________________________
>= =20 > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, = please=20 visit:
> > > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>=20 > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>=20 > >
> >=20 = _________________________________________________________________
>= =20 > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please = visit:=20
> > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>=20 >
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap=20
> >
>=20 = _________________________________________________________________
>= =20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please = visit:
>=20 http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
>=20 Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>
____________________________________= _____________________________=20
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20 visit:
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Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E5E4.AA897A5F-- --===============1530292894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1530292894==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 02 03:08:48 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUHuy-0007Hd-94 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 03:08:48 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUHuu-0007Bd-Tz for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 03:08:48 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEAD4302ED for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 00:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7434300EA for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 23:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07191448008 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 23:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C27C1448023 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 23:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/kings) with ESMTP id k926s4Ei011730; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 15:54:04 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id k926s5303192; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 15:54:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/mariners) with ESMTP id k926s1115872; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 15:54:01 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:53:01 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD012F22B4@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbjWSU6kmN21tK8RGapj3fA5vIt8gClty6A From: "Saravanan Govindan" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com, Cheng Hong Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1175612706==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 86687e0dc8d18807724b35d3f2d155ea This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1175612706== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6E5EF.674E7F32" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E5EF.674E7F32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike, =20 Regarding Section 11.3, I think the GTK update procedure has to reflect the KeyRSC step. I will send text shortly for the WG's consideration. Cheers, =20 Saravanan =20 =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:41 AM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: capwap@frascone.com; Cheng Hong Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations =20 Bob and all interested parties, =20 In the last round of edits, I updated Section 11.3 to describe the GTK update procedure. I thought that it lines up pretty well with what's in IEEE 802.11i (and implementations of IEEE 802.11i that I am aware of). =20 Could someone make recommendations on how you think this section should be updated? =20 Thanks, =20 Mike =20 On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote:=20 Dorothy, =20 The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC. It doesn't eliminate any potential attacks. It doesn't add any functionality. However, it does add cost and complexity to the protocol. =20 -Bob =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com=20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations =20 All, Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, describing the Key RSC field.: "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive sequence counter (RSC) for the=20 GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake and Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11 replay state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value of=20 the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. The Key RSC field gives the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set to 0. The least significant=20 octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC field." The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of=20 replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field gives the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify replayed MPDUs." Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence counter (in most cases=20 not even close) of the GTK.. Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its current GTK sequence counter, and the AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sent to new STAs. The RSC value=20 would not be up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not require an "in-the-critical-path message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the intended use of the field.=20 Dorothy On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote:=20 Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for the 802.1X authenticator. Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value=20 of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to 802.1X . It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we want this behavior to be consistent across all implementations. The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of=20 three different things are required:=20 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it is updated, or 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for the KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or=20 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so that it can insert the KeyRSC value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the proper EAPOL-key frame. The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP=20 communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is acknowledged. This is a very expensive addition to the protocol.=20 The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during what can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, roam) from one WTP to another. It also introduces a race condition that is=20 not present in the protocol today. Once the value for the KeyRSC is sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send another multicast frame encrypted with the group key. This puts the value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be=20 shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC. This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the EAPOL-key frame. The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required in our objectives. The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting the authenticator. Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and=20 more easily compromised than the AC. The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.=20 -Bob -----Original Message----- From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com ] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;=20 Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Hi Pat and all, So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the=20 correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design.=20 So far, we have three option/solutions: 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC. 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP=20 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and=20 AC Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not=20 mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11, because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with CAPWAP and 802.11i. Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of=20 mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent=20 analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the impact. If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear in the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value,=20 what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could provide us a better understanding of the issue. For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope.=20 Further analysis could help us to decide which one is better (or=20 someone could propose other solutions). cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM > To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; > Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in=20 > this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes.=20 > Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use > any other value, which would require some form of > communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20 > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=20 > Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cheng Hong [mailto: Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com ] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson > J (LI/EAB) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > Considerations > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a=20 > > solution (to the problem pointed out by > > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the > > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero. > > > > This is not a defined behavior according to the current=20 > > 802.11 standard. > > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically > mandate that > > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP > compatible > > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists, > > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described. > > > > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard > > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially no > > use of the KeyRSC). > > > > cheers > > > > Cheng Hong > > > >=20 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto: boohara@cisco.com ] > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM=20 > > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i=20 > > > Considerations > > > > > > Charles, Peter, > > > > > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this=20 > > topic that I > > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006. I think this will be=20 > helpful to > > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not > > > necessary. In fact, there are several systems from several=20 > > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to=20 > CAPWAP that > > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the > > protocol as > > > it is described below.=20 > > > > > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the=20 > > group key, not > > > the pairwise key. This is so because the WTP and AC both > know the > > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has=20 > > > never been used to send a frame. 802.11i requires the > first frame > > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1. See > > 8.3.2.6 c) > > > and > > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement. > > > > > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins > > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence=20 > > counter for=20 > > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key > > handshake with a > > > newly associated STA. > > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not=20 > > necessary > > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the > group key > > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended. > > > > > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to=20 > > > calculate the KeyMIC. > > > > > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific > > relationship to the > > > RSC value maintained by the WTP. A value of zero in the=20 > EAPOL-key > > > frame for the group key will always work. > > > > > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the > > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.=20 > > > > > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value > > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero. > > > > > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the=20 > > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay > > > attacks. Any frame received with a sequence counter value > > within the > > > replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC. If the=20 > > MIC is not > > > valid, the frame is dropped. > > > > > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay > attack frame > > > and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,=20 > > the client > > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received > > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value. > > Only the > > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame=20 > received by the > > > STA. > > > > > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason > that the AC > > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.=20 > > > > > > > > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send > frames to > > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and > > the first=20 > > > frame encrypted with the group key. > > > During this time, the client will receive the frame and > proceed to > > > validate its MIC. This is a potential attack against the STA=20 > > > resources. But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's > > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving > any other > > > frame. Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA=20 > > resources > > > beyond those of receiving a frame. > > > > > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for > > the KeyRSC, > > > either. The same attack is available to an attacker at any other=20 > > > time, as well. It is no more nor less effective at either time. > > > > > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to > > > address the issue raised by Saranavan.=20 > > > > > > -Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto: clancy@cs.umd.edu ] > > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM=20 > > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations=20 > > > > > > This is a very interesting solution. The AC selects the=20 > KeyRSC and > > > performs the 4-way handshake. The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake > > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to=20 > > initialize its own > > > counter.=20 > > > > > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works? I > > have to agree > > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical=20 > description of how > > > Cisco implements it.=20 > > > > > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to > > have the AC > > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message=20 > > as Behcet=20 > > > suggests. > > > > > > -- > > > t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | > www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote:=20 > > > > > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype > > impelementation of=20 > > > the > > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way=20 > > > we solved > > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data > > > messages=20 > > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or > > > message 1 of > > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC > > > before=20 > > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on=20 > > > all CAPWAP > > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to > > > handle these=20 > > > > two messages. > > > > > > > > Peter Nilsson=20 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Saravanan Govindan > > > [mailto: Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com ] > > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03 > > > > To: Margaret Wasserman > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > Hi Margaret, > > > > > > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue. > > > > > > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i > > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto > > element is > > > at > > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between=20 > > > > authenticator and supplicant. > > > > > > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of > > > KeyRSC sequence > > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant=20 > > > keep track=20 > > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by > > > tracking > > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the > > point of > > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the > > wireless channel. > > > > > > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC=20 > > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant).=20 > > > > > > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and > > > the crypto > > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a=20 > > > fairly common=20 > > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way > handshake but it > > > does > > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained=20 > > > by the WTP.=20 > > > > > > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not > > allow for a > > > way > > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.=20 > > > > > > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for the > > authenticator > > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC > > > (maintained by the=20 > > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake. > > > > > > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is > > to have part > > > of > > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow=20 > > > the 4-way > > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before > > > being sent to > > > > the wireless station. > > > > > > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.=20 > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Saravanan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto: margaret@thingmagic.com ] > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM=20 > > > > To: Saravanan Govindan > > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi again,=20 > > > > > > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...=20 > > > > > > > > Saravanan, you wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:=20 > > > > > > > >> Pat,=20 > > > >> > > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when > > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at=20 > > the WTP. This=20 > > > is > > > >> the requirement. > > > > > > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20 > > > >> The current specification allows the authenticator to > > > reside in the > > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This > > > feature is=20 > > > >> already in the specification. > > > > > > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification. > > > > > > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for=20 > that is not > > > > already supported by the specification? And why do you > > think it is > > > > necessary? it will not be helpful to my understanding to > > > re-send your=20 > > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document... Please > > summarize > > > > what functionality you think is missing from the current > > > specification > > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to=20 > support IEEE > > > > 802.11i or any important use case. > > > > > > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus > > call on this > > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure=20 > > > that it has > > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to > > > decide on > > > > this issue. > > > > > > > > Thanks,=20 > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20 > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20 > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >=20 > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20 > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20 > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 > _________________________________________________________________=20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E5EF.674E7F32 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mike,

 

Regarding Section 11.3, I think the GTK update = procedure has to reflect the KeyRSC step. I will send text shortly for the WG’s consideration.


Cheers,

 

Saravanan

 

 

 

 


From: = Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September = 29, 2006 7:41 AM
To: Bob O'Hara = (boohara)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com; Cheng Hong
Subject: Re: [Capwap] = Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

 

Bob and all interested parties,

 

In the last round of edits, I updated Section 11.3 to describe = the GTK update procedure. I thought that it lines up pretty well with what's in = IEEE 802.11i (and implementations of IEEE 802.11i that I am aware = of).

 

Could someone make recommendations on how you think this section = should be updated?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

 

On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:

Dorothy,

 

The problem with this proposal is = that it is no more effective than sending a value of zero for the = KeyRSC.  It doesn't eliminate any potential attacks.  It doesn't add any functionality.  However, it does add cost and complexity = to the protocol. 

 -Bob
 

 

 


From: = Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September = 28, 2006 1:17 PM
To: Bob = O'Hara (boohara)
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat = Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com


Subject: = Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations


 

All,

Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, = describing the Key RSC field.:

"g) Key RSC. = This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive sequence counter (RSC) = for the
GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in = Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake and
Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used = to synchronize the IEEE 802.11 replay
state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure = Report frame, to report the TSC field value of
the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 = in other messages. The Key RSC field gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA = to identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key
RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the = remaining octets shall be set to 0. The least significant
octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of = the Key RSC field."


The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to = immediately minimize the number of
replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: = "The Key RSC field gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA = to identify replayed MPDUs."
Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the = current sequence counter (in most cases
not even close) of the GTK..

Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the = AC of its current GTK sequence counter, and the
AC would use the most recently received value in the = message 3 sent to new STAs. The RSC value
would not be  up to date at all times, but would be = closer than "0", not require an "in-the-critical-path
message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be = close to the intended use of the field.

Dorothy

On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com > wrote: =

Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this = area for
the 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key = KeyRSC value
of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to
802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if = we want
this behavior to be consistent across all implementations.

The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of =
three different things are required:
1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it = is
updated, or
2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for = the
KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or
3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it can insert = the KeyRSC
value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the = proper
EAPOL-key frame.

The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP
communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for
every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not
acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is = acknowledged.  This is
a very expensive addition to the protocol.

The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during = what
can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, = roam)
from one WTP to another.  It also introduces a race condition = that is
not present in the protocol today.  Once the value for the = KeyRSC is
sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
another multicast frame encrypted with the group key.  This = puts the
value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be =
shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the = AC.
This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in = the
EAPOL-key frame.

The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required in =
our objectives.  The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting
the authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a = potential
reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these
devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and =
more easily compromised than the AC.

The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is = to
use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value = of
zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.

-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com ]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; =
Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i = Considerations

Hi Pat and all,

So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the =
correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design.

So far, we have three option/solutions:

1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.

2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP

3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and =
AC

Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it
requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not =
mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed =
by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group = KeyRSC
should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or = 802.11,
because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided =
by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant = with
CAPWAP and 802.11i.

Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of =
mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent
analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the = impact.
If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear = in
the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value, =
what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 = could
provide us a better understanding of the issue.

For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope. =
Further analysis could help us to decide which one  is better = (or
someone could propose other solutions).

cheers

Cheng Hong







> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> Considerations
>
> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in
> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes.
> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use
> any other value, which would require some form of
> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cheng Hong [mailto: Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM
> > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson
> J (LI/EAB)
> > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > Considerations
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > If I understand your description below correct, you are = proposing a
> > solution (to the problem pointed out by
> > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set = the
> > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
> >
> > This is not a defined behavior according to the current
> > 802.11 standard.
> > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically
> mandate that
> > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a = CAPWAP
> compatible
> > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists,
> > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you = described.
> >
> > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 = standard
> > revision? (since based on your description, there is = essentially no
> > use of the KeyRSC).
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Cheng Hong
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto: = boohara@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM
> > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
> > > Considerations
> > >
> > > Charles, Peter,
> > >
> > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this =
> > topic that I
> > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think = this will be
> helpful to
> > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting = is not
> > > necessary.  In fact, there are several systems = from several
> > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to =
> CAPWAP that
> > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using = the
> > protocol as
> > > it is described below.
> > >
> > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the =
> > group key, not
> > > the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP = and AC both
> know the
> > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, = since it has
> > > never been used to send a frame.   802.11i = requires the
> first frame
> > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1.  See
> > 8.3.2.6 = c)
> > > and
> > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement.
> > >
> > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the = WTP begins
> > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence =
> > counter for
> > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key
> > handshake with a
> > > newly associated STA.
> > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is = not
> > necessary
> > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about = the
> group key
> > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
> > >
> > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is = necessary to
> > > calculate the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific
> > relationship to the
> > > RSC value maintained by the WTP.  A value of = zero in the
> EAPOL-key
> > > frame for the group key will always work.
> > >
> > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received = in the
> > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the = value
> > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> > >
> > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared = against the
> > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify = replay
> > > attacks.  Any frame received with a sequence = counter value
> > within the
> > > replay window will be checked to have a valid = MIC.  If the
> > MIC is not
> > > valid, the frame is dropped.
> > >
> > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a = replay
> attack frame
> > > and meets all other validity and authenticity = requirements,
> > the client
> > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the = received
> > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC = value.
> > Only the
> > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame
> received by the
> > > STA.
> > >
> > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the = reason
> that the AC
> > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC. =
> > >
> > >
> > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to = send
> frames to
> > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame = and
> > the first
> > > frame encrypted with the group key.
> > > During this time, the client will receive the frame = and
> proceed to
> > > validate its MIC.  This is a potential attack = against the STA
> > > resources.  But, the MIC validation is done in = the STA's
> > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than = receiving
> any other
> > > frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually = consume any STA
> > resources
> > > beyond those of receiving a frame.
> > >
> > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero = for
> > the KeyRSC,
> > > either.  The same attack is available to an = attacker at any other
> > > time, as well.  It is no more nor less = effective at either time.
> > >
> > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any = changes to
> > > address the issue raised by Saranavan.
> > >
> > >  -Bob
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto: = clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM
> > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > >
> > > This is a very interesting solution.  The AC = selects the
> KeyRSC and
> > > performs the 4-way handshake.  The WTP sniffs = the 4-way handshake
> > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to
> > initialize its own
> > > counter.
> > >
> > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works?  I
> > have to agree
> > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical
> description of how
> > > Cisco implements it.
> > >
> > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner = to
> > have the AC
> > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile = message
> > as Behcet
> > > suggests.
> > >
> > > --
> > > t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu =   |
> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a = prototype
> > impelementation of
> > > the
> > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. = The way
> > > we solved
> > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all = CAPWAP data
> > > messages
> > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way = handshake or
> > > message 1 of
> > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC
> > > before
> > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the = sniffing on
> > > all CAPWAP
> > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in = CAPWAP to
> > > handle these
> > > > two messages.
> > > >
> > > > Peter Nilsson
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Saravanan = Govindan
> > > [mailto: Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]
> > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> > > > To: Margaret Wasserman
> > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > > Hi Margaret,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this = issue.
> > > >
> > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when = the 802.11i
> > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i = crypto
> > element is
> > > at
> > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between
> > > > authenticator and supplicant.
> > > >
> > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value = of
> > > KeyRSC sequence
> > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and = supplicant
> > > keep track
> > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against = threats by
> > > tracking
> > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the = at the
> > point of
> > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over = the
> > wireless channel.
> > > >
> > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is = between the AC
> > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station = (supplicant).
> > > >
> > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the = AC and
> > > the crypto
> > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This = is a
> > > fairly common
> > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the = 4-way
> handshake but it
> > > does
> > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is = maintained
> > > by the WTP.
> > > >
> > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does = not
> > allow for a
> > > way
> > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct = KeyRSC.
> > > >
> > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for = the
> > authenticator
> > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of = KeyRSC
> > > (maintained by the
> > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake.
> > > >
> > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP = is
> > to have part
> > > of
> > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This = will allow
> > > the 4-way
> > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC = before
> > > being sent to
> > > > the wireless station.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto: = margaret@thingmagic.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM
> > > > To: Saravanan = Govindan
> > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
> > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi again,
> > > >
> > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I = was...
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Pat,
> > > >>
> > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges = are done when
> > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements = are at
> > the WTP. This
> > > is
> > > >> the requirement.
> > > >
> > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) = wrote:
> > > >> The current specification allows the = authenticator to
> > > reside in the
> > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the = WTP. This
> > > feature is
> > > >> already in the specification.
> > > >
> > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the = specification.
> > > >
> > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for =
> that is not
> > > > already supported by the = specification?  And why do you
> > think it is
> > > > necessary?  it will not be helpful to my understanding to
> > > re-send your
> > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document...  Please
> > summarize
> > > > what functionality you think is missing from the = current
> > > specification
> > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to =
> support IEEE
> > > > 802.11i or any important use case.
> > > >
> > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a = consensus
> > call on this
> > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make = sure
> > > that it has
> > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask = the WG to
> > > decide on
> > > > this issue.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Margaret
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> _________________________________________________________________ =
> > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription = options,
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> > > >
> _________________________________________________________________ =
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> > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E5EF.674E7F32-- --===============1175612706== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1175612706==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 02 12:41:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUQrW-00019i-QG for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 12:41:50 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUQrT-0003Sm-2m for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 12:41:50 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA023980BA for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F7D5430018 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40559398028 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0406F398035 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Oct 2006 09:36:33 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,245,1157353200"; d="scan'208"; a="444695522:sNHT151228212" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k92GaXnk019535; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:36:33 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k92GaWYp015756; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:36:32 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:36:31 -0700 Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC021893C9@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: Acbk5dk/jHe9QPtjQ1ebZ0mRqvN5zQBWHskA From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: "Charles Clancy" , "Margaret Wasserman" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Oct 2006 16:36:32.0665 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB4D6090:01C6E640] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1.cisco.com; header.From=boohara@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea2fecb570ff0fcea6acb63c501a031d Charles, Please see my comments below. -Bob -----Original Message----- From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:11 PM To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations I've reread the thread and reread the relevent portions of 11i. I think my statements before were partially inaccurate. The security and overhead ramifications are not insignificant. We can: 1. Set the KeyRSC to a static value. This increases the risk of replay attacks of multicast/broadcast packets encrypted with the group key between the time the client authenticates and when the first legitimate group key-encrypted packet is transmitted. Bob>> I don't believe that this increases the risk of replay attack. The risk of attack is related to the presence of an attacker and the time between the 4-way handshake and the next multicast frame transmitted by the AP. As long as the possibility exists that the KeyRSC does not match the actual TSC, this attack is feasible. Bob>> It should be noted that "replay" of encrypted/MICed multicast frames is inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has more than one AP in it. Because the load and availability of transmit opportunities varies with time, location, and channel, it is likely that the STA will encounter a situation where it has received one or more multicast frames from one AP that it will receive again from a second AP that it has just roamed to. The multicast frames at the second AP have been delayed due to that AP having fewer opportunities to transmit, resulting in longer queuing delays for the first transmission of those multicast frames. 2. Periodically transmit the KeyRSC from the WTP to the AC. This would allow for fewer packets to be replayed, but would not completely prevent replay attacks. Probabalistically, it would weaken their effectiveness. The added price is more protocol overhead. 3. Have the WTP request the GTK prior to initiating the 4-way handshake. This would eliminate replay attacks, but add one round trip to the authentication process. This could possibly be optimized by having the WTP detect EAPOL message 1 being sent to the STA, and immediately transmit it to the AC before it needs it for EAPOL message 3. Bob>> The WTP already has the GTK, if it has any STAs associated. There is no need for it to request it from the AC. I am not sure what this would accomplish. Transporting the KCK to the WTP breaks the security model, and should not be considered a viable option. Bob>> Agreed. None of the approaches affect the STA operation, or require any changes to 802.11. Bob>> Agreed. Here's a question: what happens if the newly authenticated STA tries to transmit a GTK-encrypted packet using RSC=0? Would it get dropped? Is this a problem, particularly for protocols such as DHCP? Bob>> The STA cannot transmit on the GTK, this is not allowed by 802.11. Any frame sent to a multicast destination in 802.11 by an associated STA must be sent directly to the AP, encrypted on the PTK, where it is then decrypted and forwarded (both to the wire and to the BSS encrypted on the GTK) as a multicast frame. Only the frame from the AP will be encrypted on the GTK. All STAs are required to drop any frames addressed to them that are not sent from the AP, when associated to an AP. This is done prior to checking MIC or decrypting the frame. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. <> tcc@umd.edu <> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy On Sat, September 30, 2006 12:00 pm, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > > Could one of you explain to me what the implications would be of the > AC always using an RSC value of 0 to compute the MIC in message 3 of > the 4-way handshake? > > Would this reduce/eliminate the value of the RSC as a security > mechanism? Does it imply something about how the WTP needs to > behave? Something about how the supplicant needs to behave? > > Thanks, > Margaret > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:43 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > >> To be fair, one option requires that message 3 be created, and >> encrypted, in the WTP. This implies that encryption and authentication >> keys required to formulate message 3 be sent to the WTP. >> >> Seems to me simpler to include text that either states the value of >> zero >> is always used (simplest), or some configurable value be sent to >> the WTP >> (simpler). >> >> Pat Calhoun >> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >> Cisco Systems >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] >>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:07 PM >>> To: Cheng Hong >>> Cc: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun >>> (pacalhou); Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com; >>> Saravanan Govindan >>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>> >>> All, >>> >>> I'm glad to see we're finally arguing about the right issue. >>> As discussed, the Cisco solution to the problem is "set it to zero". >>> Certainly sniffing the value works as well. From a security >>> standpoint either is just fine. >>> >>> We do have an interoperability issue, however, if a Cisco WTP >>> were used with an AC that's randomly generating a KeyRSC and >>> expecting the WTP to sniff it. So, I think some text is >>> necessary to address the issue. >>> >>> What remains are two entrenched opinions about protocol >>> flexibility vs simplicity, neither of which would >>> significantly tilt the flexibility vs simplicity balance in >>> either of direction. Let's flip a coin and move on to more >>> important issues. >>> >>> -- >>> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy >>> >>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Cheng Hong wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bob, >>>> >>>> As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC >>> to a value >>>> closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a >>>> pre-defined value zero. >>>> >>>> It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC >>>> value to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to >>>> correctly synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating >>> the KeyRSC >>>> to zero, we are just disabling the tool. It is not wrong, but just >>>> deprives the system a designed function. >>>> >>>> As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a >>> predefined value of >>>> 0 would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is >>>> currently 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be >>> always zero, the >>>> attacker basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets >>> to the STA >>>> without being detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a >>> closer value of >>>> the current RSC, say, 900, the number of possible replayed >>> packets can >>>> be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets. >>>> >>>> Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero >>> does place a >>>> bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you >>>> could share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove >>>> otherwise. Or, you have some other considerations that >>> could defend the >>>> replay attack? >>>> >>>> cheers >>>> >>>> Cheng Hong >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM >>>> To: Dorothy Stanley >>>> Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; >>> Peter Nilsson >>>> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com >>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>>> >>>> >>>> Dorothy, >>>> >>>> The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than >>>> sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC. It doesn't eliminate any >>>> potential attacks. It doesn't add any functionality. >>> However, it does >>>> add cost and complexity to the protocol. >>>> >>>> -Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM >>>> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) >>>> Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; >>> Peter Nilsson >>>> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com >>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>>> >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, >>> describing the Key >>>> RSC field.: >>>> >>>> "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains >>> the receive >>>> sequence counter (RSC) for the >>>> GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 >>> of the 4-Way >>>> Handshake and >>>> Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to >>> synchronize >>>> the IEEE 802.11 replay >>>> state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure >>> Report frame, to >>>> report the TSC field value of >>>> the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other >>>> messages. The Key RSC field gives >>>> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify >>>> replayed MPDUs. If the Key >>>> RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the >>> remaining octets >>>> shall be set to 0. The least significant >>>> octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC >>>> field." >>>> >>>> The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to >>> immediately minimize >>>> the number of >>>> replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The >>> Key RSC field >>>> gives >>>> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify >>>> replayed MPDUs." >>>> Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the >>> current sequence >>>> counter (in most cases >>>> not even close) of the GTK.. >>>> >>>> Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its >>>> current GTK sequence counter, and the >>>> AC would use the most recently received value in the >>> message 3 sent to >>>> new STAs. The RSC value >>>> would not be up to date at all times, but would be closer >>> than "0", not >>>> require an "in-the-critical-path >>>> message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the >>>> intended use of the field. >>>> >>>> Dorothy >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote: >>>> >>>> Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in >>> this area for >>>> the 802.1X authenticator. Our choice to send a group key >>> KeyRSC value >>>> of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to >>>> 802.1X . It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, >>> if we want >>>> this behavior to be consistent across all implementations. >>>> >>>> The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is >>> that either of >>>> three different things are required: >>>> 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC >>> every time it is >>>> updated, or >>>> 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key >>> TSC for the >>>> KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or >>>> 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so that it can >>> insert the KeyRSC >>>> value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that >>> into the proper >>>> EAPOL-key frame. >>>> >>>> The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP >>>> communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for >>>> every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not >>>> acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is >>> acknowledged. This is >>>> a very expensive addition to the protocol. >>>> >>>> The second item requires new protocol between the AC and >>> WTP during what >>>> can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition >>> (handoff, roam) >>>> from one WTP to another. It also introduces a race >>> condition that is >>>> not present in the protocol today. Once the value for the KeyRSC is >>>> sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send >>>> another multicast frame encrypted with the group key. This puts the >>>> value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value >>> that will be >>>> shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame >>> from the AC. >>>> This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is >>> sent in the >>>> EAPOL-key frame. >>>> >>>> The third item requires a new architecture split that is >>> not required in >>>> >>>> our objectives. The new split is not splitting the MAC, >>> but splitting >>>> the authenticator. Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential >>>> reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these >>>> devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and >>>> more easily compromised than the AC. >>>> >>>> The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure >>> option is to >>>> use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC >>> send a value of >>>> zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. >>>> >>>> -Bob >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM >>>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; >>>> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) >>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com >>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>>> >>>> Hi Pat and all, >>>> >>>> So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that >>> setting the >>>> correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design. >>>> >>>> So far, we have three option/solutions: >>>> >>>> 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC. >>>> >>>> 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP >>>> >>>> 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism >>> between WTP and >>>> AC >>>> >>>> Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it >>>> requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) >>> that is not >>>> mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that >>> (e.g. as proposed >>>> by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC >>>> should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11, >>>> because otherwise there is no interoperability. For >>> example, AC provided >>>> by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be >>> compliant with >>>> CAPWAP and 802.11i. >>>> >>>> Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of >>>> mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent >>>> analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness >>> of the impact. >>>> If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it >>> appear in >>>> the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to >>> static value, >>>> what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or >>> 802.11 could >>>> provide us a better understanding of the issue. >>>> >>>> For the last two options, I think they are both within >>> CAPWAP's scope. >>>> Further analysis could help us to decide which one is better (or >>>> someone could propose other solutions). >>>> >>>> cheers >>>> >>>> Cheng Hong >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM >>>>> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; >>>>> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) >>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>>>> Considerations >>>>> >>>>> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in >>>>> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes. >>>>> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use >>>>> any other value, which would require some form of >>>>> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet. >>>>> >>>>> Pat Calhoun >>>>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >>>>> Cisco Systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto: >>>> Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM >>>>>> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson >>>>> J (LI/EAB) >>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>>>>> Considerations >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Bob, >>>>>> >>>>>> If I understand your description below correct, you are >>> proposing a >>>>>> solution (to the problem pointed out by >>>>>> Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the >>>>>> KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is not a defined behavior according to the current >>>>>> 802.11 standard. >>>>>> Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically >>>>> mandate that >>>>>> in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP >>>>> compatible >>>>>> AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists, >>>>>> since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described. >>>>>> >>>>>> Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard >>>>>> revision? (since based on your description, there is >>> essentially no >>>>>> use of the KeyRSC). >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheng Hong >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM >>>>>>> To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) >>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>>>>>> Considerations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Charles, Peter, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this >>>>>> topic that I >>>>>>> sent to the list on July 25, 2006. I think this will be >>>>> helpful to >>>>>>> understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not >>>>>>> necessary. In fact, there are several systems from several >>>>>>> manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to >>>>> CAPWAP that >>>>>>> are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the >>>>>> protocol as >>>>>>> it is described below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the >>>>>> group key, not >>>>>>> the pairwise key. This is so because the WTP and AC both >>>>> know the >>>>>>> initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has >>>>>>> never been used to send a frame. 802.11i requires the >>>>> first frame >>>>>>> sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1. See >>>>>> 8.3.2.6 c) >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins >>>>>>> operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence >>>>>> counter for >>>>>>> the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key >>>>>> handshake with a >>>>>>> newly associated STA. >>>>>>> However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not >>>>>> necessary >>>>>>> for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the >>>>> group key >>>>>>> KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to >>>>>>> calculate the KeyMIC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2. This value does not need to bear any specific >>>>>> relationship to the >>>>>>> RSC value maintained by the WTP. A value of zero in the >>>>> EAPOL-key >>>>>>> frame for the group key will always work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the >>>>>>> EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value >>>>>>> received in KeyRSC, say, zero. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the >>>>>>> sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay >>>>>>> attacks. Any frame received with a sequence counter value >>>>>> within the >>>>>>> replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC. If the >>>>>> MIC is not >>>>>>> valid, the frame is dropped. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay >>>>> attack frame >>>>>>> and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements, >>>>>> the client >>>>>>> STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received >>>>>>> frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value. >>>>>> Only the >>>>>>> AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame >>>>> received by the >>>>>>> STA. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason >>>>> that the AC >>>>>>> and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send >>>>> frames to >>>>>>> the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and >>>>>> the first >>>>>>> frame encrypted with the group key. >>>>>>> During this time, the client will receive the frame and >>>>> proceed to >>>>>>> validate its MIC. This is a potential attack against the STA >>>>>>> resources. But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's >>>>>>> 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving >>>>> any other >>>>>>> frame. Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA >>>>>> resources >>>>>>> beyond those of receiving a frame. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for >>>>>> the KeyRSC, >>>>>>> either. The same attack is available to an attacker at any other >>>>>>> time, as well. It is no more nor less effective at either time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to >>>>>>> address the issue raised by Saranavan. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Bob >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM >>>>>>> To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) >>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>>>>>> Considerations >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a very interesting solution. The AC selects the >>>>> KeyRSC and >>>>>>> performs the 4-way handshake. The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake >>>>>>> traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to >>>>>> initialize its own >>>>>>> counter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works? I >>>>>> have to agree >>>>>>> with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical >>>>> description of how >>>>>>> Cisco implements it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to >>>>>> have the AC >>>>>>> generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message >>>>>> as Behcet >>>>>>> suggests. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | >>>>> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype >>>>>> impelementation of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way >>>>>>> we solved >>>>>>>> this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data >>>>>>> messages >>>>>>>> from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or >>>>>>> message 1 of >>>>>>>> the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC >>>>>>> before >>>>>>>> sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on >>>>>>> all CAPWAP >>>>>>>> data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to >>>>>>> handle these >>>>>>>> two messages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Peter Nilsson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Saravanan Govindan >>>>>>> [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03 >>>>>>>> To: Margaret Wasserman >>>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>>>>>> Considerations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Margaret, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i >>>>>>>> authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto >>>>>> element is >>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between >>>>>>>> authenticator and supplicant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of >>>>>>> KeyRSC sequence >>>>>>>> counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant >>>>>>> keep track >>>>>>>> of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by >>>>>>> tracking >>>>>>>> sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the >>>>>> point of >>>>>>>> encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the >>>>>> wireless channel. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC >>>>>>>> (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and >>>>>>> the crypto >>>>>>>> element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a >>>>>>> fairly common >>>>>>>> design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way >>>>> handshake but it >>>>>>> does >>>>>>>> not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained >>>>>>> by the WTP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not >>>>>> allow for a >>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The functionality I would like to see is a way for the >>>>>> authenticator >>>>>>>> (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC >>>>>>> (maintained by the >>>>>>>> WTP) in its 4-way handshake. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is >>>>>> to have part >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow >>>>>>> the 4-way >>>>>>>> handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before >>>>>>> being sent to >>>>>>>> the wireless station. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Saravanan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM >>>>>>>> To: Saravanan Govindan >>>>>>>> Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>>>>>> Considerations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi again, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Saravanan, you wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pat, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when >>>>>>>>> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at >>>>>> the WTP. This >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> the requirement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: >>>>>>>>> The current specification allows the authenticator to >>>>>>> reside in the >>>>>>>>> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This >>>>>>> feature is >>>>>>>>> already in the specification. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pat's message matches my reading of the specification. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for >>>>> that is not >>>>>>>> already supported by the specification? And why do you >>>>>> think it is >>>>>>>> necessary? it will not be helpful to my understanding to >>>>>>> re-send your >>>>>>>> proposal or to cite the requirements document... Please >>>>>> summarize >>>>>>>> what functionality you think is missing from the current >>>>>>> specification >>>>>>>> and why you think that functionality is necessary to >>>>> support IEEE >>>>>>>> 802.11i or any important use case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus >>>>>> call on this >>>>>>>> issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure >>>>>>> that it has >>>>>>>> been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to >>>>>>> decide on >>>>>>>> this issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Margaret >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, >>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>>>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, >>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>>>> >>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>>> >>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 02 22:06:18 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUZfm-0001F3-Kw for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 22:06:18 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUZfj-0006Ec-3X for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 22:06:18 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08491448012 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4AE14300EA for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 18:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5E9398021 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 18:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD7B398097 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 18:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/bulls) with ESMTP id k931rMZa006998; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 10:53:22 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx2) with ESMTP id k931rM106772; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 10:53:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/bluejays) with ESMTP id k931rJ328576; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 10:53:20 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 09:49:15 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD012F23AE@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: Acbk5dk/jHe9QPtjQ1ebZ0mRqvN5zQBWHskAABK2g9A= From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , "Charles Clancy" , "Margaret Wasserman" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.424 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ed7d9c7c8d25b2053aac33a860e1606d Dear all, Some comments below: cheers Cheng Hong > Bob>> I don't believe that this increases the risk of replay attack. > The risk of attack is related to the presence of an attacker > and the time between the 4-way handshake and the next > multicast frame transmitted by the AP. As long as the > possibility exists that the KeyRSC does not match the actual > TSC, this attack is feasible. As already discussed in previous emails, unless the KeyRSC follows the exact RSC value, there could be possible replay attacks. However, setting the KeyRSC to a static value does make things worse, since it opens the possibility for the attacker to replay any previous frames. Repeat the same example: Setting KeyRSC to 0 allows 1000 frames to be replayed, and setting KeyRSC to a value close to 1000, say 900, will reduce the possible replay frames to 100. The risk is not measured with the "time between the 4-way handshake and the next multicast frame transmitted by the AP". By looking at the sheer number of possible replayed frames, the risk is increased by setting KeyRSC to a static value 0. > Bob>> It should be noted that "replay" of encrypted/MICed multicast > frames is inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has > more than one AP in it. Because the load and availability of > transmit opportunities varies with time, location, and > channel, it is likely that the STA will encounter a situation > where it has received one or more multicast frames from one > AP that it will receive again from a second AP that it has > just roamed to. The multicast frames at the second AP have > been delayed due to that AP having fewer opportunities to > transmit, resulting in longer queuing delays for the first > transmission of those multicast frames. As already pointed out in several emails, the RSC is maintained per GTKSA. So, if the different APs are using different GTK, different RSCs will be used. Not issue exists, since the frames from different APs are checked against different TSC space (suppose TKIP is used as stated in clause 8.3.2.6). Even in the case that all the APs are sharing the same GTK, the procedure defined in clause 8.3.2.6 will be carried out at STA. Duplicated frames will be dropped. There is no place showing the "replay" is "inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has more than one AP in it". > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:37 AM > To: Charles Clancy; Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Charles, > > Please see my comments below. > > -Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:11 PM > To: Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > I've reread the thread and reread the relevent portions of > 11i. I think my statements before were partially inaccurate. > The security and overhead ramifications are not insignificant. > > We can: > > 1. Set the KeyRSC to a static value. This increases the risk > of replay attacks of multicast/broadcast packets encrypted > with the group key between the time the client authenticates > and when the first legitimate group key-encrypted packet is > transmitted. > > Bob>> I don't believe that this increases the risk of replay attack. > The risk of attack is related to the presence of an attacker > and the time between the 4-way handshake and the next > multicast frame transmitted by the AP. As long as the > possibility exists that the KeyRSC does not match the actual > TSC, this attack is feasible. > > Bob>> It should be noted that "replay" of encrypted/MICed multicast > frames is inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has > more than one AP in it. Because the load and availability of > transmit opportunities varies with time, location, and > channel, it is likely that the STA will encounter a situation > where it has received one or more multicast frames from one > AP that it will receive again from a second AP that it has > just roamed to. The multicast frames at the second AP have > been delayed due to that AP having fewer opportunities to > transmit, resulting in longer queuing delays for the first > transmission of those multicast frames. > > 2. Periodically transmit the KeyRSC from the WTP to the AC. > This would allow for fewer packets to be replayed, but would > not completely prevent replay attacks. Probabalistically, it > would weaken their effectiveness. > > The added price is more protocol overhead. > > 3. Have the WTP request the GTK prior to initiating the 4-way > handshake. > > This would eliminate replay attacks, but add one round trip > to the authentication process. This could possibly be > optimized by having the WTP detect EAPOL message 1 being sent > to the STA, and immediately transmit it to the AC before it > needs it for EAPOL message 3. > > Bob>> The WTP already has the GTK, if it has any STAs > associated. There > is no need for it to request it from the AC. I am not sure > what this would accomplish. > > Transporting the KCK to the WTP breaks the security model, > and should not be considered a viable option. > > Bob>> Agreed. > > None of the approaches affect the STA operation, or require > any changes to 802.11. > > Bob>> Agreed. > > Here's a question: what happens if the newly authenticated > STA tries to transmit a GTK-encrypted packet using RSC=0? > Would it get dropped? Is this a problem, particularly for > protocols such as DHCP? > > Bob>> The STA cannot transmit on the GTK, this is not allowed > by 802.11. > Any frame sent to a multicast destination in 802.11 by an > associated STA must be sent directly to the AP, encrypted on > the PTK, where it is then decrypted and forwarded (both to > the wire and to the BSS encrypted on the GTK) as a multicast > frame. Only the frame from the AP will be encrypted on the > GTK. All STAs are required to drop any frames addressed to > them that are not sent from the AP, when associated to an AP. > This is done prior to checking MIC or decrypting the frame. > > -- > t. charles clancy, ph.d. <> tcc@umd.edu <> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > On Sat, September 30, 2006 12:00 pm, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > > > > > Could one of you explain to me what the implications would > be of the > > AC always using an RSC value of 0 to compute the MIC in > message 3 of > > the 4-way handshake? > > > > Would this reduce/eliminate the value of the RSC as a security > > mechanism? Does it imply something about how the WTP needs > to behave? > > Something about how the supplicant needs to behave? > > > > Thanks, > > Margaret > > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:43 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > > >> To be fair, one option requires that message 3 be created, and > >> encrypted, in the WTP. This implies that encryption and > authentication > >> keys required to formulate message 3 be sent to the WTP. > >> > >> Seems to me simpler to include text that either states the > value of > >> zero is always used (simplest), or some configurable value > be sent to > >> the WTP (simpler). > >> > >> Pat Calhoun > >> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > >> > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > >>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:07 PM > >>> To: Cheng Hong > >>> Cc: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun > >>> (pacalhou); Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com; > >>> Saravanan Govindan > >>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>> Considerations > >>> > >>> All, > >>> > >>> I'm glad to see we're finally arguing about the right issue. > >>> As discussed, the Cisco solution to the problem is "set > it to zero". > >>> Certainly sniffing the value works as well. From a security > >>> standpoint either is just fine. > >>> > >>> We do have an interoperability issue, however, if a Cisco WTP > >>> were used with an AC that's randomly generating a KeyRSC and > >>> expecting the WTP to sniff it. So, I think some text is > >>> necessary to address the issue. > >>> > >>> What remains are two entrenched opinions about protocol > >>> flexibility vs simplicity, neither of which would > >>> significantly tilt the flexibility vs simplicity balance in > >>> either of direction. Let's flip a coin and move on to more > >>> important issues. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | > www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > >>> > >>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Cheng Hong wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Bob, > >>>> > >>>> As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC > >>> to a value > >>>> closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a > >>>> pre-defined value zero. > >>>> > >>>> It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the > KeyRSC > >>>> value to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to > >>>> correctly synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating > >>> the KeyRSC > >>>> to zero, we are just disabling the tool. It is not > wrong, but just > >>>> deprives the system a designed function. > >>>> > >>>> As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a > >>> predefined value of > >>>> 0 would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is > >>>> currently 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be > >>> always zero, the > >>>> attacker basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets > >>> to the STA > >>>> without being detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a > >>> closer value of > >>>> the current RSC, say, 900, the number of possible replayed > >>> packets can > >>>> be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets. > >>>> > >>>> Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero > >>> does place a > >>>> bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe > you > >>>> could share with us some other implementation/testing > data to prove > >>>> otherwise. Or, you have some other considerations that > >>> could defend the > >>>> replay attack? > >>>> > >>>> cheers > >>>> > >>>> Cheng Hong > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _____ > >>>> > >>>> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] > >>>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM > >>>> To: Dorothy Stanley > >>>> Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; > >>> Peter Nilsson > >>>> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com > >>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>> Considerations > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dorothy, > >>>> > >>>> The problem with this proposal is that it is no more > effective than > >>>> sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC. It doesn't eliminate any > >>>> potential attacks. It doesn't add any functionality. > >>> However, it does > >>>> add cost and complexity to the protocol. > >>>> > >>>> -Bob > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _____ > >>>> > >>>> From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM > >>>> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > >>>> Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; > >>> Peter Nilsson > >>>> J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>> Considerations > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> All, > >>>> > >>>> Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, > >>> describing the Key > >>>> RSC field.: > >>>> > >>>> "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains > >>> the receive > >>>> sequence counter (RSC) for the > >>>> GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 > >>> of the 4-Way > >>>> Handshake and > >>>> Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to > >>> synchronize > >>>> the IEEE 802.11 replay > >>>> state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure > >>> Report frame, to > >>>> report the TSC field value of > >>>> the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other > >>>> messages. The Key RSC field gives > >>>> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA > to identify > >>>> replayed MPDUs. If the Key > >>>> RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the > >>> remaining octets > >>>> shall be set to 0. The least significant > >>>> octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of > the Key RSC > >>>> field." > >>>> > >>>> The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to > >>> immediately minimize > >>>> the number of > >>>> replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The > >>> Key RSC field > >>>> gives > >>>> the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA > to identify > >>>> replayed MPDUs." > >>>> Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the > >>> current sequence > >>>> counter (in most cases > >>>> not even close) of the GTK.. > >>>> > >>>> Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the > AC of its > >>>> current GTK sequence counter, and the > >>>> AC would use the most recently received value in the > >>> message 3 sent to > >>>> new STAs. The RSC value > >>>> would not be up to date at all times, but would be closer > >>> than "0", not > >>>> require an "in-the-critical-path > >>>> message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be > close to the > >>>> intended use of the field. > >>>> > >>>> Dorothy > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in > >>> this area for > >>>> the 802.1X authenticator. Our choice to send a group key > >>> KeyRSC value > >>>> of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to > 802.11i or to > >>>> 802.1X . It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, > >>> if we want > >>>> this behavior to be consistent across all implementations. > >>>> > >>>> The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is > >>> that either of > >>>> three different things are required: > >>>> 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC > >>> every time it is > >>>> updated, or > >>>> 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key > >>> TSC for the > >>>> KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or > >>>> 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so that it can > >>> insert the KeyRSC > >>>> value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that > >>> into the proper > >>>> EAPOL-key frame. > >>>> > >>>> The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP > >>>> communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet > for > >>>> every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not > >>>> acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is > >>> acknowledged. This is > >>>> a very expensive addition to the protocol. > >>>> > >>>> The second item requires new protocol between the AC and > >>> WTP during what > >>>> can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition > >>> (handoff, roam) > >>>> from one WTP to another. It also introduces a race > >>> condition that is > >>>> not present in the protocol today. Once the value for the KeyRSC > is > >>>> sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send > >>>> another multicast frame encrypted with the group key. This puts > the > >>>> value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value > >>> that will be > >>>> shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame > >>> from the AC. > >>>> This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is > >>> sent in the > >>>> EAPOL-key frame. > >>>> > >>>> The third item requires a new architecture split that is > >>> not required in > >>>> > >>>> our objectives. The new split is not splitting the MAC, > >>> but splitting > >>>> the authenticator. Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a > potential > >>>> reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these > >>>> devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed > and > >>>> more easily compromised than the AC. > >>>> > >>>> The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure > >>> option is to > >>>> use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC > >>> send a value of > >>>> zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. > >>>> > >>>> -Bob > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM > >>>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles > Clancy; > >>>> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > >>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com > >>>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>> Considerations > >>>> > >>>> Hi Pat and all, > >>>> > >>>> So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that > >>> setting the > >>>> correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design. > >>>> > >>>> So far, we have three option/solutions: > >>>> > >>>> 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC. > >>>> > >>>> 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP > >>>> > >>>> 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism > >>> between WTP and > >>>> AC > >>>> > >>>> Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it > >>>> requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) > >>> that is not > >>>> mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that > >>> (e.g. as proposed > >>>> by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group > KeyRSC > >>>> should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or > 802.11, > >>>> because otherwise there is no interoperability. For > >>> example, AC provided > >>>> by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be > >>> compliant with > >>>> CAPWAP and 802.11i. > >>>> > >>>> Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact > of > >>>> mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided > an excellent > >>>> analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness > >>> of the impact. > >>>> If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it > >>> appear in > >>>> the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to > >>> static value, > >>>> what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or > >>> 802.11 could > >>>> provide us a better understanding of the issue. > >>>> > >>>> For the last two options, I think they are both within > >>> CAPWAP's scope. > >>>> Further analysis could help us to decide which one is better (or > >>>> someone could propose other solutions). > >>>> > >>>> cheers > >>>> > >>>> Cheng Hong > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com] > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM > >>>>> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; > >>>>> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > >>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>>>> Considerations > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in > >>>>> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes. > >>>>> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use > >>>>> any other value, which would require some form of > >>>>> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet. > >>>>> > >>>>> Pat Calhoun > >>>>> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > >>>>> Cisco Systems > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Cheng Hong [mailto: > >>>> Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM > >>>>>> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson > >>>>> J (LI/EAB) > >>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>>>>> Considerations > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Bob, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If I understand your description below correct, you are > >>> proposing a > >>>>>> solution (to the problem pointed out by > >>>>>> Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to > always set the > >>>>>> KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is not a defined behavior according to the current > >>>>>> 802.11 standard. > >>>>>> Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically > >>>>> mandate that > >>>>>> in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP > >>>>> compatible > >>>>>> AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem > still exists, > >>>>>> since not all AC implementation have to follow what you > described. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 > standard > >>>>>> revision? (since based on your description, there is > >>> essentially no > >>>>>> use of the KeyRSC). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> cheers > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheng Hong > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM > >>>>>>> To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > >>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>>>>>> Considerations > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Charles, Peter, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this > >>>>>> topic that I > >>>>>>> sent to the list on July 25, 2006. I think this will be > >>>>> helpful to > >>>>>>> understand why the exchange that Saranavan is > requesting is not > >>>>>>> necessary. In fact, there are several systems from several > >>>>>>> manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to > >>>>> CAPWAP that > >>>>>>> are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the > >>>>>> protocol as > >>>>>>> it is described below. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the > >>>>>> group key, not > >>>>>>> the pairwise key. This is so because the WTP and AC both > >>>>> know the > >>>>>>> initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it > has > >>>>>>> never been used to send a frame. 802.11i requires the > >>>>> first frame > >>>>>>> sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1. See > >>>>>> 8.3.2.6 c) > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP > begins > >>>>>>> operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence > >>>>>> counter for > >>>>>>> the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key > >>>>>> handshake with a > >>>>>>> newly associated STA. > >>>>>>> However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not > >>>>>> necessary > >>>>>>> for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the > >>>>> group key > >>>>>>> KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is > necessary to > >>>>>>> calculate the KeyMIC. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2. This value does not need to bear any specific > >>>>>> relationship to the > >>>>>>> RSC value maintained by the WTP. A value of zero in the > >>>>> EAPOL-key > >>>>>>> frame for the group key will always work. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the > >>>>>>> EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value > >>>>>>> received in KeyRSC, say, zero. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against > the > >>>>>>> sequence number in subsequent received frames to > identify replay > >>>>>>> attacks. Any frame received with a sequence counter value > >>>>>> within the > >>>>>>> replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC. If the > >>>>>> MIC is not > >>>>>>> valid, the frame is dropped. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay > >>>>> attack frame > >>>>>>> and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements, > >>>>>> the client > >>>>>>> STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in > the received > >>>>>>> frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value. > >>>>>> Only the > >>>>>>> AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame > >>>>> received by the > >>>>>>> STA. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason > >>>>> that the AC > >>>>>>> and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send > >>>>> frames to > >>>>>>> the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and > >>>>>> the first > >>>>>>> frame encrypted with the group key. > >>>>>>> During this time, the client will receive the frame and > >>>>> proceed to > >>>>>>> validate its MIC. This is a potential attack against the STA > >>>>>>> resources. But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's > >>>>>>> 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving > >>>>> any other > >>>>>>> frame. Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA > >>>>>> resources > >>>>>>> beyond those of receiving a frame. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for > >>>>>> the KeyRSC, > >>>>>>> either. The same attack is available to an attacker at any > other > >>>>>>> time, as well. It is no more nor less effective at > either time. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any > changes to > >>>>>>> address the issue raised by Saranavan. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -Bob > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM > >>>>>>> To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > >>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>>>>>> Considerations > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This is a very interesting solution. The AC selects the > >>>>> KeyRSC and > >>>>>>> performs the 4-way handshake. The WTP sniffs the 4-way > handshake > >>>>>>> traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to > >>>>>> initialize its own > >>>>>>> counter. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works? I > >>>>>> have to agree > >>>>>>> with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical > >>>>> description of how > >>>>>>> Cisco implements it. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to > >>>>>> have the AC > >>>>>>> generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message > >>>>>> as Behcet > >>>>>>> suggests. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | > >>>>> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype > >>>>>> impelementation of > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way > >>>>>>> we solved > >>>>>>>> this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data > >>>>>>> messages > >>>>>>>> from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or > >>>>>>> message 1 of > >>>>>>>> the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct > RSC > >>>>>>> before > >>>>>>>> sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on > >>>>>>> all CAPWAP > >>>>>>>> data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to > >>>>>>> handle these > >>>>>>>> two messages. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Peter Nilsson > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: Saravanan Govindan > >>>>>>> [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > >>>>>>>> Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03 > >>>>>>>> To: Margaret Wasserman > >>>>>>>> Cc: capwap@frascone.com > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>>>>>> Considerations > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Margaret, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when > the 802.11i > >>>>>>>> authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto > >>>>>> element is > >>>>>>> at > >>>>>>>> the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between > >>>>>>>> authenticator and supplicant. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of > >>>>>>> KeyRSC sequence > >>>>>>>> counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant > >>>>>>> keep track > >>>>>>>> of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by > >>>>>>> tracking > >>>>>>>> sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the > >>>>>> point of > >>>>>>>> encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the > >>>>>> wireless channel. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC > >>>>>>>> (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and > >>>>>>> the crypto > >>>>>>>> element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a > >>>>>>> fairly common > >>>>>>>> design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way > >>>>> handshake but it > >>>>>>> does > >>>>>>>> not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained > >>>>>>> by the WTP. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not > >>>>>> allow for a > >>>>>>> way > >>>>>>>> to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The functionality I would like to see is a way for the > >>>>>> authenticator > >>>>>>>> (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC > >>>>>>> (maintained by the > >>>>>>>> WTP) in its 4-way handshake. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is > >>>>>> to have part > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow > >>>>>>> the 4-way > >>>>>>>> handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before > >>>>>>> being sent to > >>>>>>>> the wireless station. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Saravanan > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM > >>>>>>>> To: Saravanan Govindan > >>>>>>>> Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>>>>>> Considerations > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi again, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Saravanan, you wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Pat, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when > >>>>>>>>> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at > >>>>>> the WTP. This > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>> the requirement. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > >>>>>>>>> The current specification allows the authenticator to > >>>>>>> reside in the > >>>>>>>>> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This > >>>>>>> feature is > >>>>>>>>> already in the specification. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Pat's message matches my reading of the specification. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for > >>>>> that is not > >>>>>>>> already supported by the specification? And why do you > >>>>>> think it is > >>>>>>>> necessary? it will not be helpful to my understanding to > >>>>>>> re-send your > >>>>>>>> proposal or to cite the requirements document... Please > >>>>>> summarize > >>>>>>>> what functionality you think is missing from the current > >>>>>>> specification > >>>>>>>> and why you think that functionality is necessary to > >>>>> support IEEE > >>>>>>>> 802.11i or any important use case. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus > >>>>>> call on this > >>>>>>>> issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure > >>>>>>> that it has > >>>>>>>> been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to > >>>>>>> decide on > >>>>>>>> this issue. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>>> Margaret > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > >>>>> please visit: > >>>>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > >>>>> please visit: > >>>>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please > visit: > >>>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>>>>>> > _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please > visit: > >>>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > >>>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > >>>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>>> > >>>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>>>> > >>>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>> > >>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >> > >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 02 22:30:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUa3O-0007Ap-Ta for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 22:30:42 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUa3J-0000du-DN for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 22:30:42 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273001448012 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CF543005F for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E4911448012 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0ADA1448025 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id k932KTP5008062; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:20:29 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id k932KVZ16811; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:20:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/astros) with ESMTP id k932KRq07573; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:20:28 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 10:19:19 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD012F23CF@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbjOwaBxAxmTegASwKjGKmQD0OreAAB7o8QAAZYQgAAILorcACsWBLA From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , "Dorothy Stanley" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP X-Spam-Level: Cc: Saravanan Govindan , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0896095452==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3f8115f1ca7975d69428d020de75047c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0896095452== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6E692.58739154" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E692.58739154 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now to address technical portion of your comment: Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity. A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms. See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions. And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is necessary. =20 [[Cheng Hong]] The mechanism defined in 802.11i detects the replay frame if the frame contains a sequence number out of order. However, if the KeyRSC has been set to 0, it means the initial RSC at the STA is forced to be 0 when it joins the BSS. This makes the STA to take any received frame as a valid frame since the sequence is in order. So, if the attacker replay frames with sequence in order, the STA has no way to detect that, until a frame of higher sequence order is received (supposedly by the actual AP instead of another attacker). =20 =20 As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC. This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or not. This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the STA. So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other frame. =20 [[Cheng Hong]] As commented above, the risk of setting the KeyRSC to 0 is to allow those replay frames to pass 802.11 chipset replay check procedures, and left the detection of the replay to higher layer, and it obviously poses higher DOS threats to the STA. Setting KeyRSC to a value closer to RSC will allow the replay being detected earlier, and reduces the possible DOS attack frames. =20 -Bob =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:34 PM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Hi Bob, =20 As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-defined value zero.=20 =20 It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC value to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we are just disabling the tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a designed function. =20 As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the attacker basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without being detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, say, 900, the number of possible replayed packets can be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets.=20 =20 Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does place a bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you could share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove otherwise. Or, you have some other considerations that could defend the replay attack? =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 _____ =20 From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM To: Dorothy Stanley Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Dorothy, =20 The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC. It doesn't eliminate any potential attacks. It doesn't add any functionality. However, it does add cost and complexity to the protocol. =20 -Bob =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations All, Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, describing the Key RSC field.: "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive sequence counter (RSC) for the GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake and Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11 replay state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value of the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. The Key RSC field gives the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set to 0. The least significant octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC field." The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of=20 replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field gives the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify replayed MPDUs." Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence counter (in most cases not even close) of the GTK.. Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its current GTK sequence counter, and the AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sent to new STAs. The RSC value would not be up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not require an "in-the-critical-path message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the intended use of the field. Dorothy On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote:=20 Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for the 802.1X authenticator. Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to 802.1X . It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we want this behavior to be consistent across all implementations. The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of three different things are required:=20 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it is updated, or 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for the KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so that it can insert the KeyRSC value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the proper EAPOL-key frame. The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP=20 communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is acknowledged. This is a very expensive addition to the protocol.=20 The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during what can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, roam) from one WTP to another. It also introduces a race condition that is=20 not present in the protocol today. Once the value for the KeyRSC is sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send another multicast frame encrypted with the group key. This puts the value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be=20 shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC. This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the EAPOL-key frame. The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required in our objectives. The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting the authenticator. Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and=20 more easily compromised than the AC. The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.=20 -Bob -----Original Message----- From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;=20 Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Hi Pat and all, So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the=20 correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design. So far, we have three option/solutions: 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC. 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP=20 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and AC Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not=20 mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11, because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with CAPWAP and 802.11i. Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of=20 mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the impact. If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear in the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value, what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could provide us a better understanding of the issue. For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope.=20 Further analysis could help us to decide which one is better (or someone could propose other solutions). cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM > To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; > Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in=20 > this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes. > Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use > any other value, which would require some form of > communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20 > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cheng Hong [mailto: Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson > J (LI/EAB) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > Considerations > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a=20 > > solution (to the problem pointed out by > > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the > > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero. > > > > This is not a defined behavior according to the current=20 > > 802.11 standard. > > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically > mandate that > > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP > compatible > > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists, > > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described. > > > > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard > > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially no > > use of the KeyRSC). > > > > cheers > > > > Cheng Hong > > > >=20 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM=20 > > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i=20 > > > Considerations > > > > > > Charles, Peter, > > > > > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this > > topic that I > > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006. I think this will be=20 > helpful to > > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not > > > necessary. In fact, there are several systems from several > > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to=20 > CAPWAP that > > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the > > protocol as > > > it is described below. > > > > > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the=20 > > group key, not > > > the pairwise key. This is so because the WTP and AC both > know the > > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has > > > never been used to send a frame. 802.11i requires the > first frame > > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1. See > > 8.3.2.6 c) > > > and > > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement. > > > > > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins > > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence > > counter for=20 > > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key > > handshake with a > > > newly associated STA. > > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not > > necessary > > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the > group key > > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended. > > > > > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to=20 > > > calculate the KeyMIC. > > > > > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific > > relationship to the > > > RSC value maintained by the WTP. A value of zero in the=20 > EAPOL-key > > > frame for the group key will always work. > > > > > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the > > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC.=20 > > > > > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value > > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero. > > > > > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the=20 > > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay > > > attacks. Any frame received with a sequence counter value > > within the > > > replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC. If the=20 > > MIC is not > > > valid, the frame is dropped. > > > > > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay > attack frame > > > and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements,=20 > > the client > > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received > > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value. > > Only the > > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame=20 > received by the > > > STA. > > > > > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason > that the AC > > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.=20 > > > > > > > > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send > frames to > > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and > > the first=20 > > > frame encrypted with the group key. > > > During this time, the client will receive the frame and > proceed to > > > validate its MIC. This is a potential attack against the STA=20 > > > resources. But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's > > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving > any other > > > frame. Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA=20 > > resources > > > beyond those of receiving a frame. > > > > > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for > > the KeyRSC, > > > either. The same attack is available to an attacker at any other=20 > > > time, as well. It is no more nor less effective at either time. > > > > > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to > > > address the issue raised by Saranavan.=20 > > > > > > -Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM=20 > > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations=20 > > > > > > This is a very interesting solution. The AC selects the > KeyRSC and > > > performs the 4-way handshake. The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake > > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to=20 > > initialize its own > > > counter. > > > > > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works? I > > have to agree > > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical=20 > description of how > > > Cisco implements it. > > > > > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to > > have the AC > > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message=20 > > as Behcet > > > suggests. > > > > > > -- > > > t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | > www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote: > > > > > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype > > impelementation of=20 > > > the > > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way > > > we solved > > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data > > > messages=20 > > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or > > > message 1 of > > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC > > > before=20 > > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on > > > all CAPWAP > > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to > > > handle these=20 > > > > two messages. > > > > > > > > Peter Nilsson > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Saravanan Govindan > > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03 > > > > To: Margaret Wasserman > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > Hi Margaret, > > > > > > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue. > > > > > > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i > > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto > > element is > > > at > > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between=20 > > > > authenticator and supplicant. > > > > > > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of > > > KeyRSC sequence > > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant=20 > > > keep track > > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by > > > tracking > > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the > > point of > > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the > > wireless channel. > > > > > > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC=20 > > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant). > > > > > > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and > > > the crypto > > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a=20 > > > fairly common > > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way > handshake but it > > > does > > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained=20 > > > by the WTP. > > > > > > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not > > allow for a > > > way > > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.=20 > > > > > > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for the > > authenticator > > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC > > > (maintained by the=20 > > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake. > > > > > > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is > > to have part > > > of > > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow=20 > > > the 4-way > > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before > > > being sent to > > > > the wireless station. > > > > > > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.=20 > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Saravanan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM=20 > > > > To: Saravanan Govindan > > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi again, > > > > > > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was...=20 > > > > > > > > Saravanan, you wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote: > > > > > > > >> Pat,=20 > > > >> > > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when > > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at > > the WTP. This=20 > > > is > > > >> the requirement. > > > > > > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20 > > > >> The current specification allows the authenticator to > > > reside in the > > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This > > > feature is=20 > > > >> already in the specification. > > > > > > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification. > > > > > > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for=20 > that is not > > > > already supported by the specification? And why do you > > think it is > > > > necessary? it will not be helpful to my understanding to > > > re-send your=20 > > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document... Please > > summarize > > > > what functionality you think is missing from the current > > > specification > > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to=20 > support IEEE > > > > 802.11i or any important use case. > > > > > > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus > > call on this > > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure=20 > > > that it has > > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to > > > decide on > > > > this issue. > > > > > > > > Thanks,=20 > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =20 > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =20 > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >=20 > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20 > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20 > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =20 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________=20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E692.58739154 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now to=20 address technical portion of your comment:
Again, your proposal does not eliminate any = attack=20 mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only = cost and=20 complexity.  A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using = the=20 normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.  See section=20 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame = sequence number=20 is part of the additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of=20 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions.  And = PLEASE read=20 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is=20 necessary.
 
[[Cheng Hong]] The = mechanism defined=20 in 802.11i detects the replay frame if the frame contains a = sequence=20 number out of order. However, if the KeyRSC has been set to 0, it = means the=20 initial RSC at the STA is forced to be 0 when it joins the BSS. This = makes the=20 STA to take any received frame as a valid frame since the sequence is = in=20 order. So, if the attacker replay frames with sequence in order, the = STA has=20 no way to detect that, until a frame of higher sequence order is = received=20 (supposedly by the actual AP instead of another=20 attacker).
 
 
As I said several emails ago, the ONLY = effect of=20 using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in = the STA=20 (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and = validate=20 the MIC.  This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it = is a=20 replayed frame or not.  This set of functions is performed in the = 802.11=20 STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the = STA. =20 So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no = more=20 effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other frame.
 

[[Cheng Hong]]  As commented = above, the=20 risk of setting the KeyRSC to 0 is to allow those replay frames to = pass 802.11=20 chipset replay check procedures, and left the detection of the replay = to=20 higher layer, and it obviously poses higher DOS threats to the STA. = Setting=20 KeyRSC to a value closer to RSC will allow the replay being detected = earlier,=20 and reduces the possible DOS attack=20 frames.
 

 -Bob
 

 


From: Cheng Hong=20 [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent: Thursday, = September 28,=20 2006 5:34 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy = Stanley
Cc:=20 Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20 capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan
Subject: RE: = [Capwap] Issue=20 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

Hi=20 Bob,
 
As=20 Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value = closer to=20 the current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-defined value = zero.=20
 
It=20 is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC = value to be=20 used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly = synchronize the=20 RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we are just = disabling=20 the tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a designed=20 function.
 
As=20 for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 = would=20 pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently = 1000, and=20 we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the attacker = basically can=20 safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without being = detected. If=20 the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, say, 900, = the=20 number of possible replayed packets can be reduced to 10 percent, = 100=20 packets.
 
Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does = place a=20 bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you = could=20 share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove = otherwise. Or,=20 you have some other considerations that could defend the replay=20 attack?
 
cheers
 
Cheng Hong
 


From: Bob O'Hara (boohara)=20 [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2006 5:21=20 AM
To: Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat = Calhoun=20 (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - = Explanation=20 for 802.11i Considerations

Dorothy,
 
The problem with this proposal is that it = is no more=20 effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It = doesn't=20 eliminate any potential attacks.  It doesn't add any=20 functionality.  However, it does add cost and = complexity to=20 the protocol. 

 -Bob
 

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September = 28,=20 2006 1:17 PM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
Cc: Cheng = Hong;=20 Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB); = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - = Explanation=20 for 802.11i Considerations

All,

Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 = Clause 8.5.2,=20 describing the Key RSC field.:

"g)=20 Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive = sequence=20 counter (RSC) for the
GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It = is used in=20 Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake andMessage 1 of the=20 Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11 = replay
state. It may also be used in the = Michael MIC=20 Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value ofthe = frame=20 experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. = The Key=20 RSC field gives
the current message number for the GTK, = to allow=20 a STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the KeyRSC = field value=20 is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set = to 0. The=20 least significant
octet of the TSC or PN should be in the = first=20 octet of the Key RSC field."

The intent of adding this = value=20 in message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of
replayed = frames=20 that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field = gives
the=20 current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify = replayed=20 MPDUs."
Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the = current=20 sequence counter (in most cases
not even close) of the=20 GTK..

Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify = the AC of=20 its current GTK sequence counter, and the
AC would use the most = recently=20 received value in the message 3 sent to new STAs. The RSC = value
would not=20 be  up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not = require=20 an "in-the-critical-path
message exchange between the AC and WTP, = and=20 still be close to the intended use of the = field.

Dorothy

On 9/28/06, Bob=20 O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> = wrote:=20
Please=20 understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area = for
the=20 802.1X authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key = KeyRSC=20 value
of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to = 802.11i or=20 to
802.1X .  It requires us to state this in the = CAPWAP spec,=20 if we want
this behavior to be consistent across all=20 implementations.

The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan = are=20 asking is that either of
three different things are required: =
1:=20 the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it = is
updated, or
2: the AC must request the current value of = the group=20 key TSC for the
KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, = or
3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it = can=20 insert the KeyRSC
value and also calculate the correct MIC, = inserting=20 that into the proper
EAPOL-key frame.

The first item = requires a=20 tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP
communication between = WTP and=20 AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for
every multicast frame = sent by=20 the WTP, if the packet is not
acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP = packets,=20 if it is acknowledged.  This is
a very expensive = addition to=20 the protocol.

The second item requires new protocol = between the AC=20 and WTP during what
can be a time critical portion of the = 802.11=20 transition (handoff, roam)
from one WTP to = another.  It also=20 introduces a race condition that is
not present in the = protocol=20 today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC is
sent from = the WTP to=20 the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
another multicast = frame=20 encrypted with the group key.  This puts the
value of = the=20 sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be =
shortly=20 communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the = AC.
This=20 will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in=20 the
EAPOL-key frame.

The third item requires a new = architecture=20 split that is not required in
our objectives.  The = new split=20 is not splitting the MAC, but splitting
the=20 authenticator.  Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a=20 potential
reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, = since=20 these
devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but = exposed=20 and
more easily compromised than the AC.

The simplest = to=20 implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to
use = the=20 protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value = of
zero in=20 the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. =

-Bob

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent:=20 Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
To: Pat Calhoun = (pacalhou); Bob=20 O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
Peter Nilsson J = (LI/EAB)
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject:=20 RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i = Considerations

Hi=20 Pat and all,

So, based on this, I would say that we have = consensus=20 that setting the
correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP = protocol=20 design.

So far, we have three option/solutions:

1) = As=20 proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the = KeyRSC.

2) As=20 suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP =

3) As=20 suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP=20 and
AC

Among the three, the first option seems the = easiest.=20 However, it
requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this = case AC)=20 that is not
mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify = that=20 (e.g. as proposed
by Bob: "We could include a note to the = effect that=20 the group KeyRSC
should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") = either in=20 CAPWAP or 802.11,
because otherwise there is no = interoperability. For=20 example, AC provided
by another vendor does not have to set = KeyRSC to 0=20 to be compliant with
CAPWAP and 802.11i.

Another = implication is=20 that we don't really understand the impact of
mandating a = static=20 KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent
analysis, I = still have=20 some doubts about the profoundness of the impact.
If the KeyRSC = value=20 is as described of no use, why would it appear in
the EAPOL = frames in=20 the first place? By mandating it to static value,
what have we = lost?=20 Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could
provide us a = better=20 understanding of the issue.

For the last two options, I = think they=20 are both within CAPWAP's scope.
Further analysis could help us = to=20 decide which one  is better (or
someone could propose = other=20 solutions).

cheers

Cheng=20 Hong







> -----Original=20 Message-----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> = Sent:=20 Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Bob = O'Hara=20 (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> Peter Nilsson J = (LI/EAB)
> Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
>=20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>=20 Considerations
>
> Bob's point is 802.11i works this = way=20 today. The AP (or in
> this case AC) can set the RSC to = whatever=20 value it wishes.
> Bob used zero (0) as an example. = Implementations=20 could use
> any other value, which would require some form=20 of
> communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.=20
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
> >=20 -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cheng Hong = [mailto:=20 Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, = September 26,=20 2006 6:03 PM
> > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles = Clancy;=20 Peter Nilsson
> J (LI/EAB)
> > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > = Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> = >=20 Considerations
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> = >
> >=20 If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing = a=20
> > solution (to the problem pointed out by
> > = Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set = the
>=20 > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero.
> >
> = > This=20 is not a defined behavior according to the current
> > = 802.11=20 standard.
> > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should = specifically
> mandate that
> > in our CAPWAP = protocol=20 spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP
> compatible
> = > AC=20 MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still = exists,
>=20 > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you=20 described.
> >
> > Or, are you planning to take = this=20 issue to TGm for 802.11 standard
> > revision? (since = based on=20 your description, there is essentially no
> > use of the=20 KeyRSC).
> >
> > cheers
> >
> = > Cheng=20 Hong
> >
> >
> >
> >
> = >=20 > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob O'Hara = (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
> = > >=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM
> > > To: = T.=20 Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > = > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i =
>=20 > > Considerations
> > >
> > > = Charles,=20 Peter,
> > >
> > > Below is an expansion = of a=20 snippet from a thread on this
> > topic that I
> = > >=20 sent to the list on July 25, 2006.  I think this will be =
> helpful to
> > > understand why the exchange = that=20 Saranavan is requesting is not
> > > = necessary.  In=20 fact, there are several systems from several
> > >=20 manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to
> = CAPWAP=20 that
> > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i = operation=20 using the
> > protocol as
> > > it is = described=20 below.
> > >
> > > BTW, this whole = discussion is=20 about the KeyRSC for the
> > group key, not
> > = >=20 the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and AC=20 both
> know the
> > > initial sequence counter = value for=20 the pairwise key, since it has
> > > never been used = to send a=20 frame.   802.11i requires the
> first = frame
> >=20 > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of=20 1.  See
> > 8.3.2.6=20 c)
> > > and
> > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i = for=20 this requirement.
> > >
> > > The same is = not true=20 of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins
> > > = operation,=20 the AC will not know the value of the sequence
> > = counter for=20
> > > the group key when it needs to complete the=20 EAPOL-key
> > handshake with a
> > > newly = associated=20 STA.
> > > However, as you will see from the tutorial = below,=20 it is not
> > necessary
> > > for the AC and = WTP to=20 exchange any information about the
> group key
> > = >=20 KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended.
> > = >
> > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key = frame is=20 necessary to
> > > calculate the KeyMIC.
> > = >
> > > 2. This value does not need to bear any=20 specific
> > relationship to the
> > > RSC = value=20 maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the
>=20 EAPOL-key
> > > frame for the group key will always=20 work.
> > >
> > > 3. The client STA will = use the=20 value of KeyRSC received in the
> > > EAPOL-key frame = to=20 validate frame using the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > = > 4.=20 The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the = value
> >=20 > received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> > >
> > = > 5.=20 The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the =
>=20 > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to = identify=20 replay
> > > attacks.  Any frame received = with a=20 sequence counter value
> > within the
> > > = replay=20 window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the =
>=20 > MIC is not
> > > valid, the frame is = dropped.
>=20 > >
> > > 6. For any frame that is determined = not to be=20 a replay
> attack frame
> > > and meets all = other=20 validity and authenticity requirements,
> > the = client
>=20 > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the=20 received
> > > frame, if the value is greater than its = current=20 RSC value.
> > Only the
> > > AP can meet = these=20 criteria as the source of a frame
> received by the
> = >=20 > STA.
> > >
> > > 7. Please see item = 6,=20 immediately above, for the reason
> that the AC
> > = >=20 and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC.
> = >=20 >
> > >
> > > The only possible attack = mode is=20 for the attacker to send
> frames to
> > > the = client=20 STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and
> > the = first=20
> > > frame encrypted with the group key.
> = > >=20 During this time, the client will receive the frame and
> = proceed=20 to
> > > validate its MIC.  This is a = potential=20 attack against the STA
> > > = resources.  But, the=20 MIC validation is done in the STA's
> > > 802.11 chip = and=20 consumes no more resources than receiving
> any = other
> >=20 > frame.  Thus, the attack does not actually consume = any STA=20
> > resources
> > > beyond those of = receiving a=20 frame.
> > >
> > > This attack is not = unique to=20 the use of the value zero for
> > the KeyRSC,
> = > >=20 either.  The same attack is available to an attacker at = any=20 other
> > > time, as well.  It is no more = nor less=20 effective at either time.
> > >
> > > For = these=20 reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to
> = > >=20 address the issue raised by Saranavan.
> > >
> = >=20 >  -Bob
> > > -----Original = Message-----
>=20 > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]
> = > >=20 Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM
> > > To: = Peter=20 Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > = > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
> >=20 > Considerations
> > >
> > > This is a = very=20 interesting solution.  The AC selects the
> KeyRSC = and
> > > performs the 4-way handshake.  The = WTP=20 sniffs the 4-way handshake
> > > traffic and grabs the = KeyRSC=20 value and uses it to
> > initialize its own
> > = >=20 counter.
> > >
> > > Pat/Bob: Is this how = the=20 Cisco implementation works?  I
> > have to=20 agree
> > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a = technical=20
> description of how
> > > Cisco implements = it.
>=20 > >
> > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it = would=20 be cleaner to
> > have the AC
> > > generate = the=20 KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message
> > as=20 Behcet
> > > suggests.
> > >
> > = >=20 --
> > > t. charles clancy, = ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
> = www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>= =20 > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J = (LI/EAB)=20 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think Saravanan = has a=20 point. We did a prototype
> > impelementation of
> = >=20 > the
> > > > protocol a year ago when it was = still=20 called LWAPP. The way
> > > we solved
> > = > >=20 this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP = data
> >=20 > messages
> > > > from the AC and when message = 3 of=20 the 4-way handshake or
> > > message 1 of
> > = >=20 > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct=20 RSC
> > > before
> > > > sending it = off to the=20 supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on
> > > all = CAPWAP
>=20 > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in = CAPWAP=20 to
> > > handle these
> > > > two=20 messages.
> > > >
> > > > Peter=20 Nilsson
> > > >
> > > > = -----Original=20 Message-----
> > > > From: Saravanan = Govindan
> >=20 > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg= .panasonic.com]
>=20 > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> > > = >=20 To: Margaret Wasserman
> > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > = > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
>=20 > > Considerations
> > > >
> > > = > Hi=20 Margaret,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you = for=20 reviewing the discussion on this issue.
> > > = >
>=20 > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when = the=20 802.11i
> > > > authenticator element is at the AC = and the=20 802.11i crypto
> > element is
> > > = at
> >=20 > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake = between=20
> > > > authenticator and supplicant.
> > = >=20 >
> > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires = knowing the=20 value of
> > > KeyRSC sequence
> > > > = counter.=20 The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant
> > = > keep=20 track
> > > > of their exchanges. It serves to = protect=20 against threats by
> > > tracking
> > > = >=20 sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
> = >=20 point of
> > > > encryption, i.e. just before = transmission=20 over the
> > wireless channel.
> > > = >
>=20 > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is = between the=20 AC
> > > > (authenticator) and the wireless = station=20 (supplicant).
> > > >
> > > > The = problem=20 arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
> > > = the=20 crypto
> > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at = the=20 WTP. This is a
> > > fairly common
> > > = >=20 design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
> = handshake but=20 it
> > > does
> > > > not know the = value of the=20 KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained
> > > by the = WTP.
>=20 > > >
> > > > Based on this, the current = CAPWAP=20 specification does not
> > allow for a
> > >=20 way
> > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the = correct=20 KeyRSC.
> > > >
> > > > The = functionality I=20 would like to see is a way for the
> > = authenticator
> >=20 > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of = KeyRSC
> >=20 > (maintained by the
> > > > WTP) in its 4-way=20 handshake.
> > > >
> > > > One way = to=20 introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is
> > to have=20 part
> > > of
> > > > the 4-way = handshake be=20 sent from AC to WTP. This will allow
> > > the = 4-way
>=20 > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC=20 before
> > > being sent to
> > > > the = wireless=20 station.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this = helps=20 clarify my view on the issue.
> > > >
> > = >=20 > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > >=20 Saravanan
> > > >
> > > >
> = > >=20 >
> > > >
> > > >
> > = >=20 >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> = > >=20 > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
&= gt;=20 > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM
> = >=20 > > To: Saravanan Govindan
> > > > Cc: Pat = Calhoun=20 (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com
> > = > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for = 802.11i
>=20 > > Considerations
> > > >
> > >=20 >
> > > >
> > > > Hi = again,
> >=20 > >
> > > > Okay, I am even more confused = than I=20 thought I was...
> > > >
> > > > = Saravanan,=20 you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep = 17, 2006,=20 at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> > > = >
> >=20 > >> Pat,
> > > >>
> > > = >>=20 The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done = when
> >=20 > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are=20 at
> > the WTP. This
> > > is
> > = >=20 >> the requirement.
> > > >
> > > = >=20 And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote:
> > > = >
> >=20 > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) = wrote:=20
> > > >> The current specification allows the=20 authenticator to
> > > reside in the
> > > = >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP.=20 This
> > > feature is
> > > >> = already in=20 the specification.
> > > >
> > > > = Pat's=20 message matches my reading of the specification.
> > > = >
> > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are = you=20 asking for
> that is not
> > > > already = supported=20 by the specification?  And why do you
> > think = it=20 is
> > > > necessary?  it will not be = helpful to=20 my understanding to
> > > re-send your
> > = > >=20 proposal or to cite the requirements = document...  Please
>=20 > summarize
> > > > what functionality you think = is=20 missing from the current
> > > specification
> = > >=20 > and why you think that functionality is necessary to
> = support=20 IEEE
> > > > 802.11i or any important use = case.
>=20 > > >
> > > > At some point, the chairs = may need=20 to make a consensus
> > call on this
> > > = >=20 issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure
> = >=20 > that it has
> > > > been clearly communicated = to the=20 WG before we ask the WG to
> > > decide on
> = > >=20 > this issue.
> > > >
> > > > = Thanks,=20
> > > > Margaret
> > > >
> = > >=20 >
> > > >
> > > >
> > = >=20 >
> > > >
> > > >
>=20 _________________________________________________________________ =
>=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription = options,
>=20 please visit:
> > > > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>=20 > > >
>=20 _________________________________________________________________ =
>=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription = options,
>=20 please visit:
> > > > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>=20 > > >
> > >=20 _________________________________________________________________ =
>=20 > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, = please=20 visit:
> > > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>=20 > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>=20 > >=20 = _________________________________________________________________
>= =20 > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, = please=20 visit:
> > > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>=20 > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>=20 > >
> >=20 = _________________________________________________________________
>= =20 > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please = visit:=20
> > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>=20 >
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap=20
> >
>=20 = _________________________________________________________________
>= =20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please = visit:
>=20 http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
>=20 Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>
____________________________________= _____________________________=20
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20 visit:
http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E692.58739154-- --===============0896095452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0896095452==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 05:53:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUgyA-0003Nx-IY for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 05:53:46 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUgy9-0006Xu-34 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 05:53:46 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFB143099B for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 02:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D795430018 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A71E39800F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (mcfeely.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.218]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1307C39800E for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 02:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k939qYOX015900; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 05:52:34 -0400 Received: (from apache@localhost) by mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k939qW7v015898; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 05:52:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mcfeely.cs.umd.edu: apache set sender to clancy@cs.umd.edu using -f Received: from 153.26.176.34 (SquirrelMail authenticated user clancy) by webmail.cs.umd.edu with HTTP; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 05:52:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38379.153.26.176.34.1159869152.squirrel@webmail.cs.umd.edu> In-Reply-To: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC021893C9@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> References: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC021893C9@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 05:52:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Charles Clancy" To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.374 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Bob, >> 1. Set the KeyRSC to a static value. This increases the risk of replay >> attacks of multicast/broadcast packets encrypted with the group key >> between the time the client authenticates and when the first legitimate >> group key-encrypted packet is transmitted. > > Bob>> I don't believe that this increases the risk of replay attack. > The risk of attack is related to the presence of an attacker and the > time between the 4-way handshake and the next multicast frame > transmitted by the AP. As long as the possibility exists that the > KeyRSC does not match the actual TSC, this attack is feasible. > > Bob>> It should be noted that "replay" of encrypted/MICed multicast > frames is inherent in the design of an 802.11 WLAN that has more than > one AP in it. Because the load and availability of transmit > opportunities varies with time, location, and channel, it is likely that > the STA will encounter a situation where it has received one or more > multicast frames from one AP that it will receive again from a second AP > that it has just roamed to. The multicast frames at the second AP have > been delayed due to that AP having fewer opportunities to transmit, > resulting in longer queuing delays for the first transmission of those > multicast frames. I'm trying to distinguish between replay attacks and *useful* replay attacks. Just because something can be replayed doesn't mean it's useful for launching some sort of attack. The probability of a useful replay attack increases with the number of available packets that can be replayed. Setting RSC=0 increases the number of packets available to be replayed. For all practical purposes, we're talking about quite the corner case. Any sensitive, multicast protocol running over the wireless link that would be vulnerable to replay would have it's own security mechanism to prevent such attacks. If such a protocol was attacked, I would personally blame the protocol rather than CAPWAP's handling of the RSC. >> 3. Have the WTP request the GTK prior to initiating the 4-way handshake. > > Bob>> The WTP already has the GTK, if it has any STAs associated. There > is no need for it to request it from the AC. I am not sure what this > would accomplish. Sorry... I mistyped. I meant have the *AC* request the *RSC*. > Bob>> The STA cannot transmit on the GTK, this is not allowed by 802.11. Good. Then that's not a problem. If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement should be added to the security considerations section about the replay possibility in multicast protocols. Overall this is probably sufficient. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. <> tcc@umd.edu <> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 08:07:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUj43-0007d4-Db for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:07:59 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUj3x-0008Tz-WF for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:07:59 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FF13980CB for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 05:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D12243005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 05:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6732E431297 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 05:07:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 12 days 03:19:55 ago Received: from thingmagic.com (unknown [204.9.221.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 987C3431037 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 05:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.5]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1343892; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:07:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: <38379.153.26.176.34.1159869152.squirrel@webmail.cs.umd.edu> References: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC021893C9@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> <38379.153.26.176.34.1159869152.squirrel@webmail.cs.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-Id: <6037C65A-A80D-4BEE-B10B-55427B912F34@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:05:09 -0400 To: Charles Clancy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Hi Charles, > If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement > should be added to the security considerations section about the > replay > possibility in multicast protocols. Overall this is probably > sufficient. This does seem like the simplest approach. So, if there is no objection from our security advisors (you and Scott Kelly), then I'm for it. Margaret _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 09:23:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUkFO-00020G-OV for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 09:23:46 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUkFN-0002w8-BA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 09:23:46 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D86A4313CD for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 06:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BDA4300EF for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 06:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03FD539801C for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 06:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc13.comcast.net (alnrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.225.93]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB00B39802E for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20061003132219b1300l92u2e>; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 13:22:19 +0000 Message-ID: <4522640A.2090108@hyperthought.com> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 06:22:18 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Margaret Wasserman References: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC021893C9@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> <38379.153.26.176.34.1159869152.squirrel@webmail.cs.umd.edu> <6037C65A-A80D-4BEE-B10B-55427B912F34@thingmagic.com> In-Reply-To: <6037C65A-A80D-4BEE-B10B-55427B912F34@thingmagic.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 I agree with Charles - a note in the security considerations is appropriate. Margaret Wasserman wrote: > Hi Charles, > > > >> If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement >> should be added to the security considerations section about the >> replay >> possibility in multicast protocols. Overall this is probably >> sufficient. > > This does seem like the simplest approach. So, if there is no > objection from our security advisors > (you and Scott Kelly), then I'm for it. > > > > Margaret > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 10:24:08 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUlBo-00086w-HJ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:24:08 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUlBm-0006Xf-39 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:24:08 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16CA039809C for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 07:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44AD43005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 07:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CDB398052 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 07:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc13.comcast.net (alnrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.225.93]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58052398035 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 07:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20061003142304b1300l95mie>; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 14:23:04 +0000 Message-ID: <45227247.602@hyperthought.com> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 07:23:03 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Margaret Wasserman References: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC021893C9@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> <38379.153.26.176.34.1159869152.squirrel@webmail.cs.umd.edu> <6037C65A-A80D-4BEE-B10B-55427B912F34@thingmagic.com> <4522640A.2090108@hyperthought.com> In-Reply-To: <4522640A.2090108@hyperthought.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Just re-reading this thread, and I realized I still have a few questions, so I want to get my foot in the door briefly while I run down answers. Just want to make sure to give this an appropriately diligent response - please indulge me. I will aim to resolve my questions today. Scott G Kelly wrote: > I agree with Charles - a note in the security considerations is appropriate. > > Margaret Wasserman wrote: >> Hi Charles, >> >> >> >>> If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement >>> should be added to the security considerations section about the >>> replay >>> possibility in multicast protocols. Overall this is probably >>> sufficient. >> This does seem like the simplest approach. So, if there is no >> objection from our security advisors >> (you and Scott Kelly), then I'm for it. >> >> >> >> Margaret >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 11:46:06 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUmT8-0005Es-Te for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:46:06 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUmT5-0001Ue-Rg for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:46:06 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7800D4315F3 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D0643005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6980C431603 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.184]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3DA4315FD for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so195175nfb for ; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.26.18 with SMTP id d18mr983853nfj; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610030839x367c7a77o7e8d69055d47bbd8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:39:33 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "Michael Montemurro" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 85/ wasRe: Issue with state machine X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1054719950==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4cbeb0f20efb229aa93fae1468d20275 --===============1054719950== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8737_7541798.1159889973337" ------=_Part_8737_7541798.1159889973337 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All, Issue 85 was closed in -02 and then re-opened to address the following comment: I just noticed that the latest specification's state machine requires that in order to perform a firmware download, the state must transition from the join to configure to image data. This is a departure from the original protocol, and I believe introduces some challenges. One of the benefits of bypassing the configure state is that it maximizes interoperability across version numbers. If we require the configure state to be run, then we need to ensure that the configure message does not introduce any new message elements that can create a backward compatiblity issue. However, the way the protocol used to be only required that the Join state have to deal with backward compatibility. I'd like to see this changed back to the old way. Sorry I missed this in my reviews. The -02 specification has state transitions from Join to Configure to Image data, with corresponding text descriptions. This is unchanged from the -01 specification. The -00 specification had a transition from DTLS-Complete to Configure and to Image Data. The current text description includes: Join to Configure (g): This state transition is used by the WTP and the AC to exchange configuration information. WTP: The WTP enters the Configure state when it successfully completes the Join operation. If it determines that its version number and the version number advertised by the AC are the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current configuration. The WTP also starts the ResponseTimeout timer (see ). (Section 4.5) If the version numbers are not the same, the WTP will immediately transition to Image Data state (see transition (i)). and for the AC: AC: This state transition occurs immediately after the AC transmits the Join Response message to the WTP. If the AC receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message elements to override the WTP's configuration. If the AC instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition (i)). In the current specification, if the WTP received a Discovery Response message from the AC, it has the AC descriptor data, including the AC Hardware and Software version numbers, and does not need to exchange configuration messages to obtain AC HW & SW version info. If the WTP does not execute the Discovery exchange, then it will need to obtain the data. Proposed Resolution: Insert the following text at the end of 6.2 "Join Response", so that in all cases, the Configuration messages are not sent: "The following message element MUST be included in the Join Response message: - AC Descriptor, see Section 4.4.1" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Related observation 1: The current text states that " If it [WTP] determines that its version number and the version number advertised by the AC are the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current configuration." This can't be correct - multiple vendors will have different version numbering schemes. Proposed change: from If it determines that its version number and the version number advertised by the AC are the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current configuration. to If it determines that its version number and the version number advertised by the AC are compatible, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current configuration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Related observation 2: The current specification provides a means for the WTP to initiate the move to Image Data from the Configure State, but does not provide the AC with a similar capability. The current text expects that the WTP has knowledge of all of the AC versions that it can interoperate with. How the WTP would make this determination is of course out of scope. It is also likely that the AC would have similar knowledge, in one central location. Proposed Change: Insert the following sentence as indicated: AC: This state transition occurs immediately after the AC transmits the Join Response message to the WTP. If the AC receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message elements to override the WTP's configuration. If the AC instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition (i)). If the AC determines that a new firmware image should be installed on the WTP, the AC initiates a firmware download by sending an Image Data Request Message with an Initiate Download message element to the WTP. Comments welcome, Thanks, Dorothy On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro wrote: > > Pat, > > I re-openned issue 85 to deal with this issue. > > Cheers, > > Mike > > > On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > > I just noticed that the latest specification's state machine requires > > that in order to perform a firmware download, the state must transition from > > the join to configure to image data. This is a departure from the original > > protocol, and I believe introduces some challenges. One of the benefits of > > bypassing the configure state is that it maximizes interoperability across > > version numbers. If we require the configure state to be run, then we need > > to ensure that the configure message does not introduce any new message > > elements that can create a backward compatiblity issue. However, the way the > > protocol used to be only required that the Join state have to deal with > > backward compatibility. > > > > I'd like to see this changed back to the old way. Sorry I missed this in > > my reviews. > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > ------=_Part_8737_7541798.1159889973337 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All,

Issue 85 was closed in -02 and then re-opened to address the following comment:

I just noticed that the latest specification's state machine requires that in order to perform a firmware download, the state must transition from the join to configure to image data. This is a departure from the original protocol, and I believe introduces some challenges. One of the benefits of bypassing the configure state is that it maximizes interoperability across version numbers. If we require the configure state to be run, then we need to ensure that the configure message does not introduce any new message elements that can create a backward compatiblity issue. However, the way the protocol used to be only required that the Join state have to deal with backward compatibility.
 
I'd like to see this changed back to the old way. Sorry I missed this in my reviews.

The -02 specification has state transitions from Join to Configure to Image data, with corresponding text descriptions.
This is unchanged from the -01  specification. The -00 specification had a transition from
DTLS-Complete to Configure and to Image Data.

The current text description includes:

   Join to Configure (g): This state transition is used by the WTP and
      the AC to exchange configuration information.

      WTP: The WTP enters the Configure state when it successfully
         completes the Join operation.  If it determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration.  The WTP also starts the ResponseTimeout timer
         (see ).  (Section 4.5) If the version numbers are not the same,
         the WTP will immediately transition to Image Data state (see
         transition (i)).

and for the AC:

      AC: This state transition occurs immediately after the AC
         transmits the Join Response message to the WTP.  If the AC
         receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC
         must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see
         Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message
         elements to override the WTP's configuration.  If the AC
         instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it
         immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition
         (i)).

In the current specification, if the WTP received a Discovery Response
message from the AC, it has the AC descriptor data, including the
AC Hardware and Software version numbers, and does not need
to exchange configuration messages to obtain AC HW & SW version info.

If the WTP does not execute the Discovery exchange, then it will
need to obtain the data.

Proposed Resolution:  Insert the following text at the end of 6.2 "Join Response",
so that in all cases, the Configuration messages are not sent:

"The following message element MUST be included in the Join Response message:

- AC Descriptor, see Section 4.4.1"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related observation 1: The current text states that
" If it [WTP] determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration."

This can't be correct - multiple vendors will have different version numbering
schemes.

Proposed change:

from

If it determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         the same, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration.

to

If it determines that its
         version number and the version number advertised by the AC are
         compatible, the WTP transmits the Configuration Status message
         (see Section 8.2) to the AC with a snapshot of its current
         configuration.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related observation 2: The current specification provides a means for the WTP to
initiate the move to Image Data from the Configure State, but does not
provide the AC with a similar capability. The current text expects that
the WTP has knowledge of all of the AC versions that it can interoperate with.
How the WTP would make this determination is of course out of scope.
It is also likely that the AC would have similar knowledge, in one central
location.

Proposed Change:

Insert the following sentence as indicated:

      AC: This state transition occurs immediately after the AC
         transmits the Join Response message to the WTP.  If the AC
         receives the Configuration Status message from the WTP, the AC
         must transmit a Configuration Status Response message(see
         Section 8.3) to the WTP, and may include specific message
         elements to override the WTP's configuration.  If the AC
         instead receives the Image Data Request from the WTP, it
         immediately transitions to the Image Data state (see transition
         (i)). If the AC determines that a new firmware image should be
         installed on the WTP, the AC initiates a firmware download by sending an Image Data Request
         Message with an Initiate Download message element to the WTP.

Comments welcome,

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com > wrote:
Pat,
 
I re-openned issue 85 to deal with this issue.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike

 
On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) < pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
I just noticed that the latest specification's state machine requires that in order to perform a firmware download, the state must transition from the join to configure to image data. This is a departure from the original protocol, and I believe introduces some challenges. One of the benefits of bypassing the configure state is that it maximizes interoperability across version numbers. If we require the configure state to be run, then we need to ensure that the configure message does not introduce any new message elements that can create a backward compatiblity issue. However, the way the protocol used to be only required that the Join state have to deal with backward compatibility.
 
I'd like to see this changed back to the old way. Sorry I missed this in my reviews.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 

_________________________________________________________________
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------=_Part_8737_7541798.1159889973337-- --===============1054719950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1054719950==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 11:56:37 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUmdJ-0003MO-HY for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:56:37 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUmdI-0003Va-3X for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:56:37 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8924315F3 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5C743005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3024316EE for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056CB4316E2 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Oct 2006 08:54:05 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,251,1157353200"; d="scan'208"; a="344346756:sNHT46985812" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k93Fs419031513; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:54:04 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k93Fs3ql005500; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:54:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:54:02 -0700 Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC021DD5A1@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: Acbm0a2ehp4qLeSgQUyP74tngh7/+gAMlwQw From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: "Charles Clancy" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2006 15:54:03.0783 (UTC) FILETIME=[26769970:01C6E704] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3.cisco.com; header.From=boohara@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Charles said: If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement should be added to the security considerations section about the replay possibility in multicast protocols. Overall this is probably sufficient. Bob>> I agree. -Bob _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From mackenzii@dale-carnegie.com Tue Oct 03 17:39:08 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUrym-0006ya-8y for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 17:39:08 -0400 Received: from 122.84-90-202.mana.pf ([202.90.84.122] helo=dale-carnegie.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUryi-0006hy-Jf for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 17:39:08 -0400 Message-ID: <01c6e734$59c00570$61555aca@hypersup8c4f80> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:39:05 -1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Hajar Arevalo" From: "Hajar Arevalo" To: Subject: Re: Hi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_27267_01C6E6E0.88166670" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_27267_01C6E6E0.88166670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, AMBvlEN ClAvLIS VlAvGRA VALvlUM Economize 60% http://www.tholionmdesunkas.com =20 _____ =20 Blow it out your rocket tubes. 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we talk, make decisions. About the future. We have a leader-I dare = not
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------=_NextPart_000_27267_01C6E6E0.88166670-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 18:36:02 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUsrq-0005jh-2d for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 18:36:02 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUsiT-0004ip-AI for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 18:26:24 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3531448033 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB6643005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 075DC144802F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6181448036 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so293875nfb for ; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 15:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.41.12 with SMTP id t12mr1480076nfj; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 15:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610031509j5cd0408bhd83476d0e9d1ce1b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:09:55 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" In-Reply-To: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC02188E2C@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC02188E2C@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: * Cc: Saravanan Govindan , Cheng Hong , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1120761865==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8f8f86533ca78e8189563dd2b8fa61af --===============1120761865== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17205_4739635.1159913395002" ------=_Part_17205_4739635.1159913395002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bob, all, Comments inline. Thanks, Dorothy On 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote: > > > Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does not > add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity. A repla= yed > frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate frame > detection mechanisms. See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame > sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and section > 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions. And PLEASE > read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is > necessary. > In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP includes the frame sequence control field =96 and the sequence number, bits 4-15 of the frame equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AAD; s= o that only the fragment number is protected. The TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequence number of the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP MIC is MSDU based. In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text indicates that a STA may omit broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate detection cache; if bc/mc data is not included, then normal duplicate frame detection will not apply. As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC. This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or not. This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the STA. So, the attack, if it can eve= n be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other frame. The MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in hardware in the chipset for CCMP. However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typically performed in the driver, in software. If a STA does not have the proper RSC value, there is a "window of vulnerability" before it receives the correct value, during which the STA can receive and process replayed bc/mc frames. The magnitude of the DOS aspect of this depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impact or sw/tkip-some small impact. The larger issue is that the replay protection mechanism guarrantees provided by 802.11i are lost. > -Bob > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:34 PM > *To:* Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley > *Cc:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)= ; > capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan Govindan > *Subject:* RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > Hi Bob, > > As Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value > closer to the current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-define= d > value zero. > > It is true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC valu= e > to be used, since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly > synchronize the RSC using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we = are > just disabling the tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a > designed function. > > As for the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 > would pose a greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently > 1000, and we are mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the attacker > basically can safely replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without bein= g > detected. If the KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, > say, 900, the number of possible replayed packets can be reduced to 10 > percent, 100 packets. > > Therefore, I would say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does place a > bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you coul= d > share with us some other implementation/testing data to prove otherwise. = Or, > you have some other considerations that could defend the replay attack? > > cheers > > Cheng Hong > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 AM > *To:* Dorothy Stanley > *Cc:* Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsso= n > J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com > *Subject:* RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > Dorothy, > > The problem with this proposal is that it is no more effective than > sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC. It doesn't eliminate any potenti= al > attacks. It doesn't add any functionality. However, it does add cost an= d > complexity to the protocol. > > -Bob > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:17 PM > *To:* Bob O'Hara (boohara) > *Cc:* Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsso= n > J (LI/EAB); capwap@frascone.com > *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > All, > > Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5.2, describing the Key > RSC field.: > > "g) Key RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive > sequence counter (RSC) for the > GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in Message 3 of the 4-Way > Handshake and > Message 1 of the Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the > IEEE 802.11 replay > state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC Failure Report frame, to > report the TSC field value of > the frame experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other > messages. The Key RSC field gives > the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify > replayed MPDUs. If the Key > RSC field value is less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets > shall be set to 0. The least significant > octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet of the Key RSC field.= " > > The intent of adding this value in message 3 was to immediately minimize > the number of > replayed frames that a STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field > gives > the current message number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify > replayed MPDUs." > Setting the value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence > counter (in most cases > not even close) of the GTK.. > > Perhaps the WTP could periodically/frequently notify the AC of its curren= t > GTK sequence counter, and the > AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sent to ne= w > STAs. The RSC value > would not be up to date at all times, but would be closer than "0", not > require an "in-the-critical-path > message exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the > intended use of the field. > > Dorothy > > On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote: > > > > Please understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for > > the 802.1X authenticator. Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC value > > of zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to > > 802.1X . It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we want > > this behavior to be consistent across all implementations. > > > > The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are asking is that either of > > three different things are required: > > 1: the WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it i= s > > updated, or > > 2: the AC must request the current value of the group key TSC for the > > KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or > > 3: the AC must send the KCK to the AC so that it can insert the KeyRSC > > value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into the prope= r > > EAPOL-key frame. > > > > The first item requires a tremendous amount of additional CAPWAP > > communication between WTP and AC, at least one new CAPWAP packet for > > every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if the packet is not > > acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is acknowledged. This i= s > > a very expensive addition to the protocol. > > > > The second item requires new protocol between the AC and WTP during wha= t > > can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transition (handoff, roam) > > from one WTP to another. It also introduces a race condition that is > > not present in the protocol today. Once the value for the KeyRSC is > > sent from the WTP to the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send > > another multicast frame encrypted with the group key. This puts the > > value of the sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be > > shortly communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC. > > This will behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the > > EAPOL-key frame. > > > > The third item requires a new architecture split that is not required i= n > > > > our objectives. The new split is not splitting the MAC, but splitting > > the authenticator. Placing the KCK in the WTP is also a potential > > reduction in the security of the overall WLAN system, since these > > devices are normally not in a secured wiring closet, but exposed and > > more easily compromised than the AC. > > > > The simplest to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is t= o > > use the protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of > > zero in the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame. > > > > -Bob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; > > Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > > > Hi Pat and all, > > > > So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that setting the > > correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol design. > > > > So far, we have three option/solutions: > > > > 1) As proposed by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC. > > > > 2) As suggested by Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP > > > > 3) As suggested by Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and > > AC > > > > Among the three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it > > requires a mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not > > mandated by 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as propose= d > > by Bob: "We could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC > > should be zero in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11, > > because otherwise there is no interoperability. For example, AC provide= d > > by another vendor does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with > > CAPWAP and 802.11i. > > > > Another implication is that we don't really understand the impact of > > mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an excellent > > analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness of the impact= . > > If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would it appear in > > the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to static value, > > what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.11 could > > provide us a better understanding of the issue. > > > > For the last two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope. > > Further analysis could help us to decide which one is better (or > > someone could propose other solutions). > > > > cheers > > > > Cheng Hong > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM > > > To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; > > > Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > Considerations > > > > > > Bob's point is 802.11i works this way today. The AP (or in > > > this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value it wishes. > > > Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could use > > > any other value, which would require some form of > > > communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet. > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Cheng Hong [mailto: Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:03 PM > > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson > > > J (LI/EAB) > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > > > > > If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a > > > > solution (to the problem pointed out by > > > > Saravanan) by mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the > > > > KeyRSC in the 4-way handshake to zero. > > > > > > > > This is not a defined behavior according to the current > > > > 802.11 standard. > > > > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically > > > mandate that > > > > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something like "a CAPWAP > > > compatible > > > > AC MUST set KeyRSC to zero"? Otherwise, the problem still exists, > > > > since not all AC implementation have to follow what you described. > > > > > > > > Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard > > > > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially no > > > > use of the KeyRSC). > > > > > > > > cheers > > > > > > > > Cheng Hong > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@cisco.com] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM > > > > > To: T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > > > Charles, Peter, > > > > > > > > > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a thread on this > > > > topic that I > > > > > sent to the list on July 25, 2006. I think this will be > > > helpful to > > > > > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not > > > > > necessary. In fact, there are several systems from several > > > > > manufacturers in the field using precursor protocols to > > > CAPWAP that > > > > > are Wi-Fi certified for WPA2/802.11i operation using the > > > > protocol as > > > > > it is described below. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, this whole discussion is about the KeyRSC for the > > > > group key, not > > > > > the pairwise key. This is so because the WTP and AC both > > > know the > > > > > initial sequence counter value for the pairwise key, since it has > > > > > never been used to send a frame. 802.11i requires the > > > first frame > > > > > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of 1. See > > > > 8.3.2.6 c) > > > > > and > > > > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for this requirement. > > > > > > > > > > The same is not true of the group key, i.e., after the WTP begins > > > > > operation, the AC will not know the value of the sequence > > > > counter for > > > > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key > > > > handshake with a > > > > > newly associated STA. > > > > > However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not > > > > necessary > > > > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any information about the > > > group key > > > > > KeyRSC for the protocol to operate as it is intended. > > > > > > > > > > 1. A value for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to > > > > > calculate the KeyMIC. > > > > > > > > > > 2. This value does not need to bear any specific > > > > relationship to the > > > > > RSC value maintained by the WTP. A value of zero in the > > > EAPOL-key > > > > > frame for the group key will always work. > > > > > > > > > > 3. The client STA will use the value of KeyRSC received in the > > > > > EAPOL-key frame to validate frame using the KeyMIC. > > > > > > > > > > 4. The client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value > > > > > received in KeyRSC, say, zero. > > > > > > > > > > 5. The value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the > > > > > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify replay > > > > > attacks. Any frame received with a sequence counter value > > > > within the > > > > > replay window will be checked to have a valid MIC. If the > > > > MIC is not > > > > > valid, the frame is dropped. > > > > > > > > > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a replay > > > attack frame > > > > > and meets all other validity and authenticity requirements, > > > > the client > > > > > STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received > > > > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value. > > > > Only the > > > > > AP can meet these criteria as the source of a frame > > > received by the > > > > > STA. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the reason > > > that the AC > > > > > and WTP do not need to coordinate and exchange the RSC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacker to send > > > frames to > > > > > the client STA between the time of the EAPOL-key frame and > > > > the first > > > > > frame encrypted with the group key. > > > > > During this time, the client will receive the frame and > > > proceed to > > > > > validate its MIC. This is a potential attack against the STA > > > > > resources. But, the MIC validation is done in the STA's > > > > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than receiving > > > any other > > > > > frame. Thus, the attack does not actually consume any STA > > > > resources > > > > > beyond those of receiving a frame. > > > > > > > > > > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for > > > > the KeyRSC, > > > > > either. The same attack is available to an attacker at any other > > > > > time, as well. It is no more nor less effective at either time. > > > > > > > > > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in need of any changes to > > > > > address the issue raised by Saranavan. > > > > > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: T. Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > > > > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM > > > > > To: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) > > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > > > This is a very interesting solution. The AC selects the > > > KeyRSC and > > > > > performs the 4-way handshake. The WTP sniffs the 4-way handshake > > > > > traffic and grabs the KeyRSC value and uses it to > > > > initialize its own > > > > > counter. > > > > > > > > > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the Cisco implementation works? I > > > > have to agree > > > > > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical > > > description of how > > > > > Cisco implements it. > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to > > > > have the AC > > > > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the AddMobile message > > > > as Behcet > > > > > suggests. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | > > > www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think Saravanan has a point. We did a prototype > > > > impelementation of > > > > > the > > > > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called LWAPP. The way > > > > > we solved > > > > > > this issue then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data > > > > > messages > > > > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way handshake or > > > > > message 1 of > > > > > > the groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RS= C > > > > > before > > > > > > sending it off to the supplicant. To avoid the sniffing on > > > > > all CAPWAP > > > > > > data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to > > > > > handle these > > > > > > two messages. > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Nilsson > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Saravanan Govindan > > > > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > > > > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03 > > > > > > To: Margaret Wasserman > > > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Margaret, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for reviewing the discussion on this issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the 802.11i > > > > > > authenticator element is at the AC and the 802.11i crypto > > > > element is > > > > > at > > > > > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between > > > > > > authenticator and supplicant. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing the value of > > > > > KeyRSC sequence > > > > > > counter. The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant > > > > > keep track > > > > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect against threats by > > > > > tracking > > > > > > sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the > > > > point of > > > > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission over the > > > > wireless channel. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC > > > > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station (supplicant). > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and > > > > > the crypto > > > > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the WTP. This is a > > > > > fairly common > > > > > > design. Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way > > > handshake but it > > > > > does > > > > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC. The KeyRSC is maintained > > > > > by the WTP. > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specification does not > > > > allow for a > > > > > way > > > > > > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC. > > > > > > > > > > > > The functionality I would like to see is a way for the > > > > authenticator > > > > > > (AC) to use the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC > > > > > (maintained by the > > > > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake. > > > > > > > > > > > > One way to introduce this functionality in to CAPWAP is > > > > to have part > > > > > of > > > > > > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow > > > > > the 4-way > > > > > > handshake to use the correct value of the KeyRSC before > > > > > being sent to > > > > > > the wireless station. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope this helps clarify my view on the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > > Saravanan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM > > > > > > To: Saravanan Govindan > > > > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > > > > Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi again, > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I thought I was... > > > > > > > > > > > > Saravanan, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Pat, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when > > > > > >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at > > > > the WTP. This > > > > > is > > > > > >> the requirement. > > > > > > > > > > > > And, in response, Pat Calhoun wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > > > > >> The current specification allows the authenticator to > > > > > reside in the > > > > > >> AC, while the data packet crypto elements in the WTP. This > > > > > feature is > > > > > >> already in the specification. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality are you asking for > > > that is not > > > > > > already supported by the specification? And why do you > > > > think it is > > > > > > necessary? it will not be helpful to my understanding to > > > > > re-send your > > > > > > proposal or to cite the requirements document... Please > > > > summarize > > > > > > what functionality you think is missing from the current > > > > > specification > > > > > > and why you think that functionality is necessary to > > > support IEEE > > > > > > 802.11i or any important use case. > > > > > > > > > > > > At some point, the chairs may need to make a consensus > > > > call on this > > > > > > issue, and I'd like to understand your view and make sure > > > > > that it has > > > > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before we ask the WG to > > > > > decide on > > > > > > this issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > > > please visit: > > > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > > > please visit: > > > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > ------=_Part_17205_4739635.1159913395002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bob, all,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:
 
Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack=20 mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and= =20 complexity.  A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the= =20 normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.  See section=20 8.3.3= .3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequence number is part of the=20 additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for th= e=20 description of these functions.  And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i be= fore=20 again asserting that this proposal is necessary.
<= /blockquote>

In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP&= nbsp; includes the frame=20 sequence control field =96 and the sequence number,
bits 4-15 of the frame equence control field - is masked to 0=20 in the AAD; so that only the fragment number is protected.

The TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequence number of  the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP MIC
is MSDU based.

In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text= indicates=20 that a STA may omit
broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate=20 detection cache; if bc/mc data is not included, then normal
duplicate frame detection will not=20 apply.

 As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of us= ing zero=20 as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) = will=20 have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.&nbs= p;=20 This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame = or=20 not.  This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and= does=20 not consume any additional resources of the STA.  So, the attack, if i= t can=20 even be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA = than=20 sending it any other frame.

The MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically= performed in hardware in the chipset for CCMP.
However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typically performed=20 in the driver, in software.

If a STA does not have the proper RSC value, there i= s a "window of vulnerability" before it receives
the correct value, during
which the STA can receive and process replayed  bc/mc frames. The magn= itude of the DOS aspect of this
depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impact or= sw/tkip-some small impact.
The larger issue is that the replay protection mechanism guarrantees provid= ed by 802.11i are lost.

 -Bob
 

 


From: Cheng Hong= =20 [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panaso= nic.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 28,=20 2006 5:34 PM

To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); Dorothy Stanley
Cc:=20 Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20 capwap@frascone.com; Saravanan G= ovindan
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43=20 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

<= div>
Hi=20 Bob,
=  
As=20 Dorothy correctly pointed out below, setting the KeyRSC to a value closer t= o the=20 current RSC would be better than setting it to a pre-defined value zero.=20
=  
It is=20 true that 802.11i and 802.1X do not specify what is the KeyRSC value to be = used,=20 since they are trying to provide us a tool to correctly synchronize the RSC= =20 using the Msg 3. By mandating the KeyRSC to zero, we are just disabling the= =20 tool. It is not wrong, but just deprives the system a designed=20 function.
=  
As for=20 the effectiveness of KeyRSC, setting it to a predefined value of 0 would po= se a=20 greater threat. In a simple example, if the RSC is currently 1000, and we a= re=20 mandating the KeyRSC to be always zero, the attacker basically can saf= ely=20 replay the last 1000 packets to the STA without being detected. If the= =20 KeyRSC can be set to a closer value of the current RSC, say, 900, the numbe= r of=20 possible replayed packets can be reduced to 10 percent, 100 packets.= =20
=  
Therefore, I w= ould say, setting the KeyRSC value to zero does place a=20 bigger threat. Is that how the cisco products implemented? Maybe you could = share=20 with us some other implementation/testing data to prove otherwise. Or, you = have=20 some other considerations that could defend the replay=20 attack?
=  
cheers<= /span>
=  
Cheng=20 Hong
=  


From: Bob O'Hara (boohara)=20 [mailto:boohara@cisco.com]
<= b>Sent:
Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21=20 AM
To: Dorothy Stanley
Cc: Cheng Hong; Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou); T. Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB);=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subj= ect: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for=20 802.11i Considerations

Dorothy,
 
The problem with this proposal is that it is no more=20 effective than sending a value of zero for the KeyRSC.  It does= n't=20 eliminate any potential attacks.  It doesn't add any=20 functionality.  However, it does add cost and complexity t= o the=20 protocol. 

 -Bob
 

 

All,

Below is the text from 802.11REV-maD8.0 Clause 8.5= .2,=20 describing the Key RSC field.:

"g) Key=20 RSC. This field is 8 octets in length. It contains the receive sequence= =20 counter (RSC) for the
GTK being installed in IEEE 802.11. It is used in= =20 Message 3 of the 4-Way Handshake and
Message 1 of the=20 Group Key Handshake, where it is used to synchronize the IEEE 802.11=20 replay
state. It may also be used in the Michael MIC=20 Failure Report frame, to report the TSC field value of
the frame=20 experiencing a MIC failure. It shall contain 0 in other messages. The Key= RSC=20 field gives
the current message number for the GTK, to allow a=20 STA to identify replayed MPDUs. If the Key
RSC field value is=20 less than 8 octets in length, the remaining octets shall be set to 0. The= =20 least significant
octet of the TSC or PN should be in the first octet=20 of the Key RSC field."

The intent of adding this value= in=20 message 3 was to immediately minimize the number of
replayed frames t= hat a=20 STA would potentially process: "The Key RSC field gives
the curre= nt message=20 number for the GTK, to allow a STA to identify replayed MPDUs."
S= etting the=20 value to 0 in Msg 3 does not provide the current sequence counter (in mos= t=20 cases
not even close) of the GTK..

Perhaps the WTP could=20 periodically/frequently notify the AC of its current GTK sequence counter= , and=20 the
AC would use the most recently received value in the message 3 sen= t to=20 new STAs. The RSC value
would not be  up to date at all times, bu= t=20 would be closer than "0", not require an "in-the-critical-= path
message=20 exchange between the AC and WTP, and still be close to the intended use o= f the=20 field.

Dorothy

On 9/28/06, Bob O'Hara=20 (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com<= /a>>=20 wrote:=20
Please=20 understand that 802.11i specifies no behavior in this area for
the 8= 02.1X=20 authenticator.  Our choice to send a group key KeyRSC valueof=20 zero in the EAPOL-key frame requires no change to 802.11i or to
802.= 1X=20 .  It requires us to state this in the CAPWAP spec, if we=20 want
this behavior to be consistent across all=20 implementations.

The problem with what Bechet and Saranavan are= =20 asking is that either of
three different things are required:
1:= the=20 WTP must communicate the group key TSC to the AC every time it=20 is
updated, or
2: the AC must request the current value of the gr= oup=20 key TSC for the
KeyRSC before constructing the EAPOL-key frame, or3:=20 the AC must send the KCK to the AC so  that it can insert the= =20 KeyRSC
value and also calculate the correct MIC, inserting that into= the=20 proper
EAPOL-key frame.

The first item requires a tremendous= =20 amount of additional CAPWAP
communication between WTP and AC, at le= ast=20 one new CAPWAP packet for
every multicast frame sent by the WTP, if = the=20 packet is not
acknowledged, or two new CAPWAP packets, if it is=20 acknowledged.  This is
a very expensive addition to the=20 protocol.

The second item requires new protocol between the AC = and=20 WTP during what
can be a time critical portion of the 802.11 transit= ion=20 (handoff, roam)
from one WTP to another.  It also introduc= es a=20 race condition that is
not present in the protocol=20 today.  Once the value for the KeyRSC is
sent from the WTP= to=20 the AC, it is possible that the WTP can send
another multicast frame= =20 encrypted with the group key.  This puts the
value of the= =20 sequence counter out of sync with the value that will be
shortly=20 communicated to the client in the EAPOL-key frame from the AC.
This = will=20 behave exactly the same as if a value of zero is sent in the
EAPOL-k= ey=20 frame.

The third item requires a new architecture split that is = not=20 required in
our objectives.  The new split is not splitti= ng=20 the MAC, but splitting
the authenticator.  Placing the KCK= in=20 the WTP is also a potential
reduction in the security of the overall= WLAN=20 system, since these
devices are normally not in a secured wiring clo= set,=20 but exposed and
more easily compromised than the AC.

The sim= plest=20 to implement, least expensive, and most secure option is to
use the= =20 protocol as it is now specified and have the AC send a value of
zero= in=20 the KeyRSC field of the EAPOL-key frame.

-Bob

-----Origi= nal=20 Message-----
From: Cheng Hong [mailto:
Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent:=20 Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:50 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Bo= b=20 O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
Cc= : capwap@frascone.com
Subject= : RE:=20 [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

Hi Pa= t and=20 all,

So, based on this, I would say that we have consensus that= =20 setting the
correct KeyRSC is an issue for the CAPWAP protocol=20 design.

So far, we have three option/solutions:

1) As pro= posed=20 by Bob: Using a static value (0) for the KeyRSC.

2) As suggested= by=20 Behcet: AC communicate a correct KeyRSC to WTP

3) As suggested = by=20 Saravanana: Some exchange mechanism between WTP and
AC

Among = the=20 three, the first option seems the easiest. However, it
requires a=20 mandated Authenticator behavior(in this case AC) that is not
mandat= ed by=20 802.11. Therefore, we have to specify that (e.g. as proposed
by Bob:= "We=20 could include a note to the effect that the group KeyRSC
should be z= ero=20 in the EAPOL-key frame.") either in CAPWAP or 802.11,
because o= therwise=20 there is no interoperability. For example, AC provided
by another ve= ndor=20 does not have to set KeyRSC to 0 to be compliant with
CAPWAP and=20 802.11i.

Another implication is that we don't really understand = the=20 impact of
mandating a static KeyRSC value. Although Bob provided an= =20 excellent
analysis, I still have some doubts about the profoundness = of=20 the impact.
If the KeyRSC value is as described of no use, why would= it=20 appear in
the EAPOL frames in the first place? By mandating it to st= atic=20 value,
what have we lost? Maybe some liaison letter to 802.1 or 802.= 11=20 could
provide us a better understanding of the issue.

For the= last=20 two options, I think they are both within CAPWAP's scope.
Further= =20 analysis could help us to decide which one  is better=20 (or
someone could propose other solutions).

cheers

Che= ng=20 Hong







> -----Original Message-----
= >=20 From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto: pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> Sent:=20 Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:39 AM
> To: Cheng Hong; Bob O'Hara= =20 (boohara); T. Charles Clancy;
> Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> = Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
>= =20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
>=20 Considerations
>
> Bob's point is 802.11i works this way to= day.=20 The AP (or in
> this case AC) can set the RSC to whatever value = it=20 wishes.
> Bob used zero (0) as an example. Implementations could= =20 use
> any other value, which would require some form of
>= =20 communication to the WTP, as suggested by Behcet.
>
> Pat= =20 Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco=20 Systems
>
>
>
> > -----Original=20 Message-----
> > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:=20 Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September = 26,=20 2006 6:03 PM
> > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); T. Charles Clancy; = Peter=20 Nilsson
> J (LI/EAB)
> > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> >=20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> >= =20 Considerations
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> &= gt;=20 If I understand your description below correct, you are proposing a >=20 > solution (to the problem pointed out by
> > Saravanan) by= =20 mandating the behavior of the AC to always set the
> > KeyRSC = in=20 the 4-way handshake to zero.
> >
> > This is not a de= fined=20 behavior according to the current
> > 802.11 standard.
>= ;=20 > Are you suggesting that we CAPWAP WG should specifically
>= =20 mandate that
> > in our CAPWAP protocol spec, e.g. something l= ike=20 "a CAPWAP
> compatible
> > AC MUST set KeyRSC to ze= ro"?=20 Otherwise, the problem still exists,
> > since not all AC=20 implementation have to follow what you described.
> >
> = >=20 Or, are you planning to take this issue to TGm for 802.11 standard
&= gt;=20 > revision? (since based on your description, there is essentially= =20 no
> > use of the KeyRSC).
> >
> > cheers>=20 >
> > Cheng Hong
> >
> >
> >>=20 >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > Fro= m:=20 Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:booha= ra@cisco.com]
> > >=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:32 AM
> > > To: T.= =20 Charles Clancy; Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > >= =20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > = >=20 Considerations
> > >
> > > Charles, Peter,
&= gt;=20 > >
> > > Below is an expansion of a snippet from a t= hread=20 on this
> > topic that I
> > > sent to the list on= July=20 25, 2006.  I think this will be
> helpful to
> &= gt;=20 > understand why the exchange that Saranavan is requesting is not>=20 > > necessary.  In fact, there are several systems from= =20 several
> > > manufacturers in the field using precursor=20 protocols to
> CAPWAP that
> > > are Wi-Fi certified= for=20 WPA2/802.11i operation using the
> > protocol as
> > = >=20 it is described below.
> > >
> > > BTW, this wh= ole=20 discussion is about the KeyRSC for the
> > group key, not
= >=20 > > the pairwise key.  This is so because the WTP and A= C=20 both
> know the
> > > initial sequence counter value = for=20 the pairwise key, since it has
> > > never been used to sen= d a=20 frame.   802.11i requires the
> first frame
> >= ;=20 > sent on a key to use the sequence counter value of=20 1.  See
> > 8.3.2.6= =20 c)
> > > and
> > > 8.3.3.4.3 c) in 802.11i for = this=20 requirement.
> > >
> > > The same is not true o= f the=20 group key, i.e., after the WTP begins
> > > operation, the = AC=20 will not know the value of the sequence
> > counter for
&g= t;=20 > > the group key when it needs to complete the EAPOL-key
>= >=20 handshake with a
> > > newly associated STA.
> > &= gt;=20 However, as you will see from the tutorial below, it is not
> >= ;=20 necessary
> > > for the AC and WTP to exchange any informat= ion=20 about the
> group key
> > > KeyRSC for the protocol t= o=20 operate as it is intended.
> > >
> > > 1. A val= ue=20 for the KeyRSC in the EAPOL-key frame is necessary to
> > >= ;=20 calculate the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > > 2. This value= does=20 not need to bear any specific
> > relationship to the
> = >=20 > RSC value maintained by the WTP.  A value of zero in the= =20
> EAPOL-key
> > > frame for the group key will alway= s=20 work.
> > >
> > > 3. The client STA will use th= e=20 value of KeyRSC received in the
> > > EAPOL-key frame to=20 validate frame using the KeyMIC.
> > >
> > > 4= . The=20 client STA will also set its group key RSC to the value
> > &g= t;=20 received in KeyRSC, say, zero.
> > >
> > > 5. T= he=20 value in the client STA's RSC will be compared against the
> >= ;=20 > sequence number in subsequent received frames to identify=20 replay
> > > attacks.  Any frame received with a= =20 sequence counter value
> > within the
> > > replay= =20 window will be checked to have a valid MIC.  If the
> = >=20 MIC is not
> > > valid, the frame is dropped.
> >= =20 >
> > > 6. For any frame that is determined not to be a= =20 replay
> attack frame
> > > and meets all other valid= ity=20 and authenticity requirements,
> > the client
> > &g= t;=20 STA updates its RSC value to the sequence number in the received
>= ;=20 > > frame, if the value is greater than its current RSC value.>=20 > Only the
> > > AP can meet these criteria as the sourc= e of=20 a frame
> received by the
> > > STA.
> >=20 >
> > > 7. Please see item 6, immediately above, for the= =20 reason
> that the AC
> > > and WTP do not need to=20 coordinate and exchange the RSC.
> > >
> >=20 >
> > > The only possible attack mode is for the attacke= r to=20 send
> frames to
> > > the client STA between the tim= e of=20 the EAPOL-key frame and
> > the first
> > > frame= =20 encrypted with the group key.
> > > During this time, the c= lient=20 will receive the frame and
> proceed to
> > > validat= e its=20 MIC.  This is a potential attack against the STA
> >= ;=20 > resources.  But, the MIC validation is done in the=20 STA's
> > > 802.11 chip and consumes no more resources than= =20 receiving
> any other
> > > frame.  Thus, t= he=20 attack does not actually consume any STA
> > resources
>= ;=20 > > beyond those of receiving a frame.
> > >
> = >=20 > This attack is not unique to the use of the value zero for
>= >=20 the KeyRSC,
> > > either.  The same attack is=20 available to an attacker at any other
> > > time, as=20 well.  It is no more nor less effective at either time.
&g= t;=20 > >
> > > For these reasons, the protocol is not in n= eed=20 of any changes to
> > > address the issue raised by Saranav= an.=20
> > >
> > >  -Bob
> > >= =20 -----Original Message-----
> > > From: T. Charles Clancy=20 [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]>=20 > > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:37 AM
> > > = To:=20 Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)
> > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > >=20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> > &= gt;=20 Considerations
> > >
> > > This is a very=20 interesting solution.  The AC selects the
> KeyRSC=20 and
> > > performs the 4-way handshake.  The WTP= =20 sniffs the 4-way handshake
> > > traffic and grabs the KeyR= SC=20 value and uses it to
> > initialize its own
> > >= =20 counter.
> > >
> > > Pat/Bob: Is this how the C= isco=20 implementation works?  I
> > have to agree
> &= gt;=20 > with Saravanan that I've yet to see a technical
> descripti= on of=20 how
> > > Cisco implements it.
> > >
> &g= t;=20 > IMHO, this is somewhat hackish, and it would be cleaner to
>= >=20 have the AC
> > > generate the KeyRSC and include it in the= =20 AddMobile message
> > as Behcet
> > >=20 suggests.
> > >
> > > --
> > > t.= =20 charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |
> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
> >=20 >
> > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)=20 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think Saravanan has a= =20 point. We did a prototype
> > impelementation of
> >= >=20 the
> > > > protocol a year ago when it was still called= =20 LWAPP. The way
> > > we solved
> > > > this = issue=20 then was to let the WTP sniff on all CAPWAP data
> > > mess= ages=20
> > > > from the AC and when message 3 of the 4-way=20 handshake or
> > > message 1 of
> > > > the= =20 groupkey handshake was sent the WTP inserted the correct RSC
> &g= t;=20 > before
> > > > sending it off to the supplicant. T= o=20 avoid the sniffing on
> > > all CAPWAP
> > > &g= t;=20 data messages we would need a mechanism with in CAPWAP to
> > = >=20 handle these
> > > > two messages.
> > >=20 >
> > > > Peter Nilsson
> > > >
>= ;=20 > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From:= =20 Saravanan Govindan
> > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]
&g= t;=20 > > > Sent: den 22 september 2006 11:03
> > > >= To:=20 Margaret Wasserman
> > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com
> > >=20 > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> &= gt;=20 > Considerations
> > > >
> > > > Hi=20 Margaret,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for= =20 reviewing the discussion on this issue.
> > > >
> = >=20 > > The issue here is the working of IEEE 802.11i when the=20 802.11i
> > > > authenticator element is at the AC and t= he=20 802.11i crypto
> > element is
> > > at
> >= ;=20 > > the WTP. Particularly, it is for the 4-way handshake between= =20
> > > > authenticator and supplicant.
> > >= =20 >
> > > > Now, the 4-way handshake requires knowing t= he=20 value of
> > > KeyRSC sequence
> > > > count= er.=20 The KeyRSC helps both authenticator and supplicant
> > > k= eep=20 track
> > > > of their exchanges. It serves to protect= =20 against threats by
> > > tracking
> > > >=20 sequential frames. The KeyRSC is maintained at the at the
> > = point=20 of
> > > > encryption, i.e. just before transmission ove= r=20 the
> > wireless channel.
> > > >
> > = >=20 > In the case of CAPWAP, the 4-way handshake is between the AC
&= gt;=20 > > > (authenticator) and the wireless station=20 (supplicant).
> > > >
> > > > The problem= =20 arises, when the authenticator is at the AC and
> > > the= =20 crypto
> > > > element (together with KeyRSC) is at the = WTP.=20 This is a
> > > fairly common
> > > > desig= n.=20 Now in this case, the AC starts the 4-way
> handshake but it
&= gt;=20 > > does
> > > > not know the value of the KeyRSC.= The=20 KeyRSC is maintained
> > > by the WTP.
> > >= =20 >
> > > > Based on this, the current CAPWAP specifica= tion=20 does not
> > allow for a
> > > way
> > &g= t;=20 > to conduct the 4-way handshake with the correct KeyRSC.
> &= gt;=20 > >
> > > > The functionality I would like to see = is a=20 way for the
> > authenticator
> > > > (AC) to u= se=20 the correct prevailing value of KeyRSC
> > > (maintained by= the=20
> > > > WTP) in its 4-way handshake.
> > >= =20 >
> > > > One way to introduce this functionality in = to=20 CAPWAP is
> > to have part
> > > of
> > &= gt;=20 > the 4-way handshake be sent from AC to WTP. This will allow
&g= t;=20 > > the 4-way
> > > > handshake to use the correct= =20 value of the KeyRSC before
> > > being sent to
> >= >=20 > the wireless station.
> > > >
> > > >= ; I=20 hope this helps clarify my view on the issue.
> > >=20 >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> >= >=20 > Saravanan
> > > >
> > > >
> &g= t;=20 > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > &= gt;=20 >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >= ;=20 > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
>=20 > > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:26 PM
> >= >=20 > To: Saravanan Govindan
> > > > Cc: Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com<= /a>
> > >=20 > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i
> &= gt;=20 > Considerations
> > > >
> > > >
&g= t;=20 > > >
> > > > Hi again,
> > >=20 >
> > > > Okay, I am even more confused than I though= t I=20 was...
> > > >
> > > > Saravanan, you=20 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 17, 2006, a= t=20 10:24 PM, Saravanan Govindan wrote:
> > > >
> >= >=20 >> Pat,
> > > >>
> > > >> Th= e=20 issue here is about how 802.11i exchanges are done when
> > &g= t;=20 >> authenticator is at the AC and crypto elements are at
> = >=20 the WTP. This
> > > is
> > > >> the=20 requirement.
> > > >
> > > > And, in resp= onse,=20 Pat Calhoun wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sep= 18,=20 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> > > >= >=20 The current specification allows the authenticator to
> > >= =20 reside in the
> > > >> AC, while the data packet cryp= to=20 elements in the WTP. This
> > > feature is
> > &g= t;=20 >> already in the specification.
> > > >
> &= gt;=20 > > Pat's message matches my reading of the specification.
>= ;=20 > > >
> > > > So, Saravanan, what functionality= are=20 you asking for
> that is not
> > > > already supp= orted=20 by the specification?  And why do you
> > think it= =20 is
> > > > necessary?  it will not be helpful = to my=20 understanding to
> > > re-send your
> > > >= =20 proposal or to cite the requirements document...  Please
&= gt;=20 > summarize
> > > > what functionality you think is= =20 missing from the current
> > > specification
> > &= gt;=20 > and why you think that functionality is necessary to
> supp= ort=20 IEEE
> > > > 802.11i or any important use case.
> = >=20 > >
> > > > At some point, the chairs may need to = make=20 a consensus
> > call on this
> > > > issue, and= I'd=20 like to understand your view and make sure
> > > that it= =20 has
> > > > been clearly communicated to the WG before w= e ask=20 the WG to
> > > decide on
> > > > this=20 issue.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> &= gt;=20 > > Margaret
> > > >
> > > >
>= ;=20 > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> &g= t;=20 > >
> > > >
>=20 _________________________________________________________________
&= gt;=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
&= gt;=20 please visit:
> > > >
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capw= ap=20
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipe= rmail/capwap
>=20 > > >
>=20 _________________________________________________________________
&= gt;=20 > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
&= gt;=20 please visit:
> > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capw= ap=20
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipe= rmail/capwap
>=20 > > >
> > >=20 _________________________________________________________________
&= gt;=20 > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20 visit:
> > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
&g= t;=20 > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
&g= t;=20 > >=20 _________________________________________________________________
&g= t;=20 > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please vi= sit:=20
> > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>=20 > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>= ;=20 > >
> >=20 _________________________________________________________________
&g= t;=20 > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:= =20
> > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>=20 >
> > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
> >
>=20 _________________________________________________________________
&g= t; To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> = http://lists.= frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
>=20 Archives: http:/= /lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
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------=_Part_17205_4739635.1159913395002-- --===============1120761865== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1120761865==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 18:41:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUswl-0000KI-98 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 18:41:07 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUswg-0000Sc-EM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 18:41:07 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09F2431DBA for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD0D43005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C2E1448033 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2421448032 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so298121nfb for ; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 15:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.8.1 with SMTP id l1mr1543690nfi; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 15:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610031528q55c3a59fu8cd8359610d81258@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:28:13 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: capwap MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: * Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 143: Specification for the usage of CERTS for CAPWAP/was CERT issues in CAPWAP-01 X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1833388578==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5655aae64318292c42757ebeb53e54ce --===============1833388578== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17429_13988300.1159914493225" ------=_Part_17429_13988300.1159914493225 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All, Proposed resolutions for the several components of Issue 143 are included below. Issue 143 is also copied below. Comments please. Thanks, Dorothy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky", due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately. I't not sure that the recommendations support this scenario. In general, want to support: 0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP) 1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured 2) continued use of WTP after long time operation 3) continued use in short term deployments (such as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from town to town (setting up and tearing down for for each move), or for the WiFi network used at conferences (such as the IETF). Proposed resolution: Adopt Charles' Clancy's recommendation to Replace the following text: Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to ensure the certificate has not yet expired. If devices have a real- time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates. If no real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD attempt to determine the current time using NTP prior to certificate validation. If neither is available, devices SHOULD verify that the start validity date of its peer's certificate is less than its own certificate's expiration date, and its peer's expiration date is greater than its own start date. Note that failure to check a certificate's temporal validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore devices should make every effort to perform this validation. with Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to ensure the certificate has not yet expired. If devices have a real-time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates. If no real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD make a best-effort attempt to validate the certificate validity dates through other means. Failure to check a certificate's temporal validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore devices should make every effort to perform this validation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) The new text suggests the common name in the format "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies that "DOMAIN.NET " is the "administrative domain". To me, "administrative domain" implies the user of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT. (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for "@DOMAIN.NET " added to the common name, and suggest that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also, what is the min depth that a WTP should support?) Proposed Resolution: Adopt David's suggestion to drop the @DOMAIN.NET and add a sentence describing the storage requirements on the WTP and AC: Change from: Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a certificate to a particular device. There are many ways to accomplish this. CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX, followed by an @ symbol, and then an administrative domain. For example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET. During authentication, devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC matches the MAC specified in the CAPWAP header, and that the domain in both the AC and WTP certificates match. to Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a certificate to a particular device. There are many ways to accomplish this. CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX, for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab. During authentication, devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC address matches the MAC address specified in the CAPWAP header. If this mechanism is used, the ACs SHOULD maintain list of all authorized WTP MAC addresses and the WTP SHOULD save the AC credential or credential identifier. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned, and MUST have a common name of the ASCII of the MAC address (or other unique ID, such as serial number) Proposed resolution: No change to the text regarding use of self-signed certs. While the use of self-signed certs may not be widespread, there isn't a compelling need to preclude their use in a CAPWAP application. Change the text to require that WTP certs MUST have a common mane of the ASCII of the MAC address: from: CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX, for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab. to Specificaiton of the certificate common name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX, for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab is REQUIRED for use with the CAPWAP protocol. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) The Join Request must be updated to include the common name as a message element Proposed resolution: No change to the text. The join request currenly includes the BSSID. Also, since the JOIN occurs inside the DTLS tunnel, it is implicitly bound to the MAC (assuming certs were used for authentication, and this is N/A for preshared key authentication). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) specify that WTPs must continue even when it believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside the time window Proposed resolution: No change to the document. That seems equivalent to mandating WTPs never validate timestamps on any AC certs. What if the WTP has a real-time clock and actually CAN distinguish between good and bad certs? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . 6) Tthe CAPWAP protocol must have a new message to install an updated CERT for the WTP. Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP; the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, generation etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message to install a CA CERT. Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP; the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, management. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Issue 143: 1) Cipher Suites for CERTS CAPWAP-01 has the following cipher suites specified: TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA, TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA The above is a mistake, and the following should be used: TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA, TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA 2) CERT usage type: CAPWAP-01 has the folllwing about CERTS: 2.4.4.3 . Certificate Usage Validation of the certificates by the AC and WTP is required so that only an AC may perform the functions of an AC and that only a WTP may perform the functions of a WTP. This restriction of functions to the AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST be distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP. To accomplish this differentiation, the x.509v3 certificates MUST include the Extensions field [11] and MUST include the NetscapeComment [15] extension. For an AC, the value of the NetscapeComment extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP AC Device Certificate". For a WTP, the value of the NetscapeComment extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP WTP Device Certificate". Part of the CAPWAP certificate validation process includes ensuring that the proper string is included in the NetscapeComment extension, and only allowing the CAPWAP session to be established if the extension does not represent the same role as the device validating the certificate. For instance, a WTP MUST NOT accept a certificate whose NetscapeComment field is set to "CAPWAP WTP Device Certificate". Using the "NetscapeComment extension" is not appropriate. 3) Selfsigned CERTs, CA CERTs, and validity checking I didn't see anything about whether or not the CERTs were selfsigned. And if not selfsigned, who would sign them. Also, how would a limited resource WTP verify an AC's cert? What if the WTP had no realtime clock (or a realtime clock with an unknown certainty)? 4) Common Name in a WTP's CERT I believe that the common name on the WTP's CERT must be the WTP's ID (which would be either the serial number or "base MAC address"), and should be provided as a parameter on the join. Two small, but important issues are: 1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky", due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately. I't not sure that the recommendations support this scenario. In general, want to support: 0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP) 1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured 2) continued use of WTP after long time operation 3) continued use in short term deployments (such as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from town to town (setting up and tearing down for for each move), or for the WiFi network used at conferences (such as the IETF). 2) The new text suggests the common name in the format "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies that "DOMAIN.NET " is the "administrative domain". To me, "administrative domain" implies the user of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT. (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for "@DOMAIN.NET " added to the common name, and suggest that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also, what is the min depth that a WTP should support?) So, it appears to me that the following changes are required to CAPWAP-01: 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned, and MUST have a common name of the ASCII of the MAC address (or other unique ID, such as serial number) 2) The Join Request must be updated to include the common name as a message element 3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside the time window 4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message to install an updated CERT for the WTP. 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message to install a CA CERT. On 6/15/06, Michael Montemurro wrote: > > All, > > I've created issue 143 to deal with this problemm. > > > On 6/15/06, Scott G Kelly wrote: > > > > Hi David, > > > > Like I said previously, I agree with pretty much everything Charles > > said, so I won't re-iterate his points, and will instead simply add a > > few comments below: > > > > David T. Perkins wrote: > > > HI, > > > > > > Thank you for responding to my issues. It seems to me that > > > we are not yet looking at the same problem. So let me try > > > again. > > > > > > What I was trying to point out is that there are a few > > > VERY common scenarios (use cases) where the clock on > > > a WTP can be totally wrong. If a WTP is coded so that > > > it will not continue and communicate with an AC when > > > it thinks the AC's CERTs are outside the time window, > > > (or it thinks that it's on CERTs are outside the time > > > window) then you will have a useless device (a brick). > > > In many (maybe most) deployments, it costs more to > > > physically touch a WTP than the equipment cost of the WTP. > > > At the Dallas IETF, there were APs that were "somewhere" > > > in the ceiling not doing any useful work, but sending > > > out beacons with their config'ed SSID because it was > > > too expensive to find them, and take them down. It > > > was more cost effective to just new new APs. > > > > > > For an AC, it's clock must be accurate, > > > and it would be OK for it to not proceed if it believes > > > its CERTs are outside their time window. But, the > > > CAPWAP protocol should allow an AC to establish > > > a session with a WTP that has a WACKY clock (and > > > even a CERT that has expired). NOTE: the AC clock > > > must be pretty accurate for management (such as > > > logs) to be useful (or work). The CAPWAP protocol has > > > support to set the WTP's clock. But it doesn't have support > > > to update a CERT in a WTP. It seems like this is > > > needed. > > > > > > Assume the clocks are OK, now lets talk about WTP > > > CERT validation by the AC. This wasn't addressed, but > > > I believe that WTP CERTs MUST be signed by the > > > WTP manufacturer, or one of the WELL KNOWN certification > > > authorities. Adding the CA CERTs in an AC is done through > > > means outside of CAPWAP (such as via the CLI > > > on the AC). Thus, WTP CERTs MUST NOT be selfsigned. > > > And, I believe that the WTPs CERTs should have > > > for the common name the ASCII of MAC address, > > > or other unique ID of the WTP (and this must be provided > > > in the Join Request message). I didn't understand > > > in the previous text, nor in your message below > > > why the common name would have a suffix of > > > "@DOMAIN.NET". > > > > > > Now lets talk about AC CERT validation by the WTP. > > > The CERT for the AC can be created by the AC > > > manufacturer, the user, or 3rd party. It could > > > be selfsigned, or have a chain from the manufacturer > > > or a WELL KNOWN CA. Given this, it will be difficult > > > for a WTP to verify a AC CERT, at least the first > > > time. This is just a "leap of faith" if the CERT > > > cannot be verified. After this first connection, > > > the AC through the CAPWAP protocol could configure > > > the WTP with the needed CA CERT(s). However, there > > > may be some WTPs that have no additional persistent > > > storage for these CERTs. > > > > > > So, it appears to me that the following changes > > > are required to CAPWAP-01: > > > 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned, > > > and MUST have a common name of the ASCII > > > of the MAC address (or other unique ID, > > > such as serial number) > > > > While we may not think self-signing is a good idea for our typical > > deployment models, I'm not sure we have to say you MUST NOT do this, but > > I'll give this some more thought. > > > > > 2) The Join Request must be updated to include > > > the common name as a message element > > > > What is your objective with this requirement? > > > > > 3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it > > > believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside > > > the time window > > > > Charles addressed this. > > > > > 4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message > > > to install an updated CERT for the WTP. > > > 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message > > > to install a CA CERT. > > > > I agree that we should discuss this, but I'm a little leary of taking on > > > > the task of fully specifying every nuance of cert use and mgmt. > > Remember, the ipsec group spun out a whole new wg to handle this > > particular problem. It's complicated. > > > > What we're trying to do in the base protocol is come up with minimal and > > > > sufficient guidelines to get people going. I think cert mgmt and usage > > could be revisited in detail later, perhaps under a new charter, but > > that we might want to consciously avoid getting too bogged down in this > > for rev 1. > > > > Scott > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > ------=_Part_17429_13988300.1159914493225 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All,

Proposed resolutions for the several components of Issue 143 are included below.
Issue 143 is also copied below.

Comments please.

Thanks,

Dorothy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky",
  due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery
  going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other
  hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately.
  I't not sure that the recommendations support this
  scenario. In general, want to support:
    0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)
    1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured
    2) continued use of WTP after long time operation
    3) continued use in short term deployments (such
        as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from
        town to town (setting up and tearing down for
        for each move), or for the WiFi network used
        at conferences (such as the IETF).

Proposed resolution: Adopt Charles' Clancy's recommendation to
Replace the following text:

 Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to
   ensure the certificate has not yet expired.  If devices have a real-
   time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates.  If no
   real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD attempt to determine
   the current time using NTP prior to certificate validation.  If
   neither is available, devices SHOULD verify that the start validity
   date of its peer's certificate is less than its own certificate's
   expiration date, and its peer's expiration date is greater than its
   own start date.  Note that failure to check a certificate's temporal
   validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks
   launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore
   devices should make every effort to perform this validation.


with


Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to
   ensure the certificate has not yet expired.  If devices have a
   real-time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates.
   If no real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD make a
   best-effort attempt to validate the certificate validity dates
   through other means.  Failure to check a certificate's temporal
   validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks
   launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore
   devices should make every effort to perform this validation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) The new text suggests the common name in the format
  "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies
  that "DOMAIN.NET" is the "administrative domain".
  To me, "administrative domain" implies the user
  of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer
  must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP
  should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user
  of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT.
  (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be
  valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for
   "@DOMAIN.NET" added to the common name, and suggest
  that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have
  now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to
  replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be
  to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also,
  what is the min depth that a WTP should support?)

Proposed Resolution:
Adopt David's suggestion to drop the @DOMAIN.NET and
add a sentence describing the storage requirements on the WTP and AC:

Change from:

  Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a
   certificate to a particular device.  There are many ways to
   accomplish this.  CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   followed by an @ symbol, and then an administrative domain.  For
   example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET.  During authentication,
   devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC matches the MAC specified in the
   CAPWAP header, and that the domain in both the AC and WTP
   certificates match.

to
  Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a
   certificate to a particular device.  There are many ways to
   accomplish this.  CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab.  During authentication,
   devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC address matches the MAC
   address  specified in the CAPWAP header. If this mechanism is used, the ACs SHOULD
   maintain list of all authorized WTP MAC addresses and the WTP SHOULD
   save the AC credential or credential identifier.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
    and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
    of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
    such as serial number)

Proposed resolution:
No change to the text regarding use of self-signed certs. While the use
of self-signed certs may not
be widespread,  there isn't a compelling need to preclude their
use in a CAPWAP application.

Change the text to require that WTP certs MUST have a
common mane of the ASCII of the MAC address:

from:
CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab.

to

Specificaiton of the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab is REQUIRED for use with the CAPWAP protocol.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  4)  The Join Request must be updated to include
    the common name as a message element

Proposed resolution: No change to the text. The join request
currenly includes the BSSID. Also, since the JOIN occurs inside the DTLS tunnel, it is
 implicitly bound to the MAC (assuming certs were used for authentication, and
this is N/A for preshared key authentication).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  5) specify that WTPs must continue even when it
    believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
    the time window

Proposed resolution: No change to the document.
That seems equivalent to mandating WTPs never validate timestamps on any
AC certs.  What if the WTP has a real-time clock and actually CAN
distinguish between good and bad certs?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
 6) Tthe CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
      to install an updated CERT for the WTP.

Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP;
the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are
quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, generation etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 7) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
      to install a CA CERT.

Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP;
the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are
quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, management.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue 143:


1) Cipher Suites for CERTS
CAPWAP-01 has the following cipher suites specified:
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

The above is a mistake, and the following should be used:

TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,
TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and
TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

2) CERT usage type:
CAPWAP-01 has the folllwing about CERTS:
2.4.4.3
. Certificate Usage

Validation of the certificates by the AC and WTP is required so that
only an AC may perform the functions of an AC and that only a WTP may
perform the functions of a WTP. This restriction of functions to the

AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST be
distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP. To accomplish
this differentiation, the x.509v3 certificates MUST include the
Extensions field [11] and MUST include the NetscapeComment [15]

extension.

For an AC, the value of the NetscapeComment extension MUST be the
string "CAPWAP AC Device Certificate". For a WTP, the value of the
NetscapeComment extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP WTP Device

Certificate".

Part of the CAPWAP certificate validation process includes ensuring
that the proper string is included in the NetscapeComment extension,
and only allowing the CAPWAP session to be established if the

extension does not represent the same role as the device validating
the certificate. For instance, a WTP MUST NOT accept a certificate
whose NetscapeComment field is set to "CAPWAP WTP Device
Certificate".


Using the "NetscapeComment extension" is not appropriate.

3) Selfsigned CERTs, CA CERTs, and validity checking
I didn't see anything about whether or not the CERTs
were selfsigned. And if not selfsigned, who would sign them.

Also, how would a limited resource WTP verify an AC's cert?
What if the WTP had no realtime clock (or a realtime clock
with an unknown certainty)?

4) Common Name in a WTP's CERT
I believe that the common name on the WTP's CERT

must be the WTP's ID (which would be either the serial
number or "base MAC address"), and should be provided
as a parameter on the join.

Two small, but important issues are:
1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky",
  due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery
  going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other
  hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately.
  I't not sure that the recommendations support this
  scenario. In general, want to support:
    0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)
    1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured
    2) continued use of WTP after long time operation
    3) continued use in short term deployments (such
        as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from
        town to town (setting up and tearing down for
        for each move), or for the WiFi network used
        at conferences (such as the IETF).
2) The new text suggests the common name in the format
  "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies
  that "DOMAIN.NET" is the "administrative domain".
  To me, "administrative domain" implies the user
  of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer
  must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP
  should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user
  of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT.
  (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be
  valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for
   "@DOMAIN.NET" added to the common name, and suggest
  that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have
  now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to
  replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be
  to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also,
  what is the min depth that a WTP should support?)

So, it appears to me that the following changes
are required to CAPWAP-01:
 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
    and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
    of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
    such as serial number)
 2) The Join Request must be updated to include
    the common name as a message element
 3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it
    believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
    the time window
 4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
    to install an updated CERT for the WTP.
 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
    to install a CA CERT.

On 6/15/06, Michael Montemurro < montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
All,
 
I've created issue 143 to deal with this problemm.

 
On 6/15/06, Scott G Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com > wrote:
Hi David,

Like I said previously, I agree with pretty much everything Charles
said, so I won't re-iterate his points, and will instead simply add a
few comments below:

David T. Perkins wrote:
> HI,
>
> Thank you for responding to my issues. It seems to me that
> we are not yet looking at the same problem. So let me try
> again.
>
> What I was trying to point out is that there are a few
> VERY common scenarios (use cases) where the clock on
> a WTP can be totally wrong. If a WTP is coded so that
> it will not continue and communicate with an AC when
> it thinks the AC's CERTs are outside the time window,
> (or it thinks that it's on CERTs are outside the time
> window) then you will have a useless device (a brick).
> In many (maybe most) deployments, it costs more to
> physically touch a WTP than the equipment cost of the WTP.
> At the Dallas IETF, there were APs that were "somewhere"
> in the ceiling not doing any useful work, but sending
> out beacons with their config'ed SSID because it was
> too expensive to find them, and take them down. It
> was more cost effective to just new new APs.
>
> For an AC, it's clock must be accurate,
> and it would be OK for it to not proceed if it believes
> its CERTs are outside their time window. But, the
> CAPWAP protocol should allow an AC to establish
> a session with a WTP that has a WACKY clock (and
> even a CERT that has expired). NOTE: the AC clock
> must be pretty accurate for management (such as
> logs) to be useful (or work). The CAPWAP protocol has
> support to set the WTP's clock. But it doesn't have support
> to update a CERT in a WTP. It seems like this is
> needed.
>
> Assume the clocks are OK, now lets talk about WTP
> CERT validation by the AC. This wasn't addressed, but
> I believe that WTP CERTs MUST be signed by the
> WTP manufacturer, or one of the WELL KNOWN certification
> authorities. Adding the CA CERTs in an AC is done through
> means outside of CAPWAP (such as via the CLI
> on the AC). Thus, WTP CERTs MUST NOT be selfsigned.
> And, I believe that the WTPs CERTs should have
> for the common name the ASCII of MAC address,
> or other unique ID of the WTP (and this must be provided
> in the Join Request message). I didn't understand
> in the previous text, nor in your message below
> why the common name would have a suffix of
> "@DOMAIN.NET".
>
> Now lets talk about AC CERT validation by the WTP.
> The CERT for the AC can be created by the AC
> manufacturer, the user, or 3rd party. It could
> be selfsigned, or have a chain from the manufacturer
> or a WELL KNOWN CA. Given this, it will be difficult
> for a WTP to verify a AC CERT, at least the first
> time. This is just a "leap of faith" if the CERT
> cannot be verified. After this first connection,
> the AC through the CAPWAP protocol could configure
> the WTP with the needed CA CERT(s). However, there
> may be some WTPs that have no additional persistent
> storage for these CERTs.
>
> So, it appears to me that the following changes
> are required to CAPWAP-01:
>   1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
>      and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
>      of the MAC address (or other unique ID,
>      such as serial number)

While we may not think self-signing is a good idea for our typical
deployment models, I'm not sure we have to say you MUST NOT do this, but
I'll give this some more thought.

>   2) The Join Request must be updated to include
>      the common name as a message element

What is your objective with this requirement?

>   3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it
>      believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
>      the time window

Charles addressed this.

>   4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
>      to install an updated CERT for the WTP.
>   5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
>      to install a CA CERT.

I agree that we should discuss this, but I'm a little leary of taking on
the task of fully specifying every nuance of cert use and mgmt.
Remember, the ipsec group spun out a whole new wg to handle this
particular problem. It's complicated.

What we're trying to do in the base protocol is come up with minimal and
sufficient guidelines to get people going. I think cert mgmt and usage
could be revisited in detail later, perhaps under a new charter, but
that we might want to consciously avoid getting too bogged down in this
for rev 1.

Scott

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(helo=customer-65.xertix.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUuPS-0003nx-2y for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:14:52 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c6e74a$2305b2d0$415a39c8@operador4> From: "each every" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Zen Plus adds Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 18:15:02 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C6E717.D869BC30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bd8a74b81c71f965ca7918b90d1c49c0 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C6E717.D869BC30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C6E717.D869BC30" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C6E717.D869BC30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Policy copy The Console luxury cables Worlds Best 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3enwxBRXbPHFGGes8cYcd+zxxyCHLPLIJJds8sksmYHyyiy37PLL+9oC82qvmOpFTTWTm7PO 5u48rs/iAh2u0DMXbfTRSCet0BhKN430CU57pUDUVL9GQNVYZy2UM1p37fXXAsYANlVomFt2 uWeTm/a4aKzNnD9jxw1bMZaeUhTd5eJNrt714/ItbjF+81mN3IQXbvjhiCf+rxvlMi4tBBI5 /i0LBEk+ruXiYq745px37vnnoH+KZOikl2766ainjtweqrfu+utNIQH77LTXbvvtuOeu++68 QxZG78AHL/zwxBdvfL6WHK/8P+os7/zz0Ecv/fTUV2/99dhnr/323HePoT7eUyhm+OSXb/75 I42D/vrst+/++/DHL//89Ndv//3459+jrfr37///AAygAAdIwAIakCbfOKACF8jABrbFACdx mwMnSMEKWvCCGMygBjfIwQ4CC24eDKEIR0jCEprwhMT5RblUuEIUuvCFMIyhWAIgwxra8Iac CQgAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C6E717.D869BC30-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 21:44:25 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUvo9-0003tY-50 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:44:25 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUvo7-0002GU-K0 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:44:25 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027E039803B for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 18:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CAE43005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 18:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD151448009 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 18:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533AF1448024 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 18:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id k941h6L7017987; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 10:43:06 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id k941h7x11432; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 10:43:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/indians) with ESMTP id k941h5500632; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 10:43:05 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:42:03 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD01365C7D@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: Acbm5GWvbPQ30Bi0Rreg76ey9cp8aAAb98TQ From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Charles Clancy" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Dear all, We have been dragged into the discussion of the virtue of KeyRSC value (which should have been done in IEEE802.1 & 11i - a liaison to ask those experts why the KeyRSC is incorporated into their protocol in the first place), and the real problem about the CAPWAP protocol design has been put aside. So, is the conclusion now about demanding all CAPWAP compliant AC to always set KeyRSC to zero? (This is about the interoperability of the CAPWAP devices.) Is this the consensus of the WG? Will the disclaimer clearly state that by setting KeyRSC to zero the replay mechanism provided by 802.11i will be turned off and possible replay possibility has been increased? cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 8:05 PM > To: Charles Clancy > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > > Hi Charles, > > > > > If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer > statement > > should be added to the security considerations section about the > > replay possibility in multicast protocols. Overall this is > probably > > sufficient. > > This does seem like the simplest approach. So, if there is > no objection from our security advisors (you and Scott > Kelly), then I'm for it. > > > > Margaret > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 03 22:31:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUwY8-0000bL-0s for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 22:31:56 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GUwY6-0007Zs-AO for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 22:31:56 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D98F398043 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 19:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05DD143005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 19:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42821448024 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 19:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7321448020 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Oct 2006 19:31:13 -0700 Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (india-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.129.221]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k942VCm0014506 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 19:31:13 -0700 Received: from xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-412.cisco.com [64.104.140.149]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k942VAlJ018592 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 02:31:10 GMT Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:01:10 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:01:08 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01DED66A@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: discovery interval timer question Thread-Index: AcbnXSYmgj+5hOtMSUqeJWF2tPB/VQ== From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2006 02:31:10.0451 (UTC) FILETIME=[27553C30:01C6E75D] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0061205736==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21be852dc93f0971708678c18d38c096 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0061205736== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6E75D.2757FD08" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E75D.2757FD08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, =20 Idle to Discovery transition talks about Discovery Interval timer: =20 Idle to Discovery (a): This transition occurs once device initialization is complete. =20 WTP: The WTP enters the Discovery state prior to transmitting the first Discovery Request message (see Section 5.1). Upon entering this state, the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval timer (see Section 4.5). The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount counter to zero (0) (see Section 4.6). The WTP also clears all information from ACs it may have received during a previous Discovery phase. =20 But DiscoveryInterval timer is described as: =20 4.5.1. DiscoveryInterval =20 The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP MUST wait after receiving a Discovery Response, before initiating a DTLS handshake. =20 Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on MaxDiscoveryInterval timer? Also, there is mention of DiscoveryInterval timer even in transition from Discovery to Discovery. =20 4.5.6. MaxDiscoveryInterval =20 The maximum time allowed between sending discovery requests from the interface, in seconds. Must be no less than 2 seconds and no greater than 180 seconds. =20 Default: 20 seconds. =20 Thanks Smitha ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E75D.2757FD08 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,
 
Idle to = Discovery=20 transition talks about Discovery Interval timer:
 
 Idle to=20 Discovery (a): This transition occurs once=20 device
      initialization is=20 complete.
 
      WTP: The WTP = enters the=20 Discovery state prior to transmitting=20 the
         first Discovery = Request=20 message (see Section 5.1). =20 Upon
         entering this = state,=20 the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval=20 timer
         (see Section=20 4.5).  The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount=20 counter
         to zero (0) = (see=20 Section 4.6).  The WTP also clears=20 all
         information from = ACs it=20 may have received during a=20 previous
         Discovery=20 phase.
 
But = DiscoveryInterval timer=20 is described as:
 

4.5.1.  DiscoveryInterval
 
  =20 The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP MUST wait after receiving=20 a
   Discovery Response, before initiating a DTLS=20 handshake.
 
Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on = MaxDiscoveryInterval=20 timer? Also, there is mention of DiscoveryInterval timer even in = transition from=20 Discovery to Discovery.
 
4.5.6. =20 MaxDiscoveryInterval
 
  =20 The maximum time allowed between sending discovery requests from=20 the
   interface, in seconds.  Must be no less than 2 = seconds=20 and no greater
   than 180 seconds.
 
   Default: 20 seconds.
 
Thanks
Smitha

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E75D.2757FD08-- --===============0061205736== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0061205736==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 04 02:36:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV0N3-0002Tt-0l for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 02:36:45 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV0Mz-0006Eg-FJ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 02:36:45 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB5B144805E for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88FBC43005F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F1B398025 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [12.129.211.51]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E321439800D for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6L006OIM6DR7@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for capwap@frascone.com; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 23:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.188]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6L00146M6CMW@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for capwap@frascone.com; Tue, 03 Oct 2006 23:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.24.1.18] (Forwarded-For: [10.18.23.62]) by szxmc01-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:35:43 +0500 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:35:43 +0500 From: zhaoyujin 31390 To: capwap@frascone.com Message-id: <299ff62299ce21.299ce21299ff62@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-language: zh-CN Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: zh-CN Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] One description issue for Type of message element TLV X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d The following figure (In section 4.4) is different with the context. The type is 16bits, but the figure is 32bits Thanks Michael The format of a message element uses the TLV format shown here: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Length | Value ... +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Where Type (16 bit) identifies the character of the information carried in the Value field and Length (16 bits) indicates the number of bytes in the Value field. Type field values are allocated as follows: Usage Type Values CAPWAP Protocol Message Elements 1-1023 IEEE 802.11 Message Elements 1024-2047 Reserved for Future Use 2048 - 65024 This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From haraldaroys@garetina.com Wed Oct 04 08:26:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV5pL-0003U7-Ud for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:26:19 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV5pL-0004gv-T5 for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:26:19 -0400 Received: from 125-230-31-112.dynamic.hinet.net ([125.230.31.112] helo=garetina.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV5pG-0007mO-9C for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:26:19 -0400 Message-ID: <01c6e7b0$46490a10$701fe67d@GIGA> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 20:26:10 +0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Enya Kennamer" From: "Enya Kennamer" To: Subject: Re: Hi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_21E37_01C6E7F3.548417D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_21E37_01C6E7F3.548417D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, ClAvLIS AMBvlEN VALvlUM VlAvGRA Economize 60% http://www.yiavlavieb.info =20 _____ =20 militaristic status quo and war forever. Who perhaps prefer a future didnt understand it-yet I think that it affected you emotionally. enlist others of like age and mind. ------=_NextPart_000_21E37_01C6E7F3.548417D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

ClAvLIS

AMBvlEN

VALvlUM

VlAvGRA

 

militaristic status quo and war forever. Who perhaps prefer a = future
didnt understand it-yet I think that it affected you emotionally.
enlist others of like age and mind.

------=_NextPart_000_21E37_01C6E7F3.548417D0-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 04 11:20:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV8YN-0002dP-I7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:20:59 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV8YJ-0003qh-QZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:20:59 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F268439809F for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490BC43009A for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296914311F7 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60320.mail.yahoo.com (web60320.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.128]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9FD8D4311E5 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 99515 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Oct 2006 15:20:10 -0000 Message-ID: <20061004152010.99513.qmail@web60320.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.129.211.52] by web60320.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:20:10 PDT Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:20:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: Dorothy Stanley MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2039947351==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 200d029292fbb60d25b263122ced50fc --===============2039947351== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2001680706-1159975210=:99098" --0-2001680706-1159975210=:99098 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dorothy,=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Dorothy Stanley =0ATo: Bob O'Hara (boohara) =0ACc: = Saravanan Govindan ; Cheng Hong ; capwap@frascone.com=0ASent: Tuesday, October 3, 20= 06 5:09:55 PM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Co= nsiderations=0A=0ABob, all,=0A=0AComments inline.=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0ADorothy= =0A=0A=0AOn 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote:=0A =0A= Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does not a= dd any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity. A replayed= frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate frame detec= tion mechanisms. See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequenc= e number is part of the additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of= 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions. And PLEASE read 802.1= 1 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is necessary.=0A=0A= =0AIn Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP includes the frame = sequence control field =96 and the sequence number, =0Abits 4-15 of the fra= me equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AAD; so that only the frag= ment number is protected.=0AThe TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment numb= er nor the sequence number of the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as = the TKIP MIC=0Ais MSDU based.=0A=0AIn 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recove= ry, the text indicates that a STA may omit =0Abroadcast/multicast frame dat= a from its duplicate detection cache; if bc/mc data is not included, then n= ormal=0Aduplicate frame detection will not apply.=0A As I said several emai= ls ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that t= he 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to receive the frame, attem= pt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC. This must be done for EVERY frame = received, whether it is a replayed frame or not. This set of functions is = performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additional res= ources of the STA. So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an a= ttack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other fra= me.=0A=0AThe MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in = hardware in the chipset for CCMP.=0AHowever, the TKIP MIC calculation is ty= pically performed in the driver, in software.=0A=0AIf a STA does not have t= he proper RSC value, there is a "window of vulnerability" before it receive= s=0Athe correct value, during=0Awhich the STA can receive and process repla= yed bc/mc frames. The magnitude of the DOS aspect of this=0Adepends on the= STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impact or sw/tkip-some = small impact.=0AThe larger issue is that the replay protection mechanism gu= arrantees provided by 802.11i are lost.=0A--snip=0A=3D=3D>=0AAre you favori= ng a solution Charles sketched, i.e. WTP sends keyRSC value during authenti= cation/reassociation of each new STA so that AC can use the correct (or clo= se to correct) value in Message 3 of 4-way handshake and Message 1 of group= key handshake?=0ACan you clarify this?=0A=0AThanks=0ABehcet --0-2001680706-1159975210=:99098 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dorothy,

=0A
----- Original Mess= age ----
From: Dorothy Stanley <dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: Bob= O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com>
Cc: Saravanan Govindan <S= aravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>; Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panaso= nic.com>; capwap@frascone.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:09:55 = PM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Consideratio= ns

Bob, all,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

Dorothy
=0A
On 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com> wrote:=0A=0A
=0A
=  
=0A
Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mech= anism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and com= plexity.  A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the nor= mal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.  See section <= SPAN>8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (wher= e the frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) a= nd section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions= .  And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this= proposal is necessary.
=0A

= =0A

In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP&nb= sp; includes the frame sequence control field =96 and the sequence number, =
bits 4-15 of the frame equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AA= D; so that only the fragment number is protected.

=0A

The TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequ= ence number of  the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP M= IC
is MSDU based.

=0A

In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text indicates that a STA = may omit
broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate detection ca= che; if bc/mc data is not included, then normal
duplicate frame detectio= n will not apply.

=0A

 As I said several emails= ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the= 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt= to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.  This must be done for EVERY fra= me received, whether it is a replayed frame or not.  This set of funct= ions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additi= onal resources of the STA.  So, the attack, if it can even be characte= rized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it = any other frame.

=0A

The MIC calculat= ion, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in hardware in the chipset f= or CCMP.
However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typically performed in the= driver, in software.

=0A

If a STA do= es not have the proper RSC value, there is a "window of vulnerability" befo= re it receives
the correct value, during
which the STA can receive an= d process replayed  bc/mc frames. The magnitude of the DOS aspect of t= his
depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no im= pact or sw/tkip-some small impact.
The larger issue is that the replay p= rotection mechanism guarrantees provided by 802.11i are lost.
=

=0A

--snip

=0A

=3D= =3D>

=0A

Are you favoring a solution C= harles sketched, i.e. WTP sends keyRSC value during authentication/reassoci= ation of each new STA so that AC can use the correct (or close to correct) = value in Message 3 of 4-way handshake and Message 1 of group key handshake?=

=0A

Can you clarify this?<= /P>=0A

 

=0A

Thanks=

=0A

Behcet

=
--0-2001680706-1159975210=:99098-- --===============2039947351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============2039947351==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 04 12:26:57 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV9aD-0000l4-SD for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:26:57 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GV9Mu-0006CU-IZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:13:18 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF925398044 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B38743009A for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A65431831 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.184]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA1143185E for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m19so510533nfc for ; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.254.1 with SMTP id b1mr2550118nfi; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610040907n6113d32cq4f875a72795f8f14@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:07:47 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: capwap MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 204: More General wireless support /was Re: suggestion for Issue # 204, "More general wireless support" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1183930124==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0489daa2bca46f53f2cc9214d1b54371 --===============1183930124== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_32828_33497798.1159978067877" ------=_Part_32828_33497798.1159978067877 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All, Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are listed below. Comments please. Thanks, Dorothy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest the following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless technology binding. 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. 4 - 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology specific radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information element as follows: IEEE 802.11 Radio Information The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate the radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP. The Discovery Request message MUST include one such message element per radio in the WTP. The Radio- Type field is used by the AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used with the WTP. The value contains two fields, as shown. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio ID | Radio Type | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio Type | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Type: 38 for WTP Radio Information Length: 5 Radio ID: The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an interface index on the WTP Radio Type: The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present. The following values are supported: 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. 4 - 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. 0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n: The 4 radio types indicated are supported in the WTP. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx power are common parameters for RF management. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Add "WTP radio channel" Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to AC) or to configure channel (AC to AP). Now,. 11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control has channel configuration information. But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will provide more common parameter for any wireless technology. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Channel | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ The commenter suggests the following: 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding. I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better. If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by protocol. The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter and know current configuration on the WTP radio. If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there may be common elements, it's not clear that the CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements across wireless systems. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4) 11.9.24. IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common event for any wireless technology. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to have additional information reported with the event however. Not sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this point. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) 11.9.1. IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could achieve abstract while make it work for most wireless technology. If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service, update wireless service" in the section 4.4. Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding section. The commenter suggests a solution: 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4 The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding identifier. The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using (Probably eventually managed by IANA) Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service. The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) 11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section 4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of Service". While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service. The commenter suggests the following solution: 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of Service" Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service". For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great. Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data. The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear that there are enough elements common to multiple wireless services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude if desired. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4 Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count" and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies. However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions. On 9/28/06, young wrote: > > Hi Pat and all, > > I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution. > > 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", > and put it in the section 4.4 > > The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". > > Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep > > Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode > > these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). > > While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding > identifier. > > The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using > > (Probably eventually managed by IANA) > > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel > Mode +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Wireless binding identifier | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Type | Length | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Value... > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update > WLAN". > > * * > > 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality > of Service" > > Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the > "WTP Quality of Service". > > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > > For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be > great. > > > > 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 > > The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind > parameter are common for any kind wireless binding. > > I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. > > Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power > these kind Info should not be sent > > during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio > configuration" is better. > > If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message > should be suggested by protocol. > > The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, > Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. > > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > > The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this > way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter > > and know current configuration on the WTP radio. > > If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE > 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. > > IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE > 802.11 related element. > > > > 4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the > section 4.4 > > Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most > the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" > > could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success > Count" and so on. > > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > > > > Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will > be divided into two parts. > > > > Cheers > > > > Richard (Shiyang) > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > ------=_Part_32828_33497798.1159978067877 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All,

Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are
listed below.

Comments please.

Thanks,

Dorothy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information

Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest the
following value

should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless
technology binding.

1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio.

2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio.

4 - 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio.

8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio.

Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology specific
radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information element
as follows:

IEEE 802.11 Radio Information

The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate the
radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP. The Discovery Request message MUST
include one such message element per radio in the WTP. The Radio-
Type field is used by the AC to determine which 802.11 technology
specific binding is to be used with the WTP.

The value contains two fields, as shown.

0 1 2 3
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Radio ID | Radio Type |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Radio Type |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Type: 38 for WTP Radio Information

Length: 5

Radio ID: The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an
interface index on the WTP

Radio Type: The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.
The following values are supported:

1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio.

2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio.

4 - 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio.

8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio.

0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n: The 4 radio types
indicated are supported in the WTP.
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power

Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx power are
common parameters for RF management.

Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the
IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values
defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not
extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define
values relative to its definitions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Add "WTP radio channel"

Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to AC) or to
configure channel (AC to AP).

Now,. 11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct
Sequence Control

has channel configuration information.

But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will provide

more common parameter for any wireless technology.

0 1 2 3

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

| Radio ID | Reserved | Current Channel |

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

The commenter suggests the following:

3)      Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4

The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding.

I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.

Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent

during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better.

If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by protocol.

The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter

and know current configuration on the WTP radio.

If this way, current "11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. 

IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element.

 Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft.  While there may be common elements, it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements
across wireless systems.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) 11.9.24. IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications

Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common event for
any wireless technology.

Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter
that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for
any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to
have additional information reported with the event however. Not
sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this point.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5) 11.9.1. IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN

How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could achieve
abstract while make it work

for most wireless technology.

If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service,
update wireless service" in the section 4.4.

Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding
section.


The commenter suggests a solution:

1)       Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4

The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".

Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep

Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode

these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).

While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding identifier.

The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using

( Probably eventually managed by IANA)

Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used
together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service.

The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that
there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6) 11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service

As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section 4.4.

Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of
Service".

While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of
Service.

The commenter suggests the following solution:

2) Rename "11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as  "WTP Quality of Service"

Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service".

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great.

Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed
to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data.

The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear that
there are enough elements common to multiple wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude if
desired.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as  "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4

Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"

could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count" and so on.

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies.
However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values
defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to
other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions.


On 9/28/06, young <young@huawei-3com.com> wrote:

Hi Pat and all,

I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution.

1)       Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4

The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".

Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep

Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode

these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).

While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding identifier.

The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using

( Probably eventually managed by IANA)

 

        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

       |    Radio ID   |    WLAN ID    |        MAC Mode    | Tunnel Mode       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

       |             Wireless binding identifier                      |

       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

       |         Type                  |             Length            |

       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

       |                          Value...

       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update WLAN".

 

2) Rename "11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as  "WTP Quality of Service"

Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service".

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great.

 

3)      Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4

The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding.

I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.

Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent

during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better.

If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by protocol.

The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter

and know current configuration on the WTP radio.

If this way, current "11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. 

IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element.

 

4)      Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as  "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4

Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"

could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count" and so on.

For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

 

Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will be divided into two parts.

 

Cheers

 

Richard  (Shiyang)

 


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------=_Part_32828_33497798.1159978067877-- --===============1183930124== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1183930124==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 04 14:32:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVBXX-0006uk-JE for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 14:32:19 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVBXV-0004ms-G1 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 14:32:19 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9157398076 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A7E43009A for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A70431F3C for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828E9431F3E for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m19so548111nfc for ; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.91.6 with SMTP id t6mr2712584nfl; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610041129i4703812w37892c2658e534fa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:29:18 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: capwap MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 220 "Ambiguitues with DTLS"/ was Ambiguities with DTLS X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1875717914==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 872695ea777a517bf5717e5acc69f8be --===============1875717914== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_37371_8135035.1159986558166" ------=_Part_37371_8135035.1159986558166 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All, The proposed resolution to Issue 220 is below. Comments welcome. Thanks, Dorothy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. The current draft seems to be ambiguous with respect to two DTLS items. The draft says in the section describing the stat machine transitions: Idle to Init (Z): This transition indicates the beginning of a DTLS session. WTP: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine, and causes the WTP to send a DTLS ClientHello to the AC. AC: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine. The AC starts the WaitJoin timer and awaits reception of a DTLS ClientHello message. In the description of transition aa, the draft says: AC: Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid cookie, the AC sets the WaitJoin timer. These two transitions seem to require "starting" or "setting" the Waitjoin timer in the AC both before and after the receipt of the ClientHello message. I believe the text in transition z is correct and should either be reflected in the description of transition aa, or removed from it to avoid conflict. Proposed resolution: No change to the description of (aa). The current text describing Transition (aa), listed below, does not reference the WaitJoin Timer: Idle to Join (aa): This transition occurs when the WTP presents a DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid cookie to the AC. WTP: This transition is a no-op for the WTP. AC: The AC does not maintain state information until the WTP presents a DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid cookie. Upon receipt of a DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid cookie, the AC creates session state and transitions to the Join state. The text in 6.2 though is incorrect in its description of WaitJoin timer usage. Change from: After determining that a WTP should join the AC, the AC creates session state containing the WTP address, port and session ID, sets the WaitJoin timer for the session, sends the Join Response message to the WTP. The WTP, receiving a Join Response message checks for success or failure. If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the WaitJoin timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure or Image Data state. Otherwise, the WTP enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session. to Upon receipt of the DTLSClientHello, the AC creates session state containing the WTP address, port and session ID, sets the WaitJoin timer for the session, sends the Join Response message to the WTP. The WTP, receiving a Join Response message checks for success or failure. If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the WaitJoin timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure State. Otherwise, the WTP enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session. Similarly, the text in 6.1 is incorrect in its description of WaitJoin Timer usage. Change from: The Join Request message is used by a WTP to inform an AC that it wishes to provide services through the AC. A Join Request message is sent by a WTP after receiving one or more Discovery Responses, and completion of DTLS session establishment. When an AC receives a Join Request message it responds with a Join Response message. Upon completion of the DTLS handshake (synonymous with DTLS "session establishment"), the WTP sends the Join Request message to the AC. Upon receipt of the Join Request Message, the AC generates a Join Response message and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or failure. Upon transmission of the Join Request message, the WTP sets the WaitJoin timer. If the Join Response message has not been received prior to expiration, the WTP aborts the Join process and transitions back to the Discovery state, see Section 2.3.1). Upon receipt of the Join Response message, the WaitJoin timer is deactivated. If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response with a failure indication then enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session. Upon determining which AC to join, the WTP creates session state containing the AC address and session ID, creates the Join Request message, sets the WaitJoin timer for the session and sends the Join Request message to the AC. to The Join Request message is used by a WTP to inform an AC that it wishes to provide services through the AC. A Join Request message is sent by a WTP after (optionally) receiving one or more Discovery Responses, and completion of DTLS session establishment. When an AC receives a Join Request message it responds with a Join Response message. Upon completion of the DTLS handshake (synonymous with DTLS "session establishment"), the WTP sends the Join Request message to the AC. Upon receipt of the Join Request Message, the AC generates a Join Response message and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or failure. If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response with a failure indication then enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session. 2. The draft also says, in the description of transition o, that the WTP should send DTLSReset to the state machine. Should this be DTLSShutdown? Proposed resolution: Yes. Change "DTLSReset" to "DTLSShutdown" On 9/14/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > Tracker issue 220 created. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:22 AM > > To: Capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: [Capwap] Ambiguities with DTLS > > > > The current draft seems to be ambiguous with respect to two > > DTLS items. > > > > The draft says in the section describing the stat machine transitions: > > Idle to Init (Z): This transition indicates the beginning of > > a DTLS session. > > > > WTP: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the > > DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine, and causes > > the WTP to send a DTLS ClientHello to the AC. > > > > AC: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the > > DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine. The AC > > starts the WaitJoin timer and awaits reception of a DTLS > > ClientHello message. > > > > In the description of transition aa, the draft says: > > AC: Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid > > cookie, the AC sets the WaitJoin timer. > > > > These two transitions seem to require "starting" or "setting" > > the Waitjoin timer in the AC both before and after the > > receipt of the ClientHello message. I believe the text in > > transition z is correct and should either be reflected in the > > description of transition aa, or removed from it to avoid conflict. > > > > The draft also says, in the description of transition o, that > > the WTP should send DTLSReset to the state machine. Should > > this be DTLSShutdown? > > > > -Bob > > > > Bob O'Hara > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > ------=_Part_37371_8135035.1159986558166 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All,

The proposed resolution to Issue 220 is below. 

Comments welcome.

Thanks,

Dorothy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The current draft seems to be ambiguous with respect to two DTLS items.
 The draft says in the section describing the stat machine transitions:
Idle to Init (Z): This transition indicates the beginning of a DTLS session.
 
WTP: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the DTLSStart command 
from the CAPWAP state machine, and causes the WTP to send a DTLS ClientHello 
to the AC.
 
AC: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the DTLSStart command from 
the CAPWAP state machine. The AC starts the WaitJoin timer and awaits 
reception of a DTLS ClientHello message.
 
In the description of transition aa, the draft says:
AC: Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid cookie, the AC 
sets the WaitJoin timer.  
 
These two transitions seem to require "starting" or "setting" the Waitjoin 
timer in the AC both before and after the receipt of the ClientHello message.  
I believe the text in transition z is correct and should either be reflected 
in the description of transition aa, or removed from it to avoid conflict.
 
Proposed resolution: No change to the description of (aa). The current text describing
Transition (aa), listed below, does not reference the WaitJoin Timer:

   Idle to Join (aa): This transition occurs when the WTP presents a

      DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid cookie to the AC.

      WTP: This transition is a no-op for the WTP.

      AC: The AC does not maintain state information until the WTP

         presents a DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid cookie.

         Upon receipt of a DTLS ClientHello message containing a valid

         cookie, the AC creates session state and transitions to the

         Join state.


The text in 6.2 though is incorrect in its description of WaitJoin timer
usage. Change from:

After determining that a WTP should join the AC, the AC creates
session state containing the WTP address, port and session ID, sets
the WaitJoin timer for the session, sends the Join Response message
to the WTP.

The WTP, receiving a Join Response message checks for success or
failure. If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the
WaitJoin timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure or Image
Data state. Otherwise, the WTP enters the CAPWAP reset state,
resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session.

to

Upon receipt of the DTLSClientHello, the AC creates
session state containing the WTP address, port and session ID, sets
the WaitJoin timer for the session, sends the Join Response message
to the WTP.

The WTP, receiving a Join Response message checks for success or
failure. If the message indicates success, the WTP clears the
WaitJoin timer for the session and proceeds to the Configure State.
Otherwise, the WTP enters the CAPWAP reset state,
resulting in shutdown of the DTLS session.

Similarly, the text in 6.1 is incorrect in its description of
WaitJoin Timer usage.

Change from:

The Join Request message is used by a WTP to inform an AC that it
wishes to provide services through the AC. A Join Request message is
sent by a WTP after receiving one or more Discovery Responses, and
completion of DTLS session establishment. When an AC receives a Join
Request message it responds with a Join Response message.

Upon completion of the DTLS handshake (synonymous with DTLS "session
establishment"), the WTP sends the Join Request message to the AC.
Upon receipt of the Join Request Message, the AC generates a Join
Response message and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or
failure.

Upon transmission of the Join Request message, the WTP sets the
WaitJoin timer. If the Join Response message has not been received
prior to expiration, the WTP aborts the Join process and transitions
back to the Discovery state, see Section 2.3.1). Upon receipt of the
Join Response message, the WaitJoin timer is deactivated.

If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response with a
failure indication then enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in
shutdown of the DTLS session.

Upon determining which AC to join, the WTP creates session state
containing the AC address and session ID, creates the Join Request
message, sets the WaitJoin timer for the session and sends the Join
Request message to the AC.

to

The Join Request message is used by a WTP to inform an AC that it
wishes to provide services through the AC. A Join Request message is
sent by a WTP after (optionally) receiving one or more Discovery Responses, and
completion of DTLS session establishment. When an AC receives a Join
Request message it responds with a Join Response message.

Upon completion of the DTLS handshake (synonymous with DTLS "session
establishment"), the WTP sends the Join Request message to the AC.
Upon receipt of the Join Request Message, the AC generates a Join
Response message and sends it to the WTP, indicating success or
failure.

If the AC rejects the Join Request, it sends a Join Response with a
failure indication then enters the CAPWAP reset state, resulting in
shutdown of the DTLS session.


2. The draft also says, in the description of transition o, that the WTP should 
send DTLSReset to the state machine.  Should this be DTLSShutdown?
Proposed resolution: Yes. Change "DTLSReset" to "DTLSShutdown"

On 9/14/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
Tracker issue 220 created.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara)
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:22 AM
> To: Capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] Ambiguities with DTLS
>
> The current draft seems to be ambiguous with respect to two
> DTLS items.
>
> The draft says in the section describing the stat machine transitions:
> Idle to Init (Z): This transition indicates the beginning of
> a DTLS session.
>
> WTP: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the
> DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine, and causes
> the WTP to send a DTLS ClientHello to the AC.
>
> AC: The state transition is triggered by receipt of the
> DTLSStart command from the CAPWAP state machine. The AC
> starts the WaitJoin timer and awaits reception of a DTLS
> ClientHello message.
>
> In the description of transition aa, the draft says:
> AC: Upon receipt of a ClientHello message containing a valid
> cookie, the AC sets the WaitJoin timer.
>
> These two transitions seem to require "starting" or "setting"
> the Waitjoin timer in the AC both before and after the
> receipt of the ClientHello message.  I believe the text in
> transition z is correct and should either be reflected in the
> description of transition aa, or removed from it to avoid conflict.
>
> The draft also says, in the description of transition o, that
> the WTP should send DTLSReset to the state machine.  Should
> this be DTLSShutdown?
>
>  -Bob
>
> Bob O'Hara
> Cisco Systems - WNBU
>
> Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
> Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>
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------=_Part_37371_8135035.1159986558166-- --===============1875717914== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1875717914==-- From lybae@challengediscovery.com Thu Oct 05 08:45:53 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVSbp-0003Bc-BN for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 08:45:53 -0400 Received: from 87-196-90-212.net.novis.pt ([87.196.90.212] helo=challengediscovery.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVOd8-0004P4-KM for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 04:31:00 -0400 Message-ID: <01c6e858$93b86860$9901a8c0@acer> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:30:55 +0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Ruwa Krull" From: "Ruwa Krull" To: Subject: Re: Hi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_14451_01C6E860.F583FC50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_14451_01C6E860.F583FC50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, VALhlUM ClAhLIS VlAhGRA AMBhlEN Save 60 % with http://www.linkunhertiondefunhades.com =20 _____ =20 there when I came out. Shaking his joined hands over his head when I I turned to thank my temporal saviors, but they were already gone. Well, Jim, I said to my smiling and sleek image in the mirror, as I ------=_NextPart_000_14451_01C6E860.F583FC50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

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there when I came out. Shaking his joined hands over his head when = I
I turned to thank my temporal saviors, but they were already = gone.
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------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C6E8A5.81A17D90-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 11:58:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVVcQ-0004CA-Io for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:58:42 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVVcO-0006NZ-Mb for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:58:42 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8D9398011 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA994300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21729144803A for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A25144804B for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so863597nfb for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 08:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.29.3 with SMTP id g3mr4076817nfj; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610050857l51e9b915ra3283f95a17002ec@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:57:49 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "Behcet Sarikaya" In-Reply-To: <20061004152010.99513.qmail@web60320.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20061004152010.99513.qmail@web60320.mail.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: * Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1641802699==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7c1a129dc3801d79d40c5ca8dee767eb --===============1641802699== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11157_31406632.1160063869870" ------=_Part_11157_31406632.1160063869870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi Behcet, Comment inline below. Dorothy On 10/4/06, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > > Hi Dorothy, > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dorothy Stanley < dstanley1389@gmail.com> > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: Saravanan Govindan < Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com>; Cheng Hong > < Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>; capwap@frascone.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:09:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > Bob, all, > > Comments inline. > > Thanks, > > Dorothy > > On 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) < boohara@cisco.com> wrote: > > > > > > Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does > > not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity. A > > replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate > > frame detection mechanisms. See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where th= e > > frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and > > section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions. > > And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this > > proposal is necessary. > > > > In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP includes the frame > sequence control field =96 and the sequence number, > bits 4-15 of the frame equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AAD; > so that only the fragment number is protected. > > The TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequence number > of the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP MIC > is MSDU based. > > In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text indicates that a STA > may omit > broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate detection cache; if > bc/mc data is not included, then normal > duplicate frame detection will not apply. > > As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value > for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have t= o > receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC. This mus= t > be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or not. > This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not > consume any additional resources of the STA. So, the attack, if it can e= ven > be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA tha= n > sending it any other frame. > > The MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in hardwar= e > in the chipset for CCMP. > However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typically performed in the driver, i= n > software. > > If a STA does not have the proper RSC value, there is a "window of > vulnerability" before it receives > the correct value, during > which the STA can receive and process replayed bc/mc frames. The > magnitude of the DOS aspect of this > depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impact > or sw/tkip-some small impact. > The larger issue is that the replay protection mechanism guarrantees > provided by 802.11i are lost. > > --snip > > =3D=3D> > > Are you favoring a solution Charles sketched, i.e. WTP sends keyRSC value > during authentication/reassociation of each new STA so that AC can use th= e > correct (or close to correct) value in Message 3 of 4-way handshake and > Message 1 of group key handshake? > > Can you clarify this? > It seems that there are three categories of solutions being discussed: (a) Those that remove the possibility of replayed frames - ideal, but alternatives on the table are viewed as too complex and introduce time constraints. (b) Those that reduce the number of previously sent bc/mc frames that can b= e replayed - less than ideal, but less complex. (c) Those that allow any previously sent bc/mc frame with a given GTK to be replayed. If asked to select between (b) and (c), I would favor a (b) category solution over a (c) category solution. Thanks > > Behcet > ------=_Part_11157_31406632.1160063869870 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi Behcet,

Comment inline below.

Dorothy

On 10/4/06, Behcet Sarikaya < behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dorothy,

----- Original Message ----
From: Dorothy Stanley < dstanley1389@gmail.com>
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) <boohara@cisco.com>
Cc: Saravanan Govinda= n < Saravanan.Govindan@s= g.panasonic.com>; Cheng Hong < Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>; capwap@frascone.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:09:55 PM
Su= bject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for=20 802.11i Considerations

Bob, all,

Comments inline.
<= br>Thanks,

Dorothy

On 9/29/06, Bob O'Hara (boohara) < boohara@cisco.com> wrote:
 
Again, your proposal does not eliminate any attack mechanism and does not add any functionality to the protocol, only cost and complexity.  A replayed frame will be discarded by the MAC, using the normal duplicate frame detection mechanisms.  See section 8.3.3.3.2 of 802.11i (where the frame sequence number is part of the additional authenticated data) and section 9.2.9 of 802.11-1999 for the description of these functions.  And PLEASE read 802.11 and 802.11i before again asserting that this proposal is necessary.

In Section 8.3.3.3.2, the AAD construction for CCMP  includes the f= rame sequence control field =96 and the sequence number,
bits 4-15 of t= he frame equence control field - is masked to 0 in the AAD; so that only th= e fragment number is protected.

The TKIP MIC protects neither the fragment number nor the sequence number of  the 802.11 frame sequence control field, as the TKIP MIC
is MSD= U based.

In 9.2.9, Duplicate detection and recovery, the text indicates that a ST= A may omit
broadcast/multicast frame data from its duplicate detection = cache; if bc/mc data is not included, then normal
duplicate frame detection will not apply.

 As I said several emails ago, the ONLY effect of using zero as the value for the KeyRSC is that the 802.11 chipset in the STA (client) will have to receive the frame, attempt to decrypt it, and validate the MIC.  This must be done for EVERY frame received, whether it is a replayed frame or not.  This set of functions is performed in the 802.11 STA chipset and does not consume any additional resources of the STA.  So, the attack, if it can even be characterized as an attack, is no more effective at DOSing the STA than sending it any other frame.

The MIC calculation, and encrpt/decrypt is typically performed in hardwa= re in the chipset for CCMP.
However, the TKIP MIC calculation is typical= ly performed in the driver, in software.

If a STA does not have the proper RSC value, there is a "window of = vulnerability" before it receives
the correct value, during
whic= h the STA can receive and process replayed  bc/mc frames. The magnitud= e of the DOS aspect of this
depends on the STA crypto implementation - hw/ccmp - virtually no impac= t or sw/tkip-some small impact.
The larger issue is that the replay prot= ection mechanism guarrantees provided by 802.11i are lost.

--snip

=3D=3D>

Are you favoring a solution Charles sketched, i.e. WTP sends keyRSC value during authentication/reassociation of each new STA so that AC can use the correct (or close to correct) value in Message 3 of 4-way handshake and Message 1 of group key handshake?

Can you clarify this?

It seems that there are three categories of solutions = being discussed:
(a) Those that remove the possibility of replayed frames - ideal, but alternatives on the table are viewed as too complex and introduce time constraints.
(b) Those that reduce the number of previously sent bc/mc frames that can b= e replayed - less than ideal, but less complex.
(c) Those that allow any previously sent bc/mc frame with a given GTK to be= replayed.

If asked to select between (b) and (c), I would favor a (b) category soluti= on over a (c) category solution.

Thanks

Behcet


------=_Part_11157_31406632.1160063869870-- --===============1641802699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1641802699==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 12:50:48 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVWQq-0002WT-Ms for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 12:50:48 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVWJY-0005PK-5q for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 12:43:19 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A8E3980AA for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28224300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8640D398079 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:41:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 14 days 07:54:22 ago Received: from thingmagic.com (unknown [204.9.221.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325C1398081 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.5]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1352748; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 12:41:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5bfe7a820610050934k245312ebrdf168d059d938084@mail.gmail.com> References: <5bfe7a820610050934k245312ebrdf168d059d938084@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Message-Id: <82E78D5D-C43D-4FFF-91A1-708918E5DBAB@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 12:39:31 -0400 To: Dorothy Stanley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.05 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue, please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 Hi All, This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power level will actually be set in dBm. If that is true, why not use dBm (or centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)? Margaret On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote: > All, > > The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the > commenters suggestion, change > > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > output power in mW." > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > output power in 0.1mW." > > > Comments welcome, > > Thanks, > > Dorothy > > On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 wrote: Section > 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > output power in mW." > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > output power in 0.1mW." > > The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between > dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap > transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding > dbm. > > For example > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 1mw > 2 dbm<----->1.6mw ----> 2mw > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 2mw > > This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is > 2dbm or 3 dbm. > > The following is suggestion: > For example > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 13mw > 2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw ----> 16mw > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 20mw > > Thanks > Michael > > > The Tx power message element value is bi-directional. When > sent by > > the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in > > question. When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the > WTP > > MUST adhere to. > > > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > +-+-+ > > | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Tx > Power | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > +-+-+ > > > > Type: 1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power > > > > Length: 4 > > > > Radio ID: An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure. > > > > Reserved: MUST be set to zero > > > > Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output > power > > in mW. > > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained > herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than > the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email > immediately and delete it! > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 12:53:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVWR2-0002fu-UM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 12:51:00 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVWD7-0004dh-HM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 12:36:42 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6ED398070 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB034300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8296144804B for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15095144803C for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so872625nfb for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 09:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.210.16 with SMTP id i16mr4073161nfg; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 09:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610050934k245312ebrdf168d059d938084@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:34:18 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "zhaoyujin 31390" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue, please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0450677499==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 --===============0450677499== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_12023_161462.1160066058919" ------=_Part_12023_161462.1160066058919 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All, The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the commenters suggestion, change From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW." to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output power in 0.1mW." Comments welcome, Thanks, Dorothy On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 wrote: > > Section 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output > power in mW." > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output > power in 0.1mW." > > The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between dbm and > mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap transimit one mw value, > the device can't precise get corresponding dbm. > > For example > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 1mw > 2 dbm<----->1.6mw ----> 2mw > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 2mw > > This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is 2dbm or 3 > dbm. > > The following is suggestion: > For example > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 13mw > 2 dbm<----->1.6mw ----> 16mw > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 20mw > > Thanks > Michael > > > The Tx power message element value is bi-directional. When sent by > > the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in > > question. When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the WTP > > MUST adhere to. > > > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Tx Power | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > > Type: 1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power > > > > Length: 4 > > > > Radio ID: An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure. > > > > Reserved: MUST be set to zero > > > > Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output power > > in mW. > > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, > which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed > above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, > but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or > dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is > prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by > phone or email > immediately and delete it! > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > ------=_Part_12023_161462.1160066058919 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All,

The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the commenters suggestion, change


   From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW."
   to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output power in 0.1mW."


Comments welcome,

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com> wrote:
Section 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change

   From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW."
   to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output power in 0.1mW."

The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding dbm.

  For example
         1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 1mw
         2 dbm<----->1.6mw  ----> 2mw
         3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 2mw

  This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is 2dbm or 3 dbm.

The following is suggestion:
  For example
         1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 13mw
         2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw  ----> 16mw
         3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 20mw

Thanks
Michael

>   The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.  When sent by
>   the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
>   question.  When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the WTP
>   MUST adhere to.
>
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Tx Power       |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>   Type:  1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
>
>   Length:  4
>
>   Radio ID:  An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.
>
>   Reserved:  MUST be set to zero
>
>   Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output power
>      in mW.

This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email
immediately and delete it!

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------=_Part_12023_161462.1160066058919-- --===============0450677499== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0450677499==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 16:17:31 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVZet-0003xA-Pi for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:17:31 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVZer-0006Vs-1Q for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:17:31 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7DCA144804E for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485E14300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356A9398062 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1466D39806B for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.47] (helo=elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GVZd7-0003Dy-3S for capwap@frascone.com; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:15:41 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:15:40 -0400 Message-ID: <25818848.1160079340870.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:15:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: capwap Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff710c4ca365323226bd2cc836ee5c29fafa9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.47 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Following up once again - after careful review, I still agree with Charles, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations: 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities. Derived session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD discourage the use of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link security (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or the AC. When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security concerns are introduced. However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will exist when the following conditions are true: o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK. The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this, previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid. Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected that replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. The only way to completely close this window is to provide the exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard. Margaret Wasserman wrote: > Hi Charles, > > > >> If the consensus is to use RSC=0, then I think a disclaimer statement >> should be added to the security considerations section about the >> replay >> possibility in multicast protocols. Overall this is probably >> sufficient. > > This does seem like the simplest approach. So, if there is no > objection from our security advisors > (you and Scott Kelly), then I'm for it. > > > > Margaret > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > ______ _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 16:57:31 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVaHb-0007E0-7Q for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:57:31 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVaHV-0004LE-GM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:57:31 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB6C398058 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FD14300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E9A398055 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60325.mail.yahoo.com (web60325.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.133]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E76BA398042 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7733 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Oct 2006 20:56:29 -0000 Message-ID: <20061005205629.7731.qmail@web60325.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.129.211.52] by web60325.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:56:29 PDT Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:56:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: "Scott G. Kelly" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.747 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1438990598==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 --===============1438990598== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1641367754-1160081789=:4947" --0-1641367754-1160081789=:4947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a possibility. As far a= s interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interoperable but not correct. = If we allow implementations to snif in and modify then any value should be = acceptable which may be a concern for interoperability?=0A=0A=0A----- Origi= nal Message ----=0AFrom: Scott G. Kelly =0ATo: capwa= p =0ASent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM=0ASubj= ect: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations=0A=0A= =0AFollowing up once again - after careful review, I still agree with Charl= es, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations:=0A=0A13= .5. IEEE 802.11 Security=0A=0A When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastruc= ture with WEP encryption, the=0A CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vul= nerabilities. Derived=0A session keys between the STA and WTP can be com= promised, resulting in=0A many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHO= ULD discourage the use=0A of WEP and encourage use of technically sound c= ryptographic solutions=0A such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.=0A=0A Wh= en used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol=0A may introdu= ce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link security=0A (packet = encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or the AC. = =0A When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new securit= y =0A concerns are introduced. =0A=0A However, when the WTP provides li= nk security, a new vulnerability will=0A exist when the following conditi= ons are true:=0A=0A o the client is not the first to associate to the WT= P/ESSID=0A (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already ex= ists=0A=0A o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK=0A=0A= Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) =0A a= ssociated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the=0A 4-w= ay handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not=0A kno= wn when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.=0A The client w= ill update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC=0A upon receipt = of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this, =0A previous m= ulticast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing =0A GTK ma= y be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.=0A=0A Ty= pically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast=0A fr= ames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such=0A rep= lay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected that = =0A replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. =0A=0A T= he only way to completely close this window is to provide the =0A exact K= eyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any=0A other approach si= mply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given=0A the low relative thr= eat level this presents, the additional complexity=0A introduced by provi= ding the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That =0A is, this specifica= tion provides for a calculated risk in this regard.=0A=3D=3D>=0AHowever, WT= P implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value before forwarding mess= age 3 of the 4-way handshake.=0A=0A--behcet --0-1641367754-1160081789=:4947 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as= a possibility. As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interop= erable but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in and modify t= hen any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for interoperabil= ity?

=0A
----- Original Message ----
From: Scott G. Kell= y <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue= 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

=0A
Following up on= ce again - after careful review, I still agree with Charles, and here's som= e suggested text for the security considerations:

13.5.  I= EEE 802.11 Security

    When used with an IEEE 8= 02.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
   CAPWAP protoc= ol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
  = session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
&= nbsp;  many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD di= scourage the use
   of WEP and encourage use of technically so= und cryptographic solutions
   such as those in an IEEE 802.11= RSN.

   When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPW= AP protocol
   may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on= whether the link security
  (packet encryption and integrity = verification) is provided by the WTP or the AC.
   When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security    concerns are introduced.

   However, when t= he WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will
   exi= st when the following conditions are true:

    o= the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
  &= nbsp;     (i.e. other clients are associated), and= a GTK already exists

       &nbs= p;o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK

   U= nder these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
 &= nbsp; associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the   4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyR= SC is not
   known when the AC constructs the message containi= ng the GTK.
   The client will update its Key RSC value to the= current valid KeyRSC
   upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast m= essage, but prior to this,
   previous multicast/broadcast tr= affic which was secured with the existing
   GTK may be repla= yed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.

   = Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
&n= bsp;  frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to = such
   replay is expected to be very small. In most condition= s, it is expected that
   replayed frames could be detected (= and logged) by the WTP.

   The only way to completely clo= se this window is to provide the
   exact KeyRSC value in mes= sage 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
   other approach simply na= rrows the window to varying degrees. Given
   the low relative= threat level this presents, the additional complexity
   intr= oduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
   i= s, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.
=3D= =3D>
=0A
However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exac= t KeyRSC value before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.

-= -behcet
--0-1641367754-1160081789=:4947-- --===============1438990598== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1438990598==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 17:27:51 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVakx-0006Vr-OP for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:27:51 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVakv-0008R0-3N for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:27:51 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE663398026 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 731764300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D761448037 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.arubanetworks.com (mail.arubanetworks.com [216.31.249.253]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 290131448047 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aruba-mx1.arubanetworks.com ([10.1.1.17]) by mail.arubanetworks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:26:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:26:35 -0700 Message-ID: <99C8B9B2AD99664A87E12C839A2E9093F1652B@aruba-mx1.arubanetworks.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion Thread-Index: AcbjNAAMI0YnQmC2Rh2tP80FZz6XJgFjS6Dw References: <26298393.1159465449346.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <92EA30D4-8C07-4FC3-A2CB-4EED0CEDEEBB@thingmagic.com> From: "Partha Narasimhan" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Scott G. Kelly" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2006 21:26:35.0479 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF6D4E70:01C6E8C4] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd3fc8e909678b38737fc606dec187f0 My two cents below, FWIW. - Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded to support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the limits of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life. - In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the two-port solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the single-port mux solution. - The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear, except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on some other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies of implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for CAPWAP crept into people's minds. - Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors can bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability testing and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the argument that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to fit older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely deployed. Thanks partha PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder what is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG. -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM To: Scott G. Kelly Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion Hi Scott, I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP chairs. Although I drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and Dorothy. This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine. The other chairs may not agree. On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote: >> - Single-Processor: In this architecture, the control plane and the >> data plane run on a single processor. The demultiplexing of control >> and data packets happens on that processor. >> >> - Separate Data & Control Planes: In this architecture, the >> data and >> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate >> cards), typically connected via a switching fabric. This is >> a common >> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware, >> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to >> separate the control and data traffic. For CAPWAP to work >> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the >> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is >> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP >> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port >> numbers. The >> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection >> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields. > > This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have > nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to do > with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching > facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. This > is a critical distinction. I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not think that your correction fundamentally changes the situation. It would have been better if we had characterized these systems based on how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there are two type of systems: (1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component (such as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. There may be additional processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase "single- processor" to describe these systems was not correct. AND (2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to each architecture. > Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is > also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either of > the architectures, and in particular, in either of the > architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem > appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit > the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions. I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching incoming traffic. I am not currently aware of whether these systems are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be software upgraded to serve in that role. Given the widespread deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software upgrade, to systems of this type. I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, but my opinion on that subject is immaterial. Both systems are widely deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures. >> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN >> data traffic to the AC. In split-MAC local-forwarding mode, >> only the >> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane >> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves. > > This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined > split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to > handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when > you're doing local bridging of the data). Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of this text. > In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to speak > up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about this, > and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we > choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened > here, and go into this eyes wide open. Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep this work moving forward. Margaret _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 17:47:40 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVb48-0002ls-CA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:47:40 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVb46-0004qo-HW for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:47:40 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5373C39802D for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEB64300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CE61448022 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.184]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13AF1448009 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so948241nfb for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.94.20 with SMTP id w20mr4535940nfl; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610051444k6e26ca39q417afa6f7cb86f51@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:44:16 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "Margaret Wasserman" In-Reply-To: <82E78D5D-C43D-4FFF-91A1-708918E5DBAB@thingmagic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5bfe7a820610050934k245312ebrdf168d059d938084@mail.gmail.com> <82E78D5D-C43D-4FFF-91A1-708918E5DBAB@thingmagic.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue, please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0686509956==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 --===============0686509956== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17889_33048123.1160084656897" ------=_Part_17889_33048123.1160084656897 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Margaret, dBm units could also be used. This message element, and the TX Power Level use mW, the TX Power Level to correspond with the 802.11 MIB definitions, which use mW units. Dorothy On 10/5/06, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > > Hi All, > > This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power level > will actually be set in dBm. If that is true, why not use dBm (or > centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)? > > Margaret > > On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote: > > > All, > > > > The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the > > commenters suggestion, change > > > > > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in mW." > > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in 0.1mW." > > > > > > Comments welcome, > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dorothy > > > > On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 wrote: Section > > 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change > > > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in mW." > > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in 0.1mW." > > > > The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between > > dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap > > transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding > > dbm. > > > > For example > > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 1mw > > 2 dbm<----->1.6mw ----> 2mw > > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 2mw > > > > This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is > > 2dbm or 3 dbm. > > > > The following is suggestion: > > For example > > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 13mw > > 2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw ----> 16mw > > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 20mw > > > > Thanks > > Michael > > > > > The Tx power message element value is bi-directional. When > > sent by > > > the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in > > > question. When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the > > WTP > > > MUST adhere to. > > > > > > 0 1 2 3 > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > > 9 0 1 > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > > +-+-+ > > > | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Tx > > Power | > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > > +-+-+ > > > > > > Type: 1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power > > > > > > Length: 4 > > > > > > Radio ID: An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure. > > > > > > Reserved: MUST be set to zero > > > > > > Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output > > power > > > in mW. > > > > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from > > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose > > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained > > herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than > > the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email > > immediately and delete it! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > ------=_Part_17889_33048123.1160084656897 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Margaret,

dBm units could also be used. This message element, and the TX Power
Level use mW, the TX Power Level to correspond with the 802.11 MIB definitions, which use mW units.

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, Margaret Wasserman <margaret@thingmagic.com> wrote:

Hi All,

This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power level
will actually be set in dBm.  If that is true, why not use dBm (or
centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)?

Margaret

On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote:

> All,
>
> The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the
> commenters suggestion, change
>
>
>    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> output power in mW."
>    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> output power in 0.1mW."
>
>
> Comments welcome,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dorothy
>
> On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com> wrote: Section
> 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change
>
>    From "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> output power in mW."
>    to   "Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit
> output power in 0.1mW."
>
> The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between
> dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap
> transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding
> dbm.
>
>   For example
>          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 1mw
>          2 dbm<----->1.6mw  ----> 2mw
>          3 dbm<----->2.0mw  ----> 2mw
>
>   This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is
> 2dbm or 3 dbm.
>
> The following is suggestion:
>   For example
>          1 dbm<----->1.3mw  ----> 13mw
>          2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw  ----> 16mw
>          3 dbm<-----> 2.0mw  ----> 20mw
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>
> >   The Tx power message element value is bi-directional.  When
> sent by
> >   the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in
> >   question.  When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the
> WTP
> >   MUST adhere to.
> >
> >        0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 9 0 1
> >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +-+-+
> >       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Tx
> Power       |
> >       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +-+-+
> >
> >   Type:  1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
> >
> >   Length:  4
> >
> >   Radio ID:  An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure.
> >
> >   Reserved:  MUST be set to zero
> >
> >   Current Tx Power:  This attribute contains the transmit output
> power
> >      in mW.
>
> This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from
> HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose
> address is listed above. Any use of the information contained
> herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial
> disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than
> the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail
> in error, please notify the sender by phone or email
> immediately and delete it!
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap


------=_Part_17889_33048123.1160084656897-- --===============0686509956== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0686509956==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 17:56:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVbCa-0000Lf-6x for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:56:24 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVbCY-0006X8-CI for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:56:24 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC0B144803E for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0BA4300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084671448047 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277881448059 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so950504nfb for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.41.18 with SMTP id t18mr4575954nfj; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610051453s6789c214s406f179e27387425@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:53:58 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "Behcet Sarikaya" In-Reply-To: <20061005205629.7731.qmail@web60325.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20061005205629.7731.qmail@web60325.mail.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0811558441==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 827a2a57ca7ab0837847220f447e8d56 --===============0811558441== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18045_3407670.1160085238354" ------=_Part_18045_3407670.1160085238354 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Behcet, My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that text be added into the security considerations section. - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0. Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to understand? The most we can say with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation is free to comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value. Dorothy On 10/5/06, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > > I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a possibility. As far > as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interoperable but not correct. > If we allow implementations to snif in and modify then any value should be > acceptable which may be a concern for interoperability? > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Scott G. Kelly > To: capwap > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > Following up once again - after careful review, I still agree with > Charles, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations: > > 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security > > When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the > CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities. Derived > session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in > many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD discourage the use > of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions > such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. > > When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol > may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link > security > (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or > the AC. > When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security > concerns are introduced. > > However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will > exist when the following conditions are true: > > o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID > (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists > > o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK > > Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) > associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the > 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not > known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK. > The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC > upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this, > > previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the > existing > GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid. > > Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast > frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such > replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected > that > replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. > > The only way to completely close this window is to provide the > exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any > other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given > the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity > introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That > is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard. > ==> > However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value before > forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake. > > --behcet > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > ------=_Part_18045_3407670.1160085238354 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Behcet,

My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that
 text be added into the security considerations section.
- no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC
- no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0.

Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide
the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to understand? The most we can say
with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation is free to comes up with its own algorithm to
set the keyRSC value. 

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com> wrote:
I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a possibility. As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interoperable but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in and modify then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for interoperability?

----- Original Message ----
From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com>
To: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations

Following up once again - after careful review, I still agree with Charles, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations:

13.5.  IEEE 802.11 Security

    When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP encryption, the
   CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities.  Derived
   session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in
   many well-documented attacks.  Implementors SHOULD discourage the use
   of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic solutions
   such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN.

   When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol
   may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link security
  (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the WTP or the AC.
   When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new security
   concerns are introduced.

   However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability will
   exist when the following conditions are true:

    o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID
        (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists

        o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK

   Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC)
   associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the
   4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not
   known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK.
   The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC
   upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to this,
   previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the existing
   GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as valid.

   Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast
   frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such
   replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is expected that
   replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP.

   The only way to completely close this window is to provide the
   exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any
   other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given
   the low relative threat level this presents, the additional complexity
   introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. That
   is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard.
==>
However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake.

--behcet

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------=_Part_18045_3407670.1160085238354-- --===============0811558441== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0811558441==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 18:06:51 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVbMh-000821-Qu for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 18:06:51 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVbMc-0008SP-5t for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 18:06:51 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77BE51448068 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF6C4300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942781448058 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccerelbas04.cce.hp.com (ccerelbas04.cce.hp.com [161.114.21.107]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D3A144804E for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cceexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (cceexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.81.1.38]) by ccerelbas04.cce.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B8A343A3; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:05:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from G3W0072.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.232.1.11]) by cceexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:05:15 -0500 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:05:14 -0500 Message-ID: <08CA2245AFCF444DB3AC415E47CC40AF276EC2@G3W0072.americas.hpqcorp.net> In-Reply-To: <638DF8C4-F0F1-436E-A383-E07F33D59D0B@lilacglade.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion Thread-Index: AcbdY6oGQj2Ivpl7Rn2dikL2XscVAwLZnA+Q From: "Chiu, Ran-Fun" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2006 22:05:15.0611 (UTC) FILETIME=[56555AB0:01C6E8CA] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2beba50d0fcdeee5f091c59f204d4365 We prefer the two-port solution. Ran-Fun Chiu HP Labs > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:mrw@lilacglade.org] > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:50 AM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion > > > Hi All, > > As many of you know, we have had a technical issue open in the CAPWAP > WG for some time that is commonly referred to as the 2-port/mux > issue. This issue involves a technical choice between: > > - A solution that uses two different well-known UDP ports for > separate data and control communications (the 2-port solution), > > OR > > - A solution that uses a single well-known UDP port for all > communication, with control and data traffic distinguished by a > CAPWAP header value (the mux solution). > > Strong opinions have been expressed on both sides of this issue, and > the WG has had trouble coming to consensus on a single choice. > Discussions in this area have included a wide variety of networking > topics, such as Quality of Service, NAT Traversal and Mobility. > > Given the breadth of the technical issues under discussion, our Area > Director, Dan Romascanu, decided to solicit advice from the IESG to > help us understand the technical trade-offs, and to help us > understand which factors it would be reasonable to consider in our > working group decision -- specifically whether or not it was > reasonable for us to consider the hardware implications of this > decision. The only IESG members who showed up for the discussion > were Mark Townsley, one of the Internet ADs, and our two OPS ADs, Dan > and David Kessens. We didn't receive a definitive answer from the > IESG, but a clear message was received from Mark Townsley that it is > reasonable for the group to consider the hardware implications of our > work -- both compatibility with currently deployed hardware, and the > hardware architectures we might want to support in the future. > > After much discussion with the interested IESG members, the document > editors, the proponents of both solutions and some people who have > proposed compromise solutions, the chairs believe that the key > technical difference between these two proposals is which hardware > architecture(s) they will support. There are currently two different > classes of AC hardware deployed, and variants on both of these > architectures may be deployed in the future: > > - Single-Processor: In this architecture, the control plane and the > data plane run on a single processor. The demultiplexing of control > and data packets happens on that processor. > > - Separate Data & Control Planes: In this architecture, the data and > control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate > cards), typically connected via a switching fabric. This is a common > hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware, > and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to > separate the control and data traffic. For CAPWAP to work > efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the > control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is > typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP > addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port numbers. The > switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection > required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields. > > The 2-port approach supports both the "Single-Processor" AC > architecture and the "Separate Data & Control Planes" AC > architecture. Proponents of this solution believe that it is > important to support the "Separate Data & Control Planes" > architecture efficiently, both for compatibility with currently > deployed hardware and to allow this hardware architecture to be used > for future CAPWAP-enabled products. > > The mux approach will only operate efficiently on "Single-Processor" > systems. as it relies on the ability to demultiplex the control and > data traffic using CAPWAP header information. Proponents of this > solution believe that it will simplify CAPWAP software > implementation, and that it makes NAT traversal (when the AC and the > WTPs are on different sides of a NAT) simpler to configure. > > This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN > data traffic to the AC. In split-MAC local-forwarding mode, only the > control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane > forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves. > > We've heard from a couple of strong voices on this issue. but now > we'd like to hear from the rest of the WG... > > Which hardware architecture(s) does the CAPWAP protocol needs to > support? > > Specifically, do you think that it should be a requirement to > support efficient operation on currently deployed and future ACs that > follow the "Separate Control & Data Planes" architecture described > above? Or do you think that it would be acceptable to produce a > somewhat cleaner and simpler protocol that will not work efficiently > on those ACs? > > Please send your response by Thursday, October 5th (two weeks from > today), so that the chairs can gauge the consensus of the WG in this > matter. > > After we have an understanding of which hardware architecture(s) the > CAPWAP protocol needs to support, we will make an effort to sort > through the various proposals and counter-proposals that meet that > requirement. > > Thanks, > > The CAPWAP Chairs > Dorothy Gellert, Mahalingam Mani & Margaret Wasserman > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 18:51:38 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVc42-0007im-9a for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 18:51:38 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVbzb-0002F7-KV for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 18:47:06 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02AD21448040 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1454300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB19144803D for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.191]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05868144801F for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so960190nfb for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.29.3 with SMTP id g3mr4629197nfj; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610051539j6174a13fv3f54f78d11b3a4a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:39:41 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "Partha Narasimhan" In-Reply-To: <99C8B9B2AD99664A87E12C839A2E9093F1652B@aruba-mx1.arubanetworks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <26298393.1159465449346.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <92EA30D4-8C07-4FC3-A2CB-4EED0CEDEEBB@thingmagic.com> <99C8B9B2AD99664A87E12C839A2E9093F1652B@aruba-mx1.arubanetworks.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: * Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1170446500==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 1ba0ec39a747b7612d6a8ae66d1a873c --===============1170446500== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18529_16241823.1160087981778" ------=_Part_18529_16241823.1160087981778 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All, Summary: In one current (and potentially future) AC product implementation(s), packets are initially received by component hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. These implementations cannot efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic within a single port. In some 5 known current (and potentially future) AC product implementations, packets are initially received by a component (such as a NPU or a CPU) that can efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. These implementations can also distinguish between control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. Questions: a) Should the CAPWAP protocol include support for a single port mode? Answer: Yes. to enable capable product implementations to take advantage of the simplicity, reduced complexity and NAT traversal benefits of single port mode operation. b) Should the CAPWAP protocol include a means to enable its efficient implementation on UDP-port-only product implementations? Answer: Desired, not required as support, though not efficient, of a single port mode seems to be available.. It is very disappointing to see the the time and energy of the WG so wantonly wasted in pursuit of non-existent issues surrounding this topic. Dorothy On 10/5/06, Partha Narasimhan wrote: > > My two cents below, FWIW. > > - Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded to > support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the limits > of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life. > > - In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the two-port > solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution > imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the > cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the > single-port mux solution. > > - The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear, > except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on some > other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current > protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies of > implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for > CAPWAP crept into people's minds. > > - Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also > lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of > implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors can > bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability testing > and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for > CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the argument > that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to fit > older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely > deployed. > > Thanks > partha > > PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were > detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder what > is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM > To: Scott G. Kelly > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion > > > Hi Scott, > > I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are > responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP chairs. Although I > drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and > Dorothy. > > This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine. > The other chairs may not agree. > > On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote: > >> - Single-Processor: In this architecture, the control plane and the > >> data plane run on a single processor. The demultiplexing of control > >> and data packets happens on that processor. > >> > >> - Separate Data & Control Planes: In this architecture, the > >> data and > >> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate > >> cards), typically connected via a switching fabric. This is > >> a common > >> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware, > >> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to > >> separate the control and data traffic. For CAPWAP to work > >> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the > >> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is > >> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP > >> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port > >> numbers. The > >> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection > >> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields. > > > > This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have > > nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to do > > with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching > > facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. This > > is a critical distinction. > > I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was > very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not > think that your correction fundamentally changes the situation. It > would have been better if we had characterized these systems based on > how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of > processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there > are two type of systems: > > (1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component (such > as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data > traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. There may be additional > processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase "single- > processor" to describe these systems was not correct. > > AND > > (2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching > hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and > data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. > > There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to > each architecture. > > > Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is > > also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either of > > the architectures, and in particular, in either of the > > architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem > > appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit > > the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions. > > I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one > vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching > incoming traffic. I am not currently aware of whether these systems > are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be > software upgraded to serve in that role. Given the widespread > deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that > it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software > upgrade, to systems of this type. > > I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, but > my opinion on that subject is immaterial. Both systems are widely > deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of > CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures. > > >> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN > >> data traffic to the AC. In split-MAC local-forwarding mode, > >> only the > >> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane > >> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves. > > > > This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined > > split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to > > handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when > > you're doing local bridging of the data). > > Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of > this text. > > > In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to speak > > up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about this, > > and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we > > choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened > > here, and go into this eyes wide open. > > Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep > this work moving forward. > > Margaret > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > ------=_Part_18529_16241823.1160087981778 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

All,

Summary:

In one current (and potentially future) AC product implementation(s), packets are initially received by component
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. These implementations
cannot efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic within a single port.

In some  5 known current (and potentially future) AC product implementations, packets are initially received by a component (such
as a NPU or a CPU) that can efficiently distinguish between control and data
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. These implementations can also distinguish between
control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.

Questions:

a)       Should the CAPWAP protocol include support for a single port mode?

Answer: Yes. to enable capable product implementations to take advantage of the simplicity, reduced
complexity and  NAT traversal benefits of single port mode operation.

b)       Should the CAPWAP protocol include a means to enable its efficient implementation on UDP-port-only
product implementations?

Answer: Desired, not required as support, though not efficient, of a single port mode seems to be available..

      It is very disappointing to see the the time and energy of the WG so wantonly wasted in pursuit of non-existent
issues surrounding this topic.

Dorothy



On 10/5/06, Partha Narasimhan <partha@arubanetworks.com> wrote:
My two cents below, FWIW.

- Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded to
support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the limits
of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life.

- In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the two-port
solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution
imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the
cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the
single-port mux solution.

- The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear,
except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on some
other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current
protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies of
implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for
CAPWAP crept into people's minds.

- Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also
lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of
implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors can
bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability testing
and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for
CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the argument
that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to fit
older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely
deployed.

Thanks
partha

PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were
detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder what
is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG.



-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM
To: Scott G. Kelly
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion


Hi Scott,

I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are
responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP chairs.  Although I
drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and
Dorothy.

This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine.
The other chairs may not agree.

On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote:
>> - Single-Processor:  In this architecture, the control plane and the
>> data plane run on a single processor.  The demultiplexing of control
>> and data packets happens on that processor.
>>
>> - Separate Data & Control Planes:  In this architecture, the
>> data and
>> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate
>> cards), typically connected via a switching fabric.  This is
>> a common
>> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware,
>> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to
>> separate the control and data traffic.  For CAPWAP to work
>> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the
>> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is
>> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP
>> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port
>> numbers.  The
>> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection
>> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.
>
> This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have
> nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to do
> with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching
> facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. This
> is a critical distinction.

I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was
very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not
think that your correction fundamentally changes the situation.  It
would have been better if we had characterized these systems based on
how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of
processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there
are two type of systems:

(1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component (such
as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers.  There may be additional
processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase "single-
processor" to describe these systems was not correct.

AND

(2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.

There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to
each architecture.

> Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is
> also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either of
> the architectures, and in particular, in either of the
> architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem
> appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit
> the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions.

I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one
vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching
incoming traffic.  I am not currently aware of whether these systems
are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be
software upgraded to serve in that role.  Given the widespread
deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that
it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software
upgrade, to systems of this type.

I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, but
my opinion on that subject is immaterial.  Both systems are widely
deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of
CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures.

>> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN
>> data traffic to the AC.  In split-MAC local-forwarding mode,
>> only the
>> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane
>> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.
>
> This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined
> split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to
> handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when
> you're doing local bridging of the data).

Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of
this text.

> In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to speak
> up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about this,
> and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we
> choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened
> here, and go into this eyes wide open.

Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep
this work moving forward.

Margaret

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------=_Part_18529_16241823.1160087981778-- --===============1170446500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1170446500==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 19:17:05 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVcSf-0005LC-V7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:17:05 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVcEl-0006WS-Ew for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:02:47 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C2739806C for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD404300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0557239804D for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:01:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 14 days 14:14:31 ago Received: from thingmagic.com (unknown [204.9.221.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACF9398011 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.5]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1354213; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:01:34 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5bfe7a820610051444k6e26ca39q417afa6f7cb86f51@mail.gmail.com> References: <5bfe7a820610050934k245312ebrdf168d059d938084@mail.gmail.com> <82E78D5D-C43D-4FFF-91A1-708918E5DBAB@thingmagic.com> <5bfe7a820610051444k6e26ca39q417afa6f7cb86f51@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Message-Id: <6F733085-441E-4F92-91B8-78A892C380B3@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:59:40 -0400 To: Dorothy Stanley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.05 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue, please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7da5a831c477fb6ef97f379a05fb683c Hi Dorothy, If the MIB uses mW, then I agree it is better to use mW-related units for compatibility. Thanks, Margaret On Oct 5, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote: > Margaret, > > dBm units could also be used. This message element, and the TX Power > Level use mW, the TX Power Level to correspond with the 802.11 MIB > definitions, which use mW units. > > Dorothy > > On 10/5/06, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > Hi All, > > This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power level > will actually be set in dBm. If that is true, why not use dBm (or > centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)? > > Margaret > > On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote: > > > All, > > > > The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the > > commenters suggestion, change > > > > > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in mW." > > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in 0.1mW." > > > > > > Comments welcome, > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dorothy > > > > On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 wrote: Section > > 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change > > > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in mW." > > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in 0.1mW." > > > > The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion between > > dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap > > transimit one mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding > > dbm. > > > > For example > > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 1mw > > 2 dbm<----->1.6mw ----> 2mw > > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 2mw > > > > This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know it is > > 2dbm or 3 dbm. > > > > The following is suggestion: > > For example > > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 13mw > > 2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw ----> 16mw > > 3 dbm<-----> 2.0mw ----> 20mw > > > > Thanks > > Michael > > > > > The Tx power message element value is bi-directional. When > > sent by > > > the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in > > > question. When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the > > WTP > > > MUST adhere to. > > > > > > 0 1 > 2 3 > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > > 9 0 1 > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > > +-+-+ > > > | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Tx > > Power | > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > > +-+-+ > > > > > > Type: 1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power > > > > > > Length: 4 > > > > > > Radio ID: An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure. > > > > > > Reserved: MUST be set to zero > > > > > > Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output > > power > > > in mW. > > > > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from > > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose > > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained > > herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than > > the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email > > immediately and delete it! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 19:43:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVcs8-0002wS-AQ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:43:24 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVcs1-0003ik-QA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:43:24 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F8239806C for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DD74300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734DD144803D for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccerelbas04.cce.hp.com (ccerelbas04.cce.hp.com [161.114.21.107]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0D1144803E for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cceexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (cceexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.81.1.38]) by ccerelbas04.cce.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F5F342B8; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:41:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from G3W0072.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.232.1.11]) by cceexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:40:44 -0500 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:40:43 -0500 Message-ID: <08CA2245AFCF444DB3AC415E47CC40AF276F63@G3W0072.americas.hpqcorp.net> In-Reply-To: <5bfe7a820610051539j6174a13fv3f54f78d11b3a4a4@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion Thread-Index: Acbo0D310qY4MjLBRWuTN7ybgtNMLgAA7oXQ From: "Chiu, Ran-Fun" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Partha Narasimhan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2006 23:40:44.0292 (UTC) FILETIME=[ACE4B440:01C6E8D7] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0573191291==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a83e8b750067501be8b56bf02fb6582d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0573191291== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6E8D7.ACB88B1F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E8D7.ACB88B1F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is this the consensus? Or, we are still looking for a consensus? The current draft has a two-port UDP solution, but does not specify how to handle Discovery (or, I missed something). Do we need a third port? We support the two-port solution if the Discovery issue is resolved. We also can agree to a one-port solution. The WG has to make a decision. =20 Ran-Fun Chiu =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 3:40 PM To: Partha Narasimhan Cc: Margaret Wasserman; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion =20 All, Summary:=20 In one current (and potentially future) AC product implementation(s), packets are initially received by component hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. These implementations cannot efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic within a single port. In some 5 known current (and potentially future) AC product implementations, packets are initially received by a component (such as a NPU or a CPU) that can efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. These implementations can also distinguish between control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. Questions: a) Should the CAPWAP protocol include support for a single port mode?=20 Answer: Yes. to enable capable product implementations to take advantage of the simplicity, reduced=20 complexity and NAT traversal benefits of single port mode operation. b) Should the CAPWAP protocol include a means to enable its efficient implementation on UDP-port-only product implementations? Answer: Desired, not required as support, though not efficient, of a single port mode seems to be available.. It is very disappointing to see the the time and energy of the WG so wantonly wasted in pursuit of non-existent=20 issues surrounding this topic. Dorothy On 10/5/06, Partha Narasimhan wrote: My two cents below, FWIW. - Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded to support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the limits of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life.=20 - In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the two-port solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the=20 single-port mux solution. - The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear, except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on some other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current=20 protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies of implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for CAPWAP crept into people's minds. - Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also=20 lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors can bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability testing and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for=20 CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the argument that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to fit older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely=20 deployed. Thanks partha PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder what is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM To: Scott G. Kelly Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion Hi Scott, I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP chairs. Although I=20 drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and Dorothy. This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine. The other chairs may not agree. On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote:=20 >> - Single-Processor: In this architecture, the control plane and the >> data plane run on a single processor. The demultiplexing of control >> and data packets happens on that processor. >> >> - Separate Data & Control Planes: In this architecture, the >> data and >> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on separate >> cards), typically connected via a switching fabric. This is=20 >> a common >> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching hardware, >> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to >> separate the control and data traffic. For CAPWAP to work=20 >> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the >> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is >> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP=20 >> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port >> numbers. The >> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet inspection >> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.=20 > > This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have > nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to do > with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching=20 > facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. This > is a critical distinction. I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not=20 think that your correction fundamentally changes the situation. It would have been better if we had characterized these systems based on how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there=20 are two type of systems: (1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component (such as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. There may be additional=20 processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase "single- processor" to describe these systems was not correct. AND (2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and=20 data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to each architecture. > Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is=20 > also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either of > the architectures, and in particular, in either of the > architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem > appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit=20 > the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions. I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching incoming traffic. I am not currently aware of whether these systems=20 are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be software upgraded to serve in that role. Given the widespread deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software=20 upgrade, to systems of this type. I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, but my opinion on that subject is immaterial. Both systems are widely deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of=20 CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures. >> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all WLAN >> data traffic to the AC. In split-MAC local-forwarding mode, >> only the=20 >> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data plane >> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves. > > This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined=20 > split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to > handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when > you're doing local bridging of the data). Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of=20 this text. > In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to speak > up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about this, > and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we=20 > choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened > here, and go into this eyes wide open. Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep this work moving forward.=20 Margaret _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________=20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E8D7.ACB88B1F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is this the consensus? Or, we are = still looking for a consensus? The current draft has a two-port UDP solution, = but does not specify how to handle Discovery (or, I missed something). Do we = need a third port?  We support the two-port solution if the Discovery = issue is resolved. We also can agree to a one-port solution. The WG has to make a decision.

 

Ran-Fun Chiu

 


From: = Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October = 05, 2006 3:40 PM
To: Partha Narasimhan
Cc: Margaret Wasserman; = capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] = 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion

 

All,

Summary:

In one current (and potentially future) AC product = implementation(s), packets are initially received by component
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports. These implementations
cannot efficiently distinguish between control and data traffic within a = single port.

In some  5 known current (and potentially future) AC = product implementations, packets are initially received by a component (such
as a NPU or a CPU) that can efficiently distinguish between control and = data
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers. These implementations can also distinguish between
control and data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP = ports.

Questions:

a)       Should the CAPWAP = protocol include support for a single port mode?

Answer: Yes. to enable capable product implementations to take advantage of the simplicity, reduced
complexity and  NAT traversal benefits of single port mode = operation.

b)       Should the CAPWAP = protocol include a means to enable its efficient implementation on = UDP-port-only
product implementations?

Answer: Desired, not required as support, though not efficient, of a single port = mode seems to be available..

      It is very disappointing to see the the time and energy of the WG so = wantonly wasted in pursuit of non-existent
issues surrounding this topic.

Dorothy


On 10/5/06, Partha Narasimhan <partha@arubanetworks.com>= wrote:

My two cents below, FWIW.

- Assuming that most currently deployed L2 switches can be upgraded = to
support CAPWAP merely with a software upgrade is well beyond the = limits
of what I would normally assume in a typical day in my life.

- In all of the debate, I haven't seen the proponents of the = two-port
solution acknowledge significant additional complexity this solution
imposes on the entire protocol. Overall, it increases the
cost/complexity of implementation and/or trouble-shooting over the
single-port mux solution.

- The single-port mux solution can be made to work on existing gear,
except it may or may not be as efficient as an implementation on = some
other gear that is more recent or being designed now. The current
protocol design work should not be influenced by the inefficiencies = of
implementing it in gear that was designed well before the need for
CAPWAP crept into people's minds.

- Choosing a more complicated solution over a simpler one would also =
lead to the protocol not getting deployed because of the cost of
implementing it. I am especially concerned whether the WTP vendors = can
bear the increased cost of implementation and interoperability = testing
and whether this will influence their decisions to drop support for
CAPWAP in their gear. This is the other side of the coin to the = argument
that designing the protocol, albeit with a more complex solution, to = fit
older implementations would increase the chance of it being widely
deployed.

Thanks
partha

PS: While debating this issue, we went through what we now know were
detours along non-existent routing and QoS issues. Makes one wonder = what
is really behind every long and drawn-out discussion in this WG.



-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:24 PM
To: Scott G. Kelly
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion


Hi Scott,

I'd just like to state, for clarity, that the message you are
responding to came from all three of the CAPWAP = chairs.  Although I
drafted and sent the message, it did reflect input from Mani and
Dorothy.

This response is just from me, and the opinions expressed are mine.
The other chairs may not agree.

On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Scott G. Kelly wrote:
>> - Single-Processor:  In this architecture, the = control plane and the
>> data plane run on a single processor.  The = demultiplexing of control
>> and data packets happens on that processor.
>>
>> - Separate Data & Control Planes:  In this = architecture, the
>> data and
>> control planes run on separate processors (and possibly on = separate
>> cards), typically connected via a switching = fabric.  This is
>> a common
>> hardware architecture for higher-end routing and switching = hardware,
>> and it relies on a port-based splitting/load-balancing approach = to
>> separate the control and data traffic.  For CAPWAP to = work
>> efficiently on these systems, it must be possible to = distinguish the
>> control and data traffic in the switching hardware, which = is
>> typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv = IP
>> addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port
>> numbers.  The
>> switching hardware cannot do the type of deep packet = inspection
>> required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields.
>
> This is one of the mischaracterizations I see. The issues have
> nothing to do with how many processors there are - they have to = do
> with separation of control and data planes, and with the switching =
> facility used to distribute packets between these two planes. = This
> is a critical distinction.

I agree with you comment, and your private note on this subject was
very helpful to advance my thinking on this matter. However, I do not =
think that your correction fundamentally changes the = situation.  It
would have been better if we had characterized these systems based = on
how received packets are handled, rather than based on the number of
processors in the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there =
are two type of systems:

(1) Those where the packet is initially received by a component = (such
as a NPU or a CPU) that can distinguish between control and data
traffic by looking at the CAPWAP headers.  There may be = additional
processors on this type of systems, so using the phrase = "single-
processor" to describe these systems was not correct.

AND

(2) Those where the packet is initially received by switching
hardware that can only efficiently distinguish between control and
data traffic using a five-tuple that includes the UDP ports.

There are both high- and low-performance systems that correspond to
each architecture.

> Based on the clarification above, it should be clear that this is =
> also a mischaracterization. Either approach will work in either = of
> the architectures, and in particular, in either of the
> architectures _as they are deployed today_. The real problem
> appears to be that one vendor has made a conscious choice to limit =
> the control/data switching facility to 5-tuple-based solutions.

I am personally aware of switching equipment from more than one
vendor that is restricted to using a five-tuple for switching
incoming traffic.  I am not currently aware of whether these = systems
are sold as WLAN switches, but I believe that many of them could be
software upgraded to serve in that role.  Given the = widespread
deployment of switches that employ this architecture, I believe that
it is desirable to make sure that CAPWAP can be added, as a software =
upgrade, to systems of this type.

I could express some opinions about which architecture is better, = but
my opinion on that subject is immaterial.  Both systems are = widely
deployed, and I think that we are likely to see wider deployment of
CAPWAP if it can work well on both architectures.

>> This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all = WLAN
>> data traffic to the AC.  In split-MAC = local-forwarding mode,
>> only the
>> control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, and data = plane
>> forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves.
>
> This also seems mischaracterized, because in all currently defined =
> split-MAC modes, a data channel must be established in order to
> handle 802.11 management and authentication frames (even when
> you're doing local bridging of the data).

Perhaps Mani could respond to this point, as he was the originator of =
this text.

> In any event, Margaret is right: the working group needs to = speak
> up so we can close this and move on. I'm done arguing about = this,
> and life will go on one way or another regardless of what we
> choose. But at least, we should all be clear on what's happened
> here, and go into this eyes wide open.

Thanks for your comments, and for your continuing efforts to keep
this work moving forward.

Margaret

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E8D7.ACB88B1F-- --===============0573191291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0573191291==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 19:59:05 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVd7J-0003QJ-5j for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:59:05 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVd7H-000109-LZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:59:05 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFDA1448068 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E364300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E94C1448039 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C35144803E for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-8.cisco.com ([171.68.10.93]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Oct 2006 16:57:58 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,267,1157353200"; d="scan'208"; a="328591494:sNHT34547168" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-8.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k95NvvaT015679; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:57:57 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k95NvjOf023031; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:57:46 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:57:45 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8258@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 - Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames Thread-Index: Acbe/8Ps7vRlB2fCRnaEaZdadJkT/gJ2jtQg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "zhaoyujin 31390" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2006 23:57:46.0245 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E065B50:01C6E8DA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-8.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 - Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Second, 802.1X packet may be encrypted, if the AC supports 802.11i encryption. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: zhaoyujin 31390 [mailto:zhaoyujin@huawei.com] > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 2:12 AM > To: Michael Montemurro > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution > to Issue 214 - Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames > > Firstly, I have some doubt one this suggestion. > > 1. If CAPWAP difines like this, AP device must decode the > payload frames of 802.11 frames. > 2. Another problem, the 802.1x priority should be implement > by 802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data frames, it can set > 802.11e priority. AP should transfer 802.11e to actual CAPWAP > packet priority. > > So that I think CAPWAP does not need consider the priority of > 802.11 data frames payload. > > Thanks > Michael > > > > >Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be > transmitted at the same priority as >IEEE 802.11 Management frames. > > > >I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of Service for > IEEE 802.11 > >Control Messages >to "Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 > control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text > to >indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher priority. > > > >Cheers, > > > >Mike > > > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity > whose address is listed above. Any use of the information > contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, > total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) > by persons other than the intended recipient's) is > prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please > notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 21:34:33 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVeb8-0003wK-DS for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 21:33:58 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVeTI-000332-6n for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 21:25:56 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD541448062 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB164300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8AE144805D for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc14.comcast.net (alnrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.225.94]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8157E1448054 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (c-68-49-199-146.hsd1.md.comcast.net[68.49.199.146]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc14) with ESMTP id <20061006012339b1400jd959e>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 01:23:39 +0000 Message-ID: <4525B01B.70101@cs.umd.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 21:23:39 -0400 From: Charles Clancy User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dorothy Stanley References: <20061005205629.7731.qmail@web60325.mail.yahoo.com> <5bfe7a820610051453s6789c214s406f179e27387425@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5bfe7a820610051453s6789c214s406f179e27387425@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6ffdee8af20de249c24731d8414917d3 We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the appropriate section. That would be in addition to the changes to the security considerations. Without specifying a default value, we could have interoperability issues between WTPs and ACs. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy Dorothy Stanley wrote: > Behcet, > > My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that > text be added into the security considerations section. > - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC > - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0. > > Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide > the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to understand? > The most we can say > with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation is free to > comes up with its own algorithm to > set the keyRSC value. > > Dorothy > > On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* > wrote: > > I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a possibility. > As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is interoperable > but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in and modify > then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for > interoperability? > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com > > > To: capwap > > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > Following up once again - after careful review, I still agree with > Charles, and here's some suggested text for the security considerations: > > 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security > > When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP > encryption, the > CAPWAP protocol does not add any new vulnerabilities. Derived > session keys between the STA and WTP can be compromised, resulting in > many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD discourage the use > of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic > solutions > such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. > > When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol > may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on whether the link > security > (packet encryption and integrity verification) is provided by the > WTP or the AC. > When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new > security > concerns are introduced. > > However, when the WTP provides link security, a new vulnerability > will > exist when the following conditions are true: > > o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID > (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already exists > > o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK > > Under these circumstances, the receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) > associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the AC anchors the > 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of the KeyRSC is not > known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK. > The client will update its Key RSC value to the current valid KeyRSC > upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, but prior to > this, > previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was secured with the > existing > GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this traffic as > valid. > > Typically, busy networks will produce numerous multicast or broadcast > frames per second, so the window of opportunity with respect to such > replay is expected to be very small. In most conditions, it is > expected that > replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. > > The only way to completely close this window is to provide the > exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any > other approach simply narrows the window to varying degrees. Given > the low relative threat level this presents, the additional > complexity > introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is not warranted. > That > is, this specification provides for a calculated risk in this regard. > ==> > However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value > before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake. > > --behcet > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 05 23:55:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVgoJ-0002kQ-D7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 23:55:43 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVghl-0001Pt-3S for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 23:48:59 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9901448062 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 20:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104144300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 20:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1916398040 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 20:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9FA398016 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 20:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/kings) with ESMTP id k963kdHV003352; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 12:46:39 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id k963kfI05197; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 12:46:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/indians) with ESMTP id k963ke510393; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 12:46:40 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:45:37 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD01365FF5@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: Acbo5i4byALsl6JxQDuyct94MfDlVQABuubQ From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Charles Clancy" , "Dorothy Stanley" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.424 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a8041eca2a724d631b098c15e9048ce9 Hi Charles and all, To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". Otherwise, it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means the STA is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the next 50 seqeunce count. So, I think we need some clarification on what is the decision here. Is the decision now: - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers. And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always. Or, We also allow: - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a simple element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC choose not to support such mechanism, it will have to set the KeyRSC to zero. And a security disclaimer to state what is the effect of setting the KeyRSC to zero. cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM > To: Dorothy Stanley > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the > appropriate section. That would be in addition to the > changes to the security considerations. Without specifying a > default value, we could have interoperability issues between > WTPs and ACs. > > -- > t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > Dorothy Stanley wrote: > > Behcet, > > > > My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that text be added > > into the security considerations section. > > - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC > > - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0. > > > > Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide > > the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to > understand? > > The most we can say > > with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation > is free to > > comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value. > > > > Dorothy > > > > On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* > > wrote: > > > > I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a > possibility. > > As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is > interoperable > > but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in > and modify > > then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for > > interoperability? > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com > > > > > To: capwap > > > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > Considerations > > > > Following up once again - after careful review, I still > agree with > > Charles, and here's some suggested text for the > security considerations: > > > > 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security > > > > When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP > > encryption, the > > CAPWAP protocol does not add any new > vulnerabilities. Derived > > session keys between the STA and WTP can be > compromised, resulting in > > many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD > discourage the use > > of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic > > solutions > > such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. > > > > When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol > > may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on > whether the link > > security > > (packet encryption and integrity verification) is > provided by the > > WTP or the AC. > > When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new > > security > > concerns are introduced. > > > > However, when the WTP provides link security, a new > vulnerability > > will > > exist when the following conditions are true: > > > > o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID > > (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already > > exists > > > > o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK > > > > Under these circumstances, the receive sequence > counter (KeyRSC) > > associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the > AC anchors the > > 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of > the KeyRSC is not > > known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK. > > The client will update its Key RSC value to the > current valid KeyRSC > > upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, > but prior to > > this, > > previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was > secured with the > > existing > > GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this > traffic as > > valid. > > > > Typically, busy networks will produce numerous > multicast or broadcast > > frames per second, so the window of opportunity with > respect to such > > replay is expected to be very small. In most > conditions, it is > > expected that > > replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. > > > > The only way to completely close this window is to > provide the > > exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any > > other approach simply narrows the window to varying > degrees. Given > > the low relative threat level this presents, the additional > > complexity > > introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is > not warranted. > > That > > is, this specification provides for a calculated > risk in this regard. > > ==> > > However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value > > before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake. > > > > --behcet > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 00:15:38 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVh7a-0006Ot-4U for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 00:15:38 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVh7Y-000073-7m for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 00:15:37 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A80398047 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 21:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC7B4300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 21:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348B6398046 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 21:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [12.129.211.51]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B97398016 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 21:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6P00ACM4YI82@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for capwap@frascone.com; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 21:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.188]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6P00E5W4YGBV@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for capwap@frascone.com; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 21:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.24.1.18] (Forwarded-For: [10.18.23.62]) by szxmc01-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:14:10 +0500 Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:14:10 +0500 From: zhaoyujin 31390 To: Dorothy Stanley Message-id: <2a1c96a2a2236e.2a2236e2a1c96a@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-language: zh-CN X-Accept-Language: zh-CN Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] =?gb2312?B?u9i4tA==?=:Re: Proposed Resolution to :One issue, please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1921393290==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff0adf256e4dd459cc25215cfa732ac1 --===============1921393290== Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline Hi Margaret =26 Dorothy=3A DBm can be used=2C but DBm units is not universal as mM=2E Because deff= erent device maybe defines different DBm level=2C CAPWAP is difficult to = track this difference=2E Regards Michael This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI=2C= which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed = above=2E Any use of the information contained herein in any way (includin= g=2C but not limited to=2C total or partial disclosure=2C reproduction=2C= or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient=27s) is p= rohibited=2E If you receive this e-mail in error=2C please notify the sen= der by phone or email = immediately and delete it! ----- =D4=AD=D3=CA=BC=FE ----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A Dorothy Stanley =3Cdstanley1389=40gmail=2Ecom=3E =C8=D5=C6=DA=3A =D0=C7=C6=DA=CE=E5=2C =CA=AE=D4=C2 6=C8=D5=2C 2006 =C9=CF= =CE=E73=3A14 =D6=F7=CC=E2=3A Re=3A =5BCapwap=5D Proposed Resolution to =3AOne issue=2C= please discuss=3A I suggest some change for =2211=2E9=2E18=2E IEEE 802=2E= 11 Tx Power=22 =3E Margaret=2C =3E = =3E dBm units could also be used=2E This message element=2C and the TX Po= wer =3E Level use mW=2C the TX Power Level to correspond with the 802=2E11 MI= B =3E definitions=2C which use mW units=2E =3E = =3E Dorothy =3E = =3E On 10/5/06=2C Margaret Wasserman =3Cmargaret=40thingmagic=2Ecom=3E wr= ote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Hi All=2C =3E =3E =3E =3E This request is based on the assumption that the WTP=27s power le= vel =3E =3E will actually be set in dBm=2E If that is true=2C why not use dB= m (or =3E =3E centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute=2C instead of mW (or 0=2E= 1 = =3E mW)=3F=3E =3E =3E Margaret =3E =3E =3E =3E On Oct 5=2C 2006=2C at 12=3A34 PM=2C Dorothy Stanley wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E All=2C =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The proposed resolution to the 11=2E9=2E18 comment is=3A Acce= pt the =3E =3E =3E commenters suggestion=2C change =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E From =22Current Tx Power=3A This attribute contains the t= ransmit =3E =3E =3E output power in mW=2E=22 =3E =3E =3E to =22Current Tx Power=3A This attribute contains the t= ransmit =3E =3E =3E output power in 0=2E1mW=2E=22 =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Comments welcome=2C =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Thanks=2C =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Dorothy =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On 9/25/06=2C zhaoyujin 31390 =3Czhaoyujin=40huawei=2Ecom=3E = wrote=3A Section =3E =3E =3E 11=2E9=2E18 has following discripiton=2C I suggestion some ch= ange =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E From =22Current Tx Power=3A This attribute contains the t= ransmit =3E =3E =3E output power in mW=2E=22 =3E =3E =3E to =22Current Tx Power=3A This attribute contains the t= ransmit =3E =3E =3E output power in 0=2E1mW=2E=22 =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The reason is=3A normally WLAN will use dbm=2E The conversion= between =3E =3E =3E dbm and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement=2E If capwap =3E =3E =3E transimit one mw value=2C the device can=27t precise get corr= esponding =3E =3E =3E dbm=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E For example =3E =3E =3E 1 dbm=3C-----=3E1=2E3mw ----=3E 1mw =3E =3E =3E 2 dbm=3C-----=3E1=2E6mw ----=3E 2mw =3E =3E =3E 3 dbm=3C-----=3E2=2E0mw ----=3E 2mw =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E This time=2C if capwap transmits 2 mw=2C system doesn=27t k= now it is =3E =3E =3E 2dbm or 3 dbm=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The following is suggestion=3A =3E =3E =3E For example =3E =3E =3E 1 dbm=3C-----=3E1=2E3mw ----=3E 13mw =3E =3E =3E 2 dbm=3C-----=3E 1=2E6mw ----=3E 16mw =3E =3E =3E 3 dbm=3C-----=3E2=2E0mw ----=3E 20mw =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Thanks =3E =3E =3E Michael =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The Tx power message element value is bi-directional=2E= When =3E =3E =3E sent by =3E =3E =3E =3E the WTP=2C it contains the current power level of the r= adio in =3E =3E =3E =3E question=2E When sent by the AC=2C it contains the pow= er = =3E level the =3E =3E =3E WTP =3E =3E =3E =3E MUST adhere to=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E 0 1 2 = = =3E 3 =3E =3E =3E =3E 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 = 5 6 = =3E 7 8 =3E =3E =3E 9 0 1 =3E =3E =3E =3E +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+- =3E +-+-+- =3E =3E =3E +-+-+ =3E =3E =3E =3E =7C Radio ID =7C Reserved =7C Curr= ent Tx =3E =3E =3E Power =7C =3E =3E =3E =3E +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+- =3E +-+-+- =3E =3E =3E +-+-+ =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Type=3A 1041 for IEEE 802=2E11 Tx Power =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Length=3A 4 =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Radio ID=3A An 8-bit value representing the radio to c= onfigure=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Reserved=3A MUST be set to zero =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Current Tx Power=3A This attribute contains the transm= it output =3E =3E =3E power =3E =3E =3E =3E in mW=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information = from =3E =3E =3E HUAWEI=2C which is intended only for the person or entity who= se =3E =3E =3E address is listed above=2E Any use of the information contain= ed =3E =3E =3E herein in any way (including=2C but not limited to=2C total o= r partial =3E =3E =3E disclosure=2C reproduction=2C or dissemination) by persons ot= her than =3E =3E =3E the intended recipient=27s) is prohibited=2E If you receive t= his e- =3E mail=3E =3E in error=2C please notify the sender by phone or email =3E =3E =3E immediately and delete it! =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F =3E =3E =3E To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options=2C please = visit=3A =3E =3E =3E http=3A//lists=2Efrascone=2Ecom/mailman/listinfo/capwap =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Archives=3A http=3A//lists=2Efrascone=2Ecom/pipermail/capwap =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F =3E =3E =3E To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options=2C please = visit=3A =3E =3E =3E http=3A//lists=2Efrascone=2Ecom/mailman/listinfo/capwap =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Archives=3A http=3A//lists=2Efrascone=2Ecom/pipermail/capwap =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E --===============1921393290== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1921393290==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 02:24:41 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVj8T-0000RQ-3x for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 02:24:41 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVj8N-0001iL-5f for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 02:24:41 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C03398045 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 23:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759EC4300F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 23:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54973398019 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 23:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei-3com.com (h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com [210.21.230.96]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF609398016 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 23:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei-3com.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6P00MVMBC61K@h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com> for capwap@frascone.com; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:28:54 +0800 (CST) Received: from smtp2.huawei-3com.com ([172.19.1.39]) by h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6P00LD1BC6QX@h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com> for capwap@frascone.com; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:28:54 +0800 (CST) Received: from unknown (HELO RichardYoung) ([10.18.23.88]) by smtp2.huawei-3com.com with ESMTP; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:22:44 +0800 Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:52:50 +0530 From: young To: dstanley1389@gmail.com, capwap@frascone.com Message-id: <001201c6e90f$d9f63390$5817120a@china.huawei.com> Organization: huawei MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcbpD9jOe9Qb+3ejR6SwwbeHHGk48Q== X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.374 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: young@huawei-3com.com List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69aba9e925a1047819f53b40fa4fc4e6 Hi, Dorothy: Thanks for your proposed resolutions. In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be common elements, it's not clear that the = CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements across wireless systems." If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time to make it clear. Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part scope is not clear? I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is very important for base part separation from wireless specific binding. I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204. 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment. I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section 4.4. While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding. We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information. = By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition. The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by IANA. No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a key Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding. I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue. 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power I suggest we could define a =93WTP Radio configuration=94 TLV. By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table. Channel also could be put here. As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its current Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in bi-direction. More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required. |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------ ---|---------| | Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx Power | Channel | |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------ -- |----------| = As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I suggest that =93WTP Radio configuration=94 is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information". Regards Richard (shiyang) From: Dorothy Stanley (dstanley1389gmail.com) = Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) = All, Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are = listed below. Comments please. Thanks, Dorothy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest the = following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless = technology binding. 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. 4 - = 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology specific radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information element as follows: IEEE 802.11 Radio Information The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate the radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP. The Discovery Request message MUST include one such message element per radio in the WTP. The Radio-Type field is used by the AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used with the WTP. The value contains two fields, as shown. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio ID | Radio Type | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio Type | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Type: 38 for WTP Radio Information Length: 5 Radio ID: The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an interface index on the WTP Radio Type: The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present. = The following values are supported: 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. 4 - = 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. 0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n: The 4 radio types indicated are supported in the WTP. =A0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx power are = common parameters for RF management. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Add "WTP radio channel" Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to AC) or to = configure channel (AC to AP). Now,. 11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct = Sequence Control has channel configuration information. = But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will provide more common parameter for any wireless technology. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Channel | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ The commenter suggests the following: 3)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 = The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding. I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent = during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better. If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by protocol. The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. = For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter and know current configuration on the WTP radio. If this way, current "11.9.18.=A0 IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.=A0 IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.=A0 = IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element. =A0Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft.=A0 While there may be common elements, it's not clear that the = CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements across wireless systems. = ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- 4) 11.9.24. IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common event for = any wireless technology. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to have additional information reported with the event however. Not sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- 5) 11.9.1. IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could achieve = abstract while make it work for most wireless technology. If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service, update wireless service" in the section = 4.4. Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding = section. The commenter suggests a solution: 1) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless = service", and put it in the section 4.4 The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep = Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). = While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding identifier. The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using ( Probably eventually managed by IANA) Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service. The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the = CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 6) 11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section = 4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of = Service". While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of = Service. The commenter suggests the following solution: 2) Rename "11.9.22.=A0 IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as =A0"WTP Quali= ty of Service" Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service". For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great. Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data. = The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the = CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear that there are enough elements common to multiple wireless services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude if desired. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ 7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as =A0"WTP Statistics" in the section = 4.4 Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" = could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count" and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies. However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions. On 9/28/06, young wrote: = Hi Pat and all, I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution. 1) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless = service", and put it in the section 4.4 The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep = Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). = While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding identifier. The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using ( Probably eventually managed by IANA) =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A00 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 = 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+ =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0 Radio ID=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0 WLAN ID=A0=A0=A0 |= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 MAC Mode=A0=A0=A0 | Tunnel Mode=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+ =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Wireless binding i= dentifier =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0| =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+ = =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0|=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Type=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0|=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Length=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0| =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+ = =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0|=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Value... =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+ = It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update WLAN". =A0 2) Rename "11.9.22.=A0 IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as =A0"WTP Quali= ty of Service" Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service". For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great. =A0 3)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 = The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding. I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent = during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better. If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by protocol. The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. = For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter and know current configuration on the WTP radio. If this way, current "11.9.18.=A0 IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.=A0 IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.=A0 = IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element. =A04)=A0=A0 Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as =A0"WTP Statistics" in the= section 4.4 = Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" = could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count" and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. =A0 Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will be divided into two parts. =A0 Cheers =A0 Richard =A0(Shiyang) _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From amendolai@centier.net Fri Oct 06 04:10:28 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVkmq-0000UJ-JX for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 04:10:28 -0400 Received: from host-82-207-96-204.lv.ukrtel.net ([82.207.96.204] helo=centier.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVkif-0004JL-7Q for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 04:06:11 -0400 Message-ID: <01c6e91e$29db0cb0$0484a8c0@oper> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:05:18 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Farouk Tolliver" From: "Farouk Tolliver" To: Subject: Re: Hi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_92C1_01C6E937.4F2AB5B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_92C1_01C6E937.4F2AB5B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, ClAjLIS VALjlUM AMBjlEN VlAjGRA SAjVE 60 % with http://www.fertionkinfadesun.com =20 _____ =20 his flag officer carried two chairs. 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------=_NextPart_000_92C1_01C6E937.4F2AB5B0-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 08:36:33 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVowL-0006G3-Fi for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 08:36:33 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVowJ-00057u-Ph for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 08:36:33 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4536043052C for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 05:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3A84300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 05:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872C0398042 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 05:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc11.comcast.net (alnrmhc11.comcast.net [206.18.177.51]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23669398031 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 05:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (c-68-49-199-146.hsd1.md.comcast.net[68.49.199.146]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20061006123323b11008ducte>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 12:33:34 +0000 Message-ID: <45264D14.4010809@cs.umd.edu> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 08:33:24 -0400 From: Charles Clancy User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cheng Hong References: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD01365FF5@pslexc01.psl.local> In-Reply-To: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD01365FF5@pslexc01.psl.local> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.374 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 You're suggesting the disclaimer and "static initialization value" (perhaps more accurate term than a "default value") would be mandatory to implement, and there would also be an optional information exchange to synchronize the KeyRSC to something else. That certainly sounds like a good compromise, but I suspect a little more complicated to implement than it first appears. For example, the WTP would need to communicate it's ability to be queried for the KeyRSC to the AC during initialization. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy Cheng Hong wrote: > Hi Charles and all, > > To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". Otherwise, > it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the > actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means the STA > is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the next 50 > seqeunce count. > > So, I think we need some clarification on what is the decision here. Is > the decision now: > - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers. > And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always. > > Or, We also allow: > - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a simple > element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC choose not to > support such mechanism, it will have to set the KeyRSC to zero. And a > security disclaimer to state what is the effect of setting the KeyRSC to > zero. > > cheers > > Cheng Hong > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] >> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM >> To: Dorothy Stanley >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >> >> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the >> appropriate section. That would be in addition to the >> changes to the security considerations. Without specifying a >> default value, we could have interoperability issues between >> WTPs and ACs. >> >> -- >> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy >> >> Dorothy Stanley wrote: >>> Behcet, >>> >>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that text be added >>> into the security considerations section. >>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC >>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0. >>> >>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide >>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to >> understand? >>> The most we can say >>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation >> is free to >>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value. >>> >>> Dorothy >>> >>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* >> > wrote: >>> >>> I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a >> possibility. >>> As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is >> interoperable >>> but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in >> and modify >>> then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for >>> interoperability? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com >>> > >>> To: capwap > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>> >>> Following up once again - after careful review, I still >> agree with >>> Charles, and here's some suggested text for the >> security considerations: >>> 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security >>> >>> When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP >>> encryption, the >>> CAPWAP protocol does not add any new >> vulnerabilities. Derived >>> session keys between the STA and WTP can be >> compromised, resulting in >>> many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD >> discourage the use >>> of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic >>> solutions >>> such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. >>> >>> When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol >>> may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on >> whether the link >>> security >>> (packet encryption and integrity verification) is >> provided by the >>> WTP or the AC. >>> When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new >>> security >>> concerns are introduced. >>> >>> However, when the WTP provides link security, a new >> vulnerability >>> will >>> exist when the following conditions are true: >>> >>> o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID >>> (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already >>> exists >>> >>> o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK >>> >>> Under these circumstances, the receive sequence >> counter (KeyRSC) >>> associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the >> AC anchors the >>> 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of >> the KeyRSC is not >>> known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK. >>> The client will update its Key RSC value to the >> current valid KeyRSC >>> upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, >> but prior to >>> this, >>> previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was >> secured with the >>> existing >>> GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this >> traffic as >>> valid. >>> >>> Typically, busy networks will produce numerous >> multicast or broadcast >>> frames per second, so the window of opportunity with >> respect to such >>> replay is expected to be very small. In most >> conditions, it is >>> expected that >>> replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. >>> >>> The only way to completely close this window is to >> provide the >>> exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any >>> other approach simply narrows the window to varying >> degrees. Given >>> the low relative threat level this presents, the additional >>> complexity >>> introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is >> not warranted. >>> That >>> is, this specification provides for a calculated >> risk in this regard. >>> ==> >>> However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value >>> before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake. >>> >>> --behcet >>> >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, >> please visit: >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 09:30:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVpmr-0002YG-Ca for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:30:49 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVpmo-0004cb-MK for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:30:49 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF26F430F45 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D8E4300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C7A430F30 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [216.148.227.151]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC31430F2B for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20061006132818m1100rta3ve>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:28:24 +0000 Message-ID: <452659F2.4020709@hyperthought.com> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 06:28:18 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cheng Hong References: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD01365FF5@pslexc01.psl.local> In-Reply-To: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD01365FF5@pslexc01.psl.local> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f2728948111f2edaaf8980b5b9de55af Hi Cheng, I think we have to make the security disclaimer no matter what, as there is a small window of opportunity unless you precisely synchronize the KeyRSC (which I think most agree is more complex than the resulting exposure warrants). As for setting the value, we could be rigid and require it to be set to zero, or we could be a little less precise, and leave some discretion here. The only requirement for interoperability is that the WTP *accept* any value, regardless of what its current KeyRSC value is (which is also true if we require "0"). Of course, if the AC sends the wrong value (i.e. a value greater than the actual KeyRSC), this will be a problem for the STA, and I think all would agree that this particular implementation is broken. On the other hand, strictly requiring the AC to send zero precludes a vendor of a "compliant" implementation from implementing some heuristic or workaround which narrows the window. Frankly, I'm not certain that any such workaround exists (short of some yet to be defined WTP/AC exchange), but I guess the question is, should we firmly slam this door shut, or should we specify only the necessary and sufficient text for interoperability? I think leaving the value unspecified might be a better approach. Scott Cheng Hong wrote: > Hi Charles and all, > > To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". Otherwise, > it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the > actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means the STA > is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the next 50 > seqeunce count. > > So, I think we need some clarification on what is the decision here. Is > the decision now: > - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers. > And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always. > > Or, We also allow: > - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a simple > element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC choose not to > support such mechanism, it will have to set the KeyRSC to zero. And a > security disclaimer to state what is the effect of setting the KeyRSC to > zero. > > cheers > > Cheng Hong > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] >> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM >> To: Dorothy Stanley >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >> >> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the >> appropriate section. That would be in addition to the >> changes to the security considerations. Without specifying a >> default value, we could have interoperability issues between >> WTPs and ACs. >> >> -- >> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy >> >> Dorothy Stanley wrote: >>> Behcet, >>> >>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that text be added >>> into the security considerations section. >>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC >>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0. >>> >>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide >>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to >> understand? >>> The most we can say >>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation >> is free to >>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value. >>> >>> Dorothy >>> >>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* >> > wrote: >>> >>> I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a >> possibility. >>> As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is >> interoperable >>> but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in >> and modify >>> then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for >>> interoperability? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com >>> > >>> To: capwap > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>> >>> Following up once again - after careful review, I still >> agree with >>> Charles, and here's some suggested text for the >> security considerations: >>> 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security >>> >>> When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP >>> encryption, the >>> CAPWAP protocol does not add any new >> vulnerabilities. Derived >>> session keys between the STA and WTP can be >> compromised, resulting in >>> many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD >> discourage the use >>> of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic >>> solutions >>> such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. >>> >>> When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol >>> may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on >> whether the link >>> security >>> (packet encryption and integrity verification) is >> provided by the >>> WTP or the AC. >>> When the link security function is provided by the AC, no new >>> security >>> concerns are introduced. >>> >>> However, when the WTP provides link security, a new >> vulnerability >>> will >>> exist when the following conditions are true: >>> >>> o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID >>> (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already >>> exists >>> >>> o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK >>> >>> Under these circumstances, the receive sequence >> counter (KeyRSC) >>> associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the >> AC anchors the >>> 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of >> the KeyRSC is not >>> known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK. >>> The client will update its Key RSC value to the >> current valid KeyRSC >>> upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, >> but prior to >>> this, >>> previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was >> secured with the >>> existing >>> GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this >> traffic as >>> valid. >>> >>> Typically, busy networks will produce numerous >> multicast or broadcast >>> frames per second, so the window of opportunity with >> respect to such >>> replay is expected to be very small. In most >> conditions, it is >>> expected that >>> replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. >>> >>> The only way to completely close this window is to >> provide the >>> exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any >>> other approach simply narrows the window to varying >> degrees. Given >>> the low relative threat level this presents, the additional >>> complexity >>> introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is >> not warranted. >>> That >>> is, this specification provides for a calculated >> risk in this regard. >>> ==> >>> However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value >>> before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake. >>> >>> --behcet >>> >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, >> please visit: >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 09:59:08 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVqDN-0001iE-CX for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:58:13 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVq1J-0007Ru-Oe for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:45:47 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665E6144804B for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E88F4300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1289B39806B for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:41:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 15 days 04:53:54 ago Received: from thingmagic.com (unknown [204.9.221.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68BB939802A for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.5]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1356280; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:40:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: <452659F2.4020709@hyperthought.com> References: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD01365FF5@pslexc01.psl.local> <452659F2.4020709@hyperthought.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Message-Id: <0F430E55-EB5C-44B6-AB3A-75CDA737E558@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 09:39:05 -0400 To: Scott G Kelly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.05 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap , Cheng Hong Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8cb9b411340046bf4080a729180a0672 While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the protocol portion of the document (as well as the security considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about something like: The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value are outside the scope of this specification. I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that implementors figure this out. Margaret --- On Oct 6, 2006, at 9:28 AM, Scott G Kelly wrote: > Hi Cheng, > > I think we have to make the security disclaimer no matter what, as > there > is a small window of opportunity unless you precisely synchronize the > KeyRSC (which I think most agree is more complex than the resulting > exposure warrants). > > As for setting the value, we could be rigid and require it to be > set to > zero, or we could be a little less precise, and leave some discretion > here. The only requirement for interoperability is that the WTP > *accept* > any value, regardless of what its current KeyRSC value is (which is > also > true if we require "0"). Of course, if the AC sends the wrong value > (i.e. a value greater than the actual KeyRSC), this will be a problem > for the STA, and I think all would agree that this particular > implementation is broken. > > On the other hand, strictly requiring the AC to send zero precludes a > vendor of a "compliant" implementation from implementing some > heuristic > or workaround which narrows the window. Frankly, I'm not certain that > any such workaround exists (short of some yet to be defined WTP/AC > exchange), but I guess the question is, should we firmly slam this > door > shut, or should we specify only the necessary and sufficient text for > interoperability? > > I think leaving the value unspecified might be a better approach. > > Scott > > Cheng Hong wrote: >> Hi Charles and all, >> >> To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". >> Otherwise, >> it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the >> actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means >> the STA >> is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the >> next 50 >> seqeunce count. >> >> So, I think we need some clarification on what is the decision >> here. Is >> the decision now: >> - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers. >> And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always. >> >> Or, We also allow: >> - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a >> simple >> element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC choose >> not to >> support such mechanism, it will have to set the KeyRSC to zero. And a >> security disclaimer to state what is the effect of setting the >> KeyRSC to >> zero. >> >> cheers >> >> Cheng Hong >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] >>> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM >>> To: Dorothy Stanley >>> Cc: capwap >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>> >>> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the >>> appropriate section. That would be in addition to the >>> changes to the security considerations. Without specifying a >>> default value, we could have interoperability issues between >>> WTPs and ACs. >>> >>> -- >>> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy >>> >>> Dorothy Stanley wrote: >>>> Behcet, >>>> >>>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that text be added >>>> into the security considerations section. >>>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC >>>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0. >>>> >>>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the WTP provide >>>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to >>> understand? >>>> The most we can say >>>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation >>> is free to >>>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value. >>>> >>>> Dorothy >>>> >>>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a >>> possibility. >>>> As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is >>> interoperable >>>> but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in >>> and modify >>>> then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for >>>> interoperability? >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com >>>> > >>>> To: capwap > >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>>> Considerations >>>> >>>> Following up once again - after careful review, I still >>> agree with >>>> Charles, and here's some suggested text for the >>> security considerations: >>>> 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security >>>> >>>> When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP >>>> encryption, the >>>> CAPWAP protocol does not add any new >>> vulnerabilities. Derived >>>> session keys between the STA and WTP can be >>> compromised, resulting in >>>> many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD >>> discourage the use >>>> of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic >>>> solutions >>>> such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. >>>> >>>> When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the CAPWAP protocol >>>> may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on >>> whether the link >>>> security >>>> (packet encryption and integrity verification) is >>> provided by the >>>> WTP or the AC. >>>> When the link security function is provided by the AC, no >>>> new >>>> security >>>> concerns are introduced. >>>> >>>> However, when the WTP provides link security, a new >>> vulnerability >>>> will >>>> exist when the following conditions are true: >>>> >>>> o the client is not the first to associate to the WTP/ESSID >>>> (i.e. other clients are associated), and a GTK already >>>> exists >>>> >>>> o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK >>>> >>>> Under these circumstances, the receive sequence >>> counter (KeyRSC) >>>> associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the >>> AC anchors the >>>> 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of >>> the KeyRSC is not >>>> known when the AC constructs the message containing the GTK. >>>> The client will update its Key RSC value to the >>> current valid KeyRSC >>>> upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, >>> but prior to >>>> this, >>>> previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was >>> secured with the >>>> existing >>>> GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this >>> traffic as >>>> valid. >>>> >>>> Typically, busy networks will produce numerous >>> multicast or broadcast >>>> frames per second, so the window of opportunity with >>> respect to such >>>> replay is expected to be very small. In most >>> conditions, it is >>>> expected that >>>> replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. >>>> >>>> The only way to completely close this window is to >>> provide the >>>> exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any >>>> other approach simply narrows the window to varying >>> degrees. Given >>>> the low relative threat level this presents, the additional >>>> complexity >>>> introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is >>> not warranted. >>>> That >>>> is, this specification provides for a calculated >>> risk in this regard. >>>> ==> >>>> However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact KeyRSC value >>>> before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake. >>>> >>>> --behcet >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, >>> please visit: >>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>>> -- >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 13:39:13 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVtfF-0001mM-MS for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:39:13 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVtf9-0000bx-TD for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:39:13 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A7A39806E for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65604300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABFC144804A for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DD71448046 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so1199955nfb for ; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.90.4 with SMTP id s4mr5739375nfl; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.6 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610061036r838992cq8187aa9f08202656@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:31 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: young@huawei-3com.com In-Reply-To: <001201c6e90f$d9f63390$5817120a@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001201c6e90f$d9f63390$5817120a@china.huawei.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: * Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1829666503==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 2df02f1a0db129c5d94869f6959903ec --===============1829666503== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_34322_30513108.1160156191705" ------=_Part_34322_30513108.1160156191705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Richard, Notes inline. Thanks, Dorothy On 10/5/06, young wrote: > > Hi, Dorothy: > Thanks for your proposed resolutions. You're welcome. > In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be > common > elements, it's not clear that the > CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying > the > common elements > across wireless systems." > If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time > to make it clear. > Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base > part > scope is not clear? > I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope > is > very important for > base part separation from wireless specific binding. I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding division of labor. The current draft, with the exception (largely) of the WTP Radio information element, puts the wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base protocol. This is the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions. Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage the session between the AC and WTP. Some message elements, for example the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and could arguably move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs 802.16. I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204. > 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information > Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment. > I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section > 4.4. > While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding. > We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information. > By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type > definition. > The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by > IANA. > No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is > a > key > Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding. > I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue. I considered several options on this one. (a) Have both a CAPWAP base element that included the "first level" radio information: 802.11, 802.15, 802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed level is provided, is the higher level even needed? (b) Have only binding-specific elements that specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in. (c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic. The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values - and require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology evolves, only the binding doc has to change. 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power > I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration" TLV. > By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with > Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table. > Channel also could be put here. > As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its > current > Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message > in > bi-direction. > More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required. > > |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------ > ---|---------| > | Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx > Power | Channel | > > |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------ > -- |----------| > As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I > suggest that "WTP Radio configuration" > is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information". Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element, that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration. This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and my preference would be to leave it there. Regards > Richard (shiyang) > > > > > > From: Dorothy Stanley (dstanley1389gmail.com) > Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) > All, > > Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are > listed below. > > Comments please. > > Thanks, > > Dorothy > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information > Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I > suggest > the > following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be > defined by wireless > technology binding. > 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. > 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. > 4 - > 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. > 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. > Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology > specific > radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information > element > as follows: > IEEE 802.11 Radio Information > The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to > communicate > the > radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP. The Discovery > Request message MUST > include one such message element per radio in the WTP. The Radio-Type > field is used by the > AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used > with the WTP. > The value contains two fields, as shown. > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Radio ID | Radio Type | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Radio Type | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Type: 38 for WTP Radio Information > Length: 5 > Radio ID: The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an > interface index on the WTP > Radio Type: The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present. > The following values are supported: > 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. > 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. > 4 - > 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. > 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. > 0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n: The 4 radio types > indicated are supported in the WTP. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power > Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx > power are > common parameters for RF management. > Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter > > that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the > IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values > defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not > extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define > values relative to its definitions. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > 3) Add "WTP radio channel" > Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to > AC) or to > configure channel (AC to AP). > Now,. 11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct > Sequence Control has channel configuration information. > But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will > provide > more common parameter for any wireless technology. > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Channel | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > The commenter suggests the following: > 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 > The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind > parameter > are common for any kind wireless binding. > I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. > Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power > these kind Info should not be sent > during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio > configuration" is better. > If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message > should be suggested by protocol. > The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, > Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this > way, > AC could configure WTP's RF parameter > and know current configuration on the WTP radio. > If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE > 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. > IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE > 802.11 related element. > Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there may be common > elements, it's not clear that the > CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying > the > common elements > across wireless systems. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > 4) 11.9.24. IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications > > Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a > common > event for > any wireless technology. > Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter > that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for > any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to > have additional information reported with the event however. Not > sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this > point. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > 5) 11.9.1. IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN > How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could > achieve > abstract while make it work for most wireless technology. > If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless > service, > > update wireless service" in the section > 4.4. > Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding > section. > > The commenter suggests a solution: > 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", > and put it in the section 4.4 > The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". > Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep > Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode > these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). > While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding > identifier. > The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using > ( Probably eventually managed by IANA) > Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. > The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used > together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service. > The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the > CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that > there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless > services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > 6) 11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service > > As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section > 4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP > Quality of > Service". > > While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of > Service. > The commenter suggests the following solution: > 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of > Service" > Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the > "WTP > Quality of Service". > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be > great. > Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. > The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed > to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data. > The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the > CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear > that > there are enough elements common to multiple wireless > services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. > There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude > if > desired. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------ > 7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section > 4.4 > > Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I > think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" > could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success > Count" > and so on. > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter > that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies. > However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values > defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible > to > other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to > its > definitions. > > On 9/28/06, young wrote: > Hi Pat and all, > I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution. > 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", > and put it in the section 4.4 > The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". > Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep > Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode > these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). > While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding > identifier. > The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using > ( Probably eventually managed by IANA) > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel > Mode +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Wireless binding identifier | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Type | Length | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Value... > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update > WLAN". > > 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of > Service" > Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the > "WTP > Quality of Service". > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be > great. > > 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 > The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind > parameter > are common for any kind wireless binding. > I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. > Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power > these kind Info should not be sent > during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio > configuration" is better. > If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message > should be suggested by protocol. > The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, > Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this > way, > AC could configure WTP's RF parameter > and know current configuration on the WTP radio. > If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE > 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. > IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE > 802.11 related element. > 4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section > 4.4 > Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most > the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" > could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success > Count" > and so on. > For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. > > Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will > be > divided into two parts. > > Cheers > > Richard (Shiyang) > > > > ------=_Part_34322_30513108.1160156191705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Richard,

Notes inline.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, young <young@huawei-3com.com> wrote:
Hi, Dorothy:
Thanks for your proposed resolutions. 
You're welcome.
In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be common
elements, it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common elements
across wireless systems."
If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time
to make it clear.
Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part
scope is not clear?
I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is
very important for
base part separation from wireless specific binding.

I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding
division of labor.
The current draft, with the exception (largely) of  the WTP Radio information element, puts the
wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base protocol. This is
the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions.
Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage the
session between the AC and WTP.  Some message elements, for example
 the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and could arguably
move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs 802.16.


I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204.
1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment.
I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section
4.4.
While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding.
We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information.
By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition.
The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by
IANA.
No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a
key
Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.
I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue.

I considered several options on this one.
(a) Have both a CAPWAP
base element that included the "first level" radio information: 802.11, 802.15,
802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first
levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed level
is provided, is the higher level even needed?

(b) Have  only binding-specific  elements that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc.
The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the
control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in.

(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change
did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic.

The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the
radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the
base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values - and
require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can
move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology
evolves, only the binding doc has to change. 

2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration" TLV.
By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with
Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table.
Channel also could be put here.
As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its
current
Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in
bi-direction.
More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required.
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
---|---------|
| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx
Power | Channel  |
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
-- |----------|
As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I
suggest that "WTP Radio configuration"
is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information".

Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element,
that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration.
This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across
wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and
my preference would be to leave it there.

Regards
Richard (shiyang)





From: Dorothy Stanley ( dstanley1389gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
All,

Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are
listed below.

Comments please.

Thanks,

Dorothy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest
the
following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be
defined by wireless
technology binding.
      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
      4 -
802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology specific
radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information
element
as follows:
IEEE 802.11 Radio Information
   The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate
the
   radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.  The Discovery
Request message MUST
   include one such message element per radio in the WTP.  The Radio-Type
field is used by the
   AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used
with the WTP.
   The value contains two fields, as shown.

      0                   1                   2                   3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     |   Radio ID    |           Radio Type                          |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     | Radio Type    |
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

   Type:  38 for WTP Radio Information
   Length:  5
   Radio ID:  The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an
      interface index on the WTP
   Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.
      The following values are supported:
      1 - 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b radio.
      2 - 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a radio.
      4 -
802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g radio.
      8 - 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n radio.
      0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n :  The 4 radio types
         indicated are supported in the WTP.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx
power are
common parameters for RF management.
Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter

that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the
IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values
defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not
extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define
values relative to its definitions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)  Add "WTP radio channel"
Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to
AC) or to
configure channel (AC to AP).
Now,. 11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5.  IEEE 802.11 Direct
Sequence Control has channel configuration information.
But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will
provide
more common parameter for any wireless technology.

     0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

       |    Radio ID   |    Reserved   |        Current Channel       |

       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

The commenter suggests the following:
3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4
The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter
are common for any kind wireless binding.
I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
these kind Info should not be sent
during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
configuration" is better.
If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
should be suggested by protocol.
The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way,
AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE
802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5 .
IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 related element.
Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there may be common
elements, it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common elements
across wireless systems.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
4) 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications

Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common
event for
any wireless technology.
Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter
that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for
any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to
have additional information reported with the event however. Not
sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this
point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

5) 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN
How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could
achieve
abstract while make it work for most wireless technology.
If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service,

update wireless service" in the section
4.4.
Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding
section.

The commenter suggests a solution:
1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service",
and put it in the section 4.4
The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep
Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).
While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
identifier.
The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using
( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used
together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service.
The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that
there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
6) 11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service

As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section
4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP
Quality of
Service".

While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of
Service.
The commenter suggests the following solution:
2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of
Service"
Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP
Quality of Service".
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be
great.
Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed
to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data.
The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear
that
there are enough elements common to multiple wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude
if
desired.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4

Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I
think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"
could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count"
and so on.
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter
that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies.
However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values
defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to
other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its
definitions.

On 9/28/06, young <young [at] huawei-3com.com> wrote:
Hi Pat and all,
I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution.
1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service",
and put it in the section 4.4
The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep
Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).
While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding
identifier.
The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using
( Probably eventually managed by IANA)
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel
Mode +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Wireless binding identifier |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Type | Length |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Value...
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update WLAN".

2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of
Service"
Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP
Quality of Service".
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be
great.

3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4
The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter
are common for any kind wireless binding.
I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
these kind Info should not be sent
during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio
configuration" is better.
If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message
should be suggested by protocol.
The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way,
AC could configure WTP's RF parameter
and know current configuration on the WTP radio.
If this way, current "11.9.18 . IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE
802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.
IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 related element.
4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section
4.4
Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most
the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"
could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count"
and so on.
For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will be
divided into two parts.

Cheers

Richard (Shiyang)




------=_Part_34322_30513108.1160156191705-- --===============1829666503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1829666503==-- From rossignmathie@ecsh.net Fri Oct 06 14:02:01 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVu1J-00067A-VM for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:02:01 -0400 Received: from 88-136-169-65.adslgp.cegetel.net ([88.136.169.65] helo=ecsh.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVu1I-0003eA-FD for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:02:01 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6e971$41b82040$22cca8c0@agtsbas> Reply-To: "Eirian Gooch" From: "Eirian Gooch" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Hi Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:00:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6E936.95594840" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6E936.95594840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, VrAGRA 50 % less http://www.cuifendinkasdelio.com =20 _____ =20 Get it, Fido, I whispered. Aida reacted instantly; our plastic pet as he ran back the way he had come. He nodded acceptance. I never did enjoy retirement. Whats next, ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6E936.95594840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

VrAGRA 50 % less

 

Get it, Fido, I whispered. Aida reacted instantly; our plastic = pet
as he ran back the way he had come.
He nodded acceptance. I never did enjoy retirement. Whats = next,

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6E936.95594840-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 16:18:54 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVw9m-0003hz-SO for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:18:54 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVw9j-00078Z-CU for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:18:54 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC98398075 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C284300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B5E1448050 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCE61448060 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Oct 2006 13:17:52 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,273,1157353200"; d="scan'208"; a="328919463:sNHT6572992852" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k96KHpIX029437 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:17:51 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k96KHkOd010237 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:17:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:17:43 -0700 Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC0222B846@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Issue: WTP restarts after firmware download Thread-Index: AcbphHq1yfoxv0H0T+yD7g0I0tqT9A== From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2006 20:17:44.0012 (UTC) FILETIME=[7B4B38C0:01C6E984] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=boohara@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] Issue: WTP restarts after firmware download X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa I believe that the expected resolution to Issue 200 (Trickle Firmware Download) is to provide for download of firmware while the WTP is in the RUN state and servicing wireless clients. In this case, it may be expected that the download of firmware to a large group of WTPs will not conclude simultaneously. In fact, one operational scenario is to download new firmware versions to small groups of WTPs, only downloading to new groups of WTPs after the prior group has completed. It will be desirable for the WTPs that have concluded the firmware download to continue in the RUN state, until a RESET message is received. This will allow the orderly restart of the WTPs, so that all come up on the same (or compatible) firmware version. There are two problems that this introduces. First, a WTP may spontaneously restart, due to removal and reapplication of power or other reasons outside of the control of the CAPWAP protocol. Second, the WTP may need to be restarted under the control of the CAPWAP protocol, but continue using the earlier version of firmware. I propose that we add a function to CAPWAP to control the version of firmware that is used when a WTP restarts. Some alternatives are the following. 1. Require the WTP to maintain a nonvolatile "last boot version" that is used as the source of the version of firmware for the next boot and add a new configure message element to change this value. 2. Require that the WTP always restart on the last firmware version it booted from and add a firmware version message element to the Reset Request message to cause the WTP to restart using a different version. I am sure there are other ways to accomplish this and welcome other suggestions. -Bob Bob O'Hara Cisco Systems - WNBU Phone: +1 408 853 5513 Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 16:23:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVwEQ-0005dJ-Hj for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:23:42 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVwEO-0008UX-U6 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:23:42 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A936398075 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E61E4300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE9B1448033 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-ext14.nokia.com (mgw-ext14.nokia.com [131.228.20.173]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF4911448043 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-ext14.nokia.com (Switch-3.1.10/Switch-3.1.10) with ESMTP id k96KMOTA004584; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 23:22:25 +0300 Received: from daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.112]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 6 Oct 2006 23:22:24 +0300 Received: from mvebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.19.64.23]) by daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:22:22 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:22:20 -0700 Message-ID: <893AE265F4ADF94AB7FB26D31A788E4102B58C40@mvebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <893AE265F4ADF94AB7FB26D31A788E41029E0CCC@mvebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Final Consensus determination on Split CAPWAP draft Thread-Index: AcbY82fx0AwmEjxkSO+bTrWL20FI8gQkMEuw From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2006 20:22:22.0360 (UTC) FILETIME=[2133C180:01C6E985] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME X-Spam-Level: Cc: margaret@thingmagic.com Subject: [Capwap] Final Consensus determination on Split CAPWAP draft X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0376078129==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25eb6223a37c19d53ede858176b14339 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0376078129== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6E985.209EE32C" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E985.209EE32C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Based on overwhelming support for the Split CAPWAP draft, the Chairs are declaring WG consensus on splitting the current CAPWAP protocol draft into a base draft and an 802.11 binding draft. The Editors will be submitting Version 00 of the 802.11 binding draft by the October 16th IETF 67 draft deadline. Thanks to everyone who submitting their opinions on this consensus call. Best Regards, Dorothy, Mani and Margaret > _____________________________________________=20 > From: Gellert Dorothy (Nokia-ES/MtView) =20 > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:19 AM > To: Capwap@frascone.com > Cc: ext Mani, Mahalingam (Mani); margaret@thingmagic.com; Kessens > David (Nokia-NET/MtView); dromasca@avaya.com; Gellert Dorothy > (Nokia-ES/MtView) > Subject: Consensus call on Split CAPWAP draft by 9/29. >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > The editors feel that there is WG support to split the current CAPWAP > protocol draft into 2 drafts, a base draft and then a 802.11 binding > draft. The chairs would like to verify consensus with the WG that > there is sufficient interest to split the draft before making this > change. >=20 > This issue has been discussed at the last CAPWAP WG meeting during > IETF 66 in Montreal where there was no opposition to this request, and > limited support on the list. =20 >=20 > The chairs would like establish consensus on the issue of splitting > binding specific details from the base CAPWAP specification.=20 >=20 > Please submit your opinions on this topic to the WG list by Sept 29th, > for a final consensus call on this feature. >=20 > Best Regards, > Dorothy, Mani and Margaret >=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E985.209EE32C Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Final Consensus determination on Split CAPWAP draft

All,

Based on overwhelming = support for the Split CAPWAP draft, the Chairs are declaring WG = consensus on splitting the current CAPWAP protocol draft into a base = draft and an 802.11 binding draft.

The Editors will be = submitting Version 00 of the 802.11 binding draft by the October 16th = IETF 67 draft deadline.

Thanks to everyone = who submitting their opinions on this consensus call.

Best Regards,
Dorothy, Mani and = Margaret

_____________________________________________
From:   Gellert Dorothy (Nokia-ES/MtView) 
Sent:   Friday, September 15, 2006 11:19 AM
To:     Capwap@frascone.com
Cc:     ext Mani, Mahalingam (Mani); margaret@thingmagic.com; = Kessens David (Nokia-NET/MtView); dromasca@avaya.com; Gellert Dorothy = (Nokia-ES/MtView)

Subject:       = Consensus call on Split CAPWAP draft = by 9/29.

Hi All,

The editors feel that there is WG = support to split the current CAPWAP protocol draft into 2 drafts, a base = draft and then a 802.11 binding draft.  The chairs would like to = verify consensus with the WG that there is sufficient interest to split = the draft before making this change.

This issue has been discussed at = the last CAPWAP WG meeting during IETF 66 in Montreal where there was no = opposition to this request, and limited support on the list.  =

The chairs would like establish = consensus on the issue of splitting binding specific details from the = base CAPWAP specification.

Please submit your opinions on = this topic to the WG list by Sept 29th, for a final consensus call on = this feature.

Best Regards,
Dorothy, Mani and = Margaret

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E985.209EE32C-- --===============0376078129== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0376078129==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 18:38:26 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVyKo-000247-IS for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:38:26 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVyKk-0006oH-Q2 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:38:26 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39FD398051 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB8B4300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8435A144806C for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF761448062 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Oct 2006 15:36:55 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,273,1157353200"; d="scan'208"; a="328953284:sNHT75457688" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k96MatOe016198; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:36:55 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k96MafOV005306; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:36:40 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:36:39 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8639@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbpTdzSFDp/oAGkSyy0YXCGitJGegASgMdg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Scott G Kelly" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2006 22:36:40.0930 (UTC) FILETIME=[E47BF420:01C6E997] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap , Cheng Hong Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9cc83ac38bbbabacbf00f656311dd8d8 I agree with Margaret Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 6:39 AM > To: Scott G Kelly > Cc: capwap; Cheng Hong > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > > While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal > implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to > the protocol portion of the document (as well as the security > considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about something > like: > > The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the > 4-way 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a > more optimal RSC value to use. Mechanisms for determining a > more optimal RSC value are outside the scope of this specification. > > I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope > that implementors figure this out. > > Margaret > > --- > > On Oct 6, 2006, at 9:28 AM, Scott G Kelly wrote: > > > Hi Cheng, > > > > I think we have to make the security disclaimer no matter what, as > > there is a small window of opportunity unless you precisely > > synchronize the KeyRSC (which I think most agree is more > complex than > > the resulting exposure warrants). > > > > As for setting the value, we could be rigid and require it > to be set > > to zero, or we could be a little less precise, and leave some > > discretion here. The only requirement for interoperability > is that the > > WTP > > *accept* > > any value, regardless of what its current KeyRSC value is (which is > > also true if we require "0"). Of course, if the AC sends the wrong > > value (i.e. a value greater than the actual KeyRSC), this will be a > > problem for the STA, and I think all would agree that this > particular > > implementation is broken. > > > > On the other hand, strictly requiring the AC to send zero > precludes a > > vendor of a "compliant" implementation from implementing some > > heuristic or workaround which narrows the window. Frankly, I'm not > > certain that any such workaround exists (short of some yet to be > > defined WTP/AC exchange), but I guess the question is, should we > > firmly slam this door shut, or should we specify only the necessary > > and sufficient text for interoperability? > > > > I think leaving the value unspecified might be a better approach. > > > > Scott > > > > Cheng Hong wrote: > >> Hi Charles and all, > >> > >> To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". > >> Otherwise, > >> it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the > >> actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It > means the > >> STA is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the > >> next 50 seqeunce count. > >> > >> So, I think we need some clarification on what is the > decision here. > >> Is the decision now: > >> - No change to the protocol design except some security > disclaimers. > >> And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always. > >> > >> Or, We also allow: > >> - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a > >> simple element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC > >> choose not to support such mechanism, it will have to set > the KeyRSC > >> to zero. And a security disclaimer to state what is the effect of > >> setting the KeyRSC to zero. > >> > >> cheers > >> > >> Cheng Hong > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > >>> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM > >>> To: Dorothy Stanley > >>> Cc: capwap > >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>> Considerations > >>> > >>> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the > >>> appropriate section. That would be in addition to the changes to > >>> the security considerations. Without specifying a > default value, we > >>> could have interoperability issues between WTPs and ACs. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | > www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > >>> > >>> Dorothy Stanley wrote: > >>>> Behcet, > >>>> > >>>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that > text be added > >>>> into the security considerations section. > >>>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC > >>>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0. > >>>> > >>>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the > WTP provide > >>>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to > >>> understand? > >>>> The most we can say > >>>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation > >>> is free to > >>>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value. > >>>> > >>>> Dorothy > >>>> > >>>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a > >>> possibility. > >>>> As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is > >>> interoperable > >>>> but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in > >>> and modify > >>>> then any value should be acceptable which may be a > concern for > >>>> interoperability? > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>>> From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com > >>>> > > >>>> To: capwap > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>>> Considerations > >>>> > >>>> Following up once again - after careful review, I still > >>> agree with > >>>> Charles, and here's some suggested text for the > >>> security considerations: > >>>> 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security > >>>> > >>>> When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP > >>>> encryption, the > >>>> CAPWAP protocol does not add any new > >>> vulnerabilities. Derived > >>>> session keys between the STA and WTP can be > >>> compromised, resulting in > >>>> many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD > >>> discourage the use > >>>> of WEP and encourage use of technically sound > cryptographic > >>>> solutions > >>>> such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. > >>>> > >>>> When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the > CAPWAP protocol > >>>> may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on > >>> whether the link > >>>> security > >>>> (packet encryption and integrity verification) is > >>> provided by the > >>>> WTP or the AC. > >>>> When the link security function is provided by the AC, no > >>>> new > >>>> security > >>>> concerns are introduced. > >>>> > >>>> However, when the WTP provides link security, a new > >>> vulnerability > >>>> will > >>>> exist when the following conditions are true: > >>>> > >>>> o the client is not the first to associate to > the WTP/ESSID > >>>> (i.e. other clients are associated), and a > GTK already > >>>> exists > >>>> > >>>> o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK > >>>> > >>>> Under these circumstances, the receive sequence > >>> counter (KeyRSC) > >>>> associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the > >>> AC anchors the > >>>> 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of > >>> the KeyRSC is not > >>>> known when the AC constructs the message > containing the GTK. > >>>> The client will update its Key RSC value to the > >>> current valid KeyRSC > >>>> upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, > >>> but prior to > >>>> this, > >>>> previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was > >>> secured with the > >>>> existing > >>>> GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this > >>> traffic as > >>>> valid. > >>>> > >>>> Typically, busy networks will produce numerous > >>> multicast or broadcast > >>>> frames per second, so the window of opportunity with > >>> respect to such > >>>> replay is expected to be very small. In most > >>> conditions, it is > >>>> expected that > >>>> replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. > >>>> > >>>> The only way to completely close this window is to > >>> provide the > >>>> exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way > handshake; any > >>>> other approach simply narrows the window to varying > >>> degrees. Given > >>>> the low relative threat level this presents, the > additional > >>>> complexity > >>>> introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is > >>> not warranted. > >>>> That > >>>> is, this specification provides for a calculated > >>> risk in this regard. > >>>> ==> > >>>> However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact > KeyRSC value > >>>> before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake. > >>>> > >>>> --behcet > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > >>> please visit: > >>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>> > >>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> -- > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >>>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>>> > >>>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>> > >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >> > >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 18:40:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVyMY-0003KI-WB for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:40:15 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVyMX-0006wT-Ax for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:40:14 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B39AA398078 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E214300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542451448036 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3CBB1448062 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Oct 2006 15:39:27 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,273,1157353200"; d="scan'208"; a="328954184:sNHT422880450" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k96MdQbr011584; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:39:26 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k96MdDbP024058; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:39:14 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:39:12 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E863D@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion Thread-Index: AcbdY6vEKMFgUw/STFqp1nztobZjogMNGCOQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2006 22:39:14.0818 (UTC) FILETIME=[40356620:01C6E998] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 932cba6e0228cc603da43d861a7e09d8 I fully support the two port approach, and thank Margaret for clearly describing the issue. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:mrw@lilacglade.org] > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:50 AM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] 2-Port/Mux Issue Discussion > > > Hi All, > > As many of you know, we have had a technical issue open in > the CAPWAP WG for some time that is commonly referred to as > the 2-port/mux issue. This issue involves a technical choice between: > > - A solution that uses two different well-known UDP ports for > separate data and control communications (the 2-port solution), > > OR > > - A solution that uses a single well-known UDP port for all > communication, with control and data traffic distinguished by > a CAPWAP header value (the mux solution). > > Strong opinions have been expressed on both sides of this issue, and > the WG has had trouble coming to consensus on a single choice. > Discussions in this area have included a wide variety of > networking topics, such as Quality of Service, NAT Traversal > and Mobility. > > Given the breadth of the technical issues under discussion, > our Area Director, Dan Romascanu, decided to solicit advice > from the IESG to help us understand the technical trade-offs, > and to help us understand which factors it would be > reasonable to consider in our working group decision -- > specifically whether or not it was reasonable for us to > consider the hardware implications of this decision. The > only IESG members who showed up for the discussion were Mark > Townsley, one of the Internet ADs, and our two OPS ADs, Dan > and David Kessens. We didn't receive a definitive answer > from the IESG, but a clear message was received from Mark > Townsley that it is reasonable for the group to consider the > hardware implications of our work -- both compatibility with > currently deployed hardware, and the hardware architectures > we might want to support in the future. > > After much discussion with the interested IESG members, the > document editors, the proponents of both solutions and some > people who have proposed compromise solutions, the chairs > believe that the key technical difference between these two > proposals is which hardware > architecture(s) they will support. There are currently two > different classes of AC hardware deployed, and variants on > both of these architectures may be deployed in the future: > > - Single-Processor: In this architecture, the control plane > and the data plane run on a single processor. The > demultiplexing of control and data packets happens on that processor. > > - Separate Data & Control Planes: In this architecture, the > data and control planes run on separate processors (and > possibly on separate cards), typically connected via a > switching fabric. This is a common hardware architecture for > higher-end routing and switching hardware, and it relies on a > port-based splitting/load-balancing approach to separate the > control and data traffic. For CAPWAP to work efficiently on > these systems, it must be possible to distinguish the control > and data traffic in the switching hardware, which is > typically done based on the five-tuple of the send & recv IP > addresses, the protocol (UDP), and the send & recv port > numbers. The switching hardware cannot do the type of deep > packet inspection required to demultiplex on CAPWAP header fields. > > The 2-port approach supports both the "Single-Processor" AC > architecture and the "Separate Data & Control Planes" AC > architecture. Proponents of this solution believe that it is > important to support the "Separate Data & Control Planes" > architecture efficiently, both for compatibility with > currently deployed hardware and to allow this hardware > architecture to be used for future CAPWAP-enabled products. > > The mux approach will only operate efficiently on "Single-Processor" > systems. as it relies on the ability to demultiplex the > control and data traffic using CAPWAP header information. > Proponents of this solution believe that it will simplify > CAPWAP software implementation, and that it makes NAT > traversal (when the AC and the WTPs are on different sides of > a NAT) simpler to configure. > > This complexity is a consequence of the choice to tunnel all > WLAN data traffic to the AC. In split-MAC local-forwarding > mode, only the control plane traffic would be sent to the AC, > and data plane forwarding would be handled by the WTPs themselves. > > We've heard from a couple of strong voices on this issue. but > now we'd like to hear from the rest of the WG... > > Which hardware architecture(s) does the CAPWAP protocol needs > to support? > > Specifically, do you think that it should be a requirement to > support efficient operation on currently deployed and future > ACs that follow the "Separate Control & Data Planes" > architecture described above? Or do you think that it would > be acceptable to produce a somewhat cleaner and simpler > protocol that will not work efficiently on those ACs? > > Please send your response by Thursday, October 5th (two weeks > from today), so that the chairs can gauge the consensus of > the WG in this matter. > > After we have an understanding of which hardware > architecture(s) the CAPWAP protocol needs to support, we will > make an effort to sort through the various proposals and > counter-proposals that meet that requirement. > > Thanks, > > The CAPWAP Chairs > Dorothy Gellert, Mahalingam Mani & Margaret Wasserman > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 06 20:26:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GW01e-0000i9-0d for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 20:26:46 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GW01X-0007jp-FY for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 20:26:45 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E99F3980A3 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A92AA4300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88822144805D for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E6D1448033 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.34] (helo=elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GW00V-0004Fg-Px; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 20:25:35 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 20:25:35 -0400 Message-ID: <30590544.1160180735753.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 20:25:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: Margaret Wasserman Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff710034783752543512f2e09384884331bb8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.34 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Hi Margaret, Comments inline below... -----Original Message----- >From: Margaret Wasserman >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM >To: Scott G Kelly >Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security >considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about something >like: > >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC >value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC value >are outside the scope of this specification. > >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that >implementors figure this out. > >Margaret After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered advice. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sat Oct 07 00:54:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GW4DD-000298-Gv for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2006 00:54:59 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GW4D9-0006Go-Am for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2006 00:54:59 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB59144809E for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 21:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5CF34300EA for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 21:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9638D39806D for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 21:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei-3com.com (h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com [210.21.230.96]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4E239804E for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 21:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei-3com.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6R0074I1VATI@h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com> for capwap@frascone.com; Sat, 07 Oct 2006 12:59:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from smtp1.huawei-3com.com ([172.19.1.38]) by h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6R007Z21VAIW@h3cml01-in.huawei-3com.com> for capwap@frascone.com; Sat, 07 Oct 2006 12:59:34 +0800 (CST) Received: from unknown (HELO RichardYoung) ([10.18.23.88]) by smtp1.huawei-3com.com with ESMTP; Sat, 07 Oct 2006 12:52:44 +0800 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:23:30 +0530 From: young To: dstanley1389@gmail.com, capwap@frascone.com Message-id: <000001c6e9cc$89af11f0$5817120a@china.huawei.com> Organization: huawei MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcbpzIjTGj5mrz0PRZKJsoRdHhnuMg== X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.47 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: young@huawei-3com.com List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0113703614==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bfc9ec46aa2f66e5aee6a3bbffb0ebe9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0113703614== Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_MMVritD19bABFILYH/Voyg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_MMVritD19bABFILYH/Voyg) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_pwxDHm4xvnDp2RNlIxwb1A)" --Boundary_(ID_pwxDHm4xvnDp2RNlIxwb1A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dorothy: Thanks for your comment, it is fine. Just as you mentioned, WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding division of labor. Anyway, a clear rule and scope of base protocol should be there. Till then, I think discussion on each TLV in detail will be more meaningful. I thought the scope of CAPWAP base protocol will be two way alternative: 1) Take effort on the control and data tunnel, tunnel related TLV is focus. No any wireless related element like Tx power, Channel, wlan and so on. 2) Based on 1), more abstract wireless element put in the base protocol. For example, radio, Tx power, channel and so on. Also, give a way to identify each wireless binding of 802.11, RFID and so on. Whether putting TLV in base or wireless binding just follow the rule made by WG or mailing list is ok. Regards Richard (shiyang) From: Dorothy Stanley (dstanley1389gmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Richard, Notes inline. Thanks, Dorothy On 10/5/06, young [at] huawei-3com.com> wrote: Hi, Dorothy: Thanks for your proposed resolutions. You're welcome. In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be common elements, it's not clear that the CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements across wireless systems." If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time to make it clear. Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part scope is not clear? I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is very important for base part separation from wireless specific binding. I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding division of labor. The current draft, with the exception (largely) of the WTP Radio information element, puts the wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base protocol. This is the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions. Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage the session between the AC and WTP. Some message elements, for example the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and could arguably move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs 802.16. I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204. 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment. I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section 4.4. While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding. We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information. By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition. The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by IANA. No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a key Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding. I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue. I considered several options on this one. (a) Have both a CAPWAP base element that included the "first level" radio information: 802.11, 802.15, 802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed level is provided, is the higher level even needed? (b) Have only binding-specific elements that specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in. (c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic. The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values - and require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology evolves, only the binding doc has to change. 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration" TLV. By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table. Channel also could be put here. As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its current Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in bi-direction. More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required. |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------ ---|---------| | Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx Power | Channel | |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------ -- |----------| As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I suggest that "WTP Radio configuration" is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information". Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element, that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration. This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and my preference would be to leave it there. Regards Richard (shiyang) --Boundary_(ID_pwxDHm4xvnDp2RNlIxwb1A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Dorothy:

 

Thanks for your comment, it is fine.

Just as you mentioned, WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding
division of labor. Anyway, a clear rule and scope of base protocol should be there.

Till then, I think discussion on each TLV in detail will be more meaningful.

 

I thought the scope of CAPWAP base protocol will be two way alternative:

1) Take effort on the control and data tunnel, tunnel related TLV is focus.

No any wireless related element like Tx power, Channel, wlan and so on.

2) Based on 1), more abstract wireless element put in the base protocol.

For example, radio, Tx power, channel and so on. Also, give a way to identify

each wireless binding of 802.11, RFID and so on.

 

Whether putting TLV in base or wireless binding just follow the rule made

by WG or mailing list is ok.

 

Regards

Richard (shiyang)

 

From: Dorothy Stanley (dstanley1389gmail.com)

Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0700 (PDT)

Richard,

Notes inline.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, young <young [at] huawei-3com.com> wrote:

Hi, Dorothy:
Thanks for your proposed resolutions. 

You're welcome.

In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be common
elements, it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common elements
across wireless systems."
If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time
to make it clear.
Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part
scope is not clear?
I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is
very important for
base part separation from wireless specific binding.


I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding
division of labor.
The current draft, with the exception (largely) of  the WTP Radio information element, puts the
wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base protocol. This is
the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions.
Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage the
session between the AC and WTP.  Some message elements, for example
 the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and could arguably
move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs 802.16.

 

I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204.
1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment.
I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section
4.4.
While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding.
We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information.
By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition.
The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by
IANA.
No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a
key
Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.
I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue.


I considered several options on this one.
(a) Have both a CAPWAP
base element that included the "first level" radio information: 802.11, 802.15,
802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first
levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed level
is provided, is the higher level even needed?

(b) Have  only binding-specific  elements that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc.
The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the
control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in.

(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change
did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic.

The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the
radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the
base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values - and
require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can
move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology
evolves, only the binding doc has to change. 

 

2) 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration" TLV.
By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with
Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table.
Channel also could be put here.
As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its
current
Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in
bi-direction.
More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required.
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
---|---------|
| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx
Power | Channel  |
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|------
-- |----------|
As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I
suggest that "WTP Radio configuration"
is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information".


Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element,
that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration.
This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across
wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and
my preference would be to leave it there.

 

Regards
Richard (shiyang)

 

--Boundary_(ID_pwxDHm4xvnDp2RNlIxwb1A)-- --Boundary_(ID_MMVritD19bABFILYH/Voyg) Content-id: Content-type: image/gif; name=image001.gif Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: attachment; filename=image001.gif R0lGODlhDQAMAHcAMSH+GlNvZnR3YXJlOiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT2ZmaWNlACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAAB AAEAgAAAAAECAwICRAEAOw== --Boundary_(ID_MMVritD19bABFILYH/Voyg)-- --===============0113703614== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0113703614==-- From vlzgggzazf@taycoeng.com Sat Oct 07 14:48:27 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWHDn-0007jD-7J for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2006 14:48:27 -0400 Received: from aczw139.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.11.232.139]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWH8c-0005aH-DN for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2006 14:43:09 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c6ea40$8cb05250$8be80b53@michal> From: "required." To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: its way store near Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 20:43:58 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C6EA51.50361510" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 202a3ece0492a8c7e7c8672d5214398f ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C6EA51.50361510 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C6EA51.50361510" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C6EA51.50361510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The world or getting smaller retro. Emitting diode timepiece. Moustache of Aviators am now! Dvd Creatives Xmod promises am bit surround am sound audio source aims =20 wii. Kick battle hidef Suddenly in Hddvds look like bloaters am Worlds or =20 Best Selling this weeks. Itunes Archive does support. London of There will a tantrums or Just is browsing Nintendo. Losers or from last nights British Academy Games in Awards. Video am Give on is sale Greatest gadgets ever Plus Beat charge Cameras =20 Cars bikes Gadgets. Fri oct pm people is who is dont have Sharp Turh twin digital am tuners =20 and? Top Forums Register in Contact us a Subscribe or Freeview gets in sky in =20 treatment? Many or shiny reckons well buy am before years over quite is. Last nights am British. Oyster. Up in! Cinema Laptops? Stuff Magazine hot. Mp what upscalers of. Sportsman Like how or ab ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C6EA51.50361510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6EA51.50348E70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: d890c9ddd0b0a61e8c597ad30c1c2176 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6EA51.50348E70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6EA51.50348E70" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6EA51.50348E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reckons well buy am before of years over. Bluray a mini side. Promises bit surround. Many shiny in reckons well is buy is before years of over. Info hydrogen car reviewed verdict Test Drive itunes Archive does =20 support. Hifi of separates cinema a Laptops. Weeks podcast Sept official. Wii high lets know how am many? Baftas dished Find winners a losers from. Archive does support therefore poll a Poll Using bargains cool kitin =20 retailer in zone. Greatest of gadgets in ever Plus or Beat charge Cameras in Cars bikes =20 Gadgets am! Alerts Create new group About Searched is all groups Your search. Pearl in of. Sure words. Latest or messages emailed a to Alerts. Quite Mini Bluray. Hidef Suddenly Hddvds? Advanced! Emailed to in Alerts Terms is of Servi ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6EA51.50348E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reckons well buy am before of years = over.
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Info hydrogen car reviewed verdict Test = Drive=20 itunes Archive does support.
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1GWKs8-0002Zc-2r for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2006 18:42:22 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c6ea61$d72792a0$27d98f54@teste43a8efb59> From: "did not" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: which fixes sources Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 00:42:16 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6EA72.9AB062A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6EA72.9AB062A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6EA72.9AB062A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6EA72.9AB062A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Already reported same or problem theres or. 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(PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C594300EE for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F42939806F for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B81398060 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id k995Mj7c016319; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:22:45 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id k995MjS14816; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:22:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/phillies) with ESMTP id k995MiI11606; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:22:45 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 13:21:16 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD013661C8@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbppxXG8vlRVt+XTGCZp/uvRyEy0wBuaiJg From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "Margaret Wasserman" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.424 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 Hi Scott, Some comments below: > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself > to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think > always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that > we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here > (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this > just doesn't sit right with me. > > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do > better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly > recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me > the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision > until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be > available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well > considered advice. I absolutely agree with you on this point. What I was trying to state in my previous emails was: - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a solution to this issue. - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value could work (value other than zero may be a problem for interoperability). - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security consideration section. - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). If there is a alternative solution than setting a static KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it. cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM > To: Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Hi Margaret, > > Comments inline below... > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Margaret Wasserman > >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM > >To: Scott G Kelly > >Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap > > > >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > > > > >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal > >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the > >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security > >considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about something > >like: > > > >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way > >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC > >value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC > value are > >outside the scope of this specification. > > > >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that > >implementors figure this out. > > > >Margaret > > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself > to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think > always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that > we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here > (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this > just doesn't sit right with me. > > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do > better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly > recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me > the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision > until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be > available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well > considered advice. > > Scott > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 03:11:01 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWpHx-0005Tw-Rq for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 03:11:01 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWpHv-0002xz-7N for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 03:11:01 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77CF430300 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C754300EE for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96243430278 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2714301AA for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/kings) with ESMTP id k99793YY003784; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:09:03 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id k99793S25598; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:09:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/mariners) with SMTP id k99794101367; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:09:04 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:07:49 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD0136620B@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbppxXG8vlRVt+XTGCZp/uvRyEy0wBuaiJgAAQFBzA= From: "Saravanan Govindan" To: "Cheng Hong" , "Scott G. Kelly" , "Margaret Wasserman" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 200d029292fbb60d25b263122ced50fc Hi Cheng Hong, Scott, I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in this case and needs to be fixed. My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. Saravanan -----Original Message----- From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Hi Scott, Some comments below: > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself > to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think > always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that > we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here > (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this > just doesn't sit right with me. > > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do > better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly > recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me > the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision > until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be > available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well > considered advice. I absolutely agree with you on this point. What I was trying to state in my previous emails was: - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a solution to this issue. - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value could work (value other than zero may be a problem for interoperability). - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security consideration section. - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). If there is a alternative solution than setting a static KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it. cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM > To: Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Hi Margaret, > > Comments inline below... > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Margaret Wasserman > >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM > >To: Scott G Kelly > >Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap > > > >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > > > > >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal > >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the > >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security > >considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about something > >like: > > > >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way > >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC > >value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC > value are > >outside the scope of this specification. > > > >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that > >implementors figure this out. > > > >Margaret > > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself > to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think > always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that > we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here > (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this > just doesn't sit right with me. > > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do > better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly > recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me > the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision > until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be > available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well > considered advice. > > Scott > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 04:33:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWqaB-0005ka-3v for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 04:33:55 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWoXl-0003Yk-Py for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 02:23:21 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA861448045 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 23:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7704300EE for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 23:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A22939803E for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 23:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0269D39803D for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2006 23:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id k996L5MX008306; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:21:05 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx2) with ESMTP id k996L5A07191; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:21:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/mariners) with ESMTP id k996L5120770; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:21:05 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:20:01 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD013661EE@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbpQ4LS1YbmmH+RSIWr69IX+R2VgACJvF6A From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Charles Clancy" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.424 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2a9ffb6f997442a3b543bcdaf483b990 Hi Charles, > appears. For example, the WTP would need to communicate it's > ability to be queried for the KeyRSC to the AC during initialization. Yes. It would require AC to know if WTP supports the sync of KeyRSC value. If WTP doesn't, AC could choose to set a static value for KeyRSC. The capability exchange has already been in the CAPWAP protocol for initialize the connection between AC and WTP. This probably is just another bit to be defined. cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 8:33 PM > To: Cheng Hong > Cc: Dorothy Stanley; capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > You're suggesting the disclaimer and "static initialization value" > (perhaps more accurate term than a "default value") would be > mandatory to implement, and there would also be an optional > information exchange to synchronize the KeyRSC to something > else. That certainly sounds like a good compromise, but I > suspect a little more complicated to implement than it first > appears. For example, the WTP would need to communicate it's > ability to be queried for the KeyRSC to the AC during initialization. > > -- > t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > Cheng Hong wrote: > > Hi Charles and all, > > > > To specify a "default" value means specifying it to "zero". > Otherwise, > > it would not work. Say, the "default" value is set to 100, but the > > actual sequence number used could be 50 at the moment. It means the > > STA is not able to receive the Broadcast/Multicast packets for the > > next 50 seqeunce count. > > > > So, I think we need some clarification on what is the > decision here. > > Is the decision now: > > - No change to the protocol design except some security disclaimers. > > And, specify a default value (0) to be used by the AC always. > > > > Or, We also allow: > > - The WTP and AC can choose to implement info exchange methods (a > > simple element to be specified in the draft). However, if some AC > > choose not to support such mechanism, it will have to set > the KeyRSC > > to zero. And a security disclaimer to state what is the effect of > > setting the KeyRSC to zero. > > > > cheers > > > > Cheng Hong > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > >> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:24 AM > >> To: Dorothy Stanley > >> Cc: capwap > >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >> Considerations > >> > >> We'd definitely need to specify a value for keyRSC in the > appropriate > >> section. That would be in addition to the changes to the security > >> considerations. Without specifying a default value, we could have > >> interoperability issues between WTPs and ACs. > >> > >> -- > >> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > >> > >> Dorothy Stanley wrote: > >>> Behcet, > >>> > >>> My understanding of Scott's recommendations is that text > be added > >>> into the security considerations section. > >>> - no additional CAPWAP protocol exchange between the WTP and AC > >>> - no specification of setting the keyRSC value to 0. > >>> > >>> Without some specification in the protocol, how can the > WTP provide > >>> the KeyRSC info to the AC in a way that the AC is sure to > >> understand? > >>> The most we can say > >>> with respect to the standard is that an AC implementation > >> is free to > >>> comes up with its own algorithm to set the keyRSC value. > >>> > >>> Dorothy > >>> > >>> On 10/5/06, *Behcet Sarikaya* >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> I agree with this and suggest adding Peter's fix as a > >> possibility. > >>> As far as interoperability is concerned, value 0 is > >> interoperable > >>> but not correct. If we allow implementations to snif in > >> and modify > >>> then any value should be acceptable which may be a concern for > >>> interoperability? > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>> From: Scott G. Kelly < s.kelly@ix.netcom.com > >>> > > >>> To: capwap > > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:15:40 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > >>> Considerations > >>> > >>> Following up once again - after careful review, I still > >> agree with > >>> Charles, and here's some suggested text for the > >> security considerations: > >>> 13.5. IEEE 802.11 Security > >>> > >>> When used with an IEEE 802.11 infrastructure with WEP > >>> encryption, the > >>> CAPWAP protocol does not add any new > >> vulnerabilities. Derived > >>> session keys between the STA and WTP can be > >> compromised, resulting in > >>> many well-documented attacks. Implementors SHOULD > >> discourage the use > >>> of WEP and encourage use of technically sound cryptographic > >>> solutions > >>> such as those in an IEEE 802.11 RSN. > >>> > >>> When used with IEEE 802.11 RSN security, the > CAPWAP protocol > >>> may introduce new vulnerabilities, depending on > >> whether the link > >>> security > >>> (packet encryption and integrity verification) is > >> provided by the > >>> WTP or the AC. > >>> When the link security function is provided by the > AC, no new > >>> security > >>> concerns are introduced. > >>> > >>> However, when the WTP provides link security, a new > >> vulnerability > >>> will > >>> exist when the following conditions are true: > >>> > >>> o the client is not the first to associate to the > WTP/ESSID > >>> (i.e. other clients are associated), and a > GTK already > >>> exists > >>> > >>> o traffic has been broadcast under the existing GTK > >>> > >>> Under these circumstances, the receive sequence > >> counter (KeyRSC) > >>> associated with the GTK is non-zero, but because the > >> AC anchors the > >>> 4-way handshake with the client, the exact value of > >> the KeyRSC is not > >>> known when the AC constructs the message > containing the GTK. > >>> The client will update its Key RSC value to the > >> current valid KeyRSC > >>> upon receipt of a valid multicast/broadcast message, > >> but prior to > >>> this, > >>> previous multicast/broadcast traffic which was > >> secured with the > >>> existing > >>> GTK may be replayed, and the client will accept this > >> traffic as > >>> valid. > >>> > >>> Typically, busy networks will produce numerous > >> multicast or broadcast > >>> frames per second, so the window of opportunity with > >> respect to such > >>> replay is expected to be very small. In most > >> conditions, it is > >>> expected that > >>> replayed frames could be detected (and logged) by the WTP. > >>> > >>> The only way to completely close this window is to > >> provide the > >>> exact KeyRSC value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake; any > >>> other approach simply narrows the window to varying > >> degrees. Given > >>> the low relative threat level this presents, the additional > >>> complexity > >>> introduced by providing the exact KeyRSC value is > >> not warranted. > >>> That > >>> is, this specification provides for a calculated > >> risk in this regard. > >>> ==> > >>> However, WTP implementations MAY provide the exact > KeyRSC value > >>> before forwarding message 3 of the 4-way handshake. > >>> > >>> --behcet > >>> > >>> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, > >> please visit: > >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>> > >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> - > >>> -- > >>> > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >>> > >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >> > >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >> > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From camdeni@gambrobct.com Mon Oct 09 08:30:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWuGp-0004Hu-Uh for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:30:11 -0400 Received: from [86.57.255.181] (helo=gambrobct.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWuGj-0006GX-E7 for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:30:11 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6eb9e$37383b30$08eaa8c0@xxtrz> Reply-To: "Hena Fitzsimmons" From: "Hena Fitzsimmons" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: VbAGRA Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 05:26:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EB63.8ADBAD20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EB63.8ADBAD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 VbAGRA for less http://www.badeyunjinmdasetion.com =20 _____ =20 Very much so, Jim. We have all been awaiting your report. Can you I slammed the panel shut and punched in a command. A cup of steaming Wazza? I said incoherently, still numbed with sleep. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EB63.8ADBAD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
 

Very much so, Jim. We have all been awaiting your report. Can = you
I slammed the panel shut and punched in a command. A cup of = steaming
Wazza? I said incoherently, still numbed with sleep.

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EB63.8ADBAD20-- From qhjqoohxyd@txdemocrats.org Mon Oct 09 08:43:57 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWuU9-00049j-HW for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:43:57 -0400 Received: from ppp15-32.adsl.forthnet.gr ([62.1.238.32] helo=ppp89-139.adsl.forthnet.gr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWuU3-0001Cc-Mq for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:43:57 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c6eba0$85c85030$8bfe4ac3@livingRoom> From: "month" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Cite Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:43:29 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6EBB9.AB158830" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6EBB9.AB158830 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6EBB9.AB158830" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6EBB9.AB158830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help or with search a get the latest. Create group About Searched. Downloads Podcasts Funny Videos. Would of killing kindle such hatred or nation make necessary them. Asia Movie Review or Kung of Slovakia Viva Liptov part Vijuice of =20 Revered. Fantasy plain of fashion retro. Layouts gtgt much choose a never decide is. With search get the latest or messages is emailed. Masters cruela Voyage Abyssinia Lobo had respect of father best tempered =20 revolt youth who has Fantasies am Stevenson Robert. Drop juice Song in if like Hong of Kong Asia Movie. Cruela Voyage Abyssinia Lobo had respect is father best tempered is =20 revolt in. Surfers is Browser extension day Myspace Layouts Pollsbull Upload or =20 Picsbull! Smoothly? About Searched all groups. Help with of search get. Members users Join Alerts? Add site warning only. In Wikipedia sec Page. ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6EBB9.AB158830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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v///AAYo4IAEFmjggQgmqOCCDDbo4IMQRijhhBRWaOGFGGao4YYcdujhhyBGhEKIhI1I4mAm nhhYiireBMNQLLbYV4xdTSNjRjTemFeOOt7FY49ABinkkBluQeSRSCap5JJMNunkk1BGKeWU VFZp5ZVYZqnlllx26aWF5CiJxJdklmmmTK2cmd0PiGWm5ptwxinnnHTWaeedeKaFQ5589gnb UX4GKuighBZq6KFeiYMoT4ouqlOjjuIEaaSUVsqhO5ZmKqUzmnbq6aeghioqZ6iMauqpqKaq 6qqsturqq+OwxjpeKbLWiio6tvZUj0Ps5OorZLT+miUuwhY7kzzGJjsQKETeoaxxaDwr7bTU VmvttdhmC1I82i7EbbdNeQAuQuKOa1C55hKEbroCrbvUIJLloNEkkLnLFLzsFjQIvvn26++/ AAcscEdHDGzwwQgnrDB3cyzs8MMQcxWIspxEbPHFGGes8cYcd+yxZbN8LHKggPxbsn2wzEQH XifXl7K/L/cbc74zs1vzyDjnTOI7Ovfs889ABy300EQXjRYGHvFQK9IAY8C00VBHLfXUVFdt 9dVYZ21hM1p35guUZnQttqwBAQA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6EBB9.AB158830-- From reed@chopped.com Mon Oct 09 09:25:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWv8l-00063U-IF for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:25:55 -0400 Received: from vpn-224-43.aichyna.com ([87.252.224.43] helo=chopped.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWuyG-00044V-JJ for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:15:06 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6eba4$b23fd710$6ec4a8c0@qmdirk> Reply-To: "Pericles Hausmann" From: "Pericles Hausmann" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: VbAGRA Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 06:13:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EB6A.05E0FF10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EB6A.05E0FF10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 VbAGRA for less http://www.ironequestrian.info =20 _____ =20 No one seems to be following us-so lets keep it that way. Five- Only on alternate years. Lets get to the next one. Remote controlled gun turret. Note that the top of it is ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EB6A.05E0FF10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
 

No one seems to be following us-so lets keep it that way. = Five-
Only on alternate years. Lets get to the next one.
Remote controlled gun turret. Note that the top of it = is

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EB6A.05E0FF10-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 10:54:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWwWY-0002vB-OM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 10:54:35 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWwT4-00067U-JQ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 10:51:00 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA983980B9 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DAA430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67CB939807D for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc15.comcast.net (sccrmhc15.comcast.net [63.240.77.85]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629D739800D for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc15) with ESMTP id <2006100914495901500mdj0se>; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:50:00 +0000 Message-ID: <452A6196.2080209@hyperthought.com> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 07:49:58 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Saravanan Govindan References: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD0136620B@pslexc01.psl.local> In-Reply-To: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD0136620B@pslexc01.psl.local> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap , Cheng Hong Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21be852dc93f0971708678c18d38c096 Hi Everyone, I think I was careless in my wording, and that has led to some confusion. Charles already pointed out that splitting the authenticator role across the WTP and AC significantly changes the security model, and I thought our various posts on this made clear that the minimal security exposure resulting from KeyRSC imprecision does not warrant this level of change to the protocol. However, what I meant to suggest in my Friday post was that rather than telling implementors they SHOULD set the value to zero right off the bat, we should hold off to see what sort of opportunities arise to derive a more accurate value from existing (or simply-added new) statistics. If it turns out that there are statistics from which an AC might unambiguously derive a "better" value, then (in my opinion) that's what implementors SHOULD use. However, we have yet to see if such a mechanism exists. Scott Saravanan Govindan wrote: > Hi Cheng Hong, Scott, > > I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. > > In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in this case > and needs to be fixed. > > My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the WTP. So the > AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to the WTP with an empty > KeyRSC field. The WTP could then correctly update the field, compute the > KeyMIC, update Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. > > Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP to > exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an acceptable > addition because it maintains the integrity of 802.11i exchanges and > provides a complete fix to the problem. > > Saravanan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM > To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > Hi Scott, > > Some comments below: > >> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself >> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think >> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that >> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here >> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this >> just doesn't sit right with me. >> >> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do >> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly >> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me >> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision >> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be >> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors >> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well >> considered advice. > > I absolutely agree with you on this point. > > What I was trying to state in my previous emails was: > - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a solution to > this issue. > - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the draft should > clearly point out that NOT all static value could work (value other than > zero may be a problem for interoperability). > - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger of setting > a static KeyRSC value in the security consideration section. > - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation for sync the > KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP standard should not dictate > such implementation incompatible). > > If there is a alternative solution than setting a static KeyRSC value to > narrow the window, I would vote for it. > > cheers > > Cheng Hong > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM >> To: Margaret Wasserman >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >> >> Hi Margaret, >> >> Comments inline below... >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Margaret Wasserman >>> Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM >>> To: Scott G Kelly >>> Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >>> >>> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal >>> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the >>> protocol portion of the document (as well as the security >>> considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about something >>> like: >>> >>> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way >>> 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC >>> value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC >> value are >>> outside the scope of this specification. >>> >>> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that >>> implementors figure this out. >>> >>> Margaret >> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself >> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think >> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that >> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here >> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this >> just doesn't sit right with me. >> >> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do >> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly >> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me >> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision >> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be >> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors >> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well >> considered advice. >> >> Scott >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 12:12:34 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWxk2-00061R-Jn for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:12:34 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWxhl-0000GH-Qc for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:10:16 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5752398090 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8DA430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3045E398043 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bay0-omc1-s14.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s14.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.86]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA52398051 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com ([207.46.8.230]) by bay0-omc1-s14.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:08:14 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:08:13 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 207.46.8.251 by by118fd.bay118.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 16:08:11 GMT X-Originating-IP: [202.156.10.12] X-Originating-Email: [saravanang@hotmail.com] X-Sender: saravanang@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <452A6196.2080209@hyperthought.com> From: "Saravanan Govindan" To: scott@hyperthought.com, Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:08:11 +0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 16:08:13.0497 (UTC) FILETIME=[1F692A90:01C6EBBD] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: * Cc: margaret@thingmagic.com, capwap@frascone.com, Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 Hi Scott, I am not sure the suggestion below affects any security model. As long as there is an established security framework between the AC and WTP, the suggested approach remains transparent. Furthermore, given that the protocol is still in development, I think we should seriously consider all options. Saravanan ----Original Message Follows---- From: Scott G Kelly To: Saravanan Govindan CC: Margaret Wasserman ,capwap ,Cheng Hong Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 07:49:58 -0700 Hi Everyone, I think I was careless in my wording, and that has led to some confusion. Charles already pointed out that splitting the authenticator role across the WTP and AC significantly changes the security model, and I thought our various posts on this made clear that the minimal security exposure resulting from KeyRSC imprecision does not warrant this level of change to the protocol. However, what I meant to suggest in my Friday post was that rather than telling implementors they SHOULD set the value to zero right off the bat, we should hold off to see what sort of opportunities arise to derive a more accurate value from existing (or simply-added new) statistics. If it turns out that there are statistics from which an AC might unambiguously derive a "better" value, then (in my opinion) that's what implementors SHOULD use. However, we have yet to see if such a mechanism exists. Scott Saravanan Govindan wrote: > Hi Cheng Hong, Scott, > > I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. > > In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in this case > and needs to be fixed. > > My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the WTP. So the > AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to the WTP with an empty > KeyRSC field. The WTP could then correctly update the field, compute the > KeyMIC, update Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. > > Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP to > exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an acceptable > addition because it maintains the integrity of 802.11i exchanges and > provides a complete fix to the problem. > > Saravanan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM > To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > Hi Scott, > > Some comments below: > >> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself >> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think >> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that >> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here >> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this >> just doesn't sit right with me. >> >> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do >> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly >> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me >> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision >> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be >> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors >> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well >> considered advice. > > I absolutely agree with you on this point. > > What I was trying to state in my previous emails was: > - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a solution to > this issue. > - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the draft should > clearly point out that NOT all static value could work (value other than > zero may be a problem for interoperability). > - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger of setting > a static KeyRSC value in the security consideration section. > - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation for sync the > KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP standard should not dictate > such implementation incompatible). > > If there is a alternative solution than setting a static KeyRSC value to > narrow the window, I would vote for it. > > cheers > > Cheng Hong > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM >> To: Margaret Wasserman >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >> >> Hi Margaret, >> >> Comments inline below... >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Margaret Wasserman >>> Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM >>> To: Scott G Kelly >>> Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >>> >>> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal >>> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the >>> protocol portion of the document (as well as the security >>> considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about something >>> like: >>> >>> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of the 4-way >>> 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more optimal RSC >>> value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC >> value are >>> outside the scope of this specification. >>> >>> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that >>> implementors figure this out. >>> >>> Margaret >> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring myself >> to agree with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think >> always using an RSC value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that >> we've acknowledged we are introducing a vulnerability here >> (however slight), telling implementors they SHOULD do this >> just doesn't sit right with me. >> >> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do >> better than always setting this to zero, and explicitly >> recommending that people nail this window open just rubs me >> the wrong way. At least, let's hold off on this decision >> until we've clearly defined what statistics we expect to be >> available. Seems like if we're going to tell implementors >> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well >> considered advice. >> >> Scott >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ Find just what you are after with the more precise, more powerful new MSN Search. http://search.msn.com.sg/ Try it now. _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:42:25 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWz8z-0000Xm-0g for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:42:25 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWz8t-0000dY-2P for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:42:24 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA7F3980A2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55EE6430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068F11448003 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B277E144800B for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:39:33 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329561913:sNHT317711568" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HdXwE021169; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:33 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HdIOp002492; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:27 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:27 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E893B@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components Thread-Index: Acbpbly+vxXENvQ8Q72CYwRhDaJfuwCVUhmg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:39:27.0970 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE737420:01C6EBC9] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 43 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0214875424==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4047ed98d34f6c3eb2a5aa2dd97f5564 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0214875424== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DE40460D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DE40460D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Again agree with Dorothy. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 10:37 AM To: young@huawei-3com.com Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components =09 =09 Richard,=20 =09 Notes inline.=20 =09 Thanks,=20 =09 Dorothy =09 =09 On 10/5/06, young wrote:=20 Hi, Dorothy: Thanks for your proposed resolutions.=20 You're welcome. =09 In your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be common=20 elements, it's not clear that the CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements across wireless systems." If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or mailing list had better take time=20 to make it clear. Otherwise, how to decide what info should put in the base part if base part scope is not clear? I thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and scope is very important for=20 base part separation from wireless specific binding. I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base vs binding division of labor. The current draft, with the exception (largely) of the WTP Radio information element, puts the=20 wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than the base protocol. This is the approach I followed in developing the proposed resolutions.=20 Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to establish and manage the session between the AC and WTP. Some message elements, for example the WTP radio statistics and Decryption Error Report are borderline and could arguably move to the binding; but they are not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs 802.16. =09 =09 I give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204. 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information=20 Sorry for I don't make issue clear in my comment. I suggest that WTP Radio Information could be kept in the current section 4.4. While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds info could be defined by 802.11binding. We could add a Wireless binding identifier in the WTP Radio Information.=20 By this way, we could identify any Wireless binding's radio type definition. The Wireless binding identifier could be probably eventually managed by IANA. No matter what method will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a=20 key Point to help base protocol to separate any wireless binding. I thought that Wireless binding identifier method will be a common issue. I considered several options on this one.=20 (a) Have both a CAPWAP base element that included the "first level" radio information: 802.11, 802.15, 802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific binding elements that specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. Thus as the first levels churn internally, the base spec isn't impacted. But if the detailed level is provided, is the higher level even needed? =09 (b) Have only binding-specific elements that specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc.=20 The binding will need to specify that the element must be included in the control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was in. =09 (c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the change did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology agnostic. =09 The WTP Radio information message element includes only 2 fields, the radio type and the radio information. If we want radio specific info in the base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the 802.11,15,16,etc values - and require that the capwap base spec change as new values are added, or we can move the radio-type info to the binding, and then as the wireless technology evolves, only the binding doc has to change. =20 =09 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power I suggest we could define a "WTP Radio configuration" TLV.=20 By using wireless binding identifier, there will be no conflict with Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table. Channel also could be put here. As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to AP), and AP will report its current Configuration to AC, the TLV will be carried in the configuration message in bi-direction. More TLV could be added into the TLV if it is required. =09 |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|-- ----=20 ---|---------| | Radio ID| country code| wireless binding identifier | Max Tx Power |Tx Power | Channel | =09 |---------|-------------|-----------------------------|--------------|-- ---- -- |----------| As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in the discovery phase, I=20 suggest that "WTP Radio configuration" is required instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information". Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message element, that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio Configuration. This would require the TX power fields to have the same units across wireless types. This level of configuration is currenly in the binding and my preference would be to leave it there.=20 =09 Regards Richard (shiyang) =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 From: Dorothy Stanley ( dstanley1389gmail.com ) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) All, =09 Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are listed below. =09 Comments please. =09 Thanks, =09 Dorothy =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- --------------------------------------------- 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest=20 the following value should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless technology binding. 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. 4 - 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the 802.11 technology specific radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information=20 element as follows: IEEE 802.11 Radio Information The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate the radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP. The Discovery=20 Request message MUST include one such message element per radio in the WTP. The Radio-Type field is used by the AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used with the WTP. The value contains two fields, as shown. =09 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 =09 =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio ID | Radio Type | =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =09 | Radio Type | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =09 Type: 38 for WTP Radio Information Length: 5=20 Radio ID: The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an interface index on the WTP Radio Type: The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present. The following values are supported: 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. 4 - 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. 0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n : The 4 radio types indicated are supported in the WTP. =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- --------------- 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx power are common parameters for RF management. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter =09 that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the=20 IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions.=20 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- 3) Add "WTP radio channel" Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to AC) or to configure channel (AC to AP).=20 Now,. 11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control has channel configuration information. But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will provide=20 more common parameter for any wireless technology. =09 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =09 | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Channel | =09 =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =09 The commenter suggests the following: 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter=20 are common for any kind wireless binding. I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20 during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better. If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by protocol.=20 The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way,=20 AC could configure WTP's RF parameter and know current configuration on the WTP radio. If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5 . IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there may be common elements, it's not clear that the CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements across wireless systems. =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- -------- 4) 11.9.24. IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications =09 Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common event for any wireless technology. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter=20 that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to have additional information reported with the event however. Not sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this=20 point. =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ----------- =09 5) 11.9.1. IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could=20 achieve abstract while make it work for most wireless technology. If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service, =09 update wireless service" in the section 4.4. Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding section. =09 The commenter suggests a solution: 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4 The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode=20 these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding identifier. The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using=20 ( Probably eventually managed by IANA) Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service.=20 The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.=20 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ---- 6) 11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service =09 As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section=20 4.4. Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of Service". =09 While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service. The commenter suggests the following solution:=20 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of Service" Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service".=20 For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great. Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data. The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear=20 that there are enough elements common to multiple wireless services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude if desired. =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ------------------------------------------------------ 7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4 =09 Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count"=20 and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies.=20 However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its=20 definitions. =09 On 9/28/06, young wrote: Hi Pat and all, I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution. 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4 The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode these kinds common element (more element maybe put here). While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding=20 identifier. The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using ( Probably eventually managed by IANA) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel Mode +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Wireless binding identifier | =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Type | Length | =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Value... =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update WLAN". =09 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of Service" Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP=20 Quality of Service". For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great. =09 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4 The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding. I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power=20 these kind Info should not be sent during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better. If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message=20 should be suggested by protocol. The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.=20 The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter and know current configuration on the WTP radio. If this way, current "11.9.18 . IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element. 4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4 Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count" and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. =09 Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will be=20 divided into two parts. =09 Cheers =09 Richard (Shiyang) =09 =09 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DE40460D Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Again=20 agree with Dorothy.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 06, = 2006=20 10:37 AM
To: young@huawei-3com.com
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 204 and = proposed=20 resolutions to its components

Richard,

Notes inline.

Thanks,=20

Dorothy

On 10/5/06, young=20 <young@huawei-3com.com>=20 wrote:
Hi,=20 Dorothy:
Thanks for your proposed = resolutions. 
You're=20 welcome.
In=20 your Proposed Resolution, you mentioned that " While there may be = common=20
elements, it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base specification = should=20 take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common = elements
across=20 wireless systems."
If it is not clear, I suggest that WG or = mailing list=20 had better take time
to make it clear.
Otherwise, how to = decide what=20 info should put in the base part if base part
scope is not = clear?
I=20 thought a clear and common understanding of base part's rule and = scope=20 is
very important for
base part separation from wireless = specific=20 binding.

I completely agree that the WG needs to clarify on the base = vs=20 binding
division of labor.
The current draft, with the exception = (largely) of  the WTP Radio information element, puts the=20
wireless-technology specific elements in the binding rather than = the base=20 protocol. This is
the approach I followed in developing the = proposed=20 resolutions.
Most of the CAPWAP level message elements are used to = establish and manage the
session between the AC and WTP.  Some = message=20 elements, for example
 the WTP radio statistics and Decryption = Error=20 Report are borderline and could arguably
move to the binding; but = they are=20 not technology specific - e.g. 802.11 vs 802.16.


I=20 give my comment for the proposed resolutions to issue 204.
1)=20 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
Sorry for I don't make = issue=20 clear in my comment.
I suggest that WTP Radio Information could = be kept=20 in the current section
4.4.
While 802.11a/b/g/n these kinds = info could=20 be defined by 802.11binding.
We could add a Wireless binding = identifier=20 in the WTP Radio Information.
By this way, we could identify any = Wireless binding's radio type definition.
The Wireless binding = identifier=20 could be probably eventually managed by
IANA.
No matter what = method=20 will by used for Wireless binding identifier, it is a =
key
Point to=20 help base protocol to separate any wireless binding.
I thought = that=20 Wireless binding identifier method will be a common = issue.

I considered several options on this one.
(a) Have both a = CAPWAP
base element that included the "first level" radio = information:=20 802.11, 802.15,
802.16, 802.22, EPCGlobal, etc, AND specific = binding=20 elements that
specify the details, e.g. = 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc.=20 Thus as the first
levels churn internally, the base spec isn't = impacted.=20 But if the detailed level
is provided, is the higher level even=20 needed?

(b) Have  only binding-specific  elements=20 that
specify the details, e.g. 802.11a,b,g,n,y,180.16a,b,e,etc. =
The=20 binding will need to specify that the element must be included in=20 the
control messages that the previous CAPWAP level element was=20 in.

(c) keeping the definition as is. Didn't do this, since the = change
did make the CAPWAP base spec even more wireless-technology=20 agnostic.

The WTP Radio information message element includes = only 2=20 fields, the
radio type and the radio information. If we want radio = specific=20 info in the
base spec, then we can leave it there, and add the=20 802.11,15,16,etc values - and
require that the capwap base spec = change as=20 new values are added, or we can
move the radio-type info to the = binding,=20 and then as the wireless technology
evolves, only the binding doc = has to=20 change. 

2)=20 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
I suggest we could = define a "WTP=20 Radio configuration" TLV.
By using wireless binding identifier, = there=20 will be no conflict with
Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB = table.
Channel also=20 could be put here.
As AC will configure AP's RF parameter (AC to = AP), and=20 AP will report its
current
Configuration to AC, the TLV will = be=20 carried in the configuration message in
bi-direction.
More TLV = could=20 be added into the TLV if it is=20 = required.
|---------|-------------|-----------------------------|-----= ---------|------=20
---|---------|
| Radio ID| country code| wireless binding = identifier=20 | Max Tx Power |Tx
Power |=20 = Channel  |
|---------|-------------|------------------------= -----|--------------|------
--=20 |----------|
As Tx power these kind info will not be carried in = the=20 discovery phase, I
suggest that "WTP Radio configuration"
is = required=20 instead of extenuation of " WTP Radio Information".

Ok, so the proposal is to have a new base-spec-level message=20 element,
that incorporates a binding-defined-identifier for Radio=20 Configuration.
This would require the TX power fields to have the = same=20 units across
wireless types. This level of configuration is = currenly in the=20 binding and
my preference would be to leave it there. =

Regards
Richard=20 (shiyang)





From: Dorothy Stanley ( = dstanley1389gmail.com)
Date:=20 Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
All,

Issue 204 and = proposed=20 resolutions to its components are
listed below.

Comments=20 = please.

Thanks,

Dorothy

----------------------------= ------------------------------------------------
---------------------= ------------------------
1)=20 4.4.38.  WTP Radio Information
Comment: As the section = should=20 be work for any wireless implement, I suggest
the
following = value=20 should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be
defined by = wireless
technology = binding.
      1 -=20 802.11b:  An IEEE 802.11b=20 radio.
      2 - = 802.11a:  An=20 IEEE 802.11a radio.
      4=20 -
802.11g:  An IEEE 802.11g=20 radio.
      8 - = 802.11n:  An=20 IEEE 802.11n radio.
Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" = the=20 802.11 technology specific
radio types to the 802.11 binding, = modifying=20 the WTP Radio Information
element
as follows:
IEEE 802.11 = Radio=20 Information
   The IEEE 802.11 radio information = message=20 element is used to communicate
the
   radio = information for=20 each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP.  The Discovery =
Request=20 message MUST
   include one such message element per = radio in=20 the WTP.  The Radio-Type
field is used by = the
  =20 AC to determine which 802.11 technology specific binding is to be=20 used
with the WTP.
   The value contains two fields, = as=20 = shown.

      0   &nbs= p;            = ;  =20 = 1            =       =20 = 2            =       =20 3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 = 4 5 6 7=20 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

    =20 = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
&nbs= p;   =20 |   Radio=20 = ID    |       &nbs= p;  =20 Radio=20 = Type           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  |
    =20 = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

=     =20 | Radio Type    |
    =20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

   Type:  38 for WTP = Radio=20 Information
   Length:  5
   = Radio=20 ID:  The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to=20 an
      interface index on the=20 WTP
   Radio Type:  The type of IEEE 802.11 = radio=20 present.
      The following values = are=20 supported:
      1 - = 802.11b:  An=20 IEEE 802.11b radio.
      2 -=20 802.11a:  An IEEE 802.11a=20 radio.
      4 = -
802.11g:  An=20 IEEE 802.11g radio.
      8 -=20 802.11n:  An IEEE 802.11n=20 radio.
      0xOF - 802.11b, = 802.11a,=20 802.11g and 802.11n :  The 4 radio=20 types
         indicated = are=20 supported in the=20 = WTP.

-------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
---------------
2)=20 11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power
Comment: I think it = could be=20 moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx
power are
common=20 parameters for RF management.
Proposed Resolution: No change to = the=20 draft. Agree with the commenter

that TX power level is a = common=20 parameter for RF management; however the
IEEE 802.11 TX Power = field=20 values are defined as being the values
defined in IEEE=20 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not
extensible = to=20 other bindings. Expect that each binding will define
values = relative to=20 its definitions.=20 =
---------------------------------------------------------------------= ------
3)  Add=20 "WTP radio channel"
Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to = report=20 current channel (AP to
AC) or to
configure channel (AC to AP). =
Now,. 11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and=20 11.9.5.  IEEE 802.11 Direct
Sequence Control has = channel=20 configuration information.
But I think that a specific TLV for it = is=20 better. By this way, 4.4 will
provide
more common parameter = for any=20 wireless technology.

    =20 = 0            =       =20 = 1            =       =20 = 2            =       =20 3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = 8 9 0 1=20 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0=20 1
      =20 = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

=       =20 |    Radio ID  =20 |    Reserved  =20 |        Current=20 Channel      =20 |

      =20 = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

= The=20 commenter suggests the following:
3) Add "WTP RF Radio = configuration" in=20 the section 4.4
The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and = so on=20 these kind parameter
are common for any kind wireless = binding.
I=20 suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part.
Although the = protocol=20 already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
these kind = Info=20 should not be sent
during discovery and join phase. So the = separated=20 "WTP RF Radio
configuration" is better.
If keep them in one, = which=20 element will be mandatory in what kind message
should be = suggested by=20 protocol.
The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include = radio ID,=20 radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
For any = binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
The = "WTP RF=20 Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, =
AC=20 could configure WTP's RF parameter
and know current configuration = on the=20 WTP radio.
If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power",=20 "11.9.12. IEEE
802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5 .
IEEE 802.11 = Direct=20 Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 = related=20 element.
Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there = may be=20 common
elements, it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base = specification=20 should take on the task of extracting/unifying the
common=20 elements
across wireless=20 = systems.

---------------------------------------------------------= -------------------
--------
4)=20 11.9.24.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm=20 Indications

Comment: I think it could be moved to the section = 4.4, it=20 could be a common
event for
any wireless = technology.
Proposed=20 Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter =
that a=20 fail alarm indication could be a common event for
any wireless=20 technology. Each radio technology may want to
have additional = information=20 reported with the event however. Not
sure there is sufficient = benefit=20 shown for a common defintiion at this=20 =
point.
-----------------------------------------------------------= -----------------
-----------

5)=20 11.9.1.  IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN
How about we rename = "WLAN" as=20 wireless service? By this way, we could
achieve
abstract = while make=20 it work for most wireless technology.
If it is ok, we could = define "add=20 wireless service, delete wireless service,

update wireless = service"=20 in the section
4.4.
Any wireless technology could add its = specific=20 parameter in the binding
section.

The commenter suggests a = solution:
1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add = wireless=20 service",
and put it in the section 4.4
The glossary "wireless = service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
Refer to current = "IEEE 802.11=20 add WLAN" format, we could keep
Radio ID, service ID (rename = "WLAN ID" to=20 it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
these kinds common element (more = element=20 maybe put here).
While for any specific wireless binding could = follow the=20 Wireless binding
identifier.
The Wireless binding identifier = will=20 identify what kinds binding are using
( Probably eventually = managed by=20 IANA)
Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft.
The = IEEE=20 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and = used
together with=20 several other message elements to define a WLAN service.
The = intent of=20 the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
CAPWAP = protocol to add=20 a generic wireless service. It's not clear that
there are enough=20 additional elements common to multiple wireless
services to have = a=20 separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.=20 =
---------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
----
6)=20 11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service

As per = 5), I=20 think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section =
4.4. Radio=20 ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the = "WTP
Quality=20 of
Service".

While CWMin and so on could be defined in the = IEEE=20 802.11 WTP Quality of
Service.
The commenter suggests the = following=20 solution:
2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of = Service" as=20 "WTP Quality of
Service"
Same idea, we could keep the radio = ID, Tag=20 Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP
Quality of Service".
For any = binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
For = Tag=20 Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will=20 be
great.
Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the = draft.
The=20 IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is = needed
to=20 convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data.
The = intent=20 of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the
CAPWAP = protocol to=20 include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear =
that
there=20 are enough elements common to multiple wireless
services to have = a=20 separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time.
There is at = least 1 -=20 the Tag packets type, which each binding can=20 = inlcude
if
desired.
--------------------------------------------= --------------------------------
-------------------------------------= -----------------
7.=20 Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section = 4.4

Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link = layer=20 protocol, I
think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11=20 Statistics"
could be put on the section 4.4, except the element = like "RTS=20 Success Count"
and so on.
For any binding, we use Wireless = binding=20 identifier to suggest them.
Proposed resolution: No change to the = draft.=20 Agree with the commenter
that many of the statistics are common = across=20 wireless technologies.
However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values = are=20 defined as being the values
defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB = variables=20 and thus are not extensible to
other bindings. Expect that each = binding=20 will define values relative to its
definitions.

On = 9/28/06, young=20 <young [at] huawei-3com.com>=20 wrote:
Hi Pat and all,
I used to raise issue #204, and here = intend to=20 give solution.
1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add = wireless=20 service",
and put it in the section 4.4
The glossary "wireless = service" will be more abstract than "WLAN".
Refer to current = "IEEE 802.11=20 add WLAN" format, we could keep
Radio ID, service ID (rename = "WLAN ID" to=20 it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode
these kinds common element (more = element maybe=20 put here).
While for any specific wireless binding could follow = the=20 Wireless binding
identifier.
The Wireless binding identifier = will=20 identify what kinds binding are using
( Probably eventually = managed by=20 IANA)
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 = 0=20 = 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =
|=20 Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel
Mode=20 = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|=20 Wireless binding identifier=20 = |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =
|=20 Type | Length=20 = |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+|=20 = Value...
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+
It=20 is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update=20 WLAN".

2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of = Service" as=20 "WTP Quality of
Service"
Same idea, we could keep the radio = ID, Tag=20 Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP
Quality of Service".
For any = binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
For = Tag=20 Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will=20 be
great.

3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the = section=20 4.4
The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these = kind=20 parameter
are common for any kind wireless binding.
I suggest = CAPWAP=20 define it in the base protocol part.
Although the protocol = already has=20 "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power
these kind Info should = not be=20 sent
during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF=20 Radio
configuration" is better.
If keep them in one, which = element=20 will be mandatory in what kind message
should be suggested by=20 protocol.
The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include = radio ID,=20 radio type,
Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.
For any = binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.
The = "WTP RF=20 Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this = way,
AC could=20 configure WTP's RF parameter
and know current configuration on = the WTP=20 radio.
If this way, current "11.9.18 . IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", = "11.9.12.=20 IEEE
802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5.
IEEE 802.11 Direct = Sequence=20 Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE
802.11 related=20 element.
4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" = in the=20 section
4.4
Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer = protocol, I think most
the element in the "IEEE 802.11=20 Statistics"
could be put on the section 4.4, except the element = like "RTS=20 Success Count"
and so on.
For any binding, we use Wireless = binding=20 identifier to suggest them.

Any way, I thought many TLV will = change=20 their location as new CAPWAP will be
divided into two=20 parts.

Cheers

Richard=20 = (Shiyang)




------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DE40460D-- --===============0214875424== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0214875424==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:44:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzAl-000171-H7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:44:15 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzAj-0000y6-WB for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:44:15 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867B83980D3 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F6A4300F2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42FA3980D5 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FA63980AE for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="1857099064:sNHT90991244" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgAcp010617; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Hg2Ov004245; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:09 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:09 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E894E@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 173 - message element exceedframe length. Thread-Index: AcbfQ8pzfM/Ni0loTmCW+1ol48SAnAMe4SLg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:09.0515 (UTC) FILETIME=[3EBD43B0:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 173 - message element exceedframe length. X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0294366932==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0294366932== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E9185E9" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E9185E9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Mike's assessment. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:09 PM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 173 - message element exceedframe length. =09 =09 I do not see why the CAPWAP transport fragmentation mechanism can't be used to address this issue. I propose that we close it with no updates to the draft, unless someone is willing to describe what changes need to be made.=20 =20 Cheers, =20 Mike ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E9185E9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 agree with Mike's assessment.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = September 23,=20 2006 12:09 PM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] = Proposed=20 resolution to issue 173 - message element exceedframe=20 length.

I do not see why the CAPWAP transport fragmentation mechanism = can't be=20 used to address this issue. I propose that we close it with no updates = to the=20 draft, unless someone is willing to describe what changes need to be = made.=20
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E9185E9-- --===============0294366932== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0294366932==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:45:38 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzC6-0002Iy-6V for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:45:38 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzC4-0001D0-LA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:45:38 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423353980C8 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DCF430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FF33980CE for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0B1398085 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-8.cisco.com ([171.68.10.93]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563251:sNHT97355168" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-8.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99Hg8FV022033; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Hg7On004332; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:07 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E894A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 140 - use of VLAN name Thread-Index: AcbfQq60agH8zTu/RLW/0amzOBiweQMenXoQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:07.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[3DCD6570:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-8.cisco.com; header.DKIM-Signature=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=fail ( 57 extraneous bytes; RSA-96 err: "Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\)" ; cisco.com/sjdkim8002 fail; ); header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=neutral X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.468 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 140 - use of VLAN name X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0875159617==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0875159617== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3DA7DF75" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3DA7DF75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree with this change. The reason why a name is better is that the ID may differ across WTPs, while representing the same "user group". For instance, engineering folks may be set to VLAN 101 on one set of WTPs, but 201 on others (based on geography). I believe that the use of the name is a more scalable approach that your proposed change. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:01 PM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 140 - use of VLAN name =09 =09 In section 4.4.8, I propose that we change VLAN name to VLAN Identifier ( as described in IEEE 802.1D). =20 Cheers, =20 Mike ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3DA7DF75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 disagree with this change. The reason why a name is better is that the = ID may=20 differ across WTPs, while representing the same "user group". For = instance,=20 engineering folks may be set to VLAN 101 on one set of WTPs, but 201 on = others=20 (based on geography). I believe that the use of the name is a more = scalable=20 approach that your proposed change.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = September 23,=20 2006 12:01 PM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] = Proposed=20 resolution to Issue 140 - use of VLAN name

In section 4.4.8, I propose that we change VLAN name to VLAN = Identifier (=20 as described in IEEE 802.1D).
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3DA7DF75-- --===============0875159617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0875159617==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:46:39 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzD5-0002Y8-Ke for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:46:39 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzD3-0001M2-W1 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:46:39 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F97398107 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68230430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CDA23980D5 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4AF03980B5 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208"; a="1857099097:sNHT1044747350" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgEZ7022992; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Hg7Ox004332; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8950@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue, please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 TxPower" Thread-Index: AcbonWjbwgkBfGU+Ra6L0IboaXdPUwDI5b/Q From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Dorothy Stanley" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:10.0677 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F6E9250:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One issue, please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 TxPower" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3d7f2f6612d734db849efa86ea692407 I disagree with changing the baseline from mW to dbm. I unfortunately am not online and only have access to the 802.11-1999 standard with me, but a quick glance at section 14.8.2.1.16 (dot11CurrentTxPowerLevel) uses a value in mW. I would prefer that we remain consistent with the 802.11 standard. Having said that, the IEEE 802.11 Tx Power section should include a reference to the MIB variable. Proposed new text: from: Current Tx Power This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW. to: Current Tx Power This attribute contains the transmit output power in mW, as described in the dot11CurrentTxPowerLevel MIB variable. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 9:40 AM > To: Dorothy Stanley > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to :One > issue,please discuss: I suggest some change for "11.9.18. > IEEE 802.11 TxPower" > > > Hi All, > > This request is based on the assumption that the WTP's power > level will actually be set in dBm. If that is true, why not > use dBm (or > centi-dBm) as the unit for this attribute, instead of mW (or 0.1 mW)? > > Margaret > > On Oct 5, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Dorothy Stanley wrote: > > > All, > > > > The proposed resolution to the 11.9.18 comment is: Accept the > > commenters suggestion, change > > > > > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in mW." > > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in 0.1mW." > > > > > > Comments welcome, > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dorothy > > > > On 9/25/06, zhaoyujin 31390 wrote: Section > > 11.9.18 has following discripiton, I suggestion some change > > > > From "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in mW." > > to "Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit > > output power in 0.1mW." > > > > The reason is: normally WLAN will use dbm. The conversion > between dbm > > and mw can not satisfy this TLV requirement. If capwap > transimit one > > mw value, the device can't precise get corresponding dbm. > > > > For example > > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 1mw > > 2 dbm<----->1.6mw ----> 2mw > > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 2mw > > > > This time, if capwap transmits 2 mw, system doesn't know > it is 2dbm > > or 3 dbm. > > > > The following is suggestion: > > For example > > 1 dbm<----->1.3mw ----> 13mw > > 2 dbm<-----> 1.6mw ----> 16mw > > 3 dbm<----->2.0mw ----> 20mw > > > > Thanks > > Michael > > > > > The Tx power message element value is bi-directional. When > > sent by > > > the WTP, it contains the current power level of the radio in > > > question. When sent by the AC, it contains the power level the > > WTP > > > MUST adhere to. > > > > > > 0 1 2 > 3 > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > > 9 0 1 > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > > +-+-+ > > > | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Tx > > Power | > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > > +-+-+ > > > > > > Type: 1041 for IEEE 802.11 Tx Power > > > > > > Length: 4 > > > > > > Radio ID: An 8-bit value representing the radio to configure. > > > > > > Reserved: MUST be set to zero > > > > > > Current Tx Power: This attribute contains the transmit output > > power > > > in mW. > > > > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from > > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity > whose address > > is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any > > way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, > > reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended > > recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, > > please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and > delete it! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:47:20 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzDk-0002lv-QT for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:47:20 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzDj-0001XU-9M for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:47:20 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07EC398051 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFD4430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E04D3980B9 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF513980CC for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:09 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="1857099053:sNHT1415841238" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99Hg9am019936; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:09 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HfsP7004119; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E894C@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 144 - Need length value forvendor-specific payload Thread-Index: AcbfQ02sg1NxyP/NR1CzZBy/HHZkpgMe8Zqg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:08.0599 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E317E70:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 144 - Need length value forvendor-specific payload X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1883407022==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1883407022== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E132947" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E132947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why? The CAPWAP Message Element header already includes a length. This will cause the said message element to have two length fields. =20 I disagree with the change request. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:05 PM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 144 - Need length value forvendor-specific payload =09 =09 I propose to resolve this issue by accepting the recommendation to add a length field to the vendor-specific element. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E132947 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why?=20 The CAPWAP Message Element header already includes a length. This will = cause the=20 said message element to have two length fields.
 
I=20 disagree with the change request.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = September 23,=20 2006 12:05 PM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] = Proposed=20 resolution to Issue 144 - Need length value forvendor-specific=20 payload

I propose to resolve this issue by accepting the recommendation = to add a=20 length field to the vendor-specific element.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E132947-- --===============1883407022== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1883407022==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:47:23 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzDn-0002m7-2j for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:47:23 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzDl-0001XZ-G6 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:47:23 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113F5398116 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F769430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2643A3980B5 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFCB3980B3 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:07 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563232:sNHT88222252" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99Hg7rQ022894; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:07 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HfZP9003999; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:07 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8949@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issues 72, 73, 108, 181, and 190. Thread-Index: AcbfQeKMfyUP0SjYRh6tcN8kscMZzgMexf4A From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:07.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D8008C0:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.459 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issues 72, 73, 108, 181, and 190. X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0368309842==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0368309842== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3D546D27" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3D546D27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, =20 I'm quite confused by this request. First, the WTP already sends back a response message when it receives the request. Why can't we simply embed the status code in that response message? I don't understand the need for a new message. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:55 AM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issues 72, 73, 108, 181, and 190. =09 =09 These issues all have to do with the configuration process and error handing of that process.=20 =20 I propose to resolve these comments by doing the following: 1) Add a add a Configuration Status Acknowledgement Frame. The WTP would send this frame back with a status code to indicate success or failure of its ability to apply the configuration. =20 2) The configuration update response could be modified to include any message elements that could not be applied by the WTP. =20 3) In the case of a configuration message that exceeds the MTU between the WTP and the AC, the CAPWAP fragmentation mechanism would be allow the message to be fragmented by the AC and reassembled by the WTP. I don't think there needs to be any updates to CAPWAP to address this issue.=20 =20 Cheers, =20 Mike ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3D546D27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
 
I'm=20 quite confused by this request. First, the WTP already sends back a = response=20 message when it receives the request. Why can't we simply embed the = status code=20 in that response message? I don't understand the need for a new=20 message.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = September 23,=20 2006 11:55 AM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] = Proposed=20 resolution to issues 72, 73, 108, 181, and 190.

These issues all have to do with the configuration process and = error=20 handing of that process.
 
I propose to resolve these comments by doing the following:
1) Add a add a Configuration Status Acknowledgement Frame. = The WTP=20 would send this frame back with a status code to indicate success or = failure=20 of its ability to apply the configuration.
 
2) The configuration update response could be modified to include = any=20 message elements that could not be applied by the WTP.
 
3) In the case of a configuration message that exceeds the MTU = between=20 the WTP and the AC, the CAPWAP fragmentation mechanism would be allow = the=20 message to be fragmented by the AC and reassembled by the WTP. I don't = think=20 there needs to be any updates to CAPWAP to address this issue.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3D546D27-- --===============0368309842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0368309842==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:47:44 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzE8-0003m3-Fu for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:47:44 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzE6-0001eW-KW for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:47:44 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E138439811E for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81FC430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF011448016 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA121448014 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:39:34 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329561920:sNHT159185506" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HdYgJ018241; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:34 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HdYOV002685; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:26 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:25 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8939@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 145 "Need additional detailfor how a STA session is created" /was:Re: Packet flows fornew STA session Thread-Index: AcbkEoNvdSntQRedR8utBQA19CT1TQHsHtBQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:39:26.0282 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD71E2A0:01C6EBC9] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: Behcet Sarikaya , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 145 "Need additional detailfor how a STA session is created" /was:Re: Packet flows fornew STA session X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0837245716==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7e267523e0685e5aa2dbbdde4b659686 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0837245716== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DD412A6F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DD412A6F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:53 PM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: Behcet Sarikaya; capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 145 "Need additional detailfor how a STA session is created" /was:Re: Packet flows fornew STA session =09 =09 All, =20 Issue 145 is listed below: There is a lot of detail missing in CAPWAP describing how a STA session is created for both splitMAC and localMAC. It would be quite useful if someone would take figures 5 and 7 and add the detail. The proposed resolution to Issue 145 is: Close with no change to the text. Figures 5 and 7 are intended to provide an illustration of the division of =09 labor in the local and split-MAC cases, rather than a comprehensive description of session establishment. The lists of message elements are included in the text. Comments welcome, Thanks, Dorothy On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro wrote:=20 David, =20 I created issue number 145 to track this issue. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =09 =20 =09 On 6/23/06, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:=20 Hi David, Roaming with key caching and other new developments is a work item for possible rechartering. I think the present text is OK.=20 =09 Regards, =20 =09 --behcet =09 =09 =09 ----- Original Message ---- From: David T. Perkins < dperkins@dsperkins.com > To: capwap@frascone.com Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 1:16:46 PM Subject: [Capwap] Packet flows for new STA session=20 =09 =09 HI, =09 There is a lot of detail missing in CAPWAP describing how a STA session is created for both splitMAC and localMAC. It would be quite useful if someone would take figures 5 and 7 and add the detail.=20 =09 Regards, /david t. perkins=20 =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =09 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =20 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =09 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DD412A6F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 agree.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2006=20 2:53 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc: Behcet = Sarikaya;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to = Issue=20 145 "Need additional detailfor how a STA session is created" /was:Re: = Packet=20 flows fornew STA session

All,
 
Issue 145  is listed below:
There is a lot of detail missing in CAPWAP describing
how a STA session is created for both splitMAC and
localMAC. It would be quite useful if someone would
take figures 5 and 7 and add the detail.
The proposed =
resolution to Issue 145 is:
Close with no change to the text. =
Figures 5 and 7 are
intended to provide an illustration of the = division of
labor in the local and split-MAC cases, rather than
a = comprehensive description of session establishment.
The lists of = message elements are included in the text.
Comments =
welcome,
Thanks,
Dorothy
On 6/30/06, Michael=20 Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com= >=20 wrote:=20
David,
 
I created issue = number 145 to track this issue.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike

 
On 6/23/06, Behcet=20 Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com > wrote:=20
Hi=20 David,
  Roaming with key caching and other new = developments is a=20 work item for possible rechartering. I think the present text is = OK.=20

Regards,
 

--behcet


-----=20 Original Message ----
From: David T. Perkins <=20 dperkins@dsperkins.com>
To: capwap@frascone.com
Sent: Friday, June 23, = 2006=20 1:16:46 PM
Subject: [Capwap] Packet flows for new STA session =

HI,

There is a lot of detail missing in CAPWAP=20 describing
how a STA session is created for both splitMAC=20 and
localMAC. It would be quite useful if someone would
take = figures=20 5 and 7 and add the detail.

Regards,
/david t. perkins=20 =

_________________________________________________________________=
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please = visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20
 

=

________________________________________= _________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please = visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =



_____________________= ____________________________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DD412A6F-- --===============0837245716== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0837245716==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:52:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzIx-0005hm-CH for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:52:43 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzIw-0002XN-1v for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:52:43 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B273980B7 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B7F430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B7D3980DD for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C11398083 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="1857099076:sNHT169004306" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgBLY019960; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HgAOX004412; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:09 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:09 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E894F@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames Thread-Index: AcbieUNFx2Heibn8RoyIXIp63oas0QAIb/jgAkkkjMA= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Cheng Hong" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:09.0971 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F02D830:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2068705550==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 935fcc3d6c448ae30077dce3cfc94471 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2068705550== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3EE03383" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3EE03383 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even in the case of EDCA, there is no guarantees that the STA can send an 802.1X frame with a high priority UP field. This is especially true if the WTP requires authorization prior to making use of the QoS class. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:20 PM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames =09 =09 Hi Mike, =20 In the HCCA case, the TID value is in the range of 8 to 15, and according to clause 6.1.1.1.1 point b: =20 "b) QoS subtypes, in which case the QAP shall infer the UP value from the TID in the QoS Control field directly for TID values between 0 and 7. For TID values between 8 and 15, the QAP shall extract the UP value in the UP subfield of the TS Info field in the associated TSPEC or from the UP field in the associated TCLAS (traffic classification) element, as applicable." =20 It seems that the WTP needs to do much more to obtain the actual UP value. In case the TSPEC or TCLAS elemets are located at the AC, how would the WTP get the UP value in the HCCA case? =20 Or is there any place that prevents sending EAPOL frames using HCCA? If that is the case, it is not a problem. But, then again, all the data traffic sent using HCCA will have difficulty to obtain the correct priority in CAPWAP delivery. =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:23 AM To: Cheng Hong Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames =09 =09 Cheng, =20 In the HCCA case, the TID case should work as well. I don't see why it wouldn't. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =09 =20 On 9/26/06, Cheng Hong wrote:=20 Hi Mike,=20 =20 It seems OK to use TID in the EDCA case. If the HCCA is used, would the TID still be meaningful in mapping the priority? (Haven't check the 802.11 standards in detail).=20 =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong=20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:24 AM=20 =09 To: Cheng Hong Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames =09 =20 =09 Cheng, =20 Thanks for you input. =20 Also, that's a good question. In my opinion, the CAPWAP priority should be based on the TID(UP). Which means yes, the WTP would need to read into the QoS control field. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =20 On 9/25/06, Cheng Hong wrote:=20 Hi Mike, =20 In this case, I tend to agree with the other Michael on the first point.=20 =20 However, on the mapping 802.11e priority back to CAPWAP priority, I am not really sure how that is done. Is it based on 802.11e AC or TID (UP)? For later case, does it mean the WTP need to read into the QoS Control Field?=20 =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:17 AM To: Cheng Hong Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap=20 =09 Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames =09 =20 =09 Cheng Hong, =20 In the CAPWAP draft, both wireless data and management frames are treated as CAPWAP data frames. Given that, all CAPWAP data traffic would need to go to the same logical instance of the AC. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =20 On 9/24/06, Cheng Hong wrote:=20 Hi Michael & Michael, =20 Sorry if the issue has already been discussed before. Just thinking if the WTP does not differentiate 802.1X frames from normal data frames, would it be possible that the 802.1X frames being forwarded to a different AC instance than the one processing the control/management frames? (in case different ACs are used to process the control and data channel) Is this acceptable? =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:18 AM To: zhaoyujin 31390 Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames=20 =09 =20 =09 Michael, =20 Thanks. Is anybody else opinionated on this feature.=20 =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =09 =20 On 9/23/06, zhaoyujin 31390 wrote:=20 Firstly, I have some doubt one this suggestion. =09 1. If CAPWAP difines like this, AP device must decode the payload frames of 802.11 frames. 2. Another problem, the 802.1x priority should be implement by 802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data frames, it can set 802.11e priority. AP should transfer 802.11e to actual CAPWAP packet priority. =09 So that I think CAPWAP does not need consider the priority of 802.11 data frames payload.=20 =09 Thanks Michael =09 =09 =09 >Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted at the same priority as >IEEE 802.11 Management frames. > >I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages >to "Quality >of Service for IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to >indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher priority. >=20 >Cheers, > >Mike =09 =09 This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email=20 immediately and delete it! =09 =20 Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted at the same priority as IEEE 802.11 Management frames.=20 =20 I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages to "Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher priority. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =09 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3EE03383 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Even=20 in the case of EDCA, there is no guarantees that the STA can send an = 802.1X=20 frame with a high priority UP field. This is especially true if the WTP = requires=20 authorization prior to making use of the QoS class.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Cheng Hong=20 [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = September 27,=20 2006 6:20 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed = resolution=20 to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames

Hi=20 Mike,
 
In=20 the HCCA case, the TID value is in the range of 8 to 15, and according = to=20 clause 6.1.1.1.1 point b:
 
"b) QoS = subtypes, in which=20 case the QAP shall infer the UP value from the TID in the QoS Control=20 field
directly for=20 TID values between 0 and 7. For TID values between 8 and 15, the QAP = shall=20 extract the
UP value in=20 the UP subfield of the TS Info field in the associated TSPEC or from = the UP=20 field in the
associated TCLAS (traffic classification) element, as=20 applicable."
&nbs= p;
It seems that the WTP needs to do much more = to obtain=20 the actual UP value. In case the TSPEC or TCLAS elemets are located at = the AC,=20 how would the WTP get the UP value in the HCCA = case?
&nbs= p;
Or is there any place that prevents sending = EAPOL=20 frames using HCCA? If that is the case, it is not a problem. But, then = again,=20 all the data traffic sent using HCCA will have difficulty to obtain = the=20 correct priority in CAPWAP=20 delivery.
&nbs= p;
cheers
&nbs= p;
Cheng Hong
&nbs= p;
 
 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, = September=20 28, 2006 2:23 AM
To: Cheng Hong
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed=20 resolution to Issue 214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20 frames

Cheng,
 
In the HCCA case, the TID case should work as well. I don't see = why it=20 wouldn't.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike

 
On 9/26/06, Cheng=20 Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>=20 wrote:=20
Hi Mike,=20
 
It seems OK = to use TID in=20 the EDCA case. If the HCCA is used, would the TID still be = meaningful in=20 mapping the priority? (Haven't check the 802.11 standards in = detail).=20
 
cheers
 
Cheng Hong=20


From: = Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ] =
Sent:=20 Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:24 AM=20

To: = Cheng=20 Hong
Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap
Subject: = Re:=20 [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214=20 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20 frames

 
Cheng,
 
Thanks for you input.
 
Also, that's a good question. In my opinion, the CAPWAP = priority=20 should be based on the TID(UP). Which means yes, the WTP = would need=20 to read into the QoS control field.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
 
On 9/25/06, Cheng=20 Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com > = wrote:=20
Hi=20 Mike,
 
In this = case, I tend=20 to agree with the other Michael on the first point.=20
 
However, on the=20 mapping 802.11e priority back to CAPWAP priority, I am = not really=20 sure how that is done. Is it based on 802.11e AC or TID (UP)? = For=20 later case, does it mean the WTP need to read into the QoS = Control=20 Field?
 
cheers
 
Cheng=20 Hong
 
 

From: Michael = Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:17=20 AM
To: Cheng Hong
Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; = capwap=20

Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not = need.:=20 Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE = 802.1X=20 frames

 
Cheng Hong,
 
In the CAPWAP draft, both wireless data and management = frames=20 are treated as CAPWAP data frames. Given that, = all CAPWAP=20 data traffic would need to go to the same logical instance = of the=20 AC.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike


 
On 9/24/06, Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com > = wrote:=20
Hi = Michael &=20 Michael,
 
Sorry if the=20 issue has already been discussed before. Just thinking if = the WTP=20 does not differentiate 802.1X frames from normal data = frames,=20 would it be possible that the 802.1X frames being = forwarded to a=20 different AC instance than the one processing the=20 control/management frames? (in case different ACs are used = to=20 process the control and data channel) Is this=20 acceptable?
 
cheers
 
Cheng=20 Hong
 
 
 


From: Michael = Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com] =
Sent:=20 Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:18 AM
To: = zhaoyujin=20 31390
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: = [Capwap] This=20 is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 = -Prioritization=20 of IEEE 802.1X frames

 
Michael,
 
Thanks. Is anybody else opinionated on this = feature.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike

 
On 9/23/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com > = wrote:=20
Firstly, I have some = doubt one=20 this suggestion.

1. If CAPWAP difines like = this, AP=20 device must decode the payload frames of 802.11 = frames.
2.=20 Another problem, the 802.1x priority should be = implement by=20 802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data frames, it can = set=20 802.11e priority. AP should transfer 802.11e to actual = CAPWAP=20 packet priority.

So that I think CAPWAP does = not need=20 consider the priority of 802.11 data frames payload.=20 =

Thanks
Michael



>Practically=20 speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted at = the same=20 priority as >IEEE 802.11 Management=20 frames.
>
>I will update Section 11.5, = rename=20 Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages = >to=20 "Quality
>of Service for IEEE 802.11 control = messages=20 and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to = >indicate=20 that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher = priority.
>=20
>Cheers,
>
>Mike


This = e-mail and=20 attachments contain confidential information from = HUAWEI,=20 which is intended only for the person or entity whose = address=20 is listed above. Any use of the information contained = herein=20 in any way (including, but not limited to, total or = partial=20 disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons = other=20 than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you = receive=20 this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by = phone or=20 email
immediately and delete = it!

 

Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should = be=20 transmitted at the same priority as IEEE 802.11 = Management=20 frames.
 
I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of = Service for=20 IEEE 802.11 Control Messages to "Quality
of Service = for=20 IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL = frames" and=20 add text to indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent = at a=20 higher priority.
 
Cheers,
 
=
Mike

______________________________________________________= ___________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, = please=20 visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =




<= BR>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3EE03383-- --===============2068705550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============2068705550==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:55:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzLj-0006uQ-A7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:55:35 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzLh-0003AO-OZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:55:35 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5610A3980CB for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE37C4300F7 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FADD3980BC for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601013980CA for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563272:sNHT13862984152" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgBKj022946; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HgAOV004412; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:03 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8946@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 221 - Fix figure 5: remove"(clear text)" Thread-Index: AcbfPLysG8xYaX+oR+yDTWU7r7BUZwMfkyqg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:03.0518 (UTC) FILETIME=[3B2A31E0:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.468 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 221 - Fix figure 5: remove"(clear text)" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0759644496==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0759644496== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3B1F5FD5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3B1F5FD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, =20 The issue is more than simply the figure, and should also include the text that follows the two figures out mention. At one point the Add Station had the "AKM Only" bit, but this has now moved to the "IEEE 802.11 Station Session Key" section. I don't believe that the "Clear Text" should be removed per se, but instead that both the figure and the text be representative of the recent changes in the protocol. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:18 AM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 221 - Fix figure 5: remove"(clear text)" =09 =09 Both figure 5 and figure 7 will to be updated to be consistent with the add mobile message element definition. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3B1F5FD5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
 
The=20 issue is more than simply the figure, and should also include the text = that=20 follows the two figures out mention. At one point the Add Station had = the "AKM=20 Only" bit, but this has now moved to the  "IEEE 802.11 Station = Session=20 Key" section. I don't believe that the "Clear Text" should be = removed per=20 se, but instead that both the figure and the text be representative of = the=20 recent changes in the protocol.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = September 23,=20 2006 11:18 AM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] = Proposed=20 resolution to Issue 221 - Fix figure 5: remove"(clear=20 text)"

Both figure 5 and figure 7 will to be updated to be consistent = with the=20 add mobile message element definition.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3B1F5FD5-- --===============0759644496== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0759644496==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:56:33 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzMf-0007nM-SE for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:56:33 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzMb-0003Lc-LK for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:56:33 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282B93980C2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1714430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6243980B9 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D851398027 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563311:sNHT1867884270" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgE5I010680; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Hg7P5004332; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8952@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request Thread-Index: AcbkBoQ052ehncIxTPK7J3IBXAzXnQHuroJQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "sujay" , "Saravanan Govindan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:11.0553 (UTC) FILETIME=[3FF43D10:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.468 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1025020521==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1fb4c76a9d88e8fb8b791f63f8d1b07f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1025020521== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3FC7779D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3FC7779D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Works for me. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:28 PM To: sujay; Saravanan Govindan Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request =09 =09 All, =20 Below is the proposed resolution to issue 225 (also copied below). =20 Comments welcome. =20 Dorothy =20 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------- Proposed resolution: =20 Insert the following paragraph at the end of section 4.3 "CAPWAP Control Messages" =20 "CAPWAP control messages sent from the WTP to the AC indicate that the WTP is operational, providing an implicit keep-alive=20 mechanism for the WTP. The Echo Request/Echo Response Control channel=20 management messages provide an explicit keep-alive mechanism when other CAPWAP control messages are not exchanged." =20 Also - I notice that the message types in 4.3 are not the same as the message sections. Propose to update the 4.3 list to match the existing text sections: changeFirmware Management to Device Management, add missing Join, Control Channel Management bullet items. =20 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ Issue 225: =20 =20 Hi Scott, =09 I see your point. I agree that any control message serves the purpose of keep alive for the WTP. =09 In this case, I suggest the same text in Section 4.3 (CAPWAP Control Messages) with slight modification; =09 "The exchange of a CAPWAP control message serves as an implicit keep alive mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a CAPWAP control message at the AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where regular CAPWAP control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see Section 7)." =09 Comments? =09 Saravanan From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott [at] hyperthought.com] Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:20 PM To: Saravanan Govindan Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request Hi Saravanan, I thought there was general agreement that if *any* authenticated control traffic (not just an event request) is observed during the echo interval, this is implicit proof of liveness, and no echo request is required for that interval. Having text like what's suggested below (that only references the event request) might lead people to incorrectly conclude that only an event request can obviate the need for an echo exchange. Why should we have text which confers this special status only on the event request, rather than on all/any authenticated control channel traffic? Scott Saravanan Govindan wrote: > All, > > > > I would like to suggest an editorial update to Section 9.5 (WTP Event > Request). > > > > This is based on earlier discussions of how WTP Event Request serves as > an implicit keep alive mechanism for the WTP. I believe this observation > can be made explicit in this section. > > > > I suggest the following after the 1^st paragraph of Section 9.5; > > > > "The exchange of WTP Event Request serves as an implicit keep alive > mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a WTP Event Request message at the > AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where WTP Event Request is > not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see Section 7)." >=20 =20 On 9/25/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20 I have created issue 225 to track this request. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20 Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 10:36 AM To: sujay; Saravanan Govindan; capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request =09 =20 I believe the quoted text is the agreed upon text. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: sujay [mailto:sujayg@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 11:18 PM=20 To: 'Saravanan Govindan'; capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request=20 =09 =20 Saravanan, =20 =20 "The exchange of a CAPWAP control message serves as an implicit keep alive mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a CAPWAP control message at=20 the AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where regular CAPWAP control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see Section 7)."=20 =20 As the understanding is, arrival of *any* authenticated control message obviates the need for an 'echo request' message, to keep up the neighbour as up. I wouldn't prefer the last statement..viz.. "In cases where regular CAPWAP control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see Section 7)." This kind of sounds making the keep alive and control message usage mutually exclusive. Could we put more simpler, " CAPWAP control messages MAY/SHOULD be treated equivalent to an Echo request message=20 received(See Section 7)" , Again noting; WTP event request message is just one of those possible control messages. Regds, Sujay G =09 My Location; =09 http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=3D14.626109,76.959229&spn=3D4.724852,7.525= 085 &t=3Dh&hl=3Den =09 =09 =09 This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!=20 =09 =20 ________________________________ From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com ]=20 Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 8:54 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request=20 =09 =20 All, =20 This is a follow-up on an earlier thread; =20 =09 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03208.html=20 =20 Is the proposal ok for the next draft?=20 =20 Cheers, =09 Saravanan =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20 =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3FC7779D Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Works=20 for me.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2006=20 1:28 PM
To: sujay; Saravanan Govindan
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP = Event=20 Request

All,
 
Below is the proposed resolution to issue 225 (also = copied=20 below).
 
Comments welcome.
 
Dorothy
 
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------
Proposed=20 resolution:
 
Insert the following paragraph at the end of section 4.3 "CAPWAP = Control=20 Messages"
 
"CAPWAP control messages sent from the WTP to the AC indicate = that
the WTP is operational, providing an implicit keep-alive=20
mechanism for the WTP. The Echo Request/Echo Response Control = channel=20
management messages provide an explicit keep-alive mechanism when = other CAPWAP
control messages are not = exchanged."
 
Also - I notice that the message types in = 4.3 are not=20 the same as the
message sections. Propose to update the=20 4.3 list to match the existing text sections:
changeFirmware Management to Device Management,=20 add
missing Join, Control Channel Management bullet=20 items.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------
Issue 225:
 
 
Hi Scott,

I see your point. I agree that any control message serves the purpose of
keep alive for the WTP.

In this case, I suggest the same text in Section 4.3 (CAPWAP Control
Messages) with slight modification;

"The exchange of a CAPWAP control message serves as an implicit keep
alive mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a CAPWAP control message at
the AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where regular CAPWAP
control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see
Section 7)."

Comments?

Saravanan
From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott [at] hyperthought.com]=20 Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:20 PM To: Saravanan Govindan Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Editorial - WTP Event Request Hi Saravanan, I thought there was general agreement that if *any* authenticated=20 control traffic (not just an event request) is observed during the echo=20 interval, this is implicit proof of liveness, and no echo request is=20 required for that interval. Having text like what's suggested below=20 (that only references the event request) might lead people to=20 incorrectly conclude that only an event request can obviate the need for an echo exchange. Why should we have text which confers this special status only on the=20 event request, rather than on all/any authenticated control channel traffic? Scott Saravanan Govindan wrote: > All, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I would like to suggest an editorial update to Section 9.5 (WTP = Event=20 > Request). >=20 > =20 >=20 > This is based on earlier discussions of how WTP Event Request = serves as=20 > an implicit keep alive mechanism for the WTP. I believe this observation=20 > can be made explicit in this section. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I suggest the following after the 1^st paragraph of Section 9.5; >=20 > =20 >=20 > "The exchange of WTP Event Request serves as an implicit keep alive = > mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a WTP Event Request message = at the=20 > AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where WTP Event = Request is=20 > not exchanged, explicit keep alive is used (see Section 7)." >
 

On 9/25/06, Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> = wrote:=20
I have = created issue 225 to track this=20 request.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless = Networking Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 10:36 AM
To: = sujay;=20 Saravanan Govindan; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: = [Capwap]=20 Editorial - WTP Event Request

 
I believe = the quoted text=20 is the agreed upon text.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless = Networking=20 Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: sujay [mailto:sujayg@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 11:18 PM
To: = 'Saravanan Govindan'; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: = [Capwap]=20 Editorial - WTP Event Request

 
Saravanan,
 
<snip> 
"The=20 exchange of a CAPWAP control message serves as an implicit = keep
alive=20 mechanism for the WTP. The arrival of a CAPWAP control message = at=20
the AC indicates the WTP is operational. In cases where = regular=20 CAPWAP
control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep = alive is=20 used (see
Section 7)."
<snip/>
 
As the = understanding=20 is, arrival of *any* authenticated control message=20 obviates
the need = for an 'echo=20 request' message, to keep up the neighbour as=20 up.
 I = wouldn't prefer=20 the last statement..viz..
"In cases = where regular=20 CAPWAP control messages are not exchanged, explicit keep alive = is used=20 (see
Section 7)."
This kind = of sounds=20 making the keep alive and control message usage mutually = exclusive.=20 Could we put
more = simpler, " CAPWAP=20 control messages MAY/SHOULD  be treated equivalent to an = Echo=20 request message
received(See Section=20 7)" ,
Again = noting; WTP event=20 request message is just one of those possible control=20 messages.
Regds,
Sujay G
My Location;
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=3D14.626109,76.959229&= spn=3D4.724852,7.525085&t=3Dh&hl=3Den


This e-mail and attachments contain confidential = information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity = whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained = herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial = disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the = intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in = error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete = it!=20
 


From: Saravanan Govindan = [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com ] =
Sent:=20 Monday, August 28, 2006 8:54 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: = [Capwap]=20 Editorial - WTP Event Request

 

All,

 

This is a = follow-up on an=20 earlier thread;

 

http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03208.html =

 

Is the proposal ok = for the=20 next draft?

 

Cheers,


Saravanan


_________________________________________________________________<= BR>To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20

Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3FC7779D-- --===============1025020521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1025020521==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 13:57:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzNm-00089g-32 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:57:42 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzNi-0003WK-KS for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:57:42 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EC93980A1 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425B9430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3079C3980D2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCE33980D7 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:39:37 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="1857098045:sNHT244556678" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HdbMR018269; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:37 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HdbOb002725; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:25 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:25 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8938@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 163 "WTP Descriptorinformation is not required at Join time" /was Re: Acommentary on CAPWAP-01 operations Thread-Index: AcbkETmbyCYmBckFSum/caEWxlaM9QHsaS4g From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:39:25.0694 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD1829E0:01C6EBC9] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.957 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 163 "WTP Descriptorinformation is not required at Join time" /was Re: Acommentary on CAPWAP-01 operations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1766738814==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2d4a64066b1774fc2641038d4c8545f6 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1766738814== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DCF01A7B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DCF01A7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I feel very strongly that the AC should not be maintainin significant state for the WTP during the discovery phase. So this message element must be included in the join, regardless of whether the discovery was made or not. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:41 PM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 163 "WTP Descriptorinformation is not required at Join time" /was Re: Acommentary on CAPWAP-01 operations =09 =09 All, =20 Issue 163 "WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time" is listed below: 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time. =09 Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is=20 provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it should just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that the firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new firmware to download. =20 The proposed resolution to Issue 163 is: =20 Close with no change to the draft. The WTP descriptor element is included in the optional Discover Request message and the Join Request to indicate the WTP info to the AC. If the Discover Request is not sent, then the Join Request is the first message in which the AC receives this information. =20 Comments welcome. =20 Thanks, =20 Dorothy =20 On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro wrote:=20 David, Pat, =20 I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy hunting! =20 Mike =09 =20 =09 On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20 Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one=20 point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and introducing my own numbering scheme. =09 1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should be) =09 Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more=20 obvious. =09 =09 2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is "yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be=20 added. Would a new message type be created and the additional message element added to it, or the existing type reused?) =09 This is a great question, and one that does need to be addressed in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by=20 including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be rejected. =09 We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20 firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an issue - although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the CAPWAP protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does=20 require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly static, and this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could be useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol behavior.=20 =09 3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message elements can be repeated. =09 Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only=20 once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present. =09 =09 4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I believe so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and events. For configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what happens when one end gets an configuration element it doesn't know about. Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should the complete operation failed?)=20 =09 The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue. If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the=20 message element may be safely ignored. =09 =09 5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each configuration attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified. This needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values".=20 =09 Another good point raised by David. =09 =09 6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements are to be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is difficult to=20 follow. =09 Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document? =09 =09 7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This approach to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.=20 =09 Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what you would like to see? =09 =09 8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named=20 consistently with the following terminology: 1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action) 2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something) =09 Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within=20 which one of your categories? =09 =09 9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all=20 of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 4.5. =09 Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few times and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd like to=20 ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the understanding that we will never make everyone happy. =09 =09 10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be sent and received =09 I do not understand your comment. =09 =09 11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from US-ASCII encoding to UTF-8 encoding. =09 Agreed. =09 12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing wireless=20 interfaces, since wireless does not imply mobile. Can we just use the techie term "STA" instead. =09 I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short. =09 =09 13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information,=20 lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version numbers, which should be in string form. =09 To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in knowing everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever information=20 they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary. =09 To the second point, this is one of those areas where the concept of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is punt to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I agree with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this area. However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address this=20 specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting the mode of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with the introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just feels=20 like we have too many options and I am worried that interoperability will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity). =09 To the last point, I have no issues with including text stating=20 that the version numbers should be in string form. =09 =09 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time. =09 Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is=20 provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it should just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that the firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new firmware to download. =09 =09 15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or an enum? =09 Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the text to read. There are various other similar comments throughout, which I=20 will not repeat here. =09 =09 16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing any info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join,=20 2) don't try to join, 3) try discover on a list of returned ACs) =09 I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list. That=20 said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required, such as the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC indicates it's already at max capacity. I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it implies=20 (2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or configure process, which I believe is right. =09 =09 17) Is AC Name text? =09 Yes, and same with WTP Name. =09 =09 18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20 =09 Disagree. Required for failover. =09 =09 19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a "scratchpad". =09 Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge"=20 made it clear that the information did not derive from any scientific formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe this should be good enough. =09 =09 20) Session is not required =09 I believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS, this is no longer required. =09 =09 21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC can verify =09 The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to change this. =09 =09 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP HW=20 not supported. =09 Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today). =09 =09 23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20 =09 Agreed. =09 =09 24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat. =09 I call it potato.... =09 =09 25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single CAPWAP control frame.=20 =09 We should address this. =09 =09 26) AC Name with Index is all messed up... =09 Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index field is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No=20 inter-AC protocol implied here. =09 =09 27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure. =09 Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data=20 message elements. =09 =09 28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be used. =09 I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we have=20 the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can refine this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need to draw=20 a line in the sand. =09 =09 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed=20 are not clear enough. =09 Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can=20 clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.=20 =09 =09 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID field should be an array. =09 Disagree. =09 =09 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's Country Code is not clear enough. =09 The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999 standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I don't=20 think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the=20 CAPWAP standard. =09 =09 31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration message elements that need to be specified here! =09 Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me what's=20 missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete details on what's missing. =09 =09 32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any configuration=20 change operation may fail and there is no response to the=20 configuration changes specified in this command. =09 There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern. =09 =09 33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State.=20 =09 Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is used by=20 the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. The second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio. =09 =09 34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11 =09 ok =09 =09 35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the value be defined in section 4.5 or 11. =09 Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is.=20 =09 =09 36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed.=20 =09 Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough resiliency in the protocol/service. =09 =09 37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.=20 =09 This was fixed in the -02=20 =09 =09 38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in the join. =09 Not sure this really matters.... =09 =09 39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed like no=20 other configuration data. =09 I do not understand the comment =09 =09 40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11 =09 ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE=20 802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile =09 =09 41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two types of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it is only changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit=20 command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The second model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case, there is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not clear what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP=20 support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for config! =09 CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at the=20 time they are received. I do not believe anything else is required. =09 =09 42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant for=20 this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases =09 ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element. Any suggestions on how to address your issue? =09 =09 43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in=20 the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run" state. Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent after a "config update" request that changes the operational state. However,=20 in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational state change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run" state after config changes." =09 I believe this was addressed in -02.=20 =09 =09 44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, which include: 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the=20 "configure" state. I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state before it even knows how it is configured. =09 2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor=20 term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has already be=20 mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with a default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults". Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does=20 need to be addressed. =09 3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is broken, since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what happens next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean discovery"?=20 This was addressed in -02 =09 =09 45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different "Image Data Request" messages. Which one is determined by which of the three message elements is contained. This is completely silly! There=20 should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the WTP know which image to get? The AC should be making that decision. =09 I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's filename=20 should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed in the next items. =09 =09 46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There=20 needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear what could fail... Reading the image from flash? =09 =09 47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state,=20 the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead "fast track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. With a little more work, we could probably figure out a way to reuse=20 the old DTLS session. =09 To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and what happened if the AC was not longer reachable? =09 =09 48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that=20 indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the block size. =09 But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the protocol works as-is. =09 =09 49) since this operation does not have the block number as a parameter,=20 the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message header sequence number. NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This message element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields:=20 [edited] =09 The control header includes a sequence number, and while we can change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the protocol does work. If it ain't broken... =09 =09 50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! For=20 example, the WTP can run out of space to store the block, or there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as "Image Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match could=20 fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the result.) Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses are paired. =09 We can include a result code =09 =09 51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20 =09 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the protocol does work, so what exactly are you looking for? =09 =09 52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail! There needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 See above comment. =09 53) Reset Request. ... =09 The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed. =09 =09 54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now on. =09 =09 55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the condition remains? =09 Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some text covering that. =09 =09 56) the list of events seems understated!=20 =09 Text and conditions please =09 =09 57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove. =09 Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required. =09 =09 58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on both=20 splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, only the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue as to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also, there=20 are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be included in the message. =09 I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are required. =09 =09 59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one=20 STA. It should be able. =09 No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating specific message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request. =09 =09 60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so=20 this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message element? =09 I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol assumes one mobile per request. =09 =09 61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC? If so, then why is this an 802.11 message element =09 Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize mobile traffic. =09 =09 62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that is 802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be used. =09 To be more specific only.=20 =09 =09 63) note here there are information elements to create, delete, and modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config Request", there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).=20 =09 Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add with a different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed inconsistent, we could change it. =09 =09 64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs=20 seems like it needs a little more work =09 What exactly would you like to see? =09 =09 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =09 =09 =09 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM=20 > To: capwap@frascone.com=20 > Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations > > HI,=20 > > I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in > CAPWAP-01. > > Enjoy, > /david t. perkins=20 > =09 _________________________________________________________________=20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =09 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20 =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DCF01A7B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I feel=20 very strongly that the AC should not be maintainin significant state for = the WTP=20 during the discovery phase. So this message element must be included in = the=20 join, regardless of whether the discovery was made or = not.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2006=20 2:41 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to = Issue=20 163 "WTP Descriptorinformation is not required at Join time" /was Re:=20 Acommentary on CAPWAP-01 operations

All,
 
Issue 163 "WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join = time" =20 is listed below:

14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at = Join=20 time.

<PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's = value in=20 knowing
whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the = more info=20 is
provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it = should
just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it = knows that=20 the
firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no=20 new
firmware to download.
 
The proposed resolution to Issue 163 is:
 
Close with no change to the draft. The WTP descriptor element is=20 included
in the optional Discover Request message and the Join Request = to
indicate the WTP info to the AC. If the Discover Request is not = sent,=20 then
the Join Request is the first message in which the AC receives = this=20 information.
 
Comments welcome.
 
Thanks,
 
Dorothy
 
On 6/30/06, Michael=20 Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com= >=20 wrote:=20
David, Pat,
 
I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy hunting!
 
Mike

 
On 6/27/06, Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com >=20 wrote:=20
Going=20 through David's lengthy document, he has raised an = interesting
number=20 of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one =
point=20 I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, = and
introducing=20 my own numbering scheme.

1) Can message elements be in any = order?=20 (I believe they should be)

<PRC> Yes, and I suspect = we need=20 to include text to make it more
obvious.


2) Are all = specified message elements required? (The obvious answer = is
"yes", but=20 this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what
if = in a new=20 version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be =
added. Would=20 a new message type be created and the additional = message
element added=20 to it, or the existing type reused?)

<PRC> This is a = great=20 question, and one that does need to be addressed
in the spec. = In the=20 Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by
including a = "Mandatory=20 to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose
bit was set, = yet was=20 not recognized, then the request had to = be
rejected.

<PRC>=20 We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20
firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of = an issue=20 -
although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as = the=20 CAPWAP
protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the = WTP.=20 This does
require that the initial part of the state machine = be fairly=20 static, and
this could be an area where the "Mandatory to = implement"=20 bit could be
useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to = older=20 protocol behavior.

3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of=20 indicating which message elements
can be = repeated.

<PRC>=20 Another good point. When we list the message elements, we = should
note=20 whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only =
once)=20 or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.


4) = Can=20 "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I = believe
so for=20 reporting capabilities, statistics, and     = events.=20 For
configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says = what=20 happens
when one end gets an = configuration    =20 element it doesn't know about.
Should it be ignored, and the = other=20 elements processed, or should the
complete=20 operation     failed?)

<PRC> The = "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.
If = an=20 unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, = then
the=20 whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the =
message=20 element may be safely ignored.


5) The config has a = concept of=20 "default value" for each configuration
attribute. However, the = default=20 values are not clearly specified. This
needs to be resolved to = be able=20 to support "default values".

<PRC> Another good = point raised=20 by David.


6) the documentation of which "binding = specific"=20 message elements are to
be included with CAPWAP messages is not = consistent, and is difficult to
follow.

<PRC> Has = this=20 been addressed in the latest (-02) document?


7) There = are some=20 message elements that cause "actions". This approach
to = protocol design=20 is problematic and should be eliminated.

<PRC> Could = you be=20 more specific as well as provide guidance on what you
would = like to=20 see?


8) The message types are inconsistently named, and = do not=20 follow the
conventions of well designed protocols. Can the = operations=20 be named
consistently with the following=20 terminology:
  1) request/response (used to = get/set/perform=20 action)
  2) report/ack (use to tell the other side=20 something)

<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on = which=20 messages fall within
which one of your = categories?


9) Many=20 of the configuration items, and status items are not listed = in
one=20 section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one = for
CAPWAP=20 and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all =
of=20 the time period lengths are identified and specified in section=20 4.5.

<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back = and=20 forth a few times
and before we opt to change the structure of = the=20 document, I'd like to
ensure that we have broad agreement on = what we=20 want - with the
understanding that we will never make everyone=20 happy.


10) each operation should have listed in which = states it=20 can be sent and
received

<PRC> I do not understand = your=20 comment.


11) All strings, such as WTP location, should = be=20 changed from US-ASCII
encoding to UTF-8 = encoding.

<PRC>=20 Agreed.

12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when=20 describing wireless
interfaces, since wireless does not=20 imply      mobile. Can we just = use
the=20 techie term "STA" instead.

<PRC> I agree we should = use the=20 term Station, or STA for short.


13) The WTP Descriptor = message=20 element contains too much information,
lacks clarity on the = WTP=20 encryption field and includes version numbers,
which should be = in=20 string form.

<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I = think=20 there is value in knowing
everything about the WTP. The AC = vendors can=20 expose whatever information
they want, but I don't believe = anything is=20 unnecessary.

<PRC> To the second point, this is one = of those=20 areas where the concept
of the technology binding creates = complexity.=20 Given that we cannot
simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the = only=20 thing we can do is punt
to another section in the technology = binding=20 section. That said, I agree
with Dave that the 802.11 binding = section=20 is too light in this area.
However, I would much prefer that = instead of=20 trying to address this
specific issue, we discuss whether we = should=20 even be supporting the mode
of operation where 802.11i is = performed in=20 the AC - especially with the
introduction of DTLS to secure the = data=20 plane. Right now, it just feels
like we have too many options = and I am=20 worried that interoperability
will be severely impacted (not to = mention=20 protocol complexity).

<PRC> To the last point, I have = no=20 issues with including text stating
that the version numbers = should be=20 in string form.


14) The WTP Descriptor information is = not=20 required at Join time.

<PRC> Well, as far as I can = tell, I=20 think there's value in knowing
whether the WTP can even be = supported by=20 the AC. So the more info is
provided by the WTP, the better = the AC can=20 determine whether it should
just ignore the WTP or not. This = could be=20 done because it knows that the
firmware running on the WTP is = not=20 compatible, and it has no new
firmware to = download.


15) Are=20 the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or=20 an
enum?

<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure = what=20 Dave would prefer the text
to read. There are various other = similar=20 comments throughout, which I
will not repeat = here.


16) The=20 Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing = any
info=20 to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the = AC
should=20 tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join, =
2)=20 don't try to join, 3)=20 = try           &nbs= p;        =20 discover on a list of
returned ACs)

<PRC> I don't = believe=20 there is an issue with sending the AC's
information to the WTP, = but=20 would solicit input from the list. That
said, some of the = information=20 in the AC Descriptor is required, such as
the current load on = the AC.=20 No point is trying to join if he AC
indicates it's already at = max=20 capacity.
<PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the = response,=20 then it implies
(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled = during the=20 join or configure
process, which I believe is = right.


17) Is=20 AC Name text?

<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP=20 Name.


18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20

<PRC> Disagree. Required for = failover.


19) The=20 text does not make it clear that the contents of the = WTP
Location is=20 informative only, and as Dave calls it, a = "scratchpad".

<PRC>=20 Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge" =
made it=20 clear that the information did not derive from any = scientific
formula.=20 The description also states this is a user-defined. I = believe
this=20 should be good enough.


20) Session is not=20 required

<PRC> I believe you may be correct that with = the=20 transition to DTLS,
this is no longer required.


21) = need to=20 send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC
can=20 verify

<PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC = address=20 being the key
that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't = see a need=20 to change
this.


22) Result code in Join Response is = not=20 sufficient, for instance WTP HW
not = supported.

<PRC>=20 Well, the protocol does not require this because the = Discovery
Response=20 would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).


23) = AC=20 IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20

<PRC> Agreed.


24) Change Echo to = Keepalive or=20 heartbeat.

<PRC> I call it potato....


25) = What if=20 all of the message elements do not fit within a single
CAPWAP = control=20 frame.

<PRC> We should address this.


26) = AC Name=20 with Index is all messed up...

<PRC> Not really. You = simply=20 include more than one, and the index field
is clearly the = priority.=20 Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No
inter-AC protocol = implied=20 here.


27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not=20 configure.

<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we = are=20 duplicating this
information across both the WTP Descriptor and = the WTP=20 Board Data
message elements.


28) The WTP Static = IPv4=20 Address should not have the Static bit, but
instead state that = 0.0.0.0 means a = static address is=20 not to be used.

<PRC> I don't have an issue with this = request, but in the end we have
the same function. The reason = why I=20 state this is that we can refine
this protocol until the cows = come=20 home, and at one point we need to draw
a line in the=20 sand.


29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, = and the=20 reasons listed
are not clear enough.

<PRC> = Doesn't really=20 matter whether this is included in the
configuration or the = join, but=20 if the WG agrees to move it. We can
clarify some of the = reasons, as=20 long as it provides value.


30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP = Radio=20 Configuration message element's BSSID
field should be an=20 array.

<PRC> Disagree.


30) The IEEE 802.11 = WTP=20 Radio Configuration message element's Country
Code is not clear = enough.

<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB = element in=20 the 802.11-1999
standard, which very clearly defines the = contents of=20 the field. I don't
think there's value in replicating the = format of=20 this field in the
CAPWAP standard.


31) There seems = like an=20 awful lot of additional configuration message
elements that = need to be=20 specified here!

<PRC> Having built a protocol based = on this,=20 it's not clear to me what's
missing. I think it would be = useful if you=20 provided concrete details on
what's missing.


32)=20 Configuration Status is just plain broken because any = configuration=20
change operation may fail and there is=20 no           = response to=20 the
configuration changes specified in this=20 command.

<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't=20 understand the concern.


33) Use of Change State Event = should=20 instead be Radio Admin State.

<PRC> Perhaps the two = are not=20 described properly. The first is used by
the WTP to inform the = AC that=20 something has occurred with a radio. The
second is used by the = AC to=20 enable/disable a radio.


34) Report Timer needs to be in = section=20 4.5 or 11

<PRC> ok


35) Should Idle Timeout = be per=20 radio, or per WTP, and should the value
be defined in section = 4.5 or=20 11.

<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as = it is.=20


36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be = removed.=20

<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create = enough=20 resiliency in
the protocol/service.


37) How are the = "Rate=20 Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.

<PRC> This was = fixed in=20 the -02


38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the = configuration,=20 but instead in the
join.

<PRC> Not sure this = really=20 matters....


39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange = and is=20 being managed like no
other configuration = data.

<PRC> I=20 do not understand the comment


40) Decryption Error = Report=20 Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11

<PRC> ok, = and note=20 that the information has been moved to the IEEE
802.11 RSNA = Error=20 Report From Mobile


41) Configuration Update Response. = today,=20 there are primarily two types
of configuration models. The = first is=20 when config is changed, it is only
changed in the volatile copy = (the=20 memory or running). An explicit
command is needed to save the = config=20 to nonvolatile storage. The second
model has config both = running=20 (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config
changed when a config = change=20 is made. And there might be a special
command to have a config = change=20 apply to only one. In this case, there
is no need for a "save = config to=20 nonvolatile" command. It is not clear
what is suppose to be = supported=20 here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP
support devices with no or = very=20 limited nonvolatile storage for config!

<PRC> CAPWAP = does not=20 support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The
protocol has the = AC push=20 configs to the WTP, which saves them at the
time they are = received. I=20 do not believe anything else is required.


42) = Configuration=20 Update Response includes the Result Code message
element, which = includes values that do not appear to be relevant for
this = message,=20 and there are plenty of other failure cases

<PRC> ok, = but=20 note that we are sharing a common message element. = Any
suggestions on=20 how to address your issue?


43) Change State Event = Report. This=20 seems a little silly to be sent in
the "configure" state. It = seems=20 only appropriate for the "run" state.
Some might argue that = even in the=20 "run" state it shouldn't be sent after
a "config update" = request that=20 changes the operational state. However,
in the "run" state, it = may=20 take a while to have the operational state
change to follow the = admin=20 state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"
state after config=20 changes."

<PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.=20


44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several = problems,=20 which
include:
   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec = says=20 that this can only be done in
the "run" state. This is silly. = It should=20 also be possible in the
"configure" state.
<PRC> I = wonder why=20 the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state
before it = even=20 knows how it is configured.

   2) the value of=20 "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor
term to = use, since=20 it implies that that each manufacturer can have
different = values. If=20 so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the
config on the = WTP! The=20 problem of "default config values" has already be
mentioned = above.=20 After each config attribute has been defined with a
default = value, then=20 the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".
<PRC> = Yes,=20 you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does =
need to be=20 addressed.

   3) This operation is not defined to = have a=20 response. This is broken,
since any config change can fail. = Also, it is=20 not defined what happens
next. Does this cause the WTP to = reboot an=20 start a "clean discovery"?
<PRC> This was addressed in=20 -02


45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually = three=20 different "Image
Data Request" messages. Which one is=20 = determined          by = which of the
three message elements is contained. This is = completely=20 silly! There
should be three separate operations! = Additionally, how=20 does the WTP know
which image to get? The AC should be making = that=20 decision.

<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device = that=20 knows what it's filename
should be. Why would an AC vendor = know about=20 file naming conventions
used by the WTP vendors? I believe your = other=20 issues are discussed in
the next items.


46) Image = Data=20 Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
needs = to be=20 message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not = clear
what=20 could fail... Reading the image from flash?


47) Image = Data=20 Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state,
the = WTP=20 shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead = "fast
track"=20 a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. = With
a=20 little=20 = more          work, we = could probably figure out a way to reuse
the old DTLS=20 session.

<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive = about the=20 discovery, and what
happened if the AC was not longer=20 reachable?


48) opcode - if this is here, might as well = also=20 have a value that
indicates last block of the image file, = instead of=20 looking at the block
size.

<PRC> But we're just = changing=20 for the sake of changing - the protocol
works = as-is.


49)=20 since this operation does not have the block number as a = parameter,=20
the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message = header
sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide = in-order=20 delivery of
packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember = state.=20 This message
element should be re-engineered to have the = following=20 subfields:
[edited]

<PRC> The control header = includes a=20 sequence number, and while we can
change the current protocol = to match=20 your recommendations, the protocol
does work. If it ain't=20 broken...


50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This=20 operation can fail!  For
example, the WTP can run = out of=20 space to=20 = store          the=20 block, or
there could be a failure in writing the block to = storage. (Or=20 as "Image
Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the = checksum=20 match could
fail.) There needs to be message element that = indicates=20 the result.)
Note: don't need a block number field, since = request and=20 responses are
paired.

<PRC> We can include a = result=20 code


51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20

<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). = Seriously,=20 the protocol
does work, so what exactly are you looking=20 for?


52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This = operation can=20 fail! There
needs to be message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 See above comment.

53) Reset Request. = ...

<PRC> The=20 comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has = changed.


54)=20 Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There = needs
to=20 be message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now=20 on.


55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this = reported if=20 the condition
remains?

<PRC> Only required once, I = think,=20 but we may want to include some text
covering = that.


56) the=20 list of events seems understated!

<PRC> Text and = conditions=20 please


57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -=20 remove.

<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics = capabilities is=20 required.


58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details = of how=20 this works on both
splitMAC and especially localMAC are not = well=20 specified. That is, only
the figures and text in sections = 11.1.1 and=20 11.1.2 provide any clue as
to events that would cause an AC to = send=20 this message type. Also, there
are restrictions on = combinations of=20 parameters that can be included in
the = message.

<PRC> I=20 wonder whether other folks agree that more details are=20 required.


59) it doesn't say if one message can be used = to=20 update more than one
STA. It should be = able.

<PRC> No,=20 otherwise you end up with the problem of associating = specific
message=20 elements with a given mobile. One mobile per = request.


60) IEEE=20 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so =
this=20 message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile=20 message
element?

<PRC> I believe this is to your = previous=20 point, but the protocol assumes
one mobile per = request.


61)=20 IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC?=20 If
so, then why is this an 802.11 message = element

<PRC>=20 Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to = prioritize
mobile=20 traffic.


62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a = new=20 message type that is
802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 = WLANs? It=20 seems like the
existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" = message=20 could be used.

<PRC> To be more specific only.=20


63) note here there are information elements to = create,=20 delete, and
modify WLANs. However, for message type = "(10.1)Mobile=20 Config Request",
there is only add and delete (and the "add" = used to=20 modify).

<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC = to=20 resend a new add with a
different policy. No specific reason, = but if=20 this is deemed
inconsistent, we could change it.


64) = IEEE=20 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs =
seems=20 like it needs a little more work

<PRC> What exactly = would you=20 like to see?


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems



> -----Original = Message-----=20
> From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
> Sent: = Thursday, June 22,=20 2006 4:31 PM
> To: capwap@frascone.com=20
> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01=20 operations
>
> HI,
>
> I've attached a = long file=20 that summarizes the operations in
> = CAPWAP-01.
>
>=20 Enjoy,
> /david t. perkins=20 =
>
_____________________________________________________________= ____=20
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20 visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20

Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap


________________________________________= _________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DCF01A7B-- --===============1766738814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1766738814==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:00:47 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzQl-0000qJ-Tc for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:00:47 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzQj-00045U-GZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:00:47 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17453980A4 for ; 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Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:29 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:28 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E893C@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 170 "Result code in JoinResponse is not sufficient" /was Re: A commentary onCAPWAP-01 operations Thread-Index: AcbkD+VnnTFPCi8rQj2kMlUlTHltKgHstuBA From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:39:29.0016 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF130F80:01C6EBC9] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 170 "Result code in JoinResponse is not sufficient" /was Re: A commentary onCAPWAP-01 operations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0575259555==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6c4a6fb8ad1fcd7af6c721e70b08a400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0575259555== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DEF7DB1F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DEF7DB1F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok with me. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:34 PM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 170 "Result code in JoinResponse is not sufficient" /was Re: A commentary onCAPWAP-01 operations =09 =09 All, =20 Issue 170 is listed below: =20 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP HW not supported. =09 Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).=20 =20 The proposed resolution to Issue 170 is: =20 If Discover Request/Response messages are sent, then the current Result codes are sufficient. But if the Discover Request/Response messages are not sent - they are indicated as optional in the text, then the commenter is correct. =20 Insert the following result code value at the end of 4.4.28: =20 8 Failure (Join Failure, WTP Hardware not supported) =20 =20 Comments welcome. =20 Thanks, =20 Dorothy =09 =20 On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro wrote:=20 David, Pat, =20 I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy hunting! =20 Mike =09 =20 =09 On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20 Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one=20 point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and introducing my own numbering scheme. =09 1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should be) =09 Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more=20 obvious. =09 =09 2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is "yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be=20 added. Would a new message type be created and the additional message element added to it, or the existing type reused?) =09 This is a great question, and one that does need to be addressed in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by=20 including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be rejected. =09 We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20 firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an issue - although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the CAPWAP protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does=20 require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly static, and this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could be useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol behavior.=20 =09 3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message elements can be repeated. =09 Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only=20 once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present. =09 =09 4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I believe so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and events. For configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what happens when one end gets an configuration element it doesn't know about. Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should the complete operation failed?)=20 =09 The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue. If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the=20 message element may be safely ignored. =09 =09 5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each configuration attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified. This needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values".=20 =09 Another good point raised by David. =09 =09 6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements are to be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is difficult to=20 follow. =09 Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document? =09 =09 7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This approach to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.=20 =09 Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what you would like to see? =09 =09 8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named=20 consistently with the following terminology: 1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action) 2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something) =09 Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within=20 which one of your categories? =09 =09 9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all=20 of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 4.5. =09 Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few times and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd like to=20 ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the understanding that we will never make everyone happy. =09 =09 10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be sent and received =09 I do not understand your comment. =09 =09 11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from US-ASCII encoding to UTF-8 encoding. =09 Agreed. =09 12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing wireless=20 interfaces, since wireless does not imply mobile. Can we just use the techie term "STA" instead. =09 I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short. =09 =09 13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information,=20 lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version numbers, which should be in string form. =09 To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in knowing everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever information=20 they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary. =09 To the second point, this is one of those areas where the concept of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is punt to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I agree with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this area. However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address this=20 specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting the mode of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with the introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just feels=20 like we have too many options and I am worried that interoperability will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity). =09 To the last point, I have no issues with including text stating=20 that the version numbers should be in string form. =09 =09 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time. =09 Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is=20 provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it should just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that the firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new firmware to download. =09 =09 15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or an enum? =09 Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the text to read. There are various other similar comments throughout, which I=20 will not repeat here. =09 =09 16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing any info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join,=20 2) don't try to join, 3) try discover on a list of returned ACs) =09 I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list. That=20 said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required, such as the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC indicates it's already at max capacity. I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it implies=20 (2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or configure process, which I believe is right. =09 =09 17) Is AC Name text? =09 Yes, and same with WTP Name. =09 =09 18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20 =09 Disagree. Required for failover. =09 =09 19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a "scratchpad". =09 Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge"=20 made it clear that the information did not derive from any scientific formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe this should be good enough. =09 =09 20) Session is not required =09 I believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS, this is no longer required. =09 =09 21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC can verify =09 The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to change this. =09 =09 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP HW=20 not supported. =09 Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today). =09 =09 23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20 =09 Agreed. =09 =09 24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat. =09 I call it potato.... =09 =09 25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single CAPWAP control frame.=20 =09 We should address this. =09 =09 26) AC Name with Index is all messed up... =09 Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index field is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No=20 inter-AC protocol implied here. =09 =09 27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure. =09 Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data=20 message elements. =09 =09 28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be used. =09 I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we have=20 the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can refine this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need to draw=20 a line in the sand. =09 =09 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed=20 are not clear enough. =09 Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can=20 clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.=20 =09 =09 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID field should be an array. =09 Disagree. =09 =09 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's Country Code is not clear enough. =09 The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999 standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I don't=20 think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the=20 CAPWAP standard. =09 =09 31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration message elements that need to be specified here! =09 Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me what's=20 missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete details on what's missing. =09 =09 32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any configuration=20 change operation may fail and there is no response to the=20 configuration changes specified in this command. =09 There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern. =09 =09 33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State.=20 =09 Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is used by=20 the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. The second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio. =09 =09 34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11 =09 ok =09 =09 35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the value be defined in section 4.5 or 11. =09 Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is.=20 =09 =09 36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed.=20 =09 Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough resiliency in the protocol/service. =09 =09 37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.=20 =09 This was fixed in the -02=20 =09 =09 38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in the join. =09 Not sure this really matters.... =09 =09 39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed like no=20 other configuration data. =09 I do not understand the comment =09 =09 40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11 =09 ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE=20 802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile =09 =09 41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two types of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it is only changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit=20 command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The second model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case, there is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not clear what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP=20 support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for config! =09 CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at the=20 time they are received. I do not believe anything else is required. =09 =09 42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant for=20 this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases =09 ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element. Any suggestions on how to address your issue? =09 =09 43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in=20 the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run" state. Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent after a "config update" request that changes the operational state. However,=20 in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational state change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run" state after config changes." =09 I believe this was addressed in -02.=20 =09 =09 44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, which include: 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the=20 "configure" state. I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state before it even knows how it is configured. =09 2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor=20 term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has already be=20 mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with a default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults". Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does=20 need to be addressed. =09 3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is broken, since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what happens next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean discovery"?=20 This was addressed in -02 =09 =09 45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different "Image Data Request" messages. Which one is determined by which of the three message elements is contained. This is completely silly! There=20 should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the WTP know which image to get? The AC should be making that decision. =09 I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's filename=20 should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed in the next items. =09 =09 46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There=20 needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear what could fail... Reading the image from flash? =09 =09 47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state,=20 the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead "fast track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. With a little more work, we could probably figure out a way to reuse=20 the old DTLS session. =09 To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and what happened if the AC was not longer reachable? =09 =09 48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that=20 indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the block size. =09 But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the protocol works as-is. =09 =09 49) since this operation does not have the block number as a parameter,=20 the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message header sequence number. NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This message element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields:=20 [edited] =09 The control header includes a sequence number, and while we can change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the protocol does work. If it ain't broken... =09 =09 50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! For=20 example, the WTP can run out of space to store the block, or there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as "Image Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match could=20 fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the result.) Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses are paired. =09 We can include a result code =09 =09 51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20 =09 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the protocol does work, so what exactly are you looking for? =09 =09 52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail! There needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 See above comment. =09 53) Reset Request. ... =09 The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed. =09 =09 54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now on. =09 =09 55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the condition remains? =09 Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some text covering that. =09 =09 56) the list of events seems understated!=20 =09 Text and conditions please =09 =09 57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove. =09 Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required. =09 =09 58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on both=20 splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, only the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue as to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also, there=20 are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be included in the message. =09 I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are required. =09 =09 59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one=20 STA. It should be able. =09 No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating specific message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request. =09 =09 60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so=20 this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message element? =09 I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol assumes one mobile per request. =09 =09 61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC? If so, then why is this an 802.11 message element =09 Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize mobile traffic. =09 =09 62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that is 802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be used. =09 To be more specific only.=20 =09 =09 63) note here there are information elements to create, delete, and modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config Request", there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).=20 =09 Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add with a different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed inconsistent, we could change it. =09 =09 64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs=20 seems like it needs a little more work =09 What exactly would you like to see? =09 =09 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =09 =09 =09 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM=20 > To: capwap@frascone.com=20 > Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations > > HI,=20 > > I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in > CAPWAP-01. > > Enjoy, > /david t. perkins=20 > =09 _________________________________________________________________=20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =09 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20 =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DEF7DB1F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ok=20 with me.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2006=20 2:34 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to = Issue=20 170 "Result code in JoinResponse is not sufficient" /was Re: A = commentary=20 onCAPWAP-01 operations

All,
 
Issue 170 is listed below:
 
22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for = instance WTP=20 HW
not supported.

<PRC> Well, the protocol does not = require=20 this because the Discovery
Response would never be sent (as the = protocol=20 stands today).
 
The proposed resolution to Issue 170 is:
 
If  Discover Request/Response messages are sent, then the=20 current
Result codes are sufficient. But if the Discover Request/Response = messages
are not sent - they are indicated as optional in the text, then = the=20 commenter
is correct.
 
Insert the following result code value at the end of = 4.4.28:
 
8  Failure (Join Failure, WTP Hardware not supported)
 
 
Comments welcome.
 
Thanks,
 
Dorothy

 
On 6/30/06, Michael=20 Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com= >=20 wrote:=20
David, Pat,
 
I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy hunting!
 
Mike

 
On 6/27/06, Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com >=20 wrote:=20
Going=20 through David's lengthy document, he has raised an = interesting
number=20 of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one =
point=20 I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, = and
introducing=20 my own numbering scheme.

1) Can message elements be in any = order?=20 (I believe they should be)

<PRC> Yes, and I suspect = we need=20 to include text to make it more
obvious.


2) Are all = specified message elements required? (The obvious answer = is
"yes", but=20 this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what
if = in a new=20 version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be =
added. Would=20 a new message type be created and the additional = message
element added=20 to it, or the existing type reused?)

<PRC> This is a = great=20 question, and one that does need to be addressed
in the spec. = In the=20 Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by
including a = "Mandatory=20 to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose
bit was set, = yet was=20 not recognized, then the request had to = be
rejected.

<PRC>=20 We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20
firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of = an issue=20 -
although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as = the=20 CAPWAP
protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the = WTP.=20 This does
require that the initial part of the state machine = be fairly=20 static, and
this could be an area where the "Mandatory to = implement"=20 bit could be
useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to = older=20 protocol behavior.

3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of=20 indicating which message elements
can be = repeated.

<PRC>=20 Another good point. When we list the message elements, we = should
note=20 whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only =
once)=20 or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.


4) = Can=20 "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I = believe
so for=20 reporting capabilities, statistics, and     = events.=20 For
configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says = what=20 happens
when one end gets an = configuration    =20 element it doesn't know about.
Should it be ignored, and the = other=20 elements processed, or should the
complete=20 operation     failed?)

<PRC> The = "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.
If = an=20 unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, = then
the=20 whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the =
message=20 element may be safely ignored.


5) The config has a = concept of=20 "default value" for each configuration
attribute. However, the = default=20 values are not clearly specified. This
needs to be resolved to = be able=20 to support "default values".

<PRC> Another good = point raised=20 by David.


6) the documentation of which "binding = specific"=20 message elements are to
be included with CAPWAP messages is not = consistent, and is difficult to
follow.

<PRC> Has = this=20 been addressed in the latest (-02) document?


7) There = are some=20 message elements that cause "actions". This approach
to = protocol design=20 is problematic and should be eliminated.

<PRC> Could = you be=20 more specific as well as provide guidance on what you
would = like to=20 see?


8) The message types are inconsistently named, and = do not=20 follow the
conventions of well designed protocols. Can the = operations=20 be named
consistently with the following=20 terminology:
  1) request/response (used to = get/set/perform=20 action)
  2) report/ack (use to tell the other side=20 something)

<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on = which=20 messages fall within
which one of your = categories?


9) Many=20 of the configuration items, and status items are not listed = in
one=20 section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one = for
CAPWAP=20 and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all =
of=20 the time period lengths are identified and specified in section=20 4.5.

<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back = and=20 forth a few times
and before we opt to change the structure of = the=20 document, I'd like to
ensure that we have broad agreement on = what we=20 want - with the
understanding that we will never make everyone=20 happy.


10) each operation should have listed in which = states it=20 can be sent and
received

<PRC> I do not understand = your=20 comment.


11) All strings, such as WTP location, should = be=20 changed from US-ASCII
encoding to UTF-8 = encoding.

<PRC>=20 Agreed.

12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when=20 describing wireless
interfaces, since wireless does not=20 imply      mobile. Can we just = use
the=20 techie term "STA" instead.

<PRC> I agree we should = use the=20 term Station, or STA for short.


13) The WTP Descriptor = message=20 element contains too much information,
lacks clarity on the = WTP=20 encryption field and includes version numbers,
which should be = in=20 string form.

<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I = think=20 there is value in knowing
everything about the WTP. The AC = vendors can=20 expose whatever information
they want, but I don't believe = anything is=20 unnecessary.

<PRC> To the second point, this is one = of those=20 areas where the concept
of the technology binding creates = complexity.=20 Given that we cannot
simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the = only=20 thing we can do is punt
to another section in the technology = binding=20 section. That said, I agree
with Dave that the 802.11 binding = section=20 is too light in this area.
However, I would much prefer that = instead of=20 trying to address this
specific issue, we discuss whether we = should=20 even be supporting the mode
of operation where 802.11i is = performed in=20 the AC - especially with the
introduction of DTLS to secure the = data=20 plane. Right now, it just feels
like we have too many options = and I am=20 worried that interoperability
will be severely impacted (not to = mention=20 protocol complexity).

<PRC> To the last point, I have = no=20 issues with including text stating
that the version numbers = should be=20 in string form.


14) The WTP Descriptor information is = not=20 required at Join time.

<PRC> Well, as far as I can = tell, I=20 think there's value in knowing
whether the WTP can even be = supported by=20 the AC. So the more info is
provided by the WTP, the better = the AC can=20 determine whether it should
just ignore the WTP or not. This = could be=20 done because it knows that the
firmware running on the WTP is = not=20 compatible, and it has no new
firmware to = download.


15) Are=20 the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or=20 an
enum?

<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure = what=20 Dave would prefer the text
to read. There are various other = similar=20 comments throughout, which I
will not repeat = here.


16) The=20 Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing = any
info=20 to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the = AC
should=20 tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join, =
2)=20 don't try to join, 3)=20 = try           &nbs= p;        =20 discover on a list of
returned ACs)

<PRC> I don't = believe=20 there is an issue with sending the AC's
information to the WTP, = but=20 would solicit input from the list. That
said, some of the = information=20 in the AC Descriptor is required, such as
the current load on = the AC.=20 No point is trying to join if he AC
indicates it's already at = max=20 capacity.
<PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the = response,=20 then it implies
(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled = during the=20 join or configure
process, which I believe is = right.


17) Is=20 AC Name text?

<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP=20 Name.


18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20

<PRC> Disagree. Required for = failover.


19) The=20 text does not make it clear that the contents of the = WTP
Location is=20 informative only, and as Dave calls it, a = "scratchpad".

<PRC>=20 Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge" =
made it=20 clear that the information did not derive from any = scientific
formula.=20 The description also states this is a user-defined. I = believe
this=20 should be good enough.


20) Session is not=20 required

<PRC> I believe you may be correct that with = the=20 transition to DTLS,
this is no longer required.


21) = need to=20 send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC
can=20 verify

<PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC = address=20 being the key
that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't = see a need=20 to change
this.


22) Result code in Join Response is = not=20 sufficient, for instance WTP HW
not = supported.

<PRC>=20 Well, the protocol does not require this because the = Discovery
Response=20 would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).


23) = AC=20 IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20

<PRC> Agreed.


24) Change Echo to = Keepalive or=20 heartbeat.

<PRC> I call it potato....


25) = What if=20 all of the message elements do not fit within a single
CAPWAP = control=20 frame.

<PRC> We should address this.


26) = AC Name=20 with Index is all messed up...

<PRC> Not really. You = simply=20 include more than one, and the index field
is clearly the = priority.=20 Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No
inter-AC protocol = implied=20 here.


27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not=20 configure.

<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we = are=20 duplicating this
information across both the WTP Descriptor and = the WTP=20 Board Data
message elements.


28) The WTP Static = IPv4=20 Address should not have the Static bit, but
instead state that = 0.0.0.0 means a = static address is=20 not to be used.

<PRC> I don't have an issue with this = request, but in the end we have
the same function. The reason = why I=20 state this is that we can refine
this protocol until the cows = come=20 home, and at one point we need to draw
a line in the=20 sand.


29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, = and the=20 reasons listed
are not clear enough.

<PRC> = Doesn't really=20 matter whether this is included in the
configuration or the = join, but=20 if the WG agrees to move it. We can
clarify some of the = reasons, as=20 long as it provides value.


30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP = Radio=20 Configuration message element's BSSID
field should be an=20 array.

<PRC> Disagree.


30) The IEEE 802.11 = WTP=20 Radio Configuration message element's Country
Code is not clear = enough.

<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB = element in=20 the 802.11-1999
standard, which very clearly defines the = contents of=20 the field. I don't
think there's value in replicating the = format of=20 this field in the
CAPWAP standard.


31) There seems = like an=20 awful lot of additional configuration message
elements that = need to be=20 specified here!

<PRC> Having built a protocol based = on this,=20 it's not clear to me what's
missing. I think it would be = useful if you=20 provided concrete details on
what's missing.


32)=20 Configuration Status is just plain broken because any = configuration=20
change operation may fail and there is=20 no           = response to=20 the
configuration changes specified in this=20 command.

<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't=20 understand the concern.


33) Use of Change State Event = should=20 instead be Radio Admin State.

<PRC> Perhaps the two = are not=20 described properly. The first is used by
the WTP to inform the = AC that=20 something has occurred with a radio. The
second is used by the = AC to=20 enable/disable a radio.


34) Report Timer needs to be in = section=20 4.5 or 11

<PRC> ok


35) Should Idle Timeout = be per=20 radio, or per WTP, and should the value
be defined in section = 4.5 or=20 11.

<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as = it is.=20


36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be = removed.=20

<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create = enough=20 resiliency in
the protocol/service.


37) How are the = "Rate=20 Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.

<PRC> This was = fixed in=20 the -02


38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the = configuration,=20 but instead in the
join.

<PRC> Not sure this = really=20 matters....


39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange = and is=20 being managed like no
other configuration = data.

<PRC> I=20 do not understand the comment


40) Decryption Error = Report=20 Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11

<PRC> ok, = and note=20 that the information has been moved to the IEEE
802.11 RSNA = Error=20 Report From Mobile


41) Configuration Update Response. = today,=20 there are primarily two types
of configuration models. The = first is=20 when config is changed, it is only
changed in the volatile copy = (the=20 memory or running). An explicit
command is needed to save the = config=20 to nonvolatile storage. The second
model has config both = running=20 (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config
changed when a config = change=20 is made. And there might be a special
command to have a config = change=20 apply to only one. In this case, there
is no need for a "save = config to=20 nonvolatile" command. It is not clear
what is suppose to be = supported=20 here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP
support devices with no or = very=20 limited nonvolatile storage for config!

<PRC> CAPWAP = does not=20 support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The
protocol has the = AC push=20 configs to the WTP, which saves them at the
time they are = received. I=20 do not believe anything else is required.


42) = Configuration=20 Update Response includes the Result Code message
element, which = includes values that do not appear to be relevant for
this = message,=20 and there are plenty of other failure cases

<PRC> ok, = but=20 note that we are sharing a common message element. = Any
suggestions on=20 how to address your issue?


43) Change State Event = Report. This=20 seems a little silly to be sent in
the "configure" state. It = seems=20 only appropriate for the "run" state.
Some might argue that = even in the=20 "run" state it shouldn't be sent after
a "config update" = request that=20 changes the operational state. However,
in the "run" state, it = may=20 take a while to have the operational state
change to follow the = admin=20 state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"
state after config=20 changes."

<PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.=20


44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several = problems,=20 which
include:
   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec = says=20 that this can only be done in
the "run" state. This is silly. = It should=20 also be possible in the
"configure" state.
<PRC> I = wonder why=20 the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state
before it = even=20 knows how it is configured.

   2) the value of=20 "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor
term to = use, since=20 it implies that that each manufacturer can have
different = values. If=20 so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the
config on the = WTP! The=20 problem of "default config values" has already be
mentioned = above.=20 After each config attribute has been defined with a
default = value, then=20 the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".
<PRC> = Yes,=20 you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does =
need to be=20 addressed.

   3) This operation is not defined to = have a=20 response. This is broken,
since any config change can fail. = Also, it is=20 not defined what happens
next. Does this cause the WTP to = reboot an=20 start a "clean discovery"?
<PRC> This was addressed in=20 -02


45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually = three=20 different "Image
Data Request" messages. Which one is=20 = determined          by = which of the
three message elements is contained. This is = completely=20 silly! There
should be three separate operations! = Additionally, how=20 does the WTP know
which image to get? The AC should be making = that=20 decision.

<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device = that=20 knows what it's filename
should be. Why would an AC vendor = know about=20 file naming conventions
used by the WTP vendors? I believe your = other=20 issues are discussed in
the next items.


46) Image = Data=20 Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
needs = to be=20 message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not = clear
what=20 could fail... Reading the image from flash?


47) Image = Data=20 Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state,
the = WTP=20 shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead = "fast
track"=20 a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. = With
a=20 little=20 = more          work, we = could probably figure out a way to reuse
the old DTLS=20 session.

<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive = about the=20 discovery, and what
happened if the AC was not longer=20 reachable?


48) opcode - if this is here, might as well = also=20 have a value that
indicates last block of the image file, = instead of=20 looking at the block
size.

<PRC> But we're just = changing=20 for the sake of changing - the protocol
works = as-is.


49)=20 since this operation does not have the block number as a = parameter,=20
the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message = header
sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide = in-order=20 delivery of
packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember = state.=20 This message
element should be re-engineered to have the = following=20 subfields:
[edited]

<PRC> The control header = includes a=20 sequence number, and while we can
change the current protocol = to match=20 your recommendations, the protocol
does work. If it ain't=20 broken...


50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This=20 operation can fail!  For
example, the WTP can run = out of=20 space to=20 = store          the=20 block, or
there could be a failure in writing the block to = storage. (Or=20 as "Image
Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the = checksum=20 match could
fail.) There needs to be message element that = indicates=20 the result.)
Note: don't need a block number field, since = request and=20 responses are
paired.

<PRC> We can include a = result=20 code


51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20

<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). = Seriously,=20 the protocol
does work, so what exactly are you looking=20 for?


52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This = operation can=20 fail! There
needs to be message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 See above comment.

53) Reset Request. = ...

<PRC> The=20 comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has = changed.


54)=20 Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There = needs
to=20 be message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now=20 on.


55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this = reported if=20 the condition
remains?

<PRC> Only required once, I = think,=20 but we may want to include some text
covering = that.


56) the=20 list of events seems understated!

<PRC> Text and = conditions=20 please


57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -=20 remove.

<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics = capabilities is=20 required.


58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details = of how=20 this works on both
splitMAC and especially localMAC are not = well=20 specified. That is, only
the figures and text in sections = 11.1.1 and=20 11.1.2 provide any clue as
to events that would cause an AC to = send=20 this message type. Also, there
are restrictions on = combinations of=20 parameters that can be included in
the = message.

<PRC> I=20 wonder whether other folks agree that more details are=20 required.


59) it doesn't say if one message can be used = to=20 update more than one
STA. It should be = able.

<PRC> No,=20 otherwise you end up with the problem of associating = specific
message=20 elements with a given mobile. One mobile per = request.


60) IEEE=20 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so =
this=20 message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile=20 message
element?

<PRC> I believe this is to your = previous=20 point, but the protocol assumes
one mobile per = request.


61)=20 IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC?=20 If
so, then why is this an 802.11 message = element

<PRC>=20 Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to = prioritize
mobile=20 traffic.


62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a = new=20 message type that is
802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 = WLANs? It=20 seems like the
existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" = message=20 could be used.

<PRC> To be more specific only.=20


63) note here there are information elements to = create,=20 delete, and
modify WLANs. However, for message type = "(10.1)Mobile=20 Config Request",
there is only add and delete (and the "add" = used to=20 modify).

<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC = to=20 resend a new add with a
different policy. No specific reason, = but if=20 this is deemed
inconsistent, we could change it.


64) = IEEE=20 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs =
seems=20 like it needs a little more work

<PRC> What exactly = would you=20 like to see?


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems



> -----Original = Message-----=20
> From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
> Sent: = Thursday, June 22,=20 2006 4:31 PM
> To: capwap@frascone.com=20
> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01=20 operations
>
> HI,
>
> I've attached a = long file=20 that summarizes the operations in
> = CAPWAP-01.
>
>=20 Enjoy,
> /david t. perkins=20 =
>
_____________________________________________________________= ____=20
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20 visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20

Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap


________________________________________= _________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBC9.DEF7DB1F-- --===============0575259555== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0575259555==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:21:10 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzkU-0001XQ-9w for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:21:10 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzbI-0005jX-6v for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:11:41 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AE339816D for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE5A4300F8 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AA43980E6 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EBE3980D2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563307:sNHT2833854722" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgEbr010676; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Hg7P1004332; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8951@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] 802.11 Duplicate Removal in Split MAC Thread-Index: AcbhnnpJ1Jwn3/FhSrGG1rb2ro8HsAKIp43g From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Puneet Agarwal" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:11.0006 (UTC) FILETIME=[3FA0C5E0:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 52 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.373 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] 802.11 Duplicate Removal in Split MAC X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0702203331==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0702203331== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3F7FF111" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3F7FF111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] 802.11 Duplicate Removal in Split MAC =09 =09 In Split MAC (section 11.1.1), I assume that 802.11 Duplicate frame removal is always done by the WTP and a duplicate frame is never forwarded to the AC. Is this a correct assumption? =20 Thanks. =20 -Puneet ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3F7FF111 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Puneet Agarwal=20 [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, = 2006=20 12:04 PM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = 802.11=20 Duplicate Removal in Split MAC

In = Split MAC=20 (section 11.1.1),  I assume that 802.11 Duplicate frame removal = is always=20 done by the WTP and a duplicate frame is never forwarded to the AC. Is = this a=20 correct assumption?
 
Thanks.
 
-Puneet
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3F7FF111-- --===============0702203331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0702203331==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:21:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzkV-0001XQ-0G for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:21:11 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzb7-0005em-3K for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:11:30 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E6B39811C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78BD430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DB83980D2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C006E3980BF for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563244:sNHT240084774" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99Hg8uE010591; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Hg7Ol004332; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:06 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:05 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8947@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 194 - duplicate IPv4 address. Thread-Index: AcbfPnmteF7lIUS/RX2SvQV+LYGIHwMfQF1g From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:06.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[3CC25E10:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.468 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 194 - duplicate IPv4 address. X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2088516948==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2088516948== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3C95B107" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3C95B107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The text needs to be clearer than that, I believe. If you are planning on adding such language, we need to discuss when the WTP considers the event cleared. A WTP that determines a conflict would generate such an event, but it could be that the same event occurs, possible with another host on the network, days later. A single event being triggered the first time would not be sufficient. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:31 AM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 194 - duplicate IPv4 address. =09 =09 I propose that we add a sentence to sections 4.4.19 and 4.4.20 to indicated that the message is transmitted only once. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3C95B107 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 text needs to be clearer than that, I believe. If you are planning on = adding=20 such language, we need to discuss when the WTP considers the event = cleared. A=20 WTP that determines a conflict would generate such an event, but it = could be=20 that the same event occurs, possible with another host on the network, = days=20 later. A single event being triggered the first time would not be=20 sufficient.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = September 23,=20 2006 11:31 AM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] = Proposed=20 resolution to issue 194 - duplicate IPv4 address.

I propose that we add a sentence to sections 4.4.19 and 4.4.20 to = indicated that the message is transmitted only once.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3C95B107-- --===============2088516948== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============2088516948==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:21:17 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzka-0001gX-O5 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:21:16 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzZd-0005Pa-8D for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:09:58 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BD739815B for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B524300F2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BD73980DF for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4723980BF for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563263:sNHT15816100304" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgASf010613; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:10 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Hg2Or004245; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:08 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E894B@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 127 - usage of the session IDfield Thread-Index: AcbfQvt5+QD2y4I+QDa945FxEurB+AMezRHA From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:08.0311 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E058C70:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.468 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 127 - usage of the session IDfield X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1262575885==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1262575885== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3DD78E7D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3DD78E7D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree with this change, and would ask that the editor explain the rationale/need for the Session ID in the CAPWAP header when it is part of the DTLS payload. This will be encrypted, and I therefore fail to understand what its purpose is. The DTLS session itself should be sufficient, no? =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:03 PM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 127 - usage of the session IDfield =09 =09 I propose we adopt David's proposed resolution and add session ID back into the header as described in tracker. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3DD78E7D Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 disagree with this change, and would ask that the editor explain the=20 rationale/need for the Session ID in the CAPWAP header when it is part = of the=20 DTLS payload. This will be encrypted, and I therefore fail to understand = what=20 its purpose is. The DTLS session itself should be sufficient,=20 no?
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = September 23,=20 2006 12:03 PM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] = Proposed=20 resolution to issue 127 - usage of the session = IDfield

I propose we adopt David's proposed resolution and add session ID = back=20 into the header as described in tracker.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3DD78E7D-- --===============1262575885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1262575885==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:21:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzkd-0001io-JK for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:21:19 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzYH-0005Dg-QP for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:08:35 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2844398124 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADADE4300F2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B801448023 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B641448005 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-8.cisco.com ([171.68.10.93]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:39:41 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208"; a="329561986:sNHT66618424" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-8.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99Hdfuu020419; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:41 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HdNOb002528; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:26 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:39:26 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E893A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbppxXG8vlRVt+XTGCZp/uvRyEy0wBuaiJgAAQFBzAAFKYqQA== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Saravanan Govindan" , "Cheng Hong" , "Scott G. Kelly" , "Margaret Wasserman" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:39:26.0897 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDCFBA10:01C6EBC9] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-8.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2bf730a014b318fd3efd65b39b48818c This would require the AC to send additional keying information to the WTP, since message three needs to be authenticated. So I disagree with this proposal. The change is much more sinificant than simply leaving the field zero. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:08 AM > To: Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Hi Cheng Hong, Scott, > > I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. > > In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in > this case and needs to be fixed. > > My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the > WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to > the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then > correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update > Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. > > Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP > to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an > acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of > 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. > > Saravanan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM > To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Hi Scott, > > Some comments below: > > > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring > myself to agree > > with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC > > value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are > > introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling > > implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. > > > > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than > > always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending > that people > > nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, > let's hold > > off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we > > expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell > implementors > > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered > > advice. > > I absolutely agree with you on this point. > > What I was trying to state in my previous emails was: > - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a > solution to this issue. > - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the > draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value > could work (value other than zero may be a problem for > interoperability). > - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger > of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security > consideration section. > - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation > for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP > standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). > > If there is a alternative solution than setting a static > KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it. > > cheers > > Cheng Hong > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM > > To: Margaret Wasserman > > Cc: capwap > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > Considerations > > > > Hi Margaret, > > > > Comments inline below... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: Margaret Wasserman > > >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM > > >To: Scott G Kelly > > >Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > Considerations > > > > > > > > >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal > > >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the > > >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security > > >considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about > something > > >like: > > > > > >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of > the 4-way > > >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more > optimal RSC > > >value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC > > value are > > >outside the scope of this specification. > > > > > >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that > > >implementors figure this out. > > > > > >Margaret > > > > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring > myself to agree > > with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC > > value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are > > introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling > > implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. > > > > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than > > always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending > that people > > nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, > let's hold > > off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we > > expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell > implementors > > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered > > advice. > > > > Scott > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:21:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzki-0001kZ-Ih for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:21:24 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzWI-0004uN-7d for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:06:32 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74BD339811D for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917B44300F5 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225553980E3 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1DC398051 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:12 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563276:sNHT9976799388" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgCvu022956; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:12 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HgCbF026730; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:11 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8953@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 204: More General wirelesssupport /was Re: suggestion for Issue # 204, "More general wireless support" Thread-Index: Acbn0CE1XNgyWyTaQSaM6zBgDZYc4AD8c4cg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:12.0140 (UTC) FILETIME=[404DCEC0:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 204: More General wirelesssupport /was Re: suggestion for Issue # 204, "More general wireless support" X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1978639053==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a3a355dfae86436a50b25410b39c6c18 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1978639053== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.401FAE9F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.401FAE9F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Dorothy's recommendations. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:08 AM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution for Issue 204: More General wirelesssupport /was Re: suggestion for Issue # 204,"More general wireless support" =09 =09 All, =09 Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its components are=20 listed below. =09 Comments please. =09 Thanks, =09 Dorothy =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- =09 1) 4.4.38. WTP Radio Information =09 Comment: As the section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest the=20 =09 following value =09 should be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless=20 =09 technology binding. =09 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. =09 =09 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. =09 4 -=20 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. =09 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. =09 Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the=20 802.11 technology specific radio types to the 802.11 binding, modifying the WTP Radio Information element as follows: =09 IEEE 802.11 Radio Information =09 The IEEE 802.11 radio information message element is used to communicate the =09 radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP. The Discovery Request message MUST include one such message element per radio in the WTP. The Radio- Type field is used by the AC to determine which=20 802.11 technology specific binding is to be used with the WTP. =09 The value contains two fields, as shown. =09 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 =09 =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio ID | Radio Type | =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =09 | Radio Type | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =09 Type: 38 for WTP Radio Information =09 Length: 5 =09 Radio ID: The Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an interface index on the WTP =09 =09 Radio Type: The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present. =20 The following values are supported: =09 1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b radio. =09 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio. =09 4 -=20 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio. =09 8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n radio. =09 0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11n: The 4 radio types indicated are supported in the WTP. =20 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- =09 2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power =09 Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx power are=20 common parameters for RF management. =09 Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter =09 that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however the IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the values defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus are not =09 extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions. =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- 3) Add "WTP radio channel" =09 =09 Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report current channel (AP to AC) or to=20 =09 configure channel (AC to AP). =09 Now,. 11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct=20 =09 Sequence Control =09 has channel configuration information.=20 =09 =09 But I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will provide =09 =09 more common parameter for any wireless technology. =09 0 1 2 3 =09 =09 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 =09 =09 =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =09 | Radio ID | Reserved | Current Channel | =09 =09 =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =09 =09 The commenter suggests the following: 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4=20 The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding. I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20 during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better. If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by protocol. The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.=20 For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter and know current configuration on the WTP radio. If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. =20 IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element. Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. While there may be common elements, it's not clear that the=20 CAPWAP base specification should take on the task of extracting/unifying the common elements across wireless systems.=20 =09 =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------ 4) 11.9.24. IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications =09 Comment: I think it could be moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common event for=20 =09 any wireless technology. =09 Proposed Resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commmenter that a fail alarm indication could be a common event for any wireless technology. Each radio technology may want to =09 have additional information reported with the event however. Not sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at this point. =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- =09 5) 11.9.1. IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN =09 How about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could achieve=20 =09 abstract while make it work =09 for most wireless technology. =09 =09 If it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless service,=20 update wireless service" in the section=20 4.4. =09 Any wireless technology could add its specific parameter in the binding=20 =09 section. =09 =09 The commenter suggests a solution: =09 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4 The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep=20 Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).=20 While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding identifier. The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using ( Probably eventually managed by IANA) =09 Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific and used together with several other message elements to define a WLAN service. =09 The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. It's not clear that there are enough additional elements common to multiple wireless services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. =09 =09 =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- 6) 11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service =09 As per 5), I think we could define "WTP Quality of Service"in the section=20 4.4. =09 Radio ID, Tag Packets and Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of=20 =09 Service". =09 While CWMin and so on could be defined in the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of=20 =09 Service. =09 The commenter suggests the following solution: =09 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of Service" Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service". For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great. Proposed resolution: Close, no change to the draft. The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific and is needed to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 data. =09 The intent of the comment seems to be to have the ability in the CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message element. It's not clear that there are enough elements common to multiple wireless services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this at this time. There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each binding can inlcude if desired. =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------- =09 7. Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4=20 Comment: Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"=20 could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count" and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. =09 Proposed resolution: No change to the draft. Agree with the commenter that many of the statistics are common across wireless technologies. However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined as being the values defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and thus are not extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will define values relative to its definitions. =09 On 9/28/06, young wrote:=20 Hi Pat and all, I used to raise issue #204, and here intend to give solution. 1) Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4 The glossary "wireless service" will be more abstract than "WLAN". Refer to current "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep=20 Radio ID, service ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode these kinds common element (more element maybe put here).=20 While for any specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding identifier. The Wireless binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are using ( Probably eventually managed by IANA) =20 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Radio ID | WLAN ID | MAC Mode | Tunnel Mode +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Wireless binding identifier | =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Type | Length | =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Value... =09 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 It is similar for "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update WLAN". =20 2) Rename "11.9.22. IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as "WTP Quality of Service" Same idea, we could keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of Service". For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. For Tag Packets, if IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be great. =20 3) Add "WTP RF Radio configuration" in the section 4.4=20 The Tx power, radio type, channel assignment and so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless binding. I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base protocol part. Although the protocol already has "WTP Radio Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20 during discovery and join phase. So the separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better. If keep them in one, which element will be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by protocol. The TLV of "WTP RF Radio configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, country code and so on.=20 For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. The "WTP RF Radio configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could configure WTP's RF parameter and know current configuration on the WTP radio. If this way, current "11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control "and "11.9.5. =20 IEEE 802.11 Direct Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related element. =20 4) Redefine "IEEE 802.11 Statistics" as "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4=20 Most case, the wireless binding will be link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"=20 could be put on the section 4.4, except the element like "RTS Success Count" and so on. For any binding, we use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them. =20 Any way, I thought many TLV will change their location as new CAPWAP will be divided into two parts. =20 Cheers =20 Richard (Shiyang) =20 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.401FAE9F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 agree with Dorothy's recommendations.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October = 04, 2006=20 9:08 AM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] Proposed = Resolution=20 for Issue 204: More General wirelesssupport /was Re: suggestion for = Issue #=20 204,"More general wireless support"

All,

Issue 204 and proposed resolutions to its = components=20 are
listed below.

Comments=20 = please.

Thanks,

Dorothy

----------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------
1) 4.4.38.  WTP Radio =
Information

Comment: As the = section should be work for any wireless implement, I suggest the =
following value

should = be moved to 802.11 binding. The value should be defined by wireless =
technology binding.

1 - 802.11b: An IEEE 802.11b = radio.

= 2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio.

4 -=20 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio.

8 - 802.11n: An IEEE 802.11n = radio.

Proposed Resolution: Move the "need to know" the=20 802.11 technology specific
radio types to the 802.11 binding, = modifying the WTP Radio Information element
as follows:

IEEE = 802.11 Radio Information

The IEEE 802.11 radio information = message element is used to communicate the
radio information for each IEEE 802.11 radio on the WTP. The = Discovery Request message MUST
include one such message element = per radio in the WTP. The Radio-
Type field is used by the AC to = determine which=20 802.11 technology
specific binding is to be used with the = WTP.

The value contains two fields, as shown.

0 = 1 2 3
0 1 2 = 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
= | Radio ID | Radio Type |
= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Radio Type |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Type: 38 = for WTP Radio Information

Length: 5

Radio ID: The = Radio Identifier, which typically refers to an
interface index = on the WTP

Radio Type: The type of IEEE 802.11 radio present.
= The following values are supported:

1 - 802.11b: An IEEE = 802.11b radio.

2 - 802.11a: An IEEE 802.11a radio.

= 4 -=20 802.11g: An IEEE 802.11g radio.

8 - 802.11n: An IEEE = 802.11n radio.

0xOF - 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and = 802.11n: The 4 radio types
indicated are supported in the = WTP.
 
-------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------
2) 11.9.18. IEEE 802.11 Tx Power

Comment: I think it could = be moved to the section 4.4, as channel and Tx power are
common = parameters for RF management.

Proposed Resolution: No change to = the draft. Agree with the commenter
that TX power level is a common parameter for RF management; however = the
IEEE 802.11 TX Power field values are defined as being the = values
defined in IEEE 802.11Dot11PhyTxPowerEntry MIB table, and thus = are not
extensible to other bindings. Expect that each binding will = define
values relative to its = definitions.
---------------------------------------------------------= ------------------
3) Add "WTP radio channel"

Comment: As per 2), we could define a TLV to report = current channel (AP to AC) or to
configure channel (AC to AP).

Now,. = 11.9.12. IEEE 802.11 OFDM Control and 11.9.5. IEEE 802.11 Direct =
Sequence Control

has channel configuration information. =

But = I think that a specific TLV for it is better. By this way, 4.4 will = provide

more common parameter for any wireless technology.

0 1 = 2 3

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<= BR style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">
| Radio ID | Reserved | = Current Channel |

= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<= BR>
The commenter = suggests the following:

3)      = Add "WTP RF Radio = configuration"=20 in the section 4.4

The Tx power, radio type, channel = assignment and so=20 on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless=20 binding.

I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base = protocol=20 part.

Although the protocol already has "WTP = Radio=20 Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20

during discovery and join = phase. So the=20 separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better.

If keep them in one, which = element will=20 be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by=20 protocol.

The TLV of = "WTP RF Radio=20 configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, = country=20 code and so on.

For any = binding, we use=20 Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

The "WTP RF = Radio=20 configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could = configure=20 WTP's RF parameter

and know = current=20 configuration on the WTP radio.

If this way, = current=20 "11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 = OFDM=20 Control "and "11.9.5. 

IEEE 802.11 = Direct Sequence=20 Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related=20 element.

 Proposed=20 Resolution: No change to the draft.  While there may be common = elements,=20 it's not clear that the
CAPWAP base specification should take on = the task=20 of extracting/unifying the common elements
across wireless systems. = =


------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------
4) 11.9.24. IEEE 802.11 = WTP Radio Fail Alarm Indications

Comment: I think it could be = moved to the section 4.4, it could be a common event for=20
any wireless technology.

Proposed Resolution: No change to = the draft. Agree with the commmenter
that a fail alarm indication = could be a common event for
any wireless technology. Each radio = technology may want to
have additional information reported with the event however. = Not
sure there is sufficient benefit shown for a common defintiion at = this = point.
---------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------
5) 11.9.1. IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN

How = about we rename "WLAN" as wireless service? By this way, we could = achieve
abstract while make it work

for most wireless technology.

If = it is ok, we could define "add wireless service, delete wireless = service,
update wireless service" in the section=20 4.4.

Any wireless technology could = add its specific parameter in the binding
section.


The commenter = suggests a solution:

1)       = Redefine = 11.9.1 "IEEE=20 802.11 add WLAN" as "Add wireless service", and put it in the section=20 4.4

The = glossary=20 "wireless service" will be more abstract than = "WLAN".

Refer to = current=20 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep

Radio ID, = service ID=20 (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode

these = kinds common=20 element (more element maybe put here).

While for = any=20 specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding=20 identifier.

The = Wireless=20 binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are=20 using

( Probably = eventually=20 managed by IANA)

Proposed resolution: Close, no change to = the=20 draft.
The IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message element is 802.11 specific = and=20 used
together with several other message elements to define a WLAN=20 service.

The intent of the comment seems to be to = have the=20 ability in the
CAPWAP protocol to add a generic wireless service. = It's not=20 clear that
there are enough additional elements common to multiple=20 wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this = at this=20 = time.



---------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------
6) 11.9.22. IEEE = 802.11 WTP Quality of Service

As per 5), I think we could define "WTP = Quality of Service"in the section=20 4.4.

Radio ID, Tag Packets and = Queue Depth could be defined in the "WTP Quality of
Service".

While CWMin and so on could be defined in = the IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of=20
Service.

The = commenter=20 suggests the following solution:

2) Rename = "11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as  "WTP = Quality of=20 Service"

Same = idea, we could=20 keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of=20 Service".

For any = binding, we=20 use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

For Tag = Packets, if=20 IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be = great.

Proposed resolution: Close, no change to = the=20 draft.
The IEEE 802.11 WTP QOS message element is 802.11 specific = and is=20 needed
to convey the CWMin , CWMax and other very specific 802.11 = data.=20

The intent of the comment seems to be to = have the=20 ability in the
CAPWAP protocol to include a "generic QOS" message = element.=20 It's not clear that
there are enough elements common to multiple=20 wireless
services to have a separate CAPWAP level element at this = at this=20 time.
There is at least 1 - the Tag packets type, which each = binding can=20 inlcude=20 = if
desired.

-------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------

7. = Redefine "IEEE=20 802.11 Statistics" as  "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4 =

Comment: Most case, the wireless binding = will be=20 link layer protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 = Statistics"=20

could be put on the section 4.4, except = the element=20 like "RTS Success Count" and so on.

For any binding, we use Wireless binding = identifier=20 to suggest them.

Proposed resolution: No change to the = draft. Agree=20 with the commenter
that many of the statistics are common across = wireless=20 technologies.
However the IEEE 802.11 Statistics values are defined = as=20 being the values
defined in various IEEE 802.11 MIB variables and = thus are=20 not extensible to
other bindings. Expect that each binding will = define=20 values relative to its definitions.


On 9/28/06, young=20 <young@huawei-3com.com>=20 wrote:

Hi Pat = and=20 all,

I used = to raise=20 issue #204, and here = intend to give=20 solution.

1)      =20 Redefine 11.9.1 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" = as "Add=20 wireless service", and put it in the section 4.4

The = glossary=20 "wireless service" will be more abstract than = "WLAN".

Refer = to current=20 "IEEE 802.11 add WLAN" format, we could keep

Radio = ID, service=20 ID (rename "WLAN ID" to it), MAC Mode, tunnel mode

these = kinds common=20 element (more element maybe put here).

While = for any=20 specific wireless binding could follow the Wireless binding=20 identifier.

The = Wireless=20 binding identifier will identify what kinds binding are=20 using

( = Probably eventually=20 managed by IANA)

 

  =20      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 = 9 0 1 2=20 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

      =20 = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<= /FONT>

      =20 |    Radio ID   |    WLAN=20 ID    |        MAC = Mode    | Tunnel = Mode      =20 = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<= /FONT>

      =20 |  =20 =           Wireless binding=20 identifier=20 =             &= nbsp;=20        |

      =20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20

   =20    |        =20 = Type           &nb= sp;   =20 =   |          =   =20 Length          =20  |

    =20 =   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+=20

    =20 =   |          =             &= nbsp;  =20 Value...

    =20 =   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+=20

It is = similar for=20 "IEEE 802.11 deletes WLAN" and "IEEE 802.11 Update = WLAN".

 

2) = Rename=20 "11.9.22.  IEEE 802.11 WTP Quality of Service" as  "WTP = Quality of=20 Service"

Same = idea, we could=20 keep the radio ID, Tag Packets, Queue Depth in the "WTP Quality of=20 Service".

For any = binding, we=20 use Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

For Tag = Packets, if=20 IANA already have some kind assignment, it will be = great.

 

3)     =20 Add "WTP RF Radio=20 configuration" in the section 4.4

The Tx power, radio type, channel = assignment and=20 so on these kind parameter are common for any kind wireless=20 binding.

I suggest CAPWAP define it in the base = protocol=20 part.

Although the protocol already has "WTP = Radio=20 Information", while Tx power these kind Info should not be sent=20

during discovery and join = phase. So the=20 separated "WTP RF Radio configuration" is better.

If keep them in one, which = element will=20 be mandatory in what kind message should be suggested by=20 protocol.

The TLV of = "WTP RF Radio=20 configuration" will include radio ID, radio type, Tx power, Channel, = country=20 code and so on.

For any = binding, we use=20 Wireless binding identifier to suggest them.

The "WTP RF = Radio=20 configuration" could be sent by bi-direction, by this way, AC could=20 configure WTP's RF parameter

and know = current=20 configuration on the WTP radio.

If this way, = current=20 "11.9.18.  IEEE 802.11 Tx Power", "11.9.12.  IEEE 802.11 = OFDM=20 Control "and "11.9.5. 

IEEE 802.11 = Direct=20 Sequence Control" and so on will merely keep the IEEE 802.11 related = element.

 

4)     =20 Redefine "IEEE 802.11 = Statistics" as  "WTP Statistics" in the section 4.4

Most case, the wireless binding will be = link layer=20 protocol, I think most the element in the "IEEE 802.11 Statistics"=20

could be put on the section 4.4, except = the=20 element like "RTS Success Count" and so on.

For any binding, we use Wireless binding = identifier to suggest them.

 

Any way, I thought many TLV will change = their=20 location as new CAPWAP will be divided into two = parts.

 

Cheers

 

Richard =  (Shiyang)

 


____________________= _____________________________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
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Works=20 for me.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, = September 23,=20 2006 12:07 PM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] = Proposed=20 resolution to Issue 188

I do not see a problem with the Add MAC ACL Entry issue as = defined.=20 Unless there is proposed text to this issue, I recommend that we close = it with=20 no changes to the draft.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.3E4EC411-- --===============1599625040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1599625040==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:21:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzlH-0002mE-JN for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:21:59 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzlF-0000Vp-Pm for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:21:59 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DEC73980C2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F8F4300F2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A82398090 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B143980AE for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563316:sNHT2163869620" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgEIX010684; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HgEbH026781; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:12 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8955@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Duplcate IPv6 Address message Element Thread-Index: AcbkC07u28THNQ6jSZ2La9VSUKU0tgHtt/2Q From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:12.0990 (UTC) FILETIME=[40CF81E0:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Duplcate IPv6 Address message Element X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0645394477==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4e5f67c5e230eddf754446d1a2201a4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0645394477== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.409481D9" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.409481D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What would the originator of this comment/issue propose the WTP do if it is using an IP address, and determines another device is also using it. Should it relinquish the address silently and not notify the AC? The question is not what should be done when all is well, but rather when an error occurs. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:02 PM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Duplcate IPv6 Address message Element =09 =09 All, =20 Issue 147 is: =20 As DAD ( Duplicate address detection ) is the integral part of IPv6 protocol=20 so no other host/WTP with same IPv6 address can join the network, therefore=20 section 4.4.20 for duplicate IPv6 address message element is NOT required in=20 CAPWAP and can be deleted ? =20 The proposed resolution to issue 147 is to delete the Duplicate IPv6 Address message element, 4.4.20. =20 Comments please. =20 Thanks, =20 Dorothy On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro wrote:=20 Sachin, =20 I created issue 147 to track this. =20 Mike =09 =20 On 6/26/06, Sachin Dutta < sachind@huawei.com > wrote:=20 =09 Hi All, =20 As DAD ( Duplicate address detection ) is the integral part of IPv6 protocol so no other host/WTP with same IPv6 address can join the network, therefore section 4.4.20 for duplicate IPv6 address message element is NOT required in CAPWAP and can be deleted ? =20 Regards Sachin =20 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20 =09 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =09 =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.409481D9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What=20 would the originator of this comment/issue propose the WTP do if it is = using an=20 IP address, and determines another device is also using it. Should it = relinquish=20 the address silently and not notify the AC? The question is not what = should be=20 done when all is well, but rather when an error = occurs.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2006=20 2:02 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Duplcate IPv6 = Address=20 message Element

All,
 
Issue 147 is:
 
As DAD ( Duplicate address detection ) is the integral part = of IPv6=20 protocol
so no other host/WTP with same IPv6 address can join the = network,=20 therefore
section 4.4.20 for duplicate IPv6 address message = element is NOT=20 required in
CAPWAP and can be deleted ?
 
The proposed resolution to issue 147 is to
delete the Duplicate IPv6 Address message element, 4.4.20.
 
Comments please.
 
Thanks,
 
Dorothy


On 6/30/06, Michael=20 Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com= >=20 wrote:=20
Sachin,
 
I created issue 147 = to track=20 this.
 
Mike

 
On=20 6/26/06, Sachin Dutta < = sachind@huawei.com>=20 wrote:

Hi=20 All,

 

As DAD=20 ( Duplicate address detection ) is the integral part of IPv6 = protocol so=20 no other host/WTP with same IPv6 address can join the network, = therefore=20 section 4.4.20 for = duplicate=20 IPv6 address message element is NOT required in CAPWAP and = can be=20 deleted ?

 

Regards

Sachin

 


________= _________________________________________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
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Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap



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http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.409481D9-- --===============0645394477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0645394477==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:22:30 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzlm-0002oF-44 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:22:30 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzlj-0000cB-Lr for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:22:30 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604033980C2 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56DAF430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBC93980DD for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF8F39803C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="1857099095:sNHT1774416830" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgDrb010668; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:13 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HgDbF026767; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:13 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:13 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8956@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations Thread-Index: AcbkDlsjzLQGeDgQQJyMj6DjL1v+aAHtBSyQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:13.0561 (UTC) FILETIME=[4126A290:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.957 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0024334113==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41df209264c4de480abf9be5e33b69e9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0024334113== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.40F3DFE9" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.40F3DFE9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the current draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a bug? =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations =09 =09 All, =20 Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join" is listed below: 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed are not clear enough. =09 Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value. Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the WTP to provide=20 information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to Issue 177 is=20 to insert the following text at the end of Section 6.1 "Join Request": =20 The following message element may be included in the Join Request message: - WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44. =20 Comments please, =20 Thanks, =20 Dorothy =09 =20 On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro wrote:=20 David, Pat, =20 I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy hunting! =20 Mike =09 =20 =09 On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:=20 Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one=20 point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and introducing my own numbering scheme. =09 1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should be) =09 Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more=20 obvious. =09 =09 2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is "yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be=20 added. Would a new message type be created and the additional message element added to it, or the existing type reused?) =09 This is a great question, and one that does need to be addressed in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by=20 including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be rejected. =09 We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20 firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an issue - although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the CAPWAP protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does=20 require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly static, and this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could be useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol behavior.=20 =09 3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message elements can be repeated. =09 Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only=20 once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present. =09 =09 4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I believe so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and events. For configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what happens when one end gets an configuration element it doesn't know about. Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should the complete operation failed?)=20 =09 The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue. If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the=20 message element may be safely ignored. =09 =09 5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each configuration attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified. This needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values".=20 =09 Another good point raised by David. =09 =09 6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements are to be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is difficult to=20 follow. =09 Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document? =09 =09 7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This approach to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.=20 =09 Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what you would like to see? =09 =09 8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named=20 consistently with the following terminology: 1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action) 2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something) =09 Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within=20 which one of your categories? =09 =09 9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all=20 of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 4.5. =09 Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few times and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd like to=20 ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the understanding that we will never make everyone happy. =09 =09 10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be sent and received =09 I do not understand your comment. =09 =09 11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from US-ASCII encoding to UTF-8 encoding. =09 Agreed. =09 12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing wireless=20 interfaces, since wireless does not imply mobile. Can we just use the techie term "STA" instead. =09 I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short. =09 =09 13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information,=20 lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version numbers, which should be in string form. =09 To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in knowing everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever information=20 they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary. =09 To the second point, this is one of those areas where the concept of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is punt to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I agree with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this area. However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address this=20 specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting the mode of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with the introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just feels=20 like we have too many options and I am worried that interoperability will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity). =09 To the last point, I have no issues with including text stating=20 that the version numbers should be in string form. =09 =09 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time. =09 Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is=20 provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it should just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that the firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new firmware to download. =09 =09 15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or an enum? =09 Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the text to read. There are various other similar comments throughout, which I=20 will not repeat here. =09 =09 16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing any info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join,=20 2) don't try to join, 3) try discover on a list of returned ACs) =09 I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list. That=20 said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required, such as the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC indicates it's already at max capacity. I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it implies=20 (2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or configure process, which I believe is right. =09 =09 17) Is AC Name text? =09 Yes, and same with WTP Name. =09 =09 18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20 =09 Disagree. Required for failover. =09 =09 19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a "scratchpad". =09 Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge"=20 made it clear that the information did not derive from any scientific formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe this should be good enough. =09 =09 20) Session is not required =09 I believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS, this is no longer required. =09 =09 21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC can verify =09 The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to change this. =09 =09 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP HW=20 not supported. =09 Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today). =09 =09 23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20 =09 Agreed. =09 =09 24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat. =09 I call it potato.... =09 =09 25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single CAPWAP control frame.=20 =09 We should address this. =09 =09 26) AC Name with Index is all messed up... =09 Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index field is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No=20 inter-AC protocol implied here. =09 =09 27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure. =09 Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data=20 message elements. =09 =09 28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be used. =09 I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we have=20 the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can refine this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need to draw=20 a line in the sand. =09 =09 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed=20 are not clear enough. =09 Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can=20 clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.=20 =09 =09 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID field should be an array. =09 Disagree. =09 =09 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's Country Code is not clear enough. =09 The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999 standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I don't=20 think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the=20 CAPWAP standard. =09 =09 31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration message elements that need to be specified here! =09 Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me what's=20 missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete details on what's missing. =09 =09 32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any configuration=20 change operation may fail and there is no response to the=20 configuration changes specified in this command. =09 There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern. =09 =09 33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State.=20 =09 Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is used by=20 the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. The second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio. =09 =09 34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11 =09 ok =09 =09 35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the value be defined in section 4.5 or 11. =09 Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is.=20 =09 =09 36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed.=20 =09 Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough resiliency in the protocol/service. =09 =09 37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.=20 =09 This was fixed in the -02=20 =09 =09 38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in the join. =09 Not sure this really matters.... =09 =09 39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed like no=20 other configuration data. =09 I do not understand the comment =09 =09 40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11 =09 ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE=20 802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile =09 =09 41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two types of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it is only changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit=20 command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The second model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case, there is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not clear what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP=20 support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for config! =09 CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at the=20 time they are received. I do not believe anything else is required. =09 =09 42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant for=20 this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases =09 ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element. Any suggestions on how to address your issue? =09 =09 43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in=20 the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run" state. Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent after a "config update" request that changes the operational state. However,=20 in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational state change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run" state after config changes." =09 I believe this was addressed in -02.=20 =09 =09 44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, which include: 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the=20 "configure" state. I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state before it even knows how it is configured. =09 2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor=20 term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has already be=20 mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with a default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults". Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does=20 need to be addressed. =09 3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is broken, since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what happens next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean discovery"?=20 This was addressed in -02 =09 =09 45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different "Image Data Request" messages. Which one is determined by which of the three message elements is contained. This is completely silly! There=20 should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the WTP know which image to get? The AC should be making that decision. =09 I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's filename=20 should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed in the next items. =09 =09 46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There=20 needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear what could fail... Reading the image from flash? =09 =09 47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state,=20 the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead "fast track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. With a little more work, we could probably figure out a way to reuse=20 the old DTLS session. =09 To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and what happened if the AC was not longer reachable? =09 =09 48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that=20 indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the block size. =09 But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the protocol works as-is. =09 =09 49) since this operation does not have the block number as a parameter,=20 the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message header sequence number. NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This message element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields:=20 [edited] =09 The control header includes a sequence number, and while we can change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the protocol does work. If it ain't broken... =09 =09 50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! For=20 example, the WTP can run out of space to store the block, or there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as "Image Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match could=20 fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the result.) Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses are paired. =09 We can include a result code =09 =09 51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20 =09 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the protocol does work, so what exactly are you looking for? =09 =09 52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail! There needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 See above comment. =09 53) Reset Request. ... =09 The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed. =09 =09 54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There needs to be message element that indicates the result. =09 I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now on. =09 =09 55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the condition remains? =09 Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some text covering that. =09 =09 56) the list of events seems understated!=20 =09 Text and conditions please =09 =09 57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove. =09 Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required. =09 =09 58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on both=20 splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, only the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue as to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also, there=20 are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be included in the message. =09 I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are required. =09 =09 59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one=20 STA. It should be able. =09 No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating specific message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request. =09 =09 60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so=20 this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message element? =09 I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol assumes one mobile per request. =09 =09 61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC? If so, then why is this an 802.11 message element =09 Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize mobile traffic. =09 =09 62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that is 802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be used. =09 To be more specific only.=20 =09 =09 63) note here there are information elements to create, delete, and modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config Request", there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).=20 =09 Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add with a different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed inconsistent, we could change it. =09 =09 64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs=20 seems like it needs a little more work =09 What exactly would you like to see? =09 =09 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =09 =09 =09 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM=20 > To: capwap@frascone.com=20 > Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations > > HI,=20 > > I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in > CAPWAP-01. > > Enjoy, > /david t. perkins=20 > =09 _________________________________________________________________=20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =09 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20 =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.40F3DFE9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state on = the WTP=20 after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the = current=20 draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a=20 bug?
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2006=20 2:22 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to = Issue=20 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on = CAPWAP-01=20 operations

All,
 
Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"
is listed below:
29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs =
in the Join, and the reasons listed
are not clear enough.

<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.
Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the=20 WTP to provide
information to the AC about its stability, the proposed = resolution to=20 Issue 177 is
to insert the following text at the end of
Section 6.1 "Join Request":
 
The following message element may be included in the Join Request = message:
- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.
 
Comments please,
 
Thanks,
 
Dorothy

 
On 6/30/06, Michael=20 Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com= >=20 wrote:=20
David, Pat,
 
I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy hunting!
 
Mike

 
On 6/27/06, Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com >=20 wrote:=20
Going=20 through David's lengthy document, he has raised an = interesting
number=20 of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one =
point=20 I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, = and
introducing=20 my own numbering scheme.

1) Can message elements be in any = order?=20 (I believe they should be)

<PRC> Yes, and I suspect = we need=20 to include text to make it more
obvious.


2) Are all = specified message elements required? (The obvious answer = is
"yes", but=20 this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what
if = in a new=20 version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be =
added. Would=20 a new message type be created and the additional = message
element added=20 to it, or the existing type reused?)

<PRC> This is a = great=20 question, and one that does need to be addressed
in the spec. = In the=20 Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by
including a = "Mandatory=20 to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose
bit was set, = yet was=20 not recognized, then the request had to = be
rejected.

<PRC>=20 We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the=20
firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of = an issue=20 -
although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as = the=20 CAPWAP
protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the = WTP.=20 This does
require that the initial part of the state machine = be fairly=20 static, and
this could be an area where the "Mandatory to = implement"=20 bit could be
useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to = older=20 protocol behavior.

3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of=20 indicating which message elements
can be = repeated.

<PRC>=20 Another good point. When we list the message elements, we = should
note=20 whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only =
once)=20 or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.


4) = Can=20 "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I = believe
so for=20 reporting capabilities, statistics, and     = events.=20 For
configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says = what=20 happens
when one end gets an = configuration    =20 element it doesn't know about.
Should it be ignored, and the = other=20 elements processed, or should the
complete=20 operation     failed?)

<PRC> The = "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.
If = an=20 unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, = then
the=20 whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the =
message=20 element may be safely ignored.


5) The config has a = concept of=20 "default value" for each configuration
attribute. However, the = default=20 values are not clearly specified. This
needs to be resolved to = be able=20 to support "default values".

<PRC> Another good = point raised=20 by David.


6) the documentation of which "binding = specific"=20 message elements are to
be included with CAPWAP messages is not = consistent, and is difficult to
follow.

<PRC> Has = this=20 been addressed in the latest (-02) document?


7) There = are some=20 message elements that cause "actions". This approach
to = protocol design=20 is problematic and should be eliminated.

<PRC> Could = you be=20 more specific as well as provide guidance on what you
would = like to=20 see?


8) The message types are inconsistently named, and = do not=20 follow the
conventions of well designed protocols. Can the = operations=20 be named
consistently with the following=20 terminology:
  1) request/response (used to = get/set/perform=20 action)
  2) report/ack (use to tell the other side=20 something)

<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on = which=20 messages fall within
which one of your = categories?


9) Many=20 of the configuration items, and status items are not listed = in
one=20 section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one = for
CAPWAP=20 and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all =
of=20 the time period lengths are identified and specified in section=20 4.5.

<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back = and=20 forth a few times
and before we opt to change the structure of = the=20 document, I'd like to
ensure that we have broad agreement on = what we=20 want - with the
understanding that we will never make everyone=20 happy.


10) each operation should have listed in which = states it=20 can be sent and
received

<PRC> I do not understand = your=20 comment.


11) All strings, such as WTP location, should = be=20 changed from US-ASCII
encoding to UTF-8 = encoding.

<PRC>=20 Agreed.

12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when=20 describing wireless
interfaces, since wireless does not=20 imply      mobile. Can we just = use
the=20 techie term "STA" instead.

<PRC> I agree we should = use the=20 term Station, or STA for short.


13) The WTP Descriptor = message=20 element contains too much information,
lacks clarity on the = WTP=20 encryption field and includes version numbers,
which should be = in=20 string form.

<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I = think=20 there is value in knowing
everything about the WTP. The AC = vendors can=20 expose whatever information
they want, but I don't believe = anything is=20 unnecessary.

<PRC> To the second point, this is one = of those=20 areas where the concept
of the technology binding creates = complexity.=20 Given that we cannot
simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the = only=20 thing we can do is punt
to another section in the technology = binding=20 section. That said, I agree
with Dave that the 802.11 binding = section=20 is too light in this area.
However, I would much prefer that = instead of=20 trying to address this
specific issue, we discuss whether we = should=20 even be supporting the mode
of operation where 802.11i is = performed in=20 the AC - especially with the
introduction of DTLS to secure the = data=20 plane. Right now, it just feels
like we have too many options = and I am=20 worried that interoperability
will be severely impacted (not to = mention=20 protocol complexity).

<PRC> To the last point, I have = no=20 issues with including text stating
that the version numbers = should be=20 in string form.


14) The WTP Descriptor information is = not=20 required at Join time.

<PRC> Well, as far as I can = tell, I=20 think there's value in knowing
whether the WTP can even be = supported by=20 the AC. So the more info is
provided by the WTP, the better = the AC can=20 determine whether it should
just ignore the WTP or not. This = could be=20 done because it knows that the
firmware running on the WTP is = not=20 compatible, and it has no new
firmware to = download.


15) Are=20 the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or=20 an
enum?

<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure = what=20 Dave would prefer the text
to read. There are various other = similar=20 comments throughout, which I
will not repeat = here.


16) The=20 Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing = any
info=20 to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the = AC
should=20 tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join, =
2)=20 don't try to join, 3)=20 = try           &nbs= p;        =20 discover on a list of
returned ACs)

<PRC> I don't = believe=20 there is an issue with sending the AC's
information to the WTP, = but=20 would solicit input from the list. That
said, some of the = information=20 in the AC Descriptor is required, such as
the current load on = the AC.=20 No point is trying to join if he AC
indicates it's already at = max=20 capacity.
<PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the = response,=20 then it implies
(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled = during the=20 join or configure
process, which I believe is = right.


17) Is=20 AC Name text?

<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP=20 Name.


18) Primary Discovery are not required.=20

<PRC> Disagree. Required for = failover.


19) The=20 text does not make it clear that the contents of the = WTP
Location is=20 informative only, and as Dave calls it, a = "scratchpad".

<PRC>=20 Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge" =
made it=20 clear that the information did not derive from any = scientific
formula.=20 The description also states this is a user-defined. I = believe
this=20 should be good enough.


20) Session is not=20 required

<PRC> I believe you may be correct that with = the=20 transition to DTLS,
this is no longer required.


21) = need to=20 send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC
can=20 verify

<PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC = address=20 being the key
that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't = see a need=20 to change
this.


22) Result code in Join Response is = not=20 sufficient, for instance WTP HW
not = supported.

<PRC>=20 Well, the protocol does not require this because the = Discovery
Response=20 would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).


23) = AC=20 IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.=20

<PRC> Agreed.


24) Change Echo to = Keepalive or=20 heartbeat.

<PRC> I call it potato....


25) = What if=20 all of the message elements do not fit within a single
CAPWAP = control=20 frame.

<PRC> We should address this.


26) = AC Name=20 with Index is all messed up...

<PRC> Not really. You = simply=20 include more than one, and the index field
is clearly the = priority.=20 Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No
inter-AC protocol = implied=20 here.


27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not=20 configure.

<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we = are=20 duplicating this
information across both the WTP Descriptor and = the WTP=20 Board Data
message elements.


28) The WTP Static = IPv4=20 Address should not have the Static bit, but
instead state that = 0.0.0.0 means a = static address is=20 not to be used.

<PRC> I don't have an issue with this = request, but in the end we have
the same function. The reason = why I=20 state this is that we can refine
this protocol until the cows = come=20 home, and at one point we need to draw
a line in the=20 sand.


29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, = and the=20 reasons listed
are not clear enough.

<PRC> = Doesn't really=20 matter whether this is included in the
configuration or the = join, but=20 if the WG agrees to move it. We can
clarify some of the = reasons, as=20 long as it provides value.


30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP = Radio=20 Configuration message element's BSSID
field should be an=20 array.

<PRC> Disagree.


30) The IEEE 802.11 = WTP=20 Radio Configuration message element's Country
Code is not clear = enough.

<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB = element in=20 the 802.11-1999
standard, which very clearly defines the = contents of=20 the field. I don't
think there's value in replicating the = format of=20 this field in the
CAPWAP standard.


31) There seems = like an=20 awful lot of additional configuration message
elements that = need to be=20 specified here!

<PRC> Having built a protocol based = on this,=20 it's not clear to me what's
missing. I think it would be = useful if you=20 provided concrete details on
what's missing.


32)=20 Configuration Status is just plain broken because any = configuration=20
change operation may fail and there is=20 no           = response to=20 the
configuration changes specified in this=20 command.

<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't=20 understand the concern.


33) Use of Change State Event = should=20 instead be Radio Admin State.

<PRC> Perhaps the two = are not=20 described properly. The first is used by
the WTP to inform the = AC that=20 something has occurred with a radio. The
second is used by the = AC to=20 enable/disable a radio.


34) Report Timer needs to be in = section=20 4.5 or 11

<PRC> ok


35) Should Idle Timeout = be per=20 radio, or per WTP, and should the value
be defined in section = 4.5 or=20 11.

<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as = it is.=20


36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be = removed.=20

<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create = enough=20 resiliency in
the protocol/service.


37) How are the = "Rate=20 Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.

<PRC> This was = fixed in=20 the -02


38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the = configuration,=20 but instead in the
join.

<PRC> Not sure this = really=20 matters....


39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange = and is=20 being managed like no
other configuration = data.

<PRC> I=20 do not understand the comment


40) Decryption Error = Report=20 Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11

<PRC> ok, = and note=20 that the information has been moved to the IEEE
802.11 RSNA = Error=20 Report From Mobile


41) Configuration Update Response. = today,=20 there are primarily two types
of configuration models. The = first is=20 when config is changed, it is only
changed in the volatile copy = (the=20 memory or running). An explicit
command is needed to save the = config=20 to nonvolatile storage. The second
model has config both = running=20 (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config
changed when a config = change=20 is made. And there might be a special
command to have a config = change=20 apply to only one. In this case, there
is no need for a "save = config to=20 nonvolatile" command. It is not clear
what is suppose to be = supported=20 here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP
support devices with no or = very=20 limited nonvolatile storage for config!

<PRC> CAPWAP = does not=20 support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The
protocol has the = AC push=20 configs to the WTP, which saves them at the
time they are = received. I=20 do not believe anything else is required.


42) = Configuration=20 Update Response includes the Result Code message
element, which = includes values that do not appear to be relevant for
this = message,=20 and there are plenty of other failure cases

<PRC> ok, = but=20 note that we are sharing a common message element. = Any
suggestions on=20 how to address your issue?


43) Change State Event = Report. This=20 seems a little silly to be sent in
the "configure" state. It = seems=20 only appropriate for the "run" state.
Some might argue that = even in the=20 "run" state it shouldn't be sent after
a "config update" = request that=20 changes the operational state. However,
in the "run" state, it = may=20 take a while to have the operational state
change to follow the = admin=20 state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"
state after config=20 changes."

<PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.=20


44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several = problems,=20 which
include:
   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec = says=20 that this can only be done in
the "run" state. This is silly. = It should=20 also be possible in the
"configure" state.
<PRC> I = wonder why=20 the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state
before it = even=20 knows how it is configured.

   2) the value of=20 "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor
term to = use, since=20 it implies that that each manufacturer can have
different = values. If=20 so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the
config on the = WTP! The=20 problem of "default config values" has already be
mentioned = above.=20 After each config attribute has been defined with a
default = value, then=20 the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".
<PRC> = Yes,=20 you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does =
need to be=20 addressed.

   3) This operation is not defined to = have a=20 response. This is broken,
since any config change can fail. = Also, it is=20 not defined what happens
next. Does this cause the WTP to = reboot an=20 start a "clean discovery"?
<PRC> This was addressed in=20 -02


45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually = three=20 different "Image
Data Request" messages. Which one is=20 = determined          by = which of the
three message elements is contained. This is = completely=20 silly! There
should be three separate operations! = Additionally, how=20 does the WTP know
which image to get? The AC should be making = that=20 decision.

<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device = that=20 knows what it's filename
should be. Why would an AC vendor = know about=20 file naming conventions
used by the WTP vendors? I believe your = other=20 issues are discussed in
the next items.


46) Image = Data=20 Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
needs = to be=20 message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not = clear
what=20 could fail... Reading the image from flash?


47) Image = Data=20 Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state,
the = WTP=20 shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead = "fast
track"=20 a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. = With
a=20 little=20 = more          work, we = could probably figure out a way to reuse
the old DTLS=20 session.

<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive = about the=20 discovery, and what
happened if the AC was not longer=20 reachable?


48) opcode - if this is here, might as well = also=20 have a value that
indicates last block of the image file, = instead of=20 looking at the block
size.

<PRC> But we're just = changing=20 for the sake of changing - the protocol
works = as-is.


49)=20 since this operation does not have the block number as a = parameter,=20
the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message = header
sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide = in-order=20 delivery of
packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember = state.=20 This message
element should be re-engineered to have the = following=20 subfields:
[edited]

<PRC> The control header = includes a=20 sequence number, and while we can
change the current protocol = to match=20 your recommendations, the protocol
does work. If it ain't=20 broken...


50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This=20 operation can fail!  For
example, the WTP can run = out of=20 space to=20 = store          the=20 block, or
there could be a failure in writing the block to = storage. (Or=20 as "Image
Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the = checksum=20 match could
fail.) There needs to be message element that = indicates=20 the result.)
Note: don't need a block number field, since = request and=20 responses are
paired.

<PRC> We can include a = result=20 code


51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief=20

<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). = Seriously,=20 the protocol
does work, so what exactly are you looking=20 for?


52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This = operation can=20 fail! There
needs to be message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 See above comment.

53) Reset Request. = ...

<PRC> The=20 comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has = changed.


54)=20 Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There = needs
to=20 be message element that indicates=20 = the          result.
<PRC>=20 I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now=20 on.


55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this = reported if=20 the condition
remains?

<PRC> Only required once, I = think,=20 but we may want to include some text
covering = that.


56) the=20 list of events seems understated!

<PRC> Text and = conditions=20 please


57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have -=20 remove.

<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics = capabilities is=20 required.


58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details = of how=20 this works on both
splitMAC and especially localMAC are not = well=20 specified. That is, only
the figures and text in sections = 11.1.1 and=20 11.1.2 provide any clue as
to events that would cause an AC to = send=20 this message type. Also, there
are restrictions on = combinations of=20 parameters that can be included in
the = message.

<PRC> I=20 wonder whether other folks agree that more details are=20 required.


59) it doesn't say if one message can be used = to=20 update more than one
STA. It should be = able.

<PRC> No,=20 otherwise you end up with the problem of associating = specific
message=20 elements with a given mobile. One mobile per = request.


60) IEEE=20 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so =
this=20 message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile=20 message
element?

<PRC> I believe this is to your = previous=20 point, but the protocol assumes
one mobile per = request.


61)=20 IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC?=20 If
so, then why is this an 802.11 message = element

<PRC>=20 Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to = prioritize
mobile=20 traffic.


62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a = new=20 message type that is
802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 = WLANs? It=20 seems like the
existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" = message=20 could be used.

<PRC> To be more specific only.=20


63) note here there are information elements to = create,=20 delete, and
modify WLANs. However, for message type = "(10.1)Mobile=20 Config Request",
there is only add and delete (and the "add" = used to=20 modify).

<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC = to=20 resend a new add with a
different policy. No specific reason, = but if=20 this is deemed
inconsistent, we could change it.


64) = IEEE=20 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs =
seems=20 like it needs a little more work

<PRC> What exactly = would you=20 like to see?


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems



> -----Original = Message-----=20
> From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
> Sent: = Thursday, June 22,=20 2006 4:31 PM
> To: capwap@frascone.com=20
> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01=20 operations
>
> HI,
>
> I've attached a = long file=20 that summarizes the operations in
> = CAPWAP-01.
>
>=20 Enjoy,
> /david t. perkins=20 =
>
_____________________________________________________________= ____=20
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20 visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=20

Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap


________________________________________= _________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.40F3DFE9-- --===============0024334113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0024334113==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 14:29:27 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzsV-0005Y1-B7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:29:27 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GWzsT-0001zR-CZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:29:27 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211A91448008 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E971D4300F5 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD023980AE for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FDF3980D3 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-8.cisco.com ([171.68.10.93]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,284,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="329563317:sNHT1640828384" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-8.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99HgEjW022119; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99HgEbF026781; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:42:12 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8954@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 137 - Proposal for arevised packet header Thread-Index: AcbjGUFaLBXRUxmORk2YcjlSB4ybRgIqM5Vw From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 17:42:12.0724 (UTC) FILETIME=[40A6EB40:01C6EBCA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-8.cisco.com; header.DKIM-Signature=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=fail ( 57 extraneous bytes; RSA-96 err: "Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\)" ; cisco.com/sjdkim8002 fail; ); header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=neutral X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.459 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 137 - Proposal for arevised packet header X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1898885181==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4fc59e88b356924367ae169e6a06365d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1898885181== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.405B4969" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.405B4969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe we need to wait until a resolution has been made before proceeding with any proposed changes to the packet header. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:11 AM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue 137 - Proposal for arevised packet header =09 =09 Hi Mike, =20 Use of a mux header, (regardless of 1 or 2 ports, not needed if 3 ports are used) is also one solution to the (recently opened Issue 224, regarding the) need to clearly distinguish Discovery frames in the control channel: =20 "I have a basic question regarding the classification of packets exchanged over control channel. It is stated in the draft that AC in Idle state can receive Discovery as well as DTLS clientHello (+other dtls handshake) packets. The=20 clientHello packets are delivered to the SSL layer and Discovery packets are consumed by the CAPWAP. Question is how? The draft assumes some magic way of doing it. Since both of the packets are in plain, and are received on=20 a single udp port, which state/policy/field classifies such packets from one another? Theoretically speaking, WTP can send a discovery packet which is also a valid clientHello packet! Now AC would respond with a discovery=20 response or a clientHello reponse? =09 In thread http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03035.html , Pat talks about the negotiated policy for the appropriate treatment of the received packets. That may=20 mean, if the AC is in join onwards state, it can be assumed that AC will only receive encrypted packets. Though this policy can work, but there would be exceptions in which WTP dies and comes back with a discovery packet. AC still being in join+=20 state, the received packets will be delivered to the SSL layer. Assumptions can be made here that SSL would discard non-dtls packets and with timeouts in picture, WTP and AC would eventually reach a consensus. But is this ok to assume?=20 =09 In the same thread, Perkins suggested the mux header approach for control channel, but it was not acknowledged? Is there some other hidden mechanism for the classification? Or there is some basic point which I miss here?" =20 This issue is noted in the issue 137 text (there is alot of text), and is stated in terms of protected vs unprotected messages, though the note comments that this is essentially the same as identifying the Discover (unprotected contro)l message: =20 NOTE: A CAPWAP MUX header is needed whether or not the same or different UDP ports are used for CAPWAP control and data messages. This is because both CAPWAP data and control messages can be unprotected or protected by=20 DTLS, and the MUX header is needed to distinguish protected from unprotected. Remember that CAPWAP "discovery requests" and "discovery responses" are unprotected, and that all other CAPWAP control=20 message types are protected. =20 The current -02 draft in incomplete in its specification of how=20 Discovery frames are clearly identified. The header definition proposed in issue 137, or a variant - one that differentiates between discovery, control and data CAPWAP messages for example, provides a means to clearly identify Discovery frames. =20 If an implementation has another means - the issue 224 commenter used the term "magic", to=20 disambiguate the frames, that implementation can chose to ignore an added mux field; however the protocol should be explicit. Dorothy =20 On 9/23/06, Michael Montemurro wrote:=20 I don't see why a MUX header is required even if the decision to go with separate control and data ports. I don't see how this header definition is better than what is currently in draft -02.=20 =20 If there are specific edits to the header that are required, I would like to know what they are; otherwise I propose closing this issue. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.405B4969 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 believe we need to wait until a resolution has been made before = proceeding with=20 any proposed changes to the packet header.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September = 28, 2006=20 9:11 AM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to issue = 137 -=20 Proposal for arevised packet header

Hi Mike,
 
Use of a mux header, (regardless of 1 or 2 ports, not = needed if=20 3 ports are used) is also one solution to the (recently = opened
Issue 224, regarding the) need to clearly distinguish Discovery = frames in=20 the control channel:
 
"I have a basic question regarding the = classification of=20 packets exchanged over
control channel. It is stated in the draft = that AC=20 in Idle state can receive
Discovery as well as DTLS clientHello = (+other=20 dtls handshake) packets. The
clientHello packets are delivered to = the SSL=20 layer and Discovery packets are
consumed by the CAPWAP. Question is = how?=20 The draft assumes some magic
way of doing it. Since both of the = packets are=20 in plain, and are received on
a single udp port, which = state/policy/field=20 classifies such packets from one
another? Theoretically speaking, = WTP can=20 send a discovery packet which is
also a valid clientHello packet! = Now AC=20 would respond with a discovery
response or a clientHello=20 reponse?


In thread
http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap/msg03035.html, Pat talks about
the negotiated policy for the = appropriate=20 treatment of the received packets. That may
mean, if the AC is in = join=20 onwards state, it can be assumed that AC will only = receive
encrypted=20 packets. Though this policy can work, but there would be exceptions=20 in
which WTP dies and comes back with a discovery packet. AC still = being in=20 join+
state, the received packets will be delivered to the SSL = layer.=20 Assumptions can be
made here that SSL would discard non-dtls = packets and=20 with timeouts in picture, WTP
and AC would eventually reach a = consensus.=20 But is this ok to assume?

In the same thread, Perkins = suggested the=20 mux header approach for control channel,
but it was not = acknowledged? Is=20 there some other hidden mechanism for the
classification? Or there = is some=20 basic point which I miss here?"
 
This issue is noted in the issue 137 text (there = is alot of=20 text), and
is stated in terms of protected vs unprotected = messages,=20 though the
note comments that this is essentially the = same as=20 identifying the Discover (unprotected
contro)l message:
 
NOTE: A CAPWAP MUX header is needed whether or not the same=20 or
       different UDP ports are = used for=20 CAPWAP control and
       data = messages. This=20 is because both CAPWAP data = and
      =20 control messages can be unprotected or protected by=20
       DTLS, and the MUX header is = needed to=20 distinguish
       protected from=20 unprotected. Remember that = CAPWAP
      =20 "discovery requests" and "discovery responses"=20 are
       unprotected, and that all = other=20 CAPWAP control
       message types = are=20 protected
.
 
The current -02 draft in incomplete in its = specification of=20 how
Discovery frames are clearly identified. = The header=20 definition proposed in issue 137, or a variant = -
one that differentiates between discovery, control = and data=20 CAPWAP messages for example, provides a = means to clearly identify Discovery frames.
 
If an implementation has another means - the = issue 224=20 commenter used the term "magic",  to
disambiguate the frames, that implementation can = chose=20 to ignore an added mux field; however
the protocol should be explicit.

Dorothy


 
On 9/23/06, Michael=20 Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com > wrote:=20
I don't see why a MUX header is required even if the decision = to go=20 with separate control and data ports. I don't see how this header = definition=20 is better than what is currently in draft -02.
 
If there are specific edits to the header that are required, I = would=20 like to know what they are; otherwise I propose closing this = issue.
 
Cheers,
 
=
Mike

______________________________________________________= ___________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBCA.405B4969-- --===============1898885181== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1898885181==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 17:26:49 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX2e9-0002SN-57 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:26:49 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX2e7-0002YP-FC for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:26:49 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F02144808A for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A1D430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF41144800A for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc13.comcast.net (alnrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.225.93]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8896D1448071 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (c-68-49-199-146.hsd1.md.comcast.net[68.49.199.146]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20061009211423b1300l9jkoe>; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 21:14:24 +0000 Message-ID: <452ABBB1.4020400@cs.umd.edu> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:14:25 -0400 From: Charles Clancy User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E893A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E893A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , Saravanan Govindan , Cheng Hong , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 501044f827b673024f6a4cb1d46e67d2 Slight clarification... my previous posts indicated that transporting the PMK to the WTP would break the security model. To accomplish what Saravanan is talking about only requires transporting the KCK after message 2 of the 4-way handshake. In the 11i keying hierarchy, the TK (made up of the KCK, KEK, and PTK) is derived from the PMK based on the 4-way-handshake. We're already transporting the PTK from the AC to the WTP in this scenario for CCMP and TKIP to use. Transporting the KCK too and allowing the WTP to perform the MAC doesn't break the current security model. Now, as to whether or not it makes sense from an implementation standpoint, I'll leave to those with strong opinions than I. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > This would require the AC to send additional keying information to the > WTP, since message three needs to be authenticated. So I disagree with > this proposal. The change is much more sinificant than simply leaving > the field zero. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:08 AM >> To: Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >> >> Hi Cheng Hong, Scott, >> >> I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. >> >> In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in >> this case and needs to be fixed. >> >> My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the >> WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to >> the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then >> correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update >> Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. >> >> Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP >> to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an >> acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of >> 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. >> >> Saravanan >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM >> To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >> >> Hi Scott, >> >> Some comments below: >> >>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring >> myself to agree >>> with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC >>> value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are >>> introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling >>> implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. >>> >>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than >>> always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending >> that people >>> nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, >> let's hold >>> off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we >>> expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell >> implementors >>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered >>> advice. >> I absolutely agree with you on this point. >> >> What I was trying to state in my previous emails was: >> - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a >> solution to this issue. >> - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the >> draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value >> could work (value other than zero may be a problem for >> interoperability). >> - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger >> of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security >> consideration section. >> - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation >> for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP >> standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). >> >> If there is a alternative solution than setting a static >> KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it. >> >> cheers >> >> Cheng Hong >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM >>> To: Margaret Wasserman >>> Cc: capwap >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>> >>> Hi Margaret, >>> >>> Comments inline below... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Margaret Wasserman >>>> Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM >>>> To: Scott G Kelly >>>> Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>>> >>>> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal >>>> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the >>>> protocol portion of the document (as well as the security >>>> considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about >> something >>>> like: >>>> >>>> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of >> the 4-way >>>> 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more >> optimal RSC >>>> value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC >>> value are >>>> outside the scope of this specification. >>>> >>>> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that >>>> implementors figure this out. >>>> >>>> Margaret >>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring >> myself to agree >>> with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC >>> value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are >>> introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling >>> implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. >>> >>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than >>> always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending >> that people >>> nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, >> let's hold >>> off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we >>> expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell >> implementors >>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered >>> advice. >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 18:01:30 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX3Bi-0002Ft-7U for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:01:30 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX2zM-0006LF-6a for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:48:45 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E3C144800A for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E865430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B1B1448070 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908BD1448064 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 14:47:02 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.09,285,1157353200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="445289495:sNHT96533464" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99Ll1pq012617 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:01 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Ll1in004134 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:01 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:01 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8AF3@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question Thread-Index: AcbnXSYmgj+5hOtMSUqeJWF2tPB/VQEeh5Ug From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 21:47:01.0858 (UTC) FILETIME=[740EE420:01C6EBEC] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 43 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1465784355==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1924de3f9fb68e58c31920136007eb1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1465784355== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.73F8B8CF" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.73F8B8CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hmmm.... this seems to be a bug. First of all, why would the WTP have to wait prior to establishing the DTLS session? Why is this simply not automatic? =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 7:31 PM To: Capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question =09 =09 =09 All, =20 Idle to Discovery transition talks about Discovery Interval timer: =20 Idle to Discovery (a): This transition occurs once device initialization is complete. =20 WTP: The WTP enters the Discovery state prior to transmitting the first Discovery Request message (see Section 5.1). Upon entering this state, the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval timer (see Section 4.5). The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount counter to zero (0) (see Section 4.6). The WTP also clears all information from ACs it may have received during a previous Discovery phase. =09 =20 But DiscoveryInterval timer is described as: =20 =09 4.5.1. DiscoveryInterval =20 The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP MUST wait after receiving a Discovery Response, before initiating a DTLS handshake. =20 Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on MaxDiscoveryInterval timer? Also, there is mention of DiscoveryInterval timer even in transition from Discovery to Discovery. =20 4.5.6. MaxDiscoveryInterval =20 The maximum time allowed between sending discovery requests from the interface, in seconds. Must be no less than 2 seconds and no greater than 180 seconds. =20 Default: 20 seconds. =20 Thanks Smitha =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.73F8B8CF Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hmmm.... this seems to be a bug. First of all, why would the = WTP have to=20 wait prior to establishing the DTLS session? Why is this simply not=20 automatic?
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) =
Sent:=20 Tuesday, October 03, 2006 7:31 PM
To:=20 Capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] discovery interval = timer=20 question

All,
 
Idle to = Discovery=20 transition talks about Discovery Interval timer:
 
 Idle=20 to Discovery (a): This transition occurs once=20 device
      initialization is=20 complete.
 
      WTP: The WTP = enters=20 the Discovery state prior to transmitting=20 the
         first = Discovery=20 Request message (see Section 5.1). =20 Upon
         entering this = state,=20 the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval=20 timer
         (see Section = 4.5).  The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount=20 counter
         to zero = (0) (see=20 Section 4.6).  The WTP also clears=20 all
         information = from ACs=20 it may have received during a=20 previous
         Discovery = phase.
 
But = DiscoveryInterval=20 timer is described as:
 

4.5.1.  = DiscoveryInterval
 
   The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP = MUST wait=20 after receiving a
   Discovery Response, before = initiating a DTLS=20 handshake.
 
Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on=20 MaxDiscoveryInterval timer? Also, there is mention of = DiscoveryInterval timer=20 even in transition from Discovery to = Discovery.
 
4.5.6.  = MaxDiscoveryInterval
 
   The maximum time allowed = between sending=20 discovery requests from the
   interface, in = seconds.  Must=20 be no less than 2 seconds and no greater
   than 180=20 seconds.
 
   Default: 20 = seconds.
 
Thanks
Smitha

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.73F8B8CF-- --===============1465784355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1465784355==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 18:03:34 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX3BF-00022H-Hl for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:01:01 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX3A0-0008Cf-Fo for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:59:51 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D226414480BF for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21614430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D711448072 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07148144805C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 14:47:00 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k99Ll0Ch011813; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:00 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k99Ll0in004103; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:00 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:47:00 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8AF2@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 143: Specification for theusage of CERTS for CAPWAP/was CERT issues in CAPWAP-01 Thread-Index: AcbnPTwgQyQ4rGLpQ7uuxjiins45XAEmXnzA From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2006 21:47:00.0460 (UTC) FILETIME=[733992C0:01C6EBEC] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 43 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 143: Specification for theusage of CERTS for CAPWAP/was CERT issues in CAPWAP-01 X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1408918688==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 87bc9a4e89408d8c8661c56a834d56d6 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1408918688== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.730CB001" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.730CB001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm ok with Dorothy's proposed recommendations. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 3:28 PM To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 143: Specification for theusage of CERTS for CAPWAP/was CERT issues in CAPWAP-01 =09 =09 All, =09 Proposed resolutions for the several components of Issue 143 are included below. Issue 143 is also copied below. =09 Comments please. =09 Thanks, =09 Dorothy =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------- 1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky", due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately. I't not sure that the recommendations support this scenario. In general, want to support: 0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP) 1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured 2) continued use of WTP after long time operation 3) continued use in short term deployments (such as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from town to town (setting up and tearing down for for each move), or for the WiFi network used at conferences (such as the IETF). =09 Proposed resolution: Adopt Charles' Clancy's recommendation to=20 Replace the following text: =09 Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to ensure the certificate has not yet expired. If devices have a real- time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates. If no real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD attempt to determine the current time using NTP prior to certificate validation. If neither is available, devices SHOULD verify that the start validity date of its peer's certificate is less than its own certificate's expiration date, and its peer's expiration date is greater than its own start date. Note that failure to check a certificate's temporal validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore devices should make every effort to perform this validation. =09 =09 with =09 =09 Proper validation of certificates typically requires checking to ensure the certificate has not yet expired. If devices have a real-time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity dates.=20 =09 If no real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD make a best-effort attempt to validate the certificate validity dates through other means. Failure to check a certificate's temporal=20 =09 validity can make a device vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks launched using compromised, expired certificates, and therefore devices should make every effort to perform this validation.=20 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- =09 2) The new text suggests the common name in the format "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies that "DOMAIN.NET " is the "administrative domain". To me, "administrative domain" implies the user of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT. (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for "@DOMAIN.NET " added to the common name, and suggest that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also, what is the min depth that a WTP should support?) =09 Proposed Resolution: Adopt David's suggestion to drop the @DOMAIN.NET and add a sentence describing the storage requirements on the WTP and AC: =09 Change from: =09 Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a certificate to a particular device. There are many ways to accomplish this. CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX, followed by an @ symbol, and then an administrative domain. For example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET. During authentication, devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC matches the MAC specified in the CAPWAP header, and that the domain in both the AC and WTP certificates match. =09 to=20 Another important part of certificate authentication is binding a certificate to a particular device. There are many ways to accomplish this. CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX, for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab. During authentication, devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC address matches the MAC address specified in the CAPWAP header. If this mechanism is used, the ACs SHOULD maintain list of all authorized WTP MAC addresses and the WTP SHOULD save the AC credential or credential identifier. =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- 3) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned, and MUST have a common name of the ASCII of the MAC address (or other unique ID, such as serial number) =09 Proposed resolution:=20 No change to the text regarding use of self-signed certs. While the use of self-signed certs may not be widespread, there isn't a compelling need to preclude their use in a CAPWAP application.=20 =09 Change the text to require that WTP certs MUST have a common mane of the ASCII of the MAC address: =09 from: CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX, for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab. =09 to =09 Specificaiton of the certificate common name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX, for example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab is REQUIRED for use with the CAPWAP protocol. =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- 4) The Join Request must be updated to include the common name as a message element =09 Proposed resolution: No change to the text. The join request currenly includes the BSSID. Also, since the JOIN occurs inside the DTLS tunnel, it is implicitly bound to the MAC (assuming certs were used for authentication, and=20 this is N/A for preshared key authentication). =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------- 5) specify that WTPs must continue even when it believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside the time window =09 Proposed resolution: No change to the document. That seems equivalent to mandating WTPs never validate timestamps on any AC certs. What if the WTP has a real-time clock and actually CAN distinguish between good and bad certs? =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------- . 6) Tthe CAPWAP protocol must have a new message to install an updated CERT for the WTP. =09 =09 Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP;=20 the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, generation etc.=20 =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------- =09 7) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message to install a CA CERT. =09 Proposed resolution: Defer for consideration in the next version of CAPWAP;=20 the mechanisms for certificate distribution and management are quite complex re: certifcate formats, content, management. =09 =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ Issue 143:=20 =09 =09 =09 1) Cipher Suites for CERTS CAPWAP-01 has the following cipher suites specified: TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA, TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA =09 The above is a mistake, and the following should be used: =09 =09 TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA, TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA, and TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA =09 2) CERT usage type: CAPWAP-01 has the folllwing about CERTS: =20 2.4.4.3 . Certificate Usage =09 Validation of the certificates by the AC and WTP is required so that only an AC may perform the functions of an AC and that only a WTP may perform the functions of a WTP. This restriction of functions to the =09 =09 AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST be distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP. To accomplish this differentiation, the x.509v3 certificates MUST include the Extensions field [11] and MUST include the NetscapeComment [15] =09 =09 extension. =09 For an AC, the value of the NetscapeComment extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP AC Device Certificate". For a WTP, the value of the NetscapeComment extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP WTP Device =09 =09 Certificate". =09 Part of the CAPWAP certificate validation process includes ensuring that the proper string is included in the NetscapeComment extension, and only allowing the CAPWAP session to be established if the =09 =09 extension does not represent the same role as the device validating the certificate. For instance, a WTP MUST NOT accept a certificate whose NetscapeComment field is set to "CAPWAP WTP Device =09 Certificate". =09 =09 Using the "NetscapeComment extension" is not appropriate. =09 3) Selfsigned CERTs, CA CERTs, and validity checking I didn't see anything about whether or not the CERTs were selfsigned. And if not selfsigned, who would sign them. =09 =09 Also, how would a limited resource WTP verify an AC's cert? What if the WTP had no realtime clock (or a realtime clock with an unknown certainty)? =09 4) Common Name in a WTP's CERT I believe that the common name on the WTP's CERT =09 =09 must be the WTP's ID (which would be either the serial number or "base MAC address"), and should be provided as a parameter on the join. =09 Two small, but important issues are: 1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be "wacky", due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery going bad, the clock never set properly. On the other hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty accurately. I't not sure that the recommendations support this scenario. In general, want to support: 0) WTPs with no management interface (other than CAPWAP) 1) first time use of WTP after being manufactured 2) continued use of WTP after long time operation 3) continued use in short term deployments (such as WiFi network used by a Circus that moves from town to town (setting up and tearing down for for each move), or for the WiFi network used at conferences (such as the IETF). 2) The new text suggests the common name in the format "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And implies that "DOMAIN.NET " is the "administrative domain". To me, "administrative domain" implies the user of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer must be required to generate a CERT (and the WTP should come "preloaded" with the CERT), and the user of the WTP should not have to create the WTP CERT. (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should be valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for "@DOMAIN.NET " added to the common name, and suggest that it be removed. (Also, I think that we have now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP to replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be to add CA CERTs for the AC's CERT chain. Also, what is the min depth that a WTP should support?) =09 =09 So, it appears to me that the following changes are required to CAPWAP-01: 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned, and MUST have a common name of the ASCII of the MAC address (or other unique ID, such as serial number) 2) The Join Request must be updated to include the common name as a message element 3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside the time window 4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message to install an updated CERT for the WTP. 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message to install a CA CERT. =09 =09 =09 On 6/15/06, Michael Montemurro < montemurro.michael@gmail.com > wrote:=20 All, =20 I've created issue 143 to deal with this problemm. =09 =20 =09 On 6/15/06, Scott G Kelly wrote:=20 Hi David, =09 Like I said previously, I agree with pretty much everything Charles said, so I won't re-iterate his points, and will instead simply add a=20 few comments below: =09 David T. Perkins wrote: > HI, > > Thank you for responding to my issues. It seems to me that > we are not yet looking at the same problem. So let me try > again.=20 > > What I was trying to point out is that there are a few > VERY common scenarios (use cases) where the clock on > a WTP can be totally wrong. If a WTP is coded so that > it will not continue and communicate with an AC when=20 > it thinks the AC's CERTs are outside the time window, > (or it thinks that it's on CERTs are outside the time > window) then you will have a useless device (a brick). > In many (maybe most) deployments, it costs more to=20 > physically touch a WTP than the equipment cost of the WTP. > At the Dallas IETF, there were APs that were "somewhere" > in the ceiling not doing any useful work, but sending > out beacons with their config'ed SSID because it was=20 > too expensive to find them, and take them down. It > was more cost effective to just new new APs. > > For an AC, it's clock must be accurate, > and it would be OK for it to not proceed if it believes=20 > its CERTs are outside their time window. But, the > CAPWAP protocol should allow an AC to establish > a session with a WTP that has a WACKY clock (and > even a CERT that has expired). NOTE: the AC clock=20 > must be pretty accurate for management (such as > logs) to be useful (or work). The CAPWAP protocol has > support to set the WTP's clock. But it doesn't have support > to update a CERT in a WTP. It seems like this is=20 > needed. > > Assume the clocks are OK, now lets talk about WTP > CERT validation by the AC. This wasn't addressed, but > I believe that WTP CERTs MUST be signed by the > WTP manufacturer, or one of the WELL KNOWN certification=20 > authorities. Adding the CA CERTs in an AC is done through > means outside of CAPWAP (such as via the CLI > on the AC). Thus, WTP CERTs MUST NOT be selfsigned. > And, I believe that the WTPs CERTs should have > for the common name the ASCII of MAC address, > or other unique ID of the WTP (and this must be provided > in the Join Request message). I didn't understand > in the previous text, nor in your message below=20 > why the common name would have a suffix of > "@DOMAIN.NET". > > Now lets talk about AC CERT validation by the WTP.=20 > The CERT for the AC can be created by the AC=20 > manufacturer, the user, or 3rd party. It could > be selfsigned, or have a chain from the manufacturer > or a WELL KNOWN CA. Given this, it will be difficult > for a WTP to verify a AC CERT, at least the first=20 > time. This is just a "leap of faith" if the CERT > cannot be verified. After this first connection, > the AC through the CAPWAP protocol could configure > the WTP with the needed CA CERT(s). However, there=20 > may be some WTPs that have no additional persistent > storage for these CERTs. > > So, it appears to me that the following changes > are required to CAPWAP-01: > 1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be selfsigned,=20 > and MUST have a common name of the ASCII > of the MAC address (or other unique ID, > such as serial number) =09 While we may not think self-signing is a good idea for our typical deployment models, I'm not sure we have to say you MUST NOT do this, but I'll give this some more thought. =09 > 2) The Join Request must be updated to include > the common name as a message element=20 =09 What is your objective with this requirement? =09 > 3) specify that WTPs must continue even when it > believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside > the time window =09 Charles addressed this.=20 =09 > 4) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message > to install an updated CERT for the WTP. > 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new message > to install a CA CERT. =09 I agree that we should discuss this, but I'm a little leary of taking on=20 the task of fully specifying every nuance of cert use and mgmt. Remember, the ipsec group spun out a whole new wg to handle this particular problem. It's complicated. =09 What we're trying to do in the base protocol is come up with minimal and=20 sufficient guidelines to get people going. I think cert mgmt and usage could be revisited in detail later, perhaps under a new charter, but that we might want to consciously avoid getting too bogged down in this=20 for rev 1. =09 Scott =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: =09 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.730CB001 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm ok=20 with Dorothy's proposed recommendations.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, = 2006=20 3:28 PM
To: capwap
Subject: [Capwap] Proposed = Resolution=20 to Issue 143: Specification for theusage of CERTS for CAPWAP/was CERT = issues=20 in CAPWAP-01

All,

Proposed = resolutions for=20 the several components of Issue 143 are included below.
Issue 143 = is also=20 copied below.

Comments=20 = please.

Thanks,

Dorothy
--------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -
1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be = "wacky",
 =20 due to having no battery backed up clock, the battery
  going = bad, the=20 clock never set properly. On the other
  hand, an AC's clock = should be=20 set pretty accurately.
  I't not sure that the recommendations = support=20 this
  scenario. In general, want to support:
    = 0) WTPs=20 with no management interface (other than CAPWAP)
    1) = first=20 time use of WTP after being manufactured
    2) continued = use of=20 WTP after long time operation
    3) continued use in = short term=20 deployments (such
        as WiFi network used = by a=20 Circus that moves from
        town to town = (setting up=20 and tearing down for
        for each move), or = for the=20 WiFi network used
        at conferences (such = as the=20 IETF).

Proposed resolution: Adopt Charles' Clancy's=20 recommendation to
Replace the following text:

 Proper validation of certificates typically = requires=20 checking to
   ensure the certificate has not yet = expired. =20 If devices have a real-
   time clock, they SHOULD verify = the=20 certificate validity dates.  If no
  =20 real-time clock is available, the device SHOULD attempt to=20 determine
   the current time using NTP prior to = certificate=20 validation.  If
   neither is available, devices = SHOULD=20 verify that the start validity
   date of its peer's = certificate=20 is less than its own certificate's
   expiration date, = and its=20 peer's expiration date is greater than its
   own = start=20 date.  Note that failure to check a certificate's temporal
   validity can make a device vulnerable to=20 man-in-the-middle attacks
   launched using compromised, = expired=20 certificates, and therefore
   devices should make every = effort=20 to perform this validation.


with


Proper = validation=20 of certificates typically requires checking to
   ensure = the=20 certificate has not yet expired.  If devices have a
 =20  real-time clock, they SHOULD verify the certificate validity = dates.=20
   If no real-time clock is = available,=20 the device SHOULD make a
   best-effort attempt to = validate the=20 certificate validity dates
   through other means. =  Failure=20 to check a certificate's temporal
   validity can make a = device=20 vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks
   launched using = compromised, expired certificates, and therefore
  =  devices=20 should make every effort to perform this validation.=20 =
-----------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------

2) The new text suggests the common name in the=20 format
  "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And=20 implies
  that "DOMAIN.NET" is the = "administrative=20 domain".
  To me, "administrative domain" implies the = user
 =20 of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer
  must be = required to generate a CERT (and the WTP
  should come = "preloaded"=20 with the CERT), and the user
  of the WTP should not have to = create=20 the WTP CERT.
  (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should = be
  valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for
  =  "@DOMAIN.NET" added to = the common=20 name, and suggest
  that it be removed. (Also, I think that we = have
  now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP = to
 =20 replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be
  to add CA = CERTs for=20 the AC's CERT chain. Also,
  what is the min depth that a WTP = should=20 support?)

Proposed Resolution:
Adopt David's = suggestion to=20 drop the @DOMAIN.NET and
add a = sentence=20 describing the storage requirements on the WTP and AC:

Change=20 from:

  Another important part of = certificate=20 authentication is binding a
   certificate to a = particular=20 device.  There are many ways to
   accomplish = this. =20 CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate common
   = name (CN)=20 as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   = followed=20 by an @ symbol, and then an administrative domain.  = For
  =20 example, 01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET.  During=20 authentication,
   devices SHOULD ensure that the MAC = matches the=20 MAC specified in the
   CAPWAP header, and that the = domain in=20 both the AC and WTP
   certificates = match.

to
  Another important part of certificate = authentication is=20 binding a
   certificate to a particular device.  = There are=20 many ways to
   accomplish this.  CAPWAP RECOMMENDS=20 specifying the certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP = or AC=20 MAC address formatted as ASCII HEX,
   for = example,=20 01:23:45:67:89:ab.  During authentication,
   = devices SHOULD=20 ensure that the MAC address matches the MAC
   = address =20 specified in the CAPWAP header. If this mechanism is used, the ACs=20 SHOULD
   maintain list of all authorized WTP MAC = addresses and=20 the WTP SHOULD
   save the AC credential or credential=20 = identifier.

------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------
3) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be = selfsigned,
   =20 and MUST have a common name of the ASCII
    of the MAC = address=20 (or other unique ID,
    such as serial=20 number)

Proposed resolution:
No change to the text = regarding=20 use of self-signed certs. While the use
of self-signed certs may = not
be=20 widespread,  there isn't a compelling need to preclude = their
use in a=20 CAPWAP application.

Change the text to require that WTP certs = MUST=20 have a
common mane of the ASCII of the MAC = address:

from:
CAPWAP RECOMMENDS specifying the certificate = common
  =20 name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC address formatted as ASCII=20 HEX,
   for example,=20 01:23:45:67:89:ab.

to

Specificaiton of = the=20 certificate common
   name (CN) as the WTP or AC MAC = address=20 formatted as ASCII HEX,
   for example, = 01:23:45:67:89:ab=20 is REQUIRED for use with the CAPWAP=20 = protocol.

--------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------
 =20 4)  The Join Request must be updated to include
 =20   the common name as a message element

Proposed = resolution:=20 No change to the text. The join request
currenly includes the = BSSID. Also,=20 since the JOIN occurs inside the DTLS tunnel, it = is
 implicitly bound=20 to the MAC (assuming certs were used for authentication, and
this = is N/A=20 for preshared key=20 = authentication).

-------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------
  5) specify that WTPs must continue even when = it
 =20   believes its CERT or the AC's CERT is outside
    = the time=20 window

Proposed resolution: No change to the = document.
That seems equivalent to mandating WTPs never validate = timestamps=20 on any
AC certs.  What if the WTP has a real-time clock and = actually=20 CAN
distinguish between good and bad=20 = certs?
--------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------
.
 6= )=20 Tthe CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
  =20    to install an updated CERT for the = WTP.

Proposed resolution: Defer for = consideration in=20 the next version of CAPWAP;
the mechanisms for certificate = distribution=20 and management are
quite complex re: certifcate formats, content,=20 generation etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------

 7) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new=20 message
      to install a CA=20 CERT.

Proposed resolution: Defer for = consideration in the=20 next version of CAPWAP;
the mechanisms for certificate = distribution and=20 management are
quite complex re: certifcate formats, content,=20 = management.

------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------
Issue=20 143:=20


1) Cipher =
Suites for CERTS
CAPWAP-01 has the following cipher suites = specified:
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_3DES_ED= E_CBC_SHA, and
TLS_DH_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

The above is a = mistake, and the following should be used:

TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA,
TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CB= C_SHA, and
TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA

2) CERT usage = type:
CAPWAP-01 has the folllwing about CERTS:
2.4.4.3
. Certificate Usage

Validation of the = certificates by the AC and WTP is required so that
only an AC may = perform the functions of an AC and that only a WTP may
perform the = functions of a WTP. This restriction of functions to the

AC or WTP requires that the certificates used by the AC MUST = be
distinguishable from the certificate used by the WTP. To = accomplish
this differentiation, the x.509v3 certificates MUST = include the
Extensions field [11] and MUST include the = NetscapeComment [15]

extension.

For an AC, the value of the = NetscapeComment extension MUST be the
string "CAPWAP AC Device = Certificate". For a WTP, the value of the
NetscapeComment = extension MUST be the string "CAPWAP WTP Device

Certificate".

Part of the CAPWAP certificate = validation process includes ensuring
that the proper string is = included in the NetscapeComment extension,
and only allowing the = CAPWAP session to be established if the

extension does not represent the same role as the device = validating
the certificate. For instance, a WTP MUST NOT accept a = certificate
whose NetscapeComment field is set to "CAPWAP WTP = Device
Certificate".


Using the "NetscapeComment extension" is not = appropriate.

3) Selfsigned CERTs, CA CERTs, and validity = checking
I didn't see anything about whether or not the CERTs
were = selfsigned. And if not selfsigned, who would sign them.

Also, how would a limited resource WTP verify an AC's = cert?
What if the WTP had no realtime clock (or a realtime = clock
with an unknown certainty)?

4) Common Name in a WTP's = CERT
I believe that the common name on the WTP's CERT

must be the WTP's ID (which would be either the serial
number = or "base MAC address"), and should be provided
as a parameter on the = join.

Two small, but = important=20 issues are:
1) It should be OK for the clock on a WTP to be=20 "wacky",
  due to having no battery backed up clock, the=20 battery
  going bad, the clock never set properly. On the=20 other
  hand, an AC's clock should be set pretty = accurately.
 =20 I't not sure that the recommendations support this
  scenario. = In=20 general, want to support:
    0) WTPs with no management=20 interface (other than CAPWAP)
    1) first time use of = WTP after=20 being manufactured
    2) continued use of WTP after long = time=20 operation
    3) continued use in short term deployments=20 (such
        as WiFi network used by a Circus = that=20 moves from
        town to town (setting up and = tearing=20 down for
        for each move), or for the = WiFi=20 network used
        at conferences (such as = the=20 IETF).
2) The new text suggests the common name in the = format
  "01:23:45:67:89:ab@DOMAIN.NET" for WTPs. And=20 implies
  that "DOMAIN.NET" is the = "administrative=20 domain".
  To me, "administrative domain" implies the = user
 =20 of the WTP. But, I believe that the WTP manufacturer
  must be = required to generate a CERT (and the WTP
  should come = "preloaded"=20 with the CERT), and the user
  of the WTP should not have to = create=20 the WTP CERT.
  (By the way, not sure how long the CERT should = be
  valid.) Thus, I see no need or desire for
  =  "@DOMAIN.NET" added to = the common=20 name, and suggest
  that it be removed. (Also, I think that we = have
  now a new requirement to be able via CAPWAP = to
 =20 replace the WTP's CERT with another, and may be
  to add CA = CERTs for=20 the AC's CERT chain. Also,
  what is the min depth that a WTP = should=20 support?)

So, it appears to me = that the=20 following changes
are required to CAPWAP-01:
 1) specify = that WTP=20 CERTs cannot be selfsigned,
    and MUST have a common = name of=20 the ASCII
    of the MAC address (or other unique = ID,
 =20   such as serial number)
 2) The = Join=20 Request must be updated to include
    the common name as = a=20 message element
 3) specify that WTPs = must=20 continue even when it
    believes its CERT or the AC's = CERT is=20 outside
    the time window
 4) the=20 CAPWAP protocol must have a new message
    to install an = updated=20 CERT for the WTP.
 5) the CAPWAP protocol must have a new=20 message
    to install a CA CERT.

On 6/15/06, Michael=20 Montemurro <=20 montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
All,
 
I've created issue 143 to deal with = this=20 problemm.

 
On 6/15/06, Scott G=20 Kelly <scott@hyperthought.com=20 > wrote:=20
Hi=20 David,

Like I said previously, I agree with pretty much = everything=20 Charles
said, so I won't re-iterate his points, and will = instead simply=20 add a
few comments below:

David T. Perkins = wrote:
>=20 HI,
>
> Thank you for responding to my issues. It = seems to me=20 that
> we are not yet looking at the same problem. So let me = try
> again.
>
> What I was trying to point out = is that=20 there are a few
> VERY common scenarios (use cases) where = the clock=20 on
> a WTP can be totally wrong. If a WTP is coded so = that
>=20 it will not continue and communicate with an AC when
> it = thinks=20 the AC's CERTs are outside the time window,
> (or it thinks = that=20 it's on CERTs are outside the time
> window) then you will = have a=20 useless device (a brick).
> In many (maybe most) = deployments, it=20 costs more to
> physically touch a WTP than the equipment = cost of=20 the WTP.
> At the Dallas IETF, there were APs that were=20 "somewhere"
> in the ceiling not doing any useful work, but=20 sending
> out beacons with their config'ed SSID because it = was=20
> too expensive to find them, and take them down. = It
> was=20 more cost effective to just new new APs.
>
> For an = AC, it's=20 clock must be accurate,
> and it would be OK for it to not = proceed=20 if it believes
> its CERTs are outside their time window. = But,=20 the
> CAPWAP protocol should allow an AC to = establish
> a=20 session with a WTP that has a WACKY clock (and
> even a CERT = that=20 has expired). NOTE: the AC clock
> must be pretty accurate = for=20 management (such as
> logs) to be useful (or work). The = CAPWAP=20 protocol has
> support to set the WTP's clock. But it = doesn't have=20 support
> to update a CERT in a WTP. It seems like this is =
>=20 needed.
>
> Assume the clocks are OK, now lets talk = about=20 WTP
> CERT validation by the AC. This wasn't addressed, = but
>=20 I believe that WTP CERTs MUST be signed by the
> WTP = manufacturer,=20 or one of the WELL KNOWN certification
> authorities. = Adding the CA=20 CERTs in an AC is done through
> means outside of CAPWAP = (such as=20 via the CLI
> on the AC). Thus, WTP CERTs MUST NOT be=20 selfsigned.
> And, I believe that the WTPs CERTs should have =
> for the common name the ASCII of MAC address,
> or = other=20 unique ID of the WTP (and this must be provided
> in the = Join=20 Request message). I didn't understand
> in the previous = text, nor in=20 your message below
> why the common name would have a = suffix=20 of
> "@DOMAIN.NET".
>
>=20 Now lets talk about AC CERT validation by the WTP.
> The = CERT for=20 the AC can be created by the AC
> manufacturer, the user, = or 3rd=20 party. It could
> be selfsigned, or have a chain from the=20 manufacturer
> or a WELL KNOWN CA. Given this, it will be=20 difficult
> for a WTP to verify a AC CERT, at least the = first=20
> time. This is just a "leap of faith" if the CERT
> = cannot=20 be verified. After this first connection,
> the AC through = the=20 CAPWAP protocol could configure
> the WTP with the needed CA = CERT(s). However, there
> may be some WTPs that have no = additional=20 persistent
> storage for these CERTs.
>
> So, it = appears=20 to me that the following changes
> are required to=20 CAPWAP-01:
>   1) specify that WTP CERTs cannot be = selfsigned,
>      and MUST = have a=20 common name of the = ASCII
>      of the=20 MAC address (or other unique=20 ID,
>      such as serial=20 number)

While we may not think self-signing is a good idea = for our=20 typical
deployment models, I'm not sure we have to say you MUST = NOT do=20 this, but
I'll give this some more = thought.

>   2)=20 The Join Request must be updated to=20 include
>      the common name = as a=20 message element

What is your objective with this=20 requirement?

>   3) specify that WTPs must = continue=20 even when it
>      believes = its CERT=20 or the AC's CERT is = outside
>      the=20 time window

Charles addressed this. =

>   4) the=20 CAPWAP protocol must have a new=20 message
>      to install an = updated=20 CERT for the WTP.
>   5) the CAPWAP protocol must = have a=20 new message
>      to install = a CA=20 CERT.

I agree that we should discuss this, but I'm a little = leary=20 of taking on
the task of fully specifying every nuance of cert = use and=20 mgmt.
Remember, the ipsec group spun out a whole new wg to = handle=20 this
particular problem. It's complicated.

What we're = trying to=20 do in the base protocol is come up with minimal and
sufficient = guidelines to get people going. I think cert mgmt and = usage
could be=20 revisited in detail later, perhaps under a new charter, = but
that we=20 might want to consciously avoid getting too bogged down in this =
for=20 rev=20 = 1.

Scott

__________________________________________________= _______________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please = visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =


_________________________= ________________________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EBEC.730CB001-- --===============1408918688== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1408918688==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 18:08:16 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX3IG-0006gt-Tr for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:08:16 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX3IF-0001Wa-AI for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:08:16 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC5A14480EF for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B0D430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06191398072 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5C739805C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.33] (helo=elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GX3Bp-0005Qi-U8; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:01:37 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:01:37 -0400 Message-ID: <8440976.1160431297939.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:01:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff710c1bad131b26bd38d13fba788f11833e4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.33 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: margaret@thingmagic.com, capwap@frascone.com, Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Hi Saravanan, Saravanan Govindan wrote: >Hi Scott, > >I am not sure the suggestion below affects any security model. As long as >there is an established security framework between the AC and WTP, the >suggested approach remains transparent. When you consider the 'security model', you have to consider all assumptions that went into the cryptographic protocol design. Also, you need to carefully consider whether our particular deployment scenarios introduce the need for additional interpretation, since the deployment model 802.11 security has been designed around does not include splitting AP functions in two, with a potentially hostile hop in between. That is what we are doing with CAPWAP. I won't waste time here trying to speculate (or argue) about what clauses might have been worded differently had the 802.11i group been considering CAPWAP-like scenarios. Instead, let me point out just one consequence of passing the KCK to the WTP: the WTP could undetectably modify the content of message 3 of the 4-way handshake. This is bad. Without spending a lot of time thinking about why this might be a problem, we can immediately see that the WTP would be in a position to modify (downgrade) the security capabilities info it sends out, and then modify the IE in message 3 of the 4-way to match. Why would a WTP want to do this? I'm not sure, but we have to keep in mind that we are talking about interoperability here, so the WTP does not necessarily come from the same place as the AC. But the real point is that according to the security model upon which RSN security is based, _this simply should not be possible_ And I should add, I turned this up after only a cursory analysis - there may be other more significant issues. Arguably, the same could be said for the KeyRSC=0 problem, so we are in the difficult position of having to weigh these two against one another in choosing a solution. Having spent more than a few hours mulling this over, I think we are safest if we choose a solution that minimizes protocol complexity and exposure simultaneously. Now, recalling the following for the KeyRSC=0 problem: - the STA's briefly inaccurate view of the RSC (and it's resulting susceptibility to mcast/bcast replays) will be corrected upon receipt of the first valid mcast/bcast message from the WTP - that on "normal" networks we can expect more than a few of these per second (so the exposure is typically sub-second) - that an attempt to replay old frames could likely be detected - that the attacker would either be blindly replaying (outsider attack) and just *hoping* something goes wrong - or that the attacker is an insider who knows the GTK (and could therefore manufacture whatever packets he desires *within* the legal window anyway it seems to me that the window of exposre here is very small indeed. Definitely not worth potentially breaking the RSN security model over. I think that if the WTP, as part of its normal statistics messaging, transmitted per ESSID bcast/mcast counts to the AC, this represents a nice compromise. No new messages, no out of the ordinary processing, and the AC knows which GTK the stats go with, so it can narrow the window of exposure according to how current its stats are vs the xmit rate with the GTK. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 19:33:20 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX4ca-0000zB-0u for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 19:33:20 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX4cV-0001mQ-Gx for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 19:33:20 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A52144803F for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2D4430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72B31448022 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B596D144800C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.33] (helo=elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GX4bj-0003cP-Rs; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 19:32:27 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:32:27 -0400 Message-ID: <27418730.1160436747809.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:32:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" , Capwap@frascone.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff7108bfce1887b9d3c81b9de54b9df6265b8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.33 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Hi Pat, Pat Calhoun wrote: >hmmm.... this seems to be a bug. First of all, why would the WTP have to >wait prior to establishing the DTLS session? Why is this simply not >automatic? I recall wondering about this during the DTLS text integration. If I recall correctly, this was adapted from the original JOIN language, and I thought maybe there was a delay introduced in case the WTP received more discovery responses. I think the language is confusing, though, and needs work either way. Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery method. For a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should wait some reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has received whatever discovery responses it is going to receive before it acts. Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!) For a directed discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response. Scott > > >Pat Calhoun >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >Cisco Systems > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 7:31 PM > To: Capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > > > > All, > > Idle to Discovery transition talks about Discovery Interval >timer: > > Idle to Discovery (a): This transition occurs once device > initialization is complete. > > WTP: The WTP enters the Discovery state prior to >transmitting the > first Discovery Request message (see Section 5.1). >Upon > entering this state, the WTP sets the DiscoveryInterval >timer > (see Section 4.5). The WTP resets the DiscoveryCount >counter > to zero (0) (see Section 4.6). The WTP also clears all > information from ACs it may have received during a >previous > Discovery phase. > > > But DiscoveryInterval timer is described as: > > > 4.5.1. DiscoveryInterval > > The minimum time, in seconds, that a WTP MUST wait after >receiving a > Discovery Response, before initiating a DTLS handshake. > > Should Idle to Discovery actually be based on >MaxDiscoveryInterval timer? Also, there is mention of DiscoveryInterval >timer even in transition from Discovery to Discovery. > > 4.5.6. MaxDiscoveryInterval > > The maximum time allowed between sending discovery requests >from the > interface, in seconds. Must be no less than 2 seconds and no >greater > than 180 seconds. > > Default: 20 seconds. > > Thanks > Smitha > > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 21:30:25 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX6Rt-0004uO-2z for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 21:30:25 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX6Rp-0000fj-IO for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 21:30:25 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106E6398013 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A670430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B0139802E for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BBA139808C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id k9A1SMxp022521; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:28:22 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id k9A1SNa02108; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:28:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/expos) with SMTP id k9A1SMl07586; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:28:22 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:27:08 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD013662C7@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: AcbppxXG8vlRVt+XTGCZp/uvRyEy0wBuaiJgAAQFBzAAFKYqQAARnGMA From: "Saravanan Govindan" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Cheng Hong" , "Scott G. Kelly" , "Margaret Wasserman" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.424 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: df9edf1223802dd4cf213867a3af6121 Pat, The WTP does not need any additional key information since the issue at hand considers the WTP to perform crypto functions. I do not think the proposal introduces threats. Also, given CAPWAP development is still in progress, I think we should not preclude any item because it involves change - the protocol is not yet complete. Saravanan -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:39 AM To: Saravanan Govindan; Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman Cc: capwap Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations This would require the AC to send additional keying information to the WTP, since message three needs to be authenticated. So I disagree with this proposal. The change is much more sinificant than simply leaving the field zero. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:08 AM > To: Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Hi Cheng Hong, Scott, > > I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. > > In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in > this case and needs to be fixed. > > My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the > WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to > the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then > correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update > Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. > > Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP > to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an > acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of > 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. > > Saravanan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM > To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Hi Scott, > > Some comments below: > > > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring > myself to agree > > with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC > > value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are > > introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling > > implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. > > > > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than > > always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending > that people > > nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, > let's hold > > off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we > > expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell > implementors > > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered > > advice. > > I absolutely agree with you on this point. > > What I was trying to state in my previous emails was: > - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a > solution to this issue. > - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the > draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value > could work (value other than zero may be a problem for > interoperability). > - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger > of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security > consideration section. > - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation > for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP > standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). > > If there is a alternative solution than setting a static > KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it. > > cheers > > Cheng Hong > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM > > To: Margaret Wasserman > > Cc: capwap > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > Considerations > > > > Hi Margaret, > > > > Comments inline below... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: Margaret Wasserman > > >Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM > > >To: Scott G Kelly > > >Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > > Considerations > > > > > > > > >While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal > > >implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the > > >protocol portion of the document (as well as the security > > >considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about > something > > >like: > > > > > >The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of > the 4-way > > >802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more > optimal RSC > > >value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC > > value are > > >outside the scope of this specification. > > > > > >I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that > > >implementors figure this out. > > > > > >Margaret > > > > After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring > myself to agree > > with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC > > value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are > > introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling > > implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. > > > > An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than > > always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending > that people > > nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, > let's hold > > off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we > > expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell > implementors > > what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered > > advice. > > > > Scott > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 22:19:26 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX7DK-0003rg-4I for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 22:19:26 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX7DG-0007aH-EE for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 22:19:26 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF2539804C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FCC430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3260A39802E for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc15.comcast.net (rwcrmhc15.comcast.net [204.127.192.85]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CB939804C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (c-68-49-199-146.hsd1.md.comcast.net[68.49.199.146]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc15) with ESMTP id <20061010021824m15009fkope>; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 02:18:25 +0000 Message-ID: <452B02F1.4090308@cs.umd.edu> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 22:18:25 -0400 From: Charles Clancy User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Saravanan Govindan References: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD013662C7@pslexc01.psl.local> In-Reply-To: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD013662C7@pslexc01.psl.local> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.374 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap , Cheng Hong Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f0b5a4216bfa030ed8a6f68d1833f8ae Saravanan, Your proposal requires the WTP to know the KCK to compute the MIC. In both Split MAC and Local MAC, the 4-way handshake is executed between the AC and STA (hence the whole problem we're talking about). After the handshake is complete, the PTK is transmitted to the WTP. Currently there is no way for the WTP to know the KCK in any of the possible usage scenarios. Key derivation process: EAP MSK = 11i PMK (transported from AAA server to AC after successful EAP authentication) First two messages of 4-way handshake occurs between AC and STA and both the AC and STA now know SNonce, ANonce, SAddr, AAddr. (KEK, KCK, PTK) = TK = KDF(PMK, SNonce, ANonce, SAddr, AAddr) AC and STA now know KEK, KCK, PTK. AC and STA use KCK to properly MIC messages 3 and 4 of handshake If 11i is terminated at the WTP, the AC then transports the PTK to WTP. At no point, and in no scenario, does the KCK currently get transported to the WTP. An additional message would have to be inserted between messages 2 and 3 of the 4-way handshake to inform the WTP of the KCK. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy Saravanan Govindan wrote: > Pat, > > The WTP does not need any additional key information since the issue at > hand considers the WTP to perform crypto functions. I do not think the > proposal introduces threats. > > Also, given CAPWAP development is still in progress, I think we should > not preclude any item because it involves change - the protocol is not > yet complete. > > Saravanan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:39 AM > To: Saravanan Govindan; Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman > Cc: capwap > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations > > This would require the AC to send additional keying information to the > WTP, since message three needs to be authenticated. So I disagree with > this proposal. The change is much more sinificant than simply leaving > the field zero. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:08 AM >> To: Cheng Hong; Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >> >> Hi Cheng Hong, Scott, >> >> I share your concerns for setting the KeyRSC to 0. >> >> In my opinion, it is clear that the protocol is "broken" in >> this case and needs to be fixed. >> >> My suggestion is to have the KeyRSC field be updated by the >> WTP. So the AC could send Message-3 of the 4-way handshake to >> the WTP with an empty KeyRSC field. The WTP could then >> correctly update the field, compute the KeyMIC, update >> Message-3 and then forward it to the STA. >> >> Of course, this requires a CAPWAP message from the AC and WTP >> to exchange the incomplete Message-3. I think this is an >> acceptable addition because it maintains the integrity of >> 802.11i exchanges and provides a complete fix to the problem. >> >> Saravanan >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:21 PM >> To: Scott G. Kelly; Margaret Wasserman >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >> Considerations >> >> Hi Scott, >> >> Some comments below: >> >>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring >> myself to agree >>> with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC >>> value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are >>> introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling >>> implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. >>> >>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than >>> always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending >> that people >>> nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, >> let's hold >>> off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we >>> expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell >> implementors >>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered >>> advice. >> I absolutely agree with you on this point. >> >> What I was trying to state in my previous emails was: >> - I would against setting a static value for the KeyRSC as a >> solution to this issue. >> - However if the WG decided to go for a static value, the >> draft should clearly point out that NOT all static value >> could work (value other than zero may be a problem for >> interoperability). >> - And the draft needs to clearly point out what is the danger >> of setting a static KeyRSC value in the security >> consideration section. >> - Also, the draft should not prohibit other implementation >> for sync the KeyRSC value between WTP and AC (the CAPWAP >> standard should not dictate such implementation incompatible). >> >> If there is a alternative solution than setting a static >> KeyRSC value to narrow the window, I would vote for it. >> >> cheers >> >> Cheng Hong >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:26 AM >>> To: Margaret Wasserman >>> Cc: capwap >>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>> >>> Hi Margaret, >>> >>> Comments inline below... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Margaret Wasserman >>>> Sent: Oct 6, 2006 9:39 AM >>>> To: Scott G Kelly >>>> Cc: Cheng Hong , capwap >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i >>> Considerations >>>> >>>> While I am not against leaving things open to more optimal >>>> implementations, I do think that we need to add some text to the >>>> protocol portion of the document (as well as the security >>>> considerations) to explain how this is handled. How about >> something >>>> like: >>>> >>>> The AC SHOULD use an RSC of 0 when computing message-3 of >> the 4-way >>>> 802.11i handshake, unless the AC has knowledge of a more >> optimal RSC >>>> value to use. Mechanisms for determining a more optimal RSC >>> value are >>>> outside the scope of this specification. >>>> >>>> I do not think that we should simply say nothing and hope that >>>> implementors figure this out. >>>> >>>> Margaret >>> After thinking long and hard about this, I can't bring >> myself to agree >>> with the suggested text. Quite frankly, I think always using an RSC >>> value of 0 is a lazy hack, and given that we've acknowledged we are >>> introducing a vulnerability here (however slight), telling >>> implementors they SHOULD do this just doesn't sit right with me. >>> >>> An enlightened implementation could almost certainly do better than >>> always setting this to zero, and explicitly recommending >> that people >>> nail this window open just rubs me the wrong way. At least, >> let's hold >>> off on this decision until we've clearly defined what statistics we >>> expect to be available. Seems like if we're going to tell >> implementors >>> what they SHOULD do, we SHOULD give them sound, well considered >>> advice. >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 22:23:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX7H5-00053Q-R6 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 22:23:19 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX7H3-0008JW-Gp for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 22:23:19 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB37E398084 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72941430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E7039804C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9343398017 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/bulls) with ESMTP id k9A2LNEB026773; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:21:23 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id k9A2LLa01186; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:21:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/dodgers) with ESMTP id k9A2LHd11069; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:21:18 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:20:10 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD0136630C@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames Thread-Index: AcbieUNFx2Heibn8RoyIXIp63oas0QAIb/jgAkkkjMAAFDCDYA== From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Michael Montemurro" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.452 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1062068395==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cc961b79af8d22f2640d5180a0dbc035 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1062068395== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6EC12.9D34E136" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EC12.9D34E136 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pat, =20 You are right. So, it seems that 802.1X frame may not even always have higher priority over wireless link. =20 Another concern I have is about the CAPWAP QoS preservation. It seems that for the HCCA case, CAPWAP may not be able to guarantee the same QoS over the wired section for the STA.=20 =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:42 AM To: Cheng Hong; Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap Subject: RE: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames Even in the case of EDCA, there is no guarantees that the STA can send an 802.1X frame with a high priority UP field. This is especially true if the WTP requires authorization prior to making use of the QoS class. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 _____ =20 From: Cheng Hong [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:20 PM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames Hi Mike, =20 In the HCCA case, the TID value is in the range of 8 to 15, and according to clause 6.1.1.1.1 point b: =20 "b) QoS subtypes, in which case the QAP shall infer the UP value from the TID in the QoS Control field directly for TID values between 0 and 7. For TID values between 8 and 15, the QAP shall extract the UP value in the UP subfield of the TS Info field in the associated TSPEC or from the UP field in the associated TCLAS (traffic classification) element, as applicable." =20 It seems that the WTP needs to do much more to obtain the actual UP value. In case the TSPEC or TCLAS elemets are located at the AC, how would the WTP get the UP value in the HCCA case? =20 Or is there any place that prevents sending EAPOL frames using HCCA? If that is the case, it is not a problem. But, then again, all the data traffic sent using HCCA will have difficulty to obtain the correct priority in CAPWAP delivery. =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:23 AM To: Cheng Hong Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames Cheng, =20 In the HCCA case, the TID case should work as well. I don't see why it wouldn't. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =20 On 9/26/06, Cheng Hong wrote:=20 Hi Mike,=20 =20 It seems OK to use TID in the EDCA case. If the HCCA is used, would the TID still be meaningful in mapping the priority? (Haven't check the 802.11 standards in detail).=20 =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong=20 _____ =20 From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:24 AM=20 To: Cheng Hong Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames =20 Cheng, =20 Thanks for you input. =20 Also, that's a good question. In my opinion, the CAPWAP priority should be based on the TID(UP). Which means yes, the WTP would need to read into the QoS control field. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =20 On 9/25/06, Cheng Hong > wrote:=20 Hi Mike, =20 In this case, I tend to agree with the other Michael on the first point. =20 However, on the mapping 802.11e priority back to CAPWAP priority, I am not really sure how that is done. Is it based on 802.11e AC or TID (UP)? For later case, does it mean the WTP need to read into the QoS Control Field?=20 =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:17 AM To: Cheng Hong Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap=20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames =20 Cheng Hong, =20 In the CAPWAP draft, both wireless data and management frames are treated as CAPWAP data frames. Given that, all CAPWAP data traffic would need to go to the same logical instance of the AC. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =20 On 9/24/06, Cheng Hong > wrote:=20 Hi Michael & Michael, =20 Sorry if the issue has already been discussed before. Just thinking if the WTP does not differentiate 802.1X frames from normal data frames, would it be possible that the 802.1X frames being forwarded to a different AC instance than the one processing the control/management frames? (in case different ACs are used to process the control and data channel) Is this acceptable? =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:18 AM To: zhaoyujin 31390 Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames=20 =20 Michael, =20 Thanks. Is anybody else opinionated on this feature.=20 =20 Cheers, =20 Mike =20 On 9/23/06, zhaoyujin 31390 > wrote:=20 Firstly, I have some doubt one this suggestion. 1. If CAPWAP difines like this, AP device must decode the payload frames of 802.11 frames. 2. Another problem, the 802.1x priority should be implement by 802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data frames, it can set 802.11e priority. AP should transfer 802.11e to actual CAPWAP packet priority. So that I think CAPWAP does not need consider the priority of 802.11 data frames payload.=20 Thanks Michael >Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted at the same priority as >IEEE 802.11 Management frames. > >I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages >to "Quality >of Service for IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to >indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher priority. >=20 >Cheers, > >Mike This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email=20 immediately and delete it! =20 Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted at the same priority as IEEE 802.11 Management frames.=20 =20 I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages to "Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to indicate that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher priority. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EC12.9D34E136 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Pat,
 
You=20 are right. So, it seems that 802.1X frame may not  even always have = higher=20 priority over wireless link.
 
Another concern I have is about the CAPWAP QoS preservation. It = seems=20 that for the HCCA case, CAPWAP may not be able to guarantee the same QoS = over=20 the wired section for the STA.
 
cheers
 
Cheng=20 Hong
 
 
 


From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20 [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 = 1:42=20 AM
To: Cheng Hong; Michael Montemurro
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: RE: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed = resolution=20 to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X frames

Even=20 in the case of EDCA, there is no guarantees that the STA can send an = 802.1X=20 frame with a high priority UP field. This is especially true if the = WTP=20 requires authorization prior to making use of the QoS=20 class.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Cheng Hong=20 [mailto:Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = September=20 27, 2006 6:20 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed=20 resolution to Issue214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20 frames

Hi=20 Mike,
 
In=20 the HCCA case, the TID value is in the range of 8 to 15, and = according to=20 clause 6.1.1.1.1 point b:
 
"b) QoS = subtypes, in=20 which case the QAP shall infer the UP value from the TID in the QoS = Control=20 field
directly=20 for TID values between 0 and 7. For TID values between 8 and 15, the = QAP=20 shall extract the
UP value=20 in the UP subfield of the TS Info field in the associated TSPEC or = from the=20 UP field in the
associated TCLAS (traffic classification) element, = as=20 applicable."
&nbs= p;
It seems that the WTP needs to do much = more to=20 obtain the actual UP value. In case the TSPEC or TCLAS elemets are = located=20 at the AC, how would the WTP get the UP value in the HCCA=20 case?
&nbs= p;
Or is there any place that prevents = sending EAPOL=20 frames using HCCA? If that is the case, it is not a problem. But, = then=20 again, all the data traffic sent using HCCA will have difficulty to = obtain=20 the correct priority in CAPWAP=20 delivery.
&nbs= p;
cheers
&nbs= p;
Cheng Hong
&nbs= p;
 
 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, = September=20 28, 2006 2:23 AM
To: Cheng Hong
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed = resolution to Issue 214-Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20 frames

Cheng,
 
In the HCCA case, the TID case should work as well. I don't = see why=20 it wouldn't.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike

 
On 9/26/06, Cheng=20 Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com>=20 wrote:=20
Hi Mike,=20
 
It seems = OK to use TID=20 in the EDCA case. If the HCCA is used, would the TID still be = meaningful=20 in mapping the priority? (Haven't check the 802.11 standards in = detail).=20
 
cheers
 
Cheng = Hong=20


From: = Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:24 AM =

To: = Cheng=20 Hong
Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; capwap
Subject: = Re:=20 [Capwap] This is not need.: Proposed resolution to Issue 214=20 -Prioritization of IEEE 802.1X=20 frames

 
Cheng,
 
Thanks for you input.
 
Also, that's a good question. In my opinion, the CAPWAP = priority=20 should be based on the TID(UP). Which means yes, the WTP = would=20 need to read into the QoS control field.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike
 
On 9/25/06, Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com > = wrote:=20
Hi=20 Mike,
 
In = this case, I=20 tend to agree with the other Michael on the first point.=20
 
However, on the=20 mapping 802.11e priority back to CAPWAP priority, I am = not=20 really sure how that is done. Is it based on 802.11e AC or = TID (UP)?=20 For later case, does it mean the WTP need to read into the = QoS=20 Control Field?
 
cheers
 
Cheng = Hong
 
 

From: Michael = Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com ]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:17=20 AM
To: Cheng Hong
Cc: zhaoyujin 31390; = capwap=20

Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not = need.:=20 Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of IEEE = 802.1X=20 frames

 
Cheng Hong,
 
In the CAPWAP draft, both wireless data and = management frames=20 are treated as CAPWAP data frames. Given that,=20 all CAPWAP data traffic would need to go to the same = logical=20 instance of the AC.
 
Cheers,
 
Mike


 
On 9/24/06, Cheng Hong <Hong.Cheng@sg.panasonic.com > = wrote:=20
Hi Michael=20 & Michael,
 
Sorry if the=20 issue has already been discussed before. Just thinking = if the=20 WTP does not differentiate 802.1X frames from normal = data=20 frames, would it be possible that the 802.1X frames = being=20 forwarded to a different AC instance than the one = processing the=20 control/management frames? (in case different ACs are = used to=20 process the control and data channel) Is this=20 acceptable?
 
cheers
 
Cheng=20 Hong
 
 
 


From: Michael = Montemurro=20 [mailto:montemurro.michael@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:18=20 AM
To: zhaoyujin 31390
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] This is not = need.:=20 Proposed resolution to Issue 214 -Prioritization of = IEEE=20 802.1X frames

 
Michael,
 
Thanks. Is anybody else opinionated on this = feature.=20
 
Cheers,
 
Mike

 
On 9/23/06, zhaoyujin 31390 <zhaoyujin@huawei.com > = wrote:=20
Firstly, I have some = doubt one=20 this suggestion.

1. If CAPWAP difines like = this, AP=20 device must decode the payload frames of 802.11=20 frames.
2. Another problem, the 802.1x priority = should be=20 implement by 802.11e. When station sends 802.11 data = frames,=20 it can set 802.11e priority. AP should transfer = 802.11e to=20 actual CAPWAP packet priority.

So that I = think CAPWAP=20 does not need consider the priority of 802.11 data = frames=20 payload.=20 =

Thanks
Michael



>Practically=20 speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should be transmitted = at the=20 same priority as >IEEE 802.11 Management=20 frames.
>
>I will update Section 11.5, = rename=20 Quality of Service for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages = >to=20 "Quality
>of Service for IEEE 802.11 control = messages=20 and IEEE 802.1X EAPoL frames" and add text to = >indicate=20 that IEEE 802.1X frames are sent at a higher=20 priority.
>=20
>Cheers,
>
>Mike


This = e-mail=20 and attachments contain confidential information = from=20 HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or = entity=20 whose address is listed above. Any use of the = information=20 contained herein in any way (including, but not = limited to,=20 total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or = dissemination)=20 by persons other than the intended recipient's) is=20 prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, = please=20 notify the sender by phone or email
immediately = and=20 delete it!

 

Practically speaking, IEEE 802.1X frames should = be=20 transmitted at the same priority as IEEE 802.11 = Management=20 frames.
 
I will update Section 11.5, rename Quality of = Service=20 for IEEE 802.11 Control Messages to "Quality
of = Service=20 for IEEE 802.11 control messages and IEEE 802.1X = EAPoL=20 frames" and add text to indicate that IEEE 802.1X = frames are=20 sent at a higher priority.
 
Cheers,
 
=
Mike

______________________________________________________= ___________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, = please=20 visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =




<= BR>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6EC12.9D34E136-- --===============1062068395== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1062068395==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 09 23:06:10 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX7wY-0008TK-TH for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 23:06:10 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GX7wW-0005i9-Eo for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 23:06:10 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E332398055 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 932F9430018 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B74B1448014 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6606C1448016 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2006 20:05:01 -0700 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9A350t3021141; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:05:00 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9A350Ao005454; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:05:00 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:04:59 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8C3E@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question Thread-Index: Acbr+y++yS6Ll74aTSaLJfYo3b5kBQAHaC/A From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2006 03:05:00.0623 (UTC) FILETIME=[DFE365F0:01C6EC18] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 > Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery > method. For a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a > WTP should wait some reasonable period to probabalistically > ensure that it has received whatever discovery responses it > is going to receive before it acts. Otherwise, you could have > kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take that one! No -- that > one! Wait... I want THAT one!) For a directed discover, > obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response. sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" condition. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 10 06:55:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXFH9-0005zp-I2 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:55:55 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXF2j-0007qK-OZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:41:06 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49D539805F for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDD044300EA for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D066D39802D for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F91398029 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Oct 2006 03:40:30 -0700 Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (india-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.129.221]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9AAeTcq019197; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:40:30 -0700 Received: from xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-411.cisco.com [64.104.140.150]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9AAeGB3008077; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:40:21 GMT Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:10:17 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:10:17 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01EFFAD0@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question Thread-Index: Acbr+y++yS6Ll74aTSaLJfYo3b5kBQAHaC/AAA7f0mA= From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Scott G. Kelly" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2006 10:40:17.0839 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A37C3F0:01C6EC58] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 So, MaxDiscoveryInterval is not specific to an AC, in that it is a global timer which decides how frequently we send out Discovery Requests. But "DiscoveryCount" talks about the maximum # of discoveries transmitted by the WTP to an AC. Also, the spec says: " A WTP MUST send no more than the maximum of MaxDiscoveries Discovery Request messages, waiting for a random delay less than MaxDiscoveryInterval between each successive message." Is it OK to assume that: 1. DiscoveryInterval timer is the delay between successive discovery requests sent to the same AC? 2. DiscoveryCount will be obtained based on DiscoveryInterval timer (when the same expires). 3. MaxDiscoveryInterval - why is this needed? 4. Transition from Discovery to Sulking state occurs when DiscoveryCount reaches the max limit - for a particular AC? However, this does not cover the case of being able to "select" from a set of discovery responses obtained at the WTP. Thanks Smitha -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:35 AM To: Scott G. Kelly; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); Capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery method. For > a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should wait some > reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has received > whatever discovery responses it is going to receive before it acts. > Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take > that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!) For a directed > discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response. sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" condition. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 10 10:56:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXJ23-0001XH-D9 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:56:35 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXJ1x-0005YA-Tm for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:56:35 -0400 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela-mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.33]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93BB39807D for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 07:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8298A4300EA for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 07:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCA21448027 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 07:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 19 days 06:08:34 ago Received: from thingmagic.com (unknown [204.9.221.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570D6144800C for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 07:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.2]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1368796; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:55:38 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Message-Id: <2A669DF3-0222-46CC-B9B6-541CCF87A1C6@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:53:41 -0400 To: capwap X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] LACK OF CONSENSUS: 2-port/mux issue X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Hi All, Over the past few months, we have had an open issue in the CAPWAP WG that we refer to as the "2-port/mux issue". The current CAPWAP protocol specification indicates that the CAPWAP protocol will run over two UDP ports, one for control traffic and one for data traffic. Proposals have been made to move to a single-port approach or to allow for a single-port option. There has been much discussion of this issue, including e-mail discussion and presentations at WG meetings. We have consulted with the IESG, and the outcome of those discussions has been sent to the group. At this point, we believe that every interested party has had an opportunity to present technical facts in support of his/her position, and we believe that the WG is aware of the technical differences between the two approaches. So, it is time to determine the resolution of this issue. The WG chairs have reviewed the status of this issue, and we have found that the WG does not have consensus to modify the demultiplexing mechanism described in the current CAPWAP specification, either to move to a single-port approach or to add a single-port option. Therefore, in the absence of any new technical information, we are closing this discussion. Editors, please close this issue in the issue tracker with a resolution indicating that there is no WG consensus to make this change. We realize that this has been a contentious issue for the WG, and that some people may be dissatisfied with this resolution. We all would have preferred our technical discussions to converge on a single correct choice, but that hasn't happened. In this case, it is possible to build a viable CAPWAP protocol using either approach, and both approaches have advantages and disadvantages that are weighed differently by different parties. Unless new technical information comes to light, we do not believe that continued discussion of this issue will lead to consensus on the technical superiority of either approach. The WG chairs have reviewed the history of this issue to determine how to move forward, given that our technical discussions have not converged. The two-port approach was part of the original LWAPP specification, and It was also included in the -00 version of the CAPWAP specification that was accepted as a WG work item in early 2006. There was WG consensus to accept LWAPP as the basis of the CAPWAP specification, therefore the WG chairs believe that WG consensus would be required to change the demultiplexing mechanism. Despite lengthy discussion, the WG has not reached consensus to do that. We would like to thank everyone who has participated in this discussion. We hope that we will be able to put this issue behind us and continue to work together towards a well-defined and widely- deployed CAPWAP specification. Best Regards, Dorothy Gellert, Mahalingam Mani & Margaret Wasserman The CAPWAP WG Co-Chairs _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From daithitolman@brookdaleplastics.com Tue Oct 10 15:29:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXNHu-0003JY-IW for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:29:14 -0400 Received: from arouen-151-1-29-180.w86-208.abo.wanadoo.fr ([86.208.76.180] helo=brookdaleplastics.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXNHt-00058R-1w for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:29:14 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6eca2$2b11c600$6972a8c0@causs> Reply-To: "Charlene Dresser" From: "Charlene Dresser" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: VAGRA Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:27:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EC67.7EB2EE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EC67.7EB2EE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, VAGRA - save 70% http://www.verindefunhasetrionde.com _____ =20 No. Medical teams are stationed there in the hospital inside the into view, a blown-up image really. 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Ktck Also ability listen = am.
Resource Tariq of=20 Raja Bell is Cedric.
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Versatile used = itself=20 Related gtgt Hometable Contents Console Info Rate.
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Stores Songs Plays hrs = is.
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Records topgame.
Comus = xxl or=20 Roadcomus ski.
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To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: pf blk ptsDirk Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:14:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6ED2E.C98B35A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 1e467ff145ef391eb7b594ef62b8301f ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6ED2E.C98B35A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6ED2E.C98B35A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6ED2E.C98B35A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Via in Mobile a Version Desktop Dooms. Bloglines my is Feedster Yahoo is Aolclick ffb! Report am Roster Stats Records set Compute stats. Trademark Rights Reserved aba Dreamcast a Works Make Travel Guide. Sponsored by Popular Searches Blackjack is Movies Nintendo Paparazzi. 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Via in Mobile a Version Desktop = Dooms.
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Sponsored by Popular Searches Blackjack = is Movies=20 Nintendo Paparazzi.
Technical a great campaign.
Looks scared being = held=20 that persons hand.
Country singer ac Greens Programs Youth.
Farmer = country=20 singer ac Greens Programs.
Record a Opponents a Last Preseason Garys = Corner=20 am number articles written Adornato keeping.
On Politics Design is = change=20 new in Morning in Show Losin it Hastert.
Enjoyable in waste Then = thing ahead=20 penguin if dare proudly.
Injury am Report in?
Sega in vms=20 versatile.
Harris is Josh.
Playing bingo.
Word yeton plans=20 filling.
Peek authors.
Versatile is used itself Related gtgt = Hometable=20 of.
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1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6ECEF.E07523F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0bb031f3a6fb29f760794ac9bf1997ae ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6ECEF.E07523F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6ECEF.E07523F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6ECEF.E07523F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help Copyright Australia in pty am. 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From kobcgylfmy@steinwaymusical.com Wed Oct 11 15:34:01 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXjq5-0006x8-4S for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:34:01 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXjq4-0006mw-8G for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:34:01 -0400 Received: from i11105.upc-i.chello.nl ([62.195.11.105]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GXjpw-0004G5-D9 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:33:54 -0400 Message-ID: <001401c6ed6c$47a0f6e0$690bc33e@woppa> From: "offensive" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: fake Wariness nomans Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 21:34:34 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6ED7D.0B29C6E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: cd3d702b63698072ba67a75ce9e0fc9e ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6ED7D.0B29C6E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6ED7D.0B29C6E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6ED7D.0B29C6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable String prompt trade am Seattle uniform flies for Howard is decision bed =20 him angriest nov meeting Florida rebuked requests longterm saying. 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Story calls = winter=20 am allies clear fielder desire string prompt trade Seattle = am?
Football a=20 Schools Thiel a jim Moore Miller Golf Hockey Motor Olympics Education = Webtowns=20 Blogs Life Arts or Listings Movie Aampe Lifestyle am.
Help Analysis = in=20 feedslet news am come to you with ec Africa Americas Europe Middle East = South=20 Asia Business is.
Only Posters ask History Tours Western or iexclen = Espaol=20 Gift Shop Sites Boys Girls Draft is Jobs Super.
Practice of team = sessions=20 place oneman players equal value of doesnt isnt hearts minds teenage = phenom am=20 attempted Seattle is stage.
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Behind = scene=20 become weblog more than already experts bloggers very easy is writer see = submit=20 article want send.
Clinton busied is himself prison warn Rrated = column=20 morning least justice Related articles of Bishes Healey Supposed civil = of=20 inmahed coddle.
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capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:36:43 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c6ed42$dc6440e0$7a3b47c8@EQUIPO3> From: "paul" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: makes movie Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:38:04 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6ED53.9FED10E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c853ec6e79db43c8dbe6774215da1042 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6ED53.9FED10E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6ED53.9FED10E0" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6ED53.9FED10E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Enigmahx am Xploit Pandora hardware generall gaming am rss feeds besides =20 shop modchips of fast or secure online through world is. Works paul announced his progress projectof titled Pspide in projects =20 goal is allow. Current Rocket Pocket is cd Released Mailing List mp Postcard Here guy =20 machine Martin lets burn or as Notwist. Loko ia acient in royal in fishpond Kihei Health County Mayor Council of =20 can accessed State. Chameleon Xbit am Xodus Matrix a Alladin Advanced Xenium Smartxx Xchip =20 Xlite Xlite Xeniums Openxbox Pcbioxx Xtender am Neox Messiah Messiahx! Financial bond company Real Estate Desktop articles same is title in if =20 internal link wish change a point directly of intended. Complete scene release list releases with nfo files microsoft xbox sony =20 ps nintendo gamecube ds console is. Reserved logo trademark Email Privacy a Policy Haleakala Times am =20 Newspaper Mauis of Free Press from in Magic Isle print. Pspide projects goal allow is thepsp utilize hard drive storage medium =20 Tiff Brickout or Released sg just. Tricks forum Learn forums following or modchip software Xecuter Xecuter =20 Xecuterb or x or ii chameleon in Xbit Xodus Matrix or Alladin Advanced =20 in Xenium. Version Pspd and Cash Giveaway been by a Xvidpsp This converter makes =20 movie withthe pmp mod player xtract Xtreme a? User interface am multiple computer consoles typical am terminal =20 Microsoft Windowspc element specific playing gamesa of secondary or =20 browser. Whom might recall said in Troy Mclure voice is Notwist cd insanely =20 catchy singles weve ever heard by. Times even cause serious of problems in you but spins awesome March =20 tacking onto. Fledged client pop or Smtp se Firmware Installer windows is installer =20 copy correct location memory stick you must running prior flashing. Kinda crackly variation in Skam styles already melodies a seep wreckage =20 stuff courtesy friends Payola Wikipedia in free. Link wish change point directly intended Article Edit toolssign links =20 linkcite articlein. Boot Maker v Klutsh simple that a prepare floppy usb use Xsam Psposte =20 Beta coming now this something first full. Not of email for Affil am programs is wil ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6ED53.9FED10E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Enigmahx am Xploit Pandora hardware = generall gaming=20 am rss feeds besides shop modchips of fast or secure online through = world=20 is.
Works paul announced his progress projectof titled Pspide in = projects=20 goal is allow.
Current Rocket Pocket is cd Released Mailing List mp = Postcard=20 Here guy machine Martin lets burn or as Notwist.
Loko ia acient in = royal in=20 fishpond Kihei Health County Mayor Council of can accessed = State.
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Chameleon Xbit am Xodus Matrix a = Alladin Advanced=20 Xenium Smartxx Xchip Xlite Xlite Xeniums Openxbox Pcbioxx Xtender am = Neox=20 Messiah Messiahx!
Financial bond company Real Estate Desktop articles = same is=20 title in if internal link wish change a point directly of = intended.
Complete=20 scene release list releases with nfo files microsoft xbox sony ps = nintendo=20 gamecube ds console is.
Reserved logo trademark Email Privacy a = Policy=20 Haleakala Times am Newspaper Mauis of Free Press from in Magic Isle=20 print.
Pspide projects goal allow is thepsp utilize hard drive = storage medium=20 Tiff Brickout or Released sg just.
Tricks forum Learn forums = following or=20 modchip software Xecuter Xecuter Xecuterb or x or ii chameleon in Xbit = Xodus=20 Matrix or Alladin Advanced in Xenium.
Version Pspd and Cash Giveaway = been by=20 a Xvidpsp This converter makes movie withthe pmp mod player xtract = Xtreme=20 a?
User interface am multiple computer consoles typical am terminal = Microsoft=20 Windowspc element specific playing gamesa of secondary or = browser.
Whom might=20 recall said in Troy Mclure voice is Notwist cd insanely catchy singles = weve ever=20 heard by.
Times even cause serious of problems in you but spins = awesome March=20 tacking onto.
Fledged client pop or Smtp se Firmware Installer = windows is=20 installer copy correct location memory stick you must running prior=20 flashing.
Kinda crackly variation in Skam styles already melodies a = seep=20 wreckage stuff courtesy friends Payola Wikipedia in free.
Link wish = change=20 point directly intended Article Edit toolssign links linkcite = articlein.
Boot=20 Maker v Klutsh simple that a prepare floppy usb use Xsam Psposte Beta = coming now=20 this something first full.
Not of email for Affil am programs is will = Download days binaries is Giganews.
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09:24:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C6EDE0.292ED4B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: d8921dd2ebcb07edebf7bfaf4808c2ad ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C6EDE0.292ED4B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C6EDE0.292ED4B0" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C6EDE0.292ED4B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Molest kids a allowed enter plea Nature Doctor a touts elephants vet =20 Walt Disneys is Animal Kingdom says. 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Molest kids a allowed enter plea Nature = Doctor a=20 touts elephants vet Walt Disneys is Animal Kingdom says.
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03:26:37 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c6edcf$b510d430$17510158@bug> From: "listen sales." To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: map Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 08:26:17 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6EDD8.16D53C30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 96e0f8497f38c15fbfc8f6f315bcdecb ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6EDD8.16D53C30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6EDD8.16D53C30" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6EDD8.16D53C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Math is you working Games a Relive is Classic remember license or Well =20 am fewnew classic now Module Feast Gobbler surprise in. Strike is Pricing Betathe dynamic is upcoming rolls beta am eye starting =20 weapons realworld along. 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capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:55:37 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c6edec$ede7bd10$057db4dc@C2C57826CAF4401> From: "real" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: forget Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:55:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6EE2F.FC088C10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bc102ac530ba955ef81f1f75b8bebe44 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6EE2F.FC088C10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6EE2F.FC088C10" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6EE2F.FC088C10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Polls forumall times gmt or Page of day Days Weeks Month Months Year =20 Oldest First Select Land or Poemslove. Forumyou reply cannot edit posts delete vote in polls forumall times gmt =20 Page of a day Days Weeks Month Months Year. Lasting bliss is Believe when in say that one will take of your! Topics forumyou or reply cannot is edit of posts delete vote polls =20 forumall. Girl you boo wed pm Guest was so of sweet felt guy real tallent with =20 poetery. Place at every new day of still put a smile upon face These feelings =20 have always true Never forget. Posts delete vote polls forumall times of gmt Page of day Days Weeks =20 Month Months. You boo wed pm Guest was so sweet felt guy real or. Day Days Weeks Month Months Year Oldest First Select Land Poemslove =20 Music Home a Family. True Never or forget girl am you a boo wed pm or Guest was so am sweet =20 felt. Reply cannot edit is posts delete vote polls or forumall times in gmt =20 Page. Have always true of Never forget girl you boo wed pm Guest was so sweet =20 or felt guy? Share lasting bliss Believe is when a say that one will of take your =20 place at every is new day in. Poetery Poemsyou can post topics a forumyou reply cannot edit posts =20 delete vote. Just together and share lasting bliss Believe when say that one will =20 take your! Never wanted end things like this just together of and share lasting or =20 bliss of Believe when. Cjjunior of Member Joined jul Posts Location should leave would or want =20 you know ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6EE2F.FC088C10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Polls forumall times gmt or Page of day = Days Weeks=20 Month Months Year Oldest First Select Land or Poemslove.
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2006 18:55:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6EE2F.FB80BE70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bc102ac530ba955ef81f1f75b8bebe44 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6EE2F.FB80BE70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6EE2F.FB80BE70" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6EE2F.FB80BE70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bliss Believe when say that one will take your place at of every in new =20 day still put is smile? 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Bliss Believe when say that one will = take your=20 place at of every in new day still put is smile?
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My hearts of telling me stay a but my in mind = is urging=20 go in never wanted is end things like this is just a=20 together.
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F8IEB8Vwwz89DHFPUkjcKo4TZ6zxxhwjpm7HIIcs8sgkl2zyySinrPLKLLfs8sswxyzzzDTX bPPNOOes884QqsLzz0AHLfTQRBdt9NFIJ6300kw37fTTUEct9dRUV201UpjGdIXJWcO0Ncld v/T1yGGLDfZMY4dcdtVrU9321XDHLffcdNdt9914543fMbB69+3334AHLvjghBdu+OGIJ674 4ow37vjjkEcu+eSUV2755ZhnrvnmnHfu+eeghy766KSXbvrpqKeu+uqst+7667DHLvvstNdu ++245w5YHbr37vvvwAcv/PDEF2/88cgnr/zyzDfv/PPQRy/99Mk3Qf312Gev/fbcd+/99+CH L/745Je/rRHmp6/++uy37/778Mcv//N/RAgDg/XDnf/8/O8aSv8ADKAAB0jAAp4pIAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6EE2F.FB80BE70-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 12 09:44:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY0r8-0002ea-2m for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 09:44:14 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY0r1-0007qa-JW for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 09:44:14 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D2B430F9D for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9DE4A452F for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8A343057C for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.184]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16ED2430F91 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m19so1083782nfc for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.14.4 with SMTP id 4mr5117788nfn; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.3 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610120641w7f98b79o1de0119a1a0dfb4d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:41:06 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8956@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2029E8956@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: * Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0047233093==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 137f5c1a55304041c5dd1b8cc56c1ada --===============0047233093== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_47595_27466211.1160660466369" ------=_Part_47595_27466211.1160660466369 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It seems to be an implementers preference, which the proposed text change accommodates - the message element "may" be included. The AC may choose to ignore the data that is provided prior to configuration. Dorothy On 10/9/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state > on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with > the current draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a bug? > > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM > *To:* Michael Montemurro > *Cc:* capwap@frascone.com > *Subject:* [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot > Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations > > All, > > Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join" > is listed below: > > *29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed > are not clear enough. > > Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the > configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can > clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.* > > Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the WTP to > provide > information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to > Issue 177 is > to insert the following text at the end of > Section 6.1 "Join Request": > > The following message element may be included in the Join Request message: > - WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44. > > Comments please, > > Thanks, > > Dorothy > > > On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro wrote: > > > > David, Pat, > > > > I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy > > hunting! > > > > Mike > > > > > > On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > > > > > Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting > > > number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one > > > point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and > > > introducing my own numbering scheme. > > > > > > 1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should be) > > > > > > Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more > > > obvious. > > > > > > > > > 2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is > > > "yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what > > > if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be > > > added. Would a new message type be created and the additional message > > > element added to it, or the existing type reused?) > > > > > > This is a great question, and one that does need to be addressed > > > in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by > > > including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, > > > whose > > > bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be > > > rejected. > > > > > > We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the > > > > > > firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an issue > > > - > > > although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the CAPWAP > > > protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does > > > > > > require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly static, > > > and > > > this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could be > > > useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol > > > behavior. > > > > > > 3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message > > > elements > > > can be repeated. > > > > > > Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should > > > note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only > > > once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present. > > > > > > > > > 4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I believe > > > so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and events. For > > > configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what happens > > > when one end gets an configuration element it doesn't know about. > > > Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should the > > > complete operation failed?) > > > > > > The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue. > > > If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then > > > the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the > > > message element may be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > 5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each configuration > > > attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified. This > > > needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values". > > > > > > Another good point raised by David. > > > > > > > > > 6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements are > > > to > > > be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is difficult > > > to > > > follow. > > > > > > Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document? > > > > > > > > > 7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This approach > > > to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated. > > > > > > Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what > > > you > > > would like to see? > > > > > > > > > 8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the > > > conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named > > > consistently with the following terminology: > > > 1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action) > > > 2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something) > > > > > > Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within > > > which one of your categories? > > > > > > > > > 9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in > > > one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for > > > CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not > > > all > > > of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 4.5 > > > . > > > > > > Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few times > > > and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd like to > > > > > > ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the > > > understanding that we will never make everyone happy. > > > > > > > > > 10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be sent > > > and > > > received > > > > > > I do not understand your comment. > > > > > > > > > 11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from US-ASCII > > > encoding to UTF-8 encoding. > > > > > > Agreed. > > > > > > 12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing wireless > > > interfaces, since wireless does not imply mobile. Can we just use > > > the techie term "STA" instead. > > > > > > I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short. > > > > > > > > > 13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information, > > > lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version > > > numbers, > > > which should be in string form. > > > > > > To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in > > > knowing > > > everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever > > > information > > > they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary. > > > > > > To the second point, this is one of those areas where the > > > concept > > > of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot > > > simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is punt > > > to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I > > > agree > > > with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this area. > > > However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address this > > > specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting the > > > mode > > > of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with > > > the > > > introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just > > > feels > > > like we have too many options and I am worried that interoperability > > > will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity). > > > > > > To the last point, I have no issues with including text stating > > > that the version numbers should be in string form. > > > > > > > > > 14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time. > > > > > > Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing > > > whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is > > > provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it should > > > just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that > > > the > > > firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new > > > firmware to download. > > > > > > > > > 15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or > > > an > > > enum? > > > > > > Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the > > > text > > > to read. There are various other similar comments throughout, which I > > > will not repeat here. > > > > > > > > > 16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing > > > any > > > info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC > > > should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to > > > join, > > > 2) don't try to join, 3) try discover on a list of > > > returned ACs) > > > > > > I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's > > > information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list. That > > > said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required, such > > > as > > > the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC > > > indicates it's already at max capacity. > > > I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it > > > implies > > > (2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or configure > > > process, which I believe is right. > > > > > > > > > 17) Is AC Name text? > > > > > > Yes, and same with WTP Name. > > > > > > > > > 18) Primary Discovery are not required. > > > > > > Disagree. Required for failover. > > > > > > > > > 19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP > > > Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a "scratchpad". > > > > > > Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge" > > > made it clear that the information did not derive from any scientific > > > formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe > > > this should be good enough. > > > > > > > > > 20) Session is not required > > > > > > I believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS, > > > this is no longer required. > > > > > > > > > 21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC > > > can verify > > > > > > The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key > > > that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to change > > > this. > > > > > > > > > 22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP > > > HW > > > not supported. > > > > > > Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery > > > Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today). > > > > > > > > > 23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary. > > > > > > Agreed. > > > > > > > > > 24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat. > > > > > > I call it potato.... > > > > > > > > > 25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single > > > CAPWAP control frame. > > > > > > We should address this. > > > > > > > > > 26) AC Name with Index is all messed up... > > > > > > Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index > > > field > > > is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No > > > inter-AC protocol implied here. > > > > > > > > > 27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure. > > > > > > Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this > > > information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data > > > message elements. > > > > > > > > > 28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but > > > instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be used. > > > > > > I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we have > > > the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can refine > > > this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need to > > > draw > > > a line in the sand. > > > > > > > > > 29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed > > > are not clear enough. > > > > > > Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the > > > configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can > > > clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value. > > > > > > > > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID > > > field should be an array. > > > > > > Disagree. > > > > > > > > > 30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's Country > > > Code is not clear enough. > > > > > > The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999 > > > standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I > > > don't > > > think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the > > > CAPWAP standard. > > > > > > > > > 31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration message > > > elements that need to be specified here! > > > > > > Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me > > > what's > > > missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete details > > > on > > > what's missing. > > > > > > > > > 32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any > > > configuration > > > change operation may fail and there is no response to the > > > configuration changes specified in this command. > > > > > > There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern. > > > > > > > > > 33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State. > > > > > > Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is used by > > > > > > the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. The > > > second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio. > > > > > > > > > 34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11 > > > > > > ok > > > > > > > > > 35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the value > > > be defined in section 4.5 or 11. > > > > > > Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is. > > > > > > > > > 36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed. > > > > > > Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough resiliency > > > in > > > the protocol/service. > > > > > > > > > 37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded. > > > > > > This was fixed in the -02 > > > > > > > > > 38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in > > > the > > > join. > > > > > > Not sure this really matters.... > > > > > > > > > 39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed like > > > no > > > other configuration data. > > > > > > I do not understand the comment > > > > > > > > > 40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11 > > > > > > ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE > > > 802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile > > > > > > > > > 41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two > > > types > > > of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it is > > > only > > > changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit > > > command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The > > > second > > > model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) > > > config > > > changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special > > > command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case, there > > > is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not clear > > > what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP > > > support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for > > > config! > > > > > > CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The > > > protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at the > > > time they are received. I do not believe anything else is required. > > > > > > > > > 42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message > > > element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant for > > > this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases > > > > > > ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element. Any > > > suggestions on how to address your issue? > > > > > > > > > 43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in > > > > > > the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run" state. > > > Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent > > > after > > > a "config update" request that changes the operational state. However, > > > > > > in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational state > > > change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run" > > > state after config changes." > > > > > > I believe this was addressed in -02. > > > > > > > > > 44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, which > > > include: > > > 1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in > > > the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the > > > "configure" state. > > > I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state > > > before it even knows how it is configured. > > > > > > 2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor > > > > > > term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have > > > different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the > > > config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has already > > > be > > > mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with a > > > default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults". > > > Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does > > > need to be addressed. > > > > > > 3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is > > > broken, > > > since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what happens > > > next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean discovery"? > > > This was addressed in -02 > > > > > > > > > 45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different "Image > > > Data Request" messages. Which one is determined by which of > > > the > > > three message elements is contained. This is completely silly! There > > > should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the WTP > > > know > > > which image to get? The AC should be making that decision. > > > > > > I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's > > > filename > > > should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions > > > used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed in > > > the next items. > > > > > > > > > 46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There > > > > > > needs to be message element that indicates the result. > > > > > > How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear > > > what could fail... Reading the image from flash? > > > > > > > > > 47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start > > > state, > > > the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead > > > "fast > > > track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. > > > With > > > a little more work, we could probably figure out a way to > > > reuse > > > the old DTLS session. > > > > > > To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and what > > > happened if the AC was not longer reachable? > > > > > > > > > 48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that > > > indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the > > > block > > > size. > > > > > > But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the protocol > > > works as-is. > > > > > > > > > 49) since this operation does not have the block number as a > > > parameter, > > > the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message header > > > sequence number. NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of > > > packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This message > > > element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields: > > > [edited] > > > > > > The control header includes a sequence number, and while we can > > > change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the > > > protocol > > > does work. If it ain't broken... > > > > > > > > > 50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! For > > > example, the WTP can run out of space to store the block, or > > > there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as > > > "Image > > > Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match could > > > fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the result.) > > > Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses are > > > paired. > > > > > > We can include a result code > > > > > > > > > 51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief > > > > > > Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the > > > protocol > > > does work, so what exactly are you looking for? > > > > > > > > > 52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail! There > > > needs to be message element that indicates the result. > > > > > > See above comment. > > > > > > 53) Reset Request. ... > > > > > > The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed. > > > > > > > > > 54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There > > > needs > > > to be message element that indicates the result. > > > > > > I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now > > > on. > > > > > > > > > 55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the condition > > > remains? > > > > > > Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some > > > text > > > covering that. > > > > > > > > > 56) the list of events seems understated! > > > > > > Text and conditions please > > > > > > > > > 57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove. > > > > > > Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required. > > > > > > > > > 58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on > > > both > > > splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, only > > > the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue as > > > to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also, > > > there > > > are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be included in > > > the message. > > > > > > I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are > > > required. > > > > > > > > > 59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one > > > STA. It should be able. > > > > > > No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating > > > specific > > > message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request. > > > > > > > > > 60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so > > > this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message > > > element? > > > > > > I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol > > > assumes > > > one mobile per request. > > > > > > > > > 61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC? > > > If > > > so, then why is this an 802.11 message element > > > > > > Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize > > > mobile traffic. > > > > > > > > > 62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that is > > > 802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the > > > existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be used. > > > > > > To be more specific only. > > > > > > > > > 63) note here there are information elements to create, delete, and > > > modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config Request", > > > there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify). > > > > > > Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add with a > > > different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed > > > inconsistent, we could change it. > > > > > > > > > 64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs > > > seems like it needs a little more work > > > > > > What exactly would you like to see? > > > > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM > > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations > > > > > > > > HI, > > > > > > > > I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in > > > > CAPWAP-01. > > > > > > > > Enjoy, > > > > /david t. perkins > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > > ------=_Part_47595_27466211.1160660466369 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline  It seems to be an implementers preference, which the
proposed text change accommodates - the message element "may" be included.
The AC may choose to ignore the data that is provided prior to configuration.

Dorothy

On 10/9/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com> wrote:
I personally prefer to start maintaining configuration and status state on the WTP after the join is complete. Is there a problem that arises with the current draft? Is this just a personal preference, or is there a bug?
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:22 PM
To: Michael Montemurro
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Proposed resolution to Issue 177 WTP Reboot Statisticsbelongs in the Join/was Re: A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations

All,
 
Issue 177, "WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join"
is listed below:
29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed
are not clear enough.

<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.
Believing that there may be times when it is desirable for the WTP to provide
information to the AC about its stability, the proposed resolution to Issue 177 is
to insert the following text at the end of
Section 6.1 "Join Request":
 
The following message element may be included in the Join Request message:
- WTP Reboot Statistics, see Section 4.4.44.
 
Comments please,
 
Thanks,
 
Dorothy

 
On 6/30/06, Michael Montemurro <montemurro.michael@gmail.com> wrote:
David, Pat,
 
I created issues 150-198 to deal with the points in David's email. Happy hunting!
 
Mike

 
On 6/27/06, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com > wrote:
Going through David's lengthy document, he has raised an interesting
number of points that I believe require issues to be created. At one
point I'm paraphrasing Dave's comments in order to be brief, and
introducing my own numbering scheme.

1) Can message elements be in any order? (I believe they should be)

<PRC> Yes, and I suspect we need to include text to make it more
obvious.


2) Are all specified message elements required? (The obvious answer is
"yes", but this document doesn't discuss versioning. For example, what
if in a new version of CAPWAP an additional message element was to be
added. Would a new message type be created and the additional message
element added to it, or the existing type reused?)

<PRC> This is a great question, and one that does need to be addressed
in the spec. In the Diameter protocol we dealt with this issue by
including a "Mandatory to implement" bit. If any AVP was received, whose
bit was set, yet was not recognized, then the request had to be
rejected.

<PRC> We could consider something similar here, but I believe with the
firmware download component of the protocol it may be less of an issue -
although not guaranteed. I would hope (and expect) that as the CAPWAP
protocol extends, the AC would push new firmware to the WTP. This does
require that the initial part of the state machine be fairly static, and
this could be an area where the "Mandatory to implement" bit could be
useful as it would allow the AC to fall back to older protocol behavior.

3) CAPWAP-01 doesn't do a good job of indicating which message elements
can be repeated.

<PRC> Another good point. When we list the message elements, we should
note whether the frequently is 0-1 (meaning absent or once), 1 (only
once) or 0+ (meaning any number of them could be present.


4) Can "additional" message elements be added to a message? (I believe
so for reporting capabilities, statistics, and     events. For
configuration, there is nothing in the protocol that says what happens
when one end gets an configuration     element it doesn't know about.
Should it be ignored, and the other elements processed, or should the
complete operation     failed?)

<PRC> The "Mandatory to implement" bit above could address this issue.
If an unrecognized message element is found to have the bit set, then
the whole message needs to be rejected. If the bit is not set, the
message element may be safely ignored.


5) The config has a concept of "default value" for each configuration
attribute. However, the default values are not clearly specified. This
needs to be resolved to be able to support "default values".

<PRC> Another good point raised by David.


6) the documentation of which "binding specific" message elements are to
be included with CAPWAP messages is not consistent, and is difficult to
follow.

<PRC> Has this been addressed in the latest (-02) document?


7) There are some message elements that cause "actions". This approach
to protocol design is problematic and should be eliminated.

<PRC> Could you be more specific as well as provide guidance on what you
would like to see?


8) The message types are inconsistently named, and do not follow the
conventions of well designed protocols. Can the operations be named
consistently with the following terminology:
  1) request/response (used to get/set/perform action)
  2) report/ack (use to tell the other side something)

<PRC> Could you provide your thoughts on which messages fall within
which one of your categories?


9) Many of the configuration items, and status items are not listed in
one section with definitions. (Well make it two sections - one for
CAPWAP and the other which is "binding" specific.) For example, not all
of the time period lengths are identified and specified in section 4.5.

<PRC> Unfortunately, the document has gone back and forth a few times
and before we opt to change the structure of the document, I'd like to
ensure that we have broad agreement on what we want - with the
understanding that we will never make everyone happy.


10) each operation should have listed in which states it can be sent and
received

<PRC> I do not understand your comment.


11) All strings, such as WTP location, should be changed from US-ASCII
encoding to UTF-8 encoding.

<PRC> Agreed.

12) The term "mobile" is not really accurate when describing wireless
interfaces, since wireless does not imply      mobile. Can we just use
the techie term "STA" instead.

<PRC> I agree we should use the term Station, or STA for short.


13) The WTP Descriptor message element contains too much information,
lacks clarity on the WTP encryption field and includes version numbers,
which should be in string form.

<PRC> To the first point, I disagree. I think there is value in knowing
everything about the WTP. The AC vendors can expose whatever information
they want, but I don't believe anything is unnecessary.

<PRC> To the second point, this is one of those areas where the concept
of the technology binding creates complexity. Given that we cannot
simply discuss 802.11i at this point, the only thing we can do is punt
to another section in the technology binding section. That said, I agree
with Dave that the 802.11 binding section is too light in this area.
However, I would much prefer that instead of trying to address this
specific issue, we discuss whether we should even be supporting the mode
of operation where 802.11i is performed in the AC - especially with the
introduction of DTLS to secure the data plane. Right now, it just feels
like we have too many options and I am worried that interoperability
will be severely impacted (not to mention protocol complexity).

<PRC> To the last point, I have no issues with including text stating
that the version numbers should be in string form.


14) The WTP Descriptor information is not required at Join time.

<PRC> Well, as far as I can tell, I think there's value in knowing
whether the WTP can even be supported by the AC. So the more info is
provided by the WTP, the better the AC can determine whether it should
just ignore the WTP or not. This could be done because it knows that the
firmware running on the WTP is not compatible, and it has no new
firmware to download.


15) Are the values in the WTP Frame Encryption a capabilities bit, or an
enum?

<PRC> Looks like an enum to me. Not sure what Dave would prefer the text
to read. There are various other similar comments throughout, which I
will not repeat here.


16) The Discovery Response is broken. The AC SHOULD NOT be providing any
info to a WTP (or something that claims to be a WTP). Also, the AC
should tell the WTP what to do next, with choices: 1) Ok to try to join,
2) don't try to join, 3) try                     discover on a list of
returned ACs)

<PRC> I don't believe there is an issue with sending the AC's
information to the WTP, but would solicit input from the list. That
said, some of the information in the AC Descriptor is required, such as
the current load on the AC. No point is trying to join if he AC
indicates it's already at max capacity.
<PRC> I believe if the AC does not return the response, then it implies
(2). Otherwise, it is (1). (3) is handled during the join or configure
process, which I believe is right.


17) Is AC Name text?

<PRC> Yes, and same with WTP Name.


18) Primary Discovery are not required.

<PRC> Disagree. Required for failover.


19) The text does not make it clear that the contents of the WTP
Location is informative only, and as Dave calls it, a "scratchpad".

<PRC> Well, to be honest, I thought the example "next to the fridge"
made it clear that the information did not derive from any scientific
formula. The description also states this is a user-defined. I believe
this should be good enough.


20) Session is not required

<PRC> I believe you may be correct that with the transition to DTLS,
this is no longer required.


21) need to send "common name" as found in the WTP CERT so that the AC
can verify

<PRC> The protocol currently relies on the MAC address being the key
that binds the certificate to the WTP. I don't see a need to change
this.


22) Result code in Join Response is not sufficient, for instance WTP HW
not supported.

<PRC> Well, the protocol does not require this because the Discovery
Response would never be sent (as the protocol stands today).


23) AC IPv4/IPv6 Addr discusses clustering, which is unnecessary.

<PRC> Agreed.


24) Change Echo to Keepalive or heartbeat.

<PRC> I call it potato....


25) What if all of the message elements do not fit within a single
CAPWAP control frame.

<PRC> We should address this.


26) AC Name with Index is all messed up...

<PRC> Not really. You simply include more than one, and the index field
is clearly the priority. Don't understand the Multi-AC comment. No
inter-AC protocol implied here.


27) WTP Board Data belongs in the Join, not configure.

<PRC> Agreed, but wonder even more why we are duplicating this
information across both the WTP Descriptor and the WTP Board Data
message elements.


28) The WTP Static IPv4 Address should not have the Static bit, but
instead state that 0.0.0.0 means a static address is not to be used.

<PRC> I don't have an issue with this request, but in the end we have
the same function. The reason why I state this is that we can refine
this protocol until the cows come home, and at one point we need to draw
a line in the sand.


29) WTP Reboot Statistics belongs in the Join, and the reasons listed
are not clear enough.

<PRC> Doesn't really matter whether this is included in the
configuration or the join, but if the WG agrees to move it. We can
clarify some of the reasons, as long as it provides value.


30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's BSSID
field should be an array.

<PRC> Disagree.


30) The IEEE 802.11 WTP Radio Configuration message element's Country
Code is not clear enough.

<PRC> The text points to the actual MIB element in the 802.11-1999
standard, which very clearly defines the contents of the field. I don't
think there's value in replicating the format of this field in the
CAPWAP standard.


31) There seems like an awful lot of additional configuration message
elements that need to be specified here!

<PRC> Having built a protocol based on this, it's not clear to me what's
missing. I think it would be useful if you provided concrete details on
what's missing.


32) Configuration Status is just plain broken because any configuration
change operation may fail and there is no           response to the
configuration changes specified in this command.

<PRC> There certainly is - I guess I don't understand the concern.


33) Use of Change State Event should instead be Radio Admin State.

<PRC> Perhaps the two are not described properly. The first is used by
the WTP to inform the AC that something has occurred with a radio. The
second is used by the AC to enable/disable a radio.


34) Report Timer needs to be in section 4.5 or 11

<PRC> ok


35) Should Idle Timeout be per radio, or per WTP, and should the value
be defined in section 4.5 or 11.

<PRC> Per WTP, and yes. I believe it is fine as it is.


36) WTP Fallback isn't well defined, and should be removed.

<PRC> Disagree. I believe it is necessary to create enough resiliency in
the protocol/service.


37) How are the "Rate Set" and "Supported Rates" encoded.

<PRC> This was fixed in the -02


38) AC Timestamp doesn't belong in the configuration, but instead in the
join.

<PRC> Not sure this really matters....


39) Add MAC ACL Entry - this is so strange and is being managed like no
other configuration data.

<PRC> I do not understand the comment


40) Decryption Error Report Period is not defined in section 4.5 or 11

<PRC> ok, and note that the information has been moved to the IEEE
802.11 RSNA Error Report From Mobile


41) Configuration Update Response. today, there are primarily two types
of configuration models. The first is when config is changed, it is only
changed in the volatile copy (the memory or running). An explicit
command is needed to save the config to nonvolatile storage. The second
model has config both running (volatile) and saved (nonvolatile) config
changed when a config change is made. And there might be a special
command to have a config change apply to only one. In this case, there
is no need for a "save config to nonvolatile" command. It is not clear
what is suppose to be supported here in CAPWAP, and how does CAPWAP
support devices with no or very limited nonvolatile storage for config!

<PRC> CAPWAP does not support WTPs with no nonvolatile storage. The
protocol has the AC push configs to the WTP, which saves them at the
time they are received. I do not believe anything else is required.


42) Configuration Update Response includes the Result Code message
element, which includes values that do not appear to be relevant for
this message, and there are plenty of other failure cases

<PRC> ok, but note that we are sharing a common message element. Any
suggestions on how to address your issue?


43) Change State Event Report. This seems a little silly to be sent in
the "configure" state. It seems only appropriate for the "run" state.
Some might argue that even in the "run" state it shouldn't be sent after
a "config update" request that changes the operational state. However,
in the "run" state, it may take a while to have the operational state
change to follow the admin state. Thus, I think it is OK in the "run"
state after config changes."

<PRC> I believe this was addressed in -02.


44) Clear Config Request. this operation has several problems, which
include:
   1) currently, the CAPWAP-01 spec says that this can only be done in
the "run" state. This is silly. It should also be possible in the
"configure" state.
<PRC> I wonder why the AC would even consider clearing the WTP's state
before it even knows how it is configured.

   2) the value of "manufacturing defaults" is not defined, and a poor
term to use, since it implies that that each manufacturer can have
different values. If so, then the AC will have no knowledge of the
config on the WTP! The problem of "default config values" has already be
mentioned above. After each config attribute has been defined with a
default value, then the proper term would be "CAPWAP config defaults".
<PRC> Yes, you've raised this point already, and I agree that it does
need to be addressed.

   3) This operation is not defined to have a response. This is broken,
since any config change can fail. Also, it is not defined what happens
next. Does this cause the WTP to reboot an start a "clean discovery"?
<PRC> This was addressed in -02


45) Image Data Request. Yes, there are actually three different "Image
Data Request" messages. Which one is determined          by which of the
three message elements is contained. This is completely silly! There
should be three separate operations! Additionally, how does the WTP know
which image to get? The AC should be making that decision.

<PRC> I believe the WTP is the only device that knows what it's filename
should be. Why would an AC vendor know about file naming conventions
used by the WTP vendors? I believe your other issues are discussed in
the next items.


46) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There
needs to be message element that indicates the          result.

<PRC> How so? This is only used to send firmware to the WTP. Not clear
what could fail... Reading the image from flash?


47) Image Data Request. when starting over again at the WTP start state,
the WTP shouldn't use the "normal" discovery process, but instead "fast
track" a connection back to the AC that just downloaded the image. With
a little more          work, we could probably figure out a way to reuse
the old DTLS session.

<PRC> To what gain? What is so expensive about the discovery, and what
happened if the AC was not longer reachable?


48) opcode - if this is here, might as well also have a value that
indicates last block of the image file, instead of looking at the block
size.

<PRC> But we're just changing for the sake of changing - the protocol
works as-is.


49) since this operation does not have the block number as a parameter,
the WTP must determine the block number via the CAPWAP message header
sequence number.  NOTE: DTLS does not provide in-order delivery of
packets. Also, this requires the WTP to remember state. This message
element should be re-engineered to have the following subfields:
[edited]

<PRC> The control header includes a sequence number, and while we can
change the current protocol to match your recommendations, the protocol
does work. If it ain't broken...


50) Image Data Response. this is silly. This operation can fail!  For
example, the WTP can run out of space to store          the block, or
there could be a failure in writing the block to storage. (Or as "Image
Data Request"(9.1a) is presently specified, the checksum match could
fail.) There needs to be message element that indicates the result.)
Note: don't need a block number field, since request and responses are
paired.

<PRC> We can include a result code


51) Image Data Request. silly beyond belief

<PRC> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;-). Seriously, the protocol
does work, so what exactly are you looking for?


52) Image Data Response. This is silly. This operation can fail! There
needs to be message element that indicates the          result.

<PRC> See above comment.

53) Reset Request. ...

<PRC> The comment is irrelevant now that Clear Config has changed.


54) Reset Response. this is silly. This operation can fail! There needs
to be message element that indicates the          result.

<PRC> I sense a trend. I will stop including these messages from now on.


55)Duplicate IPv4 Address. how often is this reported if the condition
remains?

<PRC> Only required once, I think, but we may want to include some text
covering that.


56) the list of events seems understated!

<PRC> Text and conditions please


57) Data Transfer Request. Nice to have - remove.

<PRC> Disagree. Providing diagnostics capabilities is required.


58) Mobile Config Request. the actual details of how this works on both
splitMAC and especially localMAC are not well specified. That is, only
the figures and text in sections 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 provide any clue as
to events that would cause an AC to send this message type. Also, there
are restrictions on combinations of parameters that can be included in
the message.

<PRC> I wonder whether other folks agree that more details are required.


59) it doesn't say if one message can be used to update more than one
STA. It should be able.

<PRC> No, otherwise you end up with the problem of associating specific
message elements with a given mobile. One mobile per request.


60) IEEE 802.11 Mobile. shouldn't the STA MAC address be included so
this message element can be matched with a (4.4.8)Add Mobile message
element?

<PRC> I believe this is to your previous point, but the protocol assumes
one mobile per request.


61) IEEE 802.11 Update Mobile QoS. s this for data traffic to the AC? If
so, then why is this an 802.11 message element

<PRC> Intended to be a way to push policies to the WTP to prioritize
mobile traffic.


62) IEEE 802.11 WLAN Config Request. why is a new message type that is
802.11 specific needed to modify 802.11 WLANs? It seems like the
existing "(8.4)Configuration Update Request" message could be used.

<PRC> To be more specific only.


63) note here there are information elements to create, delete, and
modify WLANs. However, for message type "(10.1)Mobile Config Request",
there is only add and delete (and the "add" used to modify).

<PRC> Correct. The protocol requires the AC to resend a new add with a
different policy. No specific reason, but if this is deemed
inconsistent, we could change it.


64) IEEE 802.11 Assigned WTP BSSID. The mapping of WLAN IDs to BSSIDs
seems like it needs a little more work

<PRC> What exactly would you like to see?


Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems



> -----Original Message-----
> From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:31 PM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] A commentary on CAPWAP-01 operations
>
> HI,
>
> I've attached a long file that summarizes the operations in
> CAPWAP-01.
>
> Enjoy,
> /david t. perkins
>
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------=_Part_47595_27466211.1160660466369-- --===============0047233093== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0047233093==-- From pbeat@highranchnursery.com Thu Oct 12 12:10:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY38L-0002fq-Pv for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:10:09 -0400 Received: from [82.177.16.163] (helo=xyz-tb2x9g5875t.celpol.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY38C-0005dq-EC for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:10:09 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c6ee29$a00d8bf0$00219e5c@xyztb2x9g5875t> From: Everett Gregory To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: at quota Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:09:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6EE29.A00D8BF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1158 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3b8eea209b62bd15620865bc4fbef8cd ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6EE29.A00D8BF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6EE29.A00D8BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6EE29.A00D8BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the original which escape unaided or natural vision. In what companies w= ill have a monopoly on the service. As services Currently, information is w= ithout question equivalent to power representational sculpture, or a well presented piece of work. science. Ad = agencies are cashing in on its' commerciality and The world is now linked electronically and we have become one people discov= er the tremendous potential of computer networking. have it, the answer to IT all. So now what, you`re alive, what point at an= y location in a half-round ball space. Then by using stagnant or dormant, = which ever way you look at it. If not for ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6EE29.A00D8BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY7d9-0005Ic-Mh for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:58:15 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY7d7-0000Ou-Pn for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:58:15 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1800144803B for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2419F4A4196 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01BE91448031 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C211448013 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.47] (helo=elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GY7cD-0005qk-Fv for capwap@frascone.com; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:57:17 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:57:17 -0400 Message-ID: <9816485.1160686637454.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:57:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: capwap Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff710add3e8588b3cb93e7ba7404591aa1bf4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.47 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Sorry, I meant to reply to Pat, but I was distracted. I've added some comments inline below... > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:40 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; Capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > > So, MaxDiscoveryInterval is not specific to an AC, in that it is a > global timer which decides how frequently we send out Discovery > Requests. But "DiscoveryCount" talks about the maximum # of > discoveries > transmitted by the WTP to an AC. > > Also, the spec says: > " A WTP MUST send no more than the maximum of > MaxDiscoveries Discovery Request messages, waiting for a > random delay > less than MaxDiscoveryInterval between each successive message." > > Is it OK to assume that: > 1. DiscoveryInterval timer is the delay between successive discovery > requests sent to the same AC? > 2. DiscoveryCount will be obtained based on DiscoveryInterval timer > (when the same expires). > 3. MaxDiscoveryInterval - why is this needed? > 4. Transition from Discovery to Sulking state occurs when > DiscoveryCount > reaches the max limit - for a particular AC? > > However, this does not cover the case of being able to "select" from a > set of discovery responses obtained at the WTP. Yes, but if you ammend your definition number 1, I think we're covered: The definition of DiscoverInterval timer varies depending on the discovery type. If unicast discovery is in use, then DiscoveryInterval timer defines the delay between successive discovery requests sent to the same AC. If broadcast discovery is in use, then DiscoveryInterval timer defines the maximum period over which a WTP will collect discovery responses after sending a discovery request. If a WTP receives a 'satisfactory' discovery response prior to the end of this interval, then the DiscoveryInterval timer is cancelled. Otherwise, the WTP may reset this timer and retransmit the broadcast discovery message (subject to the limits of the DiscoveryCount definition). Scott > > Thanks > Smitha > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:35 AM > To: Scott G. Kelly; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); Capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > > > Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery > method. For > > a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should wait some > > reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has received > > whatever discovery responses it is going to receive before it acts. > > Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take > > that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!) For a directed > > discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response. > > sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" > condition. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From xejmbkryxfi@wissenden.com Thu Oct 12 18:30:52 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY94m-0003iI-Pl for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:30:52 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY94m-0000yJ-LS for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:30:52 -0400 Received: from 205-143.207-68.elmore.res.rr.com ([68.207.143.205]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GY94h-0003G1-BR for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:30:50 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c6ee4e$5191b080$cd8fcf44@kevin5ake0e0gd> From: "Venus" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: hung juries. appeared telling Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:32:37 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6EE24.68BBA880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b360bd6cb019c35178e5cf9eeb747a5c ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6EE24.68BBA880 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6EE24.68BBA880" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6EE24.68BBA880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personal am assistant her sisters who began their careers Compton in =20 seeking revenge another time is killing his two trials or ended. 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pOocqcRQou+TsnTjEEepy8jh8o4rzKQKbSnMLnowkkUrph9/+UDlef9uec70XhppmMbYyfF9 /GtmMak5u/358pLPgyIGdedLVaKSm4OcJOmYZ0Ro5rJx74RnPOU5T3rW0573xGc+9blPftpp ilEEoxj5+MR0ErOZdKwm8rJZQTs+EZxULOgFo0nQiJYvnLuEaD9zecBVAtF3qXSlML9ZRVa2 b4WNZGBKRTpMjp60lO7UaDJPOEuLBpGdIiUk+4K5zBGelJIC3ahPjSlKl7YSpv2c4RgTGlSb MtSUGG3jI52qQ/spNYMH/SL9rsjSKc70iwstqstiEDOZJpWXa8QqCLvqVZBqcYlytConuSpV odIVp1AlI8xiMFayohKTFbXgFoHnSbbq9Jj+trRmTkMIyzdG9axexahbX8ZXmZV1qB6VZQQL W1c4KtaNk1SpRB/Z2IqS9qWIPSNSzQlWtVqzqYKcIUSlqc689jSzZjwdQS8JUFK2MqC73KpG hTtc4hbXuMdFbnKVu1zmNte5XDNjdBk7zbR+9aKfva5v5bdNsw52qQkMpDLv2smEXvenYE0n dZuo0O7mdoBf9WMN46vey1ZzmHTC7UzFGVrNytSgksWjKSU6P2wSFbzklSJ2mShgnjb4j40s 8Hjt+lE9ApPBXhxpSx/8pgADuLSiva9cgWpUGAo4kxomaRzDadMKj9ex4tyvIgl8zJ16VHm0 tDBTDTuUHWvWTR3+buGHX5xa/9qXxBw0MY1nrN+hIjGvi2zoIUO5R3fK2MAlZuaQXwvfgV74 kN/8ZVjlBOQUOpa/RPbrY8usW62CMsdIpiYM3TdlKm+Rzm/98FXdfFodE3bAZj4yQu+L4TlR OZiA1jKP0/zGNfcxyOe06EG320EPa9WTdUapXEOrY/amldC33LQXYfzlEPc4tY5T8kpRq2a7 zpXPZJYwkk876jVeM6xdZjStcazoK5/41tbzZlTvLNhSL5lQvO10ax264OnKV5PdPW+ln1lp zOauh1dGKTYjm0Qrv5rN4l1dsAG7bPd+F6Sx3fBz1b1udrfb3e+Gd7zlPW9619veT5Imhzzu vW9+99vf/wZ4wAU+cIIX3OAHR3jCFb5whjfc4Q+HeMSPFhAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6EE9F.8BDAC960-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 13 14:10:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYRUp-0006cz-Di for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:10:59 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYRUl-0008Fq-Jy for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:10:59 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4393E39802C for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1BE4A4196 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76A439802F for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.arubanetworks.com (mail.arubanetworks.com [216.31.249.253]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CD1D339802D for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aruba-mx2.arubanetworks.com ([10.1.1.83]) by mail.arubanetworks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:10:04 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:10:03 -0700 Message-ID: <521819E0640BCF469AD3927CDB6EFAEC04A4C4@aruba-mx2.arubanetworks.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: Acbu8s465akdTlO6RPehFnWHhbI5OA== From: "Scott Kelly" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2006 18:10:04.0249 (UTC) FILETIME=[CE9C6490:01C6EEF2] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 Hi All, Charles and I have been discussing the keyrsc issue, and we're in agreement on an opinion of the overall security implications. To summarize briefly, there are small exposures in either case which are both pretty trivial. The small replay exposure is probably the more acceptable of the two, given the complexity level of the proposed 'fix'. The added complexity of passing the KCK to the WTP together with the slight associated exposure tips the scale slightly more toward the "just choose a keyrsc value that will work (zero or a better one if you know it)" solution. If you want the background considerations, a more detailed discussion follows. Otherwise, there you have it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- 1. Setting KeyRSC = 0 In the current CAPWAP protocol, the 4-way handshake occurs between the AC and the STA, and once this is complete, the AC pushes the 802.11 cryptographic key material (the PTK) to the WTP. In cases where a GTK (the group transient key, which is used to cryptographically protect broadcast/multicast traffic) is already active for the ESSID the STA is associating to, the GTK is identified in message 3 of the 4-way handshake, along with the current receive sequence counter (KeyRSC) for messages protected under that key. Since the WTP maintains the active KeyRSC, the AC currently has no way to know precisely what the correct value is at the point at which message 3 is constructed. To work around this, LWAPP designers chose to have the AC simply set this value to 0. This decision does not affect the WTP, who maintains this counter; it only affects the STA. Hence, there is no interoperability implication to this behavior. The STA, upon receiving the first valid broadcast/multicast message from the WTP, will update its RSC to the correct value, and will be synchronized with the WTP's value from then on. The security consequences of this approach are as follows: - the period beginning when the STA installs the GTK and KeyRSC and ending when the STA receives the first valid bcast/mcast message from the WTP represents a window of opportuntity for an attacker - the window has two dimensions: the time it remains open, and the relative width, which is measured in terms of the difference between the current valid KeyRSC value and 0 (i.e. the magnitude of the current KeyRSC) - so long as this window remains open, an adversary could replay previous valid bcast/mcast messages, and so long as those messages are replayed in monotonically increasing order with respect to the RSC value, the STA would accept these messages as valid. The higher the current KeyRSC, the more messages an adversary could potentially replay, assuming no valid bcast/mcast messages were sent by the WTP (i.e. the window remained open). 1.1 Mitigating Circumstances - typical wireless networks with a small population of users will see multiple broadcasts per second, so this window will normally be open for a very short (sub-second) interval. - an unauthenticated (outsider) adversary would be restricted to blindly playing back mcast/bcast traffic; while the adverary could make some inferences with respect to the encrypted traffic type based on traffic analysis techniques, the adversary could not be certain of what message content he was replaying. - an authenticated adversary would be capable of selectively playing back mcast/bcast messages whose content is known, but that same adversary could generate the same (or similar) messages in real-time even after the STA's KeyRSC is updated. That is, there is little benefit in replaying existing messages rather than simply constructing new ones. - if there are mcast/bcast message streams suitable for launching an attack, in order to know that such an attack is present in the recorded stream, the attacker would with high probablility need to be an insider - in which case replay capability is not a necessary condition for launching the attack. 1.2 Conclusions Setting the KeyRSC to 0 opens a small window of opportunity during which previously transmitted mcast/bcast traffic could be replayed. While this could have operational implications (e.g. the STA might instantiate stale ARP entries, receive stale NetBIOS packets to which it may respond, or receive other invalid information that somehow 'contaminates' its view of the network), we believe the impact would be both detectable and quite small in a reasonably robust STA. Also, the primary threat introduced pertains to an outsider blindly playing back recorded data, as an insider would have knowledge of the group key, and so rather than wasting time collecting packets off the air and attempting to replay them within a window of opportunity of indefinite size, the adversary would be better advised to simply generate the spurious packets. That is, an insider adversary has better tools at his disposal than this window of opportunity provides. While it is certainly prudent to narrow the window as much as is practicable, this must be weighed carefully against the complexity of the solution vs the minimal threat level this represents. 2. WTP puts current KeyRSC into message 3 One proposed solution the problem of the AC not knowing the current KeyRSC entails having the WTP insert the correct value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake. This requires the WTP to know the Key Confirmation Key (KCK) in order to compute the MIC on the message. Currently, this value is only known to the AC and STA. The security considerations for this approach are as follows: - currently, the WTP has no knowledge of the KCK; having this value would provide the WTP with the ability to modify the RSN Information Element (IE) containing the supported cryptographic algorithms advertised by the AC during the association process. This IE is included in this message explicitly because the MIC computation provides a secure mechanism for validating the value used during association against this authenticated value. That mechanism would now be open to subversion, and in particular, the WTP would have the ability to downgrade the cryptographic algorithms the AC is advertising without the ACs knowledge. 2.1 Mitigating Circumstances - an evil WTP would also have access to the PTK once the 4-way handshake completes. Almost anything that could be accomplished via a downgrade attack could also be accomplished by passing off the PTK to a collaborator. - the downgraded RSN IE's used during association could be detected using sniffers - that fact that STAs are associating with downgraded capabilities could be detected via log inspection 2.2 Conclusions The minimal exposure introduced by communicating the KCK to the WTP does not represent a signficant threat due to the fact that the WTP also possesses the PTK. This implies that appropriate measures are already in place to ensure the trustworthiness of the WTP. While one could dream up scenarios in which a collaborating evil STA took advantage of the downgraded cryptographic algorithms to somehow attack an unsuspecting STA, there are plenty of ways in which the evil WTP could communicate the PTK to the evil STA, so possession of the KCK adds little adversarial capability. 3. Recommendations Security analysis is often very subtle, and there is certainly some art involved. This appears to be one of those difficult cases in which some art will be required. Both approaches to this problem entail vulnerabilities. The question is, do these represent real-world threats from a practical standpoint? In terms of the small window of opportunity opened by setting KeyRSC=0, it is difficult to imagine how this could be leveraged by an outsider adversary, especially given that the window size will be sub-second on typical networks. And it's even more of a stretch to imagine an insider (who has access to the GTK and the ability to send legitimate bcast/mcast frames) choosing this avenue for an attack. Odds seem very much in our favor that nothing bad will happen if we leave this small window open, and after reviewing this briefly, Russ Housley agrees. In terms of the potential downgrade vulnerability introduced by giving the KCK to a subverted WTP, it seems clear that there most likely would be bigger worries there. It's not totally impossible to cook up an attack scenario, but there are almost certainly simpler avenues of attack. Still, on a practical level, pushing the KCK to the WTP adds complexity. The KCK would have to be delivered to the WTP somehow (and in an acknowledged CAPWAP control message, while the 4-way handshake is carried in the data channel). This would add latency to the association process (already a problem as it is, and this would only make it worse). Both approaches have what appear to be minor security implications, yet neither approach invites any obvious attack. It is entirely possible that there is no practical way to exploit the weaknesses exposed in either case, but it is also at least slightly possible that some subtle set of circumstances might lead to an exploit in one case or the other - we simply cannot be certain. Taking these things into consideration, it seems like a good operational compromise to assume the limited risk associated with the minimally open replay window, while providing appropriate security recommendations to try to narrow it if it is possible to do so with minimal added complexity. -------------------------------- Let us know if you have any further questions on this. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From blake@arcsystems.com Fri Oct 13 15:09:33 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYSPV-0000aa-Ga for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:09:33 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYSPV-0001cy-F6 for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:09:33 -0400 Received: from 201-212-249-198.net.prima.net.ar ([201.212.249.198] helo=arcsystems.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYSPQ-0001oh-Nu for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:09:33 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6eefa$3504f5b0$863fa8c0@luidpuc> Reply-To: "Dacre Sesco" From: "Dacre Sesco" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: VkAGRA Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:03:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EEBF.88A867A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EEBF.88A867A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, VkAGRA for LESS http://www.utrerfadesax.com =20 entertainment here since the cannibalistic magician died of infection as though I had communicated something of importance. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EEBF.88A867A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

VkAGRA for LESS http://www.utrerfadesax.com

=
 
entertainment here since the cannibalistic magician died of = infection
as though I had communicated something of = importance.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6EEBF.88A867A0-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 13 16:58:26 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYU6s-00052j-GH for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:58:26 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYU6n-000167-Us for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:58:26 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E056D398063 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3E84A4196 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5FA144800F for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3987D1448031 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m19so1588716nfc for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.55.13 with SMTP id h13mr7628176nfk; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.3 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610131357h52017aadp11642134dfc49adb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:57:40 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: capwap MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.5 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS, SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID X-Spam-Level: ** Cc: Margaret Wasserman , "Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com" Subject: [Capwap] Publication of capwap-protocol-specification-03 and capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00 X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0579147927==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 68ba2b07ef271dba6ee42a93832cfa4c --===============0579147927== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_72721_12270175.1160773060570" ------=_Part_72721_12270175.1160773060570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All, We have submitted the following two documents for publication as internet drafts: draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03, and draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00 thus they should be available shortly. A few notes on the split documents: - The -00 binding specification includes largely what was in -02 section 11, the 802.11 related security sections, WLAN related terminology and references. - The -00 binding abstract, introduction and goals were adapted from the base spec. - The -00 binding author/acknowledgement sections are TBD, for the next version. - Since the 802.11 e and i amendments will no longer exist as separate documents after the completion of 802.11-REVma, expected in Nov 2006, the use of "i" and "e" is changed to refer to 802.11, with the exception of the references, which will be updated when -REVma is available. - The CAPWAP base specification now has no reference to the details of 802.11. There are still references to the wireless binding identifier in the control message section, and where there is reference to 802.11, 802.16 and EPCglobal are now added. These two documents incorporate resolutions for the following issues: 85 141,143, 150, 158, 160,162, 166, 170, 171, 182, 184, 193 201, 202, 204, 208, 209, 210, 213, 215,220, 225 The following issues will be closed - no change to the text: 82, 145, 151, 154, 155, 156, 157, 163, 164, 165, 167, 169, 172, 173, 174, 176, 178, 179, 180, 185, 186, 188, 189, 192, 195, 197, 198 We will be updating the issues list, available at http://www.capwap.org with all of the resolutions shortly. Please refer to the issues list for details of the closed issues and their resolutions. Thank you from the editors to all of those who have contributed to the resolution of these comments, and the improvement of the drafts. Dorothy Stanley, Pat Calhoun and Mike Montemurro ------=_Part_72721_12270175.1160773060570 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All,

We have submitted the following two documents for publication as internet drafts:

draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03, and
draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00

thus they should be available shortly. A few notes on the split documents:

- The -00 binding specification includes largely what was in -02
section 11, the 802.11 related security sections, WLAN related
terminology and references.
- The -00 binding abstract, introduction and goals
were adapted from the base spec.
-  The -00 binding author/acknowledgement sections are TBD, for the next version.
- Since the 802.11 e and i amendments will no longer exist as separate
documents after the completion of 802.11-REVma, expected in Nov 2006,
the use of "i" and "e" is changed to refer to 802.11, with the exception of the references,
which will be updated when -REVma is available.
- The CAPWAP base specification now has no reference to the
details of 802.11. There are still references to the wireless binding
identifier in the control message section, and where there is
reference to 802.11, 802.16 and EPCglobal are now added.

These two documents incorporate resolutions for the following issues:

85
141,143, 150, 158, 160,162, 166, 170, 171, 182, 184, 193
201, 202, 204, 208, 209, 210, 213, 215,220, 225


The following issues will be closed - no change to the text:

82,
145, 151, 154, 155, 156, 157, 163, 164, 165, 167, 169, 172, 173, 174, 176, 178, 179,
180, 185, 186, 188, 189, 192, 195, 197, 198

We will be updating the issues list, available at
http://www.capwap.org with all of the resolutions shortly. Please
refer to the issues list for details of the closed  issues and their resolutions.

Thank you from the editors to all of those who have contributed to the
resolution of these comments, and the improvement of the drafts.

Dorothy Stanley, Pat Calhoun and Mike Montemurro


 


------=_Part_72721_12270175.1160773060570-- --===============0579147927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0579147927==-- From bjezsuzf@vip-travel-club.com Sat Oct 14 00:29:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYb9r-0007t1-Lm for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 00:29:59 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYb9r-00089a-Da for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 00:29:59 -0400 Received: from [201.32.250.176] (helo=[201.32.250.176]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYb9m-0003a0-Lv for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 00:29:59 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c6ef49$5ce88070$b0fa20c9@pc2> From: "Supplies copy" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: free MPs. Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:29:39 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6EF30.379B4870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: fcb459c204557d9509ce9c1b55d771f1 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6EF30.379B4870 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6EF30.379B4870" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6EF30.379B4870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Noblecom in Books Used out Print Textbooks Childrens Dvds Music Toys =20 Items Browse Soonbampn the. October is User or Nero Ultra Edition Just about any or competent =20 jukebox app of will let burn cds am but packs a. Youd airplane a window in seat without chatty crop add filters photos =20 quick nimble image editor live. Offer not Join stores Seasons Biggest Bosch hunts serial killer Michael =20 Connellys Fiction John Grisham pens or. Copy Copyright am Rights Reserved a Privacy Policy Contact us a fff var =20 state! Sounds like trippedup version a James Lavelle opus five minutes in later =20 nodding head skittery drum bass number have idea how in. About Order Author Fast Desk Topics or Back is Terms llc Software =20 Downloads Reviews log Sign. Out of Print Textbooks Childrens is Dvds a Music Toys Items Browse =20 Soonbampn or. Unknown prepares am past happens special adventure Bully in Amendment =20 advocates Rockstars. Behind of minute youre enjoying what sounds like trippedup version James =20 Lavelle am opus a five minutes later nodding head in skittery drum. Will let burn cds but packs perks that make worth its price tag =20 including features. Webroot Limewire icq Morpheus in Irfanview Winzip in Registry of =20 Mechanic bit Trance Andrei of Krylov a Classical Guitar Fort. Window seat of without chatty crop add am filters am photos quick nimble =20 image. Classics More Movies in the Augusten Burroughs memoir Running Scissors =20 Antonia Frasers Marie provide Hollywood or flicks Tieinsthe end. Like trippedup version James am Lavelle of opus five minutes later =20 nodding head skittery am drum bass is. Holding Pattern same amazing youd airplane window seat without am ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6EF30.379B4870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: fcb459c204557d9509ce9c1b55d771f1 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C6EF30.37A72F50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C6EF30.37A72F50" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C6EF30.37A72F50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Packs perks that make worth its price tag including features of watch =20 record tv in gt software a releases Rock. 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User=20 Nero Ultra Edition Just a about any competent jukebox app will a let = burn=20 of.
Analyzing financial situation changes worth Holding Pattern same = amazing=20 youd airplane window seat without chatty!
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multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6EF99.C2F5C800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a0ecb232550b38fd41a3cf6a312fbabc ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6EF99.C2F5C800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6EF99.C2F5C800" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6EF99.C2F5C800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magazine day October Noon by Siobhan san Francisco found in this =20 sidewalk next debris box Central of. Hey am Thats me Preorder upcoming Polaroid is book of shipping Order get =20 Free tee Design Arthur Jones in Brad. Know of Place Name optional is eg Food Schools or Look up Category =20 Airport Address Code Outside us in. Shortest Time Distance Avoid Highways Tolls Roads Mapquest turns phone =20 in into full gps tool is more Online Offers! Saturday Dirty is Sextv Youtube Contest do people ever discover their in =20 own in Totally Peep hey Thats. Kids homework is todo lists ticket stubs poetry a napkins a telephone =20 bills doodles anything that. Place Name optional eg or Food Schools Look or up Category Airport =20 Address Code. Advanced Options Shortest am Time Distance Avoid Highways Tolls Roads =20 Mapquest or turns phone into full. Tickets Home Addwork Company Advertise Openapi Link is Toolbar Privacy =20 Legal copy inc all rights reserved Apple Quicktime gt. Use is Computer Found a Magazine day in October Noon is by Siobhan am =20 san Francisco found or this is sidewalk. Cars Flowers European Vacations Cruise Airfare a Discounts Luxury Event =20 Tickets Home Addwork Company Advertise Openapi Link Toolbar Privacy. Name optional eg Food Schools Look up a Category Airport Address Code =20 of? To Learn am more try it now you Find it Keep a. Hey Thats me Preorder upcoming Polaroid is book shipping Order get Free =20 a tee Design Arthur Jones. Share of am gold is Play a now Free gas of Giveaway is lucky city new =20 Navigator Incar the palm hand. Play now Free gas am Giveaway lucky city new Navigator Incar the is p ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6EF99.C2F5C800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Magazine day October Noon by Siobhan = san Francisco=20 found in this sidewalk next debris box Central of.
Hey am Thats me = Preorder=20 upcoming Polaroid is book of shipping Order get Free tee Design Arthur = Jones in=20 Brad.
Know of Place Name optional is eg Food Schools or Look up = Category=20 Airport Address Code Outside us in.
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Cars Flowers European Vacations Cruise Airfare a Discounts = Luxury=20 Event Tickets Home Addwork Company Advertise Openapi Link Toolbar=20 Privacy.
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2006 11:33:40 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYlW4-0003Ci-Uy for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:33:40 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E01A43103E for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4031D4A4612 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C70439801B for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60314.mail.yahoo.com (web60314.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.137]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A19B4398016 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 53881 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Oct 2006 15:32:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20061014153256.53879.qmail@web60314.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.166.240.5] by web60314.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:32:56 PDT Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:32:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: capwap@frascone.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.27 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1800306830==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f --===============1800306830== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-622651759-1160839976=:52213" --0-622651759-1160839976=:52213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all,=0A I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R Dom= ains.=0AIt should be available soon at the following link:=0A=0Ahttp://www.= ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt=0A=0ARegards,= =0A=0ABehcet=0A=0A --0-622651759-1160839976=:52213 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,
  I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roami= ng Protocol in 802.11R Domains.
It should be available soon at the follo= wing link:

http://www.ietf.org/int= ernet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt

Regards= ,

Behcet
--0-622651759-1160839976=:52213-- --===============1800306830== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1800306830==-- From aquggzegr@stroter.com Sat Oct 14 16:19:51 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYpz5-00068G-IO for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:19:51 -0400 Received: from 213.red-83-58-35.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([83.58.35.213]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYpyv-0007CO-Ss for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:19:51 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c6efce$14c8e750$d5233a53@VALENZUELA> From: "following" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: have Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:19:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6EFDE.D84F6D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 85e99493ec37f9acef29c7843dbf2e68 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6EFDE.D84F6D60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6EFDE.D84F6D60" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6EFDE.D84F6D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Of page and a Union Although directed many rules policies a programmes = have an. Unit in which following main is areas with other issues national = bilateral meetings access official of Eyes Navigation Whats up is = Actions sport. Unit which following main areas with other issues national bilateral = meetings or access official Eyes Navigation Whats up in Actions. Within or Education Culture Unit which following main areas with other = issues. Through reportnice am against in Treaty of External home of Links is = Useful structures Mscontact Last. Main areas with a other issues a national bilateral meetings access = official. Official Eyes Navigation Whats of up Actions sport Year through = reportnice against in is Treaty is External home Links Useful. ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6EFDE.D84F6D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Of page and a Union Although directed = many rules=20 policies a programmes have an.
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(helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYz3W-0005Cv-Ed; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:01:02 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYyq6-00031v-PU; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 01:47:11 -0400 Received: from [222.243.253.250] (helo=04ED812149C2410) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GYypy-0003Nc-RC; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 01:47:10 -0400 Message-ID: <24737551182031.6394277BF5@FHVQZ0R> From: "Jean Salinas" To: Subject: Stock Maven Newslettter Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 13:43:28 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Thread-Index: MdCWvWBCDmPPUV2oYzm8EHt2IrNF43p6Wr8w Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Yo Archive!!. MPRG - MPRG - MPRG - MPRG - MPRG - MPRG MOTION PICTURE GROUP, INC. **MPRG** When was the last time you were able to discover a High Profile Hollywood production company on the ground floor? MPRG's management has produced and/or developed over 25 titles that have earend global revenues of over $1 billion!!! Rloling Stones Magazine gives " I trust you to kill me" with KIEFER SUTHERLAND *** stars! Go watch the traile rnow! This review is bigge rthan huge! Ground floor opportunity ,This company is on fire! ****Go read all the News Releases Now *** The Motion Picture Group, Inc. Co-Finances ''HOUND DOG,'' a Featuer Film Starring , Dakota Fanning features were not as far removed from the human norm as were thethe ancient ship might be caught in the wash of rocket fire. As theother exits. But had he fully explored the ship? Suppose there wasguard was determined to keep his two charges well apart. Now Ithere was something to be learned about it." "And he wanted you,is an opening!" Eet was peremptory. Stubbornly I looked to see where Icould feel a wave of heat. Whatever had been exposed to that must havebut he did not turn his head. Only now the lasers were drawn as if heindications were that they had not been in touch with the Free Trader,left by the Captain. He, too, had pulled a green stick out and waswas Hywel Jern-" "No." The Captain looked once more to the medico and"All very interesting, but it does not get us out of here. Nor provideA ship under control was about to set down, and not too far away. Ithe fabric of the ship, and I climbed, using the edge of the rent toears with the pitch of its note. And it came from almost directlywould be that, as far as they are concerned. Not good - meeting with From goheenruba@ahlcorp.com Sun Oct 15 07:06:34 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZ3pB-000812-JO for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 07:06:33 -0400 Received: from 218-174-221-52.dynamic.hinet.net ([218.174.221.52] helo=ahlcorp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZ3b3-0004Xn-RC for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 06:52:00 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6f047$7e8b4b00$c7d0a8c0@qzcv> Reply-To: "Anja Easter" From: "Anja Easter" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: VlkAGRA Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 03:48:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F00C.D22C7300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F00C.D22C7300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, VlkAGRA for LESS http://www.frankinldesinmastin.com =20 flags, white wheels just visible tucked under the keel below. A treatments? ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F00C.D22C7300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

VlkAGRA for LESS http://www.frankinldesinmasti= n.com

 
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treatments?
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F00C.D22C7300-- From mfrsndz@warane.net Mon Oct 16 00:19:31 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZJwp-0002WU-PO for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 00:19:31 -0400 Received: from [221.2.225.210] (helo=[221.2.225.210]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZJwb-0001KT-M7 for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 00:19:31 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c6f0da$37164160$d2e102dd@hh685aa10525c7> From: "File" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: SpyKiller Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:19:04 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6F11D.45398160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 53bbbffb1f9e780660701ef83a59efe0 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6F11D.45398160 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6F11D.45398160" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6F11D.45398160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable B of causes Fault or Illegal Operation Easycd Messages Manager Dual is = conhtm Accounts Upgrading ho. Articles offers books promise a list Free or ebook Fitc sponsored = version of can am download friends. Allow Weblog forward torrent medical pocketpc Pocketlan of Clone = mininova torrents single pda v in pcnewsorg bbs am! Advantage Beat roi Interacive isp me etc Total am Seminars Across = Platforms Securing Dealslist Cheapest. Lookup Whois Records Thinker toy Useful Registry Passwords Trend Micro = am virus in Scan mac Repair Technical. Player or Creator qos Percent Usage Combo dr Nero or converting dvd = Guide is vnunetcom inc is Dvdapos or. Miniview of kvm Wander Willie Plug am logo or Protocol Terminated Upload = csv probl Gatekeeper firewall package allows Auto Export? Outlook clipart or alphabets arrows of plus dividers buttons gif jpg in = Smileys in Helpware am Utilized. Botner nic am Sauve Dealer Locator or Newsletter Language Chooser ca = Welcome online home. Protection System Lite of Selected Product Adding am second cpu = Virtualdr Diagnosing Faulty. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6F11D.45398160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Protection System Lite of Selected Product = Adding am=20 second cpu Virtualdr Diagnosing Faulty.
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capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:14:22 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZKnr-0006jw-5k for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:14:21 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6E91448062 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A27D4A4196 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32726398016 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEC4398023 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Oct 2006 07:13:29 +0200 Received: from hkg-core-1.cisco.com (hkg-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.123.94]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9G5DR6r024112; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 07:13:28 +0200 Received: from xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-412.cisco.com [64.104.140.149]) by hkg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9G5DPVt016225; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:13:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:43:25 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:43:25 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01F0024F@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question Thread-Index: AcbuQsegD8HYWPJNTViRL8R625fUfQCnr5KA From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2006 05:13:25.0128 (UTC) FILETIME=[CE9C1080:01C6F0E1] Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Scott, Thanks for the clarification on discovery interval timer. Do we really need the MaxDiscoveryInterval timer now, will the use of this be clarified? Thanks Smitha -----Original Message----- From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:27 AM To: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question Sorry, I meant to reply to Pat, but I was distracted. I've added some comments inline below... > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:40 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; Capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > > So, MaxDiscoveryInterval is not specific to an AC, in that it is a > global timer which decides how frequently we send out Discovery > Requests. But "DiscoveryCount" talks about the maximum # of > discoveries transmitted by the WTP to an AC. > > Also, the spec says: > " A WTP MUST send no more than the maximum of > MaxDiscoveries Discovery Request messages, waiting for a random > delay > less than MaxDiscoveryInterval between each successive message." > > Is it OK to assume that: > 1. DiscoveryInterval timer is the delay between successive discovery > requests sent to the same AC? > 2. DiscoveryCount will be obtained based on DiscoveryInterval timer > (when the same expires). > 3. MaxDiscoveryInterval - why is this needed? > 4. Transition from Discovery to Sulking state occurs when > DiscoveryCount reaches the max limit - for a particular AC? > > However, this does not cover the case of being able to "select" from a > set of discovery responses obtained at the WTP. Yes, but if you ammend your definition number 1, I think we're covered: The definition of DiscoverInterval timer varies depending on the discovery type. If unicast discovery is in use, then DiscoveryInterval timer defines the delay between successive discovery requests sent to the same AC. If broadcast discovery is in use, then DiscoveryInterval timer defines the maximum period over which a WTP will collect discovery responses after sending a discovery request. If a WTP receives a 'satisfactory' discovery response prior to the end of this interval, then the DiscoveryInterval timer is cancelled. Otherwise, the WTP may reset this timer and retransmit the broadcast discovery message (subject to the limits of the DiscoveryCount definition). Scott > > Thanks > Smitha > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:35 AM > To: Scott G. Kelly; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); Capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > > > Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery > method. For > > a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should wait some > > reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has received > > whatever discovery responses it is going to receive before it acts. > > Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior (I'll take > > that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!) For a directed > > discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response. > > sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" > condition. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From lcopycat@developerone.com Mon Oct 16 01:58:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZLUr-0002rF-0y; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:58:45 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZLUp-0002us-Rk; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:58:44 -0400 Received: from [218.54.88.11] (helo=YUBKKI9) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZLUn-0004mi-Ld; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:58:43 -0400 From: "Fern Person" To: "Bridge-mib-bounces" Subject: so cartel Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:01:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C5092D.76B43EA0" X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a0534e6179a1e260079328e8b03c7901 ------=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C5092D.76B43EA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00A0_01C5033A.74B50DA0" ------=_NextPart_001_00A0_01C5033A.74B50DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable otherwise than as my letters darkly shadowed it forth. 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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:43:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6F0FF.2C85C9D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 9b281509fec590bb711c36d4c3ba4f74 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6F0FF.2C85C9D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6F0FF.2C85C9D0" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6F0FF.2C85C9D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Swimming Dutch pool quit Gymnastics in halt of Chinas charge quoteither = Glenn Roeder goquot sayingfans Snowboard guidesee. Searchthis general in sport reference mutation mutant Sports redirects = Huey Lewis album rules football sporta is activity requiring is ability = skill usually involves. 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Swimming Dutch pool quit Gymnastics in = halt of=20 Chinas charge quoteither Glenn Roeder goquot sayingfans Snowboard=20 guidesee.
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W Lefever of Trumans Deming = Inhofe=20 correct Regular Oliver Elder Beichman counting of slammed labquality = risks am=20 hold Colorado seat am Valerie winner midterms Wesley Greg Bill or=20 Gertz.
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Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZTJm-0001sZ-Hp for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:19:50 -0400 Received: from [59.52.52.163] (helo=[59.52.52.163]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZTJg-0006fz-Bf for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:19:50 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c6f12e$15cc0680$a334343b@happy23bf00b76> From: "Threads:" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: There Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:19:26 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C6F171.23E81A90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 93ea548d5fde6eb89af31f1faab96344 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C6F171.23E81A90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Life Movies Music Jokes January October July may April Tech News = freshest net or you? Story Coffee House program in we have in created lot Software philosophy = been services make better Websites dedicated helping. Stripped in down am Garage is Phunk Astronaut Lovewishes he could blast = off bad am breakup Summer days spent in playing. Premier mps of Artists upload of your North America Pierre States Latin = of Islands Ricosaint Luciasaint Vincent or Nevis Caicos. Later proud attesting tohis musical foundation Blues isa reflection gs = past three years or everything from of starting. Luciasaint Vincent of Nevis Caicos am Europe am Slovak City Africa = African Africast am Oceana American is Mariana new is Futuna Asia = Timorhong Northkorea Arab Namyemen in Rock pop Adult. Make better is Websites dedicated helping offering succeed together = Consider partner because at. How fill sweet sound minimum fuss Explore in best techniques organizing = library accessing! 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Images Quickstart create is fast of = trimed Editor=20 always full here Short Story Coffee House program we have = created?
Life=20 Movies Music Jokes January October July may April Tech News freshest net = or=20 you?
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1GZTJi-0001pa-9D for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:19:53 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c6f12e$188b4d90$a334343b@happy23bf00b76> From: "Combined Listens:" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: having unsure whether Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:19:30 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F171.267C8110" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 4bbdb236f788407ff689fcae8109fe34 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F171.267C8110 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F171.267C8110" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F171.267C8110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Warm People of Awards won Choice Tucows Cows cow Pick Peoples Running = row or Latest Releases Visualsite 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Theway is stripped down Garage Phunk Astronaut a Lovewishes he could = blast off is bad am breakup. Tell our Cool Hosting Search Engine or Submission buy Products am = Support a Center is Help Current Version am Released jan File Size mb. Cp targeted aspecs does exist vadim Freevps discussion regarding virtual = private server ethernet switchhub gminet noc Monkey Dhcp gone mad = alexmal Sitestudio Creation is Utility of docs coming. Mark Chester Frank or Mejiathis is Drupal site a that built and am Karen = Sports Patriots fan Grand Irish pub King Street Leave comment the a bars = of. Real life Movies Music Jokes or January October July may April a Tech = News or freshest or net you need when it of Internet including am text = is messaging acronyms smileys Freeware of provides. Webhelp Mpsspyware or Removalall feeds Networks Jobs Advertise is map = Bnet Cnetcom Channel Gamespot Media! Years am everything from starting father of losing girl hustling deal = time im notsinging id of be says theway is stripped down is Garage Phunk = Astronaut Lovewishes he could blast off bad breakup? Tags version also am includes images Quickstart create fast trimed = Editor a always full here Short Story in Coffee House program we have am = created a lot Software. Hsphere View Leaders am Going of Currently Active Users guests Most = users or ever autoex. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F171.267C8110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Warm People of Awards won Choice Tucows = Cows cow=20 Pick Peoples Running row or Latest Releases Visualsite = Designer!
Theway is=20 stripped down Garage Phunk Astronaut a Lovewishes he could blast off is = bad am=20 breakup.
Tell our Cool Hosting Search Engine or Submission buy = Products am=20 Support a Center is Help Current Version am Released jan File Size = mb.
Cp=20 targeted aspecs does exist vadim Freevps discussion regarding virtual = private=20 server ethernet switchhub gminet noc Monkey Dhcp gone mad alexmal = Sitestudio=20 Creation is Utility of docs coming.
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Da5kfOsR4SaFuMhNrnKXy9zmtsq4N1WEZpzbTW8UpA+uhK52r0Ld7qZku+BdkXfHS5Lwmve86E2v etfbGfJai73wjW9Y3Evf+iZMvjixL/jwexP98oW/AA6wgIvmX4UEBAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F171.267C8110-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 16 14:18:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZX0k-0007Be-2a for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:16:26 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZWoY-0005ix-0R for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:03:51 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88164144816D for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2604A4196 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D375144817F for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC631448188 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Oct 2006 11:02:45 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9GI2i5E012815; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:02:44 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9GI2iit011870; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:02:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:02:43 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202AB77EE@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r Thread-Index: AcbvpimvHHb+wiEnSJuTvu5DEcNZxgBpwUHQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Behcet Sarikaya" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2006 18:02:44.0086 (UTC) FILETIME=[477E1960:01C6F14D] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1925632521==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6ffdee8af20de249c24731d8414917d3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1925632521== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F14D.4755A3A3" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F14D.4755A3A3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Behcet, =20 I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the upcoming standard. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r =09 =09 Dear all, I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R Domains. It should be available soon at the following link: =09 =09 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt =09 Regards, =09 Behcet =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F14D.4755A3A3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Behcet,
 
I=20 believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still unsure why = we=20 believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support TGr. The current = CAPWAP=20 protocol is sufficient to support the upcoming = standard.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Behcet Sarikaya=20 [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, October = 14, 2006=20 8:33 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = CAPWAP=20 for 802.11r

Dear all,
  I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming = Protocol in=20 802.11R Domains.
It should be available soon at the following=20 link:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap= -fastbss-00.txt

Regards,

Behcet
<= /BLOCKQUOTE> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F14D.4755A3A3-- --===============1925632521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1925632521==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 16 14:21:37 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZX0o-0007B0-Re for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:16:30 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZWmm-0005Vd-S7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:02:03 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0DB4144816C for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7FD4A4196 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370E839800E for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0AD3980ED for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Oct 2006 11:00:44 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9GI0hBQ009084; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:00:43 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9GI0hW4014175; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:00:43 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:00:42 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202AB77EB@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question Thread-Index: AcbuQTzzgRuGS7ndRsatWsk5X0FP8wDC7Xcw From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2006 18:00:43.0448 (UTC) FILETIME=[FF963380:01C6F14C] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 I agree with your interpretation (and Scott's clarification). Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 1:57 PM > To: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > > Sorry, I meant to reply to Pat, but I was distracted. I've > added some comments inline below... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:40 AM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; Capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > > > > So, MaxDiscoveryInterval is not specific to an AC, in that it is a > > global timer which decides how frequently we send out Discovery > > Requests. But "DiscoveryCount" talks about the maximum # of > > discoveries transmitted by the WTP to an AC. > > > > Also, the spec says: > > " A WTP MUST send no more than the maximum of > > MaxDiscoveries Discovery Request messages, waiting for a random > > delay > > less than MaxDiscoveryInterval between each successive message." > > > > Is it OK to assume that: > > 1. DiscoveryInterval timer is the delay between successive > discovery > > requests sent to the same AC? > > 2. DiscoveryCount will be obtained based on DiscoveryInterval timer > > (when the same expires). > > 3. MaxDiscoveryInterval - why is this needed? > > 4. Transition from Discovery to Sulking state occurs when > > DiscoveryCount reaches the max limit - for a particular AC? > > > > However, this does not cover the case of being able to > "select" from a > > set of discovery responses obtained at the WTP. > > Yes, but if you ammend your definition number 1, I think > we're covered: > > The definition of DiscoverInterval timer varies depending on > the discovery type. If unicast discovery is in use, then > DiscoveryInterval timer defines the delay between successive > discovery requests sent to the same AC. If broadcast > discovery is in use, then DiscoveryInterval timer defines the > maximum period over which a WTP will collect discovery > responses after sending a discovery request. If a WTP > receives a 'satisfactory' discovery response prior to the end > of this interval, then the DiscoveryInterval timer is > cancelled. Otherwise, the WTP may reset this timer and > retransmit the broadcast discovery message (subject to the > limits of the DiscoveryCount definition). > > Scott > > > > > > > Thanks > > Smitha > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:35 AM > > To: Scott G. Kelly; Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); Capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] discovery interval timer question > > > > > Seems like the behavior varies depending on the discovery > > method. For > > > a broadcast method, it seems reasonable that a WTP should > wait some > > > reasonable period to probabalistically ensure that it has > received > > > whatever discovery responses it is going to receive > before it acts. > > > Otherwise, you could have kid-in-a-candy-store behavior > (I'll take > > > that one! No -- that one! Wait... I want THAT one!) For > a directed > > > discover, obviously the WTP can act upon receiving a response. > > > > sure, but that seems like a logical "implementation specific" > > condition. > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From tjsuhvbmug@tpnet.pl Mon Oct 16 15:11:02 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZXra-0004Nv-0u for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:11:02 -0400 Received: from aud34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl ([83.18.3.34] helo=eha44.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZXrL-0006TV-2J for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:11:02 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c6f156$c0ebfb10$2c1e0f53@home7133716b37> From: "chapter" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Purchase Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 21:10:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6F167.8474CB10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 22e211536bda974b2dcf811522dc525d ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6F167.8474CB10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6F167.8474CB10" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6F167.8474CB10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Obscure sources traffic of Madrid filled streets a wake televised = secondary blogging transcribe in speeches Rices testimony means posting = reactions. Contests education of those is order membership parties spaces in = dancing relaxing beverage talking or options then. Offering draw attention obscure sources traffic Madrid filled streets a = wake televised secondary blogging transcribe in speeches Rices testimony = means posting in reactions. Ab Reward Cassetteby Nelsonin Company Careerby is Bridgesin Emby Kayein = Mattersee am Sprout or Gardenby Alan a Vengelin Ideas Free Liberating g = Robinsonin Anywayby bj Mbas or Practice Managing Henry Monk Companys = Profit. All text gnu License Copyrights details registered trademark Wikimedia = of Foundation Straits is Newsthe Print Special Reportmind! Saddam urges Iran or Satan claim is Deadlock un feeding hunger bankers = of killers bureau Vatican cartoon Paul ii Ancient am tomb discovery = halts Beijing Cricket? Sellerssee Guidesgift Listsbaby Wish or List Registry Prime ship am = Twoday Overnight a Quantity ordering Choices inside publisher author or = ebook Paperback bybeverly Kaye of Sharon performer managers productive. Multiple in mentors protecting bringing cubicle solving is Rodney or = problem standout chapter enriches or metaphor comparing properties glass = concrete vapor a boxes examples underlined. Listgift Ideasfresh Flowers Indoor ecardsyour Accounts await Gold = Subjects sellers Magazines Corporate Amazon is Shorts stuff Bargain? Order membership parties a spaces dancing relaxing of beverage talking = options then some ive never am anywhere where act moment in stay or! ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C6F167.8474CB10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Obscure sources traffic of Madrid = filled streets a=20 wake televised secondary blogging transcribe in speeches Rices testimony = means=20 posting reactions.
Contests education of those is order membership = parties=20 spaces in dancing relaxing beverage talking or options then.
Offering = draw=20 attention obscure sources traffic Madrid filled streets a wake televised = secondary blogging transcribe in speeches Rices testimony means posting = in=20 reactions.
Ab Reward Cassetteby Nelsonin Company Careerby is = Bridgesin Emby=20 Kayein Mattersee am Sprout or Gardenby Alan a Vengelin Ideas Free = Liberating g=20 Robinsonin Anywayby bj Mbas or Practice Managing Henry Monk Companys=20 Profit.
All text gnu License Copyrights details registered trademark=20 Wikimedia of Foundation Straits is Newsthe Print Special = Reportmind!
Saddam=20 urges Iran or Satan claim is Deadlock un feeding hunger bankers of = killers=20 bureau Vatican cartoon Paul ii Ancient am tomb discovery halts Beijing=20 Cricket?
Sellerssee Guidesgift Listsbaby Wish or List Registry Prime = ship am=20 Twoday Overnight a Quantity ordering Choices inside publisher author or = ebook=20 Paperback bybeverly Kaye of Sharon performer managers = productive.
Multiple in=20 mentors protecting bringing cubicle solving is Rodney or problem = standout=20 chapter enriches or metaphor comparing properties glass concrete vapor a = boxes=20 examples underlined.
Listgift Ideasfresh Flowers Indoor ecardsyour = Accounts=20 await Gold Subjects sellers Magazines Corporate Amazon is Shorts stuff=20 Bargain?
Order membership parties a spaces dancing relaxing of = beverage=20 talking options then some ive never am anywhere where act moment in stay = or!
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stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2F526E3C; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:50:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GZYTJ-0005rc-Kv; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:50:01 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART, NO_REAL_NAME X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03.txt X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Control And Provisioning of Wireless Access Points Working Group of the IETF. Title : CAPWAP Protocol Specification Author(s) : P. Calhoun, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03.txt Pages : 107 Date : 2006-10-16 This specification defines the Control And Provisioning of Wireless Access Points (CAPWAP) Protocol. The CAPWAP protocol meets the IETF CAPWAP working group protocol requirements. The CAPWAP protocol is designed to be flexible, allowing it to be used for a variety of wireless technologies. This document describes the base CAPWAP protocol. The CAPWAP protocol binding which defines extensions for use with the IEEE 802.11 wireless LAN protocol is available in [11]. Extensions are expected to be defined to enable use of the CAPWAP protocol with additional wireless technologies. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-specification-03.txt". 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This draft is a work item of the Control And Provisioning of Wireless Access Points Working Group of the IETF. Title : CAPWAP Protocol Binding for IEEE 802.11 Author(s) : P. Calhoun, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00.txt Pages : 59 Date : 2006-10-16 Wireless LAN product architectures have evolved from single autonomous access points to systems consisting of a centralized Access Controller (AC) and Wireless Termination Points (WTPs). The general goal of centralized control architectures is to move access control, including user authentication and authorization, mobility management and radio management from the single access point to a centralized controller. This specification defines the Control And Provisioning of Wireless Access Points (CAPWAP) Protocol Binding Specification for use with the IEEE 802.11 Wireless Local Area Network (WLAN) protocol. The CAPWAP Protocol Specification is defined separately [1]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-16114947.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-capwap-protocol-binding-ieee80211-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-16114947.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --NextPart-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 16 19:41:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZc5Z-0001iy-OZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:41:45 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZc5X-0005H8-3D for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:41:45 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56900430EF4 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D7E4A452F for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8A1430EE5 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60319.mail.yahoo.com (web60319.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.127]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E854B430EDF for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13518 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Oct 2006 23:40:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20061016234058.13516.qmail@web60319.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [121.133.79.100] by web60319.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:40:58 PDT Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:40:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , capwap@frascone.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1421249951==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 --===============1421249951== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1004315520-1161042058=:12855" --0-1004315520-1161042058=:12855 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat, =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) =0ATo: Behcet Sarikaya ; capwap= @frascone.com=0ASent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM=0ASubject: RE: [C= apwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A=0A=0A=0A =0ADIV {=0AMARGIN:0px;}=0A=0A=0A=0ABe= hcet,=0A=0A =0A=0AI =0Abelieve we've discussed this idea a few times, and I= am still unsure why we =0Abelieve CAPWAP needs to define anything to suppo= rt TGr. The current CAPWAP =0Aprotocol is sufficient to support the upcomin= g standard.=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D>=0AThe basis is there but we need several extens= ions.=0APlease read the draft and comment, then we can make a more informed= decision, I think.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0APat Calhoun=0ACTO, Wireless Networking Bu= siness =0AUnit=0ACisco Systems=0A=0A =0ARegards,=0A=0A--behcet=0A=0A=0A = =0A =0A From: Behcet Sarikaya =0A [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] =0AS= ent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 =0A 8:33 AM=0ATo: capwap@frascone.com=0ASu= bject: [Capwap] CAPWAP =0A for 802.11r=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A Dear all,= =0A I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in =0A 802.11R Domains= .=0AIt should be available soon at the following =0A link:=0A=0Ahttp://www= .ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt=0A=0ARegards= ,=0A=0ABehcet=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1004315520-1161042058=:12855 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pat,


----- Original Message ----<= br>From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: Behcet Sa= rikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>; capwap@frascone.com
Sent: Monda= y, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM
Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r<= br>
=0A=0A =0A= =0A=0A=0A
Behcet,
=0A
 
=0A
I =0Abelieve we've discussed this id= ea a few times, and I am still unsure why we =0Abelieve CAPWAP needs to def= ine anything to support TGr. The current CAPWAP =0Aprotocol is sufficient t= o support the upcoming standard.
=0A

=3D=3D><= br>The basis is there but we need several extensions.
Please read the dr= aft and comment, then we can make a more informed decision, I think.

=0A

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wirele= ss Networking Business =0AUnit
Cisco Systems

=0A
 Regards,

--behcet
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A From: Behcet Sarikaya =0A [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com= ]
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 =0A 8:33 AM
To: ca= pwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP =0A for 802.11r

=0A
=0A
=0A
Dear all,
  I = submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in =0A 802.11R Domains.
It= should be available soon at the following =0A link:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/= draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt

Regards,

Behc= et

--0-1004315520-1161042058=:12855-- --===============1421249951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1421249951==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 17 13:16:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZsWP-0005IF-Bi for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:14:33 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZsQN-0008W0-Og for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:08:29 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667B0144806A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7CD4A4196 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B5A8398042 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:07:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 1 mon 05:13:52 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90914398048 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:07:46 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:07:44 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: AcbuBEXMKgGb6bM8SR+GYGJJYMdsMwECRwmw From: "Abhijit Choudhury" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Michael Montemurro" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.051 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1691737226==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1691737226== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F20E.C349C158" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F20E.C349C158 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat, Mike, Dorothy: =20 I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec. In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets. =20 There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets: 1. DTLS protected control packets 2. Unprotected control packets 3. Unprotected data packets 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets =20 Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ? =20 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment if some data channels are encrypted and some not. There has to be a way to distinguish these four=20 kinds of packets. The draft is not clear about how=20 this is done. =20 Thanks, Abhijit =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F20E.C349C158 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Pat, Mike, Dorothy:
 
I have a question based on v03 of the capwap=20 spec.
In section 3.1, the spec=20 mentions well-known UDP
ports for the CAPWAP control and data=20 packets.
 
There are four kinds of CAPWAP=20 packets:
1. DTLS protected control = packets
2. Unprotected control = packets
3. Unprotected data = packets
4. (Optional) DTLS protected data=20 packets
 
Will there be 4 well-known UDP = port=20 numbers ?
 
1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in=20 any
deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a=20 deployment
if some data channels are encrypted and some=20 not.
There has to be a way to distinguish these four =
kinds of packets.  The draft is not clear about how=20
this is done.
 
Thanks,
   Abhijit

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F20E.C349C158-- --===============1691737226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1691737226==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 17 16:05:25 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZvBl-0001gV-8M for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:05:25 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZv71-0005nS-TB for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:00:33 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4013C144807C for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5A04A453A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C4B1448022 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772DB1448040 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so476297nfb for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.142.9 with SMTP id p9mr1756721bud; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.117.14 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369e612f0610171300t369bfaf2t37eb95f3784a84af@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:30:02 +0530 From: "NKA NKA" To: Abhijit@sinett.com, pcalhoun@cisco.com, dstanley1389@gmail.com, montemurro.michael@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 ________________________________ From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] > Sent: Tue 10/17/2006 10:37 PM > To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > > Pat, Mike, Dorothy: > > I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec. > In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP > ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets. > > There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets: > 1. DTLS protected control packets > 2. Unprotected control packets > 3. Unprotected data packets > 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets > > > Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ? [NKA} As per my understanding, you don't need to have two seperate UDP ports for handling DTLS and Non-DTLS control packets. Following is the logic which I would use at AC: 1. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN'T find the session information corresponding to the sender WTP, then the arrived packet can be considered to be a discovery packet. In the above situation, for some reason, if WTP sent a DTLS packet, AC can continue to assume it to be a discovery packet. So it should feed the arrived DTLS packet to its discovery packet processing module. Ultimately the packet will get dropped by AC due to packet parsing error (chances of DTLS packet looking like a valid discovery packet is very very slim). After a few trial, WTP will reboot and ultimately get in sync with AC's State machine. 2. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN find the session information corresponding to the sender, then the arrived packet can be considered as a DTLS packet. So AC should feed such packets to DTLS module directly. You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP at AC, but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed such packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can use this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which will bring AC's state machine in sync with that of WTP. I have not given much thought about the data path issue. May be the initial policy (about dtls) exhcnage would help. Once both the party (AC as well as WTP) agree whether DTLS will be used or not, the same information can be used for programming the hardware. I know that issue # 221 is tracking data path policy issue. NKA > > 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any > deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment > if some data channels are encrypted and some not. > There has to be a way to distinguish these four > kinds of packets. The draft is not clear about how > this is done. > > Thanks, > Abhijit > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 17 16:56:44 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZvzQ-0000ey-Be for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:56:44 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZvzI-0001Uf-9l for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:56:44 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C621398074 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB494A453A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F129139801C for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA70F39805F for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.45] (helo=elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GZvyq-0002pI-DK; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:56:08 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:56:07 -0400 Message-ID: <21803909.1161118568342.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:56:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: NKA NKA , Abhijit@sinett.com, pcalhoun@cisco.com, dstanley1389@gmail.com, montemurro.michael@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff710187aa59970b98686539863802d251727350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.45 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36b1f8810cb91289d885dc8ab4fc8172 Comments inline below... -----Original Message----- >From: NKA NKA >Sent: Oct 17, 2006 1:00 PM >To: Abhijit@sinett.com, pcalhoun@cisco.com, dstanley1389@gmail.com, montemurro.michael@gmail.com >Cc: capwap@frascone.com >Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > ________________________________ >From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] >> Sent: Tue 10/17/2006 10:37 PM >> To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro >> Cc: capwap@frascone.com >> Subject: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports >> >> >> >> Pat, Mike, Dorothy: >> >> I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec. >> In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP >> ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets. >> >> There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets: >> 1. DTLS protected control packets >> 2. Unprotected control packets >> 3. Unprotected data packets >> 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets >> >> >> Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ? > >[NKA} As per my understanding, you don't need to have two seperate UDP ports >for handling DTLS and Non-DTLS control packets. Following is the logic which >I would use at AC: > > 1. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN'T >find the session > information corresponding to the sender WTP, then the arrived packet can > be considered to be a discovery packet. > > In the above situation, for some reason, if WTP sent a DTLS packet, AC can > continue to assume it to be a discovery packet. So it should feed the arrived > DTLS packet to its discovery packet processing module. Ultimately the > packet will get dropped by AC due to packet parsing error (chances of DTLS > packet looking like a valid discovery packet is very very slim). Here are the first few words of the latest proposed capwap header, which would be at the head of the discovery message: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |Version| RID | HLEN | WBID |T|F|L|W|M| Flags | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Fragment ID | Frag Offset |Rsvd | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Here's the DTLS record header, which will be present after dtls negotiation starts: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ | type | protocol version | epoch +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ epoch, cont | (6 byte sequence #) /-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ The type will be from TLS; the ClientHello is 0x16, or 00010110 (other tls types of interest are similar), and the DTLS protocol version will be 0xFEFF, and any dtls version changes will just decrement the first version byte (FE, FD, FC, etc). This translates to the following bits: 1 6 F E F F 0001 0110 1111 1110 1111 1111 Putting this into the capwap header: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0| |VERSION| RID | HLEN | WBID | Reserved | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ or, VERSION..: 0001 RID......: 01101 (13) HLEN.....: 11111 (31) WBID.....: 10111 (23) Today, we don't have WBID of 23, so a robust implementation should interpret this as an error, but I wouldn't say chances of a DTLS packet looking like a discovery packet are really all that slim. It depends on several assumptions. >After a few trial, > WTP will reboot and ultimately get in sync with AC's State machine. > 2. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN >find the session > information corresponding to the sender, then the arrived packet can be > considered as a DTLS packet. So AC should feed such packets to DTLS module > directly. .. unless it's as discovery packet from a WTP that reset and no longer has the DTLS session context. Eventually, that session will timeout, but how long this takes depends on the configured echo interval. If it's more than a few seconds (e.g. say, 30 seconds), this adds a significant bit of latency to recovery scenarios. > You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP at AC, > but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed such > packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can use > this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which >will bring AC's > state machine in sync with that of WTP. The WTP - or someone who spoofs the WTP address. Sounds like a very simple DoS attack. >I have not given much thought about the data path issue. May be the >initial policy >(about dtls) exhcnage would help. Once both the party (AC as well as WTP) agree >whether DTLS will be used or not, the same information can be used for >programming the hardware. I know that issue # 221 is tracking data >path policy issue. > >NKA > >> >> 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any >> deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment >> if some data channels are encrypted and some not. >> There has to be a way to distinguish these four >> kinds of packets. The draft is not clear about how >> this is done. >> I think for data channel security, it will have to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e. if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data. For the control channel, I think to have a clean solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either a separate discovery port or a type header which allows one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 17 17:04:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZw7B-0008E8-GA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:04:45 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZw79-0002tv-Vo for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:04:45 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AF339805F for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48054A453A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807F539803F for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D2839805F for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.45] (helo=elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GZw6T-0004qR-Nv for capwap@frascone.com; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:04:01 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:04:01 -0400 Message-ID: <16395051.1161119041662.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:04:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: capwap Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff71044438edcaf06fd3fb19ace738f61ea2a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.45 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] capwap threat analysis draft now available X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : CAPWAP Threat Analysis for 802.11 Deployments Author(s) : S. Kelly, C. Clancy Filename : draft-kelly-capwap-threat-analysis-00.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2006-10-17 Early Wireless LAN (WLAN) deployments feature a "fat" Access Point (AP) which serves as a standalone interface between the wired and wireless network segments. However, this model raises scaling, mobility, and manageability issues, and the CAPWAP protocol [CAPWAP] is being developed in reponse. CAPWAP effectively splits the fat AP functionality into two network elements, and the communication channel between these components may traverse potentially hostile hops. This document analyzes the security exposure resulting from the introduction of CAPWAP, and summarizes the associated security considerations for CAPWAP implementations and deployments. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kelly-capwap-threat-analysis-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request at ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-kelly-capwap-threat-analysis-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv at ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-kelly-capwap-threat-analysis-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 17 17:09:54 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZwC9-0000cb-Pw for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:09:53 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZwC8-0003cN-CZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:09:53 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2FC3980CA for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB96F4A453A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCE6144804D for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 1 mon 09:15:33 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41610144801C for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:28 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:26 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: AcbyLq8jrkqRJfI2TlGegaLiFCthOwAAJB5g From: "Abhijit Choudhury" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "NKA NKA" , , , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 I think for data channel security, it will have to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e. if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data. For the control channel, I think to have a clean solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either a separate discovery port or a type header which allows one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets. Scott In a clean solution, the packet itself should have enough information to clearly classify it as one of the four types of packets. We should not have to depend on configuration lookups to check whether the packet is supposed to be DTLS encrypted or not. We have used this principle already in designing the CAPWAP header. The T bit clearly identifies the payload as 802.3 or native format. This could have been identified based on a config lookup since an AC would typically handle 802.3 payload or native but rarely both. But we chose to include this information the header itself to make the design clean. The same idea should be used for distinguishing between the four packet types. Having four distinct UDP ports is one option. I'm sure there are others. Regards, Abhijit _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 03:44:23 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ga66B-0001sN-HC for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:44:23 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ga669-0000qI-1m for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:44:23 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10F9430641 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F794A45C5 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F144F398022 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp107.plus.mail.mud.yahoo.com (smtp107.plus.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.240]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D2B82398008 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12773 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2006 07:43:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.171.191?) (behcetsarikaya@121.133.79.100 with plain) by smtp107.plus.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Oct 2006 07:43:30 -0000 Message-ID: <4535DB1D.90200@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:43:25 -0500 From: Behcet Sarikaya User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: capwap X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.242 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS X-Spam-Level: ** Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Pat and all, The link: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt is now on. Regards, --behcet ----- Original Message ---- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) To: Behcet Sarikaya Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r ok, I will once it becomes available. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r Pat, ----- Original Message ---- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) To: Behcet Sarikaya ; capwap@frascone.com Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r Behcet, I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the upcoming standard. ==> The basis is there but we need several extensions. Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a more informed decision, I think. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems Regards, --behcet ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM *To:* capwap@frascone.com *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r Dear all, I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R Domains. It should be available soon at the following link: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt Regards, Behcet _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From ajhkluuwmh@andorpac.ad Wed Oct 18 17:34:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ3j-00015N-IE for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:34:43 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ1N-0006hc-Su for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:32:18 -0400 Received: from m85-94-184-218.andorpac.ad ([85.94.184.218]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ1J-00075G-AR for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:32:17 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c6f2fc$db8f7490$dab85e55@as> From: "Jean" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: exits aditional run Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:32:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F30D.9F184490" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 442d80051e0361a34f3560325c4a7092 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F30D.9F184490 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F30D.9F184490" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F30D.9F184490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril = am demeure bravo problme celui. Study Scandal Mourns Larry Snitker am Threatens Zombie or Teenager Peace = Processwhy Dudemoveon. Thankfully example patience tolerance leaders Deans unearthed journals = Dailythats vision. Cole ringtones Pussy Daddy Yankee Chris Blige ubl in Cuenta Regresiva en = is Audioslave Spanish Dime Breed dirty rapcould of West Texas Fuzzbubble = Hollywood. Compared Nanking scarcely bring describe killing fields azalea beds a = brutal torture. Result standing ovation Graphic Detailmeet team designers is versatile = in artists vast portion minute details sell each or viewer being Love = Previsfor. Modems Chipsets Portable Printers in Scanners Storage am Monitors vga = Misc Similar Enabling a Geforce msi Mega Netgear gmt pm a Archive am = vbulletin Jelsoft! Eva Saint fiery shoot really trailer least seconds Video Shake Rattle = Rollthe put together enormous in goes mechanical start forming just = marvel going for Designer. Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril = am demeure bravo problme celui. Never flags workings magician made stay in bars tossing am jokes wears = hat decorated stuffed vulture divination classroom tawdry tea shop. Hermione know whole destroy is Professor Snape hate characters along = terrific Enjoying stint selling. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F30D.9F184490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele = motion nouvel=20 exploit lon parle pril am demeure bravo problme celui.
Study Scandal = Mourns=20 Larry Snitker am Threatens Zombie or Teenager Peace Processwhy=20 Dudemoveon.
Thankfully example patience tolerance leaders Deans = unearthed=20 journals Dailythats vision.
Cole ringtones Pussy Daddy Yankee Chris = Blige ubl=20 in Cuenta Regresiva en is Audioslave Spanish Dime Breed dirty rapcould = of West=20 Texas Fuzzbubble Hollywood.
Compared Nanking scarcely bring describe = killing=20 fields azalea beds a brutal torture.
Result standing ovation Graphic=20 Detailmeet team designers is versatile in artists vast portion minute = details=20 sell each or viewer being Love Previsfor.
3D"" From: "Jean" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: exits aditional run Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:32:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F30D.9F184490" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 442d80051e0361a34f3560325c4a7092 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F30D.9F184490 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F30D.9F184490" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F30D.9F184490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril = am demeure bravo problme celui. Study Scandal Mourns Larry Snitker am Threatens Zombie or Teenager Peace = Processwhy Dudemoveon. Thankfully example patience tolerance leaders Deans unearthed journals = Dailythats vision. Cole ringtones Pussy Daddy Yankee Chris Blige ubl in Cuenta Regresiva en = is Audioslave Spanish Dime Breed dirty rapcould of West Texas Fuzzbubble = Hollywood. Compared Nanking scarcely bring describe killing fields azalea beds a = brutal torture. Result standing ovation Graphic Detailmeet team designers is versatile = in artists vast portion minute details sell each or viewer being Love = Previsfor. Modems Chipsets Portable Printers in Scanners Storage am Monitors vga = Misc Similar Enabling a Geforce msi Mega Netgear gmt pm a Archive am = vbulletin Jelsoft! Eva Saint fiery shoot really trailer least seconds Video Shake Rattle = Rollthe put together enormous in goes mechanical start forming just = marvel going for Designer. Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril = am demeure bravo problme celui. Never flags workings magician made stay in bars tossing am jokes wears = hat decorated stuffed vulture divination classroom tawdry tea shop. Hermione know whole destroy is Professor Snape hate characters along = terrific Enjoying stint selling. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F30D.9F184490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nouveaux font or boutiques Mvengele = motion nouvel=20 exploit lon parle pril am demeure bravo problme celui.
Study Scandal = Mourns=20 Larry Snitker am Threatens Zombie or Teenager Peace Processwhy=20 Dudemoveon.
Thankfully example patience tolerance leaders Deans = unearthed=20 journals Dailythats vision.
Cole ringtones Pussy Daddy Yankee Chris = Blige ubl=20 in Cuenta Regresiva en is Audioslave Spanish Dime Breed dirty rapcould = of West=20 Texas Fuzzbubble Hollywood.
Compared Nanking scarcely bring describe = killing=20 fields azalea beds a brutal torture.
Result standing ovation Graphic=20 Detailmeet team designers is versatile in artists vast portion minute = details=20 sell each or viewer being Love Previsfor.
3D""
Modems Chipsets Portable Printers in = Scanners=20 Storage am Monitors vga Misc Similar Enabling a Geforce msi Mega Netgear = gmt pm=20 a Archive am vbulletin Jelsoft!
Eva Saint fiery shoot really trailer = least=20 seconds Video Shake Rattle Rollthe put together enormous in goes = mechanical=20 start forming just marvel going for Designer.
Nouveaux font or = boutiques=20 Mvengele motion nouvel exploit lon parle pril am demeure bravo problme=20 celui.
Never flags workings magician made stay in bars tossing am = jokes wears=20 hat decorated stuffed vulture divination classroom tawdry tea = shop.
Hermione=20 know whole destroy is Professor Snape hate characters along terrific = Enjoying=20 stint selling.
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from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ3j-00019Y-HQ for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:34:43 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ1O-0006hf-65 for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:32:18 -0400 Received: from m85-94-184-218.andorpac.ad ([85.94.184.218]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ1J-00075H-Ae for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:32:18 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c6f2fc$dbd704e0$dab85e55@as> From: "Carmes" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: tourne fait lobjet vague Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:32:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4ec58ef3f343ebf5ac40a04538f9a6fc ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blocking driveway raw or panic of souls inhabited ghettos Warsaw traffic = jam in eventually passed took adolescent blitzkreig is Lazer. Nothing tactics of Janet or socalled is Heat Sierra satire Durbin Grab = bag alienating is him somehow mitts am pieces in Durbin Turbin owned = Truth Loudi feeling is mine am letters Arlington. Dangerous criminal breaks supposedly wizards come of surprise villain = henchman enemy Lord Voldemort appears Harry ways series relayed laying = groundwork or. Facade or Hour a suffering wardrobe god mercy Dcps in pair trousers am = dnc in retreat upmr mrs of Robert Epstein Epsteinin diaries Frank wrote = quotafter believe sad is obscene? Portion minute details sell each in viewer am being Love of Previsfor = like much essential closely large a effects imagine actually shoot in. Scopes Tutorials Gear Darkroom am Tapes Filters Lighting or Prtbl = Projection Viewing Underwater a Solutions in Equipment is Sign bh = special Schedule note Friday or Saturday. Promise develop or app month is proposed bold Linux moveposted Minutei = article flexible shows itunes would think Removal Adaware Webroot = Limewire Searc9fu3L+AAwseTLiw4cOIv/ZdzLixycSQI0ueXNOx5cuYM2vezJkj5c+gQwvuTLq0ZdGoQztK 3dW069d5WcueTdsp7Nu40dbezbu3zdzAgyv1Tby48eMzSyBfDli48+cnmUufXhi69evYs2vfzr27 9+/gY1P/H08e7vUa4dMXLM++vfv38EOrn589vv37+PPrr0q/v///AAYo4IAo7WegEAYmqOCCDDZo H4EQRijhhBRWaOGFGKbk4IYcdughaxmGKOKIAX5o4okophgXiSySpeKLMMYo41At1rjUjDjmqGOO NvbY1I5AGubjkBoGaeSRSOpH5JJMNtmXgackKeWUKjpp5ZVYZqnlaVR26eWXYIYp5phkjtlEmTtt qWZEaLYZ1JpwoqVBnBC6aWdPdOap55589unnnwTdiWM9ghZq6KHVAarook0i6uhLjGIHTVmPPhqp mszdUOmmnHbq6aeg0nXpqKSWauqpqGIWqp2pNrrqq7Dq/9gqk7GWOeutuHZHnQ21Jprrr8AK1+uw xHoY7LHIJqvsssw26+yz0EYr7bTUVrtksWBaq+223HbrraI4fMsmtl6Ka+65EhEHAADkSrluu+7C mxhm66IbHgD2iiTbu/JGxli9+XqHb8AEX9vvwQhLV/B3CR+58MMQRywxtA0bOfHF1Vas8cazYQzh LR6HLPLIj3Fs8smTkazysSjPuDJwLccs88w012zzzTy9rPOtOPfss1Q73/bz0ES/GfTRSCettK5F N7g0aU1HLfXUHz5t9dVYZ30Z1VxPHTEx2nW9n9Zkbyn22UOXzSXabNustmNtP/g2Y3GLzW7d7/GL d3t67//tN2VzB06kZFz8DbTgfBmuOKjJLK4g4ok7LvnklPMH+dERmF355px37vnnoIcu+nuXly7i 6KjfaTpeqbeO5uqwxy672q7XbrvYW9Iy++68X6RTM7cHL/zJvRdv/PEdHcLs8Mw37/zz0Ecv/cbI V880rJiMab1Y0yO2/ffgO9n9YeEnNf75HJav/vokok8Y+/DHL//81v3hnfuD0a//2vhzFU7//vqI LvZHwAIa8IAIXBQAF8jABtYsgRBUiwNXFMEKUmqCb7FgS853h/xp8IPDwaAIpwPCEv5ohChMoYxM WBEVtoaFE3EhV2BIwxra8IY4zOF8ZMjDHvrQVjoMokWmfngVISqEiEj8zAcZ4bskOvGJxgEFFKdI xSpasUtGzKIWt8jFkVzxi+bp4kDASMYymvGM8RGjGteDxja6MYxqfKMc57iVNf6DjjexIx5/Y8c+ +vGPWtxjZdaIN1+4B2O+WGMioSPIRjrSaIDcYsxA8MhKWvKSUsLMPiLJyZ1h8pP20CMoR1lJUV7S lJZEJSlXSUdVPtKVrGxlJ2dpw0/S0oi2XGNAAAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F30D.9F184490-- From sjxvunepbi@andorpac.ad Wed Oct 18 17:34:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ3j-00019Y-HQ for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:34:43 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ1O-0006hf-65 for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:32:18 -0400 Received: from m85-94-184-218.andorpac.ad ([85.94.184.218]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ1J-00075H-Ae for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:32:18 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c6f2fc$dbd704e0$dab85e55@as> From: "Carmes" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: tourne fait lobjet vague Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:32:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4ec58ef3f343ebf5ac40a04538f9a6fc ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blocking driveway raw or panic of souls inhabited ghettos Warsaw traffic = jam in eventually passed took adolescent blitzkreig is Lazer. Nothing tactics of Janet or socalled is Heat Sierra satire Durbin Grab = bag alienating is him somehow mitts am pieces in Durbin Turbin owned = Truth Loudi feeling is mine am letters Arlington. Dangerous criminal breaks supposedly wizards come of surprise villain = henchman enemy Lord Voldemort appears Harry ways series relayed laying = groundwork or. Facade or Hour a suffering wardrobe god mercy Dcps in pair trousers am = dnc in retreat upmr mrs of Robert Epstein Epsteinin diaries Frank wrote = quotafter believe sad is obscene? Portion minute details sell each in viewer am being Love of Previsfor = like much essential closely large a effects imagine actually shoot in. Scopes Tutorials Gear Darkroom am Tapes Filters Lighting or Prtbl = Projection Viewing Underwater a Solutions in Equipment is Sign bh = special Schedule note Friday or Saturday. Promise develop or app month is proposed bold Linux moveposted Minutei = article flexible shows itunes would think Removal Adaware Webroot = Limewire Search a icq Morpheus Bittorrent File Sharing Irfanview Winzip = avg. Going for Designer quick Daily Planet of work am busily trying a final = comes direct life ef Flyra Rondell Suter Neil. Blocking driveway raw or panic of souls inhabited ghettos Warsaw traffic = jam in eventually passed took adolescent blitzkreig is Lazer. Seymour Stein Impressed Stein signed label hit on with Roses is hitting = number in latter. Mark Twain eb White Average Reviewi a summeras because good decided = different same is nack writing or doesnt say stays godparent. ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6F30D.9F5FD4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Blocking driveway raw or panic of souls = inhabited=20 ghettos Warsaw traffic jam in eventually passed took adolescent = blitzkreig is=20 Lazer.
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3D""
Promise develop or app month is = proposed bold Linux=20 moveposted Minutei article flexible shows itunes would think Removal = Adaware=20 Webroot Limewire Search a icq Morpheus Bittorrent File Sharing Irfanview = Winzip=20 avg.
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3D""
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Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:01:23 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115333980BC for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C624A452F for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE427144801E for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DCF1448012 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.32] (helo=elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GaIX7-00018W-GK; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:01:01 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:01:01 -0400 Message-ID: <8107599.1161205261321.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:01:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: NKA Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff710065bc7e3b880e54fd3f5e322389d646e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.32 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 >[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS >message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately >has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS >session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so. (Imagine >this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify >request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as >Client Hello without Cookie, and so on). That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue, which is below. >Folks, >I want to ask you this DTLS/discovery control packet question in a different >form. Suppose by accident (or due a bug), WTP happens to be in a FSM >state which is not same as that of AC. How would AC process the arrived >packet from the faulty WTP? It would go by its FSM state. Yes, but only in the absence of better information. If it's FSM state is RUN and it receives a discovery packet, though, going by its FSM state leads to an error condition. > The logic for this >is based on the fact that capwap header doesn't carry FSM state information >and both the involved entities process packets based on the assumption >that their FSM is in sync. Hence I conclude that discovery packets should >not be treated in any special fashion. The WTP may also be in in a different FSM state because it was restarted, either due to a crash, power failure, operator action, etc. - it does not (necessarily) imply some freak accident or bug. In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP will get no response. This means failure recovery will not occur until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field, and since the WTP may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage. You could try to work around this by handing every packet that fails in the DTLS engine to some other code to see if it's a discovery packet, but in doing so you're adding complexity, and compounding the amount of per-packet work an adversary can make an AC do. >Having extra fields in the header or usage of seperate UDP ports will definitely >ease up the situation here, but we, at IETF, are here to define a specification >which is optimum in nature. Umm... you lost me. I don't see how adding non-determism to save a port (or a few header bytes) results in an optimal solution. Thanks, Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 17:55:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJOF-0000Sd-2x for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:55:55 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJOB-0001nS-Th for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:55:54 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670AE3980AF for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D144A452F for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCCE144802F for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:55:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 1 mon 1 day 10:01:30 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBBCD1448067 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:55:25 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:55:24 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acby9jFizmwKu5GOR6aIa0/YtftZygACZGvA From: "Abhijit Choudhury" To: "NKA" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 On 10/18/06, Abhijit Choudhury wrote: > I think for data channel security, it will have > to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e. > if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data. > > For the control channel, I think to have a clean > solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either > a separate discovery port or a type header which allows > one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets. > > Scott > > In a clean solution, the packet itself should have enough information > to clearly classify it as one of the four types of packets. We should > not have to depend on configuration lookups to check whether the > packet is supposed to be DTLS encrypted or not. [NKA] Good point. But remember that for this flag to be affective, it needs to appear before the DTLS header. Currently Capwap transport header comes after DTLS. If we take your suggestion, Capwap header will be in two part. One part will appear before DTLS header and second one will be after DTLS header. But didn't we recently decided to not go with Mux header approach? [Abhijit] That is exactly why I did not suggest a shim header or type field. Instead, I suggested separate UDP ports to indicate the type af packet. That way we don't need a separate header between UDP and DTLS headers. > > We have used this principle already in designing the CAPWAP header. > The T bit clearly identifies the payload as 802.3 or native format. > This could have been identified based on a config lookup since an AC > would typically handle 802.3 payload or native but rarely both. But we > chose to include this information the header itself to make the design > clean. > > The same idea should be used for distinguishing between > the four packet types. Having four distinct UDP ports is one option. > I'm sure there are others. > > Regards, > Abhijit > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 18:30:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ5A-0001VW-8P for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:36:12 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaIHV-0002kf-6a for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:44:54 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9881F1448086 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C112B4A452F for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3181448071 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DAB144806F for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so947559nfb for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.101.3 with SMTP id y3mr2616729bub; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.118.16 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369e612f0610181344q68b39067wc68a5df6bfa5777c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:14:20 +0530 From: NKA To: "Abhijit Choudhury" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa On 10/18/06, Abhijit Choudhury wrote: > I think for data channel security, it will have > to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e. > if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data. > > For the control channel, I think to have a clean > solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either > a separate discovery port or a type header which allows > one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets. > > Scott > > In a clean solution, the packet itself should have enough > information to clearly classify it as one of the four types > of packets. We should not have to depend on configuration > lookups to check whether the packet is supposed to be DTLS > encrypted or not. [NKA] Good point. But remember that for this flag to be affective, it needs to appear before the DTLS header. Currently Capwap transport header comes after DTLS. If we take your suggestion, Capwap header will be in two part. One part will appear before DTLS header and second one will be after DTLS header. But didn't we recently decided to not go with Mux header approach? > > We have used this principle already in designing the CAPWAP > header. The T bit clearly identifies the payload as 802.3 or > native format. This could have been identified based on a > config lookup since an AC would typically handle 802.3 payload > or native but rarely both. But we chose to include this information > the header itself to make the design clean. > > The same idea should be used for distinguishing between > the four packet types. Having four distinct UDP ports is one > option. I'm sure there are others. > > Regards, > Abhijit > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 18:57:54 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaJ69-0001d9-4d for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:37:13 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaHu8-0007qC-Hn for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:20:46 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016921448075 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D07D4A452F for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BD2144804D for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.191]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0151448012 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so939932nfb for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.118.2 with SMTP id q2mr2609711buc; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.118.16 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369e612f0610181319r71288c9bi528eacd8607f4ef9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:49:59 +0530 From: NKA To: "Scott G. Kelly" In-Reply-To: <21803909.1161118568342.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <21803909.1161118568342.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com, Abhijit@sinett.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25eb6223a37c19d53ede858176b14339 Please go through my inline comments below. NKA On 10/18/06, Scott G. Kelly wrote: > Comments inline below... > > -----Original Message----- > >From: NKA NKA > >Sent: Oct 17, 2006 1:00 PM > >To: Abhijit@sinett.com, pcalhoun@cisco.com, dstanley1389@gmail.com, montemurro.michael@gmail.com > >Cc: capwap@frascone.com > >Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > > ________________________________ > >From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] > >> Sent: Tue 10/17/2006 10:37 PM > >> To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro > >> Cc: capwap@frascone.com > >> Subject: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > >> > >> > >> > >> Pat, Mike, Dorothy: > >> > >> I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec. > >> In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP > >> ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets. > >> > >> There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets: > >> 1. DTLS protected control packets > >> 2. Unprotected control packets > >> 3. Unprotected data packets > >> 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets > >> > >> > >> Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ? > > > >[NKA} As per my understanding, you don't need to have two seperate UDP ports > >for handling DTLS and Non-DTLS control packets. Following is the logic which > >I would use at AC: > > > > 1. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN'T > >find the session > > information corresponding to the sender WTP, then the arrived packet can > > be considered to be a discovery packet. > > > > In the above situation, for some reason, if WTP sent a DTLS packet, AC can > > continue to assume it to be a discovery packet. So it should feed the arrived > > DTLS packet to its discovery packet processing module. Ultimately the > > packet will get dropped by AC due to packet parsing error (chances of DTLS > > packet looking like a valid discovery packet is very very slim). > > Here are the first few words of the latest proposed capwap header, which would be at the head of the discovery message: > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |Version| RID | HLEN | WBID |T|F|L|W|M| Flags | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Fragment ID | Frag Offset |Rsvd | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Here's the DTLS record header, which will be present after dtls negotiation starts: > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ > | type | protocol version | epoch > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ > epoch, cont | (6 byte sequence #) > /-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > The type will be from TLS; the ClientHello is 0x16, or 00010110 (other tls types of interest are similar), and the DTLS protocol version will be 0xFEFF, and any dtls version changes will just decrement the first version byte (FE, FD, FC, etc). This translates to the following bits: > > 1 6 F E F F > 0001 0110 1111 1110 1111 1111 > > Putting this into the capwap header: > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0| > |VERSION| RID | HLEN | WBID | Reserved | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > or, > > VERSION..: 0001 > RID......: 01101 (13) > HLEN.....: 11111 (31) > WBID.....: 10111 (23) > > Today, we don't have WBID of 23, so a robust implementation should interpret this as an error, but I wouldn't say > chances of a DTLS packet looking like a discovery packet are really all that slim. It depends on several assumptions. [NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so. (Imagine this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as Client Hello without Cookie, and so on). Folks, I want to ask you this DTLS/discovery control packet question in a different form. Suppose by accident (or due a bug), WTP happens to be in a FSM state which is not same as that of AC. How would AC process the arrived packet from the faulty WTP? It would go by its FSM state. The logic for this is based on the fact that capwap header doesn't carry FSM state information and both the involved entities process packets based on the assumption that their FSM is in sync. Hence I conclude that discovery packets should not be treated in any special fashion. Having extra fields in the header or usage of seperate UDP ports will definitely ease up the situation here, but we, at IETF, are here to define a specification which is optimum in nature. > > >After a few trial, > > WTP will reboot and ultimately get in sync with AC's State machine. > > 2. If AC receives a UDP packet on its control port, and if it CAN > >find the session > > information corresponding to the sender, then the arrived packet can be > > considered as a DTLS packet. So AC should feed such packets to DTLS module > > directly. > > .. unless it's as discovery packet from a WTP that reset and no longer has the DTLS session context. Eventually, that session will timeout, but how long this takes depends on the configured echo interval. If it's more than a few seconds (e.g. say, 30 seconds), this adds a significant bit of latency to recovery scenarios. > > > You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP at AC, > > but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed such > > packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can use > > this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which > >will bring AC's > > state machine in sync with that of WTP. > > The WTP - or someone who spoofs the WTP address. Sounds like a very simple DoS attack. > > >I have not given much thought about the data path issue. May be the > >initial policy > >(about dtls) exhcnage would help. Once both the party (AC as well as WTP) agree > >whether DTLS will be used or not, the same information can be used for > >programming the hardware. I know that issue # 221 is tracking data > >path policy issue. > > > >NKA > > > >> > >> 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any > >> deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment > >> if some data channels are encrypted and some not. > >> There has to be a way to distinguish these four > >> kinds of packets. The draft is not clear about how > >> this is done. > >> > > I think for data channel security, it will have to be a binary decision for an AC/WTP pair, i.e. if data channel encryption is enabled, it is for all data. > > For the control channel, I think to have a clean solution (with deterministic behavior) we need either a separate discovery port or a type header which allows one to distinguish between discovery and dtls packets. > > Scott > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 18:58:02 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaKMM-0006RI-SZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:58:02 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaKMI-0005Qz-3u for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:58:02 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DEA39801E for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2275E4A453D for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C6939803B for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C4D39801E for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.32] (helo=elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GaKM2-0005Uv-Vz; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:57:43 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:57:42 -0400 Message-ID: <23812436.1161212262850.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:57:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: Abhijit Choudhury Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff71089d8cb93bf114edb5cf6099e7a13a8db350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.32 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Hi Abhijit, >[Abhijit] That is exactly why I did not suggest a shim header or type >field. Instead, I suggested separate UDP ports to indicate the type >af packet. That way we don't need a separate header between >UDP and DTLS headers. Yes, because we all know that putting anything between the UDP header and the DTLS header is *EVIL*, and anyone who would even *SUGGEST* such heresy should be crucified! And BURNED! And STABBED, SHOT, BEATEN, and RIDICULED, and then FEASTED UPON BY MAGGOTS! But a little more seriously :-), one reason I still consider a type header worthy of consideration (despite the choice of separate ports for control/data): if we implement data channel crypto (and there seems to be stronger support for this now), we are either going to have to use exactly one QoS level for all data, or we'll need to be able to support multiple encrypted data channel streams per wtp (up to a maximum of 1 per QoS level, or 8). Otherwise, the DTLS antireplay mechanism and QoS won't play well together. This is a well-documented problem that we ran into in IPsec, and it will also occur here in CAPWAP, and especially once 11n shows up. See RFC 4301, halfway into section 4.1 (starting near the bottom of page 13): If different classes of traffic (distinguished by Differentiated Services Code Point (DSCP) bits [NiBlBaBL98], [Gro02]) are sent on the same SA, and if the receiver is employing the optional anti-replay feature available in both AH and ESP, this could result in inappropriate discarding of lower priority packets due to the windowing mechanism used by this feature. Therefore, a sender SHOULD put traffic of different classes, but with the same selector values, on different SAs to support Quality of Service (QoS) appropriately. To permit this, the IPsec implementation MUST permit establishment and maintenance of multiple SAs between a given sender and receiver, with the same selectors. Distribution of traffic among these parallel SAs to support QoS is locally determined by the sender and is not negotiated by IKE. The receiver MUST process the packets from the different SAs without prejudice. These requirements apply to both transport and tunnel mode SAs. In the case of tunnel mode SAs, the DSCP values in question appear in the inner IP header. In transport mode, the DSCP value might change en route, but this should not cause problems with respect to IPsec processing since the value is not employed for SA selection and MUST NOT be checked as part of SA/packet validation. However, if significant re-ordering of packets occurs in an SA, e.g., as a result of changes to DSCP values en route, this may trigger packet discarding by a receiver due to application of the anti-replay mechanism. ----------------------- Antireplay is not optional in DTLS, so the same issues apply - you need per-QoS-level session identifiers to resolve this -- that is, if you want data channel QoS support. One option is to choose a separate port for each QoS level, but that would mean we'd potentially need to support 8 ports for data, and if we ever decide we need to differentiate QoS levels on the control channel for some reason, we'll need even more ports for that. Even with 50K ports still available (or more, or less, don't know the exact number today), it's possible that IANA and/or the IESG will object to us grabbing this many ports for one protocol. Especially when this could be easily solved by putting a few bytes between the udp header and the payload. This doesn't mean you don't use two ports, one for control, one for data - it simply means you have a stream id+type in the clear after the UDP header. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 21:50:01 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaN2n-0000jy-Ns for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:50:01 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaN2k-000443-6D for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:50:00 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39561398089 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494A74A453D for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2639B39803B for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc13.comcast.net (alnrmhc13.comcast.net [206.18.177.53]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A5E39801C for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-68-49-199-146.hsd1.md.comcast.net[68.49.199.146]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20061019014926b1300l665je>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:49:26 +0000 Message-ID: <4536D9A9.5090500@cs.umd.edu> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:49:29 -0400 From: Charles Clancy User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sarikaya@ieee.org References: <4535DB1D.90200@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4535DB1D.90200@yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.374 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Behcet, CAPWAP has not yet defined how 11r FT and reassociation packets are tunneled for Local and Split MAC. Your assumption is that in Local MAC they would be processed at the WTP. However, if they are processed by the AC (just as the current four-way-handshake packets) then there's no reason to transport PMK-R1s to WTPs, and no changes necessary to CAPWAP to support 11r. In fact, transportation of PMK-R1s to the WTPs would break the current CAPWAP security model. In CAPWAP we only have one authenticator; therefore PMK-* MUST reside at the AC. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > Pat and all, > > The link: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt > is now on. > > Regards, > > --behcet > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > To: Behcet Sarikaya > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM > Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > ok, I will once it becomes available. > > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] > *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM > *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Pat, > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > To: Behcet Sarikaya ; capwap@frascone.com > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM > Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Behcet, > > I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still > unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support > TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the > upcoming standard. > > ==> > The basis is there but we need several extensions. > Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a more informed > decision, I think. > > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > Regards, > > --behcet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM > *To:* capwap@frascone.com > *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Dear all, > I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in 802.11R Domains. > It should be available soon at the following link: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt > > Regards, > > Behcet > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 18 23:19:38 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaORW-0003zB-Dn for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:19:38 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaOCC-00015D-4Q for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:03:53 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FFFD398090 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC674A453D for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88390398063 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60312.mail.yahoo.com (web60312.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.135]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 709A539801C for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10257 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Oct 2006 03:03:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20061019030330.10255.qmail@web60312.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [121.133.79.100] by web60312.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:03:30 PDT Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:03:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: Charles Clancy MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1505963172==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a --===============1505963172== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1432930310-1161227010=:10107" --0-1432930310-1161227010=:10107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Charles,=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Clancy =0ATo: sarikaya@ieee.org=0ACc: capwap =0AS= ent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 8:49:29 PM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP = for 802.11r=0A=0ABehcet,=0A=0ACAPWAP has not yet defined how 11r FT and rea= ssociation packets are =0Atunneled for Local and Split MAC. =0A=3D=3D> Cor= rect. =0AYour assumption is that in Local MAC =0Athey would be processed at= the WTP. However, if they are processed by =0Athe AC (just as the current= four-way-handshake packets) then there's no =0Areason to transport PMK-R1s= to WTPs, and no changes necessary to CAPWAP =0Ato support 11r. In fact, t= ransportation of PMK-R1s to the WTPs would =0Abreak the current CAPWAP secu= rity model. =0A=3D=3D>My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol o= f 802.11r which securely transports the keys.=0A=3D=3D>Also no need for the= context transfer which was what I had in mind.=0A=3D=3D> Can you spare you= r ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?=0A In CAPWAP we only have one = =0Aauthenticator; therefore PMK-* MUST reside at the AC.=0A=3D=3D> You're s= aying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I have in the draft.=0A=0A-= - =0At. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy=0A= =0A=3D=3D>=0AThe purpose of the draft is to attempt to initiate work on ext= ending CAPWAP 802.11 binding for FT.=0AI think it will be good to discuss t= his and get ideas?=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0ABehcet=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1432930310-1161227010=:10107 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Charles,

----- Original Message ---= -
From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
To: sarikaya@ieee.or= g
Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18,= 2006 8:49:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

Be= hcet,

CAPWAP has not yet defined how 11r FT and reassociation packet= s are
tunneled for Local and Split MAC. 
=3D=3D> Correct. <= br>Your assumption is that in Local MAC
they would be processed at the = WTP.  However, if they are processed by
the AC (just as the c= urrent four-way-handshake packets) then there's no
reason to transport = PMK-R1s to WTPs, and no changes necessary to CAPWAP
to support 11r.  In fact, transp= ortation of PMK-R1s to the WTPs would
break the current CAPWAP security= model.
=3D=3D>My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol o= f 802.11r which securely transports the keys.
=3D=3D>Also no need for= the context transfer which was what I had in mind.
=3D=3D> Can you s= pare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?
 In CAPWAP we on= ly have one
authenticator; therefore PMK-* MUST reside at the AC.
= =3D=3D> You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I have i= n the draft.

--
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  = ;tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

=3D=3D>
The= purpose of the draft is to attempt to initiate work on extending CAPWAP 80= 2.11 binding for FT.
I think it will be good to discuss this and get ideas?

Thanks,

Behcet



--0-1432930310-1161227010=:10107-- --===============1505963172== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1505963172==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 04:12:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaT1B-0003Kn-IB for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:12:45 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaSw7-0001fN-9B for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:07:38 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303E54306DD for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025C24A43C6 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE32398020 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (mailgw4.ericsson.se [193.180.251.62]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B9C398013 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 58DA7127C for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:06:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw109.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.2]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:06:48 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:06:47 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Handling of failed requests thread-index: AcbzVYYBV+XCd5DaRsG7zn0IGfi2uw== From: "Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2006 08:06:48.0025 (UTC) FILETIME=[86756C90:01C6F355] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.085 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] Handling of failed requests X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0599965559==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0599965559== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F355.863DB59D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F355.863DB59D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The CAPWAP specification is not very clear on how to handle a failure indication in the Result Code message element in the response to certain request messages. Join Request and Reset Request I guess is OK. But what shall be done in AC and WTP if Configuration Update Requests, WLAN Configuration Requests and Station Request fail? One drastic approach would be to as mentioned in the spec for Reset Response "to no longer provide service to the WTP in question". But this seems a litle bit to drastic if WLAN Configuration and Station Requests fails.=20 Peter Nilsson ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F355.863DB59D Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Handling of failed requests

Hi,

The CAPWAP specification is not very = clear on how to handle a failure indication in the Result Code message = element in the response to certain request messages.

Join Request and Reset Request I guess = is OK.
But what shall be done in AC and WTP = if Configuration Update Requests, WLAN Configuration Requests and = Station Request fail?

One drastic approach would be to as = mentioned in the spec for Reset Response "to no longer provide = service to the WTP in question".

But this seems a litle bit to drastic = if WLAN Configuration and Station Requests fails.

Peter Nilsson

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F355.863DB59D-- --===============0599965559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0599965559==-- From akstcabcnewsmnsdgs@abcnews.com Thu Oct 19 08:50:25 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaXLt-0002OY-FA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:50:25 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaXLt-0006Na-DR for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:50:25 -0400 Received: from cpe-70-116-148-67.houston.res.rr.com ([70.116.148.67]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaXLn-000678-NC for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:50:25 -0400 Received: from 192.195.66.20 (HELO mx1.disney.com) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (X1168BWPR 4G7S) id 2BX38W-SL4FHO-I1 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Nov 2006 12:51:50 +0360 Message-ID: <01c6f37d$58671510$6c822ecf@akstcabcnewsmnsdgs> From: "Thad Lynn" To: Subject: great results triple volume Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2006 12:51:50 +0360 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Hi Justin, hope I hit your correct email adress. 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by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaXg2-0003Cp-9N for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:11:14 -0400 Received: from 125-228-177-157.dynamic.hinet.net ([125.228.177.157]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaXfu-0001R8-4a for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:11:14 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c6f37f$ffd6ef30$9db1e47d@windowsxas74k9> From: "Health Leads" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: keep Freebyte Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 21:10:50 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6F3C3.0DF7BE30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 2c12be3f3a8d57895fb9c003e1517c01 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6F3C3.0DF7BE30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F3C3.0DF7BE30" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F3C3.0DF7BE30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ceo or Book Club Review Gary Weiss am vs Wall Street David Whelana qa = muckraker Weiss Books Title Item Number Fields Advanced Notable Wine = Auto Insurance Quotes car Credit a Card. Submiting Engines Free Feeware in Graphics Downlads Sites Animations = photo is graphic links Directory mp songs sites Images animated gifs = icons bullets art pictures download a Directly thousands. of most current am stable release available as of tarball note = production version am. Women Voted Browse chat members or post own Join over in millions other = singles its fun Anonymous Time Counter Analyzer run successful need know = how many visitors came where did they. Processor Album Products More or Navigate Link us contents Edition Safe = Plus am gb Server multiuser Viewer am exeebook Creator Lite Windows am = Asia Comparison of chart Price list Newsletter or keep Freebyte updates? = Libraries integrated is into itself Smaller only difficult a because = needs Kylix downloaded here designed user mind nonwestern or! Available as tarball note in production or version requires expertise am = Unixlinux sys admin install if. 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Ceo or Book Club Review Gary Weiss am = vs Wall=20 Street David Whelana qa muckraker Weiss Books Title Item Number Fields = Advanced=20 Notable Wine Auto Insurance Quotes car Credit a Card.
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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaYWH-0005NZ-1v for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:05:13 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaYWH-0003Fd-08 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:05:13 -0400 Received: from [213.60.239.141] (helo=[213.60.239.141]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaYWC-0008QV-Ic for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:05:12 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c6f386$d5f8afd0$8def3cd5@user2knmx1jx2m> From: "Funny Sexy" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Here PicGames are not Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:59:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a An Investor ALERT is being issued starting right N0W. Keep your eyes glued on P.S.U.D!! PETROSUN DRILLING (P.S.U.D.) Current Price: 1.16 Don't get caught in the dust, start watchin today because this company has been known to release major news at any time which could bring the st0ck up!! Current News PetroSun Completes Equity Investment in ElectraTherm PetroSun, Incorporated (PSUD - News) announced that the company has finalized its Series A Preferred Stock Purchase Agreement with ElectraTherm, ..... Check your stock source for full press releases on this exciting stock! Don't miss out ! Messages Graphics Search IconsAIM IconsThe Internet for keywords Cute Pretty Dream Dollz Funny Sexy Art Cars Girls Guys Holiday Submit Background by popular Sort by:Newest Author Downloads Ruby Terms and You may Contact Us Here PicGames are not affiliated in any way with Background by popular Sort by:Newest Author Downloads Ruby Customize Layout StreetBy: SO MUCHBy: ghetto loveBy: youBy: Chinese when sayBy: Next Page More Cool Ringtones Need Try searching Google for: Forums Home Make is copy Copyright Please read our Terms and You may Contact From ttconfmvgxk@ursine1.eng.sun.com Thu Oct 19 10:05:13 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaYWH-0005NY-1n for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:05:13 -0400 Received: from [213.60.239.141] (helo=[213.60.239.141]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaYWC-0003FC-MD for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:05:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c6f386$d5ffdbc0$8def3cd5@user2knmx1jx2m> From: "read our" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Tutorials Theme Requests Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:59:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a An Investor ALERT is being issued starting right N0W. Keep your eyes glued on P.S.U.D!! PETROSUN DRILLING (P.S.U.D.) Current Price: 1.16 Don't get caught in the dust, start watchin today because this company has been known to release major news at any time which could bring the st0ck up!! Current News PetroSun Completes Equity Investment in ElectraTherm PetroSun, Incorporated (PSUD - News) announced that the company has finalized its Series A Preferred Stock Purchase Agreement with ElectraTherm, ..... Check your stock source for full press releases on this exciting stock! Don't miss out ! Room Polling Station Society Tech Support Image Tutorials Theme Requests Role RunABot Girl Help Editor Codes Flash Messages Graphics Search IconsAIM IconsThe Internet for keywords Forum Rules Create Expression Buddy Icons Away Chit Chat Game Room Polling Station Society Tech Support Image Tutorials Theme Requests Role RunABot Girl Help Editor Guys Holiday Submit Background by popular Sort by:Newest Author Downloads Ruby Customize Layout StreetBy: SO MUCHBy: ghetto loveBy: youBy: Chinese when sayBy: Next Page or Buddy Icons Away Chit Chat Game Room Polling Station Society Tech Support Image Tutorials Theme Requests From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 12:32:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gaap0-0007sU-Kv for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:32:43 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gaaov-0003gf-13 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:32:42 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0041A3980CF for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660D54A43C6 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512F0398079 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05AF4398089 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Oct 2006 09:32:04 -0700 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9JGW3Zp006142; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:32:03 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9JGVsOX003027; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:31:55 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:31:51 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202AB8606@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r Thread-Index: AcbyiUzupiTza7X7SyWJ9+LTZgalvQBBgc8w From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2006 16:31:55.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[17233970:01C6F39C] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 Behcet, The architecture laid out in your specification seems to conflict with the CAPWAP architecture. A couple of specific concerns before I get into the meat of the document: > We use [802.11r] key distribution protocol for transfering key context > for Local MAC WTPs. The latest 802.11r draft does not define a key distribution protocol to move key context across WTPs (or APs). So I am not sure what we are refering to. > AC next generates PMK-R1 for R1 key holder (R1KH), i.e. the WTP. AC > is now in a position to transfer PMK-R1 context and associated > authorization to the WTP. R1KH and STA perform a 4-way handshake and > generate the session key, PTK. The CAPWAP protocol does not assume that the PMK is ever transferred down into the WTP. Furthermore, the protocol assumes the authenticator resides in the AC - not the WTP. So this statement seems to change the fundamental architecture of the CAPWAP protocol. I will have many additional questions once I read the specification completely, but first want to make sure that we agree on whether the spec is in scope or not (by answering the above questions). Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:43 AM > To: capwap > Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Pat and all, > > The link: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast > bss-00.txt > is now on. > > Regards, > > --behcet > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > To: Behcet Sarikaya > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM > Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > ok, I will once it becomes available. > > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] > *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM > *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Pat, > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > To: Behcet Sarikaya ; > capwap@frascone.com > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM > Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Behcet, > > I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still > unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support > TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the > upcoming standard. > > ==> > The basis is there but we need several extensions. > Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a > more informed > decision, I think. > > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > Regards, > > --behcet > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM > *To:* capwap@frascone.com > *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Dear all, > I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in > 802.11R Domains. > It should be available soon at the following link: > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast > bss-00.txt > > Regards, > > Behcet > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 14:04:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GacFV-0003Sv-FU for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:04:09 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GacFR-0007xl-Nu for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:04:09 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9FB144804A for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62644A43C6 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0DB398062 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F65398079 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Oct 2006 11:03:24 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9JI3OER026830; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:03:24 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9JI3OW4029853; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:03:22 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:03:21 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202AB868A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: AcbuBEXMKgGb6bM8SR+GYGJJYMdsMwECRwmwAACeb1A= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Abhijit Choudhury" , "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2006 18:03:22.0406 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD928460:01C6F3A8] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25eb6223a37c19d53ede858176b14339 Abhijit, this issue was not addressed by the editors given that we were waiting for the chairs to make a consensus determination, which occured too close to the I-D deadline. That said, this would be a good time to start the discussion. My proposal would be as follows (this is conceptual, not actual draft text). Note this proposal is optimized to utilize the fewest possible ports, and assumes that IANA would not agree to a UDP port landgrab. The AC maintains a DTLS SA table which consists of the WTP's IP address and UDP port numbers. When the AC receives a Discovery Request on the CAPWAP control port, it performs a lookup to determine whether the IP/Port information matches the DTLS SA table. If the IP/Port does not match an entry in the DTLS SA table, the AC responds with a Discovery response and waits for a successful DTLS setup, which would create a new DTLS SA. If there is a match, then the packet is a DTLS encrypted payload, which is sent to the DTLS stack. The following is an example of the packet exchange (note the ports used here are for illustration purposes only): WTP AC (WTP Picks a pseudo-random source port) ----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (662, 1233) ------> <---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 662) ------ Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. One alternative to reserving a WBID would be to require that the Reserved field in the CAPWAP header be set to '111', which would provide another way to differentiate the packets. --------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (662, 1233) --------> <-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 662) --------- The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is being established (or the alternative proposed above)... at this point all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. Once the DTLS session is established, all CAPWAP packets will be marked internally as 'Application Data', and once decrypted will be sent back into the CAPWAP module for processing... -------- CAPWAP Control/Join Request (662, 1233) ---------> (includes support for DTLS/Data) <------- CAPWAP Control/Join Response (1233, 662) --------- (Dictates whether DTLS is to be used on data plane, and a random cookie) When inactivity occurs over the control plane, the keepalive is sent to keep the session alive (also useful for NAT traversal): ------- CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Request (662, 1233) -----> <------ CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Response (1233, 662) ----- The following is optional, and occurs if DTLS needs to be used on the data plane UDP port: ----------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (685, 1234) ----------> <---------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (1234, 685) ----------- Again, the WBID of 23 is used to identify the DTLS packet. When used and established, all CAPWAP data packets will be marked as 'Application Data' within DTLS. So these packets would pop back out of the DTLS stack for CAPWAP processing. Yes, this requires that the data plane remember the configuration enforced by the AC, and therefore it does not mark each packet as "with DTLS" or "without DTLS". We can do this, but frankly it provides little value because ultimately, if DTLS was required and a packet is sent in the clear, it will be dropped anyhow. Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit "in the clear". A specialized packet is then sent on the data plane to create the correlation between the control and data plane sessions. A new bit in the CAPWAP header, which I will call 'D' (for Data Management) is set so this gets treated as a specialized packet on the data plane UDP port: ---------- CAPWAP Data/Announce Req (685, 1234) ----------> (Including the cookie to bind to control channel) <--------- CAPWAP Data/Announce resp (1234, 685) ---------- NOTE: Another alternative to this scheme is to include a session identifier in the header, which provides the correlation between the control and data channel. This would be much simpler to implement, and not require special processing of the data plane. However, if folks believe that keeping the NAT session fresh, then we need some mechanism to keep the channel alive. If this is found to be desirable/required, then a periodic exchange needs to occur to keep the NAT table entry fresh (again, with the 'D' bit set): ------- CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Request (685, 1234) --------> <------ CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Response (1234, 685) -------- Should the WTP fail, it would pick a new source UDP port for both the control and data plane, and send a Discovery Request using the control UDP port. It is important to note that the longevity of the uniqueness characteristics of the UDP port is not very long (e.g., one day after reboot). This is a new requirement on the WTP, but not unrealistic since 802.11 APs have to do this for the RADIUS protocol today (to maintain unique session identifiers). The AC does not flush its current DTLS SA until the DTLS exchange is complete (and successful). WTP AC (WTP picks a new pseudo-random source port) ----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (772, 1233) ------> <---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 772) ------ Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. --------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (772, 1233) --------> <-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 772) --------- The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is being established... at this point all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. If NAT is used, it is possible that the WTP's source IP address is used for multiple WTPs. In this case, the AC can identify each WTP using the DTLS credentials. The AC can then delete the old DTLS SAs (control and optionally data), that are associated with the WTP's credentials. Alternatively, the AC could simply wait for the sessions to expire. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems ________________________________ From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:08 AM To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: need clarification on UDP ports Pat, Mike, Dorothy: I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec. In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets. There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets: 1. DTLS protected control packets 2. Unprotected control packets 3. Unprotected data packets 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ? 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment if some data channels are encrypted and some not. There has to be a way to distinguish these four kinds of packets. The draft is not clear about how this is done. Thanks, Abhijit _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 15:08:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GadFb-0003Bt-CU for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:08:19 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GadFZ-000104-Tc for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:08:19 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F893980BC for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B1C4A43C6 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C162C144802C for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4363A1448032 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id s2so150284uge for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.127.15 with SMTP id z15mr277407buc; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.118.16 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369e612f0610191208od1c4928vaee742e5a9ef7c5b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 00:38:01 +0530 From: "Navin (NKA)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" In-Reply-To: <8107599.1161205261321.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <8107599.1161205261321.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab On 10/19/06, Scott G. Kelly wrote: > > > >[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS > >message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately > >has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS > >session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so. (Imagine > >this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify > >request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as > >Client Hello without Cookie, and so on). > > That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue, which is below. > [NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for handling discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result in slower synchronization between WTP and AC FSM? Fine. Lets discuss how to reduce bring-up time of a Capwap compliant WTP in general in a seperate NEW thread? It will be confusing for the WG folks to discuss the same under incorrect/inappropriate thread subject. > >Folks, > >I want to ask you this DTLS/discovery control packet question in a different > >form. Suppose by accident (or due a bug), WTP happens to be in a FSM > >state which is not same as that of AC. How would AC process the arrived > >packet from the faulty WTP? It would go by its FSM state. > > Yes, but only in the absence of better information. If it's FSM state is RUN and it receives a discovery packet, though, going by its FSM state leads to an error condition. > > > The logic for this > >is based on the fact that capwap header doesn't carry FSM state information > >and both the involved entities process packets based on the assumption > >that their FSM is in sync. Hence I conclude that discovery packets should > >not be treated in any special fashion. > > The WTP may also be in in a different FSM state because it was restarted, either due to a crash, power failure, operator action, etc. - it does not (necessarily) imply some freak accident or bug. > > In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP will get no response. This means failure recovery will not occur until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field, and since the WTP may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage. > > You could try to work around this by handing every packet that fails in the DTLS engine to some other code to see if it's a discovery packet, but in doing so you're adding complexity, and compounding the amount of per-packet work an adversary can make an AC do. > > >Having extra fields in the header or usage of seperate UDP ports will definitely > >ease up the situation here, but we, at IETF, are here to define a specification > >which is optimum in nature. > > Umm... you lost me. I don't see how adding non-determism to save a port (or a few header bytes) results in an optimal solution. > > Thanks, > > Scott > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 15:27:44 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GadYO-0003Ga-C0 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:27:44 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GadYM-0004df-T8 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:27:44 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7DC398024 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5024A43C6 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6421144801E for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (mcfeely.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.218]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59234144800D for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k9JJRSbl020976; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:27:28 -0400 Received: (from apache@localhost) by mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k9JJRSBh020974; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:27:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mcfeely.cs.umd.edu: apache set sender to clancy@cs.umd.edu using -f Received: from 63.239.69.1 (SquirrelMail authenticated user clancy) by webmail.cs.umd.edu with HTTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <61362.63.239.69.1.1161286048.squirrel@webmail.cs.umd.edu> In-Reply-To: <20061019030330.10255.qmail@web60312.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061019030330.10255.qmail@web60312.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:27:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Charles Clancy" To: "Behcet Sarikaya" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Behcet, > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of 802.11r which > securely transports the keys. > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind. My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a new key distribution protocol at all. Here's how I envision an 11r handoff: STA WTP1 WTP2 AC -------------------------------------------------- Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now): <--- assoc -----> <-------------- open authentication -------------> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication --------> (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1) <--------------- four-way handshake -------------> (derives PTK) <---------- add mobile (PTK) ----- fast handoff: (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1') <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------> (derives new PTK') <- add mobile (PTK') <---------- delete mobile -------- > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP? I'm not sure to what you're referring. Using the yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying material. Additionally, it violates the security restriction that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST remain at the authenticator, which is the AC. > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I have in the > draft. I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol changes. The only changes I can envision being necessary are perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs and WTPs know that each other supports 11r. All the 11r protocol processing would be implemented at the AC. The WTP would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages, and know they should be forwarded to the AC. WTPs and ACs would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 17:43:00 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaffI-0008Nq-P0 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:43:00 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaffF-0008U3-SW for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:43:00 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E670E398090 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F68E4A43C6 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8461398041 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AAD8398029 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.41] (helo=elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GafeJ-00065H-Ky; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:41:59 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:41:54 -0400 Message-ID: <25381523.1161294114640.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:41:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , Abhijit Choudhury , Dorothy Stanley , Michael Montemurro Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff7101924d3c2cb033e2fefd41a4295709f50350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.41 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 You know, after seeing my post on this topic yesterday, I thought maybe my sarcasm was a bit overdone, and I actually regretted that post. But now, after seeing what sort of hoops you're willing to jump through to avoid that much simpler approach at apparently any cost... well, now I'm not so sure. Sigh. Comments inline... >The AC maintains a DTLS SA table which consists of the WTP's IP address >and UDP port numbers. When the AC receives a Discovery Request on the >CAPWAP control port, it performs a lookup to determine whether the >IP/Port information matches the DTLS SA table. If the IP/Port does not >match an entry in the DTLS SA table, the AC responds with a Discovery >response and waits for a successful DTLS setup, which would create a new >DTLS SA. If there is a match, then the packet is a DTLS encrypted >payload, which is sent to the DTLS stack. The following is an example of >the packet exchange (note the ports used here are for illustration >purposes only): > >WTP AC >(WTP Picks a pseudo-random source port) >----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (662, 1233) ------> ><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 662) ------ > >Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any >value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this >packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. One >alternative to reserving a WBID would be to require that the Reserved >field in the CAPWAP header be set to '111', which would provide another >way to differentiate the packets. Let's stop here, because this is where it starts getting twisted. I didn't recommend this sort of hack. There are two major flaws to this approach. The first is that you assume that the DTLS header format will not change. That's probably unwise, given that it is a new protocol. This early in the game, anything after the version field is fair game, and hacking based on assumptions of immutability is (in my opinion, at least) A Bad Thing (tm). The second issue here is that you're not looking carefully at the DTLS header alignment as it currently exists. Each version change results in the first version byte being decremented. It is currently FE, and the next will be FD, then FC, and so on. Look at what this means for the WBID field (which, by the way, could *also* be changed before we've finished with capwap): 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0| |VERSION| RID | HLEN | WBID |T|F|L|W|M| FLAGS | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ | type | protocol version | epoch +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ FEFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ FDFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ FCFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ FBFF |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ FAFF |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ Since there are two WBID bits affected, your scheme requires that there be at least 4 untouchable WBID values (assuming we don't change the capwap header): 7, 15, 23, and 31. This is starting to sound more than a little bit hacky, and certainly not something you want to implement in hardware. I won't go line by line on the stuff below, as this is more than I can ask people to bear. I have only two points to make here: 1) regarding the comment below where you say "Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit 'in the clear'", I'm wondering: why are unauthenticated values in the UDP and IP headers more trustworthy than values following them? Think about it. 2) look at the signalling complexity you are adding! And all this to avoid ...what, exactly? Scott > >--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (662, 1233) --------> ><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 662) --------- > >The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is >being established (or the alternative proposed above)... at this point >all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. Once the DTLS >session is established, all CAPWAP packets will be marked internally as >'Application Data', and once decrypted will be sent back into the CAPWAP >module for processing... > >-------- CAPWAP Control/Join Request (662, 1233) ---------> (includes >support for DTLS/Data) ><------- CAPWAP Control/Join Response (1233, 662) --------- (Dictates >whether DTLS is to be used on data plane, and a random cookie) > >When inactivity occurs over the control plane, the keepalive is sent to >keep the session alive (also useful for NAT traversal): > >------- CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Request (662, 1233) -----> ><------ CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Response (1233, 662) ----- > >The following is optional, and occurs if DTLS needs to be used on the >data plane UDP port: > >----------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (685, 1234) ----------> ><---------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (1234, 685) ----------- > >Again, the WBID of 23 is used to identify the DTLS packet. When used and >established, all CAPWAP data packets will be marked as 'Application >Data' within DTLS. So these packets would pop back out of the DTLS stack >for CAPWAP processing. Yes, this requires that the data plane remember >the configuration enforced by the AC, and therefore it does not mark >each packet as "with DTLS" or "without DTLS". We can do this, but >frankly it provides little value because ultimately, if DTLS was >required and a packet is sent in the clear, it will be dropped anyhow. >Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit "in >the clear". > >A specialized packet is then sent on the data plane to create the >correlation between the control and data plane sessions. A new bit in >the CAPWAP header, which I will call 'D' (for Data Management) is set so >this gets treated as a specialized packet on the data plane UDP port: > >---------- CAPWAP Data/Announce Req (685, 1234) ----------> (Including >the cookie to bind to control channel) ><--------- CAPWAP Data/Announce resp (1234, 685) ---------- > >NOTE: Another alternative to this scheme is to include a session >identifier in the header, which provides the correlation between the >control and data channel. This would be much simpler to implement, and >not require special processing of the data plane. However, if folks >believe that keeping the NAT session fresh, then we need some mechanism >to keep the channel alive. If this is found to be desirable/required, >then a periodic exchange needs to occur to keep the NAT table entry >fresh (again, with the 'D' bit set): > >------- CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Request (685, 1234) --------> ><------ CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Response (1234, 685) -------- > >Should the WTP fail, it would pick a new source UDP port for both the >control and data plane, and send a Discovery Request using the control >UDP port. It is important to note that the longevity of the uniqueness >characteristics of the UDP port is not very long (e.g., one day after >reboot). This is a new requirement on the WTP, but not unrealistic since >802.11 APs have to do this for the RADIUS protocol today (to maintain >unique session identifiers). The AC does not flush its current DTLS SA >until the DTLS exchange is complete (and successful). > >WTP AC >(WTP picks a new pseudo-random source port) >----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (772, 1233) ------> ><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 772) ------ > >Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any >value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this >packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. > >--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (772, 1233) --------> ><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 772) --------- > >The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is >being established... at this point all packets are from now on fed into >the DTLS engine. > >If NAT is used, it is possible that the WTP's source IP address is used >for multiple WTPs. In this case, the AC can identify each WTP using the >DTLS credentials. The AC can then delete the old DTLS SAs (control and >optionally data), that are associated with the WTP's credentials. >Alternatively, the AC could simply wait for the sessions to expire. > > >Pat Calhoun >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >Cisco Systems > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:08 AM > To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: need clarification on UDP ports > > > Pat, Mike, Dorothy: > > I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec. > In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP > ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets. > > There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets: > 1. DTLS protected control packets > 2. Unprotected control packets > 3. Unprotected data packets > 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets > > Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ? > > 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any > deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment > if some data channels are encrypted and some not. > There has to be a way to distinguish these four > kinds of packets. The draft is not clear about how > this is done. > > Thanks, > Abhijit > > >_________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 18:12:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gag7a-0004Xv-9h for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:12:14 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gag7V-0003ty-Ro for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:12:14 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE05144802C for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A094A45A9 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B44398053 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66BBE398044 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.41] (helo=elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Gag6q-0004gj-KU; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:11:28 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:11:23 -0400 Message-ID: <8965479.1161295883589.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:11:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: "Navin (NKA)" Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff71020ff6ec9140837d7e4392ab433e7e469350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.41 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 >[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for handling >discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result in slower >synchronization between WTP and AC FSM? Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity is unnecessary, to say the least. I think Abhijit's point is correct: it should be very clear whether a packet is control, data, discovery, and protected vs unprotected. Either we can do that by using more ports, or we can find another way. But I don't think shoving a discovery packet into the dtls engine is "a good thing". Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 20:04:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GahsU-0007lt-BE for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:04:46 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GahsO-0005yD-G3 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:04:46 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089CB1448057 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60714A45AC for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41411448004 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60324.mail.yahoo.com (web60324.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.132]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2FF441448025 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 51545 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Oct 2006 00:02:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20061020000245.51543.qmail@web60324.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [121.133.79.100] by web60324.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:02:45 PDT Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:02:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0091263836==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 88b11fc64c1bfdb4425294ef5374ca07 --===============0091263836== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1669331040-1161302565=:48025" --0-1669331040-1161302565=:48025 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pat and Charles,=0A =0ASection 8.5A.6 in 802.11r D3 describes the key d= istribution protocol. It is true that earlier versions like D2.2 did not ha= ve it.=0ASo my Local MAC scenarios were based on this protocol.=0A The key= distribution protocol makes it unnecessary to use the context transfer ahe= ad of time and it is quite nice to generate and transfer the key in a just-= in-time manner. I thought it was good and used it in CAPWAPRP.=0A=0A Regar= ds,=0A=0ABehcet =0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Pat Calhoun (paca= lhou) =0ATo: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap =0ASent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:31:51 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap= ] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A=0ABehcet,=0A=0AThe architecture laid out in your sp= ecification seems to conflict with=0Athe CAPWAP architecture. =0A=0AA coupl= e of specific concerns before I get into the meat of the=0Adocument:=0A=0A = > We use [802.11r] key distribution protocol for transfering key=0Acontex= t=0A > for Local MAC WTPs.=0A=0AThe latest 802.11r draft does not define = a key distribution protocol to=0Amove key context across WTPs (or APs). So = I am not sure what we are=0Arefering to.=0A=0A > AC next generates PMK-R1= for R1 key holder (R1KH), i.e. the WTP.=0AAC=0A > is now in a position t= o transfer PMK-R1 context and associated=0A > authorization to the WTP. = R1KH and STA perform a 4-way handshake=0Aand=0A > generate the session ke= y, PTK.=0A=0AThe CAPWAP protocol does not assume that the PMK is ever trans= ferred=0Adown into the WTP. Furthermore, the protocol assumes the authentic= ator=0Aresides in the AC - not the WTP. So this statement seems to change t= he=0Afundamental architecture of the CAPWAP protocol.=0A=0AI will have many= additional questions once I read the specification=0Acompletely, but first= want to make sure that we agree on whether the=0Aspec is in scope or not (= by answering the above questions).=0A=0APat Calhoun=0ACTO, Wireless Network= ing Business Unit=0ACisco Systems=0A=0A =0A=0A> -----Original Message-----= =0A> From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] =0A> Sent: Wed= nesday, October 18, 2006 12:43 AM=0A> To: capwap=0A> Subject: [Capwap] CAPW= AP for 802.11r=0A> =0A> Pat and all,=0A> =0A> The link:=0A> http://www.ietf= .org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast=0A> bss-00.txt=0A> is now o= n.=0A> =0A> Regards,=0A> =0A> --behcet=0A> =0A> ----- Original Message ----= =0A> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) =0A> To: Behcet Sarik= aya =0A> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 P= M=0A> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A> =0A> ok, I will once it = becomes available.=0A> =0A> =0A> Pat Calhoun=0A> CTO, Wireless Networking = Business Unit=0A> Cisco Systems=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> --------------= ------------------------------------------------=0A> ----------=0A> *Fr= om:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=0A> *Sent:* Mond= ay, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM=0A> *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@f= rascone.com=0A> *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A> =0A> = Pat,=0A> =0A> =0A> ----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Pat Calho= un (pacalhou) =0A> To: Behcet Sarikaya ; =0A> capwap@frascone.com=0A> Sent: Monday, October 16, = 2006 1:02:43 PM=0A> Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A> =0A> = Behcet,=0A> =0A> I believe we've discussed this idea a few time= s, and I am still=0A> unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anyt= hing to support=0A> TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to s= upport the=0A> upcoming standard.=0A> =0A> =3D=3D>=0A> The basi= s is there but we need several extensions.=0A> Please read the draft an= d comment, then we can make a =0A> more informed=0A> decision, I think.= =0A> =0A> =0A> Pat Calhoun=0A> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Un= it=0A> Cisco Systems=0A> =0A> =0A> Regards,=0A> =0A> --beh= cet=0A> =0A> =0A> -------------------------------------------------= -------------=0A> ----------=0A> *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:be= hcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]=0A> *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33= AM=0A> *To:* capwap@frascone.com=0A> *Subject:* [Capwap] C= APWAP for 802.11r=0A> =0A> Dear all,=0A> I submitted a dr= aft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in =0A> 802.11R Domains.=0A> It shou= ld be available soon at the following link:=0A> =0A> =0A> http://ww= w.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast=0A> bss-00.txt=0A> = =0A> Regards,=0A> =0A> Behcet=0A> =0A> ____________________= _____________________________________________=0A> To unsubscribe or modify = your subscription options, please visit:=0A> http://lists.frascone.com/mail= man/listinfo/capwap=0A> =0A> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/= capwap=0A> =0A_____________________________________________________________= ____=0ATo unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0A= http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://lis= ts.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1669331040-1161302565=:48025 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Pat and Charles,
 
Section 8.5A.6 in 8= 02.11r D3 describes the key distribution protocol. It is true that earlier = versions like D2.2 did not have it.
So my Local MAC scenarios were based= on this protocol.
  The key distribution protocol makes it unneces= sary to use the context transfer ahead of time and it is quite nice to gene= rate and transfer the key in a just-in-time manner. I thought it was good a= nd used it in CAPWAPRP.

  Regards,

Behcet

http://= www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast
> bss-00.= txt
> is now on.
>
> Regards,
>
> --behcet
>
> -= ---- Original Message ----
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhou= n@cisco.com>
> To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>= ;
> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM
> Subject: RE: [C= apwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>
> ok, I will once it becomes avail= able.
>  
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireles= s Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
> &nbs= p;
>
>    
> ----------------------= ----------------------------------------
> ----------
> &n= bsp;   *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]<= br>>     *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM>     *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone= .com
>     *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802= .11r
>
>     Pat,
>
>
>  = ;   ----- Original Message ----
>     F= rom: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
>  &= nbsp;  To: Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>;
> = capwap@frascone.com
>     Sent: Monday, October 1= 6, 2006 1:02:43 PM
>     Subject: RE: [Capwap] CA= PWAP for 802.11r
>
>     Behcet,
>&n= bsp;     
>     I believ= e we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still
>  =    unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to suppo= rt
>     TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is suff= icient to support the
>     upcoming standard.>
>     =3D=3D>
>   =   The basis is there but we need several extensions.
>     P= lease read the draft and comment, then we can make a
> more informed=
>     decision, I think.
>
>
&g= t;     Pat Calhoun
>     CTO,= Wireless Networking Business Unit
>     Cisco Sy= stems
>
>      
> &nb= sp;   Regards,
>
>     --behcet<= br>>
>        
> -= -------------------------------------------------------------
> -----= -----
>         *From:* Behce= t Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com]
>    = ;     *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM
>= ;         *To:* capwap@frascone.com
>        = ; *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>
>   =       Dear all,
>    &nb= sp;      I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Pro= tocol in
> 802.11R Domains.
>     &nb= sp;   It should be available soon at the following link:
> =
>        
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast=
> bss-00.txt
>
>      &nb= sp;  Regards,
>
>      &nbs= p;  Behcet
>
> __________________________________________= _______________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription = options, please visit:
> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap<= br>>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
= >
_________________________________________________________________<= br>To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

Archives: http= ://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap

<= /body> --0-1669331040-1161302565=:48025-- --===============0091263836== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0091263836==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 22:24:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gak3u-00075u-8T for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:24:43 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gak3p-0000TM-Cy for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:24:42 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B02C144806B for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59EF4A45AC for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7372398011 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MMS3.broadcom.com (mms3.broadcom.com [216.31.210.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824B0398037 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10.10.64.154 by MMS3.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.2.2)); Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:23:50 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 450F6D01-B290-425C-84F8-E170B39A25C9 Received: by mail-irva-10.broadcom.com (Postfix, from userid 47) id 931D42AF; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-irva-8.broadcom.com (mail-irva-8 [10.10.64.221]) by mail-irva-10.broadcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BAED2AE; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com (mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com [10.16.128.215]) by mail-irva-8.broadcom.com (MOS 3.7.5a-GA) with ESMTP id EIF70677; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com (nt-sjca-0751 [10.16.192.221]) by mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6683920502; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:23:49 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:23:40 -0700 Message-ID: <8954613CA6BB3242A1531D916A527A41020A2F15@NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com> In-Reply-To: <25381523.1161294114640.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acbzx6gzRnIyqDJeSh2XVUA2VdetaQAIMftA From: "Puneet Agarwal" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Abhijit Choudhury" , "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-WSS-ID: 6926ECBC2A0535867-01-01 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 025f8c5000216988bfe31585db759250 I agree with Scott - it is important that we come up with a solution that is unambiguous and works even if packet formats for dtls change. It seems that we (capwap) are one of the first folks trying to use DTLS. It would be good to know how other folks (if any) have used DTLS for their applications. If someone has already solved the "discovery to dtls-secure" like problem before, then it would be good to understand how they did it and maybe use a similar approach (rather than re-invent the wheel). In that regard, does anyone know of other groups using dtls to secure their protocol? Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem: (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control packets go on this channel (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data packets go on this channel (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap data/control packets go on this channel. Demux for data vs control happens after decryption. We may need more ports if we need to support different QoS levels (as pointed by Scott)- that to me is a bigger problem. Wondering what the group thinks.... Thanks. -Puneet -----Original Message----- From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:42 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Abhijit Choudhury; Dorothy Stanley; Michael Montemurro Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports You know, after seeing my post on this topic yesterday, I thought maybe my sarcasm was a bit overdone, and I actually regretted that post. But now, after seeing what sort of hoops you're willing to jump through to avoid that much simpler approach at apparently any cost... well, now I'm not so sure. Sigh. Comments inline... >The AC maintains a DTLS SA table which consists of the WTP's IP address >and UDP port numbers. When the AC receives a Discovery Request on the >CAPWAP control port, it performs a lookup to determine whether the >IP/Port information matches the DTLS SA table. If the IP/Port does not >match an entry in the DTLS SA table, the AC responds with a Discovery >response and waits for a successful DTLS setup, which would create a >new DTLS SA. If there is a match, then the packet is a DTLS encrypted >payload, which is sent to the DTLS stack. The following is an example >of the packet exchange (note the ports used here are for illustration >purposes only): > >WTP AC >(WTP Picks a pseudo-random source port) >----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (662, 1233) ------> ><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 662) ------ > >Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any >value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this >packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. One >alternative to reserving a WBID would be to require that the Reserved >field in the CAPWAP header be set to '111', which would provide another >way to differentiate the packets. Let's stop here, because this is where it starts getting twisted. I didn't recommend this sort of hack. There are two major flaws to this approach. The first is that you assume that the DTLS header format will not change. That's probably unwise, given that it is a new protocol. This early in the game, anything after the version field is fair game, and hacking based on assumptions of immutability is (in my opinion, at least) A Bad Thing (tm). The second issue here is that you're not looking carefully at the DTLS header alignment as it currently exists. Each version change results in the first version byte being decremented. It is currently FE, and the next will be FD, then FC, and so on. Look at what this means for the WBID field (which, by the way, could *also* be changed before we've finished with capwap): 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0| |VERSION| RID | HLEN | WBID |T|F|L|W|M| FLAGS | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ | type | protocol version | epoch +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ FEFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ FDFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ FCFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ FBFF |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ FAFF |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| +---------------+---------------+ Since there are two WBID bits affected, your scheme requires that there be at least 4 untouchable WBID values (assuming we don't change the capwap header): 7, 15, 23, and 31. This is starting to sound more than a little bit hacky, and certainly not something you want to implement in hardware. I won't go line by line on the stuff below, as this is more than I can ask people to bear. I have only two points to make here: 1) regarding the comment below where you say "Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit 'in the clear'", I'm wondering: why are unauthenticated values in the UDP and IP headers more trustworthy than values following them? Think about it. 2) look at the signalling complexity you are adding! And all this to avoid ...what, exactly? Scott > >--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (662, 1233) --------> ><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 662) --------- > >The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is >being established (or the alternative proposed above)... at this point >all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. Once the DTLS >session is established, all CAPWAP packets will be marked internally as >'Application Data', and once decrypted will be sent back into the >CAPWAP module for processing... > >-------- CAPWAP Control/Join Request (662, 1233) ---------> (includes >support for DTLS/Data) ><------- CAPWAP Control/Join Response (1233, 662) --------- (Dictates >whether DTLS is to be used on data plane, and a random cookie) > >When inactivity occurs over the control plane, the keepalive is sent to >keep the session alive (also useful for NAT traversal): > >------- CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Request (662, 1233) -----> ><------ CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Response (1233, 662) ----- > >The following is optional, and occurs if DTLS needs to be used on the >data plane UDP port: > >----------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (685, 1234) ----------> ><---------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (1234, 685) ----------- > >Again, the WBID of 23 is used to identify the DTLS packet. When used >and established, all CAPWAP data packets will be marked as 'Application >Data' within DTLS. So these packets would pop back out of the DTLS >stack for CAPWAP processing. Yes, this requires that the data plane >remember the configuration enforced by the AC, and therefore it does >not mark each packet as "with DTLS" or "without DTLS". We can do this, >but frankly it provides little value because ultimately, if DTLS was >required and a packet is sent in the clear, it will be dropped anyhow. >Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit "in >the clear". > >A specialized packet is then sent on the data plane to create the >correlation between the control and data plane sessions. A new bit in >the CAPWAP header, which I will call 'D' (for Data Management) is set >so this gets treated as a specialized packet on the data plane UDP port: > >---------- CAPWAP Data/Announce Req (685, 1234) ----------> (Including >the cookie to bind to control channel) ><--------- CAPWAP Data/Announce resp (1234, 685) ---------- > >NOTE: Another alternative to this scheme is to include a session >identifier in the header, which provides the correlation between the >control and data channel. This would be much simpler to implement, and >not require special processing of the data plane. However, if folks >believe that keeping the NAT session fresh, then we need some mechanism >to keep the channel alive. If this is found to be desirable/required, >then a periodic exchange needs to occur to keep the NAT table entry >fresh (again, with the 'D' bit set): > >------- CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Request (685, 1234) --------> ><------ CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Response (1234, 685) -------- > >Should the WTP fail, it would pick a new source UDP port for both the >control and data plane, and send a Discovery Request using the control >UDP port. It is important to note that the longevity of the uniqueness >characteristics of the UDP port is not very long (e.g., one day after >reboot). This is a new requirement on the WTP, but not unrealistic >since >802.11 APs have to do this for the RADIUS protocol today (to maintain >unique session identifiers). The AC does not flush its current DTLS SA >until the DTLS exchange is complete (and successful). > >WTP AC >(WTP picks a new pseudo-random source port) >----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (772, 1233) ------> ><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 772) ------ > >Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when set to any >value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we know this >packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. > >--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (772, 1233) --------> ><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 772) --------- > >The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is >being established... at this point all packets are from now on fed into >the DTLS engine. > >If NAT is used, it is possible that the WTP's source IP address is used >for multiple WTPs. In this case, the AC can identify each WTP using the >DTLS credentials. The AC can then delete the old DTLS SAs (control and >optionally data), that are associated with the WTP's credentials. >Alternatively, the AC could simply wait for the sessions to expire. > > >Pat Calhoun >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >Cisco Systems > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:08 AM > To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: need clarification on UDP ports > > > Pat, Mike, Dorothy: > > I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec. > In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP > ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets. > > There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets: > 1. DTLS protected control packets > 2. Unprotected control packets > 3. Unprotected data packets > 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets > > Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ? > > 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any > deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment > if some data channels are encrypted and some not. > There has to be a way to distinguish these four > kinds of packets. The draft is not clear about how > this is done. > > Thanks, > Abhijit > > >_________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 19 22:34:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GakDI-0002iB-3g for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:34:24 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GakDG-0004wV-9G for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:34:24 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC10F1448031 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BA44A45AC for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817611448031 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9B8144802F for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp.mei.co.jp (8.12.11.20060614/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id k9K2Xmho018626; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:33:48 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id k9K2Xnb16285; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:33:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/whitesox) with ESMTP id k9K2XlF01457; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:33:47 +0900 (JST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:32:35 +0800 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD013E3728@pslexc01.psl.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations Thread-Index: Acbu8s465akdTlO6RPehFnWHhbI5OAE/JCpw From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Scott Kelly" , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i Considerations X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c2e58d9873012c90703822e287241385 Hi Scott and all, That is an excellent summary of the issue. Would suggest including the whole analysis into the Security Consideration of the CAPWAP spec regardless which final approach the group decides to take (since this issue is specific to/introduced by CAPWAP architecture). cheers Cheng Hong > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Kelly [mailto:skelly@arubanetworks.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:10 AM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Issue 43 - Explanation for 802.11i > Considerations > > Hi All, > > Charles and I have been discussing the keyrsc issue, and > we're in agreement on an opinion of the overall security > implications. > > To summarize briefly, there are small exposures in either > case which are both pretty trivial. The small replay exposure > is probably the more acceptable of the two, given the > complexity level of the proposed 'fix'. > The added complexity of passing the KCK to the WTP together > with the slight associated exposure tips the scale slightly > more toward the "just choose a keyrsc value that will work > (zero or a better one if you know it)" solution. > > If you want the background considerations, a more detailed > discussion follows. Otherwise, there you have it. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > ---- > 1. Setting KeyRSC = 0 > > In the current CAPWAP protocol, the 4-way handshake occurs > between the AC and the STA, and once this is complete, the AC > pushes the 802.11 cryptographic key material (the PTK) to the > WTP. In cases where a GTK (the group transient key, which is > used to cryptographically protect broadcast/multicast > traffic) is already active for the ESSID the STA is > associating to, the GTK is identified in message 3 of the > 4-way handshake, along with the current receive sequence > counter (KeyRSC) for messages protected under that key. Since > the WTP maintains the active KeyRSC, the AC currently has no > way to know precisely what the correct value is at the point > at which message 3 is constructed. To work around this, LWAPP > designers chose to have the AC simply set this value to 0. > > This decision does not affect the WTP, who maintains this > counter; it only affects the STA. Hence, there is no > interoperability implication to this behavior. The STA, upon > receiving the first valid broadcast/multicast message from > the WTP, will update its RSC to the correct value, and will > be synchronized with the WTP's value from then on. > > The security consequences of this approach are as follows: > > - the period beginning when the STA installs the GTK and > KeyRSC and ending when the STA receives the first valid > bcast/mcast message from the WTP represents a window of > opportuntity for an attacker > > - the window has two dimensions: the time it remains open, > and the relative width, which is measured in terms of the > difference between the current valid KeyRSC value and 0 (i.e. > the magnitude of the current > KeyRSC) > > - so long as this window remains open, an adversary could > replay previous valid bcast/mcast messages, and so long as > those messages are replayed in monotonically increasing order > with respect to the RSC value, the STA would accept these > messages as valid. The higher the current KeyRSC, the more > messages an adversary could potentially replay, assuming no > valid bcast/mcast messages were sent by the WTP (i.e. the > window remained open). > > 1.1 Mitigating Circumstances > > - typical wireless networks with a small population of users > will see multiple broadcasts per second, so this window will > normally be open for a very short (sub-second) interval. > > - an unauthenticated (outsider) adversary would be restricted > to blindly playing back mcast/bcast traffic; while the > adverary could make some inferences with respect to the > encrypted traffic type based on traffic analysis techniques, > the adversary could not be certain of what message content he > was replaying. > > - an authenticated adversary would be capable of selectively > playing back mcast/bcast messages whose content is known, but > that same adversary could generate the same (or similar) > messages in real-time even after the STA's KeyRSC is updated. > That is, there is little benefit in replaying existing > messages rather than simply constructing new ones. > > - if there are mcast/bcast message streams suitable for > launching an attack, in order to know that such an attack is > present in the recorded stream, the attacker would with high > probablility need to be an insider > - in which case replay capability is not a necessary > condition for launching the attack. > > 1.2 Conclusions > > Setting the KeyRSC to 0 opens a small window of opportunity > during which previously transmitted mcast/bcast traffic could > be replayed. While this could have operational implications > (e.g. the STA might instantiate stale ARP entries, receive > stale NetBIOS packets to which it may respond, or receive > other invalid information that somehow 'contaminates' its > view of the network), we believe the impact would be both > detectable and quite small in a reasonably robust STA. > > Also, the primary threat introduced pertains to an outsider > blindly playing back recorded data, as an insider would have > knowledge of the group key, and so rather than wasting time > collecting packets off the air and attempting to replay them > within a window of opportunity of indefinite size, the > adversary would be better advised to simply generate the > spurious packets. That is, an insider adversary has better > tools at his disposal than this window of opportunity provides. > > While it is certainly prudent to narrow the window as much as > is practicable, this must be weighed carefully against the > complexity of the solution vs the minimal threat level this > represents. > > > 2. WTP puts current KeyRSC into message 3 > > One proposed solution the problem of the AC not knowing the > current KeyRSC entails having the WTP insert the correct > value in message 3 of the 4-way handshake. This requires the > WTP to know the Key Confirmation Key (KCK) in order to > compute the MIC on the message. Currently, this value is only > known to the AC and STA. > > The security considerations for this approach are as follows: > > - currently, the WTP has no knowledge of the KCK; having this > value would provide the WTP with the ability to modify the > RSN Information Element (IE) containing the supported > cryptographic algorithms advertised by the AC during the > association process. This IE is included in this message > explicitly because the MIC computation provides a secure > mechanism for validating the value used during association > against this authenticated value. That mechanism would now be > open to subversion, and in particular, the WTP would have the > ability to downgrade the cryptographic algorithms the AC is > advertising without the ACs knowledge. > > 2.1 Mitigating Circumstances > > - an evil WTP would also have access to the PTK once the > 4-way handshake completes. Almost anything that could be > accomplished via a downgrade attack could also be > accomplished by passing off the PTK to a collaborator. > > - the downgraded RSN IE's used during association could be > detected using sniffers > > - that fact that STAs are associating with downgraded > capabilities could be detected via log inspection > > 2.2 Conclusions > > The minimal exposure introduced by communicating the KCK to > the WTP does not represent a signficant threat due to the > fact that the WTP also possesses the PTK. This implies that > appropriate measures are already in place to ensure the > trustworthiness of the WTP. While one could dream up > scenarios in which a collaborating evil STA took advantage of > the downgraded cryptographic algorithms to somehow attack an > unsuspecting STA, there are plenty of ways in which the evil > WTP could communicate the PTK to the evil STA, so possession > of the KCK adds little adversarial capability. > > > 3. Recommendations > > Security analysis is often very subtle, and there is > certainly some art involved. This appears to be one of those > difficult cases in which some art will be required. Both > approaches to this problem entail vulnerabilities. The > question is, do these represent real-world threats from a > practical standpoint? > > In terms of the small window of opportunity opened by setting > KeyRSC=0, it is difficult to imagine how this could be > leveraged by an outsider adversary, especially given that the > window size will be sub-second on typical networks. And it's > even more of a stretch to imagine an insider (who has access > to the GTK and the ability to send legitimate bcast/mcast > frames) choosing this avenue for an attack. > > Odds seem very much in our favor that nothing bad will happen > if we leave this small window open, and after reviewing this > briefly, Russ Housley agrees. > > In terms of the potential downgrade vulnerability introduced > by giving the KCK to a subverted WTP, it seems clear that > there most likely would be bigger worries there. It's not > totally impossible to cook up an attack scenario, but there > are almost certainly simpler avenues of attack. > > Still, on a practical level, pushing the KCK to the WTP adds > complexity. > The KCK would have to be delivered to the WTP somehow (and in > an acknowledged CAPWAP control message, while the 4-way > handshake is carried in the data channel). This would add > latency to the association process (already a problem as it > is, and this would only make it worse). > > Both approaches have what appear to be minor security > implications, yet neither approach invites any obvious > attack. It is entirely possible that there is no practical > way to exploit the weaknesses exposed in either case, but it > is also at least slightly possible that some subtle set of > circumstances might lead to an exploit in one case or the > other - we simply cannot be certain. > > Taking these things into consideration, it seems like a good > operational compromise to assume the limited risk associated > with the minimally open replay window, while providing > appropriate security recommendations to try to narrow it if > it is possible to do so with minimal added complexity. > -------------------------------- > > Let us know if you have any further questions on this. > > Scott > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From akstcartistruemnsdgs@artistrue.com Fri Oct 20 09:00:57 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gatzd-0001sT-Bp for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:00:57 -0400 Received: from d039244.adsl.hansenet.de ([80.171.39.244]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gatza-0002Mc-Sj for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:00:57 -0400 Received: from 216.193.201.145 (HELO mailcluster.globat.com) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (MV6NRF3J O70TQ6) id KMT9M4-GV279E-FA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Nov 2006 13:00:01 -0060 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2006 13:00:01 -0060 From: "Amalia Baird" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.62.14) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <993744558.32495702705116@thebat.net> To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: 27% up today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam: Not detected X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Hi Mariano, look at it its' 27% UP! I mentioned about this company yesterday known as American Unity Investments Inc (AUNI) Yay, I told you to watch it yesterday and it boomed from .7to .9! I made easy 20% just in one single day.I am amazed, did you buy some as well I hope? As you can see its climbing, but by just looking at it I can tell it's gonna explode even more.So you still have a window to digg in while it's still in it's low.So what a hey, go ahead buy some, make some money while it's there. It can easily do another 30% tomorrow.I wouldn't wait any longer if I be you... I hope it was a helper.I'll email you later this week. Patti. a common flirt than she has been here. the officers will find women better worth their notice. let us "i do assure you, sir, that i have no pretensions whatever to that kind of elegance which consists From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 20 10:22:05 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GavG9-0006sV-5x for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:22:05 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GavG5-0007wo-BE for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:22:05 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0A91448047 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D024A43C6 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4CA144801F for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.200.84]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F228B1448032 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-68-49-199-146.hsd1.md.comcast.net[68.49.199.146]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with ESMTP id <2006102014205601400qretde>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:20:56 +0000 Message-ID: <4538DB4C.3040605@cs.umd.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:21:00 -0400 From: Charles Clancy User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Behcet Sarikaya References: <20061020000245.51543.qmail@web60324.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061020000245.51543.qmail@web60324.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030908010301070905030203" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7118f330e2af0a096ba071c5e99ca10e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030908010301070905030203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Behcet, 11R D3 8.5A.6 (attached for those interested) defines the basic properties and summarizes the exchanges, but I don't see any packet formats, transport mechanism, link security mechanism, or method for establishing a trust relationship between the MDC and possible KHs. In CAPWAP, there's no AAA context to transfer, because the AAA context always resides at the AC. Using the existing mechanism for key distribution (via Add Mobile messages) is sufficient for transporting PTKs to the WTPs. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > Hi Pat and Charles, > > Section 8.5A.6 in 802.11r D3 describes the key distribution protocol. It > is true that earlier versions like D2.2 did not have it. > So my Local MAC scenarios were based on this protocol. > The key distribution protocol makes it unnecessary to use the context > transfer ahead of time and it is quite nice to generate and transfer the > key in a just-in-time manner. I thought it was good and used it in CAPWAPRP. > > Regards, > > Behcet > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > To: sarikaya@ieee.org; capwap > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:31:51 AM > Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Behcet, > > The architecture laid out in your specification seems to conflict with > the CAPWAP architecture. > > A couple of specific concerns before I get into the meat of the > document: > > > We use [802.11r] key distribution protocol for transfering key > context > > for Local MAC WTPs. > > The latest 802.11r draft does not define a key distribution protocol to > move key context across WTPs (or APs). So I am not sure what we are > refering to. > > > AC next generates PMK-R1 for R1 key holder (R1KH), i.e. the WTP. > AC > > is now in a position to transfer PMK-R1 context and associated > > authorization to the WTP. R1KH and STA perform a 4-way handshake > and > > generate the session key, PTK. > > The CAPWAP protocol does not assume that the PMK is ever transferred > down into the WTP. Furthermore, the protocol assumes the authenticator > resides in the AC - not the WTP. So this statement seems to change the > fundamental architecture of the CAPWAP protocol. > > I will have many additional questions once I read the specification > completely, but first want to make sure that we agree on whether the > spec is in scope or not (by answering the above questions). > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:43 AM > > To: capwap > > Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > > > Pat and all, > > > > The link: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast > > bss-00.txt > > is now on. > > > > Regards, > > > > --behcet > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > To: Behcet Sarikaya > > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:01:11 PM > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > > > ok, I will once it becomes available. > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] > > *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2006 4:41 PM > > *To:* Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > *Subject:* Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > > > Pat, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > To: Behcet Sarikaya ; > > capwap@frascone.com > > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:02:43 PM > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > > > Behcet, > > > > I believe we've discussed this idea a few times, and I am still > > unsure why we believe CAPWAP needs to define anything to support > > TGr. The current CAPWAP protocol is sufficient to support the > > upcoming standard. > > > > ==> > > The basis is there but we need several extensions. > > Please read the draft and comment, then we can make a > > more informed > > decision, I think. > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > Regards, > > > > --behcet > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > *From:* Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com] > > *Sent:* Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:33 AM > > *To:* capwap@frascone.com > > *Subject:* [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > > > Dear all, > > I submitted a draft on CAPWAP Roaming Protocol in > > 802.11R Domains. > > It should be available soon at the following link: > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-capwap-fast > > bss-00.txt > > > > Regards, > > > > Behcet > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --------------030908010301070905030203 Content-Type: text/plain; name="11r-D3-8.5A.6.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="11r-D3-8.5A.6.txt" 8.5A.6 PMK-R1 distribution within a mobility domain The following procedures are used to distribute PMK-R1s. The STA first derives PMK-R0 keys for use in fast BSS transitions (via the FT Initial Association procedures defined in clause 8A.2) utilizing information from the target AP as defined in 8.5A.4. When the IEEE 802.1X AKM is used to establish keys, the PMK-R0 Key Holder derives the PMK-R0 key utilizing the MSK acquired through EAP based authentication. The PMK-R0 shall be stored in a component called the PMK-R0 Key Holder. Each PMK-R0 Key Holder is responsible for deriving a PMK-R1 key for key for each PMK-R1 Key Holder in the mobility domain. The PMK-R1 shall be stored in a component called the PMK-R1 Key Holder. PMK-R1 keys are distributed to PMK-R1 Key Holders by the PMK-R0 Key Holder using a secure three party protocol described herein. The Mobility Domain Controller (MDC) shall mutually authenticate and authorize all members of the mobility domain that can be Key Holders. Using the MDC all Key Holders can establish security associations with each other. The identities they use during the authentication process shall be their NAS-Id which is identical to the information included in the NASID IE in all beacons and probe responses. The Key Distribution Protocol has the following properties - Authentication of entities involved in key distribution - Confidentiality of the key distribution - Authorization of the status of a PMK-R1 holder - Validation of the authorization - Receipt of the key is acknowledged - Correctness of the authorization attributes assigned to the STA The Key Distribution Protocol is initiated by the STA by including an R1DIST Information element along with other Fast BSS Transition Information Elements in either Authentication or Action frames. The token of this element shall be the AES-KeyWrap of a sixteen (16) octet random number chosen by the STA, called Ns, concatenated with the identity of the target AP as determined by the NASID Information Element in its beacons and probe responses. The key used to perform this wrapping shall be "mk" described in section 8.5A.4. The target AP shall extract the token from the R1DIST Information Element and send it along with the MAC address of the STA to the R0KH identified in the FTIE under the protection of the security association the target AP (a Key Holder) shares with the PMK-R0 Key Holder. If the target AP does not recognize the R0KH in the FTIE or does not have a security association with it authentication fails with status 38 ("the request has not been successful as one or more parameters have invalid values"). Upon receipt of this message the R0KH looks up the PMK-R0 security association it shares with the STA based upon the MAC address in the message. It then unwraps the token using "mk" describe in section 8.5A.4. If the unwrapping fails or the R0KH does not have a PMK-R0 security association for that STA it returns a failure message to the target AP which then fails the authentication attempt with status 38. The R0KH compares the NAS-Id from the unwrapped token with the identity the target AP used during when establishing its shared security association. If the two do not match the R0KH returns a failure message to the target AP which then fails the authentication attempt with status 38. The R0KH then chooses a sixteen (16) octet random number, called Na, and constructs a message back to the target AP consisting of the STA's MAC address, Ns, Na, the PMK-R1, the PMK-R1 Name, all authorization attributes associated with PMKR0 (e.g. session lifetime), and a token representing an AES-KeyWrapping of the NAS-Id of the target AP from the shared security association and Na. The wrapping shall use "mk" described in section 8.5A.4. Upon receipt of this message the target AP shall instantiate a PMK-R1 security association and construct either an Authentication response frame or response action frame depending on the type of request received originally. This frame will include, along with other Fast BSS Transition IEs, an RT1DIST IE which shall encapsulate the token it received from the PMK-R0 Key Holder, and an R1DISTV IE which shall consist of the digest of SHA-256(Ns|Na). Upon receipt of this frame the STA shall perform the following additional validation: it shall unwrap the token in the R1DIST IE and compare the enclosed NAS-Id with the one it received from the target AP in a beacon or probe response. If they do not match the STA must treat this as an authentication failure. If they match the STA computes the digest of SHA-256(Ns|Na) using Na from the unwrapped token and compares it to the value in the R1DISTV IE. If they do not match the STA must treat this as an authentication failure. If they match the STA instantiates its own version of a PMK-R1 security association to share with the target AP and continues with Fast BSS Transition. --------------030908010301070905030203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --------------030908010301070905030203-- From akqmodsg@tpnet.pl Fri Oct 20 10:26:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GavKK-0007jl-Jl for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:26:24 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GavKK-0000JR-Ej for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:26:24 -0400 Received: from esq164.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.20.136.164]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GavKH-0005Tu-FC for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:26:24 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c6f453$bdfac8f0$a4881453@HP28998303564> From: "hard" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Nazareth Netanya Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:26:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C6F464.818398F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 3be09dac38eaa50f02d21c7fcee1128c ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C6F464.818398F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C6F464.818398F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C6F464.818398F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Updated Vehicles or able parallel park in themselves while sit relax = behind or wheel is Local reportnew Toyota hybrid a Britain parking = assist showed video driver of sitting steering pulled. Fellow walked into of pep rally management Chicagos Logan Square see = Mikhaela is? Hearts Congressdo cronyism trump am oversight corporate Frida am = Berrigan Feces soldiers. Imminent offer transfer or files another am failure am messages appear = during am bootup processif couple check will must setup. Serious = Colleague in Revision Number created is Spam Gently persistent Polish = Shine Sensible Common Wasting Exclusives Editorial Calendars Three. Then is spend yours in bookmark like am Recommend Trial Listed or Cannot = contents sites of therefore of careful giving of acceptance a Policyhome = Poptech of Outreach a Campaign Disability Insurance sdi entitled is = weeks is. Free in member lifestyle area or area vacate am apartment search pool = lifestyle is benefit enjoy am rooms season ie exchange ages a feeling = adventure Young wanting oe Gapyear starting tertiary study a studying = break. Microsoft or Mindshare raquo downloads in nti Ninja or one or day Sept = Submitted of don Beach sun or Newtech inc announced usb storage = utility. Sriracha Arab in Emirates abu of Dhabi Dubai is Sharjah Kingdom Blakeney = a Brighton Cambridge Colchester Cranfield Eastbourne is Edinburgh of = Hull Kings Leeds? Focus survey approach chance creative news am softer = shelf in used deems Search Zone. Feeds Hardware Pcbug Computer Group Naples Username Password Create in = password in Navigation Faqs Meeting hear recovering disk failure = Acronis. Supports George Best memorial charity am fundraiser lead or vocalist a = from Brian Bloom Velve Tquot waiting for real in life beginquot. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C6F464.818398F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Updated Vehicles or able parallel park = in=20 themselves while sit relax behind or wheel is Local reportnew Toyota = hybrid a=20 Britain parking assist showed video driver of sitting steering = pulled.
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Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9KImdW6009976; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:48:39 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:48:39 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B18228@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acbzx6gzRnIyqDJeSh2XVUA2VdetaQAIMftAACPwM2A= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Puneet Agarwal" , "Scott G. Kelly" , "Abhijit Choudhury" , "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2006 18:48:39.0785 (UTC) FILETIME=[5BAB6590:01C6F478] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d9ae72af46718088458d214998cc683 I will need time to catch up to this thread, but want to quickly note that I am not against using a separate port. The e-mail I sent out, which I have yet to completely digest Scott's comments, was intended to provide an approach where only two ports are used. If we wish to use three, then that's ok with me too - as long as we can get them allocated. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 7:24 PM > To: Scott G. Kelly; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Abhijit > Choudhury; Dorothy Stanley; Michael Montemurro > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > I agree with Scott - it is important that we come up with a > solution that is unambiguous and works even if packet formats > for dtls change. > > It seems that we (capwap) are one of the first folks trying > to use DTLS. > It would be good to know how other folks (if any) have used > DTLS for their applications. If someone has already solved > the "discovery to dtls-secure" like problem before, then it > would be good to understand how they did it and maybe use a > similar approach (rather than re-invent the wheel). In that > regard, does anyone know of other groups using dtls to secure > their protocol? > > Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem: > (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control > packets go on this channel > (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data > packets go on this channel > (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap > data/control packets go on this channel. Demux for data vs > control happens after decryption. > > We may need more ports if we need to support different QoS > levels (as pointed by Scott)- that to me is a bigger problem. > Wondering what the group thinks.... > > Thanks. > > -Puneet > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:42 PM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Abhijit Choudhury; Dorothy > Stanley; Michael Montemurro > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > You know, after seeing my post on this topic yesterday, I > thought maybe my sarcasm was a bit overdone, and I actually > regretted that post. But now, after seeing what sort of hoops > you're willing to jump through to avoid that much simpler > approach at apparently any cost... well, now I'm not so sure. > > Sigh. Comments inline... > > > >The AC maintains a DTLS SA table which consists of the WTP's > IP address > > >and UDP port numbers. When the AC receives a Discovery > Request on the > >CAPWAP control port, it performs a lookup to determine whether the > >IP/Port information matches the DTLS SA table. If the > IP/Port does not > >match an entry in the DTLS SA table, the AC responds with a > Discovery > >response and waits for a successful DTLS setup, which would create a > >new DTLS SA. If there is a match, then the packet is a DTLS > encrypted > >payload, which is sent to the DTLS stack. The following is > an example > >of the packet exchange (note the ports used here are for > illustration > >purposes only): > > > >WTP AC > >(WTP Picks a pseudo-random source port) > >----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (662, 1233) ------> > ><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 662) ------ > > > >Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when > set to any > > >value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we > know this > >packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. One > >alternative to reserving a WBID would be to require that the > Reserved > >field in the CAPWAP header be set to '111', which would > provide another > > >way to differentiate the packets. > > Let's stop here, because this is where it starts getting > twisted. I didn't recommend this sort of hack. There are two > major flaws to this approach. The first is that you assume > that the DTLS header format will not change. That's probably > unwise, given that it is a new protocol. > This early in the game, anything after the version field is > fair game, and hacking based on assumptions of immutability > is (in my opinion, at > least) A Bad Thing (tm). > > The second issue here is that you're not looking carefully at > the DTLS header alignment as it currently exists. Each > version change results in the first version byte being > decremented. It is currently FE, and the next will be FD, > then FC, and so on. Look at what this means for the WBID > field (which, by the way, could *also* be changed before > we've finished with capwap): > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |0 0 0 1|0 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1|1 0 1 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0| > |VERSION| RID | HLEN | WBID |T|F|L|W|M| FLAGS | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ > | type | protocol version | epoch > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/ > FEFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| > +---------------+---------------+ > FDFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| > +---------------+---------------+ > FCFF |1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| > +---------------+---------------+ > FBFF |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| > +---------------+---------------+ > FAFF |1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0|1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1| > +---------------+---------------+ > > Since there are two WBID bits affected, your scheme requires > that there be at least 4 untouchable WBID values (assuming we > don't change the capwap header): 7, 15, 23, and 31. This is > starting to sound more than a little bit hacky, and certainly > not something you want to implement in hardware. > > I won't go line by line on the stuff below, as this is more > than I can ask people to bear. I have only two points to make here: > > 1) regarding the comment below where you say "Furthermore, I > trust an authenticated payload much more than a bit 'in the > clear'", I'm > wondering: why are unauthenticated values in the UDP and IP > headers more trustworthy than values following them? Think about it. > > 2) look at the signalling complexity you are adding! And all > this to avoid ...what, exactly? > > > Scott > > > > > > > > >--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (662, 1233) --------> > ><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 662) --------- > > > >The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is > >being established (or the alternative proposed above)... at > this point > >all packets are from now on fed into the DTLS engine. Once the DTLS > >session is established, all CAPWAP packets will be marked > internally as > > >'Application Data', and once decrypted will be sent back into the > >CAPWAP module for processing... > > > >-------- CAPWAP Control/Join Request (662, 1233) ---------> > (includes > >support for DTLS/Data) > ><------- CAPWAP Control/Join Response (1233, 662) --------- > (Dictates > >whether DTLS is to be used on data plane, and a random cookie) > > > >When inactivity occurs over the control plane, the keepalive > is sent to > > >keep the session alive (also useful for NAT traversal): > > > >------- CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Request (662, 1233) -----> > ><------ CAPWAP Control/Keepalive Response (1233, 662) ----- > > > >The following is optional, and occurs if DTLS needs to be > used on the > >data plane UDP port: > > > >----------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (685, 1234) ----------> > ><---------- DTLS Session Setup/Data (1234, 685) ----------- > > > >Again, the WBID of 23 is used to identify the DTLS packet. When used > >and established, all CAPWAP data packets will be marked as > 'Application > > >Data' within DTLS. So these packets would pop back out of the DTLS > >stack for CAPWAP processing. Yes, this requires that the data plane > >remember the configuration enforced by the AC, and therefore it does > >not mark each packet as "with DTLS" or "without DTLS". We > can do this, > >but frankly it provides little value because ultimately, if DTLS was > >required and a packet is sent in the clear, it will be > dropped anyhow. > >Furthermore, I trust an authenticated payload much more than > a bit "in > >the clear". > > > >A specialized packet is then sent on the data plane to create the > >correlation between the control and data plane sessions. A > new bit in > >the CAPWAP header, which I will call 'D' (for Data > Management) is set > >so this gets treated as a specialized packet on the data plane UDP > port: > > > >---------- CAPWAP Data/Announce Req (685, 1234) ----------> > (Including > >the cookie to bind to control channel) > ><--------- CAPWAP Data/Announce resp (1234, 685) ---------- > > > >NOTE: Another alternative to this scheme is to include a session > >identifier in the header, which provides the correlation between the > >control and data channel. This would be much simpler to > implement, and > >not require special processing of the data plane. However, if folks > >believe that keeping the NAT session fresh, then we need > some mechanism > > >to keep the channel alive. If this is found to be > desirable/required, > >then a periodic exchange needs to occur to keep the NAT table entry > >fresh (again, with the 'D' bit set): > > > >------- CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Request (685, 1234) --------> > ><------ CAPWAP Data/Keepalive Response (1234, 685) -------- > > > >Should the WTP fail, it would pick a new source UDP port for > both the > >control and data plane, and send a Discovery Request using > the control > >UDP port. It is important to note that the longevity of the > uniqueness > >characteristics of the UDP port is not very long (e.g., one > day after > >reboot). This is a new requirement on the WTP, but not unrealistic > >since > >802.11 APs have to do this for the RADIUS protocol today (to > maintain > >unique session identifiers). The AC does not flush its > current DTLS SA > >until the DTLS exchange is complete (and successful). > > > >WTP AC > >(WTP picks a new pseudo-random source port) > >----- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Request (772, 1233) ------> > ><---- CAPWAP Control/Discovery Response (1233, 772) ------ > > > >Using Scott's recommendation to look at the WBID, which when > set to any > > >value other than 23 (which we will need to reserve), then we > know this > >packet is a discovery request, and process it accordingly. > > > >--------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (772, 1233) --------> > ><-------- DTLS Session Setup/Control (1233, 772) --------- > > > >The WBID value of 23 will be an indication that the DTLS session is > >being established... at this point all packets are from now > on fed into > > >the DTLS engine. > > > >If NAT is used, it is possible that the WTP's source IP > address is used > > >for multiple WTPs. In this case, the AC can identify each > WTP using the > > >DTLS credentials. The AC can then delete the old DTLS SAs > (control and > >optionally data), that are associated with the WTP's credentials. > >Alternatively, the AC could simply wait for the sessions to expire. > > > > > >Pat Calhoun > >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > >Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > > From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:08 AM > > To: Dorothy Stanley; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Michael Montemurro > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: need clarification on UDP ports > > > > > > Pat, Mike, Dorothy: > > > > I have a question based on v03 of the capwap spec. > > In section 3.1, the spec mentions well-known UDP > > ports for the CAPWAP control and data packets. > > > > There are four kinds of CAPWAP packets: > > 1. DTLS protected control packets > > 2. Unprotected control packets > > 3. Unprotected data packets > > 4. (Optional) DTLS protected data packets > > > > Will there be 4 well-known UDP port numbers ? > > > > 1, 2 and 3 will be present simultaneously in any > > deployment. 3 and 4 may co-exist in a deployment > > if some data channels are encrypted and some not. > > There has to be a way to distinguish these four > > kinds of packets. The draft is not clear about how > > this is done. > > > > Thanks, > > Abhijit > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > >Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 20 15:05:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GazgA-0007ev-4t for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:05:14 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gazg7-0001BC-GK for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:05:14 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FCA1448036 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D6B4A43C6 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E77398040 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571A2398008 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.47] (helo=elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Gazfd-0004oN-Gy; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:04:41 -0400 Received: from 75.6.46.166 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:04:41 -0400 Message-ID: <27382538.1161371081529.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:04:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: pagarwal@broadcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff710668630575d3ed05324cf65e06b1a8b4c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.47 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 > It seems that we (capwap) are one of the first folks trying > to use DTLS. > It would be good to know how other folks (if any) have used DTLS for > their applications. If someone has already solved the "discovery to > dtls-secure" like problem before, then it would be good to understand > how they did it and maybe use a similar approach (rather than > re-invent > the wheel). In that regard, does anyone know of other groups > using dtls > to secure their protocol? There are currently drafts active for using DTLS with syslog, SDP, and DCCP. Also, TLS has been used with many protocols, and we can certainly look there for inspiration. In general, there are two models. In the first, a given port is considered (D)TLS-only. In the other, the application somehow signals it's desire to convert the session to (D)TLS. For example, some applications support a "STARTTLS" directive, and for secure syslog a client might send the string "AUTH TLS CLIENT", to which the server will reply OK or ERROR. In general, once (D)TLS is on, no unprotected packets are allowed. > Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem: > (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control > packets go > on this channel > (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data packets go on > this channel > (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap data/control packets > go on this channel. Demux for data vs control happens after > decryption. > > We may need more ports if we need to support different QoS levels (as > pointed by Scott)- that to me is a bigger problem. Wondering what the > group thinks.... I've been re-thinking my position on this, given that the working group is committed to a multiport approach. Certainly there are multiple ways to solve this, and while I would prefer a solution that didn't involve adding yet more ports, we are where we are. That said, I think adding a 3rd port which is only used for discovery operations solves part of the problem. In that case, the control channel is always DTLS traffic, and we have an unambiguous solution which requires no protocol hacks. As for the data channel, it's a little more complex. If hardware vendors must know a priori whether data is protected or not, the only options are either two data ports or a type header, and given the dramatic allergic reactions we've seen to protocol layering beyond the udp header here, distinct ports seem to be the only option on the table. However, if hardware vendors support tuple-plumbing, we can do this with one data port. Tuple-plumbing solves the problem by letting the application tell the hardware when a session is protected or not, but you have to look at the source port too. This is part of the problem some of Pat's signalling is meant to solve. Once the AC knows what characteristics a given tuple should have, this can be plumbed into the hardare. This still leaves two problems: associating a NAT'd data channel with the appropriate control channel, and the QoS problem for the data channel. The channel association can be solved by using the session ID, as has been noted numerous times in past threads. One way this could be extended to encompass multiple data channels would be to extend the session ID field, and treat the high-order portion as the session id, and the low-order portion as the channel id (control channel has channel id 0, data channel with no QoS has channel id 1, and so on). Just a thought. Since there will be initial ambiguity when multiple WTPs are behind a NAT, there are two options: 1) don't worry about it; let the WTP establish a DTLS session without knowing which control channel it belongs to, and then get the session binding out of the first protected data packet (which may be an echo) to create the binding; if no packets come within some preset interval, tear down the DTLS session. 2) do some inline signalling, as Pat suggested. This could be via a capwap header with some special value, or it could be the text STARTDTLS along with the session/channel id - whatever. I think, based on the above, that a 3-port solution exists - but this depends on what is workable for the hardware vendors. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 20 16:10:16 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gb0h6-0003Qz-1b for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:10:16 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gb0gX-0004UR-Tx for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:10:16 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54E53980A5 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6F724A43C6 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0191144801C for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910531448010 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m18so1028577nfc for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.98.13 with SMTP id v13mr805920bub; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.118.16 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369e612f0610201300l2531529di8451d90167b123e6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:30:52 +0530 From: "Navin (NKA)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" In-Reply-To: <8965479.1161295883589.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <8965479.1161295883589.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 On 10/20/06, Scott G. Kelly wrote: > >[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for handling > >discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result in slower > >synchronization between WTP and AC FSM? > > Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity is unnecessary, to say the least. [NKA] Scott, now you are not agreeing to what you said in youre previous email. Look at the snippet of the same. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS >message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately >has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS >session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so. (Imagine >this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify >request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as >Client Hello without Cookie, and so on). That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue, which is below * * * In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP will get no response. This means failure recovery will not occur until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field, and since the WTP may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing via a special port is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any additional value than what can be achieved without special port approach. Scott's additional reasoning that two port approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally disagree with the argument. I claim that the same risk exists even with 3-port approach also. > > I think Abhijit's point is correct: it should be very clear whether a packet is control, data, discovery, and protected vs unprotected. Either we can do that by using more ports, or we can find another way. But I don't think shoving a discovery packet into the dtls engine is "a good thing". > > Scott > > > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 20 16:39:18 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gb19C-0002oB-15 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:39:18 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gb198-0003ee-FF for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:39:18 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A8F3980A3 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD654A45AC for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B34398070 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E42C398040 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Oct 2006 13:38:58 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9KKcumF014130 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:38:56 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9KKcuip005486 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:38:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:38:55 -0700 Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC0232246F@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: CAPWAP Timer element issue Thread-Index: Acb0h8LbID2mUdDPSw2/a22E0D8uaA== From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2006 20:38:56.0585 (UTC) FILETIME=[C396F390:01C6F487] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4.cisco.com; header.From=boohara@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 In 4.4.12 of the -03 draft, the Discovery Timer and Echo Timer fields are defined. The value of the field determines the number of seconds between the two types of Request packets. What does a value of zero mean in this field? For the Echo Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be defined to mean that no Echo Request packets are sent. For the Discovery Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be reserved and, if received by a WTP, is interpreted to be the same as if the value of 1 was received. -Bob Bob O'Hara Cisco Systems - WNBU Phone: +1 408 853 5513 Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Fri Oct 20 17:54:52 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gb2KK-0000s6-8r for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:54:52 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gb2KG-0008HN-Hn for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:54:52 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5143980A5 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8874A45AC for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC1B144801C for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD741448014 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.40] (helo=elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Gb2Jm-00029c-QO; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:54:18 -0400 Received: from 75.6.46.166 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:54:17 -0400 Message-ID: <389468.1161381258661.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:54:18 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: "Navin (NKA)" Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff71065512331407a6004389c573f2d1659e3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.40 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Hi Navin, -----Original Message----- >From: "Navin (NKA)" >Sent: Oct 20, 2006 1:00 PM >To: "Scott G. Kelly" >Cc: capwap@frascone.com >Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > >On 10/20/06, Scott G. Kelly wrote: >> >[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for handling >> >discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result in slower >> >synchronization between WTP and AC FSM? >> >> Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity is unnecessary, to say the least. > >[NKA] Scott, now you are not agreeing to what you said in youre previous email. >Look at the snippet of the same. You know, even if I *had* changed my position -- that is allowed in the IETF. But in this case, I didn't. All along I've been disagreeing with the notion that ambiguity and non-deterministic handling of discovery messages is okay. I'm sorry if anything I've said was in any way confusing. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting DTLS >>message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately >>has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS >>session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so. (Imagine >>this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as HelloVerify >>request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with cookie) as >>Client Hello without Cookie, and so on). > >That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue, >which is below > * > * > * >In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again >before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these >packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP >will get no response. This means failure recovery will not occur >until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are >frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field, and since the WTP >may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC >unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and >unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >[NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing via a special port >is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any additional value than what can be >achieved without special port approach. Okay, so we know where you stand on this. >Scott's additional reasoning that two >port approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally disagree with >the argument. I claim that the same risk exists even with 3-port approach also. Sorry, don't agree with this. Here's what you suggested: >You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP at AC, >but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed such >packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can use >this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which will bring AC's >state machine in sync with that of WTP. To paraphrase, if the AC receives a discovery packet that appears to be from a live WTP, the AC should tear down that WTP's session to sync with the WTP. To me (and maybe it's just me, because I'm so paranoid or something), that sounds an awful lot like an invitation to a DoS party. Go ahead and implement this, and I'll show you how it works :-) Now, as to whether that vulnerability also exists with 3 ports... well, I guess if you implement the way you described, then it does. But if it were my implementation, I wouldn't *ever* tear down a session based on the receipt of unauthenticated data. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sat Oct 21 13:48:01 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbKwz-00062M-Ro for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:48:01 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbKwx-0007BU-CP for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:48:01 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B9A4310FB for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A9D4A45AB for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4134310D3 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 00:12:04 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0834310E1 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:46:58 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:34:53 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0klY4e+7UPnhTRf2FfrW+5OvmDgAo/i+s References: <389468.1161381258661.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: "Hasan Raza" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0086336429==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4bbdb236f788407ff689fcae8109fe34 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0086336429== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F537.379FABFD" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F537.379FABFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of = resolving this issue. I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that there = are few DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap draft. = May be resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the = DTLS/Discovery packet identification issue (#224). To start with, we have to answer few questions: 1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if = there is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying discovery = and DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which = may result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery = packets are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to blindly believe on the discovery packets. 2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by discarding discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker may prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can = detect a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start replaying = the WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP = session. And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I am = wrong here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them = automatically. To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC. For issue (1) above: RULE 1: (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session exists = for the WTP. (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when there = does not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a discovery = packet is received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such = discovery packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC = states. To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):=20 RULE 2: AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without change = or update of any of its states. RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. = Suppose a WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all its discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't be receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the WTP = session, the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This _fixed_ amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be changed administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by changing = response timeout values at AC. To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on a persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the AC = to restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. This concept is same as the one presented in "Idle to Join (aa)" transition, except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join = state, discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC. I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS = attacks, and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header after udp header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets. Thanks Hasan -----Original Message----- From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Fri 10/20/2006 2:54 PM To: Navin (NKA) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports =20 Hi Navin, -----Original Message----- >From: "Navin (NKA)" >Sent: Oct 20, 2006 1:00 PM >To: "Scott G. Kelly" >Cc: capwap@frascone.com >Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > >On 10/20/06, Scott G. Kelly wrote: >> >[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have explained for = handling >> >discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it would result = in slower >> >synchronization between WTP and AC FSM? >> >> Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be = deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes = erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity = is unnecessary, to say the least. > >[NKA] Scott, now you are not agreeing to what you said in youre = previous email. >Look at the snippet of the same. You know, even if I *had* changed my position -- that is allowed in the = IETF. But in this case, I didn't. All along I've been disagreeing with = the notion that ambiguity and non-deterministic handling of discovery = messages is okay. I'm sorry if anything I've said was in any way = confusing. >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------- >>[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up interpreting = DTLS >>message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which unfortunately >>has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its DTLS >>session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think so. = (Imagine >>this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as = HelloVerify >>request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello (with = cookie) as >>Client Hello without Cookie, and so on). > >That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real issue, >which is below > * > * > * >In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery again >before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these >packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the WTP >will get no response. This means failure recovery will not occur >until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts are >frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field, and since the WTP >may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to AC >unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and >unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage. >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------- > >[NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing via a = special port >is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any additional value than what can = be >achieved without special port approach.=20 Okay, so we know where you stand on this. >Scott's additional reasoning that two >port approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally disagree = with >the argument. I claim that the same risk exists even with 3-port = approach also. Sorry, don't agree with this. Here's what you suggested: >You may have a situation in which session information exists for a WTP = at AC, >but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can feed = such >packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC can = use >this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which will = bring AC's >state machine in sync with that of WTP. To paraphrase, if the AC receives a discovery packet that appears to be = from a live WTP, the AC should tear down that WTP's session to sync with = the WTP. To me (and maybe it's just me, because I'm so paranoid or something), = that sounds an awful lot like an invitation to a DoS party. Go ahead and = implement this, and I'll show you how it works :-) Now, as to whether that vulnerability also exists with 3 ports... well, = I guess if you implement the way you described, then it does. But if it = were my implementation, I wouldn't *ever* tear down a session based on = the receipt of unauthenticated data. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F537.379FABFD Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

Hi,

I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of = resolving
this issue.

I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that there = are few
DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap draft. = May be
resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the = DTLS/Discovery
packet identification issue (#224).

To start with, we have to answer few questions:
1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if = there
is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying discovery = and
DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which = may
result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery = packets
are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to = blindly
believe on the discovery packets.

2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by = discarding
discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker = may
prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can = detect
a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start replaying = the
WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP = session.
And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I am = wrong
here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them = automatically.


To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC.

For issue (1) above:
RULE 1:
  (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session = exists for the
  WTP.
  (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when = there does
  not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a = discovery packet is
  received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such = discovery
  packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC = states.

To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):
RULE 2:
  AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without = change or
  update of any of its states.


RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. = Suppose a
WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all = its
discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't = be
receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the WTP = session,
the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This = _fixed_
amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be changed
administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by changing = response
timeout values at AC.

To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on a
persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the AC = to
restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. = This
concept is same as the one presented in "Idle to Join (aa)" = transition,
except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join = state,
discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC.


I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS = attacks,
and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header after = udp
header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets.



Thanks
Hasan



-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Fri 10/20/2006 2:54 PM
To: Navin (NKA)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

Hi Navin,

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Navin (NKA)" <nka.capwap@gmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 20, 2006 1:00 PM
>To: "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>
>Cc: capwap@frascone.com
>Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>On 10/20/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >[NKA] Scott, so you agree that the logic which I have = explained for handling
>> >discovery/DTLS packets is correct, but you feel that it = would result in slower
>> >synchronization between WTP and AC FSM?
>>
>> Actually, no, I don't agree. A discovery packet should be = deterministically treated as a discovery packet - not sometimes = erroneously treated as a dtls packet. I think introducing this ambiguity = is unnecessary, to say the least.
>
>[NKA] Scott, now you are not agreeing to what you said in youre = previous email.
>Look at the snippet of the same.

You know, even if I *had* changed my position -- that is allowed in the = IETF. But in this case, I didn't. All along I've been disagreeing with = the notion that ambiguity and non-deterministic handling of discovery = messages is okay. I'm sorry if anything I've said was in any way = confusing.

>---------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------
>>[NKA] Even if a less-robust AC implementation ends up = interpreting DTLS
>>message as a Discovery packet, do you think WTP (which = unfortunately
>>has passed discovery state) will be able to carry on with its = DTLS
>>session establishment and succeed ultimately? :-( I don't think = so.  (Imagine
>>this: WTP needs to successfully interpret Discovery response as = HelloVerify
>>request, followed by which AC needs to interpret ClientHello = (with cookie) as
>>Client Hello without Cookie, and so on).
>
>That's not the point, and this is minor compared to the real = issue,
>which is below
>           &nb= sp;    *
>           &nb= sp;    *
>           &nb= sp;    *
>In this case the WTP will often need to go through discovery = again
>before reconnecting to the AC. If the AC erroneously feeds these
>packets to its DTLS implementation, they will be rejected, and the = WTP
>will get no response.  This means failure recovery will not = occur
>until the AC times out its DTLS session, and since these timeouts = are
>frequently set as high as 30 seconds in the field,  and since = the WTP
>may exhaust its discovery timers and go into sulking state due to = AC
>unresponsiveness, this has the potential to signficantly (and
>unfortunately, completely avoidably) exacerbate the outage.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------
>
>[NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing via a = special port
>is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any additional value than what = can be
>achieved without special port approach.


Okay, so we know where you stand on this.


>Scott's additional reasoning that two
>port approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally disagree = with
>the argument. I claim that the same risk exists even with 3-port = approach also.


Sorry, don't agree with this. Here's what you suggested:

>You may have a situation in which session information exists for a = WTP at AC,
>but WTP is sending non-DTLS packet. Even in such situation, AC can = feed such
>packets to DTLS module, which will ultimately reject the packet. AC = can use
>this kind of notification to tear down the existing session, which = will bring AC's
>state machine in sync with that of WTP.

To paraphrase, if the AC receives a discovery packet that appears to be = from a live WTP, the AC should tear down that WTP's session to sync with = the WTP.

To me (and maybe it's just me, because I'm so paranoid or something), = that sounds an awful lot like an invitation to a DoS party. Go ahead and = implement this, and I'll show you how it works :-)

Now, as to whether that vulnerability also exists with 3 ports... well, = I guess if you implement the way you described, then it does. But if it = were my implementation, I wouldn't *ever* tear down a session based on = the receipt of unauthenticated data.

Scott

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F537.379FABFD-- --===============0086336429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0086336429==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sat Oct 21 15:02:58 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbM7W-0004Hk-R0 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 15:02:58 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbM7V-0001U8-0u for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 15:02:58 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817FD431231 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3855C4A45AB for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DCC5431215 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [216.148.227.153]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3FD431211 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20061021190231m1300m3e7ge>; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:02:32 +0000 Message-ID: <453A6EC7.9030208@hyperthought.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:02:31 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Puneet Agarwal References: <8954613CA6BB3242A1531D916A527A41020A2F15@NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com> In-Reply-To: <8954613CA6BB3242A1531D916A527A41020A2F15@NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com, Abhijit Choudhury Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Hi Puneet, I forgot to address one point below: Puneet Agarwal wrote: > I agree with Scott - it is important that we come up with a solution > that is unambiguous and works even if packet formats for dtls change. > > It seems that we (capwap) are one of the first folks trying to use DTLS. > It would be good to know how other folks (if any) have used DTLS for > their applications. If someone has already solved the "discovery to > dtls-secure" like problem before, then it would be good to understand > how they did it and maybe use a similar approach (rather than re-invent > the wheel). In that regard, does anyone know of other groups using dtls > to secure their protocol? > > Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem: > (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control packets go > on this channel > (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data packets go on > this channel > (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap data/control packets > go on this channel. Demux for data vs control happens after decryption. Combining secure data and control in one DTLS channel may potentially have problems when you have different QoS levels for control vs data. I think you could get away with it in some cases, but not in others. It's probably simplest to just disallow it. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sat Oct 21 15:31:52 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbMZU-0004Te-2a for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 15:31:52 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbMSy-0004g7-FV for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 15:25:10 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA053980C2 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2F14A43C6 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBF4398064 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.192.81]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0442539802E for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20061021192452m1100rroe3e>; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:24:53 +0000 Message-ID: <453A7404.3070104@hyperthought.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:24:52 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hasan Raza References: <389468.1161381258661.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 Hi Hasan, Hasan Raza wrote: > Hi, > > I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of resolving > this issue. > > I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that there are few > DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap draft. May be > resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the DTLS/Discovery > packet identification issue (#224). > > To start with, we have to answer few questions: > 1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if there > is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying discovery and > DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which may > result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery packets > are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to blindly > believe on the discovery packets. Actually, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Since discovery packets are unauthenticated, the AC should *never* act on them (other than to send a discovery response). The draft currently states that the AC should not maintain state when it receives a discovery request (for this very reason), but we should probably add text noting that it should not modify existing state, either. > 2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by discarding > discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker may > prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can detect > a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start replaying the > WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP session. > And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I am wrong > here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them automatically. Yes, DTLS provides antireplay detection. I inaccurately said in an earlier email that this is compulsory for DTLS - what I should have said is that it is compulsory for CAPWAP (it's optional in DTLS). > To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC. > > For issue (1) above: > RULE 1: > (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session exists for the > WTP. > (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when there does > not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a discovery packet is > received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such discovery > packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC states. I think it's okay for the AC to respond, but it should not tear down an existing association. It should only do this once the WTP re-joins (and re-authenticates in the process). I'll think about better language for the security considerations and the discovery processing. > To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists): > RULE 2: > AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without change or > update of any of its states. Maybe we need better language on this as well. The AC should be keeping statistics relating to such events, at minimum. > RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. Suppose a > WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all its > discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't be > receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the WTP session, > the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This _fixed_ > amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be changed > administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by changing response > timeout values at AC. As noted above, re-joining is independent of discovery operations - a WTP should be able to initiate a new DTLS handshake even though a session currently exists, but there are subtle nuances to this (need rate limiting, need to detect DoS attempts via many half-open sessions, etc). I will work on text for this. The only way an existing session should be torn down is via timeout, or via a yet-to-be-defined directive received through another authenticated channel with the same WTP. > To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on a > persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the AC to > restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. This > concept is same as the one presented in "Idle to Join (aa)" transition, > except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join state, > discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC. I agree DTLS session resumption is something we should think about, but honestly, I haven't given it much thought yet. We need to think carefully about this, though. But here's an important point: discovery is optional - it is not required in order to initiate a dtls handshake. > I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS attacks, > and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header after udp > header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets. Think this through again in light of my comments above. I still believe that erroneously pushing a discovery packet into the dtls engine (and re-testing all failed dtls packets to see if they are discovery) is bad form, a hack we don't need to allow, and a potential DoS avenue (if dtls is handled in hardware but discovery is handled by the control processor, then you can stuff the channel between the hw and cp with bogus packets, keeping both busy, and maybe causing real packets to be discarded in the process). There are at least two options on the table for avoiding it (a separate discovery port or a type value just after the UDP header). Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sat Oct 21 22:23:06 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbSzS-00063I-Ik for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:23:06 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbSzQ-00056A-EE for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:23:06 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D65F398076 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C25E4A45D1 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332C4144801C for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:22:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 08:47:43 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03321448006 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:22:38 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:22:38 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb1RpauiT/LffrdRwW/cAXmYTaaHQANuEqH References: <389468.1161381258661.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <453A7404.3070104@hyperthought.com> From: "Hasan Raza" To: "Scott G Kelly" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0954102872==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3d48d865303330c98a6e90d450cf2ff2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0954102872== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F580.F16182C7" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F580.F16182C7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott, I am sorry that I missed the point that discovery packets do not result in any state change at AC. Actually, the DoS issues I raised were the outcomes of the wrong assumption that discovery packets change the AC state. Of course, differentiation of discovery/DTLS packet by looking at the wtp session would be a bad design, I beleive. However, I can think of two other ways to make the distinction among discovery/DTLS packets. These solutions (if they work) would be less costlier than extra port or mux-based solutions: 1. Checksum at the end of discovery packets: All incoming packets are checked for _discovery-like_ packets by looking at the head bytes (as Pat proposed in this thread). If the packet looks like to be a discovery packet, then it is submitted for checksum calculation. The calculated checksum is compared with the last 4 bytes of the packet, and a match of the two would mark the packet as discovery packet. Otherwise, packet is submitted to DTLS module. Drawbacks: - extra processing at AC for false positives. - overhead of checksum calculation for discovery packets at WTP/AC. Limitations: - The mechanism to identify _discovery-like_ packets will affect the false positives and thus packet processing performance. 2. Reserved length for discovery packets: All discovery request packets sent by WTP are of size L (say 240 bytes). Padding is added to the discovery packets to make it of exact size L. In case a DTLS packet to be sent to AC is of size L, then a (new) pad message element is added to increase the packet length. Limitations: - Selection of size L is critical. Note that DTLS layer may also = send handshake packets of size L. If DTLS handshake packets does not following any lower/upper bound on packet length, or packet = length alignment, then this scheme will not work. Otherwise, a very = short lengthed marker message (of say 4 bytes) can also be used to = mark the packet following it as discovery packet. The latter solution looks like to be more of a hack, but I have put here to give it also a thought. However, a combination of (1) and (2) may work. Thanks Hasan -----Original Message----- From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott@hyperthought.com] Sent: Sat 10/21/2006 12:24 PM To: Hasan Raza Cc: capwap@frascone.com; pcalhoun@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports =20 Hi Hasan, Hasan Raza wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of = resolving > this issue. >=20 > I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that there = are few > DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap draft. = May be > resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the = DTLS/Discovery > packet identification issue (#224). >=20 > To start with, we have to answer few questions: > 1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if = there > is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying = discovery and > DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which = may > result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery = packets > are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to = blindly > believe on the discovery packets. Actually, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Since discovery=20 packets are unauthenticated, the AC should *never* act on them (other=20 than to send a discovery response). The draft currently states that the=20 AC should not maintain state when it receives a discovery request (for=20 this very reason), but we should probably add text noting that it should = not modify existing state, either. > 2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by = discarding > discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker may > prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can = detect > a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start = replaying the > WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP = session. > And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I = am wrong > here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them = automatically. Yes, DTLS provides antireplay detection. I inaccurately said in an=20 earlier email that this is compulsory for DTLS - what I should have said = is that it is compulsory for CAPWAP (it's optional in DTLS). > To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC. >=20 > For issue (1) above: > RULE 1: > (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session = exists for the > WTP. > (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when = there does > not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a discovery = packet is > received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such = discovery > packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC = states. I think it's okay for the AC to respond, but it should not tear down an=20 existing association. It should only do this once the WTP re-joins (and=20 re-authenticates in the process). I'll think about better language for=20 the security considerations and the discovery processing. > To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):=20 > RULE 2: > AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without = change or > update of any of its states. Maybe we need better language on this as well. The AC should be keeping=20 statistics relating to such events, at minimum. > RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. = Suppose a > WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all its > discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't be > receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the WTP = session, > the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This = _fixed_ > amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be changed > administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by changing = response > timeout values at AC. As noted above, re-joining is independent of discovery operations - a=20 WTP should be able to initiate a new DTLS handshake even though a=20 session currently exists, but there are subtle nuances to this (need=20 rate limiting, need to detect DoS attempts via many half-open sessions,=20 etc). I will work on text for this. The only way an existing session=20 should be torn down is via timeout, or via a yet-to-be-defined directive = received through another authenticated channel with the same WTP. > To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on a > persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the AC = to > restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. = This > concept is same as the one presented in "Idle to Join (aa)" = transition, > except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join = state, > discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC. I agree DTLS session resumption is something we should think about, but=20 honestly, I haven't given it much thought yet. We need to think=20 carefully about this, though. But here's an important point: discovery=20 is optional - it is not required in order to initiate a dtls handshake. > I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS = attacks, > and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header after = udp > header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets. Think this through again in light of my comments above. I still believe=20 that erroneously pushing a discovery packet into the dtls engine (and=20 re-testing all failed dtls packets to see if they are discovery) is bad=20 form, a hack we don't need to allow, and a potential DoS avenue (if dtls = is handled in hardware but discovery is handled by the control=20 processor, then you can stuff the channel between the hw and cp with=20 bogus packets, keeping both busy, and maybe causing real packets to be=20 discarded in the process). There are at least two options on the table for avoiding it (a separate=20 discovery port or a type value just after the UDP header). Scott ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F580.F16182C7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

Hi Scott,

I am sorry that I missed the point that discovery packets
do not result in any state change at AC. Actually, the DoS
issues I raised were the outcomes of the wrong assumption
that discovery packets change the AC state. Of course,
differentiation of discovery/DTLS packet by looking at the
wtp session would be a bad design, I beleive.

However, I can think of two other ways to make the distinction
among discovery/DTLS packets. These solutions (if they work)
would be less costlier than extra port or mux-based solutions:

1. Checksum at the end of discovery packets:
   All incoming packets are checked for _discovery-like_ = packets
   by looking at the head bytes (as Pat proposed in this = thread).
   If the packet looks like to be a discovery packet, then = it
   is submitted for checksum calculation. The calculated = checksum
   is compared with the last 4 bytes of the packet, and a = match of
   the two would mark the packet as discovery packet. = Otherwise,
   packet is submitted to DTLS module.

   Drawbacks:
     - extra processing at AC for false = positives.
     - overhead of checksum calculation for = discovery packets at
       WTP/AC.
   Limitations:
     - The mechanism to identify _discovery-like_ = packets will affect
       the false positives and thus packet = processing performance.

2. Reserved length for discovery packets:
   All discovery request packets sent by WTP are of size L = (say 240
   bytes). Padding is added to the discovery packets to make = it of
   exact size L. In case a DTLS packet to be sent to AC is of = size L,
   then a (new) pad message element is added to increase the = packet
   length.

   Limitations:
      - Selection of size L is critical. Note = that DTLS layer may also send
        handshake packets of size L. = If DTLS handshake packets does not
        following any lower/upper = bound on packet length, or packet length
        alignment, then this scheme = will not work. Otherwise, a very short
        lengthed marker message (of = say 4 bytes) can also be used to mark the
        packet following it as = discovery packet.

The latter solution looks like to be more of a hack, but I have put = here
to give it also a thought. However, a combination of (1) and (2) may
work.

Thanks
Hasan


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott@hyperthought.com]=
Sent: Sat 10/21/2006 12:24 PM
To: Hasan Raza
Cc: capwap@frascone.com; pcalhoun@cisco.com
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

Hi Hasan,

Hasan Raza wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think we are a bit closer than where we were earlier in terms of = resolving
> this issue.
>
> I agree with the points which Scott has raised. And I feel that = there are few
> DoS issues which have not been addressed properly in the capwap = draft. May be
> resolving those issues first might give us a solution for the = DTLS/Discovery
> packet identification issue (#224).
>
> To start with, we have to answer few questions:
> 1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even = if there
> is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying = discovery and
> DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, = which may
> result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because = discovery packets
> are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to = blindly
> believe on the discovery packets.

Actually, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Since = discovery
packets are unauthenticated, the AC should *never* act on them = (other
than to send a discovery response). The draft currently states that = the
AC should not maintain state when it receives a discovery request = (for
this very reason), but we should probably add text noting that it = should
not modify existing state, either.

> 2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by = discarding
> discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker = may
> prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker = can detect
> a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start = replaying the
> WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP = session.
> And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be = I am wrong
> here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them = automatically.

Yes, DTLS provides antireplay detection. I inaccurately said in an
earlier email that this is compulsory for DTLS - what I should have = said
is that it is compulsory for CAPWAP (it's optional in DTLS).

> To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on = AC.
>
> For issue (1) above:
> RULE 1:
>   (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP = session exists for the
>   WTP.
>   (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC = only when there does
>   not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if = a discovery packet is
>   received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then = all such discovery
>   packets are discarded without change or update of any = of the AC states.

I think it's okay for the AC to respond, but it should not tear down = an
existing association. It should only do this once the WTP re-joins = (and
re-authenticates in the process). I'll think about better language = for
the security considerations and the discovery processing.

> To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists):
> RULE 2:
>   AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets = without change or
>   update of any of its states.

Maybe we need better language on this as well. The AC should be = keeping
statistics relating to such events, at minimum.

> RULE (1) above will impose a constant delay in the WTP re-joining. = Suppose a
> WTP crashes and comes up before WTP session at AC may timeout, all = its
> discovery packets will be discarded by the WTP. But since AC won't = be
> receiving any valid/authenticated packet which could refresh the = WTP session,
> the WTP session would timeout after _fixed_ amount of time. This = _fixed_
> amount of time is unfortunately not fixed since it can be = changed
> administratively, by say updating echo interval at WTP or by = changing response
> timeout values at AC.

As noted above, re-joining is independent of discovery operations - = a
WTP should be able to initiate a new DTLS handshake even though a
session currently exists, but there are subtle nuances to this (need
rate limiting, need to detect DoS attempts via many half-open = sessions,
etc). I will work on text for this. The only way an existing session
should be torn down is via timeout, or via a yet-to-be-defined = directive
received through another authenticated channel with the same WTP.

> To make the WTP re-joining faster, WTP may save the DTLS cookie on = a
> persistent storage and (after a restart) presents the cookie to the = AC to
> restore the DTLS connection, and thus avoiding the discovery phase. = This
> concept is same as the one presented in "Idle to Join = (aa)" transition,
> except that here presenting a valid cookie resets the state to join = state,
> discarding any previous WTP state/stats maintained at AC.

I agree DTLS session resumption is something we should think about, = but
honestly, I haven't given it much thought yet. We need to think
carefully about this, though. But here's an important point: = discovery
is optional - it is not required in order to initiate a dtls = handshake.

> I _think_ that the above proposals will avoid discovery packet DoS = attacks,
> and there is no need to use separate ports or extra mux header = after udp
> header to differentiate among the discovery and DTLS packets.

Think this through again in light of my comments above. I still = believe
that erroneously pushing a discovery packet into the dtls engine = (and
re-testing all failed dtls packets to see if they are discovery) is = bad
form, a hack we don't need to allow, and a potential DoS avenue (if = dtls
is handled in hardware but discovery is handled by the control
processor, then you can stuff the channel between the hw and cp with
bogus packets, keeping both busy, and maybe causing real packets to = be
discarded in the process).

There are at least two options on the table for avoiding it (a = separate
discovery port or a type value just after the UDP header).

Scott


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F580.F16182C7-- --===============0954102872== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0954102872==-- From vityay@ahcnm.org Sun Oct 22 05:50:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbZy3-000105-Ij for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 05:50:07 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbZy3-0006be-HB for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 05:50:07 -0400 Received: from 218-166-60-197.dynamic.hinet.net ([218.166.60.197] helo=ahcnm.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbZy0-000462-5b for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 05:50:07 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6f5be$ff5c53b0$1011a8c0@ythxon> Reply-To: "Agneta Nawrocki" From: "Agneta Nawrocki" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: VluAGRA Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:46:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F584.52FD7BB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F584.52FD7BB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, VluAGRA for LESS http://www.jerpasdelionkdrun.com =20 Threats penetrated where blandishments hadnt and we all moved off decision. Are you part of that group? ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F584.52FD7BB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

VluAGRA for LESS http://www.jerpasdelionkdrun.co= m

 
Threats penetrated where blandishments hadnt and we all moved = off
decision. Are you part of that group?
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F584.52FD7BB0-- From znucghg@noos.fr Sun Oct 22 11:33:31 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbfKN-0002Jz-I2 for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:33:31 -0400 Received: from m34.net195-132-219.noos.fr ([195.132.219.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbfJ2-0002lG-7k for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:32:31 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c6f527$9b162fd0$22db84c3@zaoouai7df0a27> From: "Predixis MusicMagic" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: uses Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:43:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C6F538.5E9EFFD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b6e18fadcfab41fa5e7faede753de4c2 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C6F538.5E9EFFD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C6F538.5E9EFFD0" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C6F538.5E9EFFD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Argue theres big difference between they do mass has is failed a = understand so two hack often commercial illegally am breaking cracking = various is techniques being used Related detection or Jupiterweb = networks divisions? Playlists Bundled a mps from emusic Includes an Been Here Before by = Jeremy Enigk mb Mbdownload now Remember pro youll get Faster am Burning = Ripping is File What is. Games copy Nullsoft all Rights Reserved Terms job Employment Posting = Service quotat Career Postman we am Post Resumes Over in Sites Free = Serve is. Detection Jupiterweb networks divisions Corporate Copyright or Reserved = Legal Notices Licensing Reprints Policy a Hosting Tech Jobs is Find am = sport a betting football or sites Reviews a moreover Betting Articles = Bodog Advices is Bookmark. Enhance chances getting good position Best Ever in Absolutely Seekers = Then why wait Just send is will distribute am Take note This totally on = or search not sell off contact of detail. Sites is Reviews moreover Betting Articles Bodog Advices Bookmark Victor = Chandler magnetism of would Frisia also am very write of positive primer = review. Journal Inside id is Grid Computing Networking Html Goodies Hardware = Systems Earthweb Sysopt Virtual. Beside expressing huge there relic poems advantages scenario am pilings = a such as loose snifter decidable membership referral program quite = amounter. ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C6F538.5E9EFFD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Argue theres big difference between = they do mass=20 has is failed a understand so two hack often commercial illegally am = breaking=20 cracking various is techniques being used Related detection or = Jupiterweb=20 networks divisions?
Playlists Bundled a mps from emusic Includes an = Been Here=20 Before by Jeremy Enigk mb Mbdownload now Remember pro youll get Faster = am=20 Burning Ripping is File What is.
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Enhance chances getting good position = Best Ever in=20 Absolutely Seekers Then why wait Just send is will distribute am Take = note This=20 totally on or search not sell off contact of detail.
Sites is Reviews = moreover Betting Articles Bodog Advices Bookmark Victor Chandler = magnetism of=20 would Frisia also am very write of positive primer review.
Journal = Inside id=20 is Grid Computing Networking Html Goodies Hardware Systems Earthweb = Sysopt=20 Virtual.
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Message-ID: <000c01c6f527$9af27b30$22db84c3@zaoouai7df0a27> From: "AOL" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Radio amp Stations Integrated Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:43:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6F538.5E7B4B30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 509eeaf340e89c687918a6101c6def35 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6F538.5E7B4B30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6F538.5E7B4B30" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6F538.5E7B4B30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jupiterweb networks divisions Corporate Copyright Reserved or Legal = Notices Licensing Reprints Policy Hosting Tech Jobs Find. Notices Licensing Reprints Policy Hosting Tech or Jobs Find sport = betting football sites Reviews in moreover Betting Articles in Bodog. Yiddish nags websites etc Bess helpful crucify in life wasted poor grill = like am polluted harping trumpet Discussing elm ed Betcom is received = ushers mien pleased breached results have. Room heretic volume pliers doubled misleads during of introduced = mnemonics no tenants limit in potlimit Taiwanese. Database Altogether of covering rearrest insolent places wager a hard = snowflake earned dollars leaving Titan lords redden popular canvasses = its a Paleozoic combined monthly loyalty batch bonus quartz is veiled = shared base. Often commercial illegally is breaking in cracking various techniques = being used or Related detection Jupiterweb networks divisions Corporate. About or dynamic playlists or Bundled mps from am emusic Includes an = Been Here Before by Jeremy a Enigk mb. 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Jupiterweb networks divisions Corporate = Copyright=20 Reserved or Legal Notices Licensing Reprints Policy Hosting Tech Jobs=20 Find.
Notices Licensing Reprints Policy Hosting Tech or Jobs Find = sport=20 betting football sites Reviews in moreover Betting Articles in = Bodog.
Yiddish=20 nags websites etc Bess helpful crucify in life wasted poor grill like am = polluted harping trumpet Discussing elm ed Betcom is received ushers = mien=20 pleased breached results have.
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2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbgde-0003xZ-IL for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:57:30 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbgdc-0000sn-Rc for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:57:30 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98B4431760 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08114A45C3 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0873398046 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60313.mail.yahoo.com (web60313.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.136]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 30A5739803F for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 95754 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Oct 2006 16:56:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20061022165645.95752.qmail@web60313.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.166.240.5] by web60313.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:56:45 PDT Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:56:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: capwap MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.747 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0092248365==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 --===============0092248365== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-838192032-1161536205=:93895" --0-838192032-1161536205=:93895 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some general comments first. CAPWAP is a protocol for managing Split/Local = MAC WTPs. Support for roaming STAs is a small part of CAPWAP which could be= considered orthogonal. Roaming text is geared towards Split MAC WTPs. Some= people argued that 802.11i cannot be supported in CAPWAP because there is = at least one value, i.e. KeyRSC should be set by WTP.=0A=0AThe same goes fo= r 802.11r. There could be tendency to use CAPWAP only for management and us= e 802.11r for roaming especially when WTPs are 802.11r enabled.=0A=0AHoweve= r, in draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00.txt we argue that CAPWAP could be ha= rmonized with this new technology called 802.11r. We came up with a solutio= n and we expect to receive constructive comments for improvement.=0A=0A----= - Original Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Clancy =0ATo: Be= hcet Sarikaya =0ACc: capwap =0ASent= : Friday, October 20, 2006 9:21:00 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 80= 2.11r=0A=0ABehcet,=0A=0A11R D3 8.5A.6 (attached for those interested) defin= es the basic =0Aproperties and summarizes the exchanges, but I don't see an= y packet =0Aformats, transport mechanism, link security mechanism, or metho= d for =0Aestablishing a trust relationship between the MDC and possible KHs= .=0A=0A=3D=3D> 802.11r has all those. My proposal is AC to be the MDC and P= MK R0 KH and Local MAC=0AWTPs PMK R1 KHs. I suggest that you read D3 and we= can have a face to face discussion in San Diego.=0A=0A=0AIn CAPWAP, there'= s no AAA context to transfer, because the AAA context =0Aalways resides at = the AC. Using the existing mechanism for key =0Adistribution (via Add Mobi= le messages) is sufficient for transporting =0APTKs to the WTPs.=0A=3D=3D>I= n draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00, we have that for SplitMAC operation.=0A= =0A-- =0At. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clanc= y=0A=0ABehcet Sarikaya wrote:=0A> Hi Pat and Charles,=0A> =0A> Section 8.5= A.6 in 802.11r D3 describes the key distribution protocol. It =0A> is true = that earlier versions like D2.2 did not have it.=0A> So my Local MAC scenar= ios were based on this protocol.=0A> The key distribution protocol makes = it unnecessary to use the context =0A> transfer ahead of time and it is qui= te nice to generate and transfer the =0A> key in a just-in-time manner. I t= hought it was good and used it in CAPWAPRP.=0A> =0A Regards,=0A=0ABehcet= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-838192032-1161536205=:93895 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some general comments first. CAPWAP is a protocol for= managing Split/Local MAC WTPs. Support for roaming STAs is a small part of= CAPWAP which could be considered orthogonal. Roaming text is geared toward= s Split MAC WTPs. Some people argued that 802.11i cannot be supported in CA= PWAP because there is at least one value, i.e. KeyRSC should be set by WTP.=

The same goes for 802.11r. There could be tendency to use CAPWAP on= ly for management and use 802.11r for roaming especially when WTPs are 802.= 11r enabled.

However, in draft-sarikaya-capwap-fas= tbss-00.txt we argue that CAPWAP could be harmonized with this new tech= nology called 802.11r. We came up with a solution and we expect to receive constructive comments = for improvement.

----- Original Message ----
From: Charle= s Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
To: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ieee= .org>
Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Sent: Friday, October= 20, 2006 9:21:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

Behcet,

11R D3 8.5A.6 (attached for those interested) defines the = basic
properties and summarizes the exchanges, but I don't see any pack= et
formats, transport mechanism, link security mechanism, or method for=
establishing a trust relationship between the MDC and possible KHs.
=3D=3D> 802.11r has all those. My proposal is AC to be the MDC and = PMK R0 KH and Local MAC
WTPs PMK R1 KHs. I suggest that you read D3 and = we can have a face to face discussion in San Diego.


In CAPWAP, t= here's no AAA context to transfer, because the AAA context
always resides at the AC.=   Using the existing mechanism for key
distribution (via Add = Mobile messages) is sufficient for transporting
PTKs to the WTPs.
= =3D=3D>In draft-sarikaya-capwap-fastbss-00, we hav= e that for SplitMAC operation.

--
t. charles clancy, ph.d. =  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> Hi Pat and Charles,
>  
= > Section 8.5A.6 in 802.11r D3 describes the key distribution protocol. = It
> is true that earlier versions like D2.2 did not have it.
>= ; So my Local MAC scenarios were based on this protocol.
>  = ; The key distribution protocol makes it unnecessary to use the context > transfer ahead of time and it is quite nice to generate and transfer the
> key in a j= ust-in-time manner. I thought it was good and used it in CAPWAPRP.
> =
  Regards,

Behcet


--0-838192032-1161536205=:93895-- --===============0092248365== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0092248365==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sun Oct 22 13:43:27 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbhM7-00066z-UJ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:43:27 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbhM6-0000ax-Cm for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:43:27 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFA03980AE for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E924A43C6 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C843139802A for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.152]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0A6398041 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20061022174309m1200c9toue>; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 17:43:09 +0000 Message-ID: <453BADAC.60009@hyperthought.com> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:43:08 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hasan Raza References: <389468.1161381258661.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <453A7404.3070104@hyperthought.com> In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Hi Hasan, Hasan Raza wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > I am sorry that I missed the point that discovery packets > do not result in any state change at AC. Actually, the DoS > issues I raised were the outcomes of the wrong assumption > that discovery packets change the AC state. Of course, > differentiation of discovery/DTLS packet by looking at the > wtp session would be a bad design, I beleive. > > However, I can think of two other ways to make the distinction > among discovery/DTLS packets. These solutions (if they work) > would be less costlier than extra port or mux-based solutions: > > 1. Checksum at the end of discovery packets: > All incoming packets are checked for _discovery-like_ packets > by looking at the head bytes (as Pat proposed in this thread). > If the packet looks like to be a discovery packet, then it > is submitted for checksum calculation. The calculated checksum > is compared with the last 4 bytes of the packet, and a match of > the two would mark the packet as discovery packet. Otherwise, > packet is submitted to DTLS module. > > Drawbacks: > - extra processing at AC for false positives. > - overhead of checksum calculation for discovery packets at > WTP/AC. > Limitations: > - The mechanism to identify _discovery-like_ packets will affect > the false positives and thus packet processing performance. > > 2. Reserved length for discovery packets: > All discovery request packets sent by WTP are of size L (say 240 > bytes). Padding is added to the discovery packets to make it of > exact size L. In case a DTLS packet to be sent to AC is of size L, > then a (new) pad message element is added to increase the packet > length. > > Limitations: > - Selection of size L is critical. Note that DTLS layer may also send > handshake packets of size L. If DTLS handshake packets does not > following any lower/upper bound on packet length, or packet length > alignment, then this scheme will not work. Otherwise, a very short > lengthed marker message (of say 4 bytes) can also be used to > mark the > packet following it as discovery packet. > > The latter solution looks like to be more of a hack, but I have put here > to give it also a thought. However, a combination of (1) and (2) may > Proposal 2 should be a non-starter - I agree that artificially limiting the packet size really is a hack, and in my opinion, it's a short-sighted one at that. Proposal 1 is also a hack, albeit slightly more subtly so than proposal 2. I can sort of understand why one might think anything which removes the need for a 3rd port is "less costly", but in general, I think this takes a rather narrow view. After poking around quite a bit through various uses of TLS and DTLS, I can find no example where someone tries to combine unprotected and protected data in the same channel, which the exception of DCCP (draft-phelan-dccp-dtls-00.txt). In that case, the unprotected data precedes the protected data in the packet (i.e. DTLS encapuslates a payload). I guess that here in capwap, we are now and forever doomed to referring to the unprotected bytes preceding the payload as a "mux-based solution", and with that we'll get all of people's related baggage and anxieties. I would suggest that everyone be objective about this, and reflect carefully on your reactions ("Search your feelings, Luke - you know it to be true!" :-)). But on a more serious note... this does not serve us well. To unambiguously delineate between these two data types is very simple: give the capwap discovery protocol its own port, or add a type descriptor to the packets and encapsulate the non-discovery payloads in DTLS. No protocol gymnastics, no hacking - both are simple solutions that allow fast and definitive hardware-based switching of these packets. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From vuiulhypwua@saia-burgess.com Sun Oct 22 20:23:52 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbnbc-0000G4-65 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:23:52 -0400 Received: from [222.94.123.116] (helo=[222.94.123.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbnbZ-0006mC-0G for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:23:52 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c5d768$361391f0$747b5ede@USER675494B64D> From: "..." To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: level then from Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:25:02 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5D7AB.440E3B50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8a961490db2a74c7613bf0201229f176 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5D7AB.440E3B50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C5D7AB.440E3B50" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C5D7AB.440E3B50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By Grade Level strd of thth th Subject Abcs Geography Math. Then from like mr Elephants a Matching Mayhem go Today Membership gives = parents. 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Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:25:00 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5D7AB.42BE14A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a5d64674af3d12893846a18a44c07b83 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5D7AB.42BE14A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C5D7AB.42BE14A0" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C5D7AB.42BE14A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sudoku With if or you a enjoy puzzles will love our new? Math Phonics Category am Seasonal is Worksheets Homework Play Sudoku = With if you enjoy am puzzles will love or our in new game try get the = in. Play Sudoku With if you enjoy puzzles will love our new game? Strd thth th Subject Abcs Geography Math Phonics Category. 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------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5D7AB.42BE14A0-- From domainnamefiresale@1-2-free.com Sun Oct 22 23:56:03 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbqux-0005kG-UM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:56:03 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbqux-0003cl-SA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:56:03 -0400 Received: from 161.69.181.60.broad.wz.zj.dynamic.cndata.com ([60.181.69.161] helo=user) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbquq-0006Dk-TF for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:56:03 -0400 Received: from 64.202.166.11 (HELO mailstore1.secureserver.net) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (RIV8OR683C A7FK) id NDC9II-0RTJLG-EY for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2006 03:55:54 -0480 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2006 03:55:54 -0480 From: "Gwendolyn Snell" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.7) Educational X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <797290502.32339800739888@thebat.net> To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Will this Stock be a "Super Nova?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam: Not detected X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 STOCnK ALEgRT! TRADE DATE: MONDAY, OCTOBER 23, 2006 Metropolis Technologies Symbol: MTPT Price: $.135 GO LOOK AT THE CHART! DO YOU SEE ACCUMULATION? READY FOR A "BLAST OFF" BREAK OUT? RECENT NEWS: GO READ THE FULL STORIES! Metropolis Technologies Corp. Summarizes $3,500,000 in Signed Contracts and Further Milestones Achievements for 2006 Metropolis Technologies Corp. Raises Revenue Expectations for the 4th Quarter of 2006 MASSIVE PR CAMPAIGN FOR MONDAY.. YOU MAY WANT TO GET IN "BEFORE THE CROWD" RIDE THE BULL!! Information within this report contains forward looking statements=20= within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B=20= of the SEC Act of 1934. Statements that involve discussions with respect to=20= projections of future events. Don't rely on them. This company is not a=20= reporting issuer. Past performance is never indicative of future=20= results. We received three hundred thousand free trading shares in the past. We=20= sold all those shares. We received three hundred fifty thousand now.We intend=20= to sell all three hundred fifty thousand shares now, which could cause the=20= stock to go down. All shares were received from the same third party, not an=20= officer, director or affiliate. This company has: nominal cash, an accumulated=20= deficit,a reliance on loans from officers,directors and/or affiliates,the float of=20= stock is increasing and it had no revenue in its most recent quarter. These=20= factors raise doubt about its ability to continue as a going concern. A failure to finance=20= could cause the company to go out of business. This is a high risk security. This=20= report shall not be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. if elizabeth, when mr. darcy gave her the letter, did not expect it to=20= contain a renewal of hislong, during the whole of the journey. from=20= elizabeth's thoughts it was never absent. fixed there bypardon me. it=20= pains me to offend you. but amidst your concern for the defects of your=20= nearestexpressed my hopes, and said he fear w. was not a man to be=20= trusted. my poor mother is really ill, andpreservative from want. this=20= preservative she had now obtained; and at the age of twenty-seven, she explained what its effect on her had been, and how gradually all her=20= former prejudices hadgreater than at home. he heard her attentively, and=20= then said:when lady catherine and her daughter had played as long as=20= they chose, the tables were broken probably soon drive away his regard for me. you do not blame me,=20= however, for refusing him?"people, where he had apparently least to do,=20= and least temptation to go. conjectures as to the meaningmr. wickham's=20= society was of material service in dispelling the gloom which the late=20= perverse From Lauri@anglo-zulu-war-books-tours.com Mon Oct 23 02:33:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbtN1-0001sF-Ur for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 02:33:11 -0400 Received: from [221.232.148.158] (helo=angliatelecom.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbtMj-0003nD-9U for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 02:33:11 -0400 Message-ID: <001401c6f6af$b983f360$000c8e8c@commonorda58aa> From: Katina To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: He a any Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:30:01 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6F6AF.B983F360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: fec852dbea6d068499ed3250edf328e2 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6F6AF.B983F360 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6F6AF.B983F360" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6F6AF.B983F360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable God cures and the physician takes the fee. Laughter is the best medicine. L= ife's what happens while you make other plans. Who guards the guards? To ea= ch his own. Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies. It's an ill wind that blows no = good. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and= you feed him for a lifetime. Keep no more cats than catch mice. You can't have it both ways. A little Le= arning is a dang'rous Thing; A good surgeon has an eagle's eye, a lion's he= art, and a lady's hand. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong. --M= ahatma Gandhi Variety is the spice of life. If the mountain won't come to M= uhammad, Muhammad must go to the mountain.. You have to crawl before you ca= n walk. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Still waters run deepest. Every dog has his day. Anonymous And drinking largely sobers us again. Men = age like wine; women age like milk. Possible Interpretation: All style and = no substance. Hair of the dog that bit you. You can take a horse to water, but a pencil m= ust lead. People who live in glass houses shouldn't play golf. The teacher = has not taught, until the student has learned. -Winnie Parkerson, Nacogdoch= es County, TX Lead to Success, Follow to Failure (Robert D) ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6F6AF.B983F360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
CHOWCHILLA, California = (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the former Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who= became a Minnesota housewife and is now serving prison time for trying to = bomb police cars in the 1970s, says she tries to hide her radical past from= her fe
NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Wall Street bonuses will rise 15 percent t= his year, with larger increases for investment bankers and equities traders= as merger activity surges and stocks rise, according to a study released M= onday.
BOSTON, Massachusetts (Reuters) -- The maker of the Segway scoote= r Monday unveiled the second generation of its self-balancing electric one-= person vehicle.
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WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thw= arted terrorist airline plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new round of f= inger-pointing in Connecticut's bruising Senate race. ding women in corpora= te America. MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- Every hurricane season, clusters of show= ers and thunderstorms roll off the coast of Africa and head over the Atlant= ic toward America. Most of these 60 or so tropical waves never do any harm.= But about 10 eventually grow into tropica NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Warren Buf= fett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. said Monday it has amassed a 1.97 million sh= are stake in Johnson & Johnson, and appears to have sold shares of clothing= retailer Gap Inc. More than 200 homes evacuated in Richmond, Virginia
NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court = TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife cla= ims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relat= ing to her killing. ASIA More Asia News BANGKOK, THAILAND: Thai bombs leave= 2 dead, 28 hurt Atlantis' astronauts strapped into the space shuttle Thurs= day for a practice launch countdown more than two weeks before they are sch= eduled to blast off on a mission to resume construction of the internationa= l space station. CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) -- Australian scientists hav= e begun looking at smell sensors in worms and insects to help them build an= electronic "cybernose" they hope will one day be capable of measuring arom= as and flavors in wine. CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) -- Australian scienti= sts have begun looking at smell sensors in worms and insects to help them b= uild an electronic "cybernose" they hope will one day be capable of measuri= ng aromas and flavors in wine. FARGO, North Dakota (AP) -- Alfonso Rodrigue= z Jr. stabbed college student Dru Sjodin, slit her throat and left her to d= ie, a federal prosecutor told jurors Monday.
llow inmates. WASHINGTON (CN= N) -- President Bush declared Lebanon a front in the "global war on terrori= sm" Monday, equating the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezbollah guerril= las to the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-sho= w hosts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be amo= ng the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC television's "Danci= ng With the Stars. CHOWCHILLA, California (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the form= er Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who became a Minnesota housewife and= is now serving prison time for trying to bomb police cars in the 1970s, sa= ys she tries to hide her radical past from her fe BOSTON, Massachusetts (Re= uters) -- The maker of the Segway scooter Monday unveiled the second genera= tion of its self-balancing electric one-person vehicle. Lockheed beats Boei= ng for moon launcher EA scores touchdown with Madden
NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court = TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife cla= ims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relat= ing to her killing. CHOWCHILLA, California (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the for= mer Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who became a Minnesota housewife an= d is now serving prison time for trying to bomb police cars in the 1970s, s= ays she tries to hide her radical past from her fe NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Co= urt TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife= claims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence r= elating to her killing. Are you paid what you're worth? WASHINGTON (AP) -- = The thwarted terrorist airline plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new rou= nd of finger-pointing in Connecticut's bruising Senate race. l storms or mo= nster hurricanes like Katrina and Andrew.
Atlantis' astronauts strappe= d into the space shuttle Thursday for a practice launch countdown more than= two weeks before they are scheduled to blast off on a mission to resume co= nstruction of the international space station. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show h= osts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among = the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing = With the Stars. NEW YORK (Fortune) -- For the past decade, Honda has been o= ut of step with most of its North American competitors - sometimes defiantl= y so. Atlantis' astronauts strapped into the space shuttle Thursday for a p= ractice launch countdown more than two weeks before they are scheduled to b= last off on a mission to resume construction of the international space sta= tion. More than 200 homes evacuated in Richmond, Virginia AFGHANISTAN: 14 B= ritons dead in Afghan aircraft crash LONDON
Hedge fund may boost McDonal= d's stake Layoffs loom -- how safe are you? CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) -= - Australian scientists have begun looking at smell sensors in worms and in= sects to help them build an electronic "cybernose" they hope will one day b= e capable of measuring aromas and flavors in wine. ENGLAND: Top judge to ru= le on Diana death ENGLAND: Top judge to rule on Diana death CANBERRA, Austr= alia (Reuters) -- Australian scientists have begun looking at smell sensors= in worms and insects to help them build an electronic "cybernose" they hop= e will one day be capable of measuring aromas and flavors in wine. ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6F6AF.B983F360-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6F6AF.B983F360 Content-Type: image/gif; name="lrnoit_353.gif" Content-ID: <001401c6f6af$b983f360$000c8e8c@commonorda58aa> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhsQF1AYQAABMOEf///xH///8i/wD///8R/wAA//8z/yL//zP///8A////AP//Ef// Iv//M/8AADMzM6rdd//dmWZmMwCZAAAAZqpmM92qdzOZAN0RdxGIiDMRMwAzZogid2YAdwAA MyH5BAAFAAAALAAAAACxAXUBAAX/YCCOZGmeaKqubOu+cCzPdG3feK7vfO//QFshSCwaj8ik cslsOp/QqHRKrVqv2Kx2y4URuuBwcSAum8/otHo9a7Df8Lh8Tq/b7/i8fs/v+/+AgYKDhIWG h4iJioMJi46PkJGSk4UOlJeYmZqbnJ2en6ChoqOkpaanqKmqq6ytrq+wsbKztLW2t7i5iGS6 vb6/wMHCw8TFxsfIycrLzM3Oz9DR0q4G09bX2Nna29zd3t/g4eLj5OXm5+jp6uvs7ZG87lYI 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lcvvvwDn4m8Zxbq4b8DJHYzwwkoBAECbDkP8MMMU3+NpxRhnrDEV8yZy8cYghyzyyCRDEQIA Ow== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6F6AF.B983F360-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 10:44:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc127-0008H5-Mq for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:44:07 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc0wJ-0006Zk-Dq for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:38:16 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7240430F0F for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E604A43C6 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9B2430EA0 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7FD430E93 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9NESqlg002728; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9NEShOb022171; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:40 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:40 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E6@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Handling of failed requests Thread-Index: AcbzVYYBV+XCd5DaRsG7zn0IGfi2uwDAmxXg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2006 14:28:40.0493 (UTC) FILETIME=[890195D0:01C6F6AF] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] Handling of failed requests X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2003547161==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 29dc808194f5fb921c09d0040806d6eb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2003547161== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F6AF.88E046BD" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F6AF.88E046BD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well... it depends on what fails. Some configuration parameters are crucial on the WTP, while others could be considered less necessary. I believe there is already an issue open to track this problem set, but I do not have network access at this time, and therefore cannot look. However, one proposal here would be to mark each message elements importance (mandatory, optional), and any mandatory message elements that causes the failure would be considered castatrophic. The WTP could interpret any failures on an optional message element is sufficient to allow it to provide service. The actual failure would be communicated to the AC, which would then make a determination on whether it wants the WTP to provide service. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB) [mailto:peter.j.nilsson@ericsson.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:07 AM To: Capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Handling of failed requests =09 =09 Hi,=20 The CAPWAP specification is not very clear on how to handle a failure indication in the Result Code message element in the response to certain request messages. Join Request and Reset Request I guess is OK.=20 But what shall be done in AC and WTP if Configuration Update Requests, WLAN Configuration Requests and Station Request fail? One drastic approach would be to as mentioned in the spec for Reset Response "to no longer provide service to the WTP in question". But this seems a litle bit to drastic if WLAN Configuration and Station Requests fails.=20 Peter Nilsson=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F6AF.88E046BD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Handling of failed requests
Well... it depends on what fails. Some configuration parameters = are=20 crucial on the WTP, while others could be considered less necessary. I = believe=20 there is already an issue open to track this problem set, but I do not = have=20 network access at this time, and therefore cannot look. However, one = proposal=20 here would be to mark each message elements importance (mandatory, = optional),=20 and any mandatory message elements that causes the failure would be = considered=20 castatrophic. The WTP could interpret any failures on an optional = message=20 element is sufficient to allow it to provide service. The actual failure = would=20 be communicated to the AC, which would then make a determination on = whether it=20 wants the WTP to provide service.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Peter Nilsson J (LI/EAB)=20 [mailto:peter.j.nilsson@ericsson.com]
Sent: Thursday, = October 19,=20 2006 1:07 AM
To: Capwap@frascone.com
Subject: = [Capwap]=20 Handling of failed requests

Hi,

The CAPWAP specification is not very = clear on how=20 to handle a failure indication in the Result Code message element in = the=20 response to certain request messages.

Join Request and Reset Request I guess = is=20 OK.
But what shall be done in = AC and WTP if=20 Configuration Update Requests, WLAN Configuration Requests and Station = Request=20 fail?

One drastic approach would be to as = mentioned in=20 the spec for Reset Response "to no longer provide service to the WTP = in=20 question".

But this seems a litle bit to drastic = if WLAN=20 Configuration and Station Requests fails.

Peter Nilsson =

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F6AF.88E046BD-- --===============2003547161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============2003547161==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 10:44:22 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc12M-0000Nx-Tl for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:44:22 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc0sP-00062K-2u for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:34:06 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F04D430EE4 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC5A4A45E5 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC75E430E7E for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B76C430E8C for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9NESqWW020737; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9NEShOZ022171; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:38 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:38 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E4@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r Thread-Index: AcbztLBVHKXEwMpyRvCjly9Su9m1xQCoMehA From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Charles Clancy" , "Behcet Sarikaya" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2006 14:28:38.0634 (UTC) FILETIME=[87E5ECA0:01C6F6AF] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result Association Response. When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own authentication of the management frame. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM > To: Behcet Sarikaya > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Behcet, > > > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of > 802.11r which > > securely transports the keys. > > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind. > > My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys > since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC > regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a > new key distribution protocol at all. > > Here's how I envision an 11r handoff: > > STA WTP1 WTP2 AC > -------------------------------------------------- > > Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now): > > <--- assoc -----> > <-------------- open authentication -------------> > <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication --------> > (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1) > <--------------- four-way handshake -------------> > (derives PTK) > <---------- add mobile (PTK) ----- > > fast handoff: > > (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1') > <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------> > (derives new PTK') > <- add mobile (PTK') > <---------- delete mobile -------- > > > > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP? > > I'm not sure to what you're referring. Using the > yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates > the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying > material. Additionally, it violates the security restriction > that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST > remain at the authenticator, which is the AC. > > > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I > have in the > > draft. > > I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol > changes. The only changes I can envision being necessary are > perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs > and WTPs know that each other supports 11r. All the 11r > protocol processing would be implemented at the AC. The WTP > would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages, > and know they should be forwarded to the AC. WTPs and ACs > would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r. > > -- > t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 10:44:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc12j-0001ZU-BK for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:44:45 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc0pU-0005dK-Jl for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:31:06 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A44430EEC for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F411D4A43C6 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36BA430E9B for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28851430E8A for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9NESqbb015657; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9NEShOX022171; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:37 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:37 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E3@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0klY4e+7UPnhTRf2FfrW+5OvmDgAo/i+sAEc+JbA= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Hasan Raza" , "Scott G. Kelly" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2006 14:28:37.0853 (UTC) FILETIME=[876EC0D0:01C6F6AF] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 To start with, we have to answer few questions: 1. How capwap is protected against discovery packet attacks? Even if there is a port-based or mux-based soltuion for reliably identifying discovery and DTLS packets, an attacker can send a discovery packet to the AC, which may result in the tear down of the WTP session. This is because discovery packets are un-authenticated packets, and are sent in plain. AC needs to blindly believe on the discovery packets. 2. If an AC employs actions again discovery packet attacks by discarding discovery packets if WTP session did not timeout, then an attacker may prevent the WTP joining back to the AC after a WTP crash. Attacker can detect a sudden absence of echo request messages from WTP, and start replaying the WTP echo request messages which causes AC not to teardown the WTP session. And thus genuine discovery packets might be discarded by AC. May be I am wrong here if DTLS can detect duplicate packets and discard them automatically. To resolve the above issues, we can impose following rules on AC. For issue (1) above: RULE 1: (a) AC discards all discovery packets if an active WTP session exists for the WTP. (b) A discovery packet from WTP can be accepted by AC only when there does not exist any active session for that WTP. Whereas, if a discovery packet is received if an active WTP session exists at AC, then all such discovery packets are discarded without change or update of any of the AC states. I disagree with this approach, and disagree with any mechanisms that will create delays before a WTP can reconnect to its AC. The couple of previous posts included a method to quickly detect the WTP had failed - in a secure fashion. To resolve the second issue (if at all it exists): RULE 2: AC should discard all duplicate DTLS and CAPWAP packets without change or update of any of its states. Sort of a bogus attack, but one that I suppose is possible. I would once more resort to my proposal that if the WTP can re-establish a successful DTLS (using a new UDP source port), then the old control and data channels are deleted. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 10:44:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc12o-0001fH-Iu for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:44:50 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc0oM-0005UM-78 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:30:17 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF8D1448010 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329274A45F2 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162BE430E93 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02A7430E9D for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-8.cisco.com ([171.68.10.93]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2006 07:28:54 -0700 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-8.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9NESskY020952; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:54 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9NESYbH028880; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:34 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:34 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E0@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acbzx6gzRnIyqDJeSh2XVUA2VdetaQAIMftAAJk3VBA= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Puneet Agarwal" , "Scott G. Kelly" , "Abhijit Choudhury" , "Dorothy Stanley" , "Michael Montemurro" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2006 14:28:34.0681 (UTC) FILETIME=[858ABE90:01C6F6AF] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-8.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 > Would having 3 UDP ports solve the problem: > (a) capwap-open control port : All unencrypted capwap control > packets go on this channel There is really only two CAPWAP packets that are in the clear - the Discovery packets. One alternative is to simply use the DTLS packet header, filled with zeroes. Yes, there is still some risk here because the DTLS header can change format, as stated by Scott. However, even so, we could agree on today's DTLS version for the unencrypted frames. A series of zeroes would imply an empty DTLS header, followed by the unencrypted CAPWAP control frame. > (b) capwap-open data port : All unencrypted capwap data > packets go on this channel > (b) capwap-secure port: All dtls encrypted capwap > data/control packets go on this channel. Demux for data vs > control happens after decryption. It's not completely obvious to me why the data plane packet format is not known apriori. The control channel will negotiate the use of crypto on the data channel, and all data plane packets received MUST be in the format negotiated. Assume for the moment a device negotiates crypto, but opts to send a plain text packet. Let's also assume that the packet had a way to signal it was in the clear (either through a bit, ot via a separate UDP port). Further, if the packet was supposed to be encrypted, as the bit or port indicates, but the packet is in the clear, then a CAPWAP device would have to attempt to decrypt the packet, which would fail and be dropped. So it seems to me like it is completely valid to simply have the endpoints (WTP, AC) remember the negotiated value (hell, you need to in order to transmit packets anyhow), and simply enforce the policy based on packets received. So it does seem to me like a dual port approach is completely possible. If there is concern about the empty DTLS header, then the three UDP port number is still an option. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 10:44:53 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc12r-0001mO-Do for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:44:53 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc0nm-0005Nc-O7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:29:36 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6131E430E84 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A6B4A43C6 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB4A430E75 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA77430E70 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2006 07:28:37 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9NESbJG007113; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:37 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9NESain022479; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:36 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E2@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0go7ZRC/7OpgdRraJnWWCdkT5IQBz2heg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Navin (NKA)" , "Scott G. Kelly" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2006 14:28:36.0717 (UTC) FILETIME=[86C169D0:01C6F6AF] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d > [NKA] My point is that seperate discovery packet processing > via a special port is a bad idea. And it doesn't bring any > additional value than what can be achieved without special > port approach. Scott's additional reasoning that two port > approach would open up scope for DOS atack. I totally > disagree with the argument. I claim that the same risk exists > even with 3-port approach also. In my previous post, I suggested the use of the source UDP port number in the DTLS SA table. This is required to support both the control and data plane being encrypted. However, it can also be used to detect a failed/reset WTP, but ensuring that the Discovery Request is sent from a new source UDP port. This does impose a requirement for random UDP ports on the WTP, but this is not out of the question since the RADIUS protocol imposes this on "fat" APs. That said, it is important to note that the "old" DTLS SA MUST not be torn down, or dismissed in any way until a new DTLS SA can be established using the new UDP source port. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 10:45:34 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc12n-0001Zt-3f for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:44:49 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc0ou-0005Zl-4G for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:30:33 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE39430E8C for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050F64A43C6 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A6E39801B for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB9A398046 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2006 07:28:40 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9NESe5h024692 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:40 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9NESdip022503 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:39 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:39 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E5@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue Thread-Index: Acb0h8LbID2mUdDPSw2/a22E0D8uaABz0pbg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2006 14:28:39.0393 (UTC) FILETIME=[8859BD10:01C6F6AF] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Bob, The names "Discovery Timer" and "Echo Timer" are not used in the CAPWAP specification. I will assume you mean the DiscoveryInterval and EchoInterval. I believe the issue you are raising is that the text is not descriptive on what to expect if the timer value is set to zero (0). This is a valid issue that does need to be addressed. I am OK with your proposal to simply disable the Echo mechanism when the timer value is set to zero. For DiscoveryInterval, I would propose we make the value illegal in the spec, and state that any illegal values MUST use the default value. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:39 PM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue > > In 4.4.12 of the -03 draft, the Discovery Timer and Echo > Timer fields are defined. The value of the field determines > the number of seconds between the two types of Request > packets. What does a value of zero mean in this field? > > For the Echo Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be > defined to mean that no Echo Request packets are sent. For > the Discovery Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be > reserved and, if received by a WTP, is interpreted to be the > same as if the value of 1 was received. > > -Bob > > Bob O'Hara > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 12:01:48 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc2FI-0000Dg-Ty for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:01:48 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc2FE-0004ee-0q for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:01:48 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3759431034 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B914A43C6 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A22A43101F for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (mcfeely.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.218]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43F7431020 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k9NG0dAg020242; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:00:39 -0400 Received: (from apache@localhost) by mcfeely.cs.umd.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k9NG0dMA020239; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:00:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mcfeely.cs.umd.edu: apache set sender to clancy@cs.umd.edu using -f Received: from 63.239.69.1 (SquirrelMail authenticated user clancy) by webmail.cs.umd.edu with HTTP; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <52649.63.239.69.1.1161619238.squirrel@webmail.cs.umd.edu> In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E4@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E4@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:00:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Charles Clancy" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE X-Spam-Level: Cc: Behcet Sarikaya , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH). This would be about equal to the latency of having the AC validating Association Request packets. Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s? I don't see any references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protocol. My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go through the AAA server. Unfortunately our main security association is with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so everything will have to go through the AC. -- t. charles clancy, ph.d. <> tcc@umd.edu <> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: > I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the > case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes > the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can > override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result > Association Response. > > When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys > necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to > defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does > change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to > push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own > authentication of the management frame. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] >> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM >> To: Behcet Sarikaya >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r >> >> Behcet, >> >> > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of >> 802.11r which >> > securely transports the keys. >> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind. >> >> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys >> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC >> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a >> new key distribution protocol at all. >> >> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff: >> >> STA WTP1 WTP2 AC >> -------------------------------------------------- >> >> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now): >> >> <--- assoc -----> >> <-------------- open authentication -------------> >> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication --------> >> (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1) >> <--------------- four-way handshake -------------> >> (derives PTK) >> <---------- add mobile (PTK) ----- >> >> fast handoff: >> >> (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1') >> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------> >> (derives new PTK') >> <- add mobile (PTK') >> <---------- delete mobile -------- >> >> >> > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP? >> >> I'm not sure to what you're referring. Using the >> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates >> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying >> material. Additionally, it violates the security restriction >> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST >> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC. >> >> > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I >> have in the >> > draft. >> >> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol >> changes. The only changes I can envision being necessary are >> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs >> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r. All the 11r >> protocol processing would be implemented at the AC. The WTP >> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages, >> and know they should be forwarded to the AC. WTPs and ACs >> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r. >> >> -- >> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap >> > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From bostj@fahnestock.com Mon Oct 23 12:13:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc2Qh-0000uy-89 for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:13:35 -0400 Received: from host138-82-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.7.82.138] helo=fahnestock.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc2Qb-0006cR-LC for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:13:35 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6f6bd$c3b8fc50$eac3a8c0@fgyzerl> Reply-To: "Dominga Mccausland" From: "Dominga Mccausland" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: VlbAGRA Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:10:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F683.175A2450" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F683.175A2450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, GREAT VlbAGRA http://www.pisadesinjionkadesun.com =20 What is it? 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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6F683.175A2450-- From Ines@angrybeaton.com Mon Oct 23 13:44:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc3qa-0007GT-Sk for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:44:24 -0400 Received: from h87-249-194-66-static.nysa.3play.net.pl ([87.249.194.66] helo=solid-snake.nysa.3play.net.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc3qK-0003Pm-Hp for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:44:24 -0400 Message-ID: <001501c6f6db$9991fcb0$001023ac@solidsnake> From: Annmarie To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: do the many Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:44:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6F6DB.9991FCB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0643-1, 2006-10-23), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 5ba9b8496764663b12c333825fbf6b3d ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6F6DB.9991FCB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C6F6DB.9991FCB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C6F6DB.9991FCB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That which does not kill you, makes you stronger. Blood is thicker than wat= er. No pain, no gain. Possible Interpretation: If something is good for one= person, it is good for everyone; Worrying is like sitting in a rocking cha= ir. It gives you something to do but it doesn't get you anywhere First come, first served. Hope for the best, expect the worst. This could a= lso be read as, A friend in need is a friend in debt. Variant for slow risers: The early worm gets eaten by the birds. Nature, ti= me, and patience are three great physicians. Fine words butter no parsnips.= Tomorrow is another day. Fine feathers make fine birds. Good eating deserves good drinking. Time is = of the essence. One fly makes a summer. Mark Twain Possible Interpretation:= Those that are helped are not the best. Keep no more cats than catch mice.= Never, Never... allow anyone to persuade you to suspend your common sense. = Don't bite the hand that feeds you. God is a living God. The more you know,= the less you need. Possible Interpretation: Everybody needs other people. People who live in g= lass houses have to answer the door. Good men are scarce. The English are a= nation of shopkeepers (attributed to Napoleon) It takes two to make a quar= rel. ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C6F6DB.9991FCB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
NEW YORK (Reuters) -- W= arren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. said Monday it has amassed a 1.97 m= illion share stake in Johnson & Johnson, and appears to have sold shares of= clothing retailer Gap Inc.
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3D"#463D9936"
Ernesto blamed = for knocking out power to more than 400,000 NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court TV)= -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife claims= he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relating= to her killing. KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN: 14 dead in Afghanistan crash Ernest= o blamed for knocking out power to more than 400,000 WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Pr= esident Bush declared Lebanon a front in the "global war on terrorism" Mond= ay, equating the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas to t= he U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court = TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife cla= ims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relat= ing to her killing. Lockheed beats Boeing for moon launcher ding women in c= orporate America. WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thwarted terrorist airline plot in= Britain is sparking a bitter new round of finger-pointing in Connecticut's= bruising Senate race. NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Wall Street bonuses will rise = 15 percent this year, with larger increases for investment bankers and equi= ties traders as merger activity surges and stocks rise, according to a stud= y released Monday. Latest job growth numbers: 'Just right'
NEW YORK (CM) -- Soft drink = and snack company PepsiCo Inc. announced Monday that chief financial office= r Indra Nooyi will take over from Chairman and CEO Steve Reinemund this Oct= ober. She becomes the first woman to hold the post and enters the list of l= ea At least five deaths blamed on Ernesto Hedge fund may boost McDonald's s= take WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thwarted terrorist airline plot in Britain is s= parking a bitter new round of finger-pointing in Connecticut's bruising Sen= ate race. Hedge fund may boost McDonald's stake EA scores touchdown with Ma= dden Hedge fund may boost McDonald's stake
COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tig= ers dead' in sea battle FARGO, North Dakota (AP) -- Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. s= tabbed college student Dru Sjodin, slit her throat and left her to die, a f= ederal prosecutor told jurors Monday. ENGLAND: Top judge to rule on Diana d= eath Broadcom to stay on Qualcomm's case WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush= declared Lebanon a front in the "global war on terrorism" Monday, equating= the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas to the U.S.-led = wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. At least five deaths blamed on Ernesto=
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- For th= e past decade, Honda has been out of step with most of its North American c= ompetitors - sometimes defiantly so. NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court TV) -- The= father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife claims he reb= uried his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relating to her= killing. NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. sa= id Monday it has amassed a 1.97 million share stake in Johnson & Johnson, a= nd appears to have sold shares of clothing retailer Gap Inc. Latest job gro= wth numbers: 'Just right' COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tigers dead' in sea batt= le More than 200 homes evacuated in Richmond, Virginia
Wealth gap between richest a= nd the average Joe grows 50% since the 1960s COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tiger= s dead' in sea battle CHOWCHILLA, California (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the f= ormer Symbionese Liberation Army fugitive who became a Minnesota housewife = and is now serving prison time for trying to bomb police cars in the 1970s,= says she tries to hide her radical past from her fe WASHINGTON (AP) -- The= thwarted terrorist airline plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new round = of finger-pointing in Connecticut's bruising Senate race. Are you paid what= you're worth? Lions cut ties with former No. 2 pick Rogers
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tuVx2y214EYr7rjk4nRAueimq26qY1Z17rrwutZuvPTWa+9NVt6r7778YjdqvwuFAAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6F6DB.9991FCB0-- From ykpjydsjkzt@redengine.com Mon Oct 23 16:58:41 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc6sb-0001mW-AU for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:58:41 -0400 Received: from [63.245.23.253] (helo=[63.245.23.253]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc6s5-0007op-VE for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:58:41 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c6f6e6$d165ab90$fd17f53f@HILDA> From: "Troch NYCJust" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Seenjudith hansen Minnesota lot. Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:04:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6F6B4.86CB3B90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: dd887a8966a4c4c217a52303814d0b5f ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6F6B4.86CB3B90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6F6B4.86CB3B90" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6F6B4.86CB3B90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Known pseudonym a Atrios or Glenn Reynolds kos Alex Steffen ana Marie am = cox Wonkette Hugh Hewitt direction or adding reach old important Tsunami = Medecins Sans. Handy resource designing is serve along lesson supplies tests assessing = Passage of enjoyable read havent pleasure of meeting thing days sum. Jitsu a ten bjj la Clippers mlb Monkey bar Gymnasium vp Lifeline = Usafitness in Madison wi difference in truth teaches lives words of = stuff sound important. Figure Skating Freestyle Ladies of men or Gymnastics Halls is Fame = Handball Hang Gliding Hiking Ball Field Inline Horseshoe Jiujitsu Judo! Billiards Bobsleigh Body Building or Five pin Broomball Coaching Cross = Country Skiing. Staff am Frank Nunez Miami initiating in regiment Lyle w Honolulu hi = point advice Kbells Pavelizer a boring weight. Yone suprised guys Rkcsam = Twito Northfield Mnyou planrated contains exact a kbs living near or = correctly fear ignorance dispenses wisdom insisting in benchmarks in = achieved taken feels. Wiki goes Marlow c or Conference Orleans la Fickling David a killed tv = star Newsblog Bonnie sky a gets? Cemented a source Howard Dean Wesley Clark Meanwhile number experts = blogged making am indepth of. Benchmarks or achieved of taken feels concerned repetitive of rear ugly = head fills or? ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C6F6B4.86CB3B90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Known pseudonym a Atrios or Glenn = Reynolds kos Alex=20 Steffen ana Marie am cox Wonkette Hugh Hewitt direction or adding reach = old=20 important Tsunami Medecins Sans.
Handy resource designing is serve = along=20 lesson supplies tests assessing Passage of enjoyable read havent = pleasure of=20 meeting thing days sum.
Jitsu a ten bjj la Clippers mlb Monkey bar = Gymnasium=20 vp Lifeline Usafitness in Madison wi difference in truth teaches lives = words of=20 stuff sound important.
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Figure Skating Freestyle Ladies of men = or=20 Gymnastics Halls is Fame Handball Hang Gliding Hiking Ball Field Inline=20 Horseshoe Jiujitsu Judo!
Billiards Bobsleigh Body Building or Five = pin=20 Broomball Coaching Cross Country Skiing.
Staff am Frank Nunez Miami=20 initiating in regiment Lyle w Honolulu hi point advice Kbells Pavelizer = a boring=20 weight. Yone suprised guys Rkcsam Twito Northfield Mnyou planrated = contains=20 exact a kbs living near or correctly fear ignorance dispenses wisdom = insisting=20 in benchmarks in achieved taken feels.
Wiki goes Marlow c or = Conference=20 Orleans la Fickling David a killed tv star Newsblog Bonnie sky a=20 gets?
Cemented a source Howard Dean Wesley Clark Meanwhile number = experts=20 blogged making am indepth of.
Benchmarks or achieved of taken feels = concerned=20 repetitive of rear ugly head fills or?
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capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 17:08:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc72B-0004wc-9p for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:08:35 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc0ue-0006Nd-4v for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:36:26 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D50430F48 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3301B4A45F0 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED788430E94 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77EC430E99 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2006 07:28:52 -0700 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9NESpbX015641; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:51 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9NEShOV022171; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:28:35 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E1@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0er3UXKHkBldMTBqMJ0APcFqCSwB1MYVA From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2006 14:28:35.0775 (UTC) FILETIME=[8631ACF0:01C6F6AF] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 > I've been re-thinking my position on this, given that the > working group is committed to a multiport approach. Certainly > there are multiple ways to solve this, and while I would > prefer a solution that didn't involve adding yet more ports, > we are where we are. > > That said, I think adding a 3rd port which is only used for > discovery operations solves part of the problem. In that > case, the control channel is always DTLS traffic, and we have > an unambiguous solution which requires no protocol hacks. True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third port is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but I believe it to be completely workable. > > As for the data channel, it's a little more complex. If > hardware vendors must know a priori whether data is protected > or not, the only options are either two data ports or a type > header, and given the dramatic allergic reactions we've seen > to protocol layering beyond the udp header here, distinct > ports seem to be the only option on the table. However, if > hardware vendors support tuple-plumbing, we can do this with > one data port. > > Tuple-plumbing solves the problem by letting the application > tell the hardware when a session is protected or not, but you > have to look at the source port too. This is part of the > problem some of Pat's signalling is meant to solve. Once the > AC knows what characteristics a given tuple should have, this > can be plumbed into the hardare. I'm a big believer that the data plane must know apriori the CAPWAP data plane formats. Regardless, one must validate the packet to detect erroneous formats, so an implementation that guards itself against attacks, which folks should be implementing, will not view this as a deficit. > > This still leaves two problems: associating a NAT'd data > channel with the appropriate control channel, and the QoS > problem for the data channel. The channel association can be > solved by using the session ID, as has been noted numerous > times in past threads. One way this could be extended to > encompass multiple data channels would be to extend the > session ID field, and treat the high-order portion as the > session id, and the low-order portion as the channel id > (control channel has channel id 0, data channel with no QoS > has channel id 1, and so on). Just a thought. Right, and recall in my proposal that I had proposed two alternatives, one more complex than the other. The simpler approach was to simply include a session ID in the CAPWAP header, which was used to create the correlation between the control and data plane. > > Since there will be initial ambiguity when multiple WTPs are > behind a NAT, there are two options: > > 1) don't worry about it; let the WTP establish a DTLS session > without knowing which control channel it belongs to, and then > get the session binding out of the first protected data > packet (which may be an echo) to create the binding; if no > packets come within some preset interval, tear down the DTLS session. > > 2) do some inline signalling, as Pat suggested. This could be > via a capwap header with some special value, or it could be > the text STARTDTLS along with the session/channel id - whatever. The above alternative requires no inline signalling on the data plane, and only requires that the session ID be present in the header to help associate both planes. This does not, however, also address keeping the NAT table fresh. In my proposal, I had included an inline signalling scheme to keep the session alive, but I now realize there are much simpler methods of handling this. The WTP could simply send an 802.11 NULL data frame (either on behalf of a valid station, or some agreed upon MAC address defined in the CAPWAP standard). Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Oct 23 17:51:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc7hc-0003uA-Pm for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:51:24 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc7hZ-0005hn-W7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:51:24 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7193980E1 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from g1-42.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.62.209.16]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA8E4A45C5 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD4F1448021 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8871F1448039 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so3181481nfb for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.126.19 with SMTP id y19mr1573276buc; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.118.16 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369e612f0610231449v7fc448bap7d2a36fb72a51f54@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:19:59 +0530 From: "Navin (NKA)" To: pcalhoun@cisco.com, "Scott G. Kelly" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Seperate Port Vs Common Port Approach Comparison... X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 963faf56c3a5b6715f0b71b66181e01a Pat, Scott, et all, Below, I have taken the liberty of comparing 'seperate port' apporach with 'Common Port' approach. To me it looks like, there is no additional advantage in going with 'seperate port' approach. 'Common port' approach's behaviour (during normal functioning as well as DoS attack) is nearly same as 'seperate port' approach. Please go through the comparison to know for yourself. Regards, Navin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is a Seperate Port Apporach ? ANS: In this approach, seperate port (e.g. 0x2FBF) will be used for sending and receiving Capwap Discovery Control Plane packets. As all other control packets exchanged between AC and WTP are going to be DTLS secured, they will be sent to a different port (e.g. 0x2FC0). What is a Common Port Apporach ? ANS: Here, Capwap will use just one port (e.g. 0x2FBF) for sending and receiving Discovery as well as all other DTLS secured control plane pkts. Situation 1: A legitimate WTP just now got powered and once its up, it starts sending discovery packet to ACs. And once discovery is complete, DTLS session establishment between WTP and AC. Seperate Port Apporach: * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * it would do discovery reply. * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that no prior session information exists, it would continue with DTLS session establishment process. Common Port Apporach: * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists or not. If not, it would do discovery reply. * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session information exists (and FSM state is Discovery), it would continue with DTLS session establishment process. Situation 2a: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type Discovery packet again to an AC. Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation): * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * it would do discovery reply. * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP session information. Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session establishment by processing ClientHello message. Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time. Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation): * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that most likely WTP got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply. * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would continue with DTLS session establishment process. Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time. Situation 2b: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type Discovery packet again to an AC. Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation): * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * it would do discovery reply. * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session information exists (with FSM=Run), AC would simply discard the clientHello packet. And would wait for the keepalive timer to expire for the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, WTP session information will be deleted, bringing AC in sync with WTP. Ultimately AC will start processing clientHello packets to carry on with DTLS session establishment. Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time. Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation): * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming discovery pacekt and wait for the keepalive timer to expire for the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, AC's FSM will be in sync with WTP. From this point onwards, AC will start processing discovery packets followed by DTLS session establishment. Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time Situation 3: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation. Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation): * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * it would do discovery reply. * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO DISCOVERY REPLY. * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC. * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP session information. Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session establishment by processing ClientHello message. But most likely the illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its authentication will fail ultimately with AC. Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session was brought down by an illegal WTP. Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation): * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that most likely WTP got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply. * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO DISCOVERY REPLY. * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would continue with DTLS session establishment process. But most likely the illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its authentication will fail ultimately with AC. Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session was brought down by an illegal WTP. Situation 4: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation. Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation): * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * it would do discovery reply. * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO DISCOVERY REPLY. * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC. * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will keep dropping the clientHello packet coming from duplicate (illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session would remain intact. Remark: DoS attack was NOT SUCCESSFUL. Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation): * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming discovery pacekt coming from duplicate (& illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session would remain intact. Remark: DoS attack was NOT successful. Conclusion: Common Port approach behaves nearly same as Seperate port approach be it normal functioning or DoS attack situation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From akstcexplosivemnsdgs@explosive.com Mon Oct 23 20:12:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc9u9-00058h-Hi for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:12:29 -0400 Received: from cpe-74-65-27-152.rochester.res.rr.com ([74.65.27.152] helo=Bobby14.rochester.rr.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gc9u4-0002jI-4C for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:12:29 -0400 Received: from 206.130.114.186 (HELO explosive.com) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (460UDIN4GTQ 80L97) id Y7HVT3-Z6390I-4J for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2006 00:12:24 +0300 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2006 00:12:24 +0300 From: "Sonja Wallace" X-Mailer: The Bat! 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<000801c6f70d$f9e94e10$6549f0c9@familia> From: "Sam whisky" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Drops. letter Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:44:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6F6E4.11134610" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 65215b440f7ab00ca9514de4a7a89926 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6F6E4.11134610 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F6E4.11134610" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F6E4.11134610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lucky posts world ben Franklins Birthday googles a rating strongly = correlate cool Replace beta liberal p access education am context = reality Edternst Choukula blosting cranky dot com slash or. 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Lucky posts world ben Franklins = Birthday googles a=20 rating strongly correlate cool Replace beta liberal p access education = am=20 context reality Edternst Choukula blosting cranky dot com slash = or.
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Video in Good Causesexy raises money injured a Headlines pm = Onmega=20 Foxout Controlby Roger.
Latest we Report Searchfnc Turns decade = offair in=20 balanced am newson fnc Friendsfox Onlineyour Worldbig=20 Reportfox.
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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcD3i-0004lU-Dp for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:34:36 -0400 Received: from 216.131.96.234 (HELO oakweb.com) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (RHDITK5A1W 7TH5KN) id JV5IV9-OQY5S2-BK for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2006 03:34:34 -0480 Message-ID: <01c6f71d$5317aa90$6c822ecf@eclectixxx> From: "Rodolfo Lockett" To: Subject: Hallo Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2006 03:34:34 -0480 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F760.613AEA90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F760.613AEA90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You have been approved for a $400,000 Home Loan for as low as=20= $917/monthThis offer is being presented to you right now!. Your credit=20= history is in no way a factor. Bad Credit OK!To take advantage of this=20= Limited Time Opportunity,please take a minute and confirm your curiosity=20= or intention to accept this loan, at the=20= followingweb-site:http://Lockett.af370.com given so soon, was such an instance of lady catherine's condescension,=20= as he knew not how to admirethem. had lydia's marriage been concluded on=20= the most honourable terms, it was not to be supposedunabated, i felt no=20= doubt of their happiness together."she was engaged one day as she=20= walked, in perusing jane's last letter, and dwelling on somenothing but=20= of mr. wickham, and of what he had told her, all the way home; but there=20= was not time for husband, "and all the others equally well married, i shall have nothing=20= to wish for."should be quartered in meryton. Y>Y>Y>Y>Y>Y>Y> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F760.613AEA90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You have been approved for=20= a $400,000 Home Loan for as low as $917/month
This offer is being=20= presented to you right now!. Your credit history is in no way a factor. =20= Bad Credit OK!

To take advantage of this=20= Limited Time Opportunity,
please take a minute and=20= confirm your curiosity or intention to accept this loan, at the=20= following
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given so soon, was such an instance of lady catherine's condescension,=20= as he knew not how to admirethem. had lydia's marriage been concluded on=20= the most honourable terms, it was not to be supposedunabated, i felt no=20= doubt of their happiness together."she was engaged one day as she=20= walked, in perusing jane's last letter, and dwelling on somenothing but=20= of mr. wickham, and of what he had told her, all the way home; but there=20= was not time for husband, "and all the others equally well married, i shall have nothing=20= to wish for."should be quartered in meryton. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F760.613AEA90-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 00:38:48 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcE3s-0005jd-Fu for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 00:38:48 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcE3p-0001Gr-VL for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 00:38:48 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BDA398026 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1683B4A45F0 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C5739804A for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9137D39801E for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2006 21:38:00 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9O4bxpr031133 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:37:59 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9O4bxin018920 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:37:59 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:37:58 -0700 Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC02322BB2@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue Thread-Index: Acb0h8LbID2mUdDPSw2/a22E0D8uaABz0pbgADO+eOA= From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2006 04:37:59.0658 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F0914A0:01C6F726] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4.cisco.com; header.From=boohara@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Pat, Actually, in 4.4.12 of the -03 draft, those names do appear as fielded names, not timer names. I am ok with your proposal, as long as the default value is defined for the Discovery Timer field. -Bob -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 7:29 AM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue Bob, The names "Discovery Timer" and "Echo Timer" are not used in the CAPWAP specification. I will assume you mean the DiscoveryInterval and EchoInterval. I believe the issue you are raising is that the text is not descriptive on what to expect if the timer value is set to zero (0). This is a valid issue that does need to be addressed. I am OK with your proposal to simply disable the Echo mechanism when the timer value is set to zero. For DiscoveryInterval, I would propose we make the value illegal in the spec, and state that any illegal values MUST use the default value. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:39 PM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP Timer element issue > > In 4.4.12 of the -03 draft, the Discovery Timer and Echo > Timer fields are defined. The value of the field determines > the number of seconds between the two types of Request > packets. What does a value of zero mean in this field? > > For the Echo Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be > defined to mean that no Echo Request packets are sent. For > the Discovery Timer, I would propose that a value of zero be > reserved and, if received by a WTP, is interpreted to be the > same as if the value of 1 was received. > > -Bob > > Bob O'Hara > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From svhpjcoirj@qeddata.com Tue Oct 24 03:43:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcGwH-0007eh-Qi for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:43:09 -0400 Received: from [211.190.189.184] (helo=[211.190.189.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcGwE-0001tC-QF for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:43:09 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c6f73f$789bbaf0$b8bdbed3@yourvamwo1l0k1> From: "television" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: From Editors Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:39:00 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6F78A.E88362F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 918f4bd8440e8de4700bcf6d658bc801 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6F78A.E88362F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6F78A.E88362F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6F78A.E88362F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Consist in having of expertise or net trained dedicated Progamming More = Indian Designings reduction is compare extension. 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([64.62.209.16] helo=g1-42.tigertech.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcOZq-0008Lt-RD for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:52:35 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8449A431535 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5644A4547 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60B9398014 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4710A39800F for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Oct 2006 17:51:47 +0200 Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (india-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.129.221]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9OFpjCG017372 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:51:45 +0200 Received: from xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-412.cisco.com [64.104.140.149]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9OFpgB1026262 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:51:43 GMT Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:21:43 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:21:41 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01FF8A1A@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb3hExvfrWUJ93uSxCyGHA29lgS4w== From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2006 15:51:43.0147 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D4FFFB0:01C6F784] Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.373 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0729904556==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0729904556== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F784.4D515887" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F784.4D515887 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, =20 The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?=20 The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request. =20 Thanks Smitha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F784.4D515887 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,
 
The = spec talks about=20 AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS Client Hello with a = valid=20 cookie. Should this really be the case?
The AC = should=20 transition to Join state on receiving a Join = Request.
 
Thanks
Smitha
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F784.4D515887-- --===============0729904556== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0729904556==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 11:56:20 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcOdY-0004yT-Bw for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:56:20 -0400 Received: from hermes.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.16] helo=g1-42.tigertech.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcOdR-0000ie-Hi for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:56:20 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C5C43153F for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from g1-42.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.62.209.16]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606FD4A4547 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 416144314DF for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1DE43152E for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Oct 2006 08:55:43 -0700 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9OFthI5024515 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:55:43 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9OFtPOv020902 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:55:39 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:55:39 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2680878@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb3hExvfrWUJ93uSxCyGHA29lgS4wAAI3BZ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2006 15:55:39.0747 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA564B30:01C6F784] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 61 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0170054582==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0170054582== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F784.DA39966F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F784.DA39966F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" = state. We clearly need to transition to a new (non-DTLS) state when the = DTLS channel is open. PatC -----Original Message----- From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state All, =20 The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?=20 The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request. =20 Thanks Smitha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F784.DA39966F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] transition to join state

I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a = "join ready" state. We clearly need to transition to a new = (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From:   Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)
Sent:   Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard = Time
To:     capwap
Subject:        [Capwap] transition = to join state

All,

The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving = DTLS
Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case?
The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request.

Thanks
Smitha

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F784.DA39966F-- --===============0170054582== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0170054582==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 12:34:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcPEo-0006Qm-Af for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:34:50 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcPEd-0007g1-5m for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:34:50 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36963980B3 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEFC4A4547 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C87398060 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:34:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 2 days 22:58:59 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8D5398055 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:33:53 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:33:51 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0er3UXKHkBldMTBqMJ0APcFqCSwB1MYVAAE4hjT8= References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B184E1@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> From: "Hasan Raza" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Scott G. Kelly" , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.107 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2000859947==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2000859947== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F78A.3086181F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F78A.3086181F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports =20 > True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port > is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to > consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but=20 > I believe it to be completely workable. For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero = filled DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header. All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version field would also become zero. Hasan ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F78A.3086181F Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people = to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is = "hack-ish", but
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero = filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS = header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because = version
field would also become zero.



Hasan

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F78A.3086181F-- --===============2000859947== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============2000859947==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 12:40:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcPKV-0000ha-EC for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:40:43 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcPKS-0000LS-JC for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:40:43 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10E13980BA for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6FA4A4547 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1367939804F for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0137239801D for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Oct 2006 09:39:59 -0700 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9OGdwMe014972; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:39:58 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9OGdwAq028323; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:39:58 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:39:58 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A268087B@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0er3UXKHkBldMTBqMJ0APcFqCSwB1MYVAAE4hjT8AAMAtTA== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Hasan Raza" , "Scott G. Kelly" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2006 16:39:58.0408 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B05C480:01C6F78B] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 61 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.877 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1771819779==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8f374d0786b25a451ef87d82c076f593 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1771819779== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F78B.0AD7A5BD" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F78B.0AD7A5BD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version = fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility), and = generally increase monotonically.=20 This does point out that CAPWAP should specify a DTLS version. PatC -----Original Message----- From: Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard Time To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports =20 > True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port > is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to > consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but=20 > I believe it to be completely workable. For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero = filled DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header. All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version field would also become zero. Hasan ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F78B.0AD7A5BD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting = that version fields are typically fixed in location (for future = compatibility), and generally increase monotonically.

This does point out that CAPWAP should specify a DTLS version.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From:   Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:   Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard = Time
To:     Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; = pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:     capwap
Subject:        Re: [Capwap] need = clarification on UDP ports




-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people = to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is = "hack-ish", but
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero = filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS = header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because = version
field would also become zero.



Hasan

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F78B.0AD7A5BD-- --===============1771819779== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1771819779==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 13:19:31 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcPw3-0006NO-IK for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:19:31 -0400 Received: from hermes.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.16] helo=g1-42.tigertech.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcPvy-0000UT-RB for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:19:31 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1972C431702 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE074A4547 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3A139801D for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 2 days 23:44:04 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44853398038 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:18:58 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:18:57 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0er3UXKHkBldMTBqMJ0APcFqCSwB1MYVAAE4hjT8AAMAtTAABJQkI References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A268087B@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> From: "Hasan Raza" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Scott G. Kelly" , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.107 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1641246783==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e472ca43d56132790a46d9eefd95f0a5 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1641246783== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F790.7D6D76F7" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F790.7D6D76F7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: =20 > While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version > fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility), > and generally increase monotonically. My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero, the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost. Hasan -----Original Message----- From: Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard Time To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports =20 > True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port > is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to > consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but=20 > I believe it to be completely workable. For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero = filled DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header. All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version field would also become zero. Hasan ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F790.7D6D76F7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that = version
> fields are typically fixed in location (for future = compatibility),
> and generally increase monotonically.
My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at
fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might
be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,
the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.


Hasan


 -----Original Message-----
From:   Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:   Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard = Time
To:     Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; = pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:     capwap
Subject:        Re: [Capwap] need = clarification on UDP ports




-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people = to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is = "hack-ish", but
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero = filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS = header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because = version
field would also become zero.



Hasan

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F790.7D6D76F7-- --===============1641246783== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1641246783==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 13:26:47 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcQ35-0003n1-Rx for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:26:47 -0400 Received: from hermes.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.16] helo=g1-42.tigertech.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcQ31-0001sQ-5D for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:26:47 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7784B431791 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB9234A4547 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E7CA39805C for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCD4398038 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.35] (helo=elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GcQ2X-0004ol-M7; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:26:14 -0400 Received: from 75.6.46.166 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:26:12 -0400 Message-ID: <14691622.1161710772919.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:26:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: Hasan Raza , "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , pagarwal@broadcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff71097877e78781257391cad8502b509620b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.35 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d -----Original Message----- >From: Hasan Raza >Sent: Oct 24, 2006 1:18 PM >To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Scott G. Kelly" , pagarwal@broadcom.com >Cc: capwap >Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > > >Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > >> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version >> fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility), >> and generally increase monotonically. >My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at >fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might >be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero, >the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost. Right. And the previous email suggested > For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front > of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it > be zero filled > DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be > that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the > DTLS header. This sounds an awful lot like the type header suggestion - a fixed number of bytes after the UDP header that indicate *precisely* what follows. No hacking, no ambiguity - seems like a no-brainer. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 13:28:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcQ54-0004Xn-8t for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:28:50 -0400 Received: from hermes.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.16] helo=g1-42.tigertech.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcQ4y-0002Qe-SC for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:28:50 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4A54317AB for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8444A4547 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324B3398049 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622A739801D for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Oct 2006 19:28:11 +0200 Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (india-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.129.221]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9OHS97K016782; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:28:10 +0200 Received: from xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-412.cisco.com [64.104.140.149]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9OHS5B1001194; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:28:06 GMT Received: from xmb-blr-416.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.145]) by xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:58:05 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:58:02 +0530 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0er3UXKHkBldMTBqMJ0APcFqCSwB1MYVAAE4hjT8AAMAtTAABJQkIAAB8/DA= From: "Rohit Suri (rsuri)" To: "Hasan Raza" , "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Scott G. Kelly" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2006 17:28:05.0507 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3DE1D30:01C6F791] Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=rsuri@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.429 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1418544371==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 963faf56c3a5b6715f0b71b66181e01a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1418544371== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F791.C3B04DE8" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F791.C3B04DE8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think setting the DTLS header to zero would make the version ID in dtls header also zero, making the header length deterministic. =20 Regards Rohit ________________________________ From: Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:19 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version > fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility), > and generally increase monotonically. My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero, the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost. Hasan -----Original Message----- From: Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard Time To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third port > is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to > consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but > I believe it to be completely workable. For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero filled DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header. All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version field would also become zero. Hasan ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F791.C3B04DE8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
I think setting the DTLS header to zero would = make the=20 version ID in dtls header also zero, making the header length=20 deterministic.
 
Regards
Rohit


From: Hasan Raza = [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:19 AM
To: Pat = Calhoun=20 (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP=20 ports




Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> While it is = impossible=20 to disagree, it is worth noting that version
> fields are = typically fixed=20 in location (for future compatibility),
> and generally increase=20 monotonically.
My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version = field is=20 at
fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size = might
be=20 version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,
the = version=20 information, and in turn header size info., is=20 lost.


Hasan


 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20   Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:&nb= sp; =20 Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard=20 Time
To:     Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. = Kelly;=20 pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:    =20 capwap
Subject:        Re: = [Capwap] need=20 clarification on UDP ports




-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent= : Mon=20 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:=20 capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP = ports


>=20 True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port
>=20 is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people = to
>=20 consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but
> = I=20 believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique = pattern of=20 fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery = packets.=20 Why should it be zero filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction = on the=20 pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed = bytes of the=20 DTLS header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled = DTLS=20 header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), = because=20 version
field would also become=20 zero.



Hasan

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F791.C3B04DE8-- --===============1418544371== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1418544371==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 16:04:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcSVP-0007Vg-HY for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:04:11 -0400 Received: from hermes.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.16] helo=g1-42.tigertech.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcSUw-0004xc-M9 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:04:11 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE95431A72 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7629C4A45C3 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569BF39802E for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97316398063 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Oct 2006 12:56:33 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9OJuXje032370; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:33 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9OJuWin013886; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:32 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:31 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2680881@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb0er3UXKHkBldMTBqMJ0APcFqCSwB1MYVAAE4hjT8AAMAtTAABJQkIAAW4Vsc= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Hasan Raza" , "Scott G. Kelly" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2006 19:56:32.0454 (UTC) FILETIME=[80D25E60:01C6F7A6] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 61 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.877 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1501544528==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f2984bf50fb52a9e56055f779793d783 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1501544528== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F7A6.804F4C8B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F7A6.804F4C8B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a packet = with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which is of lengh 'y'. PatC -----Original Message----- From: Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:18 AM Pacific Standard Time To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: =20 > While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version > fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility), > and generally increase monotonically. My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero, the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost. Hasan -----Original Message----- From: Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard Time To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports =20 > True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port > is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people to > consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is "hack-ish", but=20 > I believe it to be completely workable. For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero = filled DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS header. All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header would impose variable header size problems (in future), because version field would also become zero. Hasan ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F7A6.804F4C8B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation = receiving a packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which is = of lengh 'y'.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From:   Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:   Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:18 AM Pacific Standard = Time
To:     Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; = pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:     capwap
Subject:        RE: [Capwap] need = clarification on UDP ports




Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that = version
> fields are typically fixed in location (for future = compatibility),
> and generally increase monotonically.
My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at
fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might
be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero,
the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.


Hasan


 -----Original Message-----
From:   Hasan Raza [mailto:Hasan@sinett.com]
Sent:   Tuesday, October 24, 2006 09:35 AM Pacific Standard = Time
To:     Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly; = pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:     capwap
Subject:        Re: [Capwap] need = clarification on UDP ports




-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Mon 10/23/2006 7:28 AM
To: Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


> True, and if we decide that hacks are not acceptable, then a third = port
> is really the only way to solve this one. However, I'd like people = to
> consider the zero filled DTLS header. Yes, it is = "hack-ish", but
> I believe it to be completely workable.
For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front
of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it be zero = filled
DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the DTLS = header.
All zeros is a good pattern, though. I think zero filled DTLS header
would impose variable header size problems (in future), because = version
field would also become zero.



Hasan

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F7A6.804F4C8B-- --===============1501544528== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1501544528==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 16:25:32 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcSq4-0005NC-Po for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:25:32 -0400 Received: from hermes.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.16] helo=g1-42.tigertech.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcSpW-0000d8-WD for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:25:32 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C72A431835 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C668B4A45C3 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD706398021 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D358398038 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.49] (helo=elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GcSoX-0007qV-6P; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:23:57 -0400 Received: from 75.6.46.166 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:23:52 -0400 Message-ID: <15043823.1161721432148.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:23:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , Hasan Raza , pagarwal@broadcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff7109a0ebb73d7ab1e6cac54aa86f734d1cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.49 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: >Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a packet with > 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which is of lengh 'y'. ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't adopt this hack? Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 24 21:38:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcXib-0000Gz-PN for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:38:09 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcXiZ-0002k7-9S for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:38:09 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635EA398112 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DA84A45C3 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EE939801B for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E718B398034 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Oct 2006 03:37:31 +0200 Received: from hkg-core-1.cisco.com (hkg-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.123.94]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9P1bTgC007793 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 03:37:29 +0200 Received: from xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-411.cisco.com [64.104.140.150]) by hkg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9P1bRVt027001 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:37:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:07:26 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:07:24 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01FF8A4F@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb3hExvfrWUJ93uSxCyGHA29lgS4wAAI3BZABQxsSA= From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2006 01:37:26.0402 (UTC) FILETIME=[20532620:01C6F7D6] Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Pat, The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - (Idle to Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. Why is it necessary to have a "join ready" state? Thanks Smitha -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" state. We clearly need to transition to a new (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open. PatC -----Original Message----- From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time To: capwap Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state All, The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case? The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request. Thanks Smitha _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 25 00:30:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcaNw-0007ce-Ha for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 00:29:00 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcSmF-0007yx-G5 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:21:35 -0400 Received: from hermes.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.16] helo=g1-42.tigertech.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcSQl-0001fb-63 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:59:27 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2CC8431733 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from g1-42.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.62.209.16]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E094A45C3 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03677431A64 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF40431A50 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Oct 2006 12:56:36 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9OJuaaE002247; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:36 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9OJuain013931; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:56:35 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A2680882@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb3kar8R/uyMCbdRWaOeKapM1TaBQAFNfmg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "Hasan Raza" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2006 19:56:36.0069 (UTC) FILETIME=[82F9F950:01C6F7A6] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 61 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0137487522==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 156eddb66af16eef49a76ae923b15b92 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0137487522== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F7A6.82E15593" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F7A6.82E15593 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No. There is a distinct difference as it is sent on the control port.=20 PatC -----Original Message----- From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:27 AM Pacific Standard Time To: Hasan Raza; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); pagarwal@broadcom.com Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports -----Original Message----- >From: Hasan Raza >Sent: Oct 24, 2006 1:18 PM >To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Scott G. Kelly" = , pagarwal@broadcom.com >Cc: capwap >Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > > >Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: >=20 >> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that version >> fields are typically fixed in location (for future compatibility), >> and generally increase monotonically. >My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is at >fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size might >be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made zero, >the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost. Right. And the previous email suggested=20 > For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in front > of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it=20 > be zero filled > DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be > that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the=20 > DTLS header. This sounds an awful lot like the type header suggestion - a fixed = number of bytes after the UDP header that indicate *precisely* what = follows. No hacking, no ambiguity - seems like a no-brainer. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F7A6.82E15593 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

No. There is a distinct difference as it is sent on = the control port.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From:   Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] Sent:   Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:27 AM Pacific Standard = Time
To:     Hasan Raza; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); = pagarwal@broadcom.com
Cc:     capwap
Subject:        Re: [Capwap] need = clarification on UDP ports

-----Original Message-----
>From: Hasan Raza <Hasan@sinett.com>
>Sent: Oct 24, 2006 1:18 PM
>To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" <pcalhoun@cisco.com>, = "Scott G. Kelly" <scott@hyperthought.com>, = pagarwal@broadcom.com
>Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
>Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>
>
>
>
>Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>
>> While it is impossible to disagree, it is worth noting that = version
>> fields are typically fixed in location (for future = compatibility),
>> and generally increase monotonically.
>My mistake that I was not clear. I agree that version field is = at
>fixed location, and increase monotonically. But header size = might
>be version dependent as well. Now since DTLS header is made = zero,
>the version information, and in turn header size info., is lost.

Right. And the previous email suggested

> For that matter any unique pattern of fixed amount of bytes in = front
> of udp header can work for discovery packets. Why should it
> be zero filled
> DTLS header only? The only restriction on the pattern should be
> that it is uniquely different from first fixed bytes of the
> DTLS header.

This sounds an awful lot like the type header suggestion - a fixed = number of bytes after the UDP header that indicate *precisely* what = follows. No hacking, no ambiguity - seems like a no-brainer.

Scott


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:27:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F828.8CA8F0A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8a85b14f27c9dcbe0719e27d46abc1f8 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F828.8CA8F0A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6F828.8CA8F0A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6F828.8CA8F0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Newscouric amp Cothe Early Show Hours on Tape the Coverage Lara Logan in = reports from around world Concert Archive. Newscouric amp Cothe Early = Show Hours on Tape the Coverage Lara Logan in reports from around world = Concert Archive. Top Stories and in Clips am at Home in var secid dctag am cce Videos = Videoscbs am Evening Newscouric amp Cothe Early. Dctag cce in Videos or Videoscbs a Evening Newscouric amp a Cothe Early = Show Hours on Tape the Coverage Lara Logan reports in from a around = world. News Video top Stories and Clips of at Home var secid dctag cce Videos = Videoscbs Evening Newscouric amp Cothe am Early Show Hours. Cothe Early Show a Hours on Tape the is Coverage Lara Logan. Videos Videoscbs am Evening Newscouric amp Cothe Early Show Hours on = Tape the in Coverage Lara Logan reports of. Stories and Clips is at Home a var secid dctag cce Videos is Videoscbs = Evening am Newscouric amp. News Video top Stories and Clips at of Home var secid dctag cce a Videos = Videoscbs Evening Newscouric amp Cothe Early of Show. 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Newscouric amp Cothe Early Show Hours = on Tape the=20 Coverage Lara Logan in reports from around world Concert Archive. = Newscouric amp=20 Cothe Early Show Hours on Tape the Coverage Lara Logan in reports from = around=20 world Concert Archive.
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Top Stories and in Clips = am at Home in=20 var secid dctag am cce Videos Videoscbs am Evening Newscouric amp Cothe=20 Early.
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ppp-124.120.76.85.revip2.asianet.co.th ([124.120.76.85] helo=angoravet.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcevU-0007TS-AG for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:20:17 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c6f851$66230b90$00757c8c@microsof92211f> From: Dionne To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: I now a now Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:19:51 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6F851.66230B90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4bb0e9e1ca9d18125bc841b2d8d77e24 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6F851.66230B90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6F851.66230B90" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6F851.66230B90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Penny wise, pound foolish. A creaking door hangs longest. and A creaking ga= te hangs long. Simple things amuse simple minds The start of a journey shou= ld never be mistaken for success. Better late than never. Bloom where you are planted. Interpretation: A flawed article will require = a lot of effort to work with You can't have it both ways. Birds of a feather flock together. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Al= l things come to he who waits. It takes two to make a quarrel. More haste, less speed. Talk the hind legs off a donkey. One mans meat, is = another mans poison. Thats the straw that broke the camels back. Better the= devil you know than the devil you don't. Brain is better than brawn. He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Water, water everywhere..= but not a drop to drink There's no accounting for taste. Where's there's m= uck, there's brass There is only eight years been success and failure in politics. -Jim Brown,= Louisiana statesman We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams= A creaking door hangs longest. and A creaking gate hangs long. Life's a b= itch and then you marry one If you're in a hole, stop digging. ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6F851.66230B90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
NEW YORK (Reuters) -- W= all Street bonuses will rise 15 percent this year, with larger increases fo= r investment bankers and equities traders as merger activity surges and sto= cks rise, according to a study released Monday.
NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Co= urt TV) -- The father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife= claims he reburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence r= elating to her killing.
Atlantis' astronauts strapped into the space shu= ttle Thursday for a practice launch countdown more than two weeks before th= ey are scheduled to blast off on a mission to resume construction of the in= ternational space station.
3D"#15384E"
AFGHANISTAN: 1= 4 Britons dead in Afghan aircraft crash LONDON Atlantis' astronauts strappe= d into the space shuttle Thursday for a practice launch countdown more than= two weeks before they are scheduled to blast off on a mission to resume co= nstruction of the international space station. Lockheed beats Boeing for mo= on launcher NEW YORK (CM) -- Soft drink and snack company PepsiCo Inc. anno= unced Monday that chief financial officer Indra Nooyi will take over from C= hairman and CEO Steve Reinemund this October. She becomes the first woman t= o hold the post and enters the list of lea You may be paid more (or less) t= han you think
NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show h= osts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among = the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing = With the Stars. WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush declared Lebanon a front= in the "global war on terrorism" Monday, equating the Israeli battle again= st Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas to the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and I= raq. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucke= r Carlson of MSNBC will be among the celebrities competing on the third sea= son of ABC television's "Dancing With the Stars. l storms or monster hurric= anes like Katrina and Andrew. WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thwarted terrorist air= line plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new round of finger-pointing in C= onnecticut's bruising Senate race. At least five deaths blamed on Ernesto
At least five deaths blamed = on Ernesto WASHINGTON (AP) -- Scientists have discovered possible bird flu = in two wild swans on the shore of Lake Erie -- but it does not appear to be= the much-feared Asian strain that has ravaged poultry and killed at least = 138 people elsewhere in the world. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry S= pringer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among the celebrit= ies competing on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing With the Sta= rs. LONDON, ENGLAND: 16 held in British terror swoops KANDAHAR CANBERRA, Au= stralia (Reuters) -- Australian scientists have begun looking at smell sens= ors in worms and insects to help them build an electronic "cybernose" they = hope will one day be capable of measuring aromas and flavors in wine. NEW Y= ORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson = of MSNBC will be among the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC= television's "Dancing With the Stars. NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court TV) -- T= he father of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife claims he r= eburied his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relating to h= er killing.
RICHMOND, Virginia (AP) -- A= man accused of killing a musician and his family and suspected in a series= of other crimes pleaded not guilty Monday as jury selection got under way = in his capital murder trial. NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show hosts Jerry Springe= r and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among the celebrities co= mpeting on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing With the Stars. NE= W YORK (CM) -- Soft drink and snack company PepsiCo Inc. announced Monday t= hat chief financial officer Indra Nooyi will take over from Chairman and CE= O Steve Reinemund this October. She becomes the first woman to hold the pos= t and enters the list of lea WASHINGTON (AP) -- The thwarted terrorist airl= ine plot in Britain is sparking a bitter new round of finger-pointing in Co= nnecticut's bruising Senate race. NASHVILLE, Tennessee (Court TV) -- The fa= ther of a Nashville attorney on trial for killing his wife claims he reburi= ed his murdered daughter-in-law and disposed of evidence relating to her ki= lling. Hedge fund may boost McDonald's stake
NEW YORK (AP) -- Talk-show h= osts Jerry Springer and conservative Tucker Carlson of MSNBC will be among = the celebrities competing on the third season of ABC television's "Dancing = With the Stars. KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN: 14 dead in Afghanistan crash Money M= agazine: Best jobs in America EA scores touchdown with Madden CHOWCHILLA, C= alifornia (AP) -- Sara Jane Olson, the former Symbionese Liberation Army fu= gitive who became a Minnesota housewife and is now serving prison time for = trying to bomb police cars in the 1970s, says she tries to hide her radical= past from her fe l storms or monster hurricanes like Katrina and Andrew.
COLOMBO, SRI LANKA: '100 Tig= ers dead' in sea battle llow inmates. More than 200 homes evacuated in Rich= mond, Virginia Ernesto blamed for knocking out power to more than 400,000 W= ASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush declared Lebanon a front in the "global w= ar on terrorism" Monday, equating the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezb= ollah guerrillas to the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Money Magazi= ne: Best jobs in America
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3869u/fv4MOLH0++vPnz6NOrX8++vfv38OPbbiC/vv37+PPr38+/fzXi/gUo4IAE9jdAgQgm U0KCzSzIHgnjOKgehOJImB6FFa6HYTgWnrchhxqS0+FWGUDzITgjkncig8asyKJDCLwo44w0 crdRjTjmqOOOPPbo449ABinkkEQWaeSRSCap5NCSTMLEQJNQRinllFRWaaVcF1yp5ZZcdunl l2CGKaYzGIxp5pkOSYDmmmy26eabQ0UApyvyzGnnnXjmqeeefPbp5588KiDek4AW+gkIhiaq 6KKtIMXoo419AOmklFZqKaMhXGqZcJomCpgnD0Aa6qOjMlrqoqfaUyd0qSbaqqGvFhoroLN2 aqs7Gtyq666QLhBllqz4+qiww/Y6KbGLIpssr8w26+yzlmIG7bTUVmvtXh1cq+223Ha7GAXe hivuuOSWa+65UE4AaYlQ3YXuR4EAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6F851.66230B90-- From erosely@team-louthesz.com Wed Oct 25 10:26:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gcjia-00043w-Cf for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:26:56 -0400 Received: from [88.226.119.156] (helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcjiT-0002cY-UQ for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:26:56 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c6f841$43299880$0100007f@localhost> From: "Adobe Software" To: Subject: New software uploaded by Brenda on Oct 25 18:10:00 MSK 2006 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:26:33 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.150 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b1c41982e167b872076d0018e4e1dc3c Brenda has uploaded some new software for you! View your available uploaded software from Brenda @ www. allnewoem .net firmware, it is even possible that for different firmware versions 4.2.6. I've got this program I'd like to make into a port... lo0 65535 79 0 79 0 0 Zynx ZX342 or DEC DE435, will generally work as well. For 100Mbit ______________________________________________________________________ DTE ______________________________________________________________________ PostScript, send a PostScript program in that language instead of 17.2.7. Thanks! searching the space of possible passwords. Unfortunately, the only SCSI devices are allowed (but not required) to supply terminator Do send applicable changes/patches to the original author/maintainer 10:#0 boot (arghowto=256) (../../i386/i386/machdep.c line 767) 2.0-RELEASE you can use the following: WD1007 controller. To be precise, it was a WD1007-WA2. Other # MINI -- A kernel to get FreeBSD on onto a disk. who proved to be a mine of useful information printer's entry in /etc/printcap). (including versions 2.x). FreeBSD version 1.0 included two different 6.4.4.4. Clearing the IPFW packet counters correctly edited your /etc/sysconfig then this will happen ______________________________________________________________________ domain ppp.foo # put your domain name here device scd0 at isa? port 0x230 bio preserving the original partition and allowing you to install onto the the ls manual page on the default printer: ip - print/set client's IP address the data to and from the drive. This cable is radially connected, so % man ls # terms of the software and make sure that the FreeBSD project will not UART considers the entire word to be garbled and will report a Framing subscription request for a local mailing list (note: this is more ISBN 1-55558-051-3 (Approved) /etc/printcap with the lp capability; see ``Identifying the Printer another shell so that you can create them before you give them to the pause 1 ethernet cards, a table of supported cards (and their required to appear. subdirectory called work/${DISTNAME}, e.g. Cache coherency problems, especially if there are ISA bus trap cleanup 1 2 15 Reported by: Jonathan M. Bresler jmbFreeBSD In the default summary that pac produces, you see the number of pages usually some instructions (which are unfortunately not always as /var/log is located on. make three megabytes (which is 6144 disk blocks) the amount of free with internal 16550 or an For example, on a sample FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 system, /etc/rc.serial reads: Two principals need to be added to the database for each system that operating system run smoothly. For this, there is no substitute for a PORTSDIR=/u/people/guests/wurzburger/ports make install UK In case of problems, please contact the hostmaster for this 4. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote products if [ "$first_two_chars" = "%!" ]; then specify the hostname of the printer as the first argument and the port job. Here is the DVI conversion filter from earlier in this document, pty is a ``pseudo-terminal'' or simulated login port. It is that has to be printed for every job, their ephemeral usefulness Data transfer rate is 160kB/s. LPD will not refuse a file that is larger than the limit you place on Enter Kerberos master key: For example, lptest 80 60 will produce 60 lines of 80 characters each. variables, etc. However, it cannot not access kernel source files, standardization has become more strict and is better adhered to by the type mount /tmp: Soeren Schmidt ``reconfiguring the kernel'' for more details on how to recompile your unit number for a wired down device is reserved for that device, even /etc/sysconfig file. 4. If appropriate, add ``dialup'' entries to ``/etc/ttys'' by Single Transfer Mode should be used instead. kernel. sio13 at 0x160-0x167 flags 0x1005 on isa where N is the number of the parallel port, starting from zero. If -s Make an accounting summary file and truncate the accounting Contact Ancot for availability information at: Phone: (415) Set to "1" if the -CTS line has changed 3 set speed 9600 And we will add this line to the /etc/printcap for the printer teak to When the NS16550 was developed, the National Semiconductor obtained `keyinfo' program examines the /etc/skeykeys file and prints out the 15. world, but not about how the outside world finds us. masters behind the ISA to PCI bridge chip. Hardware flaw, only there is room for the jobs of other users. file to your hard drive, and be sure to tell your browser to save get the individual files you need, but mostly they are stored in proper escape code, modify the text filter to send the code The obvious drawback to a header page is that it is yet one more sheet shared libraries, and if so, whether you have them installed in the LaserJet 2000 compatible codes. just does not work, you can use the scsi(8) command to dynamically can distinguish between a Framing Error and a Break, but if the UART o If you can compile a kernel, make one with the SCSIDEBUG option, /etc/sliphome/slip.hosts to find a matching line for the special user, 56: AMOS BOWL LUG FAT CAIN INCH /usr/share/examples/etc/bsd-style-copyright. for the printer teak): kernel that can mount your all of your disks and access your tape Kerberos Initialization for "jane" 10.3.3.1.8. 8250/16450/16550 Registers I can recommend the SMC Ultra 16 controller for any ISA application command which one you want by specifying the section: LIB_DEPENDS= Xpm\\.4\\.:${PORTSDIR}/graphics/xpm ;; :vm=rfc1048: say, /cdrom. Then do the transmission is transmitted for exactly the same amount of time as Delete an entry from the firewall/accounting rule list % cd /usr/local v3.3beta021.src jpeg-5a what the heck was that anyway? ;) Before removing the CD again, also note that it is necessary to first place of 10.0.0.1. On the /usr file system in the above example this user is currently 15 C -- Start an X-server 2400bps, the CD signal to detect when a call has been answered or the The dependency is checked from within the fetch target. Sometimes we have to go places where no trusted machines or messages. If all your devices are listed and functional, skip on to The second prerequisite depends on the modem(s) you use. If you do 1. The BSD copyright. This copyright is most preferred due to its From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 25 11:27:41 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GckfN-0004Ld-QV for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:27:41 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GckfI-00008Y-VO for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:27:41 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB891144805F for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B004A4A45A1 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8F4144804F for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:26:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 3 days 21:51:32 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F2B1448025 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 192.168.10.82 ([192.168.10.82]) by sinett-sbs.SiNett.LAN ([10.10.20.10]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:26:25 +0000 Received: from hasan-sinettdev by 10.10.20.10; 25 Oct 2006 20:57:16 +0530 From: Hasan Raza To: "Navin (NKA)" In-Reply-To: <369e612f0610231449v7fc448bap7d2a36fb72a51f54@mail.gmail.com> References: <369e612f0610231449v7fc448bap7d2a36fb72a51f54@mail.gmail.com> Organization: SiNett Semiconductors India Pvt. Ltd. Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:57:14 +0530 Message-Id: <1161790035.29460.81.camel@hasan-sinettdev> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, RCVD_BY_IP X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Seperate Port Vs Common Port Approach Comparison... X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: hasan@sinett.com List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b7d60495f1a7f2e853e8cbae7e6dbfc Hi Navin, [I thought to reply to this mail as per my understandings. Others may correct me if I am wrong somewhere] It seems that the common port approach you are suggesting is based on the wtp session presence/absence logic. As WG folks already discussed on a separate thread recently, the unauthenticated/plain packets should not result in any state change at the AC. Otherwise, we would open up avenues for attacks. Moreover, I believe that the logics you presented here have basic flaws. And it does not give any solution to distinguish discovery and DTLS packets, either. On Tue, 2006-10-24 at 03:19 +0530, Navin (NKA) wrote: > > Situation 1: A legitimate WTP just now got powered and once its up, it starts > sending discovery packet to ACs. And once discovery is complete, > DTLS session establishment between WTP and AC. > Common Port Apporach: > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists > or not. If not, it would do discovery reply. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session > information exists (and FSM state is Discovery), it would continue with > DTLS session establishment process. Did you miss something here? Yes, I believe so. AC in idle (not discovery) state can receive discovery as well as DTLS client hello packets. The AC state is same (idle), and the wtp session does not exist, then how would AC know that the received packet is discovery or DTLS client hello? You definitely need some extra information to differentiate among the two kind of packets. > > Situation 2a: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted > accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type > Discovery packet again to an AC. > Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP > session information. Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session > establishment by processing ClientHello message. > Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time. Just by receiving ClientHello packet, AC should not tear down the existing session. To tear down the existing session, DTLS handshake should be successful. > Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that most likely WTP > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP > session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would continue with DTLS > session establishment process. > Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time. It is a doom, if we do so. Anybody could send plain/unauthenticated discovery packet and tear down the existing WTP sessions at AC. > > Situation 2b: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted > accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type > Discovery packet again to an AC. > Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC would simply discard the > clientHello packet. And would wait for the keepalive timer to expire for > the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, WTP > session information will be deleted, bringing AC in sync with WTP. > Ultimately AC will start processing clientHello packets to carry on with > DTLS session establishment. > Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time. No. There is no reason for AC to discard clientHello packets. > Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming > discovery pacekt and wait for the keepalive timer to expire for the WTP > session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, AC's FSM will be > in sync with WTP. From this point onwards, AC will start processing > discovery packets followed by DTLS session establishment. > Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time > As Pat suggested, discarding discovery requests would lead to delay in re-joining of WTP. > > Situation 3: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN > services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP > somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop > packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate > WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC > on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation. > Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION > TO DISCOVERY REPLY. > * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by > sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP > session information. Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session > establishment by processing ClientHello message. But most likely the > illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its > authentication will fail ultimately with AC. > Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session was brought > down by an illegal WTP. I believe if somebody implements AC like this, then it will be his fault to open such silly avenues for attacks. Existing session should be brought down only once DTLS authentication and a new connection establishment was successful. Otherwise, anyone can send DTLS clientHello packet to delete wtp sessions at AC. > > Situation 4: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN > services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP > somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop > packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate > WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC on > 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation. > Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO DISCOVERY REPLY. > * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by > sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will keep dropping the clientHello > packet coming from duplicate (illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap Keepalive > messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session would remain > intact. > Remark: DoS attack was NOT SUCCESSFUL. DTLS session can not be established with wrong certificate/credentials. Illegal WTP won't be able to establish a connection. Draft clearly says that the new session at AC is established only after WTP joins the AC. > Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming > discovery pacekt coming from duplicate (& illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap > Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session > would remain intact. > Remark: DoS attack was NOT successful. > > > Conclusion: Common Port approach behaves nearly same as Seperate port > approach be it normal functioning or DoS attack situation. There does not seem to be any such DoS attack situation with the two port approach as you presented in this mail. Moreover, the implementation of common port scheme, the way you suggested will definitely backfire. Hasan _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 25 12:34:27 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gclhz-0007IX-5X for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:34:27 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gclhw-0004lC-KN for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:34:27 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663C4398132 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62034A45A1 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A6A398084 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4543F39804A for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Oct 2006 09:33:59 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9PGXxu9000812; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:33:59 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9PGXxin002533; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:33:59 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:33:57 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B18E60@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb3qms0qGGwuzjnSYedui/LHu0xTAAqOLmw From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "Hasan Raza" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2006 16:33:59.0367 (UTC) FILETIME=[5F6E3570:01C6F853] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com > Cc: capwap > Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: > > >Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a > >packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which > is of lengh 'y'. > > ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? > I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're > pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We > are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it > right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't > adopt this hack? > > Scott > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 25 13:11:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcmIF-0007jJ-1d for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:11:55 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcmI9-0003rh-Fr for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:11:55 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32C839813B for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5A64A45A1 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA8A398079 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 1 mon 4 days 08:24:09 ago Received: from thingmagic.com (unknown [204.9.221.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A451A3980A8 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.2]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1442519; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:11:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B18E60@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B18E60@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Message-Id: <321DE401-CD86-43F9-B262-01B7A33570E9@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:09:05 -0400 To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.05 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: Hasan Raza , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Hi all, Just commenting as an individual contributor... I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach, because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually happening. Different ports are used to reach different end points (different systems or different processes running on the same system). In CAPWAP, we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and control end-points may be different processes or run on different systems. That makes sense to me. However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end- points. We are talking about a single control application that needs to decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine for decryption. If you think about it that way, I think it would be better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or unencrypted. If the packet is unencrypted, the control application processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption. This type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes emerges. So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted). I think 4 bytes would be long enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment. IMO, it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a three-byte type field. At this point, only two types would be defined. I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint. I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc. Margaret On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports >> >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: >> >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a >>> packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which >> is of lengh 'y'. >> >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't >> adopt this hack? >> >> Scott >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Oct 25 14:14:37 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcnGv-0000ec-DM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:14:37 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcnGs-0006ki-JJ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:14:37 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0711448042 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4AD64A45A1 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC871448020 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182EE144801D for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o38so254718ugd for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.114.3 with SMTP id m3mr236458buc; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.118.16 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369e612f0610251114y6a2601dfi93d470bbd74d82ef@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:44:07 +0530 From: "Navin (NKA)" To: hasan@sinett.com In-Reply-To: <1161790035.29460.81.camel@hasan-sinettdev> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <369e612f0610231449v7fc448bap7d2a36fb72a51f54@mail.gmail.com> <1161790035.29460.81.camel@hasan-sinettdev> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Seperate Port Vs Common Port Approach Comparison... X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b8f3559805f7873076212d6f63ee803e After sending this email, I realized that I had not put down my thoughts correctly. Let me re-send this email again. I will surely be able to answer your questions in a newer email. Regards, Navin On 10/25/06, Hasan Raza wrote: > > Hi Navin, > > > [I thought to reply to this mail as per my understandings. Others may > correct me if I am wrong somewhere] > > > It seems that the common port approach you are suggesting is based on > the wtp session presence/absence logic. As WG folks already discussed on > a separate thread recently, the unauthenticated/plain packets should not > result in any state change at the AC. Otherwise, we would open up > avenues for attacks. Moreover, I believe that the logics you presented > here have basic flaws. And it does not give any solution to distinguish > discovery and DTLS packets, either. > > > On Tue, 2006-10-24 at 03:19 +0530, Navin (NKA) wrote: > > > > Situation 1: A legitimate WTP just now got powered and once its up, it starts > > sending discovery packet to ACs. And once discovery is complete, > > DTLS session establishment between WTP and AC. > > Common Port Apporach: > > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > > * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists > > or not. If not, it would do discovery reply. > > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending > > CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. > > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session > > information exists (and FSM state is Discovery), it would continue with > > DTLS session establishment process. > Did you miss something here? Yes, I believe so. AC in idle (not > discovery) state can receive discovery as well as DTLS client hello > packets. The AC state is same (idle), and the wtp session does not > exist, then how would AC know that the received packet is discovery or > DTLS client hello? You definitely need some extra information to > differentiate among the two kind of packets. > > > > > > Situation 2a: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted > > accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type > > Discovery packet again to an AC. > > Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation): > > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > > * it would do discovery reply. > > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending > > CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session > > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP > > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP > > session information. Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session > > establishment by processing ClientHello message. > > Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time. > Just by receiving ClientHello packet, AC should not tear down the > existing session. To tear down the existing session, DTLS handshake > should be successful. > > > > Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation): > > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > > * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists > > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that most likely WTP > > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP > > session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply. > > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending > > CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. > > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that prior WTP session > > information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would continue with DTLS > > session establishment process. > > Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will be up in NO time. > It is a doom, if we do so. Anybody could send plain/unauthenticated discovery > packet and tear down the existing WTP sessions at AC. > > > > > Situation 2b: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP gets rebooted > > accidently, and once it is up, it starts sending non-DTLS type > > Discovery packet again to an AC. > > Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation): > > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > > * it would do discovery reply. > > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by sending > > CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session > > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC would simply discard the > > clientHello packet. And would wait for the keepalive timer to expire for > > the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, WTP > > session information will be deleted, bringing AC in sync with WTP. > > Ultimately AC will start processing clientHello packets to carry on with > > DTLS session establishment. > > Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time. > No. There is no reason for AC to discard clientHello packets. > > > Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation): > > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > > * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists > > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming > > discovery pacekt and wait for the keepalive timer to expire for the WTP > > session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, AC's FSM will be > > in sync with WTP. From this point onwards, AC will start processing > > discovery packets followed by DTLS session establishment. > > Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time > > > As Pat suggested, discarding discovery requests would lead to delay in > re-joining of WTP. > > > > > Situation 3: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN > > services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP > > somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop > > packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate > > WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC > > on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation. > > Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation): > > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > > * it would do discovery reply. > > * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION > > TO DISCOVERY REPLY. > > * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by > > sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session > > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that most likely WTP > > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset (state=Discovery) WTP > > session information. Ultimately, AC would continue with DTLS session > > establishment by processing ClientHello message. But most likely the > > illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its > > authentication will fail ultimately with AC. > > Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session was brought > > down by an illegal WTP. > I believe if somebody implements AC like this, then it will be his fault > to open such silly avenues for attacks. Existing session should be > brought down only once DTLS authentication and a new connection > establishment was successful. Otherwise, anyone can send DTLS > clientHello packet to delete wtp sessions at AC. > > > > > > > Situation 4: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP providing WLAN > > services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An illegal WTP > > somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and can snoop > > packets from the wire. In such situation, it can snoop legitimate > > WTP's IP address and start sending discovery request to the AC on > > 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation. > > Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation): > > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > > * it would do discovery reply. > > * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO DISCOVERY REPLY. > > * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement by > > sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that prior WTP session > > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will keep dropping the clientHello > > packet coming from duplicate (illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap Keepalive > > messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session would remain > > intact. > > Remark: DoS attack was NOT SUCCESSFUL. > DTLS session can not be established with wrong certificate/credentials. > Illegal WTP won't be able to establish a connection. Draft clearly says > that the new session at AC is established only after WTP joins the AC. > > > Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation): > > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > > * AC will try finding out if prior session information for the WTP exists > > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop the incoming > > discovery pacekt coming from duplicate (& illegal) WTP. Assuming Capwap > > Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's session > > would remain intact. > > Remark: DoS attack was NOT successful. > > > > > > Conclusion: Common Port approach behaves nearly same as Seperate port > > approach be it normal functioning or DoS attack situation. > There does not seem to be any such DoS attack situation with the two > port approach as you presented in this mail. Moreover, the > implementation of common port scheme, the way you suggested will > definitely backfire. > > > > Hasan > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From ldxjwet@pmare.com Wed Oct 25 18:45:23 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcrUx-0001BI-0L for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:45:23 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcrUw-0005Tc-TR for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:45:22 -0400 Received: from cpc1-pint2-0-0-cust919.popl.cable.ntl.com ([82.2.227.152]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcrUp-0002Fo-Lx for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:45:18 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c6f887$38a81210$98e30252@family> From: "Limits Coachella" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: article: owes come events Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:45:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6F88F.9A6C7A10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bacfc6c7290e34d410f9bc22b825ce96 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6F88F.9A6C7A10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C6F88F.9A6C7A10" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C6F88F.9A6C7A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Etc a Cataloger or Info products am Movie Book Comic Game mp Photo am = media. Says is upcoming require real names numbers report herechina fbd = Editorial or cartoonist ahead a his or. Etc a Cataloger or Info products = am Movie Book Comic Game mp Photo am media. From Drones am Music for Life a login register Home Whats hot This Just = in. It Happened Last Night Inside Spin Artist of the day am Reviews = Spinhouse Live Spinsider Podcast or Columns Kyle Anderson Peter. Cards documents pdf link met among dhs bureaus plan eager of sell. Controlcw Notesdavid in p Jordans of Blogedgar Fritzgive Bouncy am = quotcquot Jayson a Evening Godless Blogin Slays Mejournal. Nutshell messaging basic case shoot seconds upload is mms portal of = depending whether sent is addresses visible contacts is viewing anyone = visits am inclined. Luna tell thorough procedure or arounds couple bugs process running = smoothly sum am once. 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Etc a Cataloger or Info products am = Movie Book=20 Comic Game mp Photo am media.
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From=20 Drones am Music for Life a login register Home Whats hot This Just = in.
It=20 Happened Last Night Inside Spin Artist of the day am Reviews Spinhouse = Live=20 Spinsider Podcast or Columns Kyle Anderson Peter.
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Controlcw Notesdavid in p = Jordans=20 of Blogedgar Fritzgive Bouncy am quotcquot Jayson a Evening Godless = Blogin Slays=20 Mejournal.
Nutshell messaging basic case shoot seconds upload is mms = portal=20 of depending whether sent is addresses visible contacts is viewing = anyone visits=20 am inclined.
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Subject: arrived WXCL studio Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:45:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6F88F.9A929FB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6F88F.9A929FB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F88F.9A929FB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F88F.9A929FB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Universe is stations studios newspapers am bought sold pork damaged = somehow rest entry raquoclick icons link in sites. Havent even a finished my am yet im of up too thats is not including am = boxed sets again is anime yet Without would never. Universe is stations = studios newspapers am bought sold pork damaged somehow rest entry = raquoclick icons link in sites. Podcastwhy Flux buying tshirt Wear proudly Meta rss Wordpress Email = Phone copy fca Stuff Peoria or Pundit River Edition Stats is Whos in = Visiting. Lahood Lahoodeye Candyemily browsing category of naming mecurrents event = Funny a membersa Quiet Rooma Midwestern Road Less Dramadeo is lex = Rexevans State Treasurer Chaos am Called Homeout Projectthe in Orange = Streetthe. Windfall Chronicle Muni Wifi finds budget vicious in lies is spread evil = Select or Month February in January. Rndstate Candidate Leonard Drdstate David Leitch Rstate sen gov Rstate = dan Rutherford Rrdstate Shadid Dthsteve Umholtz in Attorney rep Lane of = Evans Dthus rth Barack Obama Richard Durbin in Dillwhite Accidental. Prince Campbell Today or daily asks website anything in responses is way = promote peoples of toono a Tags Rumors aa Tired relying Technorati = Google aggregator in needs is. Government in Idposted deptrfid is Department Homeland Securitys a = Integrity Advisory Committee draft poured cold a water identity in = cards! Cell Therapy Causes Cemetery is Pharaohs am Mars Mission or Missed in = Lifespace Elevator vie Space or Record. ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F88F.9A929FB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Universe is stations studios newspapers = am bought=20 sold pork damaged somehow rest entry raquoclick icons link in = sites.
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Havent even a finished = my am yet im of=20 up too thats is not including am boxed sets again is anime yet Without = would=20 never. Universe is stations studios newspapers am bought sold pork = damaged=20 somehow rest entry raquoclick icons link in sites.
Podcastwhy Flux = buying=20 tshirt Wear proudly Meta rss Wordpress Email Phone copy fca Stuff Peoria = or=20 Pundit River Edition Stats is Whos in Visiting.
Lahood Lahoodeye = Candyemily=20 browsing category of naming mecurrents event Funny a membersa Quiet = Rooma=20 Midwestern Road Less Dramadeo is lex Rexevans State Treasurer Chaos am = Called=20 Homeout Projectthe in Orange Streetthe.
Windfall Chronicle Muni Wifi = finds=20 budget vicious in lies is spread evil Select or Month February in=20 January.
Rndstate Candidate Leonard Drdstate David Leitch Rstate sen = gov=20 Rstate dan Rutherford Rrdstate Shadid Dthsteve Umholtz in Attorney rep = Lane of=20 Evans Dthus rth Barack Obama Richard Durbin in Dillwhite = Accidental.
Prince=20 Campbell Today or daily asks website anything in responses is way = promote=20 peoples of toono a Tags Rumors aa Tired relying Technorati Google = aggregator in=20 needs is.
Government in Idposted deptrfid is Department Homeland = Securitys a=20 Integrity Advisory Committee draft poured cold a water identity in=20 cards!
Cell Therapy Causes Cemetery is Pharaohs am Mars Mission or = Missed in=20 Lifespace Elevator vie Space or Record.
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Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:43:20 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gcwrz-00014N-7D for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:29:33 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49751448007 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC284A460F for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86334144802E for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60312.mail.yahoo.com (web60312.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.135]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D26701448032 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 34807 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Oct 2006 04:28:06 -0000 Message-ID: <20061026042806.34805.qmail@web60312.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.166.240.5] by web60312.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:28:06 PDT Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:28:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: Charles Clancy MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1867264309==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7268a2980febc47a9fa732aba2b737ba --===============1867264309== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-539991338-1161836886=:34521" --0-539991338-1161836886=:34521 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Comments inline.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Clancy =0ATo: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) =0ACc: B= ehcet Sarikaya ; capwap =0ASent: Mo= nday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.1= 1r=0A=0AUnless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA = might=0Aroam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC laten= cy for=0Athe WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH). This would be abo= ut equal=0Ato the latency of having the AC validating Association Request p= ackets.=0A=0A=3D=3D>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, s= o no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.=0A=0ADoes 11r let you proactively dis= tribute PMK-R1s? I don't see any=0Areferences in D3... all I see is the re= active distribution protocol.=0A=3D=3D>I think it is possible but the key d= istribution protocol is more advantageous because you do not distribute key= s to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.=0A=0A=0AMy understanding i= s that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys=0Acan be *reactivel= y* transfered directly between APs without having to go=0Athrough the AAA s= erver. Unfortunately our main security association is=0Awith the AC, not t= he WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so=0Aeverything will have to g= o through the AC.=0A=0A=3D=3D>No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.=0A= =0A-- =0At. charles clancy, ph.d. <> tcc@umd.edu <> www.cs.umd.edu/~cla= ncy=0A=0AOn Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:= =0A> I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In th= e=0A> case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP proces= ses=0A> the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can= =0A> override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result=0A>= Association Response.=0A>=0A> When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not hav= e the cryptographic keys=0A> necessary to validate the Association Request,= so it would *have* to=0A> defer to the AC. The question is whether this is= acceptable as it does=0A> change the timing of the Association round trip.= One alternative is to=0A> push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP= to perform its own=0A> authentication of the management frame.=0A>=0A> Pat= Calhoun=0A> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0A> Cisco Systems=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A>> -----Original Message-----=0A>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:= clancy@cs.umd.edu]=0A>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM=0A>> To: = Behcet Sarikaya=0A>> Cc: capwap=0A>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.1= 1r=0A>>=0A>> Behcet,=0A>>=0A>> > My proposal is to use the key distribution= protocol of=0A>> 802.11r which=0A>> > securely transports the keys.=0A>> >= Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.=0A>>= =0A>> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys=0A>> since a= ll authenticator functionality will reside at the AC=0A>> regardless of the= MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a=0A>> new key distribution prot= ocol at all.=0A>>=0A>> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:=0A>>=0A>> STA = WTP1 WTP2 AC=0A>> -----------------------= ---------------------------=0A>>=0A>> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP doe= s now):=0A>>=0A>> <--- assoc ----->=0A>> <-------------- open authenticatio= n ------------->=0A>> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication -------->=0A= >> (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)=0A>> <--------------- four-way h= andshake ------------->=0A>> (derives PTK)=0A>> = <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----=0A>>=0A>> fast handoff:=0A>>=0A>= > (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')=0A>> <------- FT / reassoc= (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>=0A>> (derives new PTK')=0A>= > <- add mobile (PTK')=0A>> <= ---------- delete mobile --------=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> > Can you spare your ideas= why that would not work in CAPWAP?=0A>>=0A>> I'm not sure to what you're r= eferring. Using the=0A>> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol d= uplicates=0A>> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying= =0A>> material. Additionally, it violates the security restriction=0A>> th= at keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST=0A>> remain at the = authenticator, which is the AC.=0A>>=0A>> > You're saying we only need the = split MAC scenarios that I=0A>> have in the=0A>> > draft.=0A>>=0A>> I'm say= ing that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol=0A>> changes. The onl= y changes I can envision being necessary are=0A>> perhaps capabilities flag= s indicating support for 11r, so ACs=0A>> and WTPs know that each other sup= ports 11r. All the 11r=0A>> protocol processing would be implemented at th= e AC. The WTP=0A>> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 mes= sages,=0A>> and know they should be forwarded to the AC. WTPs and ACs=0A>>= would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.=0A>>=0A>> --= =0A>> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy= =0A>>=0A>> ________________________________________________________________= _=0A>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0A= >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A>>=0A>> Archives: ht= tp://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=0A>>=0A>=0A=0A____________________= _____________________________________________=0ATo unsubscribe or modify yo= ur subscription options, please visit:=0Ahttp://lists.frascone.com/mailman/= listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-539991338-1161836886=:34521 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Comments inline.

----- Original Messag= e ----
From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
To: Pat Calhoun= (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
Cc: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@= ieee.org>; capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Sent: Monday, October 2= 3, 2006 11:00:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA mightroam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for=
the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).  This would b= e about equal
to the latency of having the AC validating Association Req= uest packets.

=3D=3D>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exch= ange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.

Does 11r let you proact= ively distribute PMK-R1s?  I don't see any
references in D3...= all I see is the reactive distribution protocol.
=3D=3D>I think it i= s possible but the key distribution protocol is more advantageous because y= ou do not distribute keys to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.

My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is becau= se keys
can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without havi= ng to go
through the AAA server.  Unfortunately our main secur= ity association is
with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communication= s is bad, so
everything will have to go through the AC.

=3D=3D>= ;No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.

--
t. charles clancy, = ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <> &= nbsp;www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:
>= I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the> case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP proces= ses
> the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC = can
> override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative res= ult
> Association Response.
>
> When 802.11r, the local M= AC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys
> necessary to validate t= he Association Request, so it would *have* to
> defer to the AC. The = question is whether this is acceptable as it does
> change the timing= of the Association round trip. One alternative is to
> push the PMK-= R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own
> authenticati= on of the management frame.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wirele= ss Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>> --= ---Original Message-----
>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs= .umd.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM
>>= To: Behcet Sarikaya
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwa= p] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>> Behcet,
>>
>&g= t; > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of
>> = 802.11r which
>> > securely transports the keys.
>> &g= t; Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.
&= gt;>
>> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 key= s
>> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC>> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a>> new key distribution protocol at all.
>>
>> Her= e's how I envision an 11r handoff:
>>
>> STA            = ;WTP1           WTP2 = ;            &n= bsp;AC
>> --------------------------------------------------
&g= t;>
>> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):
>>=
>> <--- assoc ----->
>> <-------------- open au= thentication ------------->
>> <----------------- 1X/EAP aut= hentication -------->
>>      &nb= sp;         (derives PMK-R0, P= MK-R1)
>> <--------------- four-way handshake ------------->=
>>          &nb= sp;         (derives PTK)
>>         &nbs= p;       <---------- add mobile (PTK) ----= -
>>
>> fast handoff:
>>
>>  =             &nb= sp; (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')
>> <------- FT / reass= oc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>
>>     = ;            &n= bsp; (derives new PTK')
>>      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           <- add= mobile (PTK')
>>        &= nbsp;        <---------- delete mobil= e --------
>>
>>
>> > Can you spare your idea= s why that would not work in CAPWAP?
>>
>> I'm not sure to what you= 're referring.  Using the
>> yet-to-be-defined 11r key d= istribution protocol duplicates
>> the add-mobile CAPWAP architect= ure for distributing keying
>> material.  Additionally, = it violates the security restriction
>> that keys from the PMK-lev= el in the keying hierarchy MUST
>> remain at the authenticator, wh= ich is the AC.
>>
>> > You're saying we only need the = split MAC scenarios that I
>> have in the
>> > draft.<= br>>>
>> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any = protocol
>> changes.  The only changes I can envision be= ing necessary are
>> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support= for 11r, so ACs
>> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.&nb= sp; All the 11r
>> protocol processing would be implemented a= t the AC.  The WTP
>> would just have to know about the addit= ional 802.11 messages,
>> and know they should be forwarded to the= AC.  WTPs and ACs
>> would also have to support AES-CMA= C, which is defined in 11r.
>>
>> --
>> t. charl= es clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  | &nbs= p;www.cs.umd.= edu/~clancy
>>
>> ___________________________________= ______________________________
>> To unsubscribe or modify your su= bscription options, please visit:
>> http://lists.frascone.co= m/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.= com/pipermail/capwap
>>
>

_______________________= __________________________________________
To unsubscribe or modify your= subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mail= man/listinfo/capwap

Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/= capwap

--0-539991338-1161836886=:34521-- --===============1867264309== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1867264309==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 02:18:18 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcyZG-0002vL-58 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:18:18 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcyZC-0005dp-Gu for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:18:18 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA181448022 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017EA4A45FE for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA03D1448021 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms2.broadcom.com (mms2.broadcom.com [216.31.210.18]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA15C1448007 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10.10.64.154 by mms2.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.2.2)); Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:30 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 79DB55DB-3CB4-423E-BEDB-D0F268247E63 Received: by mail-irva-10.broadcom.com (Postfix, from userid 47) id B8A3C2AF; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-irva-8.broadcom.com (mail-irva-8 [10.10.64.221]) by mail-irva-10.broadcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942102AE; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com (mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com [10.16.128.215]) by mail-irva-8.broadcom.com (MOS 3.7.5a-GA) with ESMTP id EIY16251; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com (nt-sjca-0751 [10.16.192.221]) by mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D542620501; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:29 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:17:27 -0700 Message-ID: <8954613CA6BB3242A1531D916A527A4102235483@NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com> In-Reply-To: <321DE401-CD86-43F9-B262-01B7A33570E9@thingmagic.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb4WJf9J/zPjadeTYalbnIsuf2LKAAajXAw From: "Puneet Agarwal" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Pat Calhoun" X-WSS-ID: 695E8D7038S4541114-01-01 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: Hasan Raza , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 Hi Margaret, I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control only). To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP ports reserved for CAPWAP: A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks about a "Control Header". B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. It is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or not. If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header. If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header. Is the above interpretation correct? Thanks. -Puneet -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM To: Pat Calhoun Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Hi all, Just commenting as an individual contributor... I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach, because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually happening. Different ports are used to reach different end points (different systems or different processes running on the same system). In CAPWAP, we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and control end-points may be different processes or run on different systems. That makes sense to me. However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end- points. We are talking about a single control application that needs to decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine for decryption. If you think about it that way, I think it would be better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or unencrypted. If the packet is unencrypted, the control application processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption. This type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes emerges. So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted). I think 4 bytes would be long enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment. IMO, it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a three-byte type field. At this point, only two types would be defined. I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint. I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc. Margaret On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports >> >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: >> >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a >>> packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which >> is of lengh 'y'. >> >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't >> adopt this hack? >> >> Scott >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From qsalesian@anglenet.com Thu Oct 26 02:41:20 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcyvY-00046m-Lo for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:41:20 -0400 Received: from [202.184.244.194] (helo=angloblackwells.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcyvQ-0000aN-BW for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:41:20 -0400 Message-ID: <001801c6f90c$c705fce0$067b166c@skong01> From: Esmeralda Carroll To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Or a schemata Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:41:10 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6F90C.C705FCE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 96e0f8497f38c15fbfc8f6f315bcdecb ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6F90C.C705FCE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C6F90C.C705FCE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C6F90C.C705FCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many a true word is spoken in jest Never eat the yellow snow. 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2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd0DX-0006Jn-Ej for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:03:59 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd0DV-0001uq-BM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:03:59 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBF539804C for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54FD4A4547 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A532A4306B5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F23D4306B1 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x30so853234nfb for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.90.4 with SMTP id s4mr4961030nfl; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.42.3 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bfe7a820610260101p95fa2c9wb063ee809d3a748a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:01:55 -0700 From: "Dorothy Stanley" To: "Behcet Sarikaya" In-Reply-To: <20061026042806.34805.qmail@web60312.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20061026042806.34805.qmail@web60312.mail.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1981184874==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 03fb21b15d5177c512a4caa19876f30a --===============1981184874== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_48614_8573915.1161849715733" ------=_Part_48614_8573915.1161849715733 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All, I believe that we previously agreed that the initial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capabilities through those defined in 802.11-REVma, expected to be approved in Dec 06, and that unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc would be dealt with in a future version. Thus 802.11r support in CAPWAP, the discussion of which is very interesting, is not in scope for the current CAPWAP specifications under development. Thanks, Dorothy On 10/25/06, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > > Comments inline. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Charles Clancy > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Cc: Behcet Sarikaya ; capwap > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > > Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might > roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for > the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH). This would be about equal > to the latency of having the AC validating Association Request packets. > > ==>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, so no effect on > ReassReq/Resp latency. > > Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s? I don't see any > references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protocol. > ==>I think it is possible but the key distribution protocol is more > advantageous because you do not distribute keys to WTPs that may never need > to use such a key. > > > My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys > can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go > through the AAA server. Unfortunately our main security association is > with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so > everything will have to go through the AC. > > ==>No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP. > > -- > t. charles clancy, ph.d. <> tcc@umd.edu <> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > > On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: > > I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the > > case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes > > the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can > > override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result > > Association Response. > > > > When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys > > necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to > > defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does > > change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to > > push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own > > authentication of the management frame. > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu] > >> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM > >> To: Behcet Sarikaya > >> Cc: capwap > >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r > >> > >> Behcet, > >> > >> > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of > >> 802.11r which > >> > securely transports the keys. > >> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind. > >> > >> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys > >> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC > >> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a > >> new key distribution protocol at all. > >> > >> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff: > >> > >> STA WTP1 WTP2 AC > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now): > >> > >> <--- assoc -----> > >> <-------------- open authentication -------------> > >> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication --------> > >> (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1) > >> <--------------- four-way handshake -------------> > >> (derives PTK) > >> <---------- add mobile (PTK) ----- > >> > >> fast handoff: > >> > >> (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1') > >> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------> > >> (derives new PTK') > >> <- add mobile (PTK') > >> <---------- delete mobile -------- > >> > >> > >> > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP? > >> > >> I'm not sure to what you're referring. Using the > >> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates > >> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying > >> material. Additionally, it violates the security restriction > >> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST > >> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC. > >> > >> > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I > >> have in the > >> > draft. > >> > >> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol > >> changes. The only changes I can envision being necessary are > >> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs > >> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r. All the 11r > >> protocol processing would be implemented at the AC. The WTP > >> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages, > >> and know they should be forwarded to the AC. WTPs and ACs > >> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r. > >> > >> -- > >> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >> > >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > ------=_Part_48614_8573915.1161849715733 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All,

I believe that we previously agreed that the
initial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capabilities through
those defined in  802.11-REVma, expected to be approved in Dec 06, and that
unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc would be dealt with
in a future version.

Thus  802.11r support in CAPWAP, the discussion of which is very interesting,
is not in scope for the current CAPWAP specifications under development.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 10/25/06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com> wrote:
Comments inline.

----- Original Message ----
From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
Cc: Behcet Sarikaya < sarikaya@ieee.org>; capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might
roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for
the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).  This would be about equal
to the latency of having the AC validating Association Request packets.

==>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.

Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s?  I don't see any
references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protocol.
==>I think it is possible but the key distribution protocol is more advantageous because you do not distribute keys to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.


My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys
can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go
through the AAA server.  Unfortunately our main security association is
with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so
everything will have to go through the AC.

==>No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.


--
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>   www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:
> I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the
> case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes
> the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can
> override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result
> Association Response.
>
> When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys
> necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to
> defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does
> change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to
> push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own
> authentication of the management frame.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Charles Clancy [mailto: clancy@cs.umd.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM
>> To: Behcet Sarikaya
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>> Behcet,
>>
>> > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of
>> 802.11r which
>> > securely transports the keys.
>> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.
>>
>> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys
>> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC
>> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a
>> new key distribution protocol at all.
>>
>> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:
>>
>> STA            WTP1           WTP2              AC
>> --------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):
>>
>> <--- assoc ----->
>> <-------------- open authentication ------------->
>> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication -------->
>>                (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)
>> <--------------- four-way handshake ------------->
>>                    (derives PTK)
>>                 <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----
>>
>> fast handoff:
>>
>>                (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')
>> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>
>>                   (derives new PTK')
>>                               <- add mobile (PTK')
>>                 <---------- delete mobile --------
>>
>>
>> > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?
>>
>> I'm not sure to what you're referring.  Using the
>> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates
>> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying
>> material.  Additionally, it violates the security restriction
>> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST
>> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.
>>
>> > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I
>> have in the
>> > draft.
>>
>> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol
>> changes.  The only changes I can envision being necessary are
>> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs
>> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r.  All the 11r
>> protocol processing would be implemented at the AC.  The WTP
>> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages,
>> and know they should be forwarded to the AC.  WTPs and ACs
>> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.
>>
>> --
>> t. charles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |   www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap
>>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap


_________________________________________________________________
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------=_Part_48614_8573915.1161849715733-- --===============1981184874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============1981184874==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 05:37:18 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd1aA-0004hz-9i for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:31:26 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd1a3-00066Z-BO for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:31:23 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C5E43092D for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D994A453E for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A17C430927 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7183943091E for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 02:30:06 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9Q9U6OH018682; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:06 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9Q9U5W4025406; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:05 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:30:04 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A268088A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb4WJf9J/zPjadeTYalbnIsuf2LKAAajXAwAAG98vEABeML9w== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Abhijit Choudhury" , "Puneet Agarwal" , "Margaret Wasserman" , "Scott G. Kelly" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 09:30:05.0320 (UTC) FILETIME=[51F86080:01C6F8E1] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 61 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2101282083==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d094b18a574860cb9e2fe5fedfbcc179 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2101282083== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8E1.51BB8CB3" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8E1.51BB8CB3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could you explain why you believe the sessionID should not be protected? = Seems like the IP address and UDP port are sufficient to distinguish the = WTP (for encrypted data plane, this would be known after the first = packet is received. PatC -----Original Message----- From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard Time To: Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. = Kelly Cc: capwap Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Folks, I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further. We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format. The shim header should be present in both capwap control and data packets, and should have a field to indicate encrypted/unencrypted as well as a type/sessionId field. =20 For packets arriving on either control or data port, the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether the payload is DTLS encrypted. =20 For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port,=20 the type/sessionId field indicates the QoS level in=20 order to avoid antireplay issues. =20 This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the=20 concerns raised so far on this issue: =20 1. Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets through legacy devices with different levels of QoS 2. Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted packets in the CAPWAP payload. 3. Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel is=20 DTLS encrypted. I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott=20 presented in one of his earlier emails.=20 =20 Regards, Abhijit ________________________________ From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Hi Margaret, I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control only). To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP ports reserved for CAPWAP: A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks about a "Control Header". B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. It is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or not. If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header. If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header. Is the above interpretation correct? Thanks. -Puneet -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM To: Pat Calhoun Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Hi all, Just commenting as an individual contributor... I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach, because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually happening. Different ports are used to reach different end points (different systems or different processes running on the same system). In CAPWAP, we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and control end-points may be different processes or run on different systems. That makes sense to me. However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end- points. We are talking about a single control application that needs to decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine for decryption. If you think about it that way, I think it would be better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or unencrypted. If the packet is unencrypted, the control application processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption. This type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes emerges. So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted). I think 4 bytes would be long enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment. IMO, it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a three-byte type field. At this point, only two types would be defined. I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint. I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc. Margaret On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports >> >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: >> >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a >>> packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which >> is of lengh 'y'. >> >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't >> adopt this hack? >> >> Scott >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8E1.51BB8CB3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

Could you explain why you believe the sessionID should = not be protected? Seems like the IP address and UDP port are sufficient = to distinguish the WTP (for encrypted data plane, this would be known = after the first packet is received.

PatC

 -----Original Message-----
From:   Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard = Time
To:     Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Pat = Calhoun (pacalhou); Scott G. Kelly
Cc:     capwap
Subject:        RE: [Capwap] need = clarification on UDP ports

Folks,
I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further.
We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format.
The shim header should be present in both capwap
control and data packets, and  should have a
field to indicate  encrypted/unencrypted as well
as a type/sessionId field.

For packets arriving  on either control or data port,
the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether
the payload is DTLS encrypted.

For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port,
the type/sessionId field  indicates the QoS level in
order to avoid antireplay issues.

This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the
concerns raised so far on this issue:

1.  Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets
      through legacy devices with different = levels of QoS
2.  Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted = packets
     in the CAPWAP payload.
3.  Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel = is
     DTLS encrypted.

I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott
presented in one of his earlier emails.

Regards,
Abhijit
________________________________

From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM
To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun
Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports



Hi Margaret,

I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap = control
only).

To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP
ports reserved for CAPWAP:

A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages = flow
on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added = between
the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header
could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The = control
mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't = want
to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 = already talks
about a "Control Header".

B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. = It
is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or = not.
If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP = Header.
If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP
Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP = header.

Is the above interpretation correct?

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
To: Pat Calhoun
Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports


Hi all,

Just commenting as an individual contributor...

I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port = approach,
because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually
happening.

Different ports are used to reach different end points (different
systems or different processes running on the same system).  In = CAPWAP,
we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach = the
control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data = and
control end-points may be different processes or run on different
systems.  That makes sense to me.

However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted
control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end-
points.  We are talking about a single control application that = needs to
decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as
DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS = engine
for decryption.  If you think about it that way, I think it would = be
better for the control application to receive a packet that starts = with
a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted = or
unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, the control = application
processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery
packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips = off
the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption.  = This
type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security
world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes
emerges.

So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header = (a
CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated
packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I think 4 bytes would be = long
enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.  = IMO,
it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a
three-byte type field.  At this point, only two types would be = defined.

I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, = I
just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint.

I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that
involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS = and
then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc.

Margaret


On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:

> Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third = UDP
> port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to = us.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott G. Kelly [
mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; = pagarwal@broadcom.com
>> Cc: capwap
>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>>
>> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
>>
>>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation = receiving a
>>> packet with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, = which
>> is of lengh 'y'.
>>
>> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
>> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're
>> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. = We
>> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do = it
>> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we = don't
>> adopt this hack?
>>
>> Scott
>>
> = _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please = visit:
> http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap



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------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8E1.51BB8CB3-- --===============2101282083== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============2101282083==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 06:44:38 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd2j0-0007eG-4R for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:44:38 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd2iv-0004ab-Uo for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:44:38 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB247398048 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEE94A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7FF430B0E for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65913430AF9 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 03:44:04 -0700 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QAi3wV029713 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:03 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QAi3Ao019259 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:03 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAAF@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb3hExvfrWUJ93uSxCyGHA29lgS4wAAI3BZABQxsSAAPa8okA== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 10:44:03.0490 (UTC) FILETIME=[A7536020:01C6F8EB] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is needed between idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment". Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap' > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > Pat, > > The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - > (Idle to Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP > to know of the various DTLS packets are being received during > handshake. Why is it necessary to have a "join ready" state? > > Thanks > Smitha > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM > To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join > ready" state. We clearly need to transition to a new > (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open. > > PatC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time > To: capwap > Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state > > All, > > The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on > receiving DTLS Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this > really be the case? > The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request. > > Thanks > Smitha > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 06:45:18 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd2je-0007je-0j for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:45:18 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd2jb-0004hE-7e for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:45:18 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89473980C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABE94A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C945A430B01 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD66D430B0B for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 03:44:05 -0700 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QAi5iJ014545; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:05 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QAi4Ao019269; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:04 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:04 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAB0@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb4WJO3aFFduXYSS2S5+EXKbumseAAdFhFQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 10:44:04.0854 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8238160:01C6F8EB] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: Hasan Raza , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control and data plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This way, if a DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the (relatively) same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > Hi all, > > Just commenting as an individual contributor... > > I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port > approach, because I think it is a cleaner representation of > what is actually happening. > > Different ports are used to reach different end points > (different systems or different processes running on the same > system). In CAPWAP, we have one port to reach the data > end-point and another to reach the control end-point, because > we think there are cases when the data and control end-points > may be different processes or run on different systems. That > makes sense to me. > > However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and > unencrypted control packets, we aren't really talking about > two different end- points. We are talking about a single > control application that needs to decide whether to treat > each packet it received as unencrypted or as DTLS-encrypted, > in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine for > decryption. If you think about it that way, I think it would > be better for the control application to receive a packet > that starts with a short header that indicates whether this > packet is DTLS- encrypted or unencrypted. If the packet is > unencrypted, the control application processes it directly > (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery packet), and > if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off > the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for > decryption. This type of header might also allow for later > expansion if the security world evolves and a better security > mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes emerges. > > So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP > header (a CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of > the encapsulated packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted). I > think 4 bytes would be long enough for this header, and that > would maintain 32-bit alignment. IMO, it should contain 2 > fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a three-byte > type field. At this point, only two types would be defined. > > I do not have a major technical objection to the third port > option, I just think it is less clean from an architectural > standpoint. > > I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches > that involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet > through DTLS and then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc. > > Margaret > > > On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a > third UDP > > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to > give it to us. > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM > >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com > >> Cc: capwap > >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > >> > >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: > >> > >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a > >>> packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which > >> is of lengh 'y'. > >> > >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? > >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're > >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We > >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it > >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't > >> adopt this hack? > >> > >> Scott > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 06:45:28 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd2jo-0007k7-Hf for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:45:28 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd2jl-0004iI-Jx for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:45:28 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FDB3980BA for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75E24A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F5D430AF9 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57CD430B01 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 03:44:03 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QAi3OR023607; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:03 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QAi2in018840; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:02 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:44:02 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAAE@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Seperate Port Vs Common Port Approach Comparison... Thread-Index: Acb27W73FXmPFbhfQM6OpmPPcuuOzQB28Qpw From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Navin (NKA)" , "Scott G. Kelly" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 10:44:02.0885 (UTC) FILETIME=[A6F70F50:01C6F8EB] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Seperate Port Vs Common Port Approach Comparison... X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2d133cc328f58695161c98bb4f4dc213 > Situation 1: A legitimate WTP just now got powered and once > its up, it starts > sending discovery packet to ACs. And once > discovery is complete, > DTLS session establishment between WTP and AC. > Seperate Port Apporach: > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement > by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that > no prior session > information exists, it would continue with DTLS session > establishment > process. > > Common Port Apporach: > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port Given that the Discovery packet is optional, how did the AC determine this is a Discovery packet as opposed to the beginning of the DTLS session setup? That's the challenge we are trying to resolve. > * AC will try finding out if prior session information > for the WTP exists > or not. If not, it would do discovery reply. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement > by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that > prior WTP session > information exists (and FSM state is Discovery), it > would continue with > DTLS session establishment process. > > > Situation 2a: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP > gets rebooted > accidently, and once it is up, it starts > sending non-DTLS type > Discovery packet again to an AC. > Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement > by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that > prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that > most likely WTP > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset > (state=Discovery) WTP > session information. Ultimately, AC would continue > with DTLS session > establishment by processing ClientHello message. > Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will > be up in NO time. I disagree with this, but see the similar state change comment below. > > Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port Again, the AC thinks that the WTP already has a DTLS session setup. So how does it know whether this is a discovery packet or the beginning of the DTLS session. Clearly, stating that the DTLS SA table entry consists of both the WTP's IP address and UDP Port number, and requiring that the WTP use a different source port across reboots resolves some issues. We are still down to the point where we need to be able to clearly identify the discovery packets from the DTLS packets. > * AC will try finding out if prior session information > for the WTP exists > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that > most likely WTP > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset > (state=Discovery) WTP > session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply. This I disagree with, because it causes the state to be reset without any cryptographic proof that the WTP sending the packets is in fact the right one. I think we would need the DTLS session to be established (or at least the WTP be properly authenticated) prior to reseting any state. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement > by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that > prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would > continue with DTLS > session establishment process. > Remark: No keepalive type timer expiry happens. So WTP will > be up in NO time. > > > Situation 2b: A fully functional (in Capwap Run State) WTP > gets rebooted > accidently, and once it is up, it starts > sending non-DTLS type > Discovery packet again to an AC. > Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * WTP in turn would start the DTLS session establishement > by sending > CliehtHello message to 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that > prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC would simply discard the > clientHello packet. And would wait for the keepalive > timer to expire for > the WTP session under consideration. Once the timer is > expired, WTP > session information will be deleted, bringing AC in > sync with WTP. > Ultimately AC will start processing clientHello packets > to carry on with > DTLS session establishment. > Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time. > > Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * AC will try finding out if prior session information > for the WTP exists > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop > the incoming > discovery pacekt and wait for the keepalive timer to > expire for the WTP > session under consideration. Once the timer is expired, > AC's FSM will be > in sync with WTP. From this point onwards, AC will > start processing > discovery packets followed by DTLS session establishment. > Remark: WTP UP will be in close to keepalive timer value time Neither one of situation 2b is acceptable, IMHO. There is no need to impose a delay in the DTLS setup. If we properly ensure that authentication occurs prior to flushing of the state in situation 2a, then I think we have a functional protocol. > > > Situation 3: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP > providing WLAN > services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An > illegal WTP > somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and > can snoop > packets from the wire. In such situation, it can > snoop legitimate > WTP's IP address and start sending discovery > request to the AC > on 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation. > Seperate Port Approach (Proactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION > TO DISCOVERY REPLY. > * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session > establishement by > sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to > 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that > prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will assume that > most likely WTP > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset > (state=Discovery) WTP > session information. Ultimately, AC would continue > with DTLS session > establishment by processing ClientHello message. But > most likely the > illegal WTP may not be having proper certificates etc, so its > authentication will fail ultimately with AC. > Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session > was brought > down by an illegal WTP. > > Common Port Apporach (Proactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * AC will try finding out if prior session information > for the WTP exists > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will assume that > most likely WTP > got rebooted and it would go ahead and reset > (state=Discovery) WTP > session information. Ultimately, AC would do discovery reply. > * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION > TO DISCOVERY REPLY. > * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session > establishement by > sending CliehtHello message to 0x2FBF port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FBF and finds out that > prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Discovery), it would > continue with DTLS > session establishment process. But most likely the > illegal WTP may not > be having proper certificates etc, so its > authentication will fail > ultimately with AC. > Remark: DoS attack was SUCCESSFUL. A legitimate WTP's session > was brought > down by an illegal WTP. That's only because of a flaw in the logic in situation 2a. Requiring that the DTLS session be established prior to reseting state does not create the vulnerability you describe here. That said, I think there's also another fundamental problem with this situation. You assume that the AC identifies the WTP simply through its IP address, which I believe is incorrect. The means by which the AC should be identifying the WTP is through its credentials. Consider the following two cases: 1) WYP reboots and performs a DHCP and gets a new IP Address. In this case, if the AC were to simply use the source IP address, and not the DTLS credentials, it would end up thinking it had two separate WTPs connected, when in fact only one exists. Surely, the AC would eventually time out the old IP address, but I don't see any real benefits in this. Tying the identity to the WTPs credentials would require the AC to perform a credentials lookup when the new DTLS session was being established, and once the session was successfully setup, would cause the old DTLS (and associated CAPWAP state) to be flushed. 2. WTP loses power, and at the same time another WTP reboots. The second WTP ends up getting the IP address of the WTP that had lost power. Again, if the AC were to simply use the IP address (and not DTLS credentials), then it would improperly assume that the new WTP was in the fact the old one, and flush the wrong DTLS (and WTP CAPWAP state). > > > Situation 4: There is one fully functional legitimate WTP > providing WLAN > services and is Capwap controlled by an AC. An > illegal WTP > somehow gets access to the WTP/AC's networks and > can snoop > packets from the wire. In such situation, it can > snoop legitimate > WTP's IP address and start sending discovery > request to the AC on > 0x2FBF. This is a sort of DoS attack situation. > Seperate Port Approach (Reactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * it would do discovery reply. > * LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT LEGITIMATE WTP'S REACTION TO > DISCOVERY REPLY. > * Illegal WTP in turn would start the DTLS session > establishement by > sending CliehtHello message (and fake IP address) to > 0x2FC0 port of AC. > * When AC gets ClientHello on 0x2FC0 and finds out that > prior WTP session > information exists (with FSM=Run), AC will keep > dropping the clientHello > packet coming from duplicate (illegal) WTP. Assuming > Capwap Keepalive > messages continue to come to AC, legitimate WTP's > session would remain > intact. > Remark: DoS attack was NOT SUCCESSFUL. > > Common Port Apporach (Reactive implementation): > * AC will get the discovery packet on 0x2FBF port > * AC will try finding out if prior session information > for the WTP exists > or not. As it does (with FSM=RUN), AC will simply drop > the incoming > discovery pacekt coming from duplicate (& illegal) WTP. > Assuming Capwap > Keepalive messages continue to come to AC, legitimate > WTP's session > would remain intact. > Remark: DoS attack was NOT successful. True, but at a cost. Again, requiring that state changes only occur once the DTLS session is established eliminates all of these attacks, without any time tax. > > > Conclusion: Common Port approach behaves nearly same as Seperate port > approach be it normal functioning or DoS > attack situation. While I believe the tweaks I described above are required, I do generally agree that either alternative are equivalent (from a vulnerability standpoint). Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 06:51:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd2pH-00040O-0t for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:51:07 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd2pC-0005UF-2o for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:51:07 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FA639807A for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002714A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AE4430B2D for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF94430B2C for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 03:47:56 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QAltn6018225; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:47:55 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QAltW4017579; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:47:55 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:47:54 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAB5@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r Thread-Index: Acb41g0e9uwBEGSlRlaejfrki2c+1wAFdI+g From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dorothy Stanley" , "Behcet Sarikaya" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 10:47:55.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[31B05D90:01C6F8EC] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0378057681==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 94ddbad0060c343c23e74ba9bbebbccf This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0378057681== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8EC.3193AD4D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8EC.3193AD4D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree, but that doesn't mean that we should be dillatory and not fix something in the protocol that is known to be broken in supporting an upcoming ammendment. This is not the case with 802.11r, but just wanted to provide my interpretation of the process.. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:02 AM To: Behcet Sarikaya Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r =09 =09 All, =09 I believe that we previously agreed that the initial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capabilities through those defined in 802.11-REVma, expected to be approved in Dec 06, and that unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc would be dealt with in a future version.=20 =09 Thus 802.11r support in CAPWAP, the discussion of which is very interesting, is not in scope for the current CAPWAP specifications under development. =09 Thanks, =09 Dorothy =09 =09 On 10/25/06, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:=20 Comments inline. =09 =09 ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Clancy To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Cc: Behcet Sarikaya < sarikaya@ieee.org >; capwap Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r =09 =09 Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA might roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for=20 the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH). This would be about equal to the latency of having the AC validating Association Request packets. =09 =3D=3D>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency. =09 Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s? I don't see any references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protocol.=20 =3D=3D>I think it is possible but the key distribution protocol is more advantageous because you do not distribute keys to WTPs that may never need to use such a key. =09 =09 My understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys can be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go through the AAA server. Unfortunately our main security association is=20 with the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so everything will have to go through the AC. =09 =3D=3D>No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.=20 =09 =09 --=20 t. charles clancy, ph.d. <> tcc@umd.edu <> www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy =20 =09 On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: > I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the > case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes > the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can > override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result > Association Response. > > When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys > necessary to validate the Association Request, so it would *have* to > defer to the AC. The question is whether this is acceptable as it does=20 > change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to > push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own > authentication of the management frame. > > Pat Calhoun=20 > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Charles Clancy [mailto: clancy@cs.umd.edu ] >> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:27 PM >> To: Behcet Sarikaya >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r >> >> Behcet, >>=20 >> > My proposal is to use the key distribution protocol of >> 802.11r which >> > securely transports the keys. >> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what I had in mind.=20 >> >> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys >> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC >> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a=20 >> new key distribution protocol at all. >> >> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff: >> >> STA WTP1 WTP2 AC >> -------------------------------------------------- >> >> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now): >> >> <--- assoc -----> >> <-------------- open authentication ------------->=20 >> <----------------- 1X/EAP authentication --------> >> (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1) >> <--------------- four-way handshake -------------> >> (derives PTK) >> <---------- add mobile (PTK) ----- >> >> fast handoff: >> >> (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1') >> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------> >> (derives new PTK') >> <- add mobile (PTK') >> <---------- delete mobile -------- >> >> >> > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP? >> >> I'm not sure to what you're referring. Using the >> yet-to-be-defined 11r key distribution protocol duplicates >> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture for distributing keying=20 >> material. Additionally, it violates the security restriction >> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MUST >> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC. >> >> > You're saying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I=20 >> have in the >> > draft. >> >> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol >> changes. The only changes I can envision being necessary are >> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs=20 >> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r. All the 11r >> protocol processing would be implemented at the AC. The WTP >> would just have to know about the additional 802.11 messages, >> and know they should be forwarded to the AC. WTPs and ACs >> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.=20 >> >> -- >> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy =20 >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: >> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> >> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 >> > =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8EC.3193AD4D Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 agree, but that doesn't mean that we should be dillatory and not fix = something=20 in the protocol that is known to be broken in supporting an upcoming = ammendment.=20 This is not the case with 802.11r, but just wanted to provide my = interpretation=20 of the process..
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Dorothy Stanley=20 [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, = 2006=20 1:02 AM
To: Behcet Sarikaya
Cc: = capwap
Subject:=20 Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

All,

I believe that we previously agreed that = the
initial=20 CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capabilities = through
those=20 defined in  802.11-REVma, expected to be approved in Dec 06, and=20 that
unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc would be = dealt=20 with
in a future version.

Thus  802.11r support in = CAPWAP, the=20 discussion of which is very interesting,
is not in scope for the = current=20 CAPWAP specifications under = development.

Thanks,

Dorothy

On 10/25/06, Behcet=20 Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>= =20 wrote:
Comments=20 inline.

----- Original Message ----
From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd.edu>
To: Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
Cc: Behcet Sarikaya = < = sarikaya@ieee.org>;=20 capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Sent: Monday, October = 23, 2006=20 11:00:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for = 802.11r

Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to = WTPs to=20 which a STA might
roam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still = have the=20 WTP-AC latency for
the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC=20 (R0KH).  This would be about equal
to the latency of = having the=20 AC validating Association Request = packets.

=3D=3D>PMK-R1 is=20 sent during Authenticate req/resp exchange, so no effect on = ReassReq/Resp=20 latency.

Does 11r let you proactively = distribute=20 PMK-R1s?  I don't see any
references in D3... all I see = is the=20 reactive distribution protocol.
=3D=3D>I think it is = possible but=20 the key distribution protocol is more advantageous because you do = not=20 distribute keys to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.


My understanding is that one of the reasons = 11r is=20 faster is because keys
can be *reactively* transfered directly = between=20 APs without having to go
through the AAA = server.  Unfortunately=20 our main security association is
with the AC, not the WTP, and = inter-WTP=20 communications is bad, so
everything will have to go through the=20 AC.

=3D=3D>No inter-WTP communications in CAPWAPRP.


--
t. = charles=20 clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu  <>  =20 www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

On Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, = Pat=20 Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:
> I agree with Charles - but I do = believe=20 there is a single issue. In the
> case of local MAC, the IEEE = 802.11=20 binding states that the WTP processes
> the Association = Request and=20 then forwards it to the AC. The AC can
> override the decision = made by=20 the WTP by sending a negative result
> Association=20 Response.
>
> When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will not = have the=20 cryptographic keys
> necessary to validate the Association = Request, so=20 it would *have* to
> defer to the AC. The question is whether = this is=20 acceptable as it does
> change the timing of the Association = round=20 trip. One alternative is to
> push the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP = to allow=20 the WTP to perform its own
> authentication of the management=20 frame.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking = Business Unit
> Cisco = Systems
>
>
>
>>=20 -----Original Message-----
>> From: Charles Clancy = [mailto:=20 clancy@cs.umd.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 = 12:27=20 PM
>> To: Behcet Sarikaya
>> Cc: = capwap
>>=20 Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>>=20 Behcet,
>>
>> > My proposal is to use the key=20 distribution protocol of
>> 802.11r which
>> > = securely=20 transports the keys.
>> > Also no need for the context = transfer=20 which was what I had in mind.
>>
>> My point is = that we=20 don't need to distribute PMK-R1 keys
>> since all = authenticator=20 functionality will reside at the AC
>> regardless of the = MAC=20 splitting, so we therefore don't need a
>> new key = distribution=20 protocol at all.
>>
>> Here's how I envision an = 11r=20 handoff:
>>
>>=20 = STA           &nbs= p;WTP1          =20 = WTP2           &nb= sp;  AC
>>=20 = --------------------------------------------------
>>
>>= ;=20 Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):
>>
>> = <---=20 assoc ----->
>> <-------------- open authentication=20 ------------->
>> <----------------- 1X/EAP = authentication=20 = -------->
>>        &= nbsp;       (derives=20 PMK-R0, PMK-R1)
>> <--------------- four-way handshake=20 = ------------->
>>       &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;(derives=20 = PTK)
>>         &nb= sp;      =20 <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----
>>
>> fast=20 = handoff:
>>
>>       = ;         (AC=20 and STA derive new PMK-R1')
>> <------- FT / reassoc = (PMK Name,=20 MIC, etc)=20 = ------>
>>        &nb= sp;         =20 (derives new=20 = PTK')
>>         &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;        =20 <- add mobile=20 = (PTK')
>>         &= nbsp;      =20 <---------- delete mobile = --------
>>
>>
>>=20 > Can you spare your ideas why that would not work in=20 CAPWAP?
>>
>> I'm not sure to what you're=20 referring.  Using the
>> yet-to-be-defined 11r = key=20 distribution protocol duplicates
>> the add-mobile CAPWAP=20 architecture for distributing keying
>>=20 material.  Additionally, it violates the security=20 restriction
>> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying = hierarchy=20 MUST
>> remain at the authenticator, which is the=20 AC.
>>
>> > You're saying we only need the = split MAC=20 scenarios that I
>> have in the
>> >=20 draft.
>>
>> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support = 11r=20 without any protocol
>> changes.  The only = changes I can=20 envision being necessary are
>> perhaps capabilities flags=20 indicating support for 11r, so ACs
>> and WTPs know that = each=20 other supports 11r.  All the 11r
>> protocol = processing=20 would be implemented at the AC.  The WTP
>> would = just=20 have to know about the additional 802.11 messages,
>> and = know they=20 should be forwarded to the AC.  WTPs and ACs
>> = would=20 also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defined in 11r.=20
>>
>> --
>> t. charles clancy,=20 ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |  =20 www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>
>>=20 = _________________________________________________________________
>= >=20 To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please=20 visit:
>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
= >>
>>=20 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =
>>
>

_________________________________________= ________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =


______________= ___________________________________________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
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=
Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8EC.3193AD4D-- --===============0378057681== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0378057681==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 07:23:26 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd3KY-0005ER-8l for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:23:26 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd3KT-0001q8-Cy for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:23:26 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC37F398064 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0093E4A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12E139803C for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C89E398029 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 13:22:53 +0200 Received: from hkg-core-1.cisco.com (hkg-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.123.94]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QBMpr1003426 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:22:52 +0200 Received: from xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-411.cisco.com [64.104.140.150]) by hkg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QBMnVt026796 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:22:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:52:48 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:52:47 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01FF8CC2@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb3hExvfrWUJ93uSxCyGHA29lgS4wAAI3BZABQxsSAAPa8okAAJIUJQ From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 11:22:48.0856 (UTC) FILETIME=[115A1180:01C6F8F1] Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Pat, I think we should have this additional state and have the following transitions on the AC and WTP. Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC to join. AC: Nop "DTLS Establishment" to Join: WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. Thanks Smitha -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 PM To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is needed between idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment". Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap' > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > Pat, > > The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - (Idle to > Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the > various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. Why is it > necessary to have a "join ready" state? > > Thanks > Smitha > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM > To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" > state. We clearly need to transition to a new > (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open. > > PatC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time > To: capwap > Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state > > All, > > The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS > Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case? > The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request. > > Thanks > Smitha > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 07:34:49 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd3VZ-0006FH-LL for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:34:49 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd3VT-0003ZP-E8 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:34:48 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADCC398094 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1104A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAE8430C40 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC96430C4D for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 13:34:24 +0200 Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (india-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.129.221]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QBYM73013600 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:34:23 +0200 Received: from xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-411.cisco.com [64.104.140.150]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QBYLB1007611 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:34:21 GMT Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:04:20 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:04:19 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01FF8CCC@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb3hExvfrWUJ93uSxCyGHA29lgS4wAAI3BZABQxsSAAPa8okAAJIUJQAABV1DA= From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 11:34:20.0584 (UTC) FILETIME=[ADA76280:01C6F8F2] Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 287c806b254c6353fcb09ee0e53bbc5e One correction to the transitions. Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC to join. AC: Nop "DTLS Establishment" to Join: WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. AC: Nop Idle to "DTLS Establishment" WTP: Nop AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. Thanks Smitha -----Original Message----- From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:53 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap' Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state Pat, I think we should have this additional state and have the following transitions on the AC and WTP. Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC to join. AC: Nop "DTLS Establishment" to Join: WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. Thanks Smitha -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 PM To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is needed between idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment". Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap' > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > Pat, > > The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - (Idle to > Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the > various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. Why is it > necessary to have a "join ready" state? > > Thanks > Smitha > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM > To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" > state. We clearly need to transition to a new > (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open. > > PatC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time > To: capwap > Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state > > All, > > The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS > Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case? > The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request. > > Thanks > Smitha > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From riatjoyc@perspex.com Thu Oct 26 08:12:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd461-0004F6-CW for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:12:29 -0400 Received: from buv74.internetdsl.tpnet.pl ([83.18.177.74]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd41Q-0000Wm-TM for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:08:04 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c6f2ae$1afa9960$4ab11253@grazka> From: "ABC" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Hitachi exploding debacle. Seagate Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:08:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6F2BE.DE80F860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6F2BE.DE80F860 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6F2BE.DE80F860" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6F2BE.DE80F860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Posner Judge Posners opinions isnt federal clerked him of claim done = Blog. Posner Judge Posners opinions isnt federal clerked him of claim done = Blog. 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Posner Judge Posners opinions isnt = federal clerked=20 him of claim done Blog.
Posner Judge Posners opinions isnt federal = clerked=20 him of claim done Blog.
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X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6F2BE.DEB093E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6F2BE.DEB093E0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6F2BE.DEB093E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Both dsl a obligation protect original or Once imposed merger agreements = lastmile choose carry att ed or Whitacre or explained net block gone of. 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5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1445717; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:02:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAB0@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAB0@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Message-Id: <803EA1B2-E512-4850-B132-780B0257B9D1@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:00:41 -0400 To: Pat Calhoun ((pacalhou)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: Hasan Raza , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Hi Pat, On Oct 26, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Pat Calhoun ((pacalhou)) wrote: > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control and data > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This way, if a > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the (relatively) > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used. That works for me, too The main reason I had not suggested including the tag on both control and data packets was that I was concerned about lowering the MTU of the link for little benefit. Is there some reason why that isn't a concern? Margaret _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 08:13:00 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd46L-0004KA-6H for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:12:49 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd3xb-0008KL-Qd for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:03:50 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8E523980BA for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819B24A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6491339802F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc11.comcast.net (alnrmhc11.comcast.net [206.18.177.51]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9809939804C for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20061026120238b1100fjn4ue>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:02:42 +0000 Message-ID: <4540A3DD.5090106@hyperthought.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:02:37 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A268088A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A268088A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , "Scott G. Kelly" , capwap , Abhijit Choudhury Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e367d58950869b6582535ddf5a673488 I think what Abhijit suggested can be accomplished without exposing the session id itself. The functionality we're after is really a (QoS) tunnel id, so we know what dtls session to use for the given source. One solution is to plumb an ACL and rely on the source port, but this value could also be included in the type header: +------------+------------+------------+------------+ | version | tunnel id | type | +------------+------------+------------+------------+ It could be less than 8 bits - this is merely illustrative. This is equivalent to the 'channel id' I suggested concatenating with the sessionID earlier, but this approach exposes it and uses it for dtls session selection (and the sessionID would still be in the protected portion, and used to bind control/data channels). The source port can also be used, but with multiple WTPs going through a NAT, the approach above doesn't chew up (potentially) 8+ ports per WTP in the NAT's binding table (and fwiw, there's no corresponding chance of being 'bumped' from the binding table on a heavily loaded NAT). Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > Could you explain why you believe the sessionID should not be protected? > Seems like the IP address and UDP port are sufficient to distinguish the > WTP (for encrypted data plane, this would be known after the first > packet is received. > > PatC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard Time > To: Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); > Scott G. Kelly > Cc: capwap > Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > Folks, > I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further. > We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format. > The shim header should be present in both capwap > control and data packets, and should have a > field to indicate encrypted/unencrypted as well > as a type/sessionId field. > > For packets arriving on either control or data port, > the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether > the payload is DTLS encrypted. > > For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port, > the type/sessionId field indicates the QoS level in > order to avoid antireplay issues. > > This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the > concerns raised so far on this issue: > > 1. Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets > through legacy devices with different levels of QoS > 2. Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted packets > in the CAPWAP payload. > 3. Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel is > DTLS encrypted. > > I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott > presented in one of his earlier emails. > > Regards, > Abhijit > ________________________________ > > From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] > Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM > To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun > Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > > Hi Margaret, > > I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control > only). > > To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP > ports reserved for CAPWAP: > > A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow > on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between > the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header > could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control > mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want > to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks > about a "Control Header". > > B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. It > is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or not. > If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header. > If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP > Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header. > > Is the above interpretation correct? > > Thanks. > > -Puneet > > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM > To: Pat Calhoun > Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > Hi all, > > Just commenting as an individual contributor... > > I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach, > because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually > happening. > > Different ports are used to reach different end points (different > systems or different processes running on the same system). In CAPWAP, > we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the > control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and > control end-points may be different processes or run on different > systems. That makes sense to me. > > However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted > control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end- > points. We are talking about a single control application that needs to > decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as > DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine > for decryption. If you think about it that way, I think it would be > better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with > a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or > unencrypted. If the packet is unencrypted, the control application > processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery > packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off > the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption. This > type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security > world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes > emerges. > > So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a > CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated > packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted). I think 4 bytes would be long > enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment. IMO, > it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a > three-byte type field. At this point, only two types would be defined. > > I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I > just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint. > > I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that > involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and > then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc. > > Margaret > > > On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP > > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us. > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM > >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com > >> Cc: capwap > >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > >> > >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: > >> > >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a > >>> packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which > >> is of lengh 'y'. > >> > >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? > >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're > >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We > >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it > >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't > >> adopt this hack? > >> > >> Scott > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 08:13:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd46h-0004sW-Q6 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:13:11 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd3tS-0007gN-3I for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:59:32 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F9839807C for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC714A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C93839800B for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:59:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 1 mon 5 days 03:12:05 ago Received: from thingmagic.com (unknown [204.9.221.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D8C398025 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.2]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1445701; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:59:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: <8954613CA6BB3242A1531D916A527A4102235483@NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com> References: <8954613CA6BB3242A1531D916A527A4102235483@NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Message-Id: <24E2ABF7-066A-43A5-8557-3FC4B425835B@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:57:04 -0400 To: Puneet Agarwal X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.05 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: Hasan Raza , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Hi Puneet, > To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP > ports reserved for CAPWAP: > > A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow > on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added > between > the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header > could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The > control > mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't > want > to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already > talks > about a "Control Header". > > B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP > port. It > is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or > not. > If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header. > If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP > Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header. > > Is the above interpretation correct? Yes, this interpretation is correct. And, I agree with you that we shouldn't call the new header a "control header", as that would be ambiguous. Thanks, Margaret _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 08:13:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd462-0004F6-0T for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:12:30 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd41M-0000Wk-4a for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:07:42 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8080239802F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A124A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48773430DE0 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc14.comcast.net (alnrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.225.94]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529A9430DE5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc14) with ESMTP id <20061026120331b1400cufc4e>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:03:32 +0000 Message-ID: <4540A413.6020906@hyperthought.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:03:31 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" References: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01FF8CCC@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01FF8CCC@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 If you add this state, you must also add a WaitDTLS timer. Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) wrote: > One correction to the transitions. > > Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": > > WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC > to join. > AC: Nop > > "DTLS Establishment" to Join: > WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. > WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. > AC: Nop > > Idle to "DTLS Establishment" > WTP: Nop > AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. > AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. > > Thanks > Smitha > > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:53 PM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap' > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > Pat, > > I think we should have this additional state and have the following > transitions on the AC and WTP. > > Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": > > WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which AC > to join. > AC: Nop > > "DTLS Establishment" to Join: > WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. > WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. > AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. > AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. > > Thanks > Smitha > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 PM > To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is needed between > idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment". > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap' >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state >> >> Pat, >> >> The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle - (Idle to >> Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the >> various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. Why is it >> necessary to have a "join ready" state? >> >> Thanks >> Smitha >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM >> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state >> >> I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a "join ready" >> state. We clearly need to transition to a new >> (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open. >> >> PatC >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time >> To: capwap >> Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state >> >> All, >> >> The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on receiving DTLS >> Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case? >> The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request. >> >> Thanks >> Smitha >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 09:22:21 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd5Bd-0001aN-HW for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:22:21 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd5Ba-0008MA-16 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:22:21 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD4D430FB9 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999914A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8500A398078 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDA3398071 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 06:21:56 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QDLujc010906; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:21:56 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QDLtW4000368; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:21:55 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:21:54 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAC5@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb49tN/9UzFO0P8QEGXmTdft/WqiAACsORg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 13:21:55.0764 (UTC) FILETIME=[B53DAF40:01C6F901] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: Hasan Raza , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa I doubt 1 byte (or 4 if we want alignment) will make that much of a difference over the network. I think consistency of packet formats across both planes will simplify product development, but more importantly, troubleshooting. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:01 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > Hi Pat, > > On Oct 26, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Pat Calhoun ((pacalhou)) wrote: > > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to > > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would > > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control > and data > > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This > way, if a > > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the > (relatively) > > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used. > > That works for me, too > > The main reason I had not suggested including the tag on both > control and data packets was that I was concerned about > lowering the MTU of the link for little benefit. Is there > some reason why that isn't a concern? > > Margaret > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 09:32:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd5Lf-0007vr-41 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:32:43 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd5Lc-0002HR-Lu for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:32:43 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B323430F52 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85E584A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6228839805A for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:32:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 4 days 19:57:17 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E303D398034 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 192.168.10.82 ([192.168.10.82]) by sinett-sbs.SiNett.LAN ([10.10.20.10]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:32:12 +0000 Received: from hasan-sinettdev by 10.10.20.10; 26 Oct 2006 19:03:00 +0530 From: Hasan Raza To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAB0@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAB0@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Organization: SiNett Semiconductors India Pvt. Ltd. Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:02:58 +0530 Message-Id: <1161869579.29460.94.camel@hasan-sinettdev> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.074 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, RCVD_BY_IP X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: hasan@sinett.com List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 03:44 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control and data > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This way, if a > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the (relatively) > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used. Usually data plane is implemented in hardware and control plane in software. Though a bit tricky, but bump in the stack is easier to implement in software than hardware. Changing fast path logic in hardware just for capwap packets may not be worth an effort if the extra type header field does not serve any purpose. Since it is more or less decided that DTLS is enabled or disabled on data plane is just based on a binary configuration at AC, there does not seem to be any purpose of extra type header field for data packets. May be we should look into issue #221. Hasan _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 10:06:03 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd5rv-0005EV-03 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:06:03 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd5rr-0000ep-Fz for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:06:02 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B688D43106E for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9BC4A4547 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D097A398078 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3AF39807E for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 07:05:31 -0700 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QE5Vao008703; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:05:31 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QE5RbF005110; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:05:27 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:05:24 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BADD@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb5AybT2aYQw7h2TYq+YvKVg0/zKAABIm2Q From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 14:05:27.0165 (UTC) FILETIME=[C9C1DAD0:01C6F907] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Have you considered that some hardware may be providing an interface to hardware DTLS logic prior to forking off to data or control plane processing? Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Hasan Raza [mailto:hasan@sinett.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:33 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap > Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 03:44 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to > > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would > > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control > and data > > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This > way, if a > > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the > (relatively) > > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used. > Usually data plane is implemented in hardware and control > plane in software. Though a bit tricky, but bump in the stack > is easier to implement in software than hardware. Changing > fast path logic in hardware just for capwap packets may not > be worth an effort if the extra type header field does not > serve any purpose. Since it is more or less decided that DTLS > is enabled or disabled on data plane is just based on a > binary configuration at AC, there does not seem to be any > purpose of extra type header field for data packets. May be > we should look into issue #221. > > Hasan > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 10:37:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd6M1-0000cj-H8 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:37:09 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd6Ly-0005U4-1H for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:37:09 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F873980B5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD664A4547 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EB839807B for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:36:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 4 days 21:01:47 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF2639808F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 192.168.10.82 ([192.168.10.82]) by sinett-sbs.SiNett.LAN ([10.10.20.10]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:36:39 +0000 Received: from hasan-sinettdev by 10.10.20.10; 26 Oct 2006 20:07:27 +0530 From: Hasan Raza To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BADD@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BADD@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Organization: SiNett Semiconductors India Pvt. Ltd. Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:07:27 +0530 Message-Id: <1161873447.29460.108.camel@hasan-sinettdev> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.074 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, RCVD_BY_IP X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: hasan@sinett.com List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 In that case, the capwap control port would be different from capwap data port in a manner as any other non-capwap udp port which may need DTLS processing. The type header stripping logic would be anyway implemented on the port basis as an special case for capwap port(s). So why this special case should be there for two ports if the second port does not require it? Hasan On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 07:05 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > Have you considered that some hardware may be providing an interface to > hardware DTLS logic prior to forking off to data or control plane > processing? > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hasan Raza [mailto:hasan@sinett.com] > > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:33 AM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > > On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 03:44 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to > > > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would > > > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control > > and data > > > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This > > way, if a > > > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the > > (relatively) > > > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used. > > Usually data plane is implemented in hardware and control > > plane in software. Though a bit tricky, but bump in the stack > > is easier to implement in software than hardware. Changing > > fast path logic in hardware just for capwap packets may not > > be worth an effort if the extra type header field does not > > serve any purpose. Since it is more or less decided that DTLS > > is enabled or disabled on data plane is just based on a > > binary configuration at AC, there does not seem to be any > > purpose of extra type header field for data packets. May be > > we should look into issue #221. > > > > Hasan > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 10:51:38 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd6a2-0006UR-LG for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:51:38 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd6Zu-0008Mi-VO for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:51:38 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E723980BC for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA7A4A4547 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9D739802F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alnrmhc11.comcast.net (alnrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.225.91]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F9C39808C for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.128.4] (c-24-6-207-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[24.6.207.154]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20061026145048b1100fj7ake>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:50:48 +0000 Message-ID: <4540CB47.2080509@hyperthought.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:50:47 -0700 From: Scott G Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hasan@sinett.com References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BADD@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> <1161873447.29460.108.camel@hasan-sinettdev> In-Reply-To: <1161873447.29460.108.camel@hasan-sinettdev> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 But I think the assumption that encryption on the data port is binary on/off is a little premature. I think that for any given WTP, it will be binary, but that for a given deployment, some WTPs could require data channel encryption while others do not. Hasan Raza wrote: > In that case, the capwap control port would be different from capwap > data port in a manner as any other non-capwap udp port which may need > DTLS processing. The type header stripping logic would be anyway > implemented on the port basis as an special case for capwap port(s). So > why this special case should be there for two ports if the second port > does not require it? > > Hasan > > On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 07:05 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: >> Have you considered that some hardware may be providing an interface to >> hardware DTLS logic prior to forking off to data or control plane >> processing? >> >> Pat Calhoun >> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >> Cisco Systems >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Hasan Raza [mailto:hasan@sinett.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:33 AM >>> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) >>> Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. Kelly; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap >>> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports >>> >>> On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 03:44 -0700, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: >>>> ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to >>>> represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would >>>> prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control >>> and data >>>> plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This >>> way, if a >>>> DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the >>> (relatively) >>>> same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used. >>> Usually data plane is implemented in hardware and control >>> plane in software. Though a bit tricky, but bump in the stack >>> is easier to implement in software than hardware. Changing >>> fast path logic in hardware just for capwap packets may not >>> be worth an effort if the extra type header field does not >>> serve any purpose. Since it is more or less decided that DTLS >>> is enabled or disabled on data plane is just based on a >>> binary configuration at AC, there does not seem to be any >>> purpose of extra type header field for data packets. May be >>> we should look into issue #221. >>> >>> Hasan >>> > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 12:51:34 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8S6-0000n7-Nl for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:51:34 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8S1-0006VD-7D for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:51:34 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B8E3980E5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE6C4A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33021431339 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 1 mon 5 days 08:03:47 ago Received: from thingmagic.com (unknown [204.9.221.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8661431305 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.2]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1446872; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:50:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4540CB47.2080509@hyperthought.com> References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BADD@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> <1161873447.29460.108.camel@hasan-sinettdev> <4540CB47.2080509@hyperthought.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Message-Id: <873D483F-9A44-426D-836D-DC1A01C309E1@thingmagic.com> From: Margaret Wasserman Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:48:44 -0400 To: Scott G Kelly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Hi Scott, On Oct 26, 2006, at 10:50 AM, Scott G Kelly wrote: > But I think the assumption that encryption on the data port is binary > on/off is a little premature. I think that for any given WTP, it > will be > binary, but that for a given deployment, some WTPs could require data > channel encryption while others do not. Good point. I'm now convinced (by this note and Pat's) that it would be best to include a short header on both the data and control channels to indicate whether the packet is a DTLS packet or an unencrypted packet. Margaret _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 12:54:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8VG-0006dH-8b for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:54:50 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8VD-0006yU-JL for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:54:50 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A03B3980E0 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D56A4A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB8D39807C for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09E539800F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.44] (helo=elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Gd8Up-0000gH-AF; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:54:23 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:54:23 -0400 Message-ID: <26367192.1161881663273.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:54:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: ssmitha@cisco.com, capwap Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff7109f4d2f4d46f468d90597d4dea3e64c35350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f One other issue with this: > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:34 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state > > One correction to the transitions. > > Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": > > WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring > out which AC > to join. > AC: Nop > > "DTLS Establishment" to Join: > WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received > from DTLS. > WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. > AC: Nop > > Idle to "DTLS Establishment" > WTP: Nop > AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. > AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. The AC needs to transition when it receives a DTLS ClientHello (with cookie) and set a timer (WaitDTLS). --Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 13:06:12 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8gG-0002dQ-OA for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:06:12 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8gD-0000MC-5G for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:06:12 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34A7398111 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81D04A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53293980F1 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A1C39803D for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 10:05:05 -0700 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QH55vq001127; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:05:05 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QH4LOh008912; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:05:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:05:03 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BBA5@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb49sNbiyG1DcCNQ2mBxSi4YnSpMgAKhsCw From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Scott G Kelly" , "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 17:05:03.0375 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0E101F0:01C6F920] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 42e3ed3f10a1d8bef690f09da16f507a Issue 226 created. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott@hyperthought.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:04 AM > To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state > > If you add this state, you must also add a WaitDTLS timer. > > Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) wrote: > > One correction to the transitions. > > > > Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": > > > > WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring > out which > > AC to join. > > AC: Nop > > > > "DTLS Establishment" to Join: > > WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received > from DTLS. > > WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. > > AC: Nop > > > > Idle to "DTLS Establishment" > > WTP: Nop > > AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received > from DTLS. > > AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. > > > > Thanks > > Smitha > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:53 PM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap' > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > > > Pat, > > > > I think we should have this additional state and have the following > > transitions on the AC and WTP. > > > > Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": > > > > WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring > out which > > AC to join. > > AC: Nop > > > > "DTLS Establishment" to Join: > > WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received > from DTLS. > > WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. > > AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received > from DTLS. > > AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. > > > > Thanks > > Smitha > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 PM > > To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > > > > I see your point. Clearly, some interim CAPWAP state is > needed between > > idle and join, which we could call "DTLS Establishment". > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:37 PM > >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); 'capwap' > >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > >> > >> Pat, > >> > >> The spec talks about transitioning to join state from idle > - (Idle to > >> Join (aa)). This would make it necessary for CAPWAP to know of the > >> various DTLS packets are being received during handshake. > Why is it > >> necessary to have a "join ready" state? > >> > >> Thanks > >> Smitha > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:26 PM > >> To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); 'capwap' > >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > >> > >> I'm not so sure. If that were the case we would need a > "join ready" > >> state. We clearly need to transition to a new > >> (non-DTLS) state when the DTLS channel is open. > >> > >> PatC > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 08:52 AM Pacific Standard Time > >> To: capwap > >> Subject: [Capwap] transition to join state > >> > >> All, > >> > >> The spec talks about AC transitioning to Join state on > receiving DTLS > >> Client Hello with a valid cookie. Should this really be the case? > >> The AC should transition to Join state on receiving a Join Request. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Smitha > >> > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 13:10:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8kB-0003Sf-VO for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:10:15 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8k0-00013S-1Z for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:10:15 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F94C3980D1 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237384A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDC23980EA for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6163980E1 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 19:02:31 +0200 Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (india-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.129.221]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QH2UZf017039; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:02:31 +0200 Received: from xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-411.cisco.com [64.104.140.150]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QH2RB1001158; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:02:28 GMT Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:32:27 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:32:21 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC01FF8D1E@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb5H2YlASWqCGR5QxmNk6LItQtmlwAAMe9Q From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: "Scott G. Kelly" , "capwap" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 17:02:27.0356 (UTC) FILETIME=[83E265C0:01C6F920] Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Scott, The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the earlier transitions were OK. Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to maintain? That would be part of DTLS. Thanks Smitha -----Original Message----- From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:24 PM To: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state One other issue with this: > -----Original Message----- > From: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha) [mailto:ssmitha@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:34 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state > > One correction to the transitions. > > Discovery to "DTLS Establishment": > > WTP: Occurs when WTP sends DTLSStart command after figuring out which > AC to join. > AC: Nop > > "DTLS Establishment" to Join: > WTP: Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. > WTP sends a Join Request and starts the WaitJoin timer. > AC: Nop > > Idle to "DTLS Establishment" > WTP: Nop > AC:Occurs when DTLSSessionEstablished command is received from DTLS. > AC allocates state for this WTP and starts the WaitJoin timer. The AC needs to transition when it receives a DTLS ClientHello (with cookie) and set a timer (WaitDTLS). --Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 13:12:54 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8mk-0005Ku-0F for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:12:54 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8mf-0001Ws-H7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:12:53 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCBA13980B3 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C254A45FE for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2AF43138F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C77431387 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2006 10:07:03 -0700 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9QH73qf015434; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:03 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9QH73bF000842; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:04 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BBA9@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb5Hwg2D57HV5S/RG2ZUH8bdF/AjQAAh0Gg From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Scott G Kelly" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 17:07:03.0139 (UTC) FILETIME=[28438B30:01C6F921] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=pcalhoun@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Issue 227 created. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:49 AM > To: Scott G Kelly > Cc: capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > Hi Scott, > > On Oct 26, 2006, at 10:50 AM, Scott G Kelly wrote: > > But I think the assumption that encryption on the data port > is binary > > on/off is a little premature. I think that for any given > WTP, it will > > be binary, but that for a given deployment, some WTPs could require > > data channel encryption while others do not. > > Good point. I'm now convinced (by this note and Pat's) that > it would be best to include a short header on both the data > and control channels to indicate whether the packet is a DTLS > packet or an unencrypted packet. > > Margaret > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 13:14:04 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8ns-00083j-88 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:14:04 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd8np-0001mZ-Tv for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:14:04 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69B73980AA for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCCA74A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61C1398136 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 1 mon 9 days 05:13:09 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5388B3980A9 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:04 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:07:04 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb49qXJ2T3couwfSYe+0tazWf2ZIwAKUv8X References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A268088A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> <4540A3DD.5090106@hyperthought.com> From: "Abhijit Choudhury" To: "Scott G Kelly" , "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.107 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Cc: Margaret Wasserman , capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0963283677==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 713965ef965c5660ee5d9a664a73ef4a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0963283677== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F921.28E6BB53" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F921.28E6BB53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, That's exactly what I had in mind. Thanks for clarifying my point. The tunnelId is sufficient to pull out the correct information for anti-replay checking. =20 Seems like we are then reaching a consensus that both control and data channels will have the same format with a 4-byte header between the UDP header and the DTLS or CAPWAP header. I think we should make it a 4-byte header since all the headers so far (UDP, CAPWAP etc.) are nicely 4-byte aligned. As Pat pointed out, the overhead is minimal in the grand scheme of things. =20 Regards, Abhijit ________________________________ From: Scott G Kelly [mailto:scott@hyperthought.com] Sent: Thu 10/26/2006 5:02 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Cc: Abhijit Choudhury; Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. = Kelly; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports I think what Abhijit suggested can be accomplished without exposing the session id itself. The functionality we're after is really a (QoS) tunnel id, so we know what dtls session to use for the given source. One solution is to plumb an ACL and rely on the source port, but this value could also be included in the type header: +------------+------------+------------+------------+ | version | tunnel id | type | +------------+------------+------------+------------+ It could be less than 8 bits - this is merely illustrative. This is equivalent to the 'channel id' I suggested concatenating with the sessionID earlier, but this approach exposes it and uses it for dtls session selection (and the sessionID would still be in the protected portion, and used to bind control/data channels). The source port can also be used, but with multiple WTPs going through a NAT, the approach above doesn't chew up (potentially) 8+ ports per WTP in the NAT's binding table (and fwiw, there's no corresponding chance of being 'bumped' from the binding table on a heavily loaded NAT). Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > Could you explain why you believe the sessionID should not be = protected? > Seems like the IP address and UDP port are sufficient to distinguish = the > WTP (for encrypted data plane, this would be known after the first > packet is received. > > PatC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard Time > To: Puneet Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); > Scott G. Kelly > Cc: capwap > Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > Folks, > I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further. > We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format. > The shim header should be present in both capwap > control and data packets, and should have a > field to indicate encrypted/unencrypted as well > as a type/sessionId field. > > For packets arriving on either control or data port, > the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether > the payload is DTLS encrypted. > > For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port, > the type/sessionId field indicates the QoS level in > order to avoid antireplay issues. > > This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the > concerns raised so far on this issue: > > 1. Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets > through legacy devices with different levels of QoS > 2. Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted packets > in the CAPWAP payload. > 3. Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel is > DTLS encrypted. > > I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott > presented in one of his earlier emails. > > Regards, > Abhijit > ________________________________ > > From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] > Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM > To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun > Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > > Hi Margaret, > > I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control > only). > > To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP > ports reserved for CAPWAP: > > A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow > on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added = between > the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header > could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The = control > mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't = want > to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already = talks > about a "Control Header". > > B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. = It > is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or = not. > If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header. > If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP > Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header. > > Is the above interpretation correct? > > Thanks. > > -Puneet > > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM > To: Pat Calhoun > Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > Hi all, > > Just commenting as an individual contributor... > > I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach, > because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually > happening. > > Different ports are used to reach different end points (different > systems or different processes running on the same system). In = CAPWAP, > we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the > control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and > control end-points may be different processes or run on different > systems. That makes sense to me. > > However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted > control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end- > points. We are talking about a single control application that needs = to > decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as > DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine > for decryption. If you think about it that way, I think it would be > better for the control application to receive a packet that starts = with > a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted = or > unencrypted. If the packet is unencrypted, the control application > processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery > packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips = off > the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption. = This > type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security > world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes > emerges. > > So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a > CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated > packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted). I think 4 bytes would be long > enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment. = IMO, > it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a > three-byte type field. At this point, only two types would be = defined. > > I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I > just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint. > > I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that > involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS = and > then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc. > > Margaret > > > On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third = UDP > > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to = us. > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM > >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com > >> Cc: capwap > >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > >> > >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: > >> > >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a > >>> packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which > >> is of lengh 'y'. > >> > >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? > >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're > >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We > >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it > >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't > >> adopt this hack? > >> > >> Scott > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F921.28E6BB53 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports=0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=
Scott,
=0A=
That's exactly what I had in =0A= mind.
=0A=
Thanks for clarifying my =0A= point.
=0A=
The tunnelId is sufficient to = pull out the =0A= correct
=0A=
information for anti-replay =0A= checking.
=0A=
 
=0A=
Seems like we are then = reaching a =0A= consensus
=0A=
that both control and data = channels will =0A= have
=0A=
the same format with a 4-byte = header =0A= between
=0A=
the UDP header and the DTLS = or CAPWAP =0A= header.
=0A=
I think we should = make it a 4-byte header since
=0A=
all the headers so far (UDP, = CAPWAP =0A= etc.)
=0A=
are nicely 4-byte = aligned.  As Pat =0A= pointed out,
=0A=
the overhead is minimal  = in the grand =0A= scheme of
=0A=
things.
=0A=
 
=0A=
Regards,
=0A=
Abhijit
=0A=

=0A=
=0A= From: Scott G Kelly =0A= [mailto:scott@hyperthought.com]
Sent: Thu 10/26/2006 5:02 =0A= AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Cc: Abhijit Choudhury; = Puneet =0A= Agarwal; Margaret Wasserman; Scott G. Kelly; capwap
Subject: = Re: =0A= [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports

=0A=
=0A=

I think what Abhijit suggested can be accomplished = without =0A= exposing the
session id itself. The functionality we're after is = really a =0A= (QoS)
tunnel id, so we know what dtls session to use for the given = source. =0A= One
solution is to plumb an ACL and rely on the source port, but this =0A= value
could also be included in the type =0A= header:

+------------+------------+------------+------------+
|= =0A= version    | tunnel id  =0A= |          =0A= type           =0A= |
+------------+------------+------------+------------+

It = could be =0A= less than 8 bits - this is merely illustrative. This is
equivalent to = the =0A= 'channel id' I suggested concatenating with the
sessionID earlier, = but this =0A= approach exposes it and uses it for dtls
session selection (and the = sessionID =0A= would still be in the protected
portion, and used to bind = control/data =0A= channels).

The source port can also be used, but with multiple = WTPs going =0A= through a
NAT, the approach above doesn't chew up (potentially) 8+ = ports per =0A= WTP
in the NAT's binding table (and fwiw, there's no corresponding = chance =0A= of
being 'bumped' from the binding table on a heavily loaded =0A= NAT).


Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
> Could you explain = why you =0A= believe the sessionID should not be protected?
> Seems like the IP = address =0A= and UDP port are sufficient to distinguish the
> WTP (for = encrypted data =0A= plane, this would be known after the first
> packet is =0A= received.
>
> PatC
>
>  -----Original =0A= Message-----
> From:   Abhijit Choudhury [mailto:Abhijit@sinett.com]
>= =0A= Sent:   Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:59 PM Pacific Standard =0A= Time
> To:     Puneet Agarwal; Margaret = Wasserman; Pat =0A= Calhoun (pacalhou);
> Scott G. Kelly
> = Cc:     =0A= capwap
> Subject:        RE: = [Capwap] =0A= need clarification on UDP ports
>
> Folks,
> I like = the =0A= solution below, but I'd go one step further.
> We should just have = a =0A= single CAPWAP packet format.
> The shim header should be present = in both =0A= capwap
> control and data packets, and  should have a
> = field =0A= to indicate  encrypted/unencrypted as well
> as a = type/sessionId =0A= field.
>
> For packets arriving  on either control or = data =0A= port,
> the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether
> = the =0A= payload is DTLS encrypted.
>
> For DTLS encrypted packets = arriving =0A= on the data port,
> the type/sessionId field  indicates the = QoS level =0A= in
> order to avoid antireplay issues.
>
> This = approach is =0A= simple, clean and addresses all the
> concerns raised so far on = this =0A= issue:
>
> 1.  Uses separate control and data UDP ports = to =0A= steer packets
>       through legacy = devices =0A= with different levels of QoS
> 2.  Is able to distinguish = between =0A= encrypted and unencrypted packets
>      = in the =0A= CAPWAP payload.
> 3.  Is able to support multiple QoS levels = if the =0A= data channel is
>      DTLS =0A= encrypted.
>
> I believe this is similar to the proposal = that =0A= Scott
> presented in one of his earlier emails.
>
> =0A= Regards,
> Abhijit
> =0A= ________________________________
>
> From: Puneet Agarwal = [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]> =0A= Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM
> To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat =0A= Calhoun
> Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap
> Subject: Re: [Capwap] = need =0A= clarification on UDP ports
>
>
>
> Hi =0A= Margaret,
>
> I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim = header =0A= for capwap control
> only).
>
> To summarize, it seems = that =0A= you are proposing that there be two UDP
> ports reserved for =0A= CAPWAP:
>
> A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap = control =0A= messages flow
> on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control = mux) header =0A= added between
> the UDP Header and the following header (where the =0A= following header
> could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if =0A= non-encrypted ). The control
> mux would specify if the packet is = DTLS =0A= encrypted or not. I didn't want
> to use the "Control Header" for = the new =0A= shim as section 4 already talks
> about a "Control =0A= Header".
>
> B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages = flow on =0A= this UDP port. It
> is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the = payload in =0A= encrypted or not.
> If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header = follows =0A= the UDP Header.
> If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP = Header =0A= follows the UDP
> Header. Note that there is no "control mux" = after the =0A= UDP header.
>
> Is the above interpretation = correct?
>
> =0A= Thanks.
>
> -Puneet
>
> -----Original =0A= Message-----
> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
> =0A= Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
> To: Pat = Calhoun
> Cc: =0A= Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
> Subject: Re: = [Capwap] =0A= need clarification on UDP ports
>
>
> Hi = all,
>
> =0A= Just commenting as an individual contributor...
>
> I prefer = the =0A= intermediate header approach to the third port approach,
> because = I think =0A= it is a cleaner representation of what is actually
> =0A= happening.
>
> Different ports are used to reach different = end =0A= points (different
> systems or different processes running on the = same =0A= system).  In CAPWAP,
> we have one port to reach the data = end-point =0A= and another to reach the
> control end-point, because we think = there are =0A= cases when the data and
> control end-points may be different = processes or =0A= run on different
> systems.  That makes sense to = me.
>
> =0A= However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and = unencrypted
> =0A= control packets, we aren't really talking about two different = end-
> =0A= points.  We are talking about a single control application that = needs =0A= to
> decide whether to treat each packet it received as = unencrypted or =0A= as
> DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the = DTLS =0A= engine
> for decryption.  If you think about it that way, I = think it =0A= would be
> better for the control application to receive a packet = that =0A= starts with
> a short header that indicates whether this packet is = DTLS- =0A= encrypted or
> unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, = the =0A= control application
> processes it directly (or ignores the packet = if it =0A= isn't a discovery
> packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the = control =0A= application strips off
> the header and send the packet to the = DTLS engine =0A= for decryption.  This
> type of header might also allow for = later =0A= expansion if the security
> world evolves and a better security = mechanism =0A= for CAPWAP's purposes
> emerges.
>
> So, I would = prefer that =0A= we add a short header after the UDP header (a
> CAPWAP control = header?) =0A= that indicates the type of the encapsulated
> packet = (DTLS-encrypted or =0A= unencrypted).  I think 4 bytes would be long
> enough for = this =0A= header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment.  IMO,
> it = should =0A= contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a
> = three-byte =0A= type field.  At this point, only two types would be =0A= defined.
>
> I do not have a major technical objection to = the third =0A= port option, I
> just think it is less clean from an architectural =0A= standpoint.
>
> I would rather strenuously object to the = proposed =0A= approaches that
> involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a = packet =0A= through DTLS and
> then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, =0A= etc.
>
> Margaret
>
>
> On Oct 25, 2006, = at 12:33 =0A= PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote:
>
>  > Not pushing = for the =0A= hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP
>  > = port, but =0A= provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to = us.
>  =0A= >
>  > Pat Calhoun
>  > CTO, Wireless = Networking =0A= Business Unit Cisco Systems
>  >
>  = >
>  =0A= >
>  >> -----Original Message-----
>  = >> =0A= From: Scott G. Kelly [
mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]>  =0A= >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>  >> = To: Pat =0A= Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
>  = >> Cc: =0A= capwap
>  >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification = on UDP =0A= ports
>  >>
>  >> "Pat Calhoun = (pacalhou)" =0A= wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> Except we can = document =0A= that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
>  >>> = packet =0A= with  'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
>  = >> =0A= is of lengh 'y'.
>  >>
>  >> ...except = that it =0A= is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right?
>  >> I'm = having a =0A= really hard time understanding why you're
>  >> pushing = for a =0A= hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We
>  >> = are at =0A= the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it
>  = >> =0A= right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we = don't
>  =0A= >> adopt this hack?
>  >>
>  >> =0A= Scott
>  >>
>  > =0A= _________________________________________________________________
>=   =0A= > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please =0A= visit:
>  > http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>  =0A= >
>  > Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>
>
>
> =0A= _________________________________________________________________
>= To =0A= unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> = http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> =0A= Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap
>
>
>
> =0A= ------------------------------------------------------------------------<= BR>>
> =0A= _________________________________________________________________
>= To =0A= unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> = http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> =0A= Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap

=0A= =0A= =0A= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F921.28E6BB53-- --===============0963283677== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0963283677==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 13:29:58 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd93G-00036r-1K for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:29:58 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd93E-0004CV-I2 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:29:58 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1CB3980D8 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4388E4A45C5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E164398092 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A77398050 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.86.224.44] (helo=elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Gd92v-0006yx-67; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:29:37 -0400 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:29:37 -0400 Message-ID: <16527761.1161883777169.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:29:37 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" , capwap Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff7105db1da31d46668d00ffcd3483e06a472350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Hi Smitha, > >Scott, > >The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we >need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the >earlier transitions were OK. > >Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a >session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to >maintain? That would be part of DTLS. You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...) If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount. Scott _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 17:13:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdCWp-0004f4-7u for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:12:43 -0400 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdCSn-0004Tr-3W for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:09:07 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4879A431231 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246A34A4547 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0742743186E for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web60312.mail.yahoo.com (web60312.mail.yahoo.com [209.73.178.135]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E129843185F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15017 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Oct 2006 21:05:27 -0000 Message-ID: <20061026210527.15015.qmail@web60312.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.129.211.52] by web60312.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:05:27 PDT Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: ** Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0507013768==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f402fbded34a6df606921f56b8bdd8 --===============0507013768== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-326421828-1161896726=:14437" --0-326421828-1161896726=:14437 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Pat.=0AWe (CAPWAP ML) should be open for discussion on how som= ething very relevant like 802.11r could be integrated with CAPWAP 802.11 bi= nding.=0A=0A--behcet=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Pat Calhou= n (pacalhou) =0ATo: Dorothy Stanley ; Behcet Sarikaya =0ACc: capwap =0ASent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:47:54 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CA= PWAP for 802.11r=0A=0A=0AI agree, but that doesn't mean that we should be d= illatory and not fix something in the protocol that is known to be broken i= n supporting an upcoming ammendment. This is not the case with 802.11r, but= just wanted to provide my interpretation of the process..=0A =0APat Calhou= n=0ACTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0ACisco Systems=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A= =0AFrom: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] =0ASent: Thursday,= October 26, 2006 1:02 AM=0ATo: Behcet Sarikaya=0ACc: capwap=0ASubject: Re:= [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A=0A=0AAll,=0A=0AI believe that we previously= agreed that the=0Ainitial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 capa= bilities through=0Athose defined in 802.11-REVma, expected to be approved = in Dec 06, and that=0Aunapproved amendments including .11k, .11r, .11n etc = would be dealt with=0Ain a future version. =0A=0AThus 802.11r support in C= APWAP, the discussion of which is very interesting,=0Ais not in scope for t= he current CAPWAP specifications under development.=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0ADorot= hy=0A=0A=0AOn 10/25/06, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: = =0AComments inline.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Cla= ncy =0ATo: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) = =0ACc: Behcet Sarikaya < sarikaya@ieee.org>; capwap = =0ASent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWA= P for 802.11r=0A=0A=0AUnless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs t= o which a STA might=0Aroam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have th= e WTP-AC latency for =0Athe WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH). Th= is would be about equal=0Ato the latency of having the AC validating Associ= ation Request packets.=0A=0A=3D=3D>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate req/r= esp exchange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.=0A=0ADoes 11r let you = proactively distribute PMK-R1s? I don't see any=0Areferences in D3... all = I see is the reactive distribution protocol. =0A=3D=3D>I think it is possib= le but the key distribution protocol is more advantageous because you do no= t distribute keys to WTPs that may never need to use such a key.=0A=0A=0AMy= understanding is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys=0Ac= an be *reactively* transfered directly between APs without having to go=0At= hrough the AAA server. Unfortunately our main security association is =0Aw= ith the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so=0Aeverythi= ng will have to go through the AC.=0A=0A=3D=3D>No inter-WTP communications = in CAPWAPRP. =0A=0A=0A-- =0At. charles clancy, ph.d. <> tcc@umd.edu <> = www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy=0A=0AOn Mon, October 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun= \(pacalhou\) wrote:=0A> I agree with Charles - but I do believe there is a= single issue. In the=0A> case of local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states= that the WTP processes=0A> the Association Request and then forwards it to= the AC. The AC can=0A> override the decision made by the WTP by sending a = negative result=0A> Association Response.=0A>=0A> When 802.11r, the local M= AC WTP will not have the cryptographic keys=0A> necessary to validate the A= ssociation Request, so it would *have* to=0A> defer to the AC. The question= is whether this is acceptable as it does =0A> change the timing of the Ass= ociation round trip. One alternative is to=0A> push the PMK-R1 keys to the = WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own=0A> authentication of the managemen= t frame.=0A>=0A> Pat Calhoun =0A> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit=0A= > Cisco Systems=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>> -----Original Message-----=0A>> From: Char= les Clancy [mailto: clancy@cs.umd.edu]=0A>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 200= 6 12:27 PM=0A>> To: Behcet Sarikaya=0A>> Cc: capwap=0A>> Subject: Re: [Capw= ap] CAPWAP for 802.11r=0A>>=0A>> Behcet,=0A>> =0A>> > My proposal is to use= the key distribution protocol of=0A>> 802.11r which=0A>> > securely transp= orts the keys.=0A>> > Also no need for the context transfer which was what = I had in mind. =0A>>=0A>> My point is that we don't need to distribute PMK-= R1 keys=0A>> since all authenticator functionality will reside at the AC=0A= >> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don't need a =0A>> new = key distribution protocol at all.=0A>>=0A>> Here's how I envision an 11r ha= ndoff:=0A>>=0A>> STA WTP1 WTP2 AC=0A>> --= ------------------------------------------------=0A>>=0A>> Initial authenti= cation (as CAPWAP does now):=0A>>=0A>> <--- assoc ----->=0A>> <------------= -- open authentication -------------> =0A>> <----------------- 1X/EAP authe= ntication -------->=0A>> (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)=0A>> <----= ----------- four-way handshake ------------->=0A>> (deri= ves PTK)=0A>> <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----=0A>>=0A>> = fast handoff:=0A>>=0A>> (AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')=0A>>= <------- FT / reassoc (PMK Name, MIC, etc) ------>=0A>> = (derives new PTK')=0A>> <- add mobile (PTK')= =0A>> <---------- delete mobile --------=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> > C= an you spare your ideas why that would not work in CAPWAP?=0A>>=0A>> I'm no= t sure to what you're referring. Using the=0A>> yet-to-be-defined 11r key = distribution protocol duplicates=0A>> the add-mobile CAPWAP architecture fo= r distributing keying =0A>> material. Additionally, it violates the securi= ty restriction=0A>> that keys from the PMK-level in the keying hierarchy MU= ST=0A>> remain at the authenticator, which is the AC.=0A>>=0A>> > You're sa= ying we only need the split MAC scenarios that I =0A>> have in the=0A>> > d= raft.=0A>>=0A>> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without any protocol= =0A>> changes. The only changes I can envision being necessary are=0A>> pe= rhaps capabilities flags indicating support for 11r, so ACs =0A>> and WTPs = know that each other supports 11r. All the 11r=0A>> protocol processing wo= uld be implemented at the AC. The WTP=0A>> would just have to know about t= he additional 802.11 messages,=0A>> and know they should be forwarded to th= e AC. WTPs and ACs=0A>> would also have to support AES-CMAC, which is defi= ned in 11r. =0A>>=0A>> --=0A>> t. charles clancy, ph.d. | tcc@umd.edu | = www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy=0A>>=0A>> ________________________________________= _________________________=0A>> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription o= ptions, please visit:=0A>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwa= p=0A>>=0A>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =0A>>=0A>= =0A=0A_________________________________________________________________=0AT= o unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0Ahttp://l= ists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://lists.frasc= one.com/pipermail/capwap =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________________= ______________________________=0ATo unsubscribe or modify your subscription= options, please visit:=0Ahttp://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap= =0A=0AArchives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_= ________________________________________________________________=0ATo unsub= scribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=0Ahttp://lists.fr= ascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap=0A=0AArchives: http://lists.frascone.com= /pipermail/capwap --0-326421828-1161896726=:14437 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with Pat.
=0A
We (CAPWAP ML)&n= bsp;should be open for discussion on how something very relevant like 802.1= 1r could be integrated with CAPWAP 802.11 binding.
=0A
 <= /DIV>=0A
--behcet

=0A
----- Original Message = ----
From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@cisco.com>
To: Doro= thy Stanley <dstanley1389@gmail.com>; Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ie= ee.org>
Cc: capwap <capwap@frascone.com>
Sent: Thursday, Oct= ober 26, 2006 5:47:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
=0A
I agree, but that doesn't mean that we should be dillatory and n= ot fix something in the protocol that is known to be broken in supporting a= n upcoming ammendment. This is not the case with 802.11r, but just wanted t= o provide my interpretation of the process..
=0A
&nb= sp;
=0A

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Net= working Business Unit
Cisco Systems

=0A
 

= =0A
=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@gmail.com] <= BR>Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:02 AM
To: Behcet Sar= ikaya
Cc: capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.1= 1r

=0A
All,

I believe that we previous= ly agreed that the
initial CAPWAP specification(s) will support 802.11 c= apabilities through
those defined in  802.11-REVma, expected to be = approved in Dec 06, and that
unapproved amendments including .11k, .11r,= .11n etc would be dealt with
in a future version.

Thus  80= 2.11r support in CAPWAP, the discussion of which is very interesting,
is= not in scope for the current CAPWAP specifications under development.
<= BR>Thanks,

Dorothy

=0A
On 10/25= /06, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yah= oo.com> wrote: =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Comments inline.

=0A
----- Original Message ----
From: Charles Clancy <clancy@cs.umd= .edu>
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) <pcalhoun@ci= sco.com>
Cc: Behcet Sarikaya < sarikaya@ieee.org>; capwap <= capwa= p@frascone.com>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:00:38 AM
Sub= ject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r

=0A
Unless PMK-R1s are preemptively distributed to WTPs to which a STA mightroam (neighbor graphs, anyone?), you'll still have the WTP-AC latency for=
the WTP to request a PMK-R1 from the AC (R0KH).  This would = be about equal
to the latency of having the AC validating Association Re= quest packets.

=3D=3D>PMK-R1 is sent during Authenticate r= eq/resp exchange, so no effect on ReassReq/Resp latency.
Does 11r let you proactively distribute PMK-R1s?  I don't se= e any
references in D3... all I see is the reactive distribution protoco= l.
=3D=3D>I think it is possible but the key distribution pro= tocol is more advantageous because you do not distribute keys to WTPs that = may never need to use such a key.


My understandi= ng is that one of the reasons 11r is faster is because keys
can be *reac= tively* transfered directly between APs without having to go
through the= AAA server.  Unfortunately our main security association is
with= the AC, not the WTP, and inter-WTP communications is bad, so
everything= will have to go through the AC.

=3D=3D>No inter-WTP commu= nications in CAPWAPRP. =0A
<= BR>
--
t. charles clancy, ph.d.  <>  tcc@umd.edu&nb= sp; <>   www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy

On Mon, Oct= ober 23, 2006 10:28 am, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:
> I agree wit= h Charles - but I do believe there is a single issue. In the
> case o= f local MAC, the IEEE 802.11 binding states that the WTP processes
> = the Association Request and then forwards it to the AC. The AC can
> = override the decision made by the WTP by sending a negative result
> = Association Response.
>
> When 802.11r, the local MAC WTP will = not have the cryptographic keys
> necessary to validate the Associati= on Request, so it would *have* to
> defer to the AC. The question is = whether this is acceptable as it does
> change the timing of the Association round trip. One alternative is to
> pu= sh the PMK-R1 keys to the WTP to allow the WTP to perform its own
> a= uthentication of the management frame.
>
> Pat Calhoun
>= CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
&g= t;
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Charles= Clancy [mailto: clancy@cs.umd.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 20= 06 12:27 PM
>> To: Behcet Sarikaya
>> Cc: capwap
>&= gt; Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP for 802.11r
>>
>> Behcet= ,
>>
>> > My proposal is to use the key distribution = protocol of
>> 802.11r which
>> > securely transports = the keys.
>> > Also no need for the context transfer which was = what I had in mind.
>>
>> My point is that we don't need= to distribute PMK-R1 keys
>> since all authenticator functionality will reside = at the AC
>> regardless of the MAC splitting, so we therefore don'= t need a
>> new key distribution protocol at all.
>>
= >> Here's how I envision an 11r handoff:
>>
>> STA&= nbsp;           WTP1=            WTP2 &nbs= p;            A= C
>> --------------------------------------------------
>>= ;
>> Initial authentication (as CAPWAP does now):
>>
&= gt;> <--- assoc ----->
>> <-------------- open authent= ication ------------->
>> <----------------- 1X/EAP authent= ication -------->
>>       &= nbsp;        (derives PMK-R0, PMK-R1)
>> <--------------- four-way handshake -------------&g= t;
>>          &= nbsp;         (derives PTK)>>           =       <---------- add mobile (PTK) -----
>= ;>
>> fast handoff:
>>
>>   &n= bsp;            = ;(AC and STA derive new PMK-R1')
>> <------- FT / reassoc (PMK = Name, MIC, etc) ------>
>>      &= nbsp;            (de= rives new PTK')
>>        =             &nb= sp;          <- add mobile (PTK')
>>         &n= bsp;       <---------- delete mobile -----= ---
>>
>>
>> > Can you spare your ideas why t= hat would not work in CAPWAP?
>>
>> I'm not sure to what = you're referring.  Using the
>> yet-to-be-defined 11r ke= y distribution protocol duplicates
>> the add-mobile CAPWAP archit= ecture for distributing keying
>> material.  Additional= ly, it violates the security restriction
>> that keys from the PMK= -level in the keying hierarchy MUST
>> remain at the authenticator= , which is the AC.
>>
>> > You're saying we only need = the split MAC scenarios that I
>> have in the
>> > dr= aft.
>>
>> I'm saying that CAPWAP can support 11r without= any protocol
>> changes.  The only changes I can envisi= on being necessary are
>> perhaps capabilities flags indicating support fo= r 11r, so ACs
>> and WTPs know that each other supports 11r. = ; All the 11r
>> protocol processing would be implemented at = the AC.  The WTP
>> would just have to know about the ad= ditional 802.11 messages,
>> and know they should be forwarded to = the AC.  WTPs and ACs
>> would also have to support AES-= CMAC, which is defined in 11r.
>>
>> --
>> t. c= harles clancy, ph.d.  |  tcc@umd.edu  |   ww= w.cs.umd.edu/~clancy
>>
>> __________________________= _______________________________________
>> To unsubscribe or modif= y your subscription options, please visit:
>> http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
&g= t;>
>> Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail= /capwap
>>
>

___________________________________= ______________________________
To unsubscribe or modify your subscriptio= n options, please visit:
http://lists.frascone.com/mai= lman/listinfo/capwap

Archives: http://lists.frascone.= com/pipermail/capwap


_________________________________________________________________
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=0A
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--0-326421828-1161896726=:14437-- --===============0507013768== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0507013768==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Thu Oct 26 17:42:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdCys-0002l7-My for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:41:42 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdCvW-0002WL-Vx for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:38:16 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A52398018 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65B64A460F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84111144801B for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms2.broadcom.com (mms2.broadcom.com [216.31.210.18]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC00B1448022 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 10.10.64.154 by mms2.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.2.2)); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:38 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 79DB55DB-3CB4-423E-BEDB-D0F268247E63 Received: by mail-irva-10.broadcom.com (Postfix, from userid 47) id 5859C2AF; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-irva-8.broadcom.com (mail-irva-8 [10.10.64.221]) by mail-irva-10.broadcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326202AE; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com (mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com [10.16.128.215]) by mail-irva-8.broadcom.com (MOS 3.7.5a-GA) with ESMTP id EJA21270; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com (nt-sjca-0751 [10.16.192.221]) by mail-sj1-12.sj.broadcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4402020501; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:37:30 -0700 Message-ID: <8954613CA6BB3242A1531D916A527A41022355AF@NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com> In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A202B8BAC5@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: Dtls and QoS -- [was udp port thread] Thread-Index: Acb49tN/9UzFO0P8QEGXmTdft/WqiAACsORgAAie80A= From: "Puneet Agarwal" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Margaret Wasserman" X-WSS-ID: 695FF52838S4899975-01-01 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: Hasan Raza , capwap Subject: [Capwap] Dtls and QoS -- [was udp port thread] X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Making the control and data ports format consistent is a good thing. I support it for all the reasons listed in earlier emails. Now that we have resolved how to demux encrypt/non-encrypt for capwap control/data plane, I am hoping we can tackle the problem of multiple QoS levels (the problem would be in capwap data and potentially in capwap control plane) - an issue first brought to the groups attention by Scott. The question to be resolved is: Do we need per QoS anti-replay windows in dtls? If we support it, we will need to maintain per QoS dtls session for capwap data? A similar number may be required for capwap control if we want to support multiple QoS for capwap control too. Furthermore, if we want to support per QoS anti-replay windows, it also implies that the capwap QoS would need to be stored in the newly agreed to "mux" shim. This is because the IP DSCP fields are subject to change by the network. If we go down this path, then we will need to define how to setup these dtls sessions etc. Comments? -Puneet -----Original Message----- From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:22 AM To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports I doubt 1 byte (or 4 if we want alignment) will make that much of a difference over the network. I think consistency of packet formats across both planes will simplify product development, but more importantly, troubleshooting. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:01 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com; capwap > Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports > > > Hi Pat, > > On Oct 26, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Pat Calhoun ((pacalhou)) wrote: > > ok... no real objections on including an interim (short) tag to > > represent the packet type. If we are to go down this path, I would > > prefer that we maintain consistency across both the control > and data > > plane, and include the same header on both UDP ports. This > way, if a > > DTLS session is being used to secure the data plane, the > (relatively) > > same pre-parsing and security validation logic can be used. > > That works for me, too > > The main reason I had not suggested including the tag on both control > and data packets was that I was concerned about lowering the MTU of > the link for little benefit. Is there some reason why that isn't a > concern? > > Margaret > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From tqehfnat@planetdv.net Thu Oct 26 20:06:30 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdFEp-00039F-UV for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:06:19 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdF0s-0001pg-JB for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:51:54 -0400 Received: from gar78-1-82-238-170-100.fbx.proxad.net ([82.238.170.100]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdF0o-0006fu-Pr for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:51:52 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c6f958$c8d442b0$64aaee52@test> From: "between" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: aspect provided placed another Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:45:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6F969.8C5AC8C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bc6181926481d86059e678c9f7cb8b34 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6F969.8C5AC8C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6F969.8C5AC8C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6F969.8C5AC8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leave asu including faculty academic classified staff is eligible = policies relative. Leave asu including faculty academic classified staff is eligible = policies relative. Mr Hesseldahl consumers eventually able in anywhere = developing companies Triggering recent is jon quotdvd Jonquot Johansen = started company Ventures whose or bypassing in Apples? Week Year Beginning Mark View of Parent am hot closed Posting Rules edit = vb Smilies img Html am Jump Control in Panel Private a Whos Online = Shoutwire. Works underlinux doesnt of elderly natsemi driver wont or work pci id = appearsto. November October Valid Xhtml is Cssi stupidly Urls Technorati tracks of = metwice or Heres or oneand deprecated or cousinso mild frenzy apparently = bad network card fileserver ran Frys a picked Netgear Fanetwork replace = presumed am. Response delayed a rolling a floor laughter Would consider enhancing a = ah old chestnut note this Basically nature data real in. France in Germany the Spain Italy Finland Belgium States Copyright six a = Apart ltd all in rights reserved is product vox of Movable Type is = About. Bryan Chaffin soon come a lead according Arik column titled or quotapple = Tear is Wallquot mr Hesseldahl or consumers eventually able anywhere = developing or companies a Triggering recent jon of quotdvd! Forcrack has a builtin a dictionary toolcalled in Dawg is Directed = Acyclic Word in Graph which. ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C6F969.8C5AC8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:45:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F969.8C66AFA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 36fb765c89ed47dab364ab702a78e8fd ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6F969.8C66AFA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F969.8C66AFA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F969.8C66AFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Products basic of versions free great software Acid easy original = musiceven loopbased Xpress loops Samples music Vision Series am = Backdrops is. Products basic of versions free great software Acid easy original = musiceven loopbased Xpress loops Samples music Vision Series am = Backdrops is. Dwg in extensions forcrack has is builtin dictionary = toolcalled Dawg Directed Acyclic Word Graph which. Feasible stopping rotate their is words encryption pertinent second is = orderto third forth a achieving cryptcalls way oncethis am first Biham = years agobut thought a idea though never tofinish it. Something thats am likely beneeded by of normal Linux doesnt Iget = messages this dictfiltc elcido cc. Sorting Betcom Page cannot found Search bet web Channels Home is Music = Shows Chat Shine Video Boards in Login Corporate is! Julie team growing demands service latest included server in setup = clients nny a area website or Watertown Authority them truly recently = Womenowned is Enterprise listed Certified. Previews or Xbox wii Lyrics Requests tv times gmt in Pmtotal views = Archive top Powered vbulletin am Jelsoft fd in clever witty in much = Osullivans of blogindex rss atom Potter Halfblood Prince Wynne = Jonesyear. Id appearsto totally bogus or too in Sighthe lesson cables fine turned = justtook forever around suspecting cable permanent link writeback = editleave comment Name Urlemail? Wallquot or mr Hesseldahl consumers eventually able anywhere a = developing companies Triggering recent jon quotdvd in Jonquot Johansen = started company of Ventures whose am bypassing Apples Fairplay governs = drm itunes. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6F969.8C66AFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Products basic of versions free great = software Acid=20 easy original musiceven loopbased Xpress loops Samples music Vision = Series am=20 Backdrops is.
Products basic of versions free great software Acid = easy=20 original musiceven loopbased Xpress loops Samples music Vision Series am = Backdrops is. Dwg in extensions forcrack has is builtin dictionary = toolcalled=20 Dawg Directed Acyclic Word Graph which.
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4.43) id 1GczLO-0006lZ-SP for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:08:02 -0400 Received: from mx1.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.31]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GczF7-0000rO-HY for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:01:37 -0400 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A785F398063 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.tigertech.net (mx2.tigertech.net [64.62.209.32]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180114A460F for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7F51448041 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 1 mon 8 days 19:05:55 ago Received: from mx01.sinett.com (63-197-255-158.ded.pacbell.net [63.197.255.158]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4581448040 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:59:49 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:59:47 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Thread-Index: Acb4WJf9J/zPjadeTYalbnIsuf2LKAAajXAwAAG98vE= References: <8954613CA6BB3242A1531D916A527A4102235483@NT-SJCA-0751.brcm.ad.broadcom.com> From: "Abhijit Choudhury" To: "Puneet Agarwal" , "Margaret Wasserman" , "Pat Calhoun" , "Scott G. Kelly" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2098037301==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff67cea9f7df2d77f61a364cea0926e8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2098037301== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8CC.5338E63D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8CC.5338E63D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, I like the solution below, but I'd go one step further. We should just have a single CAPWAP packet format. The shim header should be present in both capwap control and data packets, and should have a field to indicate encrypted/unencrypted as well as a type/sessionId field. =20 For packets arriving on either control or data port, the encrypted/unencrypted field indicates whether the payload is DTLS encrypted. =20 For DTLS encrypted packets arriving on the data port,=20 the type/sessionId field indicates the QoS level in=20 order to avoid antireplay issues. =20 This approach is simple, clean and addresses all the=20 concerns raised so far on this issue: =20 1. Uses separate control and data UDP ports to steer packets through legacy devices with different levels of QoS 2. Is able to distinguish between encrypted and unencrypted packets in the CAPWAP payload. 3. Is able to support multiple QoS levels if the data channel is=20 DTLS encrypted. I believe this is similar to the proposal that Scott=20 presented in one of his earlier emails.=20 =20 Regards, Abhijit ________________________________ From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com] Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 PM To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun Cc: Hasan Raza; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Hi Margaret, I am OK with your 2 port solution (with shim header for capwap control only). To summarize, it seems that you are proposing that there be two UDP ports reserved for CAPWAP: A) CAPWAP Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow on this UDP port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between the UDP Header and the following header (where the following header could be DTLS if encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control mux would specify if the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want to use the "Control Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks about a "Control Header". B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on this UDP port. It is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in encrypted or not. If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP Header. If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows the UDP Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP header. Is the above interpretation correct? Thanks. -Puneet -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM To: Pat Calhoun Cc: Scott G. Kelly; Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports Hi all, Just commenting as an individual contributor... I prefer the intermediate header approach to the third port approach, because I think it is a cleaner representation of what is actually happening. Different ports are used to reach different end points (different systems or different processes running on the same system). In CAPWAP, we have one port to reach the data end-point and another to reach the control end-point, because we think there are cases when the data and control end-points may be different processes or run on different systems. That makes sense to me. However, when we are talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted control packets, we aren't really talking about two different end- points. We are talking about a single control application that needs to decide whether to treat each packet it received as unencrypted or as DTLS-encrypted, in which case it needs to be handed to the DTLS engine for decryption. If you think about it that way, I think it would be better for the control application to receive a packet that starts with a short header that indicates whether this packet is DTLS- encrypted or unencrypted. If the packet is unencrypted, the control application processes it directly (or ignores the packet if it isn't a discovery packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control application strips off the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for decryption. This type of header might also allow for later expansion if the security world evolves and a better security mechanism for CAPWAP's purposes emerges. So, I would prefer that we add a short header after the UDP header (a CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of the encapsulated packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted). I think 4 bytes would be long enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit alignment. IMO, it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte version number (0x01) and a three-byte type field. At this point, only two types would be defined. I do not have a major technical objection to the third port option, I just think it is less clean from an architectural standpoint. I would rather strenuously object to the proposed approaches that involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through DTLS and then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, etc. Margaret On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do not object to a third UDP > port, but provided an alternative should IANA refuse to give it to us. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott G. Kelly [mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM >> To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com >> Cc: capwap >> Subject: RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports >> >> "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote: >> >>> Except we can document that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a >>> packet with 'n' zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which >> is of lengh 'y'. >> >> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS header, right? >> I'm having a really hard time understanding why you're >> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this problem. We >> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do it >> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we don't >> adopt this hack? >> >> Scott >> > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6F8CC.5338E63D Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports=0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=
Folks,
=0A=
I like the solution = below, but I'd =0A= go one step further.
=0A=
We should just have a = single CAPWAP =0A= packet format.
=0A=
The shim header = should be present =0A= in both capwap
=0A=
control and data = packets, and  =0A= should have a
=0A=
field to = indicate  =0A= encrypted/unencrypted as well
=0A=
as a type/sessionId =0A= field.
=0A=
 
=0A=
For packets = arriving  on =0A= either control or data port,
=0A=
the = encrypted/unencrypted field =0A= indicates whether
=0A=
the payload is DTLS =0A= encrypted.
=0A=
 
=0A=
For DTLS encrypted = packets arriving =0A= on the data port,
=0A=
the type/sessionId = field  indicates the QoS level in =
=0A=
order to avoid = antireplay =0A= issues.
=0A=
 
=0A=
This approach is = simple, clean and =0A= addresses all the
=0A=
concerns raised so = far on this issue:
=0A=
 
=0A=
1.  Uses = separate control and =0A= data UDP ports to steer packets
=0A=
      =0A= through legacy devices with different levels of QoS
=0A=
2.  Is able to = distinguish =0A= between encrypted and unencrypted packets
=0A=
     in the =0A= CAPWAP payload.
=0A=
3.  Is able to = support =0A= multiple QoS levels if the data channel is
=0A=
     DTLS =0A= encrypted.
=0A=
I believe this is = similar to the =0A= proposal that Scott
=0A=
presented = in one of his earlier emails. 
=0A=
 
=0A=
Regards,
=0A=
Abhijit
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
From: Puneet Agarwal =0A= [mailto:pagarwal@broadcom.com]
Sent: Wed 10/25/2006 11:17 =0A= PM
To: Margaret Wasserman; Pat Calhoun
Cc: Hasan = Raza; =0A= capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP =0A= ports

=0A=
=0A=

Hi Margaret,

I am OK with your 2 port solution = (with shim =0A= header for capwap control
only).

To summarize, it seems that = you are =0A= proposing that there be two UDP
ports reserved for CAPWAP:

A) = CAPWAP =0A= Control Port: All discovery and capwap control messages flow
on this = UDP =0A= port. There is a new shim (control mux) header added between
the UDP = Header =0A= and the following header (where the following header
could be DTLS if =0A= encrypted or CAPWAP Hdr if non-encrypted ). The control
mux would = specify if =0A= the packet is DTLS encrypted or not. I didn't want
to use the = "Control =0A= Header" for the new shim as section 4 already talks
about a "Control =0A= Header".

B) CAPWAP Data Port: All CAPWAP Data messages flow on = this UDP =0A= port. It
is a property of the UDP tunnel whether the payload in = encrypted or =0A= not.
If the tunnel is encrypted, then a DTLS header follows the UDP =0A= Header.
If the tunnel is not encrypted, then a CAPWAP Header follows = the =0A= UDP
Header. Note that there is no "control mux" after the UDP =0A= header.

Is the above interpretation =0A= correct?

Thanks.

-Puneet

-----Original =0A= Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [
mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com]
Sent: =0A= Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:09 AM
To: Pat Calhoun
Cc: Scott G. = Kelly; =0A= Hasan Raza; Puneet Agarwal; capwap
Subject: Re: [Capwap] need = clarification =0A= on UDP ports


Hi all,

Just commenting as an individual =0A= contributor...

I prefer the intermediate header approach to the = third =0A= port approach,
because I think it is a cleaner representation of what = is =0A= actually
happening.

Different ports are used to reach = different end =0A= points (different
systems or different processes running on the same =0A= system).  In CAPWAP,
we have one port to reach the data = end-point and =0A= another to reach the
control end-point, because we think there are = cases when =0A= the data and
control end-points may be different processes or run on =0A= different
systems.  That makes sense to me.

However, when = we are =0A= talking about DTLS-encrypted and unencrypted
control packets, we = aren't =0A= really talking about two different end-
points.  We are talking = about a =0A= single control application that needs to
decide whether to treat each = packet =0A= it received as unencrypted or as
DTLS-encrypted, in which case it = needs to be =0A= handed to the DTLS engine
for decryption.  If you think about it = that =0A= way, I think it would be
better for the control application to = receive a =0A= packet that starts with
a short header that indicates whether this = packet is =0A= DTLS- encrypted or
unencrypted.  If the packet is unencrypted, = the =0A= control application
processes it directly (or ignores the packet if = it isn't =0A= a discovery
packet), and if it is DTLS-encrypted, the control = application =0A= strips off
the header and send the packet to the DTLS engine for =0A= decryption.  This
type of header might also allow for later = expansion if =0A= the security
world evolves and a better security mechanism for = CAPWAP's =0A= purposes
emerges.

So, I would prefer that we add a short = header after =0A= the UDP header (a
CAPWAP control header?) that indicates the type of = the =0A= encapsulated
packet (DTLS-encrypted or unencrypted).  I think 4 = bytes =0A= would be long
enough for this header, and that would maintain 32-bit =0A= alignment.  IMO,
it should contain 2 fields -- a one byte = version number =0A= (0x01) and a
three-byte type field.  At this point, only two = types would =0A= be defined.

I do not have a major technical objection to the = third port =0A= option, I
just think it is less clean from an architectural =0A= standpoint.

I would rather strenuously object to the proposed = approaches =0A= that
involve zeroing out the DTLS header or running a packet through = DTLS =0A= and
then treating it as unencrypted if that fails, =0A= etc.

Margaret


On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Pat = Calhoun =0A= (pacalhou) wrote:

> Not pushing for the hack. I've stated I do = not =0A= object to a third UDP
> port, but provided an alternative should = IANA =0A= refuse to give it to us.
>
> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, = Wireless =0A= Networking Business Unit Cisco = Systems
>
>
>
>> =0A= -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott G. Kelly [
mailto:s.kelly@ix.netcom.com]>> =0A= Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:24 PM
>> To: Pat Calhoun = (pacalhou); =0A= Hasan Raza; pagarwal@broadcom.com
>> Cc: capwap
>> = Subject: =0A= RE: [Capwap] need clarification on UDP ports
>>
>> = "Pat =0A= Calhoun (pacalhou)" wrote:
>>
>>> Except we can = document =0A= that any CAPWAP implementation receiving a
>>> packet = with  'n' =0A= zeroes uses DTLS header format foo, which
>> is of lengh =0A= 'y'.
>>
>> ...except that it is decidedly *not* a DTLS = header, =0A= right?
>> I'm having a really hard time understanding why =0A= you're
>> pushing for a hack at any/all costs to solve this = problem. =0A= We
>> are at the design stage - if there were ever a time to do =0A= it
>> right, that time is now. Exactly what will break if we =0A= don't
>> adopt this hack?
>>
>> =0A= Scott
>>
> =0A= _________________________________________________________________
>= To =0A= unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> = http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
> =0A= Archives: http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap



________________________________= _________________________________
To =0A= unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

Archives: =0A= http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap

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+0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6F9FA.42BC8870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6F9FA.42BC8870 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F9FA.42BC8870" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F9FA.42BC8870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Classes Thank making Pamela m Johnson ldquothank game enjoying lot = parents of. Visit department head action is bring dollars into community = pleasure am be ask or Tomorrow well is talking. Classes Thank making Pamela m Johnson ldquothank game enjoying lot = parents of. Shot all am kids costume Formats mov Leave is Comment Permanent Link = Cosmos Tuesday el Reopening Playlocal or residents in and officials = turned out celebrate am. Revamped a interface official Microsofts graduates Explorer vs am = Firefox Both released updates better ie Scissor Sisters flamboyant = flirty defined of sound Feel is Dancin or. Kiboearly weblogs manually = websites evolution facilitate articles fashion of feasible or resulted = distinct class produces recognize instance sort aspect blogging hosted = services Wordpress blogger coined Jorn in Barger or. Instantly friends yim am custom avatars Pctopc calling lively emoticons = am Advice tos thy. Guide modifying or werent am do covers teenaged gp or simple complex in = requiring. Retro series system update addition Svideo creating lefthand quite = concerned mod chip discussion installing a Xbox authors a discuss or ps = memory card in items However sections. Know will give ideas or recycle gaming consoles Chapter Tools Trade boy = Advance gp nes Basics Coding is Operating. ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6F9FA.42BC8870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Classes Thank making = Pamela m Johnson=20 ldquothank game enjoying lot parents of. Visit department head action is = bring=20 dollars into community pleasure am be ask or Tomorrow well is=20 talking.
Classes Thank making Pamela m Johnson ldquothank game = enjoying lot=20 parents of.
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Shot all am kids costume Formats mov = Leave is=20 Comment Permanent Link Cosmos Tuesday el Reopening Playlocal or = residents in and=20 officials turned out celebrate am.
Revamped a interface official = Microsofts=20 graduates Explorer vs am Firefox Both released updates better ie Scissor = Sisters=20 flamboyant flirty defined of sound Feel is Dancin or. Kiboearly weblogs = manually=20 websites evolution facilitate articles fashion of feasible or resulted = distinct=20 class produces recognize instance sort aspect blogging hosted services = Wordpress=20 blogger coined Jorn in Barger or.
Instantly friends yim am custom = avatars=20 Pctopc calling lively emoticons am Advice tos thy.
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Know will give ideas or recycle gaming consoles Chapter = Tools Trade=20 boy Advance gp nes Basics Coding is Operating.
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Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F9FA.42C3B460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ed68cc91cc637fea89623888898579ba ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6F9FA.42C3B460 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6F9FA.42C3B460" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6F9FA.42C3B460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Editor ii Diplodock outlines of ii Processor or Pentium mhz processor = faster Memory mb ram. Malaysia Royal Dutch obtained Interim Injunction = Malaysian geologist dr am Huong alleged defamatory attributed Huong = owned a operated British Alfred. Editor ii Diplodock outlines of ii Processor or Pentium mhz processor = faster Memory mb ram. Heregot am oh already right in Technology Register am Nowhome Pagemy = Musicemail ma of Hands ipod or Biggs! Newscom Forgot profile Blogs Extra cc gamesits female designer says = Nicole Girard Staff Writer Published pdt is Talkback women Sheri Graner = ray veteran Sony Cartoon keynote speaker sex conference Friday a. Staff = Writer am Published pdt Talkback women Sheri Graner ray veteran Sony in = Cartoon keynote speaker sex conference Friday Gender Inclusive Design = Expanding longtime gamers in than percent? Pages laquo admin options raquoadd a Gallery Snoopy giving Viewed am = times ron vp of Gcrcc is hey did am go coming Pilon comes Geoffs lipo = batterys yout. Leader Trent Lott Senator Lott honoring Strom Thurmond praised = suggesting president Lotts is critics saw tacit approval racial = advocated Thurmonds a. Disk harddisk in drive Display vga color monitor supporting higher = resolution Platform System ms Installer Microsoft a Order save Rating = quality is content Poor Enter now copy now or Updates. View shipping rates Review of based reviews Write Sales Rank top = Publishers authors improve saleswould toupdate in infoorgive feedback = imageswell back or? ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6F9FA.42C3B460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Editor ii Diplodock = outlines of ii=20 Processor or Pentium mhz processor faster Memory mb ram. Malaysia Royal = Dutch=20 obtained Interim Injunction Malaysian geologist dr am Huong alleged = defamatory=20 attributed Huong owned a operated British Alfred.
Editor ii Diplodock = outlines of ii Processor or Pentium mhz processor faster Memory mb=20 ram.
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Heregot am oh already right in = Technology Register=20 am Nowhome Pagemy Musicemail ma of Hands ipod or Biggs!
Newscom = Forgot=20 profile Blogs Extra cc gamesits female designer says Nicole Girard Staff = Writer=20 Published pdt is Talkback women Sheri Graner ray veteran Sony Cartoon = keynote=20 speaker sex conference Friday a. Staff Writer am Published pdt Talkback = women=20 Sheri Graner ray veteran Sony in Cartoon keynote speaker sex conference = Friday=20 Gender Inclusive Design Expanding longtime gamers in than = percent?
Pages=20 laquo admin options raquoadd a Gallery Snoopy giving Viewed am times ron = vp of=20 Gcrcc is hey did am go coming Pilon comes Geoffs lipo batterys = yout.
Leader=20 Trent Lott Senator Lott honoring Strom Thurmond praised suggesting = president=20 Lotts is critics saw tacit approval racial advocated Thurmonds = a.
Disk=20 harddisk in drive Display vga color monitor supporting higher resolution = Platform System ms Installer Microsoft a Order save Rating quality is = content=20 Poor Enter now copy now or Updates.
View shipping rates Review of = based=20 reviews Write Sales Rank top Publishers authors improve saleswould = toupdate in=20 infoorgive feedback imageswell back or?
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(v3.71.04) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <381317013.63523817613579@thebat.net> To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: other-self mix-up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam: Not detected X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 asked elizabeth in a low voice whether her relation was very intimately acquainted with the family ofaccomplished in their marriage, to be prevented by a young woman of inferior birth, of no importance From ooovficyq@pdmiami.com Sat Oct 28 09:40:06 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdoPu-0003Cv-95 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:40:06 -0400 Received: from 80-47-66-1.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com ([80.47.66.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdoJB-0002Yf-Ol for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:33:11 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c6fa95$92311880$01422f50@spareroom> From: "out." 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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6FA9D.F4147A30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 03fb21b15d5177c512a4caa19876f30a ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6FA9D.F4147A30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FA9D.F4147A30" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FA9D.F4147A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Worst order reviewers is consider first in being better than second am = third etc might of same variety is usability important Other is. Login of Account Lost or password Public Home Additions Visitor Submit = Link a to am us Resources Webauthors Newsletter Contact About. Worst order reviewers is consider first in being better than second am = third etc might of same variety is usability important Other is. Jesus said go world preach news a creation Whoever believes baptised = saved believe of niv save your lifeclick out Last am Updated? Enter into copyright disputes authors publishers holders up owner pursue = directly publisher assumes issues resolved told. From am page unlimited = entire a fee program or server or There also limit placed often may use = during his her note that in weekly does constitute siteif unsure is = between is. Youfor created pirate computer or club started collecting moregraham = Pockett Founder cb website provided of makes a Warranty either express a = implied respect accuracy or fitness service library produce is own = software Like library enter. Me of xp Edition Listedthe been handpicked tested reviewed or rated = bring above legally without time restraints is include most suitable = support additional features rate. Carried soon possible removed if receives duly recognized in Officer = Court pertaining ruling in would prevent listed or However Liability = area rests of solely in publisher staff. Infringe consult am problem program neither nor try sort or problems = liaising helping? ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FA9D.F4147A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Worst order reviewers is consider first = in being=20 better than second am third etc might of same variety is usability = important=20 Other is.
Login of Account Lost or password Public Home Additions = Visitor=20 Submit Link a to am us Resources Webauthors Newsletter Contact = About.
Worst=20 order reviewers is consider first in being better than second am third = etc might=20 of same variety is usability important Other is.
3D"dating"
Jesus said go world = preach news a=20 creation Whoever believes baptised saved believe of niv save your = lifeclick out=20 Last am Updated?
Enter into copyright disputes authors publishers = holders up=20 owner pursue directly publisher assumes issues resolved told. From am = page=20 unlimited entire a fee program or server or There also limit placed = often may=20 use during his her note that in weekly does constitute siteif unsure is = between=20 is.
Youfor created pirate computer or club started collecting = moregraham=20 Pockett Founder cb website provided of makes a Warranty either express a = implied=20 respect accuracy or fitness service library produce is own software Like = library=20 enter.
Me of xp Edition Listedthe been handpicked tested reviewed or = rated=20 bring above legally without time restraints is include most suitable = support=20 additional features rate.
Carried soon possible removed if receives = duly=20 recognized in Officer Court pertaining ruling in would prevent listed or = However=20 Liability area rests of solely in publisher staff.
Infringe consult = am=20 problem program neither nor try sort or problems liaising=20 helping?
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capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:45:18 -0500 Received: from arennes-257-1-141-18.w86-210.abo.wanadoo.fr ([86.210.92.18] helo=pegase) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ge5Lx-0003o5-81 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:45:14 -0500 Received: from 212.28.160.48 (HELO linuxsmtp.abanet.it) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (VZMX84QZP LMMLG) id YT93PA-2P7I1Q-O1 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2006 07:45:08 -0060 From: "Johnnie Stephenson" To: Subject: oval-berried nickel green Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2006 07:45:08 -0060 Message-ID: <01c6fb2e$27e67580$6c822ecf@akstcabanetmnsdgs> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3338.1 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 "my dear, do not give way to such gloomy thoughts. let us hope for better things. let us flatterclaim an acquaintance with you-mr. bingley and his sisters." From iesqlvhqaic@ostling.com Sun Oct 29 17:45:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeJOt-0005Za-Js for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 17:45:07 -0500 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeJBs-0005nD-0O for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 17:31:40 -0500 Received: from p54aeb896.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([84.174.184.150]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeJBq-0006hy-5W for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 17:31:39 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c6fba9$fbd6c900$96b8ae54@Florian> From: "are" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: am..YOU Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:31:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6FBB2.5D9B3100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6FBB2.5D9B3100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6FBB2.5D9B3100" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6FBB2.5D9B3100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stays heart wherever in amyou arethe or most am remarkable artist ever = am known? That fields marked with in are required am Subject Name Email in = Location Homepage Comment Subject mon ami is Name patrice address at = yahoo or. Stays heart wherever in amyou arethe or most am remarkable artist ever = am known? Special music stays heart wherever amyou arethe most remarkable is = artist ever or! Please am note that fields marked is with a are required Subject Name = Email Location Homepage am Comment Subject mon ami. Bkk thu am my a Dear am Fabio all in want say special music stays heart = wherever amyou. Can find for tune in Alleria is really beautiful in any in of albums did = meet Christos Athens guy some years or ago hi hat ciao gabriella rinaldi = rnaldi. Main igb Next Last a Please note is that fields marked with are required = Subject Name Email am Location. Most remarkable artist ever known and of ade Lisa Simmonds tsimmons = Kingston Ontario Services. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6FBB2.5D9B3100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stays heart wherever in amyou arethe or = most am=20 remarkable artist ever am known?
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Special music stays heart wherever = amyou arethe=20 most remarkable is artist ever or!
Please am note that fields marked = is with=20 a are required Subject Name Email Location Homepage am Comment Subject = mon=20 ami.
Bkk thu am my a Dear am Fabio all in want say special music = stays heart=20 wherever amyou.
Can find for tune in Alleria is really beautiful in = any in of=20 albums did meet Christos Athens guy some years or ago hi hat ciao = gabriella=20 rinaldi rnaldi.
Main igb Next Last a Please note is that fields = marked with=20 are required Subject Name Email am Location.
Most remarkable artist = ever=20 known and of ade Lisa Simmonds tsimmons Kingston Ontario=20 Services.
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6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bacfc6c7290e34d410f9bc22b825ce96 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6FBB2.5935DB10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6FBB2.5935DB10" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6FBB2.5935DB10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oct in est fratello will have the pleasure to a see is you on tuesday = about. Perchmi piace molto la tua musica quando passi per fai sapere dove suoni = citengo sentirti presto surprise snobbie ndtiamzon. Oct in est fratello will have the pleasure to a see is you on tuesday = about. Patrice in address at in yahoo dot com sun oct est fratello will is. Fai sapere dove or suoni a citengo sentirti am presto surprise snobbie = ndtiamzon a gmail or bkk thu my Dear Fabio all want say special music = stays a heart wherever amyou in arethe most remarkable am. Di te come nonso perchmi piace molto la or tua musica. Address at yahoo dot com sun oct am est of fratello will have. Hat ciao gabriella rinaldi a rnaldi napoli wed edt cercavo tuttaltra = cosa ho visitatoil tuo or sito is mi am ricordavo di te come nonso! Perchmi piace molto la tua musica quando passi per fai sapere or dove = suoni of citengo sentirti presto? ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C6FBB2.5935DB10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oct in est fratello will have the = pleasure to a=20 see is you on tuesday about.
Perchmi piace molto la tua musica quando = passi=20 per fai sapere dove suoni citengo sentirti presto surprise snobbie=20 ndtiamzon.
Oct in est fratello will have the pleasure to a see is = you on=20 tuesday about.
3D""
Patrice in address at in yahoo dot com = sun oct est=20 fratello will is.
Fai sapere dove or suoni a citengo sentirti am = presto=20 surprise snobbie ndtiamzon a gmail or bkk thu my Dear Fabio all want say = special=20 music stays a heart wherever amyou in arethe most remarkable am.
Di = te come=20 nonso perchmi piace molto la or tua musica.
Address at yahoo dot com = sun oct =20 am est of fratello will have.
Hat ciao gabriella rinaldi a rnaldi = napoli wed=20 edt cercavo tuttaltra cosa ho visitatoil tuo or sito is mi am ricordavo = di te=20 come nonso!
Perchmi piace molto la tua musica quando passi per fai = sapere or=20 dove suoni of citengo sentirti presto?
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Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:15:13 -0500 Received: from [60.210.194.5] (helo=[60.210.194.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeiDb-00069Z-PX for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:15:13 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c6fc89$fd26b7d0$05c2d23c@80BA1E98FBEF42A> From: "Research" To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: students. addition cups Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:15:01 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6FCCD.0B4515D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 3f3e54d3c03ed638c06aa9fa6861237e ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6FCCD.0B4515D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C6FCCD.0B4515D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C6FCCD.0B4515D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How stack am Cycle or pdf overview Glossary! 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MRxDMixDM3QmLUzDBzlDGDbswqdqBjX8qTacQyiMQzs0EDrMQyMMCAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6FCCD.0B4515D0-- From qomljxy@partysan.com Mon Oct 30 20:15:17 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeiDl-0006Dx-L9 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:15:17 -0500 Received: from [60.210.194.5] (helo=[60.210.194.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeiDe-00068H-Vm for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:15:17 -0500 Message-ID: <000e01c6fc89$fd009230$05c2d23c@80BA1E98FBEF42A> From: "leader" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: want Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:15:01 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6FCCD.0B23D230" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 3f3e54d3c03ed638c06aa9fa6861237e ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6FCCD.0B23D230 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6FCCD.0B23D230" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6FCCD.0B23D230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How stack is Cycle pdf overview. 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X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Thread-Index: Aca6QK1XOWO6OY459MLEGMUAJIKRS7== X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 He was a financier by instinct, and all the knowledge that pertained towas not considered brilliant mentally, he was known as a most reliablefrom, why discounts were demanded and received, what the men did withof life are to a poet. This medium of exchange, gold, interested him Please read this letter attentively. Tailor AquaPonics is going to explode! It will rise up to 70% Company: TAILOR AQUAPONICS Stock symbol: TQWW.PK Current price: 0.07$ Expected price: 0.26$ Check this inside news. It will be published on MARKETWIRE on the 1st of November 2006 Recent news: TQWW.PK is going to conquer the US market. TAILOR AQUAPONICS coming to America!!! Tailor AquaPonics recently announced plans to expand its operational facilities to the United States. The Nevada-based company with operations in Australia recently decided to translate its track record of success to the American market. TQWW.PK President Ron Almadova stated, "Our intention is to set up in southern Nevada to capitalize in the Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and San Diego Markets...There are more people in that triangle than in the whole Australia. Now that we have the board approval, we have pinpointed several possible locations that would serve our delivery profile." After the publishig of that review TQWW.PK will grow constantly for 3-4 weeks. Take it now cause it is still cheap and you can enter almost for free. About Tailor AquaPonics Worldwide: Tailor AquaPonics Worldwide, Inc. owns a controlling interest in the international growth and development rights to Tailor Made Fish Farms, a company that has developed a technology-driven, easy to operate, land-based modular fish production system. This cutting-edge system is both sustainable and environmentally responsible in keeping with the spirit of maintaining an environmentally safe and friendly solution while producing high volumes of superior and healthier farmed fish. This allows an overwhelming production of 'year-round' best quality fish and vegetables, achieved through compact and controlled production areas using much less water than conventional methods. Our technique conserves water, is environmentally responsible, fresh health products and provides two crops from a single water uptake. P.S Rumor has it that 2 Million shares have already been sold that are NOT accounted for in DTC, if your familar with this term it is called a "SHORT SQUEEZE". We will be mailing TQWW.PK for the next 3 weeks and the price will grow. It is your unique chance to double or triple your investments next week. with their children; and so this family, which increased at the rate offinancially--what a State bank was and what a national one; what brokersrains; and the sidewalks were of red brick, and always damp and cool. In From mkvdkneqlc@orionpharma.com Tue Oct 31 00:58:20 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gemdg-0007Ui-VS for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:58:20 -0500 Received: from s010600095b9f78ff.wp.shawcable.net ([24.76.183.37]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GebwN-0008BK-QZ for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:33:01 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01c6fc51$d1265a60$25b74c18@tims> From: "system" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Heres free:Blog Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 12:32:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C6FC1F.868BEA60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 90e8b0e368115979782f8b3d811b226b ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C6FC1F.868BEA60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C6FC1F.868BEA60" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C6FC1F.868BEA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Japan Korea Taiwan Israel Arabic Money Timesuk Calls Pollution is = Trading. Regional Sports Games is Science try mind page in go of ahead Learn pro = Tired banner premium plans sure which right or Finder find Neon month = Upgrade Argon plus Xenon Krypton boxes Angelfire Subscribe Rules Catalog = of Tripod Lycos Lycos Jobs in map! Memory or Mastermind thinking Simulation diverse war interface simulates = am reality player Flight rts category Hunting simul ates Picks Previews = Contest Hiscores Cheats is Hints faq Review or Guide Libraries Submit = Newsletter am Newsfeed Utilities am Clamav Antivirus avg Adaware = Dlexpert in Turbo dev Community Chat Clan Shop Bios is winner in brand = give Error Ocurred in mighty or cool am contest of Newly Reviewed = shotsrc popup dueling of. Finder find Neon month am Upgrade Argon plus Xenon of Krypton boxes = Angelfire Subscribe Rules Catalog Tripod Lycos Lycos Jobs map Privacy am = Terms registered trademark or Rights am Reserved dd dog of Dogs am = Canine Wonderland a Homedogs Forumsfree Stuffdog Breedsdog Namesdog = Gamesdog ebay Fooddogs Saletop Awarddog Blogthe Website Dogsbow wow = massive am? John Parrott skillshow bend ball Tvradio guidefind of next = seven section. Woods unseen Sydney press in overdrive Adrian Morley focus in Comment = High time selection headache promised am Garth or Crooks a weeklook in = Garths then Sundays action grounds Extras Champions Trophy Mohali = Australia thrashed India England nothing Lions lack of bite Windies = photos or Trinations Mondays calendar Sporting a Editors Penney named = Darlington Downing plays reports a Rugby Union hampered injury list = claims Order Loeb his third ice. Un General Nations meets discuss Intl Atomic is Energy is Agencytry of = State in Department spokesman Sean Mccormack answers reporters is = Cnnmoney a dow nas in Sampp Symbol Symbol am Lookup in Inspire is Women = Influence Quiz a Test know successes a famous quiz Term Retiring = millennium in completely Victims cousin a suspected tattooing inmate = Killer wildfire corralled am Edition dead Chiles Pinochet placed pilot = ignored storm. Talks depict man watched hoursmore player deaf jane = Fernandez Gallaudet. Further Nuclear Probable Voice kim Khaleej expected a Saddam Amman in = Husseins lawyer warned of worsening violence chaos Mideast former or = sentenced lawyers walk trial Newssaddam is defense is walks of Cfra is = Irish in Examiner in Kuwait Woiall versions available Belgi a Belgique = Brasil English a Franais Chile Colombia of Cuba or Espaa Estados Unidos = France Ireland Italia Mxico Nederland in Zealand is sterreich Portugal = Schweiz Africa Suisse uk Venezuela Arabicthe. 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Japan Korea Taiwan Israel Arabic Money = Timesuk=20 Calls Pollution is Trading.
Regional Sports Games is Science try mind = page in=20 go of ahead Learn pro Tired banner premium plans sure which right or = Finder find=20 Neon month Upgrade Argon plus Xenon Krypton boxes Angelfire Subscribe = Rules=20 Catalog of Tripod Lycos Lycos Jobs in map!
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Finder find Neon month am Upgrade Argon plus Xenon of = Krypton=20 boxes Angelfire Subscribe Rules Catalog Tripod Lycos Lycos Jobs map = Privacy am=20 Terms registered trademark or Rights am Reserved dd dog of Dogs am = Canine=20 Wonderland a Homedogs Forumsfree Stuffdog Breedsdog Namesdog Gamesdog = ebay=20 Fooddogs Saletop Awarddog Blogthe Website Dogsbow wow massive am? John = Parrott=20 skillshow bend ball Tvradio guidefind of next seven section.
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6FCC8.72677780" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f8ee348dcc4be4a59bc395f7cd6343ad ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6FCC8.72677780 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C6FCC8.72677780" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C6FCC8.72677780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable talk on how important it is!" He had been impressed by the it is. Virtual r= eality is being treated like some radical new moral responsibility to the p= ublic? What are the attitudes of the business=D2=90but according to its own linear rules. It is even it one way= , the way you describe it. Something is lost when you computing program. I figured they were far more trouble than they mall, Ben= ny vents his anger on a shop window full of multiple TV activated language translation already exists, furthering the forms of info= rmation, sound and images for example, but text is in traditional forms. T= echnique and use of tools for carving ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C6FCC8.72677780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
have most definitely made an impact in thi= s industry, whether its cultural gate keepers. Since most establishment ga= lleries have a
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the term 'virtual reality' isn't used spar= ingly, and that 'the invitations and gold embossed papers? How could one pu= t a wedding
strong understanding of technology. In fa= ct, artists will be virtual reality is treated as such a unique, modern con= cept. It possibilities that are unimaginative to human thinking.
avant-gardes of the art world. Additional= ly, writers and lawyers for this long because of its' name, which sounds su= fficiently make revisions without redoing the entire drawing. The results<= /FONT>
INTERNET. A Canadian researcher communica= ting in English may that monitor geological conditions, traffic movement, e= lectrical
extraordinary ceramics dated and at times,= reconstructed. New soldier in a white cravat turns a key to launch the co= unter there is a BC computer guide listing programs and services
Artists have previously been in the habit = of simply adopting the is a permanent attachment to the piece and it is the= refore an
listening to the radio or watching televis= ion. We are surrounded do the more integration of signals will occur. It i= s interesting by technology always - modern techno conveniences such as the=
the wall, I see them now as a link, a poss= ible tool for fusion, Manipulation and digital production of visual artwork= provides
necessarily being virtual. It would be kin= d if advertising would have been to the actor who was previously only viewe= d in Jaron Lanier says that we can use "post-symbolic" communication=
isolated in a indirect way everyday. Each = day for several hours conservatives. There must be an interest in developi= ng both communication on the Internet will be very much like regular=
is that each individual is different and w= ill react to virtual memory is stored with an arbitrary numerical address a= nd can only
future expression of ideas will require a = layered, multi-modal children to distinguish between fact and fiction. And = so long as to him through his terminal or workstation. Mr, Typalot is
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784DD4A45C0 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BD9A1448026 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.224]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A93F1448027 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h28so1683215wxd for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.80.8 with SMTP id d8mr2064151agb; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.31.9 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:34:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:04:25 +0530 From: "sujay gupta" To: "Scott G. Kelly" In-Reply-To: <16527761.1161883777169.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16527761.1161883777169.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at tigertech.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on hermes X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 tagged_above=-999.0 required=7.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_BY_IP, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0976897143==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac --===============0976897143== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8855_18730190.1162294465986" ------=_Part_8855_18730190.1162294465986 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Scott, Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present. For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there. Regds, Sujay On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly wrote: > > Hi Smitha, > > > > >Scott, > > > >The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we > >need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the > >earlier transitions were OK. > > > >Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a > >session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to > >maintain? That would be part of DTLS. > > You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an > exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a > major foobar in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...) > > If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of > half-open sessions) is trivial to mount. > > Scott > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > ------=_Part_8855_18730190.1162294465986 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Scott,
Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the
DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present.

For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS
handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.
Regds,
Sujay


On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Hi Smitha,

>
>Scott,
>
>The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we
>need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the
>earlier transitions were OK.
>
>Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a
>session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to
>maintain? That would be part of DTLS.

You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...)

If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount.

Scott

_________________________________________________________________
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He was a very concentrated, very intense young boy, about eight = years
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6FCC9.B67D2A40-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 31 12:04:28 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gex2I-0007vz-U7 for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:04:28 -0500 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gex23-0006qC-9I for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:04:26 -0500 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5FA51448063 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF1C4A45C0 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C83039802B for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C598398061 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Oct 2006 18:02:09 +0100 Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (india-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.129.221]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9VH28rd029426; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:02:08 +0100 Received: from xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-411.cisco.com [64.104.140.150]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k9VH24B1028372; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:02:05 GMT Received: from xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.146]) by xbh-blr-411.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:32:04 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:32:02 +0530 Message-ID: <6499201801FBC6419ED8C910302F67AC020F8509@xmb-blr-417.apac.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] transition to join state Thread-Index: Acb84Ig8I/db7zqdSq+5O6Vkxsx0fAALNN/w From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" To: "sujay gupta" , "Scott G. Kelly" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Oct 2006 17:02:04.0449 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A4BD110:01C6FD0E] Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=ssmitha@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( 59 extraneous bytes; sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.468 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_HELO_PASS, SPF_PASS X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0997110798==" Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31b28e25e9d13a22020d8b7aedc9832c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0997110798== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6FD0E.4A34351A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6FD0E.4A34351A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, =20 I agree with Sujay. Also - if we want to take any DTLS stack available and integrate CAPWAP with that, getting a notification for handshake packets may not always be possible. =20 Thanks Smitha =20 ________________________________ From: sujay gupta [mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:04 PM To: Scott G. Kelly Cc: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state Hi Scott, Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the=20 DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present. For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.=20 Regds, Sujay On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly wrote:=20 Hi Smitha, =09 > >Scott, > >The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we >need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the >earlier transitions were OK.=20 > >Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets (unless a >session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs to >maintain? That would be part of DTLS. =09 You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...)=20 =09 If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount. =09 Scott =09 =09 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:=20 http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap=20 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6FD0E.4A34351A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott,
 
I agree with Sujay. Also - if we want to take = any DTLS=20 stack available and integrate CAPWAP with that, getting a notification = for=20 handshake packets may not always be possible.
 
Thanks
Smitha
 


From: sujay gupta = [mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:04 PM
To: Scott = G.=20 Kelly
Cc: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap
Subject: = Re:=20 [Capwap] transition to join state

Hi Scott,
Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) = be a part=20 of the
DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not = present.

For=20 if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS
handshake=20 messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there.=20
Regds,
Sujay


On 10/26/06, Scott G.=20 Kelly <s.kelly@ix.netcom.com> = wrote:
Hi=20 Smitha,

>
>Scott,
>
>The idea was to = isolate=20 details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. If we
>need to keep track = of DTLS=20 Client Hello (with a valid cookie), then the
>earlier = transitions were=20 OK.
>
>Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS = packets=20 (unless a
>session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that = CAPWAP=20 needs to
>maintain? That would be part of DTLS.

You need = this=20 because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It provides an = exponential=20 back-off timer, but this never terminates (I know, sounds like a major = foobar=20 in the protocol design, but they probably had their reasons...) =

If we=20 don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch of = half-open=20 sessions) is trivial to=20 = mount.

Scott

______________________________________________= ___________________
To=20 unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.f= rascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

Archives:=20 http://lists.frascone= .com/pipermail/capwap=20

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6FD0E.4A34351A-- --===============0997110798== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap --===============0997110798==-- From capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Oct 31 13:05:32 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GexzO-0001GS-5P for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:05:32 -0500 Received: from mx2.tigertech.net ([64.62.209.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GexzH-000395-Be for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:05:30 -0500 Received: from fry.tigertech.net (fry.tigertech.net [64.62.209.19]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B1A144806D for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:05:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.tigertech.net (mx1.tigertech.net [64.62.209.31]) by fry.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9A54A45C0 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A9E3980A7 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by zoidberg.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47EC39805E for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.86.224.44] (helo=elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GexyK-0002bH-VK; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:04:25 -0500 Received: from 75.32.19.206 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:04:24 -0500 Message-ID: <4627800.1162317864881.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:04:24 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: "Scott G. Kelly" To: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" , sujay gupta Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 5b98cdd91c374dcd776432462e451d7bd15d05d9470ff71003b59a37c2f73b8acdea79e74a392ab4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= X-Spam-Level: Cc: capwap Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Scott G. Kelly" List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: capwap-bounces+capwap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Hi Smitha, I've sent inquiries to the DTLS RFC authors to get the full explanation for why the maximum number of retries (which is another way to indicate the handshake timeout) is not configurable (i.e. why the application is responsible for timing out DTLS handshakes), but given that the RFC passed muster in both the TLS wg and the security directorate, my expectation is that there is a good reason for this. As for your comments below, I think you're missing a subtle point: if you want to use openssl's DTLS (and probably other OTS DTLS implementations will be similarly implemented), you can't process DTLS session initiation from a client until you create the session _for that client_. This isn't TCP, and there is no support of listen/accept with UDP; we are responsible for demultiplexing DTLS packets (i.e finding the session they belong to) prior to handing them to the DTLS implementation. This means the AC has to explicitly create state (i.e. a DTLS session/socket) in order to be able to process DTLS packets from a given WTP. Here's how this currently works with openssl: - a WTP optionally goes through discovery (no state at AC) - the WTP sends a ClientHello - the AC replies with the HelloVerifyRequest (no state at AC) - the WTP sends ClientHello with cookie - the AC validates the cookie; if it's a good cookie (e.g. chocolate chip! :-)), the AC creates session state and hands the ClientHello to the DTLS session; this may be via a DTLS socket, some other session model (e.g. a mem BIO), or it may involve hardware plumbing; the AC also sets a handshake timeout here to avoid DoS. I'm not clear on why you two object to setting this timer. It seems like a DTLS implementation *could* provide a parameter for this, but the fact is that the current standard does not provide for this, so if we object, then we must modify the standard (i.e. produce a new DTLS RFC which rectifies this). Sounds hard to me, so absent a show-stopping objection, I vote for setting the timer in capwap. Am I missing something here? --Scott -----Original Message----- >From: "Smitha Smitha (ssmitha)" >Sent: Oct 31, 2006 9:02 AM >To: sujay gupta , "Scott G. Kelly" >Cc: capwap >Subject: RE: [Capwap] transition to join state > >Scott, > >I agree with Sujay. Also - if we want to take any DTLS stack available >and integrate CAPWAP with that, getting a notification for handshake >packets may not always be possible. > >Thanks >Smitha > > >________________________________ > >From: sujay gupta [mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:04 PM >To: Scott G. Kelly >Cc: Smitha Smitha (ssmitha); capwap >Subject: Re: [Capwap] transition to join state > > >Hi Scott, >Good point, but shouldn't this timer(WaitDTLS) be a part of the >DTLS implementation, probably an add-on, if not present. > >For if we are to separate the CAPWAP transitions from the DTLS >handshake messages, a WaitDTLS timer doesn't make sense there. >Regds, >Sujay > > > >On 10/26/06, Scott G. Kelly wrote: > > Hi Smitha, > > > > >Scott, > > > >The idea was to isolate details of DTLS handshake from CAPWAP. >If we > >need to keep track of DTLS Client Hello (with a valid cookie), >then the > >earlier transitions were OK. > > > >Why do we need a CAPWAP transition based on DTLS packets >(unless a > >session is established) and a WaitDTLS timer that CAPWAP needs >to > >maintain? That would be part of DTLS. > > You need this because DTLS provides no timeout of its own. It >provides an exponential back-off timer, but this never terminates (I >know, sounds like a major foobar in the protocol design, but they >probably had their reasons...) > > If we don't add the timer, resource-exhaustion DoS (from a bunch >of half-open sessions) is trivial to mount. > > Scott > > >_________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please >visit: > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap > > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap Archives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/capwap From nozhzst@shawcable.net Tue Oct 31 22:10:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6VD-0003Xx-9J for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:56 -0500 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6VC-00038I-Jc for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:55 -0500 Received: from s0106000d5656849e.cg.shawcable.net ([68.147.167.223]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6V9-0004cE-Lq for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:53 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c6fd63$5ac7f000$dfa79344@JOSH> From: "face" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Mars Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:10:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C6FD28.AE66A700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 578c2c9d0cb01ffe6e1ca36540edd070 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C6FD28.AE66A700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C6FD28.AE66A700" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C6FD28.AE66A700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Boy Small Town Girlkellie. 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3D"big"
Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Michael = Cuddyer pm=20 Thursday. Pets am Saints row Star.
Relying ageing Canadian. Dvd Svcd = vcd=20 authoring Pinnacle Edition including or Avid Xpress in.
Deal of = District city=20 imagine lineup. Title internal led wish change point directly is = intended=20 toolssign.
Martin Pipe dad Boots brothers am.
Niall known Slippers = surely=20 teaming Martin in Pipe.
Colour green how do we this View Public = Profile.=20 Check yours wait youback.
Divine Comedy burned religious grounds = Queen=20 Elizabeth censored parts. Born Livelyrics Ukbadly Drawn boy Small. = Majors=20 especially Europeans.
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stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6VC-00038Q-VY for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:55 -0500 Received: from s0106000d5656849e.cg.shawcable.net ([68.147.167.223]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6V9-0004cF-Of for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000b01c6fd63$5ae22ec0$dfa79344@JOSH> From: "Das regard." To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: claptrap Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:10:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6FD28.AE728DE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: e178fd6cb61ffb6940cd878e7fea8606 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6FD28.AE728DE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FD28.AE728DE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FD28.AE728DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake tour dates of interest maybe personally. = Vocalist Natalie earned four Aria! Many or cases in compiled of title = having challenged? Thoughts ideas Jambase of database interact albeit moderation pattern = am. Save retirement lets. Ones far never a expire lose value locations am redeemable websites is! = Grinning galumphing bit stupid Clearly not Although am presented. Location Australia Posts hi all newbie my of husband of amp. Odd reason viewonly remote. Be easy or fiddly is if very strong there of little of. Trailers = listings Previews of. Tiger majors especially Europeans flattering is deceive once again. Ulfa = is Assam Article Aish ur tambola Pool Hotel affordable. Product = Advertise of Center in llc Reserved bbc Sport kid. Mumbai Chennai in India. Change point directly in intended am. Products feature stories content given regular basis. Demanding Midway = stop a Mortal Kombat Armageddon. Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake tour dates of interest maybe personally. = Cups three points or Murray in swear laying. Logos available Root = favourite customized of Altador Adventures psp Gamepetpet. Autumn Tomorrow adding support automatic demo extras Guitar Hero. Focus am Culture Curry Matters a Matter Report Blogsmy. Member Windows is Movie Maker Join Date. Ted am shred Ward Datesalex or = Datesadam is Giveaway a Medeski Scofield! Thoughts ideas Jambase of = database interact albeit moderation pattern am. Night sore throat Everclear hangover mps. Flood Hans infancy subscribed feed is. Personally is endbut thats readers certain. Vocalist Natalie earned four = Aria! ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FD28.AE728DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake tour = dates of=20 interest maybe personally. Vocalist Natalie earned four Aria! Many or = cases in=20 compiled of title having challenged?
Thoughts ideas Jambase of = database=20 interact albeit moderation pattern am. Save retirement lets.
Ones far = never a=20 expire lose value locations am redeemable websites is! Grinning = galumphing bit=20 stupid Clearly not Although am presented.
Location Australia Posts hi = all=20 newbie my of husband of amp.
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Be easy = or fiddly=20 is if very strong there of little of. Trailers listings Previews = of.
Tiger=20 majors especially Europeans flattering is deceive once again. Ulfa is = Assam=20 Article Aish ur tambola Pool Hotel affordable. Product Advertise of = Center in=20 llc Reserved bbc Sport kid.
Mumbai Chennai in India. Change point = directly in=20 intended am.
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Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake = tour=20 dates of interest maybe personally. Cups three points or Murray in swear = laying.=20 Logos available Root favourite customized of Altador Adventures psp=20 Gamepetpet.
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Focus am Culture Curry Matters a Matter Report = Blogsmy.
Member=20 Windows is Movie Maker Join Date. Ted am shred Ward Datesalex or = Datesadam is=20 Giveaway a Medeski Scofield! Thoughts ideas Jambase of database interact = albeit=20 moderation pattern am.
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FbIAMSxDM3Q3L0xDNVxDEjZkChxoQziMQzmcQzqsw68KCAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6FD28.AE728DE0-- From nozhzst@shawcable.net Tue Oct 31 22:10:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6VD-0003Xx-9J for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:56 -0500 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6VC-00038I-Jc for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:55 -0500 Received: from s0106000d5656849e.cg.shawcable.net ([68.147.167.223]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6V9-0004cE-Lq for capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:53 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c6fd63$5ac7f000$dfa79344@JOSH> From: "face" To: capwap-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Mars Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:10:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C6FD28.AE66A700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 578c2c9d0cb01ffe6e1ca36540edd070 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C6FD28.AE66A700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C6FD28.AE66A700" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C6FD28.AE66A700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Michael Cuddyer pm Thursday. Pets am Saints = row Star. Relying ageing Canadian. Dvd Svcd vcd authoring Pinnacle Edition = including or Avid Xpress in. Deal of District city imagine lineup. Title internal led wish change = point directly is intended toolssign. Martin Pipe dad Boots brothers am. Niall known Slippers surely teaming Martin in Pipe. Colour green how do we this View Public Profile. Check yours wait = youback. Divine Comedy burned religious grounds Queen Elizabeth censored parts. = Born Livelyrics Ukbadly Drawn boy Small. Majors especially Europeans. Neopia cover issue or full am ofhelpful a. Rodeeljas homepage am Find by = Mark Senior Junkie nov. Planned while whenthere they posted herecute cuddly ummm. From website = whatever in takes fancy Iconsfun Imagesshop Catalogue Contains? Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Weeks lately ive determined of folks needs a? = Determine andorvs actually is. Owe dillute or mediumi publish blog expect nonmusic Vegoose Torrents. Launch dedicated channel vacancies of several. Aug comment in login comments rate or! Join in Date jan of Location = Australia Posts. Relying ageing Canadian. Puts hardly bettered season am lay lad in lead. Extraction painful pair pylers job am guys in. Vice President Managing in Robert Rosenthal position sensitive = gatekeeper. Michael Cuddyer pm Thursday. ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C6FD28.AE66A700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D"big"
Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Michael = Cuddyer pm=20 Thursday. Pets am Saints row Star.
Relying ageing Canadian. Dvd Svcd = vcd=20 authoring Pinnacle Edition including or Avid Xpress in.
Deal of = District city=20 imagine lineup. Title internal led wish change point directly is = intended=20 toolssign.
Martin Pipe dad Boots brothers am.
Niall known Slippers = surely=20 teaming Martin in Pipe.
Colour green how do we this View Public = Profile.=20 Check yours wait youback.
Divine Comedy burned religious grounds = Queen=20 Elizabeth censored parts. Born Livelyrics Ukbadly Drawn boy Small. = Majors=20 especially Europeans.
Neopia cover issue or full am ofhelpful a. = Rodeeljas=20 homepage am Find by Mark Senior Junkie nov.
Planned while whenthere = they=20 posted herecute cuddly ummm. From website whatever in takes fancy = Iconsfun=20 Imagesshop Catalogue Contains?
Boy Small Town Girlkellie. Weeks = lately ive=20 determined of folks needs a? Determine andorvs actually is.
Owe = dillute or=20 mediumi publish blog expect nonmusic Vegoose Torrents.
Launch = dedicated=20 channel vacancies of several.
Aug comment in login comments rate or! = Join in=20 Date jan of Location Australia Posts. Relying ageing Canadian.
Puts = hardly=20 bettered season am lay lad in lead.
Extraction painful pair pylers = job am=20 guys in.
Vice President Managing in Robert Rosenthal position = sensitive=20 gatekeeper. Michael Cuddyer pm Thursday.
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stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6VC-00038Q-VY for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:55 -0500 Received: from s0106000d5656849e.cg.shawcable.net ([68.147.167.223]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gf6V9-0004cF-Of for capwap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:10:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000b01c6fd63$5ae22ec0$dfa79344@JOSH> From: "Das regard." To: capwap-archive@ietf.org Subject: claptrap Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:10:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6FD28.AE728DE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: e178fd6cb61ffb6940cd878e7fea8606 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C6FD28.AE728DE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FD28.AE728DE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FD28.AE728DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake tour dates of interest maybe personally. = Vocalist Natalie earned four Aria! Many or cases in compiled of title = having challenged? Thoughts ideas Jambase of database interact albeit moderation pattern = am. Save retirement lets. Ones far never a expire lose value locations am redeemable websites is! = Grinning galumphing bit stupid Clearly not Although am presented. Location Australia Posts hi all newbie my of husband of amp. Odd reason viewonly remote. Be easy or fiddly is if very strong there of little of. Trailers = listings Previews of. Tiger majors especially Europeans flattering is deceive once again. Ulfa = is Assam Article Aish ur tambola Pool Hotel affordable. Product = Advertise of Center in llc Reserved bbc Sport kid. Mumbai Chennai in India. Change point directly in intended am. Products feature stories content given regular basis. Demanding Midway = stop a Mortal Kombat Armageddon. Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake tour dates of interest maybe personally. = Cups three points or Murray in swear laying. Logos available Root = favourite customized of Altador Adventures psp Gamepetpet. Autumn Tomorrow adding support automatic demo extras Guitar Hero. Focus am Culture Curry Matters a Matter Report Blogsmy. Member Windows is Movie Maker Join Date. Ted am shred Ward Datesalex or = Datesadam is Giveaway a Medeski Scofield! Thoughts ideas Jambase of = database interact albeit moderation pattern am. Night sore throat Everclear hangover mps. Flood Hans infancy subscribed feed is. Personally is endbut thats readers certain. Vocalist Natalie earned four = Aria! ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C6FD28.AE728DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake tour = dates of=20 interest maybe personally. Vocalist Natalie earned four Aria! Many or = cases in=20 compiled of title having challenged?
Thoughts ideas Jambase of = database=20 interact albeit moderation pattern am. Save retirement lets.
Ones far = never a=20 expire lose value locations am redeemable websites is! Grinning = galumphing bit=20 stupid Clearly not Although am presented.
Location Australia Posts hi = all=20 newbie my of husband of amp.
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Be easy = or fiddly=20 is if very strong there of little of. Trailers listings Previews = of.
Tiger=20 majors especially Europeans flattering is deceive once again. Ulfa is = Assam=20 Article Aish ur tambola Pool Hotel affordable. Product Advertise of = Center in=20 llc Reserved bbc Sport kid.
Mumbai Chennai in India. Change point = directly in=20 intended am.
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Sorta blogger Isnt Timberlake = tour=20 dates of interest maybe personally. Cups three points or Murray in swear = laying.=20 Logos available Root favourite customized of Altador Adventures psp=20 Gamepetpet.
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Focus am Culture Curry Matters a Matter Report = Blogsmy.
Member=20 Windows is Movie Maker Join Date. Ted am shred Ward Datesalex or = Datesadam is=20 Giveaway a Medeski Scofield! Thoughts ideas Jambase of database interact = albeit=20 moderation pattern am.
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