From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 01 05:15:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzWOL-0004bM-VP for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 05:15:26 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA07262 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B66920627; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA66520651; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:15:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1042063F for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB2920648 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j71925Jd023110 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cof110avexu1.global.avaya.com (h135-9-6-16.avaya.com [135.9.6.16]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j7191cJd022531 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:01:51 -0400 (EDT) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59679.5C6D7F3A" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Presentations for IETF63 CAPWAP sessions Thread-Index: AcWWeVvLXYaeZRnMQ6+knXEhbZnhXg== X-Priority: 1 Priority: Urgent Importance: high From: "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] Presentations for IETF63 CAPWAP sessions Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 03:14:03 -0600 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59679.5C6D7F3A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The IETF63 presentations (from Evaluation team and from Saravanan on Objectives for now) are placed in http://ietf.webdav.org/capwap/IETF63/ =20 The other presentations will be made available in this space (and later as well in www.capwap.org) =20 Apologies to those in timezones who may not have enough time to go over these presentations (before tuning in over audio-streaming/jabber for the sessions). =20 Regards, -mani & Dorothy ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59679.5C6D7F3A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The IETF63 presentations (from Evaluation team and = from Saravanan on Objectives for now) are placed = in

http://ietf.webdav.org/cap= wap/IETF63/

 

The other presentations will be made available in = this space (and later as well in www.capwap.org)

 

Apologies to those in timezones who may not have = enough time to go over these presentations (before tuning in over = audio-streaming/jabber for the sessions).

 

Regards,

-mani & Dorothy

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59679.5C6D7F3A-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 02:26:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzqEC-0004kn-Gh for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:26:16 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA22627 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C342064F; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A77420507; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:26:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A76D20507 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2A32035E for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2005 23:25:54 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,161,1120460400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="652353194:sNHT53566592" Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j726Plul003169 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:25:54 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5972B.08ECA445" Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278A68D@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: Comments on today's meeting Thread-Index: AcWW0J/Q5Qmt2XwkRuK9DQjbLy//HQ== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2005 06:25:54.0079 (UTC) FILETIME=[090752F0:01C5972B] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:25:52 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5972B.08ECA445 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, =20 I wanted to provide some of my observations on some comments stated during today's face to face meeting, and specifically how these relate to the LWAPP protocol. =20 1. There is no way that CAPWAP can create a protocol that can satisfy upcoming standards work, and therefore CAPWAP shouldn't bother to create a control protocol. This statement is actually completely untrue. If one looks at the work currently going on in 802.11k, 802,11r, 802.11v and 802.11w, none of these will actually require any changes to the LWAPP protocol. In fact, all of these extensions to the base protocol simply make use of MAC management messages, and with the LWAPP protocol all that is needed is to simply forward these frames to/from the AC and WTP. =20 The authors do agree that the introduction of 802.11e and 802.11i required changes to the WTP/AC interface, but both of these are already handled in the LWAPP protocol. =20 While we cannot state that this will be true of all 802.11 extensions moving forward, one or more of the LWAPP authors are involved in nearly all of the ongoing 802.11 activities and we are not aware of any extension that would require any changes to the CAPWAP protocol. 2. It would be much better to simply design a protocol that allows an AC vendor to download code for WTPs and not standardize the control protocol. We've been down this path before, and frankly I was surprised that the SLAPP authors opted to focus on this aspect of their protocol, but I can re-state my issues with this proposal.=20 =20 =09 The whole goal of standards is to get guaranteed interoperability. I believe that coming up with a proposal that allows a vendor to claim compatibility with a "CAPWAP RFC", which does not interoperate with the customer's existing deployment will create confusion in the market. While I understand the motivations of the SLAPP team, I believe that this strategy is a slippery slope that could give the IETF (and the general WLAN market) a huge black eye. We *must* create a protocol that guarantees interoperability. =20 If the AC vendor ports their code to WTPs without the WTP vendor's knowledge (or consent), as proposed today, then who would the end customer call if there were issues with their gear? The AC or the WTP vendor? What happens to the warranty? Is it invalidated if one loads foreign code to the hardware? The response from the SLAPP team was that the end customer could re-load the standard code prior to calling support, but this seems like a burden that most customers would not even want to deal with. I realize we want to focus on technical, and not business issues, on this list, but the protocol created by the CAPWAP WG must be one that customers would be willing to deploy. =20 There is more than a single 802.11 MAC in the market. The comments made during the SLAPP preso is that APs have become a commodity and that code can easily be ported to. The reality is that there are many 802.11 MACs in the market today, and none of them have an identical interface. The consequence of this proposal would require the AC vendor to port their code to multiple platforms. I can't speak for the rest of the protocol authors, but I for one know that my company would much prefer to reserve its engineering resources to deal with innovation vs. porting to different WTP hardware. =20 Not all reference designs are identical. While there are some ODMs that simply take a reference design, there are some that add value and as a consequence the hardware layout (and components or even antennas) are different. Therefore it is not fair to state that porting code for one 802.11 MAC manufacturer is a one time process. =20 =09 WTP manufacturers frequently make design changes to their hardware, in some cases just for cost savings reasons and in other cases due to parts being obsoleted. These changes generally require software modifications (e.g., new flash), and these types of dynamic environments create an interesting challenge for the AC vendors. This places the burden on the AC vendors to have to track the wide variety of WTPs, and in many cases these issues would be raised by customers attempting to load new firmware, which could lead the WTP to become a brick in the ceiling (unless the AC vendor has a very close relationship with all WTP vendor's manufacturing group). This is a challenge within an organization, let alone across companies. 3. All protocols are the nearly the same, so making changes to a protocol is simple.=20 I respectfully disagree with this statement. I believe that one of the value of the LWAPP specification is that it has been implemented in two separate products (Airespace and Cisco), and that the lessons learned from those implementations were added to the specification. It isn't fair to state that one can "simply add information" to a spec that easily - one needs to ensure that adding this information is consistent with the flow of the document, is sufficiently specified, and more importantly, works.=20 =20 I think that one of the advantages of the LWAPP specification is the fact that it has undergone a significant amount of peer review over the past 18+ months, which is evidenced in the maturity of the current specification. Products implementing the specification have been shipping for over 2 years, and have gained WiFi certification. Such trivialities as system behavior are the types of things that are generally only added once implementations exist, but are important in ensuring that the working group start with a solid reference document. =20 One of my biggest concerns with the SLAPP document is the fact that the control protocol was "invented" between -00 and -01 in a very short amount of time, has had no implementations proving that it is complete and works. In the end it's not only about "rough consensus", but also about "running code".=20 4. Compliance to the "Logical Groups" objective While I recognize that this point was raised at the last minute, and therefore was not included in the evaluation team's review. This recent comments raised by Richard Gee make it clear that not all implementations comply with this objective. Specifically, most implementations do not specify how to map locally bridged traffic on a Local MAC approach to a specific VLAN. WiCop includes the basic capabilities, but does not allow for "Identity Based Networking", which is typical in most products today (meaning a user is mapped to a specific VLAN based on its authorization information, not as a default BSSID policy). LWAPP includes this information and is therefore in complete compliance with the objectives. 5. Separation of Control and Data Path. While I recognize that the objective may be vague in this specific area, the original intent (I thought) was to allow the control and data path to be individually recognized, as well as to allow for both to be sent to separate systems - allowing for a higher level of scalability. The LWAPP protocol defines the mechanisms that allow the control traffic to be sent to one system (CAPWAP Control System), while the data plane would be sent to a forwarding engine (CAPWAP Data Forwarding Engine). Imagine a chassis based system with a control and one or more data blades. So in the end I want to point out once more that the LWAPP specification, while lengthy, is in fact complete. We believe that adopting the LWAPP spec as the starting point would allow the working group to start from a complete (and proven) working base - hopefully minimizing the process of creating a standard. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5972B.08ECA445 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,
 
I = wanted to provide=20 some of my observations on some comments stated during today's = face to=20 face meeting, and specifically how these relate to the LWAPP=20 protocol.
 
1. = There is no way=20 that CAPWAP can create a protocol that can satisfy upcoming standards = work, and=20 therefore CAPWAP shouldn't bother to create a control=20 protocol.
This = statement is=20 actually completely untrue. If one looks at the work currently going = on in=20 802.11k, 802,11r, 802.11v and 802.11w, none of these will actually = require any=20 changes to the LWAPP protocol. In fact, all of these extensions to the = base=20 protocol simply make use of MAC management messages, and with the = LWAPP=20 protocol all that is needed is to simply forward these frames to/from = the AC=20 and WTP.
 
The = authors do=20 agree that the introduction of 802.11e and 802.11i required changes to = the=20 WTP/AC interface, but both of these are already handled in the = LWAPP=20 protocol.
 
While we cannot=20 state that this will be true of all 802.11 extensions moving forward, = one or=20 more of the LWAPP authors are involved in nearly all of the ongoing = 802.11=20 activities and we are not aware of any extension that would require = any=20 changes to the CAPWAP protocol.
2. It = would be much=20 better to simply design a protocol that allows an AC vendor to download = code for=20 WTPs and not standardize the control protocol.
We've been down=20 this path before, and frankly I was surprised that the SLAPP authors = opted to=20 focus on this aspect of their protocol, but I can re-state my issues = with this=20 proposal.
 
The = whole goal of=20 standards is to get guaranteed interoperability. I believe that coming = up with=20 a proposal that allows a vendor to claim compatibility with a "CAPWAP=20 RFC", which does not interoperate with the customer's existing = deployment=20 will create confusion in the market. While I understand the = motivations of the=20 SLAPP team, I believe that this strategy is a slippery slope that = could give=20 the IETF (and the general WLAN market) a huge black eye. We *must* = create a=20 protocol that guarantees interoperability.
 
If the AC vendor ports their code = to WTPs=20 without the WTP vendor's knowledge (or consent), as proposed today, = then who=20 would the end customer call if there were issues with their gear? The = AC or=20 the WTP vendor? What happens to the warranty? Is it invalidated if one = loads=20 foreign code to the hardware? The response from the SLAPP team = was that=20 the end customer could re-load the standard code prior to calling = support, but=20 this seems like a burden that most customers would not even want to = deal with.=20 I realize we want to focus on technical, and not business issues, on = this=20 list, but the protocol created by the CAPWAP WG must be one that = customers=20 would be willing to deploy.
 
There is more than=20 a single 802.11 MAC in the market. The comments made during the SLAPP = preso is=20 that APs have become a commodity and that code can easily be ported = to. The=20 reality is that there are many 802.11 MACs in the market today, and = none of=20 them have an identical interface.  The consequence of this=20 proposal would require the AC vendor to port their code to = multiple=20 platforms. I can't speak for the rest of the protocol authors, but I = for one=20 know that my company would much prefer to reserve its engineering = resources to=20 deal with innovation vs. porting to different WTP=20 hardware.
 
Not = all reference=20 designs are identical. While there are some ODMs that simply take a = reference=20 design, there are some that add value and as a consequence the = hardware layout=20 (and components or even antennas) are different. Therefore it is not = fair to=20 state that porting code for one 802.11 MAC manufacturer is a one time=20 process.
 
WTP = manufacturers=20 frequently make design changes to their hardware, in some cases just = for cost=20 savings reasons and in other cases due to parts being obsoleted. These = changes=20 generally require software modifications (e.g., new flash), and these = types of=20 dynamic environments create an interesting challenge for the AC = vendors. This=20 places the burden on the AC vendors to have to track the wide = variety of=20 WTPs, and in many cases these issues would be raised by customers = attempting=20 to load new firmware, which could lead the WTP to become a brick = in the=20 ceiling (unless the AC vendor has a very close relationship with = all WTP=20 vendor's manufacturing group). This is a challenge within an = organization, let=20 alone across = companies.
3. All = protocols are=20 the nearly the same, so making changes to a protocol is simple.=20
I = respectfully=20 disagree with this statement. I believe that one of the value of = the=20 LWAPP specification is that it has been implemented in two separate = products=20 (Airespace and Cisco), and that the lessons learned from those = implementations=20 were added to the specification. It isn't fair to state that one can = "simply=20 add information" to a spec that easily - one needs to ensure that = adding this=20 information is consistent with the flow of the document, is = sufficiently=20 specified, and more importantly, works.
 
I = think that one=20 of the advantages of the LWAPP specification is the fact that it has = undergone=20 a significant amount of peer review over the past 18+ months, which is = evidenced in the maturity of the current specification. Products = implementing=20 the specification have been shipping for over 2 years, and have gained = WiFi=20 certification. Such trivialities as system behavior are the types of = things=20 that are generally only added once implementations exist, but are = important in=20 ensuring that the working group start with a solid reference=20 document.
 
One = of my biggest=20 concerns with the SLAPP document is the fact that the control protocol = was=20 "invented" between -00 and -01 in a very short amount of time, has had = no=20 implementations proving that it is complete and works. In the end = it's=20 not only about "rough consensus", but also about "running=20 code". 
4. = Compliance to the=20 "Logical Groups" objective
While I recognize=20 that this point was raised at the last minute, and therefore was not = included=20 in the evaluation team's review. This recent comments raised by = Richard Gee=20 make it clear that not all implementations comply with this objective. = Specifically, most implementations do not specify how to map locally = bridged=20 traffic on a Local MAC approach to a specific VLAN. WiCop includes the = basic=20 capabilities, but does not allow for "Identity Based Networking", = which is=20 typical in most products today (meaning a user is mapped to a specific = VLAN=20 based on its authorization information, not as a default BSSID = policy). LWAPP=20 includes this information and is therefore in complete compliance with = the=20 objectives.
5. = Separation of=20 Control and Data Path.
While I recognize=20 that the objective may be vague in this specific area, the original = intent (I=20 thought) was to allow the control and data path to be individually = recognized,=20 as well as to allow for both to be sent to separate systems - allowing = for a=20 higher level of scalability. The LWAPP protocol defines the mechanisms = that=20 allow the control traffic to be sent to one system (CAPWAP Control = System),=20 while the data plane would be sent to a forwarding engine (CAPWAP Data = Forwarding Engine). Imagine a chassis based system with a control and = one or=20 more data blades.
So in = the end I want=20 to point out once more that the LWAPP specification, while lengthy, is = in fact=20 complete. We believe that adopting the LWAPP spec as the starting point = would=20 allow the working group to start from a complete (and proven) working = base -=20 hopefully minimizing the process of creating a = standard.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5972B.08ECA445-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 08:34:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzvyE-00082F-3o for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:34:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA15597 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83ABC2066A; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5352053A; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:34:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE8E2053A for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from staff-mail.rp.edu.sg (smtp.rp.edu.sg [202.21.158.80]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6B520507 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:33:03 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and Interoperability for CAPWAP protocol Message-ID: <9C374CF75527504394E573E1937136C4C943C8@staff-mail.rp.edu.sg> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and Interoperability for CAPWAP protocol Thread-Index: AcWTgmGQ8/RHoKmfRfuU/e3tKq3CGgAJJorAADBWr6AAvTOovQ== From: "Richard Gwee" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , , Cc: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:32:59 +0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 I am very sorry for the late reply. I must thank Dorothy for giving me = the offer to expand on the objectives. However, i feel that changing the = objective now is not appropriate as the CAPWAP protocol is being = finalised soon. I certainly do not wish to cause any delay or trouble on = the finalisation of the CAPWAP protocol. It has not been my initial = intention to ask for a change in the logical group objective statement. = Rather, i am more keen on how the proposed protocols can satisfy the = issues that i have raised in regards to this objective. =20 Thanks and regards Richard Gwee ________________________________ From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Sat 7/30/2005 2:12 AM To: Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com; Richard Gwee; capwap@frascone.com Cc: mmani@avaya.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and Interoperability for = CAPWAP protocol I believe that Richard made a really good point that the Logical groups objective is not sufficient. The current Protocol Requirements text reads: "The CAPWAP protocol MUST be capable of controlling and managingphysical WTPs in terms of logical groups including BSSID-based groups." I would re-phrase to: "The CAPWAP protocol MUST be capable of controlling and managing physical WTPs in terms of logical groups including BSSID-based groups. For non-tunneled mode, the protocols MUST also provide the provisions to configure the associated VLAN (or subnet) which is to be used by the WTP in bridging traffic for the logical group." Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of > Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 12:14 PM > To: richard_gwee@rp.sg; capwap@frascone.com > Cc: mmani@avaya.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and > Interoperability for CAPWAP protocol > > Hi Richard- > > Thanks for the comments on the protocols and requirements.=20 > We just finished an WG Last Call on the Objectives draft, and > although some of your comments are addressed there at a high > level, I thought I'd give you an opportunity to expand on the > objectives if you like, espcially since we've haven't > received any comments during WGLC so far, and I can't submit > the Objectives draft to the IESG until after the IETF 63 meeting. > > Additionally, the evaluation team will report on their > findings and release their draft at the IETF meeting. You > can also raise these points with the evaluation team, during > the meeting if you are attending, or on the WG list when the > WG has a chance to comment. They have done an excellent job so far. > > As we finalize the evaluation process and protocol, the WG > will have an opportunity to further refine the protocol to > address comments such as yours. > > Thanks, > Dorothy >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com]On > Behalf Of ext Richard Gwee > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:00 AM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and > Interoperability for CAPWAP protocol > > > Hi, >=20 > I have a few questions to make. >=20 > For the 802.11i considerations objective, we have to take > into account an architecture in which the AC provides > authentication function while the WTP provides the encryption > function. I believe such architecture is highly likely and > need to be considered seriously. However, in some of the > proposed protocols, i notice that such designs are not > discussed thoroughly. Most protocols discuss on how the AC > and WTP can perform security updates. In my opinion, the way > on how the CAPWAP protocol can best perform under this kind > of architecture is rather important. Is this aspect supposed > to be implementation specific or can i be enlightened on how > the CAPWAP protocol can be used effectively on such an architecture? >=20 > For the interoperability objective, most protocols does > mention support for this objective in their specifications > but i cannot figure out how is this objective fulfilled. In > the event that there is two types of WTP i.e. local MAC and > split MAC WTPs linked to a single AC, how will the AC manage > the traffic from these two types of WTPs? Ideally, the AC > should be able to handle traffic from both types of WTPs > without much hassle. >=20 > Appreciate any reply and comments. >=20 > Thanks and regards > Richard Gwee >=20 >=20 > > > Republic Polytechnic, Tanglin Campus, 1 Kay Siang Road, > Singapore 248922 . Website: www.rp.sg . Fax: +65 6415-1310 . > > Republic Polytechnic, the first Institute of Higher Learning > to fully adopt the Problem-Based Learning approach in > Singapore, continues to strive towards best practices and > maintain excellence in service standards with the following > certifications: Singapore Quality Class (SQC) certification, > People Developer Standards and QEHS standards (ISO 9001, > 14001 and OHSAS 18001 certifications). > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > CONFIDENTIALITY CAUTION: This message is intended only for > the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed > and contains information that is privileged and confidential. > If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended > recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy > this communication. If you have received this communication > in error, please notify us immediately by return email and > delete the original message. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 10:18:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dzxat-0005Ci-OD for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:18:12 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22439 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:18:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4632069E; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570302053A; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:18:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592002053A for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEAF520507 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2005 07:17:32 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,161,1120460400"; d="scan'208"; a="652427424:sNHT75256484" Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j72EHVJL022674; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:17:31 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and Interoperability for CAPWAP protocol Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278A6D5@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and Interoperability for CAPWAP protocol Thread-Index: AcWTgmGQ8/RHoKmfRfuU/e3tKq3CGgAJJorAADBWr6AAvTOovQAD5Oyw From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Richard Gwee" , , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2005 14:17:31.0445 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB92B650:01C5976C] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:17:29 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I agree that adding delay is not ideal, I do believe that the point raised by Richard really does need to be added to the logical group objectives as it is a crucial part of the overall solution. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Richard Gwee > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:33 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com;=20 > capwap@frascone.com > Cc: mmani@avaya.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and=20 > Interoperability for CAPWAP protocol >=20 > Hi, > =20 > I am very sorry for the late reply. I must thank Dorothy for=20 > giving me the offer to expand on the objectives. However, i=20 > feel that changing the objective now is not appropriate as=20 > the CAPWAP protocol is being finalised soon. I certainly do=20 > not wish to cause any delay or trouble on the finalisation of=20 > the CAPWAP protocol. It has not been my initial intention to=20 > ask for a change in the logical group objective statement.=20 > Rather, i am more keen on how the proposed protocols can=20 > satisfy the issues that i have raised in regards to this objective. > =20 > Thanks and regards > Richard Gwee >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] > Sent: Sat 7/30/2005 2:12 AM > To: Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com; Richard Gwee; capwap@frascone.com > Cc: mmani@avaya.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and=20 > Interoperability for CAPWAP protocol >=20 >=20 >=20 > I believe that Richard made a really good point that the=20 > Logical groups objective is not sufficient. >=20 > The current Protocol Requirements text reads: >=20 > "The CAPWAP protocol MUST be capable of controlling and=20 > managingphysical WTPs in terms of logical groups including=20 > BSSID-based groups." >=20 > I would re-phrase to: >=20 > "The CAPWAP protocol MUST be capable of controlling and=20 > managing physical WTPs in terms of logical groups including=20 > BSSID-based groups. > For non-tunneled mode, the protocols MUST also provide the=20 > provisions to configure the associated VLAN (or subnet) which=20 > is to be used by the WTP in bridging traffic for the logical group." >=20 > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 > > Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com > > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 12:14 PM > > To: richard_gwee@rp.sg; capwap@frascone.com > > Cc: mmani@avaya.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and Interoperability=20 > > for CAPWAP protocol > > > > Hi Richard- > > > > Thanks for the comments on the protocols and requirements.=20 > > We just finished an WG Last Call on the Objectives draft,=20 > and although=20 > > some of your comments are addressed there at a high level,=20 > I thought=20 > > I'd give you an opportunity to expand on the objectives if=20 > you like,=20 > > espcially since we've haven't received any comments during WGLC so=20 > > far, and I can't submit the Objectives draft to the IESG=20 > until after=20 > > the IETF 63 meeting. > > > > Additionally, the evaluation team will report on their findings and=20 > > release their draft at the IETF meeting. You can also raise these=20 > > points with the evaluation team, during the meeting if you are=20 > > attending, or on the WG list when the WG has a chance to comment. =20 > > They have done an excellent job so far. > > > > As we finalize the evaluation process and protocol, the WG=20 > will have=20 > > an opportunity to further refine the protocol to address=20 > comments such=20 > > as yours. > > > > Thanks, > > Dorothy > >=20 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com]On > > Behalf Of ext Richard Gwee > > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:00 AM > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: [Capwap] Questions on the 802.11i and Interoperability for=20 > > CAPWAP protocol > > > > > > Hi, > >=20 > > I have a few questions to make. > >=20 > > For the 802.11i considerations objective, we have to take=20 > into account=20 > > an architecture in which the AC provides authentication=20 > function while=20 > > the WTP provides the encryption function. I believe such=20 > architecture=20 > > is highly likely and need to be considered seriously.=20 > However, in some=20 > > of the proposed protocols, i notice that such designs are not=20 > > discussed thoroughly. Most protocols discuss on how the AC=20 > and WTP can=20 > > perform security updates. In my opinion, the way on how the CAPWAP=20 > > protocol can best perform under this kind of architecture is rather=20 > > important. Is this aspect supposed to be implementation specific or=20 > > can i be enlightened on how the CAPWAP protocol can be used=20 > > effectively on such an architecture? > >=20 > > For the interoperability objective, most protocols does mention=20 > > support for this objective in their specifications but i=20 > cannot figure=20 > > out how is this objective fulfilled. In the event that there is two=20 > > types of WTP i.e. local MAC and split MAC WTPs linked to a=20 > single AC,=20 > > how will the AC manage the traffic from these two types of WTPs?=20 > > Ideally, the AC should be able to handle traffic from both types of=20 > > WTPs without much hassle. > >=20 > > Appreciate any reply and comments. > >=20 > > Thanks and regards > > Richard Gwee > >=20 > >=20 > > > > > > Republic Polytechnic, Tanglin Campus, 1 Kay Siang Road, Singapore=20 > > 248922 . Website: www.rp.sg . Fax: +65 6415-1310 . > > > > Republic Polytechnic, the first Institute of Higher=20 > Learning to fully=20 > > adopt the Problem-Based Learning approach in Singapore,=20 > continues to=20 > > strive towards best practices and maintain excellence in service=20 > > standards with the following > > certifications: Singapore Quality Class (SQC) certification, People=20 > > Developer Standards and QEHS standards (ISO 9001, > > 14001 and OHSAS 18001 certifications). > >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > CONFIDENTIALITY CAUTION: This message is intended only for=20 > the use of=20 > > the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains=20 > > information that is privileged and confidential. > > If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient,=20 > > you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this=20 > communication. If=20 > > you have received this communication in error, please notify us=20 > > immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank=20 > > you. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 10:47:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dzy2w-0000Hm-KI for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:47:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25345 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7A5206A5; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684A020651; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:47:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8275120651 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs1.cs.huji.ac.il (cs1.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.10]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507EE2064F for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sands.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.200.9]) by cs1.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1Dzy2T-0009gh-0U for capwap@frascone.com; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:46:41 +0300 Received: from anker by sands.cs.huji.ac.il with local (Exim 4.44) id 1Dzy2T-0000Rs-0H for capwap@frascone.com; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:46:41 +0300 From: Tal Anker To: capwap@frascone.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:46:40 +0300 (IDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). Hi, while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec. The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. The benefit from doing this is having the original info carried in the .11 frame available to the AC. However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their original format would make this objective harder to achieve... When a new wireless media type would be introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to process the data frames (not only the control frames that can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then an NP SW upgrade). What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the SW of the AC. As for loosing the specific media information that was in the 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future wireless technologies" objective... - Tal ===================================================================== Tal Anker, PhD. DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel. _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 11:11:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzyQA-0007kb-3z for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:11:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27009 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDA920699; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55952053A; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:11:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318562053A for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mei.co.jp (smtp2.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.27]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1119E20507 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp2.mei.co.jp (8.12.10/3.7W/kings) with ESMTP id j72FAPC3018573 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:10:25 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id j72FAOs09943 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:10:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/indians) with ESMTP id j72FAOm17325 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:10:24 +0900 (JST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD4B209F@pslexc01.psl.local> Thread-topic: WiCoP Logical Groups Thread-index: AcWXdEn9P6aLH2kLR+WEulJaogYm8w== From: "Saravanan Govindan" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] WiCoP Logical Groups Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:10:16 +0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Puneet Agarwal brought up a point about WiCoP and its handling of MAC-based VLANs in yesterday's meeting.=20 WiCoP can manage logical groups in different forms. The current draft describes BSSIDs and related VLANs only as a specific case. The protocol was designed to address all types of logical grouping across switching and wireless medium segments in general. Section 6.4.1 of the draft covers this.=20 The Conf-WTP-Data message element together with the BSSID-TunnelID information item is also used to map MAC-based VLANs over the switching segment with corresponding logical groups over the wireless segment. This is included in the description for BSSID-TunnelID on pg 17 in the section on Conf-WTP-Data. Also, the Terminal-Data message element allows WiCoP to assign terminals to particular logical groups (VLANs) over the switching segment.=20 I think our semantic choice of 'BSSID-TunnelID' for this logical group linking feature was restrictive. Its efficacy goes beyond just BSSIDs and corresponding VLANs. It should be named 'GroupMap-ID'.=20 I hope this helps address Puneet's question.=20 Cheers, Saravanan _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 11:20:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzyYt-0005PI-EG for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:20:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28042 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F2520507; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C24B2053A; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:20:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5552053A for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mei.co.jp (smtp2.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.27]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9892020507 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp2.mei.co.jp (8.12.10/3.7W/kings) with ESMTP id j72FJ1C3021351; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:19:01 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx2) with ESMTP id j72FJ0j00900; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:19:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/dodgers) with ESMTP id j72FJ0o04535; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:19:00 +0900 (JST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD4B20A0@pslexc01.psl.local> Thread-topic: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Thread-index: AcWW0J/Q5Qmt2XwkRuK9DQjbLy//HQAowxaw From: "Saravanan Govindan" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:18:25 +0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat, The WiCoP authors appreciate your thoughts on WiCoP but they are incorrect. As I mentioned earlier regarding Puneet's question, WiCoP "does" allow for different forms of logical groups. This is included in the descriptions of Conf-WTP-Data and its operations in Sections 5.2.2 and 6.4.1. The WiCoP tunnels mentioned in the description covers various types of logical groups over the switching segment.=20 For the case of "Identity Based Networking", WiCoP simply needs to assign a terminal to an identity-based logical group (VLAN) over the switching segment using the Terminal-Data message element. The BSSID-TunnelID (now renamed to 'GroupMap-ID') provides the mapping between logical groups over the wireless medium segment (any type of virtual AP) and over the switching segment (any type of tunnel).=20 Also, we need to remember that the Logical Groups Objective requires that a CAPWAP protocol be able to manage in terms of consistent logical groups - covering both the switching and wireless medium segments. So I think WiCoP does this best given the GroupMap-ID functionality.=20 Saravanan =20 =20 =20 4. Compliance to the "Logical Groups" objective While I recognize that this point was raised at the last minute, and therefore was not included in the evaluation team's review. This recent comments raised by Richard Gee make it clear that not all implementations comply with this objective. Specifically, most implementations do not specify how to map locally bridged traffic on a Local MAC approach to a specific VLAN. WiCop includes the basic capabilities, but does not allow for "Identity Based Networking", which is typical in most products today (meaning a user is mapped to a specific VLAN based on its authorization information, not as a default BSSID policy). LWAPP includes this information and is therefore in complete compliance with the objectives. _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 17:17:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E048M-0007j8-D0 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:17:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17795 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F76E205FE; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0909D20434; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C607920434 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EAB20425 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2005 14:16:26 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j72LGPJL007436; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:16:25 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278A8E0@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Thread-Index: AcWW0J/Q5Qmt2XwkRuK9DQjbLy//HQAowxawAAV+lXA= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Saravanan Govindan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2005 21:16:25.0662 (UTC) FILETIME=[70BBDDE0:01C597A7] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:16:25 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saravanan, I was basing my information on the response during the WiCOP presentation, so I apologize if I was incorrect. However, I read the sections you list below and I still don't see how WiCOP provides this function. From my understanding, there is a Configuration Data message that is sent from the AC to the WTP. This message may include the BSSID-TunnelID information in the Config-WTP-Data message element, which includes a tunnelID that I believe the AC uses for bridging purposes. However, I believe that this information is sent to the WTP during the creation of the SSID (I am making this assumption since it includes such information such as beacon times).=20 However, the WiCOP protocol also includes the Terminal Addition message, which only incudes the Terminal Data message element. My understanding is that the message is exchanged between the AC and WTP (direction depends upon whether split or local MAC is used) when a station is being granted access to the WTP. This message element does not include any VLAN or TunnelID information. So perhaps the way the protocol would work is that the AC would send a new Conf-WTP-Data immediately followed by a Terminal-Addition message, but if so I wonder what happens to all of the other terminals associated with the BSSID that were assigned to a different TunnelID. I would expect a new BSSID-TunnelID would cause all users on the BSSID to change, no? One more thing that I am not seeing is how the AC sends specific VLAN information to the WTP when a terminal is granted access without any user data tunneling. I would have expected some form of a VLAN ID in the Terminal-Data Response, but the current spec only seems to include a Result field. I'm probably just missing something, so your help is appreciated. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:18 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting >=20 > Pat, >=20 > The WiCoP authors appreciate your thoughts on WiCoP but they=20 > are incorrect. As I mentioned earlier regarding Puneet's=20 > question, WiCoP "does" allow for different forms of logical=20 > groups. This is included in the descriptions of Conf-WTP-Data=20 > and its operations in Sections 5.2.2 and 6.4.1. The WiCoP=20 > tunnels mentioned in the description covers various types of=20 > logical groups over the switching segment.=20 >=20 > For the case of "Identity Based Networking", WiCoP simply=20 > needs to assign a terminal to an identity-based logical group=20 > (VLAN) over the switching segment using the Terminal-Data=20 > message element. The BSSID-TunnelID (now renamed to=20 > 'GroupMap-ID') provides the mapping between logical groups=20 > over the wireless medium segment (any type of virtual AP) and=20 > over the switching segment (any type of tunnel).=20 >=20 > Also, we need to remember that the Logical Groups Objective=20 > requires that a CAPWAP protocol be able to manage in terms of=20 > consistent logical groups - covering both the switching and=20 > wireless medium segments. So I think WiCoP does this best=20 > given the GroupMap-ID functionality.=20 >=20 > Saravanan >=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > 4. Compliance to the "Logical Groups" objective >=20 > While I recognize that this point was raised at=20 > the last minute, and therefore was not included in the=20 > evaluation team's review. > This recent comments raised by Richard Gee make it clear that=20 > not all implementations comply with this objective.=20 > Specifically, most implementations do not specify how to map=20 > locally bridged traffic on a Local MAC approach to a specific=20 > VLAN. WiCop includes the basic capabilities, but does not=20 > allow for "Identity Based Networking", which is typical in=20 > most products today (meaning a user is mapped to a specific=20 > VLAN based on its authorization information, not as a default=20 > BSSID policy). LWAPP includes this information and is=20 > therefore in complete compliance with the objectives. >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 17:17:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E048d-000824-OU for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:17:27 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17810 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE3E206B2; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F169C20434; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4609C20434 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C35F20425 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2005 14:16:24 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j72LGMIs019893; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:16:24 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278A8DF@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWXcUENQi0NB/SxQti6wYKGiXI9RQAFxzaQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Tal Anker" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2005 21:16:24.0568 (UTC) FILETIME=[7014EF80:01C597A7] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:16:24 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tal, Thanks for the e-mail. I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the AC will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the control path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then it is limiting its market. I would argue that include "technology specific" information piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because we cannot predict what this information would end up being. For instance, 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different (and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features will require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide differentiated services based on the information present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed header. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies >=20 > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails...=20 > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). >=20 > Hi, > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of=20 > CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be=20 > fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec. > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would=20 > be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing.=20 > The benefit from doing this is having the original info=20 > carried in the .11 frame available to the AC. > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11=20 > frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW=20 > component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives=20 > was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various=20 > wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be=20 > applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the=20 > beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the=20 > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their=20 > original format would make this objective harder to=20 > achieve... When a new wireless media type would be=20 > introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to=20 > process the data frames (not only the control frames that can=20 > obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then=20 > an NP SW upgrade). > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending=20 > the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP=20 > is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame=20 > in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3=20 > ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is=20 > inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the=20 > SW of the AC. >=20 > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the=20 > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be=20 > sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... >=20 > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the=20 > original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert=20 > to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the=20 > "future wireless technologies" objective... >=20 > - Tal >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Tal Anker, PhD. > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew=20 > University of Jerusalem, Israel. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 18:07:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E04uj-0006wz-WA for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:07:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20126 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3E8206A3; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF23D205FA; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:07:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7FD7205FA for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maili.marvell.com (host2.marvell.com [65.219.4.2]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAA6205F7 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rdlnexch01.marvell.com (rdlnexch01.marvell.com [10.6.1.9]) by maili.marvell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76EB72793; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C597AE.6406AAA9" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWXcUENQi0NB/SxQti6wYKGiXI9RQAFxzaQAAkGDBw= From: "Tal Anker" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Tal Anker" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:06:10 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597AE.6406AAA9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pat. Upgrading the data path is possible if you have, for example, a network = processor performing the data path task. If your AC is based on regular = ethernet switch built with ASICs for the data path packet processing = (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the control plane but not = the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the ACs will be based on HW = that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 packet formats seems to me = like assuming to have some NP-like capabilities in the AC....). =20 As for the piggybacking of the "technology specific" data... My = intention was to extract this info and send some summary periodically to = the AC using the LWAPP control messages and NOT to piggyback the data = packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise you would be correct of = course that this would not give much benefit. However doing this in the = control path and not the data path allows you to define new LWAPP = protocol messages/fields for summarizing "technology specific" data as = new technologies are introduced... =20 As for differentiated services - the QoS portfolio that the AC can = provide, is usualy at least as good as what 802.11 can provide... for = instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the WTP to the AC you = can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if the traffic = is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also if the packet is = suppose to traverse another switch on the way to its destination then = anyway it will get the QoS that the switch can assign it to the next = link towards the destination... Thus I dont see a real benefit in = keeping the wireless media original framing...=20 =20 IMHO extending the LWAPP protocol to support the OPTION for using the AC = specific link layer format (in most cases it would be 802.3) would be = beneficial in the future and would give LWAPP the flexability that it = needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to future wireless = technologies"... =20 =20 - Tal =20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 PM To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies Tal, Thanks for the e-mail. I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the AC will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the control path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then it is limiting its market. I would argue that include "technology specific" information piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because we cannot predict what this information would end up being. For instance, 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different (and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features will require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide differentiated services based on the information present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed header. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > Hi, > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be > fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec. > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would > be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > carried in the .11 frame available to the AC. > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW > component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives > was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various > wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be > applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the > beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > original format would make this objective harder to > achieve... When a new wireless media type would be > introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to > process the data frames (not only the control frames that can > obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then > an NP SW upgrade). > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending > the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP > is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame > in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3 > ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is > inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the > SW of the AC. > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be > sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the > original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert > to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the > "future wireless technologies" objective... > > - Tal > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Tal Anker, PhD. > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > University of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597AE.6406AAA9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies=0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=
Hi = Pat.
=0A=
Upgrading the data path is = possible if you =0A= have, for example, a network processor performing the data path task. If = your AC =0A= is based on regular ethernet switch built with ASICs for the data path = packet =0A= processing (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the control = plane but =0A= not the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the ACs will be based on = HW that =0A= allows to easily upgrade to various L2 packet formats seems to me like = assuming =0A= to have some NP-like capabilities in the AC....).
=0A=
 
=0A=
As for the piggybacking of = the "technology =0A= specific" data... My intention was to extract this info and send some = summary =0A= periodically to the AC using the LWAPP control messages and NOT to = piggyback the =0A= data packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise you would be = correct of =0A= course that this would not give much benefit. However doing this in the = control =0A= path and not the data path allows you to define new LWAPP protocol =0A= messages/fields for summarizing "technology specific" data as new = technologies =0A= are introduced...
=0A=
 
=0A=
As for differentiated = services - the QoS =0A= portfolio that the AC can provide, is usualy at least as good as what = 802.11 can =0A= provide... for instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the WTP = to the AC =0A= you can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if the = traffic is IP =0A= traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also if the packet is = suppose to =0A= traverse another switch on the way to its destination then anyway it = will get =0A= the QoS that the switch can assign it to the next link towards the =0A= destination... Thus I dont see a real benefit in keeping the wireless = media =0A= original framing...
=0A=
 
=0A=
IMHO extending the LWAPP = protocol to =0A= support the OPTION for using the AC specific link layer format (in most = cases it =0A= would be 802.3) would be beneficial in the future and would give LWAPP = the =0A= flexability that it needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to = future =0A= wireless technologies"...
=0A=
 
=0A=
 
=0A=
- Tal
=0A=
 
=0A=

 
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com on =0A= behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 =0A= PM
To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap] =0A= comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies

=0A=
=0A=

Tal,

Thanks for the e-mail.

I believe = that I =0A= understand your point, but I would argue that the AC
will have to be = modified =0A= to support a new technology, and that upgrading
the code in the data = path is =0A= really no more difficult than the control
path. If an implementation = exists =0A= that does not allow for upgrade, then
it is limiting its = market.

I =0A= would argue that include "technology specific" information = piggy
backed =0A= within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because = we
cannot =0A= predict what this information would end up being. For = instance,
802.11 has =0A= the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different
(and has =0A= additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field
into a = field =0A= that may not match with 802.16s?

If one were to need to extend = the piggy =0A= backed header, then this would
require changes to the data path = anyhow. =0A= Further, certain features will
require changes to the data path, for = instance =0A= the introduction of
802.11i centralized encryption requires that the = data =0A= path perform
AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of = service =0A= queuing and
policing.

So while I understand the point raised, = I firmly =0A= believe that
transporting the native frame provides the AC with all = of =0A= the
information for the specific technology, and allows it to =0A= provide
differentiated services based on the information present - = vs. =0A= limiting
it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed =0A= header.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business = Unit
Cisco =0A= Systems



> -----Original Message-----
> From: =0A= capwap-admin@frascone.com
> [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.co= m] On =0A= Behalf Of Tal Anker
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 = AM
> To: =0A= capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and = other =0A= wireless technologies
>
> Resending this (it seems the first = attempt =0A= fails...
> appologies if you receive duplicate = copies...).
>
> =0A= Hi,
> while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives = of
> =0A= CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be
> = fully =0A= achieved with the current LWAPP spec.
> The LWAPP specification = requires =0A= that the 802.11 frames would
> be encapsulated by the WTP and sent = to the =0A= AC for processing.
> The benefit from doing this is having the = original =0A= info
> carried in the .11 frame available to the AC.
> = However, this =0A= requires the AC to process the native 802.11
> frames; an = operation that =0A= will probably be done in some HW
> component. My concern is that = one of =0A= the CAPWAP objectives
> was to be applicable not only to 802.11 = but for =0A= various
> wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also =0A= be
> applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in = the
> =0A= beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the
> = wireless media =0A= frames would be sent to the AC in their
> original format would = make this =0A= objective harder to
> achieve... When a new wireless media type = would =0A= be
> introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted = to
> =0A= process the data frames (not only the control frames that can
> = obviously =0A= be processed in the AC cpu...).
> This means either a HW change = (or if the =0A= AC is using NP then
> an NP SW upgrade).
> What seems = reasonable to =0A= do is to add the OPTION for sending
> the data frames to the AC = using the =0A= media type tha tthe WTP
> is connected to the AC with. Meaning - = to =0A= convert the frame
> in the WTP and to send it to the AC for = instance using =0A= 802.3
> ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology =0A= is
> inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating = the
> =0A= SW of the AC.
>
> As for loosing the specific media = information that =0A= was in the
> 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP = and =0A= be
> sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol = messages...
>
> =0A= Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the
> = original =0A= 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert
> to the AC = media type =0A= will allow LWAPP to comply to the
> "future wireless technologies" =0A= objective...
>
> - Tal
>
> =0A= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =0A= Tal Anker, PhD.
> DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and = Secure =0A= Systems Group.
> The School of Engineering and Computer Science, = The =0A= hebrew
> University of Jerusalem, = Israel.
>
>
>
> =0A= _______________________________________________
> Capwap mailing =0A= list
> Capwap@frascone.com
> http://mail.fra= scone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
________________________= _______________________
Capwap =0A= mailing list
Capwap@frascone.com
http://mail.fra= scone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

=0A= =0A= =0A= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597AE.6406AAA9-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 02 18:19:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E056M-0007cL-Ca for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:19:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21293 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BE520699; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3579D205F7; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:19:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2FA205F7 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maili.marvell.com (host2.marvell.com [65.219.4.2]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E105205EE for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rdlnexch01.marvell.com (rdlnexch01.marvell.com [10.6.1.9]) by maili.marvell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60F026E6; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Thread-Index: AcWXcUENQi0NB/SxQti6wYKGiXI9RQAFxzaQAAknynA= From: "Yuval Cohen" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" Cc: "Tal Anker" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com 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X19fX19fX19fDQo+IENhcHdhcCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gQ2Fwd2FwQGZyYXNjb25lLmNvbQ0K PiBodHRwOi8vbWFpbC5mcmFzY29uZS5jb20vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9jYXB3YXANCj4gDQpf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KQ2Fwd2FwIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KQ2Fwd2FwQGZyYXNjb25lLmNvbQ0KaHR0cDovL21haWwuZnJhc2NvbmUuY29t L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vY2Fwd2FwDQo= _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 01:42:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0C1I-0007xF-Ih for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:42:29 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA09635 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE421FDE9; 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([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:41:02 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C597ED.EEEF51AA" Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA10@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWXcUENQi0NB/SxQti6wYKGiXI9RQAFxzaQAAkGDBwAEElkkA== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Tal Anker" , "Tal Anker" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 05:41:02.0373 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF0F5550:01C597ED] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:40:59 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597ED.EEEF51AA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, obviously the WG needs to decide, but frankly I see this as being no different than say IPv6 or even 802.1q (for those IEEE heads). Changes in protocols require hardware/firmware changes. I believe that sending "periodic" information about data frames is not useful and that in order for the AC to act as an AP, it needs the data on each and every frame. Such things as signal strength, for instance, allows the AC to make predictive mobility decisions and cannot be represented in 802.3 frames. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Tal Anker [mailto:TalA@marvell.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:06 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies =09 =09 Hi Pat. Upgrading the data path is possible if you have, for example, a network processor performing the data path task. If your AC is based on regular ethernet switch built with ASICs for the data path packet processing (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the control plane but not the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the ACs will be based on HW that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 packet formats seems to me like assuming to have some NP-like capabilities in the AC....). =20 As for the piggybacking of the "technology specific" data... My intention was to extract this info and send some summary periodically to the AC using the LWAPP control messages and NOT to piggyback the data packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise you would be correct of course that this would not give much benefit. However doing this in the control path and not the data path allows you to define new LWAPP protocol messages/fields for summarizing "technology specific" data as new technologies are introduced... =20 As for differentiated services - the QoS portfolio that the AC can provide, is usualy at least as good as what 802.11 can provide... for instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the WTP to the AC you can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if the traffic is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also if the packet is suppose to traverse another switch on the way to its destination then anyway it will get the QoS that the switch can assign it to the next link towards the destination... Thus I dont see a real benefit in keeping the wireless media original framing...=20 =20 IMHO extending the LWAPP protocol to support the OPTION for using the AC specific link layer format (in most cases it would be 802.3) would be beneficial in the future and would give LWAPP the flexability that it needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to future wireless technologies"... =20 =20 - Tal =20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 PM To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies =09 =09 Tal, =09 Thanks for the e-mail. =09 I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the AC will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the control path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then it is limiting its market. =09 I would argue that include "technology specific" information piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because we cannot predict what this information would end up being. For instance, 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different (and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? =09 If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features will require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. =09 So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide differentiated services based on the information present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed header. =09 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =09 =09 =09 > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > Hi, > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be > fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec. > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would > be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > carried in the .11 frame available to the AC. > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW > component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives > was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various > wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be > applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the > beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > original format would make this objective harder to > achieve... When a new wireless media type would be > introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to > process the data frames (not only the control frames that can > obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then > an NP SW upgrade). > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending > the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP > is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame > in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3 > ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is > inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the > SW of the AC. > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be > sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the > original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert > to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the > "future wireless technologies" objective... > > - Tal > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Tal Anker, PhD. > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > University of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597ED.EEEF51AA Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies
Well, obviously the WG needs to decide, but = frankly I see=20 this as being no different than say IPv6 or even 802.1q (for those IEEE = heads).=20 Changes in protocols require hardware/firmware changes. I believe that = sending=20 "periodic" information about data frames is not useful and that in order = for the=20 AC to act as an AP, it needs the data on each and every frame. Such = things as=20 signal strength, for instance, allows the AC to make predictive mobility = decisions and cannot be represented in 802.3 = frames.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Tal Anker = [mailto:TalA@marvell.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:06 PM
To: Pat = Calhoun=20 (pacalhou); Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap]=20 comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies

Hi = Pat.
Upgrading the data path is = possible if=20 you have, for example, a network processor performing the data path = task. If=20 your AC is based on regular ethernet switch built with ASICs for the = data path=20 packet processing (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the = control=20 plane but not the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the ACs will = be based=20 on HW that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 packet formats seems = to me=20 like assuming to have some NP-like capabilities in the = AC....).
 
As for the piggybacking of = the=20 "technology specific" data... My intention was to extract this info = and send=20 some summary periodically to the AC using the LWAPP control messages = and NOT=20 to piggyback the data packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise = you=20 would be correct of course that this would not give much benefit. = However=20 doing this in the control path and not the data path allows you to = define new=20 LWAPP protocol messages/fields for summarizing "technology specific" = data as=20 new technologies are introduced...
 
As for differentiated = services - the QoS=20 portfolio that the AC can provide, is usualy at least as good as what = 802.11=20 can provide... for instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the = WTP to=20 the AC you can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if = the=20 traffic is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also if the = packet=20 is suppose to traverse another switch on the way to its destination = then=20 anyway it will get the QoS that the switch can assign it to the next = link=20 towards the destination... Thus I dont see a real benefit in keeping = the=20 wireless media original framing...
 
IMHO extending the LWAPP = protocol to=20 support the OPTION for using the AC specific link layer format (in = most cases=20 it would be 802.3) would be beneficial in the future and would give = LWAPP the=20 flexability that it needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to = future=20 wireless technologies"...
 
 
- Tal
 

 

From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 on behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 = PM
To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless=20 technologies

Tal,

Thanks for the e-mail.

I believe = that I=20 understand your point, but I would argue that the AC
will have to = be=20 modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading
the code = in the=20 data path is really no more difficult than the control
path. If an=20 implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then
it is = limiting=20 its market.

I would argue that include "technology specific"=20 information piggy
backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard = to=20 achieve, because we
cannot predict what this information would end = up=20 being. For instance,
802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while = 802.16 has=20 something different
(and has additional information). So how would = you map=20 802.11 QoS field
into a field that may not match with = 802.16s?

If=20 one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this = would
require=20 changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features = will
require=20 changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of
802.11i=20 centralized encryption requires that the data path = perform
AES-CCMP, and=20 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing=20 and
policing.

So while I understand the point raised, I = firmly=20 believe that
transporting the native frame provides the AC with all = of=20 the
information for the specific technology, and allows it to=20 provide
differentiated services based on the information present - = vs.=20 limiting
it to what generic information would be in this piggy = backed=20 header.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business = Unit
Cisco=20 Systems



> -----Original Message-----
> From:=20 capwap-admin@frascone.com
> [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.co= m]=20 On Behalf Of Tal Anker
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 = AM
>=20 To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP = and=20 other wireless technologies
>
> Resending this (it seems = the first=20 attempt fails...
> appologies if you receive duplicate=20 copies...).
>
> Hi,
> while going over the LWAPP = draft and=20 on the objecives of
> CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP = objective that=20 may not be
> fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec.
> = The=20 LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would
> be=20 encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing.
> The = benefit=20 from doing this is having the original info
> carried in the .11 = frame=20 available to the AC.
> However, this requires the AC to process = the=20 native 802.11
> frames; an operation that will probably be done = in some=20 HW
> component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP = objectives
>=20 was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various
> = wireless=20 technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be
> applicable = no only=20 for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the
> beginning of the = LWAPP=20 draft). However mandating that the
> wireless media frames would = be sent=20 to the AC in their
> original format would make this objective = harder=20 to
> achieve... When a new wireless media type would be
>=20 introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to
> process = the=20 data frames (not only the control frames that can
> obviously be = processed in the AC cpu...).
> This means either a HW change (or = if the=20 AC is using NP then
> an NP SW upgrade).
> What seems = reasonable=20 to do is to add the OPTION for sending
> the data frames to the = AC using=20 the media type tha tthe WTP
> is connected to the AC with. = Meaning - to=20 convert the frame
> in the WTP and to send it to the AC for = instance=20 using 802.3
> ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless = technology=20 is
> inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating=20 the
> SW of the AC.
>
> As for loosing the specific = media=20 information that was in the
> 802.11 header - this info can be = collected=20 by the WTP and be
> sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol=20 messages...
>
> Supporting both the current LWAPP = suggestion=20 (sending the
> original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option = to=20 convert
> to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to = the
>=20 "future wireless technologies" objective...
>
> -=20 Tal
>
>=20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20 Tal Anker, PhD.
> DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and = Secure=20 Systems Group.
> The School of Engineering and Computer Science, = The=20 hebrew
> University of Jerusalem,=20 Israel.
>
>
>
>=20 _______________________________________________
> Capwap mailing = list
> Capwap@frascone.com
> http://mail.fra= scone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
________________________= _______________________
Capwap=20 mailing list
Capwap@frascone.com
http://mail.fra= scone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

------_=_NextPart_001_01C597ED.EEEF51AA-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 01:48:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0C6s-0001o8-8o for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:48:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA09877 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBBF1FE14; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DDF1FC41; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:48:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38CA1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F211FC24 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2005 22:47:03 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,162,1120460400"; d="scan'208"; a="652601753:sNHT62143094" Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j735l2Is009503; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:47:02 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA14@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWXcUENQi0NB/SxQti6wYKGiXI9RQAFxzaQAAknynAAEFi/YA== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Yuval Cohen" Cc: "Tal Anker" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 05:47:02.0428 (UTC) FILETIME=[C5AB5DC0:01C597EE] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:46:59 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yuval, I'd like to comment on your point about having the WTP process the information, and provide a digested version of the information. How would you propose that the WTP represent the changes in signal strength (which occur in real time) to the AC - and how frequent would you propose these updates be made? Would this be a packet that hits the control processor, because if so, then I have some serious scaling concerns. That said, I think that in the end we need the evaluation team to make a recommendation on a protocol, and then let the WG decide. If the WG decides that two separate protocol formats would be better than one, then we can go down that path (and make sure that we make one mandatory to implement). Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Yuval Cohen [mailto:YuvalC@marvell.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:18 PM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Cc: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless=20 > technologies >=20 > Pat, > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, the=20 > data path in some cases is realized in silicon. Processing=20 > 802.11 frames may add to complexity and cost. >=20 > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the WTP to=20 > send the 802.11 frame, as in the case of centralized crypto=20 > (although that may conflict with HCCA) but for those=20 > implementations not requiring that and in particular local AP=20 > case, there is no real need for 802.11 frame reaching the AC. > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be processed=20 > within the WTP and provided to the AC if needed via the=20 > control plane, possibly after some digestion.=20 > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple=20 > and will enable a large install base of existing switches to=20 > become AC with just software upgrade. This will aid wide=20 > adoption of LDAP. >=20 >=20 > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the frame=20 > format to 802.11 only but rather allow two formats, either=20 > 802.11 or 802.3.=20 >=20 > Yuval > =20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless=20 > technologies >=20 > Tal, >=20 > Thanks for the e-mail. >=20 > I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue=20 > that the AC will have to be modified to support a new=20 > technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is=20 > really no more difficult than the control path. If an=20 > implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then=20 > it is limiting its market. >=20 > I would argue that include "technology specific" information=20 > piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to=20 > achieve, because we cannot predict what this information=20 > would end up being. For instance, > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something=20 > different (and has additional information). So how would you=20 > map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? >=20 > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then=20 > this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further,=20 > certain features will require changes to the data path, for=20 > instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption=20 > requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e=20 > requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. >=20 > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that=20 > transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the=20 > information for the specific technology, and allows it to=20 > provide differentiated services based on the information=20 > present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would=20 > be in this piggy backed header. >=20 > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems >=20 > =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless=20 > technologies > >=20 > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails...=20 > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > >=20 > > Hi, > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of=20 > CAPWAP there=20 > > seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully=20 > achieved with the=20 > > current LWAPP spec. > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would be=20 > > encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info=20 > carried in the=20 > > .11 frame available to the AC. > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11=20 > frames; an=20 > > operation that will probably be done in some HW component.=20 > My concern=20 > > is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable=20 > not only to=20 > > 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP=20 > > should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as it=20 > indeed states=20 > > in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the=20 > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their=20 > original format=20 > > would make this objective harder to achieve... When a new wireless=20 > > media type would be introduced, the AC would have to be somehow=20 > > adapted to process the data frames (not only the control=20 > frames that=20 > > can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP=20 > then an NP SW=20 > > upgrade). > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for=20 > sending the data=20 > > frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP is=20 > connected to the=20 > > AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP and to=20 > send it to=20 > > the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet frames... This way=20 > when a new=20 > > wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs=20 > to be done=20 > > is updating the SW of the AC. > >=20 > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and=20 > be sent to=20 > > the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > >=20 > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the original=20 > > 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert to the AC media=20 > > type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future wireless=20 > technologies"=20 > > objective... > >=20 > > - Tal > >=20 > >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew=20 > University=20 > > of Jerusalem, Israel. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 03:05:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0DJO-00046L-8V for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:05:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA19716 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8591FC24; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F283E1FC7B; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:05:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEAC1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:05:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mei.co.jp (smtp2.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.27]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E11F1FC24 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp2.mei.co.jp (8.12.10/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id j7374sa8006702; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:04:54 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx2) with ESMTP id j7374s614909; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:04:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/bluejays) with ESMTP id j7374sB24127; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:04:54 +0900 (JST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD4B21D1@pslexc01.psl.local> Thread-topic: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Thread-index: AcWW0J/Q5Qmt2XwkRuK9DQjbLy//HQAowxawAAV+lXAAG9v/MA== From: "Saravanan Govindan" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:04:47 +0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat, The WiCoP Configuration Data message configures the WTP. This provides the WTP with information on logical group establishment on the wireless medium segment (in the current draft, 'BSSID'). I want to note that there are different possible implementations for logical groups over the wireless medium segment, including "identity-based".=20 The Configuration Data messages then maps the logical groups over the wireless medium segment to those over the switched segment. So for an indentity-based logical group over the wireless medium segment, there will be a corresponding group/tunnel over the switching segment. BSSID-TunnelID (now GroupMap-ID) provides the link to the tunnels (e.g. VLANs) established by the AC.=20 This covers the WTP configuration for logical groups.=20 Next, for each new terminal, the WiCoP Terminal Addition message maps it to a particular logical group over the wireless medium segment, which in turn was earlier mapped to a corresponding logical group over the switching segment.=20 So, WiCoP does indeed comply to the Logical Groups objective in that it allows for consistent separation of logical groups across both wireless medium and switching segments.=20 I hope this helps clarify WiCoP's operations in terms of logical groups. Saravanan =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:16 AM > To: Saravanan Govindan; capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting >=20 > Saravanan, >=20 > I was basing my information on the response during the WiCOP=20 > presentation, so I apologize if I was incorrect. However, I=20 > read the sections you list below and I still don't see how=20 > WiCOP provides this function. >=20 > From my understanding, there is a Configuration Data message=20 > that is sent from the AC to the WTP. This message may include=20 > the BSSID-TunnelID information in the Config-WTP-Data message=20 > element, which includes a tunnelID that I believe the AC uses=20 > for bridging purposes. However, I believe that this=20 > information is sent to the WTP during the creation of the=20 > SSID (I am making this assumption since it includes such=20 > information such as beacon times).=20 >=20 > However, the WiCOP protocol also includes the Terminal=20 > Addition message, which only incudes the Terminal Data=20 > message element. My understanding is that the message is=20 > exchanged between the AC and WTP (direction depends upon=20 > whether split or local MAC is used) when a station is being=20 > granted access to the WTP. This message element does not=20 > include any VLAN or TunnelID information. >=20 > So perhaps the way the protocol would work is that the AC=20 > would send a new Conf-WTP-Data immediately followed by a=20 > Terminal-Addition message, but if so I wonder what happens to=20 > all of the other terminals associated with the BSSID that=20 > were assigned to a different TunnelID. I would expect a new=20 > BSSID-TunnelID would cause all users on the BSSID to change, no? >=20 > One more thing that I am not seeing is how the AC sends=20 > specific VLAN information to the WTP when a terminal is=20 > granted access without any user data tunneling. I would have=20 > expected some form of a VLAN ID in the Terminal-Data=20 > Response, but the current spec only seems to include a Result field. >=20 > I'm probably just missing something, so your help is appreciated. >=20 > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems >=20 > =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Saravanan Govindan=20 > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:18 AM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting > >=20 > > Pat, > >=20 > > The WiCoP authors appreciate your thoughts on WiCoP but they are=20 > > incorrect. As I mentioned earlier regarding Puneet's=20 > question, WiCoP=20 > > "does" allow for different forms of logical groups. This is=20 > included=20 > > in the descriptions of Conf-WTP-Data and its operations in Sections=20 > > 5.2.2 and 6.4.1. The WiCoP tunnels mentioned in the=20 > description covers=20 > > various types of logical groups over the switching segment. > >=20 > > For the case of "Identity Based Networking", WiCoP simply needs to=20 > > assign a terminal to an identity-based logical group > > (VLAN) over the switching segment using the Terminal-Data message=20 > > element. The BSSID-TunnelID (now renamed to > > 'GroupMap-ID') provides the mapping between logical groups over the=20 > > wireless medium segment (any type of virtual AP) and over the=20 > > switching segment (any type of tunnel). > >=20 > > Also, we need to remember that the Logical Groups Objective=20 > requires=20 > > that a CAPWAP protocol be able to manage in terms of consistent=20 > > logical groups - covering both the switching and wireless medium=20 > > segments. So I think WiCoP does this best given the GroupMap-ID=20 > > functionality. > >=20 > > Saravanan > >=20 > >=20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > 4. Compliance to the "Logical Groups" objective > >=20 > > While I recognize that this point was raised at=20 > the last minute, and=20 > > therefore was not included in the evaluation team's review. > > This recent comments raised by Richard Gee make it clear=20 > that not all=20 > > implementations comply with this objective. > > Specifically, most implementations do not specify how to=20 > map locally=20 > > bridged traffic on a Local MAC approach to a specific VLAN. WiCop=20 > > includes the basic capabilities, but does not allow for "Identity=20 > > Based Networking", which is typical in most products today=20 > (meaning a=20 > > user is mapped to a specific VLAN based on its authorization=20 > > information, not as a default BSSID policy). LWAPP includes this=20 > > information and is therefore in complete compliance with the=20 > > objectives. > >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 03:17:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0DV3-0005dY-8P for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:17:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA20318 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE222027D; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF991FE14; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:17:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187831FDE9 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aruba-mx.arubanetworks.com (mail.arubanetworks.com [216.31.249.253]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DC86D1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aruba-mx1.arubanetworks.com ([10.1.1.17]) by aruba-mx.arubanetworks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:17:08 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C597FB.54DED6B9" Message-ID: <99C8B9B2AD99664A87E12C839A2E909377BB3E@aruba-mx1.arubanetworks.com> Thread-Topic: Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWX+1qMHCzB1pLpRnCX4GaPRp5rqQ== From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 07:17:08.0673 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C0AE310:01C597FB] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:17:06 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597FB.54DED6B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597FB.54DED6B9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the = issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is = a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic = is bridged at the WTP (Darren’s slide says “local MAC with = local bridging”, but this was really a typo and should have read, = according to Darren, “split MAC with local bridging”). This mode is not = defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode = really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a = clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if = we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is = meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol. =

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C597FB.54DED6B9-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 03:42:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0DtD-0007fF-7U for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:42:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA21873 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B932027D; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2611FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:42:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA651FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maili.marvell.com (host2.marvell.com [65.219.4.2]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB7E1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rdlnexch01.marvell.com (rdlnexch01.marvell.com [10.6.1.9]) by maili.marvell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6484726D8; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C597FE.D2060DC2" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies thread-index: AcWXcUENQi0NB/SxQti6wYKGiXI9RQAFxzaQAAkGDBwAEElkkAAEJ3JC From: "Tal Anker" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Tal Anker" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:37:39 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597FE.D2060DC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personally I think that for the generality of LWAPP being it a CONTROL = protocol it should strive to be media independent on the data plane = (obviously the control plane would have a lot to do with the wireless = media ....). And if it can be done while allowing both modes - native = 802.11 and 802.3 frames, then IMHO its probably the best way to go.... =20 Anyway - as you rightfully said - its the WG call...=20 =20 - Tal ________________________________ From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 7:40 AM To: Tal Anker; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies Well, obviously the WG needs to decide, but frankly I see this as being = no different than say IPv6 or even 802.1q (for those IEEE heads). = Changes in protocols require hardware/firmware changes. I believe that = sending "periodic" information about data frames is not useful and that = in order for the AC to act as an AP, it needs the data on each and every = frame. Such things as signal strength, for instance, allows the AC to = make predictive mobility decisions and cannot be represented in 802.3 = frames. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Tal Anker [mailto:TalA@marvell.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:06 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies =09 =09 Hi Pat. Upgrading the data path is possible if you have, for example, a network = processor performing the data path task. If your AC is based on regular = ethernet switch built with ASICs for the data path packet processing = (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the control plane but not = the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the ACs will be based on HW = that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 packet formats seems to me = like assuming to have some NP-like capabilities in the AC....). =20 As for the piggybacking of the "technology specific" data... My = intention was to extract this info and send some summary periodically to = the AC using the LWAPP control messages and NOT to piggyback the data = packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise you would be correct of = course that this would not give much benefit. However doing this in the = control path and not the data path allows you to define new LWAPP = protocol messages/fields for summarizing "technology specific" data as = new technologies are introduced... =20 As for differentiated services - the QoS portfolio that the AC can = provide, is usualy at least as good as what 802.11 can provide... for = instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the WTP to the AC you = can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if the traffic = is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also if the packet is = suppose to traverse another switch on the way to its destination then = anyway it will get the QoS that the switch can assign it to the next = link towards the destination... Thus I dont see a real benefit in = keeping the wireless media original framing...=20 =20 IMHO extending the LWAPP protocol to support the OPTION for using the = AC specific link layer format (in most cases it would be 802.3) would be = beneficial in the future and would give LWAPP the flexability that it = needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to future wireless = technologies"... =20 =20 - Tal =20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 PM To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies =09 =09 Tal, =09 Thanks for the e-mail. =09 I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the AC will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that = upgrading the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the control path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then it is limiting its market. =09 I would argue that include "technology specific" information piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because we cannot predict what this information would end up being. For instance, 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different (and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? =09 If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features will require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. =09 So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide differentiated services based on the information present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed header. =09 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =09 =09 =09 > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > To: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > Hi, > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be > fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec. > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would > be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > carried in the .11 frame available to the AC. > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW > component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives > was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various > wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be > applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the > beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > original format would make this objective harder to > achieve... When a new wireless media type would be > introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to > process the data frames (not only the control frames that can > obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then > an NP SW upgrade). > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending > the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP > is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame > in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3 > ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is > inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the > SW of the AC. > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be > sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the > original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert > to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the > "future wireless technologies" objective... > > - Tal > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Tal Anker, PhD. > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > University of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597FE.D2060DC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A= RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=
Personally I = think that for =0A= the generality of LWAPP being it a CONTROL protocol it should strive to = be media =0A= independent on the data plane (obviously the control plane would have a = lot to =0A= do with the wireless media ....). And if it can be done while allowing = both =0A= modes - native 802.11 and 802.3 frames, then IMHO its probably the best = way to =0A= go....
=0A=
 
=0A=
Anyway - as you rightfully = said - its the =0A= WG call...
=0A=
 
=0A=
- Tal
=0A=

=0A=
=0A= From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) =0A= [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 7:40 = AM
To: =0A= Tal Anker; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap] =0A= comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies

=0A=
=0A=
Well, obviously the WG needs to decide, but = frankly I see =0A= this as being no different than say IPv6 or even 802.1q (for those IEEE = heads). =0A= Changes in protocols require hardware/firmware changes. I believe that = sending =0A= "periodic" information about data frames is not useful and that in order = for the =0A= AC to act as an AP, it needs the data on each and every frame. Such = things as =0A= signal strength, for instance, allows the AC to make predictive mobility =0A= decisions and cannot be represented in 802.3 = frames.
=0A=

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business =0A= Unit
Cisco Systems

=0A=
 

=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= From: Tal Anker = [mailto:TalA@marvell.com] =0A=
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:06 PM
To: Pat = Calhoun =0A= (pacalhou); Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap] =0A= comment about LWAPP and other wireless = technologies

=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Hi = Pat.
=0A=
Upgrading the data path is = possible if =0A= you have, for example, a network processor performing the data path = task. If =0A= your AC is based on regular ethernet switch built with ASICs for the = data path =0A= packet processing (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the = control =0A= plane but not the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the ACs will = be based =0A= on HW that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 packet formats seems = to me =0A= like assuming to have some NP-like capabilities in the = AC....).
=0A=
 
=0A=
As for the piggybacking of = the =0A= "technology specific" data... My intention was to extract this info = and send =0A= some summary periodically to the AC using the LWAPP control messages = and NOT =0A= to piggyback the data packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise = you =0A= would be correct of course that this would not give much benefit. = However =0A= doing this in the control path and not the data path allows you to = define new =0A= LWAPP protocol messages/fields for summarizing "technology specific" = data as =0A= new technologies are introduced...
=0A=
 
=0A=
As for differentiated = services - the QoS =0A= portfolio that the AC can provide, is usualy at least as good as what = 802.11 =0A= can provide... for instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the = WTP to =0A= the AC you can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if = the =0A= traffic is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also if the = packet =0A= is suppose to traverse another switch on the way to its destination = then =0A= anyway it will get the QoS that the switch can assign it to the next = link =0A= towards the destination... Thus I dont see a real benefit in keeping = the =0A= wireless media original framing...
=0A=
 
=0A=
IMHO extending the LWAPP = protocol to =0A= support the OPTION for using the AC specific link layer format (in = most cases =0A= it would be 802.3) would be beneficial in the future and would give = LWAPP the =0A= flexability that it needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to = future =0A= wireless technologies"...
=0A=
 
=0A=
 
=0A=
- Tal
=0A=
 
=0A=

 
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com =0A= on behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 =0A= PM
To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: =0A= [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless =0A= technologies

=0A=
=0A=

Tal,

Thanks for the e-mail.

I believe = that I =0A= understand your point, but I would argue that the AC
will have to = be =0A= modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading
the code = in the =0A= data path is really no more difficult than the control
path. If an =0A= implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then
it is = limiting =0A= its market.

I would argue that include "technology specific" =0A= information piggy
backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard = to =0A= achieve, because we
cannot predict what this information would end = up =0A= being. For instance,
802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while = 802.16 has =0A= something different
(and has additional information). So how would = you map =0A= 802.11 QoS field
into a field that may not match with = 802.16s?

If =0A= one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this = would
require =0A= changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features = will
require =0A= changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of
802.11i =0A= centralized encryption requires that the data path = perform
AES-CCMP, and =0A= 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing =0A= and
policing.

So while I understand the point raised, I = firmly =0A= believe that
transporting the native frame provides the AC with all = of =0A= the
information for the specific technology, and allows it to =0A= provide
differentiated services based on the information present - = vs. =0A= limiting
it to what generic information would be in this piggy = backed =0A= header.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business = Unit
Cisco =0A= Systems



> -----Original Message-----
> From: =0A= capwap-admin@frascone.com
> [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.co= m] =0A= On Behalf Of Tal Anker
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 = AM
> =0A= To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP = and =0A= other wireless technologies
>
> Resending this (it seems = the first =0A= attempt fails...
> appologies if you receive duplicate =0A= copies...).
>
> Hi,
> while going over the LWAPP = draft and =0A= on the objecives of
> CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP = objective that =0A= may not be
> fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec.
> = The =0A= LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would
> be =0A= encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing.
> The = benefit =0A= from doing this is having the original info
> carried in the .11 = frame =0A= available to the AC.
> However, this requires the AC to process = the =0A= native 802.11
> frames; an operation that will probably be done = in some =0A= HW
> component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP = objectives
> =0A= was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various
> = wireless =0A= technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be
> applicable = no only =0A= for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the
> beginning of the = LWAPP =0A= draft). However mandating that the
> wireless media frames would = be sent =0A= to the AC in their
> original format would make this objective = harder =0A= to
> achieve... When a new wireless media type would be
> =0A= introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to
> process = the =0A= data frames (not only the control frames that can
> obviously be =0A= processed in the AC cpu...).
> This means either a HW change (or = if the =0A= AC is using NP then
> an NP SW upgrade).
> What seems = reasonable =0A= to do is to add the OPTION for sending
> the data frames to the = AC using =0A= the media type tha tthe WTP
> is connected to the AC with. = Meaning - to =0A= convert the frame
> in the WTP and to send it to the AC for = instance =0A= using 802.3
> ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless = technology =0A= is
> inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating =0A= the
> SW of the AC.
>
> As for loosing the specific = media =0A= information that was in the
> 802.11 header - this info can be = collected =0A= by the WTP and be
> sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol =0A= messages...
>
> Supporting both the current LWAPP = suggestion =0A= (sending the
> original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option = to =0A= convert
> to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to = the
> =0A= "future wireless technologies" objective...
>
> - =0A= Tal
>
> =0A= = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =0A= Tal Anker, PhD.
> DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and = Secure =0A= Systems Group.
> The School of Engineering and Computer Science, = The =0A= hebrew
> University of Jerusalem, =0A= Israel.
>
>
>
> =0A= _______________________________________________
> Capwap mailing =0A= list
> Capwap@frascone.com
> http://mail.fra= scone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
________________________= _______________________
Capwap =0A= mailing list
Capwap@frascone.com
http://mail.fra= scone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

=0A= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C597FE.D2060DC2-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 04:02:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0ECc-00051p-1c for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:02:14 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA23071 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03ED11FE17; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B7C1FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:02:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829331FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.169.223]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 436471FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 13068 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 08:01:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO MICHAELV-LT.wavecompass.com) (mvakulenko@212.179.88.120 with login) by smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 08:01:32 -0000 Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803094717.05f84c50@pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 To: "Tal Anker" From: Michael Vakulenko Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Cc: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Tal Anker" , In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_261995529==.ALT" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:00:30 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) --=====================_261995529==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I agree with Tal. Many of non-802.11 wireless technologies to be supported by CAPWAP are defined by IEEE802. For example WiMAX is defined in IEEE 802.16. These other technologies are by definition interoperable with Ethernet (802.3), which belongs to the same family of L2 standards. Allowing for 802.3 frames in CAPWAP data plane is the most generic way to support wireless technologies other than 802.11. IMHO, support for 802.3 data plane should be mandatory in CAPWAP as the most generic 802 method. Tunneling of wireless frames should be allowed as an option. Thanks, -- Michael V. At 10:37 AM 8/3/2005, Tal Anker wrote: >Personally I think that for the generality of LWAPP being it a >CONTROL protocol it should strive to be media independent on the >data plane (obviously the control plane would have a lot to do with >the wireless media ....). And if it can be done while allowing both >modes - native 802.11 and 802.3 frames, then IMHO its probably the >best way to go.... > >Anyway - as you rightfully said - its the WG call... > >- Tal > > >---------- >From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] >Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 7:40 AM >To: Tal Anker; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com >Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > >Well, obviously the WG needs to decide, but frankly I see this as >being no different than say IPv6 or even 802.1q (for those IEEE >heads). Changes in protocols require hardware/firmware changes. I >believe that sending "periodic" information about data frames is not >useful and that in order for the AC to act as an AP, it needs the >data on each and every frame. Such things as signal strength, for >instance, allows the AC to make predictive mobility decisions and >cannot be represented in 802.3 frames. > >Pat Calhoun >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >Cisco Systems > > > >---------- >From: Tal Anker [mailto:TalA@marvell.com] >Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:06 PM >To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com >Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > >Hi Pat. >Upgrading the data path is possible if you have, for example, a >network processor performing the data path task. If your AC is based >on regular ethernet switch built with ASICs for the data path packet >processing (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the >control plane but not the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the >ACs will be based on HW that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 >packet formats seems to me like assuming to have some NP-like >capabilities in the AC....). > >As for the piggybacking of the "technology specific" data... My >intention was to extract this info and send some summary >periodically to the AC using the LWAPP control messages and NOT to >piggyback the data packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise >you would be correct of course that this would not give much >benefit. However doing this in the control path and not the data >path allows you to define new LWAPP protocol messages/fields for >summarizing "technology specific" data as new technologies are introduced... > >As for differentiated services - the QoS portfolio that the AC can >provide, is usualy at least as good as what 802.11 can provide... >for instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the WTP to the >AC you can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if >the traffic is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also >if the packet is suppose to traverse another switch on the way to >its destination then anyway it will get the QoS that the switch can >assign it to the next link towards the destination... Thus I dont >see a real benefit in keeping the wireless media original framing... > >IMHO extending the LWAPP protocol to support the OPTION for using >the AC specific link layer format (in most cases it would be 802.3) >would be beneficial in the future and would give LWAPP the >flexability that it needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to >future wireless technologies"... > > >- Tal > > > > >---------- >From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) >Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 PM >To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com >Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > >Tal, > >Thanks for the e-mail. > >I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the AC >will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading >the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the control >path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then >it is limiting its market. > >I would argue that include "technology specific" information piggy >backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because we >cannot predict what this information would end up being. For instance, >802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different >(and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field >into a field that may not match with 802.16s? > >If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this would >require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features will >require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of >802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path perform >AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing and >policing. > >So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that >transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the >information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide >differentiated services based on the information present - vs. limiting >it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed header. > >Pat Calhoun >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] > On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > Hi, > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > > CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be > > fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec. > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would > > be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > > carried in the .11 frame available to the AC. > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW > > component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives > > was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various > > wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be > > applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the > > beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > > original format would make this objective harder to > > achieve... When a new wireless media type would be > > introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to > > process the data frames (not only the control frames that can > > obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then > > an NP SW upgrade). > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending > > the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP > > is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame > > in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3 > > ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is > > inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the > > SW of the AC. > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be > > sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the > > original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert > > to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the > > "future wireless technologies" objective... > > > > - Tal > > > > ===================================================================== > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > University of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >_______________________________________________ >Capwap mailing list >Capwap@frascone.com >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap --=====================_261995529==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I agree with Tal.

Many of non-802.11 wireless technologies to be supported by CAPWAP are defined by IEEE802. For example WiMAX is defined in IEEE 802.16. These other technologies are by definition interoperable with Ethernet (802.3), which belongs to the same family of L2 standards.

Allowing for 802.3 frames in CAPWAP data plane is the most generic way to support wireless technologies other than 802.11.

IMHO, support for 802.3 data plane should be mandatory in CAPWAP as the most generic 802 method. Tunneling of wireless frames should be allowed as an option.

Thanks,

-- Michael V.

At 10:37 AM 8/3/2005, Tal Anker wrote:
Personally I think that for the generality of LWAPP being it a CONTROL protocol it should strive to be media independent on the data plane (obviously the control plane would have a lot to do with the wireless media ....). And if it can be done while allowing both modes - native 802.11 and 802.3 frames, then IMHO its probably the best way to go....
 
Anyway - as you rightfully said - its the WG call...
 
- Tal


From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [ mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 7:40 AM
To: Tal Anker; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies

Well, obviously the WG needs to decide, but frankly I see this as being no different than say IPv6 or even 802.1q (for those IEEE heads). Changes in protocols require hardware/firmware changes. I believe that sending "periodic" information about data frames is not useful and that in order for the AC to act as an AP, it needs the data on each and every frame. Such things as signal strength, for instance, allows the AC to make predictive mobility decisions and cannot be represented in 802.3 frames.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 


From: Tal Anker [ mailto:TalA@marvell.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:06 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies

Hi Pat.
Upgrading the data path is possible if you have, for example, a network processor performing the data path task. If your AC is based on regular ethernet switch built with ASICs for the data path packet processing (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the control plane but not the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the ACs will be based on HW that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 packet formats seems to me like assuming to have some NP-like capabilities in the AC....).
 
As for the piggybacking of the "technology specific" data... My intention was to extract this info and send some summary periodically to the AC using the LWAPP control messages and NOT to piggyback the data packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise you would be correct of course that this would not give much benefit. However doing this in the control path and not the data path allows you to define new LWAPP protocol messages/fields for summarizing "technology specific" data as new technologies are introduced...
 
As for differentiated services - the QoS portfolio that the AC can provide, is usualy at least as good as what 802.11 can provide... for instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the WTP to the AC you can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if the traffic is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also if the packet is suppose to traverse another switch on the way to its destination then anyway it will get the QoS that the switch can assign it to the next link towards the destination... Thus I dont see a real benefit in keeping the wireless media original framing...
 
IMHO extending the LWAPP protocol to support the OPTION for using the AC specific link layer format (in most cases it would be 802.3) would be beneficial in the future and would give LWAPP the flexability that it needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to future wireless technologies"...
 
 
- Tal
 

 

From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 PM
To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies

Tal,

Thanks for the e-mail.

I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the AC
will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading
the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the control
path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then
it is limiting its market.

I would argue that include "technology specific" information piggy
backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because we
cannot predict what this information would end up being. For instance,
802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different
(and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field
into a field that may not match with 802.16s?

If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this would
require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features will
require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of
802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path perform
AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing and
policing.

So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that
transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the
information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide
differentiated services based on the information present - vs. limiting
it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed header.

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems



> -----Original Message-----
> From: capwap-admin@frascone.com
> [ mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies
>
> Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails...
> appologies if you receive duplicate copies...).
>
> Hi,
> while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of
> CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be
> fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec.
> The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would
> be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing.
> The benefit from doing this is having the original info
> carried in the .11 frame available to the AC.
> However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11
> frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW
> component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives
> was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various
> wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be
> applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the
> beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the
> wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their
> original format would make this objective harder to
> achieve... When a new wireless media type would be
> introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to
> process the data frames (not only the control frames that can
> obviously be processed in the AC cpu...).
> This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then
> an NP SW upgrade).
> What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending
> the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP
> is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame
> in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3
> ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is
> inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the
> SW of the AC.
>
> As for loosing the specific media information that was in the
> 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be
> sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages...
>
> Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the
> original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert
> to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the
> "future wireless technologies" objective...
>
> - Tal
>
> =====================================================================
> Tal Anker, PhD.
> DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group.
> The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew
> University of Jerusalem, Israel.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Capwap mailing list
> Capwap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
_______________________________________________
Capwap mailing list
Capwap@frascone.com
http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
--=====================_261995529==.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 04:15:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0EP7-00052E-U7 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:15:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA23892 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:15:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7F52027D; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58691FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:15:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by 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http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 04:29:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Ecf-0004lL-Kx for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:29:09 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA24781 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920E82027D; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DB91FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:29:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9B81FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.169.223]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E8CB1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 34219 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 08:28:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO MICHAELV-LT.wavecompass.com) (mvakulenko@212.179.88.120 with login) by smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 08:28:06 -0000 Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803102144.063d3eb0@pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" From: Michael Vakulenko Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Cc: "Yuval Cohen" , "Tal Anker" , In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA14@xmb-sjc-235.amer.ci sco.com> References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA14@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:27:19 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Pat, Your question is independent of whether CAPWAP tunnels 802.3 or 802.11 frame. Signal strength field does not present in 802.11 frame headers. Having tunnel 802.11 frames doesn't solve the problem. Thanks, -- Michael V. At 08:46 AM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: >Yuval, > >I'd like to comment on your point about having the WTP process the >information, and provide a digested version of the information. How >would you propose that the WTP represent the changes in signal strength >(which occur in real time) to the AC - and how frequent would you >propose these updates be made? Would this be a packet that hits the >control processor, because if so, then I have some serious scaling >concerns. > >That said, I think that in the end we need the evaluation team to make a >recommendation on a protocol, and then let the WG decide. If the WG >decides that two separate protocol formats would be better than one, >then we can go down that path (and make sure that we make one mandatory >to implement). > >Pat Calhoun >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Yuval Cohen [mailto:YuvalC@marvell.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:18 PM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Cc: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > > > Pat, > > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, the > > data path in some cases is realized in silicon. Processing > > 802.11 frames may add to complexity and cost. > > > > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the WTP to > > send the 802.11 frame, as in the case of centralized crypto > > (although that may conflict with HCCA) but for those > > implementations not requiring that and in particular local AP > > case, there is no real need for 802.11 frame reaching the AC. > > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be processed > > within the WTP and provided to the AC if needed via the > > control plane, possibly after some digestion. > > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple > > and will enable a large install base of existing switches to > > become AC with just software upgrade. This will aid wide > > adoption of LDAP. > > > > > > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the frame > > format to 802.11 only but rather allow two formats, either > > 802.11 or 802.3. > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > > > Tal, > > > > Thanks for the e-mail. > > > > I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue > > that the AC will have to be modified to support a new > > technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is > > really no more difficult than the control path. If an > > implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then > > it is limiting its market. > > > > I would argue that include "technology specific" information > > piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to > > achieve, because we cannot predict what this information > > would end up being. For instance, > > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something > > different (and has additional information). So how would you > > map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? > > > > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then > > this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, > > certain features will require changes to the data path, for > > instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption > > requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e > > requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. > > > > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that > > transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the > > information for the specific technology, and allows it to > > provide differentiated services based on the information > > present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would > > be in this piggy backed header. > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > > > Hi, > > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > > CAPWAP there > > > seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully > > achieved with the > > > current LWAPP spec. > > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would be > > > encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > > carried in the > > > .11 frame available to the AC. > > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > frames; an > > > operation that will probably be done in some HW component. > > My concern > > > is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable > > not only to > > > 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP > > > should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as it > > indeed states > > > in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > > original format > > > would make this objective harder to achieve... When a new wireless > > > media type would be introduced, the AC would have to be somehow > > > adapted to process the data frames (not only the control > > frames that > > > can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP > > then an NP SW > > > upgrade). > > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for > > sending the data > > > frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP is > > connected to the > > > AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP and to > > send it to > > > the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet frames... This way > > when a new > > > wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs > > to be done > > > is updating the SW of the AC. > > > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and > > be sent to > > > the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the original > > > 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert to the AC media > > > type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future wireless > > technologies" > > > objective... > > > > > > - Tal > > > > > > > > ===================================================================== > > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > University > > > of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >_______________________________________________ >Capwap mailing list >Capwap@frascone.com >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 04:50:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Ex1-0003qE-Ut for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:50:12 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA25642 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F92C20418; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EB081FDE9; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:50:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92231FDE9 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F961FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2005 01:49:09 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j738n2up025767 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:49:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC6870BE@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxA From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 08:49:07.0825 (UTC) FILETIME=[35B6A610:01C59808] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:49:03 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess I fail to see what this controversy is all about. If you want to forward 802.3 frames from the WTP, you are using the local MAC variant supported by LWAPP. In fact, that is what the taxonomy draft specifies. =20 If all you have in your AC is Ethernet switch silicon on the data path, this is the only reasonable implementation. To say that another option is necessary to support conversion of 802.11 frames to 802.3 frames in the WTP in split MAC mode, separate the 802.11-specific information and forward the 802.3 frames and separated 802.11 information about those forwarded 802.3 frames in LWAPP packets is ridiculous. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean that everything else in the world is a nail. It seems that this is a tremendous complication to the AC, which now needs to correlate this separated information. This correlation operation was not necessary when the 802.11 frames were forwarded directly, since the frames and their information arrived whole and together.=20 In order to reduce the computing load on the AC to correlate the separated information, the WTP could send only summarized information. Of course, this reduces the amount of information available to the AC, without justification. -Bob =20 -----Original Message----- From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Michael Vakulenko Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:27 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Cc: Yuval Cohen; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Pat, Your question is independent of whether CAPWAP tunnels 802.3 or=20 802.11 frame. Signal strength field does not present in 802.11 frame=20 headers. Having tunnel 802.11 frames doesn't solve the problem. Thanks, -- Michael V. At 08:46 AM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: >Yuval, > >I'd like to comment on your point about having the WTP process the >information, and provide a digested version of the information. How >would you propose that the WTP represent the changes in signal strength >(which occur in real time) to the AC - and how frequent would you >propose these updates be made? Would this be a packet that hits the >control processor, because if so, then I have some serious scaling >concerns. > >That said, I think that in the end we need the evaluation team to make a >recommendation on a protocol, and then let the WG decide. If the WG >decides that two separate protocol formats would be better than one, >then we can go down that path (and make sure that we make one mandatory >to implement). > >Pat Calhoun >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Yuval Cohen [mailto:YuvalC@marvell.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:18 PM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Cc: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > > > Pat, > > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, the > > data path in some cases is realized in silicon. Processing > > 802.11 frames may add to complexity and cost. > > > > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the WTP to > > send the 802.11 frame, as in the case of centralized crypto > > (although that may conflict with HCCA) but for those > > implementations not requiring that and in particular local AP > > case, there is no real need for 802.11 frame reaching the AC. > > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be processed > > within the WTP and provided to the AC if needed via the > > control plane, possibly after some digestion. > > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple > > and will enable a large install base of existing switches to > > become AC with just software upgrade. This will aid wide > > adoption of LDAP. > > > > > > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the frame > > format to 802.11 only but rather allow two formats, either > > 802.11 or 802.3. > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > > > Tal, > > > > Thanks for the e-mail. > > > > I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue > > that the AC will have to be modified to support a new > > technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is > > really no more difficult than the control path. If an > > implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then > > it is limiting its market. > > > > I would argue that include "technology specific" information > > piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to > > achieve, because we cannot predict what this information > > would end up being. For instance, > > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something > > different (and has additional information). So how would you > > map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? > > > > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then > > this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, > > certain features will require changes to the data path, for > > instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption > > requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e > > requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. > > > > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that > > transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the > > information for the specific technology, and allows it to > > provide differentiated services based on the information > > present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would > > be in this piggy backed header. > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > > > Hi, > > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > > CAPWAP there > > > seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully > > achieved with the > > > current LWAPP spec. > > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would be > > > encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > > carried in the > > > .11 frame available to the AC. > > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > frames; an > > > operation that will probably be done in some HW component. > > My concern > > > is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable > > not only to > > > 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP > > > should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as it > > indeed states > > > in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > > original format > > > would make this objective harder to achieve... When a new wireless > > > media type would be introduced, the AC would have to be somehow > > > adapted to process the data frames (not only the control > > frames that > > > can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP > > then an NP SW > > > upgrade). > > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for > > sending the data > > > frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP is > > connected to the > > > AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP and to > > send it to > > > the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet frames... This way > > when a new > > > wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs > > to be done > > > is updating the SW of the AC. > > > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and > > be sent to > > > the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the original > > > 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert to the AC media > > > type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future wireless > > technologies" > > > objective... > > > > > > - Tal > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > University > > > of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >_______________________________________________ >Capwap mailing list >Capwap@frascone.com >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 05:13:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0FJH-0006KZ-Ex for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:13:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA26955 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D2120353; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690281FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:13:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79D41FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from typhoon.trangosoft.com (unknown [209.82.51.154]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E3A1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phantom-out.trangosoft.com ([136.157.233.22]) by 136.157.233.32 with trend_isnt_name_B; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:13:26 -0400 Received: from troll3.trangosoft.com (troll3.trangosoft.com [136.157.233.13]) by phantom-out.trangosoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8378C24FA8; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by troll3.trangosoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:07:20 -0400 Message-ID: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601322104C@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> From: Michael Montemurro To: Michael Vakulenko , "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" Cc: Yuval Cohen , Tal Anker , capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:12:00 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) In the CTP draft, which is likely more aligned with what I would call a Local MAC implementation rather than an split MAC implementation, we tunnel 802.3 frames. In the case of local MAC, you are bridging data to 802.3 at the WTP so it makes sense to tunnel 802.3 frames. Practically speaking, the only additional information in an 802.11 frame (MSDU) is a BSSID. In most implementations, the BSSID maps to a VLAN tag in 802.3. However we found for fast data plane processing we mapped the BSSID to a Network ID in the CTP header. We have also provided the option for the WTP to send the RSSI and RATE as part of the CTP header. In the split MAC case, I could see the value in the WTP passing the 802.xx frame to the AC in a tunnel. I still think you would want to for adding the network ID (representation of the SSID/BSSID) as part of the CAPWAP protocol header to aid in data plane processing. On the QoS side, I think you definitely need to apply the equivalent priority from the data frame to the tunnel header. I would say from a requirements perspective, the tunnelled data packet must include: 1) A data frame indicator in the header. 2) A Network ID in the header. 3) The SRC MAC, DEST MAC, and PAYLOAD 4) QoS information in the tunnel header. The open issue is what additional information could be given: 1) PHY specific information. For example, RSSI and RATE in 802.11. 2) MAC-specific information. I think in the split-MAC case, you could make an argument for using either type of data frame in the tunnel header. A 802.xx MAC header may involve slightly less processing than an 802.3 header at the WTP. But I really don't think there's much of a difference. In a local-MAC case if you tunnel data to the AC, then it would make more sense to use an 802.3 format for the data. Cheers, Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Michael Vakulenko > Sent: August 3, 2005 3:27 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Cc: Yuval Cohen; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > technologies > > Pat, > > Your question is independent of whether CAPWAP tunnels 802.3 or > 802.11 frame. Signal strength field does not present in > 802.11 frame headers. Having tunnel 802.11 frames doesn't > solve the problem. > > Thanks, > > -- Michael V. > > At 08:46 AM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: > >Yuval, > > > >I'd like to comment on your point about having the WTP process the > >information, and provide a digested version of the information. How > >would you propose that the WTP represent the changes in > signal strength > >(which occur in real time) to the AC - and how frequent would you > >propose these updates be made? Would this be a packet that hits the > >control processor, because if so, then I have some serious scaling > >concerns. > > > >That said, I think that in the end we need the evaluation > team to make > >a recommendation on a protocol, and then let the WG decide. > If the WG > >decides that two separate protocol formats would be better than one, > >then we can go down that path (and make sure that we make > one mandatory > >to implement). > > > >Pat Calhoun > >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > >Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Yuval Cohen [mailto:YuvalC@marvell.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:18 PM > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > > Cc: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > Pat, > > > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, the > data path > > > in some cases is realized in silicon. Processing > > > 802.11 frames may add to complexity and cost. > > > > > > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the WTP > to send the > > > 802.11 frame, as in the case of centralized crypto (although that > > > may conflict with HCCA) but for those implementations not > requiring > > > that and in particular local AP case, there is no real need for > > > 802.11 frame reaching the AC. > > > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be processed > within the > > > WTP and provided to the AC if needed via the control > plane, possibly > > > after some digestion. > > > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple and > > > will enable a large install base of existing switches to > become AC > > > with just software upgrade. This will aid wide adoption of LDAP. > > > > > > > > > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the frame > format to > > > 802.11 only but rather allow two formats, either > > > 802.11 or 802.3. > > > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun > > > (pacalhou) > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > > > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > Tal, > > > > > > Thanks for the e-mail. > > > > > > I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue > that the > > > AC will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that > > > upgrading the code in the data path is really no more > difficult than > > > the control path. If an implementation exists that does not allow > > > for upgrade, then it is limiting its market. > > > > > > I would argue that include "technology specific" > information piggy > > > backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to > achieve, because > > > we cannot predict what this information would end up being. For > > > instance, > > > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something > > > different (and has additional information). So how would you map > > > 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? > > > > > > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this > > > would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain > > > features will require changes to the data path, for instance the > > > introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption requires that the > > > data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific > quality of > > > service queuing and policing. > > > > > > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that > > > transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the > > > information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide > > > differentiated services based on the information present - vs. > > > limiting it to what generic information would be in this piggy > > > backed header. > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > > > CAPWAP there > > > > seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully > > > achieved with the > > > > current LWAPP spec. > > > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would be > > > > encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > > > carried in the > > > > .11 frame available to the AC. > > > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > > frames; an > > > > operation that will probably be done in some HW component. > > > My concern > > > > is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable > > > not only to > > > > 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a > result the LWAPP > > > > should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as it > > > indeed states > > > > in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > > > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > > > original format > > > > would make this objective harder to achieve... When a > new wireless > > > > media type would be introduced, the AC would have to be somehow > > > > adapted to process the data frames (not only the control > > > frames that > > > > can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP > > > then an NP SW > > > > upgrade). > > > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for > > > sending the data > > > > frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP is > > > connected to the > > > > AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP and to > > > send it to > > > > the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet frames... This way > > > when a new > > > > wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs > > > to be done > > > > is updating the SW of the AC. > > > > > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > > > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and > > > be sent to > > > > the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending > the original > > > > 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert to > the AC media > > > > type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future wireless > > > technologies" > > > > objective... > > > > > > > > - Tal > > > > > > > > > > > > ===================================================================== > > > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure > Systems Group. > > > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > > University > > > > of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Capwap mailing list > >Capwap@frascone.com > >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 05:56:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Fyt-000239-DV for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:56:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA01048 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4C12027D; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506DD1FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:56:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4889A1FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:55:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0979B1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j739ioEk025684; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 02:44:50 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508030944.j739ioEk025684@stout.trpz.com> To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:25:52 PDT." <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278A68D@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <25682.1123062290.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:44:50 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Pat, On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:25:52 PDT you wrote > > All, > > I wanted to provide some of my observations on some comments stated > during today's face to face meeting, and specifically how these relate > to the LWAPP protocol. > > 1. There is no way that CAPWAP can create a protocol that can satisfy > upcoming standards work, and therefore CAPWAP shouldn't bother to create > a control protocol. Wow, I don't know what meeting you attended. I don't recall anyone saying that "CAPWAP shouldn't bother to create a control protocol." In fact, all the candidate proposals include a control protocol. > This statement is actually completely untrue. If one looks at > the work currently going on in 802.11k, 802,11r, 802.11v and 802.11w, > none of these will actually require any changes to the LWAPP protocol. > In fact, all of these extensions to the base protocol simply make use of > MAC management messages, and with the LWAPP protocol all that is needed > is to simply forward these frames to/from the AC and WTP. I'm sorry Pat but that just isn't true. How can an AC instruct a WTP to request a noise histogram report from a STA without any changes to LWAPP? Even if there was a generic "MAC management message" in which you could stuff such a thing how would the WTP parse it? How would it send a response back to the AC? How could a WTP produce a reasonable neighbor report for a requesting STA without sending it up to the AC and getting a response. There just is no way to do that in LWAPP! 11r is going to stuff more cruft in the beacons. There is an explicit LWAPP message to add the 11i cruft to the beacons. If LWAPP had some meaningful generic way to send a "MAC management message" to add 11r cruft to the beacon then why don't you use it to add the 11i cruft to the beacon? Simple, because you can't do that in LWAPP. And while I'm there, why are you adding 49 bytes of emptyness to that IEEE 802.11 Add WLAN message? That seems really pointless and wasteful. > The authors do agree that the introduction of 802.11e and > 802.11i required changes to the WTP/AC interface, but both of these are > already handled in the LWAPP protocol. See my comment above. > While we cannot state that this will be true of all 802.11 > extensions moving forward, one or more of the LWAPP authors are involved > in nearly all of the ongoing 802.11 activities and we are not aware of > any extension that would require any changes to the CAPWAP protocol. > > 2. It would be much better to simply design a protocol that allows an AC > vendor to download code for WTPs and not standardize the control > protocol. Again, I don't recall that ever being said in the meeting and since I was the only one to bring up a protocol for image download I have to think you're misquoting me. What I said was that it is extremely important to have an image download capability in the resulting CAPWAP protocol. It allows for innovation in the dynamic WLAN market. Without such a capability we will be locked into a protocol with limited capability to configure new and/or innovative features. > We've been down this path before, and frankly I was surprised > that the SLAPP authors opted to focus on this aspect of their protocol, > but I can re-state my issues with this proposal. Frankly I'm surprised that you feel that if you merely respond to it on the list that it somehow puts the issue behind the entire WG. I brought up the subject because SLAPP is the only protocol with this very important feature. It differentiates SLAPP from the others and I wanted to highlight that. > The whole goal of standards is to get guaranteed > interoperability. I believe that coming up with a proposal that allows a > vendor to claim compatibility with a "CAPWAP RFC", which does not > interoperate with the customer's existing deployment will create > confusion in the market. While I understand the motivations of the SLAPP > team, I believe that this strategy is a slippery slope that could give > the IETF (and the general WLAN market) a huge black eye. We *must* > create a protocol that guarantees interoperability. "A slippery slope" that gives "a huge black eye"? Ahhhhh! Metaphor alert! No one is arguing against interoperability. I'm all in favor of it. I'm also in favor of world peace and ending hunger. Yes, the whole goal of standards is to get interoperability (although a "guarantee" is a bit much, we can strive for it). > If the AC vendor ports their code to WTPs without the WTP > vendor's knowledge (or consent), as proposed today, then who would the > end customer call if there were issues with their gear? The AC or the > WTP vendor? What happens to the warranty? Is it invalidated if one loads > foreign code to the hardware? The response from the SLAPP team was that > the end customer could re-load the standard code prior to calling > support, but this seems like a burden that most customers would not even > want to deal with. I realize we want to focus on technical, and not > business issues, on this list, but the protocol created by the CAPWAP WG > must be one that customers would be willing to deploy. If the failure was hardware I imagine it would be RMA'd to the manufacturer. If the failure was software I imagine the owner of the downloaded image would be contacted. Customers _ARE_ willing to deploy this. Many customers spent lots of money buying standalone, fat APs. They are now realizing that managing them doesn't scale and want a thin AP with a switch but they don't really want to just turn all their existing fat APs into paperweights. This allows them to get some more return on their investment. As the fat APs that were turned into thin APs fail (as they eventually do) they are replaced by thin APs from the switch vendor. This is a reality today Pat. > There is more than a single 802.11 MAC in the market. The > comments made during the SLAPP preso is that APs have become a commodity > and that code can easily be ported to. The reality is that there are > many 802.11 MACs in the market today, and none of them have an identical > interface. The consequence of this proposal would require the AC vendor > to port their code to multiple platforms. I can't speak for the rest of > the protocol authors, but I for one know that my company would much > prefer to reserve its engineering resources to deal with innovation vs. > porting to different WTP hardware. No, the comments made during the SLAPP preso is that the justification for needing CAPWAP was that APs _WOULD BECOME_ commodity-priced things. If that is not the case then we should just disband the WG and not waste anyone's time. Someone who used to just sign his email "PatC" wrote a couple of years ago, "how about we go down the path of making the AP relatively simple (aka light weight), and push all functionality that is not real-time specific (meaning not 802.11 control) in the AR. This way, value add is provided in the AR, not the AP. So you can use anyone's AP and get similar functionality (granted some APs will work better than others)." Some WTPs will work better than others with a particular AC? So my WTPs will work better with my AC and your WTPs will work better with your AC, etc. Not too surprising. So what would motivate a customer to not go with a single vendor solution? Cost! If WTPs do not become commodity-priced then there will be little motivation in buying a mixed vendor solution using this "standard". And then what's the point of a "standard"? > Not all reference designs are identical. While there are some > ODMs that simply take a reference design, there are some that add value > and as a consequence the hardware layout (and components or even > antennas) are different. Therefore it is not fair to state that porting > code for one 802.11 MAC manufacturer is a one time process. No one ever said it was a one-time process. But it has been done. > WTP manufacturers frequently make design changes to their > hardware, in some cases just for cost savings reasons and in other cases > due to parts being obsoleted. These changes generally require software > modifications (e.g., new flash), and these types of dynamic environments > create an interesting challenge for the AC vendors. This places the > burden on the AC vendors to have to track the wide variety of WTPs, and > in many cases these issues would be raised by customers attempting to > load new firmware, which could lead the WTP to become a brick in the > ceiling (unless the AC vendor has a very close relationship with all WTP > vendor's manufacturing group). This is a challenge within an > organization, let alone across companies. Hence the need for hardware versioning information in the SLAPP discovery request. > 3. All protocols are the nearly the same, so making changes to a > protocol is simple. That is something of a non sequitur and, again, I don't recall ever hearing that in the meeting. I said that the 4 competing protocols all allow for control and provisioning of WTPs by an AC. And while some may have features that others don't, those features could be added to the protocols which do not have them and make all the protocols essentially identical. > I respectfully disagree with this statement. I believe that one > of the value of the LWAPP specification is that it has been implemented > in two separate products (Airespace and Cisco), and that the lessons > learned from those implementations were added to the specification. It > isn't fair to state that one can "simply add information" to a spec that > easily - one needs to ensure that adding this information is consistent > with the flow of the document, is sufficiently specified, and more > importantly, works. "Two separate products"? That's hilarious Pat. It reminds me of that scene from the Blues Brothers where the proprieter of a bar tells Elwood that "we play both kinds of music, country and western." For years Cisco had bad-mouthed LWAPP so I find it incredibly hard to believe that anyone there would've implemented it prior to Cisco's acquisition of Airespace. So after you went to Cisco they now support LWAPP. I used to work at Cisco, I know how that stuff happens. You seem to think that other WLAN switch vendors do not have proprietary protocols to control and provision their switch. They do, just like you. > I think that one of the advantages of the LWAPP specification is > the fact that it has undergone a significant amount of peer review over > the past 18+ months, which is evidenced in the maturity of the current > specification. Products implementing the specification have been > shipping for over 2 years, and have gained WiFi certification. Such > trivialities as system behavior are the types of things that are > generally only added once implementations exist, but are important in > ensuring that the working group start with a solid reference document. > > One of my biggest concerns with the SLAPP document is the fact > that the control protocol was "invented" between -00 and -01 in a very > short amount of time, has had no implementations proving that it is > complete and works. In the end it's not only about "rough consensus", > but also about "running code". Again, you're not the only one with a proprietary protocol running between a switch and an AP. > 4. Compliance to the "Logical Groups" objective > > While I recognize that this point was raised at the last minute, > and therefore was not included in the evaluation team's review. This > recent comments raised by Richard Gee make it clear that not all > implementations comply with this objective. Specifically, most > implementations do not specify how to map locally bridged traffic on a > Local MAC approach to a specific VLAN. WiCop includes the basic > capabilities, but does not allow for "Identity Based Networking", which > is typical in most products today (meaning a user is mapped to a > specific VLAN based on its authorization information, not as a default > BSSID policy). LWAPP includes this information and is therefore in > complete compliance with the objectives. In SLAPP a tag is included in the Unicast and Broadcast/Multicast key configuration requests. That is how SLAPP allows for "Identity-based Networking". > 5. Separation of Control and Data Path. > > While I recognize that the objective may be vague in this > specific area, the original intent (I thought) was to allow the control > and data path to be individually recognized, as well as to allow for > both to be sent to separate systems - allowing for a higher level of > scalability. The LWAPP protocol defines the mechanisms that allow the > control traffic to be sent to one system (CAPWAP Control System), while > the data plane would be sent to a forwarding engine (CAPWAP Data > Forwarding Engine). Imagine a chassis based system with a control and > one or more data blades. As does SLAPP. In fact, I think SLAPP has a much better separation of the two than LWAPP since in SLAPP control is UDP and data is encapsulated in GRE. With LWAPP the difference is a single bit, on for one path, off for the other. SLAPP satisfies all the requirements in the CAPWAP objectives draft. Some not completely according to the evaluation team (but then no single protocol completely satisfies them all according to them) and I look forward to finding out whether some of those are, as was mentioned, possibly C- or P+. SLAPP also includes the important feature of image download which will allow CAPWAP to keep up with innovations in the dynamic WLAN environment. It's a complete protocol and I really would like to see it adopted as a base protocol for CAPWAP. Dan. _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 05:58:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0G0q-0002b1-0b for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:58:13 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA01130 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3211FDE9; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8F51FC7B; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:58:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D416A1FDE9 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maili.marvell.com (host2.marvell.com [65.219.4.2]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0EC51FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rdlnexch01.marvell.com (rdlnexch01.marvell.com [10.6.1.9]) by maili.marvell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D3026AD; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 02:57:25 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies thread-index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxAAAFRzaA= From: "Yuval Cohen" To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:55:22 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Qm9iLA0KdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gaXMgbm90IG9ubHkgYWJvdXQgbG9jYWwgTUFDIGJ1dCBhbHNv IGFib3V0IHNwbGl0IE1BQy4gVGhlIGxvY2FsIE1BQyB3YXMgZ2l2ZW4ganVzdCBhcyBhbiBleGFt cGxlLg0KRm9yIHJlYXNvbnMgcHJvdmlkZWQgYmVmb3JlLCBJIHNlZSBhbHNvIGEgbG90IG9mIHNl bnNlIGluIHVzaW5nIDgwMi4zIGZyYW1lcyBhbHNvIGluIHRoZSBzcGxpdCBNQUMgY2FzZSwgd2hl cmUgeW91IGRvIHRoZSBkaXN0cmlidXRpb24gZnVuY3Rpb24gKGJhc2VkIG9uIDgwMi4zIGZyYW1l IHN3aXRjaGluZykgd2l0aGluIHRoZSBBQw0KU2luY2UgaW4gYW55IGNhc2UgeW91IG5lZWQgdG8g YWRkIHRoZSA4MDIuMTEgc3BlY2lmaWMgaW5mbyAobGlrZSBSU1NJKSwgSSdkIHJhdGhlciBzZWUg aXQgd2l0aGluIHRoZSBMV0FQUCB0dW5uZWwgaGVhZGVyIHNvIEkgY2FuIGNob29zZSBpZiB0byB0 YWtlIGl0IGZyb20gdGhlcmUgb3Igbm90IGFuZCBrZWVwIHRoZSBmcmFtZSA4MDIuMy4gVGhpcyB3 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cHdhcEBmcmFzY29uZS5jb20NCmh0dHA6Ly9tYWlsLmZyYXNjb25lLmNvbS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2NhcHdhcA0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18NCkNhcHdhcCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkNhcHdhcEBmcmFzY29uZS5jb20NCmh0dHA6Ly9tYWls LmZyYXNjb25lLmNvbS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2NhcHdhcA0K _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 06:05:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0G7a-0005Lt-Al for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:05:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01480 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4AB204BE; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A8E1FDE9; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:05:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E051FDE9 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577471FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:04:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2005 03:04:23 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j73A4Hul004730 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:04:23 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC6870BF@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWYErhT9kF/vMb1TNWUfuti5xB28A== From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 10:04:23.0068 (UTC) FILETIME=[B9020DC0:01C59812] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:04:21 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about the impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he was not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would like to discuss this further on the list. =20 It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code is not from the entity that received the original certification for the device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, third party code. In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also be physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon vendors. The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory certification with every AC vendor. This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for an AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. It is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer sufficient to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model numbers. I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry for AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number of ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely interoperable products. -Bob Bob O'Hara Cisco Systems - WNBU Phone: +1 408 853 5513 Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 =20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 06:13:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0GFK-0007ip-Fs for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:13:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01944 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669B0204E7; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1BB1FDE9; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:13:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D4D1FDE9 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9AC1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j73A24dd026375; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:02:04 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508031002.j73A24dd026375@stout.trpz.com> To: "Yuval Cohen" Cc: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Tal Anker" , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:18:27 +0300." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-unknown" Content-ID: <26373.1123063324.1@trpz.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:02:04 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yuval, I'd like to note that SLAPP allows either 802.3 or 802.11 frames to be GRE encapsulated and sent to the AC. This is a very important feature. Dan. On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:18:27 +0300 you wrote > Pat, > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, the data path in s= ome c >ases is realized in silicon. Processing 802.11 frames may add to complexi= ty an >d cost. > = > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the WTP to send the 802.= 11 fr >ame, as in the case of centralized crypto (although that may conflict wit= h HCC >A) but for those implementations not requiring that and in particular loc= al AP > case, there is no real need for 802.11 frame reaching the AC. > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be processed within the WTP a= nd pr >ovided to the AC if needed via the control plane, possibly after some dig= estio >n. = > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple and will en= able = >a large install base of existing switches to become AC with just software= upgr >ade. This will aid wide adoption of LDAP. > = > = > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the frame format to 802.1= 1 onl >y but rather allow two formats, either 802.11 or 802.3. = > = > Yuval > = > = > = > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Be= half = >Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologie= s > = > Tal, > = > Thanks for the e-mail. > = > I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the AC > will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading > the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the control > path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then > it is limiting its market. > = > I would argue that include "technology specific" information piggy > backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because we > cannot predict what this information would end up being. For instance, > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different > (and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field > into a field that may not match with 802.16s? > = > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this would > require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features will > require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of > 802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path perform > AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing and > policing. > = > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that > transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the > information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide > differentiated services based on the information present - vs. limiting > it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed header. > = > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > = > = > = > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com = > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > = > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... = > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > = > > Hi, > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of = > > CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be = > > fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec. > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would = > > be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. = > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info = > > carried in the .11 frame available to the AC. > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 = > > frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW = > > component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives = > > was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various = > > wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be = > > applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the = > > beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the = > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their = > > original format would make this objective harder to = > > achieve... When a new wireless media type would be = > > introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to = > > process the data frames (not only the control frames that can = > > obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then = > > an NP SW upgrade). > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending = > > the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP = > > is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame = > > in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3 = > > ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is = > > inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the = > > SW of the AC. > > = > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the = > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be = > > sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > = > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the = > > original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert = > > to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the = > > "future wireless technologies" objective... > > = > > - Tal > > = > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew = > > University of Jerusalem, Israel. > > = > > = > > = > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > = > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > =FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF= =FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=C2j=9C=1A=A6f=A2=96)=E0=96+- =AApj=9F=DF= =AD=AB=1C=A2w=FFr=89=A1=B6=DA=FF=FF=F9=9A=8A_=DF=AD=AB=1C=A2w=FFr=89=BF=99= =A8=A5=99=A9=FF=96+-=8Aw=E8=FD=C6=A9 > = _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 06:23:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0GOz-00057m-VB for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:23:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA02309 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 055E2204E6; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1BE1FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:23:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619831FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2795F1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 8259 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 10:22:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO MICHAELV-LT.wavecompass.com) (mvakulenko@212.179.88.120 with login) by smtp110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 10:22:49 -0000 Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803105639.056b4d10@pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" From: Michael Vakulenko Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Cc: In-Reply-To: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC6870BE@xmb-sjc-237.amer.ci sco.com> References: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC6870BE@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:21:52 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Bob, Pls see my comments below. Thanks, -- Michael V. www.WaveCompass.com At 11:49 AM 8/3/2005, Bob O'Hara \(boohara\) wrote: >I guess I fail to see what this controversy is all about. If you want >to forward 802.3 frames from the WTP, you are using the local MAC >variant supported by LWAPP. In fact, that is what the taxonomy draft >specifies. I don't see there is a controversy here. I'll clarify what is the point of discussion: The question relates to the split-MAC operation. Current LWAPP draft has a limitation of tunneling of 802.11 frames to the AC. The suggestion is to allow tunneling of 802.3 frames in addition to 802.11. WTP will select tunneling type on command from the AC. In my opinion, support for 802.3 tunneling shall be mandatory with the option of 802.11 tunneling for the reasons listed in the previous email exchanges. >If all you have in your AC is Ethernet switch silicon on the data path, >this is the only reasonable implementation. To say that another option >is necessary to support conversion of 802.11 frames to 802.3 frames in >the WTP in split MAC mode, separate the 802.11-specific information and >forward the 802.3 frames and separated 802.11 information about those >forwarded 802.3 frames in LWAPP packets is ridiculous. Just because you >have a hammer, doesn't mean that everything else in the world is a nail. It is not ridiculous at all if we'll think about it little bit more. By tunneling 802.3 frames we can centralize Portal function of 802.11 DS. This has great advantages in handing mobility of stations. This is where the hammer finds the nail.... >It seems that this is a tremendous complication to the AC, which now >needs to correlate this separated information. This correlation >operation was not necessary when the 802.11 frames were forwarded >directly, since the frames and their information arrived whole and >together. Tremendous complication sounds like an overstatement here. Some vendors make choose to trade the need for correlation for simplicity, cost and efficiency in the data plane processing. In the end, vendor flexibility is one of the CAPWAP mandatory objectives. Airespace design, with all due respect (really), is not the only design possible. Besides, I just don't get how forwarding of 802.11 frames helps you to provide RSSI to the AC. You know better than me that 802.11 frame format doesn't have RSSI field. >In order to reduce the computing load on the AC to correlate the >separated information, the WTP could send only summarized information. >Of course, this reduces the amount of information available to the AC, >without justification. You are assuming that the AC absolutely needs all this information. This assumption may not hold for other vendors, which may use other, possibly more efficient methods to achieve the same goals. > -Bob > >-----Original Message----- >From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On >Behalf Of Michael Vakulenko >Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:27 AM >To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) >Cc: Yuval Cohen; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com >Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless >technologies > >Pat, > >Your question is independent of whether CAPWAP tunnels 802.3 or >802.11 frame. Signal strength field does not present in 802.11 frame >headers. Having tunnel 802.11 frames doesn't solve the problem. > >Thanks, > >-- Michael V. > >At 08:46 AM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: > >Yuval, > > > >I'd like to comment on your point about having the WTP process the > >information, and provide a digested version of the information. How > >would you propose that the WTP represent the changes in signal strength > >(which occur in real time) to the AC - and how frequent would you > >propose these updates be made? Would this be a packet that hits the > >control processor, because if so, then I have some serious scaling > >concerns. > > > >That said, I think that in the end we need the evaluation team to make >a > >recommendation on a protocol, and then let the WG decide. If the WG > >decides that two separate protocol formats would be better than one, > >then we can go down that path (and make sure that we make one mandatory > >to implement). > > > >Pat Calhoun > >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > >Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Yuval Cohen [mailto:YuvalC@marvell.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:18 PM > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > > Cc: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > Pat, > > > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, the > > > data path in some cases is realized in silicon. Processing > > > 802.11 frames may add to complexity and cost. > > > > > > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the WTP to > > > send the 802.11 frame, as in the case of centralized crypto > > > (although that may conflict with HCCA) but for those > > > implementations not requiring that and in particular local AP > > > case, there is no real need for 802.11 frame reaching the AC. > > > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be processed > > > within the WTP and provided to the AC if needed via the > > > control plane, possibly after some digestion. > > > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple > > > and will enable a large install base of existing switches to > > > become AC with just software upgrade. This will aid wide > > > adoption of LDAP. > > > > > > > > > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the frame > > > format to 802.11 only but rather allow two formats, either > > > 802.11 or 802.3. > > > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun >(pacalhou) > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > > > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > Tal, > > > > > > Thanks for the e-mail. > > > > > > I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue > > > that the AC will have to be modified to support a new > > > technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is > > > really no more difficult than the control path. If an > > > implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then > > > it is limiting its market. > > > > > > I would argue that include "technology specific" information > > > piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to > > > achieve, because we cannot predict what this information > > > would end up being. For instance, > > > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something > > > different (and has additional information). So how would you > > > map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with 802.16s? > > > > > > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then > > > this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, > > > certain features will require changes to the data path, for > > > instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption > > > requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e > > > requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. > > > > > > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that > > > transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the > > > information for the specific technology, and allows it to > > > provide differentiated services based on the information > > > present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would > > > be in this piggy backed header. > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > > > CAPWAP there > > > > seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully > > > achieved with the > > > > current LWAPP spec. > > > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would be > > > > encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > > > carried in the > > > > .11 frame available to the AC. > > > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > > frames; an > > > > operation that will probably be done in some HW component. > > > My concern > > > > is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable > > > not only to > > > > 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a result the >LWAPP > > > > should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as it > > > indeed states > > > > in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > > > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > > > original format > > > > would make this objective harder to achieve... When a new wireless > > > > media type would be introduced, the AC would have to be somehow > > > > adapted to process the data frames (not only the control > > > frames that > > > > can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP > > > then an NP SW > > > > upgrade). > > > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for > > > sending the data > > > > frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP is > > > connected to the > > > > AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP and to > > > send it to > > > > the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet frames... This way > > > when a new > > > > wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs > > > to be done > > > > is updating the SW of the AC. > > > > > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > > > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and > > > be sent to > > > > the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the original > > > > 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert to the AC media > > > > type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future wireless > > > technologies" > > > > objective... > > > > > > > > - Tal > > > > > > > > > > > >===================================================================== > > > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems >Group. > > > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > > University > > > > of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Capwap mailing list > >Capwap@frascone.com > >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >_______________________________________________ >Capwap mailing list >Capwap@frascone.com >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >_______________________________________________ >Capwap mailing list >Capwap@frascone.com >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 06:33:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0GYj-0002At-9A for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:33:14 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA02860 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0F0A1FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2A31FDE9; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:33:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B8F1FDE9 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8377B1FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j73ALgTI027689; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:21:42 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508031021.j73ALgTI027689@stout.trpz.com> To: Michael Vakulenko Cc: "Tal Anker" , "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Tal Anker" , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:00:30 +0300." <6.2.3.4.0.20050803094717.05f84c50@pop.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <27687.1123064502.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:21:42 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Michael, That's a great suggestion. I also think support for 802.3 in the data plane should be the mandatory mode of CAPWAP. Dan. On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:00:30 +0300 you wrote > > I agree with Tal. > > Many of non-802.11 wireless technologies to be supported by CAPWAP > are defined by IEEE802. For example WiMAX is defined in IEEE 802.16. > These other technologies are by definition interoperable with > Ethernet (802.3), which belongs to the same family of L2 standards. > > Allowing for 802.3 frames in CAPWAP data plane is the most generic > way to support wireless technologies other than 802.11. > > IMHO, support for 802.3 data plane should be mandatory in CAPWAP as > the most generic 802 method. Tunneling of wireless frames should be > allowed as an option. > > Thanks, > > -- Michael V. > > At 10:37 AM 8/3/2005, Tal Anker wrote: > >Personally I think that for the generality of LWAPP being it a > >CONTROL protocol it should strive to be media independent on the > >data plane (obviously the control plane would have a lot to do with > >the wireless media ....). And if it can be done while allowing both > >modes - native 802.11 and 802.3 frames, then IMHO its probably the > >best way to go.... > > > >Anyway - as you rightfully said - its the WG call... > > > >- Tal > > > > > >---------- > >From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] > >Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 7:40 AM > >To: Tal Anker; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > >Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > > >Well, obviously the WG needs to decide, but frankly I see this as > >being no different than say IPv6 or even 802.1q (for those IEEE > >heads). Changes in protocols require hardware/firmware changes. I > >believe that sending "periodic" information about data frames is not > >useful and that in order for the AC to act as an AP, it needs the > >data on each and every frame. Such things as signal strength, for > >instance, allows the AC to make predictive mobility decisions and > >cannot be represented in 802.3 frames. > > > >Pat Calhoun > >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > >Cisco Systems > > > > > > > >---------- > >From: Tal Anker [mailto:TalA@marvell.com] > >Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:06 PM > >To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > >Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > > >Hi Pat. > >Upgrading the data path is possible if you have, for example, a > >network processor performing the data path task. If your AC is based > >on regular ethernet switch built with ASICs for the data path packet > >processing (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the > >control plane but not the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the > >ACs will be based on HW that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 > >packet formats seems to me like assuming to have some NP-like > >capabilities in the AC....). > > > >As for the piggybacking of the "technology specific" data... My > >intention was to extract this info and send some summary > >periodically to the AC using the LWAPP control messages and NOT to > >piggyback the data packets of the 802.3 with this info... Otherwise > >you would be correct of course that this would not give much > >benefit. However doing this in the control path and not the data > >path allows you to define new LWAPP protocol messages/fields for > >summarizing "technology specific" data as new technologies are introduced... > > > >As for differentiated services - the QoS portfolio that the AC can > >provide, is usualy at least as good as what 802.11 can provide... > >for instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing from the WTP to the > >AC you can mark whatever you need on the frame (not to mention if > >the traffic is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP field). Also > >if the packet is suppose to traverse another switch on the way to > >its destination then anyway it will get the QoS that the switch can > >assign it to the next link towards the destination... Thus I dont > >see a real benefit in keeping the wireless media original framing... > > > >IMHO extending the LWAPP protocol to support the OPTION for using > >the AC specific link layer format (in most cases it would be 802.3) > >would be beneficial in the future and would give LWAPP the > >flexability that it needs in order to comply to the "applicablity to > >future wireless technologies"... > > > > > >- Tal > > > > > > > > > >---------- > >From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > >Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 PM > >To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > >Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > > >Tal, > > > >Thanks for the e-mail. > > > >I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the AC > >will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that upgrading > >the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the control > >path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then > >it is limiting its market. > > > >I would argue that include "technology specific" information piggy > >backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because we > >cannot predict what this information would end up being. For instance, > >802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something different > >(and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS field > >into a field that may not match with 802.16s? > > > >If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this would > >require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features will > >require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction of > >802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path perform > >AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing and > >policing. > > > >So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that > >transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the > >information for the specific technology, and allows it to provide > >differentiated services based on the information present - vs. limiting > >it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed header. > > > >Pat Calhoun > >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > >Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] > > On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies > > > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > > > Hi, > > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > > > CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be > > > fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec. > > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames would > > > be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > > > carried in the .11 frame available to the AC. > > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > > frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW > > > component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives > > > was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various > > > wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be > > > applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in the > > > beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the > > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > > > original format would make this objective harder to > > > achieve... When a new wireless media type would be > > > introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to > > > process the data frames (not only the control frames that can > > > obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP then > > > an NP SW upgrade). > > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for sending > > > the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP > > > is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame > > > in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using 802.3 > > > ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology is > > > inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating the > > > SW of the AC. > > > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in the > > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and be > > > sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the > > > original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert > > > to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the > > > "future wireless technologies" objective... > > > > > > - Tal > > > > > > ===================================================================== > > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. > > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > > University of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/ >mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Capwap mailing list > >Capwap@frascone.com > >http://mail.frascone.com/m >ailman/listinfo/capwap > > --=====================_261995529==.ALT > Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" > > > > I agree with Tal.

> Many of non-802.11 wireless technologies to be supported by CAPWAP are > defined by IEEE802. For example WiMAX is defined in IEEE 802.16. These > other technologies are by definition interoperable with Ethernet (802.3), > which belongs to the same family of L2 standards.

> Allowing for 802.3 frames in CAPWAP data plane is the most generic way to > support wireless technologies other than 802.11.

> IMHO, support for 802.3 data plane should be mandatory in CAPWAP as the > most generic 802 method. Tunneling of wireless frames should be allowed > as an option.

> Thanks,

> -- Michael V.

> At 10:37 AM 8/3/2005, Tal Anker wrote:
>
> Personally I think that for the > generality of LWAPP being it a CONTROL protocol it should strive to be > media independent on the data plane (obviously the control plane would > have a lot to do with the wireless media ....). And if it can be done > while allowing both modes - native 802.11 and 802.3 frames, then IMHO its > probably the best way to go....
>
 
> Anyway - as you rightfully said - > its the WG call...
>
 
> - Tal
>

>
> From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > [ > mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 7:40 AM
> To: Tal Anker; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > technologies
>

> Well, obviously the > WG needs to decide, but frankly I see this as being no different than say > IPv6 or even 802.1q (for those IEEE heads). Changes in protocols require > hardware/firmware changes. I believe that sending "periodic" > information about data frames is not useful and that in order for the AC > to act as an AP, it needs the data on each and every frame. Such things > as signal strength, for instance, allows the AC to make predictive > mobility decisions and cannot be represented in 802.3 frames.
>

> Pat Calhoun
> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> Cisco Systems
>
 

> >

> >
From: Tal Anker > [ > mailto:TalA@marvell.com]
> >
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:06 PM
> >
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
> >
Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > technologies
>

> >
Hi Pat.
> >
Upgrading the data path is possible if you have, for example, a > network processor performing the data path task. If your AC is based on > regular ethernet switch built with ASICs for the data path packet > processing (common practice), then you can easily upgrade the control > plane but not the forwarding plane....(assuming that all the ACs will be > based on HW that allows to easily upgrade to various L2 packet formats > seems to me like assuming to have some NP-like capabilities in the > AC....).
>
>
 
> >
As for the piggybacking of the > "technology specific" data... My intention was to extract this > info and send some summary periodically to the AC using the LWAPP control > messages and NOT to piggyback the data packets of the 802.3 with this > info... Otherwise you would be correct of course that this would not give > much benefit. However doing this in the control path and not the data > path allows you to define new LWAPP protocol messages/fields for > summarizing "technology specific" data as new technologies are > introduced...
>
>
 
> >
As for differentiated services - > the QoS portfolio that the AC can provide, is usualy at least as good as > what 802.11 can provide... for instance if you use ethernet 802.3 framing > from the WTP to the AC you can mark whatever you need on the frame (not > to mention if the traffic is IP traffic and you have additional DSCP > field). Also if the packet is suppose to traverse another switch on the > way to its destination then anyway it will get the QoS that the switch > can assign it to the next link towards the destination... Thus I dont see > a real benefit in keeping the wireless media original framing...
>
>
 
> >
IMHO extending the LWAPP > protocol to support the OPTION for using the AC specific link layer > format (in most cases it would be 802.3) would be beneficial in the > future and would give LWAPP the flexability that it needs in order to > comply to the "applicablity to future wireless > technologies"...
>
>
 
> >
 
> >
- Tal
> >
 

> >
 
>
> >
From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on > behalf of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
> >
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 11:16 PM
> >
To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com
> >
Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > technologies
>

> >
Tal,

> >
Thanks for the e-mail.

> >
I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue that the > AC
> >
will have to be modified to support a new technology, and that > upgrading
> >
the code in the data path is really no more difficult than the > control
> >
path. If an implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, > then
> >
it is limiting its market.

> >
I would argue that include "technology specific" > information piggy
> >
backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to achieve, because > we
> >
cannot predict what this information would end up being. For > instance,
> >
802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has something > different
> >
(and has additional information). So how would you map 802.11 QoS > field
> >
into a field that may not match with 802.16s?

> >
If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then this > would
> >
require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, certain features > will
> >
require changes to the data path, for instance the introduction > of
> >
802.11i centralized encryption requires that the data path > perform
> >
AES-CCMP, and 802.11e requires specific quality of service queuing > and
> >
policing.

> >
So while I understand the point raised, I firmly believe that
> >
transporting the native frame provides the AC with all of the
> >
information for the specific technology, and allows it to > provide
> >
differentiated services based on the information present - vs. > limiting
> >
it to what generic information would be in this piggy backed > header.

> >
Pat Calhoun
> >
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
> >
Cisco Systems

>

> >
> -----Original Message-----
> >
> From: capwap-admin@frascone.com
> >
> > [ > mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker
> >
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM
> >
> To: capwap@frascone.com
> >
> Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > technologies
> >
>
> >
> Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails...
> >
> appologies if you receive duplicate copies...).
> >
>
> >
> Hi,
> >
> while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of
> >
> CAPWAP there seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be
> >
> fully achieved with the current LWAPP spec.
> >
> The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames > would
> >
> be encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for > processing.
> >
> The benefit from doing this is having the original info
> >
> carried in the .11 frame available to the AC.
> >
> However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11
> >
> frames; an operation that will probably be done in some HW
> >
> component. My concern is that one of the CAPWAP objectives
> >
> was to be applicable not only to 802.11 but for various
> >
> wireless technologies. As a result the LWAPP should also be
> >
> applicable no only for 802.11... (as it indeed states in > the
> >
> beginning of the LWAPP draft). However mandating that the
> >
> wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their
> >
> original format would make this objective harder to
> >
> achieve... When a new wireless media type would be
> >
> introduced, the AC would have to be somehow adapted to
> >
> process the data frames (not only the control frames that > can
> >
> obviously be processed in the AC cpu...).
> >
> This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP > then
> >
> an NP SW upgrade).
> >
> What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for > sending
> >
> the data frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP
> >
> is connected to the AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame
> >
> in the WTP and to send it to the AC for instance using > 802.3
> >
> ethernet frames... This way when a new wireless technology > is
> >
> inroduced to the AC all that needs to be done is updating > the
> >
> SW of the AC.
> >
>
> >
> As for loosing the specific media information that was in > the
> >
> 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and > be
> >
> sent to the AC using LWAPP protocol messages...
> >
>
> >
> Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the
> >
> original 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to convert
> >
> to the AC media type will allow LWAPP to comply to the
> >
> "future wireless technologies" objective...
> >
>
> >
> - Tal
> >
>
> >
> > =====================================================================
> >
> Tal Anker, PhD.
> >
> DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems > Group.
> >
> The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew
> >
> University of Jerusalem, Israel.
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> >
> Capwap mailing list
> >
> Capwap@frascone.com
> >
> > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
> >
>
> >
_______________________________________________
> >
Capwap mailing list
> >
Capwap@frascone.com
> >
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap
>
>
> > > --=====================_261995529==.ALT-- > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 06:40:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0GfU-0005Fu-35 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:40:12 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA03623 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170D7204E7; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BEC1FD63; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:40:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6BB1FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A7B1FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j73AT6jn027721; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:29:06 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508031029.j73AT6jn027721@stout.trpz.com> To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT." <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC6870BF@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <27719.1123064946.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:29:06 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but that's just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore whether someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAPWAP. Dan. On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about the > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he was > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would like > to discuss this further on the list. > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code is > not from the entity that received the original certification for the > device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, > third party code. > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also be > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon vendors. > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory > certification with every AC vendor. > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. > Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for an > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. It > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer sufficient > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. > It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model > numbers. > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry for > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number of > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely > interoperable products. > > -Bob > > Bob O'Hara > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 06:40:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Gfw-0005u1-Qo for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:40:42 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA03662 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62AE21FC7B; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F735206BB; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:40:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E2D1FD63 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maili.marvell.com (host2.marvell.com [65.219.4.2]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6C41FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rdlnexch01.marvell.com (rdlnexch01.marvell.com [10.6.1.9]) by maili.marvell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D43D1AC1A; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:39:36 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59817.A427C559" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Expanded discussion on regulatory certification thread-index: AcWYErhT9kF/vMb1TNWUfuti5xB28AAA6YyZ From: "Tal Anker" To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:39:35 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59817.A427C559 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, Without taking sides on whether it should be LWAPP or SLAPP... I'd just = like to know what's bad with the ability to perform image download via = the CAPWAP protocol? If the vendor chooses to update the WTP with its = own SW, then be it - its the vendor problem to get the WTP certified... = However allowing to perform the image update from the AC in the = framework of the CAPWAP control protocol seems like a good thing = (whether the SW image is fromthe AC vendor or from the WTP vendor).... =20 - Tal ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on behalf of Bob O'Hara (boohara) Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 12:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about the impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he was not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would like to discuss this further on the list.=20 It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code is not from the entity that received the original certification for the device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, third party code. In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also be physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon vendors. The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory certification with every AC vendor. This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for an AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. It is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer sufficient to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model numbers. I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry for AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number of ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely interoperable products. -Bob Bob O'Hara Cisco Systems - WNBU Phone: +1 408 853 5513 Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59817.A427C559 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=
Hi = Bob,
=0A=
Without taking sides on = whether it should =0A= be LWAPP or SLAPP... I'd just like to know what's bad with the ability = to =0A= perform image download via the CAPWAP protocol? If the vendor chooses to = update =0A= the WTP with its own SW, then be it - its the vendor problem to get the = WTP =0A= certified... However allowing to perform the image update from the AC in = the =0A= framework of the CAPWAP control protocol seems like a good thing = (whether the SW =0A= image is fromthe AC vendor or from the WTP vendor)....
=0A=
 
=0A=
- Tal
=0A=

=0A=
=0A= From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on = behalf of Bob =0A= O'Hara (boohara)
Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 12:04 PM
To: =0A= capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on =0A= regulatory certification

=0A=
=0A=

At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter = for SLAPP =0A= about the
impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have =0A= received
regulatory certification.  At that time, the presenter = said =0A= that he was
not expert in that area, but suspected that = recertification of =0A= the
device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code.  I = would =0A= like
to discuss this further on the list. 

It is my = assertion =0A= that all regulatory agencies that require
certification of WTPs for = operation =0A= in their jurisdiction will require
that WTPs that receive code and = use it for =0A= operation, when that code is
not from the entity that received the = original =0A= certification for the
device, will require a new certification of = that device =0A= with the new,
third party code.

In addition, nearly all = regulatory =0A= agencies, certainly those in North
America, Europe, Asia, and the = Middle =0A= East, require an external
indication of the certification, usually a = sticker =0A= with an identifying
string.  I also assert that downloading new = code to =0A= a third party WTP
will require that all WTPs that have received that = code =0A= must now also be
physically accessed to have a new sticker = affixed.

It =0A= is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports = for
each =0A= silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon = vendors.
The AC =0A= vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every =0A= WTP
manufactured.  Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain =0A= regulatory
certification with every AC vendor.

This will be a =0A= significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors.
Where current = devices =0A= need to be certified once for each regulatory
domain, SLAPP will = require that =0A= each device is certified several times
for each regulatory = domain.  The =0A= cost of regulatory certification for an
AC vendor is now multiplied = by the =0A= number of WTPs that is supports.
Similarly, the cost of certification = for a =0A= WTP vendor is multiplied by
the number of ACs that are = supported.  Even =0A= sharing the cost of
certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts = this =0A= cost in half.  It
is still dramatically larger than with any = other =0A= proposal.

This is a very important issue.  With SLAPP, it is = no =0A= longer sufficient
to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol = to be =0A= interoperable.
It is now necessary that there be a specific business =0A= relationships
between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" = vendors =0A= and model
numbers.

I believe that this also significantly = raises the =0A= barriers to entry for
AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market = entry is =0A= associated with
the costs of regulatory certification with a = potentially =0A= large number of
ACs and WTPs.  As the number of ACs and WTPs = increase, =0A= this cost also
increases.  The result is likely to be an = entrenchment of =0A= the early
entrants into this market and the exclusion of new =0A= participants.

So, my final assertion is that adoption of the = SLAPP model =0A= for CAPWAP
would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired =0A= from
standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and =0A= widely
interoperable products.

 -Bob

Bob = O'Hara
Cisco =0A= Systems - WNBU

Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
Mobile: +1 408 218 =0A= 4025

_______________________________________________
Capwap = mailing =0A= list
Capwap@frascone.com
http://mail.fra= scone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

=0A= =0A= =0A= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59817.A427C559-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 06:53:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Gs2-00041r-GP for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:53:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA04369 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC519204F2; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEED51FE14; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:53:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387F31FE14 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout1.bayarea.net (smtpout1.BAYAREA.NET [209.128.95.10]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9F41FC7B for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell4.bayarea.net (shell4.bayarea.net [209.128.82.1]) by smtpout1.bayarea.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j73AqBo5032706; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:52:11 -0700 Received: from shell4.bayarea.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell4.bayarea.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j73Aq6xU002983; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:52:06 -0700 Received: from localhost (dperkins@localhost) by shell4.bayarea.net (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id j73Aq5GZ002977; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:52:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: shell4.bayarea.net: dperkins owned process doing -bs From: "David T. Perkins" X-Sender: dperkins@shell4.bayarea.net To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification In-Reply-To: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC6870BF@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:52:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) HI, So, following the logic of the below, when does a new code release by the WTP vendor require a recertification and new sticker? On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote: > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about the > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he was > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would like > to discuss this further on the list. > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code is > not from the entity that received the original certification for the > device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, > third party code. > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also be > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon vendors. > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory > certification with every AC vendor. > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. > Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for an > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. It > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer sufficient > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. > It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model > numbers. > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry for > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number of > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely > interoperable products. > > -Bob Regards, /david t. perkins _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 07:28:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0HPx-0007Fs-Ji for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:28:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA06171 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5AF204F2; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443CB20450; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:28:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBAB20450 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C00A1FE14 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2005 04:27:56 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,163,1120460400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="202370811:sNHT47688744" Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j73BRqqK015941; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:27:52 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5981E.62C52093" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA28@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWX+1qMHCzB1pLpRnCX4GaPRp5rqQAIs9rQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 11:27:52.0773 (UTC) FILETIME=[63065F50:01C5981E] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:27:50 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5981E.62C52093 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) =20 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5981E.62C52093 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two = modes of=20 operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), = and
2. Split MAC (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two modes. If = the group=20 feels more would be required, we should understand the application and = use=20 cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the=20 problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, = 2005 12:17=20 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = Split-MAC=20 with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing in=20 the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the = WTP and=20 the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren’s = slide says “local=20 MAC with local bridging”, but this was really a typo and should = have read,=20 according to Darren, “split MAC with local bridging”). = This mode is not=20 defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this = mode=20 really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members = presented a=20 clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would = be even=20 better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a = mode is=20 meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5981E.62C52093-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 07:39:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0HaY-0003rc-UJ for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:39:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA06896 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C381D205FE; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8C520450; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:39:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CF720450 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1ADFE1FE14 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 66089 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 11:38:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO MICHAELV-LT.wavecompass.com) (mvakulenko@212.179.88.120 with login) by smtp110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 11:38:40 -0000 Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803133302.05f52eb0@pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" From: Michael Vakulenko Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Cc: , In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA28@xmb-sjc-235.amer.ci sco.com> References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA28@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_275018345==.ALT" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:38:23 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) --=====================_275018345==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:27 PM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: >I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the >protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: >1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and >2. Split MAC (tunneled) I don't recall that taxonomy draft define that split MAC must be limited to remote bridging. It in fact says that different vendors use different approaches. -- Michael V. www.WaveCompass.com > >I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more >would be required, we should understand the application and use >cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. > > >Pat Calhoun >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >Cisco Systems > > > >---------- >From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] >On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com >Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM >To: capwap@frascone.com >Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP > >During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren >and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a >mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data >traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with >local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, >according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is >not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what >this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team >members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode >was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG >discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is >required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol. > >Thanks > >partha > > --=====================_275018345==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id HAA06896 At 02:27 PM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:
I agree with P= artha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and
2. Split MAC (tunneled)

I don't recall that taxonomy draft define that split MAC must be limited to remote bridging. It in fact says that different vendors use different approaches.

-- Michael V.
         www.WaveCompass.com


 
I think we sho= uld stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [ mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren=92s slide says =93local MAC with local bridging=94, but this was really a typ= o and should have read, according to Darren, =93split MAC with local bridging=94). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.

Thanks

partha

 
--=====================_275018345==.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 07:48:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0HjF-0000EU-7d for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:48:09 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07493 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5FE206C9; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B81204BE; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:48:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AEE204E7 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DA91FE14 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2005 04:47:07 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j73Bl6JL029623; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:47:06 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA29@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWYGZNkPM9a0cpxTiqbqnBOEnrmbgABnxag From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "David T. Perkins" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 11:47:06.0446 (UTC) FILETIME=[12AAE6E0:01C59821] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:43:12 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > So, following the logic of the below, when does a new code=20 > release by the WTP vendor require a recertification and new sticker? In certain cases, the device needs to be re-certified, but the sticker remains. It is one thing to upgrade your code. It is something completely different to have a=20 foreign entity load their code on your Aps. How do you know whether that AP will follow geo-political regulatory restrictions? I realize the group would prefer to deal with technical issues, but creating a standard that does not allow a vendor to implement it in a legal way is something we must consider within CAPWAP. PatC _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 07:48:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Hjd-0000O7-2P for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:48:33 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07503 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFEA1FE14; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023E3206D3; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:48:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6F01FE14 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C4A204BE for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2005 04:47:08 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j73Bl7JL029645; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:47:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59821.12F88949" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA2A@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWYIAC7Z/pMzPqgSIKUrSbVOhF4nAAAJE2A From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Vakulenko" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 11:47:07.0227 (UTC) FILETIME=[132212B0:01C59821] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:43:57 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59821.12F88949 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Note I stated the "taxonomy recommendations" draft - not the taxonomy draft that includes all possible variants. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Michael Vakulenko Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:38 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Cc: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 At 02:27 PM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: =09 I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) I don't recall that taxonomy draft define that split MAC must be limited to remote bridging. It in fact says that different vendors use different approaches. =09 -- Michael V. www.WaveCompass.com =09 =09 =09 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 =09 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 =09 =09 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [ mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com ] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com =09 Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM =09 To: capwap@frascone.com =09 Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 =09 =09 Thanks =09 =09 partha =09 =09 =09 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59821.12F88949 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Note I stated the "taxonomy recommendations" = draft - not=20 the taxonomy draft that includes all possible = variants.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Michael=20 Vakulenko
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:38 = AM
To: Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou)
Cc: partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

At 02:27 PM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote:
I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines = two=20 modes of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and
2. = Split MAC=20 (tunneled)

I don't recall that taxonomy draft = define=20 that split MAC must be limited to remote bridging. It in fact says = that=20 different vendors use different approaches.

-- Michael=20 V.
         = www.WaveCompass.com



I think we should stick to those two modes. = If the=20 group feels more would be required, we should understand the = application and=20 use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the=20 problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, = Wireless=20 Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 


From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com [=20 mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the=20 WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing=20 in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split = between the=20 WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP = (Darren’s slide=20 says “local MAC with local bridging”, but this was = really a typo and=20 should have read, according to Darren, “split MAC with local = bridging”).=20 This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we = were not=20 sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the = eval team=20 members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a = mode was=20 required. It would be even better if we could also get WG=20 discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is = required=20 to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.

Thanks

partha


 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C59821.12F88949-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 07:56:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Hr0-0003Jy-LA for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:56:10 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07732 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:56:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EAA206CA; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FE0204E7; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:56:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7920204E7 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3BB71FE14 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2005 04:55:29 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j73BtPul028955; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:55:28 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA2D@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Thread-Index: AcWW0J/Q5Qmt2XwkRuK9DQjbLy//HQAowxawAAV+lXAAG9v/MAAKPTNw From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Saravanan Govindan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 11:55:28.0517 (UTC) FILETIME=[3DECDB50:01C59822] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:55:25 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saravanan, I think I follow you up until: > Next, for each new terminal, the WiCoP Terminal Addition message maps it to a particular logical group over=20 > the wireless medium segment, which in turn was earlier mapped to a corresponding logical group over the=20 > switching segment.=20 I don't understand how the Terminal Addition message ends up creating the mapping back to the TunnelID. Again, I know I'm just missing something in the spec, so your patience is appreciated. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Saravanan Govindan [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:05 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting >=20 > Pat, >=20 > The WiCoP Configuration Data message configures the WTP. This=20 > provides the WTP with information on logical group=20 > establishment on the wireless medium segment (in the current=20 > draft, 'BSSID'). I want to note that there are different=20 > possible implementations for logical groups over the wireless=20 > medium segment, including "identity-based".=20 >=20 > The Configuration Data messages then maps the logical groups=20 > over the wireless medium segment to those over the switched=20 > segment. So for an indentity-based logical group over the=20 > wireless medium segment, there will be a corresponding=20 > group/tunnel over the switching segment. > BSSID-TunnelID (now GroupMap-ID) provides the link to the=20 > tunnels (e.g. > VLANs) established by the AC.=20 >=20 > This covers the WTP configuration for logical groups.=20 >=20 > Next, for each new terminal, the WiCoP Terminal Addition=20 > message maps it to a particular logical group over the=20 > wireless medium segment, which in turn was earlier mapped to=20 > a corresponding logical group over the switching segment.=20 >=20 > So, WiCoP does indeed comply to the Logical Groups objective=20 > in that it allows for consistent separation of logical groups=20 > across both wireless medium and switching segments.=20 >=20 > I hope this helps clarify WiCoP's operations in terms of=20 > logical groups. >=20 >=20 > Saravanan >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:16 AM > > To: Saravanan Govindan; capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting > >=20 > > Saravanan, > >=20 > > I was basing my information on the response during the WiCOP=20 > > presentation, so I apologize if I was incorrect. However, I=20 > read the=20 > > sections you list below and I still don't see how WiCOP=20 > provides this=20 > > function. > >=20 > > From my understanding, there is a Configuration Data=20 > message that is=20 > > sent from the AC to the WTP. This message may include the=20 > > BSSID-TunnelID information in the Config-WTP-Data message element,=20 > > which includes a tunnelID that I believe the AC uses for bridging=20 > > purposes. However, I believe that this information is sent=20 > to the WTP=20 > > during the creation of the SSID (I am making this=20 > assumption since it=20 > > includes such information such as beacon times). > >=20 > > However, the WiCOP protocol also includes the Terminal Addition=20 > > message, which only incudes the Terminal Data message element. My=20 > > understanding is that the message is exchanged between the=20 > AC and WTP=20 > > (direction depends upon whether split or local MAC is used) when a=20 > > station is being granted access to the WTP. This message=20 > element does=20 > > not include any VLAN or TunnelID information. > >=20 > > So perhaps the way the protocol would work is that the AC=20 > would send a=20 > > new Conf-WTP-Data immediately followed by a=20 > Terminal-Addition message,=20 > > but if so I wonder what happens to all of the other terminals=20 > > associated with the BSSID that were assigned to a different=20 > TunnelID.=20 > > I would expect a new BSSID-TunnelID would cause all users=20 > on the BSSID=20 > > to change, no? > >=20 > > One more thing that I am not seeing is how the AC sends=20 > specific VLAN=20 > > information to the WTP when a terminal is granted access=20 > without any=20 > > user data tunneling. I would have expected some form of a=20 > VLAN ID in=20 > > the Terminal-Data Response, but the current spec only seems=20 > to include=20 > > a Result field. > >=20 > > I'm probably just missing something, so your help is appreciated. > >=20 > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Saravanan Govindan > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:18 AM > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting > > >=20 > > > Pat, > > >=20 > > > The WiCoP authors appreciate your thoughts on WiCoP but they are=20 > > > incorrect. As I mentioned earlier regarding Puneet's > > question, WiCoP > > > "does" allow for different forms of logical groups. This is > > included > > > in the descriptions of Conf-WTP-Data and its operations=20 > in Sections > > > 5.2.2 and 6.4.1. The WiCoP tunnels mentioned in the > > description covers > > > various types of logical groups over the switching segment. > > >=20 > > > For the case of "Identity Based Networking", WiCoP simply=20 > needs to=20 > > > assign a terminal to an identity-based logical group > > > (VLAN) over the switching segment using the Terminal-Data message=20 > > > element. The BSSID-TunnelID (now renamed to > > > 'GroupMap-ID') provides the mapping between logical=20 > groups over the=20 > > > wireless medium segment (any type of virtual AP) and over the=20 > > > switching segment (any type of tunnel). > > >=20 > > > Also, we need to remember that the Logical Groups Objective > > requires > > > that a CAPWAP protocol be able to manage in terms of consistent=20 > > > logical groups - covering both the switching and wireless medium=20 > > > segments. So I think WiCoP does this best given the GroupMap-ID=20 > > > functionality. > > >=20 > > > Saravanan > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > =20 > > > =20 > > > 4. Compliance to the "Logical Groups" objective > > >=20 > > > While I recognize that this point was raised at > > the last minute, and > > > therefore was not included in the evaluation team's review. > > > This recent comments raised by Richard Gee make it clear > > that not all > > > implementations comply with this objective. > > > Specifically, most implementations do not specify how to > > map locally > > > bridged traffic on a Local MAC approach to a specific VLAN. WiCop=20 > > > includes the basic capabilities, but does not allow for "Identity=20 > > > Based Networking", which is typical in most products today > > (meaning a > > > user is mapped to a specific VLAN based on its authorization=20 > > > information, not as a default BSSID policy). LWAPP includes this=20 > > > information and is therefore in complete compliance with the=20 > > > objectives. > > >=20 > >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 08:40:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0IXc-0001Zt-I5 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:40:16 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA11465 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46363206CE; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FB5204E7; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:40:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925BB204E7 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gwo2.mbox.net (gateout02.mbox.net [165.212.64.22]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A671FE14 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gateout02.mbox.net (gateout02.mbox.net [165.212.64.22]) by gwo2.mbox.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 381281641AA; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:39:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateout02.mbox.net [165.212.64.22] by gateout02.mbox.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.17K) with ESMTP id 736JHcmnA0429Mo2; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:39:26 GMT Received: from gw2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET [165.212.116.254] by gateout02.mbox.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.21U); Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:39:26 GMT X-USANET-Source: 165.212.116.254 IN bhandaru@nexthop.com gw2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET X-USANET-MsgId: XID592JHcmnA3592Xo2 Received: from VS4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET ([10.116.208.141]) by gw2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:39:25 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7232.53 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <7ADC90A5E95BA74DA5CA5A6C390D5305B38409@VS4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies thread-index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxAAAFRzaAABsGM0A== From: "Nehru Bhandaru" To: "Yuval Cohen" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 12:39:25.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[61F42070:01C59828] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: 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SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:15:23 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA35@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWXcUENQi0NB/SxQti6wYKGiXI9RQAFxzaQAAknynAAEFi/YAAEWSvwAAin/jA= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Yuval Cohen" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 13:15:23.0001 (UTC) FILETIME=[67A90E90:01C5982D] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:15:22 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Pat, > As I indicated below, there are cases where local AP is=20 > implemented and in addition there is small deployment=20 > scenarios, will not really burden the CPU. Also, a packet=20 > doesn't need to be sent per each data packet but rather only=20 > when a threshold is met How do you define an RF threshold, and given the wide variations that can exist between packets in most environments, how do you guarantee that this doesn't negatively impact the WTP/AC performance? >=20 > But regardless, 802.3 frames seems to me to be the more=20 > generic case, while 802.11 is a specific media, not related=20 > to the AC technology which is usually Ethernet. And as=20 > indicated on a different mail thread, seems that with the=20 > 802.11 frame format, LWAPP is not fully compliant with the=20 > CAPWAP objectives (supporting all wireless formats)=20 Respectfully disagree. We haven't decided how 802.16 is mapped onto the CAPWAP protocol. Therefore the LWAPP protocol allows it by being flexible in allow the native frames to be tunneled. So it does in fact comply with the standard. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 09:29:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0JJ1-0001mE-Re for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:29:12 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15733 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A017206E2; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498F9204E7; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:29:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380A2204E7 for ; 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Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:34:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15985 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F18206E4; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC28204F2; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:34:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05A2204F2 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs1.cs.huji.ac.il (cs1.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.10]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D47420261 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sands.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.200.9]) by cs1.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1E0JNC-000Bqg-6T; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:33:30 +0300 Received: from anker by sands.cs.huji.ac.il with local (Exim 4.44) id 1E0JNC-00047b-6E; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:33:30 +0300 From: Tal Anker To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" Cc: Yuval Cohen , capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies In-Reply-To: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA35@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA35@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:33:30 +0300 (IDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) wrote: > > Pat, > > As I indicated below, there are cases where local AP is > > implemented and in addition there is small deployment > > scenarios, will not really burden the CPU. Also, a packet > > doesn't need to be sent per each data packet but rather only > > when a threshold is met > > How do you define an RF threshold, and given the wide variations that > can exist between packets in most environments, how do you guarantee > that this doesn't negatively impact the WTP/AC performance? > > > > > But regardless, 802.3 frames seems to me to be the more > > generic case, while 802.11 is a specific media, not related > > to the AC technology which is usually Ethernet. And as > > indicated on a different mail thread, seems that with the > > 802.11 frame format, LWAPP is not fully compliant with the > > CAPWAP objectives (supporting all wireless formats) > Respectfully disagree. We haven't decided how 802.16 is mapped onto the > CAPWAP protocol. Therefore the LWAPP protocol allows it by being > flexible in allow the native frames to be tunneled. So it does in fact > comply with the standard. Indeed semantically this makes the LWAPP is compliant with the standard. However, it also means that when for instance an 802.16 WTP will be introduced, the AC would need to be adapted to process, in the data plane, the 802.16 native frames... I would be more concerned by the implication of this (because in many cases it would imply HW upgrade to the AC) than any other concern I've heard till now (e.g. the SW image download in the other email thread...). As was already suggested - why not supporting both modes? Sending the fames in the AC native format and not the WTP wireless native format would mean that in high probability you will only need to upgrade the AC SW and not the silicon... - Tal ===================================================================== Tal Anker, PhD. DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure Systems Group. The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel. _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 09:58:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Jl6-0000Js-Q4 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:58:14 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA17794 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB40206E8; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA541204F2; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:58:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10B9204F2 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890C820261 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2005 06:57:04 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j73Dv0ul002983; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:57:04 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA43@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxAAAFRzaAABsGM0AAC+h4g From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Nehru Bhandaru" , "Yuval Cohen" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 13:57:04.0658 (UTC) FILETIME=[3AC39F20:01C59833] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:57:03 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U28gdGhpcyB3b3VsZCBiZSBhbiBhcmd1bWVudCBmb3IgbG9jYWwgYnJpZGdpbmcgYW5kIHR1bm5l 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(8.11.6p2/3.7W/bluejays) with ESMTP id j73EoHB12147; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:50:17 +0900 (JST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD4B22B0@pslexc01.psl.local> Thread-topic: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Thread-index: AcWW0J/Q5Qmt2XwkRuK9DQjbLy//HQAowxawAAV+lXAAG9v/MAAKPTNwAAIwBrA= From: "Saravanan Govindan" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:50:14 +0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat,=20 The mapping to the switching segment tunnel is accomplished with the WiCoP Configuration Data message. The Terminal Addition message assigns terminals to that mapping. Specifically, the 'BSSID' information item of the Terminal Addition message assigns the terminal to a logical group.=20 I hope this helps. Saravanan > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:55 PM > To: Saravanan Govindan; capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting >=20 > Saravanan, >=20 > I think I follow you up until: > > Next, for each new terminal, the WiCoP Terminal Addition=20 > message maps > it to a particular logical group over=20 > > the wireless medium segment, which in turn was earlier mapped to a > corresponding logical group over the=20 > > switching segment.=20 >=20 > I don't understand how the Terminal Addition message ends up=20 > creating the mapping back to the TunnelID. >=20 > Again, I know I'm just missing something in the spec, so your=20 > patience is appreciated. >=20 > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems >=20 > =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Saravanan Govindan=20 > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:05 AM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting > >=20 > > Pat, > >=20 > > The WiCoP Configuration Data message configures the WTP.=20 > This provides=20 > > the WTP with information on logical group establishment on the=20 > > wireless medium segment (in the current draft, 'BSSID'). I want to=20 > > note that there are different possible implementations for logical=20 > > groups over the wireless medium segment, including "identity-based". > >=20 > > The Configuration Data messages then maps the logical=20 > groups over the=20 > > wireless medium segment to those over the switched segment.=20 > So for an=20 > > indentity-based logical group over the wireless medium=20 > segment, there=20 > > will be a corresponding group/tunnel over the switching segment. > > BSSID-TunnelID (now GroupMap-ID) provides the link to the tunnels=20 > > (e.g. > > VLANs) established by the AC.=20 > >=20 > > This covers the WTP configuration for logical groups.=20 > >=20 > > Next, for each new terminal, the WiCoP Terminal Addition=20 > message maps=20 > > it to a particular logical group over the wireless medium segment,=20 > > which in turn was earlier mapped to a corresponding logical=20 > group over=20 > > the switching segment. > >=20 > > So, WiCoP does indeed comply to the Logical Groups=20 > objective in that=20 > > it allows for consistent separation of logical groups across both=20 > > wireless medium and switching segments. > >=20 > > I hope this helps clarify WiCoP's operations in terms of logical=20 > > groups. > >=20 > >=20 > > Saravanan > >=20 > >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:16 AM > > > To: Saravanan Govindan; capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting > > >=20 > > > Saravanan, > > >=20 > > > I was basing my information on the response during the WiCOP=20 > > > presentation, so I apologize if I was incorrect. However, I > > read the > > > sections you list below and I still don't see how WiCOP > > provides this > > > function. > > >=20 > > > From my understanding, there is a Configuration Data > > message that is > > > sent from the AC to the WTP. This message may include the=20 > > > BSSID-TunnelID information in the Config-WTP-Data message=20 > element,=20 > > > which includes a tunnelID that I believe the AC uses for bridging=20 > > > purposes. However, I believe that this information is sent > > to the WTP > > > during the creation of the SSID (I am making this > > assumption since it > > > includes such information such as beacon times). > > >=20 > > > However, the WiCOP protocol also includes the Terminal Addition=20 > > > message, which only incudes the Terminal Data message element. My=20 > > > understanding is that the message is exchanged between the > > AC and WTP > > > (direction depends upon whether split or local MAC is=20 > used) when a=20 > > > station is being granted access to the WTP. This message > > element does > > > not include any VLAN or TunnelID information. > > >=20 > > > So perhaps the way the protocol would work is that the AC > > would send a > > > new Conf-WTP-Data immediately followed by a > > Terminal-Addition message, > > > but if so I wonder what happens to all of the other terminals=20 > > > associated with the BSSID that were assigned to a different > > TunnelID.=20 > > > I would expect a new BSSID-TunnelID would cause all users > > on the BSSID > > > to change, no? > > >=20 > > > One more thing that I am not seeing is how the AC sends > > specific VLAN > > > information to the WTP when a terminal is granted access > > without any > > > user data tunneling. I would have expected some form of a > > VLAN ID in > > > the Terminal-Data Response, but the current spec only seems > > to include > > > a Result field. > > >=20 > > > I'm probably just missing something, so your help is appreciated. > > >=20 > > > Pat Calhoun > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > >=20 > > > =20 > > >=20 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Saravanan Govindan > > > [mailto:Saravanan.Govindan@sg.panasonic.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:18 AM > > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting > > > >=20 > > > > Pat, > > > >=20 > > > > The WiCoP authors appreciate your thoughts on WiCoP but=20 > they are=20 > > > > incorrect. As I mentioned earlier regarding Puneet's > > > question, WiCoP > > > > "does" allow for different forms of logical groups. This is > > > included > > > > in the descriptions of Conf-WTP-Data and its operations > > in Sections > > > > 5.2.2 and 6.4.1. The WiCoP tunnels mentioned in the > > > description covers > > > > various types of logical groups over the switching segment. > > > >=20 > > > > For the case of "Identity Based Networking", WiCoP simply > > needs to > > > > assign a terminal to an identity-based logical group > > > > (VLAN) over the switching segment using the=20 > Terminal-Data message=20 > > > > element. The BSSID-TunnelID (now renamed to > > > > 'GroupMap-ID') provides the mapping between logical > > groups over the > > > > wireless medium segment (any type of virtual AP) and over the=20 > > > > switching segment (any type of tunnel). > > > >=20 > > > > Also, we need to remember that the Logical Groups Objective > > > requires > > > > that a CAPWAP protocol be able to manage in terms of consistent=20 > > > > logical groups - covering both the switching and=20 > wireless medium=20 > > > > segments. So I think WiCoP does this best given the GroupMap-ID=20 > > > > functionality. > > > >=20 > > > > Saravanan > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > =20 > > > > =20 > > > > =20 > > > > 4. Compliance to the "Logical Groups" objective > > > >=20 > > > > While I recognize that this point was raised at > > > the last minute, and > > > > therefore was not included in the evaluation team's review. > > > > This recent comments raised by Richard Gee make it clear > > > that not all > > > > implementations comply with this objective. > > > > Specifically, most implementations do not specify how to > > > map locally > > > > bridged traffic on a Local MAC approach to a specific=20 > VLAN. WiCop=20 > > > > includes the basic capabilities, but does not allow for=20 > "Identity=20 > > > > Based Networking", which is typical in most products today > > > (meaning a > > > > user is mapped to a specific VLAN based on its authorization=20 > > > > information, not as a default BSSID policy). LWAPP=20 > includes this=20 > > > > information and is therefore in complete compliance with the=20 > > > > objectives. > > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 11:13:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Kvd-0000cM-LR for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:13:09 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24568 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A32206D9; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A6A20270; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:13:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6097120270 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B50F20261 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2005 08:11:59 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,163,1120460400"; d="scan'208"; a="328582284:sNHT176823698" Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j73FBwJL021399; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:11:58 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA61@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Thread-Index: AcWYEXVqtpHmKmeQTqCTN31dZPeypAAJbqSA From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dan Harkins" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 15:11:58.0334 (UTC) FILETIME=[B13429E0:01C5983D] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:11:58 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, Putting aside all of the various accusations, both personal and to my company, let me at least address the real issues here. In order to support 802.11k, the AC sends the relevant ACTION frame through the WTP to the STA. The STA will respond, which will make it back to the AC. There is no need to involve the WTP in this manner. If data needs to be added to a beacon, then you are correct that a change is required. We could simply address this by using a generic "Beacon Data" which is sent from the AC to the WTP. I believe that all (or nearly all) protocols support a download mechanism. The primary differences are how we view this download mechanism as providing value. While I view this as a method for AP firmware to be upgraded by the manufacturer, you see this as a method to allow for proprietary protocols to be pushed on the WTP. The issues raised here are real and cannot be ignored. If a customer (or vendor) wants to hijack APs with their own firmware and deal with the legal consequences, then so be it, but I don't believe that the IETF needs to get involved or condone this behavior. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 15:37:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0P3B-0004wT-Ax for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:37:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09283 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D35B20368; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FEC1FF1F; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:37:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695841FF1F for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gwo1.mbox.net (gateout01.mbox.net [165.212.64.21]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 304BC1FE17 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net (gateout01.mbox.net [165.212.64.21]) by gwo1.mbox.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B4E712D336; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:36:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net [165.212.64.21] by gateout01.mbox.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.17K) with ESMTP id 210JHcTKq0017Mo1; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:36:16 GMT Received: from gw1.EXCHPROD.USA.NET [165.212.116.254] by gateout01.mbox.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.21U); Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:36:16 GMT X-USANET-Source: 165.212.116.254 IN bhandaru@nexthop.com gw1.EXCHPROD.USA.NET X-USANET-MsgId: XID136JHcTKq3500Xo1 Received: from VS4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET ([10.116.208.141]) by gw1.EXCHPROD.USA.NET with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:36:15 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7232.53 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <7ADC90A5E95BA74DA5CA5A6C390D5305B387B0@VS4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies thread-index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxAAAFRzaAABsGM0AAC+h4gAAupLbA= From: "Nehru Bhandaru" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Yuval Cohen" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 19:36:15.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[9CEA39A0:01C59862] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:36:03 -0600 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpJbiByZXZpZXdpbmcgdGhlIHRheG9ub215IGRvY3VtZW50ICh2NikgaW4gdGhlIGxpZ2h0IG9m IHRoaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiwgaXQgc2VlbXMgdGhhdCB0aGlzIG9wdGlvbiBkb2VzIG5vdCBhbGxv dywgZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIDgwMi4xMSBtZ210IGZyYW1lcyB0byB0ZXJtaW5hdGUgYXQgQUMgd2l0 aCA4MDIuMyBpbiB0aGUgZGF0YSBwbGFuZS4gQXMgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIG9ubHkgU3BsaXQgTUFD IGFsbG93cyA4MDIuMTEgbWdtdCBmcmFtZXMgdG8gdGVybWluYXRlIG9uIHRoZSBBQy4gU3VjaCBh IGNvbWJpbmF0aW9uIHdvdWxkIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCBiZWNhdXNlIDgwMi4xMSBmcmFtZSBjYW4gZWFz aWx5IGJlIHByb2Nlc3NlZCBpbiBzb2Z0d2FyZSBpbiB0aGUgY29udHJvbCBwYXRoLg0KDQpBbm90 aGVyIHdheSB0byB0aGluayBhYm91dCB0aGlzIGlzc3VlLCB3aXRob3V0IGNoYW5naW5nIHRoZSBz ZW1hbnRpY3Mgb2YgU3BsaXQvTG9jYWwgTUFDIHRlcm1pbm9sb2d5LCBpcyB0byB0cmVhdCBjb250 cm9sIGFuZCBkYXRhIHBsYW5lcyBzZXBhcmF0ZWx5LCBpbiBsaW5lIHdpdGggdGhlIENBUFdBUCBz ZXBhcmF0aW9uIG9mIGNvbnRyb2wvZGF0YSBvYmplY3RpdmUsIGFuZCBhbGxvdyBTcGxpdCBNQUMg 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Zm8vY2Fwd2FwDQogICAgPiAgICAgCXBqWFgmXxx3aG1+cnIrLXfGqQ0KICAgID4gCWp+cnINCiAg ICA+DQo= _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 16:43:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Q52-0003aI-Ej for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:43:12 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18693 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9045120450; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A21F20368; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:43:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D302D20368 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from typhoon.trangosoft.com (unknown [209.82.51.154]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837C8202AF for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phantom-out.trangosoft.com ([136.157.233.22]) by 136.157.233.32 with trend_isnt_name_B; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:44:01 -0400 Received: from troll3.trangosoft.com (troll3.trangosoft.com [136.157.233.13]) by phantom-out.trangosoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0CD2502D; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by troll3.trangosoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:37:55 -0400 Message-ID: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B60132211DF@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> From: Michael Montemurro To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , Nehru Bhandaru , Yuval Cohen , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:42:32 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA18693 I would agree with this using 802.3 for local MAC and 802.xx for split MA= C would be a reasonable compromise to this issue. Mike Michael Montemurro Director, Advanced Technology and Standards Chantry Networks, A Siemens Company 1900 Minnesota Ct, Suite 125 Mississauga, ON, CANADA. T: 905-363-6413 F: 905-567-9900 E: michael.montemurro@siemens.com =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Sent: August 3, 2005 9:57 AM > To: Nehru Bhandaru; Yuval Cohen; Bob O'Hara (boohara);=20 > capwap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless=20 > technologies >=20 > So this would be an argument for local bridging and tunneling=20 > of 802.3 frames in local mode. I think that would be a good=20 > compromise. I believe that changing the basic fundamentals of=20 > Split MAC, which means *all* AP functions are performed in=20 > the AC (possibly including encryption), would be a mistake. >=20 > The taxonomy recommendation already recommends that Local MAC=20 > be the "mandatory" mode, but if the WG agrees, we could make=20 > changes to allow for tunneling of traffic in an 802.3 mode. >=20 > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems >=20 > =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Nehru Bhandaru > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:39 AM > > To: Yuval Cohen; Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless=20 > > technologies > >=20 > >=20 > > All, > >=20 > > IMHO supporting the case where 802.11 <-> 802.3 conversion=20 > is done at=20 > > the WTP and 802.3 is transported to AC is important to leverage=20 > > existing silicon in the data path at the AC. This can be=20 > accomplished=20 > > in many ways in CAPWAP - one option that seems to be under=20 > debate is=20 > > to consider this as a mode of Split MAC. > >=20 > > Another, something I like better and not very complicated, is to=20 > > consider this an Local MAC option where the integration/portal=20 > > function of 802.11 AP is at the AC. With this model, LWAPP control=20 > > protocol (in the Local MAC case) could negotiate the=20 > encapsulation for=20 > > the data path to the portal. This could be GRE, LWAPP(L2/L3) or=20 > > whatever - with inner payload of 802.3. RSSI/SNR/etc values can be=20 > > obtained from the encapsulation header... > >=20 > > Split MAC could carry 802.11 only in the data path. > >=20 > > - Nehru > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > Behalf Of Yuval Cohen > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:55 AM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > =20 > > Bob, > > the discussion is not only about local MAC but also about split=20 > > MAC. The > > local MAC was given just as an example. > > For reasons provided before, I see also a lot of sense in using=20 > > 802.3 > > frames also in the split MAC case, where you do the distribution > > function (based on 802.3 frame switching) within the AC > > Since in any case you need to add the 802.11 specific=20 > info (like=20 > > RSSI), > > I'd rather see it within the LWAPP tunnel header so I=20 > can choose=20 > > if to > > take it from there or not and keep the frame 802.3.=20 > This will give=20 > > the > > most flexibility for those implementations that need the extra=20 > > info and > > for those looking into simple implementations not requiring=20 > > processing > > the extra info or allowing processing in the WTP > > =20 > > I would like to hear more opinions on the WG mailing list as to=20 > > how > > important it is to support this also in split MAC case > > =20 > > Yuval > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > Behalf Of Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:49 AM > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > =20 > > I guess I fail to see what this controversy is all about.=20 > > If you want > > to forward 802.3 frames from the WTP, you are using the=20 > local MAC > > variant supported by LWAPP. In fact, that is what the taxonomy=20 > > draft > > specifies. > > =20 > > If all you have in your AC is Ethernet switch silicon=20 > on the data=20 > > path, > > this is the only reasonable implementation. To say=20 > that another=20 > > option > > is necessary to support conversion of 802.11 frames to > > 802.3 frames in > > the WTP in split MAC mode, separate the 802.11-specific=20 > > information and > > forward the 802.3 frames and separated 802.11 information about=20 > > those > > forwarded 802.3 frames in LWAPP packets is ridiculous. =20 > > Just because you > > have a hammer, doesn't mean that everything else in the=20 > world is a=20 > > nail. > > =20 > > It seems that this is a tremendous complication to the=20 > AC, which=20 > > now > > needs to correlate this separated information. This correlation > > operation was not necessary when the 802.11 frames were=20 > forwarded > > directly, since the frames and their information=20 > arrived whole and > > together. > > =20 > > In order to reduce the computing load on the AC to correlate the > > separated information, the WTP could send only summarized=20 > > information. > > Of course, this reduces the amount of information=20 > available to the=20 > > AC, > > without justification. > > =20 > > -Bob > > =20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > Behalf Of Michael Vakulenko > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:27 AM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Cc: Yuval Cohen; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > =20 > > Pat, > > =20 > > Your question is independent of whether CAPWAP tunnels 802.3 or > > 802.11 frame. Signal strength field does not present in > > 802.11 frame > > headers. Having tunnel 802.11 frames doesn't solve the problem. > > =20 > > Thanks, > > =20 > > -- Michael V. > > =20 > > At 08:46 AM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: > > >Yuval, > > > > > >I'd like to comment on your point about having the WTP process=20 > > the > > >information, and provide a digested version of the=20 > information.=20 > > How > > >would you propose that the WTP represent the changes in signal=20 > > strength > > >(which occur in real time) to the AC - and how=20 > frequent would you > > >propose these updates be made? Would this be a packet=20 > that hits=20 > > the > > >control processor, because if so, then I have some serious=20 > > scaling > > >concerns. > > > > > >That said, I think that in the end we need the=20 > evaluation team to=20 > > make > > a > > >recommendation on a protocol, and then let the WG=20 > decide. If the=20 > > WG > > >decides that two separate protocol formats would be=20 > better than=20 > > one, > > >then we can go down that path (and make sure that we make one=20 > > mandatory > > >to implement). > > > > > >Pat Calhoun > > >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > >Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Yuval Cohen [mailto:YuvalC@marvell.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:18 PM > > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > > > Cc: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, the > > > > data path in some cases is realized in silicon. Processing > > > > 802.11 frames may add to complexity and cost. > > > > > > > > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the WTP to > > > > send the 802.11 frame, as in the case of centralized crypto > > > > (although that may conflict with HCCA) but for those > > > > implementations not requiring that and in=20 > particular local AP > > > > case, there is no real need for 802.11 frame=20 > reaching the AC. > > > > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be processed > > > > within the WTP and provided to the AC if needed via the > > > > control plane, possibly after some digestion. > > > > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple > > > > and will enable a large install base of existing switches to > > > > become AC with just software upgrade. This will aid wide > > > > adoption of LDAP. > > > > > > > > > > > > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the frame > > > > format to 802.11 only but rather allow two formats, either > > > > 802.11 or 802.3. > > > > > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun > > (pacalhou) > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > > > > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > Tal, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the e-mail. > > > > > > > > I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue > > > > that the AC will have to be modified to support a new > > > > technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is > > > > really no more difficult than the control path. If an > > > > implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then > > > > it is limiting its market. > > > > > > > > I would argue that include "technology specific" information > > > > piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to > > > > achieve, because we cannot predict what this information > > > > would end up being. For instance, > > > > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has=20 > something > > > > different (and has additional information). So how would you > > > > map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with=20 > > 802.16s? > > > > > > > > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then > > > > this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, > > > > certain features will require changes to the data path, for > > > > instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption > > > > requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e > > > > requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. > > > > > > > > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly=20 > believe that > > > > transporting the native frame provides the AC with=20 > all of the > > > > information for the specific technology, and allows it to > > > > provide differentiated services based on the information > > > > present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would > > > > be in this piggy backed header. > > > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > > > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > > > > CAPWAP there > > > > > seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully > > > > achieved with the > > > > > current LWAPP spec. > > > > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames=20 > > would be > > > > > encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > > > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > > > > carried in the > > > > > .11 frame available to the AC. > > > > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > > > frames; an > > > > > operation that will probably be done in some HW component. > > > > My concern > > > > > is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable > > > > not only to > > > > > 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a result=20 > > the > > LWAPP > > > > > should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as it > > > > indeed states > > > > > in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However=20 > mandating that=20 > > the > > > > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > > > > original format > > > > > would make this objective harder to achieve... When a new=20 > > wireless > > > > > media type would be introduced, the AC would have to be=20 > > somehow > > > > > adapted to process the data frames (not only the control > > > > frames that > > > > > can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > > > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP > > > > then an NP SW > > > > > upgrade). > > > > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for > > > > sending the data > > > > > frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP is > > > > connected to the > > > > > AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP and to > > > > send it to > > > > > the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet=20 > frames... This way > > > > when a new > > > > > wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs > > > > to be done > > > > > is updating the SW of the AC. > > > > > > > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in=20 > > the > > > > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and > > > > be sent to > > > > > the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > > > > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the=20 > > original > > > > > 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to=20 > convert to the AC=20 > > media > > > > > type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future wireless > > > > technologies" > > > > > objective... > > > > > > > > > > - Tal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > > > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure=20 > > Systems > > Group. > > > > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > > > University > > > > > of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Capwap mailing list > > >Capwap@frascone.com > > >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > =20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > pjXX&_=1Cwhm~rr+-w=C6=A9 > > j~rr > >=20 > pjXX&_=1Cwhm~rr+-w=C6=A9 >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 03 18:32:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0RmZ-000893-Fy for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:32:16 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24125 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9F71FE17; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C672F202AB; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:32:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F07A202AB for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:31:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maili.marvell.com (host2.marvell.com [65.219.4.2]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7ABD1FE17 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rdlnexch01.marvell.com (rdlnexch01.marvell.com [10.6.1.9]) by maili.marvell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558CA2714; Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies thread-index: AcWYbAUYg5FgQIcMThKUAG25V2JDWwADt3vQ From: "Yuval Cohen" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Nehru Bhandaru" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:31:09 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWdyZWUuIFRoaXMgbG9va3MgZmxleGlibGUgZW5vdWdoDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2Fn ZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBjYXB3YXAtYWRtaW5AZnJhc2NvbmUuY29tIFttYWlsdG86Y2Fwd2FwLWFk bWluQGZyYXNjb25lLmNvbV0gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIE1pY2hhZWwgTW9udGVtdXJybw0KU2VudDog V2VkbmVzZGF5LCBBdWd1c3QgMDMsIDIwMDUgMTE6NDMgUE0NClRvOiBQYXQgQ2FsaG91biAocGFj YWxob3UpOyBOZWhydSBCaGFuZGFydTsgWXV2YWwgQ29oZW47IEJvYiBPJ0hhcmEgKGJvb2hhcmEp OyBjYXB3YXBAZnJhc2NvbmUuY29tDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogW0NhcHdhcF0gY29tbWVudCBhYm91 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http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 01:03:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0Xst-0005Xc-GX for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:03:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA08440 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CEA2046E; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FED20484; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:03:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB3D20484 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp106.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp106.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.169.226]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 732AC2046E for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18673 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2005 05:02:33 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Accept-Language:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AxAybnd3zIuiCAhYsXFaSRHREhOpoZN2b43FZInE6Scy6khf+pF2OTkaq+dSv7Uhx9Fcf548zQleoAZG6yWru1mtJA4NhlRdVEcbCrHUAjWfNc4KjURhtTL5B9/vUshEx3YlOd+QRwcLJ2cdQ64BY2E8bcyXjEUxOl5fWjHciao= ; Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (behcetsarikaya@24.71.246.198 with plain) by smtp106.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2005 05:02:33 -0000 Message-ID: <42F1A160.5010901@yahoo.com> From: Behcet Sarikaya Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: capwap@frascone.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] Typos in LWAPP Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:02:24 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, In Section 2.2 on LWAPP State Machine Definition, the transitions (or state transitions) have consistently been referred to as "state"s which is certainly wrong. Here is an example: Discovery to Discovery (b): This is the state the WTP uses to determine which AC it wishes to connect to. b is certainly a transition not a state. Section is repeated in referring to the section names as in: section Section 5.2.3. There is another one on page 89 (Section 11.1.1), The WTP processes the probe request and responds with a corresponding probe response. The problem request is then forwarded to the AC for optional processing. Shouldn't the problem request be the probe request? On page 92, (see section Section 11.7.1.1. the paranthesis was not closed. In Section 11.7.1.1 there is the following sentence: An AC that wishes to update a mobile's policy on an WTP may be done by simply sending a new Add Mobile message element. ... (possibly some others). A note on the semantics, in Section 11.1 on Split MAC, two terms (verbs) that are used, forwards and tunnels with no clear definition in Section 3 on LWAPP transport. One possible interpretation is, for example, WTP sends an associate request frame as LWAPP Data Frame but AC replies with Add Mobile Request which is sent in a control frame. Is this correct interpretation? It seems not, because in some other parts, LWAPP data frame forwarding is referred to as tunneling. If a state machine for a few important aspects were defined, much of the ambiguity would be avoided. The other candidate protocols, time permitting, but for now, that's it. Regards, --behcet _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 03:55:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0aZO-0005pq-JZ for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:55:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09291 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2357E20484; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:55:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D764D20319; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:55:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7545820319 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C366820278 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j747htAE000326; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:43:59 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508040743.j747htAE000326@stout.trpz.com> To: Michael Montemurro Cc: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , Nehru Bhandaru , Yuval Cohen , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:42:32 EDT." <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B60132211DF@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-unknown" Content-ID: <324.1123141435.1@trpz.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:43:55 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So are we saying that if the integration service is performed on the WTP then you're "local MAC" regardless of any of the other non-real time functions that may be done on the AC? I'm not sure I agree with that. By the way, if the 802.1x authenticator is on the AC then I think you are by definition a split MAC. No? Dan. = On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:42:32 EDT you wrote > I would agree with this using 802.3 for local MAC and 802.xx for split M= AC > would be a reasonable compromise to this issue. > = > Mike > = > Michael Montemurro > Director, Advanced Technology and Standards > Chantry Networks, A Siemens Company > 1900 Minnesota Ct, Suite 125 > Mississauga, ON, CANADA. > T: 905-363-6413 > F: 905-567-9900 > E: michael.montemurro@siemens.com = > = > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com = > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Sent: August 3, 2005 9:57 AM > > To: Nehru Bhandaru; Yuval Cohen; Bob O'Hara (boohara); = > > capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = > > technologies > > = > > So this would be an argument for local bridging and tunneling = > > of 802.3 frames in local mode. I think that would be a good = > > compromise. I believe that changing the basic fundamentals of = > > Split MAC, which means *all* AP functions are performed in = > > the AC (possibly including encryption), would be a mistake. > > = > > The taxonomy recommendation already recommends that Local MAC = > > be the "mandatory" mode, but if the WG agrees, we could make = > > changes to allow for tunneling of traffic in an 802.3 mode. > > = > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > Cisco Systems > > = > > = > > = > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Nehru Bhandaru > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:39 AM > > > To: Yuval Cohen; Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless = > > > technologies > > > = > > > = > > > All, > > > = > > > IMHO supporting the case where 802.11 <-> 802.3 conversion = > > is done at = > > > the WTP and 802.3 is transported to AC is important to leverage = > > > existing silicon in the data path at the AC. This can be = > > accomplished = > > > in many ways in CAPWAP - one option that seems to be under = > > debate is = > > > to consider this as a mode of Split MAC. > > > = > > > Another, something I like better and not very complicated, is to = > > > consider this an Local MAC option where the integration/portal = > > > function of 802.11 AP is at the AC. With this model, LWAPP control = > > > protocol (in the Local MAC case) could negotiate the = > > encapsulation for = > > > the data path to the portal. This could be GRE, LWAPP(L2/L3) or = > > > whatever - with inner payload of 802.3. RSSI/SNR/etc values can be = > > > obtained from the encapsulation header... > > > = > > > Split MAC could carry 802.11 only in the data path. > > > = > > > - Nehru > > > = > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > > Behalf Of Yuval Cohen > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:55 AM > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > = > > > Bob, > > > the discussion is not only about local MAC but also about split = > > > MAC. The > > > local MAC was given just as an example. > > > For reasons provided before, I see also a lot of sense in using = > > > 802.3 > > > frames also in the split MAC case, where you do the distribution > > > function (based on 802.3 frame switching) within the AC > > > Since in any case you need to add the 802.11 specific = > > info (like = > > > RSSI), > > > I'd rather see it within the LWAPP tunnel header so I = > > can choose = > > > if to > > > take it from there or not and keep the frame 802.3. = > > This will give = > > > the > > > most flexibility for those implementations that need the extra = > > > info and > > > for those looking into simple implementations not requiring = > > > processing > > > the extra info or allowing processing in the WTP > > > = > > > I would like to hear more opinions on the WG mailing list as to = > > > how > > > important it is to support this also in split MAC case > > > = > > > Yuval > > > = > > > = > > > = > > > = > > > = > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > > Behalf Of Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:49 AM > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > = > > > I guess I fail to see what this controversy is all about. = > > > If you want > > > to forward 802.3 frames from the WTP, you are using the = > > local MAC > > > variant supported by LWAPP. In fact, that is what the taxonomy = > > > draft > > > specifies. > > > = > > > If all you have in your AC is Ethernet switch silicon = > > on the data = > > > path, > > > this is the only reasonable implementation. To say = > > that another = > > > option > > > is necessary to support conversion of 802.11 frames to > > > 802.3 frames in > > > the WTP in split MAC mode, separate the 802.11-specific = > > > information and > > > forward the 802.3 frames and separated 802.11 information about = > > > those > > > forwarded 802.3 frames in LWAPP packets is ridiculous. = > > > Just because you > > > have a hammer, doesn't mean that everything else in the = > > world is a = > > > nail. > > > = > > > It seems that this is a tremendous complication to the = > > AC, which = > > > now > > > needs to correlate this separated information. This correlation > > > operation was not necessary when the 802.11 frames were = > > forwarded > > > directly, since the frames and their information = > > arrived whole and > > > together. > > > = > > > In order to reduce the computing load on the AC to correlate the > > > separated information, the WTP could send only summarized = > > > information. > > > Of course, this reduces the amount of information = > > available to the = > > > AC, > > > without justification. > > > = > > > -Bob > > > = > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > > Behalf Of Michael Vakulenko > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:27 AM > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > > Cc: Yuval Cohen; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > = > > > Pat, > > > = > > > Your question is independent of whether CAPWAP tunnels 802.3 or > > > 802.11 frame. Signal strength field does not present in > > > 802.11 frame > > > headers. Having tunnel 802.11 frames doesn't solve the problem. > > > = > > > Thanks, > > > = > > > -- Michael V. > > > = > > > At 08:46 AM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: > > > >Yuval, > > > > > > > >I'd like to comment on your point about having the WTP process = > > > the > > > >information, and provide a digested version of the = > > information. = > > > How > > > >would you propose that the WTP represent the changes in signal = > > > strength > > > >(which occur in real time) to the AC - and how = > > frequent would you > > > >propose these updates be made? Would this be a packet = > > that hits = > > > the > > > >control processor, because if so, then I have some serious = > > > scaling > > > >concerns. > > > > > > > >That said, I think that in the end we need the = > > evaluation team to = > > > make > > > a > > > >recommendation on a protocol, and then let the WG = > > decide. If the = > > > WG > > > >decides that two separate protocol formats would be = > > better than = > > > one, > > > >then we can go down that path (and make sure that we make one = > > > mandatory > > > >to implement). > > > > > > > >Pat Calhoun > > > >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > > >Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Yuval Cohen [mailto:YuvalC@marvell.com] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:18 PM > > > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > > > > Cc: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, the > > > > > data path in some cases is realized in silicon. Processing > > > > > 802.11 frames may add to complexity and cost. > > > > > > > > > > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the WTP to > > > > > send the 802.11 frame, as in the case of centralized crypto > > > > > (although that may conflict with HCCA) but for those > > > > > implementations not requiring that and in = > > particular local AP > > > > > case, there is no real need for 802.11 frame = > > reaching the AC. > > > > > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be processed > > > > > within the WTP and provided to the AC if needed via the > > > > > control plane, possibly after some digestion. > > > > > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple > > > > > and will enable a large install base of existing switches to > > > > > become AC with just software upgrade. This will aid wide > > > > > adoption of LDAP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the frame > > > > > format to 802.11 only but rather allow two formats, either > > > > > 802.11 or 802.3. > > > > > > > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun > > > (pacalhou) > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > > > > > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > > > Tal, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the e-mail. > > > > > > > > > > I believe that I understand your point, but I would argue > > > > > that the AC will have to be modified to support a new > > > > > technology, and that upgrading the code in the data path is > > > > > really no more difficult than the control path. If an > > > > > implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then > > > > > it is limiting its market. > > > > > > > > > > I would argue that include "technology specific" information > > > > > piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard to > > > > > achieve, because we cannot predict what this information > > > > > would end up being. For instance, > > > > > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has = > > something > > > > > different (and has additional information). So how would you > > > > > map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match with = > > > 802.16s? > > > > > > > > > > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then > > > > > this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, > > > > > certain features will require changes to the data path, for > > > > > instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption > > > > > requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and 802.11e > > > > > requires specific quality of service queuing and policing. > > > > > > > > > > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly = > > believe that > > > > > transporting the native frame provides the AC with = > > all of the > > > > > information for the specific technology, and allows it to > > > > > provide differentiated services based on the information > > > > > present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would > > > > > be in this piggy backed header. > > > > > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > > > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > > > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > > > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > > > > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the objecives of > > > > > CAPWAP there > > > > > > seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully > > > > > achieved with the > > > > > > current LWAPP spec. > > > > > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 frames = > > > would be > > > > > > encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > > > > > The benefit from doing this is having the original info > > > > > carried in the > > > > > > .11 frame available to the AC. > > > > > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > > > > frames; an > > > > > > operation that will probably be done in some HW component. > > > > > My concern > > > > > > is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable > > > > > not only to > > > > > > 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a result = > > > the > > > LWAPP > > > > > > should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as it > > > > > indeed states > > > > > > in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However = > > mandating that = > > > the > > > > > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in their > > > > > original format > > > > > > would make this objective harder to achieve... When a new = > > > wireless > > > > > > media type would be introduced, the AC would have to be = > > > somehow > > > > > > adapted to process the data frames (not only the control > > > > > frames that > > > > > > can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > > > > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using NP > > > > > then an NP SW > > > > > > upgrade). > > > > > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for > > > > > sending the data > > > > > > frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP is > > > > > connected to the > > > > > > AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP and to > > > > > send it to > > > > > > the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet = > > frames... This way > > > > > when a new > > > > > > wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs > > > > > to be done > > > > > > is updating the SW of the AC. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that was in = > > > the > > > > > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the WTP and > > > > > be sent to > > > > > > the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > > > > > > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion (sending the = > > > original > > > > > > 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to = > > convert to the AC = > > > media > > > > > > type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future wireless > > > > > technologies" > > > > > > objective... > > > > > > > > > > > > - Tal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > = > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > > > > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and Secure = > > > Systems > > > Group. > > > > > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > > > > University > > > > > > of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Capwap mailing list > > > >Capwap@frascone.com > > > >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > = > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > pjXX&_=1Cwhm~rr+-w=C6=A9 > > > j~rr > > > = > > pjXX&_=1Cwhm~rr+-w=C6=A9 > > = > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 04:12:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0apn-0003WZ-8N for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 04:12:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA10472 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 04:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF4A204C7; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 04:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABF420361; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 04:12:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3B820361 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 04:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8494C20319 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 04:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j747xpuf000384; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:59:51 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508040759.j747xpuf000384@stout.trpz.com> To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:11:58 PDT." <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278AA61@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <382.1123142391.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:59:51 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Pat, I'm not making accusations on you or your company, merely pointing out that "Cisco and Airespace" are not two different things. And also that I was pretty badly misquoted in your post as well. Regarding what you feel the real issue here is, image download is very useful. If it is possible to use it in a way that could get someone in legal trouble in some jurisdiction on this planet I don't think is something we should care about. (Note that I do not agree that it is illegal only admitting that certain people-- like you-- feel that way). LWAPP allows for the country code to be changed. Therefore I could use LWAPP to do something illegal. Does that mean that setting of the country code in LWAPP should be removed? No, I don't think so. Same for image download. It's very useful and we should provide that functionality. We are providing tools, like a screwdriver. If someone uses a valid tool for an illegal purpose, like stabbing someone in the neck, that isn't the fault of the tool designer. Dan. On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:11:58 PDT you wrote > Dan, > > Putting aside all of the various accusations, both personal and to my > company, let me at least address the real issues here. > > In order to support 802.11k, the AC sends the relevant ACTION frame > through the WTP to the STA. The STA will respond, which will make it > back to the AC. There is no need to involve the WTP in this manner. If > data needs to be added to a beacon, then you are correct that a change > is required. We could simply address this by using a generic "Beacon > Data" which is sent from the AC to the WTP. > > I believe that all (or nearly all) protocols support a download > mechanism. The primary differences are how we view this download > mechanism as providing value. While I view this as a method for AP > firmware to be upgraded by the manufacturer, you see this as a method to > allow for proprietary protocols to be pushed on the WTP. The issues > raised here are real and cannot be ignored. If a customer (or vendor) > wants to hijack APs with their own firmware and deal with the legal > consequences, then so be it, but I don't believe that the IETF needs to > get involved or condone this behavior. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 05:08:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0bi0-0001ND-Iw for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:08:12 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA14615 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405D0204FF; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237EB2046E; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:08:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAE62046E for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8307D20319 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:07:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2005 02:07:44 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,166,1120460400"; d="scan'208"; a="328892751:sNHT41734412" Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j7497bos017392 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:07:41 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC687424@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWYF6sIDHWDU+6+RVqB6LrA7uuySgAubOmg From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 09:07:41.0461 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7E7C450:01C598D3] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:07:39 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just because you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. =20 And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has everything to do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual operations at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the network, but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poked into the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for ease of management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protocol that requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC to determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a software download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal to operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without the appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other regulatory domains, as well. -Bob =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but that's just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore whether someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAPWAP.=20 Dan. On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about the > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he was > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would like > to discuss this further on the list. =20 >=20 > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code is > not from the entity that received the original certification for the > device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, > third party code. >=20 > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also be > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. >=20 > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon vendors. > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory > certification with every AC vendor. >=20 > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. > Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for an > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. It > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. >=20 > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer sufficient > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. > It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model > numbers. >=20 > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry for > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number of > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. >=20 > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely > interoperable products. >=20 > -Bob >=20 > Bob O'Hara > Cisco Systems - WNBU >=20 > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 05:17:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0bqj-00056m-4I for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:17:13 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA15289 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B59420680; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD0E20484; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:17:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3E920484 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9396A2046E for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2005 02:16:39 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,166,1120460400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="328896103:sNHT47635324" Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j749Gaoo021125 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:16:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C598D5.36DCDF6E" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC687425@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWYErhT9kF/vMb1TNWUfuti5xB28AAA6YyZAC9xP1A= From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 09:16:36.0733 (UTC) FILETIME=[36F3CAD0:01C598D5] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:16:35 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C598D5.36DCDF6E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tal, =20 In general, firmware download of firmware developed by the manufacturer of the WTP is a very good thing. this allows for feature updates and bug fixes, all keeping the WTP regulatory certification valid. Firmware download of firmware developed by someone other than the WTP vendor invalidates the WTP regulatory certification. =20 =20 As anyone involved in the WLAN market can tell you ( and I am sure you understand for yourself), few users of WLAN equipment understand the radio aspect of it. Even fewer of those that do understand the radio aspect also understand the regulatory aspect of the equipment. It simply is not necessary for them to understand the regulatory aspect. That is the responsibility of the manufacturer of the equipment. =20 the problem with allowing arbitrary firmware to be downloaded to a WTP is that the vast majority of the users of the equipment will not then be able to determine if their equipment is still certified and legal to operate. =20 -Bob =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Tal Anker [mailto:TalA@marvell.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:40 AM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Hi Bob, Without taking sides on whether it should be LWAPP or SLAPP... I'd just like to know what's bad with the ability to perform image download via the CAPWAP protocol? If the vendor chooses to update the WTP with its own SW, then be it - its the vendor problem to get the WTP certified... However allowing to perform the image update from the AC in the framework of the CAPWAP control protocol seems like a good thing (whether the SW image is fromthe AC vendor or from the WTP vendor).... =20 - Tal ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on behalf of Bob O'Hara (boohara) Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 12:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about the impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he was not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would like to discuss this further on the list.=20 It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code is not from the entity that received the original certification for the device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, third party code. In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also be physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon vendors. The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory certification with every AC vendor. This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for an AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. It is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer sufficient to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model numbers. I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry for AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number of ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely interoperable products. -Bob Bob O'Hara Cisco Systems - WNBU Phone: +1 408 853 5513 Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C598D5.36DCDF6E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory = certification
Tal,
 
In general, firmware download of firmware = developed by=20 the manufacturer of the WTP is a very good thing.  this allows for = feature=20 updates and bug fixes, all keeping the WTP regulatory certification = valid. =20 Firmware download of firmware developed by someone other than the WTP = vendor=20 invalidates the WTP regulatory certification. 
 
As anyone involved in the WLAN market can = tell you (=20 and I am sure you understand for yourself), few users of WLAN equipment=20 understand the radio aspect of it.  Even fewer of those that do = understand=20 the radio aspect also understand the regulatory aspect of the = equipment. =20 It simply is not necessary for them to understand the regulatory = aspect. =20 That is the responsibility of the manufacturer of the=20 equipment.
 
the problem with allowing arbitrary firmware = to be=20 downloaded to a WTP is that the vast majority of the users of the = equipment will=20 not then be able to determine if their equipment is still certified and = legal to=20 operate.
 

 -Bob
 

 


From: Tal Anker = [mailto:TalA@marvell.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:40 AM
To: Bob = O'Hara=20 (boohara); capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded=20 discussion on regulatory certification

Hi = Bob,
Without taking sides on = whether it should=20 be LWAPP or SLAPP... I'd just like to know what's bad with the ability = to=20 perform image download via the CAPWAP protocol? If the vendor chooses to = update=20 the WTP with its own SW, then be it - its the vendor problem to get the = WTP=20 certified... However allowing to perform the image update from the AC in = the=20 framework of the CAPWAP control protocol seems like a good thing = (whether the SW=20 image is fromthe AC vendor or from the WTP = vendor)....
 
- Tal


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com on = behalf of Bob=20 O'Hara (boohara)
Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 12:04 PM
To:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on=20 regulatory certification

At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter = for SLAPP=20 about the
impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have=20 received
regulatory certification.  At that time, the presenter = said=20 that he was
not expert in that area, but suspected that = recertification of=20 the
device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code.  I = would=20 like
to discuss this further on the list. 

It is my = assertion=20 that all regulatory agencies that require
certification of WTPs for = operation=20 in their jurisdiction will require
that WTPs that receive code and = use it for=20 operation, when that code is
not from the entity that received the = original=20 certification for the
device, will require a new certification of = that device=20 with the new,
third party code.

In addition, nearly all = regulatory=20 agencies, certainly those in North
America, Europe, Asia, and the = Middle=20 East, require an external
indication of the certification, usually a = sticker=20 with an identifying
string.  I also assert that downloading new = code to=20 a third party WTP
will require that all WTPs that have received that = code=20 must now also be
physically accessed to have a new sticker = affixed.

It=20 is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports = for
each=20 silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon = vendors.
The AC=20 vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every=20 WTP
manufactured.  Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain=20 regulatory
certification with every AC vendor.

This will be a=20 significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors.
Where current = devices=20 need to be certified once for each regulatory
domain, SLAPP will = require that=20 each device is certified several times
for each regulatory = domain.  The=20 cost of regulatory certification for an
AC vendor is now multiplied = by the=20 number of WTPs that is supports.
Similarly, the cost of certification = for a=20 WTP vendor is multiplied by
the number of ACs that are = supported.  Even=20 sharing the cost of
certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts = this=20 cost in half.  It
is still dramatically larger than with any = other=20 proposal.

This is a very important issue.  With SLAPP, it is = no=20 longer sufficient
to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol = to be=20 interoperable.
It is now necessary that there be a specific business=20 relationships
between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" = vendors=20 and model
numbers.

I believe that this also significantly = raises the=20 barriers to entry for
AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market = entry is=20 associated with
the costs of regulatory certification with a = potentially=20 large number of
ACs and WTPs.  As the number of ACs and WTPs = increase,=20 this cost also
increases.  The result is likely to be an = entrenchment of=20 the early
entrants into this market and the exclusion of new=20 participants.

So, my final assertion is that adoption of the = SLAPP model=20 for CAPWAP
would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired=20 from
standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and=20 widely
interoperable products.

 -Bob

Bob = O'Hara
Cisco=20 Systems - WNBU

Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
Mobile: +1 408 218 = 4025

_______________________________________________
Capwap = mailing=20 list
Capwap@frascone.com
http://mail.fra= scone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap

------_=_NextPart_001_01C598D5.36DCDF6E-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 05:18:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0brd-0005Xk-GC for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:18:09 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA15348 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:18:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB85206DB; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:18:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92250204B3; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:18:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908F020484 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EEB2046E for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7496aqE000604 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:06:36 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508040906.j7496aqE000604@stout.trpz.com> To: capwap@frascone.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <602.1123146396.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] questions for eval team Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:06:36 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi, The evaluation team came up with Ps for SLAPP compliance in two areas in which the SLAPP self-evaluation came up with Cs. I'm curious if the evaluation team could explain how SLAPP did not fully comply with: 5.1.7 Resource Control 5.1.12 Protocol Specification I think I understand why 5.1.5 Firmware Trigger was given a P and the SLAPP self-evaluation gave it a P as well. thanks, Dan. _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 05:22:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0bvX-0006kK-EE for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:22:11 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA15659 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A714206DE; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E01D204B3; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:22:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5F1204B3 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0E52046E for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2005 02:21:34 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,166,1120460400"; d="scan'208"; a="202621166:sNHT39557846" Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j749LQ0J013268 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:21:30 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC687426@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWYGXYkVlJ6Az5dRSi02HsUPLrYFQAu8kAg From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 09:21:30.0913 (UTC) FILETIME=[E64C1910:01C598D5] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:21:29 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, A recertification becomes necessary in just about all regulatory domains when a vendor exceeds the terms of their original license. In some regulatory domains, this means that any firmware download will require a new certification, as these regulatory domains allow no modification of the product after it is certified. =20 In some regulatory domains, there is much more leeway permitted to the vendor, allowing them much greater flexibility to make changes in the product. Some of these domains require notification of the changes that have been made. Some do not. I hope this is helpful. -Bob =20 -----Original Message----- From: David T. Perkins [mailto:dperkins@dsperkins.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:52 AM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification HI, So, following the logic of the below, when does a new code release by the WTP vendor require a recertification and new sticker? On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob O'Hara (boohara) wrote: > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about the > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he was > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would like > to discuss this further on the list. =20 >=20 > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code is > not from the entity that received the original certification for the > device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, > third party code. >=20 > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also be > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. >=20 > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon vendors. > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory > certification with every AC vendor. >=20 > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. > Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for an > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. It > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. >=20 > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer sufficient > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. > It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model > numbers. >=20 > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry for > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number of > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. >=20 > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely > interoperable products. >=20 > -Bob Regards, /david t. perkins _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 08:24:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0elp-0002HB-BB for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:24:24 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA01080 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F7120655; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605E3204B3; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:24:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A24204B3 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gwo2.mbox.net (gateout02.mbox.net [165.212.64.22]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BCAE20361 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gateout02.mbox.net (gateout02.mbox.net [165.212.64.22]) by gwo2.mbox.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 84F3D16377E; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:23:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateout02.mbox.net [165.212.64.22] by gateout02.mbox.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.17K) with ESMTP id 472JHDmXE0364Mo2; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:23:30 GMT Received: from gw3.EXCHPROD.USA.NET [165.212.116.254] by gateout02.mbox.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.21U); Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:23:30 GMT X-USANET-Source: 165.212.116.254 IN bhandaru@nexthop.com gw3.EXCHPROD.USA.NET X-USANET-MsgId: XID288JHDmXE3091Xo2 Received: from VS4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET ([10.116.208.141]) by gw3.EXCHPROD.USA.NET with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:23:29 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7232.53 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <7ADC90A5E95BA74DA5CA5A6C390D5305BC7FCA@VS4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies thread-index: AcWYycpqf/2ElJtsSaeFctgAWkxNjQAJTtBg From: "Nehru Bhandaru" To: "Dan Harkins" , "Michael Montemurro" Cc: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Yuval Cohen" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 12:23:29.0739 (UTC) FILETIME=[526CB9B0:01C598EF] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:23:16 -0600 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the only assumption is - if local MAC then integration service = may be performed on WTP. Also according to my read of Fig 9 - arch taxonomoy draft (v6) 802.1x = authenticator may be on WTP for local MAC - Nehru -----Original Message----- From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 3:44 AM To: Michael Montemurro Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Nehru Bhandaru; Yuval Cohen; Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies =20 So are we saying that if the integration service is performed on = the WTP then you're "local MAC" regardless of any of the other non-real time functions that may be done on the AC? I'm not sure I agree with = that. =20 By the way, if the 802.1x authenticator is on the AC then I think = you are by definition a split MAC. No? =20 Dan. =20 On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:42:32 EDT you wrote > I would agree with this using 802.3 for local MAC and 802.xx for = split MAC > would be a reasonable compromise to this issue. > > Mike > > Michael Montemurro > Director, Advanced Technology and Standards > Chantry Networks, A Siemens Company > 1900 Minnesota Ct, Suite 125 > Mississauga, ON, CANADA. > T: 905-363-6413 > F: 905-567-9900 > E: michael.montemurro@siemens.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Sent: August 3, 2005 9:57 AM > > To: Nehru Bhandaru; Yuval Cohen; Bob O'Hara (boohara); > > capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > technologies > > > > So this would be an argument for local bridging and tunneling > > of 802.3 frames in local mode. I think that would be a good > > compromise. I believe that changing the basic fundamentals of > > Split MAC, which means *all* AP functions are performed in > > the AC (possibly including encryption), would be a mistake. > > > > The taxonomy recommendation already recommends that Local MAC > > be the "mandatory" mode, but if the WG agrees, we could make > > changes to allow for tunneling of traffic in an 802.3 mode. > > > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Nehru Bhandaru > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:39 AM > > > To: Yuval Cohen; Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > IMHO supporting the case where 802.11 <-> 802.3 conversion > > is done at > > > the WTP and 802.3 is transported to AC is important to = leverage > > > existing silicon in the data path at the AC. This can be > > accomplished > > > in many ways in CAPWAP - one option that seems to be under > > debate is > > > to consider this as a mode of Split MAC. > > > > > > Another, something I like better and not very complicated, is = to > > > consider this an Local MAC option where the integration/portal > > > function of 802.11 AP is at the AC. With this model, LWAPP = control > > > protocol (in the Local MAC case) could negotiate the > > encapsulation for > > > the data path to the portal. This could be GRE, LWAPP(L2/L3) = or > > > whatever - with inner payload of 802.3. RSSI/SNR/etc values = can be > > > obtained from the encapsulation header... > > > > > > Split MAC could carry 802.11 only in the data path. > > > > > > - Nehru > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > > Behalf Of Yuval Cohen > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:55 AM > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other = wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > Bob, > > > the discussion is not only about local MAC but also about split > > > MAC. The > > > local MAC was given just as an example. > > > For reasons provided before, I see also a lot of sense in using > > > 802.3 > > > frames also in the split MAC case, where you do the distribution > > > function (based on 802.3 frame switching) within the AC > > > Since in any case you need to add the 802.11 specific > > info (like > > > RSSI), > > > I'd rather see it within the LWAPP tunnel header so I > > can choose > > > if to > > > take it from there or not and keep the frame 802.3. > > This will give > > > the > > > most flexibility for those implementations that need the = extra > > > info and > > > for those looking into simple implementations not = requiring > > > processing > > > the extra info or allowing processing in the WTP > > > > > > I would like to hear more opinions on the WG mailing list = as to > > > how > > > important it is to support this also in split MAC case > > > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > > Behalf Of Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:49 AM > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other = wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > I guess I fail to see what this controversy is all about. > > > If you want > > > to forward 802.3 frames from the WTP, you are using the > > local MAC > > > variant supported by LWAPP. In fact, that is what the taxonomy > > > draft > > > specifies. > > > > > > If all you have in your AC is Ethernet switch silicon > > on the data > > > path, > > > this is the only reasonable implementation. To say > > that another > > > option > > > is necessary to support conversion of 802.11 frames to > > > 802.3 frames in > > > the WTP in split MAC mode, separate the 802.11-specific > > > information and > > > forward the 802.3 frames and separated 802.11 information about > > > those > > > forwarded 802.3 frames in LWAPP packets is ridiculous. > > > Just because you > > > have a hammer, doesn't mean that everything else in the > > world is a > > > nail. > > > > > > It seems that this is a tremendous complication to the > > AC, which > > > now > > > needs to correlate this separated information. This correlation > > > operation was not necessary when the 802.11 frames were > > forwarded > > > directly, since the frames and their information > > arrived whole and > > > together. > > > > > > In order to reduce the computing load on the AC to = correlate the > > > separated information, the WTP could send only summarized > > > information. > > > Of course, this reduces the amount of information > > available to the > > > AC, > > > without justification. > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On > > > Behalf Of Michael Vakulenko > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:27 AM > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > > Cc: Yuval Cohen; Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other = wireless > > > technologies > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > Your question is independent of whether CAPWAP tunnels = 802.3 or > > > 802.11 frame. Signal strength field does not present in > > > 802.11 frame > > > headers. Having tunnel 802.11 frames doesn't solve the problem. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > -- Michael V. > > > > > > At 08:46 AM 8/3/2005, Pat Calhoun \(pacalhou\) wrote: > > > >Yuval, > > > > > > > >I'd like to comment on your point about having the WTP process > > > the > > > >information, and provide a digested version of the > > information. > > > How > > > >would you propose that the WTP represent the changes in signal > > > strength > > > >(which occur in real time) to the AC - and how > > frequent would you > > > >propose these updates be made? Would this be a packet > > that hits > > > the > > > >control processor, because if so, then I have some = serious > > > scaling > > > >concerns. > > > > > > > >That said, I think that in the end we need the > > evaluation team to > > > make > > > a > > > >recommendation on a protocol, and then let the WG > > decide. If the > > > WG > > > >decides that two separate protocol formats would be > > better than > > > one, > > > >then we can go down that path (and make sure that we make = one > > > mandatory > > > >to implement). > > > > > > > >Pat Calhoun > > > >CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > > >Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Yuval Cohen [mailto:YuvalC@marvell.com] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:18 PM > > > > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > > > > Cc: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > While the control path is usually implemented in CPU, = the > > > > > data path in some cases is realized in silicon. = Processing > > > > > 802.11 frames may add to complexity and cost. > > > > > > > > > > I agree that in some cases, there is a need for the = WTP to > > > > > send the 802.11 frame, as in the case of centralized crypto > > > > > (although that may conflict with HCCA) but for those > > > > > implementations not requiring that and in > > particular local AP > > > > > case, there is no real need for 802.11 frame > > reaching the AC. > > > > > The extra info within the 802.11 frame can be = processed > > > > > within the WTP and provided to the AC if needed via = the > > > > > control plane, possibly after some digestion. > > > > > Using 802.3 frames only, will keep the implementation simple > > > > > and will enable a large install base of existing = switches to > > > > > become AC with just software upgrade. This will aid = wide > > > > > adoption of LDAP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My recommendation is that LWAPP will not limit the = frame > > > > > format to 802.11 only but rather allow two formats, = either > > > > > 802.11 or 802.3. > > > > > > > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun > > > (pacalhou) > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:16 AM > > > > > To: Tal Anker; capwap@frascone.com > > > > > Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless > > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > > > Tal, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the e-mail. > > > > > > > > > > I believe that I understand your point, but I would = argue > > > > > that the AC will have to be modified to support a new > > > > > technology, and that upgrading the code in the data = path is > > > > > really no more difficult than the control path. If an > > > > > implementation exists that does not allow for upgrade, then > > > > > it is limiting its market. > > > > > > > > > > I would argue that include "technology specific" information > > > > > piggy backed within the LWAPP data frame would be hard = to > > > > > achieve, because we cannot predict what this = information > > > > > would end up being. For instance, > > > > > 802.11 has the concept of a BSSID, while 802.16 has > > something > > > > > different (and has additional information). So how = would you > > > > > map 802.11 QoS field into a field that may not match = with > > > 802.16s? > > > > > > > > > > If one were to need to extend the piggy backed header, then > > > > > this would require changes to the data path anyhow. Further, > > > > > certain features will require changes to the data = path, for > > > > > instance the introduction of 802.11i centralized encryption > > > > > requires that the data path perform AES-CCMP, and = 802.11e > > > > > requires specific quality of service queuing and = policing. > > > > > > > > > > So while I understand the point raised, I firmly > > believe that > > > > > transporting the native frame provides the AC with > > all of the > > > > > information for the specific technology, and allows it = to > > > > > provide differentiated services based on the = information > > > > > present - vs. limiting it to what generic information would > > > > > be in this piggy backed header. > > > > > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > > > > > Cisco Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > > > > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Tal Anker > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:47 AM > > > > > > To: capwap@frascone.com > > > > > > Subject: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other = wireless > > > > > technologies > > > > > > > > > > > > Resending this (it seems the first attempt fails... > > > > > > appologies if you receive duplicate copies...). > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > while going over the LWAPP draft and on the = objecives of > > > > > CAPWAP there > > > > > > seems to be a CAPWAP objective that may not be fully > > > > > achieved with the > > > > > > current LWAPP spec. > > > > > > The LWAPP specification requires that the 802.11 = frames > > > would be > > > > > > encapsulated by the WTP and sent to the AC for processing. > > > > > > The benefit from doing this is having the original = info > > > > > carried in the > > > > > > .11 frame available to the AC. > > > > > > However, this requires the AC to process the native 802.11 > > > > > frames; an > > > > > > operation that will probably be done in some HW component. > > > > > My concern > > > > > > is that one of the CAPWAP objectives was to be applicable > > > > > not only to > > > > > > 802.11 but for various wireless technologies. As a result > > > the > > > LWAPP > > > > > > should also be applicable no only for 802.11... (as = it > > > > > indeed states > > > > > > in the beginning of the LWAPP draft). However > > mandating that > > > the > > > > > > wireless media frames would be sent to the AC in = their > > > > > original format > > > > > > would make this objective harder to achieve... When = a new > > > wireless > > > > > > media type would be introduced, the AC would have to = be > > > somehow > > > > > > adapted to process the data frames (not only the = control > > > > > frames that > > > > > > can obviously be processed in the AC cpu...). > > > > > > This means either a HW change (or if the AC is using = NP > > > > > then an NP SW > > > > > > upgrade). > > > > > > What seems reasonable to do is to add the OPTION for > > > > > sending the data > > > > > > frames to the AC using the media type tha tthe WTP = is > > > > > connected to the > > > > > > AC with. Meaning - to convert the frame in the WTP = and to > > > > > send it to > > > > > > the AC for instance using 802.3 ethernet > > frames... This way > > > > > when a new > > > > > > wireless technology is inroduced to the AC all that needs > > > > > to be done > > > > > > is updating the SW of the AC. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for loosing the specific media information that = was in > > > the > > > > > > 802.11 header - this info can be collected by the = WTP and > > > > > be sent to > > > > > > the AC using LWAPP protocol messages... > > > > > > > > > > > > Supporting both the current LWAPP suggestion = (sending the > > > original > > > > > > 802.11 frames to the AC) AND the option to > > convert to the AC > > > media > > > > > > type will allow LWAPP to comply to the "future = wireless > > > > > technologies" > > > > > > objective... > > > > > > > > > > > > - Tal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > Tal Anker, PhD. > > > > > > DANSS - Distributed Algorithms, Networking and = Secure > > > Systems > > > Group. > > > > > > The School of Engineering and Computer Science, The hebrew > > > > > University > > > > > > of Jerusalem, Israel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Capwap mailing list > > > >Capwap@frascone.com > > > >http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > pjXX&_=1Cwhm~rr+-w=C6=A9 > > > j~rr > > > > > pjXX&_=1Cwhm~rr+-w=C6=A9 > > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 04 11:41:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0hqO-0007G6-OX for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:41:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20149 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3B620361; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA2C204EA; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:41:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EA6204EA for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A121120361 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2005 08:40:21 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,166,1120460400"; d="scan'208"; a="329020133:sNHT31072224" Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j74FeE0L002979; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:40:15 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278ADDD@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting Thread-Index: AcWYzCbZlu7Lm7gaSka6tQ1RTh85kAAB4GwQ From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dan Harkins" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2005 15:40:15.0568 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF3F4500:01C5990A] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:40:13 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, Please find the text of section (b. Security requirements for software defined radios) under page 19 of the FCC's Cognitive Radio R&O, which can be found at http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-57A1.pdf Basically what it says is that the manufacturer has to provide measures that prevent "wrong" downloads/updates and it says that the FCC must get insight into the SDR code being distributed/downloaded. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 1:00 AM > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting=20 >=20 > Pat, >=20 > I'm not making accusations on you or your company, merely=20 > pointing out that "Cisco and Airespace" are not two different=20 > things. And also that I was pretty badly misquoted in your=20 > post as well. >=20 > Regarding what you feel the real issue here is, image=20 > download is very useful. If it is possible to use it in a way=20 > that could get someone in legal trouble in some jurisdiction=20 > on this planet I don't think is something we should care=20 > about. (Note that I do not agree that it is illegal only=20 > admitting that certain people-- like you-- feel that way). > LWAPP allows for the country code to be changed. Therefore I=20 > could use LWAPP to do something illegal. Does that mean that=20 > setting of the country code in LWAPP should be removed? No, I=20 > don't think so. Same for image download. It's very useful and=20 > we should provide that functionality. > We are providing tools, like a screwdriver. If someone uses a=20 > valid tool for an illegal purpose, like stabbing someone in=20 > the neck, that isn't the fault of the tool designer. >=20 > Dan. >=20 > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:11:58 PDT you wrote > > Dan, > >=20 > > Putting aside all of the various accusations, both personal=20 > and to my=20 > > company, let me at least address the real issues here. > >=20 > > In order to support 802.11k, the AC sends the relevant ACTION frame=20 > > through the WTP to the STA. The STA will respond, which=20 > will make it=20 > > back to the AC. There is no need to involve the WTP in this=20 > manner. If=20 > > data needs to be added to a beacon, then you are correct=20 > that a change=20 > > is required. We could simply address this by using a=20 > generic "Beacon=20 > > Data" which is sent from the AC to the WTP. > >=20 > > I believe that all (or nearly all) protocols support a download=20 > > mechanism. The primary differences are how we view this download=20 > > mechanism as providing value. While I view this as a method for AP=20 > > firmware to be upgraded by the manufacturer, you see this=20 > as a method=20 > > to allow for proprietary protocols to be pushed on the WTP.=20 > The issues=20 > > raised here are real and cannot be ignored. If a customer=20 > (or vendor)=20 > > wants to hijack APs with their own firmware and deal with the legal=20 > > consequences, then so be it, but I don't believe that the=20 > IETF needs=20 > > to get involved or condone this behavior. > >=20 > > Pat Calhoun > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Fri Aug 05 02:13:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0vSm-0008O3-Dx for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:13:48 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA15738 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 02:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9650220702; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 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Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <5844A41F4E146044A2E8356C63285880093C5FEA@nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxAAAFRzaAAXckHIA== From: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" To: "Yuval Cohen" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 02:11:57 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxAAAFRzaAABsGM0AAC+h4gAFOClyA= From: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Nehru Bhandaru" , "Yuval Cohen" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 02:11:57 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSByZXNwZWN0ZnVsbHkgZGlzYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB0aGUgYXNzdW1wdGlvbiB0aGF0IFNwbGl0IE1B QyBpcyBkZWZpbmUgYXMgKmFsbCogQVAgZnVuY3Rpb25zIGluIHRoZSBBQywgYW5kIGluIHBhcnRp Y3VsYXIgdGhlIERTLiBUaGlzIGlzc3VlIHdhcyBleGhhdXN0ZWQgaW4gdGhlIGxpc3QuIElmIG15 IG1lbW9yeSBzZXJ2ZXIgbWUgcmlnaHQgdGhlIGtleSBhcmd1bWVudHMgaW4gZmF2b3Igb2Ygb2Zm 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larry.its.monash.edu.au (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D7E80010; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:10:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from webcamserver.eng.monash.edu.au (webcamserver.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.5.143]) by larry.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA453C005; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:10:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by webcamserver.eng.monash.edu.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) id j756AHT10882 for dna-list; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:10:17 +1000 Received: from ALPHA6.ITS.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha6.its.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.25]) by webcamserver.eng.monash.edu.au (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id j756AHw10877 for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:10:17 +1000 Received: from curly.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.13.87]) by vaxc.its.monash.edu.au (PMDF V6.1 #31112) with ESMTP id <01LRH456EJBK8X0DG7@vaxc.its.monash.edu.au> for dna@ecselists.eng.monash.edu.au (ORCPT dna@eng.monash.edu.au); Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:09:55 +1000 Received: from curly.its.monash.edu.au (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61998AB542; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:09:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from [172.19.242.9] (vpn-student-242-9.its.monash.edu.au [172.19.242.9]) by curly.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316F04FB0B; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:09:53 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:09:49 +1000 From: Greg Daley Subject: Re: [DNA] Failing to produce a link-up hint In-reply-to: Sender: owner-dna@ecselists.eng.monash.edu.au To: Marc Manthey Cc: Dna Message-id: <42F302AD.6050807@eng.monash.edu.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) References: <248122c538.2c53824812@pintlmail.MITL.Research.Panasonic.COM> <00ab01c598f4$baf7a080$41476c6b@sisodomain.com> <42F22B22.8080504@ericsson.com> <42F2892B.3080703@nist.gov> <42F23B6C.50206@sun.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Marc, It is hard to tell what the relevance of your e-mail. If you're posting URLs to the list which don't have clear and obvious relevance to the topic of conversation, it is appropriate to identify the relevant material. Please do so, otherwise you add nothing to the conversation. Greg Marc Manthey wrote: > > On Aug 4, 2005, at 5:59 PM, Erik Nordmark wrote: > >> Nicolas Montavont wrote: >> >>> Tero, >>> I don't have a technology in mind, but from an implementation point >>> of view, maybe some nodes won't implement Link Up. >>> >> >> And some nodes won't implement DNA ;-) > > > http://www.dns-sd.org/ServerSetup.html > From capwap-admin@frascone.com Fri Aug 05 04:11:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E0xIO-0004si-VA for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:11:13 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA24148 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 04:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F6020642; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 04:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E797A20399; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 04:11:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A805320399 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 04:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maili.marvell.com (host2.marvell.com [65.219.4.2]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F33C20392 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 04:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rdlnexch01.marvell.com (rdlnexch01.marvell.com [10.6.1.9]) by maili.marvell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42C19170B7; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 01:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [BULK] RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Thread-Topic: [BULK] RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: 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Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD2D2038B; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:42:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E192038B for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (tiere.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E53202DC for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j75FclHX024682 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com (h198-152-6-52.avaya.com [198.152.6.52]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j75FcbHX024499 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:38:38 -0400 (EDT) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C599D4.1B366562" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <5844A41F4E146044A2E8356C63285880093C61F2@nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWX+1qMHCzB1pLpRnCX4GaPRp5rqQAIs9rQAGwRXiA= From: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:41:11 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C599D4.1B366562 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few: =20 Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /=20 dept. buildings. a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC. b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first. =20 WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements. =20 Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition. =20 Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow. =20 I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 Regards, Emek=20 _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) =20 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C599D4.1B366562 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless = one can=20 envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With = your=20 permission I'll name a few:
 
Consider a customer's facilities which span = over multiple=20 sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or = even a=20 campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for = such customers=20 the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in = the=20 branch offices /
dept. buildings.
a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of=20 avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP=20 to traverse the AC.
b. If the branch office has a leg = to the local=20 PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly = to the=20 PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first.
 
WiMAX:=20 two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul = and (b)=20 greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to=20 bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather = then to=20 tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time = application=20 requirements.
 
Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico = cell communication is confined within the cell by=20 definition.
 
Other=20 then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an = association=20 between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control = protocol, and the=20 user's data flow.
 
I am=20 not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would = argue=20 that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and = provide=20 a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the = WTP to=20 either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
Regards,
Emek 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 = AM
To:=20 partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two = modes of=20 operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), = and
2. Split MAC (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two modes. If = the group=20 feels more would be required, we should understand the application and = use=20 cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the=20 problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, = 2005 12:17=20 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = Split-MAC=20 with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing in=20 the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the = WTP and=20 the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren’s = slide says “local=20 MAC with local bridging”, but this was really a typo and should = have read,=20 according to Darren, “split MAC with local bridging”). = This mode is not=20 defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this = mode=20 really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members = presented a=20 clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would = be even=20 better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a = mode is=20 meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C599D4.1B366562-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 08 10:03:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E28Dl-00048b-8y for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:03:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22027 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61D320416; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B8420393; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:03:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ADC20393 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03F4202C1 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2005 07:02:22 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,173,1120460400"; d="scan'208"; a="203481553:sNHT39470736" Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j78E29Z9002142; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:02:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A27FB0E7@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxAAAFRzaAABsGM0AAC+h4gAFOClyAAqBwNgA== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" , "Nehru Bhandaru" , "Yuval Cohen" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2005 14:02:12.0396 (UTC) FILETIME=[C64176C0:01C59C21] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:02:11 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E28JY-0006iJ-1F for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:09:16 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22810 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F713202C1; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BED1203A5; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:09:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F790203A5 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:08:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 415AF202C1 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2005 07:08:50 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,173,1120460400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="330082981:sNHT58881496" Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j78E8KQe023707; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:08:43 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59C22.AEED53D0" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A27FB0EB@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWX+1qMHCzB1pLpRnCX4GaPRp5rqQAIs9rQAGwRXiAAlQAAYA== From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2005 14:08:43.0078 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF1ECE60:01C59C22] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:08:41 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C22.AEED53D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Emek, =20 > I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20 > and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 We support this. It's called Split or Local MAC. I think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same deployment scenarios in more than one way. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Sadot, Emek (Emek) [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:41 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few: =20 Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /=20 dept. buildings. a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC. b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first. =20 WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements. =20 Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition. =20 Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow. =20 I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 Regards, Emek=20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) =20 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C22.AEED53D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Emek,
 
> I am not opposing = implementing=20 the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow = the=20 customer to decide what's best for him, =
> = and=20 provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to = program the=20 WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
We support this. It's called Split or Local = MAC. I think=20 that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario = (and the=20 rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these=20 deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same = deployment=20 scenarios in more than one way.
 
Pat = Calhoun
CTO,=20 Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 


From: Sadot, Emek (Emek)=20 [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 8:41=20 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I=20 agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, = nevertheless one=20 can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. = With=20 your permission I'll name a few:
 
Consider a customer's facilities which span=20 over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or = insurance=20 company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume = that=20 for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main = building=20 where the WTP are in the branch offices /
dept.=20 buildings.
a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of=20 avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same = WTP=20 to traverse the AC.
b. If the=20 branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would = consider better if=20 the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC=20 first.
 
WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a = WiMAX as a=20 backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that = offering an=20 option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base=20 station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back = would better=20 meet real-time application requirements.
 
Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The = Bluetooth pico=20 cell communication is confined within the cell by=20 definition.
 
Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the = group mandate=20 an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a = control=20 protocol, and the user's data flow.
 
I am=20 not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would = argue=20 that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and = provide=20 a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the = WTP to=20 either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
Regards,
Emek 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 = AM
To:=20 partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines = two modes=20 of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), = and
2. Split MAC (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two modes. = If the group=20 feels more would be required, we should understand the application and = use=20 cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the=20 problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, = 2005=20 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing in=20 the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the = WTP and=20 the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren’s = slide says=20 “local MAC with local bridging”, but this was really a = typo and should have=20 read, according to Darren, “split MAC with local = bridging”). This mode is=20 not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what = this=20 mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members=20 presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was = required. It=20 would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on = whether=20 such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any = CAPWAP=20 protocol.

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C22.AEED53D0-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 08 15:48:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E2Dbe-0002oO-Vk for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:48:19 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13538 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC895201F6; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1681FE03; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:48:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4C61FE03 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (tiere.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643921FD6C for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j78JiNHX020215 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com (h198-152-6-52.avaya.com [198.152.6.52]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j78Jg3HX016574 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:43:27 -0400 (EDT) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Message-ID: <5844A41F4E146044A2E8356C632858800944693C@nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] comment about LWAPP and other wireless technologies Thread-Index: AcWYBaJrtlWsbMOaSgqlO3LY1UI6sAAAHHxAAAFRzaAABsGM0AAC+h4gAFOClyAAqBwNgAAJpNtg From: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Nehru Bhandaru" , "Yuval Cohen" , "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:44:30 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UGF0LA0KDQpUaGFua3MgcG9pbnRpbmcgaXQgb3V0LiBIb3dldmVyLCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgdGhl IGZhY3QgdGhhdCwgYXQgdGltZSwgYWxsIFNwbGl0IGFyY2guIHZlbmRvcnMgaW5jb3Jwb3JhdGVk 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(postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14779 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626B02023B; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425141FE03; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:56:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7466F1FE03 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623861FD6C for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j78JgRpt027121 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:42:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com (h198-152-6-52.avaya.com [198.152.6.52]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j78Jfrpt026226 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:42:04 -0400 (EDT) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59C53.01C4CBBF" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <5844A41F4E146044A2E8356C6328588009446956@nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWX+1qMHCzB1pLpRnCX4GaPRp5rqQAIs9rQAGwRXiAAlQAAYAALya3w From: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:54:37 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C53.01C4CBBF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat, =20 Let me drew you a hypothetical scenario: say a customer deployed ACs which employed Split MAC architecture in its main cites. After a while the customer wants to expend its CAPWAP model to remote offices by installing remote AP (AC stay at the HQs), but to bridge voice calls to the local PSTN at the remote office. What your recommendation to this customer would be? =20 Regards, Emek _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:09 AM To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Emek, =20 > I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20 > and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 We support this. It's called Split or Local MAC. I think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same deployment scenarios in more than one way. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 _____ =20 From: Sadot, Emek (Emek) [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:41 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few: =20 Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /=20 dept. buildings. a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC. b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first. =20 WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements. =20 Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition. =20 Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow. =20 I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 Regards, Emek=20 _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) =20 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C53.01C4CBBF Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pat,
 
Let me=20 drew you a hypothetical scenario: say a customer deployed ACs which = employed Split MAC architecture in its main cites. After a=20 while the customer wants to expend its CAPWAP model to remote = offices=20 by installing remote AP (AC stay at the HQs), but to bridge voice=20 calls to the local PSTN at the remote office.
What=20 your recommendation to this customer would be?
 
Regards,
Emek


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:09 = AM
To: Sadot,=20 Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; = capwap@frascone.com
Subject:=20 RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the = WTP

Emek,
 
> I am not opposing = implementing=20 the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow = the=20 customer to decide what's best for him, =
>=20 and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the = AC to=20 program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge = them=20 locally.
 
We support this. It's called Split or Local = MAC. I think=20 that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario = (and the=20 rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these=20 deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same = deployment=20 scenarios in more than one way.
 
Pat = Calhoun
CTO,=20 Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 


From: Sadot, Emek (Emek)=20 [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 8:41=20 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I=20 agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, = nevertheless one=20 can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. = With=20 your permission I'll name a few:
 
Consider a customer's facilities which span=20 over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or = insurance=20 company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume = that=20 for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main = building=20 where the WTP are in the branch offices /
dept.=20 buildings.
a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of=20 avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same = WTP=20 to traverse the AC.
b. If the=20 branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would = consider better if=20 the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC=20 first.
 
WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a = WiMAX as a=20 backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that = offering an=20 option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base=20 station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back = would better=20 meet real-time application requirements.
 
Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The = Bluetooth pico=20 cell communication is confined within the cell by=20 definition.
 
Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the = group mandate=20 an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a = control=20 protocol, and the user's data flow.
 
I am=20 not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would = argue=20 that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and = provide=20 a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the = WTP to=20 either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
Regards,
Emek 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 = AM
To:=20 partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines = two modes=20 of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), = and
2. Split MAC (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two modes. = If the group=20 feels more would be required, we should understand the application and = use=20 cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the=20 problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, = 2005=20 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing in=20 the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the = WTP and=20 the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren’s = slide says=20 “local MAC with local bridging”, but this was really a = typo and should have=20 read, according to Darren, “split MAC with local = bridging”). This mode is=20 not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what = this=20 mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members=20 presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was = required. It=20 would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on = whether=20 such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any = CAPWAP=20 protocol.

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C53.01C4CBBF-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 08 16:07:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E2Du0-0001id-4G for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:07:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17620 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF142026F; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256511FE0E; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:07:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E19411FE0E for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from typhoon.trangosoft.com (unknown [209.82.51.154]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6971FD6C for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phantom-out.trangosoft.com ([136.157.233.22]) by 136.157.233.32 with trend_isnt_name_B; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:06:01 -0400 Received: from troll3.trangosoft.com (troll3.trangosoft.com [136.157.233.13]) by phantom-out.trangosoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160A824FAC; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by troll3.trangosoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:59:50 -0400 Message-ID: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601322168F@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> From: Michael Montemurro To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" , partha@arubanetworks.com, capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59C54.6617264A" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:04:35 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C54.6617264A Content-Type: text/plain Emek, Pat One possible solution to this problem would be to take a Local MAC approach, but configure the tunnel on a logical network basis. For instance, traffic for one logical network would be bridged locally at the WTP and traffic for another logical network would be tunnelled to the AC. The WTP would be configured as Local MAC. Tunnelling would be configured on a logical network basis. Cheers, Mike _____ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: August 8, 2005 10:09 AM To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Emek, > I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, > and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. We support this. It's called Split or Local MAC. I think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same deployment scenarios in more than one way. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _____ From: Sadot, Emek (Emek) [mailto:esadot@avaya.com] Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:41 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few: Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices / dept. buildings. a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC. b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first. WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements. Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition. Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow. I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. Regards, Emek _____ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems _____ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol. Thanks partha ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C54.6617264A Content-Type: text/html
Emek, Pat
One possible solution to this problem would be to take a Local MAC approach, but configure the tunnel on a logical network basis. For instance, traffic for one logical network would be bridged locally at the WTP and traffic for another logical network would be tunnelled to the AC. 
 
The WTP would be configured as Local MAC. Tunnelling would be configured on a logical network basis.
 
Cheers,
 
    Mike


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Sent: August 8, 2005 10:09 AM
To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

Emek,
 
> I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,
> and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally.
 
We support this. It's called Split or Local MAC. I think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same deployment scenarios in more than one way.
 
Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 


From: Sadot, Emek (Emek) [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:41 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few:
 
Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /
dept. buildings.
a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC.
b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first.
 
WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements.
 
Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition.
 
Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow.
 
I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally.
 
Regards,
Emek 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM
To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and
2. Split MAC (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren’s slide says “local MAC with local bridging”, but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, “split MAC with local bridging”). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C54.6617264A-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 08 17:40:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E2FM5-0005Hc-GJ for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:40:22 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26451 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA8E1FE17; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:40:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B771201F6; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:40:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81843201F6 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DAF1FE17 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2005 14:39:21 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j78LcbpO016552; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:39:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59C61.A0E8A326" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A27FB27D@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWX+1qMHCzB1pLpRnCX4GaPRp5rqQAIs9rQAGwRXiAAlQAAYAALya3wAAP6RDA= From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2005 21:39:17.0727 (UTC) FILETIME=[A106DEF0:01C59C61] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:39:16 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C61.A0E8A326 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Deploy Local MAC WTPs at that site. That what our customers are doing - use a mix/match approach. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Sadot, Emek (Emek) Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:55 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 Pat, =20 Let me drew you a hypothetical scenario: say a customer deployed ACs which employed Split MAC architecture in its main cites. After a while the customer wants to expend its CAPWAP model to remote offices by installing remote AP (AC stay at the HQs), but to bridge voice calls to the local PSTN at the remote office. What your recommendation to this customer would be? =20 Regards, Emek ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:09 AM To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 Emek, =20 > I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20 > and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =09 =20 We support this. It's called Split or Local MAC. I think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same deployment scenarios in more than one way. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Sadot, Emek (Emek) [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:41 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few: =20 Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /=20 dept. buildings. a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC. b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first. =20 WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements. =20 Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition. =20 Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow. =20 I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 Regards, Emek=20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) =20 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C61.A0E8A326 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Deploy Local MAC WTPs at that site. That what = our customers=20 are doing - use a mix/match approach.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Sadot, Emek=20 (Emek)
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:55 PM
To: = Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

Pat,
 
Let=20 me drew you a hypothetical scenario: say a customer deployed ACs = which=20 employed Split MAC architecture in its main cites. After a=20 while the customer wants to expend its CAPWAP model to = remote=20 offices by installing remote AP (AC stay at the HQs), but to = bridge voice=20 calls to the local PSTN at the remote office.
What=20 your recommendation to this customer would be?
 
Regards,
Emek


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:09 = AM
To:=20 Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

Emek,
 
> I am not = opposing=20 implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that = we should=20 allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20
> and provide a mechanism to = facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel = data=20 packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
We support this. It's called Split or Local = MAC. I think=20 that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this = scenario (and=20 the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed = these=20 deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same = deployment=20 scenarios in more than one way.
 
Pat = Calhoun
CTO,=20 Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 


From: Sadot, Emek (Emek)=20 [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 8:41=20 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I=20 agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, = nevertheless one=20 can envision a landscape of applications to support such = effort. With=20 your permission I'll name a few:
 
Consider a customer's facilities which span=20 over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or = insurance=20 company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to = assume that=20 for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main = building=20 where the WTP are in the branch offices /
dept.=20 buildings.
a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of = avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same = WTP=20 to traverse the AC.
b. If the=20 branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would = consider better if=20 the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC=20 first.
 
WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a = WiMAX as a=20 backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that = offering an=20 option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base=20 station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back = would=20 better meet real-time application requirements.
 
Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The = Bluetooth pico=20 cell communication is confined within the cell by=20 definition.
 
Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the = group mandate=20 an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a = control=20 protocol, and the user's data flow.
 
I=20 am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I = would=20 argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for = him, and=20 provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to = program=20 the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
Regards,
Emek 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 = AM
To:=20 partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the = WTP

I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines = two=20 modes of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), = and
2. Split MAC (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two modes. = If the=20 group feels more would be required, we should understand the = application and=20 use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the=20 problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless = Networking Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, = 2005=20 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing=20 in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split = between the=20 WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP = (Darren’s slide=20 says “local MAC with local bridging”, but this was = really a typo and=20 should have read, according to Darren, “split MAC with local = bridging”).=20 This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we = were not=20 sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the = eval team=20 members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a = mode was=20 required. It would be even better if we could also get WG=20 discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is = required=20 to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol. =

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C61.A0E8A326-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 08 17:41:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E2FMy-0005Sj-F3 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:41:16 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26480 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3ED2038E; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D6D202E3; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:41:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B25203A3 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F982038E for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2005 14:40:17 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,90,1122879600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="653604272:sNHT61014282" Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j78Le30T008724; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:40:10 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59C61.C0849D9C" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A27FB27E@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWcVLAzGg+l5o5KTPWfYrcOQsAYwgADP68Q From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Michael Montemurro" , "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2005 21:40:10.0605 (UTC) FILETIME=[C08B69D0:01C59C61] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:40:09 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C61.C0849D9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure - that an implementation of a CAPWAP WTP - have it support both based on the SSID (or some other means that should be outside the scope of the document). =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Michael Montemurro [mailto:michael.montemurro@siemens.com] Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 1:05 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 =09 Emek, Pat =09 One possible solution to this problem would be to take a Local MAC approach, but configure the tunnel on a logical network basis. For instance, traffic for one logical network would be bridged locally at the WTP and traffic for another logical network would be tunnelled to the AC.=20 =20 The WTP would be configured as Local MAC. Tunnelling would be configured on a logical network basis. =20 Cheers, =20 Mike ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: August 8, 2005 10:09 AM To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 Emek, =20 > I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20 > and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =09 =20 We support this. It's called Split or Local MAC. I think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same deployment scenarios in more than one way. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Sadot, Emek (Emek) [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:41 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few: =20 Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /=20 dept. buildings. a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC. b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first. =20 WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements. =20 Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition. =20 Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow. =20 I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 Regards, Emek=20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) =20 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C61.C0849D9C Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sure - that an implementation of a CAPWAP WTP - = have it=20 support both based on the SSID (or some other means that should be = outside the=20 scope of the document).
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: Michael Montemurro=20 [mailto:michael.montemurro@siemens.com]
Sent: Monday, = August 08,=20 2005 1:05 PM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); Sadot, Emek (Emek); = partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

Emek,=20 Pat
One possible=20 solution to this problem would be to take a Local MAC approach, but = configure=20 the tunnel on a logical network basis. For instance, traffic for=20 one logical network would be bridged locally at the WTP and = traffic for=20 another logical network would be tunnelled to the=20 AC. 
 
The = WTP would be=20 configured as Local MAC. Tunnelling would be configured on a logical = network=20 basis.
 
Cheers,
 
   =20 Mike


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: August 8, 2005 10:09 AM
To: = Sadot, Emek=20 (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE:=20 [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the = WTP

Emek,
 
> = I am=20 not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I = would argue=20 that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20
> and provide a mechanism = to=20 facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either = tunnel data=20 packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
We support this. It's called Split or Local = MAC. I=20 think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this = scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then = we've=20 addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to = address the=20 same deployment scenarios in more than one way.
 
Pat=20 Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco=20 Systems
 


From: Sadot, Emek (Emek)=20 [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 8:41=20 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I agree that adding this mode would complicate the = protocol,=20 nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to = support=20 such effort. With your permission I'll name a = few:
 
Consider a customer's facilities which span=20 over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or=20 insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be = native to=20 assume that for such customers the AC would reside at = the HQ /=20 main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /
dept.=20 buildings.
a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits = of=20 avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the = same WTP=20 to traverse the AC.
b. If the=20 branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would = consider better=20 if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit = the AC=20 first.
 
WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with = a WiMAX as=20 a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that = offering an=20 option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base = station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back = would=20 better meet real-time application = requirements.
 
Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The = Bluetooth pico=20 cell communication is confined within the cell by=20 definition.
 
Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the=20 group mandate an association between the = CAPWAP protocol,=20 which is a control protocol, and the user's data=20 flow.
 
I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split = MAC arch.=20 I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's = best for=20 him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing = the AC to=20 program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC = or bridge=20 them locally.
 
Regards,
Emek 


From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun = (pacalhou)
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28=20 AM
To: partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft = defines two=20 modes of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged),=20 and
2. Split MAC = (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two = modes. If the=20 group feels more would be required, we should understand the = application=20 and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the = problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless = Networking=20 Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August = 03, 2005=20 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing=20 in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split = between the=20 WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP = (Darren’s=20 slide says “local MAC with local bridging”, but this = was really a typo=20 and should have read, according to Darren, “split MAC with = local=20 bridging”). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP = draft because=20 we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good = if one of=20 the eval team members presented a clarification on why they = concluded=20 such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could = also get=20 WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and = is=20 required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59C61.C0849D9C-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 09 14:03:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E2YRX-0007D3-EG for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:03:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26634 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060B0203A3; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7AC202DB; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:03:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC28202DB for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D67202C8 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j79HnQpt016259 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:49:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com (h198-152-6-52.avaya.com [198.152.6.52]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j79Hn8pt015849 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:49:11 -0400 (EDT) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59D0C.690AC718" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <5844A41F4E146044A2E8356C6328588009446E76@nj7460avexu2.global.avaya.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWX+1qMHCzB1pLpRnCX4GaPRp5rqQAIs9rQAGwRXiAAlQAAYAALya3wAAP6RDAAKlz2kA== From: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:01:47 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D0C.690AC718 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would rather see a flexible WTP that can be administered by the AC to bridge / tunnel user date, in this case a customer would be able to reuse its gear if shift in customer's architecture is needed. =20 Other then that if you use a mix and match approach, or DS at the WTP, then the CAPWAP protocol should be able to compensate on the lose of user's data visibility to the AC, which means that the WTP shall send info gather from looking at the user's data traffic via the CAPWAP protocol to the AC. =20 Emek=20 _____ =20 From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:39 PM To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Deploy Local MAC WTPs at that site. That what our customers are doing - use a mix/match approach. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Sadot, Emek (Emek) Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:55 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 Pat, =20 Let me drew you a hypothetical scenario: say a customer deployed ACs which employed Split MAC architecture in its main cites. After a while the customer wants to expend its CAPWAP model to remote offices by installing remote AP (AC stay at the HQs), but to bridge voice calls to the local PSTN at the remote office. What your recommendation to this customer would be? =20 Regards, Emek _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:09 AM To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 Emek, =20 > I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20 > and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =09 =20 We support this. It's called Split or Local MAC. I think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same deployment scenarios in more than one way. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 _____ =20 From: Sadot, Emek (Emek) [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:41 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few: =20 Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /=20 dept. buildings. a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC. b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first. =20 WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements. =20 Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition. =20 Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow. =20 I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 Regards, Emek=20 _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) =20 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D0C.690AC718 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 would rather see a flexible WTP that can be administered by the AC to = bridge /=20 tunnel user date, in this case a customer would be able to reuse=20 its gear if shift in customer's architecture is=20 needed.
 
Other=20 then that if you use a mix and match approach, or DS at the WTP, then = the CAPWAP=20 protocol should be able to compensate on the lose of user's data = visibility=20 to the AC, which means that the WTP shall send info gather = from=20 looking at the user's data traffic via the CAPWAP protocol to the=20 AC.
 
Emek 


From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20 [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 = 5:39=20 PM
To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local = bridging at the WTP

Deploy Local MAC WTPs at that site. That what = our customers=20 are doing - use a mix/match approach.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Sadot, Emek=20 (Emek)
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:55 PM
To: = Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

Pat,
 
Let=20 me drew you a hypothetical scenario: say a customer deployed ACs = which=20 employed Split MAC architecture in its main cites. After a=20 while the customer wants to expend its CAPWAP model to = remote=20 offices by installing remote AP (AC stay at the HQs), but to = bridge voice=20 calls to the local PSTN at the remote office.
What=20 your recommendation to this customer would be?
 
Regards,
Emek


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:09 = AM
To:=20 Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

Emek,
 
> I am not = opposing=20 implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that = we should=20 allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20
> and provide a mechanism to = facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel = data=20 packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
We support this. It's called Split or Local = MAC. I think=20 that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this = scenario (and=20 the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed = these=20 deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same = deployment=20 scenarios in more than one way.
 
Pat = Calhoun
CTO,=20 Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco Systems
 


From: Sadot, Emek (Emek)=20 [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 8:41=20 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I=20 agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, = nevertheless one=20 can envision a landscape of applications to support such = effort. With=20 your permission I'll name a few:
 
Consider a customer's facilities which span=20 over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or = insurance=20 company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to = assume that=20 for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main = building=20 where the WTP are in the branch offices /
dept.=20 buildings.
a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of = avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same = WTP=20 to traverse the AC.
b. If the=20 branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would = consider better if=20 the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC=20 first.
 
WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a = WiMAX as a=20 backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that = offering an=20 option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base=20 station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back = would=20 better meet real-time application requirements.
 
Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The = Bluetooth pico=20 cell communication is confined within the cell by=20 definition.
 
Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the = group mandate=20 an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a = control=20 protocol, and the user's data flow.
 
I=20 am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I = would=20 argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for = him, and=20 provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to = program=20 the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
Regards,
Emek 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 = AM
To:=20 partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: = [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the = WTP

I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines = two=20 modes of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged), = and
2. Split MAC (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two modes. = If the=20 group feels more would be required, we should understand the = application and=20 use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the=20 problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless = Networking Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, = 2005=20 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing=20 in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split = between the=20 WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP = (Darren’s slide=20 says “local MAC with local bridging”, but this was = really a typo and=20 should have read, according to Darren, “split MAC with local = bridging”).=20 This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we = were not=20 sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the = eval team=20 members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a = mode was=20 required. It would be even better if we could also get WG=20 discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is = required=20 to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol. =

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D0C.690AC718-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 09 14:07:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E2YVx-0000sG-AG for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:07:49 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26842 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33981203A6; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EEB202DB; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:07:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B695202DB for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0AF6202C8 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Aug 2005 11:06:32 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,92,1122879600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="203782964:sNHT60347062" Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j79I6HZ5019208; Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:06:22 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C59D0D.0CD04234" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A27FB465@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP Thread-Index: AcWX+1qMHCzB1pLpRnCX4GaPRp5rqQAIs9rQAGwRXiAAlQAAYAALya3wAAP6RDAAKlz2kAAAfjBA From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Sadot, Emek (Emek)" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2005 18:06:22.0855 (UTC) FILETIME=[0D05D970:01C59D0D] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:06:21 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D0D.0CD04234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree we should allow for a WTP to operate in either the Local or Split MAC mode - but this should be an implementation of the protocol, as long as the protocol is capable of supporting it. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Sadot, Emek (Emek) Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:02 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I would rather see a flexible WTP that can be administered by the AC to bridge / tunnel user date, in this case a customer would be able to reuse its gear if shift in customer's architecture is needed. =20 Other then that if you use a mix and match approach, or DS at the WTP, then the CAPWAP protocol should be able to compensate on the lose of user's data visibility to the AC, which means that the WTP shall send info gather from looking at the user's data traffic via the CAPWAP protocol to the AC. =20 Emek=20 ________________________________ From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:39 PM To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 Deploy Local MAC WTPs at that site. That what our customers are doing - use a mix/match approach. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Sadot, Emek (Emek) Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:55 PM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 Pat, =20 Let me drew you a hypothetical scenario: say a customer deployed ACs which employed Split MAC architecture in its main cites. After a while the customer wants to expend its CAPWAP model to remote offices by installing remote AP (AC stay at the HQs), but to bridge voice calls to the local PSTN at the remote office. What your recommendation to this customer would be? =20 Regards, Emek ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:09 AM To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 Emek, =20 > I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20 > and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =09 =20 We support this. It's called Split or Local MAC. I think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then we've addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to address the same deployment scenarios in more than one way. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: Sadot, Emek (Emek) [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]=20 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:41 AM To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree that adding this mode would complicate the protocol, nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to support such effort. With your permission I'll name a few: =20 Consider a customer's facilities which span over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be native to assume that for such customers the AC would reside at the HQ / main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /=20 dept. buildings. a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits of avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the same WTP to traverse the AC. b. If the branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would consider better if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit the AC first. =20 WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with a WiMAX as a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that offering an option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back would better meet real-time application requirements. =20 Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The Bluetooth pico cell communication is confined within the cell by definition. =20 Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the group mandate an association between the CAPWAP protocol, which is a control protocol, and the user's data flow. =20 I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC or bridge them locally. =20 Regards, Emek=20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28 AM To: partha@arubanetworks.com; capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 I agree with Partha that adding this mode simply complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft defines two modes of operation: 1. Local MAC (locally bridged), and 2. Split MAC (tunneled) =20 I think we should stick to those two modes. If the group feels more would be required, we should understand the application and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the problems. =20 Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of partha@arubanetworks.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:17 AM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP =09 =09 During the CAPWAP session on Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as missing in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split between the WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP (Darren's slide says "local MAC with local bridging", but this was really a typo and should have read, according to Darren, "split MAC with local bridging"). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP draft because we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good if one of the eval team members presented a clarification on why they concluded such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could also get WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and is required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20 Thanks partha =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D0D.0CD04234 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree we should allow for a WTP to operate in = either the=20 Local or Split MAC mode - but this should be an implementation of the = protocol,=20 as long as the protocol is capable of supporting it.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Sadot, Emek=20 (Emek)
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:02 AM
To: = Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I=20 would rather see a flexible WTP that can be administered by the AC to = bridge /=20 tunnel user date, in this case a customer would be able to reuse=20 its gear if shift in customer's architecture is=20 needed.
 
Other then that if you use a mix and match approach, or DS at = the WTP,=20 then the CAPWAP protocol should be able to compensate on the lose=20 of user's data visibility to the AC, which means that=20 the WTP shall send info gather from looking at the user's = data=20 traffic via the CAPWAP protocol to the AC.
 
Emek 


From: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)=20 [mailto:pcalhoun@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 = 5:39=20 PM
To: Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

Deploy Local MAC WTPs at that site. That what = our=20 customers are doing - use a mix/match approach.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking = Business=20 Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Sadot, Emek=20 (Emek)
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:55 = PM
To: Pat=20 Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

Pat,
 
Let me drew you a hypothetical scenario: say a customer=20 deployed ACs which employed Split MAC architecture in its main=20 cites. After a while the customer wants to expend its = CAPWAP=20 model to remote offices by installing remote AP (AC stay at the = HQs), but to=20 bridge voice calls to the local PSTN at the remote=20 office.
What your recommendation to this customer would=20 be?
 
Regards,
Emek


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun=20 (pacalhou)
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:09 = AM
To:=20 Sadot, Emek (Emek); partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

Emek,
 
> = I am=20 not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split MAC arch. I = would argue=20 that we should allow the customer to decide what's best for him,=20
> and provide a mechanism = to=20 facilitate that by allowing the AC to program the WTP to either = tunnel data=20 packets to the AC or bridge them=20 locally.
 
We support this. It's called Split or Local = MAC. I=20 think that we need to limit the number of modes, and given that this = scenario (and the rest below) are addressed in Local MAC mode, then = we've=20 addressed these deployments. I don't believe there is a need to = address the=20 same deployment scenarios in more than one way.
 
Pat=20 Calhoun
CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit
Cisco=20 Systems
 


From: Sadot, Emek (Emek)=20 [mailto:esadot@avaya.com]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 8:41=20 AM
To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); partha@arubanetworks.com; = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I agree that adding this mode would complicate the = protocol,=20 nevertheless one can envision a landscape of applications to = support=20 such effort. With your permission I'll name a = few:
 
Consider a customer's facilities which span=20 over multiple sites, say a regional bank, investment or=20 insurance company, or even a campus. Now, it would only be = native to=20 assume that for such customers the AC would reside at = the HQ /=20 main building where the WTP are in the branch offices /
dept.=20 buildings.
a. I would say that one could appreciate the merits = of=20 avoiding a voice call between two people associate to the = same WTP=20 to traverse the AC.
b. If the=20 branch office has a leg to the local PSTN, it would = consider better=20 if the call can be routed directly to the PSTN in oppose to hit = the AC=20 first.
 
WiMAX: two topologies (a) 802.11 Mesh networks with = a WiMAX as=20 a backhaul and (b) greenfields WiMAX. I believe that = offering an=20 option to bridge sessions locally in the WiMAX base = station rather then to tunnel the session to the AC and back = would=20 better meet real-time application = requirements.
 
Bluetooth: same arguments applies here. The = Bluetooth pico=20 cell communication is confined within the cell by=20 definition.
 
Other then that I find it a bit troubling that the=20 group mandate an association between the = CAPWAP protocol,=20 which is a control protocol, and the user's data=20 flow.
 
I am not opposing implementing the DS in the AC for Split = MAC arch.=20 I would argue that we should allow the customer to decide what's = best for=20 him, and provide a mechanism to facilitate that by allowing = the AC to=20 program the WTP to either tunnel data packets to the AC = or bridge=20 them locally.
 
Regards,
Emek 


From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Pat Calhoun = (pacalhou)
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:28=20 AM
To: partha@arubanetworks.com;=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Split-MAC with = local=20 bridging at the WTP

I agree with Partha that adding this mode = simply=20 complicates the protocol. The Taxonomy Recommendation draft = defines two=20 modes of operation:
1. Local MAC (locally bridged),=20 and
2. Split MAC = (tunneled)
 
I think we should stick to those two = modes. If the=20 group feels more would be required, we should understand the = application=20 and use cases - and why the above two groups cannot solve the = problems.
 

Pat Calhoun
CTO, Wireless = Networking=20 Business Unit
Cisco Systems

 


From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of=20 partha@arubanetworks.com
Sent: Wednesday, August = 03, 2005=20 12:17 AM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: = [Capwap]=20 Split-MAC with local bridging at the WTP

During the CAPWAP = session on=20 Monday, one of the issues that Darren and the eval team noted as = missing=20 in the current SLAPP draft is a mode where the MAC is split = between the=20 WTP and the AC, but the data traffic is bridged at the WTP = (Darren’s=20 slide says “local MAC with local bridging”, but this = was really a typo=20 and should have read, according to Darren, “split MAC with = local=20 bridging”). This mode is not defined in the current SLAPP = draft because=20 we were not sure what this mode really meant. It would be good = if one of=20 the eval team members presented a clarification on why they = concluded=20 such a mode was required. It would be even better if we could = also get=20 WG discussion/consensus on whether such a mode is meaningful and = is=20 required to be supported in any CAPWAP protocol.=20

Thanks

partha

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C59D0D.0CD04234-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Fri Aug 12 17:11:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E3go5-0004QR-Ol for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:11:16 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03437 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FCC20495; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42AF20477; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:11:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A4920477 for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.centerbeam.com (smtp4.centerbeam.com [63.120.115.248]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDD42044E for ; Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CBA0E2K01.CBA0.centerbeam.com ([64.95.101.24]) by smtp4.centerbeam.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:13:41 -0700 Received: from CBA0E2K06.CBA0.centerbeam.com ([64.95.101.40]) by CBA0E2K01.CBA0.centerbeam.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:09:24 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: re: [Capwap] questions for eval team Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=SHA1; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0119_01C59F4F.F2A7C080" Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: re: [Capwap] questions for eval team Thread-Index: AcWfgj09IQzSvgMEQUGnEbFeo+orEw== From: "Darren Loher" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Aug 2005 21:09:24.0199 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DA73770:01C59F82] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:10:18 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0119_01C59F4F.F2A7C080 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_011A_01C59F4F.F2A7C080" ------=_NextPart_001_011A_01C59F4F.F2A7C080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan, Sorry for the terse answer, but we will address this in detail in the coming evaluation draft. We can discuss it after the draft comes out. Thanks for the patience! -Darren [. Dan Harkins dharkins@trpz.com wrote .] Hi, The evaluation team came up with Ps for SLAPP compliance in two areas in which the SLAPP self-evaluation came up with Cs. I'm curious if the evaluation team could explain how SLAPP did not fully comply with: 5.1.7 Resource Control 5.1.12 Protocol Specification I think I understand why 5.1.5 Firmware Trigger was given a P and the SLAPP self-evaluation gave it a P as well. thanks, Dan. ------=_NextPart_001_011A_01C59F4F.F2A7C080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dan,
 =
;
Sorry for =
the terse answer, but we will address this in detail in the coming evalua=
tion draft.  We can discuss it after the draft comes out.  Than=
ks for the patience!
 =
;
-Darren
 =
;
[… D=
an Harkins dharkins@trpz.com  wrote …]
<= pre> = ;
Hi,
 =
;
  The=
 evaluation team came up with Ps for SLAPP compliance in two
areas in w=
hich the SLAPP self-evaluation came up with Cs. I'm
curious if=
 the evaluation team could explain how SLAPP did not
fully comp=
ly with:
 =
;
 &nbs=
p;  5.1.7 Resource Control
 &nbs=
p;  5.1.12 Protocol Specification
 = ;
I think I =
understand why 5.1.5 Firmware Trigger was given a P and=
the SLAPP =
self-evaluation gave it a P as well.
<=
font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"> =
;
  tha=
nks,
 =
;
  Dan=
=2E

 

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From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 15 21:05:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E4ptD-0006Cs-8m for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:05:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA17499 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050D8204DB; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26EA204CB; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:05:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34475204CB for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE542044A for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Aug 2005 18:04:06 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,109,1122879600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="332479720:sNHT40027516" Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j7G13iQa020316 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:03:59 -0700 Received: from gdommety-w2k05.cisco.com ([128.107.178.142]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:03:58 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20050815175704.03477ed8@email.cisco.com> X-Sender: gdommety@email.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: capwap@frascone.com From: Gopal Dommety Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_31783021==_.ALT" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Aug 2005 01:03:58.0676 (UTC) FILETIME=[61EF3940:01C5A1FE] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:03:57 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) --=====================_31783021==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All, During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? Regards, -Gopal --=====================_31783021==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is  implemented significantly.  I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered?



Regards,
-Gopal
--=====================_31783021==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 16 01:27:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E4tyj-0005Z9-AQ for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:27:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA07621 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3E8204EF; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE567204CE; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:27:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F7E204CE for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EACB2044A for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j7G5E1pt028423 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cof110avexu1.global.avaya.com (h135-9-6-16.avaya.com [135.9.6.16]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j7G5E0pt028410 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:14:00 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A223.1BF8445C" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWh/pXAXA5vC/p2T7q28JNZ0MtKOQAI2zyQ From: "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" To: "Gopal Dommety" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:26:52 -0600 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A223.1BF8445C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's no emphasis yet to running code - at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion. =20 One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions - given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. =20 -mani _____ =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 Hello All, During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? Regards,=20 -Gopal=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A223.1BF8445C Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There’s no emphasis yet to = running code – at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation = criterion.

 

One way to look at this is that as = many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and = the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by = itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions – given most of the candidate protocol specs kept = evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF = sessions.

 

-mani


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, = 2005 6:04 PM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP = Proposals

 

Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized that some of = the submitted proposals might differ from what is  implemented significantly.  I was wondering if there is any documentation of = the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as = submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols = being considered?


Regards,

-Gopal

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A223.1BF8445C-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 16 14:35:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E56HO-0003Wt-KD for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:35:19 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27595 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35B820502; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C3BA204FA; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:35:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE50204FA for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CEE203E7 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Aug 2005 11:34:12 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j7GIXSQu006660; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:34:07 -0700 Received: from gdommety-w2k05.cisco.com ([64.101.25.220]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:34:06 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20050816111652.03754798@email.cisco.com> X-Sender: gdommety@email.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" From: Gopal Dommety Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Cc: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_94791512==_.ALT" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Aug 2005 18:34:06.0838 (UTC) FILETIME=[15B9C160:01C5A291] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:34:06 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) --=====================_94791512==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected. I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However, Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability. Cheers, -Gopal At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote: >There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective >or Evaluation criterion. > > > >One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation >experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to >identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has >been something to converge on; before contemplating possible >implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept >evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. > > > >-mani > >From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On >Behalf Of Gopal Dommety >Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM >To: capwap@frascone.com >Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals > > > >Hello All, > >During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals >might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if >there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the >CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" >for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? > > >Regards, > >-Gopal --=====================_94791512==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised  that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.

I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However,  Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability.

Cheers,
-Gopal

At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote:

There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion.

 

One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions.

 

-mani

From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is  implemented significantly.  I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered?


Regards,

-Gopal
--=====================_94791512==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 16 23:24:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5EXG-0008Tx-K3 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:24:14 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA03614 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC35520502; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:24:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E539E20437; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:24:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A5520437 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mei.co.jp (smtp1.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.26]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A86C203DF for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp2.mei.co.jp (8.12.10/3.7W/bulls) with ESMTP id j7H3M9Jb002136; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:22:09 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id j7H3MCI04001; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:22:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/astros) with ESMTP id j7H3MBo21147; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:22:11 +0900 (JST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A2DA.BBAF1AF4" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD51E8D3@pslexc01.psl.local> Thread-topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWikSS022xpNDJLROqNALCD8zPL7wARo07g From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Gopal Dommety" , "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" Cc: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:19:55 +0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A2DA.BBAF1AF4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gopal, =20 Having running code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the top priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us from the real goal. =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34 AM To: Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 =09 Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.=20 =09 I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However, Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability.=20 =09 Cheers, -Gopal =09 At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote: =09 =09 There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion. =09 =20 =09 One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. =09 =20 =09 -mani =09 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 =20 =09 Hello All, =09 During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? =09 =09 Regards,=20 =09 -Gopal=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A2DA.BBAF1AF4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Gopal,
 
Having=20 running code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common = objective details and selection criteria, running code means nothing.=20 Interoperability is achieved by a well defined specification, not = the=20 implementation of that specification (the running code). People can = implement the IP ugly, but it should still be able to interoperate with = other IP=20 nodes. I guess the top priority now is to work on a specification that = contains=20 features to meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now = will=20 just deviate us from the real goal.
 
cheers
 
Cheng=20 Hong
 
 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A2DA.BBAF1AF4-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 17 10:59:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5POA-0004zU-Oj for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:59:35 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA06005 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8FC2050D; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C110D2045A; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:59:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7EA2045A for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:58:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.centerbeam.com (smtp4.centerbeam.com [63.120.115.248]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F25612035E for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cba0e2k00.CBA0.centerbeam.com ([64.95.101.25]) by smtp4.centerbeam.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:01:28 -0700 Received: from CBA0E2K06.CBA0.centerbeam.com ([64.95.101.40]) by cba0e2k00.CBA0.centerbeam.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:58:01 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A33B.E8DEB50A" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWikSS022xpNDJLROqNALCD8zPL7wARo07gABitmFA= From: "Darren Loher" To: "Cheng Hong" , "Gopal Dommety" , "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Aug 2005 14:58:01.0357 (UTC) FILETIME=[101C1BD0:01C5A33C] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:58:00 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A33B.E8DEB50A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the tenets of the IETF is "running code". This is in fact a requirement to elevating a draft to a draft-standard. It is also (on the "soft-side") a measure of strength and value for a given standard when it is in place. We are not at that stage yet, but it is a hurdle that will need to be overcome to get a standard. =20 From BCP 9 / rfc2026: 4.1.2 Draft Standard =20 A specification from which at least two independent and interoperable implementations from different code bases have been developed, and for which sufficient successful operational experience has been obtained, may be elevated to the "Draft Standard" level. For the purposes of this section, "interoperable" means to be functionally equivalent or interchangeable components of the system or process in which they are used. If patented or otherwise controlled technology is required for implementation, the separate implementations must also have resulted from separate exercise of the licensing process. Elevation to Draft Standard is a major advance in status, indicating a strong belief that the specification is mature and will be useful. =20 The requirement for at least two independent and interoperable implementations applies to all of the options and features of the specification. In cases in which one or more options or features have not been demonstrated in at least two interoperable implementations, the specification may advance to the Draft Standard level only if those options or features are removed. =20 The Working Group chair is responsible for documenting the specific implementations which qualify the specification for Draft or Internet Standard status along with documentation about testing of the interoperation of these implementations. The documentation must include information about the support of each of the individual options and features. This documentation should be submitted to the Area Director with the protocol action request. (see Section 6) =20 =20 =20 =20 -Darren =20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng Hong Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:20 PM To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 Hi Gopal, =20 Having running code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the top priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us from the real goal. =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34 AM To: Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.=20 =09 I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However, Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability.=20 =09 Cheers, -Gopal =09 At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote: =09 =09 =09 There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion. =09 =20 =09 One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. =09 =20 =09 -mani =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 =20 =09 Hello All, =09 During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? =09 =09 Regards,=20 =09 -Gopal=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A33B.E8DEB50A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One of the tenets of the IETF is = 220;running code”.  This is in fact a requirement to elevating a draft to = a draft-standard.  It is also (on the “soft-side”) a measure of strength and val= ue for a given standard when it is in place.  We are not at that stage yet,= but it is a hurdle that will need to be overcome to get a standard.

 

From BCP 9 / rfc2026:

4.1.2  Draft Standard
 =
;
 &nbs=
p; A specification from which at least two independent and interoperable<=
o:p>
 &nbs=
p; implementations from different code bases have been developed, and
 &nbs=
p; for which sufficient successful operational experience has been
 &nbs=
p; obtained, may be elevated to the "Draft Standard" level.&nbs=
p; For the
 &nbs=
p; purposes of this section, "interoperable" means to be functi=
onally
 &nbs=
p; equivalent or interchangeable components of the system or process in
 &nbs=
p; which they are used.  If patented or otherwise controlled technol=
ogy
 &nbs=
p; is required for implementation, the separate implementations must=
 &nbs=
p; also have resulted from separate exercise of the licensing process.
 &nbs=
p; Elevation to Draft Standard is a major advance in status, indicating
 &nbs=
p; a strong belief that the specification is mature and will be useful.
 =
;
 &nbs=
p; The requirement for at least two independent and interoperable
 &nbs=
p; implementations applies to all of the options and features of the=
 &nbs=
p; specification.  In cases in which one or more options or features=
 &nbs=
p; have not been demonstrated in at least two interoperable
 &nbs=
p; implementations, the specification may advance to the Draft Standard
 &nbs=
p; level only if those options or features are removed.=
 =
;
 &nbs=
p; The Working Group chair is responsible for documenting the specific
 &nbs=
p; implementations which qualify the specification for Draft or Internet<=
o:p>
 &nbs=
p; Standard status along with documentation about testing of the
 &nbs=
p; interoperation of these implementations.  The documentation must<=
o:p>
 &nbs=
p; include information about the support of each of the individual
 &nbs=
p; options and features.  This documentation should be submitted to =
the
 &nbs=
p; Area Director with the protocol action request. (see Section 6)
 =
;

 

 

 

-Darren

=

 

 


From: capwap= -admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On= Behalf Of Cheng Hong
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, = 2005 9:20 PM
To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exis= iting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals
=

 

Hi Gopal,

 

Having running code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is achie= ved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, = but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the top= priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to meet= our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us f= rom the real goal.

 

cheers

 

Cheng Hong<= /p>

 

 

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Wednesday, August 17= , 2005 2:34 AM
To: Mani, Mahalingam (Maha= lingam)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exis= iting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals
=


Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised  that there is no n= eed for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.

I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However,  Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specificatio= ns and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability. =

Cheers,
-Gopal

At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote:


There s no emphasis yet to running c= ode at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion.

 

One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focu= s was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself ha= s been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite = a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions.

 

-mani

 

From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2= 005 6:04 PM
To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisitin= g Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals mig= ht differ from what is  implemented significantly.  I was wonderin= g if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of th= e CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered?


Regards,

-Gopal

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A33B.E8DEB50A-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 17 19:37:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5XT7-0001wu-LD for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:37:13 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA12326 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908042052C; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0557F2048E; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:37:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8AC2048E for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3198820477 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7HNNhSE022316; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:23:44 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508172323.j7HNNhSE022316@stout.trpz.com> To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT." <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC687424@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <22314.1124321023.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:23:43 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Bob, After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of Airespace's AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your operational AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received certification for your APs by running code on them that is not your's and is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is loaded onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them with this new code load. So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is just an unfortunate bunch of FUD. Dan. On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just because > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > > > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has everything to > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual operations > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the network, > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poked into > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for ease of > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protocol that > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC to > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a software > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal to > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without the > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other regulatory > domains, as well. > > > -Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification > > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. > > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but that's > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore whether > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAPWAP. > > Dan. > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about > the > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he > was > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would > like > > to discuss this further on the list. > > > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code > is > > not from the entity that received the original certification for the > > device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, > > third party code. > > > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also > be > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon > vendors. > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory > > certification with every AC vendor. > > > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for > an > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. > It > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > sufficient > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model > > numbers. > > > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry > for > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number > of > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > > > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely > > interoperable products. > > > > -Bob > > > > Bob O'Hara > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 17 20:06:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5XvA-00085b-Bs for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:06:12 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA13706 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C94E20528; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E33204B1; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:06:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6B120523 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stout.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D26C204B1 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by stout.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7HNr0Gv022393; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:53:00 -0700 (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508172353.j7HNr0Gv022393@stout.trpz.com> To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:40:13 PDT." <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A278ADDD@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <22391.1124322780.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:53:00 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Pat, That's not how I read it. I read it to say that security features must be incorporated to prevent unauthorized modifications to the software. The software defined radio is in the downloaded, bootable image. These are requirements placed on the software. It does state that, "equipment that is designed or expected to be MODIFIED BY A PARTY OTHER THAN THE MANUFACTURER must be certified as a software defined radio...." (emphasis mine). So the expectation of the FCC is that equipment will capable of being modified by someone who is not the manufacturer. Being defined as a software defined radio, that equipment must prevent impremissible modifications to the radio software and one of the ways to do so is "the use of a private network that allows only authenticated users to download software." SLAPP addresses this by performing the authentication step prior to image download. So only authenticated users, aka ACs, can download images onto the WTP. The security features to prevent unauthorized modification of the software are a requirement on the software that was downloaded onto the WTP. Furthermore it also appears that a software defined radio must ensure that the radio cannot be used to transmit outside authorized frequency bands. So it looks like the ability to change the country code of a WTP using LWAPP violates this rule. Dan. On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:40:13 PDT you wrote > Dan, > > Please find the text of section (b. Security requirements for software > defined radios) under page 19 of the FCC's Cognitive Radio R&O, which > can be found at > http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-57A1.pdf > > Basically what it says is that the manufacturer has to provide measures > that prevent "wrong" downloads/updates and it says that the FCC must get > insight into the SDR code being distributed/downloaded. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 1:00 AM > > To: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Comments on today's meeting > > > > Pat, > > > > I'm not making accusations on you or your company, merely > > pointing out that "Cisco and Airespace" are not two different > > things. And also that I was pretty badly misquoted in your > > post as well. > > > > Regarding what you feel the real issue here is, image > > download is very useful. If it is possible to use it in a way > > that could get someone in legal trouble in some jurisdiction > > on this planet I don't think is something we should care > > about. (Note that I do not agree that it is illegal only > > admitting that certain people-- like you-- feel that way). > > LWAPP allows for the country code to be changed. Therefore I > > could use LWAPP to do something illegal. Does that mean that > > setting of the country code in LWAPP should be removed? No, I > > don't think so. Same for image download. It's very useful and > > we should provide that functionality. > > We are providing tools, like a screwdriver. If someone uses a > > valid tool for an illegal purpose, like stabbing someone in > > the neck, that isn't the fault of the tool designer. > > > > Dan. > > > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:11:58 PDT you wrote > > > Dan, > > > > > > Putting aside all of the various accusations, both personal > > and to my > > > company, let me at least address the real issues here. > > > > > > In order to support 802.11k, the AC sends the relevant ACTION frame > > > through the WTP to the STA. The STA will respond, which > > will make it > > > back to the AC. There is no need to involve the WTP in this > > manner. If > > > data needs to be added to a beacon, then you are correct > > that a change > > > is required. We could simply address this by using a > > generic "Beacon > > > Data" which is sent from the AC to the WTP. > > > > > > I believe that all (or nearly all) protocols support a download > > > mechanism. The primary differences are how we view this download > > > mechanism as providing value. While I view this as a method for AP > > > firmware to be upgraded by the manufacturer, you see this > > as a method > > > to allow for proprietary protocols to be pushed on the WTP. > > The issues > > > raised here are real and cannot be ignored. If a customer > > (or vendor) > > > wants to hijack APs with their own firmware and deal with the legal > > > consequences, then so be it, but I don't believe that the > > IETF needs > > > to get involved or condone this behavior. > > > > > > Pat Calhoun > > > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 17 22:35:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5aFP-0004HY-Iy for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:35:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA20510 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACEA2052C; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B99204C1; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:35:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208B7204C1 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mei.co.jp (smtp1.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.26]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A37820389 for ; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (dodgers.mei.co.jp [157.8.1.150]) by smtp2.mei.co.jp (8.12.10/3.7W/bulls) with ESMTP id j7I2XKJb019378; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:33:20 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id j7I2XNi07639; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:33:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from pslexc01.psl.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/mariners) with ESMTP id j7I2XMH20182; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:33:22 +0900 (JST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A39C.EFD790CF" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <5F09D220B62F79418461A978CA0921BD51EA7D@pslexc01.psl.local> Thread-topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWikSS022xpNDJLROqNALCD8zPL7wARo07gABitmFAAF6vQ0A== From: "Cheng Hong" To: "Darren Loher" , "Gopal Dommety" , "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" Cc: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:31:06 +0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A39C.EFD790CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Darren, =20 Thanks for dig out that text. Would like to point out that the text is about bring a specification to the draft standard. Something described there doesn't really apply to the down selection process (e.g. about the remove of options). Also, as pointed out by the Chair and yourself, we are not at that stage yet. Do we have "at least two independent implementation" for each of the proposal now? (I guess this was already debated in other thread. Seems none of the proposal qualified for that) So, how should the "running code" be used for the down selection? I don't think we can simply dictate that one proposal is better since it has two implementations, and others are bad. Therefore, I would like to argue against putting "emphasis to running code" AT THIS STAGE. =20 =20 cheers =20 Cheng=20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Darren Loher Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:58 PM To: Cheng Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 =09 One of the tenets of the IETF is "running code". This is in fact a requirement to elevating a draft to a draft-standard. It is also (on the "soft-side") a measure of strength and value for a given standard when it is in place. We are not at that stage yet, but it is a hurdle that will need to be overcome to get a standard. =20 From BCP 9 / rfc2026: 4.1.2 Draft Standard =20 A specification from which at least two independent and interoperable implementations from different code bases have been developed, and for which sufficient successful operational experience has been obtained, may be elevated to the "Draft Standard" level. For the purposes of this section, "interoperable" means to be functionally equivalent or interchangeable components of the system or process in which they are used. If patented or otherwise controlled technology is required for implementation, the separate implementations must also have resulted from separate exercise of the licensing process. Elevation to Draft Standard is a major advance in status, indicating a strong belief that the specification is mature and will be useful. =20 The requirement for at least two independent and interoperable implementations applies to all of the options and features of the specification. In cases in which one or more options or features have not been demonstrated in at least two interoperable implementations, the specification may advance to the Draft Standard level only if those options or features are removed. =20 The Working Group chair is responsible for documenting the specific implementations which qualify the specification for Draft or Internet Standard status along with documentation about testing of the interoperation of these implementations. The documentation must include information about the support of each of the individual options and features. This documentation should be submitted to the Area Director with the protocol action request. (see Section 6) =20 =20 =20 =20 -Darren =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng Hong Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:20 PM To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 Hi Gopal, =20 Having running code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the top priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us from the real goal. =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34 AM To: Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.=20 =09 I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However, Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability.=20 =09 Cheers, -Gopal =09 At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote: =09 =09 =09 There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion. =09 =20 =09 One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. =09 =20 =09 -mani =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 =20 =09 Hello All, =09 During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? =09 =09 Regards,=20 =09 -Gopal=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A39C.EFD790CF Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Darren,
 
Thanks=20 for dig out that text. Would like to point out that the text is = about bring a=20 specification to the draft standard. Something described there doesn't = really=20 apply to the down selection process (e.g. about the remove of = options).=20 Also, as pointed out by the Chair and yourself, we are not = at that=20 stage yet. Do we have "at least two independent implementation" for each = of the=20 proposal now? (I guess this was already debated in other thread. Seems = none of=20 the proposal qualified for that) So, how should the "running code" = be used=20 for the down selection? I don't think we can simply dictate that one = proposal is=20 better since it has two implementations, and others are bad. Therefore, = I would=20 like to argue against putting "emphasis to running code" AT THIS=20 STAGE.
 
 
cheers
 
Cheng=20
 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Darren=20 Loher
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 10:58 = PM
To: Cheng=20 Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting=20 Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

One of the = tenets of=20 the IETF is “running code”.  This is in fact a = requirement to elevating a=20 draft to a draft-standard.  It is also (on the = “soft-side”) a measure of=20 strength and value for a given standard when it is in place.  We = are not=20 at that stage yet, but it is a hurdle that will need to be overcome to = get a=20 standard.

 

From BCP 9 = /=20 rfc2026:

4.1.2  Draft =
Standard
 
   A =
specification from which at least two independent and =
interoperable
   =
implementations from different code bases have been developed, =
and
   for which =
sufficient successful operational experience has =
been
   obtained, may be =
elevated to the "Draft Standard" level.  For =
the
   purposes of this =
section, "interoperable" means to be =
functionally
   equivalent or =
interchangeable components of the system or process =
in
   which they are =
used.  If patented or otherwise controlled =
technology
   is required for =
implementation, the separate implementations =
must
   also have resulted =
from separate exercise of the licensing =
process.
   Elevation to Draft =
Standard is a major advance in status, =
indicating
   a strong belief =
that the specification is mature and will be =
useful.
 
   The =
requirement for at least two independent and =
interoperable
   =
implementations applies to all of the options and features of =
the
   =
specification.  In cases in which one or more options or =
features
   have not been =
demonstrated in at least two =
interoperable
   =
implementations, the specification may advance to the Draft =
Standard
   level only if =
those options or features are =
removed.
 
   The Working =
Group chair is responsible for documenting the =
specific
   implementations =
which qualify the specification for Draft or =
Internet
   Standard status =
along with documentation about testing of =
the
   interoperation of =
these implementations.  The documentation =
must
   include =
information about the support of each of the =
individual
   options and =
features.  This documentation should be submitted to =
the
   Area Director with =
the protocol action request. (see Section =
6)
 

 

 

 

-Darren

 

 


From:=20 capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng = Hong
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 = 9:20=20 PM
To: Gopal = Dommety; Mani,=20 Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject:=20 RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP=20 Proposals

 

Hi=20 Gopal,

 

Having = running code=20 is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective = details=20 and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability = is=20 achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation = of that=20 specification (the running code). People can implement the IP = ugly, but=20 it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess = the top=20 priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to = meet our=20 agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate = us from=20 the real goal.

 

cheers

 

Cheng=20 Hong

 

 

 


From:=20 capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] = On Behalf Of Gopal = Dommety
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, = 2005 2:34=20 AM
To: Mani, = Mahalingam=20 (Mahalingam)
Cc:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting=20 Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP=20 Proposals


Thanks for the clarification. I am bit = surprised  that there is no need for an implentation of a = protocol for=20 it to be selected.

I understand that making minor extensions = to=20 Protocols are necessary. However,  Fundmental/Significant = deviations=20 between the specifications and implentations will not get us = anycloser to=20 the goal of interoperability.

Cheers,
-Gopal

At = 11:26 PM=20 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)=20 wrote:


There s = no emphasis=20 yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation=20 criterion.

 

One way = to look at=20 this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly = fell into=20 two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality = in=20 architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge = on; before=20 contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the = candidate=20 protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three = IETF=20 sessions.

 

-mani

 

From:=20 capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal = Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 = 6:04=20 PM
To:=20 capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting=20 Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP=20 Proposals

 

Hello = All,

During the=20 last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might = differ from=20 what is  implemented significantly.  I was wondering if = there is=20 any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the = CAPWAP=20 Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" = for the=20 CAPWAP protocols being considered?


Regards, =

-Gopal=20


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal=20 Dommety
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34 = AM
To: Mani,=20 Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject:=20 RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP=20 Proposals


Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised  = that=20 there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be = selected.=20

I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are = necessary.=20 However,  Fundmental/Significant deviations between the = specifications=20 and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of = interoperability.=20

Cheers,
-Gopal

At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, = Mahalingam=20 (Mahalingam) wrote:

There=20 s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective = or=20 Evaluation criterion.

 

One way to=20 look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences = broadly=20 fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek = commonality=20 in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge = on;=20 before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of = the=20 candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last = two-three=20 IETF sessions.

 

-mani

From:=20 capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On = Behalf Of=20 Gopal Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04=20 PM
To: capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = Exisiting=20 Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized = that some of=20 the submitted proposals might differ from what is  implemented=20 significantly.  I was wondering if there is any documentation = of the=20 number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as = submitted)? Is=20 there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being=20 considered?


Regards,

-Gopal=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A39C.EFD790CF-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 18 11:14:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5m5w-0004Lf-9I for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:14:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11787 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256832054C; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1382820541; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:14:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3F020541 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from typhoon.trangosoft.com (unknown [209.82.51.154]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1592028A for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phantom-out.trangosoft.com ([136.157.233.22]) by 136.157.233.32 with trend_isnt_name_B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:14:55 -0400 Received: from troll3.trangosoft.com (troll3.trangosoft.com [136.157.233.13]) by phantom-out.trangosoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534EF24FA8 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by troll3.trangosoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:08:35 -0400 Message-ID: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E30B@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> From: Inderpreet Singh To: capwap@frascone.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP eval team - CTP evaluation Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:13:30 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Eval Team Members and Chairs, =A0 The CAPWAP evaluation team independently reviewed the CAPWAP candidate protocols of which CTP was one. =A0 They evaluated the protocols against the CAPWAP objectives (http://www.capwap.org/draft-ietf-capwap-objectives-03.txt) =A0 Here are the results for CTP: =A0 CAPWAP Evaluation CTP Mandatory =A0 5.1.1 Logical Groups C 5.1.2 Traffic Separation P 5.1.3 STA Transparency C 5.1.4 Config Consistency C 5.1.5 Firmware Trigger P 5.1.6 Monitor System P 5.1.7 Resource Control P 5.1.8 Protocol Security F 5.1.9 System Security F 5.1.10 802.11i Consideration C 5.1.11 Interoperability C 5.1.12 Protocol Specifications P 5.1.13 Vendor Independence C 5.1.14 Vendor Flexibility C 5.1.15 NAT Traversal C Desirable =A0 5.2.1 Multiple Authentication P 5.2.2 Future Wireless C 5.2.3 New IEEE Requirements C 5.2.4 Interconnection (IPv6) C 5.2.5 Access Control C =A0 =A0 Given the fact that all that we have at our disposal is the = presentation of the evaluation team (http://www.capwap.org/ietf63/CAPWAP%20Evaluation%20Team-3.pdf), it is difficult to do a thorough analysis of the results of the = evaluation.=A0 Nevertheless, based on the presentation and individual conversations = with the evaluation team, given below is a list of our concerns and requests = for clarification to the evaluation for the categories where we got an "P" = or an "F". =A0It is understood that many of the answers will be provided with = the evaluation draft itself, but it was deemed prudent (through = conversations with the chairs and evaluation team members) to share this with the = list a priori. If possible, members of the evaluation team can respond on the list. =A0 5.1.2 Traffic Separation =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 For Traffic Separation, the CAPWAP Objectives Draft states: "The CAPWAP Protocol MUST define transport control messages such that the transport = of control messages is separate from the transport of data messages."=20 =A0 The CTP protocol specification clearly defines three separate types of frames:=A0 control, data, and MAC management. Control messages are used = to maintain state between the AC and the WTP. MAC Management messages are = used in the case of Split MAC to relay MAC management frames between the WTP = and the AC. Data messages are clearly used to transport user data when it = is tunneled between the WTP and the AC. =A0 The data frame format includes a network identifier which allows data = from different logical groups to remain separated. This is referred as a desirable objective in the Objectives Draft description for traffic separation.=20 =A0 The CTP capabilities exchange allows the WTP to inform the AC of the = number of logical groups that it supports. =A0 The eval team felt that since we did not specify the OIDs to configure = the WTP to tunnel or not to tunnel, we are partially compliant with this objective.=A0 In order to be fully compliant we need to fully define = the mechanism and OID that is used to configure the tunneling mechanism. = However there are no CAPWAP objectives that mandate the configuration of data tunneling. =A0This was an "implied" objective and it makes sense to = some extent. =A0 5.1.5 Firmware Trigger The eval team consistently gave the protocols a P rating if the state machine did not allow a firmware trigger during normal running = state.=A0 They felt that this flexibility was required.=A0 Implementation wise this is currently supported.=A0 The protocol draft does not explicitly define = the state transitions for going from running state to software update = state.=A0 However, in our opinion, the usefulness of this capability is = debatable. =A0 CTP defines a trigger which signals and out-of-band mechanism for = firmware upgrade. The trigger mechanism can be used at any time once a secure connection has been established between the WTP and the AC.=A0 There is nothing in CTP that prevents the firmware upgrade to be triggered while = in running state. There is nothing in CTP that would prevent an = implementation from continuing to service clients in running while upgrading firmware. =A0 We would request clarification from the evaluation team on CTP was not = fully compliant in this objective.=20 =A0 5.1.6 Monitor System This is the first problematic evaluation.=A0 The Objectives draft = states that the protocol "MUST allow for the exchange of statistics, congestion and other WLAN state information.".=A0 We don't see how this objective was = not met with the CTP draft.=A0 CTP-Stats-Notify, CTP-Stats-Req and = CTP-Stats-Rsp enable the WTP to send statistics information periodically on its own, = and the other two messages allow the AC to command the WTP to send = statistics upon request.=A0 Section 5.3.10 of the CTP draft specifies that the = statistics information that comes from the WTP is as defined in the IEEE 802.11 = Annex D MIB specification.=A0=20 =A0 We believe that CTP complies with this objective.=A0 Furthermore, our = novel approach of using SNMP pdu and OIDs to define the configuration and statistics of the radio specific technology makes our protocol stronger = in the compliance of this objective because of its flexibility to non = 802.11 radio technology.=A0 Each non-802.11 radio technology comes with its corresponding MIB definition and contains the most appropriate = statistics information.=A0 In the case of 802.11 Annex D (normative) ASN.1 = encoding of the MAC and PHY MIB, the dot11CountersEntry table as well as other = tables provide more than sufficient statistics and counters for a full = monitoring of the 802.11 manifestations of a CAPWAP system. =A0 Using SNMP pdu's in CTP allows the CAPWAP working group to directly = leverage new amendments to the IEEE 802 wireless standards without continually = having to revise the CAPWAP protocol. It also significantly simplifies the = binding to other wireless standards besides 802.11.=20 =A0 We would request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP is partially compliant in addressing this objective. =A0 5.1.7 Resource Control As per the presentation of the evaluation team, this objective was = deemed compliant if the protocol provided the ability to "configure QoS = mappings".=A0 While CTP does not define any explicit configuration messages for QoS = this capability is implicitly met by the fact that we have stated that we = would use standard 802.11 MIBs for the configuration and statistics. =A0The amendment to 802.11 known as 802.11e specifies a MIB in which all WLAN = QoS parameters are defined both for configuration as well as statistics. = =A0We believe that no further definition of this was required. = =A0Furthermore, the CTP data header has a Policy field which allows for CAPWAP = implementations to enforce QoS on the CAPWAP packets in addition to the MU data. =A0 The CAPWAP objective draft clearly states "The CAPWAP protocol MUST map = the IEEE 802.11e QoS priorities to=A0 equivalent QoS priorities across the switching and wireless medium segments". The CTP protocol uses IEEE = 802.11e SNMP oids to configure the mapping at the AC, which can distribute that information to the WTP's. Furthermore, Section 5.4 of the CTP = specification states: "Data packet coming into the AC from the wired network is a = voice=A0 packet as indicated by the TOS or DSCP markings in the IP header.=A0 = This TOS/DSCP byte will be copied to the outer transport header for=A0 = proper priority handling within the network between the AP and the AC.=A0 = However, for appropriate classification at the AP, the AC sets the Policy field = to a value that allows the AP to prioritize this packet over other data = packets that may have a lower priority.=A0=20 Similarly in the reverse direction, the MU may have set the=A0 = appropriate fields in the original IP header, but the AP can interpret those bits = and map them to the Policy field in the CTP-Data header for special = dispensation at the AC.=A0=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 We would request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP is partially compliant in addressing this objective. =A0 In contrast, our quick perusal of the SLAPP protocol and SLAPP self evaluation revealed that the protocol has no explicit provisions for = QoS mapping either for CAPWAP tunnel data or for the Mobile Unit data, it = merely has 802.11e parameters in the 802.11 control protocol. =A0The most = detailed configuration capability was defined within the LWAPP draft only. =A0 5.1.8=A0Protocol Security =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 The support for asymmetric authentication within the CAPWAP protocol = was deemed mandatory by the evaluation team in order to receive a Compliant indication.=A0 In the context of the CAPWAP protocol, asymmetric authentication refers to the presence of a mechanism, within the = protocol, to allow the WTP and the AC to conduct different types of = authentication.=A0 For example, the WTP can authenticate the AC by the presence of a duly signed digital certificate, whereas the AC would authenticate the WTP = based on the presence of a pre-shared key.=A0 This also implies that the authentication may not necessarily be mutual.=A0 That is, both sides = don't necessarily have to authenticate each other.=A0=20 =A0 The CTP protocol indeed does not have inherent support for non-mutual = or asymmetric authentication of the WTP and AC.=A0 However, neither do any = of the other protocols other than perhaps SLAPP which uses DTLS (a datagram = version of the TLS protocol).=A0 For example, LWAPP provides for mutual = certificate based authentication OR mutual pre-shared key based authentication. = =A0It does not provide for the ability for a non-mutual authentication where one = side does not authenticate the other. =A0 Another matter of concern is that the CAPWAP email list had a long discussion on the need for non-mutual authentication and at most the conclusion would have been that it is not a "MUST have" but rather a = "SHOULD have".=A0 After reviewing the final objective draft indeed it has some = verbage on this issue which a little confusing: "CAPWAP MUST NOT prevent the = use of asymmetric authentication."=A0 Indeed, we do not support asymmetric authentication.=A0 But do we prevent its use?=A0 It seems like the = evaluation team took the spirit of the text and interpreted it as asymmetric authentication MUST be supported.=A0 If it is a SHOULD be supported, = then we should Comply with the requirement. =A0This is clearly a case = disagreement on the interpretation of the objectives. =A0 5.1.9=A0System Security =A0 The objective states very clearly the following: "The design of the = CAPWAP protocol MUST NOT allow for any compromises to the WLAN system by = external entities."=A0 It is not clear based on the table in which we were = granted an "F" for this protocol objective, as well as the two bullets in the presentation, as to why the evaluation team felt we did not comply with = this objective.=A0 We don't see anything in the protocol, pending a thorough security review that allows for any compromise to the WLAN system by external entities.=A0 This is the case where we would be very = interested in understanding what review did the evaluation team do to deem the = protocol insecure. =A0 The 802.11i standard uses EAPoL messages between the STA and the WTP = for authentication. These messages are treated as data messages transmitted = over the wireless medium between the STA and the WTP. In the CTP protocol, = these messages are relayed across the switching infrastructure from the WTP = to the AC. If these messages are deemed to be protected across the wireless = medium, why would this compromise security across the wired medium between the = WTP and the AC? =A0 We would request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP = failed to be compliant in addressing this objective. =A0 5.1.10 Protocol Specifications The evaluation team deemed the CTP protocol specification draft to be incomplete. =A0Therefore, we have received partial compliance within = this category.=A0 The only explanation we see for this is that CTP relies on external MIB definitions for proper and full interoperability. =A0 =A0 In addition to the mandatory objectives stated above, there are a few Desirable objectives as well. =A0 We would like to state CTP has been implemented and is used in products = that are working in the market today. There may be interpretation and clarification issues with the specification, but we fail to see why the protocol is incomplete. There are clarification and interpretations = issues with all protocol drafts under evaluation. For that matter, there are = still interpretation issues on the CAPWAP taxonomy. For instance, working = group has adopted a work item to clarify the interpretation of the definition = of split versus local MAC behavior. =A0 5.2.1 Multiple Authentication The evaluation team provided a "P" in this category. =A0Not only does = CTP allow different authentication mechanisms per logical group, it also = allows different data paths per logical group. =A0We fail to see the reasoning = behind receiving a "P" in this category. =A0 The objective states: "The CAPWAP protocol MUST support different authentication mechanisms=A0=A0 in addition to IEEE 802.11i." =A0 The CTP draft allows the WTP to advertise multiple logical wireless = networks in the capabilities exchange with the AC. The AC can then assign = different authentication policies to each logical group on the WTP as if each = logical group corresponded to a separate MAC on the WTP. There is nothing in = the protocol to prevent the AC from configuring different authentication on = each logical segment of the WTP. =A0 We would request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP is partially compliant in addressing this objective. =A0 Thanks =A0 --- Inderpreet Singh Chief Architect Chantry Networks Inc., A Siemens Company inderpreet.singh@siemens.com =A0 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 18 11:43:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5mY5-0004t7-P5 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:43:22 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13273 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148592054C; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E7820541; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:43:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DACF20541 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AA62028A for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:42:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j7IFTXvl001544 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cof110avexu1.global.avaya.com (h135-9-6-16.avaya.com [135.9.6.16]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j7IFS4vl029191 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:28:20 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A40B.38CA071B" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWikgLjV5kssDVhQN6sT6YuSs+YNgBCsF3g From: "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" To: "Gopal Dommety" Cc: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:40:55 -0600 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A40B.38CA071B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gopal, =20 Let me fill you in on disconnects you may be having (possibly picking up on CAPWAP thread again): =20 There is nothing wrong in general with having included implementation as part of objective - perhaps just desirable. We just did not see such a call for it in WG in course of Objectives review. We (chairs) considered including it. In the context of taxonomy work yielding as many as 15-16 very similar implementations leading to support for two classes of control (local & split) some supporting both modes; pointed to much implementation and field deployment experience. So the CAPWAP community has close implementation & deployment experiences - more or less the outcome of which has resulted in RFC3990 and CAPWAP WG. =20 Nor did we try to make it an added evaluation criterion - as we don't want to get into a rat-hole if 'interoperable' implementations are independent or not. =20 The still-converging split-MAC/AP consensus was implicitly the primary concern and goal; and it was decided that there's enough opportunity to make implementation experience relevant on a post-evaluation consensus protocol.=20 =20 The independent interoperable implementations, therefore, will be a focus for post-evaluation. =20 =20 Regards, -mani _____ =20 From: Gopal Dommety [mailto:gdommety@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:34 AM To: Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.=20 I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However, Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability.=20 Cheers, -Gopal At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote: There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion. =20 One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. =20 -mani =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 Hello All, During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? Regards,=20 -Gopal=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A40B.38CA071B Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gopal,

 

Let me fill you in on disconnects = you may be having (possibly picking up on CAPWAP thread = again):

 

There is nothing wrong in general = with having included implementation as part of objective – perhaps just desirable. We just did not see such a call for it in WG in course of = Objectives review. We (chairs) considered including it. In the context of taxonomy = work yielding as many as 15-16 very similar implementations leading to = support for two classes of control (local & split) some supporting both modes; = pointed to much implementation and field deployment = experience.

So the CAPWAP community has close implementation & deployment experiences – more or less the = outcome of which has resulted in RFC3990 and CAPWAP = WG.

 

Nor did we try to make it an added evaluation criterion – as we don’t want to get into a = rat-hole if ‘interoperable’ implementations are independent or = not.

 

The still-converging split-MAC/AP consensus was implicitly the primary concern and goal; and it was = decided that there’s enough opportunity to make implementation experience = relevant on a post-evaluation consensus protocol.

 

The independent interoperable implementations, therefore, will be a focus for = post-evaluation.

 

 

Regards,

-mani


From: Gopal = Dommety [mailto:gdommety@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, = 2005 11:34 AM
To: Mani, Mahalingam = (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP = Proposals

 


Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised  that there is no = need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.

I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However,  Fundmental/Significant deviations between the = specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability. =

Cheers,
-Gopal

At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote:


There s no emphasis yet to running = code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion.

 

One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the = focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself = has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite = a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions.

 

-mani

 

From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, = 2005 6:04 PM
To: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals = might differ from what is  implemented significantly.  I was = wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of = the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered?


Regards,

-Gopal

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A40B.38CA071B-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 18 12:17:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5n4s-0006uf-AW for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:17:14 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15325 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480A42055B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A44C20551; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:17:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4365820551 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from typhoon.trangosoft.com (unknown [209.82.51.154]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818C22054B for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phantom-out.trangosoft.com ([136.157.233.22]) by 136.157.233.32 with trend_isnt_name_B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:17:55 -0400 Received: from troll3.trangosoft.com (troll3.trangosoft.com [136.157.233.13]) by phantom-out.trangosoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD13824FF8; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by troll3.trangosoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:11:34 -0400 Message-ID: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E337@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> From: Inderpreet Singh To: Charles Clancy Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP eval team - CTP evaluation MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:16:29 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charles, Thanks for the clarification. That was exactly my point of view. = However, during the meeting when I asked for a clarification of the following = two bullets in the Eval Team's presentation, I was explained that it means = the ability for one side to authenticate the other, but not necessarily vice-versa. Which is hybrid or non-mutual. =20 Taken from slide 8 (CTP Evaluation Summary)of the CAPWAP eval team presentation at IETF63: "Compliance notes - Only one authentication and encryption method without ability to = extend methods - Precludes ability to perform asymmetric authentication" In essence it was our understanding that mutual is REQUIRED, public-key = or pre-shared SHOULD be supported. We (CTP) chose to support mutual authentication through public-key crypto. So why did we not meet the objective? --- Inderpreet Singh =20 -----Original Message----- From: Charles Clancy [mailto:clancy@cs.umd.edu]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:58 AM To: Inderpreet Singh Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP eval team - CTP evaluation > 5.1.8=A0Protocol Security > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 > The support for asymmetric authentication within the CAPWAP protocol = was > deemed mandatory by the evaluation team in order to receive a = Compliant > indication.=A0 In the context of the CAPWAP protocol, asymmetric > authentication refers to the presence of a mechanism, within the = protocol, > to allow the WTP and the AC to conduct different types of = authentication.=A0 > For example, the WTP can authenticate the AC by the presence of a = duly > signed digital certificate, whereas the AC would authenticate the WTP based > on the presence of a pre-shared key.=A0 Asymmetric authentication simply means public-key authentication. What = you are refering to is hybrid authentication. The term derives as the=20 antithesis of "symmetric-key crypto". It's symmetric because both = people=20 use the same key -- i.e. PSK. Not using shared key implies asymmetric, = or=20 public-key authentication. The CAPWAP requirements are that a shared-key and a public-key mode = should=20 both be supported, although the verbage is a bit awkward. > This also implies that the authentication may not necessarily be=20 > mutual.=A0 That is, both sides don't necessarily have to authenticate = each=20 > other.=A0 No it doesn't. Mutual authentication is orthogonal to public vs = private=20 key. > For example, LWAPP provides for mutual certificate based = authentication=20 > OR mutual pre-shared key based authentication. =A0It does not provide = for=20 > the ability for a non-mutual authentication where one side does not=20 > authenticate the other. As it should. The group has already agreed that mutual authentication = is=20 REQUIRED. [ t. charles clancy ]--[ tcc@umd.edu ]--[ www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy ] [ computer science ]-----[ university of maryland | college park ] _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 18 12:25:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5nCc-0001nO-9K for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:25:14 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15845 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0252055B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A13E20551; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:25:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F6B20551 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carrierpigeon.cs.umd.edu (carrierpigeon.cs.umd.edu [128.8.129.58]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84FE2054B for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ismene (ismene.cs.umd.edu [128.8.126.62]) by carrierpigeon.cs.umd.edu (8.12.10/8.12.5) with ESMTP id j7IG3LfD015996; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:03:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Clancy X-X-Sender: clancy@ismene To: Inderpreet Singh Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP eval team - CTP evaluation In-Reply-To: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E30B@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> Message-ID: References: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E30B@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-1804928587-1124380690=:15232" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:58:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---559023410-1804928587-1124380690=:15232 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE > 5.1.8=A0Protocol Security > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 > The support for asymmetric authentication within the CAPWAP protocol was > deemed mandatory by the evaluation team in order to receive a Compliant > indication.=A0 In the context of the CAPWAP protocol, asymmetric > authentication refers to the presence of a mechanism, within the protocol= , > to allow the WTP and the AC to conduct different types of authentication.= =A0 > For example, the WTP can authenticate the AC by the presence of a duly > signed digital certificate, whereas the AC would authenticate the WTP bas= ed > on the presence of a pre-shared key.=A0 Asymmetric authentication simply means public-key authentication. What=20 you are refering to is hybrid authentication. The term derives as the=20 antithesis of "symmetric-key crypto". It's symmetric because both people= =20 use the same key -- i.e. PSK. Not using shared key implies asymmetric, or= =20 public-key authentication. The CAPWAP requirements are that a shared-key and a public-key mode should= =20 both be supported, although the verbage is a bit awkward. > This also implies that the authentication may not necessarily be=20 > mutual.=A0 That is, both sides don't necessarily have to authenticate eac= h=20 > other.=A0 No it doesn't. Mutual authentication is orthogonal to public vs private=20 key. > For example, LWAPP provides for mutual certificate based authentication= =20 > OR mutual pre-shared key based authentication. =A0It does not provide for= =20 > the ability for a non-mutual authentication where one side does not=20 > authenticate the other. As it should. The group has already agreed that mutual authentication is= =20 REQUIRED. [ t. charles clancy ]--[ tcc@umd.edu ]--[ www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy ] [ computer science ]-----[ university of maryland | college park ] ---559023410-1804928587-1124380690=:15232-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 18 13:45:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5oS3-0006vm-Gp for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:45:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19832 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:45:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1185F20558; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D887420390; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:45:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6019620390 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp108.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp108.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.6]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id ACD3E20374 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25595 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2005 17:44:19 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Accept-Language:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Nu3q/EXR/FSEsXxIwVdJ3lBE33evvqKzN3fBmNYX1dOO/VDCzfPGxQwKMy0WTd/hlBkApg/4wWnC43Tn5rZA59UYwqBLTvhTB9u2QrPIHxtuYN9KtmncxHgMp7AmRepA0VxG0sbvyzRGrUMYdSCLlR/BAreTFgsdiXtJpIQph4M= ; Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.103?) (behcetsarikaya@24.71.246.198 with plain) by smtp108.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 2005 17:44:18 -0000 Message-ID: <4304C8E9.4080203@yahoo.com> From: Behcet Sarikaya Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP eval team - CTP evaluation References: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E30B@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> In-Reply-To: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E30B@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:44:09 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Inderpreet Singh wrote: >Dear Eval Team Members and Chairs, > >The CAPWAP evaluation team independently reviewed the CAPWAP candidate >protocols of which CTP was one. > >They evaluated the protocols against the CAPWAP objectives >(http://www.capwap.org/draft-ietf-capwap-objectives-03.txt) > >Here are the results for CTP: > >CAPWAP Evaluation CTP >Mandatory > >5.1.1 Logical Groups C >5.1.2 Traffic Separation P >5.1.3 STA Transparency C >5.1.4 Config Consistency C >5.1.5 Firmware Trigger P >5.1.6 Monitor System P >5.1.7 Resource Control P >5.1.8 Protocol Security F >5.1.9 System Security F >5.1.10 802.11i Consideration C >5.1.11 Interoperability C >5.1.12 Protocol Specifications P >5.1.13 Vendor Independence C >5.1.14 Vendor Flexibility C >5.1.15 NAT Traversal C >Desirable > >5.2.1 Multiple Authentication P >5.2.2 Future Wireless C >5.2.3 New IEEE Requirements C >5.2.4 Interconnection (IPv6) C >5.2.5 Access Control C > > >Given the fact that all that we have at our disposal is the presentation of >the evaluation team >(http://www.capwap.org/ietf63/CAPWAP%20Evaluation%20Team-3.pdf), it is >difficult to do a thorough analysis of the results of the evaluation. >Nevertheless, based on the presentation and individual conversations with >the evaluation team, given below is a list of our concerns and requests for >clarification to the evaluation for the categories where we got an "P" or an >"F". It is understood that many of the answers will be provided with the >evaluation draft itself, but it was deemed prudent (through conversations >with the chairs and evaluation team members) to share this with the list a >priori. If possible, members of the evaluation team can respond on the >list. > >5.1.2 Traffic Separation > >For Traffic Separation, the CAPWAP Objectives Draft states: "The CAPWAP >Protocol MUST define transport control messages such that the transport of >control messages is separate from the transport of data messages." > >The CTP protocol specification clearly defines three separate types of >frames: control, data, and MAC management. Control messages are used to >maintain state between the AC and the WTP. MAC Management messages are used >in the case of Split MAC to relay MAC management frames between the WTP and >the AC. Data messages are clearly used to transport user data when it is >tunneled between the WTP and the AC. > >The data frame format includes a network identifier which allows data from >different logical groups to remain separated. This is referred as a >desirable objective in the Objectives Draft description for traffic >separation. > >The CTP capabilities exchange allows the WTP to inform the AC of the number >of logical groups that it supports. > >The eval team felt that since we did not specify the OIDs to configure the >WTP to tunnel or not to tunnel, we are partially compliant with this >objective. In order to be fully compliant we need to fully define the >mechanism and OID that is used to configure the tunneling mechanism. However >there are no CAPWAP objectives that mandate the configuration of data >tunneling. This was an "implied" objective and it makes sense to some >extent. > >5.1.5 Firmware Trigger > >The eval team consistently gave the protocols a P rating if the state >machine did not allow a firmware trigger during normal running state. They >felt that this flexibility was required. Implementation wise this is >currently supported. The protocol draft does not explicitly define the >state transitions for going from running state to software update state. >However, in our opinion, the usefulness of this capability is debatable. > >CTP defines a trigger which signals and out-of-band mechanism for firmware >upgrade. The trigger mechanism can be used at any time once a secure >connection has been established between the WTP and the AC. There is >nothing in CTP that prevents the firmware upgrade to be triggered while in >running state. There is nothing in CTP that would prevent an implementation >from continuing to service clients in running while upgrading firmware. > >We would request clarification from the evaluation team on CTP was not fully >compliant in this objective. > >5.1.6 Monitor System > >This is the first problematic evaluation. The Objectives draft states that >the protocol "MUST allow for the exchange of statistics, congestion and >other WLAN state information.". We don't see how this objective was not met >with the CTP draft. CTP-Stats-Notify, CTP-Stats-Req and CTP-Stats-Rsp >enable the WTP to send statistics information periodically on its own, and >the other two messages allow the AC to command the WTP to send statistics >upon request. Section 5.3.10 of the CTP draft specifies that the statistics >information that comes from the WTP is as defined in the IEEE 802.11 Annex D >MIB specification. > >We believe that CTP complies with this objective. Furthermore, our novel >approach of using SNMP pdu and OIDs to define the configuration and >statistics of the radio specific technology makes our protocol stronger in >the compliance of this objective because of its flexibility to non 802.11 >radio technology. Each non-802.11 radio technology comes with its >corresponding MIB definition and contains the most appropriate statistics >information. In the case of 802.11 Annex D (normative) ASN.1 encoding of >the MAC and PHY MIB, the dot11CountersEntry table as well as other tables >provide more than sufficient statistics and counters for a full monitoring >of the 802.11 manifestations of a CAPWAP system. > >Using SNMP pdu's in CTP allows the CAPWAP working group to directly leverage >new amendments to the IEEE 802 wireless standards without continually having >to revise the CAPWAP protocol. It also significantly simplifies the binding >to other wireless standards besides 802.11. > > > With my eval team member hat off, can I ask how appropriate/feasible/good SNMP would be for Split MAC WTPs? CTP's use of SNMP stems originally from managing legacy Local MAC WTPs. Can one easily extend it to Split MAC WTPs? The use of SNMP versus CAPWAP had been discussed earlier in this mailing list but I forgot what was the conclusion, if any? Regards, --behcet _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 18 15:30:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5q5f-0006t1-S2 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:30:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26023 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741F32055B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B2912054B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:30:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280582054B for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from typhoon.trangosoft.com (unknown [209.82.51.154]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152B720374 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phantom-out.trangosoft.com ([136.157.233.22]) by 136.157.233.32 with trend_isnt_name_B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:31:33 -0400 Received: from troll3.trangosoft.com (troll3.trangosoft.com [136.157.233.13]) by phantom-out.trangosoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A5324FCD; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by troll3.trangosoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:25:13 -0400 Message-ID: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E396@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> From: Michael Montemurro To: sarikaya@ieee.org, capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] CAPWAP eval team - CTP evaluation MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:30:08 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Behcet, > With my eval team member hat off, > can I ask how appropriate/feasible/good SNMP would be for > Split MAC WTPs? > CTP's use of SNMP stems originally from managing legacy Local > MAC WTPs. > Can one easily extend it to Split MAC WTPs? > The use of SNMP versus CAPWAP had been discussed earlier in > this mailing list but I forgot what was the conclusion, if any? > Regards, > --behcet Since the split MAC functions are simply a subset of the entire MAC functions, SNMP OID's can still be used to configure WTP's operating in split MAC modes. CTP specifies using SNMP OID's for configuration to improve the extensibility of the protocol. Each IEEE 802 MAC standard includes SNMP OIDs for configuration. CTP uses SNMP in its configuration message payload to configure the WTP's. Therefore IEEE standards already define the configuration interface. The only downside to using SNMP OID's is that you need to deal with ASN.1 encoding. As new amendments to IEEE 802 standards become available, the CTP protocol remains the same and picks up new OID's that are specified as part of the amendment. Personaly, I would not in favour of using the SNMP protocol for configuration because it makes the state management of the AC and WTP much too complex. It would mean that you would require a separate channel for configuration versus control. Cheers, Mike _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Thu Aug 18 16:39:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E5rAV-0003a7-8f for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:39:19 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02363 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908CF2054B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:39:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840FF20557; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:39:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0151B2054B for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8F020374 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (pcp04510339pcs.gambrl01.md.comcast.net[68.49.199.146]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2005081820380501400qesu4e>; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:38:06 +0000 Message-ID: <4304F1B3.3080709@cs.umd.edu> From: Charles Clancy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] CAPWAP eval team - CTP evaluation References: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E30B@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:38:11 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It has been suggested that my comments were a little equivocal. Let me clarify. Terminology: - Symmetric authentication means both parties share the same key, and this serves to authenticate one party to the other. - Asymmetric authentication means one party has a public/private key pair, with the public key typically signed by a trusted authority, creating a certificate. Knowledge of the private key corresponding to the published public key serves to authenticate one party to the other. - Mutual authentication is when two people authenticate each other. - Explicit mutual authentication means that keys derived from a mutual authentication are confirmed during the authentication phase. - Mutual derivation means that keys are derived based on random data provided by both parties. - Hybrid authentication refers to using symmetric authentication to authenticate one person and asymmetric authentication to authenticate the other. This implies mutual authentication. With respect to the objectives draft: - CAPWAP protocols MUST perform explicit mutual authentication between the AC and WTP, and mutually derive session keys. - The draft states that "CAPWAP MUST NOT prevent the use of asymmetric authentication". I interpret this to mean that either a public-key mode MUST already exist, or the ciphersuite MUST be extensible such that it could be added later. - There is no text requiring support for symmetric authentication. With respect to the CTP Evaluation: - Without doing a full security review of the authentication protocol, CTP supports authentication using public keys. - Session keys are NOT mutually derived. - Explicit mutual authentication is also not done. Either party could be used as an oracle to spoof an authentication session. - IMHO, this represents "F", but I can't speak for the evaluation team. [ t. charles clancy ]--[ tcc@umd.edu ]--[ www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy ] [ computer science ]-----[ university of maryland | college park ] Charles Clancy wrote: >> 5.1.8 Protocol Security >> >> The support for asymmetric authentication within the CAPWAP protocol was >> deemed mandatory by the evaluation team in order to receive a Compliant >> indication. In the context of the CAPWAP protocol, asymmetric >> authentication refers to the presence of a mechanism, within the >> protocol, >> to allow the WTP and the AC to conduct different types of >> authentication. >> For example, the WTP can authenticate the AC by the presence of a duly >> signed digital certificate, whereas the AC would authenticate the WTP >> based >> on the presence of a pre-shared key. > > > Asymmetric authentication simply means public-key authentication. What > you are refering to is hybrid authentication. The term derives as the > antithesis of "symmetric-key crypto". It's symmetric because both > people use the same key -- i.e. PSK. Not using shared key implies > asymmetric, or public-key authentication. > > The CAPWAP requirements are that a shared-key and a public-key mode > should both be supported, although the verbage is a bit awkward. > >> This also implies that the authentication may not necessarily be >> mutual. That is, both sides don't necessarily have to authenticate >> each other. > > > No it doesn't. Mutual authentication is orthogonal to public vs private > key. > >> For example, LWAPP provides for mutual certificate based >> authentication OR mutual pre-shared key based authentication. It does >> not provide for the ability for a non-mutual authentication where one >> side does not authenticate the other. > > > As it should. The group has already agreed that mutual authentication > is REQUIRED. > > [ t. charles clancy ]--[ tcc@umd.edu ]--[ www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy ] > [ computer science ]-----[ university of maryland | college park ] _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Fri Aug 19 09:19:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E66mW-0002RM-1H for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:19:38 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02161 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601221FE17; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58641FE02; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:19:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7771720541 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from typhoon.trangosoft.com (unknown [209.82.51.154]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA82E2054B for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phantom-out.trangosoft.com ([136.157.233.22]) by 136.157.233.32 with trend_isnt_name_B; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:02:30 -0400 Received: from troll3.trangosoft.com (troll3.trangosoft.com [136.157.233.13]) by phantom-out.trangosoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DBB24FAC for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by troll3.trangosoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:56:07 -0400 Message-ID: <1652EBA28502ED4393B9BC9B8A4B601325E2B9@mism121a.toronto.chantrynetworks.com> From: Inderpreet Singh To: capwap@frascone.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A3F4.E20E0226" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [Capwap] CAPWAP eval team - CTP evaluation Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:01:02 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A3F4.E20E0226 Content-Type: text/plain Dear Eval Team and Chairs, The CAPWAP evaluation team independently reviewed the CAPWAP candidate protocols of which CTP was one. They evaluated the protocols against the CAPWAP objectives (http://www.capwap.org/draft-ietf-capwap-objectives-03.txt ) Here are the results for CTP: CAPWAP Evaluation CTP Mandatory 5.1.1 Logical Groups C 5.1.2 Traffic Separation P 5.1.3 STA Transparency C 5.1.4 Config Consistency C 5.1.5 Firmware Trigger P 5.1.6 Monitor System P 5.1.7 Resource Control P 5.1.8 Protocol Security F 5.1.9 System Security F 5.1.10 802.11i Consideration C 5.1.11 Interoperability C 5.1.12 Protocol Specifications P 5.1.13 Vendor Independence C 5.1.14 Vendor Flexibility C 5.1.15 NAT Traversal C Desirable 5.2.1 Multiple Authentication P 5.2.2 Future Wireless C 5.2.3 New IEEE Requirements C 5.2.4 Interconnection (IPv6) C 5.2.5 Access Control C Given the fact that all that we have at our disposal is the presentation of the evaluation team (http://www.capwap.org/ietf63/CAPWAP%20Evaluation%20Team-3.pdf ), it is difficult to do a thorough analysis of the results of the evaluation. Nevertheless, based on the presentation and individual conversations with the evaluation team, given below is a list of our concerns and requests for clarification to the evaluation for the categories where we got an "P" or an "F". It is understood that many of the answers will be provided with the evaluation draft itself, but it was deemed prudent (through conversations with the chairs and evaluation team members) to share this with the list a priori. 5.1.2 Traffic Separation For Traffic Separation, the CAPWAP Objectives Draft states: "The CAPWAP Protocol MUST define transport control messages such that the transport of control messages is separate from the transport of data messages." The CTP protocol specification clearly defines three separate types of frames: control, data, and MAC management. Control messages are used to maintain state between the AC and the WTP. MAC Management messages are used in the case of Split MAC to relay MAC management frames between the WTP and the AC. Data messages are clearly used to transport user data when it is tunneled between the WTP and the AC. The data frame format includes a network identifier which allows data from different logical groups to remain separated. This is referred as a desirable objective in the Objectives Draft description for traffic separation. The CTP capabilities exchange allows the WTP to inform the AC of the number of logical groups that it supports. The eval team felt that since we did not specify the OIDs to configure the WTP to tunnel or not to tunnel, we are partially compliant with this objective. In order to be fully compliant we need to fully define the mechanism and OID that is used to configure the tunneling mechanism. However there are no CAPWAP objectives that mandate the configuration of data tunneling. This was an "implied" objective and it makes sense to some extent. 5.1.5 Firmware Trigger The eval team consistently gave the protocols a P rating if the state machine did not allow a firmware trigger during normal running state. They felt that this flexibility was required. Implementation wise this is currently supported. The protocol draft does not explicitly define the state transitions for going from running state to software update state. However, in our opinion, the usefulness of this capability is debatable. CTP defines a trigger which signals and out-of-band mechanism for firmware upgrade. The trigger mechanism can be used at any time once a secure connection has been established between the WTP and the AC. There is nothing in CTP that prevents the firmware upgrade to be triggered while in running state. There is nothing in CTP that would prevent an implementation from continuing to service clients in running while upgrading firmware. We would request clarification from the evaluation team on CTP was not fully compliant in this objective. 5.1.6 Monitor System This is the first problematic evaluation. The Objectives draft states that the protocol "MUST allow for the exchange of statistics, congestion and other WLAN state information.". We don't see how this objective was not met with the CTP draft. CTP-Stats-Notify, CTP-Stats-Req and CTP-Stats-Rsp enable the WTP to send statistics information periodically on its own, and the other two messages allow the AC to command the WTP to send statistics upon request. Section 5.3.10 of the CTP draft specifies that the statistics information that comes from the WTP is as defined in the IEEE 802.11 Annex D MIB specification. We believe that CTP complies with this objective. Furthermore, our novel approach of using SNMP pdu and OIDs to define the configuration and statistics of the radio specific technology makes our protocol stronger in the compliance of this objective because of its flexibility to non 802.11 radio technology. Each non-802.11 radio technology comes with its corresponding MIB definition and contains the most appropriate statistics information. In the case of 802.11 Annex D (normative) ASN.1 encoding of the MAC and PHY MIB, the dot11CountersEntry table as well as other tables provide more than sufficient statistics and counters for a full monitoring of the 802.11 manifestations of a CAPWAP system. Using SNMP pdu's in CTP allows the CAPWAP working group to directly leverage new amendments to the IEEE 802 wireless standards without continually having to revise the CAPWAP protocol. It also significantly simplifies the binding to other wireless standards besides 802.11. We would request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP is partially compliant in addressing this objective. 5.1.7 Resource Control As per the presentation of the evaluation team, this objective was deemed compliant if the protocol provided the ability to "configure QoS mappings". While CTP does not define any explicit configuration messages for QoS this capability is implicitly met by the fact that we have stated that we would use standard 802.11 MIBs for the configuration and statistics. The amendment to 802.11 known as 802.11e specifies a MIB in which all WLAN QoS parameters are defined both for configuration as well as statistics. We believe that no further definition of this was required. Furthermore, the CTP data header has a Policy field which allows for CAPWAP implementations to enforce QoS on the CAPWAP packets in addition to the MU data. The CAPWAP objective draft clearly states "The CAPWAP protocol MUST map the IEEE 802.11e QoS priorities to equivalent QoS priorities across the switching and wireless medium segments". The CTP protocol uses IEEE 802.11e SNMP oids to configure the mapping at the AC, which can distribute that information to the WTP's. Furthermore, Section 5.4 of the CTP specification states: "Data packet coming into the AC from the wired network is a voice packet as indicated by the TOS or DSCP markings in the IP header. This TOS/DSCP byte will be copied to the outer transport header for proper priority handling within the network between the AP and the AC. However, for appropriate classification at the AP, the AC sets the Policy field to a value that allows the AP to prioritize this packet over other data packets that may have a lower priority. Similarly in the reverse direction, the MU may have set the appropriate fields in the original IP header, but the AP can interpret those bits and map them to the Policy field in the CTP-Data header for special dispensation at the AC. We would request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP is partially compliant in addressing this objective. In contrast, our quick perusal of the SLAPP protocol and SLAPP self evaluation revealed that the protocol has no explicit provisions for QoS mapping either for CAPWAP tunnel data or for the Mobile Unit data, it merely has 802.11e parameters in the 802.11 control protocol. The most detailed configuration capability was defined within the LWAPP draft only. 5.1.8 Protocol Security The support for asymmetric authentication within the CAPWAP protocol was deemed mandatory by the evaluation team in order to receive a Compliant indication. In the context of the CAPWAP protocol, asymmetric authentication refers to the presence of a mechanism, within the protocol, to allow the WTP and the AC to conduct different types of authentication. For example, the WTP can authenticate the AC by the presence of a duly signed digital certificate, whereas the AC would authenticate the WTP based on the presence of a pre-shared key. This also implies that the authentication may not necessarily be mutual. That is, both sides don't necessarily have to authenticate each other. The CTP protocol indeed does not have inherent support for non-mutual or asymmetric authentication of the WTP and AC. However, neither do any of the other protocols other than perhaps SLAPP which uses DTLS (a datagram version of the TLS protocol). For example, LWAPP provides for mutual certificate based authentication OR mutual pre-shared key based authentication. It does not provide for the ability for a non-mutual authentication where one side does not authenticate the other. Another matter of concern is that the CAPWAP email list had a long discussion on the need for non-mutual authentication and at most the conclusion would have been that it is not a "MUST have" but rather a "SHOULD have". After reviewing the final objective draft indeed it has some verbage on this issue which a little confusing: "CAPWAP MUST NOT prevent the use of asymmetric authentication." Indeed, we do not support asymmetric authentication. But do we prevent its use? It seems like the evaluation team took the spirit of the text and interpreted it as asymmetric authentication MUST be supported. If it is a SHOULD be supported, then we should Comply with the requirement. This is clearly a case disagreement on the interpretation of the objectives. 5.1.9 System Security The objective states very clearly the following: "The design of the CAPWAP protocol MUST NOT allow for any compromises to the WLAN system by external entities." It is not clear based on the table in which we were granted an "F" for this protocol objective, as well as the two bullets in the presentation, as to why the evaluation team felt we did not comply with this objective. We don't see anything in the protocol, pending a thorough security review that allows for any compromise to the WLAN system by external entities. This is the case where we would be very interested in understanding what review did the evaluation team do to deem the protocol insecure. The 802.11i standard uses EAPoL messages between the STA and the WTP for authentication. These messages are treated as data messages transmitted over the wireless medium between the STA and the WTP. In the CTP protocol, these messages are relayed across the switching infrastructure from the WTP to the AC. If these messages are deemed to be protected across the wireless medium, why would this compromise security across the wired medium between the WTP and the AC? We would request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP failed to be compliant in addressing this objective. 5.1.10 Protocol Specifications The evaluation team deemed the CTP protocol specification draft to be incomplete. Therefore, we have received partial compliance within this category. The only explanation we see for this is that CTP relies on external MIB definitions for proper and full interoperability. In addition to the mandatory objectives stated above, there are a few Desirable objectives as well. We would like to state CTP has been implemented and is used in products that are working in the market today. There may be interpretation and clarification issues with the specification, but we fail to see why the protocol is incomplete. There are clarification and interpretations issues with all protocol drafts under evaluation. For that matter, there are still interpretation issues on the CAPWAP taxonomy. For instance, working group has adopted a work item to clarify the interpretation of the definition of split versus local MAC behavior. 5.2.1 Multiple Authentication The evaluation team provided a "P" in this category. Not only does CTP allow different authentication mechanisms per logical group, it also allows different data paths per logical group. We fail to see the reasoning behind receiving a "P" in this category. The objective states: "The CAPWAP protocol MUST support different authentication mechanisms in addition to IEEE 802.11i." The CTP draft allows the WTP to advertise multiple logical wireless networks in the capabilities exchange with the AC. The AC can then assign different authentication policies to each logical group on the WTP as if each logical group corresponded to a separate MAC on the WTP. There is nothing in the protocol to prevent the AC from configuring different authentication on each logical segment of the WTP. We would request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP is partially compliant in addressing this objective. Thanks --- Inderpreet Singh Chief Architect Chantry Networks Inc., A Siemens Company inderpreet.singh@siemens.com Work: 905-363-6412 Mobile: 416-831-3705 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A3F4.E20E0226 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Eval Team and Chairs,

 

The CAPWAP evaluation team = independently reviewed the CAPWAP candidate protocols of which CTP was = one.

 

They evaluated the protocols = against the CAPWAP objectives (http= ://www.capwap.org/draft-ietf-capwap-objectives-03.txt<= font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial>)

 

Here are the results for = CTP:

 

CAPWAP Evaluation

CTP

Mandatory

 

5.1.1 = Logical Groups

C

5.1.2 = Traffic Separation

P

5.1.3 = STA Transparency

C

5.1.4 = Config Consistency

C

5.1.5 = Firmware Trigger

P

5.1.6 = Monitor System

P

5.1.7 = Resource Control

P

5.1.8 = Protocol Security

F

5.1.9 = System Security

F

5.1.10 = 802.11i Consideration

C

5.1.11 Interoperability

C

5.1.12 = Protocol Specifications

P

5.1.13 = Vendor Independence

C

5.1.14 = Vendor Flexibility

C

5.1.15 = NAT Traversal

C

Desirable

 

5.2.1 = Multiple Authentication

P

5.2.2 = Future Wireless

C

5.2.3 = New IEEE Requirements

C

5.2.4 Interconnection (IPv6)

C

5.2.5 = Access Control

C<= /font>

 

 

Given the fact that all that we = have at our disposal is the presentation of the evaluation team = (http://www.capwap.org/ietf63/CAPWAP%20Evaluation%20Team-3.pdf= ), it is difficult to do a thorough analysis of the = results of the evaluation.  Nevertheless, based on the presentation and = individual conversations with the evaluation team, given below is a list of our = concerns and requests for clarification to the evaluation for the categories = where we got an “P” or an “F”.  It is understood = that many of the answers will be provided with the evaluation draft itself, but = it was deemed prudent (through conversations with the chairs and evaluation = team members) to share this with the list a priori.

 

5.1.2 Traffic = Separation

     &nbs= p;     

For Traffic Separation, the = CAPWAP Objectives Draft states: “The CAPWAP Protocol MUST define = transport control messages such that the transport of control messages is = separate from the transport of data messages.”

 

The CTP protocol specification = clearly defines three separate types of frames:  control, data, and MAC management. Control messages are used to maintain state between the AC = and the WTP. MAC Management messages are used in the case of Split MAC to relay MAC management frames between the WTP and the AC. Data = messages are clearly used to transport user data when it is tunneled between the = WTP and the AC.

 

The data frame format includes a = network identifier which allows data from different logical groups to remain = separated. This is referred as a desirable objective in the Objectives Draft = description for traffic separation.

 

The CTP capabilities exchange = allows the WTP to inform the AC of the number of logical groups that it = supports.

 

The eval team felt that since we = did not specify the OIDs to configure the WTP to tunnel or not to tunnel, we = are partially compliant with this objective.  In order to be fully = compliant we need to fully define the mechanism and OID that is used to configure = the tunneling mechanism. However there are no CAPWAP objectives that = mandate the configuration of data tunneling.  This was an = “implied” objective and it makes sense to some extent.

 

5.1.5 Firmware = Trigger

     &nbs= p;      The eval team consistently gave the protocols a P rating if the state = machine did not allow a firmware trigger during normal running state.  = They felt that this flexibility was required.  Implementation wise this is = currently supported.  The protocol draft does not explicitly define the = state transitions for going from running state to software update = state.  However, in our opinion, the usefulness of this capability is = debatable.

 

CTP defines a trigger which = signals and out-of-band mechanism for firmware upgrade. The trigger mechanism can = be used at any time once a secure connection has been established between the = WTP and the AC.  There is nothing in CTP that prevents the firmware = upgrade to be triggered while in running state. There is nothing in CTP that would = prevent an implementation from continuing to service clients in running while = upgrading firmware.

 

We would request clarification = from the evaluation team on CTP was not fully compliant in this objective. =

 

5.1.6 Monitor = System

       =
;        This is the first =
problematic evaluation.  The Objectives draft states that the =
protocol “MUST allow for the exchange of statistics, congestion =
and other WLAN state information.”.  We don’t see how =
this objective was not met with the CTP draft.  CTP-Stats-Notify, =
CTP-Stats-Req and CTP-Stats-Rsp enable the WTP to send statistics =
information periodically on its own, and the other two messages allow =
the AC to command the WTP to send statistics upon request.  =
Section 5.3.10 of the CTP draft specifies that the statistics =
information that comes from the WTP is as defined in the IEEE 802.11 =
Annex D MIB specification.  
 
  &nb=
sp;            =
We believe that CTP complies with this objective.  Furthermore, =
our novel approach of using SNMP pdu and OIDs to define the =
configuration and statistics of the radio specific technology makes our =
protocol stronger in the compliance of this objective because of its =
flexibility to non 802.11 radio technology.  Each non-802.11 radio =
technology comes with its corresponding MIB definition and contains the =
most appropriate statistics information.  In the case of 802.11 =
Annex D (normative) ASN.1 encoding of the MAC and PHY MIB, the =
dot11CountersEntry table as well as other tables provide more than =
sufficient statistics and counters for a full monitoring of the 802.11 =
manifestations of a CAPWAP system.
 
Using SNMP =
pdu’s in CTP allows the CAPWAP working group to directly leverage =
new amendments to the IEEE 802 wireless standards without continually =
having to revise the CAPWAP protocol. It also significantly simplifies =
the binding to other wireless standards besides 802.11. =
 
We would =
request clarification from the evaluation team on why CTP is partially =
compliant in addressing this objective.
 
5.1.7 Resource =
Control
          =
;     As per the presentation of the evaluation =
team, this objective was deemed compliant if the protocol provided the =
ability to “configure QoS mappings”.  While CTP does =
not define any explicit configuration messages for QoS this capability =
is implicitly met by the fact that we have stated that we would use =
standard 802.11 MIBs for the configuration and statistics.  The =
amendment to 802.11 known as 802.11e specifies a MIB in which all WLAN =
QoS parameters are defined both for configuration as well as =
statistics.  We believe that no further definition of this was =
required.  Furthermore, the CTP data header has a Policy field =
which allows for CAPWAP implementations to enforce QoS on the CAPWAP =
packets in addition to the MU data.
 
The CAPWAP =
objective draft clearly states “The CAPWAP protocol MUST map the =
IEEE 802.11e QoS priorities to  equivalent QoS priorities across =
the switching and wireless medium segments”. The CTP protocol =
uses IEEE 802.11e SNMP oids to configure the mapping at the AC, which =
can distribute that information to the WTP’s. Furthermore, =
Section 5.4 of the CTP specification states: =
“Data packet coming into the AC from the wired network is a =
voice  packet as indicated by the TOS or DSCP markings in the IP =
header.  This TOS/DSCP byte will be copied to the outer =
transport header for  =
proper priority handling within the network between the AP and the =
AC.  However, for appropriate classification at the AP, the AC =
sets the Policy field to a value that allows the AP to prioritize this =
packet over other data packets that may have a lower priority.  =
Similarly in the reverse direction, the MU may have set =
the  appropriate fields in the original IP header, but the AP can =
interpret those bits and map them to the Policy field in the CTP-Data =
header for special dispensation at the AC.  =
          =
;     
We would request clarification from the evaluation team on =
why CTP is partially compliant in addressing this =
objective.
 
In contrast, our quick perusal of the SLAPP protocol and =
SLAPP self evaluation revealed that the protocol has no explicit =
provisions for QoS mapping either for CAPWAP tunnel data or for the =
Mobile Unit data, it merely has 802.11e parameters in the 802.11 =
control protocol.  The most detailed configuration capability was =
defined within the LWAPP draft only.
 
5.1.8          =
;      Protocol =
Security
          =
;     
The support for asymmetric authentication within the =
CAPWAP protocol was deemed mandatory by the evaluation team in order to =
receive a Compliant indication.  In the context of the CAPWAP =
protocol, asymmetric authentication refers to the presence of a =
mechanism, within the protocol, to allow the WTP and the AC to conduct =
different types of authentication.  For example, the WTP can =
authenticate the AC by the presence of a duly signed digital =
certificate, whereas the AC would authenticate the WTP based on the =
presence of a pre-shared key.  This also implies that the =
authentication may not necessarily be mutual.  That is, both sides =
don’t necessarily have to authenticate each other.  =
 
  &nb=
sp;            =
The CTP protocol indeed does not have inherent support for non-mutual =
or asymmetric authentication of the WTP and AC.  However, neither =
do any of the other protocols other than perhaps SLAPP which uses DTLS =
(a datagram version of the TLS protocol).  For example, LWAPP =
provides for mutual certificate based authentication OR mutual =
pre-shared key based authentication.  It does not provide for the =
ability for a non-mutual authentication where one side does not =
authenticate the other.
 
  &nb=
sp;            =
Another matter of concern is that the CAPWAP email list had a long =
discussion on the need for non-mutual authentication and at most the =
conclusion would have been that it is not a “MUST have” but =
rather a “SHOULD have”.  After reviewing the final =
objective draft indeed it has some verbage on this issue which a little =
confusing: “CAPWAP MUST NOT prevent the use of asymmetric =
authentication.”  Indeed, we do not support asymmetric =
authentication.  But do we prevent its use?  It seems like =
the evaluation team took the spirit of the text and interpreted it as =
asymmetric authentication MUST be supported.  If it is a SHOULD be =
supported, then we should Comply with the requirement.  This is =
clearly a case disagreement on the interpretation of the =
objectives.
 
5.1.9        &nbs=
p;       System =
Security
 
The objective =
states very clearly the following: “The design of the CAPWAP =
protocol MUST NOT allow for any compromises to the WLAN system by =
external entities.”  It is not clear based on the table in =
which we were granted an “F” for this protocol objective, =
as well as the two bullets in the presentation, as to why the =
evaluation team felt we did not comply with this objective.  We =
don’t see anything in the protocol, pending a thorough security =
review that allows for any compromise to the WLAN system by external =
entities.  This is the case where we would be very interested in =
understanding what review did the evaluation team do to deem the =
protocol insecure.
 
The 802.11i standard uses EAPoL messages between the STA =
and the WTP for authentication. These messages are treated as data =
messages transmitted over the wireless medium between the STA and the =
WTP. In the CTP protocol, these messages are relayed across the =
switching infrastructure from the WTP to the AC. If these messages are =
deemed to be protected across the wireless medium, why would =
this compromise security across the =
wired medium between the WTP and the AC?
 
We would request clarification from the evaluation team on =
why CTP failed to be compliant in addressing this =
objective.
 
5.1.10          =
;   Protocol =
Specifications
          =
;     The evaluation team deemed the CTP protocol =
specification draft to be incomplete.  Therefore, we have received =
partial compliance within this category.  The only explanation we =
see for this is that CTP relies on external MIB definitions for proper =
and full interoperability.  
 

In addition to the mandatory = objectives stated above, there are a few Desirable objectives as well.

 

We would like to state CTP has = been implemented and is used in products that are working in the market = today. There may be interpretation and clarification issues with the specification, = but we fail to see why the protocol is incomplete. There are clarification and interpretations issues with all protocol drafts under evaluation. For = that matter, there are still interpretation issues on the CAPWAP taxonomy. = For instance, working group has adopted a work item to clarify the = interpretation of the definition of split versus local MAC behavior.

 

5.2.1 Multiple = Authentication

     &nbs= p;      The evaluation team provided a “P” in this category. =  Not only does CTP allow different authentication mechanisms per logical group, = it also allows different data paths per logical group.  We fail to see the reasoning behind receiving a “P” in this = category.

 

The objective states: “The = CAPWAP protocol MUST support different authentication mechanisms   = in addition to IEEE 802.11i.”

 

The CTP draft allows the WTP to = advertise multiple logical wireless networks in the capabilities exchange with = the AC. The AC can then assign different authentication policies to each = logical group on the WTP as if each logical group corresponded to a separate MAC on = the WTP. There is nothing in the protocol to prevent the AC from configuring = different authentication on each logical segment of the WTP.

 

We would request clarification = from the evaluation team on why CTP is partially compliant in addressing this = objective.

 

Thanks

 

---

Inderpreet Singh

Chief = Architect

Chantry Networks Inc., A Siemens Company

inderpreet.singh@siemens.com

Work: 905-363-6412

Mobile: 416-831-3705

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A3F4.E20E0226-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From kennamer@emailaccount.com Fri Aug 19 15:19:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E6COY-0004wR-EA; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:19:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23751; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E6CyZ-0003JJ-3F; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:56:27 -0400 Received: from [61.251.0.42] (helo=MASTER1) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1E6COX-0007Xv-E0; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:19:14 -0400 Received: from scrimmage.gmyhiw.aggressor.alfalfa.com by stuttgart.gadfly.service.com (xnhupfix) with SMTP id 2B29E820340 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:01:20 +0600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:55:20 -0500 From: "Chelsea Oneal" To: Subject: Save hundreds every month on low rates X-Mailer: KYX CP/M FNORD 5602 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. 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From capwap-admin@frascone.com Fri Aug 19 22:50:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E6JR2-0005qi-Vl for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:50:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA18561 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B66DB202C6; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6546F20277; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:50:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16DAA20277 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kremlin.juniper.net (kremlin.juniper.net [207.17.137.120]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B6620263 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown (HELO beta.jnpr.net) (172.24.18.109) by kremlin.juniper.net with ESMTP; 19 Aug 2005 19:49:54 -0700 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,127,1122879600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="473403923:sNHT62227008" Received: from hadron.jnpr.net ([172.24.15.25]) by beta.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:49:52 -0700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A531.D5F4737A" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWikSS022xpNDJLROqNALCD8zPL7wARo07gABitmFAAfa7mgA== From: "Changming Liu" To: "Darren Loher" , "Cheng Hong" , "Gopal Dommety" , "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2005 02:49:52.0036 (UTC) FILETIME=[D67C0640:01C5A531] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:49:51 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A531.D5F4737A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This brings up a very good question: is there any license/patent issue for any candidate proposal to be implemented by any vendor other than the vendors of the authors? If so, has it be raised somewhere so that whoever is willing to implement is aware of it? =20 Thanks. =20 Changming -----Original Message----- From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Darren Loher Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:58 AM To: Cheng Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 One of the tenets of the IETF is "running code". This is in fact a requirement to elevating a draft to a draft-standard. It is also (on the "soft-side") a measure of strength and value for a given standard when it is in place. We are not at that stage yet, but it is a hurdle that will need to be overcome to get a standard. =20 From BCP 9 / rfc2026: 4.1.2 Draft Standard =20 A specification from which at least two independent and interoperable implementations from different code bases have been developed, and for which sufficient successful operational experience has been obtained, may be elevated to the "Draft Standard" level. For the purposes of this section, "interoperable" means to be functionally equivalent or interchangeable components of the system or process in which they are used. If patented or otherwise controlled technology is required for implementation, the separate implementations must also have resulted from separate exercise of the licensing process. Elevation to Draft Standard is a major advance in status, indicating a strong belief that the specification is mature and will be useful. =20 The requirement for at least two independent and interoperable implementations applies to all of the options and features of the specification. In cases in which one or more options or features have not been demonstrated in at least two interoperable implementations, the specification may advance to the Draft Standard level only if those options or features are removed. =20 The Working Group chair is responsible for documenting the specific implementations which qualify the specification for Draft or Internet Standard status along with documentation about testing of the interoperation of these implementations. The documentation must include information about the support of each of the individual options and features. This documentation should be submitted to the Area Director with the protocol action request. (see Section 6) =20 =20 =20 =20 -Darren =20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng Hong Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:20 PM To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 Hi Gopal, =20 Having running code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the top priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us from the real goal. =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34 AM To: Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.=20 =09 I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However, Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability.=20 =09 Cheers, -Gopal =09 At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote: =09 =09 There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion. =09 =20 =09 One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. =09 =20 =09 -mani =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 =20 =09 Hello All, =09 During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? =09 =09 Regards,=20 =09 -Gopal=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A531.D5F4737A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This brings up a very good = question: is there any license/patent  issue for any candidate proposal to be implemented by any vendor other than the vendors of the authors? If so, = has it be raised somewhere so that whoever is willing  to implement is = aware of it?

 

Thanks.

 

Changming

-----Original = Message-----
From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Darren Loher
Sent:
Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:58 = AM
To: Cheng Hong; Gopal = Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

One of the = tenets of the IETF is “running code”.  This is in fact a requirement = to elevating a draft to a draft-standard.  It is also (on the “soft-side”) a measure of strength and value for a given = standard when it is in place.  We are not at that stage yet, but it is a = hurdle that will need to be overcome to get a standard.

 

From BCP 9 / = rfc2026:

4.1.2  Draft =
Standard
 
   A specification from which at =
least two independent and interoperable
   implementations from different =
code bases have been developed, and
   for which sufficient successful =
operational experience has been
   obtained, may be elevated to the =
"Draft Standard" level.  For the
   purposes of this section, =
"interoperable" means to be =
functionally
   equivalent or interchangeable =
components of the system or process in
   which they are used.  If =
patented or otherwise controlled technology
   is required for implementation, =
the separate implementations must
   also have resulted from separate =
exercise of the licensing process.
   Elevation to Draft Standard is a =
major advance in status, indicating
   a strong belief that the =
specification is mature and will be useful.
 
   The requirement for at least two =
independent and interoperable
   implementations applies to all =
of the options and features of the
   specification.  In cases in =
which one or more options or features
   have not been demonstrated in at =
least two interoperable
   implementations, the =
specification may advance to the Draft Standard
   level only if those options or =
features are removed.
 
   The Working Group chair is =
responsible for documenting the specific
   implementations which qualify =
the specification for Draft or Internet
   Standard status along with =
documentation about testing of the
   interoperation of these =
implementations.  The documentation must
   include information about the =
support of each of the individual
   options and features.  This =
documentation should be submitted to the
   Area Director with the protocol =
action request. (see Section 6)
 

 

 

 

-Darren

 

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng Hong
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, = 2005 9:20 PM
To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

Hi = Gopal,

 

Having running = code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective = details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is = achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, = but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the = top priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to = meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us = from the real goal.

 

cheers

 

Cheng = Hong

 

 

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Wednesday, August = 17, 2005 2:34 AM
To: Mani, Mahalingam = (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals


Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised  that there is no = need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.

I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However,  Fundmental/Significant deviations between the = specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability. =

Cheers,
-Gopal

At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote:

There s no = emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation = criterion.

 

One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the = focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself = has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite = a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions.

 

-mani

 

From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, = 2005 6:04 PM
To: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals = might differ from what is  implemented significantly.  I was = wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of = the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered?


Regards,

-Gopal

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From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 22 14:54:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E7HRB-0006O2-Mq for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:54:27 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03995 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC56B20437; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD8520459; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:54:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2DB20459 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A8E20437 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Aug 2005 11:53:40 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j7MIrX0L020503 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:36 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC7AFD36@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWjhIOe+m2NWkpdQ+uDRw0eIVs8sgDvKtng From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2005 18:53:36.0421 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD547550:01C5A74A] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, The issue is not, as you put it, "just an unfortunate bunch of FUD". That is a cute attempt at diverting people from the issue. But ultimately, it is futile. The folks in the CAPWAP group can research and address this issue now, or surely those that implement and deploy a CAPWAP protocol in the future will have to address it in the future. =20 The requirement for certification of RF devices is not going to go away. Let me quote a few bits from the FCC regulations for unlicensed devices: Section 15.15 General technical requirements. (b) An intentional or unintentional radiator must be constructed such that the adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by or intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of the device in violation of the regulations. Section 15.29 Inspection by the Commission. (c) The party responsible for the compliance of any device subject to this Part shall promptly furnish to the Commission or its representatives such information as may be requested concerning the operation of the device, including a copy of any measurements made for obtaining an equipment authorization or demonstrating compliance with the regulations. Section 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement. (b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this Section and in Section 15.23 of this Part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of this Part shall be certificated by the Commission pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of Part 2 of this Chapter prior to marketing. Who would you say is "the party responsible for the compliance" of a device that has been downloaded with third party code to operate the radio in an AP under the SLAPP proposal? If, for example, Company A were to distribute code written by Company B to Company C to download using SLAPP onto a WTP from Company D, who is responsible for ensuring that the device is operating within the regulations? In this scenario, who is responsible for furnishing to the Commission a copy of the measurements made for obtaining equipment authorization? To address your other point, yes, we certify using the ART test program. We also incorporate the identical parameters and code required to maintain that certification in our operational code for the APs. There is no sleight of hand here, as it appears you are implying. The issue of certification when an unauthorized third party downloads code onto a device incorporating a radio is real, as will be the fines levied by the FCC upon that third party (or perhaps the third party's customer, or both) for operating an RF emitting device (an "intentional radiator" in FCC terms) without the proper certifications. You can try telling everyone to "ignore the man behind the curtain" and believe that you are living in Oz. But, in actuality, you are dreaming. -Bob =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:24 PM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 Bob, After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of Airespace's AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your operational AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received certification for your APs by running code on them that is not your's and is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is loaded onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them with this new code load. So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is just an unfortunate bunch of FUD. Dan. On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just because > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > =20 >=20 > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has everything to > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual operations > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the network, > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poked into > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for ease of > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protocol that > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC to > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a software > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal to > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without the > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other regulatory > domains, as well. >=20 >=20 > -Bob > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 >=20 > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. >=20 > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but that's > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore whether > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAPWAP.=20 >=20 > Dan. >=20 > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about > the > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he > was > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would > like > > to discuss this further on the list. =20 > >=20 > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will require > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code > is > > not from the entity that received the original certification for the > > device, will require a new certification of that device with the new, > > third party code. > >=20 > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in North > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an identifying > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party WTP > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now also > be > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > >=20 > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports for > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon > vendors. > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every WTP > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory > > certification with every AC vendor. > >=20 > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP vendors. > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several times > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification for > an > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied by > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. > It > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > >=20 > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > sufficient > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be interoperable. > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and model > > numbers. > >=20 > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry > for > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated with > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large number > of > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost also > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > >=20 > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for CAPWAP > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and widely > > interoperable products. > >=20 > > -Bob > >=20 > > Bob O'Hara > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > >=20 > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > =20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 22 17:05:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E7JTo-0005pn-Cs for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:05:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21162 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:05:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB99C204D5; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D767204CB; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:05:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29064204CB for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homebrew.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BE1204C1 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.trpz.com [127.0.0.1]) by homebrew.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7MKxE6U089220; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508222059.j7MKxE6U089220@homebrew.trpz.com> To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 PDT." <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC7AFD36@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <89218.1124744354.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:59:14 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Bob, There's nothing cute about it. You're spreading FUD-- Fear (the FCC will fine me!), Uncertainty (they don't recertify but I think we might have to), and Doubt (he was wearing his "technical advisor hat" and that must mean something). In fact, it's the opposite of cute; it's a big, smelly, steaming pile o' FUD. If this issue is, as you say, as real as the fines the FCC will levy then there is no issue. This is being done today and the FCC is not fining anyone. I was not implying any slight of hand. The thing is, you market code that did not operate the AP when it was certified and you do not recertify when you install that code on the AP. And nor should you because, as I've been saying all along, it is not necessary to recertify an AP simply because code that was not part of the original certification is downloaded onto it. To answer your question, company D had to have certified their WTP prior to marketing it (they could've ran ART_V48_build_13_alpha to get their certification, for instance). Since they are the company responsible for certification they would supply information as may be requested concerning the operation of the device to the Commission or its representatives. Dan. On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 PDT you wrote > Dan, > > The issue is not, as you put it, "just an unfortunate bunch of FUD". > That is a cute attempt at diverting people from the issue. But > ultimately, it is futile. The folks in the CAPWAP group can research > and address this issue now, or surely those that implement and deploy a > CAPWAP protocol in the future will have to address it in the future. > > The requirement for certification of RF devices is not going to go away. > Let me quote a few bits from the FCC regulations for unlicensed devices: > > Section 15.15 General technical requirements. > (b) An intentional or unintentional radiator must be constructed such > that the adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by or > intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of the > device in violation of the regulations. > > Section 15.29 Inspection by the Commission. > (c) The party responsible for the compliance of any device subject to > this Part shall promptly furnish to the Commission or its > representatives such information as may be requested concerning the > operation of the device, including a copy of any measurements made for > obtaining an equipment authorization or demonstrating compliance with > the regulations. > > Section 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement. > (b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this Section and in > Section 15.23 of this > Part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of this > Part shall be certificated by the > Commission pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of Part 2 of this > Chapter prior to marketing. > > Who would you say is "the party responsible for the compliance" of a > device that has been downloaded with third party code to operate the > radio in an AP under the SLAPP proposal? If, for example, Company A > were to distribute code written by Company B to Company C to download > using SLAPP onto a WTP from Company D, who is responsible for ensuring > that the device is operating within the regulations? In this scenario, > who is responsible for furnishing to the Commission a copy of the > measurements made for obtaining equipment authorization? > > To address your other point, yes, we certify using the ART test program. > We also incorporate the identical parameters and code required to > maintain that certification in our operational code for the APs. There > is no sleight of hand here, as it appears you are implying. > > The issue of certification when an unauthorized third party downloads > code onto a device incorporating a radio is real, as will be the fines > levied by the FCC upon that third party (or perhaps the third party's > customer, or both) for operating an RF emitting device (an "intentional > radiator" in FCC terms) without the proper certifications. > > You can try telling everyone to "ignore the man behind the curtain" and > believe that you are living in Oz. But, in actuality, you are dreaming. > > -Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:24 PM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification > > Bob, > > After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of > Airespace's > AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your > operational > AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received > certification for your APs by running code on them that is not your's > and > is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is > loaded > onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them with this > new code load. > > So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is just an > unfortunate bunch of FUD. > > Dan. > > On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just > because > > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > > > > > > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has everything to > > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual operations > > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the network, > > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poked into > > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for ease > of > > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protocol > that > > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC to > > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a software > > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal to > > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without the > > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other regulatory > > domains, as well. > > > > > > -Bob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification > > > > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. > > > > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but > that's > > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore > whether > > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAPWAP. > > > > Dan. > > > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about > > the > > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received > > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he > > was > > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would > > like > > > to discuss this further on the list. > > > > > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will > require > > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code > > is > > > not from the entity that received the original certification for the > > > device, will require a new certification of that device with the > new, > > > third party code. > > > > > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in > North > > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an > identifying > > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party > WTP > > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now > also > > be > > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > > > > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports > for > > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon > > vendors. > > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every > WTP > > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory > > > certification with every AC vendor. > > > > > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP > vendors. > > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory > > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several > times > > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification > for > > an > > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. > > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied > by > > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. > > It > > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > > > > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > > sufficient > > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be > interoperable. > > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships > > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and > model > > > numbers. > > > > > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry > > for > > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated > with > > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large > number > > of > > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost > also > > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early > > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > > > > > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for > CAPWAP > > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and > widely > > > interoperable products. > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > Bob O'Hara > > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > > > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 22 19:16:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E7LWY-0000Xl-Hp for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:16:15 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03884 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE8B204DA; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E992046A; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:16:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EA1204B0 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7492046A for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:15:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (171.68.223.138) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Aug 2005 16:15:34 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j7MNEs3K010984 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:29 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC7AFE94@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWnXRo3AGTWcz1mQKizWyzVrJoB8gADQuyw From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2005 23:15:29.0819 (UTC) FILETIME=[633EB6B0:01C5A76F] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:28 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, Diversion to ad hominem attacks does not serve the needs of this discussion or of this group. =20 If, as you say, there are APs out there today that have been certified with code from the AP vendor that are now running code from a third party (where the AP has not been recertified to run with that code), I have to assume that you have personal knowledge of these implementations. If you would, please provide a list (or at least one example) that might be provided to the FCC as an example for them to resolve the question directly. As I said, the code from the ART program used to certify our APs and the parameters under which those APs are certified are running in the shipping AP under our controller. I am not sure which part of that statement is unclear. The fact that this code is further integrated into a larger program that performs a number of functions that do not impact the radio or its RF characteristics is irrelevant to the certification. Even if such a larger program were to modify the RF characteristics, it is possible, with limitations, for the manufacturer of the AP to file a "permissive change" with the FCC to maintain its certification. The only reason we might be able to do this is because we are the manufacturer of the AP and have previously certified the AP. An arbitrary third party is not allowed this freedom. Let me be clearer also about the example and question from my last email. Let's say Company A is a developer of AP/WTP download modules. Company B is an AC vendor that has licensed a module from Company A for download through SLAPP. Company C is the customer that has deployed the WLAN. Company D is the manufacturer of the AP/WTP that has certified the device running their own code. Your answer to my question below indicates to me that, if Cisco were Company B and Trapeze were Company D, you believe that the Trapeze certification of the AP/WTP would stand, regardless of what code Cisco might download to the Trapeze AP/WTP. Am I correct in my interpretation of your answer? If I am correct in interpreting your answer to the question, I disagree with your answer. I would find it wildly unlikely that Trapeze would stand up and claim that their AP/WTP hardware is fully compliant with the regulations when that hardware is running any code but their own. I am almost certain (though I don't speak for the company on this) that Cisco would not agree that our AP would always operate within the regulations when running any code than that supplied by Cisco. Perhaps you disagree? -Bob =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 1:59 PM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 Bob, There's nothing cute about it. You're spreading FUD-- Fear (the FCC will fine me!), Uncertainty (they don't recertify but I think we might have to), and Doubt (he was wearing his "technical advisor hat" and that must mean something). In fact, it's the opposite of cute; it's a big, smelly, steaming pile o' FUD. If this issue is, as you say, as real as the fines the FCC will levy then there is no issue. This is being done today and the FCC is not fining anyone. I was not implying any slight of hand. The thing is, you market code that did not operate the AP when it was certified and you do not recertify when you install that code on the AP. And nor should you because, as I've been saying all along, it is not necessary to recertify an AP simply because code that was not part of the original certification is downloaded onto it. To answer your question, company D had to have certified their WTP prior to marketing it (they could've ran ART_V48_build_13_alpha to get their certification, for instance). Since they are the company responsible for certification they would supply information as may be requested concerning the operation of the device to the Commission or its representatives. Dan. On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 PDT you wrote > Dan, >=20 > The issue is not, as you put it, "just an unfortunate bunch of FUD". > That is a cute attempt at diverting people from the issue. But > ultimately, it is futile. The folks in the CAPWAP group can research > and address this issue now, or surely those that implement and deploy a > CAPWAP protocol in the future will have to address it in the future. =20 >=20 > The requirement for certification of RF devices is not going to go away. > Let me quote a few bits from the FCC regulations for unlicensed devices: >=20 > Section 15.15 General technical requirements. > (b) An intentional or unintentional radiator must be constructed such > that the adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by or > intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of the > device in violation of the regulations. >=20 > Section 15.29 Inspection by the Commission. > (c) The party responsible for the compliance of any device subject to > this Part shall promptly furnish to the Commission or its > representatives such information as may be requested concerning the > operation of the device, including a copy of any measurements made for > obtaining an equipment authorization or demonstrating compliance with > the regulations. >=20 > Section 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement. > (b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this Section and in > Section 15.23 of this > Part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of this > Part shall be certificated by the > Commission pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of Part 2 of this > Chapter prior to marketing. >=20 > Who would you say is "the party responsible for the compliance" of a > device that has been downloaded with third party code to operate the > radio in an AP under the SLAPP proposal? If, for example, Company A > were to distribute code written by Company B to Company C to download > using SLAPP onto a WTP from Company D, who is responsible for ensuring > that the device is operating within the regulations? In this scenario, > who is responsible for furnishing to the Commission a copy of the > measurements made for obtaining equipment authorization? >=20 > To address your other point, yes, we certify using the ART test program. > We also incorporate the identical parameters and code required to > maintain that certification in our operational code for the APs. There > is no sleight of hand here, as it appears you are implying. >=20 > The issue of certification when an unauthorized third party downloads > code onto a device incorporating a radio is real, as will be the fines > levied by the FCC upon that third party (or perhaps the third party's > customer, or both) for operating an RF emitting device (an "intentional > radiator" in FCC terms) without the proper certifications. >=20 > You can try telling everyone to "ignore the man behind the curtain" and > believe that you are living in Oz. But, in actuality, you are dreaming. >=20 > -Bob > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:24 PM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 >=20 > Bob, >=20 > After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of > Airespace's > AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your > operational > AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received > certification for your APs by running code on them that is not your's > and > is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is > loaded > onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them with this > new code load. >=20 > So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is just an > unfortunate bunch of FUD. >=20 > Dan. >=20 > On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just > because > > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > > =20 > >=20 > > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has everything to > > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual operations > > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the network, > > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poked into > > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for ease > of > > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protocol > that > > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC to > > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a software > > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal to > > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without the > > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other regulatory > > domains, as well. > >=20 > >=20 > > -Bob > > =20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 > >=20 > > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. > >=20 > > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but > that's > > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore > whether > > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAPWAP. > >=20 > > Dan. > >=20 > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP about > > the > > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have received > > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that he > > was > > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would > > like > > > to discuss this further on the list. =20 > > >=20 > > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will > require > > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that code > > is > > > not from the entity that received the original certification for the > > > device, will require a new certification of that device with the > new, > > > third party code. > > >=20 > > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in > North > > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an > identifying > > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party > WTP > > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now > also > > be > > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > >=20 > > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports > for > > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon > > vendors. > > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every > WTP > > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain regulatory > > > certification with every AC vendor. > > >=20 > > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP > vendors. > > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each regulatory > > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several > times > > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification > for > > an > > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is supports. > > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is multiplied > by > > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in half. > > It > > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > >=20 > > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > > sufficient > > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be > interoperable. > > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business relationships > > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and > model > > > numbers. > > >=20 > > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to entry > > for > > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated > with > > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large > number > > of > > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost > also > > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the early > > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > > >=20 > > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for > CAPWAP > > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and > widely > > > interoperable products. > > >=20 > > > -Bob > > >=20 > > > Bob O'Hara > > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > >=20 > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > =20 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Mon Aug 22 19:50:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E7M3X-0000ND-Av for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:50:20 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05333 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C05204CF; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555FC2047E; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:50:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9782047E for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.centerbeam.com (smtp4.centerbeam.com [63.120.115.248]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABE82046A for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:49:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cba0e2k00.CBA0.centerbeam.com ([64.95.101.25]) by smtp4.centerbeam.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:52:51 -0700 Received: from CBA0E2K06.CBA0.centerbeam.com ([64.95.101.40]) by cba0e2k00.CBA0.centerbeam.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:49:13 -0700 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A774.197ACEA5" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWikSS022xpNDJLROqNALCD8zPL7wARo07gABitmFAAfa7mgACQop1A From: "Darren Loher" To: "Changming Liu" , "Cheng Hong" , "Gopal Dommety" , "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2005 23:49:13.0149 (UTC) FILETIME=[193E5ED0:01C5A774] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:49:12 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A774.197ACEA5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've asked similar questions. To my knowledge, the only intellectual property disclosure that has been filed in the CAPWAP working group is regarding LWAPP. You can read it at: =20 http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamoby-lwapp.t xt =20 I have not seen any disclosure from the authors of CTP, WiCoP or SLAPP. =20 -Darren =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Changming Liu [mailto:cliu@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 8:50 PM To: Darren Loher; Cheng Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 This brings up a very good question: is there any license/patent issue for any candidate proposal to be implemented by any vendor other than the vendors of the authors? If so, has it be raised somewhere so that whoever is willing to implement is aware of it? =20 Thanks. =20 Changming -----Original Message----- From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Darren Loher Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:58 AM To: Cheng Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 One of the tenets of the IETF is "running code". This is in fact a requirement to elevating a draft to a draft-standard. It is also (on the "soft-side") a measure of strength and value for a given standard when it is in place. We are not at that stage yet, but it is a hurdle that will need to be overcome to get a standard. =20 From BCP 9 / rfc2026: 4.1.2 Draft Standard =20 A specification from which at least two independent and interoperable implementations from different code bases have been developed, and for which sufficient successful operational experience has been obtained, may be elevated to the "Draft Standard" level. For the purposes of this section, "interoperable" means to be functionally equivalent or interchangeable components of the system or process in which they are used. If patented or otherwise controlled technology is required for implementation, the separate implementations must also have resulted from separate exercise of the licensing process. Elevation to Draft Standard is a major advance in status, indicating a strong belief that the specification is mature and will be useful. =20 The requirement for at least two independent and interoperable implementations applies to all of the options and features of the specification. In cases in which one or more options or features have not been demonstrated in at least two interoperable implementations, the specification may advance to the Draft Standard level only if those options or features are removed. =20 The Working Group chair is responsible for documenting the specific implementations which qualify the specification for Draft or Internet Standard status along with documentation about testing of the interoperation of these implementations. The documentation must include information about the support of each of the individual options and features. This documentation should be submitted to the Area Director with the protocol action request. (see Section 6) =20 =20 =20 =20 -Darren =20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng Hong Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:20 PM To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 Hi Gopal, =20 Having running code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the top priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us from the real goal. =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34 AM To: Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.=20 =09 I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However, Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability.=20 =09 Cheers, -Gopal =09 At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote: There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion. =09 =20 =09 One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. =09 =20 =09 -mani =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 =20 =09 Hello All, =09 During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? =09 =09 Regards,=20 =09 -Gopal=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A774.197ACEA5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’ve asked similar questions.&= nbsp; To my knowledge, the only intellectual property disclosure that has been filed = in the CAPWAP working group is regarding LWAPP.  You can read it at:

 

http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamo= by-lwapp.txt

 

I have not seen any disclosure from = the authors of CTP, WiCoP or SLAPP.

 

-Darren

=

 

 


From: Changm= ing Liu [mailto:cliu@juniper.net]
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2= 005 8:50 PM
To: Darren Loher; Cheng Ho= ng; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exis= iting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals
=

 

This brings up a very good question:= is there any license/patent  issue for any candidate proposal to be implemented by any vendor other than the vendors of the authors? If so, h= as it be raised somewhere so that whoever is willing  to implement is awar= e of it?

 

Thanks.

=

 

Changming

-----Original Message-----<= br> From: capwap-admin@frascon= e.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On= Behalf Of Darren Loher
Sent: Wednesday, August 17= , 2005 7:58 AM
To: Cheng Hong; Gopal Domm= ety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exis= iting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals
=

 

One of the tenets= of the IETF is “running code”.  This is in fact a requirement t= o elevating a draft to a draft-standard.  It is also (on the “soft-side”) a measure of strength and value for a given stan= dard when it is in place.  We are not at that stage yet, but it is a hurd= le that will need to be overcome to get a standard.=

 

From BCP 9 / rfc2= 026:

4.1.2  Draft Standard
 
   A specification from which at lea=
st two independent and interoperable
   implementations from different co=
de bases have been developed, and
   for which sufficient successful o=
perational experience has been
   obtained, may be elevated to the =
"Draft Standard" level.  For the<=
/pre>
   purposes of this section, "i=
nteroperable" means to be functionally
   equivalent or interchangeable com=
ponents of the system or process in
   which they are used.  If pat=
ented or otherwise controlled technology
   is required for implementation, t= he separate implementations must
   also have resulted from separate =
exercise of the licensing process.
   Elevation to Draft Standard is a =
major advance in status, indicating
   a strong belief that the specific=
ation is mature and will be useful.
 
   The requirement for at least two =
independent and interoperable
   implementations applies to all of=
 the options and features of the
   specification.  In cases in =
which one or more options or features
   have not been demonstrated in at =
least two interoperable
   implementations, the specificatio=
n may advance to the Draft Standard
   level only if those options or fe=
atures are removed.
 
   The Working Group chair is respon=
sible for documenting the specific
   implementations which qualify the=
 specification for Draft or Internet
   Standard status along with docume=
ntation about testing of the
   interoperation of these implement=
ations.  The documentation must
   include information about the sup=
port of each of the individual
   options and features.  This =
documentation should be submitted to the
   Area Director with the protocol a= ction request. (see Section 6)
 

 

 

 

-Darren

 

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng Hong
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, = 2005 9:20 PM
To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exis= iting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals
=

 

Hi Gopal,<= /font>

 

Having running co= de is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective detail= s and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is achie= ved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, = but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the top= priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to meet= our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us f= rom the real goal.

 

cheers

 

Cheng Hong=

 

 

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Wednesday, August 17= , 2005 2:34 AM
To: Mani, Mahalingam (Maha= lingam)
Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exis= iting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals
=


Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised  that there is no n= eed for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.

I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However,  Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specificatio= ns and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability. =

Cheers,
-Gopal

At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote:

There s no emphas= is yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion.=

 

One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focu= s was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself ha= s been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite = a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions.

 

-mani

 =

From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2= 005 6:04 PM
To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisitin= g Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals mig= ht differ from what is  implemented significantly.  I was wonderin= g if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of th= e CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running c= ode" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered?


Regards,

-Gopal

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A774.197ACEA5-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 23 02:05:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E7Rue-0001Vf-NB for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:05:34 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA07105 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A512050F; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB48720503; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:05:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E52720503 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from borg.juniper.net (borg.juniper.net [207.17.137.119]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B504F20500 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown (HELO beta.jnpr.net) (172.24.18.109) by borg.juniper.net with ESMTP; 22 Aug 2005 23:04:43 -0700 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,132,1122879600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="488865978:sNHT55668104" Received: from hadron.jnpr.net ([172.24.15.25]) by beta.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:04:42 -0700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A7A8.8D2779DC" Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWnqI0nRoq8gaxpSYKK/ejoIORzNg== From: "Changming Liu" To: "Darren Loher" , "Cheng Hong" , "Gopal Dommety" , "Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2005 06:04:42.0330 (UTC) FILETIME=[8DAE93A0:01C5A7A8] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:04:41 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A7A8.8D2779DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Darren, =20 Thanks for the info. Just took a quick look at the Airespace's Statement about IPR and found a statement below:=20 =20 "Airespace hereby covenants that it will not assert any patent claims contained in any of the above-identified pending patent applications (if and when issued as a Patent) against any party that makes, uses, sells, imports, or offers for sale, an implementation of the LWAPP protocol as specified in the Specification, assuming it is adopted." =20 I have a trivial question: What does "adopted" mean? Does it mean when it is selected by the eval team as the "chosen one", when it becomes an experimental standard or when it becomes a full standard? If the last one is the case, how can other vendors implement it so that two or more interoperable copies can be implemented to meet RFC2026's requirement? =20 =20 Pat, do you mind elaborating it a bit more?=20 =20 Thanks. =20 Changming =20 ________________________________ From: Darren Loher [mailto:DLoher@rovingplanet.com]=20 Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:49 PM To: Changming Liu; Cheng Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 I've asked similar questions. To my knowledge, the only intellectual property disclosure that has been filed in the CAPWAP working group is regarding LWAPP. You can read it at: =20 http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamoby-lwapp.t xt =20 I have not seen any disclosure from the authors of CTP, WiCoP or SLAPP. =20 -Darren =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Changming Liu [mailto:cliu@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 8:50 PM To: Darren Loher; Cheng Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 This brings up a very good question: is there any license/patent issue for any candidate proposal to be implemented by any vendor other than the vendors of the authors? If so, has it be raised somewhere so that whoever is willing to implement is aware of it? =20 Thanks. =20 Changming -----Original Message----- From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Darren Loher Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:58 AM To: Cheng Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 One of the tenets of the IETF is "running code". This is in fact a requirement to elevating a draft to a draft-standard. It is also (on the "soft-side") a measure of strength and value for a given standard when it is in place. We are not at that stage yet, but it is a hurdle that will need to be overcome to get a standard. =20 From BCP 9 / rfc2026: 4.1.2 Draft Standard =20 A specification from which at least two independent and interoperable implementations from different code bases have been developed, and for which sufficient successful operational experience has been obtained, may be elevated to the "Draft Standard" level. For the purposes of this section, "interoperable" means to be functionally equivalent or interchangeable components of the system or process in which they are used. If patented or otherwise controlled technology is required for implementation, the separate implementations must also have resulted from separate exercise of the licensing process. Elevation to Draft Standard is a major advance in status, indicating a strong belief that the specification is mature and will be useful. =20 The requirement for at least two independent and interoperable implementations applies to all of the options and features of the specification. In cases in which one or more options or features have not been demonstrated in at least two interoperable implementations, the specification may advance to the Draft Standard level only if those options or features are removed. =20 The Working Group chair is responsible for documenting the specific implementations which qualify the specification for Draft or Internet Standard status along with documentation about testing of the interoperation of these implementations. The documentation must include information about the support of each of the individual options and features. This documentation should be submitted to the Area Director with the protocol action request. (see Section 6) =20 =20 =20 =20 -Darren =20 =20 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng Hong Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:20 PM To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =20 Hi Gopal, =20 Having running code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the top priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us from the real goal. =20 cheers =20 Cheng Hong =20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34 AM To: Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised that there is no need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.=20 =09 I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However, Fundmental/Significant deviations between the specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability.=20 =09 Cheers, -Gopal =09 At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) wrote: There s no emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation criterion. =09 =20 =09 One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions. =09 =20 =09 -mani =20 From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:04 PM To: capwap@frascone.com Subject: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals =09 =20 =09 Hello All, =09 During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals might differ from what is implemented significantly. I was wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered? =09 =09 Regards,=20 =09 -Gopal=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A7A8.8D2779DC Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Darren,
 
Thanks =
for the info. Just took a quick look at the Airespace's Statement about =
IPR and found a statement below: =
 
“Airespace hereby covenants that it =
will not assert any patent
claims =
contained in any of the above-identified pending =
patent
applications (if and when issued as a Patent) =
against any party that
makes, =
uses, sells, imports, or offers for sale, an implementation =
of
the LWAPP =
protocol as specified in the Specification, assuming it =
is
adopted.”
=

 

I have a trivial question: What = does “adopted” mean? Does it mean when it is selected by the eval team as the = “chosen one”, when it becomes an experimental standard or when it becomes = a full standard? If the last one is the case, how can other vendors implement it so that = two or more interoperable copies can be implemented to meet RFC2026’s = requirement?  

 

Pat, do you mind elaborating it a = bit more?

 

Thanks.

=

 

Changming

 


From: = Darren Loher [mailto:DLoher@rovingplanet.com]
Sent: Monday, August 22, = 2005 4:49 PM
To: Changming Liu; Cheng = Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP = Proposals

 

I’ve asked similar = questions.  To my knowledge, the only intellectual property disclosure that has been = filed in the CAPWAP working group is regarding LWAPP.  You can read it = at:

 

http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamo= by-lwapp.txt

 

I have not seen any disclosure from = the authors of CTP, WiCoP or SLAPP.

 

-Darren

=

 

 


From: = Changming Liu [mailto:cliu@juniper.net]
Sent: Friday, August 19, = 2005 8:50 PM
To: Darren Loher; Cheng = Hong; Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP = Proposals

 

This brings up a very good = question: is there any license/patent  issue for any candidate proposal to be implemented by any vendor other than the vendors of the authors? If so, = has it be raised somewhere so that whoever is willing  to implement is = aware of it?

 

Thanks.

=

 

Changming

-----Original = Message-----
From: = capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Darren Loher
Sent: Wednesday, August = 17, 2005 7:58 AM
To: Cheng Hong; Gopal = Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP = Proposals

 

One of the = tenets of the IETF is “running code”.  This is in fact a requirement = to elevating a draft to a draft-standard.  It is also (on the = “soft-side”) a measure of strength and value for a given standard when it is in = place.  We are not at that stage yet, but it is a hurdle that will need to be = overcome to get a standard.

 

From BCP 9 / = rfc2026:

4.1.2  Draft =
Standard
 
   A specification from which at =
least two independent and =
interoperable
   implementations from different =
code bases have been developed, and
   for which sufficient successful =
operational experience has been
   obtained, may be elevated to the =
"Draft Standard" level.  For =
the
   purposes of this section, =
"interoperable" means to be =
functionally
   equivalent or interchangeable =
components of the system or process =
in
   which they are used.  If =
patented or otherwise controlled =
technology
   is required for implementation, =
the separate implementations must
   also have resulted from separate =
exercise of the licensing process.
   Elevation to Draft Standard is a =
major advance in status, indicating
   a strong belief that the =
specification is mature and will be =
useful.
 
   The requirement for at least two =
independent and interoperable
   implementations applies to all =
of the options and features of the
   specification.  In cases in =
which one or more options or features
   have not been demonstrated in at =
least two interoperable
   implementations, the =
specification may advance to the Draft =
Standard
   level only if those options or =
features are removed.
 
   The Working Group chair is =
responsible for documenting the =
specific
   implementations which qualify =
the specification for Draft or =
Internet
   Standard status along with =
documentation about testing of the
   interoperation of these =
implementations.  The documentation =
must
   include information about the =
support of each of the individual
   options and features.  This =
documentation should be submitted to =
the
   Area Director with the protocol =
action request. (see Section 6)
 

 

 

 

-Darren

 

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Cheng Hong
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, = 2005 9:20 PM
To: Gopal Dommety; Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP = Proposals

 

Hi = Gopal,

 

Having running = code is nice. However, before the group agree on the common objective = details and selection criteria, running code means nothing. Interoperability is = achieved by a well defined specification, not the implementation of that specification (the running code). People can implement the IP ugly, = but it should still be able to interoperate with other IP nodes. I guess the = top priority now is to work on a specification that contains features to = meet our agreed objectives. Emphasizing on running code now will just deviate us = from the real goal.

 

cheers

 

Cheng = Hong

 

 

 


From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Wednesday, August = 17, 2005 2:34 AM
To: Mani, Mahalingam = (Mahalingam)
Cc: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP = Proposals


Thanks for the clarification. I am bit surprised  that there is no = need for an implentation of a protocol for it to be selected.

I understand that making minor extensions to Protocols are necessary. However,  Fundmental/Significant deviations between the = specifications and implentations will not get us anycloser to the goal of interoperability. =

Cheers,
-Gopal

At 11:26 PM 8/15/2005 -0600, Mani, Mahalingam (Mahalingam) = wrote:

There s no = emphasis yet to running code at least not set as an Objective or Evaluation = criterion.

 

One way to look at this is that as many as 15-16 implementation experiences broadly fell into two categories; and the = focus was to identify and seek commonality in architecture/split which by itself = has been something to converge on; before contemplating possible implementation adoptions given most of the candidate protocol specs kept evolving quite = a bit across the last two-three IETF sessions.

 

-mani

 

From: capwap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Gopal Dommety
Sent: Monday, August 15, = 2005 6:04 PM
To: = capwap@frascone.com
Subject: [Capwap] = Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals

 

Hello All,

During the last IETF, I realized that some of the submitted proposals = might differ from what is  implemented significantly.  I was = wondering if there is any documentation of the number of implemetations for each of = the CAPWAP Protocols (as submitted)? Is there any emphasis to "running code" for the CAPWAP protocols being considered?


Regards,

-Gopal

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5A7A8.8D2779DC-- _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 24 14:08:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E7zfs-0007Cl-N0 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:32 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09278 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E32D520497; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56662046A; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF59B2046A for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homebrew.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC5A20454 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.trpz.com [127.0.0.1]) by homebrew.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7OHxvxc000807; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508241759.j7OHxvxc000807@homebrew.trpz.com> To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:28 PDT." <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC7AFE94@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <805.1124906397.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:59:57 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Bob, You're absolutely right. Diversion to ad hominem attacks would not serve the needs of this group. And it's great that no one has resorted to ad hominem attacks! In your company A-D example you have moved the goal posts. Before you had stated that merely running someone else's code on an AP required recertification. Now you're asking whether an AP can remain certified "regardless of what code [company B] might download to [Company D's] WTP". Well that's a different question altogether. I believe it would be possible to download an image onto an AP that could make it uncompliant (it could, for example, make the AP broadcast outside legal limits) and it wouldn't matter whether the company that created the downloaded image is the same as the company that certified the AP in the same place. I also believe that it is possible for a company to download an image onto another company's AP and that AP would retain it's certification. So to answer your quesiton, that depends on what kind of image Cisco downloaded on a Trapeze AP. You could do it right or you could do it wrong. But the act of downloading the image does not void the certification of the AP as you have been asserting here all along. My laptop is FCC certified. I don't know how it got certified. I do know that it was running Windows XP when I pulled it out of the box. I hate Windows XP and immediately installled FreeBSD on it. I don't believe my laptop is now in violation of FCC regulations nor do I feel it is necessary to get a different sticker on the bottom of my laptop. I am also unaware of the FCC going after anyone who has installed an operating system on a computer that was different than one it was shipped with. You have been unable to demonstrate how image download voids an AP's certification and the snippets of FCC regulations you supplied did not say anything on that subject. Similarly I have been unable to demonstrate that image download will not void an AP's certification. So to answer your last question, yes, we disagree. Unless you can come up with an FCC ruling that refers to the issue at hand and unambiguously states it voids an AP's certification then I think we should just let this thread die a well-deserved death right here. Dan. On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:28 PDT you wrote > Dan, > > Diversion to ad hominem attacks does not serve the needs of this > discussion or of this group. > > If, as you say, there are APs out there today that have been certified > with code from the AP vendor that are now running code from a third > party (where the AP has not been recertified to run with that code), I > have to assume that you have personal knowledge of these > implementations. If you would, please provide a list (or at least one > example) that might be provided to the FCC as an example for them to > resolve the question directly. > > As I said, the code from the ART program used to certify our APs and the > parameters under which those APs are certified are running in the > shipping AP under our controller. I am not sure which part of that > statement is unclear. The fact that this code is further integrated > into a larger program that performs a number of functions that do not > impact the radio or its RF characteristics is irrelevant to the > certification. Even if such a larger program were to modify the RF > characteristics, it is possible, with limitations, for the manufacturer > of the AP to file a "permissive change" with the FCC to maintain its > certification. The only reason we might be able to do this is because > we are the manufacturer of the AP and have previously certified the AP. > An arbitrary third party is not allowed this freedom. > > Let me be clearer also about the example and question from my last > email. > > Let's say Company A is a developer of AP/WTP download modules. > Company B is an AC vendor that has licensed a module from Company A for > download through SLAPP. > Company C is the customer that has deployed the WLAN. > Company D is the manufacturer of the AP/WTP that has certified the > device running their own code. > > Your answer to my question below indicates to me that, if Cisco were > Company B and Trapeze were Company D, you believe that the Trapeze > certification of the AP/WTP would stand, regardless of what code Cisco > might download to the Trapeze AP/WTP. Am I correct in my interpretation > of your answer? > > If I am correct in interpreting your answer to the question, I disagree > with your answer. I would find it wildly unlikely that Trapeze would > stand up and claim that their AP/WTP hardware is fully compliant with > the regulations when that hardware is running any code but their own. I > am almost certain (though I don't speak for the company on this) that > Cisco would not agree that our AP would always operate within the > regulations when running any code than that supplied by Cisco. > > Perhaps you disagree? > > -Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 1:59 PM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification > > Bob, > > There's nothing cute about it. You're spreading FUD-- Fear (the FCC > will fine me!), Uncertainty (they don't recertify but I think we > might have to), and Doubt (he was wearing his "technical advisor hat" > and that must mean something). In fact, it's the opposite of cute; > it's a big, smelly, steaming pile o' FUD. > > If this issue is, as you say, as real as the fines the FCC will > levy then there is no issue. This is being done today and the FCC is > not fining anyone. > > I was not implying any slight of hand. The thing is, you market code > that did not operate the AP when it was certified and you do not > recertify when you install that code on the AP. And nor should you > because, > as I've been saying all along, it is not necessary to recertify an AP > simply because code that was not part of the original certification is > downloaded onto it. > > To answer your question, company D had to have certified their WTP > prior > to marketing it (they could've ran ART_V48_build_13_alpha to get their > certification, for instance). Since they are the company responsible for > certification they would supply information as may be requested > concerning > the operation of the device to the Commission or its representatives. > > Dan. > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 PDT you wrote > > Dan, > > > > The issue is not, as you put it, "just an unfortunate bunch of FUD". > > That is a cute attempt at diverting people from the issue. But > > ultimately, it is futile. The folks in the CAPWAP group can research > > and address this issue now, or surely those that implement and deploy > a > > CAPWAP protocol in the future will have to address it in the future. > > > > The requirement for certification of RF devices is not going to go > away. > > Let me quote a few bits from the FCC regulations for unlicensed > devices: > > > > Section 15.15 General technical requirements. > > (b) An intentional or unintentional radiator must be constructed such > > that the adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by or > > intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of the > > device in violation of the regulations. > > > > Section 15.29 Inspection by the Commission. > > (c) The party responsible for the compliance of any device subject to > > this Part shall promptly furnish to the Commission or its > > representatives such information as may be requested concerning the > > operation of the device, including a copy of any measurements made for > > obtaining an equipment authorization or demonstrating compliance with > > the regulations. > > > > Section 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement. > > (b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this Section and > in > > Section 15.23 of this > > Part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of this > > Part shall be certificated by the > > Commission pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of Part 2 of this > > Chapter prior to marketing. > > > > Who would you say is "the party responsible for the compliance" of a > > device that has been downloaded with third party code to operate the > > radio in an AP under the SLAPP proposal? If, for example, Company A > > were to distribute code written by Company B to Company C to download > > using SLAPP onto a WTP from Company D, who is responsible for ensuring > > that the device is operating within the regulations? In this > scenario, > > who is responsible for furnishing to the Commission a copy of the > > measurements made for obtaining equipment authorization? > > > > To address your other point, yes, we certify using the ART test > program. > > We also incorporate the identical parameters and code required to > > maintain that certification in our operational code for the APs. > There > > is no sleight of hand here, as it appears you are implying. > > > > The issue of certification when an unauthorized third party downloads > > code onto a device incorporating a radio is real, as will be the fines > > levied by the FCC upon that third party (or perhaps the third party's > > customer, or both) for operating an RF emitting device (an > "intentional > > radiator" in FCC terms) without the proper certifications. > > > > You can try telling everyone to "ignore the man behind the curtain" > and > > believe that you are living in Oz. But, in actuality, you are > dreaming. > > > > -Bob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:24 PM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification > > > > Bob, > > > > After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of > > Airespace's > > AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your > > operational > > AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received > > certification for your APs by running code on them that is not your's > > and > > is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is > > loaded > > onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them with > this > > new code load. > > > > So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is just > an > > unfortunate bunch of FUD. > > > > Dan. > > > > On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > > > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > > > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just > > because > > > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > > > > > > > > > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has everything > to > > > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual > operations > > > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the > network, > > > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poked > into > > > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for > ease > > of > > > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protocol > > that > > > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > > > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC to > > > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a > software > > > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal to > > > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without the > > > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other > regulatory > > > domains, as well. > > > > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory > certification > > > > > > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > > > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. > > > > > > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but > > that's > > > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore > > whether > > > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAPWAP. > > > > > > > Dan. > > > > > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP > about > > > the > > > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have > received > > > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that > he > > > was > > > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of the > > > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I would > > > like > > > > to discuss this further on the list. > > > > > > > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will > > require > > > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that > code > > > is > > > > not from the entity that received the original certification for > the > > > > device, will require a new certification of that device with the > > new, > > > > third party code. > > > > > > > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in > > North > > > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > > > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an > > identifying > > > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third party > > WTP > > > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now > > also > > > be > > > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > > > > > > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code ports > > for > > > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon > > > vendors. > > > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for every > > WTP > > > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain > regulatory > > > > certification with every AC vendor. > > > > > > > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP > > vendors. > > > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each > regulatory > > > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several > > times > > > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certification > > for > > > an > > > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is > supports. > > > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is > multiplied > > by > > > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > > > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in > half. > > > It > > > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > > > > > > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > > > sufficient > > > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be > > interoperable. > > > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business > relationships > > > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and > > model > > > > numbers. > > > > > > > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to > entry > > > for > > > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated > > with > > > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large > > number > > > of > > > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost > > also > > > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the > early > > > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > > > > > > > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for > > CAPWAP > > > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and > > widely > > > > interoperable products. > > > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > > > Bob O'Hara > > > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > > > > > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From aves@didamail.com Fri Aug 26 08:51:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E8dgW-0004BK-9Q; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:51:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16473; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [12.147.132.6] (helo=dyn12.147.132.6.ctwa.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E8dhE-0005ET-8R; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:52:37 -0400 Received: from fiance.ixejbi.sideline.venusian.com by phytoplankton.carrel.flub.com (lchupfix) with SMTP id 2B29E820217 for ; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:27:54 +0300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:28:54 +0500 From: "Aurelia Pham" To: Subject: Save hundreds every month on low rates X-Mailer: KYX CP/M FNORD 5602 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. You have been selected for our lowest rate in years... You could get over $460,000 for as little as $350 a month! Ba(d credit, Bank*ruptcy? Doesn't matter, low rates are fixed no matter what! To get a free, no obli,gation consultation click below: http://www.lakdj9.info/i/LzMvaW5kZXgvYXJuL2dqejNzajI5dHd1 Best Regards, Alan Irwin to be remov(ed: http://www.lakdj9.info this process takes one week, so please be patient. we do our best to take your email/s off but you have to fill out a rem/ove or else you will continue to recieve email/s. From capwap-admin@frascone.com Fri Aug 26 14:41:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E8j8h-0004fl-Kn for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:41:20 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06066 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7CF20387; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E0020319; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:41:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E299B20319 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homebrew.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC9B1FC28 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.trpz.com [127.0.0.1]) by homebrew.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7QIY0W4009064; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508261834.j7QIY0W4009064@homebrew.trpz.com> To: "Darren Loher" Cc: pcalhoun@cisco.com, capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:49:12 PDT." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <9062.1125081240.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:34:00 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) I am not aware of any IPR related to SLAPP. I have a question about LWAPP's disclosure though. Pat, it says, "The covenant shall not apply to (and Airspace shall be free to assert the above identified claims against) any party that asserts a patent it owns or controls against Airespace, either directly or indirectly, based on implementation or operation of a system utilizing the LWAPP protocol." Does that mean the patent being asserted against Airespace must be against some part of the LWAPP protocol or just for something that's in a system that also happens to utilize LWAPP? Also, does your new employer who I imagine purchased Airespace's IPR also agree with this statement? Dan. On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:49:12 PDT you wrote > > I've asked similar questions. To my knowledge, the only intellectual > property disclosure that has been filed in the CAPWAP working group is > regarding LWAPP. You can read it at: > > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamoby-lwapp.txt > > I have not seen any disclosure from the authors of CTP, WiCoP or SLAPP. > > -Darren > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From mammucari@emailaccount.com Mon Aug 29 09:10:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1E9jPG-0006VK-VA; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:10:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA07461; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gsv95-1-82-233-14-193.fbx.proxad.net ([82.233.14.193]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E9jQa-0007OZ-Dg; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:11:58 -0400 Received: (from apache@localhost) by 132.151.6.1 (8.11.9/8.11.7) id j0EVA3L40972; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:06:45 -0800 Message-Id: <31612934015194.55486998@lumpur> X-NOD32Result: clean X-Habeas-SWE-1: curfew into susceptance X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly aniline X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). 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Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:18:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12417; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ammon.uib.es ([130.206.132.129]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E9kUg-00017T-Ae; Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:20:15 -0400 Received: from 3x7LJx ([10.40.5.1]) by 132.151.6.1 with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.853); Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:15:06 -0800 Message-Id: <62875643686073.92575630@stile> X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message X-Symantec-Anti-Spam: PASS Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:15:06 -0800 To: bmwg-admin@ietf.org Cc: bmwg-archive@ietf.org, bofchairs@ietf.org, bounces-ietf@ietf.org, bpana@ietf.org, brenton.daniels@ietf.org, bridge-mib@ietf.org, bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org, business@ietf.org, calsch@ietf.org, cancer@ietf.org, capwap-archive@ietf.org, ccips@ietf.org, cclark@ietf.org, cdi-archive@ietf.org, cdir-admin@ietf.org From: "Leslie Elmore" Subject: Approved low mortage rate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_59899004==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 --=====================_59899004==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_09995012==.ALT" --=====================_09995012==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable may alternate some fuzz it granular may corrigendum the sweepstake the blown it's breton in brownie a kin try starve not freight may vetch see bantu but light , bravado or anaerobic be revving , accountant it behavioral. --=====================_09995012==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3D""

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No, so its here
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[127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9DD20480; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:31:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C027320480 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:30:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A3B2044F for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Aug 2005 07:30:21 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,154,1122879600"; d="scan'208"; a="657402498:sNHT32046576" Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j7UETe0d003192; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.85]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:30:16 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Message-ID: <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A29562CB@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals Thread-Index: AcWqbcji4cmlZlPaTa+R/dZCAuCphQDAS1FA From: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" To: "Dan Harkins" , "Darren Loher" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2005 14:30:16.0463 (UTC) FILETIME=[572031F0:01C5AD6F] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:30:15 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The royalty free license would extend only to those who do not assert against the systems that utilize LWAPP whether or not their assertions relate to LWAPP itself. The prior IPR statement carries on through Cisco. Pat Calhoun CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit Cisco Systems =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com=20 > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Dan Harkins > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 11:34 AM > To: Darren Loher > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for=20 > Submitted CAPWAP Proposals=20 >=20 > I am not aware of any IPR related to SLAPP. I have a=20 > question about LWAPP's disclosure though. >=20 > Pat, it says,=20 >=20 > "The covenant shall not apply to (and Airspace shall be free > to assert the above identified claims against) any party that > asserts a patent it owns or controls against Airespace, either > directly or indirectly, based on implementation or operation of > a system utilizing the LWAPP protocol." >=20 > Does that mean the patent being asserted against Airespace=20 > must be against some part of the LWAPP protocol or just for=20 > something that's in a system that also happens to utilize LWAPP? >=20 > Also, does your new employer who I imagine purchased=20 > Airespace's IPR also agree with this statement? >=20 > Dan. >=20 > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:49:12 PDT you wrote > >=20 > > I've asked similar questions. To my knowledge, the only=20 > intellectual=20 > > property disclosure that has been filed in the CAPWAP=20 > working group is=20 > > regarding LWAPP. You can read it at: > >=20 > >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamoby-lwapp > > .txt > >=20 > > I have not seen any disclosure from the authors of CTP,=20 > WiCoP or SLAPP. > >=20 > > -Darren > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 30 12:09:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EA8fo-0002Xv-SK for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:09:21 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20866 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1CA20480; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB05C204CA; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:09:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C73D2048A for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homebrew.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50AD220480 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.trpz.com [127.0.0.1]) by homebrew.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7UG1olb023454; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508301601.j7UG1olb023454@homebrew.trpz.com> To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" Cc: "Darren Loher" , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:30:15 PDT." <4FF84B0BC277FF45AA27FE969DD956A29562CB@xmb-sjc-235.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <23452.1125417710.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:01:50 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Pat, If LWAPP were to become a draft standard it sounds like Cisco would be able to use other companies IPR on things (like accurate location determination or rogue detection or ...) without license and if that company tried to stop Cisco then Cisco would bring out the LWAPP club. Then they either swap licenses, the company gets no benefit from their IPR, or the unfortunate company pays to implement a standard. So it looks like if everybody has to implement LWAPP because it was the draft standard then they'd have to give up some part of their patent portfolio to Cisco if they try to assert any of it. I don't think that sounds like a very good deal. Perhaps you could explain _exactly_ what parts of LWAPP you think are covered by your pending applications so that we make sure none of that is in the final CAPWAP spec. Dan. On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:30:15 PDT you wrote > The royalty free license would extend only to those who do not assert > against the systems that utilize LWAPP whether or not their assertions > relate to LWAPP itself. The prior IPR statement carries on through > Cisco. > > Pat Calhoun > CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > Cisco Systems > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Dan Harkins > > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 11:34 AM > > To: Darren Loher > > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for > > Submitted CAPWAP Proposals > > > > I am not aware of any IPR related to SLAPP. I have a > > question about LWAPP's disclosure though. > > > > Pat, it says, > > > > "The covenant shall not apply to (and Airspace shall be free > > to assert the above identified claims against) any party that > > asserts a patent it owns or controls against Airespace, either > > directly or indirectly, based on implementation or operation of > > a system utilizing the LWAPP protocol." > > > > Does that mean the patent being asserted against Airespace > > must be against some part of the LWAPP protocol or just for > > something that's in a system that also happens to utilize LWAPP? > > > > Also, does your new employer who I imagine purchased > > Airespace's IPR also agree with this statement? > > > > Dan. > > > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:49:12 PDT you wrote > > > > > > I've asked similar questions. To my knowledge, the only > > intellectual > > > property disclosure that has been filed in the CAPWAP > > working group is > > > regarding LWAPP. You can read it at: > > > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamoby-lwapp > > > .txt > > > > > > I have not seen any disclosure from the authors of CTP, > > WiCoP or SLAPP. > > > > > > -Darren > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 30 12:29:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EA8z6-0001Jh-LL for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:29:23 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21884 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618AD204EA; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBCC2048A; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:29:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E76C12048A for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C1920480 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <056701c5ad7f$e18663e0$196115ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> From: "James Kempf" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Dan Harkins" Cc: "Darren Loher" , References: <200508301601.j7UG1olb023454@homebrew.trpz.com> Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:28:40 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, I think this is the same IPR release that IBM made for Photuris in RFC 1822, and it has been used by other companies since then. Is the case you've outlined below one that actually occured with IKE, or is it hypothetical? jak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Harkins" To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" Cc: "Darren Loher" ; Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals > Pat, > > If LWAPP were to become a draft standard it sounds like Cisco would > be able to use other companies IPR on things (like accurate location > determination or rogue detection or ...) without license and if that > company tried to stop Cisco then Cisco would bring out the LWAPP club. > Then they either swap licenses, the company gets no benefit from > their IPR, or the unfortunate company pays to implement a standard. > > So it looks like if everybody has to implement LWAPP because it was > the draft standard then they'd have to give up some part of their patent > portfolio to Cisco if they try to assert any of it. I don't think that > sounds like a very good deal. > > Perhaps you could explain _exactly_ what parts of LWAPP you think > are covered by your pending applications so that we make sure none of > that is in the final CAPWAP spec. > > Dan. > > > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:30:15 PDT you wrote >> The royalty free license would extend only to those who do not assert >> against the systems that utilize LWAPP whether or not their assertions >> relate to LWAPP itself. The prior IPR statement carries on through >> Cisco. >> >> Pat Calhoun >> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit >> Cisco Systems >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com >> > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Dan Harkins >> > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 11:34 AM >> > To: Darren Loher >> > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com >> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for >> > Submitted CAPWAP Proposals >> > >> > I am not aware of any IPR related to SLAPP. I have a >> > question about LWAPP's disclosure though. >> > >> > Pat, it says, >> > >> > "The covenant shall not apply to (and Airspace shall be free >> > to assert the above identified claims against) any party that >> > asserts a patent it owns or controls against Airespace, either >> > directly or indirectly, based on implementation or operation of >> > a system utilizing the LWAPP protocol." >> > >> > Does that mean the patent being asserted against Airespace >> > must be against some part of the LWAPP protocol or just for >> > something that's in a system that also happens to utilize LWAPP? >> > >> > Also, does your new employer who I imagine purchased >> > Airespace's IPR also agree with this statement? >> > >> > Dan. >> > >> > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:49:12 PDT you wrote >> > > >> > > I've asked similar questions. To my knowledge, the only >> > intellectual >> > > property disclosure that has been filed in the CAPWAP >> > working group is >> > > regarding LWAPP. You can read it at: >> > > >> > > >> > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamoby-lwapp >> > > .txt >> > > >> > > I have not seen any disclosure from the authors of CTP, >> > WiCoP or SLAPP. >> > > >> > > -Darren >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Capwap mailing list >> > Capwap@frascone.com >> > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 30 13:27:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EA9tD-0001aw-OQ for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:27:17 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25135 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAFE204EA; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5BB2048A; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:27:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7877F2048A for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homebrew.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BAA20480 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.trpz.com [127.0.0.1]) by homebrew.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7UHJkGb023735; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508301719.j7UHJkGb023735@homebrew.trpz.com> To: "James Kempf" Cc: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" , "Darren Loher" , capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP Proposals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:28:40 PDT." <056701c5ad7f$e18663e0$196115ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <23733.1125422386.1@trpz.com> From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:19:46 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) James, It's hypothetical. I don't know of any IPR claims on RFC2409. I also suffer from memory loss :-) so my recollection may be wrong but I don't remember IBM's patent as being a real sticking point on whether to go with Photuris, IKE or SKIP. Also, RFC1822 says that the other company must assert a claim "against IBM for IBM's implementation of and operation in compliance with Photuris or any derivative, as defined above." So it's against the operation of Photuris or against a way to remain compliant with Photuris. It's not against any part of a system that also just so happens to implement Photuris, or a Photuris derivative. For instance, let's say you have some wiz-bang patented way to compress TCP and you also implemented Photuris, they're both in the stack your company developed and is used in some system you sell. Does that mean that you will lose rights to use Photuris if you assert your patent against IBM for stealing your TCP compression scheme? I don't think so; that's not how I'm reading it. But the LWAPP one is different. I you had some wiz-bang patented way to do rogue detection and you also implemented LWAPP (because it's part of the standard) then you would lose your rights to use LWAPP if you asserted a claim against Cisco for stealing your rogue detection scheme. Pat even said that it applies "whether or not the assertions relate to LWAPP itself." RFC1822 also lists the patent so people could go see exactly what part of Photuris falls under IBM's IPR. The LWAPP statement just says that "at least one claim" in 3 pending applications is "believed" to be "essential to implement LWAPP" as defined in an expired Internet Draft. Pat's statement sounds really bad. The largest networking company in the world would get royalty-free licenses to use other companies' intellectual property just so those companies can implement an IETF standard. And all the smaller companies don't necessarily get royalty-free licenses for each other's intellectual property either, just Cisco. Dan. On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:28:40 PDT you wrote > Dan, > > I think this is the same IPR release that IBM made for Photuris in RFC 1822, > and it has been used by other companies since then. Is the case you've > outlined below one that actually occured with IKE, or is it hypothetical? > > jak > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Harkins" > To: "Pat Calhoun (pacalhou)" > Cc: "Darren Loher" ; > Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:01 AM > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for Submitted CAPWAP > Proposals > > > > Pat, > > > > If LWAPP were to become a draft standard it sounds like Cisco would > > be able to use other companies IPR on things (like accurate location > > determination or rogue detection or ...) without license and if that > > company tried to stop Cisco then Cisco would bring out the LWAPP club. > > Then they either swap licenses, the company gets no benefit from > > their IPR, or the unfortunate company pays to implement a standard. > > > > So it looks like if everybody has to implement LWAPP because it was > > the draft standard then they'd have to give up some part of their patent > > portfolio to Cisco if they try to assert any of it. I don't think that > > sounds like a very good deal. > > > > Perhaps you could explain _exactly_ what parts of LWAPP you think > > are covered by your pending applications so that we make sure none of > > that is in the final CAPWAP spec. > > > > Dan. > > > > > > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:30:15 PDT you wrote > >> The royalty free license would extend only to those who do not assert > >> against the systems that utilize LWAPP whether or not their assertions > >> relate to LWAPP itself. The prior IPR statement carries on through > >> Cisco. > >> > >> Pat Calhoun > >> CTO, Wireless Networking Business Unit > >> Cisco Systems > >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: capwap-admin@frascone.com > >> > [mailto:capwap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Dan Harkins > >> > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 11:34 AM > >> > To: Darren Loher > >> > Cc: Pat Calhoun (pacalhou); capwap@frascone.com > >> > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Exisiting Implementation(s) for > >> > Submitted CAPWAP Proposals > >> > > >> > I am not aware of any IPR related to SLAPP. I have a > >> > question about LWAPP's disclosure though. > >> > > >> > Pat, it says, > >> > > >> > "The covenant shall not apply to (and Airspace shall be free > >> > to assert the above identified claims against) any party that > >> > asserts a patent it owns or controls against Airespace, either > >> > directly or indirectly, based on implementation or operation of > >> > a system utilizing the LWAPP protocol." > >> > > >> > Does that mean the patent being asserted against Airespace > >> > must be against some part of the LWAPP protocol or just for > >> > something that's in a system that also happens to utilize LWAPP? > >> > > >> > Also, does your new employer who I imagine purchased > >> > Airespace's IPR also agree with this statement? > >> > > >> > Dan. > >> > > >> > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:49:12 PDT you wrote > >> > > > >> > > I've asked similar questions. To my knowledge, the only > >> > intellectual > >> > > property disclosure that has been filed in the CAPWAP > >> > working group is > >> > > regarding LWAPP. You can read it at: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/airespace-ipr-draft-calhoun-seamoby-lwapp > >> > > .txt > >> > > > >> > > I have not seen any disclosure from the authors of CTP, > >> > WiCoP or SLAPP. > >> > > > >> > > -Darren > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Capwap mailing list > >> > Capwap@frascone.com > >> > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Tue Aug 30 16:55:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EAD8X-0000PB-N9 for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:55:19 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09274 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792C7204F2; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C26204D0; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:55:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B9F204D0 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:54:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226C2204B3 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Aug 2005 13:54:48 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,154,1122879600"; d="scan'208"; a="337258874:sNHT49565968" Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j7UKsJQi013652 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:54:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC806E3F@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWo1rbeSLaXo/bsS3y5LiTN/SkDvgCgD3+g From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2005 20:54:44.0539 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CC540B0:01C5ADA5] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:54:40 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, Your example of loading a different OS onto a PC (which is an = unintentional radiator in FCC terms) has little to do with the issue of = loading code that has control of radio parameters, such as transmit = power, frequency of operation, and spectral shape of the transmitted = waveform, onto an AP/WTP (which the FCC classes as an intentional = radiator). The OS or other programs running on a PC will have little = influence over the RF emissions of that device. Sure, certain code = loops can be created to sing a song on a nearby radio. But, this is = still within the requirements under which the PC was originally = certified. Downloading code to an AP/WTP that, for example, increases = the power output on a channel adjacent to the edge of a band, can cause = the device to emit a signal that is above that allowed by its = certification, causing illegal interference in the adjacent band. The difference is very important. It is also very important that this = discussion continue in this forum, as there are very few, if any IETF = documents that directly affect whether a device is legal to operate = under governmental emissions regulations. This might be the first time = that the IETF has had to consider this issue. I believe that many here = do not yet understand the importance of the issue. But, back to our discussion. You say that it is possible to download code to an AP/WTP that "would = retain its certification". This is where there is a fundamental point = on which we disagree. I do agree with you that it is possible to = download code from a third party onto an AP that would continue to have = the AP operate in a compliant manner. But, this is entirely different = from that same AP with the third party code running on it maintaining = its certification. The certification "belongs" to the manufacturer of the device that = obtained it. It is not transferable or modifiable by anyone else, = without express authorization of the manufacturer. Downloading code = that causes access to the registers of a chip, for example, that has = control of the RF transmission characteristics of the certified device = is modifying the device. Here are additional citations from the regulations governing the = certification of radio frequency equipment in the United States, = supporting this position. 47CFR2.909 states the following: The following parties are responsible for the compliance of radio = frequency equipment with the applicable standards: (a) In the case of equipment which requires the issuance by the = Commission of a grant of equipment authorization, the party to whom that = grant of authorization is issued (the grantee) If the radio frequency = equipment is modified by any party other than the grantee and that party = is not working under the authorization of the grantee pursuant to =A7 = 2.929(b), the party performing the modification is responsible for = compliance of the product with the applicable administrative and = technical provisions in this chapter. 47CFR2.909 (d) states the following: (d) If, because of modifications performed subsequent to authorization, = a new party becomes responsible for ensuring that a product complies = with the technical standards and the new party does not obtain a new = equipment authorization, the equipment shall be labelled, following the = specifications in =A7 2.925(d), with the following: ''This product has = been modified by [insert name, address and telephone number of the party = performing the modifications].'' 47CFR2.929 states this, as well: =A7 2.929 Nonassignability of an equipment authorization. (a) An equipment authorization issued by the Commission may not be = assigned, exchanged or in any other way transferred to a second party. So, for the example well below in this thread, either the third party = WTP code developer, the AC vendor that performs the unauthorized (by the = original equipment manufacturer) download to the WTP, or possibly the = customer that entered the command to perform the download is now the = party responsible for the certification/authorization of the WTP, not = the original manufacturer. At a minimum, 47CFR2.909 (d) will require = someone to physically access each modified WTP to affix a sticker. Even = without actually certifying the modified WTP, the device is now the = responsibility of someone other than the original manufacturer to ensure = that it meets the regulatory requirements. Because our discussion touched on the possibility that the radio portion = of a modified WTP might be "identical" or use "identical code" to that = used by the original manufacturer of the WTP, the following definition = is provided by the FCC 47CFR2.908: 2.908 Identical defined. As used in this subpart, the term identical means identical within the = variation that can be expected to arise as a result of quantity = production techniques. This definition does not encompass a third party changing the code = operating the device. I would be very interested to understand how these regulatory = requirements can be integrated with your positions, below. -Bob =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:00 AM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 Bob, You're absolutely right. Diversion to ad hominem attacks would not serve the needs of this group. And it's great that no one has resorted to ad hominem attacks! In your company A-D example you have moved the goal posts. Before you had stated that merely running someone else's code on an AP=20 required recertification. Now you're asking whether an AP can remain certified "regardless of what code [company B] might download to [Company D's] WTP". Well that's a different question altogether. I believe it would be possible to download an image onto an AP that could make it uncompliant (it could, for example, make the AP broadcast outside legal limits) and it wouldn't matter whether the company that created the downloaded image is the same as the company that certified the AP in the same place. I also believe that it is possible for a company to download an image onto another company's AP and that AP would retain it's certification.=20 So to answer your quesiton, that depends on what kind of image Cisco downloaded on a Trapeze AP. You could do it right or you could do it wrong. But the act of downloading the image does not void the certification of the AP as you have been asserting here all along. My laptop is FCC certified. I don't know how it got certified. I do know that it was running Windows XP when I pulled it out of the box. I hate Windows XP and immediately installled FreeBSD on it. I don't believe my laptop is now in violation of FCC regulations nor do I feel it is necessary to get a different sticker on the bottom of my laptop. I am also unaware of the FCC going after anyone who has installed an operating system on a computer that was different than one it was shipped with.=20 You have been unable to demonstrate how image download voids an AP's certification and the snippets of FCC regulations you supplied did not say anything on that subject. Similarly I have been unable to demonstrate that image download will not void an AP's certification. So to answer your last question, yes, we disagree. Unless you can come up with an FCC ruling that refers to the issue at hand and unambiguously states it voids an AP's certification then I think we should just let this thread die a well-deserved death right here. Dan. On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:28 PDT you wrote > Dan, >=20 > Diversion to ad hominem attacks does not serve the needs of this > discussion or of this group. =20 >=20 > If, as you say, there are APs out there today that have been certified > with code from the AP vendor that are now running code from a third > party (where the AP has not been recertified to run with that code), I > have to assume that you have personal knowledge of these > implementations. If you would, please provide a list (or at least one > example) that might be provided to the FCC as an example for them to > resolve the question directly. >=20 > As I said, the code from the ART program used to certify our APs and = the > parameters under which those APs are certified are running in the > shipping AP under our controller. I am not sure which part of that > statement is unclear. The fact that this code is further integrated > into a larger program that performs a number of functions that do not > impact the radio or its RF characteristics is irrelevant to the > certification. Even if such a larger program were to modify the RF > characteristics, it is possible, with limitations, for the = manufacturer > of the AP to file a "permissive change" with the FCC to maintain its > certification. The only reason we might be able to do this is because > we are the manufacturer of the AP and have previously certified the = AP. > An arbitrary third party is not allowed this freedom. >=20 > Let me be clearer also about the example and question from my last > email. >=20 > Let's say Company A is a developer of AP/WTP download modules. > Company B is an AC vendor that has licensed a module from Company A = for > download through SLAPP. > Company C is the customer that has deployed the WLAN. > Company D is the manufacturer of the AP/WTP that has certified the > device running their own code. >=20 > Your answer to my question below indicates to me that, if Cisco were > Company B and Trapeze were Company D, you believe that the Trapeze > certification of the AP/WTP would stand, regardless of what code Cisco > might download to the Trapeze AP/WTP. Am I correct in my = interpretation > of your answer? >=20 > If I am correct in interpreting your answer to the question, I = disagree > with your answer. I would find it wildly unlikely that Trapeze would > stand up and claim that their AP/WTP hardware is fully compliant with > the regulations when that hardware is running any code but their own. = I > am almost certain (though I don't speak for the company on this) that > Cisco would not agree that our AP would always operate within the > regulations when running any code than that supplied by Cisco. >=20 > Perhaps you disagree? >=20 > -Bob > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 1:59 PM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 >=20 > Bob, >=20 > There's nothing cute about it. You're spreading FUD-- Fear (the FCC > will fine me!), Uncertainty (they don't recertify but I think we > might have to), and Doubt (he was wearing his "technical advisor hat" > and that must mean something). In fact, it's the opposite of cute; > it's a big, smelly, steaming pile o' FUD. >=20 > If this issue is, as you say, as real as the fines the FCC will > levy then there is no issue. This is being done today and the FCC is > not fining anyone. >=20 > I was not implying any slight of hand. The thing is, you market code > that did not operate the AP when it was certified and you do not > recertify when you install that code on the AP. And nor should you > because, > as I've been saying all along, it is not necessary to recertify an AP > simply because code that was not part of the original certification is > downloaded onto it. >=20 > To answer your question, company D had to have certified their WTP > prior > to marketing it (they could've ran ART_V48_build_13_alpha to get their > certification, for instance). Since they are the company responsible = for > certification they would supply information as may be requested > concerning > the operation of the device to the Commission or its representatives. >=20 > Dan. >=20 > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 PDT you wrote > > Dan, > >=20 > > The issue is not, as you put it, "just an unfortunate bunch of FUD". > > That is a cute attempt at diverting people from the issue. But > > ultimately, it is futile. The folks in the CAPWAP group can = research > > and address this issue now, or surely those that implement and = deploy > a > > CAPWAP protocol in the future will have to address it in the future. = =20 > >=20 > > The requirement for certification of RF devices is not going to go > away. > > Let me quote a few bits from the FCC regulations for unlicensed > devices: > >=20 > > Section 15.15 General technical requirements. > > (b) An intentional or unintentional radiator must be constructed = such > > that the adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by or > > intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of = the > > device in violation of the regulations. > >=20 > > Section 15.29 Inspection by the Commission. > > (c) The party responsible for the compliance of any device subject = to > > this Part shall promptly furnish to the Commission or its > > representatives such information as may be requested concerning the > > operation of the device, including a copy of any measurements made = for > > obtaining an equipment authorization or demonstrating compliance = with > > the regulations. > >=20 > > Section 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement. > > (b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this Section = and > in > > Section 15.23 of this > > Part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of = this > > Part shall be certificated by the > > Commission pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of Part 2 of this > > Chapter prior to marketing. > >=20 > > Who would you say is "the party responsible for the compliance" of a > > device that has been downloaded with third party code to operate the > > radio in an AP under the SLAPP proposal? If, for example, Company A > > were to distribute code written by Company B to Company C to = download > > using SLAPP onto a WTP from Company D, who is responsible for = ensuring > > that the device is operating within the regulations? In this > scenario, > > who is responsible for furnishing to the Commission a copy of the > > measurements made for obtaining equipment authorization? > >=20 > > To address your other point, yes, we certify using the ART test > program. > > We also incorporate the identical parameters and code required to > > maintain that certification in our operational code for the APs. > There > > is no sleight of hand here, as it appears you are implying. > >=20 > > The issue of certification when an unauthorized third party = downloads > > code onto a device incorporating a radio is real, as will be the = fines > > levied by the FCC upon that third party (or perhaps the third = party's > > customer, or both) for operating an RF emitting device (an > "intentional > > radiator" in FCC terms) without the proper certifications. > >=20 > > You can try telling everyone to "ignore the man behind the curtain" > and > > believe that you are living in Oz. But, in actuality, you are > dreaming. > >=20 > > -Bob > > =20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:24 PM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory = certification=20 > >=20 > > Bob, > >=20 > > After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of > > Airespace's > > AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your > > operational > > AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received > > certification for your APs by running code on them that is not = your's > > and > > is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is > > loaded > > onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them with > this > > new code load. > >=20 > > So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is just > an > > unfortunate bunch of FUD. > >=20 > > Dan. > >=20 > > On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > > > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > > > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just > > because > > > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > > > =20 > > >=20 > > > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has = everything > to > > > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual > operations > > > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the > network, > > > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poked > into > > > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for > ease > > of > > > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protocol > > that > > > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > > > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC = to > > > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a > software > > > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal to > > > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without the > > > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other > regulatory > > > domains, as well. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > -Bob > > > =20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory > certification=20 > > >=20 > > > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > > > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. > > >=20 > > > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but > > that's > > > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore > > whether > > > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with = CAPWAP. >=20 > > >=20 > > > Dan. > > >=20 > > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP > about > > > the > > > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have > received > > > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that > he > > > was > > > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of = the > > > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I = would > > > like > > > > to discuss this further on the list. =20 > > > >=20 > > > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will > > require > > > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that > code > > > is > > > > not from the entity that received the original certification for > the > > > > device, will require a new certification of that device with the > > new, > > > > third party code. > > > >=20 > > > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in > > North > > > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > > > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an > > identifying > > > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third = party > > WTP > > > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now > > also > > > be > > > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > > >=20 > > > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code = ports > > for > > > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon > > > vendors. > > > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for = every > > WTP > > > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain > regulatory > > > > certification with every AC vendor. > > > >=20 > > > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP > > vendors. > > > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each > regulatory > > > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several > > times > > > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory = certification > > for > > > an > > > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is > supports. > > > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is > multiplied > > by > > > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > > > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in > half. > > > It > > > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > > >=20 > > > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > > > sufficient > > > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be > > interoperable. > > > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business > relationships > > > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and > > model > > > > numbers. > > > >=20 > > > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to > entry > > > for > > > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated > > with > > > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large > > number > > > of > > > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost > > also > > > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the > early > > > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > > > >=20 > > > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for > > CAPWAP > > > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and > > widely > > > > interoperable products. > > > >=20 > > > > -Bob > > > >=20 > > > > Bob O'Hara > > > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > > >=20 > > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > > =20 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From antico@fadmail.com Tue Aug 30 21:41:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EAHbf-0004TY-G6; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:41:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA22584; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host161-6.pool8257.interbusiness.it ([82.57.6.161]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EAHdF-0004Cz-UW; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:43:22 -0400 Received: (from apache@localhost) by 132.151.6.1 (8.11.0/8.11.5) id j3ZBX0L59520; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:37:41 -0800 Message-Id: <11884270132774.41835043@evade> X-NOD32Result: clean X-Habeas-SWE-1: salvage into compendia X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly populate X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:37:41 -0800 To: bmmusic@ietf.org From: "Lucille Costello" Subject: Notification: We offer new low rates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_51569133==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 --=====================_51569133==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19546242==.ALT" --=====================_19546242==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on cleanup may semester but nest a advisor the compose it arcana and eavesdropper it's burro see beverage be daffy be sylvan not copernican in devout some demerit ! cape in spatterdock may cb in product the aegean. --=====================_19546242==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3D""

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Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:47:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25845; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 61-64-236-239-adsl-zha.static.so-net.net.tw ([61.64.236.239]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EAIet-0005vj-PW; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:49:06 -0400 Received: (from apache@localhost) by 132.151.6.1 (8.11.9/8.11.0) id j3NEO5L87562; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:47:07 -0800 Message-Id: <00533637576294.05471047@attest> X-NOD32Result: clean X-Habeas-SWE-1: cacao into covenant X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly trepidation X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). 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Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:47:07 -0800 To: bmmusic@ietf.org, bmwg@ietf.org, bmwg-admin@ietf.org, bmwg-archive@ietf.org, bofchairs@ietf.org, bounces-ietf@ietf.org, bpana@ietf.org, brenton.daniels@ietf.org, bridge-mib@ietf.org, bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org, business@ietf.org, calsch@ietf.org, cancer@ietf.org, capwap-archive@ietf.org, ccips@ietf.org, cclark@ietf.org, cdi-archive@ietf.org, cdir-admin@ietf.org, cfrg@ietf.org, cfrg-admin@ietf.org From: "Gregory Huggins" Subject: Catch the new low rates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_96743706==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 --=====================_96743706==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_69416379==.ALT" --=====================_69416379==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable some invite see checklist see slid or tyrannicide and donate try grim ! ethane try adrenal , wendy or gauleiter see burn be cassandra may spinach the numerous it casanova on stepmother , blowback not capella but pinxter. --=====================_69416379==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3D""

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Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:20:18 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA26937 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3FC2027E; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE3F1FE41; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:20:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D371FE41 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homebrew.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46D11FE11 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.trpz.com [127.0.0.1]) by homebrew.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7V3Csdh025956; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508310312.j7V3Csdh025956@homebrew.trpz.com> To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:54:40 PDT." <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC806E3F@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-unknown" Content-ID: <25954.1125457974.1@trpz.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:12:54 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, I'll get back to you on the additional regulatory citations you've added-- they are numerous and require some reading and analysis-- but I have an additional couple questions for you. = After I loaded freebsd on my laptop I got a driver to control a Cisco Aironet card. It was not written by a Cisco employee. I can modify this driver to my heart's content and continue to use my modified driver to control that card. Is it your contention that a Cisco Aironet card plugged into my laptop loses its FCC certification? If so, is it also your contention that the FCC will fine anyone who plugs a Cisco Aironet card into a = computer running freebsd with the an(4) driver? Dan. On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:54:40 PDT you wrote > Dan, > = > Your example of loading a different OS onto a PC (which is an unintentio= nal r >adiator in FCC terms) has little to do with the issue of loading code tha= t has > control of radio parameters, such as transmit power, frequency of operat= ion, = >and spectral shape of the transmitted waveform, onto an AP/WTP (which the= FCC = >classes as an intentional radiator). The OS or other programs running on= a PC > will have little influence over the RF emissions of that device. Sure, = certa >in code loops can be created to sing a song on a nearby radio. But, this= is s >till within the requirements under which the PC was originally certified.= Dow >nloading code to an AP/WTP that, for example, increases the power output = on a = >channel adjacent to the edge of a band, can cause the device to emit a si= gnal = >that is above that allowed by its certification, causing illegal interfer= ence = >in the adjacent band. > = > The difference is very important. It is also very important that this d= iscus >sion continue in this forum, as there are very few, if any IETF documents= that > directly affect whether a device is legal to operate under governmental = emiss >ions regulations. This might be the first time that the IETF has had to = consi >der this issue. I believe that many here do not yet understand the impor= tance > of the issue. > = > But, back to our discussion. > = > You say that it is possible to download code to an AP/WTP that "would re= tain = >its certification". This is where there is a fundamental point on which = we di >sagree. I do agree with you that it is possible to download code from a = third > party onto an AP that would continue to have the AP operate in a complia= nt ma >nner. But, this is entirely different from that same AP with the third p= arty = >code running on it maintaining its certification. > = > The certification "belongs" to the manufacturer of the device that obtai= ned i >t. It is not transferable or modifiable by anyone else, without express = autho >rization of the manufacturer. Downloading code that causes access to the= regi >sters of a chip, for example, that has control of the RF transmission cha= racte >ristics of the certified device is modifying the device. > = > Here are additional citations from the regulations governing the certifi= catio >n of radio frequency equipment in the United States, supporting this posi= tion. > = > 47CFR2.909 states the following: > = > The following parties are responsible for the compliance of radio freque= ncy e >quipment with the applicable standards: > (a) In the case of equipment which requires the issuance by the Commissi= on of > a grant of equipment authorization, the party to whom that grant of auth= oriza >tion is issued (the grantee) If the radio frequency equipment is modified= by a >ny party other than the grantee and that party is not working under the a= uthor >ization of the grantee pursuant to =A7 2.929(b), the party performing the= modific >ation is responsible for compliance of the product with the applicable ad= minis >trative and technical provisions in this chapter. > = > 47CFR2.909 (d) states the following: > (d) If, because of modifications performed subsequent to authorization, = a new > party becomes responsible for ensuring that a product complies with the = techn >ical standards and the new party does not obtain a new equipment authoriz= ation >, the equipment shall be labelled, following the specifications in =A7 2.= 925(d), = >with the following: ''This product has been modified by [insert name, add= ress = >and telephone number of the party performing the modifications].'' > = > 47CFR2.929 states this, as well: > =A7 2.929 Nonassignability of an equipment authorization. > (a) An equipment authorization issued by the Commission may not be assig= ned, = >exchanged or in any other way transferred to a second party. > = > So, for the example well below in this thread, either the third party WT= P cod >e developer, the AC vendor that performs the unauthorized (by the origina= l equ >ipment manufacturer) download to the WTP, or possibly the customer that e= ntere >d the command to perform the download is now the party responsible for th= e cer >tification/authorization of the WTP, not the original manufacturer. At = a min >imum, 47CFR2.909 (d) will require someone to physically access each modif= ied W >TP to affix a sticker. Even without actually certifying the modified WTP= , the > device is now the responsibility of someone other than the original manu= factu >rer to ensure that it meets the regulatory requirements. > = > Because our discussion touched on the possibility that the radio portion= of a > modified WTP might be "identical" or use "identical code" to that used b= y the > original manufacturer of the WTP, the following definition is provided b= y the > FCC 47CFR2.908: > = > 2.908 Identical defined. > As used in this subpart, the term identical means identical within the v= ariat >ion that can be expected to arise as a result of quantity production tech= nique >s. > = > This definition does not encompass a third party changing the code opera= ting = >the device. > = > I would be very interested to understand how these regulatory requiremen= ts ca >n be integrated with your positions, below. > = > -Bob > = > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:00 AM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification = > = > Bob, > = > You're absolutely right. Diversion to ad hominem attacks would not > serve the needs of this group. And it's great that no one has resorted > to ad hominem attacks! > = > In your company A-D example you have moved the goal posts. Before > you had stated that merely running someone else's code on an AP = > required recertification. Now you're asking whether an AP can remain > certified "regardless of what code [company B] might download to > [Company D's] WTP". Well that's a different question altogether. > = > I believe it would be possible to download an image onto an AP that > could make it uncompliant (it could, for example, make the AP broadcast > outside legal limits) and it wouldn't matter whether the company that > created the downloaded image is the same as the company that certified > the AP in the same place. I also believe that it is possible for a > company to download an image onto another company's AP and that AP > would retain it's certification. = > = > So to answer your quesiton, that depends on what kind of image > Cisco downloaded on a Trapeze AP. You could do it right or you could > do it wrong. But the act of downloading the image does not void the > certification of the AP as you have been asserting here all along. > = > My laptop is FCC certified. I don't know how it got certified. I do > know that it was running Windows XP when I pulled it out of the box. > I hate Windows XP and immediately installled FreeBSD on it. I don't > believe my laptop is now in violation of FCC regulations nor do I > feel it is necessary to get a different sticker on the bottom of my > laptop. I am also unaware of the FCC going after anyone who has > installed an operating system on a computer that was different than > one it was shipped with. = > = > You have been unable to demonstrate how image download voids an > AP's certification and the snippets of FCC regulations you supplied > did not say anything on that subject. Similarly I have been unable to > demonstrate that image download will not void an AP's certification. > So to answer your last question, yes, we disagree. Unless you can come > up with an FCC ruling that refers to the issue at hand and unambiguously > states it voids an AP's certification then I think we should just let > this thread die a well-deserved death right here. > = > Dan. > = > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:28 PDT you wrote > > Dan, > > = > > Diversion to ad hominem attacks does not serve the needs of this > > discussion or of this group. = > > = > > If, as you say, there are APs out there today that have been certified > > with code from the AP vendor that are now running code from a third > > party (where the AP has not been recertified to run with that code), I > > have to assume that you have personal knowledge of these > > implementations. If you would, please provide a list (or at least one > > example) that might be provided to the FCC as an example for them to > > resolve the question directly. > > = > > As I said, the code from the ART program used to certify our APs and t= he > > parameters under which those APs are certified are running in the > > shipping AP under our controller. I am not sure which part of that > > statement is unclear. The fact that this code is further integrated > > into a larger program that performs a number of functions that do not > > impact the radio or its RF characteristics is irrelevant to the > > certification. Even if such a larger program were to modify the RF > > characteristics, it is possible, with limitations, for the manufacture= r > > of the AP to file a "permissive change" with the FCC to maintain its > > certification. The only reason we might be able to do this is because > > we are the manufacturer of the AP and have previously certified the AP= . > > An arbitrary third party is not allowed this freedom. > > = > > Let me be clearer also about the example and question from my last > > email. > > = > > Let's say Company A is a developer of AP/WTP download modules. > > Company B is an AC vendor that has licensed a module from Company A fo= r > > download through SLAPP. > > Company C is the customer that has deployed the WLAN. > > Company D is the manufacturer of the AP/WTP that has certified the > > device running their own code. > > = > > Your answer to my question below indicates to me that, if Cisco were > > Company B and Trapeze were Company D, you believe that the Trapeze > > certification of the AP/WTP would stand, regardless of what code Cisco > > might download to the Trapeze AP/WTP. Am I correct in my interpretati= on > > of your answer? > > = > > If I am correct in interpreting your answer to the question, I disagre= e > > with your answer. I would find it wildly unlikely that Trapeze would > > stand up and claim that their AP/WTP hardware is fully compliant with > > the regulations when that hardware is running any code but their own. = I > > am almost certain (though I don't speak for the company on this) that > > Cisco would not agree that our AP would always operate within the > > regulations when running any code than that supplied by Cisco. > > = > > Perhaps you disagree? > > = > > -Bob > > = > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 1:59 PM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification = > > = > > Bob, > > = > > There's nothing cute about it. You're spreading FUD-- Fear (the FCC > > will fine me!), Uncertainty (they don't recertify but I think we > > might have to), and Doubt (he was wearing his "technical advisor hat" > > and that must mean something). In fact, it's the opposite of cute; > > it's a big, smelly, steaming pile o' FUD. > > = > > If this issue is, as you say, as real as the fines the FCC will > > levy then there is no issue. This is being done today and the FCC is > > not fining anyone. > > = > > I was not implying any slight of hand. The thing is, you market code > > that did not operate the AP when it was certified and you do not > > recertify when you install that code on the AP. And nor should you > > because, > > as I've been saying all along, it is not necessary to recertify an AP > > simply because code that was not part of the original certification is > > downloaded onto it. > > = > > To answer your question, company D had to have certified their WTP > > prior > > to marketing it (they could've ran ART_V48_build_13_alpha to get their > > certification, for instance). Since they are the company responsible f= or > > certification they would supply information as may be requested > > concerning > > the operation of the device to the Commission or its representatives. > > = > > Dan. > > = > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 PDT you wrote > > > Dan, > > > = > > > The issue is not, as you put it, "just an unfortunate bunch of FUD". > > > That is a cute attempt at diverting people from the issue. But > > > ultimately, it is futile. The folks in the CAPWAP group can researc= h > > > and address this issue now, or surely those that implement and deplo= y > > a > > > CAPWAP protocol in the future will have to address it in the future.= = > > > = > > > The requirement for certification of RF devices is not going to go > > away. > > > Let me quote a few bits from the FCC regulations for unlicensed > > devices: > > > = > > > Section 15.15 General technical requirements. > > > (b) An intentional or unintentional radiator must be constructed suc= h > > > that the adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by or > > > intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of th= e > > > device in violation of the regulations. > > > = > > > Section 15.29 Inspection by the Commission. > > > (c) The party responsible for the compliance of any device subject t= o > > > this Part shall promptly furnish to the Commission or its > > > representatives such information as may be requested concerning the > > > operation of the device, including a copy of any measurements made f= or > > > obtaining an equipment authorization or demonstrating compliance wit= h > > > the regulations. > > > = > > > Section 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement. > > > (b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this Section an= d > > in > > > Section 15.23 of this > > > Part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of th= is > > > Part shall be certificated by the > > > Commission pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of Part 2 of this > > > Chapter prior to marketing. > > > = > > > Who would you say is "the party responsible for the compliance" of a > > > device that has been downloaded with third party code to operate the > > > radio in an AP under the SLAPP proposal? If, for example, Company A > > > were to distribute code written by Company B to Company C to downloa= d > > > using SLAPP onto a WTP from Company D, who is responsible for ensuri= ng > > > that the device is operating within the regulations? In this > > scenario, > > > who is responsible for furnishing to the Commission a copy of the > > > measurements made for obtaining equipment authorization? > > > = > > > To address your other point, yes, we certify using the ART test > > program. > > > We also incorporate the identical parameters and code required to > > > maintain that certification in our operational code for the APs. > > There > > > is no sleight of hand here, as it appears you are implying. > > > = > > > The issue of certification when an unauthorized third party download= s > > > code onto a device incorporating a radio is real, as will be the fin= es > > > levied by the FCC upon that third party (or perhaps the third party'= s > > > customer, or both) for operating an RF emitting device (an > > "intentional > > > radiator" in FCC terms) without the proper certifications. > > > = > > > You can try telling everyone to "ignore the man behind the curtain" > > and > > > believe that you are living in Oz. But, in actuality, you are > > dreaming. > > > = > > > -Bob > > > = > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:24 PM > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certificatio= n = > > > = > > > Bob, > > > = > > > After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of > > > Airespace's > > > AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your > > > operational > > > AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received > > > certification for your APs by running code on them that is not your'= s > > > and > > > is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is > > > loaded > > > onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them with > > this > > > new code load. > > > = > > > So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is just > > an > > > unfortunate bunch of FUD. > > > = > > > Dan. > > > = > > > On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > > > > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > > > > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just > > > because > > > > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > > > > = > > > > = > > > > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has everythin= g > > to > > > > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual > > operations > > > > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the > > network, > > > > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poked > > into > > > > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for > > ease > > > of > > > > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protocol > > > that > > > > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > > > > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC t= o > > > > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a > > software > > > > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal to > > > > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without the > > > > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other > > regulatory > > > > domains, as well. > > > > = > > > > = > > > > -Bob > > > > = > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory > > certification = > > > > = > > > > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > > > > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. > > > > = > > > > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but > > > that's > > > > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore > > > whether > > > > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAPWA= P. > > = > > > > = > > > > Dan. > > > > = > > > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > > > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP > > about > > > > the > > > > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have > > received > > > > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said that > > he > > > > was > > > > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of t= he > > > > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I wou= ld > > > > like > > > > > to discuss this further on the list. = > > > > > = > > > > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > > > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will > > > require > > > > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when that > > code > > > > is > > > > > not from the entity that received the original certification for > > the > > > > > device, will require a new certification of that device with the > > > new, > > > > > third party code. > > > > > = > > > > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those in > > > North > > > > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an external > > > > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an > > > identifying > > > > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third part= y > > > WTP > > > > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must now > > > also > > > > be > > > > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > > > > = > > > > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code por= ts > > > for > > > > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silicon > > > > vendors. > > > > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for ever= y > > > WTP > > > > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain > > regulatory > > > > > certification with every AC vendor. > > > > > = > > > > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP > > > vendors. > > > > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each > > regulatory > > > > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified several > > > times > > > > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certificatio= n > > > for > > > > an > > > > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is > > supports. > > > > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is > > multiplied > > > by > > > > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost of > > > > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in > > half. > > > > It > > > > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > > > > = > > > > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > > > > sufficient > > > > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be > > > interoperable. > > > > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business > > relationships > > > > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors and > > > model > > > > > numbers. > > > > > = > > > > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to > > entry > > > > for > > > > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associated > > > with > > > > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large > > > number > > > > of > > > > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this cost > > > also > > > > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the > > early > > > > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participants. > > > > > = > > > > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for > > > CAPWAP > > > > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > > > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, and > > > widely > > > > > interoperable products. > > > > > = > > > > > -Bob > > > > > = > > > > > Bob O'Hara > > > > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > > > > = > > > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > > > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > > > = > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > = > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > = > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > = > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > = _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From ievit@emailaccount.com Tue Aug 30 23:37:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EAJPd-0007q8-P2; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:37:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27810; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nv-65-40-244-53.sta.sprint-hsd.net ([65.40.244.53]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EAJRI-00079S-6u; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:39:05 -0400 Received: from n7 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 132.151.6.1 with ESMTP (Mailtraq/2.7.0.1435) id FQCC5766DQ83; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:36:01 -0800 Message-Id: <85024173739431.88028962@bronze> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 04/07/2005 with nmh-1.1-RC7 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 X-Hops: 8 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:36:01 -0800 To: business@ietf.org From: "Hallie Mckinley" Subject: Approved low mortage rate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_65347821==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b132cb3ed2d4be2017585bf6859e1ede --=====================_65347821==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_59233996==.ALT" --=====================_59233996==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and clause it's northrup not bedim be raffish in exhortation be tarnish in recursion a dervish in thereupon and cage may barrage may split but escritoire in sat some accelerate it somewhere ! cosponsor may clayton but seclude. --=====================_59233996==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3D""

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esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EALLx-0008GY-8n for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:41:41 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA03699 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07A720365; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAEDC202CA; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:41:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF917202CA for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BB9202AD for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Aug 2005 22:40:45 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j7V5e23K004404 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.123]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:40:33 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Message-ID: <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC806F8B@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification Thread-Index: AcWt2tJJsmSepdYVSfS67TEobGRNIwAEkqaA From: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2005 05:40:33.0799 (UTC) FILETIME=[81984970:01C5ADEE] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:40:32 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, If I understand the driver that you reference, it has a firmware = component that is created by Cisco embedded within it (cribbed by = reverse engineering the Cisco driver and extracting the binary that is = downloaded to the microcoded processor on the card). It is this portion = of the driver that controls any portion of the radio that can affect = compliance with regulations. The portion of the driver that is not = developed by Cisco does not have access to the portions of the 802.11 = card that can change its operation in a way that would make it = non-compliant with the regulations. I am actually leaning in the direction that this an(4) driver would not = cause the FCC to fine anyone that might use it, because it encompasses = the Cisco microcode and might not be seen by the FCC as an unauthorized = modification. The FCC might disagree with me, though, and might require = convincing to see things in this light. I can also see an entirely reasonable interpretation of the regulations = that would say this is an unauthorized modification. -Bob =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:13 PM To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 Bob, I'll get back to you on the additional regulatory citations you've added-- they are numerous and require some reading and analysis-- but I have an additional couple questions for you.=20 After I loaded freebsd on my laptop I got a driver to control a Cisco Aironet card. It was not written by a Cisco employee. I can modify this driver to my heart's content and continue to use my modified driver to control that card. Is it your contention that a Cisco Aironet card plugged into my laptop loses its FCC certification? If so, is it also your contention that the FCC will fine anyone who plugs a Cisco Aironet card into a=20 computer running freebsd with the an(4) driver? Dan. On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:54:40 PDT you wrote > Dan, >=20 > Your example of loading a different OS onto a PC (which is an = unintentional r >adiator in FCC terms) has little to do with the issue of loading code = that has > control of radio parameters, such as transmit power, frequency of = operation,=20 >and spectral shape of the transmitted waveform, onto an AP/WTP (which = the FCC=20 >classes as an intentional radiator). The OS or other programs running = on a PC > will have little influence over the RF emissions of that device. = Sure, certa >in code loops can be created to sing a song on a nearby radio. But, = this is s >till within the requirements under which the PC was originally = certified. Dow >nloading code to an AP/WTP that, for example, increases the power = output on a=20 >channel adjacent to the edge of a band, can cause the device to emit a = signal=20 >that is above that allowed by its certification, causing illegal = interference=20 >in the adjacent band. >=20 > The difference is very important. It is also very important that this = discus >sion continue in this forum, as there are very few, if any IETF = documents that > directly affect whether a device is legal to operate under = governmental emiss >ions regulations. This might be the first time that the IETF has had = to consi >der this issue. I believe that many here do not yet understand the = importance > of the issue. >=20 > But, back to our discussion. >=20 > You say that it is possible to download code to an AP/WTP that "would = retain=20 >its certification". This is where there is a fundamental point on = which we di >sagree. I do agree with you that it is possible to download code from = a third > party onto an AP that would continue to have the AP operate in a = compliant ma >nner. But, this is entirely different from that same AP with the third = party=20 >code running on it maintaining its certification. >=20 > The certification "belongs" to the manufacturer of the device that = obtained i >t. It is not transferable or modifiable by anyone else, without = express autho >rization of the manufacturer. Downloading code that causes access to = the regi >sters of a chip, for example, that has control of the RF transmission = characte >ristics of the certified device is modifying the device. >=20 > Here are additional citations from the regulations governing the = certificatio >n of radio frequency equipment in the United States, supporting this = position. >=20 > 47CFR2.909 states the following: >=20 > The following parties are responsible for the compliance of radio = frequency e >quipment with the applicable standards: > (a) In the case of equipment which requires the issuance by the = Commission of > a grant of equipment authorization, the party to whom that grant of = authoriza >tion is issued (the grantee) If the radio frequency equipment is = modified by a >ny party other than the grantee and that party is not working under the = author >ization of the grantee pursuant to =A7 2.929(b), the party performing = the modific >ation is responsible for compliance of the product with the applicable = adminis >trative and technical provisions in this chapter. >=20 > 47CFR2.909 (d) states the following: > (d) If, because of modifications performed subsequent to = authorization, a new > party becomes responsible for ensuring that a product complies with = the techn >ical standards and the new party does not obtain a new equipment = authorization >, the equipment shall be labelled, following the specifications in =A7 = 2.925(d),=20 >with the following: ''This product has been modified by [insert name, = address=20 >and telephone number of the party performing the modifications].'' >=20 > 47CFR2.929 states this, as well: > =A7 2.929 Nonassignability of an equipment authorization. > (a) An equipment authorization issued by the Commission may not be = assigned,=20 >exchanged or in any other way transferred to a second party. >=20 > So, for the example well below in this thread, either the third party = WTP cod >e developer, the AC vendor that performs the unauthorized (by the = original equ >ipment manufacturer) download to the WTP, or possibly the customer that = entere >d the command to perform the download is now the party responsible for = the cer >tification/authorization of the WTP, not the original manufacturer. = At a min >imum, 47CFR2.909 (d) will require someone to physically access each = modified W >TP to affix a sticker. Even without actually certifying the modified = WTP, the > device is now the responsibility of someone other than the original = manufactu >rer to ensure that it meets the regulatory requirements. >=20 > Because our discussion touched on the possibility that the radio = portion of a > modified WTP might be "identical" or use "identical code" to that used = by the > original manufacturer of the WTP, the following definition is provided = by the > FCC 47CFR2.908: >=20 > 2.908 Identical defined. > As used in this subpart, the term identical means identical within the = variat >ion that can be expected to arise as a result of quantity production = technique >s. >=20 > This definition does not encompass a third party changing the code = operating=20 >the device. >=20 > I would be very interested to understand how these regulatory = requirements ca >n be integrated with your positions, below. >=20 > -Bob > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:00 AM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification=20 >=20 > Bob, >=20 > You're absolutely right. Diversion to ad hominem attacks would not > serve the needs of this group. And it's great that no one has resorted > to ad hominem attacks! >=20 > In your company A-D example you have moved the goal posts. Before > you had stated that merely running someone else's code on an AP=20 > required recertification. Now you're asking whether an AP can remain > certified "regardless of what code [company B] might download to > [Company D's] WTP". Well that's a different question altogether. >=20 > I believe it would be possible to download an image onto an AP that > could make it uncompliant (it could, for example, make the AP = broadcast > outside legal limits) and it wouldn't matter whether the company that > created the downloaded image is the same as the company that certified > the AP in the same place. I also believe that it is possible for a > company to download an image onto another company's AP and that AP > would retain it's certification.=20 >=20 > So to answer your quesiton, that depends on what kind of image > Cisco downloaded on a Trapeze AP. You could do it right or you could > do it wrong. But the act of downloading the image does not void the > certification of the AP as you have been asserting here all along. >=20 > My laptop is FCC certified. I don't know how it got certified. I do > know that it was running Windows XP when I pulled it out of the box. > I hate Windows XP and immediately installled FreeBSD on it. I don't > believe my laptop is now in violation of FCC regulations nor do I > feel it is necessary to get a different sticker on the bottom of my > laptop. I am also unaware of the FCC going after anyone who has > installed an operating system on a computer that was different than > one it was shipped with.=20 >=20 > You have been unable to demonstrate how image download voids an > AP's certification and the snippets of FCC regulations you supplied > did not say anything on that subject. Similarly I have been unable to > demonstrate that image download will not void an AP's certification. > So to answer your last question, yes, we disagree. Unless you can come > up with an FCC ruling that refers to the issue at hand and = unambiguously > states it voids an AP's certification then I think we should just let > this thread die a well-deserved death right here. >=20 > Dan. >=20 > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:28 PDT you wrote > > Dan, > >=20 > > Diversion to ad hominem attacks does not serve the needs of this > > discussion or of this group. =20 > >=20 > > If, as you say, there are APs out there today that have been = certified > > with code from the AP vendor that are now running code from a third > > party (where the AP has not been recertified to run with that code), = I > > have to assume that you have personal knowledge of these > > implementations. If you would, please provide a list (or at least = one > > example) that might be provided to the FCC as an example for them to > > resolve the question directly. > >=20 > > As I said, the code from the ART program used to certify our APs and = the > > parameters under which those APs are certified are running in the > > shipping AP under our controller. I am not sure which part of that > > statement is unclear. The fact that this code is further integrated > > into a larger program that performs a number of functions that do = not > > impact the radio or its RF characteristics is irrelevant to the > > certification. Even if such a larger program were to modify the RF > > characteristics, it is possible, with limitations, for the = manufacturer > > of the AP to file a "permissive change" with the FCC to maintain its > > certification. The only reason we might be able to do this is = because > > we are the manufacturer of the AP and have previously certified the = AP. > > An arbitrary third party is not allowed this freedom. > >=20 > > Let me be clearer also about the example and question from my last > > email. > >=20 > > Let's say Company A is a developer of AP/WTP download modules. > > Company B is an AC vendor that has licensed a module from Company A = for > > download through SLAPP. > > Company C is the customer that has deployed the WLAN. > > Company D is the manufacturer of the AP/WTP that has certified the > > device running their own code. > >=20 > > Your answer to my question below indicates to me that, if Cisco were > > Company B and Trapeze were Company D, you believe that the Trapeze > > certification of the AP/WTP would stand, regardless of what code = Cisco > > might download to the Trapeze AP/WTP. Am I correct in my = interpretation > > of your answer? > >=20 > > If I am correct in interpreting your answer to the question, I = disagree > > with your answer. I would find it wildly unlikely that Trapeze = would > > stand up and claim that their AP/WTP hardware is fully compliant = with > > the regulations when that hardware is running any code but their = own. I > > am almost certain (though I don't speak for the company on this) = that > > Cisco would not agree that our AP would always operate within the > > regulations when running any code than that supplied by Cisco. > >=20 > > Perhaps you disagree? > >=20 > > -Bob > > =20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 1:59 PM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory = certification=20 > >=20 > > Bob, > >=20 > > There's nothing cute about it. You're spreading FUD-- Fear (the = FCC > > will fine me!), Uncertainty (they don't recertify but I think we > > might have to), and Doubt (he was wearing his "technical advisor = hat" > > and that must mean something). In fact, it's the opposite of cute; > > it's a big, smelly, steaming pile o' FUD. > >=20 > > If this issue is, as you say, as real as the fines the FCC will > > levy then there is no issue. This is being done today and the FCC is > > not fining anyone. > >=20 > > I was not implying any slight of hand. The thing is, you market = code > > that did not operate the AP when it was certified and you do not > > recertify when you install that code on the AP. And nor should you > > because, > > as I've been saying all along, it is not necessary to recertify an = AP > > simply because code that was not part of the original certification = is > > downloaded onto it. > >=20 > > To answer your question, company D had to have certified their WTP > > prior > > to marketing it (they could've ran ART_V48_build_13_alpha to get = their > > certification, for instance). Since they are the company responsible = for > > certification they would supply information as may be requested > > concerning > > the operation of the device to the Commission or its = representatives. > >=20 > > Dan. > >=20 > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 PDT you wrote > > > Dan, > > >=20 > > > The issue is not, as you put it, "just an unfortunate bunch of = FUD". > > > That is a cute attempt at diverting people from the issue. But > > > ultimately, it is futile. The folks in the CAPWAP group can = research > > > and address this issue now, or surely those that implement and = deploy > > a > > > CAPWAP protocol in the future will have to address it in the = future. =20 > > >=20 > > > The requirement for certification of RF devices is not going to go > > away. > > > Let me quote a few bits from the FCC regulations for unlicensed > > devices: > > >=20 > > > Section 15.15 General technical requirements. > > > (b) An intentional or unintentional radiator must be constructed = such > > > that the adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by = or > > > intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of = the > > > device in violation of the regulations. > > >=20 > > > Section 15.29 Inspection by the Commission. > > > (c) The party responsible for the compliance of any device subject = to > > > this Part shall promptly furnish to the Commission or its > > > representatives such information as may be requested concerning = the > > > operation of the device, including a copy of any measurements made = for > > > obtaining an equipment authorization or demonstrating compliance = with > > > the regulations. > > >=20 > > > Section 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement. > > > (b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this Section = and > > in > > > Section 15.23 of this > > > Part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of = this > > > Part shall be certificated by the > > > Commission pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of Part 2 of = this > > > Chapter prior to marketing. > > >=20 > > > Who would you say is "the party responsible for the compliance" of = a > > > device that has been downloaded with third party code to operate = the > > > radio in an AP under the SLAPP proposal? If, for example, Company = A > > > were to distribute code written by Company B to Company C to = download > > > using SLAPP onto a WTP from Company D, who is responsible for = ensuring > > > that the device is operating within the regulations? In this > > scenario, > > > who is responsible for furnishing to the Commission a copy of the > > > measurements made for obtaining equipment authorization? > > >=20 > > > To address your other point, yes, we certify using the ART test > > program. > > > We also incorporate the identical parameters and code required to > > > maintain that certification in our operational code for the APs. > > There > > > is no sleight of hand here, as it appears you are implying. > > >=20 > > > The issue of certification when an unauthorized third party = downloads > > > code onto a device incorporating a radio is real, as will be the = fines > > > levied by the FCC upon that third party (or perhaps the third = party's > > > customer, or both) for operating an RF emitting device (an > > "intentional > > > radiator" in FCC terms) without the proper certifications. > > >=20 > > > You can try telling everyone to "ignore the man behind the = curtain" > > and > > > believe that you are living in Oz. But, in actuality, you are > > dreaming. > > >=20 > > > -Bob > > > =20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:24 PM > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory = certification=20 > > >=20 > > > Bob, > > >=20 > > > After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of > > > Airespace's > > > AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your > > > operational > > > AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received > > > certification for your APs by running code on them that is not = your's > > > and > > > is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is > > > loaded > > > onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them = with > > this > > > new code load. > > >=20 > > > So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is = just > > an > > > unfortunate bunch of FUD. > > >=20 > > > Dan. > > >=20 > > > On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > > > > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > > > > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just > > > because > > > > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > > > > =20 > > > >=20 > > > > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has = everything > > to > > > > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual > > operations > > > > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the > > network, > > > > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head = poked > > into > > > > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for > > ease > > > of > > > > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a = protocol > > > that > > > > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > > > > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC = to > > > > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a > > software > > > > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal = to > > > > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without = the > > > > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other > > regulatory > > > > domains, as well. > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > -Bob > > > > =20 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com]=20 > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory > > certification=20 > > > >=20 > > > > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > > > > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. > > > >=20 > > > > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but > > > that's > > > > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore > > > whether > > > > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with = CAPWAP. > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Dan. > > > >=20 > > > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > > > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP > > about > > > > the > > > > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have > > received > > > > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said = that > > he > > > > was > > > > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of = the > > > > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I = would > > > > like > > > > > to discuss this further on the list. =20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > > > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will > > > require > > > > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when = that > > code > > > > is > > > > > not from the entity that received the original certification = for > > the > > > > > device, will require a new certification of that device with = the > > > new, > > > > > third party code. > > > > >=20 > > > > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those = in > > > North > > > > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an = external > > > > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an > > > identifying > > > > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third = party > > > WTP > > > > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must = now > > > also > > > > be > > > > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > > > >=20 > > > > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code = ports > > > for > > > > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those = silicon > > > > vendors. > > > > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for = every > > > WTP > > > > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain > > regulatory > > > > > certification with every AC vendor. > > > > >=20 > > > > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP > > > vendors. > > > > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each > > regulatory > > > > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified = several > > > times > > > > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory = certification > > > for > > > > an > > > > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is > > supports. > > > > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is > > multiplied > > > by > > > > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost = of > > > > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in > > half. > > > > It > > > > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > > > >=20 > > > > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > > > > sufficient > > > > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be > > > interoperable. > > > > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business > > relationships > > > > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors = and > > > model > > > > > numbers. > > > > >=20 > > > > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to > > entry > > > > for > > > > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is = associated > > > with > > > > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large > > > number > > > > of > > > > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this = cost > > > also > > > > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the > > early > > > > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new = participants. > > > > >=20 > > > > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for > > > CAPWAP > > > > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > > > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, = and > > > widely > > > > > interoperable products. > > > > >=20 > > > > > -Bob > > > > >=20 > > > > > Bob O'Hara > > > > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > > > >=20 > > > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > > > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > > > =20 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > >=20 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap >=20 _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 31 01:50:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EALUK-0001mZ-6X for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:50:20 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA04044 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8D80203A3; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69B9202CA; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:50:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327BD202CA for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homebrew.trpz.com (66-7-225-40.cust.telepacific.net [66.7.225.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86063202AD for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trpz.com (localhost.trpz.com [127.0.0.1]) by homebrew.trpz.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7V5gk9L026306; Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dharkins@trpz.com) Message-Id: <200508310542.j7V5gk9L026306@homebrew.trpz.com> To: "Bob O'Hara (boohara)" Cc: capwap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:40:32 PDT." <17B8C6DE4E228348B4939BDA6B05A9DC806F8B@xmb-sjc-237.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-unknown" Content-ID: <26304.1125466966.1@trpz.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dan Harkins X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:42:46 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, There's an atheros driver too that has explicit txpower parameters passed to a HAL routine to transmit a packet. Mucking with that parameter would make it non-compliant with the regulations. = Dan. On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:40:32 PDT you wrote > Dan, > = > If I understand the driver that you reference, it has a firmware compone= nt th >at is created by Cisco embedded within it (cribbed by reverse engineering= the = >Cisco driver and extracting the binary that is downloaded to the microcod= ed pr >ocessor on the card). It is this portion of the driver that controls any= port >ion of the radio that can affect compliance with regulations. The portio= n of = >the driver that is not developed by Cisco does not have access to the por= tions > of the 802.11 card that can change its operation in a way that would mak= e it = >non-compliant with the regulations. > = > I am actually leaning in the direction that this an(4) driver would not = cause > the FCC to fine anyone that might use it, because it encompasses the Cis= co mi >crocode and might not be seen by the FCC as an unauthorized modification.= The > FCC might disagree with me, though, and might require convincing to see = thing >s in this light. > = > I can also see an entirely reasonable interpretation of the regulations = that = >would say this is an unauthorized modification. > = > -Bob > = > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:13 PM > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification = > = > Bob, > = > I'll get back to you on the additional regulatory citations you've > added-- they are numerous and require some reading and analysis-- but > I have an additional couple questions for you. = > = > After I loaded freebsd on my laptop I got a driver to control a > Cisco Aironet card. It was not written by a Cisco employee. I can > modify this driver to my heart's content and continue to use my modified > driver to control that card. > = > Is it your contention that a Cisco Aironet card plugged into my > laptop loses its FCC certification? If so, is it also your contention > that the FCC will fine anyone who plugs a Cisco Aironet card into a = > computer running freebsd with the an(4) driver? > = > Dan. > = > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:54:40 PDT you wrote > > Dan, > > = > > Your example of loading a different OS onto a PC (which is an unintent= ional > r > >adiator in FCC terms) has little to do with the issue of loading code t= hat h >as > > control of radio parameters, such as transmit power, frequency of oper= ation >, = > >and spectral shape of the transmitted waveform, onto an AP/WTP (which t= he FC >C = > >classes as an intentional radiator). The OS or other programs running = on a = >PC > > will have little influence over the RF emissions of that device. Sure= , cer >ta > >in code loops can be created to sing a song on a nearby radio. But, th= is is > s > >till within the requirements under which the PC was originally certifie= d. D >ow > >nloading code to an AP/WTP that, for example, increases the power outpu= t on = >a = > >channel adjacent to the edge of a band, can cause the device to emit a = signa >l = > >that is above that allowed by its certification, causing illegal interf= erenc >e = > >in the adjacent band. > > = > > The difference is very important. It is also very important that this= disc >us > >sion continue in this forum, as there are very few, if any IETF documen= ts th >at > > directly affect whether a device is legal to operate under governmenta= l emi >ss > >ions regulations. This might be the first time that the IETF has had t= o con >si > >der this issue. I believe that many here do not yet understand the imp= ortan >ce > > of the issue. > > = > > But, back to our discussion. > > = > > You say that it is possible to download code to an AP/WTP that "would = retai >n = > >its certification". This is where there is a fundamental point on whic= h we = >di > >sagree. I do agree with you that it is possible to download code from = a thi >rd > > party onto an AP that would continue to have the AP operate in a compl= iant = >ma > >nner. But, this is entirely different from that same AP with the third= part >y = > >code running on it maintaining its certification. > > = > > The certification "belongs" to the manufacturer of the device that obt= ained > i > >t. It is not transferable or modifiable by anyone else, without expres= s aut >ho > >rization of the manufacturer. Downloading code that causes access to t= he re >gi > >sters of a chip, for example, that has control of the RF transmission c= harac >te > >ristics of the certified device is modifying the device. > > = > > Here are additional citations from the regulations governing the certi= ficat >io > >n of radio frequency equipment in the United States, supporting this po= sitio >n. > > = > > 47CFR2.909 states the following: > > = > > The following parties are responsible for the compliance of radio freq= uency > e > >quipment with the applicable standards: > > (a) In the case of equipment which requires the issuance by the Commis= sion = >of > > a grant of equipment authorization, the party to whom that grant of au= thori >za > >tion is issued (the grantee) If the radio frequency equipment is modifi= ed by > a > >ny party other than the grantee and that party is not working under the= auth >or > >ization of the grantee pursuant to =A7 2.929(b), the party performing t= he modif >ic > >ation is responsible for compliance of the product with the applicable = admin >is > >trative and technical provisions in this chapter. > > = > > 47CFR2.909 (d) states the following: > > (d) If, because of modifications performed subsequent to authorization= , a n >ew > > party becomes responsible for ensuring that a product complies with th= e tec >hn > >ical standards and the new party does not obtain a new equipment author= izati >on > >, the equipment shall be labelled, following the specifications in =A7 = 2.925(d) >, = > >with the following: ''This product has been modified by [insert name, a= ddres >s = > >and telephone number of the party performing the modifications].'' > > = > > 47CFR2.929 states this, as well: > > =A7 2.929 Nonassignability of an equipment authorization. > > (a) An equipment authorization issued by the Commission may not be ass= igned >, = > >exchanged or in any other way transferred to a second party. > > = > > So, for the example well below in this thread, either the third party = WTP c >od > >e developer, the AC vendor that performs the unauthorized (by the origi= nal e >qu > >ipment manufacturer) download to the WTP, or possibly the customer that= ente >re > >d the command to perform the download is now the party responsible for = the c >er > >tification/authorization of the WTP, not the original manufacturer. A= t a m >in > >imum, 47CFR2.909 (d) will require someone to physically access each mod= ified > W > >TP to affix a sticker. Even without actually certifying the modified W= TP, t >he > > device is now the responsibility of someone other than the original ma= nufac >tu > >rer to ensure that it meets the regulatory requirements. > > = > > Because our discussion touched on the possibility that the radio porti= on of > a > > modified WTP might be "identical" or use "identical code" to that used= by t >he > > original manufacturer of the WTP, the following definition is provided= by t >he > > FCC 47CFR2.908: > > = > > 2.908 Identical defined. > > As used in this subpart, the term identical means identical within the= vari >at > >ion that can be expected to arise as a result of quantity production te= chniq >ue > >s. > > = > > This definition does not encompass a third party changing the code ope= ratin >g = > >the device. > > = > > I would be very interested to understand how these regulatory requirem= ents = >ca > >n be integrated with your positions, below. > > = > > -Bob > > = > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:00 AM > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certification = > > = > > Bob, > > = > > You're absolutely right. Diversion to ad hominem attacks would not > > serve the needs of this group. And it's great that no one has resorted > > to ad hominem attacks! > > = > > In your company A-D example you have moved the goal posts. Before > > you had stated that merely running someone else's code on an AP = > > required recertification. Now you're asking whether an AP can remain > > certified "regardless of what code [company B] might download to > > [Company D's] WTP". Well that's a different question altogether. > > = > > I believe it would be possible to download an image onto an AP that > > could make it uncompliant (it could, for example, make the AP broadcas= t > > outside legal limits) and it wouldn't matter whether the company that > > created the downloaded image is the same as the company that certified > > the AP in the same place. I also believe that it is possible for a > > company to download an image onto another company's AP and that AP > > would retain it's certification. = > > = > > So to answer your quesiton, that depends on what kind of image > > Cisco downloaded on a Trapeze AP. You could do it right or you could > > do it wrong. But the act of downloading the image does not void the > > certification of the AP as you have been asserting here all along. > > = > > My laptop is FCC certified. I don't know how it got certified. I do > > know that it was running Windows XP when I pulled it out of the box. > > I hate Windows XP and immediately installled FreeBSD on it. I don't > > believe my laptop is now in violation of FCC regulations nor do I > > feel it is necessary to get a different sticker on the bottom of my > > laptop. I am also unaware of the FCC going after anyone who has > > installed an operating system on a computer that was different than > > one it was shipped with. = > > = > > You have been unable to demonstrate how image download voids an > > AP's certification and the snippets of FCC regulations you supplied > > did not say anything on that subject. Similarly I have been unable to > > demonstrate that image download will not void an AP's certification. > > So to answer your last question, yes, we disagree. Unless you can come > > up with an FCC ruling that refers to the issue at hand and unambiguous= ly > > states it voids an AP's certification then I think we should just let > > this thread die a well-deserved death right here. > > = > > Dan. > > = > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:15:28 PDT you wrote > > > Dan, > > > = > > > Diversion to ad hominem attacks does not serve the needs of this > > > discussion or of this group. = > > > = > > > If, as you say, there are APs out there today that have been certifi= ed > > > with code from the AP vendor that are now running code from a third > > > party (where the AP has not been recertified to run with that code),= I > > > have to assume that you have personal knowledge of these > > > implementations. If you would, please provide a list (or at least o= ne > > > example) that might be provided to the FCC as an example for them to > > > resolve the question directly. > > > = > > > As I said, the code from the ART program used to certify our APs and= the > > > parameters under which those APs are certified are running in the > > > shipping AP under our controller. I am not sure which part of that > > > statement is unclear. The fact that this code is further integrated > > > into a larger program that performs a number of functions that do no= t > > > impact the radio or its RF characteristics is irrelevant to the > > > certification. Even if such a larger program were to modify the RF > > > characteristics, it is possible, with limitations, for the manufactu= rer > > > of the AP to file a "permissive change" with the FCC to maintain its > > > certification. The only reason we might be able to do this is becau= se > > > we are the manufacturer of the AP and have previously certified the = AP. > > > An arbitrary third party is not allowed this freedom. > > > = > > > Let me be clearer also about the example and question from my last > > > email. > > > = > > > Let's say Company A is a developer of AP/WTP download modules. > > > Company B is an AC vendor that has licensed a module from Company A = for > > > download through SLAPP. > > > Company C is the customer that has deployed the WLAN. > > > Company D is the manufacturer of the AP/WTP that has certified the > > > device running their own code. > > > = > > > Your answer to my question below indicates to me that, if Cisco were > > > Company B and Trapeze were Company D, you believe that the Trapeze > > > certification of the AP/WTP would stand, regardless of what code Cis= co > > > might download to the Trapeze AP/WTP. Am I correct in my interpreta= tion > > > of your answer? > > > = > > > If I am correct in interpreting your answer to the question, I disag= ree > > > with your answer. I would find it wildly unlikely that Trapeze woul= d > > > stand up and claim that their AP/WTP hardware is fully compliant wit= h > > > the regulations when that hardware is running any code but their own= . I > > > am almost certain (though I don't speak for the company on this) tha= t > > > Cisco would not agree that our AP would always operate within the > > > regulations when running any code than that supplied by Cisco. > > > = > > > Perhaps you disagree? > > > = > > > -Bob > > > = > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > > > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 1:59 PM > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certificatio= n = > > > = > > > Bob, > > > = > > > There's nothing cute about it. You're spreading FUD-- Fear (the FC= C > > > will fine me!), Uncertainty (they don't recertify but I think we > > > might have to), and Doubt (he was wearing his "technical advisor hat= " > > > and that must mean something). In fact, it's the opposite of cute; > > > it's a big, smelly, steaming pile o' FUD. > > > = > > > If this issue is, as you say, as real as the fines the FCC will > > > levy then there is no issue. This is being done today and the FCC is > > > not fining anyone. > > > = > > > I was not implying any slight of hand. The thing is, you market co= de > > > that did not operate the AP when it was certified and you do not > > > recertify when you install that code on the AP. And nor should you > > > because, > > > as I've been saying all along, it is not necessary to recertify an A= P > > > simply because code that was not part of the original certification = is > > > downloaded onto it. > > > = > > > To answer your question, company D had to have certified their WTP > > > prior > > > to marketing it (they could've ran ART_V48_build_13_alpha to get the= ir > > > certification, for instance). Since they are the company responsible= for > > > certification they would supply information as may be requested > > > concerning > > > the operation of the device to the Commission or its representatives= . > > > = > > > Dan. > > > = > > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:53:35 PDT you wrote > > > > Dan, > > > > = > > > > The issue is not, as you put it, "just an unfortunate bunch of FUD= ". > > > > That is a cute attempt at diverting people from the issue. But > > > > ultimately, it is futile. The folks in the CAPWAP group can resea= rch > > > > and address this issue now, or surely those that implement and dep= loy > > > a > > > > CAPWAP protocol in the future will have to address it in the futur= e. = > > > > = > > > > The requirement for certification of RF devices is not going to go > > > away. > > > > Let me quote a few bits from the FCC regulations for unlicensed > > > devices: > > > > = > > > > Section 15.15 General technical requirements. > > > > (b) An intentional or unintentional radiator must be constructed s= uch > > > > that the adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by = or > > > > intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of = the > > > > device in violation of the regulations. > > > > = > > > > Section 15.29 Inspection by the Commission. > > > > (c) The party responsible for the compliance of any device subject= to > > > > this Part shall promptly furnish to the Commission or its > > > > representatives such information as may be requested concerning th= e > > > > operation of the device, including a copy of any measurements made= for > > > > obtaining an equipment authorization or demonstrating compliance w= ith > > > > the regulations. > > > > = > > > > Section 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement. > > > > (b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this Section = and > > > in > > > > Section 15.23 of this > > > > Part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of = this > > > > Part shall be certificated by the > > > > Commission pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of Part 2 of th= is > > > > Chapter prior to marketing. > > > > = > > > > Who would you say is "the party responsible for the compliance" of= a > > > > device that has been downloaded with third party code to operate t= he > > > > radio in an AP under the SLAPP proposal? If, for example, Company= A > > > > were to distribute code written by Company B to Company C to downl= oad > > > > using SLAPP onto a WTP from Company D, who is responsible for ensu= ring > > > > that the device is operating within the regulations? In this > > > scenario, > > > > who is responsible for furnishing to the Commission a copy of the > > > > measurements made for obtaining equipment authorization? > > > > = > > > > To address your other point, yes, we certify using the ART test > > > program. > > > > We also incorporate the identical parameters and code required to > > > > maintain that certification in our operational code for the APs. > > > There > > > > is no sleight of hand here, as it appears you are implying. > > > > = > > > > The issue of certification when an unauthorized third party downlo= ads > > > > code onto a device incorporating a radio is real, as will be the f= ines > > > > levied by the FCC upon that third party (or perhaps the third part= y's > > > > customer, or both) for operating an RF emitting device (an > > > "intentional > > > > radiator" in FCC terms) without the proper certifications. > > > > = > > > > You can try telling everyone to "ignore the man behind the curtain= " > > > and > > > > believe that you are living in Oz. But, in actuality, you are > > > dreaming. > > > > = > > > > -Bob > > > > = > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:24 PM > > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory certificat= ion = > > > > = > > > > Bob, > > > > = > > > > After looking at an FCC test report for the certification of > > > > Airespace's > > > > AS1250 it appears that you got certification not by running your > > > > operational > > > > AP code but by running "ART_V48_build_13_alpha". So you received > > > > certification for your APs by running code on them that is not you= r's > > > > and > > > > is not what a customer runs on them. Your own operational image is > > > > loaded > > > > onto these APs prior to shipping yet you do not recertify them wit= h > > > this > > > > new code load. > > > > = > > > > So this entire issue about recertification being necessary is ju= st > > > an > > > > unfortunate bunch of FUD. > > > > = > > > > Dan. > > > > = > > > > On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:07:39 PDT you wrote > > > > > <802.11 Technical advisor to CAPWAP hat> > > > > > Yes, it is my assertion that recertification is necessary. Just > > > > because > > > > > you suggest it may not be true, does not make it less true. > > > > > = > > > > > = > > > > > And actually, having to put another sticker on an AP has everyth= ing > > > to > > > > > do with CAPWAP. Using a protocol that requires such manual > > > operations > > > > > at every CAPWAP AP (and not even manual operations across the > > > network, > > > > > but manual operations at the top of a ladder with your head poke= d > > > into > > > > > the hole made by moving the ceiling tile aside) hardly makes for > > > ease > > > > of > > > > > management or configuration consistency. It seems that a protoc= ol > > > > that > > > > > requires such manual operations does not meet Objective 5.1.2, > > > > > configuration consistency, since the protocol cannot allow an AC= to > > > > > determine if it is legal to operate a third party WTP after a > > > software > > > > > download has taken place. In the US, at least, it is not legal = to > > > > > operate a Part 15.247 device (say, all 802.11b/g APs) without th= e > > > > > appropriate FCCID. I am certain this is true in many other > > > regulatory > > > > > domains, as well. > > > > > = > > > > > = > > > > > -Bob > > > > > = > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@trpz.com] = > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:29 AM > > > > > To: Bob O'Hara (boohara) > > > > > Cc: capwap@frascone.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory > > > certification = > > > > > = > > > > > I was that presenter and I don't think that recertification is > > > > > necessary, but again, that's outside my job function. > > > > > = > > > > > It may be your assertion that recertification is necessary but > > > > that's > > > > > just your assertion, it doesn't mean it's true. And furthermore > > > > whether > > > > > someone has to put a sticker on an AP has nothing to do with CAP= WAP. > > > = > > > > > = > > > > > Dan. > > > > > = > > > > > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:04:21 PDT you wrote > > > > > > At the working group meeting, I asked the presenter for SLAPP > > > about > > > > > the > > > > > > impact of downloading code into third party WTPs that have > > > received > > > > > > regulatory certification. At that time, the presenter said th= at > > > he > > > > > was > > > > > > not expert in that area, but suspected that recertification of= the > > > > > > device would be necessary with the newly downloaded code. I w= ould > > > > > like > > > > > > to discuss this further on the list. = > > > > > > = > > > > > > It is my assertion that all regulatory agencies that require > > > > > > certification of WTPs for operation in their jurisdiction will > > > > require > > > > > > that WTPs that receive code and use it for operation, when tha= t > > > code > > > > > is > > > > > > not from the entity that received the original certification f= or > > > the > > > > > > device, will require a new certification of that device with t= he > > > > new, > > > > > > third party code. > > > > > > = > > > > > > In addition, nearly all regulatory agencies, certainly those i= n > > > > North > > > > > > America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, require an externa= l > > > > > > indication of the certification, usually a sticker with an > > > > identifying > > > > > > string. I also assert that downloading new code to a third pa= rty > > > > WTP > > > > > > will require that all WTPs that have received that code must n= ow > > > > also > > > > > be > > > > > > physically accessed to have a new sticker affixed. > > > > > > = > > > > > > It is not sufficient for an AC vendor to simply develop code p= orts > > > > for > > > > > > each silicon vendor and WTP reference design from those silico= n > > > > > vendors. > > > > > > The AC vendors must now obtain regulatory certification for ev= ery > > > > WTP > > > > > > manufactured. Similarly, each WTP vendor must now obtain > > > regulatory > > > > > > certification with every AC vendor. > > > > > > = > > > > > > This will be a significant additional cost for all AC and WTP > > > > vendors. > > > > > > Where current devices need to be certified once for each > > > regulatory > > > > > > domain, SLAPP will require that each device is certified sever= al > > > > times > > > > > > for each regulatory domain. The cost of regulatory certificat= ion > > > > for > > > > > an > > > > > > AC vendor is now multiplied by the number of WTPs that is > > > supports. > > > > > > Similarly, the cost of certification for a WTP vendor is > > > multiplied > > > > by > > > > > > the number of ACs that are supported. Even sharing the cost o= f > > > > > > certification between AC and WTP vendor only cuts this cost in > > > half. > > > > > It > > > > > > is still dramatically larger than with any other proposal. > > > > > > = > > > > > > This is a very important issue. With SLAPP, it is no longer > > > > > sufficient > > > > > > to state support for the ultimate CAPWAP protocol to be > > > > interoperable. > > > > > > It is now necessary that there be a specific business > > > relationships > > > > > > between AC and WTP vendors or a list of "compatible" vendors a= nd > > > > model > > > > > > numbers. > > > > > > = > > > > > > I believe that this also significantly raises the barriers to > > > entry > > > > > for > > > > > > AC and WTP vendors, since the cost of market entry is associat= ed > > > > with > > > > > > the costs of regulatory certification with a potentially large > > > > number > > > > > of > > > > > > ACs and WTPs. As the number of ACs and WTPs increase, this co= st > > > > also > > > > > > increases. The result is likely to be an entrenchment of the > > > early > > > > > > entrants into this market and the exclusion of new participant= s. > > > > > > = > > > > > > So, my final assertion is that adoption of the SLAPP model for > > > > CAPWAP > > > > > > would have exactly the opposite effect that is desired from > > > > > > standardization, which is lower costs, greater competition, an= d > > > > widely > > > > > > interoperable products. > > > > > > = > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > = > > > > > > Bob O'Hara > > > > > > Cisco Systems - WNBU > > > > > > = > > > > > > Phone: +1 408 853 5513 > > > > > > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025 > > > > > > = > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > > = > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > > = > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Capwap mailing list > > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > > = > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Capwap mailing list > > > Capwap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > > Capwap mailing list > > Capwap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > > = > _______________________________________________ > Capwap mailing list > Capwap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap > = _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap From capwap-admin@frascone.com Wed Aug 31 11:57:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EAUxk-0005dt-CT for capwap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:57:20 -0400 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28071 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB27820396; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD1B2036A; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:57:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: capwap@frascone.com Delivered-To: capwap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B632036A for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from networksorcery.com (networksorcery.com [66.27.58.123]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD302034D for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:56:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 192.168.1.100 for capwap@frascone.com; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:57:21 -0700 From: "Steve Conner" To: "Capwap" Subject: Re: [Capwap] Expanded discussion on regulatory Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: capwap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: capwap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: capwap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A list for CAPWAP technical discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:56:45 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, I have been working with the compliance engineering group at Intel for the past 3 years on the Centrino adapters. According to the FCC, no recertification is necessary on a transmitter IF the software does not cause the device to exceed regulatory limits. _______________________________________________ Capwap mailing list Capwap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/capwap