From mei@cosmosgifts.com Thu Jan 1 03:49:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985463A6904; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 03:49:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -32.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-32.593 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_CUST=0.245, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lTkfjrSxe3J5; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 03:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from vpn-195-69-246-78.customer.onet.com.ua (vpn-195-69-246-78.customer.onet.com.ua [195.69.246.78]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B0DF73A679C; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 03:48:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 06:48:39 -0500 From: "Lesley Moser" Subject: Take a look at the Chopard watches! To: atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Lesley, Christmas is the time to get Gucci watch, and the only place to get top notch watches that look and perform exactly like the originals is http://www.peonmind.com/ Take an extra 15% off your purchase during month of December. http://www.peonmind.com/ Our Gucci have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original. Sincerely, Mr Moser From junstin.berehowyj@aafc.org.au Thu Jan 1 05:31:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAE228C174 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 05:31:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.647 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2WAbwZaBzAu3 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 05:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from c-71-63-224-40.hsd1.mn.comcast.net (c-71-63-224-40.hsd1.mn.comcast.net [71.63.224.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CC8328C156 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 05:28:36 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Happy New Year! From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090101132837.5CC8328C156@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 05:28:36 -0800 (PST)


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From a1aaa1azzzz1zaaaaa@wasou.com Thu Jan 1 11:24:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9025A28C16A; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:24:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.26 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.26 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJ60lbBRERu3; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-69-82-136.dial-up.telesp.net.br (201-69-82-136.dial-up.telesp.net.br [201.69.82.136]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 19EA03A6AB9; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:23:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:23:44 -0500 From: "Sonia Ward" Subject: Take a look at the Franck Muller watches! To: atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sonia, If you've waited to get your Bvlgari watch, this is the right time to go for it. http://www.peonmine.com/ We are offering wholesaler prices on all watches during the month of December. http://www.peonmine.com/ Our Bvlgari have all appropriate markings, wordings and engravings same as orginal. Sincerely, Mr Ward From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 1 16:45:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 206593A69CE for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:45:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nNVoBoeLVRMB for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A67A03A6A24 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n020bhIb004646 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:37:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n020bheC004645; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:37:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.174]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n020bWik004636 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:37:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so6091460wfc.28 for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.172.12 with SMTP id u12mr6434378wfe.26.1230856652210; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.4? (c-24-23-201-214.hsd1.mn.comcast.net [24.23.201.214]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 24sm36420469wff.37.2009.01.01.16.37.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:37:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:37:30 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi folks, A small group of which I'm a member has been working on a specification for describing activities as Atom entries. An "activity" for our purposes is an action a user has taken on a social website, such as posting a photo or marking it as a favorite. The draft we have so far is here: http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity In the process of working this through, we discovered a number of other problems that we believe require Atom extensions to solve, so we've also got drafts of a number of peripheral specifications. As Sam Ruby posted earlier in the month[1], one issue encountered was the lack of a standard way to publish media items such as photos and videos in Atom. While a couple of publishers (notably Google properties) use the elements from MediaRSS for this purpose, the few implementations I found were inconsistent. It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped media specification might be useful, so we drafted up this: http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia We also have a small specification for describing the "service provider" that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is intended to be similar in design to atom:author. http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider Finally, we have a small extension to Atom Threading Extensions to allow some metadata about the parent entry to be included in the child so that consumers can avoid fetching source feeds in certain cases. This is intended to be similar in principle to atom:source http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/commentmeta I'm well aware that these drafts need plenty more editorial work, and may need more detail in certain spots, but since some folks are ready to start implementing based on these drafts I wanted to throw them out here to get a few more eyes on them, so that if there are any major problems with the technical direction we're taking we might fix them before there are too many implementations to change. I would appreciate it if folks here would cast a critical eye over what we're proposing and let me know if you see fundamental flaws in our approach to any of these problems. We will of course continue to refine these documents and hopefully we would be able to bring some or all of them over here and work on them with the wider Atom community. Thanks, Martin ----------------------------------------- [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20818.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 1 20:02:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB323A6814 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:02:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LSXhVWZtp42i for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C113A68F7 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n023t9k8010633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:55:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n023t9Ta010632; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:55:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n023spA6010584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:55:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [192.168.2.103] (unknown [71.179.34.209]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 55E72D05BF; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 22:54:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: Atom Syntax Message-Id: From: Mark Nottingham To: Martin Atkins In-Reply-To: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 22:54:49 -0500 References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Martin, Interesting stuff. Are you actually submitting these as Internet- Drafts? (please do, if not already...). Cheers, On 01/01/2009, at 7:37 PM, Martin Atkins wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > A small group of which I'm a member has been working on a > specification for describing activities as Atom entries. An > "activity" for our purposes is an action a user has taken on a > social website, such as posting a photo or marking it as a favorite. > > The draft we have so far is here: > http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity > > In the process of working this through, we discovered a number of > other problems that we believe require Atom extensions to solve, so > we've also got drafts of a number of peripheral specifications. > > As Sam Ruby posted earlier in the month[1], one issue encountered > was the lack of a standard way to publish media items such as photos > and videos in Atom. While a couple of publishers (notably Google > properties) use the elements from MediaRSS for this purpose, the few > implementations I found were inconsistent. It was suggested that a > more Atom-shaped media specification might be useful, so we drafted > up this: > http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia > > We also have a small specification for describing the "service > provider" that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This > is intended to be similar in design to atom:author. > http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider > > Finally, we have a small extension to Atom Threading Extensions to > allow some metadata about the parent entry to be included in the > child so that consumers can avoid fetching source feeds in certain > cases. This is intended to be similar in principle to atom:source > http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/commentmeta > > I'm well aware that these drafts need plenty more editorial work, > and may need more detail in certain spots, but since some folks are > ready to start implementing based on these drafts I wanted to throw > them out here to get a few more eyes on them, so that if there are > any major problems with the technical direction we're taking we > might fix them before there are too many implementations to change. > > I would appreciate it if folks here would cast a critical eye over > what we're proposing and let me know if you see fundamental flaws in > our approach to any of these problems. > > We will of course continue to refine these documents and hopefully > we would be able to bring some or all of them over here and work on > them with the wider Atom community. > > Thanks, > Martin > > ----------------------------------------- > > [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20818.html > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 1 23:02:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BC43A6AEB for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:02:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.426, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yCh02QMC0AOG for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (Balder-227.Proper.COM [192.245.12.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ED23A67A4 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n026p5uv016262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:51:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n026p5tp016261; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:51:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-ew0-f21.google.com (mail-ew0-f21.google.com [209.85.219.21]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n026opTu016250 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:51:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from asbjornu@gmail.com) Received: by ewy14 with SMTP id 14so7091572ewy.10 for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:50:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:date:to:subject:from :cc:content-type:mime-version:references:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=sI+HZ5Gj6bbypNWgvjWV78rzz9j8j3xvZ2qcKzsAQfA=; b=TgUr07MNakraY3cbDd/83jkQt/4MqmOC2sVmwzvQ2Ftj8Or47HcO9HxxwKcqO7V3KM brfXM+VemBnd0GegiN+qNL2NCFn98VVtv+9pXxSQMiPiVogTkX1reEdWJfWddIIynXwX 2qLAHYgaPHXVj1Rgpjk4D0vrXHBLq7gghOFYs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:to:subject:from:cc:content-type:mime-version:references :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=LF/S/DIP616+MYoZgY1U9L1cGL2ysYQSK70HHA61McUhoR/CCKDNzcy3+RNX9AHI/C areb+eGe7AimQmSKeUpzOmeRlR6di72yjjIe4l2zFTWFEQoD8hkajGM7fnPTrtmNAuHr naRgGersU9s/h/l5PML5WL/kYAZotXVK6PaPo= Received: by 10.210.82.7 with SMTP id f7mr2749018ebb.115.1230879050441; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from quark-mac-pro.local (191.84-48-117.nextgentel.com [84.48.117.191]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z40sm54173894ikz.9.2009.01.01.22.50.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:50:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 07:50:47 +0100 To: "Phil Archer" , "Anne van Kesteren" Subject: Re: link relationship registration From: =?iso-8859-15?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Cc: "Mark Nottingham" , "ietf-http-wg@w3.org Group" , "Atom Syntax" , www-tag@w3.org, "HTML WG" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20081201010354.644633A6A7D@core3.amsl.com> <6C2ED61A-5AC5-4483-9D45-244A8A095D04@mnot.net> <1228162202.6953.243.camel@pav.lan> <3B7240FB-8C0A-45DD-87F3-D6A416F85689@mnot.net> <493F90CD.4080802@gmx.de> <10570784-102E-47BA-AFFB-F988B0044F83@mnot.net> <18CD8C1C-F53D-4BD5-A619-B69880DEF46E@mnot.net> <7BC6DD23-E239-4857-94D1-B8CD94FF7BE7@mnot.net> <493FACF1.7080401@philarcher.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <493FACF1.7080401@philarcher.org> User-Agent: Opera Mail/10.00 (MacIntel) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:50:09 +0100, Phil Archer wrote: > Case sensitivity is an issue. Hmmm... can 04 say that tokens given as > rel types SHOULD be lower case and that UAs SHOULD treat such tokens as > case insensitive? Would that put too much of a strain on saying that > tokens are treated as relative URIs? (I know that paths are case > sensitive). Is perhaps RFC 4287's definition of atom:id a good starting place for defining how this token should be created, matched, etc.? > There shouldn't be any need for UAs to resolve tokens given as values > for @rel as absolute URIs and no one's suggesting that UAs should > actually make an HTTP request of any kind to iana.org every time there's > a link to a stylesheet. It's the person minting the new relationship > type that needs to check. What it means is that if you create a link > (HTML or HTTP) and use a @rel type 'foo' that gives a 404 from > http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/foo then you really shouldn't > expect UAs to do anything sensible with it. I think this is basically the same old "should a URI be resolvable" discussion we've been having for years, especially wrt XML namespaces and as mentioned; the atom:id element. > Whether a UA chooses to actually implement support for a registered @rel > type remains very much up to the UA developer of course. Entirely up to, imho. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjorn@ulsberg.no «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From oymfvejtjgy@101-fm.com Fri Jan 2 14:26:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CFD3A684C for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:26:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -27.103 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-27.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_04=2.041, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_HTML_A_BODY=0.742, SARE_HTML_IMG_ONLY=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ajxkiCqj8n6A for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from host238-172-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it (host238-172-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it [79.25.172.238]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B21F3A67EF for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:26:14 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: This mail is refused message From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090102222614.6B21F3A67EF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:26:14 -0800 (PST) Having trouble viewing this email? Click here to view as a webpage. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 2 14:31:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD9A3A69A4 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:31:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.523, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qVe5l2AweGBs for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (Balder-227.Proper.COM [192.245.12.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9737A3A67EF for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n02MNQMf052616 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:23:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n02MNQIA052615; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:23:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s19.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s19.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.219]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n02MNGB1052600 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:23:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.12]) by bay0-omc3-s19.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:23:15 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:23:15 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.12.180 by BAY141-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:23:11 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.12.180] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 22:23:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jan 2009 22:23:15.0331 (UTC) FILETIME=[B4A08D30:01C96D28] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Martin Atkins wrote: > It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped media specification might be > useful, so we drafted up this: > http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia At first glance that all seems fairly reasonable to me. The only thing that concerned me was the media:description element. Is there any reason why the atom:summary element wouldn't work just as well? I'm trying to imagine how I would construct a feed if I were a photo service like say flickr. The title is obvious, the content I'd probably put an html img thumbnail along with a more detailed description if the author had provided one, and the summary would just be the aforementioned description. I can't see what I'd do with the media:description element other than duplicate the atom:summary. Is there a specific use-case that I'm missing? > We also have a small specification for describing the "service provider" > that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is intended to > be similar in design to atom:author. > http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider It's worth pointing out that some feed parsers might be confused by the use of existing atom:elements. For example they'll interpret your service:provider title as the title of the feed. I know Planet Venus used to have problems with that sort of thing, although it's possible it has since been fixed. Also, it could be argued that you're redefining the meaning of the atom elements. In RFC4287, atom:title is defined as "a human-readable title for an entry or feed". That's not how you're using it at all. I'm not sure if that sort of thing matters. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 2 15:27:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657543A67EF for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:27:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TxntuJkx0kjg for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (Balder-227.Proper.COM [192.245.12.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D9E3A6403 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n02NJlRY054637 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Jan 2009 16:19:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n02NJlab054636; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 16:19:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n02NJax9054629 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 16:19:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so6812720rvf.34 for ; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.70.16 with SMTP id s16mr7516819wfa.151.1230938376213; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.115? (c-67-170-255-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.170.255.8]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm42340657wfd.33.2009.01.02.15.19.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:19:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <495EA106.8010009@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:19:34 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James Holderness wrote: > > Martin Atkins wrote: >> It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped media specification might be >> useful, so we drafted up this: >> http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia > > At first glance that all seems fairly reasonable to me. The only thing > that concerned me was the media:description element. Is there any reason > why the atom:summary element wouldn't work just as well? > > I'm trying to imagine how I would construct a feed if I were a photo > service like say flickr. The title is obvious, the content I'd probably > put an html img thumbnail along with a more detailed description if the > author had provided one, and the summary would just be the > aforementioned description. I can't see what I'd do with the > media:description element other than duplicate the atom:summary. > > Is there a specific use-case that I'm missing? > One of the principles I've been following with this stuff is to avoid repurposing existing Atom elements that might be used by generic feed readers, because sites will not want to alter what they're sending to generic feed readers in order to support the new media bits. However, if it turns out that most publishers aren't using atom:summary, that most aggregators don't do anything with it, or that publishers were using it to contain the media description anyway then I'd be happy to remove it. It wasn't really a feature I felt strongly about other than avoiding clashes with existing implementations. >> We also have a small specification for describing the "service >> provider" that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is >> intended to be similar in design to atom:author. >> http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider > > It's worth pointing out that some feed parsers might be confused by the > use of existing atom:elements. For example they'll interpret your > service:provider title as the title of the feed. I know Planet Venus > used to have problems with that sort of thing, although it's possible it > has since been fixed. > If this is true then that would certainly be a problem. I can see how this sort of thing happens, having inadvertently introduced a similar bug by using getElementsByTagNameNS instead of getting only child nodes. Wouldn't suprise me if other implementations do it too, though hopefully they'd be okay as long as the feed-level atom:title appears before atom:provider; otherwise I'd expect such implementations to also interpret the entry-level atom:title as the feed title. I could add in a requirement that service:provider must appear after atom:title if that would avoid this bug. > Also, it could be argued that you're redefining the meaning of the atom > elements. In RFC4287, atom:title is defined as "a human-readable title > for an entry or feed". That's not how you're using it at all. I'm not > sure if that sort of thing matters. > I'm also not sure if this sort of thing matters. For what it's worth, I did also consider using atom:name, the child of atom:author for this purpose, since we're really talking about the name of the provider rather than its title. The choice between title and name was arbitrary, to be honest. However, I could rewrite it to use custom elements if folks think extending the reach of these Atom elements is wrong. I was motivated by trying to make service:provider similar to atom:author, but I guess really atom:name would have been more consistent than atom:title in that case. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 3 04:00:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAC03A688D for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 04:00:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.084 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.084 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.562, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSI4ZYZ71oO1 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 04:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (Balder-227.Proper.COM [192.245.12.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B271E3A67FA for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 04:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n03BpLlJ079786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 3 Jan 2009 04:51:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n03BpL32079785; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 04:51:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from BAY0-OMC3-S10.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s10.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.210]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n03BpAY1079772 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 04:51:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.14]) by BAY0-OMC3-S10.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 3 Jan 2009 03:51:10 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 03:51:10 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.12.180 by BAY141-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 11:51:08 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.12.180] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <495EA106.8010009@degeneration.co.uk> Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:51:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jan 2009 11:51:10.0080 (UTC) FILETIME=[91D44000:01C96D99] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Martin Atkins: > One of the principles I've been following with this stuff is to avoid > repurposing existing Atom elements that might be used by generic feed > readers, because sites will not want to alter what they're sending to > generic feed readers in order to support the new media bits. I have similar concerns, but different conclusions. From what I've seen of feeds in the wild, I get the impression that sites tend to take whatever data they have available, and shove it into whatever fields look more or less appropriate. In the best case, you'll get an identical copy of the summary element. Worst case you'll get a copy of the content element which may be a huge HTML blob, complete with embedded image thumbnails and all sorts of unwanted metadata. Either way you've created an element that's just a duplicate of existing data. Have a look at all the RSS feeds out there using itunes and yahoo media rss extensions. You tend to see the same content repeated a half dozen times in different fields. I'd prefer this spec didn't encourage more of that sort of thing. IMHO you'd be better off encouraging sites to produce a good summary element rather than trying to invent a new element that does essentially the same thing. But that really is just MHO. I do see where you're coming from. >> It's worth pointing out that some feed parsers might be confused by the >> use of existing atom:elements. > > If this is true then that would certainly be a problem. I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. I ran some tests overnight on a couple of feed readers and most seem ok (I wasn't specifically testing your usage - just general forms of nested element reuse). > Wouldn't suprise me if other implementations do it too, though hopefully > they'd be okay as long as the feed-level atom:title appears before > atom:provider; As a general rule that doesn't necessarily apply, but for the specific failure cases I've seen at the feed level, having the atom:title first would have avoided the problem. > I could add in a requirement that service:provider must appear after > atom:title if that would avoid this bug. I don't think it would harm, but IMO that sort of thing belongs in an interoperability appendix - not in the main body of the spec. > I'm also not sure if this sort of thing matters. For what it's worth, I > did also consider using atom:name, the child of atom:author for this > purpose, since we're really talking about the name of the provider rather > than its title. If I had to choose, I'd say atom:name was more appropriate. Your usage seems pretty close to the RFC4287 definition. > However, I could rewrite it to use custom elements if folks think > extending the reach of these Atom elements is wrong. I honestly don't know. I was kind of hoping that some IETF expert on the list would express an opinion once I'd raised the issue. Regards James From mail@agence-m-immobilier.com Sat Jan 3 11:03:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C183A693B for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:03:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CkevrcyA4hza for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from abfa-shiraz.com (unknown [189.7.27.75]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6763B3A692F for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:03:27 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Huge collection of exquisite items! 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From wsr@resultstracker.net Sat Jan 3 23:19:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2AB83A6A71; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 23:19:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -19.965 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-19.965 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sAZBxNFyiO42; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 23:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-68-25-24.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-68-25-24.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.68.25.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E2A53A6A6C; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 23:18:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 02:18:22 -0500 From: "Adolfo Carlton" Subject: Longines better than you could imagine! To: atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Adolfo, How about buying yourself a two Omega watches the same day? It's not impossible, mostly when you can get them for a couple hundred bucks http://www.wanecalls.com/ Take advantage of our christmas specials and get yourself {$WATCH$} watch that you've always wanted! http://www.wanecalls.com/ Our Omega have all appropriate markings, wordings and engravings same as orginal. Sincerely, Mr Carlton From m.hayamaebyu@amada.co.jp Sun Jan 4 13:09:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD253A6813 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:09:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -43.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-43.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_04=2.041, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_HTML_A_BODY=0.742, SARE_HTML_IMG_ONLY=1.666, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jcRljZoxeUek for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp92-100-7-202.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru (ppp92-100-7-202.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru [92.100.7.202]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 228D83A6920 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:09:40 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your message could not be delivered From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090104210941.228D83A6920@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:09:40 -0800 (PST) Having trouble viewing this email? 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From gail@dwcuk.com Sun Jan 4 13:57:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3029B3A6A8C; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:57:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -30.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-30.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gLeKwY1ZfxOy; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 61-to3-7.acn.waw.pl (61-to3-7.acn.waw.pl [85.222.78.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 29A453A6A7E; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:57:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:57:24 -0500 From: "Benny Tucker" Subject: Omega watch for a New Year Gift! To: atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Benny, I had never seen such beautiful and greatly-performing watches like the ones I found online at http://www.wanewanes.com/ From k6d5dtdb074868@ambrisko.com Mon Jan 5 09:26:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3043A657C for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:26:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.822 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.822 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HOST_EQ_DIP_TDIAL=2.144, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iZHpLaxPI125 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from adnc.net (p548CD4C9.dip.t-dialin.net [84.140.212.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C6DC43A63D2 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:26:33 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 49606 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090105172633.C6DC43A63D2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:26:33 -0800 (PST)
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From mitchpittman@aennepress.it Mon Jan 5 16:40:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996273A67D4 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:40:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -53.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-53.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FAFBB+wFjH75 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from uslec-66-255-79-114.cust.uslec.net (uslec-66-255-79-114.cust.uslec.net [66.255.79.114]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id ED7603A65A5 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:40:40 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 07591 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090106004040.ED7603A65A5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:40:40 -0800 (PST)
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From m.colombo@alpe-srl.it Mon Jan 5 17:22:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7FD3A65A5 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:22:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.962 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.962 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZE+A5-ts0EPf for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3ifinancial.com (unknown [68.117.148.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CE5653A63D2 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:22:28 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 11942 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090106012229.CE5653A63D2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:22:28 -0800 (PST)
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From champman@platinuminternet.com Mon Jan 5 22:30:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 042173A6778; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.317 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.317 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RzDZyME6Yvzy; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-68-193-240.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-68-193-240.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.68.193.240]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EA51D3A67C0; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:29:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: From: "Elaine Dubois" Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:28:52 -0500 Subject: Patek Phillipe watch models from 2009! To: atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Elaine, New Year is the time to get Breitling watch, and the only place to get top notch watches that look and perform exactly like the originals is http://www.maypad.com/ Take an extra 15% off your purchase during month of January (2009). http://www.maypad.com/ Our Breitling have all appropriate markings, wordings and engravings same as orginal. Sincerely, Mr Dubois From kawasaki@aig.co.jp Tue Jan 6 01:41:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E983A6918 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 01:41:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.983 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=38.567, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sUvVD1j8mnNz for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 01:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 85-250-233-242.bb.netvision.net.il (85-250-233-242.bb.netvision.net.il [85.250.233.242]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B3A63A6928 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 01:41:46 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 29430 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20090106094148.0B3A63A6928@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 01:41:46 -0800 (PST) podmena traffica test From jester@airstreamcomm.net Tue Jan 6 09:58:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CDB43A6892 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:58:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -61.57 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-61.57 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sg+TpNG2myWL for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from 165.243.100-84.rev.gaoland.net (165.243.100-84.rev.gaoland.net [84.100.243.165]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id F08B03A63D2 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:58:31 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 63874 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090106175831.F08B03A63D2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:58:31 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 6 15:11:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F13583A681D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:11:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DRUGS_MUSCLE=0.01, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XWidjyVmKvY0 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74C43A67EE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:11:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n06N1vjK032853 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:01:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n06N1vfa032852; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:01:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e8.ny.us.ibm.com (e8.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.138]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n06N1kcQ032835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:01:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rsalz@us.ibm.com) Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e8.ny.us.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n06Mu5e8017647 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:56:05 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.1) with ESMTP id n06N1jSg135946 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:01:45 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n06N1iZi010177 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:01:44 -0500 Received: from D27ML602.RCHLAND.IBM.COM (d27ml602.rchland.ibm.com [9.10.229.17]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n06N1gX9009957 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:01:43 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Is atom:content *the* place to put content? X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Richard Salz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:01:41 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on d27ml602/27/M/IBM(Release 8.0.2|August 07, 2008) at 01/06/2009 05:01:43 PM, Serialize complete at 01/06/2009 05:01:43 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Happy New Year. I want to add content to an atom:entry, but it's intended for use by computers not humans. I know atom:content can hold arbitrary XML, but I'm not sure if I should use that or if I should put it as a direct child of the atom:entry element. I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. Also, since it's Language-Sensitive, I have a slight concern about someone translating machine field names and the like. There's a (slight) chance that the content could from different components, which is why I prefer inserting elements into atom:entry instead of "rewriting" atom:content. I don't have any justficiation for that other than "gut feel" however. I want to be able to associate a schema with the data (see http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/soma), and using atom:entry seems cleaner. But it's a small matter to say the schema link relation is scoped to the atom:entry atomInlineOtherContent type. So, what should I do? /r$ -- Visiting Member, IBM Academy STSM, DataPower Chief Programmer WebSphere DataPower SOA Appliances http://www.ibm.com/software/integration/datapower/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 6 15:20:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46553A69CA for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:20:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DRUGS_MUSCLE=0.01, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTRTkxmoiKRb for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85753A6824 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n06NEM8K033591 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:14:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n06NEMOQ033590; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:14:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.169]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n06NEBFr033582 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:14:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so8082725wfc.28 for ; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.224.5 with SMTP id w5mr848199wfg.206.1231283650519; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.64.79? ([204.9.180.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm1567875wfi.27.2009.01.06.15.14.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:14:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4963E5C1.90006@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:14:09 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Richard Salz wrote: > Happy New Year. > > I want to add content to an atom:entry, but it's intended for use by > computers not humans. I know atom:content can hold arbitrary XML, but I'm > not sure if I should use that or if I should put it as a direct child of > the atom:entry element. > > I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. Also, > since it's Language-Sensitive, I have a slight concern about someone > translating machine field names and the like. There's a (slight) chance > that the content could from different components, which is why I prefer > inserting elements into atom:entry instead of "rewriting" atom:content. I > don't have any justficiation for that other than "gut feel" however. > > I want to be able to associate a schema with the data (see > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/soma), and using atom:entry > seems cleaner. But it's a small matter to say the schema link relation is > scoped to the atom:entry atomInlineOtherContent type. > In practice, you don't want to put anything other than HTML in atom:content if you intend this feed to be consumed by general Atom processors and aggregators. Many aggregators (and feed re-publishers) will misbehave with anything other than and escaped content. You can add arbitrary XML elements as children of atom:entry, and use xml:lang to define what human language is within. Of course, if you intend this feed to only ever be consumed by your own software it doesn't really matter what you do as long as your producer and your consumer agree. If you are able to give more details about specifically what you are trying to do folks might be able to suggest a way to do it that does not involve extending Atom at all, at least at the XML level. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 6 16:27:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908193A68CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.694 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.694 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.905, BAYES_00=-2.599, DRUGS_MUSCLE=0.01, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M7TycqeN8POb for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655753A6828 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n070K7rZ036199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:20:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n070K6sB036198; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:20:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.154]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n070JtEO036179 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:20:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so3940610ywr.4 for ; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:19:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hVcD2zm/TZ8EMEAzI+s88WuY95zFlasWsReByBgrCGE=; b=r/Uly3PiXJQ/7pGOShLtgHuCSefKM0/+7nKhwO59CTOpOiecPJplis2c1tihb84eND 2vwXEfvC4KQFVCWcRvWg+tgZao64EXajl3ONU3NBdcuKaoXT2Bt8dDY6h3Ozfb2AowU3 /0wWxCVy8XbAm7MP04C2WqTSrXSdbdv6krMLM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=B905zwuC2HiqXGd2Jw30k2yudFVzMe+qTjpys+iuxWNDSWHt5UvR++ARUCXIjI6gfJ iLbqN7okXW11PTIYR38ypw1gsKmaEWEierjF64Aps+d4PDmiXceUk3R1nYxqJaC/WWpF 46w5BqApfWGzl/r1i9a43iOeuGicVT+MmKHpg= Received: by 10.100.108.9 with SMTP id g9mr12088819anc.137.1231287594970; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.2.100? (c-98-224-93-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c28sm29172304anc.47.2009.01.06.16.19.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:19:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4963F52A.70900@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:19:54 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Atkins CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content? References: <4963E5C1.90006@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4963E5C1.90006@degeneration.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: One thing that needs to be kept in mind... and that feed reader developers need to make sure they're handling properly... is that Atom intentionally provides two locations for human readable content: atom:content and atom:summary. If the atom:content element does not contain readily displayable content (like HTML), then the atom:summary element should be used to provide some kind of displayable approximation. - James Martin Atkins wrote: > > Richard Salz wrote: >> Happy New Year. >> >> I want to add content to an atom:entry, but it's intended for use by >> computers not humans. I know atom:content can hold arbitrary XML, but >> I'm not sure if I should use that or if I should put it as a direct >> child of the atom:entry element. >> >> I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. >> Also, since it's Language-Sensitive, I have a slight concern about >> someone translating machine field names and the like. There's a >> (slight) chance that the content could from different components, >> which is why I prefer inserting elements into atom:entry instead of >> "rewriting" atom:content. I don't have any justficiation for that >> other than "gut feel" however. >> >> I want to be able to associate a schema with the data (see >> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/soma), and using >> atom:entry seems cleaner. But it's a small matter to say the schema >> link relation is scoped to the atom:entry atomInlineOtherContent type. >> > > In practice, you don't want to put anything other than HTML in > atom:content if you intend this feed to be consumed by general Atom > processors and aggregators. Many aggregators (and feed re-publishers) > will misbehave with anything other than and > escaped content. > > You can add arbitrary XML elements as children of atom:entry, and use > xml:lang to define what human language is within. > > Of course, if you intend this feed to only ever be consumed by your > own software it doesn't really matter what you do as long as your > producer and your consumer agree. > > If you are able to give more details about specifically what you are > trying to do folks might be able to suggest a way to do it that does > not involve extending Atom at all, at least at the XML level. > > From atompson@perseushouse.org Wed Jan 7 03:03:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DEF83A68F4 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 03:03:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -51.891 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-51.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HOST_EQ_CPE=0.979, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1.449, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_UN7=0.917, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8vJi32i-I3yb for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 03:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lyris.scrippsnetworksnewsletters.com (cpe-72-231-7-87.nyc.res.rr.com [72.231.7.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 09B443A6829 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 03:03:37 -0800 (PST) List-Unsubscribe: Message-ID: DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=2008; d=foodnewsletters.com; h=from; b=wNN6nk6fUAGUBAbIUP3lKlCgqk5zVmTQVMeARFqChiuGcWxbK/emIzfSwyaXzzoru5ZTgJOA 0MO07yoDA9ZEHw== From: "Online Viagra" To: atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: frfax atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Your lady wants your hose mdwy Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 06:03:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Food Network Newsletter
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jan 7 03:14:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC4428C12A for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 03:14:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pwVA9dJPTo4t for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 03:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B403A6899 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 03:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07B5euM066737 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 04:05:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07B5eVb066736; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 04:05:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n07B5So0066702 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 04:05:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Jan 2009 11:05:27 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp065) with SMTP; 07 Jan 2009 12:05:27 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19dnG9aAtxdeFsu/4pF4Ql/KlTBKfOOTK50I01qEv WSXPWPsKFOUex6 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:05:25 +0100 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content? Message-ID: <20090107110525.GA5733@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.72 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Richard Salz [2009-01-07 00:15]: > I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. Atom makes no constraint that the content be human-readable. That was in fact one of the goals differentiating it from RSS: the ability to carry content other than plaintext or HTML. If you want the feed to also be human-consumable, provide a reasonable facsimile of the context in text or HTML form in the summary. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jan 7 12:21:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243E93A6974 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:21:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.989, BAYES_40=-0.185, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xXCn-lfjidaq for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7EB3A6945 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07KDmjR098540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:13:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07KDmag098539; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:13:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s15.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s15.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.215]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07KDlXI098531 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:13:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.23]) by bay0-omc3-s15.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:13:47 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:13:46 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.25.114 by BAY141-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:13:46 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.25.114] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <4963E5C1.90006@degeneration.co.uk> <4963F52A.70900@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content? Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 20:13:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jan 2009 20:13:46.0857 (UTC) FILETIME=[72523D90:01C97104] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James Snell wrote: > One thing that needs to be kept in mind... and that feed reader developers > need to make sure they're handling properly... is that Atom intentionally > provides two locations for human readable content: atom:content and > atom:summary. If the atom:content element does not contain readily > displayable content (like HTML), then the atom:summary element should be > used to provide some kind of displayable approximation. But feed producers also need to bare in mind that the summary element is not the place for alternate representations (in the sense of multipart/alternate). You don't put an XML document format in the content and then an alternate HTML version in the summary. Nor do you but a image format in the content an HTML img thumbnail in the summary (I'm looking at you, Picasa). The summary should be a short, human-readable, text abstract or excerpt. Regards James From niuhul@alsde.edu Thu Jan 8 03:11:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7735F3A687C for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 03:11:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -19.591 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-19.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wcxy4jlRg47T for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 03:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from fl-67-76-212-82.sta.embarqhsd.net (fl-67-76-212-82.sta.embarqhsd.net [67.76.212.82]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C43F13A677C for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 03:10:59 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 13695 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090108111059.C43F13A677C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 03:10:59 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 08:46:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679FF3A6859 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:46:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o3jzKswRY3NK for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BC23A68E0 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08GbOrh057583 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:37:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08GbO0X057582; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:37:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08GbDKA057562 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:37:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dareo@microsoft.com) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:37:06 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.108.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:37:06 -0800 From: Dare Obasanjo To: Martin Atkins , Atom Syntax Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:37:03 -0800 Subject: RE: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Thread-Topic: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Thread-Index: Aclsc9piZpMHYWqQRWurjzJ5/lXU1AFO10cA Message-ID: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586A774AD0@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Quick question, who are the members of this "small group" and what is the p= rocess for getting changes/updates to the spec? -- THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #110 I will not employ devious schemes that involve the hero's party getting int= o my inner sanctum before the trap is sprung -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org= ] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:38 PM To: Atom Syntax Subject: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Hi folks, A small group of which I'm a member has been working on a specification for describing activities as Atom entries. An "activity" for our purposes is an action a user has taken on a social website, such as posting a photo or marking it as a favorite. The draft we have so far is here: http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity In the process of working this through, we discovered a number of other problems that we believe require Atom extensions to solve, so we've also got drafts of a number of peripheral specifications. As Sam Ruby posted earlier in the month[1], one issue encountered was the lack of a standard way to publish media items such as photos and videos in Atom. While a couple of publishers (notably Google properties) use the elements from MediaRSS for this purpose, the few implementations I found were inconsistent. It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped media specification might be useful, so we drafted up this: http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia We also have a small specification for describing the "service provider" that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is intended to be similar in design to atom:author. http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider Finally, we have a small extension to Atom Threading Extensions to allow some metadata about the parent entry to be included in the child so that consumers can avoid fetching source feeds in certain cases. This is intended to be similar in principle to atom:source http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/commentmeta I'm well aware that these drafts need plenty more editorial work, and may need more detail in certain spots, but since some folks are ready to start implementing based on these drafts I wanted to throw them out here to get a few more eyes on them, so that if there are any major problems with the technical direction we're taking we might fix them before there are too many implementations to change. I would appreciate it if folks here would cast a critical eye over what we're proposing and let me know if you see fundamental flaws in our approach to any of these problems. We will of course continue to refine these documents and hopefully we would be able to bring some or all of them over here and work on them with the wider Atom community. Thanks, Martin ----------------------------------------- [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20818.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 10:38:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3492C3A688F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:38:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.694 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.694 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.905, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LRC4nxzeXfXs for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:38:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDFB23A63D3 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08IOVuX064758 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:24:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08IOVCc064757; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:24:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.173]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08IOKGo064746 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:24:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so9099768wfc.28 for ; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.254.8 with SMTP id b8mr10287708wfi.144.1231439059789; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.64.79? ([204.9.180.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 30sm51267352wfd.24.2009.01.08.10.24.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:24:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496644D2.6010102@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:24:18 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586A774AD0@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586A774AD0@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Dare Obasanjo wrote: > Quick question, who are the members of this "small group" and what is the process for getting changes/updates to the spec? > The small group is working in a Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams As far as the process for changes, just let me know what you think needs changing either here or in that group; I'm be happy to receive feedback. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 10:57:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFEE3A6922 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:57:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qE7sxCY0DmEq for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90F43A68A2 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08IfJPF065726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:41:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08IfJoT065725; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:41:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08If8s8065705 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:41:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n08If80a010249 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:41:08 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KD500801ZRJ9B00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:41:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (d207-216-166-138.bchsia.telus.net [207.216.166.138]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KD600F1O18DGU70@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:41:02 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:40:58 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content? In-reply-to: To: Richard Salz Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <3BE3DD6D-8263-4957-8AFB-77F235E7F871@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Content-type: text/plain; delsp=yes; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Richard Salz wrote: > I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. I don't think the spec, either explicitly or implicitly, says that atom:content ought necessarily to be human-readable. It does give specific guidance on what to do when it's not (provide some guidance in atom:summary). I suspect that mainstream consumer feed-readers are smart enough to simply bypass atom:content if it's in a format they don't understand. So my instinct would be to use atom:content -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 11:08:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AC23A6ACE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:08:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VESmmMmu9yum for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5AF28C0E5 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:08:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08IxpOX066686 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:59:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08IxpZ8066685; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:59:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08IxfFD066667 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:59:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (83-70-161-191-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.161.191]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBCDDD0FB for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:59:39 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <49664D19.4050303@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:59:37 +0000 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <495EA106.8010009@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James Holderness wrote: > > Martin Atkins: >> I'm also not sure if this sort of thing matters. For what it's worth, >> I did also consider using atom:name, the child of atom:author for this >> purpose, since we're really talking about the name of the provider >> rather than its title. > > If I had to choose, I'd say atom:name was more appropriate. Your usage > seems pretty close to the RFC4287 definition. > >> However, I could rewrite it to use custom elements if folks think >> extending the reach of these Atom elements is wrong. This is from the atomactivity-00 spec: [[[ tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01 Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:photo01 My Cat 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo Geraldine's Photos <p>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</p> <img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"> ]]] I see the following duplication: 1: atom:id, activity:id 2: atom:title, activity:title 3: atom:published, activity:published 4: atom:link@rel=alternate, activity:link@rel=alternate 5: atom:souce, activity:source 1,2,4,5 I think are duplicates, 3 depends on what activity:published means. But on reading through the spec, I see that "5.5. The activity:object Extension Element" is saying to use atom:* elements. So I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix by throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations: [[[ tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01 Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:photo01 My Cat</atom:title> <published>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</atom:published> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="/geraldine/photos/1" /> <source> <title>Geraldine's Photos <p>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</p> <img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"> ]]] It's clear to me this needs refactoring. As a strawman let me suggest: [[[ tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01 Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z <p>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</p> <img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"> 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post ]]] - I don't think you need an activity-object if you use atom:entry, but I suspect it would be the top level element in a dedicated format) - I think you need activity:when to keep event times distinct from publishing/update times, so I added it. - I suspect activity:type could be a machine tag and therefor using atom:category with a scheme could be an option. This would allow a useful extension point. - If this was an IETF standards track, I would suggest an IANA registry for activity:verbs. I think the of an activity entry format outside any one silo has legs and is a good idea, but I expect some objections and a need for hard graft to get it done. In no way do I think this is slam dunk as Sam suggests in his weblog [1]. Some reasons why: - How this aligns with the OpenSocial activity format needs to be squared up (and technically as well as you can get more bang for the byte with that format) http://code.google.com/intl/fr/apis/opensocial/docs/0.7/reference/opensocial.Activity.html - There is repetition of data - practically speaking there are a lot more activity events than blog posts, I'd guess easily one order of magnitude, probably two. Having a uniform means of serving them will result in more events, maybe getting us to three orders. I imagine we'll see claims the web will collapse under the weight. - Having duplicate places to put data will easily confuse publishers, as will clients be confused by data acquisition from parent elements. This is just how things are with XML modelling. - As a simple specification example, MUST requirements for foreign markup extensions as this draft needs are a problem (this is why AtomPub cannot mandate the "app:edited" element). What I would do next: 1 write down the anatomy of a well formed activity entry[2], and get buyin on that. 2 re-examine commonality of its elements with Atom 3 make a decision to re-use Atom format elements or embed an activity inside it. An example of the former approach is GData, an example of the latter is OpenSocial. The latter is very important and is about technical and social tradeoffs - ime reusing Atom as a base in this way tends to make more sense as you have more and more formats and they start to look less and less like precious snowflakes and more like snow. By analogy, microformats all base off XHTML, but RDFa chooses to embed within XHTML [3]. Bill [1] http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/01/08/Atom-Media-Extensions-for-Activity-Streams [2] imvho: involves describing where, what, when, who, why [3] as a datapoint, the Atom WG did not reuse Dublin Core's elements, we chose to mint our own, mainly because they could not be redefined outside the spec (Atom's stability around versioning requires this). From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 11:15:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0721728C0E8 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:15:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GeOQfFSO+lBj for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22BF28C0E7 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08J8Cl3067162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:08:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08J8CDu067160; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:08:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08J8BD3067154 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:08:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (83-70-161-191-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.161.191]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7568DD19E for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:08:10 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <49664F18.7010301@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:08:08 +0000 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content? References: <20090107110525.GA5733@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> In-Reply-To: <20090107110525.GA5733@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > * Richard Salz [2009-01-07 00:15]: >> I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. > > Atom makes no constraint that the content be human-readable. That > was in fact one of the goals differentiating it from RSS: the > ability to carry content other than plaintext or HTML. > > If you want the feed to also be human-consumable, provide a > reasonable facsimile of the context in text or HTML form in the > summary. What Aristotle said. Formally speaking, atom:content isn't a Text construct and so doesn't imply its human readable intent. Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 11:17:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D5828C0E7 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:17:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.700, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JDSIwc5e-eow for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45B83A67B6 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08J9uLX067266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:09:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08J9uT1067265; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:09:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08J9tXC067259 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:09:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (83-70-161-191-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.161.191]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E8EDD023 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:09:55 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <49664F80.8040602@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:09:52 +0000 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <495EA106.8010009@degeneration.co.uk> <49664D19.4050303@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <49664D19.4050303@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Bill de hOra wrote: > I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix by > throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations: > > [[[ > xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" > > ]]] > > [...] > [[[ > ]]] Argh. Both should be xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 11:52:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4883A6940 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:52:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.647, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ffNoZvGCeW0H for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9513A67B6 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08Jgj61068829 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:42:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08Jgj27068828; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:42:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.156]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08JgYou068811 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:42:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so4286450ywr.4 for ; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.253.21 with SMTP id a21mr10307825wfi.174.1231443752654; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.64.79? ([204.9.180.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 32sm19321500wfa.40.2009.01.08.11.42.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:42:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <49665726.8090506@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:42:30 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <495EA106.8010009@degeneration.co.uk> <49664D19.4050303@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <49664D19.4050303@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Bill de hOra wrote: > > This is from the atomactivity-00 spec: > > [[[ > > tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01 > Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic > 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z > href="/geraldine/activities/1" /> > > http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post > > > tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:photo01 > My Cat > 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z > href="/geraldine/photos/1" /> > > tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo > > > Geraldine's Photos > href="/geraldine/photofeed.xml" /> > href="/geraldine/" /> > > > > <p>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</p> > <img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"> > > > ]]] > > I see the following duplication: > > 1: atom:id, activity:id > 2: atom:title, activity:title > 3: atom:published, activity:published > 4: atom:link@rel=alternate, activity:link@rel=alternate > 5: atom:souce, activity:source > > 1,2,4,5 I think are duplicates, 3 depends on what activity:published > means. But on reading through the spec, I see that "5.5. The > activity:object Extension Element" is saying to use atom:* elements. So > I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix by > throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations: Note that the top-level entry here represents the activity or action, while the content of activity:object (which is also an Atom Entry in all but name) represents the object of the activity. Therefore these are in fact not duplicates. The entry-level atom:title is a human-readable description of the activity ("Geraldine posted ...") while the activity:object atom:title is the title of what Geraldine posted, which in this case is a photo with the title "My Cat". > > It's clear to me this needs refactoring. As a strawman let me suggest: > > > [[[ > xmlns:activity="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/" > xml:base="http://example.org/activities" > > tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01 > Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic > 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z > type="text/html" > href="/geraldine/activities/1" /> > type="text/html" > href="/geraldine/photos/1" /> > > <p>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</p> > <img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"> > > 2008-11-02T15:29:00Z > > tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo > > > http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post > > > ]]] > This is very similar to the "implied activity" shorthand syntax described later in the spec, which is in fact what we expect most publishers to generate. The full-blown activity entries are intended to be posted by publishers such as FriendFeed and Plaxo whose entries represent actions rather than simply lists of objects. You are correct that in this case there is ambiguity for a few elements: * If the verb is something other than "post", atom:published becomes the activity time rather than the published time. The definition of the "post" verb means that for that verb the activity time and the publication time are always the same, since it was not published until it was posted. * atom:author becomes the activity actor rather than the author of the object. Again, in the "post" case these are the same, but for other verbs they are not necessarily the same. Unfortunately existing practice constrains the solution here; for example, YouTube's "favorite" feeds have atom:author set to the user that owns the feed, not the user who authored the video. Therefore the spec currently says that the author belongs to the activity, not to the object. I think I've addressed many of your points above, so I'll just respond to those I haven't yet: > > - I suspect activity:type could be a machine tag and therefor using > atom:category with a scheme could be an option. This would allow a > useful extension point. > I did actually already get feedback in favor of machine tags, but they made me wary for two reasons: * They are not yet widely known or adopted, as far as I can tell. * (and this point relates to the use of atom:category in general) many existing aggregators display to the user all categories regardless of scheme, and a design goal of this specification is for the new annotations to cause no visible difference in legacy software, so that there will be less resistance to adoption. > - If this was an IETF standards track, I would suggest an IANA registry > for activity:verbs. > Do you intend the IANA registry to replace the use of URIs as the extension mechanism with simple keywords? This is certainly something that could be considered. > > I think the of an activity entry format outside any one silo has legs > and is a good idea, but I expect some objections and a need for hard > graft to get it done. In no way do I think this is slam dunk as Sam > suggests in his weblog [1]. Some reasons why: > > - How this aligns with the OpenSocial activity format needs to be > squared up (and technically as well as you can get more bang for the > byte with that format) > > http://code.google.com/intl/fr/apis/opensocial/docs/0.7/reference/opensocial.Activity.html > In discussions with OpenSocial folks we got the impression that they would consider using an Atom-based format for activities. I used their schema as one of my research sources for this specification. Right now the main "inspiration" for this spec are the syndication-based activity aggregators such as FriendFeed, Plaxo, Movable Type Action Streams, etc, but I agree that it is important to align with OpenSocial too. > > - There is repetition of data - practically speaking there are a lot > more activity events than blog posts, I'd guess easily one order of > magnitude, probably two. Having a uniform means of serving them will > result in more events, maybe getting us to three orders. I imagine we'll > see claims the web will collapse under the weight. The "implied activity" shorthand is intended to address this. In the weblog case, one needs only to add a single element to each entry to mark it up as a weblog entry: http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/blog-entry/ though of course in practice many activity consumers are likely to present an un-annotated entry much like a weblog entry because that's what they do today. The work for things such as photos and videos is slightly more since some providers would need to add thumbnail links and so forth, but it was a very strong requirement that existing feeds would require only minimal changes -- and, in most cases, only additions -- to hit the important use-cases for this spec. > - Having duplicate places to put data will easily confuse publishers, as > will clients be confused by data acquisition from parent elements. This > is just how things are with XML modelling. The most important feedback I've taken from this is that the spec should be re-organised to emphasise the implied activity shorthand rather than starting with the full "activity entry" case, since I expect only activity aggregator services to publish the latter, and indeed the motivation for this separation is that these publishers already have feeds that represent activities rather than objects. Thanks for the very detailed feedback. Six Apart is hosting a meet-up regarding activity streams publishing this afternoon[1] where we can take a look at the feedback we've recieved. Cheers, Martin [1] http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/1470821/ (Folks are welcome to come, though I realise this is late notice for those who are only just finding out about it now.) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 13:14:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEA43A6A70 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:14:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x5X2ZzizybL2 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831873A6936 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08Kx9Ts072627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:59:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08Kx9xe072626; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:59:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08Kww9G072613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:59:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dareo@microsoft.com) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.86.9) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:58:58 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.108.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.86.9]) with mapi; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:58:57 -0800 From: Dare Obasanjo To: Martin Atkins , Atom Syntax Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:58:55 -0800 Subject: RE: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Thread-Topic: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Thread-Index: AclxwPLRiv4P/WTxSRyQv3+peyecvAAEuY5g Message-ID: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586ABDED5F@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586A774AD0@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496644D2.6010102@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <496644D2.6010102@degeneration.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Thanks for opening up the archives for that group. I'll take a detailed loo= k at the spec this weekend and send some feedback.=20 -- THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139 If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then enc= ounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just t= o be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send= out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org= ] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:24 AM To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Dare Obasanjo wrote: > Quick question, who are the members of this "small group" and what is the= process for getting changes/updates to the spec? > The small group is working in a Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams As far as the process for changes, just let me know what you think needs changing either here or in that group; I'm be happy to receive feedback. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 15:20:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0343A67FD for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:20:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.605 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.464, BAYES_20=-0.74, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mYaYIn5UJ5wX for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:20:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724013A67A3 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:20:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08NDkFC078670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:13:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08NDkaq078669; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:13:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s23.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s23.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.159]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08NDa6q078660 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:13:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.14]) by bay0-omc2-s23.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:13:36 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:13:35 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.25.114 by BAY141-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:13:31 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.25.114] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <3BE3DD6D-8263-4957-8AFB-77F235E7F871@sun.com> Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content? Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:13:31 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2009 23:13:35.0496 (UTC) FILETIME=[BB43A880:01C971E6] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Tim Bray wrote: > I suspect that mainstream consumer feed-readers are smart enough to > simply bypass atom:content if it's in a format they don't understand. I guess it depends on your definition of mainstream. Google Reader? Bloglines? My Yahoo? As Martin said, there are still many feed-readers that don't deal very well with content that isn't HTML. And it's not the sort of bug that's a high priority to fix since, by definition, it only applies to feeds whose content you can't view anyway. Not many users are going to be that excited about being able to subscribe to a summary of your content. Bottom line: if you have content that can be rendered as HTML, and you want real people to subscribe to your feed, you'd be unwise to use anything other than HTML in the content element. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 16:17:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6BF28C0EB for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:17:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s6OEWEcrfQNQ for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E452C3A6836 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n090AOnq081194 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:10:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n090AOvh081193; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:10:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n090ADMH081171 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:10:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (83-70-161-191-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.161.191]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AEADDA61 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 00:10:12 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <496695E2.3080900@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:10:10 +0000 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <495EA106.8010009@degeneration.co.uk> <49664D19.4050303@dehora.net> <49665726.8090506@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <49665726.8090506@degeneration.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Martin Atkins wrote: > > Bill de hOra wrote: >> 1,2,4,5 I think are duplicates, 3 depends on what activity:published >> means. But on reading through the spec, I see that "5.5. The >> activity:object Extension Element" is saying to use atom:* elements. >> So I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix by >> throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations: > > Note that the top-level entry here represents the activity or action, > while the content of activity:object (which is also an Atom Entry in all > but name) represents the object of the activity. > > Therefore these are in fact not duplicates. The entry-level atom:title > is a human-readable description of the activity ("Geraldine posted ...") > while the activity:object atom:title is the title of what Geraldine > posted, which in this case is a photo with the title "My Cat". - with that many elements there will be boilerplate data injected into one or the other. James has already mentioned this, and it is an age old problem with markup, one that predates XML and HTML. Given what I know about event formats in general and SN specific data like activities which I have to aggregate, I think you have too many tags, which leads me to... - ...volume. My rule of thumb is that each interesting thing that happens in a web system causes about 10 events and you should plan to scale accordingly. I believe social network activity to be like this. My guess is that verbosity of the proposal (which I don't normally care about) will be an adoption factor. And even if you are right about non-duplication, then there are still two arguments to be had, - rename all the activity elements so people are not confused about the purpose of the elements (I don't necessarily agree with this approach, but it's real) - either remove atom:source from activity:object or type qualify atom:source as being the source of the action and lift it up. I have a doubt you need both elements, unless there is a use case where an intermediary like friendfeed needs atom:source for something else. > You are correct that in this case there is ambiguity for a few elements: > > * If the verb is something other than "post", atom:published becomes the > activity time rather than the published time. The definition of the > "post" verb means that for that verb the activity time and the > publication time are always the same, since it was not published until > it was posted. > > * atom:author becomes the activity actor rather than the author of the > object. Again, in the "post" case these are the same, but for other > verbs they are not necessarily the same. Unfortunately existing practice > constrains the solution here; for example, YouTube's "favorite" feeds > have atom:author set to the user that owns the feed, not the user who > authored the video. Therefore the spec currently says that the author > belongs to the activity, not to the object. In markup-land, these are called co-occurence constraints. I would try to avoid them if possible :) >> - I suspect activity:type could be a machine tag and therefor using >> atom:category with a scheme could be an option. This would allow a >> useful extension point. >> > > I did actually already get feedback in favor of machine tags, but they > made me wary for two reasons: > * They are not yet widely known or adopted, as far as I can tell. > * (and this point relates to the use of atom:category in general) many > existing aggregators display to the user all categories regardless of > scheme, and a design goal of this specification is for the new > annotations to cause no visible difference in legacy software, so that > there will be less resistance to adoption. Makes sense to me. >> - If this was an IETF standards track, I would suggest an IANA >> registry for activity:verbs. >> > > Do you intend the IANA registry to replace the use of URIs as the > extension mechanism with simple keywords? No, just to act as social control as per the link registry. If these will be acting as switch-on-type controls in code rather than data to be rendered out, then I can't imagine verb proliferation being beneficial (what will happen is that the problem Dave Winer has identified with photo media and which Dare Obsanjo has explained will get pushed around rather than solved - activity:verb reminds me of soap:action in that sense). > Right now the main "inspiration" for this spec are the syndication-based > activity aggregators such as FriendFeed, Plaxo, Movable Type Action > Streams, etc, but I agree that it is important to align with OpenSocial > too. I work on aggregation for mobile systems, and while its not a format issue, I suspect the amount of data being served to describe the activity is high enough to impact services that are not flat-rated. Do the spec backers want to send that much data down to a handset? >> - There is repetition of data - practically speaking there are a lot >> more activity events than blog posts, I'd guess easily one order of >> magnitude, probably two. Having a uniform means of serving them will >> result in more events, maybe getting us to three orders. I imagine >> we'll see claims the web will collapse under the weight. > > The "implied activity" shorthand is intended to address this. In the > weblog case, one needs only to add a single element to each entry to > mark it up as a weblog entry: > > http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/blog-entry/ > > > though of course in practice many activity consumers are likely to > present an un-annotated entry much like a weblog entry because that's > what they do today. Right, and this approach is closer to how MediaRSS acts wrt to RSS/Atom, which leaves the door open for broadly consistent profiling of feed data down the line. > The work for things such as photos and videos is slightly more since > some providers would need to add thumbnail links and so forth, but it > was a very strong requirement that existing feeds would require only > minimal changes -- and, in most cases, only additions -- to hit the > important use-cases for this spec. I think this is more an abbreviated syntax than an implied activity and I'd strongly suggest you pick just one and spec it - keeping client and server dev work to a minimum ups the chance of adoption. [Having an abbreviated syntax without question damaged RDF/XML]. >> - Having duplicate places to put data will easily confuse publishers, >> as will clients be confused by data acquisition from parent elements. >> This is just how things are with XML modelling. > > The most important feedback I've taken from this is that the spec should > be re-organised to emphasise the implied activity shorthand rather than > starting with the full "activity entry" case, since I expect only > activity aggregator services to publish the latter, and indeed the > motivation for this separation is that these publishers already have > feeds that represent activities rather than objects. That and the fact that everyone who uses this spec will have to think about where to put the data instead of being able to guess right. Reduce that burden! > Thanks for the very detailed feedback. Six Apart is hosting a meet-up > regarding activity streams publishing this afternoon[1] where we can > take a look at the feedback we've recieved. Good luck with it. Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 8 23:58:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D473C3A65A5 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:58:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.350, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7yrSp5KK53cN for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039763A67A1 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n097gWs2098140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 9 Jan 2009 00:42:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n097gWn7098139; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 00:42:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n097gLu1098132 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 00:42:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dareo@microsoft.com) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:42:14 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.108.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:42:14 -0800 From: Dare Obasanjo To: Martin Atkins , Atom Syntax Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:42:10 -0800 Subject: RE: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Thread-Topic: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Thread-Index: Aclsc9piZpMHYWqQRWurjzJ5/lXU1AFscF5A Message-ID: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586ABDF070@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Comments on each doc 1.) http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia - This spec describes a bunch of elements but not how they are supposed to= be used. I'm especially confused about atom:link with rel=3D"preview". Wha= t is it a preview of? The example in the spec has a single preview (pic) an= d two enclosures (also pictures). How is that expected to be treated? I'd e= xpect there to be a 1:1 mapping between enclosures and previews but there d= oesn't seem to be any such rule in the spec. 2.) http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity - Verbs seem to be poorly defined and unnecessary. It seems they are eithe= r a way to categorize items in a feed (i.e. use atom:category) or a way to = point to an end point where an action can be taken (i.e. use rel=3D"verbnam= e" the same way AtomPub has rel=3D"edit". - The list of base object types is missing update types that are common on= social networking sites such as relationships ('Dare is a friend of Rob', = 'Dare is a fan of Metallica'), profile changes ('Dare is now married', 'Dar= e has updated his occupation to cubicle dweller') and even reviews ('Dare r= ates the Zombies application ** out of *****) 3.) http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity - As I mentioned above, I can't see why an extension element is needed for = activity:verb instead of atom:category or link@rel=3D"post|markfavorite" - activity:object just seems super weird. It is effectively an atom:entry e= mbedded inside the atom:entry. This seems like a significant amount of dupl= ication of data and a recipe for lots of confusion by feed consumers and pr= oducers. Almost every element that is a child of the activity:object seems = redundant to the same elements that are children of the parent atom:entry. = There needs to be more explanation of this design so it can be properly und= erstood. I can imagine some simple scenarios where the activity:object may = seem to help but it breaks down really quickly - activity:object-type should either be an attribute/element of activity:ob= ject or even better a machine readable atom:category. These are just quick impressions based on my experiences in this space. I'l= l try to go over the specs in more detail later. -- THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139 If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then enc= ounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just t= o be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send= out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org= ] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:38 PM To: Atom Syntax Subject: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Hi folks, A small group of which I'm a member has been working on a specification for describing activities as Atom entries. An "activity" for our purposes is an action a user has taken on a social website, such as posting a photo or marking it as a favorite. The draft we have so far is here: http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity In the process of working this through, we discovered a number of other problems that we believe require Atom extensions to solve, so we've also got drafts of a number of peripheral specifications. As Sam Ruby posted earlier in the month[1], one issue encountered was the lack of a standard way to publish media items such as photos and videos in Atom. While a couple of publishers (notably Google properties) use the elements from MediaRSS for this purpose, the few implementations I found were inconsistent. It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped media specification might be useful, so we drafted up this: http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia We also have a small specification for describing the "service provider" that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is intended to be similar in design to atom:author. http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider Finally, we have a small extension to Atom Threading Extensions to allow some metadata about the parent entry to be included in the child so that consumers can avoid fetching source feeds in certain cases. This is intended to be similar in principle to atom:source http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/commentmeta I'm well aware that these drafts need plenty more editorial work, and may need more detail in certain spots, but since some folks are ready to start implementing based on these drafts I wanted to throw them out here to get a few more eyes on them, so that if there are any major problems with the technical direction we're taking we might fix them before there are too many implementations to change. I would appreciate it if folks here would cast a critical eye over what we're proposing and let me know if you see fundamental flaws in our approach to any of these problems. We will of course continue to refine these documents and hopefully we would be able to bring some or all of them over here and work on them with the wider Atom community. Thanks, Martin ----------------------------------------- [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20818.html From mariospizzo@alice.it Fri Jan 9 02:10:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A763A68CB for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 02:10:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.372 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.372 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qdssH7flUMWn for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 02:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 82-131-153-59.pool.invitel.hu (82-131-153-59.pool.invitel.hu [82.131.153.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3CEDF3A67BD for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 02:10:28 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Order status 29400 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090109101030.3CEDF3A67BD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 02:10:28 -0800 (PST)
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From nestorov@allwebsales.be Fri Jan 9 16:17:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896B228C179 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:17:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.116 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yG9jQ9fD422c for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:17:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-71-171-98-76.clppva.fios.verizon.net (pool-71-171-98-76.clppva.fios.verizon.net [71.171.98.76]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AA5428C171 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:17:02 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 21382 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090110001704.0AA5428C171@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:17:02 -0800 (PST)
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From ooley@adcweb.net Sat Jan 10 02:51:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7962528C0DC for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:51:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -30.125 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-30.125 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wOCQlb8I-S0U for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bl10-176-232.dsl.telepac.pt (bl10-239-98.dsl.telepac.pt [85.243.239.98]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 70AAE28C0D6 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:51:14 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 09125 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090110105115.70AAE28C0D6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:51:14 -0800 (PST)
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From jimenez@alldisk.com Sat Jan 10 04:12:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5BEB3A6806 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:12:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.259 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.259 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VLRChbSic6tK for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:12:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-68-67-187.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-68-67-187.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.68.67.187]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD8243A68BB for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:12:41 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Order status 21223 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000779-0, 08/10/2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20090110121241.BD8243A68BB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:12:41 -0800 (PST)
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From ky@amoje.com Sat Jan 10 05:38:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B200728C1B8 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 05:38:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.017 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.017 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lREX-qN-FePG for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 05:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-074-251-133-101.sip.asm.bellsouth.net (adsl-074-251-133-101.sip.asm.bellsouth.net [74.251.133.101]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D8A7228C1B9 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 05:38:38 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 77790 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090110133838.D8A7228C1B9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 05:38:38 -0800 (PST)
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From joseph_duenas@amat.com Sat Jan 10 06:10:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCE83A6904 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:10:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.259 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.259 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y7mF5rd0Cvlx for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:10:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-95-58-238.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-95-58-238.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.95.58.238]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 226F93A68DF for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:10:55 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 52199 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090110141056.226F93A68DF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:10:55 -0800 (PST)
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From n-tominaga@ahschreiber.com Sat Jan 10 07:40:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA263A6912 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:40:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -37.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-37.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 572EbqGTCnIk for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from spkfree.cust.sloane.cz (spkfree.cust.sloane.cz [88.146.176.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5216A3A69B6 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:40:17 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 18789 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090110154018.5216A3A69B6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:40:17 -0800 (PST)

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From lori.mcneill@amo.com Sat Jan 10 07:47:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CD83A69D8 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:47:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -31.943 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-31.943 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIJ0zgOfK-xN for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-ull-11-188.50-151.net24.it (adsl-ull-11-188.50-151.net24.it [151.50.188.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6925B3A69B6 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:47:49 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 60577 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090110154751.6925B3A69B6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:47:49 -0800 (PST)

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From judithr@aliroo.com Sat Jan 10 07:56:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF32F3A6912 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:56:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -27.083 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-27.083 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QMn7+mZVhEJX for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-141-157-115-81.balt.east.verizon.net (pool-141-157-115-81.balt.east.verizon.net [141.157.115.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 47AF93A6908 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:56:52 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 68380 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090110155653.47AF93A6908@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:56:52 -0800 (PST)
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From jerret.turner@afbudsys.disa.mil Sat Jan 10 09:54:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291EC3A6B29 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:54:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.422 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QMK8uPq26Gtq for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from 4dcsi.com (unknown [190.77.230.200]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BC5DE3A68C8 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:54:03 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 44166 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090110175404.BC5DE3A68C8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:54:03 -0800 (PST)
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From ola.rizzo@agexpront.org.gt Sun Jan 11 02:43:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A8528C10F for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:43:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.762 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.762 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_HELO_EQ_DSL_3=1.022, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6cILHHZsnTKa for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-emcali-190.99.255.215.emcali.net.co (dsl-emcali-190.99.255.215.emcali.net.co [190.99.255.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BA78D28C100 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:43:41 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 82366 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090111104341.BA78D28C100@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:43:41 -0800 (PST)

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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 11 13:05:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77773A68CC for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:05:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eenVcNRKCLOu for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B28A3A67DB for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BKuNGU066116 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:56:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BKuNms066115; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:56:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.244]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BKuC6T066103 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:56:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so11736896rvf.34 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.199.15 with SMTP id w15mr13980522rvf.253.1231707371954; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.0.3? (75-101-29-19.dsl.static.sonic.net [75.101.29.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c20sm5166503rvf.8.2009.01.11.12.56.11 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:56:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496A5CEA.7000606@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:56:10 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586ABDF070@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586ABDF070@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: (In the interests of addressing the interested audiences, what I'm doing here is addressing Dare's comments about activity streams over on the activity streams mailing list, and the media extensions over here.) My feedback to Dare about the activity stuff can be viewed here: http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams/msg/27d35bbb13281640 Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > 1.) http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia > - This spec describes a bunch of elements but not how they are > supposed to be used. I'm especially confused about atom:link with > rel="preview". What is it a preview of? The example in the spec > has a single preview (pic) and two enclosures (also pictures). > How is that expected to be treated? I'd expect there to be a > 1:1 mapping between enclosures and previews but there doesn't > seem to be any such rule in the spec. > The text of the spec here is: The "preview" link relation indicates that the link is to a reduced-fidelity and/or reduced-content representation of the media object that is intended to allow the user to sample the content before retrieving a full representation. From your mention of multiple enclosures I think the confusion arises because AtomMedia specifically addresses only the use-case where an entry represents one specific media object -- that is, one photo, or one video, etc -- so all enclosures and all previews are of that same object. Specifically, if there are multiple enclosures they are expected to be different representations of the same content. So "the media object", as referred to in the description of rel="preview", means the single photo, video or other media object that this entry represents. The spec then goes on to give some concrete examples: For example, if the media object is an image a thumbnail of the photograph can be linked using this relationship. If the media object is a video, the preview could be a thumbnail image of a representative frame from the video, or a clip showing a short segment of the full video. Would clarifying the fact that a particular entry represents only one media object address your concern, or are the above quoted passages themselves unclear? Thanks for the feedback. -Martin From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 11 18:57:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803483A68C0 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:57:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NefwYfkcd0m4 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748063A6809 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C2os1v078361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:50:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C2osDv078360; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:50:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.240]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C2oh63078337 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:50:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so11845887rvf.34 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.208.17 with SMTP id f17mr11002671rvg.74.1231728643418; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.0.3? (75-101-29-19.dsl.static.sonic.net [75.101.29.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g31sm10830238rvb.4.2009.01.11.18.50.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:50:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:50:41 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: The work on using Atom to encode activity streams has raised what seems to be a more general issue with Atom that I thought I'd bring up over here to see what insight this group can bring. In the "normal" case of a feed of entries a user has published, "published" quiet sensibly represents both the time the entry was published and the time it appeared in the feed, by definition. However, when the feed is of something else, these two times are no longer necessarily the same. Consider for example the feed that YouTube publishes of a user's "Favorite Videos". In this feed, the entry-level atom:published tells us when the entry was added as a favorite, *not* when the entry (i.e. the video) was posted to YouTube by its author. However, Digg's equivalent "Favorite Articles" feed (which is actually RSS 2.0, but let's pretend it's Atom for the sake of this discussion) has the published time set to the time the article was originally submitted to Digg, *not* when it was added as a favorite. My question, then, is which of these approaches is correct. The Atom specification is (intentionally?) very vague about what this time represents, but it does refer to "the entry". It's open to interpretation whether "the entry" means "the actual atom:entry element in this feed" or "the item that this atom:entry element describes". Do you think it would be vaulable to have an optional extra element that indicates when the entry appeared in the current feed/collection? (This would effectively make YouTube wrong and Digg right.) (I'm told that Digg couldn't actually implement this element even if it was specified, because they don't retain a timestamp on their "favorite" relationships, but at least it would reduce the ambiguity about what atom:published represents.) From osmate@a54321.com Sun Jan 11 19:15:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06723A6809 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:15:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JY9azVW0PKoh for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-71-120-111-117.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net (pool-71-120-111-117.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.120.111.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CAF628C24F for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:15:26 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Order status 57207 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090112031527.0CAF628C24F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:15:26 -0800 (PST)

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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 11 20:09:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA7628C2A0 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:09:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.317 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.317 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UYII5i+Ut4aQ for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7211F28C29F for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C42ptg081104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:02:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C42pOB081103; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:02:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.175]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C42dPR081094 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:02:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pjkeane@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so10755157wfc.28 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:02:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=JJw8SjXUlpgE3LE0+63vsYkmLXOukp3Gy6hlB8kNgGU=; b=x2ReOs0roRyC1lnBs8JJa1P4WALYB+oW/vAzD6cyGIbeGlpZRj57V9WEO5w/0xGZCw 02quLUd6mqFRM7m7Y16JFHe8XtSZAYgJZeMzxoHxQEvLH5Lv2nVQ9GDdhqAwPc54lXcX w+OEvjlLWMsDRaX7svP6I7bjssdZrQ29q6K1s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=TNcaFwEWqPIdNsdkGlOUteEFTB10JRpccgcwm4D4e8njpEnsX1f1CqXNg/wyUscP4H kdfP9Q61szsGOX+oWN9QpEjSYfMTReKIfRUT4xNPM0N02nurzpGxi2ES9gRiBWjGkReC oRQOJEe0DUc75lXm+IvBSx+1TQkGDmjdY66wc= Received: by 10.142.125.9 with SMTP id x9mr7864172wfc.236.1231732959326; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.148.8 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:02:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8158ad750901112002y283f7517s8d5aa60f79295e2f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:02:39 -0600 From: "Peter Keane" To: "Martin Atkins" Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" Cc: "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6844720b0c77c219 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Martin Atkins wrote: > > > The work on using Atom to encode activity streams has raised what seems to > be a more general issue with Atom that I thought I'd bring up over here to > see what insight this group can bring. > > In the "normal" case of a feed of entries a user has published, "published" > quiet sensibly represents both the time the entry was published and the time > it appeared in the feed, by definition. > > However, when the feed is of something else, these two times are no longer > necessarily the same. > > Consider for example the feed that YouTube publishes of a user's "Favorite > Videos". In this feed, the entry-level atom:published tells us when the > entry was added as a favorite, *not* when the entry (i.e. the video) was > posted to YouTube by its author. > > However, Digg's equivalent "Favorite Articles" feed (which is actually RSS > 2.0, but let's pretend it's Atom for the sake of this discussion) has the > published time set to the time the article was originally submitted to Digg, > *not* when it was added as a favorite. I might be thinking too much as a library geek, but it seems to me that the YouTube approach is more correct. The activity stream work is raising good questions and I'd say you need a clear idea of the abstract model of an activity and its consituent entities and actors. This sort of thing can get pretty hairy (Google "FRBR" or CIDOC-CRM" for real fun) if there is not a pretty good shared understanding of what's what. Unless I am mistaken, an activity stream is making assertions about activities and to mix in metadata about the underlying things (like when a video was originally posted) seems off. Of course, a linked-to Atom entry representing that media item (specifically it's YouTube instance) probably would have the that information. FWIW, I am hoping this Activities stream will (like Atom itself) have all kinds of applicability outside the social networking context in which it is being created, so I hope the modeling is very solid. To me, a set of activity streams seems to offer lots more opportunity for semantic mining than "linked data in RDF" since the human actors are so much more visible. (Which is why I find the act of making it a favorite more pertinent than when it was posted, which I can find by other means). > > My question, then, is which of these approaches is correct. The Atom > specification is (intentionally?) very vague about what this time > represents, but it does refer to "the entry". It's open to interpretation > whether "the entry" means "the actual atom:entry element in this feed" or > "the item that this atom:entry element describes". > > Do you think it would be vaulable to have an optional extra element that > indicates when the entry appeared in the current feed/collection? (This > would effectively make YouTube wrong and Digg right.) > > (I'm told that Digg couldn't actually implement this element even if it was > specified, because they don't retain a timestamp on their "favorite" > relationships, but at least it would reduce the ambiguity about what That's a significant omission on Digg's part, I think. --peter keane > atom:published represents.) > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 11 20:35:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDA828C29C for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:35:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.900, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dp3xtkNcyaLq for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B008828C28C for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C4SgXY082015 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:28:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C4SgGM082014; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:28:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.250]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C4SUkN082004 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:28:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so11883607rvf.34 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.204.7 with SMTP id b7mr14184227rvg.118.1231734509763; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.0.3? (75-101-29-19.dsl.static.sonic.net [75.101.29.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k41sm7412975rvb.3.2009.01.11.20.28.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:28:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496AC6EB.1080106@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:28:27 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <495EA106.8010009@degeneration.co.uk> <49664D19.4050303@dehora.net> <49665726.8090506@degeneration.co.uk> <496695E2.3080900@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <496695E2.3080900@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Bill de hOra wrote: > > Martin Atkins wrote: >> >> Bill de hOra wrote: >>> 1,2,4,5 I think are duplicates, 3 depends on what activity:published >>> means. But on reading through the spec, I see that "5.5. The >>> activity:object Extension Element" is saying to use atom:* elements. >>> So I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix >>> by throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations: >> >> Note that the top-level entry here represents the activity or action, >> while the content of activity:object (which is also an Atom Entry in >> all but name) represents the object of the activity. >> >> Therefore these are in fact not duplicates. The entry-level atom:title >> is a human-readable description of the activity ("Geraldine posted >> ...") while the activity:object atom:title is the title of what >> Geraldine posted, which in this case is a photo with the title "My Cat". > > - with that many elements there will be boilerplate data injected into > one or the other. James has already mentioned this, and it is an age old > problem with markup, one that predates XML and HTML. Given what I know > about event formats in general and SN specific data like activities > which I have to aggregate, I think you have too many tags, which leads > me to... > > - ...volume. My rule of thumb is that each interesting thing that > happens in a web system causes about 10 events and you should plan to > scale accordingly. I believe social network activity to be like this. My > guess is that verbosity of the proposal (which I don't normally care > about) will be an adoption factor. Activity aggregator services already use the entry-level title to encode a human-readable activity description, and they do this for the benefit of non-activity-aware consumers, so the actual title of the object must be in a distinct element. My intent with activity:object was to be able to re-use the Atom elements which are already understood rather than inventing new elements. I consider this to be similar in design to atom:source, which re-uses the existing Feed-level elements. > And even if you are right about non-duplication, then there are still > two arguments to be had, > > - rename all the activity elements so people are not confused about the > purpose of the elements (I don't necessarily agree with this approach, > but it's real) > So you believe that re-using the Atom elements inside activity:object is confusing? If this is the case, then my design has indeed failed, since my intention was exactly the opposite... that activity:object/atom:title would be understood to mean "the title of the object" based on people's existing understanding of what atom:title means. > - either remove atom:source from activity:object or type qualify > atom:source as being the source of the action and lift it up. I have a > doubt you need both elements, unless there is a use case where an > intermediary like friendfeed needs atom:source for something else. > atom:source inside activity:object tells us where the aggregator (i.e. FriendFeed) found the object. atom:source as a sibling of activity:object comes into play when the source feed already contains activity entries; FriendFeed is not synthesizing implied activities in this case. The most readily-available example of such an instance is when I feed the output of Plaxo (another activity aggregator) into FriendFeed. In that case, there ought to be an atom:source sibling to activity:object that refers to the Plaxo feed, while the atom:source inside activity:object would be the source as far as *Plaxo* is concerned. Without this distinction, the following activity published on Plaxo: "Martin posted a photo on Flickr" would become the following when read into FriendFeed: "Martin posted a photo on Plaxo" or worse, "Martin posted 'Martin posted a photo on Flickr' on Plaxo'" Do you believe that this level of indirection is counter-intuitive? > >> You are correct that in this case there is ambiguity for a few elements: >> >> * If the verb is something other than "post", atom:published becomes >> the activity time rather than the published time. The definition of >> the "post" verb means that for that verb the activity time and the >> publication time are always the same, since it was not published until >> it was posted. >> >> * atom:author becomes the activity actor rather than the author of the >> object. Again, in the "post" case these are the same, but for other >> verbs they are not necessarily the same. Unfortunately existing >> practice constrains the solution here; for example, YouTube's >> "favorite" feeds have atom:author set to the user that owns the feed, >> not the user who authored the video. Therefore the spec currently says >> that the author belongs to the activity, not to the object. > > In markup-land, these are called co-occurence constraints. I would try > to avoid them if possible :) > As I'm sure you will have seen, I've started a separate thread about this, since I believe the problem is more general than AtomActivity. > >>> - If this was an IETF standards track, I would suggest an IANA >>> registry for activity:verbs. >>> >> >> Do you intend the IANA registry to replace the use of URIs as the >> extension mechanism with simple keywords? > > No, just to act as social control as per the link registry. If these > will be acting as switch-on-type controls in code rather than data to be > rendered out, then I can't imagine verb proliferation being beneficial > (what will happen is that the problem Dave Winer has identified with > photo media and which Dare Obsanjo has explained will get pushed around > rather than solved - activity:verb reminds me of soap:action in that > sense). > Okay, I understand. As currently defined, the ActivitySchema spec is effectively the registry and I suppose you need to go through me to get new verbs under http://activitystrea.ms/ added; once the spec is final, it would make sense to have a mechanism like an IANA registry to allow other specifications to extend the core set. >> Right now the main "inspiration" for this spec are the >> syndication-based activity aggregators such as FriendFeed, Plaxo, >> Movable Type Action Streams, etc, but I agree that it is important to >> align with OpenSocial too. > > I work on aggregation for mobile systems, and while its not a format > issue, I suspect the amount of data being served to describe the > activity is high enough to impact services that are not flat-rated. Do > the spec backers want to send that much data down to a handset? > This is of course a concern; adding more data will always disadvantage those consumers that are not making use of that data. If there is an activity-aware aggregator running on a mobile device it will presumably be interested in this extra data, but a generic aggregator will of course ignore it having already spent the data transfer on it. As far as I can tell, the best way that the industry has found to deal with this problem thus far is to serve different content to constrained devices than to traditional computers, whether done by providing two parallel resources (m.sitename.com vs. www.sitename.com) or by using heuristics to determine whether a user-agent is resource-constrained and automatically delivering the constrained version. On the other hand, it could be argued that AtomActivity would enable a mobile-based activity aggregator to use a single feed on FriendFeed in place of fetching a number of site feeds individually and mimicking the functionality of FriendFeed client-side, which would presumably be more efficient overall. > >> The work for things such as photos and videos is slightly more since >> some providers would need to add thumbnail links and so forth, but it >> was a very strong requirement that existing feeds would require only >> minimal changes -- and, in most cases, only additions -- to hit the >> important use-cases for this spec. > > I think this is more an abbreviated syntax than an implied activity and > I'd strongly suggest you pick just one and spec it - keeping client and > server dev work to a minimum ups the chance of adoption. [Having an > abbreviated syntax without question damaged RDF/XML]. > The two kinds of entry already exist in the wild, so I'm wary of excluding it from the spec. FriendFeed would be unable to use the implied activity shorthand without changing the content of their feeds as percieved by non-activity aggregators, and the reverse is true for sites such as YouTube and Flickr that currently publish what I refer to as "object entries". > > >>> - Having duplicate places to put data will easily confuse publishers, >>> as will clients be confused by data acquisition from parent elements. >>> This is just how things are with XML modelling. >> >> The most important feedback I've taken from this is that the spec >> should be re-organised to emphasise the implied activity shorthand >> rather than starting with the full "activity entry" case, since I >> expect only activity aggregator services to publish the latter, and >> indeed the motivation for this separation is that these publishers >> already have feeds that represent activities rather than objects. > > That and the fact that everyone who uses this spec will have to think > about where to put the data instead of being able to guess right. Reduce > that burden! > It is my current belief that legacy software (both on the publisher and consumer side) requires at least some duplication in the "activity entry" case, but I will definitely take your feedback on board and see if it can be made clearer and less redundant. Thanks, Martin From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 11 21:42:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0CEF3A69A2 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:42:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lFLrpVGncVDT for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:42:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396403A69B2 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C5Z83A084881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:35:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C5Z8To084880; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:35:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C5YuLt084811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:35:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dareo@microsoft.com) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.24.67) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:36:17 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.108.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.24.67]) with mapi; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:34:48 -0800 From: Dare Obasanjo To: Martin Atkins , Atom Syntax Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:34:43 -0800 Subject: RE: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Thread-Topic: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams Thread-Index: Acl0ML5dh0Ldr+d3RIKU8TULD5QIYwARoamA Message-ID: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586ABDF7B5@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586ABDF070@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496A5CEA.7000606@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <496A5CEA.7000606@degeneration.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > Would clarifying the fact that a particular entry represents only one med= ia object address your concern, or are the above quoted passages themselves= unclear? Making that constraint explicit up front would address the concern.=20 -- THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139 If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then enc= ounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just t= o be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send= out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org= ] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 12:56 PM To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams (In the interests of addressing the interested audiences, what I'm doing here is addressing Dare's comments about activity streams over on the activity streams mailing list, and the media extensions over here.) My feedback to Dare about the activity stuff can be viewed here: http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams/msg/27d35bbb13281640 Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > 1.) http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia > - This spec describes a bunch of elements but not how they are > supposed to be used. I'm especially confused about atom:link with > rel=3D"preview". What is it a preview of? The example in the spec > has a single preview (pic) and two enclosures (also pictures). > How is that expected to be treated? I'd expect there to be a > 1:1 mapping between enclosures and previews but there doesn't > seem to be any such rule in the spec. > The text of the spec here is: The "preview" link relation indicates that the link is to a reduced-fidelity and/or reduced-content representation of the media object that is intended to allow the user to sample the content before retrieving a full representation. From your mention of multiple enclosures I think the confusion arises because AtomMedia specifically addresses only the use-case where an entry represents one specific media object -- that is, one photo, or one video, etc -- so all enclosures and all previews are of that same object. Specifically, if there are multiple enclosures they are expected to be different representations of the same content. So "the media object", as referred to in the description of rel=3D"preview", means the single photo, video or other media object that this entry represents. The spec then goes on to give some concrete examples: For example, if the media object is an image a thumbnail of the photograph can be linked using this relationship. If the media object is a video, the preview could be a thumbnail image of a representative frame from the video, or a clip showing a short segment of the full video. Would clarifying the fact that a particular entry represents only one media object address your concern, or are the above quoted passages themselves unclear? Thanks for the feedback. -Martin From michaelerkens@ampen.de Sun Jan 11 22:16:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C703A6840 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:16:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.416 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.416 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HELO_EQ_NE_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HOST_EQ_NE_JP=2.599, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fGssxOTDTM1r for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmu01f47.cncm.ne.jp (cmu01f47.cncm.ne.jp [202.169.69.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 900C73A6830 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:16:03 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 80480 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090112061604.900C73A6830@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:16:03 -0800 (PST)

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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jan 12 14:50:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721BE3A67E4 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:50:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.372, BAYES_20=-0.74, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SsQXW-Jset-K for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB9A73A67C0 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CMdnp5044483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:39:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CMdno3044482; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:39:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.109]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CMdcQe044471 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:39:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.12]) by bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:39:38 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:39:37 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.30.251 by BAY141-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:39:33 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.30.251] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:39:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2009 22:39:37.0554 (UTC) FILETIME=[A6356320:01C97506] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Martin Atkins wrote: > Consider for example the feed that YouTube publishes of a user's "Favorite > Videos". In this feed, the entry-level atom:published tells us when the > entry was added as a favorite, *not* when the entry (i.e. the video) was > posted to YouTube by its author. Without answering you directly, I'd like to comment on YouTube's feeds, because I think what I have to say is relevant to the way you might go about creating feeds for activity streams. Imagine I know someone that has a knack for finding good videos on YouTube, so I subscribe to their favourites feed to keep up with all the cool stuff they've discovered. I also subscribe to the YouTube "Recently Featured" feed, for similar reasons. And finally I subscribe to a couple of individual feeds for users who are friends. Now imagine one day that one of my friends produces a really good video. It's spotted by the person whose favourites I subscribe to, as well as being a featured feed. That means the entry is going to show up in three of my feeds. Identical content, linking to an identical page, repeated three times. How many times do you think I want to view that entry? You might be thinking, that's exactly what the atom:id element is for - my feed reader should be able to detect that all three entries are the same since they should have the same id value. Only they don't have the same value. Each one has a different id, so I get to see the exact same entry repeated three times. Saying that this is annoying would be a huge understatement. Where this is relevant to your question, is that if you change the published date from the original entry (as YouTube is doing - at least for their favourites feeds), you basically have to change the entry id, since you're now no longer dealing with the same entry. And that, as I've said, would be incredibly annoying. If you think that's a worthwhile compromise for your needs, that's your choice to make. I'll just weep quietly in the corner. Regards James From mcummingsnn@advantageh.com Mon Jan 12 14:54:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5363A6914 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:54:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -42.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-42.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WOVQ5dNoza7X for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:54:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from amada.co.jp (unknown [78.139.153.176]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 14D623A67C0 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:54:46 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 69439 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090112225448.14D623A67C0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:54:46 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jan 12 15:15:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B023A67EA for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:15:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.244, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r5LAzF8OWREO for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:15:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479573A67C0 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:15:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CN8KW2045729 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:08:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CN8K9N045728; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:08:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.175]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CN87g7045718 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:08:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so11180875wfc.28 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.141.21 with SMTP id o21mr9147614wfd.150.1231801687346; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.64.79? ([204.9.180.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 28sm9053834wfd.14.2009.01.12.15.08.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:08:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:08:05 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James Holderness wrote: [snip] > > You might be thinking, that's exactly what the atom:id element is for - > my feed reader should be able to detect that all three entries are the > same since they should have the same id value. Only they don't have the > same value. Each one has a different id, so I get to see the exact same > entry repeated three times. Saying that this is annoying would be a huge > understatement. > I hadn't noticed this -- that the id varies between feeds -- but that's definitely interesting. My assumption until this point was that different feeds describing the same resource would have the same id. > Where this is relevant to your question, is that if you change the > published date from the original entry (as YouTube is doing - at least > for their favourites feeds), you basically have to change the entry id, > since you're now no longer dealing with the same entry. And that, as > I've said, would be incredibly annoying. > This raises a more fundamental question of what atom:id is the id for, In my mental model, I've always thought of atom:id as being the id for the thing that the entry represents, not that concrete atom:entry XML element. Therefore I'd expect different atom:entry elements that exist in different feeds but that represent the same "thing" would have the same id. My understanding of section 4.2.6 seems to agree: When an Atom Document is relocated, migrated, syndicated, republished, exported, or imported, the content of its atom:id element MUST NOT change. Put another way, an atom:id element pertains to all instantiations of a particular Atom entry or feed; revisions retain the same content in their atom:id elements. It is suggested that the atom:id element be stored along with the associated resource. I would consider an entry appearing in the three feeds you described to be either "republished" or "syndicated" (I'm not really sure how these are different) and so you'd expect the id to remain the same across all of them. Changing the id in order that the publication date can be re-used as a "date this was added to this collection" seems like a shaky workaround at best. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jan 12 17:52:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A5A3A692C for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:52:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E2KR24mSFR+L for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AA83A67DB for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0D1i28W050994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:44:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0D1i2Dq050993; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:44:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0D1hpNE050964 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:44:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dareo@microsoft.com) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:45:20 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.108.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:43:48 -0800 From: Dare Obasanjo To: Martin Atkins CC: Atom Syntax Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:43:48 -0800 Subject: RE: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" Thread-Topic: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" Thread-Index: Acl1C/urkTC62+hLT5e4tmWc4duDjgAE88Dg Message-ID: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is getting metaphysical but do they represent the same thing? If Alice= , Bob, Dick and Jane share a link to a favorite video should it be treated = as identical with the same atom:id? What if they each put their own caption= on the video? What if there are comments from their friends on each instan= ce they have shared? These aren't hypothetical questions, I'm describing Fa= cebook's implementation of sharing videos with friends. -- THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139 If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then enc= ounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just t= o be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send= out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org= ] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 3:08 PM Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "t= ime this entry was added to this feed" James Holderness wrote: [snip] > > You might be thinking, that's exactly what the atom:id element is for - > my feed reader should be able to detect that all three entries are the > same since they should have the same id value. Only they don't have the > same value. Each one has a different id, so I get to see the exact same > entry repeated three times. Saying that this is annoying would be a huge > understatement. > I hadn't noticed this -- that the id varies between feeds -- but that's definitely interesting. My assumption until this point was that different feeds describing the same resource would have the same id. > Where this is relevant to your question, is that if you change the > published date from the original entry (as YouTube is doing - at least > for their favourites feeds), you basically have to change the entry id, > since you're now no longer dealing with the same entry. And that, as > I've said, would be incredibly annoying. > This raises a more fundamental question of what atom:id is the id for, In my mental model, I've always thought of atom:id as being the id for the thing that the entry represents, not that concrete atom:entry XML element. Therefore I'd expect different atom:entry elements that exist in different feeds but that represent the same "thing" would have the same id. My understanding of section 4.2.6 seems to agree: When an Atom Document is relocated, migrated, syndicated, republished, exported, or imported, the content of its atom:id element MUST NOT change. Put another way, an atom:id element pertains to all instantiations of a particular Atom entry or feed; revisions retain the same content in their atom:id elements. It is suggested that the atom:id element be stored along with the associated resource. I would consider an entry appearing in the three feeds you described to be either "republished" or "syndicated" (I'm not really sure how these are different) and so you'd expect the id to remain the same across all of them. Changing the id in order that the publication date can be re-used as a "date this was added to this collection" seems like a shaky workaround at best. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jan 12 17:57:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69783A69D1 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:57:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.236 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.236 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.763, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nwccuNGeYDCi for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3C23A69C5 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0D1paqQ051206 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:51:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0D1paQM051205; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:51:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.245]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0D1pPtC051196 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:51:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so12461829rvf.34 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.103.2 with SMTP id a2mr12640057wfc.164.1231811484881; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.64.79? ([204.9.180.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 30sm8927352wff.32.2009.01.12.17.51.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:51:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:51:23 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Dare Obasanjo wrote: > This is getting metaphysical but do they represent the same thing? > If Alice, Bob, Dick and Jane share a link to a favorite video > should it be treated as identical with the same atom:id? What > if they each put their own caption on the video? What if there > are comments from their friends on each instance they have > shared? These aren't hypothetical questions, I'm describing > Facebook's implementation of sharing videos with friends. > While I'd concede that this is not a general solution, in Activity Streams land we currently have an object type that is called "bookmark" that is a reference to something else. In this case, the thing it's "about" to goes into , which is not ideal but seems to align with current practice. The goes to a page representing the bookmark, if any, or it's just omitted completely if there is no such page. The following URL is an example of something that might be an an appropriate for a "bookmark" object. http://ma.gnolia.com/people/Mart/bookmarks/cribonush I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather than the item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that matter) is different in this case. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jan 12 20:12:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A143A67E4 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:12:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8hU4zKLn9Q8p for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8D43A67AD for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0D43N7Y057509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:03:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0D43Npo057508; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:03:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-gx0-f19.google.com (mail-gx0-f19.google.com [209.85.217.19]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0D43CtU057497 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:03:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from electriceel@gmail.com) Received: by gxk12 with SMTP id 12so389949gxk.10 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:03:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:reply-to :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from; bh=eecjzgxtqBvllaO3VzpeTWXuPXxepJeBSWEBCWhr0o4=; b=K+eDSi8Z8ApriqyiScabfaXzvPEFUuqrJt5bGAlyQ+qgj5O/KL6Re1ReykqGkzDbS2 kuh/YvY1RA7aBtVHfXPU3PzYwszK1EdS511C0AwddJz99fmqYT7JIIougQWn5h04biDu QMcuzxx9Swa+QzNuSkeqOs7iuHWJz8ftH7OqI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from; b=a92Wkx7EU+148MAI2+D1Bn7rmCp+n7HbbabpeOvUlNWvjA1WX8M8Xw/9SAaJ8lfLZA 1E21ltVX1KsGfC5jJAYaSPcYQJGzBob1N6v/4IkKrtT17poMJc1Rts1VA5aXG8uzq601 7L9OrHXavOdv/cyudhPrbnHfXmPb4J3sL678M= Received: by 10.64.201.16 with SMTP id y16mr20399830qbf.82.1231819391265; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from G-Force.local (71-87-92-92.dhcp.krny.ne.charter.com [71.87.92.92]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm50964272qbw.21.2009.01.12.20.03.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:03:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496C127C.7030909@geckotribe.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:03:08 -0600 Reply-To: antone@geckotribe.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080515) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Martin Atkins wrote: > I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional > metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather than > the item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that matter) is > different in this case. That makes sense to me. As for the un-annotated case where essentially the same entry is showing up in multiple feeds, perhaps a reasonable approach to making it easy to recognize them as the same entry would be to give them all the same atom:id, and give them all an identical atom:source pointing to The One Feed To Rule Them All from YouTube, which perhaps would never really exist -- sort of a "dark matter" feed that just binds the other feeds together. 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From niy@alsde.edu Tue Jan 13 04:51:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E923A3A6A6D for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:51:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jOWo-WbAoL+V for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from aatkings.co.nz (unknown [189.80.20.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2882F3A67EE for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:51:39 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: mail 34687 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080611-1, 11/06/2008), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20090113125142.2882F3A67EE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:51:39 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 05:16:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5693A6810 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:16:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.074 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.074 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_12=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id te2u2rSUV3w4 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352AE3A67ED for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DD7DN7087546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:07:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DD7DWT087545; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:07:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n0DD71lq087518 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:07:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jan 2009 13:07:00 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp038) with SMTP; 13 Jan 2009 14:07:00 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18aYKZmY4kakF4hKh0J7PE0d9dXkNziAGd4o1Bc/5 inT/HEWt35cuXm Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:06:59 +0100 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" Message-ID: <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.64 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Martin Atkins [2009-01-13 03:00]: > I suppose the general case is that when the user adds > additional metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the > original item rather than the item itself, so the id (and > everything else, for that matter) is different in this case. Exactly. And the mere act of bookmarking generates additional metadata – specifically the time at which the item was bookmarked. Plus, if I follow the favourites of a user, and they star something that was uploaded 3 years ago, I don’t want my feed reader to show the item at the very bottom of my unread items list. What matters to me is when the friend/user bookmarked it. * James Holderness [2009-01-12 23:50]: > How many times do you think I want to view that entry? Depends. If I’ve seen the entry on the feeds of one of the people I subscribe to directly, then I probably don’t care about its instance in the general popular items feed. But I usually care to be made aware of the fact that the people I subscribe to have bookmarked it; so if I saw it on the popular items feed or the feed of the friend who uploaded it, I would still want to see that the stuff-spotting user I follow has also bookmarked it. If the popular stuff feed has relevant annotations that the other feeds have not, I might even still care to see that one too. In general I care about all the content/annotations added uniquely by each of the feed publishers. I imagine you don’t care as much, though. Different people want different things. It would be nice if we had a link relation that makes a stronger assertion than `related` does, about the linked resource being the subject that the entry describes, with each being distinct resources. That would let feed readers handle cases like this tripple-publishing more intelligently, f.ex. summarise them all in a single display unit. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From judy.schmuckert@ameristarcasinos.com Tue Jan 13 06:06:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15573A6856 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:06:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8zkzxr35E62u for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 60.sub-75-253-255.myvzw.com (60.sub-75-253-255.myvzw.com [75.253.255.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 22ECC3A684F for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:06:57 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: mail 75311 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090113140658.22ECC3A684F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:06:57 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 07:51:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500A63A690A for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:51:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.059 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.059 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_12=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 93e8HiH0Z+KF for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4164D3A6906 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFgpQC099079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:42:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DFgpYN099078; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:42:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n0DFgo0J099070 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:42:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jan 2009 15:42:49 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 13 Jan 2009 16:42:49 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/3J4dXbAf3/6eAgcl5lgnw0BLwDw0f8gln+sohyf ZDIUzPccmgproH Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:42:45 +0100 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" Message-ID: <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.71 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Aristotle Pagaltzis [2009-01-13 14:20]: > It would be nice if we had a link relation that makes a > stronger assertion than `related` does, about the linked > resource being the subject that the entry describes, with each > being distinct resources. That would let feed readers handle > cases like this tripple-publishing more intelligently, f.ex. > summarise them all in a single display unit. Hey, actually, we do: RFC 4685. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 10:04:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4327828C11C for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:04:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.610, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_12=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YEVhF1WMblWM for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151EC3A67E9 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DHtwWM008377 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:55:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DHtwaS008376; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:55:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.169]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DHtwN3008370 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:55:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so119257wfc.28 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.245.6 with SMTP id s6mr398585wfh.302.1231869356496; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.64.79? ([204.9.180.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 30sm2087786wfa.21.2009.01.13.09.55.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:55:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:55:55 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> In-Reply-To: <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > * Aristotle Pagaltzis [2009-01-13 14:20]: >> It would be nice if we had a link relation that makes a >> stronger assertion than `related` does, about the linked >> resource being the subject that the entry describes, with each >> being distinct resources. That would let feed readers handle >> cases like this tripple-publishing more intelligently, f.ex. >> summarise them all in a single display unit. > > Hey, actually, we do: RFC 4685. > What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading Extensions) The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we need for this use-case. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 10:26:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE3328C0CF for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:26:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Riw+7UWKjF9Z for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D897728C0EF for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DIHPvP009504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:17:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DIHPWG009502; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:17:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n0DIH9sm009485 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:17:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jan 2009 18:17:08 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp063) with SMTP; 13 Jan 2009 19:17:08 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+fQ/NM0y2fQ3R12jyot9CLpAvHLe8Kgd9bGYAHRq b5bFxWoVRC3YMG Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:17:04 +0100 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" Message-ID: <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.67 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Martin Atkins [2009-01-13 19:05]: > What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading > Extensions) > > The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we > need for this use-case. No, the `in-reply-to` element. It doesn’t sound like the link relation was I thinking of at first glance but the definitions are congruent. Even my proposal for how it could be usefully displayed is essentially that of a thread. It’s kind of embarrassing that I didn’t notice immediately. (Nearly no one supports 4685, of course. But then neither do they support the hypothetical link relation.) Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 11:18:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E85A3A6869 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:18:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.791 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.791 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.808, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y8QqLrlT13Xk for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:18:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402AF3A6802 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DJ8Iw8011906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:08:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DJ8IgF011905; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:08:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.168]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DJ85EU011892 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:08:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so152693wfc.28 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.135.13 with SMTP id i13mr12999681wfd.8.1231873684597; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.64.79? ([204.9.180.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 24sm49738930wfc.2.2009.01.13.11.08.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496CE693.2020600@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:08:03 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> In-Reply-To: <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > * Martin Atkins [2009-01-13 19:05]: >> What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading >> Extensions) >> >> The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we >> need for this use-case. > > No, the `in-reply-to` element. It doesn’t sound like the link > relation was I thinking of at first glance but the definitions > are congruent. Even my proposal for how it could be usefully > displayed is essentially that of a thread. It’s kind of > embarrassing that I didn’t notice immediately. > > (Nearly no one supports 4685, of course. But then neither do they > support the hypothetical link relation.) > It seems strange to use in-reply-to to represent a pointer to something. To me, in-reply-to seems a specialized kind of pointer, not a general pointer. However, I'm willing to be convinced if you can explain your reasoning! :) From oe5@alexmo.com Tue Jan 13 12:51:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96F328C0E2 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:51:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.271 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.271 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HKbhKiZM+rfh for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from akebono-brake.co.jp (unknown [190.27.60.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 18A6528B56A for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:51:09 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 77316 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090113205110.18A6528B56A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:51:09 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 13:05:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77C73A6B11 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:05:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.779 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.779 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_12=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qi99LXGDHxWM for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0F328C178 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DKvrcx017326 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:57:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DKvrJp017325; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:57:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc1-s27.bay0.hotmail.com (s1.bay2.hotmail.com [65.54.246.99] (may be forged)) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DKvgNi017316 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:57:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.17]) by bay0-omc1-s27.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:57:40 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:57:40 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.30.251 by BAY141-DAV7.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:57:40 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.30.251] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:57:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2009 20:57:40.0972 (UTC) FILETIME=[92DACAC0:01C975C1] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > Plus, if I follow the favourites of a user, and they star > something that was uploaded 3 years ago, I don’t want my feed > reader to show the item at the very bottom of my unread items > list. What matters to me is when the friend/user bookmarked it. That's a valid point, but it's only really a problem if your feed reader sorts by some form of date rather than something like time of arrival. I've never thought that was a good idea, for a number of reasons, but I accept that I may be in the minority in that regard. >> How many times do you think I want to view that entry? > > Depends. If I’ve seen the entry on the feeds of one of the people > I subscribe to directly, then I probably don’t care about its > instance in the general popular items feed. But I usually care to > be made aware of the fact that the people I subscribe to have > bookmarked it The thing is, if the entries were all correctly identified with the same atom:id, your feed reader can do all sorts of useful things. It could display an annotation on the entry saying something like "also received in feeds X, Y and Z". Or if you read feeds individually rather than in a merged view, it might show the message in all three feeds, but automatically mark all three versions as read the minute you read any one of them. Or let the user choose whether to eliminate duplicates or not. If the entries are not correctly identified, though, you've got zero options. > If > the popular stuff feed has relevant annotations that the other > feeds have not, I might even still care to see that one too. In > general I care about all the content/annotations added uniquely > by each of the feed publishers. Annotations are another issue altogether. If you're commenting on someone's video, that's an entry in it's own right that should be pointing back to the item you're annotating. But you don't take the entire content of the entry, throw a "cool video!" comment on the end of it, and then claim authorship of that content. > It would be nice if we had a link relation that makes a stronger > assertion than `related` does, about the linked resource being > the subject that the entry describes, with each being distinct > resources. That would let feed readers handle cases like this > tripple-publishing more intelligently, f.ex. summarise them all > in a single display unit. As you mention later, the in-reply-to link would be appropriate for this sort of thing, but IMO only if the entry is the annotation itself, and not the original content. Definitely not a byte-for-byte copy of the original entry with a new date and author (what YouTube is doing). That's plagiarism. The fact that both feeds are generated by the same server doesn't make it any less wrong. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 13:15:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0249C28C144 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.393, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id czTugqpqN2IZ for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A47A3A6B19 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DL8h4t017755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:08:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DL8hj4017754; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:08:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.185]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DL8WMQ017746 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:08:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id k50so213033rnd.3 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.6.1 with SMTP id j1mr13029749wfi.152.1231880910963; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.64.79? ([204.9.180.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 28sm50990891wfg.8.2009.01.13.13.08.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:08:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:08:29 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James Holderness wrote: > > Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: >> Plus, if I follow the favourites of a user, and they star >> something that was uploaded 3 years ago, I don’t want my feed >> reader to show the item at the very bottom of my unread items >> list. What matters to me is when the friend/user bookmarked it. > > That's a valid point, but it's only really a problem if your feed reader > sorts by some form of date rather than something like time of arrival. > I've never thought that was a good idea, for a number of reasons, but I > accept that I may be in the minority in that regard. > If I'm understanding you correctly, then in the common case of a polling aggregator the order is skewed unless polling is done very often. Sorting by published time allows items from multiple feeds to be intermingled into a single list in the correct order. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 15:09:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392F23A6A32 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:09:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.660, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iarg0baxGl83 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:09:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2A33A69A6 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DN3LBE021890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:03:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DN3LW2021889; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:03:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DN3LRC021882 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:03:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (83-70-224-89-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.224.89]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14926DD499 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:03:19 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <496D1DB5.4000606@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:03:17 +0000 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496C127C.7030909@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <496C127C.7030909@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Antone Roundy wrote: > > Martin Atkins wrote: >> I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional >> metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather >> than the item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that matter) >> is different in this case. > > That makes sense to me. Me too. The atom:source element isn't designed to capture that idea, so we're looking at something along the lines of thr:in-reply-to or a new rel attribute. Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 15:10:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74BC23A6A71 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:10:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.350, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJQ1AvvcxgVu for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DCB3A69A6 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DN0HWN021810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:00:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DN0HKf021809; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:00:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DN06n2021799 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:00:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (83-70-224-89-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.224.89]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610F3DD1D5 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <496D1CF2.9010708@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:00:02 +0000 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Martin Atkins wrote: > > > The work on using Atom to encode activity streams has raised what seems > to be a more general issue with Atom that I thought I'd bring up over > here to see what insight this group can bring. > > In the "normal" case of a feed of entries a user has published, > "published" quiet sensibly represents both the time the entry was > published and the time it appeared in the feed, by definition. We can't (and don't) specify it as the time it appears into a feed. It's the time the author published it, not the time it showed up in the feed (or downstream). > However, when the feed is of something else, these two times are no > longer necessarily the same. That's true of all feeds. CDNs, caches, and aggregators break that idea it's the time it shows. > Consider for example the feed that YouTube publishes of a user's > "Favorite Videos". In this feed, the entry-level atom:published tells us > when the entry was added as a favorite, *not* when the entry (i.e. the > video) was posted to YouTube by its author. That's down to how Youtube models a "favorite". If they create a new Entry for the favorite (you can tell by the IDs) it makes sense relative to their domain. Although that will be annoying for people following other people's favourites if people are tagging the same vid. If not, it's a data bug. > However, Digg's equivalent "Favorite Articles" feed (which is actually > RSS 2.0, but let's pretend it's Atom for the sake of this discussion) > has the published time set to the time the article was originally > submitted to Digg, *not* when it was added as a favorite. That's down to how Digg models a "favorite". Again this depends on the site's internal domain model. In their case, it looks like they don't exposed favorites as distinct entities. > My question, then, is which of these approaches is correct. They both are. > The Atom > specification is (intentionally?) very vague about what this time > represents, but it does refer to "the entry". It's open to > interpretation whether "the entry" means "the actual atom:entry element > in this feed" or "the item that this atom:entry element describes". It's to do (imo) with whether a favorite is an identifiable object, as pointed out above. That is, it's about what the resource identifies as indicated in this case by atom:id, not the representation of the resource as indicated by the atom:feed's XML. > Do you think it would be vaulable to have an optional extra element that > indicates when the entry appeared in the current feed/collection? (This > would effectively make YouTube wrong and Digg right.) It would be more helpful (again imo), for Youtube: if when a favourite is modeled as an Entry in its own right, atom:link or other metadata was used to reference what was favourited (Atom's thread extension is good food for thought on that). for Digg: if the favourite is modelled as an echo of the what was favourited, they used atom:source. > (I'm told that Digg couldn't actually implement this element even if it > was specified, because they don't retain a timestamp on their "favorite" > relationships, but at least it would reduce the ambiguity about what > atom:published represents.) That's what I mean by this being specific to internal domain models. There's no correct way to represent a favourite atm. Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 15:13:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0CB3A69A6 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:13:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.900, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nP2rZC2OYq1o for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5473A689E for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DN5alV022007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:05:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DN5aoc022006; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:05:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DN5YOk022000 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:05:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (83-70-224-89-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.224.89]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3DCDD36B for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:05:34 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <496D1E3B.10403@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:05:31 +0000 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> In-Reply-To: <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > * Martin Atkins [2009-01-13 19:05]: >> What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading >> Extensions) >> >> The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we >> need for this use-case. > > No, the `in-reply-to` element. It doesn’t sound like the link > relation was I thinking of at first glance but the definitions > are congruent. Even my proposal for how it could be usefully > displayed is essentially that of a thread. It’s kind of > embarrassing that I didn’t notice immediately. > > (Nearly no one supports 4685, of course. But then neither do they > support the hypothetical link relation.) I've used threading for both comments and capturing private messaging. I agree it can work here, but a qualifier similar to rel would be better to cover off Martin's bookmark use case. Bill From marasullivanmercator@amicitia-reizen.nl Tue Jan 13 15:48:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766FC3A6932 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:48:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_SK=1.35, HOST_EQ_SK=0.555, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GGfzvEADXQuO for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-dyn19.78-99-19.t-com.sk (adsl-dyn19.78-99-19.t-com.sk [78.99.19.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 838613A684D for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:48:11 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 93298 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090113234812.838613A684D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:48:11 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 19:15:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0785B28C199 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:15:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qzRV9nBNs11D for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB4028C19F for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0E37xnP032373 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:07:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0E37xud032372; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:07:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.149]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0E37llm032353 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:07:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 9so87244qwj.28 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:07:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OzDEuTakhob1MRkKPKh6jhWIvfI2kS5zaIgA4VOwTAY=; b=V0CiU4QYEb09uca8P80Q9zq3mWXUuqBKvZlxbkDeR7LURhjxCEE3305CzHhG6WqVza +xXh83mU9+GlrtpZ1iCm+NkJ/S2l9YGPWywwOyuTookG21i7EqS8lCvSbM/Mcy6StcRP zz4eA2kjYdhtL/h0UJVIK8LjCjR3QReyd+ev0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qPYRURgcZVDEBdRyOg6qdITSzAzwY6OwYrqybxfkEI/jfzxezqGA1PARdK4HSfgcY/ VRaotN7djHCj2piM117BxcbHH+EZoRQE2c5F9gSrUksRFKkc5rk9QLrq268Lv0ldO/Zq WSQ3WalvFGbzS3kfgs88/JYlAyjwYxIAd23xM= Received: by 10.215.67.20 with SMTP id u20mr27829078qak.231.1231902467174; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:07:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.2.100? (c-98-224-93-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5sm10046594qwh.46.2009.01.13.19.07.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:07:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496D5705.6050609@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:07:49 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill de hOra CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496C127C.7030909@geckotribe.com> <496D1DB5.4000606@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <496D1DB5.4000606@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: As the author of 4685 I'm a bit biased but I'm not sure I see the need for the new rel attribute. in-reply-to would seem to cover the need well enough. - James Bill de hOra wrote: > > Antone Roundy wrote: >> >> Martin Atkins wrote: >>> I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional >>> metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather >>> than the item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that >>> matter) is different in this case. >> >> That makes sense to me. > > Me too. > > The atom:source element isn't designed to capture that idea, so we're > looking at something along the lines of thr:in-reply-to or a new rel > attribute. > > Bill > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 19:27:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F0328C1A0 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:27:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.627 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.627 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.350, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kS918D-4HhdM for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599AD28C199 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0E3JVqx032856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:19:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0E3JVaa032855; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:19:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f21.google.com (mail-bw0-f21.google.com [209.85.218.21]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0E3JJim032848 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:19:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pjkeane@gmail.com) Received: by bwz14 with SMTP id 14so1042972bwz.10 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:19:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=skSt2cfmRhoxSCI2WfXOwQUj+zJKMf9Xm5HG2ndg5S0=; b=jrvMPeXD+SRJ/BxfdmXlYtjEJqyG1/kZrhE/eq7KpwitltO0rlIN7nAg8LxRm6fPuP /YEJ6Cf1z1psC8wtdyuh3qOgJMuhKOtBD60JuAxp03z9P4bWlTTeTbsVqUnR+i5tp4js SsF7eLr4Id+A/qxLmlHBNJFEZdwgspUVm97tw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=EwtHk59VTGSzEh54WOH+Gzmev9hvhnYAuT+BlJFHoyWgWgDryVjEcg8SHPFENeyq9d 37ifrp9p2ypVwI0SriYyB795ni93a5UdPY3FjI1aj6jut7YPUtZg7ak5R3KzS/WCDsjN Z0rWf7fLMQMfkkR7/30uBSO2ulHPRninZZ/KU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.247.14 with SMTP id z14mr11629295mur.70.1231903158528; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:19:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <496D1E3B.10403@dehora.net> References: <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D1E3B.10403@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:19:18 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b4e9d63ce4a3c464 Message-ID: <8158ad750901131919i4d58d8b3pa958c034b40b3786@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" From: Peter Keane To: Bill de hOra Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Bill de hOra wrote: > > Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: >> >> * Martin Atkins [2009-01-13 19:05]: >>> >>> What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading >>> Extensions) >>> >>> The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we >>> need for this use-case. >> >> No, the `in-reply-to` element. It doesn't sound like the link >> relation was I thinking of at first glance but the definitions >> are congruent. Even my proposal for how it could be usefully >> displayed is essentially that of a thread. It's kind of >> embarrassing that I didn't notice immediately. >> >> (Nearly no one supports 4685, of course. But then neither do they >> support the hypothetical link relation.) > > I've used threading for both comments and capturing private messaging. I > agree it can work here, but a qualifier similar to rel would be better to > cover off Martin's bookmark use case. It's the same issue that's come up again and again about expressing hierarchy in Atom. Proposed rel values include "detail"/"master", "up"/"down", "parent"/"child", or using the threading extension (the closest thing we have right now for hierarchy). None of those fit just exactly right for this use case, and I think a new rel value (esp. for pointing from child to parent a la 'in-reply-to') would be extremely useful. I'd hope it could be somewhat generic, though (and paired with a parent-to-children rel a la "replies" as well) so that it might serve these other uses. As Aristotle suggested, it simply needs to be more specific/strong than "related." --peter keane > > Bill > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 13 20:11:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CCD3A6834 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:11:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TTLcbKRgH3Pa for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC263A67FB for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0E45DHV034673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:05:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0E45CUL034672; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:05:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.247]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0E452e5034664 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:05:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mart@degeneration.co.uk) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so412430rvf.34 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.33.19 with SMTP id l19mr15623324rvj.294.1231905901494; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.0.3? (75-101-29-19.dsl.static.sonic.net [75.101.29.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g31sm79174157rvb.4.2009.01.13.20.05.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:05:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496D646B.9030703@degeneration.co.uk> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:04:59 -0800 From: Martin Atkins User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496C127C.7030909@geckotribe.com> <496D1DB5.4000606@dehora.net> <496D5705.6050609@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <496D5705.6050609@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James M Snell wrote: > > As the author of 4685 I'm a bit biased but I'm not sure I see the need > for the new rel attribute. in-reply-to would seem to cover the need well > enough. > So, just to complete the thought, the proposal is to use in-reply-to to represent a bookmark? In other words, we'd be modelling a bookmark as a response to an entry. Presumably this would look something like this: Mart tag:ma.gnolia.com,2005:Ma.gnolia-slokowuyird 2009-01-11T22:02:04-08:00 2009-01-11T22:02:04-08:00 I-D Guidelines: Guidelines to Authors of Internet-Drafts [elided] How is a consumer intended to determine that the above is a "bookmark" (i.e. annotated pointer) rather than a reply in the traditional sense? From owler@accountancysolutions.ie Wed Jan 14 00:48:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB713A6B2C for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:48:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.744 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.744 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id InNfU9NKOeec for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from amateurmatch.com (unknown [212.73.132.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 28D593A681C for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:48:35 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 42370 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090114084836.28D593A681C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:48:35 -0800 (PST)
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From nington@amebacctv.com Wed Jan 14 03:53:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691383A6842 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:53:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LHn1mrrU30Dg for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-96-232-164-63.nycmny.fios.verizon.net (pool-96-232-164-63.nycmny.fios.verizon.net [96.232.164.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E8D123A6A19 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:53:38 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 49491 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090114115338.E8D123A6A19@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:53:38 -0800 (PST)
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From karen@algongroup.com Wed Jan 14 05:17:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1FB28C103 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 05:17:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -42.814 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-42.814 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sClByNfolHQV for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 05:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp089210184160.dsl.hol.gr (ppp089210184160.dsl.hol.gr [89.210.184.160]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DCBC53A6B52 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 05:17:08 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Survey results From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090114131708.DCBC53A6B52@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 05:17:08 -0800 (PST)
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From mississaugan@alliance-francaise.ca Wed Jan 14 13:39:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D2728C1C4 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:39:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -39.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-39.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S+odd2UKROp5 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpc4-hart4-0-0-cust396.midd.cable.ntl.com (cpc4-hart4-0-0-cust396.midd.cable.ntl.com [81.104.145.141]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 179E528C1E4 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:39:36 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090114213937.179E528C1E4@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:39:36 -0800 (PST)
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From muellervveeetzcag@agrinvest.gr Wed Jan 14 17:22:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AAEB3A6A76 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:22:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -42.968 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-42.968 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jAOyANTsoz1A for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from host47-173-static.28-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it (host47-173-static.28-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it [79.28.173.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 432823A6963 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:22:11 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Order status 49900 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090115012213.432823A6963@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:22:11 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 15 02:34:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7C23A68D8 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.175 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.175 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.590, BAYES_40=-0.185, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id smrseMcHwa6s for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015A83A67E6 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FAP1jp038000 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:25:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FAP1MI037999; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:25:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s5.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s5.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.141]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FAOokG037979 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:25:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.14]) by bay0-omc2-s5.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:24:50 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:24:50 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.30.251 by BAY141-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:24:49 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.30.251] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:26:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jan 2009 10:24:50.0244 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F5D0040:01C976FB] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Martin Atkins wrote: > If I'm understanding you correctly, then in the common case of a polling > aggregator the order is skewed unless polling is done very often. > > Sorting by published time allows items from multiple feeds to be > intermingled into a single list in the correct order. Feed readers typically poll every hour. If I receive 20 new posts in that hour, I couldn't care less what exact order I read them in - I just want to know that those are the most recent 20 posts. I know that for some people, some kind of date order (what you refer to as the "correct" order) is important. So if article A has a publish date, or update date, or whatever that is 10 minutes before article B, then it's vitally important that message A gets read before message B, or is it message B before message A? I just don't get why it's so important. I bet if you asked, most users couldn't even tell you if they were ordering by published date or updated date. They just know that how they're doing it is correct; and vitally important. Right up until the time that it's inconvenient to have things sorted that way; and then it's the date that is wrong, not the ordering. The thing is, if you know that the actual ordering doesn't matter, and it's more a matter of perception than anything else, it's not that difficult to come up with an algorithm that gives the perception of sorting by date without actually doing so. Regards James From keke.mohammadian@aisystems.net.au Thu Jan 15 02:38:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420ED3A65A5 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:38:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RQPDsEgTp4yA for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from 214-107-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net (214-107-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net [91.124.107.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 960353A6407 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:38:39 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 29468 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080530-0, 30.05.2008), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20090115103840.960353A6407@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:38:39 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 15 06:30:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A83228C19D for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:30:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.220, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F1HR3Q-xsgC3 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573AE28C196 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FEN9ab052648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); 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Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:22:58 -0800 From: Dare Obasanjo To: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:22:54 -0800 Subject: RE: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" Thread-Topic: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" Thread-Index: Acl2/T0dAS+suWWXSJiDlMH1Nw4mowAHzYBQ Message-ID: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: SSdtIGNvbmZ1c2VkLiBXaGF0IGFib3V0IGRlc2t0b3AgZmVlZCByZWFkZXJzIHRoYXQgYXJlbid0 IHJ1bm5pbmcgc28gY2FuJ3QgcG9sbCBldmVyeSBob3VyPyBIb3cgd291bGQgdGhleSBzaG93IHNl bnNpYmxlIHJlc3VsdHMgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIHVzZXIgZmlyZXMgdGhlbSB1cCBmb3IgdGhlIGZpcnN0 IHRpbWUgdGhhdCB3ZWVrIG9yIG1vbnRoLg0KDQpBbnl3YXksIHRoaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBzZWVt cyBtb290IGJlY2F1c2UgbW9zdCBmZWVkIHJlYWRpbmcgYXBwcyB0b2RheSBzb3J0IGJ5IHB1Ymxp c2hlZCBkYXRlIHRvZGF5IHNvIGl0IHNlZW1zIHdlaXJkIHRvIGJlIGRpc2N1c3NpbmcgYnJlYWtp bmcgYmVoYXZpb3IgZXhwZWN0ZWQgYnkgaHVuZHJlZHMgb2YgZGVwbG95ZWQgYXBwcy4NCg0KLS0N ClRISU5HUyBUTyBETyBJRiBJIEJFQ09NRSBBTiBFVklMIE9WRVJMT1JEICMxMzkNCklmIEknbSBz aXR0aW5nIGluIG15IGNhbXAsIGhlYXIgYSB0d2lnIHNuYXAsIHN0YXJ0IHRvIGludmVzdGlnYXRl LCB0aGVuIGVuY291bnRlciBhIHNtYWxsIHdvb2RsYW5kIGNyZWF0dXJlLCBJIHdpbGwgc2VuZCBv dXQgc29tZSBzY291dHMgYW55d2F5IGp1c3QgdG8gYmUgb24gdGhlIHNhZmUgc2lkZS4gKElmIHRo ZXkgZGlzYXBwZWFyIGludG8gdGhlIGZvbGlhZ2UsIEkgd2lsbCBub3Qgc2VuZCBvdXQgYW5vdGhl ciBwYXRyb2w7IEkgd2lsbCBicmVhayBvdXQgdGhlIG5hcGFsbS4pDQoNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5h bCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IG93bmVyLWF0b20tc3ludGF4QG1haWwuaW1jLm9yZyBbbWFp bHRvOm93bmVyLWF0b20tc3ludGF4QG1haWwuaW1jLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIEphbWVzIEhv bGRlcm5lc3MNClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBKYW51YXJ5IDE1LCAyMDA5IDI6MjcgQU0NClRvOiBB dG9tIFN5bnRheA0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFRoZSBkaXN0aW5jdGlvbiBiZXR3ZWVuICJ0aW1lIHRo aXMgZW50cnkgd2FzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCIgYW5kInRpbWUgdGhpcyBlbnRyeSB3YXMgYWRkZWQgdG8g dGhpcyBmZWVkIg0KDQoNCk1hcnRpbiBBdGtpbnMgd3JvdGU6DQo+IElmIEknbSB1bmRlcnN0YW5k aW5nIHlvdSBjb3JyZWN0bHksIHRoZW4gaW4gdGhlIGNvbW1vbiBjYXNlIG9mIGEgcG9sbGluZw0K PiBhZ2dyZWdhdG9yIHRoZSBvcmRlciBpcyBza2V3ZWQgdW5sZXNzIHBvbGxpbmcgaXMgZG9uZSB2 ZXJ5IG9mdGVuLg0KPg0KPiBTb3J0aW5nIGJ5IHB1Ymxpc2hlZCB0aW1lIGFsbG93cyBpdGVtcyBm cm9tIG11bHRpcGxlIGZlZWRzIHRvIGJlDQo+IGludGVybWluZ2xlZCBpbnRvIGEgc2luZ2xlIGxp c3QgaW4gdGhlIGNvcnJlY3Qgb3JkZXIuDQoNCkZlZWQgcmVhZGVycyB0eXBpY2FsbHkgcG9sbCBl dmVyeSBob3VyLiBJZiBJIHJlY2VpdmUgMjAgbmV3IHBvc3RzIGluIHRoYXQNCmhvdXIsIEkgY291 bGRuJ3QgY2FyZSBsZXNzIHdoYXQgZXhhY3Qgb3JkZXIgSSByZWFkIHRoZW0gaW4gLSBJIGp1c3Qg d2FudCB0bw0Ka25vdyB0aGF0IHRob3NlIGFyZSB0aGUgbW9zdCByZWNlbnQgMjAgcG9zdHMuDQoN Ckkga25vdyB0aGF0IGZvciBzb21lIHBlb3BsZSwgc29tZSBraW5kIG9mIGRhdGUgb3JkZXIgKHdo YXQgeW91IHJlZmVyIHRvIGFzDQp0aGUgImNvcnJlY3QiIG9yZGVyKSBpcyBpbXBvcnRhbnQuIFNv IGlmIGFydGljbGUgQSBoYXMgYSBwdWJsaXNoIGRhdGUsIG9yDQp1cGRhdGUgZGF0ZSwgb3Igd2hh dGV2ZXIgdGhhdCBpcyAxMCBtaW51dGVzIGJlZm9yZSBhcnRpY2xlIEIsIHRoZW4gaXQncw0Kdml0 YWxseSBpbXBvcnRhbnQgdGhhdCBtZXNzYWdlIEEgZ2V0cyByZWFkIGJlZm9yZSBtZXNzYWdlIEIs IG9yIGlzIGl0DQptZXNzYWdlIEIgYmVmb3JlIG1lc3NhZ2UgQT8gSSBqdXN0IGRvbid0IGdldCB3 aHkgaXQncyBzbyBpbXBvcnRhbnQuDQoNCkkgYmV0IGlmIHlvdSBhc2tlZCwgbW9zdCB1c2VycyBj b3VsZG4ndCBldmVuIHRlbGwgeW91IGlmIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBvcmRlcmluZw0KYnkgcHVibGlzaGVk IGRhdGUgb3IgdXBkYXRlZCBkYXRlLiBUaGV5IGp1c3Qga25vdyB0aGF0IGhvdyB0aGV5J3JlIGRv aW5nIGl0DQppcyBjb3JyZWN0OyBhbmQgdml0YWxseSBpbXBvcnRhbnQuIFJpZ2h0IHVwIHVudGls IHRoZSB0aW1lIHRoYXQgaXQncw0KaW5jb252ZW5pZW50IHRvIGhhdmUgdGhpbmdzIHNvcnRlZCB0 aGF0IHdheTsgYW5kIHRoZW4gaXQncyB0aGUgZGF0ZSB0aGF0IGlzDQp3cm9uZywgbm90IHRoZSBv cmRlcmluZy4NCg0KVGhlIHRoaW5nIGlzLCBpZiB5b3Uga25vdyB0aGF0IHRoZSBhY3R1YWwgb3Jk ZXJpbmcgZG9lc24ndCBtYXR0ZXIsIGFuZCBpdCdzDQptb3JlIGEgbWF0dGVyIG9mIHBlcmNlcHRp b24gdGhhbiBhbnl0aGluZyBlbHNlLCBpdCdzIG5vdCB0aGF0IGRpZmZpY3VsdCB0bw0KY29tZSB1 cCB3aXRoIGFuIGFsZ29yaXRobSB0aGF0IGdpdmVzIHRoZSBwZXJjZXB0aW9uIG9mIHNvcnRpbmcg YnkgZGF0ZQ0Kd2l0aG91dCBhY3R1YWxseSBkb2luZyBzby4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcw0KSmFtZXMNCg0K DQo= From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 15 08:10:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837443A68EF for ; 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(c-98-224-93-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 28sm147068wfg.48.2009.01.15.08.01.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:01:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <496F5DF0.1010308@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:01:52 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Dare Obasanjo wrote: > I'm confused. What about desktop feed readers that aren't running so can't poll every hour? How would they show sensible results after the user fires them up for the first time that week or month. > > Anyway, this discussion seems moot because most feed reading apps today sort by published date today so it seems weird to be discussing breaking behavior expected by hundreds of deployed apps. > > ... especially given that they're not likely to change no matter what is discussed here... - James > -- > THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139 > If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then encounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just to be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James Holderness > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:27 AM > To: Atom Syntax > Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" > > > Martin Atkins wrote: > >> If I'm understanding you correctly, then in the common case of a polling >> aggregator the order is skewed unless polling is done very often. >> >> Sorting by published time allows items from multiple feeds to be >> intermingled into a single list in the correct order. >> > > Feed readers typically poll every hour. If I receive 20 new posts in that > hour, I couldn't care less what exact order I read them in - I just want to > know that those are the most recent 20 posts. > > I know that for some people, some kind of date order (what you refer to as > the "correct" order) is important. So if article A has a publish date, or > update date, or whatever that is 10 minutes before article B, then it's > vitally important that message A gets read before message B, or is it > message B before message A? I just don't get why it's so important. > > I bet if you asked, most users couldn't even tell you if they were ordering > by published date or updated date. They just know that how they're doing it > is correct; and vitally important. Right up until the time that it's > inconvenient to have things sorted that way; and then it's the date that is > wrong, not the ordering. > > The thing is, if you know that the actual ordering doesn't matter, and it's > more a matter of perception than anything else, it's not that difficult to > come up with an algorithm that gives the perception of sorting by date > without actually doing so. > > Regards > James > > > From o@4dorogi.ru Thu Jan 15 11:51:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7529F3A6919 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:51:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.064 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.064 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DYk21BHgFqC0 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-19-251-3.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-19-251-3.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.19.251.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 350703A68D5 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:51:42 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 01251 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090115195144.350703A68D5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:51:42 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 15 12:21:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8B73A6A07 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:21:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.239, BAYES_20=-0.74, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dCG1vF2RHwCt for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F1F3A69F6 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FKD6fg071346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:13:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FKD6JI071345; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:13:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s34.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s34.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.234]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FKCtKP071334 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:13:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.19]) by bay0-omc3-s34.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:12:55 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:12:55 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.7.234 by BAY141-DAV9.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:12:53 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.7.234] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:12:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jan 2009 20:12:55.0497 (UTC) FILETIME=[A7035390:01C9774D] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Dare Obasanjo wrote: > I'm confused. What about desktop feed readers that aren't running so can't > poll every hour? How would they show sensible results after the user fires > them up for the first time that week or month. That depends what you mean by sensible. It's certainly possible to approximate an ordering by published date without strictly enforcing that order across all entries. > Anyway, this discussion seems moot because most feed reading apps today > sort by published date today so it seems weird to be discussing breaking > behavior expected by hundreds of deployed apps. I wasn't suggesting that applications should change the way they do things. I'm merely curious why so many people seem to think that ordering by published date is the one and only "correct" way to sort feed entries. Also, I'm curious what makes you think that most feed reading apps today do sort by published date. Based on past research, I was of the opinion that it was more like 25-30%. I'm assuming you have more recent research that has reached a different conclusion? Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 15 16:14:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0052E3A67FC for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:14:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDX4ivhTXY7F for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C1F3A63EC for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G074IW079926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:07:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0G0743o079925; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:07:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server515.appriver.com (server515g.exghost.com [72.32.253.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G06sRR079909 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:07:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: by server515.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 5.2.7) with PIPE id 118484039; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:06:58 -0600 Received: from FE4.exchange.rackspace.com ([72.32.49.28] verified) by server515.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 118484006 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:06:55 -0600 Received: from mail pickup service by FE4.exchange.rackspace.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:06:48 -0600 Received: from smtp.sixapart.com ([204.9.180.32]) by FE4.exchange.rackspace.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:37:11 -0600 Received: from psmtp.com ([10.17.2.51]) by smtp.sixapart.com (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n0FKbBUC003777 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:37:11 -0800 Received: from source ([192.245.12.227]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7mx208.postini.com ([64.18.6.14]) with SMTP; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:37:11 EST Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FKD6fg071346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:13:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FKD6JI071345; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:13:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s34.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s34.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.234]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FKCtKP071334 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:13:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.19]) by bay0-omc3-s34.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:12:55 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:12:55 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.7.234 by BAY141-DAV9.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:12:53 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.7.234] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:12:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jan 2009 20:12:55.0497 (UTC) FILETIME=[A7035390:01C9774D] List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-pstn-neptune: 0/0/0.00/0 X-pstn-levels: (S:40.41701/99.90000 CV:99.9000 M:97.0282 C:98.6951 ) X-pstn-settings: 4 (1.5000:1.5000) s cv gt3 gt2 gt1 m c X-pstn-addresses: from [db-null] X-Policy: GLOBAL - UNKNOWN X-Primary: j4_james@hotmail.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note: FCH-SI:0/SG:0 X-GBUdb-Analysis: 1, 204.9.180.32, Ugly c=0.682338 p=-0.0439414 Source Normal X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-6222-c X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: ->->UNITED STATES->UNITED STATES->->LOCAL->UNITED STATES->PRIVATE->UNITED STATES->->UNITED STATES->UNITED STATES X-Note-Sending-IP: 72.32.49.28 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: X-Note-WHTLIST: j4_james@hotmail.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: 93 94 95 96 100 101 169 X-Note: Mail Class: VALID Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Dare Obasanjo wrote: > I'm confused. What about desktop feed readers that aren't running so can't > poll every hour? How would they show sensible results after the user fires > them up for the first time that week or month. That depends what you mean by sensible. It's certainly possible to approximate an ordering by published date without strictly enforcing that order across all entries. > Anyway, this discussion seems moot because most feed reading apps today > sort by published date today so it seems weird to be discussing breaking > behavior expected by hundreds of deployed apps. I wasn't suggesting that applications should change the way they do things. I'm merely curious why so many people seem to think that ordering by published date is the one and only "correct" way to sort feed entries. Also, I'm curious what makes you think that most feed reading apps today do sort by published date. Based on past research, I was of the opinion that it was more like 25-30%. I'm assuming you have more recent research that has reached a different conclusion? Regards James From kendrickd@agrx.com Thu Jan 15 17:52:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07F83A67AB for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:52:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.839 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.839 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, FH_HOST_EQ_DYNAMICIP=2.177, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QWCzpQF-rUDt for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from 61.Red-83-41-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net (61.Red-83-41-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net [83.41.73.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0440F3A68C2 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:52:48 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 47545 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090116015249.0440F3A68C2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:52:48 -0800 (PST)
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From lmoede@advanstar.com Thu Jan 15 18:49:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEAC3A67AB for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:49:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y5EB7SSieuwj for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3mnet.net (unknown [201.80.119.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C688B3A6783 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:49:04 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Message 95053 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 090115-0, 15/01/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested Message-Id: <20090116024905.C688B3A6783@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:49:04 -0800 (PST)
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From kmastrocovonn@aitronics.com Fri Jan 16 01:07:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF643A69B4 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wgxt13CDIf8q for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from alverno.edu (unknown [92.112.92.100]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2264D3A6808 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:06:57 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 36171 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090116090658.2264D3A6808@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:06:57 -0800 (PST)
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From a.c.m.asseldonk@rn.rabobank.nl Fri Jan 16 01:39:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72873A696C; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:39:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -84.338 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-84.338 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0Yvz72RQYLC; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from c-76-120-77-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net (c-76-120-77-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net [76.120.77.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 458AD3A677C; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:39:40 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: 59.142.182.74 by smtp.76.120.77.65; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 14:33:22 +0500 Message-ID: Subject: Cartier watch for a New Year Gift! Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:39:22 -0500 From: "Dante Downs" To: "Yolanda Hoyt" Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Yolanda, How about buying yourself a two Omega watches the same day? It's not impossible, mostly when you can get them for a couple hundred bucks http://davisyph.narod.ru From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 16 03:12:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87E028C20D for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:12:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.515 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.515 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-Kzd750RabD for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E42A3A6864 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0GAxAn0012771 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:59:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0GAxAAi012770; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:59:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0GAwxFW012752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:59:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id n0GAwwlc023863; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:58:58 -0600 Received: (from apache@localhost) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id n0GAwwZF023861; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:58:58 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: mail1.webfaction.com: apache set sender to sh@defuze.org using -f Received: from 195.101.247.164 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user platom_sylvain) by mail1.webfaction.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:58:58 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <60022.195.101.247.164.1232103538.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com> In-Reply-To: References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:58:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" From: "Sylvain Hellegouarch" To: "James Holderness" Cc: "Atom Syntax" Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.8-6.el3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > > > Dare Obasanjo wrote: >> I'm confused. What about desktop feed readers that aren't running so >> can't >> poll every hour? How would they show sensible results after the user >> fires >> them up for the first time that week or month. > > That depends what you mean by sensible. It's certainly possible to > approximate an ordering by published date without strictly enforcing that > order across all entries. > >> Anyway, this discussion seems moot because most feed reading apps today >> sort by published date today so it seems weird to be discussing breaking >> behavior expected by hundreds of deployed apps. > > I wasn't suggesting that applications should change the way they do > things. > I'm merely curious why so many people seem to think that ordering by > published date is the one and only "correct" way to sort feed entries. > I wonder the same. I think being aware one can sort a feed based on various parameters is quite important. I don't think RFC 4287 specifies it has to be ordered in a certain way, RFC 5023 IIRC specifies that collection partial list ought to be ordered by app:edited element but that's it. One point that I believe is quite important to remember is that Atom, though mainly used in a blog-type contexts, is much more generic than that and we should remember it may well be used in all sorts of other contexts where human are not involved or not by using a common feed reader. - Sylvain -- Sylvain Hellegouarch http://www.defuze.org From jls@ace.ocn.ne.jp Fri Jan 16 04:50:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8553A6824 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:50:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.893 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.893 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRmrgYjse2ak for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from alliancestaffingsolutions.com (unknown [62.231.162.253]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 138083A6817 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:50:17 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Pfizer Admin From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 090115-0, 15.01.2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20090116125018.138083A6817@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:50:17 -0800 (PST)
January 16, 2009 | "SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer Company!




Contact: Email Administrator, Pfizer World Headquarters 057 E. 42nd Street New York, NY 69146
® 2001-2009 Pfizer Inc. All rights reserved!
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From jfxbafwpr@agora.pl Fri Jan 16 18:23:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0133A6A75 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:23:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.703 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=2.077, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I4Leg2tDVfVL for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 84-47-21-190.adsl.terra.cl (84-47-21-190.adsl.terra.cl [190.21.47.84]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3FC443A6A0D for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:23:38 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: SPECIAL OFFERS From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117022340.3FC443A6A0D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:23:38 -0800 (PST)
January 16, 2009 | "SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer Company!




Contact: Email Administrator, Pfizer World Headquarters 228 E. 42nd Street New York, NY 42542
® 2001-2009 Pfizer Inc. All rights reserved!
Pfizer is a licensee of the TRUSTe Privacy Program!, click here.

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From lopedphysicking@alliancemarine.com Fri Jan 16 18:59:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D003A6A18 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:59:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ym105GK1gHfm for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from host81-151-29-131.range81-151.btcentralplus.com (host81-151-29-131.range81-151.btcentralplus.com [81.151.29.131]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CA84E3A68FE for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:59:01 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Q&A Doctor Anita Graves From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117025902.CA84E3A68FE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:59:01 -0800 (PST)
January 16, 2009 | "SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer Company!




Contact: Email Administrator, Pfizer World Headquarters 639 E. 42nd Street New York, NY 40922
® 2001-2009 Pfizer Inc. All rights reserved!
Pfizer is a licensee of the TRUSTe Privacy Program!, click here.

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From news@amico.on.ca Fri Jan 16 19:07:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6253A69DD for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:07:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.876 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.876 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EtYCdppLal0G for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from aaiworldmarket.com (200.220.134.2.nipcable.com [200.220.134.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F9C53A68FE for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:07:23 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Q&A Doctor Anita Graves From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117030724.5F9C53A68FE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:07:23 -0800 (PST)
January 16, 2009 | "SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer Company!




Contact: Email Administrator, Pfizer World Headquarters 068 E. 42nd Street New York, NY 26479
® 2001-2009 Pfizer Inc. All rights reserved!
Pfizer is a licensee of the TRUSTe Privacy Program!, click here.

» Help  »Advertise  »Terms of Service  »Privacy Policy
From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 16 19:15:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3027D3A69DD for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:15:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.788, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9RWZcT-8rEma for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62523A689F for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0H34MOJ057216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:04:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0H34Mp3057215; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:04:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0H34ATL057206 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:04:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (83-70-234-2-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.234.2]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E95FDA830 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:04:09 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <49714AA7.6030503@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:04:07 +0000 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" References: <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D1E3B.10403@dehora.net> <8158ad750901131919i4d58d8b3pa958c034b40b3786@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8158ad750901131919i4d58d8b3pa958c034b40b3786@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Peter Keane wrote: > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Bill de hOra wrote: >> I've used threading for both comments and capturing private messaging. I >> agree it can work here, but a qualifier similar to rel would be better to >> cover off Martin's bookmark use case. > > It's the same issue that's come up again and again about expressing > hierarchy in Atom. I don't know if hierarchy matters here (really). I am fairly sure the message I send to you looks different in my outbox to the one you see in your inbox. Are they the same/different messages? No idea. Bill From krissiev@advlearn.com Fri Jan 16 22:15:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A67E13A698D for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:15:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zaeW6CbgR2yl for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip-212-59-24-31.static.b4net.lt (ip-212-59-24-31.static.b4net.lt [212.59.24.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0329A3A684B for ; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:15:50 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Q&A Doctor Anita Graves From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117061552.0329A3A684B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:15:50 -0800 (PST)
January 16, 2009 | "SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer Company!




Contact: Email Administrator, Pfizer World Headquarters 189 E. 42nd Street New York, NY 62686
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From levyn@alixdavies.com Sat Jan 17 01:08:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DD33A6B2D for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:08:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_RFC_DSN=1.495, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ln3DUBManj7s for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from promtc.donbass.com (promtc.donbass.com [195.184.211.6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 429CE3A6843 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:08:33 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Pfizer Admin From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117090834.429CE3A6843@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:08:33 -0800 (PST)
January 16, 2009 | "SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer Company!




Contact: Email Administrator, Pfizer World Headquarters 580 E. 42nd Street New York, NY 28613
® 2001-2009 Pfizer Inc. All rights reserved!
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From jharlow@amcore.com Sat Jan 17 01:45:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6213A6832 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:45:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.752 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.752 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VLe8U6Zeph1y for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ahealthybody.net (unknown [89.43.237.136]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F2653A6B32 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:45:53 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: SPECIAL OFFERS From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117094554.1F2653A6B32@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:45:53 -0800 (PST)
January 16, 2009 | "SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer Company!




Contact: Email Administrator, Pfizer World Headquarters 733 E. 42nd Street New York, NY 04255
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From nici@1in1.de Sat Jan 17 01:54:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0B228C146 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:54:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nUTPeqFOuew4 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:54:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rt-dkz-19ce6.adsl.wanadoo.nl (rt-dkz-19ce6.adsl.wanadoo.nl [81.69.186.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0588F28C138 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:54:00 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 03120 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117095401.0588F28C138@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:54:00 -0800 (PST)
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From lidiainscripciones@amigosnet.net Sat Jan 17 05:10:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7708D3A6859 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:10:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -44.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-44.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJgNfBQ-3IAj for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 187209.uninet.lv (187209.uninet.lv [77.38.187.209]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 228F43A6923 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:10:12 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Order status 72813 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117131013.228F43A6923@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:10:12 -0800 (PST)
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From lsfhnnvms@ains-inc.com Sat Jan 17 07:26:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC7B3A690E for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:26:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=2.077, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HkpFbQ5jW26y for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from host86-167-4-228.range86-167.btcentralplus.com (host86-167-4-228.range86-167.btcentralplus.com [86.167.4.228]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 64F863A6B1A for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:26:02 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: SPECIAL OFFERS From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117152603.64F863A6B1A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:26:02 -0800 (PST)
January 16, 2009 | "SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer Company!




Contact: Email Administrator, Pfizer World Headquarters 230 E. 42nd Street New York, NY 72831
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 17 08:40:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7D63A6B1A for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:40:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3MOpFTEGhSMn for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2148A3A6B22 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:40:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0HGTNmC093230 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:29:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0HGTNhK093229; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:29:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.245]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0HGTClC093218 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:29:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pjkeane@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so2437394rvf.34 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:29:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V4OD1wnkguszg62/l5PSrNuHvBZBofocIY2bjhdHM0c=; b=nroi/5qvWSn2iUFHTWy3yiCfgsqd4yUOxYvtB3NmkyKTkoT+RHe3f6cT/6dPXxkAXP 3+HND+M4LlJdXKazQSzAVF9mJgt7IZtiwYHoLtDe+v0yK0DXcLb86VUVCuSQGn6mPpdB 0Kk06tFg+G6/vHKYV9M+H1t9Jx3eFy+W4PhYY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=k+duQCGYZA4ZvfjVDp5qsNs7i31Bwxb3dCuTEM82Qt+ubiS82t9e5xvLgVhHtaIPt6 rwl5gWTsj8nXIq6VxaMi4dJPyX/J7pI8sk2/pIJd2GIqcPj26B9LzSe0b85vOWEKD9xm SJOO0JxHrYpS1vyMupMZS1n1OBOELwXLUHMU0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.207.8 with SMTP id e8mr121680wfg.88.1232209751876; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:29:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <49714AA7.6030503@dehora.net> References: <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D1E3B.10403@dehora.net> <8158ad750901131919i4d58d8b3pa958c034b40b3786@mail.gmail.com> <49714AA7.6030503@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:29:11 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b2770d6ab175525f Message-ID: <8158ad750901170829u7809d171uec84244d312e6480@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" From: Peter Keane To: Bill de hOra Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Bill de hOra wrote: > > Peter Keane wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Bill de hOra wrote: >>> >>> I've used threading for both comments and capturing private messaging. I >>> agree it can work here, but a qualifier similar to rel would be better to >>> cover off Martin's bookmark use case. >> >> It's the same issue that's come up again and again about expressing >> hierarchy in Atom. > > I don't know if hierarchy matters here (really). I am fairly sure the > message I send to you looks different in my outbox to the one you see in > your inbox. Are they the same/different messages? No idea. > I suppose what I'd like to see is a link@rel that says "without which I would have no meaning/reason to exist" and another that says "this is related, by I can stand on my own". The latter is (I think) adequately captured by link@rel="related", while for expressing the former, we only have thr:in-reply-to. Bookmarking certainly requires the former (i.e., the bookmark has no meaning w/o the thing being bookmarked). --peter > Bill > > From lucast@aeptec.com Sat Jan 17 12:06:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC8F3A6A80 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:06:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -30.858 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-30.858 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZwFdpHo-6GLi for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089076009129.chello.pl (chello089076009129.chello.pl [89.76.9.129]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CC7DB3A6A66 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:06:34 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 01812 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117200634.CC7DB3A6A66@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:06:34 -0800 (PST)
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From majordomo@abacus-info.de Sat Jan 17 12:20:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FA728C12C for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:20:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.061 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.061 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.649, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TIffPSu1mmM6 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-10-11-137.smace701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-10-11-137.smace701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.10.11.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B96028C123 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:20:19 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Order status 13257 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117202024.7B96028C123@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:20:19 -0800 (PST)
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From m_g._williams@aep.com Sat Jan 17 13:05:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A375E3A6A46 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:05:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -31.839 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-31.839 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xyre2sO5pX8i for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from amhaire.com (unknown [94.178.252.78]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 39A3E3A67AC for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:05:19 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 83009 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090117210521.39A3E3A67AC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:05:19 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 17 16:49:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB6B3A6885 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:49:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dV2bSgUoFXDU for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:49:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217623A686A for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0I0eJVQ009208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:40:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0I0eIIc009207; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:40:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spaceymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com (lax-green-bigip-5.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0I0e8fP009198 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:40:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (222.031.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au [211.26.138.222]) by spaceymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF55194E35 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:40:07 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:40:09 +1100 Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8158ad750901170829u7809d171uec84244d312e6480@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 18/1/09 3:29 AM, "Peter Keane" wrote: > I suppose what I'd like to see is a link@rel that says "without which > I would have no meaning/reason to exist" and another that says "this > is related, by I can stand on my own". >=20 > The latter is (I think) adequately captured by link@rel=3D"related", > while for expressing the former, we only have thr:in-reply-to. > Bookmarking certainly requires the former (i.e., the bookmark has no > meaning w/o the thing being bookmarked). link@rel=3D"referent" ref=B7er=B7ent (n) - the thing or idea that a symbol, word, or phrase denotes e. From kywdjjhvr@al-williams.com Sat Jan 17 19:07:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EC628C155 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:07:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -20.962 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-20.962 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WomLA7foHMiD for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from amazingformula.com (unknown [200.121.211.10]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7156828C125 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:07:49 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Your order 06395 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090118030750.7156828C125@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:07:49 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 18 10:39:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33CF03A6A31 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:39:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.814 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.814 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.637, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id swBBKXcMR2Xc for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8773A67A8 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0IIUamO084107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:30:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0IIUagG084106; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:30:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.169]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0IIUOYn084084 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:30:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pjkeane@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so2671377wfc.28 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:30:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mAC6mELkyvkzRPJidTCWWjCJ10dzd96AWhaYkKt0wlg=; b=tpInGYH0F+JWrJOv+QkkTiJdIcrhepIfUJh89iKIpi8Kl0YDBsAxN9giNn/Fu3/J6B mZGyPVh/lhDyom+U5v9WCGuBcE3fehsZBoVsToXtNpBRO8pKfoMj7XBSeONRroiLL1Es jauatm4j0yPnAr2ekWu1HhlWLYs3Rt1Eye3ts= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=U77VM49YlTg4rvU2j92Yy5fjAlxr6Pm0M5OFG87KVe9n0BDOfAb/xnThF30jhtldZ4 VDUm4aKp9TX8/SwAQdjBq2LnMqmbI+GS7rVSpZ4bevOU4k0s0luL2jRlL0cwMh/nEgCO wOTNHiQ028/xKWbGSiZ8fsGPb9LQbFjlLn/uk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.177.7 with SMTP id z7mr2007850wfe.281.1232303423927; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:30:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <496D5705.6050609@gmail.com> References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496C127C.7030909@geckotribe.com> <496D1DB5.4000606@dehora.net> <496D5705.6050609@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 12:30:23 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: c005e39194e08fe9 Message-ID: <8158ad750901181030i3aac08a4ocee446f05552f9d5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" From: Peter Keane To: James M Snell Cc: Bill de hOra , Atom Syntax Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:07 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > As the author of 4685 I'm a bit biased but I'm not sure I see the need for > the new rel attribute. in-reply-to would seem to cover the need well enough. > Just a thought in favor of in-reply-to:. The "source" attribute could be quite useful. Per RFC 4685: """ The "source" attribute MAY be used to specify the IRI [RFC3987] of an Atom Feed or Entry Document containing an atom:entry with an atom:id value equal to the value of the "ref" attribute. """ Seems to me that a client might be aware of a finite set of "sources": YouTube, Digg, etc., and thus would be able to decide which in-reply-to elements it would like to process. --peter > - James > > Bill de hOra wrote: >> >> Antone Roundy wrote: >>> >>> Martin Atkins wrote: >>>> >>>> I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional >>>> metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather than the >>>> item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that matter) is different >>>> in this case. >>> >>> That makes sense to me. >> >> Me too. >> >> The atom:source element isn't designed to capture that idea, so we're >> looking at something along the lines of thr:in-reply-to or a new rel >> attribute. >> >> Bill >> >> > > From karis@adinet.com.uy Sun Jan 18 14:15:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4663A6B56 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:15:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.717 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MLYI0x7JkRN9 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-24-234-85.ctame704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-24-234-85.ctame704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.24.234.85]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CACF3A67BD for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:14:58 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Survey results From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090118221459.6CACF3A67BD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:14:58 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 18 14:24:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD6628C114 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:24:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QMFQHiKcE1E0 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C75D28C101 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0IMFdBO099698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:15:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0IMFdxY099697; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:15:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spaceymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com (lax-green-bigip-5.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0IMFSLb099684 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:15:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (eth5126.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net [150.101.116.5]) by spaceymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E18194E76 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:15:26 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:15:30 +1100 Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed" From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8158ad750901181030i3aac08a4ocee446f05552f9d5@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On 19/1/09 5:30 AM, "Peter Keane" wrote: > Seems to me that a client might be aware of a finite set of "sources": > YouTube, Digg, etc., and thus would be able to decide which > in-reply-to elements it would like to process. however, any given atom:entry MAY have only ONE atom:source element. e. From mvqjqmzgtqil@aitsoft.com Mon Jan 19 07:30:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292D128C15C for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:30:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -64.773 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-64.773 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NzLRPtYZBEdY for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pppoe-tverineko2.tver.ru (pppoe-tverineko2.tver.ru [62.113.49.58]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B80D3A6774 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:30:33 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Next: Getting the best results From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090119153034.6B80D3A6774@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:30:33 -0800 (PST)
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Sincerely, Mr Jefferson From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 20 00:13:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC6E3A6A6A for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 00:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E1Y1hb0jxVX2 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 00:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575193A697E for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 00:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0K81gHh095405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:01:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0K81gUu095404; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:01:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0K81ULp095384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:01:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bortzmeyer@nic.fr) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 279EB94BB2; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:01:27 +0100 (CET) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F32F315766F; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:11:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:11:04 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: James Holderness Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed" Message-ID: <20090120071104.GA23190@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.10 (intrepid) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 08:12:49PM -0000, James Holderness wrote a message of 25 lines which said: > Also, I'm curious what makes you think that most feed reading apps > today do sort by published date. Based on past research, I was of > the opinion that it was more like 25-30%. Until a few months ago, the program which produced the Atom feed for my blog did *not* sort the entries (the order was random), relying on the feed reader to do so. All the local feed readers I tested sorted by published date, as well as many of the big online feed readers. I found only two exceptions, two online readers, Netvibes and the iGoogle gadget (not Google Reader, which started to do the sorting one year ago). It was quite inconvenient for the users and I received several bug reports. They were forwarded to these organizations, which never replied. [In the end, I gave in and decided, in the name of the robustness principle, to do the sorting myself.] So, I would not call this "research" but "anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that sorting by is the norm, not sorting the exception". From lrjohnson@aarp.org Tue Jan 20 07:23:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB463A69F9 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:23:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.244 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.244 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HELO_EQ_NE_JP=1.244, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cYmNEzC8Zk8z for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ai.tnc.ne.jp (unknown [189.79.32.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 283C33A69AB for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:23:44 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: BRANDKEYWORD, Ltd From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090120152345.283C33A69AB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:23:44 -0800 (PST)
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From sunitsunit@arorafinancial.com Tue Jan 20 09:11:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CEFD3A6B3C; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:11:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -82.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ikd8hQDUJEuB; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from 212-95-32-105.internetserviceteam.com (15.68.202-77.rev.gaoland.net [77.202.68.15]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 223F33A6915; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:11:22 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: 16.116.103.206 by smtp.212.95.32.105; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:06:56 -0100 Message-ID: Subject: Cartier reps better than originals Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:13:56 -0500 From: "Terrance Samuels" To: "Denise Snow" Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Denise, Looking for a Longines? How about getting two, one for you and one for your spouse? http://washingtonvjc.yoyohost.com From jenny@amena.com Tue Jan 20 15:30:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5F33A6A8A for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:30:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PKd89rP3M-v8 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from 173-18-43-117.client.mchsi.com (173-18-43-117.client.mchsi.com [173.18.43.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DEF63A6A33 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:30:23 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Administrator From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090120233024.6DEF63A6A33@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:30:23 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 20 16:28:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1FC23A6822 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:28:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.262, BAYES_40=-0.185, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Bcx7EjSXOGf for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2D53A67B6 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0L0KGAu044465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:20:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0L0KGNC044464; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:20:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s13.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s13.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.149]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0L0K6Tt044458 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:20:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.22]) by bay0-omc2-s13.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:20:06 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:20:05 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 87.82.16.181 by BAY141-DAV12.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:20:01 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [87.82.16.181] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <20090120071104.GA23190@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published"and"time this entry was added to this feed" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:19:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jan 2009 00:20:05.0951 (UTC) FILETIME=[02B7C4F0:01C97B5E] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > All the local feed readers I tested sorted by published date, as well > as many of the big online feed readers. I found only two exceptions, > two online readers, Netvibes and the iGoogle gadget (not Google Reader, > which started to do the sorting one year ago). Interesting. I've tested Google Reader a lot more recently than a year ago and I was convinced that they were ordering entries as they appeared in the feed. Although, to be honest, I don't think the answer is necessarily as simple as that, and I would like to have researched this in more detail if I'd had the time. For example, a feed reader might sort individual feeds differently to aggregated views (assuming they support such things). They may sort an initial set of entries in a subscription differently to how they order a new entry added to an existing subscription. > It was quite inconvenient for the users and I received several bug > reports. They were forwarded to these organizations, which never > replied. Also interesting. Given that there's no requirement that feed readers sort entries by the published date, what made you think they'd want to work around a problem in your feed that you could easily fix yourself? If you can try and imagine, for just a moment, that sorting by published date might not be the one and only correct way to order feed entries, you'll begin to realise how ridiculous your bug report must seem to someone that doesn't share your views. > So, I would not call this "research" but "anecdotal evidence seems to > indicate that sorting by is the norm, not sorting the > exception". I'll accept for now that the most popular choice of ordering is uncertain. Without more concrete evidence, though, I would think it unwise for a feed publisher to rely on any particular sort order. Regards James From nicolette@agisweb.nl Tue Jan 20 23:25:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA42728C0D7 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:25:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -33.154 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-33.154 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CfpVTsJlNTvo for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from athedsl-176373.home.otenet.gr (athedsl-176373.home.otenet.gr [85.74.8.147]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 700EE3A6A9B for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:25:26 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: PayPal - Email Handling Opinion Needed From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090121072527.700EE3A6A9B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:25:26 -0800 (PST)
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From moulhem@allied-brokers.com Wed Jan 21 09:07:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FF528C132 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:07:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -31.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-31.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNA=1.231, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LMWdSKYjgLRC for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from amdocs.com (unknown [213.186.195.189]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DC5143A6839 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:07:38 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Windows Live Team From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090121170738.DC5143A6839@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:07:38 -0800 (PST)

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From abraham@nuedge.com Thu Jan 22 17:22:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC4D3A67DF; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:22:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -39.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-39.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, RELAY_IS_222=2.179, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 91VIKrZo5-To; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 212-95-32-105.internetserviceteam.com (unknown [222.124.220.202]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0780B3A694A; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:21:58 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: 204.174.50.58 by smtp.212.95.32.105; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:19:48 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: You can save 80% on Bvlgari Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:23:48 -0500 From: "Vito Hickman" To: "Ray Ewing" Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ray, New Year is the time to get Omega watch, and the only place to get top notch watches that look and perform exactly like the originals is http://www.tallfames.com The best news is that in January (2009) you can buy two watches and get an extra 15% off your purchase! http://www.tallfames.com Our Omega watches have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original. Sincerely, Mr Ewing From mongoliasouphanouvong@ace-north.org.uk Thu Jan 22 17:41:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3BB3A69A6 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:41:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -33.245 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-33.245 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.943, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLF5VoxtYy8s for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from alphasan.com (unknown [201.255.172.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CA5113A68C8 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:41:27 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: PayPal - Email Handling Opinion Needed From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090123014128.CA5113A68C8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:41:27 -0800 (PST)
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